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Wings Over Scotland

The island within an island

Posted on May 18, 2018 by

Our poll of English voters has already revealed that, on balance, the people of England would be happy to ditch Scotland, Northern Ireland and (very narrowly) Gibraltar as the price of Brexit. But what about if we approached the idea of England’s independence the other way round? We thought of that too.

If England was already independent, its electorate would (by almost 3 to 2) be happy to join up with fellow Leave voters in Wales, but only fractionally over half of English people would want to enter a union with Scotland if they weren’t already in one.

(To be fair, they’ve already had most of the oil, so we’re not quite as attractive a bride as we once were.)

Considerably fewer fancied taking on Northern Ireland, but fairly substantial minorities were keen on the idea of entering a sort of mini-EU with one or more of France, the Netherlands and Belgium. English people are weird. But it certainly appears that an awful lot of them think that the UK has had its day and they’d rather just go it alone.

(And only a bit over a third wanted to be joined with all three other UK nations.)

Super-alert readers may also recall that in our first ever Panelbase poll, way back in August 2013, just 18% of Scots said they’d vote for a union with England if Scotland was currently independent, with 55% saying no. Looking back on the past 300 years, it looks increasingly like hardly anyone thinks it was such a great move.

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  1. 18 05 18 14:56

    The island within an island | speymouth

100 to “The island within an island”

  1. starlaw

    No independent country has opted to join up with England. Who are they kidding.

  2. Bob Mack

    At least it’s going the right way for indy.

    Not long before we in Scotland also become “furriners”, if that has not already happened. The Union is definitely showing signs of fracturing —from both ends.

  3. defo

    Unintended consequence of Project Fear.
    It wouldn’t have taken a Nostradamus to see this coming

  4. jimnarlene

    They’re not that weird, I want join a Union, with France, Belgium, Germany, Ireland, Portugal, Italy…….. You get the idea. ?

  5. bobajock

    Its the ‘None’ thats interesting here. Little England – no empire.

    So 48% don’t like or want to work with Scotland, I’d have said more like 95% given their MSM.

    Far more dislike N.I. and its interesting that they voted Tory who are showing how much they dislike it.

    Poor Wales, its at that level cos its England already.

  6. mogabee

    Joining up with Wales! Is that due to so many living, retiring and having holiday homes there?

    Looking forward to next polling result, you tease. 😀

  7. HandandShrimp

    I would tend to agree that Project Fear backfired and as much as it was intended to cajole Scottish voters into voting No it has left English voters thinking why the hell are we subsidising them.

  8. Macart

    Not entirely shocked tbf. They’ve been religiously fed a steady diet of ‘Tartan terror’, Scottish Raj’, ‘Most dangerous woman’, ‘Subsidy junkie’ guff for years.

    Seems the meeja’s runaway narrative has done its job too well. Remember Cameron’s plea to have people in England reach out to family and friends in Scotland? May’s version of that should be a hoot.

  9. Scottish Steve

    Let’s be honest here. Wales is already England. They use the English church and the English legal system so they might as well be.

  10. Nana

    Wings poll was mentioned on James o’Brien show this morning. Hubby heard it whilst driving home.

  11. Cactus

    Aye, their 27% ‘None’ voters have trumped The Netherlands, France and Belgium.

    That’s rather quite telling.

    If they love their own country SO much… why are they SO fascinatingly obsessed with flying the flag of the UK all the time. The flag of the people of England is the St Georges Cross.

    Weird indeed.

  12. galamcennalath

    A country with very modest natural resources gets the opportunity to join in union with a resources rich neighbour. Not only that, a neighbour which is a net exporter, has a vast continental shelf with fisheries, and has massive renewables potential to be the powerhouse of Europe.

    AND …. only 52% would grab the chance!

    Of course, what this really shows is that the electorate of England have no comprehension of the value of Scotland to the UK. They have been fed, and swallowed, years of anti Scottish too wee and too poor propaganda.

  13. Andy-B

    Sounds like the marriage made in hell has ran its course, lets get a divorce asap.

  14. Penderyn

    I would have asked about Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen), one of the German federal states, the capital of which is Hannover. By pure coincidence, this is where Betty Battenburg and her family are from. Despite rejecting Lower Saxony’s application after WW1 to become part of the UK, I’m sure there would be willingness to form an allegiance. That way, England could also get it’s car industry back again (VW are based in Wolfsburg).

  15. mike cassidy

    Back in 1956, France’s suggestion of a union was rejected by Anthony Eden.

    But he was very keen on France’s suggestion of joining the Commonwealth!

    Whatever happened to that one?!

  16. Luigi

    With the latest royal wedding, BREXIT shenanigans and world cup fever about to hit us, 2018 is building up to be a real EngNat Fest. St Crispin’s Day almost upon us:

    God for Harry, England and Saint George!”

    I wonder how many union flags will be flown at the England games (I actually hope they do well – the reporters won’t be able to contain their English nationalism – you can take that to the bank). 🙂

  17. Helpmaboab


    That’s the word we’re looking for. More of the people of England, for whatever reason, are raising the drawbridges around their scepter’d peninsula and withdrawing to the keep.

    Some are still determined to drag Scotland, NI and Wales into seclusion with them, perhaps due to a residual imperial sentiment. Others clearly aren’t.

    I can’t see those isolationist instincts weakening in the near future.

  18. Legerwood

    mike cassidy says:
    18 May, 2018 at 2:44 pm
    “”Back in 1956, France’s suggestion of a union was rejected by Anthony Eden.

    But he was very keen on France’s suggestion of joining the Commonwealth!

    “”Whatever happened to that one?!””

    Commonwealth got Rwanda instead…and Mozambique.

  19. Helpmaboab

    Still, has anyone considered a union between an independent Scotland and Gibraltar within the EU? It would be braw to have a sunny Mediterranean dependency for the Summer holidays…

  20. Proud Cybernat

    May concedes on tie to customs union until Irish border resolved

  21. Robert Peffers

    @Scottish Steve says: 18 May, 2018 at 2:08 pm:

    “Let’s be honest here. Wales is already England. They use the English church and the English legal system so they might as well be.”

    When is it going to get through to Wingers that there is a difference between the terms, Country, Kingdom and Union?

    Wales, Ireland, England and Scotland are individual countries. Even Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland are a single individual country.

    There were only two individual Kingdoms in the British Isles in 1706/7 but there were still seven individual countries.

    The countries were Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey, and Man and they still are.

    However in 1706/7 there was only two kingdoms still in existence and the reason for that differed between countries and kingdoms was because of the changes in their Rule of Law.

    Originally all of Britain’s countries had as their rule of Law, “The Divine Right of Kings”. Under this Rule of Law it was believed that God chose the monarchy of a country by that monarch being born in a royal person’s womb and that these monarchs word was law as they represented God on Earth. a.k.a. Sovereignty, and the highest sovereign person on Earth was the Pope in Rome. (No sectarianism back then).

    However, Scotland, in 2013, bucked the trend and submitted to the Holy Roman Se, “The Declaration of Arbroath”. Than not only declared that Scotland was not part of the Kingdom of England, (as claimed by the King of England), but that monarchs in Scotland were NOT Sovereign.

    So there was two ways of interpreting that declaration. One being that as sovereigns were chosen by God then the people of Scotland were the chosen ones. The other, more realistic, was that the monarchs were not sovereign but instead they were protectors of the people’s sovereignty and that is what became The Rule of Law of Scotland.

    However, the rest of Britain, and the rest of Christendom, still worked under the Divine right of Kings, (sovereignty of monarchs). Under which Rule of Law a monarch who defeated another monarch in war, (supposedly by the will of God), took over the defeated monarch’s kingdom and tagged it onto their original kingdom. As did a male monarch marrying a female monarch take over her kingdom.

    The Kingdom of England thus took over Wales by defeating the last native Prince of Wales and, By the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284, made the country of Wales part of the Kingdom of England but then, in 1688, the Rule of Law of England was only slightly altered by the English, “Glorious Revolution, of 1688.

    Under this Rule of law the Monarch of the Kingdom of England had to legally delegate the Parliament of the Kingdom of England to exercise the #Royal Prerogative, (Sovereignty), but The King of England had, (as Lord of Ireland), forced the Parliament of the Kingdom of Ireland to pass the Crown of Ireland Act of 1542 that placed the crown of Ireland upon the King of England’s head and thus made Ireland part of the Kingdom of England.

    Thus in 1603 there remained only two kingdoms in Britain as The King of England had already became the monarch of the people of the Channel Islands and Isle of Man but these Crown dependencies were not under the Kingdom of England’s parliament. So there was no Union of the Crowns in 1603 and Scotland remained an independent kingdom with her own parliament.

    So, in 1706/7 there were only two kingdoms left in Britain but that did not change the countries – only the kingdoms.

    There are only two partner kingdoms in the United Kingdom but eight individual countries. It is the mistaken belief that the United Kingdom is a country composed of countries that has allowed Westminster to become the de facto parliament of the country of England with their three dominion countries of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    So unless you can show documentary evidence that England, the country, has a parliament of its own then the so called United Kingdom only has two Kingdoms as partners and is treating everyone else as their dominions.

  22. Dr Jim

    Perhaps a poll on all the Independent countries who left the UK should be asked if they’d just Luurve to come back

    Really wouldn’t need to ask would we

    No crowds banging on Englands door wanting to join up to their new world order, so there’ll be enough armbands to go around eh, Scots’ll have to prove they’re British soon so they don’t risk deportation from the land of the free like the Windrush folk

  23. Liz g

    Helpmaboab @ 3.10
    I would have said Naw,we have had enough bloody Unions.
    I don’t want Scotland to become to another People’s, what Westminster is to us.
    We could always out vote Gibraltar,and that’s Not democracy.

    While I would want to join the EU,I also think that it shouldn’t be so damaging to leave that’s not right either.

    What I would like to see is….
    The written constitution of Scotland have within it,an express instruction that Holyrood has the power to make political Unions on our behalf…..
    But and its a Big but…

    No Union can last longer than 25 year’s.
    After 25 year’s,to stay, or to leave, must be put back before the people to vote on in a referendum,or that Union ends by default.

    The EU would know this is part of our Constitutional arrangements before we sign up.(we’re no exactly beggars at the gate here)
    As would any other potential partners.
    Never again could the Parliament of Scotland have the power to sign us up to a Treaty for centuries.
    The Constitution itself should forbid it.

    Also ….
    No matter what Union Holyrood signed us up to,it should also be expressly forbidden from,agreeing to Scotland’s “ultimate” legislators sitting in any parliament outside the Country/Kingdom and that should take care of any “reunification” attempts as well as any United States of Europe moves going forward.

    We need a Constitution that demonstrates that we have learned a bit aboot Unions these last few hundred year’s and because they can get out of our control (not that the development of UK one was ever really in our control) we tried to protect Scotland from any idiotic politicians putting our Sovereignty on the line ever again.

    But more than that…any Union that partner’s want to keep us on board with,is going to have to be mindful that each generation of the people of Scotland need to see the benefits of it.
    Ignoring us won’t be an option.
    Otherwise they won’t stay…
    Also, the Media and Holyrood could not play politics and the blame game ,with these Unions.
    They would need to show they work or they would lose them,but either way WE decide!

  24. handclapping

    And this was before they named the boat Agincourt! So pissed off the French that they initiated the Auld Alliance and had England fighting on two fronts til they were last kicked out of Europe

    Maybe Macron will scrap the Entente Cordial and renew the AA; even better if he does it before the referendum

  25. Gary45%

    Spain in meltdown from pressure from the Britnat arseholes on “H Hewit and somebody’s? big day tomorrow. On the plus side, I showed a photo of the Tories” doing the Ronaldo stance,”the comment from the Spaniards of “May looking like a cow having a pish” cheered me up no end.

  26. Golfnut

    @Liz g
    Good points, couple of others we might consider. Politicians and media must be held to account, we have had enough lies and misrepresention, people have the right to make an informed decision, we have had enough of britnat style politics.

  27. galamcennalath



    Also, in that particular war, we were on the French side!é

    What next? Ship named Flodden?

  28. Legerwood


    Another school shooting in USA. Santa Fe, Texas. Up to 10 dead.

  29. Clootie

    …have you seen how they behalf abroad?

    They want to live in Spain, France, etc BUT it must feel like Blighty – English Breakfast, warm flat beer, a nice pot of tea, lots of English neighbours to socialise with and locals who speak English when they need something…much like Elgin.

  30. Dorothy Devine

    Clootie , no the Elgin I remember from my childhood!

  31. Colin Alexander

    Robert Peffers meant Declaration of Arbroath 1320, not 2013 (it’s a typo).

    Do you think the Scot Govt legal team will argue that the sovereign people of Scotland voted Remain and voted for the current Scottish Parliament, giving them the sovereign democratic mandate for the Continuity Bill, so the sovereign people of Scotland cannot be overruled by the UK Parliament, as the UK Parliament is Crown, Lords and Commons, so when UK’s claimed sovereignties clash with Scotland’s genuine sovereign people, Scotland’s sovereign people cannot be overruled in Scotland by UK parliament?

    Best wait and see eh?

  32. Gary45%

    Do you mean Ewljin in Moe-ray near Fok-Haybers?
    Yep even after they vote to leave the “European Onion” . The arseholes still demand/expect “Wool Bwitanya” in yewwop.
    On the plus side, we met a family from Barca today and the lady kindly gave the missus her yellow ribbon after we spoke to them about Scottish / Catalan indy.
    Nice One.

  33. gus1940

    Re HMS Agincourt the English arrogantly continue to rub French noses in the dirt with Waterloo Station.

    I know that Paris has Gare d’Austerlitz but 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

  34. Thepnr

    I struggle to get my head around the fact that in 2013 and just a month before the referendum “just 18% of Scots said they’d vote for a union with England if Scotland was currently independent”

    So what’s stopping them being Independent now? That truly is another surprising result. I can only guess that most people in fact a great majority of them are led by the nose. They can’t actually think for themselves and need some BBC talking head or a Leasky to do their thinking for them.

    That if anywhere near true is pretty sad that people are actually susceptible to the extent that they are being made to think exactly as their rulers want them.

    A lot of us on Wings are the opposite, we decide to find out for ourselves in the main and want the fuller picture. I suspect that being dragged into war or out of the EU is all part of the same problem.

    The ordinary people are never given the “facts” as that is a definite No No as they might stop allowing themselves to be led by the nose.

    That’s the very best that Wings and other blogs and us that read them can ever do, give people the truth and that is most certainly not the truth that they will get on their beloved BBC.

    Scotland is bad, England I don’t think is far behind and neither too is the rest of the OECD countries. they all use propaganda to some extent, least of all probably the Scandinavian countries.

    I aspire to be more like them. I’ll be voting Yes when the next opportunity arises so as to give Scotland that chance.

  35. Liz g

    Golfnut @ 4.51
    Thank you
    While I don’t think that our Constitution could or should be used to regulate the Media.
    It most certainly can demand that any elected official is obliged to tell the truth in Parliament.
    We already have the expectation that after taking an oath to a judge,there are consequences if caught lying to the Court.
    I can’t see any reason not to have the same for our Parliament.
    If politicians aren’t prepared to take the consequences for lying,then they can either tell the truth or don’t stand for election.
    This could also have an effect on the Media as any MSP asked in Parliament must,say whither a story is or isn’t true.
    Having the the Media called out as liars in the Parliament should make a bit of difference?

  36. Robert Louis

    This polling data from folk in England is the best mopney spent ever. What it shows is that when we hold the next indy referendum, their will be very little wailing coming from down south. Seems folk down there are already pretty comfortable with Scotland going. Judging by the mood down there, they would probably understand, and cheer us on.

    This is very good news. We should not underestimate just what this means. The UK is dead in all but name. Call the referendum, and let’s put little Englandshire out of her misery.

    Looking forward to more of this data. In any other union of countries this would be headline news on national TV, but of course, it will be ignored, as it doesn’t fit the London narrative.

  37. Abulhaq

    Watching the UK parliament in action quickly the realisation occurs that the entire institution is essentially English. The SNP mps in 2015 ought to have stayed at home. We might be much closer to the target by now had they done so.
    Britishness is a nasty virus in Scotland’s body politic.

  38. Mikey2407

    They’ve had nearly all the oil? I suspect that there’s quite a bit more of it but that it can’t be investigated as there are some nuclear submarines nearby. Anyhoo, it’s not about the oil is it? The oil is just the icing on the cake.

  39. Bobp

    I think those 27% have got to be kippers.

  40. Golfnut

    @Liz G

    The media self regulation is as we all know a nonsense. It’s used and abused daily, without consequence. Yes the courts can be used for slander etc, but you need to be wealthy to have any real chance of success.
    I go back to my point, that it is a constitutional right for the electorate to make decisions on fact, not fake news, propaganda or political preferences of the media. Therefore the media’s role, particularly during elections and referenda need to be defined in the constitution with heavy fines for individuals and owners, even prison for persistent offenders.

    The media will have to earn the people of Scotland’s trust, until then, we need a big stick.

  41. Another Union Dividend

    Battle of Dunbar prisoners.

    STV’s sanitised version of the fate of Scottish prisoners captured after the battle of Dunbar in 1296 forgot mention how they were effectively murdered.

    Prisoners and guards stripped the cathedral interior to fuel their fires. Deaths from starvation and dysentery continued, at times reportedly as high as 100 per day. Altogether, the death toll among the Dunbar captives has been estimated at 1600.


  42. Nana


    Disgusting filling the HoL with failures, frauds and terrorists.

    No wonder Britain is a laughing stock because of people like Theresa May

    Serious damage has been done thanks to Brexit
    Brexit has made Britain an international joke

  43. Liz g

    Golfnut @ 6.29
    Certainly Holyrood should lay down election parameters, or whatever ever our equilibrium of the electoral commission is, should define the role of the press.
    But I don’t see that as the role of the Constitution it’s self!
    And I certainly don’t think (although I know that is not what you are suggesting) that the media deserves the protection of our Constitution.
    Keep the Parliament honest and let the press hing as it grows, or compete wi the internet most likely!

  44. Az

    Liz g – ***4.20pm***

    It’s amazing Liz. My favourite comment btl on Wings probably this year, and you made it at 4.20! 😉 ;)/’

  45. Sinky

    BBC Scotland struggling to find Scottish enthusiam for a wedding in Windsor and failed to report that there is only one official street party in the whole of Scotland

  46. Victor Moncrieff

    This is the first time I have commented.
    I hope that I do not make any error. Do I give myself a code name?
    My comment is that I feel that I should encourage some of the excellent contributors to write to their local newspaper as well as the National. I have given up on the Sunday Herald.
    I do not think we should swear or insult. There is no real need.

  47. starlaw

    Sinky 6.48

    Did I hear right , first woman they tried to interview in Leith seemed to tell interviewer to ‘ bugger off ‘ as she hurried on her way, next two wer’nt much better.

  48. Robert Peffers

    @Liz g says: 18 May, 2018 at 4:20 pm:

    ” … Never again could the Parliament of Scotland have the power to sign us up to a Treaty for centuries.”

    Whoa! There Liz g. First of all The Treaty of Union is not what the, (so called). United Kingdom Parliament has become and how it has operated. I already posted about that and quoted the history about it and it goes way back at least as far as Henry VII and the marriage of James IV and Margaret Tudor.

    There is a historic document written in Old English by King Henry VII that plainly shows how the English have always viewed the Union:

    I’ve been searching for hours and cannot find the written statement by Henry VII but it he was being criticised by English courtiers about the obvious chance that the marriage between James IV and the child Margaret Tudor could result in a Scottish royal becoming king of England. Henry said that it would never happen as it would be like a tiny Scottish trickle meeting a roaring English torrent and would result in Scotland being overwhelmed. As indeed has happened.

    This is the attitude of the English but it is not the legal situation. The Actual legal standing of international treaties is laid out in the Geneva Convention:-

    Anyway, even under both Scots and English law, (there is no such thing as United Kingdom Law and certainly not in this context), The Treaty o Union is a legally binding contract. In Scots law that can even be held as legally binding if only verbal and unwritten – more or less a contract between, in this case two equally sovereign states.

    In such contracts/agreements each Article of Union is taken on its own merits. There is absolutely nothing in that document that says the Westminster Parliament is anything other than a totally new Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and it doesn’t even mention Ireland or Wales as such.

    The preface does mention, English Kingdom Dominions but that could mean Wales & Ireland but also what were then the colonies so may not really be, “The New World”, at all. It is significant that neither Wales or Ireland are mentioned because it would seem that their omission from the preface indicates that either they were taken for granted as being just parts of the Kingdom of England or were regarded as English Dominions.

    The other significant thing is that the addition of Northern Ireland only is added long after the actual treaty was agreed and only after it was apparent that Ireland was partitioned.

    and, in any case the actual name on what Westminster refers to as, “The Anglo-Irish Treaty”, is a total fudge. First of all because Anglo-is England not either the United Kingdom nor nor Scotland or Wales. Secondly because it was between the United Kingdom and the Irish Free State which legally was, (depending on opinion), either a Dominion of the United Kingdom, (a two partner Kingdom), or, (if you were from Southern Ireland), a Republic declaring itself as such. In the first instance international Treaties are between two independent states and in the second all Ireland had been part of the Kingdom of Ireland since 1542 and the Crown of Ireland act of the defunct Kingdom of England Parliament that went into permanent recess in 1707. You cannot have an international treaty with yourself even if you did die 258 years earlier by the Crown of Ireland Act 1542.

    Yet today there is still no Parliament of the country of England and there are only two kingdoms in the United Kingdom.

    No honest international court in the World, (and the one that would be concerned in this case would be The European Court of Civil Rights and ruling according to the Geneva Convention.

  49. Golfnut

    @Liz G.

    I don’t pretend to know the way forward for this particular issue, and your right Parliament should set the parameters for any given electoral process. I also agree that there should be safeguards regarding unions and limitations on their shelf life, preventing ever again Scotland finding our self in the kind of political union we are now in. Those are constitutional restrictions on our on our elected representatives, is our media more trustworthy than our political representatives. I would argue that they are not. For many years after the dissolution of this most corrupt union, many current politicians and journalists will still be active, do you trust them to act in Scotland’s best interest.

  50. louis.b.argyll

    Why should Scotland’s will be forever diluted through Westminster’s paranoid delusions?

    The Union had clearly failed before the first World War, funny that, not.

  51. Colin Alexander

    Robert Peffers

    The European Court of Civil Rights??? Geneva Convention?

    I don’t think so, sir.

  52. jfngw

    What I want to know is with all the technology available why are we not getting a CGI Diana at the wedding. After all it’s what the royalist public would want. This also goes for the brides father, do you really need the real one. Plus the guest list can be improved immensely, JFK, Gandhi, history is your oyster.

  53. Ken

    There have been a number of occasions on TV when an English person has described Brexit as England recovering it’s independence. This poll shows how popular that idea is.

    Personally, I have no wish to hinder that process and wish them well.

    However, a woman on Matthew Wright this morning seemed concerned about England being left alone in the world.

    Shame, but we’re about done holding their bloody hand, acting as conscience and carer.

    It will do them a power of good to get out there and face the world on purely English terms.

    It will be a steep, post-imperial learning curve, but it’s difficult to sympathise with them given the maltreatment of their Celtic neighbours.

  54. Sinky

    This is a salutary warning for those who naively think that Wikipedia and Google can provide an alternative narrative to the London establishment MSM / BBC onslaught on the SNP/Indy or any other left of centre threat to their cosy metropolitan privileged lifestyle.

    When searching Google on any topic you get loads of anti Indy/ SNP links but very few if any pro SNP / indy sites to visit.

  55. MJack

    Wonder which one Scots would join first!

  56. Gfaetheblock

    The position currently is that a majority of Scots want to be in a union with England and a majority of English want to be in a union with Scotland.

  57. Auld Rock

    Hi Rev, don’t like to disagree with you but, and Westminster has known this for years, Scotland still has the potential to produce at least two to three times as much oil and gas as recovered from the Nth. Sea. I’m referring to oil/gas from the Atlantic Margin extending from West of Shetland to where the Scottish Economic Zone (EZ) meets the the RoI (EZ).

  58. yesindyref2

    Totally OT
    I’ve been finding Firefox hanging for a bit, loads of activity on router, Herald jumping around and even having ccleaned as I do all the time, Wings on its own hanging a bit on startup, for maybe the first minute, so did a bit of googling and I figure it was having both plugins – ABP and Ublock Origin. So got rid of ABP and on laptop and desktop now seems to be a lot faster and more steady. Supposedly ABP is a bit, well, whitelisting advertisers, not sure if that happens if yo remove them from the configs though.

    Still early days, but if you have ABP replace it with Ublock Origin is my suggestion, and make sure you uninstall ABP not just remove it from toolbar. In Firefox it might be under extensions, was on mine.

    If you like this hot tip please click me a candy bar, errr, oh sorry, wrong place.

  59. yesindyref2

    Oh and by the way, if you use Winaso and use Malwarebytes to check out for infections, it don’t like Winaso – it flahs it as a PUP – all 179 entries for it or something, and if you make the misatake of letting it monitor realtime it’s a real pain running Winaso. Reason is simple, different companies.

    But I’ve been using Winaso and think it’s great, helped me get rid of a spyware I got via the Herald website 3 or so years ago (yes, I made the mistake of clicking a “sponsored link” with Disney secrets, ugggh). I should have known better, but for some odd reason trusted the Herald. Ooops.

  60. yesindyref2

    Anyways, an on-topic post.

    Been thinking about this “Independence” thing, and why on earth considering Scotland is a country, wouldn’t people want Scotland to be an actual full-blooded country?

    It’s all as simple as that, really, and perhaps in all seriousness, it’s an argument that might work with the really stubborn.

  61. Dave McEwan Hill

    Gfaetheblock at 9.05

    Says who?

  62. Robert Peffers

    @Colin Alexander says: 18 May, 2018 at 5:31 pm@:

    “Do you think the Scot Govt legal team will argue that the sovereign people of Scotland voted Remain … “

    I believe the SG/SNP legal teams, (and remember there are a good number of MPs and MSPs and so on who are well trained lawyers and that includes the First Minister herself, are not only trained lawyers but good politicians and that is without their bought and paid for government legal teams are well enough informed and clever as to be able to argue the case and that is without the need for either mandates or referendums.

    If there is anything I’m sure of it is that Nicola and her SG and party know exactly what they are doing. THey would not be even attempting to make a case unless they already had a good case to make.

    I’m no lawyer but have invested many years in studying the history from long before the so called Union of the Crowns to know that the present set-up, and the one before it, have always been against the laws of Scotland and many of their assumptions are also wrong under English law and there is no such thing as United Kingdom law and no such thing as a United Kingdom constitution.

    In fact Westminster has, since it declared itself in permanent recess, been acting as the continued Parliament of the Kingdom of England but there has not bee a single member of the parliament of The United Kingdom elected to be a member of the Parliament of England. No such parliament has been in existence since 30 April 1707.

    They acted from the very start as if they were the continued parliament that had just sat and legally wound itself up. Then the began Devolution and that is even more proof they believe themselves to ne the continued parliament of England but what makes it even more apparent is they only devolve Westminster’s powers to three of the four countries and Westminster governing England directly.

    The setup is, for all intents and purposes, the Country of England Parliament running three dominion countries one of which is their only legal partner kingdom in the So Called United Kingdom that united two only Kingdoms.

    Not to mention the evidence from the Westminster instigate paper during the first Scottish independence referendum that claimed The Treaty Of Union had “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom. The Treaty of Union did no such thing. It legally united only two kingdoms and one of those kingdoms already had annexed – with no treaties of union – Wales in 1284 and all Ireland in 1542.

    They claim there was an Anglo-Irish Treaty of Union but first of all Anglo means England and not Scotland but anyway treaties are made between countries or states and Ireland, at the date of the Treaty, was not an independent state. There wasn’t even an Irish Free State at that time and when that came about it still wasn’t, (it was within a year), it was, “The Irish Free State”, which was factually a United Kingdom Dominion and thus not independent until 1921 as the Republic of Ireland.

    Now consider this – English lawyers are not allowed to work in the Scottish legal system unless they also qualify in Scottish law and of course Scots have to also train in English law.

    If Theresa does take action it cannot be in an English court because the Act they are complaining about was passed by the SG under Scottish law and that means they would have to engage Scottish Lawyers to act for the UK parliament.

    If the SG were to bring a case it would be in a Scottish Court because the Holyrood parliament passed the act under Scots law.

    Westminster have, more than once, applied laws set by the Magna Carta and that was long before there was a United Kingdom and now they are quoting laws from when English Kings made the laws of England.

    Furthermore there is more than one way for a government to claim they are mandated to carry out a particular action. As Theresa proved over BRUKEXIT.

    There is the oft used one that a tiny, apparently unimportant, manifesto promise is used when the sitting government says, but we had it in our manifesto and we won the election.

    As to who is sovereign – sovereignty ultimately always belongs to the people for sovereignty has always been used by whoever can enforce it. When the people cannot take it anymore there is revolution and revolution is defined as the masses turning on the person/s holding sovereignty.

    In any case it cannot be disputed that Scots law is based upon the principle that the crown/government is NOT sovereign but is the protector of the people’s sovereignty. In England, and that is the Kingdom of England, sovereignty is legally the Royal prerogative but t was established in 1688 in the English Glorious Revolution that the Monarchy of England are legally sovereign but must legally delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of England.

    Noe here’s the legal rub, Colin – no one has ever been elected as a member of an English Parliament since 30 April 1707 when the last parliament of the Kingdom of England say and put itself into permeant recess.

    On the next day what sat at the, (now fire destroyed), Westminster Palace was the spanking new Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom. Now then can Westminster claim to hold sovereignty when the legally sovereign monarch of England isn’t sovereign over England’s only partner kingdom? Which, of course means that the Queen of Scots must legally defend the sovereign rights of the legally sovereign people of Scotland?

    Must we demand the Solomon Solution and have Her Majesty cut in Half? Will the cut have to be along the lines of population proportions? Will the cut by horizontal or vertical?

    Will it be under Scottish, English or the non-existent British/United Kingdom Law?

  63. Gfaetheblock

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Scots – indyref1 and polling since

    English – the poll above


  64. Hamish100

    Gfaetheblock says:
    18 May, 2018 at 9:05 pm
    The position currently is that a majority of Scots want to be in a union with England and a majority of English want to be in a union with Scotland

    Wrong. Don’t equate the 2014 referendum as Scots voting for remain with England as it can also be read therefore that they wished to remain with the EU. As for voting No 1/2 million at least were not Scots.

  65. Sinky

    Loving new Frankie Boyle show. Great demolition of Corbyn’s “radical” Labour Party

  66. Liz g

    AZ @ 6.47
    Why, thank you it’s very kind of you to take the time to say.


    Robert Peffers @ 7.24
    Exactly Robert…. “What the United Kingdom has become” !
    for the purposes of this conversation is the whole point.
    It’s the much trumpeted “unwritten Constitution” that has facilitated this.
    I don’t think it was originally planned this way!
    Both kinds Sovereignty are of course incompatible.
    I believe the main concern when the Treaty was written was to never allow daylight (so to speak ) to shine on the Scottish Sovereignty,but rather to “go with” the English version….
    While paying lip service to the Scottish one…
    A written constitution would either prevent this,or (at the time) cause one version or the other to be picked.
    Considering the jealously guarded positions of the churches,that as they say “was never gonna happen” ,soo a written constitution needed (and needs ) to be avoided at all costs.
    Don’t let daylight in on the Magic that is Scottish Sovereignty!!
    But when we go,we need to be learning from what has happened.
    So that we can get the document we need to protect Scotland going forward.
    I think in this instance from her own politicians.
    Don’t ye think??

    Hope you are well?
    Golfnut @ 7.32
    Well,I’m such an auld cynic I don’t even trust my mirror!!
    Seriously though..
    I think that I struggle to think of a way to “fix” the Media because it’s not really just Scottish,but just as it should be its global.
    And the rot is global too.
    The one thing that occurs to me is….
    Do nothing to regulate the Media itself…
    But insist that 60% of it must be domestically owned,and only 40% owned off shore.
    But I really don’t know enough about it to say if that’s a reasonable position to hold??

  67. Gfaetheblock


    I thought all of us living in scotland were Scots, or are you of the the blood and soil way of thinking?

    Also, the SNP confirmed that we would remain in the EU, so not convinced that is the case.

  68. Robert Peffers

    @Colin Alexander says: 18 May, 2018 at 8:25 pm

    “The European Court of Civil Rights??? Geneva Convention?
    I don’t think so, sir.”

    As usual, Colin, what you think is not debate. It is not even a statement of your thoughts. You offer no logical reasoning nor cite any proofs. So I’m not going to argue with you.

    But have a wee read at this:-

    International law is a vast and complex subject and I’ve no idea what it is you do not understand. Go do some research.

  69. Rock

    The British Establishment can easily manipulate public opinion and vote of both English and Scottish “Plebs” the way they want.

    In 2014, they didn’t think it necessary to try too hard but they will be more alert when the next independence referendum is held – in 622 years’ time.

    It got caught out in the Brexit vote and has ever since been doing its best to reverse it, but finding it difficult because it is evenly divided between Brexiters and Remainers.

    Saint Theresa of England and Wales is a closet Brexiter, in my humble opinion.

  70. Robert Peffers

    @Gfaetheblock says: 18 May, 2018 at 9:05 pm:

    “The position currently is that a majority of Scots want to be in a union with England and a majority of English want to be in a union with Scotland.”

    You forgot to include both your evidence and your logical arguments, Gfaetheblock.

  71. Rock

    Robert Peffers says:
    18 May, 2018 at 9:54 pm

    “If there is anything I’m sure of it is that Nicola and her SG and party know exactly what they are doing.”

    Did Nicola and the SNP know “exactly what they are doing” when they stood “shoulder to shoulder” with Saint Theresa and the “ghastly” Boris Johnson as they declared war on Russia after a false flag operation?

  72. Colin Alexander

    Robert Peffers

    I’m happy to be educated by you, sir. Please teach me about the European Court of Civil Rights; I haven’t heard of it.

    I have heard of the European Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Justice but, not the one you speak of.

    Also, I was of the understanding that the Geneva Convention was legal standards of conduct in times of war.

    Again, happy to be educated, sir.

  73. stewartb

    Auld Rock@ 9:06 pm

    You write: ” I’m referring to oil/gas from the Atlantic Margin extending from West of Shetland to where the Scottish Economic Zone (EZ) meets the the RoI (EZ).”

    Its a big bone of contention for me, this geographic/oil & gas province terminology. The ‘North Sea’ is the mature oil & gas province and an area of resource that we, the public, have all come to ‘know’ and now kind of take for granted – (actually I don’t think the UK public has ever come close to understand what a scientific, technological, human and industrial achievement the ‘North Sea’ has been). It has been worked for a long time, lots already exploited, so nothing significant remaining – or so it is, I suspect, often regarded.

    There is a completely different – geographically and geologically – oil province on the East Atlantic Margin. Although not yet fully assessed, there have been some very substantial commercial discoveries made in this relatively immature (not ‘North Sea’) province. With innovative technologies and business processes that are reducing costs, there are the commercial incentives to continue to assess and exploit.

    Framing Scotland’s oil & gas assets as (only) “the North Sea’ is not appropriate – and our oil & gas assets are (really just) a economic bonus, remember! (By contrast, for England, the strategic and financial value of holding on to Scotland and to the oil & gas resources from what upon independence will be Scotland’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) is huge in terms both of avoiding the threat to its energy security, its balance of payments etc. Upon independence, England’s dependency on imports of oil & gas will come close to 100%, and even fracking to the max will make limited inroads to this and at a local environmental cost that will be politically very problematic.)

    Anyone else spot the recent statement from the independent, authoritative Fraser of Allander Institute published on 7th May 2018? I didn’t see it referenced by BBC Scotland’s economic and business editor. In case you missed it, this independent, authoritative expert Institute stated: “These estimates of GNI (Gross National Income) CONFIRM that Scotland is a wealthy and prosperous country.” (My emphasis)

    (Source: )

  74. Phronesis

    It will be a healing, cathartic process when Scotland becomes independent.
    Scotland and England are already pursuing very different policy goals. This is not happening in Scotland’s NHS for example;

    ‘Failure to deliver key aspects of the end-to-end service, delivered by Capita and other organisations, impacted primary care services and, potentially, put patients at risk of serious harm…Users continue to experience poor delivery with seven severe service failures in February 2018. A number of organisations have contributed to underperformance as Capita relies on other organisations to provide some services…

    Two and a half years into the contract basic principles are still not agreed, which limits NHS England’s ability to hold Capita to account. NHS England and Capita have still not agreed how to calculate 11 performance measures, and how these data should be used to calculate payments owed to Capita for delivering the services.
    The NAO recommends that NHS England should determine whether all current services within the contract are best delivered through that contract or be should taken in-house by NHS England.

    Scotland is forging ahead with new welfare legislation that has a very strong focus on human dignity and rights. Child poverty rates are a particular concern because it’s widely acknowledged that child poverty impacts negatively on many aspects of health and well -being into adulthood.

    ‘Our contention is that efforts to improve child health outcomes should focus on reducing modifiable socioeconomic inequalities, as well as early identification and appropriate intervention for children that have had adverse childhood experiences’

    And we only have to look at the US to see why universal health cover is so important

    ‘The lack of universal health coverage and less safety net support for low-income populations could have something to do with it…“The most efficient way to improve population health is to focus on those at the bottom,” she said. “But we don’t do as much for them as other countries’

    Fracking – which would not be in anyone’s interests in Scotland;

    ‘Our results indicate that at least 685 papers have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals that are relevant to assessing the impacts of UNGD. 84% of public health studies contain findings that indicate public health hazards, elevated risks, or adverse health outcomes; 69% of water quality studies contain findings that indicate potential, positive association, or actual incidence of water contamination; and 87% of air quality studies contain findings that indicate elevated air pollutant emissions and/or atmospheric concentrations’

    Access to the systems of tax evasion – not for the many;

    ‘the top 0.01% richest households evade about 25% of the taxes they owe by concealing assets and investment income abroad…this estimate only takes into account the wealth held offshore that evades taxes; it excludes properly declared offshore assets. When we add the tax evasion detected in random audits, total evasion in the top 0.01% reaches 25-30%, versus 3% on average in the population’

  75. Hamish100

    GET2 F

    Gfaetheblock says:
    18 May, 2018 at 10:40 pm
    I thought all of us living in scotland were Scots, or are you of the the blood and soil way of thinking?

    No idea what your last sentence is haverin about. In Scotland there are Germans, French , Welsh, Irish, Northern Irish/ Ulster, Scots, English, Poles, Dutch, Norweigian, Amrican, Chinese, Indian etcetera.

    Some will refer to themselves as Poles, French, English/Brits, Scots// Brits or just Scots. Same way in Spain you will find some people call themselves expat English. Got the point. 1/2 million voting No did not describe themselves as Scots– their choice.

  76. Gfaetheblock


    Civic Scotland agrees that all residents are Scots, no?

  77. Gfaetheblock


    See 10.13

    I have no argument, only data. Both England and Scotland want the union, based on the data

  78. Jockanese Wind Talker

    “This is the first time I have commented.” @Victor Moncrieff says at 7:14 pm

    Welcome aboard Victor.

    Don’t make it your last comment.

    Remember we’re AUOB in our quest for Indy.

    You’re right of course anything to counter SiUs “Green Ink Gang” who regularly have “Scotland Shite ‘cos EssEnnPeeBaaad” letters published.

  79. Thepnr


    the Rev’s poll contradicts your statement that “Both England and Scotland want the union

    The poll result shown yesterday was unambiguous, the voters of England only want Union on their terms. If it doesn’t suit the average voter then 55% would tell Scotland to take a hike in order to get what they want.

    They don’t give a shit about the so called Union which is a myth other than in legal terms. End the Union, it’s ran it’s course and time for a new start.

  80. Liz g

    Victor Moncrieff @ 7.14
    Welcome aboard.
    Do not worry about making any error.
    There are no real errors….only being asked to explain and defend what ye mean!
    We cannot tell other Adults how to express themselves,and this is an adult site…
    So don’t give yourself over to the words….We are all about the message.
    If you really don’t like the way any Winger is talkin..
    Just don’t engae.
    But please keep telling us what you think!

  81. Robert Peffers

    @Gfaetheblock says: 18 May, 2018 at 10:40 pm

    “I thought all of us living in scotland were Scots, or are you of the the blood and soil way of thinking?
    Also, the SNP confirmed that we would remain in the EU, so not convinced that is the case.”

    Well, not quite and nothing to do with blood and soil either.

    All people living in Scotland are not Scots. First of all they may choose not to be Scots and that is their privilege to do so.

    Secondly they may not be ethnically or culturally Scots and that too is their privilege.

    Thirdly they may be living in Scotland but be here to work, visiting studying or whatever and we welcome these to do so.

    What they are all, excepting the visitors, holidaymakers or itinerant workers, are some of the peoples of Scotland but here’s the thing and I know more than a few such people. Give these immigrant people a few generations in Scotland and the majority of such families will be culturally Scots. We do not ghettoise immigrants in Scotland. They just slot into the population and before you know it they become one of us.

    It really isn’t a problem if they want to be culturally different. I had a family friend who was culturally Jewish who had never stepped out of Scotland in his life – except to holiday in England or Wales for a couple of weeks every year. He now usually goes to the continent of Europe.

    What I was told, many years ago by an then SNP candidate who did eventually get elected, was that anyone, of any colour, creed or country of origin who was mainly resident in Scotland and registered to vote in Scottish elections was one of the peoples of Scotland.

  82. auld highlander

    So the little Englanders want to ditch us but did they give any thought as to who will help fight their wars?

  83. Gordon B

    So, the lovebombing for indyref2 should be interesting to say the least.

    “Stay with us Scotland, we have hardly anyone else to bully and treat with contempt”

    Catchy vote winner that one.

  84. Breeks

    Sinky says:
    18 May, 2018 at 8:43 pm
    This is a salutary warning for those who naively think that Wikipedia and Google can provide an alternative narrative to the London establishment MSM / BBC onslaught on the SNP/Indy or any other left of centre threat to their cosy metropolitan privileged lifestyle…

    For Philip Cross, read Winston Smith.

  85. Nana

    Scotland is the only place in the UK getting any happier, according to analysis out today from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

    Bus offering refuge to Windsor’s homeless is seized by police ahead of Harry and Meghan’s wedding

  86. Nana

    One of Theresa’s new Lords
    DUP’s William McCrea folks… “A NI Office memo in Dec 2014 revealed that McCrea had called for the Royal Air Force to carry out “strikes against (Irish towns) Dundalk, Drogheda, Crossmaglen and Carrickmore” at the DUP’s annual conference in April 1986″

    Trump’s bonfire of the treaties sweeps towards the WTO

    Now Even Japan Is Pushing Back Against Trump’s Tariffs

    Trump failure to disclose Cohen payments last year raises red flags, experts say

  87. Dave McEwan Hill

    Gfaetheblock at 10.13 pm

    There has been no poll on independence since the referendum. Are you talking about those “polls” done with tiny samples of the population in which commercial polling organisations are paid and can produce (by a process called “weighting”)results inline with the demands of those paying them – you know, like the polls on the Euro Referendum and the last “snap” general election?

  88. Gfaetheblock

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    Yep, I mean opinion polls, like newspapers, political parties and the Rev commission. They are of equal value.

    Personally, I like the Andy saltzman discription of polls, which is they are are like a ventriloquist’s dummy, as you can make them say whatever you want and only children take them seriously.

  89. HandandShrimp

    Listening to Frank Skinner on Absolute Rock and I take it from the banter that the wedding is today…not sure why but I thought it was in June.

    Nae harm to the couple but I shan’t be watching. It is a glorious day and the grass won’t cut itself.

  90. Nana

    How embarrassing, the bbc have found one back garden in Scotland with balloons. It wouldn’t surprise me if this is a bbc set up.
    Party time for the village of Markle

  91. Tinto Chiel

    Nana: there’s a warning on the gate below the bunting, “Danger: Deep Pond”.

    It’s a darmed Sturgeon plot to drown Royalists ah tell ye!

  92. Nana


    The bbc will be snorkeling for an snpbad angle 🙂

  93. Robert Peffers

    @Gfaetheblock says: 19 May, 2018 at 12:29 am:

    “I have no argument, only data. Both England and Scotland want the union, based on the data!

    Ah! Yes! Data? Thereby hangs the tale.

    Data first of all has to be collected or should I more correctly say data must first be collated. There is the first hurdle to be understood. The definition of, “Collate”, is:-

    collate – Verb – collect and combine (texts, information, or data).

    So there is ample room in both the collecting of the data and of combining the date.

    Then the collated data must be verified and again there is ample room for manipulation of the data to suit the needs of the persons doing these tasks.

    When I was a union steward in HM Dockyards the Tory Government of the day decided to privatise the Dockyard in Scotland. The various Trade Unions got together and decided to fight the closures and to that end decided to hold a survey to collate data. The guy who was appointed to leaf the fight against the privatisation was someone you may have some knowledge about – Jack Dromey:-

    “John Eugene Joseph Dromey MP (born 29 September 1948) is a British Labour Party politician and trade unionist. He has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Birmingham Erdington since the 2010 general election and was appointed Shadow Minister for Communities and Local Government in the Ed Miliband shadow front bench.

    He became Shadow Policing Minister in 2013 but resigned from this position on 27 June 2016. On 10 October 2016, he returned to the frontbench by becoming Shadow Minister for Labour and thereafter Shadow Minister for Work and Pensions.

    He was previously the Deputy General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union and the Treasurer of the Labour Party. He is married to Harriet Harman.”

    So Jack brought in some experts in order to organise a survey to support the Trade Union views. So we stewards were chosen to carry out the survey – but first we were tutored as to where we must stand in the surrounding towns and how to select those who would be most likely to support the Trade Union views.

    Then the survey was deliberately chosen to have a great deal more persons surveyed that was required for the, “random”, sample to be used to collate the data.

    Now, of course it was just coincidence that the data collected by stewards that best reflected the union views were used and those collected by stewards that did not reflect the unions views were rejected. Now I do not mean that they chose the data from any particular collector and only used some of that collectors results. They rejected the entire collection if its total was adverse.

    Now Jack Dromey didn’t fiddle the results, neither did the trade Unions all they did was employ a company that organises surveys. But then so probably did the Tory Government.

    Opinion polls are not really representative of public views for if they were we would have no need for elections, referendums and plebiscites.

  94. Robert J. Sutherland

    Gfaetheblock @ 00:29,

    That must be the reason why Saint Theresa has been so keen to “bring it on” (to coin a phrase) and see off that damned SNP once and for all. (?)

    Now I understand, thanks. =sneer=

    (But I suppose you’ll be busy the noo kow-towing in front of the TV, pathetically waving your wee Union flag.)

  95. Runnerman

    The figure of 58 and 52% in favour of Union with Wales and Scotland is closer to your “almost 2/3rds” of voters in favour of union with Wales

  96. Gfaetheblock

    Robert, I literally have no idea what the above is about, it makes no sense but I think you may be angry.

    But no, I did not watch the royal wedding, I went mountain biking in D&G, much more fun.

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