The jumping-off point
A few days ago (and by criteria unknown), Wings Over Scotland was deemed the third most influential politics blog in the UK, which was nice. The #1 was LabourList, which today published a piece on last night’s two election results.
So let’s talk about UKIP.
For months now, ever since attending one of the party’s rallies in Bath, we’ve been telling anyone who’d listen that while UKIP supporters might well be right-wing reactionaries and xenophobes, they’re not morons. The biggest crowd cheers at the event weren’t for the policies on the EU or immigration – though those got very big cheers – but those of contempt for the mainstream political parties.
What I’ve told countless people is that while UKIP voters very much want the UK out of the EU – after all, until just a few days ago the party had no other official policies – they won’t just blindly vote UKIP out of hatred of Europe. Back in April I said they’d vote tactically to ensure Ed Miliband didn’t become Prime Minister, and last night provided some stark evidence for that belief.
Douglas Carswell’s victory in Clacton, even the size of it, wasn’t really much of a shock. The ideological gulf between the Tories and UKIP is a pretty small one, and as something of a renegade MP with a substantial personal vote, Carswell was always likely to record a comprehensive win. What was much more dramatic was the result in Heywood and Middleton, where despite polls putting Labour 20 points in front UKIP slashed their majority to a perilous 600-odd votes.
Heywood and Middleton has been a safe Labour seat for decades. In 1997 the winning candidate got almost three times as many votes as the runner-up. But by last night more than 60% of those Labour votes had vanished, the 1997 tally of almost 30,000 collapsing to a little over 11,000. And while by-elections can normally be dismissed as a protest vote, that doesn’t work when the incumbent is the opposition.
For two years or more, the opinion polls have shown Labour narrowly in the lead over the Tories. But the rarely-told story is that the party has been consistently 10 to 15 points behind the combined right-wing vote of the Tories and UKIP. What Heywood and Middleton showed, as we’ve been saying all year, is that when it comes to the crunch that right-wing vote will mobilise intelligently and tactically to do everything it can to keep Ed Miliband out of Downing Street.
Last night Labour clung on by its fingertips, complacently talking about a fractional increase in its vote share (from the low point of 2010) as the Lib Dem and Tory votes alike vanished to UKIP. If anything like that pattern were to be repeated nationwide next May, Labour would be simply swept away by the tide. The voters of England will do to Labour what Scotland did to the Tories in the 1990s.
And what’s their answer? The most influential politics blog in the country (apparently) prescribes as the solution that “Labour is going to have to talk about immigration and welfare”. We asked the LabourList editor what he actually meant by that and got no reply, but we think it’s safe to say that he DOESN’T mean the party should move to the left on those issues.
In other words, Labour is going to continue with the same irrational, desperate pandering to the right that brought about the rise of UKIP in the first place. Mistaking Einstein’s definition of madness for advice, it will burn its own heartlands to the ground fighting a battle it can never hope to win.
These are the policies UKIP will fight the 2015 election on, dragging the Tories and Labour with them. We invite the less-sane among our readers to tell us that Ed Miliband can win an election on those issues, with nothing to offer but an insulting, derisory “increase” to the minimum wage and a brief pause in rising energy bills (paid for by clawing back billions more from the disabled).
Get ready for 2017, folks. There might be an unexpected second chance coming.
Ah so true Rev; Labour and the definition of Madness.
Shame the proud ‘No Thankx’ Scots fall into that self same category.
Killing Joke : Madness / anyone ???
link to youtube.com
What do you get when you mix Red Tory with Blue Tory so finely you cannot distinguish between them? Purple Tory!
2016 slogan “Keep the Tories out of Scotland. Vote SNP.”
or even “Kick the Tories out of Scotland. Vote SNP.”
YES BUT surely Shirley Scotland is soon going to have more Panda’s that Labour MP’s.
Getting them out of Hollyrood is a different ball game with PR in place and not FPTP
But the present Labour party is dead in Scotland…..and unlike BTNT they wont have the MSN and the BBC to fool the Scottish electorate again
Its not just 2017…
Its May 2015 for the General Election.
We need to vote tactically for Pro-Indy Candidates (which given its first past the post means only SNP have a chance)
Then in 2016 we need a Pro-Indy Holyrood returned in majority (SNP, Greens, SSP) so that we can capitalise on the failure to deliver the ‘Vow’ and the EU Ukipper antics.
We held together for 2 years before… we can do 17 months more.
Sheesh not even sure which year we’re in!
Should be 2015 slogan
Unfortunately I don’t think so.
The Establishment i.e. The City of London will campaign to remain in the EU. They will threaten thousands of job losses. Overseas banks with large presence in London have already stated they will move to Paris or Frankfurt.
Obama has already stated the case. Bear in mind the US Fed supplied 80% of the total payments to UK banks.
Excellent analysis.
The bloc of slab MPS are crucial to london labour come the election,hence the msm daily attack on SNP. Vote labour out of Scotland
Bang on the money Stu! I believe that, much like the Tea Party across the ocean, UKIP are nothing more than a pressure group. Their purpose is simply to drag the political landscape of these islands ever more to the right.
Be afraid.
For whom the bell tolls?
(Ps. Excellent Stu. We know you’re No.1)
Agree totally Stu. ‘re minimum wage if it had kept up with inflation it should be something like £21 so moribund’s £8 is derisory AYE
They actually have some decent policies in among the batshit ones.
I especially like this one:
“UKIP will introduce the Citizens’ Initiative to allow the public to initiate national referendums on issues of major public interest.”
I imagine it would have to be a UK wide referendum but if there’s a Tory/UKIP government that could still provide a decent enough shot.
@Sneeky Boy -I mentioned on the previous thread that LFI are suggesting a vote for the SNP will allow the Cons in at the next election.
Since indy didn’t win – I believe their hope was a ‘true’ Lab party in Scotland – they have reverted back to support for Labour.
This is what we are up against, the always Lab folk find it almost impossible, no matter how personally damaging, to vote against Lab
I and I think many others agree that we are due another referendum sooner rather than later.
I think the overall feeling is that we were not beaten fair and square and that the unionists cheated their way to victory with the help of the establishment.
A vote for the SNP cannot let the Tories in because the SNP will not go into coalition with the Tories. There will be next to no Tory MPs in Scotland so whether Labour or SNP the Scottish seats will be resolutely anti-Tory.
The votes of the English will determine the next Government regardless of what we vote.
In terms of realpolitik analysis of what’s going on down south this is bang on.
Labour floundering even on relatively easy ground for a tiny bit of progressive politics is exemplified in the clumsy gesture politics handling of the Mansion-Tax-for-NHS nonsense; whilst doing nothing about the fact the central issue should be the overhaul of a flawed, albeit modestly progressive, taxation system (Stamp Duty). Compare it to the efficient, clinical, focussed, no-fuss job the SG has done replacing SD (building in proportionality) and you can see highlighted in sharp refrain that Labour has not only lost its way – it is being run appallingly. Wholesale leadership failure.
I agree whole-heartedly with your analysis Stuart. We must press home the advantage in May and have our act together for 2017 (by which time we’ll also be anticipating an unprecedented level of national disappointment engendered by a ridiculously short-sold package of Westminster ‘power-retained’ offers to Holyrood).
Sorry to say, but I care little for what the Greens and SSP get up to, in 2016, I’ll be voting SNP SNP.
The Rev and Wings at its best! Great article.
The rise of the right wing in England, dragging the whole UK with it, is the biggest threat to Scotland for a very long time. However, the rise of people power and the demise of SLab offer an opportunity to avoid the impending carnage.
“Get ready for 2017, folks. There might be an unexpected second chance coming.”
Yes, the stage is set. Failure to deliver promises, clearly not better together, right wing muscle flexing, useless SLab, and more people will move to the Pro Indy fold. As many SNP MPs in WM2015 as possible. A pro Indy again after Hoyrood2016.
Game on for IndyRef II in 2017 🙂
Interesting that the labour majority crashed so spectacularly. What does that tell us about the notionally safe Jim Murphy seat?
I’m gutted that UKIP have an MP but also delighted to see this as a pointer to the carnage awaiting the ‘North British – Scottish sub branch – Labour Party’. If I was a SLAB MP I’d be considering my future career options right now.
17 month’s Scott?
Hell that’s just a walk in the park Kadjansky! 😛
Well so far we have had a serious dollop of egg dumped on RED Ed and a not unsurprising serious kicking dished out to Eton Dave. Hang on though folks cause this round of total embarrassment to RED Ed and Eton Dave aint finished yet. Don’t forget that there is another up and coming by election due shortly in Rochester and Strood courtesy of Mark Reckless who won the seat in 2010 with around a 10,000 vote majority over Labour. 😉
Labour are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. Let’s do the decent thing and put them out of their misery at every opportunity.
‘Breastplate says:
10 October, 2014 at 1:31 pm
I and I think many others agree that we are due another referendum sooner rather than later.
I think the overall feeling is that we were not beaten fair and square and that the unionists cheated their way to victory with the help of the establishment.’
How do you think the new referendum will be? You think the establishment will be for independence?
This article shows how necessary Wings will continue to be in the years to come. Excellent analysis, thanks Stu.
In 2015, a vote for the SNP becomes an act of self-defence, and we need to get that through to people (or a Yes Alliance, if such a thing actually comes to fruition). A Labour MP will not stand up for Scotland – if it’s a Labour government, they will not push for more powers than the government is willing to give, and if it’s a Tory government, they will simply parrot the agenda set down by the UK party. There is simply no point voting for Labour.
“You voted Labour last time to keep the Tories out – how did that one work out?”
@Ronald alexander mcdonald
On the other hand, I understand that there are EU moves afoot to make the City a bit more responsible and bit less dependent on the public to bail them out when they mess up.
Combine that with bankers’ natural inclination to megalomania, sociopathology, irresponsibility, naked greed and a lucrative requirement to launder Russian and Chinese money, not to mention the power of the press, and, despite the City command perhaps realizing it may not be good for business, we could very easily find a referendum taking the UK out of the EU by a large majority.
Just a hunch, mind.
Another point is that the banks effectively control the Westminster parties and if all of the parties are pandering to the real notion of an EU exit then perhaps the financial sector isn’t as frightened of it as one might suppose.
Looking at the results at Heywood & Middleton I got the impression that many LibDems must have voted Labour to keep UKIP out.
The votes cast for Labour may have flattered them.
hello folks,
‘Labour is going to have to talk about immigration and welfare. And I believe that we have it within ourselves to do that in a way that speaks to voters concerns without pandering to the whims of those who want us to abandon our beliefs to the politics of the right’
bloody hilarious! ‘abandon our beliefs to the politics of the right’ sorry pal i think that fecking ship sailed of into the sunset with Tony Blair jesus wept..will they ever learn.
I repeat myself, prepare for another referendum folks.
“UKIP is’a comin to get you”
Here is the translation of the article published this morning by the French newspaper Le Monde :
—
In Clacton-on-sea, the UKIP prospers on misery.
It’s hardly believable at first glance. How reality can be so close to a grotesque caricature? On Pier Avenue, a stoned tramp totters by an old, toothless chap hunching over his Zimmer. Over the almost deserted wharf, rows of tawdry fruit machines wobble in the beat of ancient disco tunes interspersed by blaring ads for retirement houses. In the Jaywick quarter, shabby bungalows shelter, on the seashore, the outcasts of the English economic surge, over a background of marine breeze and seagull chirps. Welcome to Clacton-on-Sea, the seaside resort north of London where nobody spends their holidays anymore since the 80’s. The most hoary and most forlorn English town, center of the constituency which elected Thursday the first MP of the UKIP, an anti-european and xenophobic party.
Douglas Carswell, aged 43, has been ruling over this town, torn between poor retired and disgraced young people, for ten years. This charismatic MP, elected in 2005, has tantalized the party of the PM David Cameron when it announced, August 28th, that he would resign his charge and wholeheartedly join, together with his supporters, Nigel Farage’s UKIP, thereby causing a new election. Comfily confirmed by 60% of the votes, his triumph represents a perilous precedent at eight months of the general elections.
Matter of fact, it is difficult, in the streets of Clacton, to find a pedestrian that does not vote for Carswell. “He’s unlike any other politician. He tackles our problems,” explains Bryan Marshall, 37 years old, a security officer with decayed teeth, who sees in “immigration and indue claims for social allowances” the major evils plaguing his town. “The flow of Romanians
and Poles who overcrowd the place just to draw on the dole,” adds Peter Even, about sixty, wearing a tracksuit. Hurry-scurry, one blames the EU “that funnels the English money”, the potholes never fixed, “the politicians who have forgotten us”, the street lightning that goes off every day between midnight and 4 am and increases nocturnal fears.
Right in front of the station, in his brand new GQ, the MP handles the gaggle of journalists with the quietness and authority of a general on the field. A photo of Gandhi, inviting the watchers to put words and acts in accordance, stands as a foil amidst various maps of the constituency highlighted with fluorescent markers. If one dares to relate the UKIP to the French “Front national”, Douglas Carswell chokes: the comparison seems “wrong, offending and lazy” to him. Ultraliberal, he doesn’t expect much from the State and plaids for a “radical localism”. “I’m neither a warmonger nor a protectionist. I love McDonalds, modernity and free trade.” Nativism? ”A trash concept, particularly when it consists in rousing people to fight against each other in order to be elected. No country can win without immigration,” he brags, while he still demands that “the government chooses who can ingress and who must egress. The UK is a big nation, but it is ruled by a clique of Conservatives, an oligarchy that cannot be punished when they are derelict in their duties,” says the defector who believes “passionately” that the UK must quit the EU.
This straddling stance, betwixt ultra-liberalism and the defense of Clacton’s indigents – eking out their lives on pensions or allowances – does not seem to nag the local population. “People follow Carswell like sheep,” dares a seventy years old, conservative-friendly man, speaking anonymously. “I dislike the EU, but I despise what the UKIP upholds, that populism which reeks of Marine Le Pen [the leader of the French National Front]. Carswell has canvassed the town, unfortunately, and I don’t see how he could be defeated.”
Back on the shore, the calicos of the UKIP candidate have blossomed above a rundown hotel. His conservative adversary, Gilles Watling, formerly a sitcom actor, has a more lukewarm position on Europe, recalling how much the EU represents in Britain’s economy. But, he notes, especially targeting the eurosceptics, that only the Conservatives have promised a referendum on the exit of the UK from the EU. ”Douglas is quite a local figure. People vote for him, rather than for his party,” he puts forward, trying to comfort himself.
Indeed, Mr Carswell had gained popularity as a Tory MP, constantly badgering for greater local powers, so as to recruit more practicians or hinder the settlement of families living on the dole. He had his hour of glory when he pinned a thief against a wall and congratulated the police on Twitter for rushing in. In some building entrances, stickers with his face show the motto: “I help you to fight crime.”
A huge building stands right in downtown Clacton: the former theater “Century”, now transformed into the “Gala bingo”. Inside, pervaded in a rancid odor, a few old ladies spend the afternoon in a vast and almost empty playroom. Without even looking at each other, they listen to a recorded voice that drones on and on the various figures they check on their bingo cards. Outside, a bevy of young unemployed slouch against the walls. A tattoo salon neighbors a wheelchair shop. In Clacton, the UKIP has found its promised land.
@HandandShrimp
The votes of the English will determine the next Government regardless of what we vote.
This needs to be the message that we get through to the electorate in Scotland. I am really fed up with SLAB types saying a vote for the SNP in general elections is a waste, and lets in the Tories. We do not decide the outcome of the general election, it is decided in the south east of England. It is the British Labour Party that lets in the Tories at Westminster.
I despair at the thought of Mr Farage,Mr Miliband or Mr Cameron being in charge from next year for a whole 5 years,then also dropping out of the EU on top. Mrs Merkel already told the uk that there won’t be a renegotiation unsuitable to the rest of Europe when she visited the uk during the indyref campaign,and that only leaves the out of the Eu option.
Any of the above leaders would then have total control to carry out their tory policies.
Similar to what I was saying in the last post Rev, UKIP will split the Unionist vote in Scotland. Instead of having three Unionist Parties in Scotland, you will now have four.
UKIP will draw thousands of votes away from traditional Unionist Parties.
And if ALL pro-Indy voters get behind their local SNP candidate, then there is an excellent chance of the SNP having the majority of MPs representing us at Westminster.
I would also support a candidate from another pro-indy Party, if they had a credible chance of victory.
I can only think of a few who would have a chance of winning a seat.
Colin Fox
Pat Harvie
Tommy Sheridan
Dennis Canavan
Jeane Freeman
Brilliant REV
We bloody warned them this would happen. Now we have to get the Scots to the voting booths in numbers again. Great to have you back and inc racking form Stu.
Come on Wingers we have a country to free.
1st – SNP into GE with majority.
2nd – SNP/Greens/SSP win majority in SE.
3rd. – Vote to stay in the EU.
4th – Independence
simples.
Will Ed Miliband’s leadership of Labour and his policy vision get the Labour core vote out in enough numbers to offset dissatisfied Labour voters who, if they actually vote, go to UKIP?
Scottish Labour supporters are effectively delegating their political fortunes to what may end up being southern UKIP voters.
Time to protect Scotland from all this as that is all we can really control.
liz says:
“This is what we are up against, the always Lab folk find it almost impossible, no matter how personally damaging, to vote against Lab”
There are two immediate challenges. As you say, Lab voters need to be persuaded that SLab is not what they seem to nostalgically believe it is. That needs attention! Secondly the Unionists should be hounded over their Vow. Success with those will bode well for WM2015, but as always it won’t be easy when up against MSM bias.
Totally agree it’s the English that decide the UK govt. and until we get our independence, it pays to keep a close eye on the English scene. I’m on Another Angry Voices page, which is a left wing page, and very supportive of Scottish Independence in the run up. The kippers on that page are vile, always xenophobic. UKIP scares the shit out of me, and I’m really concerned they are going to put candidates up here next year. As I said last night, there are more right wing folk in this country than we think, the silent ones.
Jeez auld a how can people be so stupid/thick/whatever to be taken in by this far right crap. Can’t they see that it’s this ideal that has caused them to remain living in a bleak town with no hope whatsoever. Hell mend them
O/T but I see that “the markets” are down, Brent Crude oil is down. This was only meant to happen if Scotland voted YES!
Another lie from the Unionists.
Right behind all of that Rev.
The race to the right of UK politics is on and those who voted no, but are now beginning to regret the choice may just get that second chance if the winner turns out to be as expected.
I have been miserable for weeks post the referendum. The reason for that depression being the certain knowledge of the direction of travel in “English” politics.
My vision of hell is a deal between the Tories and UKIP which ensures a Tory/UKIP alliance in power.
On the Politics show today when the UKIP speaker was asked were he would get the money to fund their polices – one proposal was to claw back the “unfair” generous payments to Scotland.
If you thought Cameron and Osborne were bad…………!
ot
`Housing subsidy – 9 times more for mansions than for all of social housing!`
link to stilloaks2.wordpress.com
Agree Clootie! Depressed all over again
The thought of UKIP having control over any powers is a frightening one. But they are not going to go away just because we don’t like them, So surely we have to try to use them to our advantage.
They have got supporters in Scotland, just look at the last European elections. We need that UKIP support to come out at the 2015 GE and split the Unionist Parties vote.
That’s why Dougie Alexander is trying to rubbish them as some kind of protest group. Douglas Alexander (and all Unionist MPs)are in self-preservation mode, their very existence is under threat.
Our priority must be,
“Devide and Conquer.”
as usual you have called it spot on stu..i never thought about it but it makes sense once i filter it through all the debris in my heed….another referendum in 2017..the thought of that is enough to get me up in the morning
then we will have 37 years of oil left 😉
UKIP is just an upmarket version of the BNP.
it is very clear that their will be no investment in creating jobs, for the politically/economically disenfranchised people’s of the UK.
the political will is some form of workfare or another what ever it is called, working for benefits, underemployed, sick and disabled, and even as a pensioner, until you drop.
the home/buy to let/share owning democracy,and venture capitalists of the se of england, city of london £ domain, will try to see to that.
one nation = one party or political bias to global capitalist state, and controllers of capital.
labour must now either find it’s spine or vanish.
someone annoyingly implied in a peoples assembly vid, and to para phrase said, “scotland were given something worth voting for”.
NO! nothing was given, an indyref was demanded, hard fought for and won.
many before have worked tirelessly for many decades to bring us the opp to vote in an indyref.
i now owe them a great deal for empowering that and this continuing golden opportunity, their visions and insights will inspire for many generations to come, thank you.
link to dpac.uk.net
@AuldA
Intriguing article…
Wonder if that should be posted up everywhere for people to read?
Maybe the only people who can really see the mess the country is in are the ones looking in from the outside.
With 48% per cent of Labour membership based in London, and a higher percentage if you include the SE, then you know where Labour’s priorities are. As has been said before, the UKIP win (and a near win) will concentrate Labour and Conservative minds and policies on the South East that suits voters there. A vote for Labour in Scotland is useless and only counts as Westminster fodder to prop up the Labour London party.
From 2015 to 2017 we’ll see Westminster going into meltdown and we need as many SNP MPs (under a YES Alliance) voted in for GE2015 as possible. I believe the SNP are currently polling 43% for Westminster which is great from a position of 20% GE2010. But even better will be to push that figure to 46-49% which will cripple Westminster in Scotland.
Chalks,
I believe The Establishment will continue to do what it has always done.
When The Vow is not delivered I think we will have more than enough people to vote Yes in the next referendum.
Labour’s dramatic slump last night in a safe seat bodes well for their destruction up here in the GE next year but it will take a huge effort. My local labour MP has a whopping 12,000 majority and I will be making it my mission in life to put as colossal a dent into that lead as possible. The fact that 57% of his constituents voted Yes should precipitate that but it will take a big turnout from younger voters and thats not going to be easy. They need to be kept engaged and energised with meetings, rallies and protests thats why the indy theme must remain alive and kicking.
Maybe ‘PROTECT SCOTLAND’ should be the new SNP slogan.
There will be huge pressure by a right wing England to slash Scottish funding.
Both red and blue tories will be competing to win over the supporters of UKIP and Britain-First/BNP.
Labours next move will be to do a U-turn on an EU referendum.
O/T
Albaman
Catching up with your previous post about the Hope over Fear Rally on Sunday at 12 Noon in George SQ in Glasgow.
Here is a reminder of the details.
link to yeslocal.info
I and many thousands will be there as a show of support for continuing the fight for a fairer (Independent) Scotland.
And as far as I know, the weather is also in our favour.
O/T The guardian has an article saying the the BoE had contingency plans in the event of a Yes to protect the £.
”Bank of England was also ready to stand behind bank notes issued by Scottish banks in an attempt to reassure customers that there would be no immediate changes.
Bank of England would have issued a statement immediately reaffirming its responsibilities for financial stability, prudential regulation, banknotes and monetary policy in the entire United Kingdom, including Scotland.”
Some more ammo to use with folk worried about currency.
link to archive.today
Oops… I forgot to translate “Indue”. “Indue” = “abusive, wrongful”
English politics in rough seas today.
English people sick of the Big Three and the Big City.
Let UKIP flourish.
Up here, let 2 million No voters see how
they failed to heed the alarm
and missed their big chance.
But Scotland will have another opportunity;
with the English in turmoil, it is certain.
Let us all hope the 2 million
don’t press the snooze button this time.
Cracking stuff Rev, welcome back.
The 2015 election’s shaping up to be one of the crucial elections of the last 100 years. And if there was ever a time in that century where Scotland’s votes mattered less – ie in forming a UK government – it’s this one.
As has been pointed out ad nauseum, the WM parties can ignore Scotland and still win, but with the new UKIP kid on the block eating into Ed’s vote fodder in England, he’s got more reason than most of his predecessors to look north for help.
And this time, it’s no gonnae happen. If we could return 11 SNP MPs in 1974, then we can return a helluva lot more in 2015, and all at the expense of Ed’s Red Tories.
SNP has twice the membership of UKIP. Let’s send 50+ Nats to Westminster and see how they like that up ’em. In the end they’ll be begging us to leave
Yes, and Clacton itself showed a drop form 25% to 11 % in Labour support. In my time in the forums there have been a few UKIP supporters posting, and I think it’s safe to say that near 100% of them were NO supporters. This effectively means that, with a rise as will occur in Scotland for UKIP support, they will be acting to split the “Unionist” vote”.
It means that electoral caclulus and scotlandvotes are in fact, out of date, as they need to either add UKIP, or replace the LibDems with UKIP. It’s not just 2017 that could cause another referendum sooner than expected, it’s the 2015 GE. Labour losing votes to UKIP as well as the SNP, really could get wiped out in Scotland. Hooray!
Here, just looking at that picture advert of UKIP’s, I’d no idea that increasing GPS cover was a key UKIP policy. No wonder the people of Clacton voted for them – they’ve nae idea where they are!
I fear this is going to be rather hard to predict and hard to fight on so many levels.
UKIP is becoming more popular to many Scots and those who wont be happy freely admitting they have Tory leanings may happily jump aboard the new shiny bandwagon.
Talk of a Yes Alliance looks premature given the sad comments this week from Allan Grogan etc, seems Labour still has some appeal, and along with The Establishment backing any Unionist party while attacking the SNP then it could be Referendum Media II for next 6 months.
I fear talk of Greens and SSP big gains also seems rather optimistic if Im honest. Their membership may have increased but I suspect UKIP look more inviting to some Scots than those two Pro-Indy parties.
Interesting times ahead.
O/T – SNP membership now officially up to 80,000.
Peter Murrell on Twitter.
Hopefully publicity from the SNP conference in November will see another boost in new members and activists.
Maybe Nicola will give the membership page a wee plug during her speech 🙂
100,000 by Christmas?
Sorry, and Labour in Scotland losing out to the SSP.
I intend going to George Square and hear a rousing speech from Tommy Sheridan , among others. We need to continue to support events like this to keep the dream alive and kicking. A majority of SNP and indy MPs returned on 7th May ’15 to Westminster would send another shiver through the establishment ,even greater than the 45.
Macart says:
“… those who voted no, but are now beginning to regret the choice may just get that second chance…”
I’ve been pondering a ‘second chance’, a lot. I reckon there will be no Edinburgh Agreement II and in fact outright hostility to an Indy Ref II from Westminster. It will therefore need to be an ‘illegal act’ by Holyrood, but democracy supercedes legality in my mind.
2017? If the SNP win big in May 2016, what’s wrong with going in September? Q.v. 1997.
Discuss.
I think the majority of the electorate have little time for the two main parties, (tweedledum or tweedledee) but there is no alternative in England one of them will form the next corrupt and incompetent government, so many are voting in protest for UKIP. UKIP have got it easy, they don’t have to put forward unpopular policies but simply appeal to a large minority of the population’s prejudices and fears and advance popular (right wing) ideas on a few issues. This is a protest vote UKIP cannot form the next government but they can win enough seats from either of the two main parties to stop them gaining a majority and this will drive the two main parties to the right, making their policies in government even more despicable and disastrous than at present. No matter which of them wins the election next year we will get more cuts, more privatisation, more need for food banks. I am of the opinion because labour relies on the support of more left wing groups; they can have some small influence on a Labour controlled Westminster and therefore they are a better bet than the Tories but not by much. However I think the Tories will be the biggest party and will probably form another coalition.
I’m sorry but even if the Tories get in and there is an in/out referendum we will not be getting out of Europe.
Tories and Labour will come together to save their own necks. Big businesses will threaten their workforces, the banks will threaten to leave, taking a million jobs with them, the newspapers will put the fear of god into the working class, the economic pundits will tell us the stock market will crash, causing pension funds to lose billions and the BBC will do as it’s told as will the civil service.
Remind you of anything?
Ironically our best chance of independence from that vote is if everyone in Scotland voted to leave the EU.
As always, Labour will recognise the results as a message to re-connect with Middle England (their words) ie return to the Blairite/Thatcherite philosophy that delivered their previous success.
What this means is a swing to the right for Labour, camouflaged using smoke and mirrors to try to hold on to the unions.
Labour in Scotland has tied itself to the UK Labour approach; I don’t think they have dissolved the Lab/Tory coalition called Better Together.
An unknown in 2015 will be the impact of UKIP standing in Scotland. UKIP may take votes from all three BT parties.
So no tactical voting for me – I’m SNP.
@Oneironaut:
Intriguing article…
I liked it (and so thought it’d be nice to translate it and put it here) because of the atmosphere, this feeling of quaintness and almost total dereliction. Almost a ghost town.
As if the place had been forlorn both by Labours and Tories… and since nature abhors the void…
@Mary Vasey:
One often says hope is what remains when everything else is lost. But it seems those people have passed even beyond that. Scary. Remembers me of this quip: “The light at the end of tunnel is that of a locomotive hurtling full speed towards us.”
ronald alexander mcdonald says:
10 October, 2014 at 1:11 pm
Unfortunately I don’t think so.
The Establishment i.e. The City of London will campaign to remain in the EU. They will threaten thousands of job losses. Overseas banks with large presence in London have already stated they will move to Paris or Frankfurt.
Obama has already stated the case. Bear in mind the US Fed supplied 80% of the total payments to UK banks.
Don’t be so sure that the establishment wants the UK to remain in Europe. Farage has some pretty awesome power behind him. Unless the Cameron secures major concessions from Europe on banking reforms (unlikely) or UKIP pulls the UK out of Europe entirely (possible), the UK banking sector is stuffed anyway.
If I can return to my proper place on this site for a moment, the Village Idiot, then I’d like to throw an idea into the mix that I found lying just outside the “box”. 😉
For the Westminster General Election in May next year everyone works their collective butt off to get as many SNP M.P.’s elected as possible. Hopefully more than the 50% of Scottish M.P.’s with a majority of all the Scottish votes.
In 2016 we do the same again to get as many SNP,Green,SSP,Solidarity and independent independence supporting MSP’s into Holyrood again with the majority of the vote.
We would then have the majority of Scottish politicians in both parliaments having been elected on, effectively, an independence ticket and holding the majority of votes in both cases. The 2016 Scottish Government would then be in a position to claim that they held the support of the majority of the people of Scotland and would then be in a position to declare U.D.I. (Universal Declaration of Independence for those who don’t know what U.D.I. means 😉 )
Just a simple outside the box moment from your friendly Village Idiot here you understand. 😛
so the rightwards death spiral of labour is to continue. It’s vote vanished…a clear indicator that people are not happy with its direction. The solution? Step on the gas, 2nd star on the right and straight on till morning.
No wonder Slab are starting to sh*t themselves as they tell us to forget all that keech they came away with during Indyref.
i think, No voters are about to get an object lesson in how little their vote actually counts.
The proposed European banking reforms coming down the tracks are seriously unfavourable to the UK casino/ponzy banking sector. Either Cameron negotiates an opt-out, or we will be out of Europe. This is what this is all about.
Watch the bankers.
My tory neighbour is very happy with ukip, she says she “wants out of europe”. She is very confortably off with at least 3 pensions, living in a white middke class part of Edinburgh, I fear she is not unique either…brrrrr
How are Plaid getting on in Wales?
Are they going to do well against Labour down there?
handclapping says:
What do you get when you mix Red Tory with Blue Tory so finely you cannot distinguish between them? Purple Tory!
I never thought of it that way, but an excellent observation!
Lesley
There is certainly much to commend your plan although UDI means Unilateral rather than Universal. It generally doesn’t go down that well at the UN but they do come around in the end.
Kev says:
10 October, 2014 at 2:16 pm
Labour’s dramatic slump last night in a safe seat bodes well for their destruction up here in the GE next year but it will take a huge effort. My local labour MP has a whopping 12,000 majority
what constituency kev?
@ ronald alexander mcdonald
If the UK Establishment want to stay in Europe why are the State run BBC promoting so vigorously UKIP who are the only party that want a referendum on Europe?
If we do secede from Europe what are the ramifications regarding the TTIP treaty for UK.
I wonder if Obama will add his pish, like he did with us ,if there is a referendum on Europe .
`Europe is an extraordinary partner for America and a force for good in an unstable world. I hope it remains strong, robust and united.`
Everywhere you look, red tories and blue tories are turning purple with rage.
What if UKIP narrowly lose the EU referendum in 2017?
What if Cameron and some of his toothless euro buddies makes another last minute VOW to forcefully take significant powers back from Brussels. Will UKIP then just pack up and go home?
Like hell they will.
This is why you are rated Stu.
Perhaps you’d better start thinking of either updating the WBB or producing something new. I think we’re gonna need it!
My SNP supporting son did a fair bit of canvassing in poorer areas during the referendum . He says worries about immigration came up over and over again. However unreasonable that may be, such is the power of the daily mail etc. How do we, in a short time, break through that in the run up to 2015 when there will be the usual wall to wall Tory Lab UKIP and no SNP in discussions, debates, leaders debates etc on the BBC ?
491,386 people voted SNP in 2010.
Is it unreasonable to hope for that figure to double in 2015?
@Galamcennalath
Well mibbies aye, mibbies naw. Westminster can’t stop a consultative referendum, its what got their knickers in a twist this time round as it is entirely within the rights of Holyrood to hold one, most especially if Westminster is demonstrably seen to have reneged on their campaign pledges and statements. Route two is of course UDI with a party coming to power on a manifestoed promise of a view to settlement and intent to declare independence. There is of course several opportunities for a party over the coming five years to introduce such a policy within their manifesto and with a popular democratic ballot and mandate, well its hard to see how Westminster could do much about either.
All they have to do is deliver on their pledges and back up their campaign statements.
Westminster may not like it, but both are perfectly legal and democratic methods.
HandandShrimp says:
Lesley
There is certainly much to commend your plan although UDI means Unilateral rather than Universal. It generally doesn’t go down that well at the UN but they do come around in the end.
Thanks for the correction there Handclapping but I think I knew what I meant. 😉 😛
I hate it when you type one thing but were thinking something else, still I think the sentiment of what I was trying to say is still there. Any way thanks for your support Handclapping, from your ever friendly Village Idiot. 😀
As far as the U.N. is concerned I don’t think there would be too much they could do or would be able to do about us declaring UDI, especially if the scenario I was talking about happened where the majority of the people voted for independence supporting parties. Surely that in itself would prove to the U.N. that it was the collective will of the people of Scotland and as such they would do best NOT to interfere. 🙂
I don’t understand the desire to leave the European Union. I don’t think Cameron would have agreed to a referendum if he was not confident the pro Europe camp would win. I think there will be a vote to stay in but like the Independance situation here, that will not kill the issue.
The banks control the government and the media. The EU threatens bankers’ bonuses. We shall therefore be leaving the EU. The rest of us can go to hell in a handcart.
being born in the early 50’s and of a working class socialist background, and a trade union rep when unions actually had power.
i fail to comprehend, why is it that some people still fail to grasp that the imperative to become an independent country is more paramount than ever, by cause of the political and economic power of thatcherite se of englnd and city of london £.
the 60’s was a particularly alarming time for socialists many such as jimmy reid saw the writing on the wall, which writ large the end of the UK working class movement, which generations had worked very hard to achieve.
those who controlled the capital were always going to win.
democracy was/is lost to greed, because all political power has ended up where it has in one unrepresentative place on these islands.
those with vision saw this happening, and were powerless to stop it, despite their MASSIVE efforts.
the working classes were/are completely hamstrung, in shifting that power.
the working classes of the UK have no hope of power UNLESS and until there is an indyscot.
Being very new to all this I would like to ask someone to point me in the right direction. Where do I find out ALL that I need to know about how to get involved, the reason I’m asking is there are all these people on here, who have been doing this for years. I don’t need to know why I voted yes. I just need to know where do I go to keep it alive. Ukip has given the establishment a bit of a slap.. but we have our own version of this right here in Scotland. THEY are the people who caused fighting in George Square with their butcher’s aprons flying proudly while they gave a nazi salute. Am I alone in the belief that, if we don’t stop blaming the No voters and moving forward as a united Scotland, then what you, me and the other 1.6 million yes voters will have done is let the momentum die. I’ve spent the last tree weeks reading, reading and more reading. What I have learned is that we have gone from anger, to disbelief, to outrage and the outrage is being focused on our fellow Scots.. playing into their hands. WM want us to fight amongst ourselves and whilst we are still doing this I think we are not focusing on what is going on with our Devo-max/FFA/Home Rule promises. Last night(like most nights) I read the comments on the SNP FB pages.. why are people still vilifying the no’s. We didn’t like BT doing this to us.. we have to stop and be inclusive, lead the way and bite our very quick Scottish tongues. If we don’t Ukip’s clones could be walking among us. Hope I haven’t spoken out of turn, but please can someone give me some good informative info on What we are doing NOW!! and where to go to become a part of it, thanks guys for reading. I do enjoy this site. Up the Revolution lol!
This is why you are rated Stu.
Perhaps you’d better start thinking of either updating the WBB or producing something new. I think we’re gonna need it!
(Sorry if this appears twice, first one went *walkabout*)
I wonder if they intend to play Human Right`s against banker reforms.
Hi Lesley-Anne
HandandShrimp is the clever one. I’m the one still trying to work out how you managed to get the Village Idiot title 😀
Andrew Haddow says:
10 October, 2014 at 3:10 pm
The banks control the government and the media. The EU threatens bankers’ bonuses. We shall therefore be leaving the EU. The rest of us can go to hell in a handcart.
Watch the bankers!
Peter Murrell tweets Snp membership at 80,000
Lab and Tory councillors vote against ‘the Vow’
The SNP is today highlighting Labour and Tory councillors in Stirling council who have voted against the Vow on “extensive new powers” for the Scottish Parliament, which was signed by David Cameron and the other Westminster leaders days before the referendum.
The move by the Lab-Tory coalition at last night’s meeting of Stirling Council to vote down SNP councillors Graham Houston and Scott Farmer’s motion – which noted acceptance of the result of the referendum, welcomed the establishment of the Smith Commission and called for the council to encourage community engagement for the delivery of new powers – has been described as “deeply disappointing” by local SNP MSP Bruce Crawford.
Labour and Tory councillors voted through their own partisan motion – with no specific mention of the Vow, which indicates that the ‘principle’ set out by Glasgow Labour MP Willie Bain – that Labour will not vote for SNP motions – seems to be alive and well in Scottish local government. Mr Crawford said that the people of Stirling deserved better than this.
He said:
“It is deeply disappointing that Labour and Tory councillors decided to be so partisan in their approach to this sensible and forward looking motion on the Vow and the delivery of extensive new powers for Scotland.
“As stated in the motion, the SNP accept the referendum result and are keen to move on, it’s just a shame that the Westminster parties are so entrenched in their position and risk stalling progress. This is the ridiculous ‘Bain principle’ in action, where Labour refuse to vote for any motions proposed by the SNP – in this case along with their Tory coalition partners in Stirling.
“With the general election only seven months away Labour should be worried. Their decision to campaign with the Tories is something they will pay a heavy price for at the ballot box in the coming months.
“We will continue to hold the Westminster parties to the Vow – regardless of petty and partisan Labour and Tory votes against it – and the people of Scotland are waiting for it to be honoured. It is vital that the Scottish Parliament is given full powers over tax and welfare so we can address the poverty and inequality that Westminster polices are imposing on Scotland.”
@Handclapping
“still trying to work out how you managed to get the Village Idiot title”
Because I was ill that day and LA’s more popular.
Its the cowboy hat, I’m sure of it. 😀
@Luigi :
What if UKIP narrowly lose the EU referendum in 2017..will they walk away?
..
..
Thats like asking would Scots give up on Independence after Sept 2014?
handclapping says:
Hi Lesley-Anne
HandandShrimp is the clever one. I’m the one still trying to work out how you managed to get the Village Idiot title 😀
Och the answer to that one is easy Handclapping, hell even I can answer THAT one. 😛
Basically it was on the case of first come first served tied to the individual who was the least serious in their postings most of the time. I think I kinda come first in both of these categories, don’t you? 😉
Is it time for Wingers to act rather than just suggest what others should do.
I created a contact list spreadsheet of many of the range of Yes groups I could find on the internet but as most of them only have Facebook or Twitter addresses & I don’t use either, it is useless to me. Could a Winger with Facebook access use it to contact everyone with a brief summary of what Scots wanting another go at indy need to do for 2015 & 2016. At least that would get the message through to the groups themselves rather than relying of a variety of blogs & news websites which they probably will not see.
Just a thought-please don’t bite my head off-surely this is a task that keyboard warriors can do to help. Ok tell me to shut up & I’ll go back to sleep.
What if the EU agree to reform that caters to neo-liberalism (even more)
Would you want to be in it?
Douglas Carswell the man who loves TESCO.
link to tompride.wordpress.com
Following on from LA, (the Village Idiot 🙂 )
At Westminster GE it will be very difficult to get over 50% of the seats by way of the first-past-the-post nature of the rules.
But, if we get over 50% of the vote, including ssp, greens etc, and over 50% of the votes in the Holyrood GE that, surely, must be a mandate to declare independence, and then negotiate the terms under the watchful eye of the UN snd the EU, especially given the timing of Westminster’s EU Referendum.
Another excerpt from a different French newspaper website (Libération):
“Next month—the date is not yet engraved in stone—another partial election will take place in Rochester and Trud, in the Kent, just a few tens of kilometers away from Clacton. This one has been caused by another Conservative’s defection, as Mark Reckless’ [uh, what a name], an intimate friend of Doug Carswell, joined the UKIP. He could very well win his seat in the Commons, another one for the anti-european party. With the GE planned for May 2015, Nigel Farage already speaks of a ’domino effect’.”
Macart says:
@Handclapping
“still trying to work out how you managed to get the Village Idiot title”
Because I was ill that day and LA’s more popular.
Its the cowboy hat, I’m sure of it. 😀
Steady on there Macart. I mean ME more popular that YOU! You can NOT be serious! 😛 I admit that I was sad to hear about your illness on the day of the vote. I did do everything I could to ensure YOU won … HONEST! 😀
I’ll grant you though that I think it really was the cowboy hat that won it for me though. 😉
Taking a swing to the SNP to what is a maximum basically, with SNP 50%, Lab 27%, Con 15%, Lib 5% on electoral calculus which doesn’t allow UKIP, Green or SSP input, you get in seats, SNP 48, Lib 1, Lab 10. I’m not saying it’s likely, it’s to highlight “untakeable” Labour seats.
These could have the Labour vote split by UKIP perhaps, but also by SSP (or Greens as appropriate). It’s possible 1 or two of them could be taken by SSP if they can tackle the Labour vote, and be given help by the SNP! They are:
Glasgow North East Willie Bain
Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill Tom Clarke
Glasgow East Margaret Curran (though the SNP close)
Glasgow South West Ian Davidson
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Gordon Brown
Glenrothes Lindsay Roy (though SNP close)
Dunbartonshire West Gemma Doyle (SNP fairly close)
Motherwell and Wishaw Frank Roy (SNP failry close)
Rutherglen and Hamilton West Tom Greatrex (SNP fairly close)
Paisley and Renfrewshire South Douglas Alexander (SNP very close)
Seems to me for some of these seats, persuading the SNP to trade them off against SSP / Green support elsewhere would be a good idea.
Still being part and parcel of this UK with an elected ukipper makes me actually feel physically sick but, this is where we are now sadly. Then i got to reading other posters thoughts here about the ukip splitting the other unionist parties votes wherever they choose to stand in Scotland for the GE in may ’15. This may be no bad thing and might perversely be ‘the’ achilles heel of the unionist parties thus leading to us here in Scotland getting behind the SNP enmasse and giving the British State another humungous headache and creating a nice little crisis for Westminster. Salmond is right. There is different ways to skin that proverbial cat. And more importantly its very do able!
F.a.o John King – signed your osce 38 degrees petition last night. Its worth a shot so hope many more also sign it.
A series of food safety breaches were discovered at the catering facilities at the £188 million Pacific Quay building in Glasgow.
They included dirty, crumbling work surfaces, uncovered food and staff with no proper training in food hygiene issues.
There was a lack of hand washing facilities in food handling areas, a faulty fridge and inadequate records kept.
link to scotsman.com
This cant be true plenty of hand washing over their biased referendum coverage.
And I notice that yet again BBC North Britain has no live coverage or highlights programme of Scotland’s Euro Nations championship games on Saturday and Tuesday evening.
But then again they pay more to Gary Lineker each year than they spend on Scottish football coverage.
It’s like the ‘Gang of Four’ all over again. The SDP were gouing to change politics in Britain for ever. Aye right–look how that turned out.
2015 GE will see UKIP put back in its box.
@Jim McIntosh
Your scenario has the media campaigning against an EU exit. No chance. Murdoch has always been hostile to the EU, the Daily Mail even more so. The campaign to leave the EU will get far more sympathetic coverage than Yes Scotland ever got – and that will make a massive difference.
@Lesley-Anne
Damn that stylish head gear! 😀
Good to see you back on form. 😉
rUK pension fund to run out by next year, you would have thought Brown should have knowing this as he was Chanceller for over a decade.
@Morag
2017? If the SNP win big in May 2016, what’s wrong with going in September? Q.v. 1997.
Discuss.
What do you mean? Another independence referendum in less than 2 years?
lollysmum says :
I created a contact list spreadsheet of many of the range of Yes groups
Lollysmum, others have also been working on the same. Do you want to email : jim AT yesrutherglen DOT com
Maybe you both could share results and workload
Even working on the Lab “safe” seats are worth while. If you can turn a safe to something that looks progressively more marginal it still puts huge pressure on them or leads to a potential future turnover of control.
Andrew Haddow at 3.10 said ”The banks control the government and the media.”
Elizabeth at 3.02 said “My SNP supporting son did a fair bit of canvassing in poorer areas during the referendum . He says worries about immigration came up over and over again.”
I accept both statements as true. My thoughts are, who controls the banks, media and government? It is these same shadowy figures who are promoting massive third world immigration throught the EU.
It is also worth wondering who is driving the indoctrination of our children through “schooling”. We have all been taught to behave in a politically correct way and to self censor.
How often is debate closed down by a shout of RACIST or NAZI?
I have posted very infrequently over a long period under my official title. The village I came from was always referred to locally as the Clachan and my school mates and I were usually referred to as daft gowks by older people who didn’t know any better
Macart says:
@Lesley-Anne
Damn that stylish head gear! 😀
Good to see you back on form. 😉
Doffs hat! 😛
It is a great all weather hat, kept the sun out of my eyes on July 23rd (Scotland’s summer! 😉 ) and keeps my hair dry when it rains the other 364 days of the year. (Scotland’s winter 😛 )
Glad to be back, apparently my presence was missed, can’t understand why myself. 😀
New layout is helping as well, at home that is, computer speakingly. 😉
Some of the SSP candidates are nutters.
The greens are also pretty delusional when it comes to oil etc
where’s Kim?
The SNP submission to the Smith Commission;
link to snp.org
@ Nana Smith
I wonder if he still thinks the NHS should be run Like Tesco after the “lost” 250 million in their accounts and spent 30 million more on a jet to add to the other 5 they had… actually he probably does
Fear and greed run the good old capitalist system, well oiled with oodles of money supplied by a complicit and compliant government. The greedy terrify and control the voters by the good old open and honest media, EBC and the written media. You only have to look at Grangemouth and how it and the people were bought and sold (and terrified) into a corner by the money men.
The money men work out the plan the media terrify the workers into the set up they wanted and the government throw in a couple of hundred million (of tax payers money) INEOS gets shot of surpless manpower and access to fracking in Scotland. A massive con.
Never mind all the money men Wood, taylor etc will make billions out of it and they still have all the offshore oil (including the atlantic clyde etc) how lucky can some people be?
The psudo Middle class NO voters are still suffering loose bowl syndrome about their pitiful pensions why the money men are away with the golden goose.
Thanks EBC & MSM for your lies and treachery in support of this wonderful democracy we have thanks to the mother of parliaments. The whole system is rotten to the core. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN,
An alliance, such as Scotland First should stand at the GE.
They should promote DevoMax and confirm they will not support the tories. Made up with SNP MP’s and other candidates. If the SNP stand we won’t make the breakthrough as too many Labour heidbangers will not vote SNP.
Lesley-Anne
I think the route to UDI would be through requests, then demands, for a Referendum to be put again into a Section 30 order. When the repeated requests were denied, then the SG holds a consultative referendum, fends off the legal challenges if any, then holds the referendum, wins the YES vote, then asks Westminster to honour it.
If Westminster still refuses, then it’s UDI, but not until then. I think that’s why Salmond made the point about “other routes to Independence including UDI”. It was a warning to Westminster to be democratic – or else.
One of the powers the Smith Commision should reccomend to be devolved is the absolute power to hold a referendum, i.e. a permanent Section 30 order in the next Scotland Act.
The actual route to independence is not important. What is crucial is the will of the people. As I still maintain (probably to everyone’s annoyance), when the people of Scotland are ready for independence (and we are close), then no Westminster, no legislation, no red tory lies, no BBC MSM, no dirty tricks, no billionaire funding, no “expert” opinion, no threats, no scare stories, in fact no power on earth will be able to stop it. It will happen.
@Luigi
Superb, and to the point!
Our task is to facilitate that ready-ness!
It’s no surprise the astuteness of this blog gets it a third place. Note Craig Murray is up there with you, but the other Scottish ones eg lesley Riddoch are way behind.
This should be encouraging from the point of view of your media initiative.
By the way, the UKIP blurb essentially is for England only.
As I am only the Village Idiot on here I will bow to your greater knowledge and understanding in these matters yesindyref2. 😉
I just throw ball up into the air and let it fall wherever and hope that someone with actual knowledge can pick up the ball and *ahem* run with it, so to speak. 😛
Long live the tories
Vote No, long live UKIP
Apologies, my computer was abused whilst I away from my desk.
C**ts. lol
I cannot envisage a scenario were Scotland becomes independent without achieving a majority in a referendum. I do not understand why people think UDI is a good idea, and I cannot see a SNP majority of seats at Westminster or Holyrood as being enough to gain international recognition or support. Nicola Sturgeon says in a statement released today:
For Scotland to become independent, the people of Scotland must choose this future at the ballot box in a referendum.
It is theoretically possible to gain independence without winning a majority in a referendum, but in our case I cannot see a scenario that would enable this to occur.
SNP submission to Smith:
link to snp.org
The Heywood result knocks on the head the bilge about Scotland and England being similar politically.
I know Heywood well and for it to desert to UKIP is seriously worrying. Labour are gubbed..which is good, but a Tory Ukip alliance would be disastrous for us. Mind you anything that happens in England now will be the case anyway.
A couple of posters have commented that UKIP’s policies could have traction up here..that I can confirm from canvassing during the REF. Bear in mind , nearly 140,000 voted for them in the Euro election….plus there is a section of the ‘NO’ vote that has been politicised into seeing itself as ‘British’ and a consequently as a force for reaction to progressive Scotland.
A further problem is the msm, specifically the BBC. As I’ve pointed out, ad nauseum, is that direct action is required now, and must be mobilised against this organisation. The well established narrative that UKIP are the main challengers to the established duopoly of Tory/Lab story as the only story in town, is seriously damaging already the SNP/SG authority. It is designed to take the undecided’s attention away from Scotland’s plight because of the joke known as the ‘VOW’.
Right now,I believe that the lack of action by the SG towards the BBC and its seriously biased coverage , and reaction to the political storm from the south, about to engulf us, if we allow it…will lead to a catastrophic re-run near-miss GE result in 2015 (remember Blair Jenkins..who he?).
We are all doing our bit..talking, discussing, organising and demonstrating (Sunday in Freedom Square) but our political leaders.. the SNP..must lead the public and organised fight against the BBC hoarse whisperers. And it must start now!
Oh, and the Scottish Government proposals sent to Smith:
link to scotland.gov.uk
Just reading them now 🙂
@muttley79 –“I cannot envisage a scenario were Scotland becomes independent without achieving a majority in a referendum.”.
You’re right, and Nicola is saying the same thing.
But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t declare UDI if WM refuse to abide by the results of a internationally monitored referendum.
link to theguardian.com
Farage said the Westminster class would not be able to recover.
“You’re out of touch guys,” he said when asked what message his party’s success sends to Westminster.
“It is too late,” he said when asked what the other parties should do.
“We have a career political class of college kids who have never had jobs in their lives with absolutely no connection to ordinary people and how they are struggling. We need new people. We need change, real change.”
If Nigel keeps talking like that then UKIP will draw a helluva lot of voters.
Interesting times ahead.
We live in a society where the MSM gets the population to inhale fear and exhale anger. You just need to look at the referendum campaign with the massive disinformation of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) along with the demonisation of individuals like Alex Salmond to see how this is done. In this sort of climate, it makes people lose hope and it is easy for spivs like the UKIP to come up with easy appealing answers to sort out these answers.
How do you deal with this? I don’t know and I don’t think there is any quick fixes. All we can do is get the message across that there is an alternative to this madness which is the creation of a wee independent country that has a written constitution and there is better chance for the sovereign people to hold the establishment accountable. I know that this isn’t palatable to a certain section of our society but faced with the alternative it is the least worst option.
Thanks for the ongoing articles and analysis, WoS.
A couple of thoughts in the light of the kippers results.
There may be an expectation that some of the folks who voted yes in the IndyRef would naturally go on to support SNP (yes alliance parties) in forthcoming elections, as a natural consequence.
This could be a false hope.
In conversations with some passionate yes voters, they also highlighted discomfort with the current levels of overseas immigrants into Scotland. They were happy to vote for independence, believing that in an independent Scotland their vote at Holyrood would subsequently allow them to have a more forcible impact in controlling levels of immigration via their party vote. They may be well inclined to vote for UKIP candidates in forthcoming elections. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that all yes voters were happy with Yes Alliance party policies.
Also,in light of the vow and the timeline, which if I remember correctly said measures would be put into place by the new UK Gov after May 2015, if Clegg’s signature is relegated to obscurity through lack of seats, and UKIP makes gains, enough to hold balance of power, or form a coalition with Tories, could they refuse to deliver, given that Farage can maintain he was never party to the vow. Is this another get-out clause?
UKIP will certainly make the next few months in the run up to May interesting. I think Farage and his cronies are diametrically opposite to the SNP in their outlook though in fairnesd they do have a consistency Westminster completely lacks.
By the rational of the no camp bigger is better and separation is madness in this interconnected world – an approach difficult to reconcile with being against further European integration. Most of the no campaigns arguments could be cited to promote a United States of Europe.
Our armed forces are small – why not combine into a European Defense Force? why not pool and share resources over a wider community? Surely we would have more ‘clout’ with more seats on the security council etc etc.
I don’t propose anything of what I have just written but I am trying to highlight the British Nationalist duplicity – one set of arguments for Scotland and another for Europe.
If English people, generally Eurosceptic as they seem to be wish to leave the EU then that is there right and it is a fair proposition, but I will remain a European and hopefully we can benefit from their collective madness and gain the prize of independence which the media has robbed us of 3 weeks ago.
@Jim McIntosh
It would take extreme circumstances for UDI to be used. I have been reading independence websites for ages, and a lot of people just bring up UDI as if it is a run of the mill thing to do. The exact opposite is the case. I really do not see why so many people seem to think it is a good idea. I hope it is just a manifestation of the disappointment of losing the independence referendum. If we don’t achieve independence via a referendum, I cannot see it being achieved full stop.
O/T
link to en.ria.ru
SNP proposals to Smith looking good.
Of course Westminster has bugger all intention of doing anything like that. They will give another round of silly powers, with no impact, and use the puppet ‘Scottish’ media and their propagandists at the BBC to to tell Scots ‘it is the biggest single transfer of powers since 1707, etc.. etc..’ Just like they did with the rubbish called Calman.
We’ll wait and see how little they offer, then we fight again. Devo max is what we want at the very least, with oil revenues and ALL taxation coming to Scotland.
As an aside, I still cannot fathom why, when we have a fully democratically elected Government to represent Scotland, the views of the unsuccessful parties at Holyrood are being given equal weighting. To do so, is to imply, the Scottish Government is irrelevant, or of no greater importance than any other political party.
80,000 members for the SNP. That’s 1300+ for every Westminster constituency in Scotland. But a third will be too old or unwilling to be actively engaged, still that’s 900 “activists” per constituency and actually in the constituency 24/7. More than the “old” SNP could muster for Hamilton or Glasgow East bye elections, shipping in people from all over Scotland
In place, in every constituency in a General Election when there are no reinforcements that can be sent up from rUK as they’ll be going pelters not to be ousted by UKIP. If the SNP can organise this enthusiasm to do the canvassing and recording, the signing up postal voters, the getting the vote out on the day that Yes failed to do, then it could be curtains for any and every Unionist.
If they don’t teach you how to do these things, ask them. Yes couldn’t organise a grass-roots movement, I’m not sure that the SNP knows how to either. Yet.
@mutley79
So what is your response if we win a referendum and WM refuse to acknowledge it. How do we go forward?
Any Dundonians up for chipping in for billboards about McGoverns expenses close to the GE?
Over £200,000 is not a joke, and I don’t think his fellow Dundonians will be amused.
Swami Backverandah @ 10 October, 2014 at 5:42 pm
The issue is to do immigrants coming in and doing jobs that should be filled by the locals. We need immigrants to fill highly technical/skilled jobs that can’t be filled by the local population for various reasons like for instance the specific role is too specialised. That is basic common sense and needs to be explained to folk.
Since I have become convinced of the argument of independence, there has been times where I have asked myself why I am for it. The reasons I support it is for practical reasons in that it offers better governance and better accountability but most importantly it offers the chance to have a society that mirrors the values that I believe in. The views of the likes of the Daily Mail doesn’t need to hold supreme whether in the UK or an independent Scotland. These views needs to be challenged. An independent Scotland needs to be a society where things are done the right way not the same way on a tinier scale. Going for the right way may lose support in the short term but if the argument can be won and it will then we will benefit in the long term because we held true to our values.
@muttley 79
Referendum is preferable IMO, but the other options are there and dependent on Westminster reactions to popular demand in Scotland. Another section 30 may be problematic to achieve in terms of WM reluctance. A consultative is less attractive, but more likely and either will only be achievable again through manifesto, policy and popular mandate.
It all depends on how much pressure the electorate can bear from Westminster policies and how much they can bring to bear once they’ve had enough.
Wee Ginger Dug is on sparkling form today-definitely a ‘must read’ particularly if you like a laugh. Absolutely excellent!
Lord Smith has warned political parties not to undermine the process for agreeing more powers for the Scottish Parliament.
link to archive.today
“There is no joy in it becoming abundantly clear that Labour, even if they did have a clear and coherent progressive message, are in no fit state to govern Britain, to ‘protect Scotland’, to stand up to the Tories, to defend the vulnerable, or to to do any of the things that so called ‘Left No’ voters based their one dimensional ahistoric hopes on. The folk memory of Labour has been dying for years. Surely failure in the year ahead will extinguish it and a radical politics can be rediscovered for the English left?”
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
From the Scottish Government proposals to the Smith commission;
“The Scottish Government believes the default assumption should be that all matters – with the exception of those that could not be the subject of devolution while Scotland remains within the United Kingdom – are for the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. It is for those who are arguing that a matter should remain reserved to demonstrate their case.”
Sound and logical, if you ask me. If Westminster argues for any power to be reserved, then it must justify it, with rational arguments, rather than the other way around, trying to justify which powers to devolve.
In Scotland, the SNP could / should go into an alliance with other Yes parties for the Westminster election in May 2015. But why does that have to be restricted to Scotland? What would happen if this ‘Alliance’, or ‘SNP-Alliance’ fielded candidates in some (or maybe even all) English constituencies as well?
(Two obvious constituencies would be those to which Berwick and Corby Town belong, but there could be plenty more.)
One advanatge would be to ensure that the BBC gives the SNP/ SNP-Alliance full air time, as it should anyway (the BBC may try to wriggle out of, on the pretext that the SNP is not a UK-wide party – so that excuse would no longer hold.)
A second advantage is that the SNP-Alliance would offer the voters of England a real left of centre option which, at the moment, is denied them because neither Labour nor the LibDems fulfil that function.
A third advantage is that the SNP-Alliance could have very important policies to offer England, including dismantling Faslane and no further waste of money in renewing nuclear weapons. There are eleemnts of SNP policy that are relevant not only in Scotland, but beyond.
We could even – eventually – get independence (maybe after full federalism?) through the Westminster parliament!
Is it worth thinking about? Or am I dreaming?
STV reporting that submissions from Lab and Tory are there old pledges. LDs gone a wee bit further.
I assume Gordon Brown is still to submit the Daily Record Vow. That is more devolved powers to the Scottish Parliament, the continuation of the Barnet Formula and promises to protect the NHS.
But then again, as Nana Smith reported, lab and Tories on Stirling Council have rejected these. Do they have no shame?
OT – communication from the SNP which includes this:
The National Executive Committee has called an extraordinary meeting of National Council to review the qualification period for participation in the selection of Parliamentary candidates. At present, 13 months continuous membership is required to be able to vote in the selection of a parliamentart candidate. That position would of course exclude all members joining since the referendum from the process for selecting Westminster candidates for 2015 and Scottish Parliament candidates for 2016. The NEC is proposing an amendment to the Rules that would allow any member who joined by the time of Conference to take part in upcoming selection processes.
Personally speaking as a new member of a Party which despite Prof Curtice’s poor understanding of Maths has more than trebled in size (not increased by 2/3rds), I would respect the rights of long-standing members. But I’m pleased that at least they are putting this to an extraordinary meeting. It shows understanding of what motivated us – the non-aligned apolitical – to join the SNP.
I’d also like to see them consider opening a membership category to already existing members of the SSP and Greens, to facilitate co-operation where possible in the cause of Independence.
Hadn’t realised UKIP wanted more global positioning satellites ( according to that picture anyway), but with their immigration policies I guess they’ll need them.
@Wee Alex
Not only that but the FT are reporting ‘Tory MPs eye revolt over Scottish funding’
Sorry can’t link as the story is behind a paywall.
Not sure why my submission does not appear. If it fails to meet some requirements please let me know what is wrong, so that I can rectify it. Many thanks.
Robert Louis
I have this vision of Iain Gray and Gregg McClymont, Annabel Goldie and Professor Adam Tomkins, Michael Moore and Tavish Scott, on their iPhones at Smith meetings calling up Westminster:
“Help me Rona, what should I say next?”
Sorry – I see my submission has indeed been posted. Once again, many thanks.
I know I just read that the Lab/Cons proposals are the old ones – devo nano – I hope Swinney is on the ball.
1.6m yes voters want the full package – bloody insult from Lab/Cons – unacceptable and the commission should be told.
yesindyref2
Would that include Tommy Sheridan, running as an SNP candidate
in Glasgow.
Unfortunately with Willie Rennie lick-spittling Clegg in charge of the Scottish LibDems, there’s little chance of the LibDems having the courage to do what they should do – go falt out in support of Devo-Max during Smith. It could save them in Scotland, but could be spun to help them in the rUK for 2015 as well. They seem to have lost all their brains in the clingfilm coalition greed feeding frenzy.
@Jim McIntosh
So what is your response if we win a referendum and WM refuse to acknowledge it. How do we go forward?
That is a hypothetical situation. I have talked quite a bit on here about UDI, and don’t want to go on about it. I think UDI is in political terms a suicidal thing to do. The American state would not accept it, not least because it would signal severe difficulties for their strategic relationship with the British state. If America does not okay our independence then neither will the rest. So we have one other go at winning a referendum if we are lucky, and therefore, it has to be timed so that we know it is as good a formality as we can be sure of.
Thistle’s appeal now at 44% (£1,760). Very nearly half-way there.
Great stuff from all concerned. Keep it up people – you know it’ll be worth every penny.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2
BBC Reporting Scotland started at 6.30pm tonight and the top story was the news we were all waiting to hear, what had all the political parties in Scotland contributed to the “Smith Commission”.
At 6.33pm it was all over, in that three minutes our national broadcaster had explained to us what each Party had put forward and also the timetables surrounding it.
Three minutes. BBC Scotland using another of their Referendum tactics, the lack of information. They didn’t want you hearing what the SNP had proposed, keep the electorate dumbed down.
And I don’t know why we are wasting our time with this Smith Commission, Bernard Ponsonby of STV said tonight that the SNP will not get what they are asking for anyway.
And Bernard knows you know.
The good old fair and balanced Scottish News Service.
Why do we need another referendum, Ive been proindy since the seventies, most of the time a majority of votes cast at a GE were thought to be enough to declare Indy, the creation of the Scots Parliament has changed it slightly but all we have to do is the following.
2016
SNP Stand on one manifesto commitment – repeal of Act of Union
If they get 50% +1 on first past the post part of the election then they repeal the act of union with help of regional Indy supporting parties.
If they do not get 50% +1 they decline to take power as they didn’t have anything in manifesto apart from repeal of act of union. let labour take power, give them enough rope to hang themselves, by that time a Tory/Ukip coalition at Wasteminster will be pushing for leaving the EU. Labour in Scotland will abolish, free higher education, bus passes etc. When they go to abolish prescriptions for example, call a vote of no confidence. New elections, stand on one manifesto commitment again, win 50% +1 Simples.
I think there’s a good case to suggest a 2nd ref if the Smith commission does not accept the SNP proposals.
45% voted for full independence and 14% were swayed by GBs ‘federalism’ and the vow.
The devo nano of the lab/Cons comes no where near that.
That’s why I hope JS does not give in easily.
I’m sure he will be consulting with NS and AS.
I meant to post this to catch the blog post the by-elections but I was a bit early. The Tory’s are ahead of the game having placed their most able man at the centre of the EU with a remit to bring about the changes that the perceive to be necessary to ensure the UK votes to remain within the EU. Completely wrong footing UKIP.
Lord Hill has been appointed to the newly-created post of Director General (Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets) for the EU. He is tasked with responsibility for ensuring vigilance over banking and financial sectors and is to be pro-active in the design and implementation of new supervisory and regulatory rules, (exempt overseeing pay in the financial sector) which has been allocated elsewhere. He will be in post until 2019 and will be expected to bring much change to the EU reforming marketing policies, working hard cementing alliances so that the UK and EU achieve success.
link to caltonjock.com
PS I think the cons would prefer that to the possibility of a 2nd ref, cos they really wanted Faslane to be kept under their control.
I know this will upset some folk but we can fight for that later
A.N.Surgent
I personally would hope so, though not as SNP, some sort of Independent or Socialist. Going against Ian Davidson might be a step too far, he’s probably the safest of the lot, but Murphy, Curran or Bain perhaps …
@Lenny Hartley
There is no chance of the SNP going into an election with that kind of a commitment in the next year or two at the very least. We have had three constitutional referendums in Scotland, in 1979, 1997, and this year. How are we going to achieve independence without a referendum, given this constitutional precedents? Do you think the American state would allow us to do this? This is not just a internal question for Scotland, this has geopolitical considerations.
@a n surgent
I’d love it they sent Tommy to Westminster, the anti-Farage!
Just a wee O/T…
There’s a LiveStream event about to start covering Edinburgh West’s plans.
link to new.livestream.com
muttley79
I was thinking back this week, to the 70s, and realised that I cheered when the SNP won 11 seats as opposed to the previous 5 or so, so that obviously means I supported Indy even more than the “almost 40 years” I previously claimed.
But looking back, my hope was for a referendum, whatever the result, and that’s a lifetime wish I’ve seen happen. A YES vote would have been custard on the apple tart, marrow with the dog’s bone!
Anyway, there was no other way of having this first referendum, it had to be very much a hit or miss affair, with the polls and the odds heavily against a YES vote from the start, just to actually have it and wake up Scotland – and test the waters. The next referendum wouldn’t be held unless it was almost certain to win it.
would really want to see Tommy joining the SNP he was absolutely bouncing when he was on the Sunday politics show
And he is one not to get ruffled by anyone when he is in full flow
Just think of the publicity if the SNP had 999,999 members and they let him be 100,000 th member
sorry meant 99,000 extra 9 a mistake
Lesley-Anne @ 2.38pm
Take a look at the second comment on Pete Wisharts blog. 🙂
link to petewishart.wordpress.com
The one thing that genuinely worries me is whether Scots would vote to stay in the EU after we’re inevitably bombarded with three years’ worth of anti-EU propaganda from the state broadcaster. I only hope that enough people will remember how Scotland being out of the EU was presented as disastrous for Scotland in the indyref campaign, see the complete opposite this time around, and finally put two-and-two together.
LFI need to get their act together. Break away from New Labour in Scotland once and for all, set themselves up as the real Labour Party. New Labour is NOT the Labour party, and they MUST NOT forget that. A vote for New Labour is a vote AGAINST reclaiming the party of Hardie, Bevan et al.
Apart from the whole Scotland has negligible impact on UK elections etc etc etc
I do have to wonder. A lot of people are very disillusioned with all the WM parties, but the turnout for the by-election was dismal, so not really a great indicator. Still…
And we know this because they’ve already done that – in fact, on several of the thirteen votes taken on Scottish devolution in 2010 (what would become the Scotland Act), Scottish Labour MPs voted to return powers from Holyrood back to Westminster.
WHY in the name of Jock Tamson should we trust any of these people to fight for more powers when they’ve already proven that they will not, just to spite the SNP?
I do wish the people would WAKE UP. This was a glorious, unprecedented chance for something amazing, and we lost it. In a year’s time, I dearly hope the majority of No voters will be wondering what the hell they were thinking.
@muttley79: It is theoretically possible to gain independence without winning a majority in a referendum, but in our case I cannot see a scenario that would enable this to occur.
What if there was indeed a referendum, which did gain a majority, but it wasn’t recognized by Westminster, as yesindyref2 suggests (and as seems to be the current situation in Catalonia?)
The French article explains why votes go to the UKIP: it is chickens coming home to roost for the unionist parties, who have become distanced from the electorate. They want to live like the white minority in South Africa, in gated communities, knowing nothing of the great unwashed in the townships….. The rise of the UKIP shows once again that, for Scotland, the only answer is a social democratic model after the fashion of the economies of Germany and Scandinavia. Thank goodness the SG realise this and are doing great things to develop apprenticeships. I am just glad for now that the UKIP is causing damage to the other unionist parties. I just wish for independence so we could leave these four basket-case parties to stew in their own juice, while we get on with building a fairer society through parties like the SNP, Greens, SSP.
Sugar Bean
If he did stand for the SNP that would carry-weight with a lot of people, might encourage others to do the same. Widens the appeal of the SNP and narrows the blabs.
Thinking about Smith, there’s the SNP in favour of Devo-Max and I guess the Greens are too. The Tories are already a bit further along the way for Devo than Labour, and it could be politically expedient for them to say “OK, Devo-Max it is, but EVEL goes with it”. The LibDems who are apparently even further along could save a few GE votes by supporting their lifetime ambition at least in Scotland and also going for that, and that leaves Labour out in the cold. Bye bye Labour, thanks for the Murphy’s but I’m supping Guinness these days.
An interesting scenario. Possible? Perhaps.
Unions were formed by people breaking the law.
We got the vote by breaking the law.
Women got the vote because they broke the law.
Poll Tax stopped by people breaking the law (esp in England where it was violence)
This has been the way on many issues.
If Governments do not listen to the people what does the people do to make them listen?
Given up on the livestream. Constant buffering!
Anyone else having problems?
Just watched a piece on YES on Channel 4 news-featured a couple of young yessers, YesBar owner (someone on here a few days ago was asking if they are still YES-they are),also RIC interview film also showed Yes activists persuading people to sign a pledge not to vote Labour at GE. Also an acceptance that politics in Scotland has changed & continues to change.Complete change of tone in reporting this time.
Haven’t worked out yet how to post links but for those with BBC licence it’s the last article in the programme & will be on again Channel 4+1 at 8pm
Bye bye British Labour Party and good riddance to you you self interested, incompetent, Tory fag boys. There was a chance to be something greater but turns out you have no interest in Scotland or it’s people just Westminster.
Scariest thing I have read on Indyref is from someone who crunched all ‘referendum’ voting numbers.
Basically the reason yes lost was 25% of people who never voted in 1979 and 1997 but were moved enough to get of their arses in 2014 to vote NO.
Reason?
Project fear most likely.
How counter this in the longer term? Education and media and Wings is perfectly placed to do this
.
@yesindyref2
Anyway, there was no other way of having this first referendum, it had to be very much a hit or miss affair, with the polls and the odds heavily against a YES vote from the start, just to actually have it and wake up Scotland – and test the waters. The next referendum wouldn’t be held unless it was almost certain to win it.
Aye, I think the referendum came at least a few years too early for Yes to have a realistic chance of victory. Two years ago support for independence was around the late 20s, low 30 per cent levels. We got 45 per cent in the referendum. So you can argue Yes got an increase in support for independence by as much as 20 per cent in two years or so. This is a massive achievement in itself. As you say the debate and vote has transformed Scottish politics. To be sure of victory next time independence needs to be consistency polling around at least 60 per cent imo.
Energy minister Ed Davey, on Any ?s R4 right now, just stated that “labour..and Slab were out of touch with the white working class”
Only the honkey’s ?
How liberal. The mask keeps slipping.
Any chance someone could explain where RIC sit please? Are they socialist / left, or just up for change?
Come on folks, get your personal submissions sent in:
link to smith-commission.scot
For what it’s worth, here is my bit:
Dear Lord Smith,
UK politics has changed, and everyone has to recognise and accept this. Scotland is a divided nation. Last month, a huge minority, 45% of those that voted, opted to leave the United Kingdom. This fact alone means that Westminster reserving all but token tax-raising and welfare responsibilities, as the three unionist parties seem to be advocating, is no longer an acceptable option.
As a supporter of independence, I accept the democratic wishes of 55% that voted to stay in the UK. However, I think it should also be accepted that promises of substantial powers for Scotland were made by the main three UK political leaders, hours before the referendum, and these should be fully honoured. I believe that any economic and constitutional difficulties that arise can be overcome with political goodwill. It is politically imperative that substantial powers are now transferred from Westminster to Holyrood as soon as possible. Failure to do this will risk alienating a much larger proportion of the population than that which voted YES on September 18th.
I accept that compromise is required. However, as a supporter of independence, I consider that a very big compromise, for 1.6 million voters (and many more that voted NO reluctantly), means a transfer of powers close to that of so-called Devo Max, accepted by most to mean the transfer of all powers from Westminster, except Defence and Foreign Affairs. My personal preference is for Westminster to retain to all powers relating to: Defence and National Security, Macroeconomic Policy, Foreign Affairs, and Immigration. Holyrood should have full control over Broadcasting, Welfare and Energy Regulation. Some leeway on Welfare may be acceptable, but control of Broadcasting and Energy regulation are absolute requisites. Without these, a deal is not possible, in my opinion.
These may be considered far too excessive by some parties, but they will also be considered seriously insufficient by others. If the British government is serious about reaching an agreement that all sides can accept, then everyone will have to be flexible. For supporters of independence, Devo Max is already a massive compromise. Personally, I could accept it, as I believe it to be the current desire of the people of Scotland. According to opinion polls, Devo Max, namely control of all revenues and powers except those relating to Defence and Foreign Affairs, is supported by 60-70% of the people of Scotland. Some reduction of Devo Max may be feasible, but not much. If the divisions are to be healed, then both sides will have to make big compromises. Failure to do so will lead to further division and acrimony, which will diminish our nation, our democracy and our people. I cannot stress this strongly enough. Thank you for your attention.
Yours etc
I’m sure that most of you can do much better than my simple, little effort – so get submitting, It’s important.
Put Tommy Sheriden in against Davidson.
Tommy may in fact live in Davidson’s constituency?
Keep bringing us the truth behind their lies.
@Chitterinlicht
My view is that we make everyone in Scotland see that Independence is inevitable, so we need to reassure everyone it’s going to be fine, sit back and let us, the 45% and anyone else who wants real change take us forward
Incidentally, I believe the SNP are going to have some sort of meeting regarding lifting the ban on new members being candidates for election to Westminster?
Looking interesting?
@Husker:
We need immigrants to fill highly technical/skilled jobs that can’t be filled by the local population for various reasons like for instance the specific role is too specialised.
I can assure you that (at least over here in France) most immigrant do fill jobs that the natives do not want: dustmen, street sweepers, and so on.
The UKIP will gain seats. It’s inevitable. They are the only party that never was in command. They are immaculate. They haven’t disappointed anybody. Of course they sell lies, like the others, but up to now their lies have not been confronted to reality. They still benefit from the doubt, something that the other parties cannot claim anymore.
But if they rise to power, they will fail; they’ll have their own shenanigans, their own boondoggles. Partly because their solutions are unrealistic, partly because there are make-believes. The time is long past when the power to decide was in the hand of the parties. It is now in the hands of the banks, of obscure international financial organizations, of CRAs; all non-democratic entities. That’s also why the wrath simmers: what good is ‘democracy’ when voting for Labours or Tories amounts, in the end, to the same failure?
So UKIP will fail, because there is no way out, no miracle to expect, no panacea. What we experience nowadays is not a mundane crisis, but the initial throes of death of the system. Capitalism, being based on premises engraved in stone 3,000 years ago, is now all but obsolete and nuisible and has been living way too long on borrowed time. Like weapons*, it has served us well. But the time of reckoning comes.
And what next? There won’t be anymore ‘external’ scapegoats to stone. No more EU to pan, no more strangers to demean. So the hate will bounce back on domestic targets; and what looms is nothing short of a civil war.
And still further in the future? Mayhap Orwell’s “2084”. Maybe Mad Max. Perhaps, if we are optimistic, man will realize how stupid he was, amend and reform. As the greatest philosopher of the 20th century (Sir Bertrand Russell) put it: “Modern methods of production have given us the possibility of ease and security for all; we have chosen, instead, to have overwork for some and starvation for others. Hitherto we have continued to be as energetic as we were before there were machines; in this we have been foolish, but there is no reason to go on being foolish forever.”
*In Arthur C. Clark’s “2001…”, chapter ‘Ascent of man’.
@Taranaich
What if there was indeed a referendum, which did gain a majority, but it wasn’t recognized by Westminster, as yesindyref2 suggests (and as seems to be the current situation in Catalonia?)
I would imagine if it got the thumbs up from the Electoral Commission, then the American state would have to recognise Scottish independence.
For what it’s worth darlings – and I’ve met many of you, there is no point in anyone other than the SNP running for Westminster. I would regret my party (Green) wasting its time on such stupidity, the best that those of us who are not SNP can hope for is some serious respect. Now get real – for us in the Green party, this is for our great grandchildren.
Music on Off-topic later honey bunches xx
“The BBC’s failure to challenge Lansley’s healthcare connections”
link to socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk
@Cherry Loudon, 3.14pm
Hi Cherry, the best thing you can probably do is find a local YES group, they will have a Facebook page. That is, if you don’t want to join the SNP/Greens/SSP etc. Joining a political party means that there is a structure in place from which you can learn basics such as canvassing etc (sorry if I come across as patronising, but I don’t know how involved you were in the campaign). If you can find a group, then most of your questions will be answered, because there are an awful lot of motivated and focused people out there who will be very welcoming and helpful.
As for the vilification of No voters, it might help if you consider that many people (and I include myself in this) are still in a period of intense grief. You can’t live, breathe, eat and sleep a campaign for months and then just switch off and move on. Although I am perfectly pleasant to my No voting work colleagues, I now have no respect at all for them; and these are people I thought of as my friends. I just can’t understand how they could have been so shallow, stupid and selfish. It is very painful, but I can’t seem to get past that feeling of betrayal just now. Maybe it will pass.
Also, this is a forum where people let off steam as much as anything, and they still need time to express their grief. Sometimes people go off the deep end a bit – but we all have one aim in mind, and we will find a way to get there.
This is completely OT, but I need to repost it from the previous thread as I don’t think Morag will have seen it.
Dear Morag, I am so sorry I upset you. It was meant as a lighthearted comment, but I can quite see looking back at it that it must have come across as bitchy. Also I forgot that you can’t make comments like that unless you know the person really well. We need an irony font! Or I should have put a smiley face.
xx
I just saw it this minute! Thanks, Natasha.
A polite request, aimed at no-one in particular:
Can we please lay-off the socialist-slapping?
If you’re not part of the BTUKOKVNOBNOTHANKSO/OBNPUKIPEDLSDL brigade, then you are, whether you like it or not, ‘of the Left’.
Mkay friends?
Muttley79 – totally agree we would require 60% minimum. I have done some maths and reluctantly have to face facts and consider the impact of recent migration to scotland and its impact on a Indy referendum (around 0.4Million I believe). Assuming that 75% of migrant vote will always be NO , it means YES have to convince 30% of the indigenous Scots NO voters to swap sides. This can be done in 3 years but will require a stupendous focussed effort
@Kenny.
Beware of Germany. Their insolent health is a trompe-l’œil. It seems at least to have dawned on other people:
link to telegraph.co.uk
Is there a Wings Over Scotland documentary due out any time soon?
Folks have been asking this question fairly frequently recently.
Would be an excellent kick starter to any new Scottish Media venture.
@leginge
I am a migrant to Scotland! I was born in West Africa and brought up in England. Don’t write us all off! 🙂
Can someone tell me what EVEL stands for?
Farage has a huge problem now.
How is he going to manage and control a party that will will have right, far right, left and liberals voting for him.
He is going to find it impossible to introduce policies that keep everybody happy.
He uses examples of immigration, welfare and the deficit and the EU will keep UKIP together.
So how now does he tackle these problems ?
What left, right, far right and liberal tax and spend policies do you use ?
What left, right, far right and liberal immigration policies do you use ?
What left, right, far right and liberal welfare policies do you use ?
It is a protest vote a mainly conservative one and when it comes to the crunch the left and the liberals will be side lined and thus you will split again.
Or the left and the liberals will run back to their parties with their tales between their legs. How will Nigel stop them from doing that ?
There are very few examples in history when the left, right, far right and liberals have stood under one political party. When they do it normally ends up with a monarch getting his head cut off or millions of immigrants getting burned on stakes or gassed.
The only peaceful example I can find is the tea party in the USA.The UKIP surge is a blue print of the Tea Party in America it is identical. Of course within 3 years this great revolution in America they no longer exist they crawled back to the far right of the Reublican party where they belonged in the first place.
The reason for this demise is that they couldn’t keep together the right, far right, left and liberals who flocked to them in 2009. No matter how much money was flung at it they couldn’t stop it from splitting and stop the left and liberals going back to their old political homes.
Within 2 years, By October 2011, according to Time magazine, the Occupy Wall Street movement was twice as popular as the Tea Party movement. Indeed, 65 percent of those polled viewed the Tea Party as having a negative or harmful effect on American politics.
Between fall 2011 and spring 2012, support for the Tea Party among young adults plunged from 51% to less than 30%.
Far from being an independent movement of swing voters, like those of Ross Perot’s Reform Party in 1992, the Tea Party always represented a segment of the Republican Party base, where it now finds its present home.
So can Farage now save UKIP from eating itself. The billions thrown at in America couldn’t and in a prime stomping ground for the right. Farage has niether and probabaly recognises he can’t which is why he stepping down as leader before the inevitable happens.
The far right will be hoping that he can, as it fools both liberals and lefties to vote for it to get a foothold in British politics. Can they do it before the mask of the far right slips and the liberals and the lefties leave it in their thousands in exactly the same way to what happened in America.
The clock is ticking and Farage will no doubt pull out the bags of tricks of that of the Lib Dems. He’ll promise the left and the liberals the earth knowing full well he’ll never get a chance to implement them.
Unless of course he gets in by a hung parliament and then just like the tea party and Lib Dems before them when they won their first seats and power. All be revealed and their masks have been ripped off. We’ll soon see what UKIP is about like the America public did and left them in their millions. The bag of tricks will vanish like a fart in the wind and their far right voting and policies will be as clear as day. A day this country will live to regret just ask America.
Then UKIP will disappear like their bags of tricks before them and float like a fart in the wind leaving a stench so putrid and ghastly behind them that the voters will spew at the very sight of them. Leaving them to crawl back to the far right where they came from.
I’ve sent my tuppence worth Luigi
thanks for the link.
@Ian Brotherhood
Quite correct Ian. I have been socialist for as long as I remember. I vote SNP because most of what they do pleases me and looks more left wing than the Labour Party, who I left behind more than a decade ago.
Nothing wrong with socialist principles. It will come on the other side of this present fight.
Natasha
EVEL: English Votes for English Laws
The massive surge in SNP members is interesting. There seems to be a general assumption that this is unaffiliated Yes activists joining up because they feel they need an organisation now that Yes Scotland is no more. It isn’t and it can’t be.
OK, no doubt there are a few in that category, but for a start I don’t think there were really that many unaffiliated Yes activists in the first place. And secondly, at least round here these aren’t the people who have joined the SNP.
The only unaffiliated Yes activist who has joined our branch is a sixth-form schoolboy who headed up Generation Yes and had announced his intention to join the SNP when he turned 18, a week or two before the actual referendum. The new faces are in general people I have never clapped eyes on before.
Most seem to have been seized with an impulse to join up almost as soon as the No vote was announced, despite having done nothing or almost nothing in the campaign itself. One new member spoke movingly of sitting up all night unable to sleep then going to her computer at six in the morning to get on the SNP web site and apply for membership.
In addition to new members, some long-standing SNP members who didn’t surface during the campaign have emerged from the woodwork. Never seen them at a meeting in five years in this branch, but here they are.
Without meaning to denigrate these people in any way, I diagnose freeloaders’ remorse. People who thought it would just happen and they didn’t have to do any more than maybe put a sticker on their car. I have no idea if having these extra pairs of hands (and feet) during 2013 and 2014 would have made any difference to the result. But the fact is, they’re here now, and they seem to want to make up for lost time.
I think we’ve acquired an army of brand new activists. People unjaded by the referendum campaign, champing at the bit and raring to go, to make up for not contributing earlier. And I think this might make quite a significant difference in 2015.
Muttley79 – I agree at least 60% will be required. I have done some maths and IMO to win another referendum will require 30% of Scottish NO voters (as opp to recent migrant voters) to swap sides to YES – that’s 1/2 million scots to be persuaded. A tall order in 3 yrs but can be done if the movement is focussed and united.
My email you the Kelvin commission
Full fiscal autonomy Scotland was promised and full fiscal autonomy we should have, there is need need for a commission, the agreement was laid out by the “VOW” there is no going back,
we need to have a fully devolved parliament with full tax raising powers including North sea oil revenue with Westminster carrying responsibility for defence and foreign affairs nothing more.
NOTHING LESS WILL BE ACCEPTABLE!
@Ian Brotherhood 8.41pm
I wouldn’t dare slap you! Apart from anything, I’d probably need a stepladder. I might bite your kneecaps though if you really annoyed me. 🙂 xx
Natasha honey take cover – I’m about to go ballistic, Ian Brotherhood my sweet man – how dare you presume that those of us who care about the future would endorse your moribund concept of politics – where is the class system that you are at war with? It has moved on, you are in the trenches and the battle is elsewhere.
@john king
Absolutely John, saw your comment on Pete Wisharts letter.
What was promised must be delivered with no watering down.
Natasha says
“Can someone tell me what EVEL stands for?”
It means English Votes for English Laws
they don’t get the irony of it.
@yesindyref2
Any chance someone could explain where RIC sit please? Are they socialist / left, or just up for change?
As far as I am aware, the RIC is basically the pro-independence left in Scotland. Its made up of Greens, SSP, non-aligned left, trade unionists, members of other socialist parties/groups, some SNP members (I think).
@ Derek Henry
“He is going to find it impossible to introduce policies that keep everybody happy.
He uses examples of immigration, welfare and the deficit and the EU will keep UKIP together.
So how now does he tackle these problems ?
What left, right, far right and liberal tax and spend policies do you use ”
How did Mussolini and Addie do it? How is Marine LePen going to do it?
I reckon that UKIP in office will take a fairly extreme policy on Scotland.
The thing I can’t figure out is whether that policy will be a Scottish Parliament (abolition) Act, or a F*ck off Jock (English Independence) Act. Either gets us to the same place, just with a different fight on the way.
The no voters will be regretting not taking the chance which Salmond created.
AuldA says @ 10 October, 2014 at 8:33 pm
I am in full time employment at moment. However, if it comes to the point that I need employment I am not too proud to take the jobs that you mention. However, that doesn’t mean I will still at that job. I will stay there until there I can get something better. It is up to the employer of these jobs to give incentives to people to stay in these types of jobs like a living wage and decent working conditions (I’ve been there and I can promise you, you are treated like keech). Having a job that isn’t the best situation but personally I’d rather be in employment than out of it.
labour devo proposals Pro-union paper from March
they are digging in,inch by inch
link to scottishlabour.org.uk
British Labour Party are not socialist and have not been for a long time. They had a chance to reclaim it in indyref but blew it.
I want all political views to be heard in Scotland but I would like them to all put the welfare of the people living in Scotland at least in their top 5 priorities rather than as an afterthought or behind their party whip or expenses claims.
@ Derek henry
My contacts in the US tell me that the Tea Party is very much in the driving seat of the Republican Party and have pushed it further to the right.
@Kev says: 10 October, 2014 at 2:16 pm:
“My local labour MP has a whopping 12,000 majority and I will be making it my mission in life to put as colossal a dent into that lead as possible.”
That’s dangerous thinking, Kev. You are taking a two dimensional view of a three/four or more calculation. What I mean by that is the term, “majority”, actually is the wrong term. Here’s the proper explanation of what I’m attempting to explain. It’s convoluted but bear with me : –
“A majority is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set’s elements.” Now compare that to a, “plurality”,. This is a subset larger than any other subset considered. That means a plurality is not necessarily a majority because the largest subset considered may consist of less than half the set’s elements. These people career political people are notorious for sloppy English use. Like Cameron, (the PM of the UK), claiming to be the PM of Britain, such sloppy English leads to wrong conclusions.
In UK English, “majority”, and, “plurality”, are often used as synonyms, and more often than not the term, majority is used to refer to the winning margin.
That is, the number of votes separating the first-place finisher from the second-place finisher and that is quite a different matter to calculate a solution for.
If your man/woman has won a seat with more than one party having stood against him/her than he may not actually have a,majority but only have a, “winning margin”, over several other parties who, between them, have more supporters.
Get the picture now, Kev? If your Labour man/woman has only a first past the post, “winning Margin” and any two of the other parties agree to pool their votes he/she is probably out on their ear.
Now look at your guys chances again but counting, say, SNP, Green and SSP voters all voting as one party together against him. That’s tactical agreement of a movement like YES composed of many like minded parties.
Lesley Anne;
It’s a ‘Unilateral’ Declaration of Independence. i.e. meaning we (Scotland) are doing this all on our ownsome, and we don’t give a flying duck, as to your (meaning the rest of UK’s) views on the matter.
@leginge
Assuming that 75% of migrant vote will always be NO , it means YES have to convince 30% of the indigenous Scots NO voters to swap sides. This can be done in 3 years but will require a stupendous focussed effort.
I think we might have to wait more than 3 years for another referendum on independence. This is our last realistic chance of getting independence, you don’t tend to ever get 3 cracks at independence referendums. I cannot see us getting another one in the that timescale, in fact 10 years is more likely imo.
Of course, there’s the question of when we’ll get ourselves a Real Nationalist Party that’ll oppose EuroUnionism and the folly of encouraging mass English immigration.
Here’s the real face of the EU:
link to theautomaticearth.com
(In the spirit of the imperialists in places like Madrid whom we felt needy enough to try to please.) And not very far removed from the “Stay you ******* morons, we’ll slash you if you don’t” of the bile to be found on the Daily Mule and other Brit comment columns.
I think it was a Golden moment the chance of Independence on the 18th, given that it would take 18 mths to be fully Independent,the world in 18 mths time looks chaotic to say the least
I think gaining Independence might be a lot harder than it was this time around(as if taking on the Empire wasn`t) due to the world problems that are going to come our way.
I still can`t believe that i`m still living in a colony of an empire that has ceased to exist for more than 50 yrs.
Scottish Government proposals sent to Smith:
link to scotland.gov.uk
Sounds just like what Brown and the Three Stouges must have had in mind when they made their promises and Vow. I’m sure they will be in total agreement with this proposal.
Or …..,
@Paula Rose
Natasha honey take cover – I’m about to go ballistic, Ian Brotherhood my sweet man – how dare you presume that those of us who care about the future would endorse your moribund concept of politics – where is the class system that you are at war with?
You don’t think there is a class war going on at the moment? What about the Bullingdon Boys? The horrendous cuts to welfare, while the wealthy get tax cuts. The growing gap between rich and poor. Is that not all class war? I am not a fan of class war ideology, as I believe in trying to make society better for everyone. But how can you deny that the UK government is not involved in a class war?
The sad thing is that Germany, having stood up to the monetarist madness along with Italy and France, now, somewhat inexplicably, seems to be embarking on an austerity policy.
Unless they regain their senses BDQ there will be a serious recession in Europe and probably its disintegration.
They need to start listening to voices of reason like Dr Fassbeck again.
@John King
Freudian slip? He’s Smith of Kelvin. Lord Kelvin was the man who did absolute zero, which may of course be what you think the Commission will do 😉
sp Flassbeck
Contrary to what may be common belief, submission to the Smith Commission link to smith-commission.scot not closed to individuals, but only to political parties.
Individual submissions are still open to those who wish to have their say.
Email the Commission at
handclapping
-273
Oh FFS Muttley79 honey – I’m not that dippit! If I was would I be here rather than on bake off for baked bean special with added antique value?
Let us send 59 pro independence MPs to Westminster in 2015 and we will be independent by March 2016 as originally planned.
For heaven’s sake let us not split the pro independence vote in 2015.
Sorry dolls – I’m off to off-topic, silly of me to be here xx
@Paula Rose –
Sometimes I truly don’t know if you’re just pulling my wire, so to speak.
My point may not have been brilliantly expressed, but the jist of it is simple enough. Doesn’t mean you’re being labelled as a frothing Troskyist.
Extract from blabs submission
Powers to serve Scotland
For the United Kingdom to be an effective union, it is critical that certain core matters remain reserved to the UK Parliament.
Those which are not should be devolved to
the Scottish Parliament. Essential reserved matters include:
? Financial and economic matters – including monetary policy, the currency,regulation, debt management and employment law. Without these, we cannot have a single economy.
? Foreign affairs (including international development) and defence, both of which are central to what defines a nation state.
? The core of the Welfare State – pensions and the majority of cash benefits. These allow the social solidarity that helps bind the UK together.
? The constitution.
Other issues which the Commission has reviewed and concluded should remain reserved are:
? Immigration.
? Drugs, drug trafficking and related laws.
? Betting, gaming and lotteries.
? Broadcasting.
? The civil service.
? Abortion and analogous issues.
Bob Sinclair,
“I’m gutted that UKIP have an MP but also delighted to see this as a pointer to the carnage awaiting the ‘North British – Scottish sub branch – Labour Party’.”
Don’t be gutted – think of the Labour party gloating when UKIP won the 3rd Scottish MEP seat at the SNP/Greens’ expense.
@Nana Smith says:10 October, 2014 at 3:23 pm:
“Peter Murrell tweets Snp membership at 80,000
Last time I looked, Nana Smith, the LibDEem membership was 44,000 and falling fast.
The thing is right, teamGB is spending a third more that it earns which is one of the major whys they didn’t want an independent Scotland. I don’t know what they are going to do if they won’t tax wealth properly, charge for health care? They already charge for uni now putting a whole generation on debt. Crash Gordon just kept borrowing to pay for that end of boom and of boo. Bust teamGB life style but it can’t go on for much longer.
Future Lord Dougie Alexander was on BBC R4 news this morn and he said they can strike back as “I just defeated a popular nationalist movement in Scotland” so UKIP were next. Simpnaughty dude didn’t lol but I did as BBC blasted UKIP triumphalism thrill of it all, blanket coverage hysteria across the kingdom, Go TeamNigel.
we are engaged in a class war but only gradually realising it through gaining an understanding of who we are up against. Only 7% of the uk are privately educated but 90% of the top jobs are held by people drawn from this community and often as not also from OxBridge eg all the corporate company leaders, all the top jobs in whitehall, government ministers, tv / bbc journalists, newspaper journo’s and especially editors, – even the head of the deutsch bank who stated an Indy scotland wid cause a 1930’s depression was an old school chum of Cameron. All these people stepped forward and did their duty for queen and country when they saw the Establishment being challenged by the YES movement in scotland – I’m afraid its always the way when progressive change of the status quo might actually happen – the ruling class shows it’s true colours – and increasingly the labour party are part of that same class
Or even a Trotskyist.
Or even being fingered as one.
I see La Mone has stated we should get the full powers as per The Vow. Wonder if her sales have been dipping…
@heraldnomore –
Aha!
She’s let it slip – she actually KNOWS what was in The Vow?
Michelle Mone, ochone, ochone, why don’t ye leave dem boys alone!
Jim McIntosh,
“I’m sorry but even if the Tories get in and there is an in/out referendum we will not be getting out of Europe.”
I think you are wrong.
A majority in England is hell bent on getting out of the EU, and unlike the Scottish cowards who voted No, English voters are not going to frightened.
If the UK votes to remain in the UK, it will be because of Scottish votes.
Farage will bitterly regret opposing Scottish independence!
Ian
The Scottish Socialist Party pulled its weight in the fight for independence as did the Greens. They are both OK with me. No single party has a monopoly on the truth or good ideas and I would like to see all three in Holyrood. I’m delighted that all the Yes parties are prospering.
A.N. Surgent
The SLAB submission to the Smith Commission you have posted is a complete indictment of their total lack of ambition for Scotland. If anyone needed motivation to campaign for next year’s general election, then all you need to do is read that garbage. Why are SLAB so unambitious for Scotland? Because they would rather retain their 40 plus MPs, than see Scotland flourish. The self preservation and interest of SLAB is their most important guiding belief.
@HandandShrimp –
Cheers mister.
Everyone likes a wee pat on the heid from time to time.
When the Smith commission fails to produce the goods, can we expect a public display of Seppuka from the noble Lord?
…speaking of which, check out
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2#pledges
…now at £1,910.
Brilliant.
@ Robert Peffers
You are of course absolutely right to distinguish between majority, plurality and winning margin.
But in the particular case which prompted your post, there is a male, Labour MP, with a winning margin of about 12,000, ripe for the defeating – or not.
As it happens, I constructed a spreadsheet last night, listing all the Labour MPs in Scotland, with various statistics. Of the 7 who out-polled their nearest rivals by about 12,000, only 3 are men. Their shares of the vote were 49.8%, 47.7% and 51.7% – in the second of those cases, the runner-up was a Tory, and even in the other cases, the non-Labour unionist vote was not negligible.
Percentage turnout, however, was in the low 60s. I think that, in that particular case, whichever one of the 3 it is, it is not sufficient to persuade those who voted last time to get behind a single candidate (even if that were possible) – it is also necessary to encourage people who did not vote at all in 2010 to get out and do so – in the correct way, naturally 🙂 .
There will of course also almost certainly be a larger electorate, if as I believe all the newly-registered voters are still on the roll – although there will be a new roll constructed soon, I think there has been a commitment not to remove anyone purely because they don’t complete the new individual registration forms.
muttley79
No powers whatsoever for Scotland,abysmal, blab have got to go.
heraldnomore says:
“I see La Mone has stated we should get the full powers as per The Vow. Wonder if her sales have been dipping…”
Mones Drooping ?
She must be ‘on the turn’.
Handandshrimp @ 9.47
Hear hear,
seconded.
Defo dear – I do hope you understand that your poor taste meanderings are being read far and wide – please take note boys.
YESMontrose have tweeted:
‘Montrose vote for the #indyref was 49%, so very close! Forfar and Brechin voted No but Arbroath, Carnoustie and Inverkeilor all voted Yes!!!’
Hope Paula Rose is safely in the playroom. 😉
Sob
Lord Smith will, in weeks to come, appear on Reporting North Britain and open a big golden envelope:
‘…and the winner is….The Scottish Labour Party!’
Huzzah!
Huzzah!
God bless Prince Harry!
God bless Strictly!
God bless anything to do with World War One!
etc…
muttley79
60% is exactly the figure I have in mine too. But if we hadn’t had the referendum to awaken interest and put Independence in peoples’ minds, I think support would still be down in the 25-28% range, and wouldn’t budge. It’d still be us old-timers!
Why has BBC Scotland shown twice tonight Ruth Davidson speaking on referendum night, each clip shows after Glen Campbell has tried to get her to retract her earlier comments. Why aren’t they showing the first part where she pits her size nines right in it?????
Paula Rose – hugs and xxxxs. 🙂
They didn’t say the % so maybe it was close.
Jack Straw has marked Milibands card in Daily Mail. The knives are out for Ed as Labour panics over UKIP
Why does BLAB want to keep “The Welfare State” as a UK thing? Its already under strain from London housing costs costing way more and the cash benefits and pensions being too low for London prices. Also the NHS which is part and parcel of the social security system is already devolved, so where is the benefit in keeping pensions and benefits as reserved?
Its probably one of these edges things; instead of the poor bloody citizen getting a seamless service from one body, it might be the Council, or Holyrood, or Westminster. Lots and lots of jagged edges that someone on the greasy pole can exploit to tell the pbc that he/she fixed it for them and now be grateful for the rest of your life by voting for me.
@Roughian
Its been taken down in evidence and may be used in proceedings?
From what I can see, it looks like Lab and Con have already reneged on their last minute promises and vows of substantial new powers and reverted back to the DevoWeeBitMore they talked about earlier in the summer. So there you have it on record to the Smith Commission, they lied throughout the campaign and they lied at the end to dupe and win.
A curio –
One of the WOS posts on this day, two years ago:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The transition of Scotland to a high-wage, high value, high growth economy is one of the primary objectives of Independence. It will create a self- sustaining, high level of internal demand that will mitigate against cyclical economic down-turns.
this message did not get across to the comfortable class during the referendum- without bringing a decent chunk of the comfortable with us we ain’t going to do it
interesting policies that might make them take notice include setting a living wage minimum wage – good for workers and good for Government finances as in work benefits are reduced – why should the state subsidise corporate low pay?
make TESCOs, Wal-Mart,et al pay for their readily available supply of cheap, part-time labour…….
this could be viewed as a ‘radical. right’ idea…….we are best served by being a broad church, the mire in our flock the better,
“Scottish Labour’s Devolution Commission
Final Report
Our Proposals
March 2014”
Considering Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, and Smith himself, the date on Labour’s submission to the Smith Commission will come back to haunt them, and I doubt the Conservatives will allow them to get away with it either.
Possibly a fatal mistake for Labour v Conservatives, not at least to have redone their proposals slightly more adventurous, with a new date on it, like 9th October 2014.
Already the Conservatives can be seen in the rUK to be trying to solve the “Scottish Problem”. Labour aren’t!
Hi Ian B
Just went over to your posted link, felt a bit like a prophetic bit of retro perfect hindsight…..John McAllion was a stalwart Proper Labor MP when i was growing up in Dundee when Dundee was still a safe labour zone.
the party. as we are all familiar with, well and truly left him….sad
i liked your sentiments from earlier re: soc’s bashing, we re not going to get anywhere by turning on each other!
take care all, onwards!
anyone awake?
My spelling and grammar have been atrocious………….
The blabs submission is exactly that, the submission of the Scots
people`s will to that of bankers, corporations and warmongers.
My spling an gramma is wus so dont askme
Im still curious why BLAB want the Welfare State reserved:
I suppose that after sending peeps round the doors to tell the oldsters that their pension books would be taken if they didn’t vote No they could hardly turn round and say Oh by the way we’re making the Scottish Govewrnment responsible for your pension anyway. On the other hand, why not, they’ve the brass neck for it
March 2014 whit!!!!!!!!
If they back track on the VOW, then I’m for a meet ootside Broon’s hoose. And he can repeat to us the lies that he told us that day courtesy of the BBC and the Daily Record.
Always fancied a wee jaunt to Kirkaldy.
@muttley79 says:10 October, 2014 at 7:02 pm:
“I think UDI is in political terms a suicidal thing to do. The American state would not accept it, not least because it would signal severe difficulties for their strategic relationship with the British state.”
Somehow I do not think so, Muttley. Here’s why – The USA are without doubt the most frightened country in the World of being attacked, especially by the Russians. They had, for them, the most frightening experience with 9/11 and have been in an even greater state of the jitters ever since. That is their main motive in maintaining, “The Special Relationship”, with what they think is either,”Britain”, or, “England”, but never stated as with, “The United Kingdom”.
There is well documented reasoning behind this, “Special Relationship”, and any overly romantic ideas of them having, “Come to save out bacon”, in WWII are much more related to Hollywood than fact. The true fact is the USA was struggling with the, “Great Depression”, and took the chance to use WWII to the advantage of the USA. First of all they did NOT gift us anything. If you read the very first words of the, “Cash & Carry Act”, they read, “In Defense of the US …”. In other words the USA administration were acknowledging that they knew it was also their fight or they would not have been, “Defending”, the US by SELLING the allies weapons & supplies. BTW”: at that point the USA was also selling iron to Japan. When the UK ran out of cash the US administration brought out their, “Lend/Lease Act”. This too began, “In defense of the US …”. There was also the swapping of several UK overseas bases, (still held by the US), for 50 WWI destroyers, some that couldn’t even make it across the Atlantic.
It was not until Japan declared War upon the USA, (Pearl Harbour), and Hitler Declaration of war upon them they actually came to fight their own corner. Remember that before then German U-Boats had been sinking USA ships off USA shores without USA reply.
The reason the USA want that, “Special Relationship”, is none other than the strategic, “North Atlantic Gap”, that lies within Scottish Territorial Waters and is the reason they maintained a base in the Holy Loch and now keep their UK based WMD in the Clyde Base. Their actions on Scottish Independence would be to do everything in their power to retain Scotland as a member of NATO so as to maintain a promise the protection needed by getting NATO access to that North Atlantic Gap.
Robert Peffers honey – do you know about my ancestor Hereward the Wake?
@Col The Viking –
Cheers mister.
Don’t know about you, but it all feels very strange right now. Kind of ‘doldrums’. Folk bitching, nipping, same way you see in big crowds/demos, and they’re all at and about each other, striving to make their point, believing that all eyes are on them – then a fringe of the crowd kicks off for no obvious reason, and all hell breaks loose…
‘Something’ will surely happen soon.
Here’s hoping it’s not in George Square this coming Sunday.
A Channel 4 News item tonight on the continuing political engagement post referendum;
link to youtube.com
Oor ain ‘Thistle”s Indiegogo now sitting at £1,910.
Will some heroes now, please, please (that the pubs are shutting) get us over the halfway mark?
Can we do that?
If so, could we please do it NOW so that I can get to bed?
Cheers comrades.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scottish-independence-live-events–2#pledges
@caz-m
Broon disnae live in Kirkcaldy, he stays in North Queensferry. But your point is good, lets start protesting outside his hoose, often.
@ Robert peffers – I’ve had a coupla nippy sweeties tonight but do have at the back of my mind that the reason Japan was pissed off with USA was because the USA had restricted/stopped them getting oil.
James Caithness,
No Vow, then we have to organise a mass Springtime protest in Edinburgh, it will give the Pro-Indy Parties a boost as well, just before the GE in May.
@caz-m says: 10 October, 2014 at 11:20 pm:
“Always fancied a wee jaunt to Kirkaldy”
Weel, caz-m, ye micht hae a wee bitty bother gettin Broon tae notice ye at Kirkcaldy. Ah think he bides doon bi North Queensferry noo.
@Col the Viking
I did think the ‘mire’ in your flock was interesting; Freudian slip or intentional? 🙂
Sorry if I’ve missed out on the discussion but does anybody have any views on the anxieties expressed by
@Elizabeth at 3.02 p.m.?
About a week ago I tried to submit a post (from a slightly different perspective) on the same topic – i.e. worries about immigration felt by some of the Scottish electorate. I now understand that my post was rejected because it contained the banned letter combination ‘nfl’ (I had used the word ‘influence’).
Anyway, following the recent by-election results, let me now repost and ask for comments if there are any.
Over the past year or so I’ve been an avid follower of Wings though, during that time, have only made a couple of fairly inconsequential posts. However, following the 18/9 vote and the ensuing discussions, I’ve become ever more concerned at what I consider to be a general failure to recognize the ‘elephant in the room’ – and it is a HUGE fecking elephant whose name is:
Immigration.
Brief biographical note – (skip it if you like): I am one of those many Scots who in the early eighties was obliged to leave the country to find work. Last year was an important milestone for me – it marked the 30th year of my emigration which meant (much to my great shock) that I had spent more years of my life ‘abroad’ than at home. I did not therefore have a vote in September and am now distraught that I, personally, did next to bugger all to influence that vote, but that’s an issue I’ll have to deal with. Moving on ..
Having spent a number of years in ‘the Garden of England’, I am only too aware of the prevalent and rising ‘little-englander’ mentality in Kent and surrounding counties (and further north, for that matter), and the inevitability of huge gains in those areas for the various proto-nazi parties. I refuse to dignify them by naming them.
In passing, I should also point out that during my residence in this delightful cosmopolitan land I have had numerous lively encounters with the natives including one with a be-suited banker type who, with froth in his mouth, advised me to ‘fuck off back to your own country, you fucking Scotch c**t!’ Sadly, I was obliged to deduce from this meeting, and many similar, that not all English love the Scots like Mr Cameron.
But what is of more concern (and, in my view, should be of immense concern to the independence movement in general) is the fact that such racist/xenophobic/anti-immigration views are held by a number of the Scottish electorate. I had this driven home to me in no uncertain terms when I went back to my home-town a couple of months ago and met up with various friends and family all of whom, you might say, are of a left-leaning, ‘right-on’ persuasion. I discovered, much to my dismay that, frankly, you could promise the majority of these folks the moon, but if you didn’t deal with the ‘furriner’ problem then, you could go feck yourself.
I am sure every Winger is 100% convinced of the importance of immigration for the well-being of any future independent Scottish state but isn’t it time that somebody took a look at that so-called ‘silent majority’ which magically appeared from nowhere on 18 September, and tried to work out the exact nature of the opinions they have been keeping so quiet about?
I fear the approaching by-elections in England will not only radically upset the ‘redandblue tory’ apple-cart but may also serve as a harbinger for Scotland’s future.
The YES movement needs to tackle this issue now.
@Paula Rose says: 10 October, 2014 at 11:35 pm:
“Robert Peffers honey – do you know about my ancestor Hereward the Wake?”
Aye! But I knew him better as either, “Hereward the Outlaw”, or, “Hereward the Exile”, and he was the leader of those that fought for freedom from the Normans but that may not really have shown much, “Wisdom”.
(I’ll get My PJs)!
Caz-m
Aye GB stays along the road from me. The patrol cars often seen filling up in tne esso garage in Dalgety Bay.
I could maybe keep them busy there while you and a few boys went round to his house 🙂
Fat boab honey – no problem doll, us anarchistic punks have taken over the body politic of Scotland since the 18th of September as the inhabitants of that land are too wee, poor and stupid to make up their own minds, politically genetically piss poor and astonishingly – they agree.
Husker @6.11pm
“…An independent Scotland needs to be a society where things are done the right way not the same way on a tinier scale. Going for the right way may lose support in the short term but if the argument can be won and it will then we will benefit in the long term because we held true to our values.”
I found your post to be a very intelligent and considered insight into the true rationale for Independence and it echos my own viewpoint.
To my mind tribalism is at the heart of our political culture and establishment; combative, competitive ‘dog eat dog’, ‘greed is good’ et al. This is mirrored within the wider culture and one informs and reflects and feeds of the other; a kind of ‘closed loop’ relationship, symbiotic if you will, has been formed in this way. It is a powerful confirmation loop between those that ‘lead’ and the ‘follower’. It’s such a successful model that it drives and informs policy making at the so called higher echelons of our society and again this is the real trickle down mirroring or emulation that we are up against. It is in essence the how of what maintains the ‘status quo’.
The dissemination and encouragement of these tribal values are filtered through the general main stream outlets; newspapers, pulp tv including ‘reality’ shows, all play an important role in maintaining the ‘status quo’. Also our so called ‘news’ is shaped to fit the narrative of binary choices within the political context; soundbites, branding and marketing being deployed as weapons of mass conditioning.
People in general do not realise that they are not actually ‘electing’ a politician. They are preselected by the ‘party’ and presented as thier choice, and we, the people, are to be persuaded with all the above techniques to choose one over another who has been selected by thier group in exactly the same manner.
That 45% of us voted for some sort of rebalancing of those values, is downright miraculous in the face of the overwhelming onslaught that is our present societal and cultrual ‘norm’. And I agree we have to hold to our true values…in the short and long term. Simply because as you say things have to be ‘done the right way not the same way’.
We do know there is an alternative and we are fighting for that, and we will not give up. Because it is not the case as it is being potrayed; that we are driven from some misplaced ‘nationalistic’ ethnic impulse. It is our humanity, our decency and our commom sense that informs our desire to break from an archaic, undemocratic form of governance that has lost touch with humanity, decency and common sense.
One of the main encouraging outcomes of the referendum can’t be overstated and that is that many thousands, nay hundreds of thousands of us became re engaged and found each other. Found that we were not alone after all in seeing the ‘madness’ of what is taking place, and could see the real possibility of an alternative; We do care, we do know the difference between what is right and wrong, we do know when we are being conned and lied to.
One candle in the darkness makes a profound difference to our perceptions, it literally helps us to see what hitherto could not be seen. A million plus candles can make sure that darkness never consumes our perceptions again.
We need to keep spreading the light; in doing so ‘we will benefit in the long term because we held true to our values’.
Grand Poppy Robert (long post) Peffers xxx
That’s me on a list somewhere 🙂
@Fat boab
It worries me too, I have encountered it more often than I care to think about. However, as with any other politicising process, it is a matter of small steps; get them on side for Yes and the rest can follow, because you’ve already got them to question both their previous assumptions and the motives of those in power. They learn to look beyond the face value of things.
Rome wasn’t built in a day, and the crucial difference between Yes and No is that Yes voters are for something, whereas No voters are reacting against something. Being anti-immigration is a reaction of fear against the unknown, but if you have become part of a movement based on a belief in making things better, then you have already taken a crucial step away from fear and towards hope. The key change is in the mindset.
Maybe Rome wasn’t such a good metaphor, all things considered . . . and don’t anybody dare start up all the Judean People’s Front stuff again!
@Fat boab says: 11 October, 2014 at 12:23 am:
“I fear the approaching by-elections in England will not only radically upset the ‘redandblue tory’ apple-cart but may also serve as a harbinger for Scotland’s future.
The YES movement needs to tackle this issue now.”
I may be wrong but it is my impression that most of those who express such views tend to be from a certain sectarian pair of sectarian section of the Scottish population who are themselves descended from immigrants from Ireland.
On the other hand I know many English born members of the SNP and there are at least six elected person’s at present among our MP and MSPs.
Seriously, this is Labour’s submission to the Smith Commission? A letter saying they are enclosing the proposal from last March? The one we all laughed at and called devo nano?
What kind of insult is this? They might as well just spit in all our faces.
I give up! Unless you geld the BBC you can forget about UDI etc. The ‘silent majority’ will fuck up any prospect of Independence. …because they will never know any better because of indoctrination by the state broadcaster. If you don’t get that then you are truly fucked.
Wow, someone already saw Heywood and Middleton happening:
link to wingsoverscotland.com.
@Robert Peffers at 12.23 a.m.
Nah, Robert, you’re way off there, I think.
But, having said that, I may have misunderstood what you meant.
When you referred to a ‘sectarian section of the Scottish population who are themselves descended from immigrants from Ireland’ did you mean to imply that I, or the majority of those who were concerned about the rise of anti-immigrationist views in Scotland were of the Protestant persuasion or did you mean Catholic? To use your phrase ‘I may be wrong but ‘ your comment strikes me as a bit daft, to put it gently.
I am not sure but, if it is of so much interest to you, I think I personally am of Nordic stock – it’s never really bothered me – my Communist parents brought me up to have an atheistic and internationalist perspective on life – but to set your mind at rest, I will tell you this: I have no connection, familial or otherwise, with Ireland whatsoever, though I do enjoy the odd pint of Guinness (Hmm, I hear you think, suspicious, eh?)
Let’s be serious, do you think immigration is a topic worthy of discussion on this thread or not, and, by the way, why the hell shouldn’t catholics, protestants, atheists, Jedi knights or anybody else for that matter be allowed to have a say?
As for your comment about ‘English -born’ members of the SNP, what’s that to do with the ‘prix de poissons'(a wee comment there for AuldA to translate – he must be feeling left out)
Labour’s submission to the Smith commission is pathetic.
So much for Gordon Browns promises of ‘as close to federalism as you can get’
Not even full income tax devolution !!
It’s almost as if they don’t understand that 45% voted for full independence. Let alone support Devo-Max.
I wonder how the USA has kept together, when states have far more powers than Scotland, and can compete with each other via personal, sales and business taxes.
Not allowing Scotland to compete, when the South East has so many natural advantages is actually anti-Scottish.
We don’t have a level playing field at the moment, and Labour wants to keep it that way.
They don’t even want Scotland to be able to reduce air passenger tax to get more direct flights, rather than tourists going through Heathrow.
I hope the Scottish people really wake up to them.
The Labour and Unionist party: Less powers than the Tories !!
Since it’s (perhaps) the end of this thread, any chance of a bit of feedback on this, my attempt at an article:
link to yesindyref2.wordpress.com
Thanks!
Paua-Rose says
“Defo dear – I do hope you understand that your poor taste meanderings are being read far and wide – please take note boys.”
What?
does that mean I dont get to make a Rudolph Walker gag?
then what about a Jack Smethurst gag?
Nina Baden Semple?
Whooaa Nina Baden Semple!
she can move in next door to me anytime she likes!
Mmmmm sniff yawn stretch
Wow I just had an amazing dream,
It was 1972 I was wearing a cheesecloth shirt, 18″ bell bottoms hair down to my ar- er- armpits
and blue suede boots,
what?
I didn’t say I had taste did I?
and I watched Barbie and Bill moving in next door to Eddie and Joan, and saw Barbie bend down (in tight hot pants) to pick up the kettle out of the moving home boxes, and I was in love
She’s in my list, (and its laminated) 🙂
Please don’t take it personally Paula-Rose 😉
Well hot digity, instant posting is back yeehaa
Re me @ 7.34
Well I was 18 years old, it was a hormones thing, I’ve just about conquered it now. 🙁
Goldurnit, spoke too soon,
meanwhile here’s a short interlude guaranteed to make you cry!
link to youtube.com
Lochside @ 12.51
What Lochside says.
@yesindyref2
11 October, 2014 at 5:25 am
Was “beast of both worlds” deliberate or just a typo?
Interesting read, but I’ve always been a bit uncomfortable about cosying up to unionists. I’d be inclined to step back and watch as the unionists tear each other apart in the pursuit of their westminster goals, then go big on exposing their willingness to betray Scotland as the VOW falls apart and is exposed for what it always was, i.e. a well-timed distraction aimed at those who were almost persuaded to vote YES.
Ian Brotherhood says
“Lord Smith will, in weeks to come, appear on Reporting North Britain and open a big golden envelope:
‘…and the winner is….The Scottish Labour Party!’”
That post made my heart sink,
because I know your right!
link to newsnetscotland.scot
Natasha
Mire! Piss poor spelling too late at night but also a pretty good Freudian……….
yesindyref2 says:any chance of a bit of feedback on this,
Yep, I’ll take that – any day, till Indy.
Cheers
Ian B
Hopefully the rally today is a joyous success and we should all be focusing on the real ‘enemy’, the Peoples Front of Judea, I mean the Romans, I mean the Unionists!
😉
rally Sunday’s?
Thanks Nana for the link to the Newsnet article. Timetable slipping again? Perhaps they don’t understand Scots contract law. Is there a solicitor out there who could drop them a line about this?
Also noticed a good article on the WFI meeting in Perth by Gillian Martin. Much superior to the first article Newsnet published and worth reading.
link to newsnetscotland.scot
The More I watch Ukip the more see a cat flung in among the Pigeons, the Anarchist Party is what they should be called, Farage cuts of the chickens head then BBC supple them with media so we can watch labour and conservitives run about like headless chickens……when people do things for shock value it has a purpose no 100% sure what Ukip are up to but I think they are a tool of the tories, or the tories have started using them as a Tool, they also are praying on peoples fears and thinking their outspoken views are opinions of the silent electorite, but like any party they haven’t came up with Job creations just continue to blame a sections of society , I.E pitting the poor off the poor through fear , I’m sure this is how Hilter came into power, somebody PLEASE correct me if I am wrong! either that Nigel need to stop listening to track 23 off the wall and admit he took a bad acid back in the 90’s and those lyrics messed with his mind 😀
@yesindyref2
Makes sense to me. 🙂
Inclusion is the only way to do this right.
@Husker:
It is up to the employer of these jobs to give incentives to people to stay in these types of jobs like a living wage and decent working conditions (I’ve been there and I can promise you, you are treated like keech).
That would be possible if subcontractors were chosen for QoS rather than on a purely economical criterion. Since it is almost always the society that bids the cheaper estimate that wins the contract, the salaries and working conditions are to be kept to a bare minimum not to increase the bill.
Having a job that isn’t the best situation but personally I’d rather be in employment than out of it.
That’s your (seemly) personal point of view. But not everyone thinks alike. Net result is that often these kinds of jobs end up being ‘filled in’ by immigrants with low educational profile.
@Fat boab:
As for your comment about ‘English -born’ members of the SNP, what’s that to do with the ‘prix de poissons'(a wee comment there for AuldA to translate – he must be feeling left out)
I’m touched by your amenity! Really! It’s true that, as an outsider, I cannot really mingle into deeply involved discussions about English politics I just dabble in. Neither can I, and I deeply regret it, aid in the organization of meetings or other social events, except maybe by donating some money. However, it is amazing how French and British politics look alike, with “socialists” giving only lip service to ‘true’ socialism (matter of fact, both our “socialist” parties are center-right) and the threat of a far-right populist party attracting more and more workers betrayed by the broken promises and a political line that is only “left-winged” in words. That’s why I freely commented on this UKIP issue.
As for the relations between French and English “traditional” right-wing parties to their respective far-right peers:
link to youtube.com
So Brown is at odds with Labour over powers. “as close to federalism” = less on offer than Tory. Will we hear from Brown? Or is Brown a complete and utter liar? Why is the Scotch media not at Brown’s door?
NICOLA Sturgeon has called for “devo-max” for Scotland, as she unveiled proposals to put Holyrood in charge of almost all tax-raising and policy-making apart from defence, foreign affairs and the currency.
link to archive.today
Farage’s face is ideal for The Simpsons.
Sturgeon’s demand from devo-plus talks: full control of all taxes and welfare
The Scottish Government has called for Holyrood to be given full control of all taxes and welfare in its submission to the commission tasked with reaching a consensus on further devolution.
link to archive.today
Apparently we have Coburn in Largs manning a UKIP stall this morning. There was talk of nipping out and lobbing a few chips at his feet…..the 5,000 seagulls doing the rest 🙂
Fat boab@12.23
I absolutely agree with you. I have some relatives who live in the south of Edinburgh, who voted No, because they feel a dreadful influx of European and African nationals, get all the benefits that we Scots should get! It doesn’t matter how many times in discussion that I’ve said we need immigrants, they do not see it like that! They would not vote for that Alecsummin because he wants to bring in even more! They read the English papers and have said that they would even vote UKIP! They believe that the problems of immigration in England are the same problems up here. I do believe in Edinburgh, that was one of the reasons Edinburgh voted No. They are not religious nor have ancestors from Ireland! They and their friends blame the SNP for their problems, because the Daily Record and it’s like, say so.
The SNP really do have to do much more to persuade people that Scotland needs immigrants and try to persuade them before next year that these people do not walk into Scotland, get a house and benefits immediately. I’ve lost the argument!
@H:
The More I watch Ukip the more see a cat flung in among the Pigeons, the Anarchist Party is what they should be called,
Don’t insult Anarchy. I mean the true one, with a capital ‘A’, i.e. the auto-regulation by reasonable and highly educated people, capable of social interaction and collaboration without the need of coercition by state and laws. That is the ideal towards which we all should tend: everything freely available, machines doing all kind of things and small voluntary work (~ ca. 3 hours/week) for what the machines can’t do.
Rousseau said ‘The woes of Humanity began when someone fenced his garden and said: “This is mine”’. That was topped by the idiot who, 3,000 years ago, claimed that dignity was only to be found in work. Had those two morons not existed (or had nobody listen to them), the world would have been merrier.
should have said ‘this weekends rally’, apols for the bum steer ,
H
Hitler was a master politician and also a master exploiter of fear blaming lots of sections of society fir Germanys ills during the 20s then during the depression in the 30s. handily for him the sections of society he blamed were also his main political enemies!
however, his rise to power was purely by ‘democratic’ means, exploiting the Wiemar consitution to hol dfrequent elections until the National Socialists had a majority of MPs. the Social Democrats remained a near equal oppostion, however when Hitler then won the Election for President / Chancellor the game was up.
demonising Jews first and foremost, trade unionists, gypsies, slavs, gays, comminists and other undesirables the Nazis swiftly consoldiated power in a one party state and started to implement some of their more toxic policies.
In parallel they alos took on the international banks and finances houses,turned the economy round big style (infrastructure investment, public works, only paid foreign countries / clients in ‘barter’ of indigenous German goods, etc) – this marked improvement in the standard of living for the average German was gladly welcomed, a significant break from the war guilt of the first world war peace settlement and the ‘November Criminals’ that signed it i.e. the previous political class.
the preceived German injustices of the Versaille First World War peace treaty was then the focus of Hitlers foreign policy as he started the march across Europe, was appeased by the other powers and the second world war followed with all the associated horros on all sides.
Farage and UKIP are similar in many ways, the biggest resonance they are striking is an out of touch political class who have never worked or had a real job, let alone needed to use a foodbank ,
By refusing to engage with voters in what is their, in many areas, biggest concern – uncontrolled immigration, which, as per the various treaties, cannot be stopped if the UK remains in the EU, the main political parties are merely exacerbating the disillusionment.
As mentioned there are parallels……..but who wouldnt want to take on the bankers and the global financial elite right now?
Indyref2
You requested feedback re your blog.
If Westminster doesn’t deliver it hacks off 78% of Scotland who may decide to vote for Indy via the 2015 and 2016 elections. Indy Ref 2 in 2016.
::::::::::::::
It will not deliver.
The noble lord has already put out a clarion call for compromise by parties and insisted that not all of them will get what they want.
What it does deliver will be subject to media soap and lather.
It will have the Unionist parties uttering humbug about having the most of the best of both worlds.
It wlll be hailed as a triumph for common sense.
A chunk of the ” No but ” voters will be bought off by all of the above.
How big a chunk ? That is the battleground.
Ps your blog was a good summary of the possibilities.
@HandandShrimp
11 October, 2014 at 9:49 am
Seagulls – Brilliant! The forces of nature unite against UKIP. Think NIKE’s slogan: “Just do it!”
Paula Rose ,
We’re you at the recent WFI meeting in Perth?
Flower of Scotland says
“The SNP really do have to do much more to persuade people that Scotland needs immigrants and try to persuade them before next year that these people do not walk into Scotland, get a house and benefits immediately. I’ve lost the argument!”
No doubt many of those people who think that way don’t get the irony that the only contact they have with their grandkids is through a Skype conversation to the kid living in Australia.
Mealer says
“We’re you at the recent WFI meeting in Perth?”
Snigger. 🙂
Fat Boab’s “prix de poissons” made my morning, the banter o the banter!
Now for the croissants & condensed milk, try it 🙂
O/T
If you just cant wait until tomorrow for a Rally, then why not get yourself down to the Mound in Edinburgh today at 2pm.
There is a demonstration planned this afternoon against the Trans Atlantic Trade Agreement or T-TIP as it is better known. It’s a “bring your own robot outfit”, but they do say if you don’t have your own, they might have a spare one for you.
link to facebook.com
This is the Trade Agreement where they want to get access to our NHS. Very serious consequences when it gets the go-ahead. The Scottish Government is opposed to there involvement in the Scottish NHS.
Mealer, you know not how hilarious that question is.
Aye H, It’s almost as if ukip are a manufactured conduit for great british exceptionalism. If as I think, they are the right wing faction of the conservative party, it has allowed them to take the ‘temperature’ of the underlying barely disguised racism that is at the core of the devout britnat mentality.
There is a fundementalism that is being openly pursued here. Many of that older generation, and thier offspring have been subject to conditioning during and after the war years to believe that what makes great britain great is it’s superior capacity to sort out the ‘natives’ in other lands. The superiority of ‘british values’, the ‘foreigner’ ever ‘primitive’ and sorely lacking in ‘civilised behaviours’ that only british values applied can curb and by doing so bring them into line.
Farage is the ‘sunny’ face of ‘britishism’, the focus is immigration for a reason. It allows that most uncivil of all human values, racism, to be openly expressed and now pursued as a matter of policy. The conervatives couldn’t have done it without ukip. They lurch further right because it is thier core believe that the ‘purity’ of our great british ‘way of life’ is being diluted by the foreigners within our communities. It’s back to that feedback loop I mentioned in a previous post.
Ukip provides the platform and because he is being promoted as ‘an ordinary guy’ that ‘ordinary’ people can identify with, it’s now becoming ‘normal’ to openly support a racist agenda, to voice concerns about how ‘they’ are the cause of our problems in our communities.
In faux reactionary fashion the conservelabs, supported fully by the libliars, can now openly begin this ‘cleansing’ of our communities; this leads directly to our removal from Europe, so that we no longer have to deal with the open door policy of sharing our land with the ‘foreigners’. Oh, don’t get me wrong, there is the ‘useful foreigner’, and the ‘demonised’ foreigner.
The oligarchs and thier money, the ‘foreign’ investment is still permissable, it’s those damn pesky religious ones we want rid of, I mean, sharia law! Good grief, they are going to take over and we can’t have that in our country!
This is the ‘silent’ majority. This is what is being played out on our tv screens and screamed out from the newspapers. That generation is not ‘progressive’ in any way shape or form. They came out in thier droves to prevent our independence.
It doesn’t matter how much we all know on here about the fallacies of those beliefs, the hoodwink, the manipulations and machinations. This is core belief that is being tapped into.
That is why the ‘establishment’ turned on us. We became the ‘foreigner’ and the pavlovian salivation begun. Thier ears hear that whistle, the frequency can only be heard by those who resonate with those british values.
It’s as Natasha said above, it’s threat and fear at the heart of it. This is what ignorance does. We all know that it’s been with us our whole lives, and we have all no doubt come across it within our own families, neighbourhoods, work envrionments. It’s all pervasive.
Now that silent pervasive fear is being given credence by the establishment. They will flock to ukip, and will only flock back to thier natural conservative or labour home when the true right wingers in power provide the only solution they want.
Job done for Nige the Kingmaker. Enter Boris, stage right.
Just mailed my MP for the first time ever. Pamela Nash labour. I found a photo on her twitter page of a WOS banner in Airdrie town centre, in the week before the referendum. Under the pic she wrote, ” vile Wings over Scotland”. I just couldn’t let that go! So I have asked to explain her hatred of WOS, considering 800,000 Scot read it. Could it be the exposure of Labour Party lies? Or a hatred of political accountability, freedom of political expression or freedom of speech? The truth is probably all of the above. She could alway ask her sponsors at “Labour Friends of Isreal” for advise on democracy. I await her considered reply.
Morag,
You may find the idea of Paula Rose in a church hilarious.Others will find it deeply disturbing.But
everyone is welcome in the house of God.Even Paula Rose.Equality! Liberty! An’ an ingin een an’ a’! SNP meeting at Northern Hotel,Brechin Sunday 2pm.I think.
The result in the Heywood byelection is not in conflict with the polling of a 20 point Labour lead. What’s obvious is a lot of Labour voters simply sat on their hands and didn’t vote. The turnout was barely 30%.
The real story is how badly that reflects on Milliband.
Mealer
Don’t tell anyone else but Paula-Rose is a man
don’t tell anyone else. shhh 😉
Paula Rose is not a man.Paula Rose is a legend.
My legs end in a delightful pair of feet that are shod in beautiful high heels – but entering a church – I think not!
@john king – Don’t tell anyone else but Paula-Rose is a man
Eh!..Like this you mean…
link to youtube.com
[…] A few days ago (and by criteria unknown), Wings Over Scotland was deemed the third most influential politics blog in the UK, which was nice. The #1 was LabourList, which today published a piece on last night’s two election results. […]
@Paula Rose:
but entering a church – I think not!
It’s a pity, not because your risk eternal damnation in Hell’s hottest brazier, but simply because some cathedrals and/or churches are really fine pieces of architecture. Especially stained glass that, obviously, you can’t admire from outside.
@Fat boab says: 11 October, 2014 at 1:36 am:
“Nah, Robert, you’re way off there, I think.
But, having said that, I may have misunderstood what you meant.”
I think you have indeed misunderstood, Fat Boab, I’m not making any judgements over Protestants or Roman Catholics, per se. The entire history of Scotland, including the Union, has hinged upon sectarianism among Christians. Sectarianism which still has its dirty fingers in every aspect of Scottish life. Neither did I make any personal judgement of yourself.
There are no doubt is a section of the people of Scotland who fear immigrants but this faction is dwarfed by sectarianism as witnessed by the ugly scenes in Glasgow’s George Square. All one needs do is read Article II of the Treaty of Union with the realisation this Article still remains in importance above that of Article III to see how sectarianism stems from the very heart of the Union establishment at Westminster. (and I quote) : –
“THAT the Succession of the Monarchy to the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and of the Dominions thereto belonging, after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in Default of Issue of Her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelfth Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, Intituled, An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject: And that all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and forever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging, or any Part thereof, and in every such Case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person being a Protestant, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same in case such Papist or Person marrying a Papist, was naturally Dead according to the Provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.”
There is indeed still a sectarian faction that has no real Scottish political, (or perhaps even Christian), motive for being anti-independence. It is based upon Northern Irish politics and hate. What else would you think the attack upon independence supporters, NAZI salutes and the burning of Scottish Saltires represented post the referendum result was? The evidence is that among the attackers were those imported for the attack from N. Ireland?
Just ask Scottish Police if they have more trouble with anti-immigration or sectarianism. BTW: I have no religion so have no side to choose in the matter.
Great Aeticle Rev. Stu
“Get ready for 2017, folks. There might be an unexpected second chance coming.”
Music to my ears!!!
Rev. Stu Great Article
Get ready for 2017, folks. There might be an unexpected second chance coming.
Music to my ears!!
TYRAN says: 11 October, 2014 at 9:37 am:
“… is Brown a complete and utter liar?”, “Why is the Scotch media not at Brown’s door?”?
Methinks you really know the answer to both questions, TYRAN, as do we all.
Free Scotland, manandboy, Macart and Macnakamura
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, Beast of both worlds was deliberate, almost certainly the most effective slogan of the NO campaign. For those not too interested it gets into the subconcious, and helps set the “don’t know, no change, vote NO” minsdset.
Despite Smith, I think there’s a fair chance something near Devo-Max will be delivered and pigs might fly. The trick will be to keep the public watching, and not let them move from their 68% or more in favour of “devo-max” stance.
It’s ineresting seeing posters in the media, who are now saying that all that was promised was the Labour / Tory version of DM, whereas before the referendum they were pushing the DM / Brown / Record view to get a NO vote. It defines the line between the genuine posters, and the political party plants amongst posters.
Oh Aye, and “If you don’t know, vote NO”, that was a killer in the last few days, with no time to counter it either. The NO campaign, at the end, were very clever.
The USA holds it’s country together by fear – of the Russians, the communists, al quaeda, Ebola, killer bees – I kid u not on that last one, etc.
The UK has now jumped on that band wagon – an exercise today to see if we could cope with an Ebola outbreak is taking place today.
Re the Americans and NATO – I know some SNP members/supporters were really angry about that one.
My take on it was that AS is a pragmatist and probably knew if NATO membership wasn’t supported the Americans would have been involved in the indy ref campaign in a big way – having said that they probably still were
The Labour Party’s problem is quite simple. It cannot support powers for Scotland that the voters in the South of England are noisely opposed to and it can’t win a General Election without the votes of the South of England.
The English voters already believe that benefits that the Scottish government have secured for the Scottish people are paid for by the English taxpayer
So the loyal Labour Party here, trapped by this perception, is bravely committing suicide and betraying Scotland on behalf of Milliband and Balls.
It will be interesting to watch the Scottish media trying to save them
It’s got to be remembered that Scottish Labour, Lamont & Co, did want to devolve all income tax, but were squashed by Douglas Alexander and the Westminster machine.
Lamont has a constant battle for control, looks like winning it, then gets stabbed in the back and loses again, while Murphy swoops in and makes her even more uneasy.
This is a major weakness that should be constantly exploited.
link to metro.co.uk
Stuart, I read somewhere that UKIP is the Tories in exile, and I heard some voters in interviews the other night describing themselves as ‘Thatcherites.’ So that’s where they’re coming from.
The sad thing about modern Labour is that they’ve lost their raison d’être and become an ‘Agenda’ party, and ScoLab is a poor imitation of the national party. A generation ago they sold out their principles and changed the party into a career structure for clever boys like Ed and Dave Milliband, nice enough lads but not as leaders of a party that should be supporting the workers, whom they have little experience of. The English voters have had enough of them ignoring their concerns about immigration and the EU. We’ve been protected from a lot of the difficulties up here. Remember Gordon Brown’s faux pas when he called Gillian Duffy, a Rochdale pensioner, a bigot when she tried to engage him in a discussion about it? Agenda politics doesn’t want discussion. Incidentally, she still votes Labour.
I desperately hope that the SNP or a YES Alliance win all the seats in both the UK and Scottish YES parties will all the seats in UK and Scottish elections. I’ll be volunteering for the SNP or the Yes alliance.
yesindyref2
Yes. The power to raise tax (that is already collected) on ourselves but it was plain we would get no power to lower it.
Income tax is a very small part of our taxation revenues anyway so the deception Labour were offering was something that sounded good but was basically hardly significant at all.
Corporation Tax, Excise Duty, Oil and Gas revenues and VAT make up over 80% of Scotland’s taxation revenues.
@ John King 11:45 – In your dreams honey.
This sums it up for me. I didn’t watch or listen to the Scotland game. I have very little interest after the referendum. I just saw the result we won by an own goal! Anyway my no voting father in law and no voting brother in law went to the game . They probably sang be a nation again without even feeling some shame! I was behind a guy in Lidl with a lion rampant T Shirt in Linlithgow. He said he wasn’t ever paying his BBC licence again to the check out guy. He drove away in a car that had at least 50 yes badges on it. I want to say well done big man absolute beauty get it right up them. If you are reading wings keep up the good work. I think I will start wearing my Scottish T Shirts again. But not the football ones. I will leave that to the pretendy Scots and 90 minute patriots!
Loch side comments “spot on”.state propaganda will be as per
Usual thee major influence on “the devo Jackie Bird settlement”
And the “general Jackie” 2015 election outcome.
Number 1 on devo demands “BROADCASTING” under Edinburgh
Control!
If we ever get to an EU referendum in 2017, you can be sure as hell we’ll be staying in, no matter what the disenfranchised of Clacton think, no matter how the country votes. It’ll be a rerun of the independence referendum, we’ll get the result that the establishment wants, by fair means or foul. Why let a tiresome thing like a democratic vote get in the way of “what’s best”?
In both referenda what’s at stake is much too important to be left to toothless Englishmen huddling in the blasted wastelands of Essex (ooh, les francais sont mechants quand ils parlent des anglais) or rabid, yet romantic nationalists in Scotland who just want their own stuff back.
Referenda are there to be manipulated-anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. I’m confident the SNP know all this much better than I, and are playing their true cards very close to their chest. And so it should be. The best way to achieve our ultimate aim is to vote SNP in 2015, and they should be unopposed by any other independence party. A large block of SNP MPs marching down to WM sends an unequivocal message and a moral mandate for independence. No other country in recent times has had to do more than that.
After independence is the time for the Greens, the SSP etc. The challenge will be to stop the inevitable backsliding into tribal territory- for many, a WM election is somehow different terrain from an independence referendum. For the latter you just had to say yeah or nay, the former is comfortable and familiar psychological territory where a political party is listed, and that is a terribly difficult habit to break……unless the unionist parties continue to make dismissive mistakes, which we all hope they
will.
And to the low-grade and paid trainee spooks reading this, and you can be sure they will know of Stu’s exalted staus in the blog hierarchy, “Here’s tae ye, and we’ll gie ye a guid chase, right oot o’ the Scotland Office”.
I have form with such types, in a completely different subject area.
Gordon Brown says unionist parties should unite around his plan for “powerhouse” Holyrood
a parliament he avoids
BfH: Gordon Brown says unionist parties should unite around his plan for “powerhouse” Holyrood – a parliament he avoids
Like the plague. (Good point)
Someone should really say that there’s still no earthly reason why the UK leaving the EU would be a good thing for us in Scotland. Even if we were independent we share a single market with the rest of the UK and it would be completely against our interest to have them on the outside of the EU’s single market (or in some Norwegian style limbo between the two).
That needs to be said because I can already see people arguing we should be campaigning for a “leave” vote in 2017 just to force another indyref back on the agenda. That would be complete madness in my view – exactly the sort of emotional knee-jerk response that we should be avoiding. Indeed a Brexit wouldn’t just damage us, it could completely undermine the EU itself. It would be an utter disaster for everyone involved and we shouldn’t let a populist idiot like Farage lead us into that mess.
Why do they say ‘More GPS’, are they lost?
Can I post yet Rev??
Great turnout in George Square today, saw the Wings banner from afar. Just to show how far careerist Labour politicians have drifted from their roots, not one of them could have shown their face on the platform this afternoon without being howled down. In Glasgow, which they for yonks have considered their own feifdom.
Tireless Tommy Sheridan, a star.
Lets not forget another little cheastnut of UKIP is the abolition of Devolution.
With a coalition Govt of Tories and UKIP it wont take a great effort for the UKIP contingency to get the extreme Tory right or indeed the middle Tory right on board for the total abolition of the Scottish Parliament.
We many never get another opportunity for a referendum. The path to Independence may very well end up being Civil strife and insurrection if all Democratic avenues are removed.
Can I ask why we want to be in the EU with the TTIP thing going on?
I have NO voting friends who are furiously telling me they will vote “anyone but SNP” in retaliation for 2 years of debate that led to nothing and was thus a complete waste of time (in their eyes).
So although I’m voting “anyone but Labour” and “anyone but Tory” in elections from now on, we can’t ignore there may be an angry NO-led front that weakens the SNP in both 2015 and 2016 elections.
The politically asleep are now awake – but on both sides…
Your mythical furiously NO voting friends are unlikely to weaken the SNP as they wouldn’t have voted for it in the first place.
In parts of the country the SNP’s membership is up 500%, get real.
Interesting times ahead. I hope SNP return a substantial number of MPs in 2015, and keep nipping at the heels of the Tory/UKIP coalition. The bonus is that the Lab MPs who spoke against independence, for the protection of their place at the trough, will fade into obscurity, (with perhaps the occasional foray into publicity with appearances on Big Brother or Strictly) and will serve as a deterrent for others who may be inclined to follow the WM narrative for purely selfish reasons. Come the next referendum, and there will be another one, and the vows have been proven to be nothing more than wasted space in MSM, they just won’t have any arguments that haven’t already been proven to be nothing but empty words.
I’m also looking forward to the Holyrood elections, particularly the frantic scramble for power from SLAB.
I have supported SNP since the 60s & remember a time when 45% would have been beyond anyone’s wildest dream. We’re nearly there. We just need a few more spiteful contributions from WM to secure it. Onwards & upwards.