The man from tomorrow
We must admit we haven’t been keeping fully up to date with our Thickest Politician In Scotland rankings recently, mainly because they’ve been so deluged with submissions that we can barely scratch the backlog.
This month alone, for example, we’ve seen Murdo Fraser try to blame the SNP, Labour and the Lib Dems for his party’s shambolic Brexit fiasco, millionaire Tory landowner Sir Edward Mountain sneering that the SNP’s Ian Blackford is too rich because he has a Range Rover, James Kelly of Labour humiliating himself (again) over the budget and boneheaded Lib Dem barrel-scraping Christine Jardine mocking someone for having an inferior intellect while she failed to even nearly spell the word “supporters”.
And that’s before we even get to the Tory MSP who stood up at this afternoon’s FMQs and suggested that lowering the drink-drive limit had somehow led to an increase in road traffic accidents, presumably in the belief that it would actually be better and safer if everyone bombing up and down Scotland’s motorways had had a few beers first.
But pretenders are one thing. There’s still an undisputed king.
And this isn’t even his best work today:
What actually happened in the Supreme Court this morning was summed up concisely by an alert reader, so we’ll let them spell it out:
As even the Scottish media was forced to admit with varying degrees of grudging reluctance, Holyrood’s EU continuity bill was (with one minor exception), entirely legal and within the Parliament’s powers at the time when it was voted through.
However, the UK government booted it to the court so that they could hastily change the rules and render it illegal before it received royal assent.
As was noted by the professor of public law at Strathclyde University, as she delivered a stinging slap-down to fluidly-principled Tory constitution spokesoaf Adam Tomkins on the subject:
But the hapless Greene could at least claim he was merely parroting his superiors on that count. This one was all his own:
Because as some alert readers may have observed, the period 2019-2023 is in what philosophers call “the future”. It hasn’t happened yet, so there are no “records” of it. Which means that if it wasn’t already amazingly stupid to compare forecasts from two entirely different organisations – one of which has a truly epic record of being wrong about nearly everything – doing it several years in advance certainly was.
We must admit, while we had a very low estimate of Jamie Greene’s IQ before now, we had at least credited him with the basic understanding of the linear nature of time that almost all living organisms are born with. We apologise for our error.
We’ll recalibrate our measuring equipment accordingly, but for now we’re delighted to announce his return to the top of the table where he rightfully belongs.
Where do we go now with the Continuity fiasco?
They literally shafted Scotland and will take any powers they want from our party?
I’m fucking raging.
Mike Russel has stated this is the first time ‘ever’ that this has happened. what is our recourse in this mater. McWhirter tweeted a section of the ruling where it states plainly that our ‘devolved’ status is not anything like a ‘federal’ set up as claimed by how now Brown vow et al?
How do we fight this utter craven sleakit pieces of shit when they just bold with no shame changed the rules so that retrospectively our CB has now no lawful effect in terms of how we deal with Brexit?
Well, he gets my vote. What an arsehole.
Well, who would’ve thunk it.
That really is jaw-droppingly stupid.
And to think we’ve just offered him a raise. What party is he from?
Ofcourse, BBC in Scotland will run with the Unionist pish and retract later after SNP complains. But damage done. It’s how they operate every single fucking time.
“Hey Tonto – just heard the Scottish Continuity Bill has been passed by Scots Parliament. You delay it becoming law by challenging it in the Supreme Court while I make up some new rules for our own Bill to head it off at the pass.”
So now you know, Scotland – Devolution is Dead. So here’s what it comes down to – Tory Brexit Britain or Indy Scotland with Europe. Take yer pick.
So we got rid of the Offensive behaviour at Football Act and guess what, offensive behaviour has increased.
They tell us that the number of accidents has increased – ok, how many more drivers are there on the roads in the last 4 years and what is the percentage comparison of accidents per driver numbers.
If that has increased then that is surely a better measure than just the actual number of accidents.
An increase in the number of accidents is not good, but how many of those accidents are caused by alcohol – I read recently that there is a big increase in the number of drivers on drugs.
Please give us balanced statistics BBC.
Although I firmly agree that Greene and a whole host of diddies like him at Holyrood who have no business whatsoever being in politics and are London prompted decriers of the SNP.
It’s the SC ruling and the British governments machinations surrounding it, that feels like a bloody great kick in the stomach.
Oh, the curse of “mitigation”. There will always be a queue of BritNat fools (real or false) deflecting blame for economic mismanagement from where it truly lies: London.
I’m glad to see Nicola finally making that reality explicit.
Ahhh we are okay though, we have 800,000 English people living in Scotland who will now vote for Scottish independence
This is the action that Wales pulled out of, content to be trampled over?
And is that THE Simon Pia calling for IndyRef 2?
Fruitcakes. The SC ruling is a bit like discovering that the person you wed is not only a control freak, but they have inserted a clause in your marriage contract that permits them to have absolute power over everything you do. They control your bank account, what friends you have and who can visit – or even stay overnight. Anything you do, they take credit for – and the property you inherited from your parents, they’ve sold and squandered the money on their own vain projects. You’ve been screwed totally – and not in the way you anticipated.
When preservation and self respect become paramount, the relationship is over. That is where we are now.
Scottish parliament has been confirmed today as England’s devolved northern talking shop, purely there to thwart Scottish Independence. If the SNP truly want Independence then ?
If the SNP really want Independence then ?
Mark Russell says
Mark was never a hope of the slightest respect from the ultra devious Westminster government, not for Scotland,they are lower than a snakes belly.
However, the SC made themselves available to allow them to get away with it.
What a palaver trying to get BofS to give me Scottish notes to replace the foreign ones from the cash machine. Apparently they’re to meet demand for them! Aye, right. This fiasco will escalate, normalise the English notes, withdraw the Scots notes…
[…] Wings Over Scotland The man from tomorrow We must admit we haven’t been keeping fully up to date with our Thickest Politician […]
Well in the slight chance anyone thought that Westminster would not cheat us, you can see it now, and in anyway they can. Do not discount anything from these people.
We need to go.
Well now it is once again up to our ACTUALLY ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND SG to expose and highlight the absolute belittling,denigration and legal manipulation by the brutish nationalist government , which took place to sabotage a perfectly legal document to PROTECT the rights of the Scottish people , a sabotage deliberately enacted with the complicity of the supposed queen of Scots who gave it the royal seal of approval
As Breeks has said repeatedly and has now been proven right our supposed sovereignty means NOTHING to these bastirts when it can so easily be cast aside
This is just another reason and example to involve the ECJ to expose the deliberate subjugation of a country and it’s citizens
Nicola get the tackety boots on and GRFITT
Jamie Greene’s got a De Lorean
Yep as above – BBC TV just said “… UK Supreme Court … rules that part of … Continuity Bill … are unconstitutional”.
Absolutely no context of the background, or the full story, or whatever.
Breaking news non members of the SNP say the SNP don’t want Independence “””shockeroony””” more later from other non supporters of the SNP who will read minds of people they don’t know and predict the future through the prism of Adam Tomkins eye
Spookeyyy!
Ken MacIntosh and his legal adviser were wrong to brand the Continuity Bill incompetent This made it impossible for Royal Assent to be granted.
The delay made it possible for Westminster to alter the law to make the Continuity Bill retrospectively wrong.
Holyrood has to now challenge the legality of this process because Westminster’s Bill should not have been granted Royal Assent while the Scottish Bill was deliberately placed in limbo.
Ken MacIntosh and his legal adviser should be sacked for perverting the course of justice. IMO
Remember before the SC ruling, when it was pointed out that if the SC made a political ruling (with WM) then it would be guilty of subjugating Scots Law and Setting aside the Devolution (Scotland) Act?
Well, they kinda did but didn’t.
They tried to fudge it.
And by doing so, they made our case for us, namely that WM actively believe they have the right to ILLEGALLY subjugate Scots Law on a whim.
Just because the SC says they are correct, DOES NOT actually make them correct.
Not if they ignore Scottish Sovereignty.
Not if they ride roughshod over the Treaty of Union
Not if they believe Scots Law can simply be subjugated using English law, especially from what is supposed to be the UNITED KINGDOM parliament.
Subjugation is subjugation, there is not an acceptable way to achieve subjugation.
Huge mistake by SC today and proof they are not a serious place of testing law.
K1 – “Where do we go now”,
We fight, we take the unionist’s full on at every opportunity.
They shout out lies – We roar out the truth.
We don’t stop, we take every lie they tell and discredit it, we discredit their unionist media, they have most of the traditional media but we own the ‘net’ they can’t hide their lies there.
Stop referring to them as Scottish political parties their ‘London controlled parties’ (London-parties),the last few days certainly confirm that.
Their loyalty is to their Westminster based bosses, they don’t deserve the word Scottish in their title so don’t give them the privilege.
Remember when the unionists started to call independence – SEPERATION , well lets give the bastards a taste of their own medicine.
Their is NO Scottish labour/tory/LibDem/Ukip political parties – just LONDON PARTIES.
A schoolfriend’s son works for him as a researcher. He’s in town this weekend and usually asks about the political situation in Scotland. If I can reply before the usual Britnats and Brexit supporting middle class Ferry mob butt in ahead of me as they tend to do, it might be interesting to ask him how his boy likes the job.
@capella.
I would suggest The Queen has overstepped her legal authority here, and her actions can be seen as declaring herself Sovereign over Scots Sovereignty.
………..
My views on it.
So, the UKSC makes a part political decision, as expected, and by doing so has really made a huge mistake in its desperation to find a fudged answer to help out WM.
This was a Win-win either way it went, and remains the case now, perhaps even more so by this desperate attempt to fudge it.
The SC says that the CB was fully competent in Scots Law and within the Competence of the Devolution (Scotland) Act.
Thats a clear win for Scotsgov.
This race to Royal Assent to claim dibs on competence/deny competence, opens up a new can of constitutional worms not there before this ruling.
Apart from the obvious observation that, by WM gaining RA first, then WM is deemed to have struck down a previously competent Scots Law aspect, looks pretty obviously SUBJUGATION of said Scots Law.
And that Subjugation, has been aided and abetted by the Queen herself, by her giving a discriminatory and preferential RA to the WM Bill, which contained a section of legislation which very specifically, DID NOT HAVE Scottish Legislative Consent.
By giving the WM Bill Royal Assent in such circumstances, then surely the Queen has announced herself as sovereign over Scots Law and by definition, over Scots People, which is obviously a stripping of our Legal Sovereignty by the Crown.
There is a strong case for saying that the Queen has ended the Treaty of Union here, never mind WM.
Royal Assent should never have been given to the WM Bill while Scottish Legislative Consent was both, not given nor, while the issue was under judicial review in the courts.
So, A competent expression of Scots Law, SUBJUGATED by ‘sleekit’ WM actions. WIN
The Queen’s SUBJUGATION of Scottish Claim of Rights. WIN
Brexiting Sovereign Scots, Clear SUBJUGATION of Sovereign Will (62% remain) of legally Sovereign Scots to remain in the EU – WIN
Now, consider a plan (Breeks plan) for staking claim to Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty, add the above things to that argument, and we have a compelling case to dissolve the Union.
Add all that to the idea of a politically protective dissolution by Majority at Holyrood, followed by a plebiscite to affirm it, to satisfy the Sovereignty of Scots People issue, and we have 2 concrete courses of action, to facillitate dissolution of the Union on OUR TERMS.
Bring it on.
RepublicofScotland @ 5.25
Look at it this way….
Scotland doesn’t have two Governments because it’s quite clear that the Queen is only prepared to sign Laws for One.
Only one Government can reliably write Laws for Scotland and get them signed every time.
And her Courts have just confirmed it.
The Queen is apparently obliged to sign whatever Laws the Westminster Government put in front of her, but she wouldn’t for ours…. no… OUR laws have to get nodded through by Westminster first!!!
A Westminster who claimed that they would not block them, that the Devolution competences were ours to do with what we would.
A matter for the Scottish Government is how they phrase it.
Well now we know Westminster won’t stick to minding it’s own business!
Westminster and the Crown are minding ours
What use is Devolution to us now?
Up with this we will not put!!
The same applies to the Federalism pish…. Scotland “in Theory “ would get equal representation with however many different parts of the rUK they invented. Sounds just the same as Scottish MPs getting an equal vote with all the English MPs put together,tae me and who is still signing Laws?
Anyhoo….
We still have our existing Scottish Law and if I’m reading the Advocate General right they cannot be touched ( had the CB got Royal Assent it would have been Scots Law)…
Well I’ve another suggestion….. the one thing lacking from the Declaration of Arbroath was the Legal steps to take to Fire a Monarch who won’t defend Scotland… Mibbi we should take a look at writing Legislation along those lines!!
Jist Sayin..
Terence Callachan at 5.34
There he goes again. Terence you obviously can’t read because you have been told several times that there is an estimated 450,000 English people in Scotland. I’ll write that out longhand.
Four hundred and fifty thousand estimate (it may be a little higher as they are as still moving north – and who’d blame them).
It has also been polled that around 30% of them are YES supporters and I would think that is probably climbing.
Westminster has decided that Scottish voters are supine, they can do what they want. At this point it’s hard to disagree, can’t imagine any other country taking this and many actually gleeful that they are. They see themselves as equals, whereas the Westminster MP’s just see them as serfs. It would be amusing if it wasn’t so tragic.
Mundell is the typical of this supine Scot, willing to bend to the will of another countries legislators and proud of it. A peerage rates higher in his ambitions that his country.
Even if there is a referendum called now it looks like they could just refer it to the SC then change the law to make it illegal. This is where we are, held hostage by a hostile parliament.
I am seriously amused by some of the comments on here tonight.
Did anyone seriously expect any other sort of ruling? I don’t imagine the SNP expected anything other than an attempt to frustate Scotland’s interest and prove to us all that devolution is not what is good for us.
Our enemey has just again strengthened the case for independence.
If the UK Gov can go back in time and change the law so that the Scots Gov’s legislation is void, time may not be as linear as we think.
The Westminster illegally and secretly took £Billions from Scotland. Thatcher etc. Deregulated the world banking system and cut collateral from 25% to 13%. Privatised utilities. Demutualised the Building Societies owned by their members. Used Scottish resources and revenues to build up London S/E. The illegal wars have cost £Trns.
Scotland has to pay loan repayments on debt not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Scotland pays more for fuel,and energy despite being in surplus and nearer the source. Tax evasion costs Scotland £Billions. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy. Scotland pays more for Trident and Defence.
The Tory/unionists are malicious liars. Sanctionig and starving people. Wasting £Billions on Hickley Point and HS2. Brexit is costing £Billions and will ruin the Scottish economy.
Independence can’t come soon enough.
10% of 5.2Million is 1/2million+. 9% is less than 500,000. Take off under 16/18 years olds. Some vote YES, some vote NO (2% of voters?) some do not vote. Not enough to swing the vote.
No, he’s not the brightest is he?
On the SC? Not unexpected, but then UK gov lost the moral case the nanosecond it took a nation partner to court to force its will upon them.
And it is the will of the Westminster government and parliament, NOT the choice of the Scottish parliament or population.
Just so we’re ALL CRYSTAL CLEAR on the nature of devolution, the precioussss union and partnership. Devolution is power retained, not ceded. There is no union and there is no partnership. There absolutely IS a power grab and you’ve just had something taken from you without your permission.
link to news.gov.scot
The long and the short though, is that WE CAN and WE MUST opt for self government. To give the fate of Scotland’s population over to the greed driven monsters inhabiting that howf on the Thames is NOT acceptable. They’ve been given chance after chance to act like friends and partners. We’ve received nothing but contempt, deceit and naked theft in return. That parliament is no friend to anyone.
That clear enough? Are you YES yet?
Jets calm. When the time is right we will act. Beware the Yoons who ask us to follow the Westminster line with regard to what Independence should be.
@Dave McEwan Hill
It’s not the case for independence that is the problem, the case has been clear since 2016. It’s whether the Scots will take it and with WM able to retrospectively change the rules how do we get there.
Just remember folks that the people of Scotland have more power than Westminster if and when they choose to exercise that power.
They have the power to end the very existence of the UK by ticking a box.
They have the power to remove all power from Westminster by ticking a box.
They just need to tick a box.
K1 @ 5.17
We go to the source….
The Declaration of Arbroath is NOT a reserved matter.
We need to demand that any Law that the Scottish Government put before the Monarch is signed.
If we have TWO Governments (allegedly)
If we are equal partners in a Treaty agreement.
Then equality requires parallel rules.
The Monarch should not be able to refuse our Parliament any more than she can Westminster.
To ensure this…
We need to insert the controls necessary into the Declaration of Arbroath to actually replace the Monarch for one who will sign Scotland’s Laws…
It’s her Only fucking job!!!!
geeo says:
“Huge mistake by SC today and proof they are not a serious place of testing law.”
On the contrary, the SC delivered a concise verdict on the evidence before them. That is what the legislation allows. The real culprits are the politicians and legal drafters at Westminster, the devious and duplicitous lawyers and civil servants who construct Bills at the government’s behest, to give the impression that black is white and night is day. The SC ruling laid bare the nature of the UK government’s intent; give the people shite and tell them it’s caviar. Bought and sold for fool’s gold.
Let the truth empower you. For that, we should be grateful for the SC’s ruling today.
@geeo 6:17pm
An interesting summary and I am sure there some holes in your assertions but can’t say I can see any.
If the SNP are going to defend Scotlands interests as they are elected to do, not even mentioning independence, they need to challenge this systematic assault on our sovereignty. Its the bare minimum as a reasonable response.
We need to fight back so people will see clearly and exactly where we stand under Englands Governance. People need to be shown just how much we are a colony and not a partner.
Or we can just bend over and take whatever we will surely deserve.
Simple straightforward things get people’s attentions. Like when the SNP MPs walked out.
It’s not that large numbers for folks are thick (some clearly are) it’s just that they have lives to get on with – jobs, kids, food, housing, clothes … Xmas.
Much of the debate is getting into the realms of ‘how many angels on a pin head’ stuff. I fear much of the constitutional debate just goes in one ear and out the other. I’m not saying it isn’t crucially important, it is, I just don’t think it is going to set most voters’ heather on fire.
We need some big straightforward issues to hammer home and focus minds on how disfunctional this so called Union now is.
A blatant attack on our parliament and its powers, without all the fine detail, might be the sort of issue needed.
The fact that unilaterally cancelling Brexit and NOT a disastrous no deal should now be the default of the negotiated WA fails, is perhaps another.
And the clearest of all – Scotland has a better, safer, clearer plan – Indy.
Hat’s off to the Scottish legal team and petitioners who have used the Brexit shambles to progress a motion through the ECJ that forced the UK government to respond through the Supreme Court on legislation that has resonance in a number of matters, Scotland’s constitutional relationship in the UK being just one.
It’s not only Scottish Labour that can be described as a “branch office” now. Holyrood has just discovered it’s real master.
Time to assert otherwise?
Alex’s Shows on. A voice of reason.
If people in Scotland had not voted Tory. The Tories could not be doing this to Scotland or causing the UK shambles.
why did the bbc report, on the increase of road traffic accidents, relate it to the reduction of drink-drive alcohol limit.
surely, they should only be comparing the amount of convictions for dui before & after the limit was reduced
not all car accidents are drink related
typical sleekit snpbad pish
CH4 have interviewed Heseltine and an excerpt is on Twitter.
It is really quite moving to see this man reflect on what has happened to his party. He appears close to tears, expressing sadness for the generations to come, genuinely remorseful.
What is happening to the people of England is a tragedy – many of us are becoming very frustrated that we’re still yoked to WM, but at least we have a rock-solid case for cutting the binds and going our own way. The majority of our neighbours, relatives and friends in England do not and we must remember that whenever anyone comes onto this site to paint them as ‘enemies’.
Mike Russell on SKY explaining sleekit ‘if you think sleekit think Michael Gove priceless 🙂
you would think that the entirety of the Scottish legal system would be jumping up and down with rage today. They have all just been fired, of no further use, finished out of a job. Anything that they do can now be overturned by English law. Who the hell would employ these people now, best get yourself an English legal person better chance of winning a case.
Jings! For a second there I thought Mike Russell has commented on WOS. Good posts though, Mark
I see we have another one. No, the Scottish legal system did not lose today, the ruling was that at the time, bar Section 17, the EU Continuity Bill was perfectly legal – a win for our own Lord Advocate Wolffe. There were only parts that became not in the law later on because of the machinations of UK politicians, not the law.
@Mark Russell
When i assert the SC is not a serious place to test law, i am very clear in that, by the fact, that unless you examine EVERY ASPECT of law in relation to an issue, your assessment will fail.
The SC CB case was judged outwith the context of most importance, namely our legal statuses as LEGALLY EQUAL union partners, and the fact that WM is NOT the Parliament of England.
If you want to take it down that road, DEVOLUTION is a clear breach of the Act and Treaties of Union as, according to the SC today, it (SC) made Scotland and Scots Law AND Scots Sovereignty, subservient to the only other EQUAL union partner, the Kingdom of England, despite the Kingdom of England NOT having a legally functioning parliament, and has not had such a feature in 311 years.
Just because WM ACTS like the Parliament of England, telling Scots what we can and can do, does ABSOLUTELY NOT make it so.
The SC ruled today as if WM was the English Parliament, by ignoring the legal reality, SCOTLAND IS A LEGALLY EQUAL union partner.
So yes, i maintain absolutely, that the SC is in no way a serious place to test law.
Something to remember is that by its devious changes made in teh House of Lords at the committee stage, Westminsteer didn’t just kick the SNP and Greens in the teeth, they kicked Scottish Labour and Scottish LibDems in the balls, something which will rankle for those who care about the Union.
The Tories can’t help themselves when it comes to destroying their precious one ring to rule them all and in the Brexit darkness, bind them “Union”. To the Cracks of Doom, I say. Toot sweet.
Since we are tearing through threads today, i shall stick this on here.
This is for everyone to enjoy, but specifically for the attention of those who constantly scream for the SNP to “do sumthin” about media lies.
Watch this, which i rewound on my telly earlier and then recorded (hence poorish sound) on my phone.
I stuck it on facebook so i could link to it on here. (Sharing away nicely on FB into the few hundreds now..nearly 800 in fact).
After you watch this, perhaps someone could tell us how many times they have watched this exchange repeated on Sky News today ?
Genuine question, as i have been out all day since)
Enjoy.
link to facebook.com
galamcennalath @ 6.45
I’ve a very simple concept…
How can the Scottish Loyalists now support a Queen who will hold back Scottish Law so that England’s Law can wreak it.
I mean some of that was human rights law?
If they are Loyal to her, don’t they think she should be Loyal to Scotland and sign Scots Law?
She has let them down badly, she picked a side and it was against them!
Huh! Well whate3ver you can do I can do too. So repeating this from the other thread, if I can get it in in time before the nect thread starts:
““Lib Dems @tavishscott welcomes the Supreme Court judgement as strengthening the case for a federal UK. He adds: ‘The difference between the situation “before” and “after” passage of the UK Act gives weight to the view that the UK reduced the powers of the Scottish Parliament.’” (my bold)
link to twitter.com
LibDems as well as Labour voted WITH the SNP and Greens for the Continuity Bill, leaving Tomkins and his cohort of far right and anti-devolution Tories, out in the cold where they belong. Bye now. Don’t forget to wear strings of Precious Onions round your necks to keep the werewolves away.
geeo:
There is no legal equivalence with England or the UK. The latter is the supreme legal authority – that is the essence of the SC ruling. Scotland (and all the other ‘nations’ are subservient, including England). The SC ruling simply provided clarity.
we are now offficially a colonized country
the scottish government should now recall
all our mps from the houses of parliament and dissolve the union as of right now.
i cant take anymore of this shit now ive had enough
someones got to do something there is a lot of people like me
right now who feel despondent.
i would rather be dead and bow to those bastards ive had two strokes and to listen to this shit every day is soul destroying ffs scottish government do something right now anything get off your fucikgn knees and grow a pair ,
seriously pissed off long time lurker.
As far as the Queen is concerned, a point made by some legal bod I can’t remember who I read so manby today, is that a Westminster Bill can’t be challenged in court, whereas a Scottish Bill can. So the Queen has no choice BUT to give Royal Assent to a Westminster Bill, once her Privy Council which includes Sturgeno, Salmond still I think, Blackford and maybe even still Robertson, give it the once over.
The Queen is basically speaking, a red herring, sorry peeps.
Thanks for making me laugh loudly on this otherwise typically infuriating day, Stu.
That linear nature of time bit had me howling.
Surely no-one is surprised by the Brit court decision.
I await with interest what course of action the SG will now pursue.
How are the Brits getting on with their put down of the EU?
LOL.
“Fluidly principled” – lovely skelp, Rev.
Decision as expected. Is this our “on your marks” moment?
Current list of Privy Council members – all those 4 are indeed members:
link to privycouncil.independent.gov.uk
BASTARDS every one of the British Nationalist Bastards…
That is all…
What is truly shocking is that a complete diddy like Greene is an MSP. Just another thing that needs to change at Holyrood – too many party placemen that are just complete numpties that I would not let wash my car never mind legislate for Scotland. The vast majority of Tories are all list MSPs – jobs for life for people who cannot win an election. Most of the Tories at Holyrood know they ain’t that smart but you also have a small number of smug idiots who do not realise they are smart either – Tompkins/Fraser – immediately come to mind.
Jobs for life for people representing a party from a foreign country.
Only Independence can start to rid us of these total idiots.
Ian Brotherhood @ 18:56,
Amen to that, Ian.
Those who seek to divide us are very plainly working against us.
The campaign for Independence will begin in January
I just got an email
So, Rev Stu, everybody.
Wheres the campaign to get God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols the Christmas #1 slot?
yesindyref2 @ 19:27,
If Tavish Scott believes that this legally-confirmed power grab “strengthens the case for federalism”, a federalism that is never ever going to be granted voluntarily by a power-greedy absolutist London, he is as cretinous as Jamie Greene.
“It’s not that large numbers for folks are thick (some clearly are) it’s just that they have lives to get on with – jobs, kids, food, housing, clothes … Xmas.”
True, galamcennalath. Lots of such folk think politics is for the politicians and they will know what to do. We know that’s complete crapola and that it’s the people who should be making the politics but the MSM has utterly failed in the last 30 months to analyse Brexit and its implications for the electorate. That’s hardly surprising with the tax-dodging billionaire press barons controlling the agenda but please don’t anyone tell me about our wonderful wedded-to-truth journalists whose watchwords are impartiality and balance and an unquenchable thirst for the truth as per the propaganda on Pravdasound’s Media Show.
@Ian B, 6.56: quite true. I have relatives trapped in Remain-voting London whose frustration is colossal. Ooooooh Jeremy Corbin has proved he is an utter plonker to them but then I could never understand why people thought he was ever anti-Brexit. He’s trapped in the politics of the 70s but is utterly gutless in refusing to push for a VONC.
Scotland’s running out of time fast.
Nicola must write directly to the Queen and
Demand an explanation of her actions on this
Matter and seek her opinion if she considered
Westminsters action an attack on Scottish democracy.
This must also be taken to the European Court immediately!
@Liz G
Well said, The Crown is Scotland’s strongest weapon, not because we have the power to declare a republic, but because we have the power to decide who wears it.
1704 Act of Security, based on the Claim or right 1698 and our constitutional right as stated in International law through the Declaration of Arbroath.
Yesindyref2 @ 7.35
Yes. I know what the current procedural requirements are for royal assent,Yesinyref2…
But that’s not what I’m arguing.
I’m pointing out that this is wrong.
We should be arguing that this needs to be prevented from happening again!
The Devolution powers are our business, AKA, a matter for the Scots and their government.We were not trespassing into reserved matters ( pr 17 excepted) .
Nevertheless the Westminster Government was able to subvert this,which we now know could not have happened had Royal Assent been given!
The solution then,it seems to me, is to have the same rules for the Devolved Competencies as the Reserved one’s,and require the Monarch to sign.
A right never suggested in the Devolution saga so far.
Having voted for the Union in 2014.
Having been assured of our equal partnership.
Having had Westminster note our Sovereignty recently.
Then it would surely follow that the least we can expect from our joint Monarch is parity of esteem?
I’ve long held that a big part our asserting our Sovereignty should involve the Monarch…. The idea that the Monarch is above politics is a purely English construction and has no counterpart in Scots Law (so to speak,to coin a phrase).
We have Scots claiming loyalty to her and wishing to support her right to be signing our laws.. This too must be able to be questioned and adjusted when this for “whatever” reason doesn’t happen …. In or out of the Union,she cannot be a party to one Kingdom subverting another Kingdom and remain unchallenged.
And another thing probably feeding into the accident statistics: austerity and the lack of wage growth wrt inflation. Result: more people hanging onto old bangers, fewer new cars bought and likely fewer people getting timely repairs, new tyres etc done due to lack of the readies whilst still needing to get to work, take the kids to childcare etc. etc.
This sort of thing ALWAYS happens during times of economic hardship.
We arrived in London from NZ in May ’93 and every suburban street was a forest of fossilised For Sale signs, everyone was in negative equity and stories of houses completely stripped of not just soft furnishings but light fittings, switches etc, bare wires depending from ceilings and hanging out of the walls. Everything which might turn a few pence was gone. This put us off buying. At the same time there were a lot of old bangers on the roads.
Fast forward to the election of Bliar and the economic upturn they conveniently surfed and things changed, houses accumulated and it seemed everyone but us was driving a new motor.
And reflecting further with so many now on these leasing arrangements where you basically just rent your car and have to give it back in pristine condition it seems likely people will drive in a very risk averse way and inevitably have more accidents as a result as when you are focussed on one thing you cannot be focussed on something else.
K1 @ 5.17 pm
‘Where do we go now with the Continuity Bill?’
Back to the drawing board and continue , as ever, fighting for Scotland’s rights.
And for Scotland’s Independence 🙂
Here’s the Adam Boulton/Mike Russell exchange Ronnie Anderson referred to earlier today:
twitter.com/Hilandor/status/1073182911585755137
Wrong wrong – of course it is wrong.
The trick is to get the majority of people in Scotland to understand this. Not easy with a hostile, Britnat media.
The only way to do this is to control the narrative. Get the BritNat media to do the heavy lifting for you. Important facts:
1. MSM hates the SNP and SG.
2. MSM loves Blighty and dreams of a glorious imperial past.
3. MSM can only cover one “big” story at a time.
4. MSM cannot resist a scandal or a chance to ridicule those it hates.
5. MSM is impulsive and makes many mistakes.
So, with those in mind, the SNP/SG has to box clever – get outrageous from time to time, but choose your moments. Invite ridicule if it helps to set the narrative (MSM coverage is ensured). As I said, choose your moments, don’t do it too often, but you must do it from time to time.Set traps for em. Alex Salmond is a master at this.
The recent SNP walkout rom the HoC was a classic example. The MSM could not resist scoffing, but in doing so they gave it wide coverage and inadvertently handed the narrative to the SNP. The MSM’s attempt to poke fun at those silly jocks backfired spectacularly. This is the sort of stuff you need to do in the face of a hostile media.
Rev Stu,I agree that Jamie Greene is right up there as ‘Thickest Politician in Scotland’ and in my opinion, a right dickhead together with the rest of them.
However, for me, nothing matches my contempt for the dismal lack of intelligence and wretched lack of integrity and decency displayed by David Mundell.
Or is it that Mundell doesn’t count as a politician in Scotland?
On a positive note: Thank you to ALL our Scottish Politicians, here and far away, who ARE fighting for Scotland 🙂
Rule number one in propaganda warfare:
Get people’s attention (whatever it takes).
One of the BBC’s main weapons is downplaying by deliberate omission and/or distraction (squirrels). By forcing them to cover a story, you have already knocked out half of their power.
Effijy @ 8.13
Sadly Nicola doesn’t need to write to the Queen and ask for an explanation of why this happened.
She already knows…. It was set up to happen.
That it has happened on the other hand should be drawn to the Queens attention!
As well as notification the we don’t expect that it should ever happen again.
Question is… What powers will we design to make sure there are consequences if it does…. Arbroath is silent on this..
Mibbi its time to give it a voice?
Some references above to the Declaration of Arbroath. By the time we get to the 700th anniversary who knows where we’ll be but I’d like to think someone, somewhere is making very big plans to mark that occasion.
well send a P45 to hrm with a a copy of Declaration of Arbroath your fired.
I’m going to do as the BritNats do and invoke WW2.
If the Nazis had won, invaded and occupied the UK, with the current Unionist MSPs and media apologists around at that time, every single one one of them would have been falling over each other to collaborate with the occupiers.
Never to be forgotten
link to indymedia.org.uk
The Mother of all Parliaments ? no ,just the Mother Fucker of all Parliaments.
It’s believable that some regarded as ‘White Settlers’ take advantage of the many benefits of living in Scotland due to having ‘second homes’ etc, and it is utterly infuriating, aye, but we have to weigh that against the value of ordinary working English folk who move here to live permanently.
If the latter move here with the intention of establishing homes and decent futures for their children long-term, why on earth would they even countenance *not* supporting the inevitable shift to independence?
Well all comments are appreciated but if the SNP truly want Scottish Independence then how and when ?
This is the bit aye Like best… the brainstorming bit, we expected that wee wind tae blaw in aye and aye believe we remain on route to timely independence. Excellent capture of oor Mike on the Sky news geeo cheers, ah Love his spoken passion, Yes 2 now.
Welcome back clan rossy ~
Stand ready fellow Winger, the RMS TITANIC UK is about to snap in middle and that’s when awwwe the water rushes in. The lifeboats are still available, but if the previous no voters don’t seek refuge wae us, then they’ll be in the water wae them. Remember when Rose Dawson (Kate Winslet) is up on the surface after the sinking ship of fools goes below… imagine you are Kate… being in a union with Westminster is like being with that guy in the water (without a lifejacket) that cannae swim, who frantically lashes out for you, to keep himself afloat and ye both go under.
But then, by avoiding the water, the wise Scot seeked sovereign salvation on the Caledonian Carpathia.
Then we sail HOME.
The Supreme Court and UK Govt have confirmed what others said about devolution:
Devolution is power retained at Westminster.
Devolved power always were beads for the natives, to let them think they own something. But they always were just loaned and can be taken away any time WM wants to.
For as long as pro-independence politicians talk up devolution it gives it false credibility to the general public. Scottish Govt in name only.
As I’ve always said: Holyrood, as it is, is nothing more than the Westminster branch office, despite the best efforts of the SNP to make a silk purse out of Labour’s pig’s ear parliament.
All those who want real power for Scotland, should not give any credibility to devolution.
The devolution power grab is unacceptable. The SC say it is a political issue, not a legal one. That’s what the law says.
That means, it’s up to us, the people of Scotland to get off our knees, exercise our sovereignty, and take back control of our country.
The pretendy “sovereignty” of the Scots busted again by the Supreme Court of the UK.
Whatever happened to the “independent” Scottish justice system?
Does a single SNP politician in Scotland have the guts to challenge in a Scottish court the legitimacy of the the UK Supreme Court?
No.
Never mind folks, just a bit more patience needed now.
Scotland is due to become independent in 2640 AD.
If any poster has an earlier date in mind, I would be most interested to hear.
I recall way back just after the EU vote that someone posted a link to a clause within Article 50 that more or less stated that the withdrawing member state could not alter its constitutional set up during and leading up to the withdrawal date.
We have the Sewel convention, where it is stated that:
‘The United Kingdom Parliament retains authority to legislate on any issue, whether devolved or not. It is ultimately for Parliament to decide what use to make of that power. However, the UK Government will proceed in accordance with the convention that the UK Parliament would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters except with the agreement of the devolved legislature. The devolved administrations will be responsible for seeking such agreement as may be required for this purpose on an approach from the UK Government. (para. 14)
This was done by section 2 of the Scotland Act 2016, which substantively replicates the wording in the Memorandum of Understanding and amends section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 (governing the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament) to include this new sub-section (8).
But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.’
And further:
Despite its wording, the convention is treated as applying not just to substantive Westminster legislation on devolved matters like health and education, but also to constitutional changes which increase or reduce devolved executive or legislative powers. See for example Devolution Guidance Note 10 issued by the UK Ministry of Justice, on Post devolution Primary Legislation Affecting Scotland (available here). (Parallel guidance has been issued by the Scottish Government.)
But then finally this is how they got out of all of this as we all know too well:
March 2017: It is worth noting that the legal nature of the Sewel (or legislative consent) convention was extensively discussed by the UK Supreme Court in the ‘Article 50’ case, R. (on the application of Miller and another) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. The court’s judgment is available in PDF format here. Most importantly, the court’s majority opinion took the view that the convention remains a political convention, and is not enforceable by the courts, despite being incorporated into statute.
link to devolutionmatters.wordpress.com
My point is, the UK government and the SC have tore up the devolution settlement, as we all know, and now have openly gerrymandered our CB retrospectively.
But surely there must be some recourse to the law with respect to my first point regarding Article 50? I just can’t find it, I’m pretty sure it was yesindyref2 who posted the original comment and I recall being struck by it.
Because the above manoeuvres have done precisely that, altered the constitutional set up within the UK as we are frog marched out of the EU against our will?
So many good comments on here today 🙂
I listened to our Lord Advocate and our MSPs speaking in the Scottish Parliament today on the SC ruling on Scotland’s Continuity Bill.
Please DO go and hear this at original source. Starts about 2pm.
THIS is the kind of knowledge we need to convince EVERYONE to vote for Scotland’s Independence.
Scotland was shafted by the UK government. Again. As expected.
But as usual, I expect them to rue the day. Sleeckit and dishonourable behaviour has a way of coming back to bite one on the bum.
Our Lord Advocate is a quiet spoken man but he packs a fair punch 🙂
For the pure joy of it see Geeo’s link @ 7.19 pm of Mike Russell versus SKY TV!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
THIS is us many more steps along our Road to Independence 🙂
In additionality…
If folks are needing to let off some steam, seasons permitting, we could get together for a last 2018 shindig, ye ken emergency times call for emergency measures like aye. 😉
I would suggest Saturday the 15th or 22nd somewhere in Edinburgh and aye understand that Winger marga from Barcelona is visiting there on them dates and was hoping to meet.. hey marga x.
Ahm game.
Looking back, the debate for IndyRef1 was lacking context. The big constitutional democratic deficit argument was lost in the banal minutiae.
Were there any speeches broadcast to Scotland as a whole to inspire for generations to come? I am not aware but Wingers could help me out if there was. We needed a Jimmy Reid ‘rat race’ type speech to bring it all together. Every debate seemed focussed on counting pennies or stupid stuff like missing out on Dr Who.
Independence was reduced to ‘the pound in your pocket’ argument so beloved of politicians from Harold Wilson onward. That strategy played into the hands of the nation being run as a business or household. An online pet supplies seller became the poster boy for the economic argument to reject our Independence as a nation.
I know now that people had emerged capable of galvanising and making the big persuasive arguments – Tommy Sheppard, Mhairi Black and Joanna Cherry to name a few. Mike Russell has become a great defender of the Scottish Parliament, more stuff like today’s argument with Adam Boulton is needed. They need to be heard more. Maybe they were always this good but we never heard them. Again our media has so much to answer for.
One of the things I love about WoS comments is the wealth of historical detail about how we got here. I feel for years people like me have been blind and deaf to the big picture while we were bombarded with screeching nonsense like that featured above.
When it comes to IndyRef2 we know the Yoons will play very dirty. What has happened in Westminster over the last 4 years has shown us they will utilise every means to hand. We have to use the wealth of evidence that WoS has compiled in 5K posts to show people who are still doubtful what is at stake.
Today was another step forward I feel. Tomkins did not get to dominate the headlines the way he surely had hoped.
Mike Russell video hits 1000 shares on Facebook !!
Assuming shared to a lowball 20 friend average means that video has reached around 20,000 people at least.
Hows that for SNP rebuttal ???
“with varying degrees of grudging reluctance, Holyrood’s EU continuity bill was (with one minor exception), entirely legal and within the Parliament’s powers at the time when it was voted through.”
“However, the UK government booted it to the court so that they could hastily change the rules and render it illegal before it received royal assent.”
The UK Supreme Court, like the entire “independent” justice system of Scotland, is part and parcel of the unionist British Establishment.
Behind the fine sounding words, there will always be a ruling that will be in Westminster’s interests.
With hindsight, it was “entirely legal” only because it had been rendered illegal and was therefore illegal.
Otherwise it would have found another reason.
Shouldn’t it have ruled that the UK’s hastily changed rules were illegal?
I can say with 100% confidence that Establishment lawyer Nicola will not dare call an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster because she knows perfectly well that it would be deemed illegal by the UK Supreme Court and she would have too flee into exile like the Catalonian nationalists.
By accepting the UK Supreme Court’s ruling, the SNP has accepted the legitimacy of the UK Supreme Court.
Don’t worry folks, everything will be sorted out in 2640 AD.
Meg merrilees says:
13 December, 2018 at 5:25 pm
“So we got rid of the Offensive behaviour at Football Act”
Shouldn’t you have added BECAUSE THE “INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTING” GREENS SIDED WITH THE UNIONISTS?
Dave McEwan Hill says:
13 December, 2018 at 6:18 pm
“It has also been polled that around 30% of them are YES supporters and I would think that is probably climbing.”
Does that mean 70% of them are NO supporters?
“Probably climbing” is nothing more than fake news.
K1 @ 9.25
Very interesting stuff K1, could the article 50 stuff also be read the other way.
As in we couldn’t have had an Indy Ref during the active A50 period I wonder?
If English settlers and English holiday home owners had not been allowed to vote in the last independence referendum, YES would have probably won by 50.1% against 49.9% for NO.
That is my humble opinion, I don’t have any proof.
Westminster is, once again, revealed for what it is, an anti-democratic cesspit of lies and mendacity.
Everybody knows it. Our European partners know it. Our Irish cousins know it. Countless peoples around the globe, who suffered under the boot of British colonialism know it. People in Yemen, Syria, Iraq and Palestine know it.
Let’s do the world a favour and pull the plug on that rotten, thieving den of orcs. Without our resources they will shrivel up and die. Our MPs could simply walk out of Westminster which has just torn up the Treaty of Union and declare Scotland an independent state within the EU.
Apart from Supreme Court Ruling, yet another reason for Independence seen on Twitter:
Scottish Tory on the plane..” I hope that SNP never get their wish for Independence……”I live and work in Bath, still register my family at my home address that I rent out in Morningside..that way kids still get free tuition at Napier Uni.”
The partial devolution of limited Income Tax powers is a trap that no Scottish government can avoid.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
13 December, 2018 at 6:27 pm
“I am seriously amused by some of the comments on here tonight.
Did anyone seriously expect any other sort of ruling? I don’t imagine the SNP expected anything other than an attempt to frustate Scotland’s interest and prove to us all that devolution is not what is good for us.
Our enemey has just again strengthened the case for independence.”
May I ask where you buy your rose-tinted specs?
Or have you had a laser operation so you can see everything rosy?
HAd the grandchildren round tonight and i will borrow one of their favourite expressions.
“Are we there yet?”
Independence can only be a few sleeps away if Scotland is awake.
From the Open University: “If there is no section 30, the Scottish parliament may not even have the chance to debate a proposed second referendum bill. The decision on whether to debate a referendum bill would be in the hands of the chair of the Scottish parliament – the presiding officer, a position currently held by Ken MacKintosh.
If the bill is outside the powers of the parliament and deals with a reserved matter, the presiding officer can block the proposal from being debated at all. If there is no section 30 order, that could be quite likely as it would be clear that the powers had not been transferred from Westminster to Holyrood.
The same Ken MacIntosh who said the Continuity Bill was outside the Parliament’s powers, when nearly all of it wasn’t, until the House of Lords moved the goalposts to make the CB outside it’s powers.
Is the OU right, could Ken Mac simply block indyref2?
The SP hasn’t already given the green light. In March 2017 the SP backed the SEEKING OF PERMISSION to hold another indyref, not indyref2 without permission.
jfngw says:
13 December, 2018 at 6:32 pm
“@Dave McEwan Hill
It’s not the case for independence that is the problem, the case has been clear since 2016. It’s whether the Scots will take it and with WM able to retrospectively change the rules how do we get there.”
Too late, the next availability for taking it is in 2640 AD.
Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):
“Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.
The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.
But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.
It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.
Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.
Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.
If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”
Daily Record had a poll that showed Scottish born voters had a small yes majority in the 2014 referendum.
Look get this straight.
The Supreme Court decision is not a shock, it’s not a surprise , it was fully and I do mean fully expected, by the SNP and any lawyer or solicitor worth their salt, all that has happened is that the SNP has cleverly forced the English Westminster British government to declare openly through the Supreme Court what the SNP already knew which is that the Sewel convention and the Scotland bill 2016 are not worth the paper they are written on in terms of Scotland making decisions for itself make no mistake Englands Westminster wanted to keep that hidden from you they wanted you to continue thinking Scots law was separate and independent they wanted you to be gullible enough to think you have the strongest devolved parliament in the world but you don’t .
The SNP and Scotlands legal minds always knew that because of the odd way that the Sewel convention and the Scotland Act 2016 were written ,there were too many loopholes that Westminster could squeeze through to subvert any ideas that the Scottish government may ever have of making its own rules.
Basically the Scotland Act 2016 says that Englands Westminster laws are superior to Scotlands laws and will always trump them and the simple quickest way that they can do that is to refer every Scottish government law they don’t like to the Supreme Court and whilst it is at the Supreme Court for a decision Westminster will quickly write and issue a new law circumventing the Scottish law sitting with the Supreme Court so that by the time the Supreme Court considers the new Scottish law Westminster has already written a brand new law that nullifies it.
Sneaky eh ? That’s what you get from the English and don’t come away with that crap about it not being English people who are responsible for this ,English people vote for this Westminster cesspit and are wholly responsible for its existence and that includes the ones who live here in Scotland and be clear about this there are 800,000 of them not the 450,000 some quote which is from a census done in 2011.
We have been colonised well and truly ,English Scots do not exist you are either Scottish or English you cannot be both ,just like every other nationality in the world you have to choose which one you are.
Nearly all the 800,000 English people in Scotland will choose their motherland England make no mistake about that.
Independence is the only way out.
After independence those English people who live in Scotland and want to change their nationality to Scottish will be able to do so and it is likely that dual nationality will eventually be available to some including England Ireland Wales folks but there will be hardly any English people switch to Scottish nationality ,historically it’s not what happens when a country loses colonial control
Liz g says:
13 December, 2018 at 6:36 pm
” We go to the source….
The Declaration of Arbroath is NOT a reserved matter.”
It EFFECTIVELY became a reserved matter in 1707.
In 1707, the “sovereign” “plebs” did not have the right to vote.
How a “pleb” can be “sovereign” without having the right to vote, only God and Robert Peffers know.
Westminster gave the “plebs” the right to vote.
Which they “democratically” used to prevent dissolving the treaty of union in 2014.
The rest is history.
But no need to panic. When the next independence referendum is held in 2640 AD, Yes will win and the treaty will be democratically dissolved.
52.7% of Scottish born voters voted yes. Survey in the Times.
Ian Brotherhood says:
13 December, 2018 at 6:56 pm
“CH4 have interviewed Heseltine and an excerpt is on Twitter.
It is really quite moving to see this man reflect on what has happened to his party. He appears close to tears, expressing sadness for the generations to come, genuinely remorseful.”
As a life long “socialist”, do you have any sympathy for Heseltine?
Just shows how easy it is for Scots to be duped by the British Establishment.
Ian Brotherhood at 9.15
Well said. On two of the six open days weekly we have at the YES Forward Shop in Dunoon it is English SNP members in charge.
Rock, Callachan and the other BritNat trolls – just scrolling you by.
Just so you know, like.
As for the Liberals touting a federal UK – that is a complete non-starter. England will never agree to having its regions free to make decision on their own behalf. Why should it? Would we agree to have Scottish regions acting as free agents? No, of course not.
The Liberals are simply proposing something which they know will never happen. Just as they have been promising Home Rule for a hundred years.
A Tory is a Liberal who has been mugged.
A Liberal is a Tory who has been arrested.
Both are vacuous policy free zones which we can safely ignore. Although we do have to resist their malign influence.
Rock at 10.02
Probaly the most sensible and accurate post you have ever made. Nobody disputes this. If we had prevented our own over sixties from voting we would have achieved the same result.
Your point is?
As a life long human being we can all appreciate other human beings making good arguments and being passionate about what they believe in irrespective of their political persuasion you dimwitted fucking arse.
Good point Liz…this may well have been a consideration and maybe still is?
Wish I could find the bloody clause that relates to this. 🙁
@Mark Russell
Welcome to Wings Mark, hopefully you might have been lurking for a while before ever posting and know that things can get a bit hot in here after 21:00 so don’t let that put you off 🙂
I look forward to more input from you, most of us are always interested in views from “outside” on the subject of Scottish Independence.
For us regular readers this is Mark Russell.
link to markrussell.net
Old Pete says:
13 December, 2018 at 10:15 pm
“52.7% of Scottish born voters voted yes. Survey in the Times.”
Rock (8th December – “The Stoned Roses”):
“For the record, I have nothing against English settlers in Scotland and find it quite natural that the vast majority of them would prefer Scotland to remain “in union with England”.
But it is the ultimate in stupidity to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England.
Everywhere else in the world, they were unceremoniously kicked out.
But the most stupid people on earth are happy to let them have a say on whether their country should be their colony or not.
I don’t give a damn if any poster calls me racist.”
I ask again:
Could Ken MacIntosh simply refuse to allow Indyref2 to be debated, thus blocking it?
The entire tired old fucking argument from these clowns on here about ‘we coulda, shoulda, what ifa’ does indeed apply to any way you slce and dice the outcome. We coulda won if the English wur banned’, ‘ we shoulda won but he elderly stoapped us’, ‘if only the mair people hud voted we woulda won it’.
Gets to the point where a few of yer brain cells just die off the minute ye set eyes on this pish.
British Establishment rules the BBC
link to thenational.scot
Can Ken MacIntosh be removed, say tomorrow ?
Dave McEwan Hill says:
13 December, 2018 at 10:22 pm
“If we had prevented our own over sixties from voting we would have achieved the same result.”
There might be a small difference between “our own over sixties” and someone else’s over sixties:
Robert Peffers (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”)
“The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”
No doubt the EU has seen the underhand way that Westminster has taken Scotland’s power by changing the law after legislation has been passed. I can only imagine they will be even more careful of the wording of any agreement with Westminster, presumably knowing they will be trying to insert loopholes to exit themselves from any agreement.
Today has proven that Scotland actually has the least powerful parliament in the world, one that can have any legislation overturned at the whim of another country.
Now what question to ask the Scottish people that can’t be made illegal by Westminster?
For Terence Callaghan’s info the 2014 census put English born at 479,000 so I would think we could perhaps be at 500,000 now though there is a great exodus to the big teepee in the sky every year which moderates things.
On the other had over a million residents in Central Scotland are of fairly Irish descent. What about them? There are over 200,000 from the EU in Scotland at the moment. Without them and the English our population would actually have dropped significantly and many non urban areas would be in no position to support significant services.
There are more Scots in England than there are English in Scotland as well. Are they refused a vote down south?
” ‘Trust me’, Britain’s May tells EU leaders she can get Brexit deal passed “
Her letter to Santa is in the post!
link to reuters.com
@Rock (10.17) –
‘As a life long “socialist”, do you have any sympathy for Heseltine?’
Yes, I do, because he’s a human being who goes through the same shite as everybody else, and no matter how privileged he may have been, he is capable of imparting what he’s learned. Only a bigoted fool would disregard what someone of his experience and stature has to say, no matter the ideological differences.
He’s sending out an S.O.S. for the ‘Britain’ he believed in, and even if I don’t as ‘a life long socialist’, share his vision? So what? FFS, the man doesn’t have long to go, so what would he be looking to gain from such testimony in the short-term?
I feel wretched for even reacting to such crude goading, but sometimes you stray away from your normal guidelines and reveal your actual ‘self’ as a peculiarly twisted individual.
To be clear – I don’t know you and I don’t give a solitary fuck about you, so I can be objective, and I say, as a fellow human being, hand-on-heart – please consider getting another job, for your own sake.
@ Mark Russell
Welcome aboard Mark..
Can I endorse what Thepnr said and just add..
That looking at your profile you not only would get a welcome on Wings night out extended to everyone..
We would also love you to bring yer musical and humorous talents….
Ian Brotherhood @ 10.53
Well said…..
Dear Jamie Greene
do you think projections post Brexit would be
1. Disastrous
2. completely shit
3. really, really bad?
Another question. How did you become a MSP?
jfngw @ 10.36
Aye… and the whole time they were stealing our Parliaments righteous powers… they had the bare faced cheek tae wonder why the EU needed tae lockdown a backstop!!
I like to think that Nicola was drawing the attention ( not that they probably needed it) of the Irish and the rEU to EXACTLY what Westminster were doing?
@K1 says: 13 December, 2018 at 5:17 pm:
“Where do we go now with the Continuity fiasco?
They literally shafted Scotland and will take any powers they want from our party?
I’m fucking raging.”
And that, K1 speaks volumes.
If you are raging do you imagine you are the only one of Scotland’s people that are also raging?
Don’t you think there will be many, many more of the people of Scotland who will be hardening their views against the union?
If that SC ruling is anything it is a slight against the legally sovereign people of Scotland and many of them will not have realised – yet – just how much legal powers being legally sovereign makes them.
All the SG needs now is a majority of the legally sovereign people to realise they have the legal powers to end the union just by giving the SG a mandate to call it quits and walk away from Westminster rule.
The facts are plain – there is the legally binding article of union that says that Scots and English law are independent and are actually incompatible with each other. You cannot have two legally sovereign powers if they disagree with each other and when they do the only way that both can remain sovereign is if one of them backs down and defers to the other.
To date the sovereign power to defer to the other has been the Kingdom of Scotland but now Westminster is claiming that Westminster holds sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland but the union is a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and there is not a shred of documentary evidence to support their claim but the Treaty of Union itself documents the fact that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign.
Westminster’s claims are based upon historical legal evidence going back a very long time before there even was a treaty of union and they quote an English change in English law from 1688 and thus cannot be applied to Scotland which was independent in 1688.
There would have been absolutely no one in the Scottish Government today that this result would have come as a surprise to.
In particular Lord Advocate Wolffe must have fully expected this exact result and advised Nicola Surgeon accordingly. It was the UK Parliament that took the Scottish Parliament to court over this and Lord Wolffe began preparing his case.
Before the case even got to court though Westminster received Royal Assent for the Withdrawal Bill and subsequently inserted the Withdrawal Bill into Schedule 4 of the Scotland Act 1998.
Seriously you couldn’t make it up, but they have just done that. As I said no one at senior level would be surprised as they must have been advised that since it was now part of Section 4 of the Scotland Act then in was “no longer” within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.
I’ll only say this and it’s since this started the majority on here have always viewed the result as being of the win/win kind, I think we actually had an added bonus. In order to win they had to be “sleekit” as some might say and use underhand tactics that shifted the goalposts hahaha.
That’s no partnership of equals, that’s no “lead us not leave us”, that’s you’ll do as we tell you uppity Jock now get back in you box and eat your cereal.
We can use this as the perfect example of how Westminster trample all over the democratic rights of the Scots and those they elect to represent them. Sure be angry but know where to focus that anger and its NOT at the Scottish government or the SNP.
Direct that anger at it’s rightful place, the cesspit that is Westminster.
Don’t agree that “Ken MacIntosh and his legal adviser should be sacked for perverting the course of justice.” @Capella says
That pair of fuckers should be jailed!
I have a suggestion for the Rev which may not be workable but, if it was, would save many of us on here an awful lot of time. Can you build a filter into the site which would provide an option for users to view only postings which do not contain certain words such as Rock, HYAFUD(or whatever), and Alexander? Ideally each user would be able to tailor his own list of exclusions to which he could add the names of any new trolls as they emerge.
In addition to saving precious time there could be a significant reduction in heart attacks, strokes and spouse beating which would help our hard pressed NHS.
The Queen of England isn’t soveriegn folks, she signs whatever bits of paper are put in front of her she has no choice she is a kept parasite for show and to stick her head on money and stamps, she doesn’t even have the power to go out without asking the governments permission to arrange it first
Ken MacIntosh: If you remember the reason why and how he got the job as presiding officer was because the SNP being short of MSPs wouldn’t sacrifice one of their own with a vote for that position and you can always rely on Labour to toady someone up for a job that looks important even though it reduced their own vote by one, Labour would fight an election over a Blue Peter Badge if they thought it would make them look good, remember when Kezia said she was autonomous, she said that a lot because they told her from the big office she could
You know that a lot of Ken MacIntosh’s job is doorman and tour guide right
The EU has just telt May and her xenophobic britnats to take a hike.
Ye’ve got tae love the EU stance in regard of britnat brexit.
The EU have just given the English Parliament a severe boot in the chuckies. Told England they are onto plumbs,,no more deals,,,,it’s take it or leave time.
No Deal 99% assured.
Happy days are here again.
Independence is imminent.
@Terence callachan says: 13 December, 2018 at 5:34 pm:
” … Ahhh we are okay though, we have 800,000 English people living in Scotland who will now vote for Scottish independence”
Yes Terrance – racism is indeed a terrible mental disease it warps everyone who suffers it.
The Tories of late make a compelling case for Scottish independence. Wicked, duplicitous and incompetent. Jamie, bless him is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel though.
Watching Brexit Time…not sure I can take much more though. Dear Lord it is tedious.
Yeh, Ken Macintosh is a disgrace. And probably complicit. I wonder if the betrayal was only for the ermine? Whatever, he is no longer qualified to uphold the integrity and principles of the Scottish Parliament after wrongly questioning the competence of the SP on the CB and green-lighting the delay that saw the competence brazenly removed in the meantime. I wonder if he’s proud of himself for his actions.
Time and delaying tactics are being used against us. It is all becoming so murky.
Ian Brotherhood says:
13 December, 2018 at 10:53 pm
:@Rock (10.17) –
‘As a life long “socialist”, do you have any sympathy for Heseltine?’
Yes, I do, because he’s a human being”
Do you have any sympathy for poor Theresa May, UK Prime Minister, whom I believe is a human being, and seems to be in dreadful trouble, poor, poor dear?
Just shows how easy it is for Scots to be duped by the British Establishment.
Evidently very well-connected and already flush with cash from sources unknown, the limited company recently raised a reported £300,000 for itself at a “charity” dinner attended by such luminaries of the great and the good as Lord Alistair Darling, Lord Dunlop and (um) Willie Rennie, auctioning off exotic high-end goodies like hunting trips to Africa, polo parties with the Maharajah of Jodhpur and Alpine holidays.
link to caltonjock.com
If the First Minister of Scotland is also the Keeper of the Great Seal of Scotland.
and The PO and UK Attorney General can’t be trusted to be unbiased.
and The Queen of Scots is happy to grant assent to UK Gov Bill which should have been suspended until Scottish Gov Bill competence was determined.
Can’t Scottish Government just cut out the middle man/Monarch and use the Seal?
Ian Brotherhood
Concur Heseltine always was a proper human being and called a spade a spade, a man with integrity.
Tom Kane says:
13 December, 2018 at 11:24 pm
“Time and delaying tactics are being used against us. It is all becoming so murky.”
I can assure you that there will be no delay beyond 2640 AD.
Just a bit more patience please.
The difference between an Independence supporter and a Unionist is having a soul or not having a soul. Well said Ian.
@ Liz g
Thank you – and that would be fun. All the best.
Old Pete said:
13 December, 2018 at 10:34 pm
Can Ken MacIntosh be removed, say tomorrow ?
The rules say a Presiding Officer can be removed with a majority of votes.
The SNP and Greens have a total of 68 MSPs and 1 Independent ( ex-SNP) makes another one, assuming he’d back it. That’s 69.
65 reach make the required ABSOLUTE majority ( ALL MSPs voting), as there are 129 MSPs.
But then the Presiding Officer normally cannot vote, so pro-indy MSPs would have one less pro-indy MSP to vote for Indyref after that. To get indyref would require 65 votes, if a pro-indy Presiding Officer, they could manage 68.
So, in THIS parliament it could be done, by just a few votes. It’s as close as that.
After 2021, who knows if there would be enough pro-indy MSPs to form a majority in the SP?
Ian Brotherhood says:
13 December, 2018 at 10:53 pm
“To be clear – I don’t know you and I don’t give a solitary fuck about you, so I can be objective, and I say, as a fellow human being, hand-on-heart – please consider getting another job, for your own sake.”
I didn’t sneak back in through the backdoor.
Ian Brotherhood,
11 February, 2017 at 12:59 am
“Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.
No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.
I’ve had my run-ins with a few folk here over recent years, but it never got so nasty that I, or t’other correspondent was barred (well, so far as I’m aware).
This is something else – Rev Stu is, for his own reasons, deciding to ignore repeated and genuine complaints about a poster who appears to be a properly full-grown, very hairy (if crafty and intelligent) troll.
This is a gesture of protest, aye, but it’s a purely personal shout. I’m not trying to spark some major outcry or witch-hunt.
See ye’s around elsewhere, nae doots!”
There will only be cockroaches and tardirades living on this planet in 2640 the way the world is going you racist bigot
Always knew the southerners would play dirty they can’t take losing they knew they’d lose hence why they changed the rules after sueing us they cry to the supreme Court which is Westminsters bicth let’s be honest now that’s what it is and yet still didn’t get it completely there way hence why the verdict was 3 months late nearly they can’t beat us stright out even by there own rules hence why they had the rules changed behind our backs it’s utter cowardice and seeing as they represent England they basically made England look like a country of cowards and cheats with all this crap they pulled of late.
@Thepnr says:
13 December, 2018 at 10:28 pm
@Mark Russell
Welcome to Wings Mark…..
For us regular readers this is Mark Russell.
link to markrussell.net
Ah regrettably I’m more homegrown than my American namesake and not as good looking either. Partial to an occasional sing-song though…
This is me, unfortunately…
link to mark-russell.net
jfngw says:
13 December, 2018 at 10:36 pm
“Today has proven that Scotland actually has the least powerful parliament in the world, one that can have any legislation overturned at the whim of another country.”
Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.
“Sovereign” my foot.
In practice, a Scottish dog has more “sovereignty” than a Scot.
Anyone who keeps on insisting that Scots are “sovereign” is dumber than anyone who keeps on voting Labour.
In my humble opinion.
Talk, Talk ,Talk!
Jockanees Wind Talker @ 11.25
Well.. I see what you’re getting at, and I don’t necessarily disagree.
But
At this point in time we have a Monarch who is charged with signing Laws.
Wouldn’t the simplest thing to do be
To first try to ensure that the Monarch actually does her job?
We in Scotland are busy either trying to make the Devolution settlement work ( presumably the majority British Unionist in Scotland view) or trying to end the 1707 Treaty of Union.
The Union of the Crowns… which is an imaginary based Union rather than a Treaty based one.. well,, can wait till we’ve the time.
That’s not to say that we cannot deliver our expectations to the Monarch!
Ye never know she and the dofan might not want the job…
Having said that, I will absolutely insist, as I Hope will all other Wingers..
We must offer our terms for the Honours of Scotland within the EU working time directives…
Re: Mackintosh/Supreme Court/Continuity Bill-related shenanigans, please have a swatch here:
twitter.com/ianbhood/status/1073327715011436544
@ K1 – don’t read it. Just scroll on by. That’s what I do and it does save a lot of grief.
here below is the EU response to PM May’s 10 min plea for “something, anything, to satisfy that lot back home”
Hope FM Sturgeon and the Scottish Govt will provide just as firm a response to today’s Court case and to Scotland’s position in the UK and role in the EU
1. The European Council reconfirms its conclusions of 25 November 2018, in which it endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and approved the Political Declaration. The Union stands by this agreement and intends to proceed with its ratification. It is not open for renegotiation.
2. The European Council reiterates that it wishes to establish as close as possible a partnership with the United Kingdom in the future. It stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal.
3. The European Council underlines that the backstop is intended as an insurance policy to prevent a hard border on the island of Ireland and ensure the integrity of the Single Market. It is the Union’s firm determination to work speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered.
4. The European Council also underlines that, if the backstop were nevertheless to be triggered, it would apply temporarily, unless and until it is superseded by a subsequent agreement that ensures that a hard border is avoided. In such a case, the Union would use its best endeavours to negotiate and conclude expeditiously a subsequent agreement that would replace the backstop, and would expect the same of the United Kingdom, so that the backstop would only be in place for as long as strictly necessary.
5. The European Council calls for work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal to be intensified, taking into account all possible outcomes.
link to consilium.europa.eu
@Mark Russell
Hahaha OK I got it wrong, my fault for following the highlighted link that’s your name above your posts 🙂
Maybe want to leave out a link to a website for future posts as they’re not required to post anyway. Here’s me thinking we had a celebrity on board too.
Never mind you’re posts were good, shame you can’t play the mouthy 🙂
Mark I see what’s happened now, you left the hyphen from your correct link out of the one you typed in the “website” box. Stick a hyphen in and all will be good.
Cynical Highlander @ 11.25
Steady on…
I wouldn’t go that far… LOL
Mark Russell
Doesn’t matter you’re still welcome…
Even if it’s only to demonstrate that you can’t play or sing.. LOL
Terence
No way is there 800000 English born residents in Scotland. There is a projected increase of 6000 to 7000 each year. Dave McEwan Hill’s estimate is probably about right. Even if 80% vote no then it only adds about 0.08% to the anti-independence vote per annum. Unless Rock is actually Nicola Sturgeon, it won’t make a significant impact on the next referendum result.
@geeo says: 13 December, 2018 at 7:11 pm:
” … If you want to take it down that road, DEVOLUTION is a clear breach of the Act and Treaties of Union as, according to the SC today,”
No, geeo, the Acts of Union were both passed by parliaments to ratify the Treaty of Union for their respective parliaments that then declared themselves in recess. In the case of the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England it was a permanent recess and there has not been a parliament of either the kingdom or the country of England since 30 April 1707. Their act of Union was passed in order to end the Parliament of England and what followed at Westminster was legally a union parliament.
By a quirk of fate the Scottish Parliament’s Act of Union did NOT end the old Parliament of Scotland as they never sat and passed the act. It was just proclaimed around Edinburgh by town criers and thus the old Scots parliament was prorogued, (not put in permanent recess). When Winnie Ewing opened the first devolved Scots Parliament she did not open it as a new parliament but she reconvened it. Holyrood is legally the reconvened old Parliament of Scotland and Westminster is NOT the legal parliament of England it is legally the Union Parliament of the United Kingdom and both kingdoms are equally sovereign.
England doesn’t have an elected parliament and has not had one since 1 May 1707. These are facts – not conjectures.
You do understand what that nice Mrs May is so politely asking the EU to do in regard to that little ‘agreement’ she made with them. The one about the so-called ‘Irish backstop’. Her deal – Brexit, my Brexit – the only one on offer.
You know the one I mean … The agreement which included that special arrangement for Northern Ireland which Arlene and the DUPpers, along with 117 of her very own, are getting so upset about. According to which the backstop carries on indefinitely until BOTH parties decide that it ceases.
Which means that the UK can’t ever – not ever, not even for a moment – get out of that agreement, unless the EU lets it.
Mrs May is simply asking the EU to do her the very small favour – what a tiny little thing to ask! – that they add the little word ‘normally’ to the formula she and they both agreed upon. Such a simple thing to do … such a tiny little favour to ask … It shouldn’t take a minute.
The EU will surely make that little concession, since it would help her so much to convince that nice Mr Rees-Mogg (and the 116 others) to sign up to Brexit, ‘her’ Brexit, the only deal on the table, the only possible way forward. That tiny little word will be so reassuriing for them, Mr Mogg and his fellow Moggers, and Bojo and all. And it will make such a difference!
Then all will be well – both for the EU, which obviously wants ‘her’ deal – THE deal – to stick. And for her, who also wants exactly the same thing: ‘My Deal, or No Deal – so there! Like it, or lump it!’
After all, Mr Rees-Mogg knows what ‘normally’ means. Like all properly and full-bloodedly English MPs – representing English constituencies – he understands the English language. And he knows full well what the term means. And if anyone presses, well … “‘normally’ just means – y’know – ‘normally’, that’s all. Nothing to it, really”.
Mrs May thinks these funny-sounding Europeans – Mr Tusk and Mr Junker and all that lot – will just sit down and agree.
They’re foreigners, after all. And they don’t know English properly, you know … And they’ve never even heard of the Sewell Convention …
‘So come on, chaps, play the game. Just insert a little ‘normally’ for me. Not much to ask, is it?’
@Thepnr
Cheers!
@ Ian Brotherhood
This was Ken MacIntosh’s statement at the time:
link to parliament.scot
To be fair, he never tried to block the debate and the SP passed the legislation; most of the CB wasn’t blocked until the UK Govt took it to the SP.
This also caught my attention in his statement:
“When a Bill is passed the Scotland Act imposes a further responsibility on the Law Officers to consider competence and only when their functions have been discharged, or the four weeks allowed for doing so has passed without challenge, can Royal Assent be given”.
It’s a given that an “advisory” Indyref2 will also be challenged in the SC by the UK Govt. Even assuming the SC would eventually rule an “advisory” ref is legally competent for the SP, how much time will it take to clear the SC?
And would the UK Parliament, simply not do the same again as they did with the CB: send it to the SC and in the meantime move the goalposts again by legislating that the SP cannot legislate for ANY referendums on independence or sovereignty.
How can the Scot Govt play indyref2 by the UK rules and win, when the rules can be changed in the UK’s favour at any time by the UK Parliament to block indyref2?
@Mark
Works a treat 🙂
Just trying to think if the next move. Comments please but here is a suggestion.
We know that Westminster does NOT want to Remain, which is Scotland’s choice.
We also know that they can simply run down the clock and not give a meaningful vote in parliament until the very last minute, thereby ensuring that either no-deal or Mays deal is delivered as the “will of the people”.
They most certainly will not have a vote to Remain and revoke Article 50, this would not be in the interest of the Tax dodgers.
The EU have also categorically ruled out reopening Mays deal.
So if we have an indyref2 on 29 Mar 19, the voters will know that it is going to be at minimum Mays terrible deal, as A50 revocation will NOT have been delivered.
So Westminster is then in a dilemma
Revoke A50 and stay in the EU with the tax haven exposure, or Brexit with either a terrible deal or a no deal.
By utilising the cliff edge this way we have retained ECJ jurisdiction, EU citizens and given the crucial “Don’t knows” a straight but stark choice, and they only get one chance to jump in the lifeboat, Tory Britain or Independence.
At least i saw some good news this week, Alan Sugar is going to leave if Corbyn becomes PM. No more of his crap Apprentice programme, admittedly it is not as bad as the technical tat he used to punt.
Germany has Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes, we had Amstrad.
He was a byword for shit products in my opinion, now passed of as a business guru by the BBC.
This is just the strt of it, wait until Xmas and New Year are over and we will be awash with these stories.
I remain optimistic and see the chances of crashing straight out with no deal as very small indeed and believe we are heading for another referendum.
None the less until this is resolved one way or another, once the holidays are over I’ll be adding an extra tin or two to my everyday shop.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
Robert peffers@12.02am
Maybe i phrased that wrong, i was merely suggesting that because WM ACT like the defacto English parliament, by handing out ‘baubles’ like the devolved Scottish parliament, and it’s budget, as if THEY (England) were superior to US (Scotland), then a case could be made on that basis that devolution as an idea, could be construed as contrary to the idea of Scotland and England being equal partners, which we know we are, of course.
Its fine to repeat the message about sovereignty etc, but how about an explanation of how we get to an indyref if WM simply say ‘feck off, no S.30 ?
I have previously suggested ways, but got shot down, but never hear the methodology just the totally accepted principle as a response.
Majority of Sovereign Scots must want independence, no shit, who knew ?
Scotsgov have a mandate to hold indyref2, backed by Holyrood majority. So far so good.
We now need the ‘missing link’ .
In 2014 that was a S.30 order.
In 2018/19, what if WM chances it and say bolt, not having a S.30 ?
We then need a new delivery method, to get us from a referendum mandate to actual voting in indyref2.
My suggestion is to hold a protective political vote on a Holyrood motion to dissolve the Union to uphold Scots Sovereignty rights and Scots Law, CAVEATED by promising to hold an affirmation plebiscite at a date to be arranged.
The protective political vote means that MSP’s we voted to represent our interests, and protect those interests, are doing exactly what we sent them there to do.
After that, THEN we as Sovereign Scots, can instruct as to our expressed Sovereign will via resulting plebiscite.
Combining such a plan with Breeks claimation of Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty and all that entails, covers all the bases legally, as far as i can see, domestically and in the wider world view of Scotland’s position.
As i said, that is my suggestion of vehicle from Mandate to indyref, without a S.30, what would YOU suggest, Robert ?
Genuinely interested as i value your input as always.
Kangaroo @ 12.22
Oh were it that simple Kangaroo…. Ye did ask…
We still don’t know if Westminster actually intend to Brexit.
They still have ways to subvert it.
All the much discussed ways..
General Election
Second Referendum
Article 50 extension… Infact the only thing that’s been ruled out so far is a Conservative Party leadership contest??Now those were the … Known,Knowns.
And,And.. Up until last week,the The Unknown Known was ..
Could Article 50 “just” be withdrawn as if it never happened?
Now we know it can… You would think that the Westminster Government would want to clarify this as a matter of course.
Well you would,I would and most right minded people would!
But Naw … Westminster spent an absolute fortune trying NOT to know this..
So we need to ponder why this is??
But nevertheless
We STILL don’t know if Westminster will Brexit
When it will Brext
Or
How it will engineer to remain,and even to engineer a remain at the moment Westminster still has options that we don’t know with any reasonable certainty which they would opt for!
It’s probably pretty fair to say that if they did intend to remain they will do so to remain on their current terms..
So that’s a bit of a clue!!
We are being not only kept in the dark we ( the whole of the Islands) are being deliberately kept on “information overload”, all the while being encouraged to be bored by it all… So
The Scots need to wait till Westminster have to commit as much as we’re sure they really are committed.
Fortunately the EU have a bit of input here,and thanks to Ireland,are making “informed” decisions …
Then we respond…
Why are we “just” responding?? … Because of the 2014 vote that’s why!
So respond we must…. Then all the options that we across the Yes movement ( including your well thought out timetable)have mooted come into play… We’ll not be short of options,,let me tell ya..
Soon Kangaroo,we’ll know the road we have tae be travelling
Right Soon!!
geeo @ 1.21
Hope ye don’t mind,I know yer waiting for Robert’s reply.
But in the meantime…
What I took from today was that.
Each and every “vote” that Holyrood makes can and will be interfered with if Westminster thinks it gets in the way of it’s agenda.
There is,as far as I can see, no way around Westminster having our laws put on hold till Westminster adjust theirs to render ours useless!!
But — so far — existing Law is safe… Or at the very least better protected!
Which tells me we need to look to “existing” Law to act if we can!!
Liz @1:29am
I think you have a large number of options that are not going to happen and therefore we can ignore. These are
General Election,
Second Referendum
A50 extension
Revoke A50
All of the above are non starters due to the overriding need for the 0.1% to escape the Tax changes and keep their illgotten gains hidden. This after all was the reason for calling an EUref in the first place, every other reason was smoke and mirrors.
Consider that each one of them could accidently result in Remaining which would be counter to the 0.1% interests.
IMHO their intent is clear, either Mays deal or no deal and I suspect no deal is, and always has been the intention.
Nicola said once she had clear sight of which Brexit then it was time to go. I say that time is now as it is clear to me that they intend to crash out. They will leave the actual decision to the last minute in order to blindside the opposition, including the SG. If we call indy and they subsequently revoke A50 we simply say the conditions are no longer met, therefore we cancel indy. They will not revoke as the tax consequences for the 0.1% will be horrific.
We can also use the Brexit cliff edge as a weapon for our side, by having the vote on Brexit day. If Brexit day is extended for any reason we simply extend the indy date to the same day.
It’s gonna be a funnystrange festive this year.
11 days till the Christmas 2018.
17 days till the end of this year and Hogmanay 2019
Auld Lang Syne will call us all in.
“Are ye ready this year?”
Aye wonder what Mr Chris is working on and concocting for us for the weekend, maybe it will feature Jamie & his wonky torch, maybe it will feature something to do with yesterdays news or maybes it will be something else.
What happens in between nobody knows.
Let’s call it Friday.
Meet Jamie:
link to youtube.com
Aye it takes all kinds.
Just read Craig Murray’s take on the SC judgment.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Last couple of lines nail it in my opinion
Teresa May humiliated by the EU again.
This is comedy gold.
What a pathetic spectacle.
Humiliation or Independence?
Independence = self respect.
Here is an interesting way to declare independence if we deem act of union to be breached.
link to aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com
Just read this tweet about someone living in England who does not want Scotland to become Independent because they use their let out property in Scotland to get all the benefit of Scotland.
It’s enough to make your blood boil.
link to twitter.com
Apparently from reading some of the replies it is common place. 🙁
I think it’s terrific they way Europe can read Westminster like a book and sniff out their perfidious intentions from a mile away.
If only we could get the EU to negotiate on our behalf. I cannot imagine the ECJ humming and hawing about its legal competence being undermined retrospectively. It’s the equivalent of changing the rules of football to disallow a goal after the goal has been scored.
To coin the phrase, if you tolerate this, your children will be next.
REVOKE ARTICLE 50 ON THE STRENGTH OF SCOTLANDS CONSTITUTIONAL SOVEREIGNTY AND EMPOWER EUROPE TO BACK A SCOTTISH BACKSTOP THAT IS EQUAL TO THE NORTHERN IRISH BACKSTOP. THERE CAN BE NO BREXIT WHICH FLOUTS SCOTLANDS WILL TO STAY IN THE EU.
If our government hasn’t the guts to do it, at least we know the Europeans will stand firm.
EU tell England to take a hike…
We could be an Independent Nation by the summer.
GIRFUY ENGLAND,,,HELL FUCKIN MEND YE.
you deserve all the bad luck that is coming down the line.
Scotland will go on to flourish.
I posted this elsewhere, yrtis in all its glory.
The timescale is interesting. Calling them the Scottish Bill and UK Bill we have:
22 Mar 18 – Scottish Bill passes
17 Apr 18 – UK AG challenges Scottish Bill (within the 28 days)
20 Jun 18 – UK Bill passes
26 Jun 18 – UK Bill receives Royal Assent (6 days later)
25 Jul 18 – UKSC first hearing on Scottish Bill
There’s quite a lot of interesting things about that, and what might happen next time.
Brian Wilson supporting Corbyn. Who would have guessed. He is allowed to comment on a rerun tape of labour mp.bbc 2 fir the price of one. Brexit bad and good. Vote of no confidence bad
To spell it out, bearing in mind the UKSC finally ruled it WAS competent at the time bar one small detail.
Fuck the good ship England and all who sail on her.
Jamie is just thick. Christine Jardine is thick AND nasty a true BT zealot.
“I hope these English bastards”
“The EU have just given the English Parliament a severe boot in the chuckies”
“GIRFUY ENGLAND,,,HELL FUCKIN MEND YE.”
“Fuck the good ship England and all who sail on her.”
There seems to be a theme here …
Wee bit perspective…
If we liaise with Westminster under UK law, Westminster can, and just has, arbitrarily rewritten that law to suit its interests and compromise ours. Holyrood, our devolved legislature, the Scotland Act, the Continuity Bills… all that shit is uk currency which recognises Westminster as the mothership.
This is a world populated by dinosaurs like “North Briton” Gordon Brown, gutless invertebrates like Mundell who insist Scotland was extinguished in 1707, and advocates of our Devolved Parliament of Holyrood which routinely grovels before Westminster as it juggles with the gifts which Westminster so generously bestows upon it.
This is how the UK Establishment
exploitsgoverns Scotland.But here’s the trick. THEY need Holyrood more than we do, because without our voluntary fealty towards the overlord status of the United Kingdom, every business between our Nations would be between a Scottish Government, Scots Law and Scottish Sovereignty , and an English Government with English Law and an English Sovereign Monarch.
Our Scots law is sacrosanct under the Treaty of Union. Our Scottish Sovereignty is archaic but unaltered since the 14th Century and furthermore legally affirmed by the Claim of Right Legislation WHICH WESTMINSTER is bound to respect.
So that leaves at issue the disposition of Scotland’s Government, which do date has been content to ignore and denigrate the Constitutional Sovereignty of our country, and the ascendancy of Scots Law wherever it occurs in our land.
Nevermind the dubious illegitimacies of Tony Blair’s UK Supreme Court. Your concept of UK referendums, your Section 30 agreements, your Devolved responsibilities, the reserved powers over Broadcasting, EVERYTHING from one end of the spectrum to the other, even Holyrood itself, is all part of the great illusion. It is a spell. Once a part of it is broken, none of it exists.
Sticks in my craw that Nicola Sturgeon had already trampled all over the concept of popular Scottish Sovereignty within hours of the Brexit Referendum, and the SNP should rightly be pilloried for backing that decision precisely as they acrimoniously pilloried those who dared to question our own wee Joan of Arc. Because that was the point when they STOPPED being the champions of our Constitutional veracity.
The ONLY action we have seen to articulate Scottish Sovereignty has the recent Appeal to European Court of Justice brought by a cross party selection of Scottish Parliamentarians UNDER SCOTS LAW. The Scots Law, which unlike UK Law, the Scots Law which Westminster CANNOT interfere with or overwrite… even retrospectively.
That Action was SUCCESSFUL. It is now on the statute that the Westminster Government sits below Westminster Parliament, which sits below ECJ Jurisdiction (for now) and an ECJ which respects the legitimacy of Scots Law that is distinct from UK Law.
Forget about Brexit, forget about IndyRef2 or EuroRef2, forget about Corbyn, forget about May’s leadership.
Scotland has an existential Constitutional dilemma on its hands. Do we continue to play the very British game of Colonial Monopoly where Scotland can only
win, lose or draw when the rules permit it, or do we come of age and stop playing games, and see the potency of our Sovereign Law working for us in Europe as just the beginning.Brace yourselves United Kingdom. Brexit is your mistake to repent at your leisure. We choose to exclude ourselves from your self indulgent self harm. Subservience to the bogus Act of Union, which saw us forsaking our Sovereign birthright for three centuries has been Scotland’s grievous mistake which will shortly be put right.
REVOKE ARTICLE 50. Scotland did not decide to remove itself from Europe, but chose to remain.
We do not need to walk out our open prison. Our open prison is in our imagination. It doesn’t exist.
I know very little about the law and even less about parliamentary procedure but how is it possible to pass a bill through parliament that can have a direct effect on the outcome of a court case under consideration.
The Scottish continuity bill was passed before the UK sleekit bill and found to be competent so surely any retrospective act that makes it incompetent such as the sleekit bill should be annulled because the way I see it what the uk government has done here is no better than tampering with evidence and if it’s not illegal it fucking should be.
@yesindyref2
End of the day, UK gov knew what it was doing when moving the goalposts and why. Now, so do we.
They had a chance to support their own devolution settlement, but chose instead to undermine it for their own ends which had zero to do with unity, partnership or democracy. So far this morning I’ve seen only one title which highlighted yesterday’s proceedings and UK gov’s shameful actions towards a nation partner.
One.
In any proper, fair and functioning democracy, (if the press were anything like our watchdogs), they should be screaming to the high heavens about those proceedings and their nature. It really should be front page news that UK gov stabbed one of the devolved legislatures in the back for personal advantage.
Let’s see who (if anyone) finally does and gets the story right.
It’ll kinda let folks know exactly who and what we’re dealing with. I’m guessing no one but the National and I’m betting if it’s mentioned at all it won’t bear much resemblance to the facts. If people want to change this state of affairs, then they know what to do by this point. We spread the news ourselves and we show those responsible (that’d be Westminster government) our appreciation in the appropriate manner at the ballot and at the very soonest opportunity available.
#we’repayingattention
Kangaroo says:
14 December, 2018 at 4:52 am
Liz @1:29am
I think you have a large number of options that are not going to happen and therefore we can ignore. These are
General Election,
Second Referendum
A50 extension
Revoke A50
All of the above are non starters due to the overriding need for the 0.1% to escape the Tax changes and keep their illgotten gains hidden. This after all was the reason for calling an EUref in the first place, every other reason was smoke and mirrors.
Consider that each one of them could accidently result in Remaining which would be counter to the 0.1% interests.
IMHO their intent is clear, either Mays deal or no deal and I suspect no deal is, and always has been the intention.
Nicola said once she had clear sight of which Brexit then it was time to go. I say that time is now as it is clear to me that they intend to crash out. They will leave the actual decision to the last minute in order to blindside the opposition, including the SG. If we call indy and they subsequently revoke A50 we simply say the conditions are no longer met, therefore we cancel indy. They will not revoke as the tax consequences for the 0.1% will be horrific.
We can also use the Brexit cliff edge as a weapon for our side, by having the vote on Brexit day. If Brexit day is extended for any reason we simply extend the indy date to the same day.
You could be on to something there, K. 🙂
I think the optimal time for Nicola to pull the trigger will be when the “deal” comes back for the vote (January?). There is a date? If, as I suspect, May cancels the vote again, then Nicola goes ahead anyway – the next day. If May panics and revokes Article 50, then Nicola simply responds by postponing the referendum accordingly.
Heck, if the BritNats can keep cancelling and kicking down the road, then so can we. 🙂
That’s what they want Car guy, us to not get any news, other than from the news from them,
The 21st January is currently being banded about as the date for a vote on May’s “deal”. Aye Right!
Nicola should pull the trigger on 22nd.
If, as I suspect, May postpones the vote again on the 21st, then Nicola should still go ahead and say (to the effect): “this is getting ridiculous, we are at the cliff edge! Indy Ref is on!”.
If May then panics and revokes Article 50, then Nicola should postpone the indyref accordingly. Simples.
Give em a taste of their own medicine. 🙂
yesindyref2
If Scot Parl passes an indyref bill, it’s not yet the LAW. It requires Royal Assesnt to become LAW. UK Parl. changes the Scotland Act LAW while Indyref bill is waiting to go to Supreme Court (SC).
At the point in time when the SC is looking at the Indyref bill, The Scotland Act (the LAW) will then say referendums are not within Scot Parl powers.
So SC will say the bill cannot become law, as it’s against UK law as it then currently stands, even though, at the time it was passed it was within the powers of the Scot Parl.
Because, as in the Continuity Bill, even though the Scot Parl had passed the legislation first, before the UK EU Withdrawal Bill, the CB ISN’T law until given Royal Assent, so the effect is when considered by the SC the UK legislation is THE law and THE LAW now says that Scot Parl bill cannot become law.
Wull
Loved your post at 12.03 re “normally”. Deft.
@Macart
Well, unusually I’d draw attention to the posting of Colin Alexander 🙂
I wonder if the Holyrood Bill was just a step – and a trap.
@yesindyref2
Safer to say that UK gov weren’t the only ones who knew EXACTLY what they were doing.?
Well, when thinking of what we can now do to gain our Independence, the answer must be available somehow by the UK acceptance of our people being Sovereign.
They would have attempted to shoot the whole idea down in parliament if they could have found grounds to do that.
That being the case we must have some legal options available to us somewhere in order to dissolve the “Union” Due to Westminster malpractice, over many issues and very many years.
The evidence of what they do is there to find.They have broken and illegally manipulated the Act of Union, by in effect making sure that England is the main benefactor, and Scotland the servant of that.
This are just my thoughts on the matter, but why would the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland not be legally applied to end the union, if that sovereignty legally exists.
So we need to go down that route I would suggest,I would invite some legal eagles to comment.
England are rubber ducked!!!
Unsurprising, May doesn’t seem to be getting much out of her EU walkabout.
It has been very difficult for the EU to get the UK to actually agree to something. They won’t want to keep reopening the agreement that’s there. So May’s deal is the only one she’ll be offered.
Could a totally different government get something else? Could their be an EURef2? Could the EU27 agree to an extension of A50? I think we are all far too far down the road now for huge backsteps like that.
The options are …
WM accepts the May deal
WM cancels Brexit
Or, everyone just flounders on the a disastrous no deal exit.
IMO WM would be totally irresponsible to allow the last, so they need to think about cancelling!
The loony right have played their card. There are only ~100 of them max. The large middle(ish) ground needs to act soon.
@Macart
Possible the UK Gov were the only ones who didn’t know what they were doing.
@Macart
And the beauty of it is that, even if for some odd reason “they” were scrutinising every single thing I / we posted, it wouldn’t matter. I’m a child of the Cold War, and its bluff, double-bluff and double-double bluff. I don’t think I’m the only one.
Interesting to note that Christine Jardine’s tweet was sent at 11.59 PM
And, of course, that itself could be a bit of misdirection to waste the resources of the “confusion to our” enemies.
Colin Alexander says:
14 December, 2018 at 9:11 am
yesindyref2
If Scot Parl passes an indyref bill, it’s not yet the LAW. It requires Royal Assesnt to become LAW. UK Parl. changes the Scotland Act LAW while Indyref bill is waiting to go to Supreme Court (SC).
At the point in time when the SC is looking at the Indyref bill, The Scotland Act (the LAW) will then say referendums are not within Scot Parl powers.
So SC will say the bill cannot become law, as it’s against UK law as it then currently stands, even though, at the time it was passed it was within the powers of the Scot Parl.
Because, as in the Continuity Bill, even though the Scot Parl had passed the legislation first, before the UK EU Withdrawal Bill, the CB ISN’T law until given Royal Assent, so the effect is when considered by the SC the UK legislation is THE law and THE LAW now says that Scot Parl bill cannot become law.
If they try that trick on IndyRef 2, there will be hell to pay.
Surely they wouldn’t be that stupid (but then again..).
Now that we know what tricks the BritNat establishment will do (with the CB debacle, they have shown their hand), we can at least prepare for it.
The SG could arrange for ballot papers to be stored secretly etc. Get the Scottish police and judiciary on board, and then WM will have to send in the troops. If they do that, they have lost Scotland forever. Heck, I don’t want to go down the Catalonia route, but this may be necessary to achieve our freedom.
@yesindyref2
One more domino. 🙂
Jardine is just another useless incompetent. Dragged off the street. Ignorant and arrogant most of them haven’t got a clue. Most of the third rate unionists should not even be in the Scottish Parliament. Trying to take Scottish powers. Lying hypocrites.
The Tories moved the goal posts in Court. They will get an EU arrangement which will cost more,with less rights, and more red tape for businesses. They are totally incompetent. Useless. Sanctioning and starving people. Cutting essential services. Totally necessarily. UK Tax revenues have increased £95Billion a year. Yet the Tories were trying to cut essential services £13Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. The Scottish Gov has had to mitigate the cuts and has had the Scottish Budget cut. £3Billion.
Scotland still raises more in taxes, pro rata, than the rest of the UK but still has to pay off loan repayments on debt not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Forced to pay for what Scotland does not need but not spend on what is needed. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy. The Oil revenues were secretly and illegally taken to fund London S/E. Bankers and corruption.
Thatcher and the the unionist Parties left Scotland in poverty. The Poll tax and the illegal wars and banker fraud. Higher unemployment. The Tories total mismanagement of the Oil sector has lost Scotland 120,000 jobs. Osbourne and Cameron caused this mess along with their LibDem helpers. Clegg now off making £Million with Suckerman manipulating elections. Most of them should be in jail.
Yet people in Scotland voted for them. To make Scotland poorer. They are losing Scotland £Billions with their policies. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Trident, taking CAP farming payments, ruinig the fishing and Oil & Gas industry. Not investing in renewables.
May greetin face. It will all end in tears. How long can the lying psycho bastards go on. How much longer can this charade and chaotic mess go on.
Then again, if the BritNat establishment pull another SC fast one to thwart IndyRef 2, there is always the next GE to settle the score (mandate for independence). More than one way to skin a cat, as the maestro once said.
If they to interfere with that, it’s straight over to the UN.
We could have some bruising battles ahead. Be ready. 🙂
Is Scottish nationalism approaching a possible Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil dichotomy, old style legalist ‘constitutionalists’ tinkering with the status quo versus ‘radicals’ who consider the tactic fruitless?
The independence movement carries some dead weight. Time we got fit, focussed and ‘fierce’.
No to sleeping with the enemy!
More good news, Toby Young is now promising to leave if Corbyn becomes PM. Is it not about time some of our Scottish Britnat heroes stepped up to the plate, come on, there’s hundreds of us here willing to help you pack.
@Macart
Indeed, and with any luck it won’t be long before the UKG are chapping.
It’s to be expected the SNP will be infiltrated at the highest levels by Case Officers from MI5 and bugged too. They are presumably a major threat to the integrity of the UK state.
So, as soon as the FM discusses any plan, such as indyref, the UK Govt will probably know about it. So, I don’t accept this “playing her cards close to her chest” unless she keeps the thoughts in her head and shares them with nobody.
The UK Govt cannot reveal the SNP secrets to the media as facts, as the SNP would then know they are infiltrated or have an informer in their ranks, but the UK Govt would already be preparing to stymie the SNP plans.
“GIRFUY ENGLAND,,,HELL FUCKIN MEND YE.
you deserve all the bad luck that is coming down the line.”
Kenno – NO. Just NO.
I’ve come to the conclusion IndyRef2 is a non-starter.
For the simple fact that it remains within the gift of Westminster; the witholding of a Section 30 Order, the kicking of any Holyrood Bill into the long grass of the UKSC, the rushing of blocking legislation through Westminster, or a Cataluña scenario will kill it stone dead.
Far better for SNP party policy to change to obtaining a simple majority of bums on seats at Holyrood, on the back of a manifesto pledge to convene a Scottish Grand Committee to implement the repeal of the Union with England Act, (1707), via a UK Withdrawal (Scotland) Bill.
It has been demonstrated all to clearly this week what happens when Holyrood plays by Westminster’s rules – the goalposts get moved.
Time we just picked up the ball…
Luigi @9:01am
Having read the UK Act relating to the “meaningful vote” there is an inbuilt get out where they do NOT have to do anything further. Nothing. The process simply trundle on and without doing anything at all, the UK leaves with no-deal. The 21st January is a voluntary date and like Tuesdays meaningful vote can simply be ignored.
My suggestion is to call indy now for 29 Mar 19. The troops are raring to go, unleash the dogs of war.
So what can Westminster do
a) suggest they will remain, but they have to go through the parliamentary process and therefore it will be obvious to us if they have done so. The EU would have to acknowledge the revocation letter too. They won’t do this because of the Tax consequences
b) call a GE, so what, the EU have already said they are not reopening negotiations
c) call a “people’s vote”, they will have to do this very soon and declare the options too, again we can see them coming, but they wont risk it because if the people say remain the tax consequences kick in
d) if they do have a meaningful vote on Jan 21, that’s OK too, because it either passes and then we know we have Mays deal or it doesn’t and they are no further forward.
e) use some mechanism to extend A50, but they need EU to agree. I don’t think this will happen, but if it does then we simply move the indy date to the new Brexit day
So as Brexit day approaches we will already know what they are going to do and they will have difficulty hiding their intentions. Our footsoldiers will have already covered fhe consequences of Mays deal or no deal.
I think all bases are covered by this plan, can you think of anything I have not considered.
@Colin Alexander
I don’t think Sturgeon is daft, in fact for her interest in security during Indy Ref 1, I was calling her “S”, and that’s from someone long time interested in defence and security.
Luigi @9:01
I am sure Nicola has the S30 order covered. I suspect we will either proceed anyway or advise Westminster that if they Brexit without allowing Scots another vote then we will declare the Treaty of Union breached and walk away. Westminster would then have to go to appeal to the ECJ.
If that Tory chap Greene had a thousand times more intellect in addition to what he possesses at the moment then he would be thick.
@Kangaroo
Yes. Yes, I’d say Ms Sturgeon does have the vote issue covered.
Just for completeness have a look at the graphics here
link to taxresearch.org.uk
@ Kangaroo – not just the graphics but the comments BTL. RM has a very erudite readership.
I think one of the most important things to come out of the UKSC CB verdict is the question of competence.
It is now clear that the Scottish SG, can as the Representatives of the People, independently initiate and pass legislation which has UK affect.
The SC ruling confirmed that WM could only circumnavigate this fact by using devious means of trickery.
The crux of the matter is that Scotland has power, it has competence, it is competent.
Now combine that expression of competence with a more sovereign politic regarding our independence and we could be making an Indyrf-2 superfluous. 🙂
England’s Ruling Class cannot, and will not, exist in a democracy.
That’s the reason for the ‘mannequin’ democracy’ currently on display. All dressed up – but not the real thing underneath.
In the House of Commons, Scotland Wales & NI are outnumbered by England by a factor of 9.
A Scottish Parliament – with three English parties in it.
The d’Hondt electoral system to guarantee Unionist MSPs in Scotland – but FPTP in England.
Scotland denied independent radio & TV.
Scotland’s newspapers are 99% hostile to all things Scottish.
Get used to it, or get Independence.
Common theme you see is ‘You voted to remain in the UK so you must accept the UK wide vote’. They seem to believe the 2014 vote was a vote to extinguish Scotland and it should now just accept decisions made by another country.
They need constant reminders the vote was only to become an independent country, it did not remove any rights that Scotland held.
Apart of course from English MP’s making Scottish MP’s second class citizens at Westminster whilst retaining English MP’s executive control over the Scottish Parliament laws. If this is not an abuse of political power then what is, it’s like the Soviet control model, give them the apparition of control.
Apparently, there are approximately 165 Tory MPs whose salary is topped up – thereby encouraging a bit of extra loyalty for the PM should she need it.
Money talks, while also buying silence.
Kangaroo
Sadly there are many Scots who don’t want to defend what they want and vote for.
Links
Apologies if some of the following have already been posted, I’ve not had time to read the thread
link to gov.scot
link to indyref2.scot
Here’s Joanna Cherry on BBC News explaining how the UK Govt manipulated the law in order to sabotage the Scottish Parliament’s Continuity Bill.
link to twitter.com
link to indyscotnews.com
Mike Russell
link to twitter.com
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
link to peterabell.blog
link to spice-spotlight.scot
link to indyref2.scot
Alan S. Reid, Senior Lecturer in Law, Sheffield Hallam University on the Supreme court ruling
link to eulawanalysis.blogspot.com
Around 200 jobs under threat at Springburn rail depot
link to archive.is
Have at last looked at section 13 of the Withdrawal Act. Pretty clear to me that, now there is a negotiated Withdrawal Agreement, all but one of the PM’s legal obligations under section 13 have fallen away. /1
link to twitter.com
Thanks Kangaroo,
I’ve earned a lot this morning reading your posts.
My only concern is the revocation of Article 50. You seem awfully certain they won’t do this. I’m not so sure. There are powerful establishment forces on both sides of the argument, after all. Could still go either way, IMO.
We live in crazy times. 🙂
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
So @theresa_may got a an absolute kicking tonight.
thread
link to twitter.com
Prime minister of Luxembourg says
link to twitter.com
May is a racist
link to buzzfeed.com
@heraldnomore
Yes, but I got banned for just disagreeing that Land Reform Tax was the holy grail, that there would be victims of it same as council tax. A bit BC-like, hows dare you disagree with me.
On Newsnight a couple of nights ago a European politician basically telling Emily Maitliss to grow up. That is the level of journalistic coverage in this country, it is like some public school debating society game.
Politician’s being held to account by broadcast journalists that more than likely went to the same societies and are in the top 10% of the UK income bracket. You are never going to get the truth from those with such a vested interest in retaining the status quo and their privileged positions.
Dirty Lib dem
link to careappointments.co.uk
link to nation.cymru
link to politico.eu
Daniel Hannan’s MEP group told to repay €535,000 in EU funds
link to archive.is
The ‘Supreme Court’ bullshit ruling should finally demonstrate to all those on here that believed in the Scottish ‘Parliament’ as anything other than a puppet assembly to be sorely mistaken.
The dangerously wrong headed approach by the SNP of fighting for our rights as a nation on the premise of a devolved hollow assembly and simultaneously for a ‘UK’ Remain status has also been shown to be dangerously flawed.
The artificial and bogus creation of the Supreme Court, which I always maintained was the most obvious breach of Scottish law’s supremacy, and therefore the Act of Union, was a trojan horse designed to destroy both entities’ legitimacy has been fulfilled.
Unfortunately, our legal system, weak and anglicised, capitulated from day one. And it appears that finally, the SNP will have to face up to the fact, which was always the case, that our freedom can only be won through our residual fragile sovereignty residing with our MPs at Westminster. The problem is…do they have the courage to demand it
@Nana
Hope everything went well for you yesterday Nana. 🙂
link to barrheadboy.com
link to evolvepolitics.com
link to politics.co.uk
link to sputniknews.com
link to bloomberg.com
Theresa May was given a rough ride when she attended the EU summit in Brussels yesterday. Not that she would feel anything, such is the cocoon of disengagement she has created for herself.
May is disengaged in the way a suicide bomber doesn’t engage with other passengers on a busy jet, and who plans to disembark at a stopover, leaving the explosives in the hold to be detonated later, after take off.
May could be the worst Prime Minister in UK history, but that’s the least that concerns us. A no deal will blow a big hole in the UK, with a crash to follow, resulting in many casualties.
@geeo says: 14 December, 2018 at 1:21 am:
” … Maybe i phrased that wrong,”
The point is that the English kingdom’s Act of Union is as dead as the parliament of the Kingdom of England that passed it. It thus has no bearing whatsoever since the then new United Kingdom Parliament began on 1 May 1707.
On the other hand the Parliament of Scotland in 1707 was not put into permanent recess but only prorogued and was reconvened as Holyrood. So the Scottish Act of Union still belongs to the Kingdom of Scotland but it really has no actual purpose anyway.
It only was the old parliament of Scotland accepting the Treaty of Union and as from 1 May 1707 the new United Kingdom Parliament was the official parliament of both United Kingdom partners.
The point being that neither Act of Union is an active act as they only ended the individual kingdom’s old parliaments. From 1 May 1707 what began at Westminster was not the continuation of the Parliament of the Kingdom of England – but that is how Westminster has treated it ever since.
Unfortunately it was also how the sovereign people of Scotland accepted it as the de facto parliament of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland as being not really a fully sovereign partner in the Parliament of the two partner United Kingdom.
The only way out of it now is not up to either Nicola Sturgeon, The Scottish Government nor the Scottish National Party.
It rests only upon the legally sovereign people of Scotland asserting their legal sovereignty and ending the union and it would not be right for Nicola, the SG or the SNP to do so. They need the people of Scotland to demand the union be ended and to date a fair number of the people of Scotland are the most bitter and active supporters of the continuation of the totally illegal de facto parliament of the kingdom of England at Westminster.
To clarify – it is not Westminster or the English, Welsh or N.Irish who are preventing Scottish independence – it is the unionist supporting people of Scotland and supported by the Westminster owned, funded or influenced mass medias.
It is pointless for Nicola, the SG or the SNP to attempt to end the union, or be perceived to be leading, a bid to end the union. The people need to be educated as to the truth of what the Union is and not what it has always claimed itself to be.
Quite simply the United Kingdom is exactly what it claims to be and is not either a unified country nor a federation of four countries with England in charge.
It is a two partner kingdom operating illegally as if it were the country of England devolving English powers to three inferior vassal countries and the way out of that union is for the people of Scotland to say enough is enough – the union ends now.
BTW: The Red Herring of needing Westminster’s permission to run a referendum is utter claptrap. No such permission is required by a legally sovereign people or their elected representatives. If you are legally sovereign, and we are, you need no one to permit you to govern yourself. In any case a referendum, including the Brexit one, are advisory unless their is previous agreement to uphold the result.
There is absolutely no need for Westminster to claim that Brexit is the will of the people and they must uphold it. It was advisory only and they chose to make it legally binding.
However, they have set a precedent in doing so and when we do hold indyref2 we can use that precedent against them.
Hey Cactus!
Yes! I’m up for a night out somewhere in Edinburgh on the 15th (we’re expecting a tich of snow, should be fun) or the 22nd and if Marga can find us then that would be brilliant!
I wonder what will have happened by then!!
Thanks Macart.
I got a telling off 🙁
I’m taking a few days away starting today. Have a good weekend everybody.
link to noncuratlexeu.wordpress.com
“England’s Ruling Class cannot, and will not, exist in a democracy.”
Get used to it, or get Independence.
Aye, @manandboy says at 10:35 am it is the same with the establishment when it comes to promoting Scotland, her people, culture and their achievements.
This quote is very apt and always makes me think of the BBC & MSM in Scotland:
“Deprive the people of their national consciousness treat them as a tribe and not a nation, dilute their national pride, do not teach their history, propagate their language as inferior imply they have a cultural void, emphasise their customs are primitive, and dismiss independence as a barbaric anomaly.” Reinhard Heidrich
For those who don’t know who he was:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Robert Peffers @ 11.00 am
Enlightening as always =)
And the more light we can pour on this grim union that should never have happened in the first place and the need to end our part in it the better.
Thank you Robert 🙂
@Nana
(West coast style)
You’re late with your links today!
Last night all but confirms no deal if my logic is correct. Everyone talks about the Norway option or a new referndum as a way out but in reality neither can now happen.
May’s deal is just the withdrawal deal. The ‘Canada’ or ‘Norway’ options are both future trade relationships to get to those require a withdrawal agreement first. Last night confirmed that May’s deal is the only available withdrawal deal on offer from the EU. Westminster won’t pass May’s withdrawal deal ergo ‘Canada’ or ‘Norway’ options can’t happen.
That leaves 2 options. ‘No deal’ or revoke article 50. Revoking article 50 would require an act of parliament and would in most likelyhood require another referendum. Where the question would have to be ‘No deal’ or revoke article 50. I wouldn’t bet any money on revoking article 50 winning but the bigger problem is to have a refendum requires parliament to pass legislation that would probably have to include extending article 50 and then hold a referendum before May. EU elections are May 23rd so the EU would need to know if the UK is part of those no later than end of April
May’s deal will probably not get voted down until January 21st. That leaves between 9 weeks to pass that legislation and a maximum of 13 weeks to have held the vote. That is extremly unlikely so ‘no deal’ is the only real option.
Why do all these ‘independent’ think tanks always spend their time raging against tax, even when there has not been an increase.
Speedy recovery Nana,
But pace yersel!
We will need you more than ever in the coming months.
Show Time is upon us (almost)!. 🙂
My first post though I have been a lurker for years. This is a question about royal assent for any constitutional lawyers out there. Hopefully not too O/T.
Given the sovereignty of the Scottish people, is royal assent for an act of the Scottish parliament not simply a formality rather than a requirement?
I presume a UK act requires royal assent to pass into law but what makes it necessary in Scots law? I can understand why the UK parliament has to seek royal assent given that it takes its sovereignty from the monarch but Scotland? Surely we tell the monarch rather than ask?
I ask this in the context of the continuity bill. I would have thought that legislation passed by the Scottish parliament is law as soon as it is passed and doesn’t have to wait for royal assent allowing time for sleekit tories to move the goal posts.
Or have they stiched us up on that too?
This morning I asked five people
“what happened yesterday?”
“How do you mean?”
“In London, relating to Scotland”
“I don’t know, I never heard”
Problem number one.
Average joes don’t know or don’t care about the technicalities and their implications.
Legal guess,
Holyrood only exists because Westminster says it does,
The power lies in Westminster.
The sovereign will/ power of the Scottish people is held there. Some powers were lent to Holyrood you can bet there is some legal twist somewhere about sovereignty being tied to Westminster.
Because no matter what Holyrood says or does it can, will and has been set aside by Westminster.
Holyrood can say and do what it likes but Westminster always has the final say.
UDI? Nope you haven’t got the power.
Brexit? Nope you haven’t got the power for international decisions.
Indy2? Nope you haven’t got the power to make it legally binding, and if you call it we’ll disregard it.
EU? Nope not getting involved with internal matters.
All sewn up nice and tight and approved by Westminsters tame idiots in Labour and Tory party when devolution was drawn up.
Tell me this is wrong?
Show me the cast iron legally accepted point, and not just hopeful opinion, that this is just a burst of frustration and anger at the useful idiots in this country that made this possible and sanction it with every inane vote for the Torys or dribling comment about SNP bad, close holyrood etc etc.
There is no British Bill of Rights, Britain has no constitution. Britain has always been afraid of words that may change the dynamics of its democracy (aka the ‘benign’ WM dictatorship) in Britain and in the ‘territories’.That is give citizens free and equal deliberation about the laws that govern their lives. WM however today does believe that fundamental rights and freedoms belong to the global citizenry of the 0.1%.
‘The British conception of human rights and fundamental freedoms is based on a general acceptance of the principle of liberty, an acceptance which is so fundamental that the existence of these rights and freedoms is taken for granted…The constitutional instruments of most of the territories are therefore limited to providing for the establishment of the Legislature and for the office and duties of the Governor, and the fundamental rights are not to be found in these instruments but in the ordinary law of the territory’
CO 936/179 Information provided to the UN Committee on Information from Non-self- governing Territories (1952).
Scotland -the country- not Scotland the territory, suburb of Lincoln, cash cow for WM should appeal to the UN. WM seems confused about Scotland’s nation status.
‘Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of these territories, and, to this end:
a. to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;
b. to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspirations of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstances of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement;
c. to further international peace and security;
d. to promote constructive measures of development, to encourage research, and to co-operate with one another and, when and where appropriate, with specialized international bodies with a view to the practical achievement of the social, economic, and scientific purposes set forth in this Article; and
e. to transmit regularly to the Secretary-General for information purposes, subject to such limitation as security and constitutional considerations may require, statistical and other information of a technical nature relating to economic, social, and educational conditions in the territories for which they are respectively responsible other than those territories to which Chapters XII and XIII apply’
(Article 73)
link to un.org
Scotland must decolonise and retire the office of Governor – many other countries have.
link to un.org
Yesindyref2, Nana is in hospital today.
So I guess, normally being so spoiled, we’ll just have to play tiddilywinks till Nana is back…
Get better soon Nana! We need you =)
Gonna have to go read the papers myself. Really miss Nana’s links! She finds such good stuff.
Thinking of you Nana xxx
Hope everything is going well today =)
AND TAKE YOUR TIME TO RECOVER 🙂
Maolbeatha says:
14 December, 2018 at 12:02 pm.
The indy war has entered a painful attrition phase. This was always on the cards. Noone said it was going to be easy, but we are making progress, slowly but surely. Rest assured, that this is causing much more pain and frustration to the other side. We ain’t going away. Big problem.
“Indy2? Nope you haven’t got the power to make it legally binding, and if you call it we’ll disregard it.
I can assure you 100%, they will not get away with that one.
And remember the words of the maestro:
“There is more than one way to skin a cat!”
Indy will come about eventually, but how it does, is anyone’s guess. Just by existing we are wearing the BritNats down. Keep the faith. 🙂
Maolbeatha says:
14 December, 2018 at 12:02 pm
This morning I asked five people
“what happened yesterday?”
“How do you mean?”
“In London, relating to Scotland”
“I don’t know, I never heard”
Problem number one.
Average joes don’t know or don’t care about the technicalities and their implications.
Excellent. Next time you speak to them, tell Scotland is now an Independent country and member of the EU.
It is pointless for Nicola, the SG or the SNP to attempt to end the union, or be perceived to be leading, a bid to end the union. The people need to be educated as to the truth of what the Union is and not what it has always claimed itself to be.
Pointless?
I’m off out to the garden for a while before I spontaneously combust.
Hey Nana! You popped in @ 11.04 am =)
Away and relax!!
Hope you are feeling better soon =)
Maolbeatha@12.02pm
Solution
A majority of Scottish MPs elected to Westminster on a mandate of Terminating/dissolving/ ending the Treaty of Union tell Westminster the U.K. is no more as it has been shown to not meet the needs of the Scottish people. It just needs our legal representatives to have the will to do this and the people of Scotland to vote for it. Please note this is NOT UDI. It is not possible for Scotland to do UDI.
I have just read Severin Carrell’s take on yesterday’s events around the Continuity Bill.
I have never read, even from him, such a one-sided, biased, totally wrong misrepresentation of events.
The biggest obstacle to Independence is the fact, Carrell and his cohorts in the mainstream media will continually distort and lie, to protect the Union – and the majority of the public will believe them: thereby proving, you can fool most of the people, most of the time.
Hi Ghillie.
Nana posted a pile of links between 10 and 11 this morning.
@
Maolbeatha says:”tell me I’m wrong”
………
Ok. You are wrong.
Did you read the SC ruling, or hear about it on the MSM ?
Mike Russell eviscerated Sky News Adam Boulton who tried to claim Scotsgove were “slapped down” fot “over stepping the mark”, by the SC when in FACT the SC found the Continuity Bill was competent in its whole form apart from the wording of ONE PARAGRAPH.
Contrived “sleekit” actions by WM meant they found a way to use Laws from WM to over rule Scots Law, and that, however you got there is Subjugation of a competent Scots Law.
That goes directly against the Treaty of Union terms which protects Scots Law forever (in perpetuity).
And why does it protect Scots Law ?
Because Scotland is a legally equal partner in the 2 kingdom union which formed the United kingdom.
The SC argument is that first to get Royal Assent wins, and then Scots law can be subjugated is one built on sand, when clearly laws at WM were employed as a blocking tactic to ensute the WM Bill won RA first.
As i said, Scotland produced a Scots Law Bill BEFORE the WM Bill, and that Bill has just been ruled competent in full, with a one paragraph caveat.
WM then contrived to ensure that their Bill was amended to allow it to gain RA first.
That as i say, is WM deliberately subjugating a competent Scots Law, whether it had RA or not.
Not even mentioned the fact that Devolution (Scotland) Act has been set aside as well, as clearly, the SC has inadvertently ruled that the premise of “What is not Specifically reserved is Devolved”, by ruling WM can take the 111 returning powers in devolved competences.
All that aside, Scots sovereign will is about to be subjugated by ANY Scots Brexit, so actually, the SC ruling will become academic anyway.
If the caveat for Indy2 is ‘When the terms of Brexit are known’ then ensuring they can’t be known seems like a good ploy if that is one’s overarching concern. I try to look at current events not having Scotland at its core, but it is increasingly difficult not to come to that conclusion.
Ex-post facto legislation is WM’s modus operandi and always has been. In fact if anything, it is what defines the ‘Mother of Parliaments’ as unique among those whose constitutions almost universally include clauses prohibiting such practice.
The EU are most certainly aware of this hence their current hard stance. There is no reason I can discern for the continual delaying tactics on every issue by WM, unless it is simply to obscure the terms of Brexit until it becomes a fait-accompli and Scotland is out with England – Indyref2 averted.
Until very recently I held the view that Independence would come as a result of an Indyref. However, I am beginning to think any Indyref will be a ‘confirmatory’ one after the dissolution of the Union. WM’s games are forcing that hand. With Scotland out of the EU and back in WM’s claws I think it is naive to think there will ever be an S30 or any recognition of even the validity of holding an advisory referendum. For giggles they’d probably just wait on the ball rolling and ex-post-facto even the legality of an advisory ref being held, if not repeal the Scotland Act entire. The dissolution of the Scottish Parliament will not be long in coming.
It’s not that recent events are a novel idea, the overarching potential supremacy of WM and its potential to undermine or dissolve Holyrood has always been there. We saw them remove powers already. The novelty is watching them actually going full Tonto. They are now dangerously insane and those who have crossed that Rubicon will watch the world burn, for there is no other redemption.
Taking the above as a given, I can see no other route to securing, not merely Independence but the protection of Scotlands existence as a Nation, than a dissolution of the Union by the Scottish Parliament if they have the backbone. Surely there are some ‘conservative unionists’ as opposed to the hardcore, who must see what is unfolding and recoil in horror from the extermination of Scotland as a Nation? Just enough backbone for a Parliamentary majority.
Sure, hold a confirmatory referendum, the outrage and resulting stooshie will probably demand it, which is different from rejecting the premise entirely as presently. It ‘should’ also focus the attention of Scotland’s poulation on the issues at hand. For you will go old and grey awaiting the MSM to inform them. But such a stooshie would be too much to keep the lid on.
At least that route allows for a ballot option of a New Treaty of Union, which ‘should’ nominally preserve Scotland as a Nation if they win again. Without it the Hardcore Unionists will consign Scotland to the dustbin of history within our lifetime.
This ‘race to Royal Assent’ argument wins the day is a bit like 2 guys racing over a marathon distance, they both run the entire distance side by side, but in the last 100 yards before the line, one guy trips the other and pushes him over.
The cheat crosses the line in 1st place, but clearly he has ZERO chance of keeping his ill-gotten prize
Share this far and wide folks:
Mike Russell eviscerating Sky News Adam Boulton
link to youtube.com
Maybe this will help educate them @Maolbeatha says at 12:02 pm
Mr., Callachan and people like me who agree with you about in comers not to have a vote on Scotland’s future those who talk against our views are under the guise of. Wanting independence doing the things that will help to prevent it happening as I have said in The last ref., 80 per cent of Incomers voted no and that is a fact it is only people like us who seem to want to win although the others say they do but do not want to stop all the loopholes that beat us the last time
Bah! Humbug Christmas shopping. 🙁 Glad to get in again.
Take care Nana! Lots of folks on here thinking of you. 🙂
Robert Peffers@11.00am
“It is pointless for Nicola, the SG or the SNP to attempt to end the Union, or be perceived to be leading, a bid to end the Union.
Utter claptrap, to borrow someones favourite phrase. I can only assume this nonsense has been included to see if your posts are being read. If not the SNP who?
It’s time some people on here stopped making derogatory remarks about the English. The people who are doing everything they can to subvert Scotland are the Brits. In particular it is the Brits in Scotland who are deliberately selling out Scotland. They are the Vichy Jocks and if it wasn’t for them Scotland would be independent today.
The ordinary decent English person is not our enemy. They, like us, just want to get on building a decent life for themselves. The Brits amongst them, on the other hand, have the same delusions of superiority as their North British cousins. They have treated the common English person with the same contempt that they have treated us and everyone else when the opportunity has arisen.
We have common purpose with English people in ridding our respective countries of the scourge of brutish British values of conceit and contempt for others. English people, just like us. want to live civilised lives that don’t involve attacking and destroying the lives of their neighbours. We need to be clear that it is the Brits and not the English who are our adversaries.
That Twitter poll I put up last night has had over 800 votes.
The question was, basically, what about Ken Mackintosh?
67% Resign
10% Be suspended
11% Apologise to Parliament
12% Explain his behaviour
Kangaroo@9.54am
I like your thinking there..!
Brexit day referendum.
One small point, maybe have it the day before, as the votes will not be counted before 11pm when brexit becomes official ?
May has failed, the MSM is now tasked to declare it was the EU’s fault, already the Times angle it seems. No doubt BBC will follow this line.
Perhaps of course they logged how the wording of the devolution settlement allowed the UK government to change the rules at its whim and didn’t fancy having any ambiguous wording.
@Arthur Thomson.
Well said, and needed saying again.
How come naebd’y telt us, ah didnae know that, that wisnae oan the news, sumdy shoulda sorted that, ah thought the government goat a deal, whits the point o Sturgeon if she disnae dae anything exept bang oan aboot Independence, she shoulda dun sumthin
We’ve all heard these people there’s loads of them, now we could call them thick, we could call them lazy, we could call them a whole ton of names and they’d deserve most of them but from time to time they all look at the news, they have a radio in their house or car, they all read a paper or somebody in their family does
These people don’t go through their lives banging into things so why don’t they know anything about anything
Whose fault is this? Who’s the real enemy of information?
The very first thing Scotland will need to do *IF* we win Independence is sort these *information providers* right out and replace them with real *information providers*
O/T but mibbies one of the knowledgable lot on here
will have an answer.
at FMQs Niccola said that the supposed ‘increase’ in the Westminster budgetary allocation was essentially an accounting anomaly not money that could be spent.
Can anyone provide an explanation on this?
TIA
Cubby 12.53pm
I agree, as i keep pointing out, the notion of a Protective political dissolution motion is CAVEATED with a promise to hold an affirmation Plebiscite, so infact the Holyrood parliament would a) be doing their job, protecting Scotland’s integrity, and b) referring the final say to the people.
That id a natural road-map to provide a referendum should WM tell us to bolt for a s30 referendum.
If Nicola announces an indyref and WM agrees on a S.30/edinburgh agreement mk2, then we will not need any of the above.
The above scenario is merely a means to produce a plebiscite without s30 arrangements.
How else do we get one ?
“We just have one, nobody can stop us” was the answer i got earlier, and i totally agree, however, Scotsgov / Holyrood will STILL have to take an active role in leading such an indyref, which contradicts what you are responding to.
If our Scots Parly cannot defend our interests, who will ?
Just have a whip round and run our own indyref ?
C’mon now…!
@Robert Peffers
“It was advisory only and they chose to make it legally binding.”
But would it not be correct to say that the EU referendum was legally binding in Scotland (due the the sovereignty of the people) and advisory only in England.
Also that Brexit is fundamentally unconstitutional as the Scottish People are sovereign in Scots Law, which is part of the British Constitution.
The nebulous and imprecise windbag Theresa May, is currently giving a speech in Brussels, which appears to be mostly nebulous and imprecise.
The GOOD, the BAD and the UGLY on the BBC today at lunch time.
The GOOD – Reporting Scotland report that homelessness in Scotland has fallen and is less than in E&W. Good news indeed but astonishingly they break their rule to only compare when Scotland is worse or just lie and say Scotland is worse. Don’t hold your breath for this aberration meaning a significant reduction in the BBC propaganda. Clearly someone not staying on script.
The BAD – the Maybot is getting nowhere in her trip to the EU. No deal Brexit becomes more likely with each passing day.
The UGLY – that annoying wee long haired Neil Oliver’s face kept popping up in extreme and completely unnecessary close up, filling the TV screen to advertise his new series. Yuk. I won’t be watching it. Oliver cannot be trusted not to fill his programmes with Britnat propaganda.
@Dr Jim says: 13 December, 2018 at 11:15 pm:
” … The Queen of England isn’t soveriegn folks,”
Wrong! Dr Jim. The monarch of the Kingdom of England is legally sovereign and has been as long as there has been a kingdom of England.
However, during the English Kingdom’s, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688 the English aristocracy that were the English parliamentarians revolted against their rightful monarch, (who the shared with the independent Kingdom of Scotland), and they deposed that monarch. The two still independent kingdoms with their crowns on the same person’s head obviously could not rule for the opposite independent kingdom so the Scottish parliament did not depose the monarch of Scotland and so began what the English, to this day, claim to have been Jacobite Rebellions.
The English parliament then offered the now vacant throne to Mary of Orange and in doing so they rejected the better claims to the throne on the grounds they claimants were Roman Catholics. Mary turned down the offer on the grounds she was not prepared to make her husband, Billy, her consort.
Which is why the Kingdom of England imported a foreign monarch but then proceeded to force that pair of foreign monarchs upon the still independent kingdom of Scotland but they also forced the two foreign monarchs to legally delegate their sovereignty to The Parliament of England. However Scotland was still independent in 1688 and there has not been an English parliament since May 1707.
How come then that Westminster can claim the monarch of England or the English Parliament has sovereignty over Scotland when Scots monarchs are not sovereign and Westminster is not the parliament of England?
Briandoonthetoon @ 12.39 pm
HUHH she never.
Naughty Nana!
Yes we need her. Yes we like her links. ALOT.
Should Nana be taking a wee, very needed and very deserved break to recover…YES.
NANA! BEHAVE.
Yet thank you so much.
But if and when you feel pooped please know that we will miss you and we will totally understand and be very delighted when you reappear =)
Now, please excuse me while I wheech back up thread to have a keek at some stuff.
Hi Nana.
Hope you get well soon.
Take your time to recover! I think we’re going to need you on top form soon!
Arthur Thomson:
‘We have common purpose with English people in ridding our respective countries of the scourge of brutish British values of conceit and contempt for others. English people, just like us. want to live civilised lives that don’t involve attacking and destroying the lives of their neighbours. We need to be clear that it is the Brits and not the English who are our adversaries’
All the above might be true Arthur…so why do they keep voting for Tory overlords and denying our sovereign rights to remain the EU?
How about another YES March in Edinburgh terminating at Holyrood to present a demand that Scotland exercises its Constitutional authority to revoke Article 50 as a discredited usurpation of Scotland’s Sovereign right to decide?
Scottish Sovereignty becomes Scotland’s Backstop. If May wants to Brexit Scotland, give her the Gordian Knot to solve of how to do that while respecting Scotland’s Sovereign decision to Remain.
Don’t stop there. Make it clear that Westminster’s UK Brexit is synonymous with colonial subjugation of Scotland’s popular sovereignty and therefore for an action which will be deemed to be a wilful termination of the Union.
Then maybe explain to me why we DIDN’T do this in 2016.
link to archive.is
Fee for travelling to EU post brexit revealed.
@ lochside
Why did the Scots keep voting for their Labour overlords even when they knew they were being screwed by them? Because until the SNP were able to offer a meaningful choice, the alternatives were between rubbish and garbage. The English went for rubbish while the Scots opted for garbage. English people are still faced with the same choices until somehow a civilised option emerges.
The propaganda of the media in England is different but no less insidious than the Brit propaganda in Scotland. People in England are being told that they are the greatest even when the facts of life for the ordinary English person are anything but great. The myth of British superiority is being pumped daily into English people to the point that they are required to believe it and espouse it. It has been so for centuries and it is the counterpoint to the Scottish cringe. I see more and more evidence that the internet is disabusing English people of this rubbush. We need to celebrate that and encourage a genuine sense of common purpose and friendship with our neighbours – the precise opposite of British values.
Don’t talk nonsense.
English and British are one and the same thing
England , Englands people , Westminster , UK , Britain its all just one thing …England
England controls Scotland by continually telling Scottish people exactly what you are saying, that it’s not English people that subjugate Scotland it’s British people ? What absolute nonsense, it’s plain and clear and fact that Westminster is the hub of that control and it is English people yes English people who vote the MP,s into power in Westminster ,they do after all have 85% of the vote in Westminster as opposed to the 15% that Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have.
People like you make me sick you crawl out of somewhere dark and dingy and start this propaganda nonsense about English people being on our side asi if it’s some unseen force of fairies hidden in the tall grass that steals Scotlands resources disables its laws and parliament and persecuted our young people with austerity and poverty for goodness sake give it a rest.
To ARTHUR THOMSON…..Don’t talk nonsense.
English and British are one and the same thing
England , Englands people , Westminster , UK , Britain its all just one thing ..it’s .England
England controls Scotland by continually telling Scottish people exactly what you are saying, that it’s not English people that subjugate Scotland it’s British people ? What absolute nonsense, it’s plain and clear and fact that Westminster is the hub of that control and it is English people yes English people who vote the MP,s into power in Westminster ,they do after all have 85% of the vote in Westminster as opposed to the 15% that Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have combined.
People like you make me sick you crawl out of somewhere dark and dingy and start this propaganda nonsense about English people being on our side asi if it’s some unseen force of fairies hidden in the tall grass that steals Scotlands resources disables its laws and parliament and persecuted our young people with austerity and poverty for goodness sake give it a rest.
Arthur Thomson:
‘because until the SNP were able to offer a meaningful choice, the alternatives were between rubbish and garbage. The English went for rubbish while the Scots opted for garbage. English people are still faced with the same choices until somehow a civilised option emerges’.
Sorry Arthur that’s rubbish…the English electorate votes right wing tories and labour into power consistently. They’ve had their own alternative: UKIP//…yeah nice ‘civilised options’ there eh?
I don’t know why people like you with your holier than thou approach to English voters whether here or in England can’t differentiate between cultural/political differences as opposed to racial/racist ones?
If a million Ulster prods came over Boris Johnson’s bridge ( if it ever got built) would I welcome our kith and kin?…not f*cking likely..as they are unregenerate Unionists. So it’s not about blood and soil..it’s about how people see themselves politically and which identity they espouse.
Pity you guys can’t be civil. I stand by my perspective.
Pedro @
Welcome aboard,and mind and no let your first post be your last!!
Only just on this thread so sorry for the delay in answering.
Anyhoo..
Every Parliament has someone who “actually” signs the Laws.
that “someone” is usually the head of state.
In America for Example that’s Trump.
For Holyrood law’s it’s the Queen,it is in fact her only actual job.
The Queen is Required to sign any law that Westminster puts before her no questions asked…. If she doesn’t she can’t stay on as Queen.
But Westminster also wrote the rules for how the Queen signs any law’s Holyrood gives her to sign.
They designed -a delay- to give Westminster the chance to check they approved.
They also made it so that if they don’t approve the matter will be decided by their Supreme Court.
All this was signed into Law by…. Bet you’ve guessed it…
The Queen… It’s a mad system I know but there it is!
Westminster has always had the ability to jump into that delay and change the terms and conditions for Holyrood.
But they claimed that’s something that they had never done and would never do.
They said only paranoid Scots would think it of them.
They even put a “New Law”in place to show they had prevented themselves doing it (Sewel Convention) after the referendum.
When it was pointed out that a Convention is not a Law,they said we were being daft!
Well as you can see, Yesterday Westminster proved beyond doubt, they can, will, and did use their loophole against Holyrood…
OK One addition to my previous post.
It would be good to throw a General Election into the mix as
a) In the Kingdom of England they would all be focussed on getting themselves re-elected,
b) we can campaign on both issues simultaneously
Just watched Tony Blair reassuring everyone that if there was a second referendum, and the UK voted to remain this time, he was sure that the leaders of the EU would ‘do everything they possibly can to accommodate that decision’. This confirms that Tony Blair is so far out of touch with current developments, and maybe with reality itself, that he has never even heard of the judgement handed down by the European Court of Justice.
That judgement affirmed that if, prior to the March 29 deadline, the UK were to unilaterally withdrew its notification of its intention to leave the EU, everything would automatically revert to the prior situation. In other words we would go back to the preceding normality: it would be as if the UK had never triggered Brexit at all. Brexit will simply eveaporate, and life will continue in the normal fashion to which, over the past few decades, we have all become accustomed.
In other words, the UK would then continue to be a full member state of the EU, on exactly the same terms as it enjoyed beforehand.
No ‘ifs’, no ‘buts’, no conditions – we simply go back to the situation before the EU referendum ever existed. And this happens automatically. Of itself. That is the legal situation. There is nothing – absolutely nothing – that can prevent it from happening. The other EU leaders cannot either impede it or, indeed, foster it. There is nothing they can do about it at all.
Neither one way, nor the other way. They have nothing whatever to say on the matter. That is the straightforward legal implication, the plain fact arising from the decision of the European Court of Justice. Against which there is no appeal.
So why is Tony Blair talking as if the EU leaders will have to do something to ‘accommodate’ a new decision of the people of the UK to remain in the EU? So long as that new decision is taken prior to March 29, there is nothing to be accommodated – the thing just happens automatically.
What the other EU leaders would or could do about such a decision on the part of the UK makes no difference at all. Because, no matter what they feel about it or would like to do, they can in fact do NOTHING about it. It’s not up to them. They have no legal competence, and no power of action, in the matter.
So Tony Blair – surprise surprise, and not for the first time – is talking through his hat … yet again. Giving assurances where none are needed.
The whole Brexit business seems to be a sea of misinformation. How come so many of the ‘senior UK politicians’ who get involved, who attempt to navigate these supposedly uncharted waters, including former PMs like Blair, never consult the very clear maps that have been provided? For instance, in the present case, by the European Court of Justice.
Why don’t they check out the legal situation before they mouth off? But there is a deeper question here:
What is the role of law in a society led by such people?
If those who are, or once were in Executive power in the UK presume that, being the Executive, they can simply ignore the law – (or, which amounts to the same thing, ride roughshod over it, changing it at whim to suit their own ends) – does that not mean they can also ignore reality as well? Let reality not impede, they say, if it goes against what I want to do – because, after all, as the Executive Power, I DECIDE what reality is, and what it is not.
Shades of Alice in Wonderland here. ‘Words mean what I say they mean’ … And reality is only real when I say it is real … It may not impinge on me, because it is me who impinges on it, and I shape it at will, according as I wish.
And, having thus escaped reality, can they not then keep on living in those self-invented and illusionary worlds which are fundamentally of their own making? Is this not the politics of the ‘triumph of the will’? And is not the current UK full of the spirit of that so-called triumph? Called by other people, in the middle of the last century, ‘Fascism’.
And if that is the case, where are leaders of this kind leading us to? Where do they want to take us? What is the direction of travel of their legally rudderless ship? What is the fake reality they want us to belong to in that reality-avoiding (and ultimately reality-devoid) universe that they are creating for themselves, and for us, in their own feverish minds?
Like May, too … continually kidding herself on, and kidding on Arlene and – she hopes – everyone else as well, that a renegotiation which is clearly ‘not on’ is somehow still ‘on’ or will very soon be ‘on’ again. When – as clear as daylight – it simply is’t. And never will be. Kidding herself on that she can still fix her deal in a way that will get it through the parliament when she clearly can’t.
Here Rees-Mogg (think of him what you will) certainly had a point. With 117 of her 177 back-benchers – almost two-thirds of them – having ‘no confidence’ in her, she can no longer get her programmeme, especially the most important part of it – her ‘deal’ – through the parliament. And can therefore no longer govern. After the vote Mogg said on the BBC, surrounded (more or less ambushed) by Andrew Neil and laura Kussenbourg, that May’s next trip should be to the Queen, and hand in her resignation. Instead of which she hailed a great victory, and continues to career around in her alternative universe, dancing the night away to the tune of ‘Brexit my Brexit, / Nothing else on the table / I won’t unfix it / ‘Cos MY UK’s stable’ … Hers indeed! ‘Her’ government, ‘Her’ UK, ‘Her’ universe … ‘Her’ will, which everyone else has to follow …
Like Cameron, too, who pretended that if he went about threatening Mrs Merkel and the whole of the EU with the prospect of British withdrawal, everyone in the EU would automatically collapse at his feet, and cave in. Immediately giving him all the concessions he said he would need in order to prevent that disastrous scenario – UK withdrawal – from happening. Even though these concessions would flatly contradict all the basic policies the whole of the EU, including the UK, had already commonly – and laboriously – agreed. And despite the fact that the leaders of the EU had already indicated that such concessions would not be available.
Cameron just went blindly on presuming his self-concocted fantasy-land – the EU grovelling at the UK’s feet, just to keep the UK in – had some foundation in reality, when it clearly never had.
What planet are all these PMs and former PMs living on? Or what kind of weed are they all tripping out on, that fills their minds with such starry-eyed illusions? (And I haven’t even mentioned ‘How Now Brown Vow’. That mighty ‘Saviour of the Universe’ who delivered us all from economic meltdown by emptying the coffers of gold at the lowest possible price, and printing trillions of unbacked debt-notes instead, their only guaranteeing being to keep countless unborn generations chained up in a lifelong debtors prison for ever and a day … That Brown one who just carries on flinging his arms about and spiting his nonsense – mooing at the moon – as if his vow automatically delivered what it promised just because he had said it. Despite all evidence – blatant evidence – to the contrary … Where’s that near-federalism now? That strongest devolved – or did he mean ‘dissolved’? – parliament in the world …? )
What are the requirements to become the political leader = Prime Ministers like these – of this failed state, the UK? Is it a condition that you must live in a concocted universe of your own making? Somewhere where you are, perhaps, the hero of your own video game which you yourself imagine and invent, control and emerge triumphant? Must there be no prospect of reality or law ever interfering with the fantastic web you weave – you Spiderman, you! – or intervening to bring you back down to earth …?
Why is the UK continually led by the blind and the arrogant, the ignorant and the deluded? Why are the legal controls on these people so ineffective, so limited and useless and downright shambolic? How come we are led by fantasists? Why are there so few reality checks on the strange worlds they inhabit?
Does every PM go off his or her head after a few months in office (if not before)? Do they think they can do anything they want, achieve anything they like, maybe even become whoever they want to be (the Savious of the Universe, for instance?)?
Is it because the whole thing – the whole built-on-sand, head-in-the-sand, oh-so-temporary castle-of-sand which is the UK (look how fast the tide is coming in) is actually just a giant scam, a sham, a whole make-believe world built on – precisely – nothing? Something which is so precarious it is fundamentally – in its basis – non-existent? That despite all its overweening pride and patronising superiority what lies under our feet is – in fact – quite simply, nothing. Nothing at all … As if we are standing on a puff of smoke which we once believed to be a rock – wan blaw, an’ it’s gone1
Can an elected dictatorship ever, any longer, produce a sane government?
And why on earth should Scotland be thirled to such a vainglorious and empty thing?
We need the rule of law, we need a written constitution, we need properly accountable politicians, we need to live in a country which lives in reality. A country we can call our own, because we are no longer afraid to take responsibility for it, and for ourselves. A place where we decide responsibly for ourselves what we do, and become. And how we live with our neighbours in the Europe where we happen to be situated, in the specific place where we are and which we should not even want to escape from … as well as in the world at large.
We need to get out of – and indeed break up – that Fantasy-Land that calls itself the UK. That entity created by illusionists and contortionists (and dis-tortionists) which does not know its place in the world any more. Which in fact has so much lost its bearings that it no longer has any sense of place at all. It has gone so wildly mad that it cannot even recognise the reality of its own geographical location …
Like some poor man with Alzheimer’s who left his house in the morning and can’t find his way back again in the afternoon. And who is therefore destined to wander the world, lost and confused. And pitied as he goes round and round, without ever finding his place again.
Like a country – our poor southern neighbour – doesn’t want to be in Europe, which just happens to be the place where it is located. Having thought of itself as ‘an island nation’, England now thinks it’s a ship which can set sail to wherever it wants, becoming whatever it wants to be, irrespective of the reality that surrounds it. But wanting to be somewhere else, different from where it actually is, will not actually change its location.
One illusion has now led to another. England was never an ‘island nation’. No matter how much it liked to think it was, it always had a land border with Scotland. It was a mad idea from the beginning. Islands don’t have land borders. And nothing – not even 300 years of Union, with complete freedom of move
ment – has ever been able to eradicate that border.
There are those who would love to make it disappear, or who kid themselves on and try to convince others that it simply doesn’t exist … But despite all their best efforts (by which I mean their doing their worstest), it doesn’t happen. That border simply does not disappear. It seems to be ineradicable. It just is …
Independence for Scotland isn’t just an ideal to be attained or a goal to be achieved, or a fair hope, or one of these most just of just causes. Even if it is all of these things – and it is – it is also – quite simply – a necessity for our own (and others’) mental health …
When we do attain that independence – in Europe no doubt, and I hope most fully – we might even find we have, as a bye-product, saved our southern neighbour from the straitjacket for which she is currently heading.
Meanwhile, when is all this madness going to cease?
We don’t need experts to tell us that ‘Brex-itis’ is already highly identifiable, and will soon be classified as an internationally recognised mental illness. One that comes in various forms.
It will no doubt be seen as an offshoot of that even wider category known as ‘Brit-itis’, a disease so total and so devastating that it takes over the mind, the will, the body in all its organs and even the very soul of those afflicted …
It is understood that medical science is already working flat-out on a possible cure, though the strains of the disease are so numerous and tend to multiply so quickly that it is extremely difficult to contain. Some are even suggesting that the only way of helping those afflicted might be through surgical intervention. For instance, through developing a highly complex procedure which, we hear, might be called a Brit-otomy …
It is rumoured that those known as ‘PM’ or ‘Former PM’ might be the first on whom the surgeons will try out this new treatment. If they can help the most severely afflicted, they say, there might yet be hope for all of us.
Someone, get me out of here …
Superb, Wull….You went all the way down the rabbit hole for that one huh ?
If people knew about this they’d be ENRAGED!
Luckily for the UK Government the press are utterly compliant and will bury inconvenient news items for a small fee…