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The invisible members

Posted on September 08, 2015 by

From a report on the BBC News website today:


But those sums don’t work, do they?

Labour won 232 seats in May’s general election. Further on in the article the number of rebel Tories is given as 37. Adding those together gives us 269 – not enough to defeat the government’s 285.

If you check the official record of the vote in Hansard, you’ll find the names of several dozen MPs of another party who voted against the government and made the crucial difference between the amendment succeeding and failing. The BBC’s article doesn’t mention the name of that party or even obliquely refer to it in any way.

Can you guess which party it was, readers?

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    1. 08 09 15 13:43

      The invisible members | Speymouth

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    288 to “The invisible members”

    1. Author_Al says:

      Suspiciously Nonexistent Party, perhaps?

    2. joseph simpson says:

      It’s heating up! Yesterday the European Referendum Bill was debated in Westminster. Today the headlines are all about the government’s defeat. Interestingly, I can’t see a single sentence about a key event from that debate. Consider the context, the Government and the Labour Party want us to stay in Europe. We only have this referendum because the Tories had to outflank UKIP at the last election (remember no one thought they would win – not even the Tories!). Despite the ‘stay in’ side having a clear majority amongst Westminster MPs, when it comes to the public (prompted by the press down south), the most recent polls have shown that England has just tipped into ‘Leave’ as leading the polls. So, it’s game on.

      Yesterday the SNP put forward a perfectly reasonable amendment to the bill. They argued that the magnitude of the change from the EU referendum merits a double lock. To reflect the family of nations and all that, we should only leave Europe if a majority of voters overall, and a majority in each of the 4 home nations, was in favour. Now you’d have thought the Government and Labour would have jumped on that. Given that the polls in N Ireland, Wales and Scotland are in favour of staying in, that would pretty much have settled the issue. Job done. Well blow me, only 80 MPs voted for this motion. It was massively defeated.

      So what can we take from this? Well, the key lesson is clear. Westminster is wedded to maintaining English dominance and balks at the smaller nations having any influence over its business. Even when it could serve their purpose in a high stakes game, Westminster would rather sideline the smaller nations.

      As an aside, I watched part of this debate on the parliament channel (sad I know) and I was struck by the disrespectful way in which the SNP MPs were treated by other MPs. The sneering was evident from Labour and Tory MPs. Anyone who thinks that Westminster is based on respectful relationships and a balance of power is living in a dream world. The penny dropped for me on why the EVEL thing has died down recently. It’s because we already have EVEL Max (English Votes for Everyone’s Laws!). So, yet again, the rest of us are just going to have to wait to see what the good folks of England decide our future will be. God help us.

    3. Ross Son Of Peter says:

      Why would we seriously expect any less from them?

      On to phase 2, let’s pretend they don’t exist

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Suspiciously Nonexistent Party, perhaps?”

      Man, I wish I’d thought of that for the headline.

    5. This invisible party is quite amazing. They also managed to call an opposition day debate on the Refugee Crisis where the BBC manage to quote even the position of the single Green MP but not mention the party that called the debate at all.

    6. Chic Thomson says:

      Just went to find the article, thinking to put up a comment about the electoral arithmetic and lo, I can’t even FIND the article on HMGs defeat on the UK politics section of the BBC news site!


    7. broonpot says:

      That’s too difficult to work out.

      You will need to give me a clue.


    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So what can we take from this?”

      Well, what YOU can take from it is that if you post a comment that long with no paragraph breaks in it again I’m going to smash your face in with a mallet.

    9. scottieDog says:

      Which is why I will never have a TV licence again

    10. george says:

      ach well, if it’s a war the BBC want then it’s a war they’ll lose.

    11. Cadogan Enright says:

      There was no mention of SNP role in any of this on radio 4 – I have ‘phoned in a complaint last night of course – presumably the BBC are not doing it deliberately – its just that they don’t see the world the way a normal person outside of their BBC bubble would see it.

    12. Daisy Walker says:

      Well… if you can’t say anything good about a person, best say nothing at all.

      SNP Baaaad

    13. mumsyhugs says:

      Danny Alexander’s calculator has been found then!!! 🙂

    14. Sinky says:

      Is what Tony Hall of BBC means by improved Coverage for the regions.

      And our trusted state broadcaster wants their journalists to provide stories from local councils and courts to cash stricken local newspapers.

      Judging from the referendum coverage the BBC is well equipped to broadcast to North Korea.

    15. Dan Huil says:

      The bbc continues how it means to go on. No wonder unionists believe paying the bbc tax is money well spent.

    16. Gavin Greig says:

      Gotta be the Lib Dems, right ? Aye, right.

    17. Nana Smith says:

      MSM doing the same as Cameron did yesterday. He informed labour of the Syrian attacks and didn’t tell the snp.

      Looks like this is their intention, blanking the snp.

    18. bookie from hell says:

      Jonathan Mitchell QC

      Using Daily Record quotes to skewer Alistair Carmichael

      ( : > )

    19. Sorry, I forgot to add a link to my earlier comment regarding the refugee debate.

    20. Macart says:

      No, wait don’t tell me…

      … it’s on the tip of my tongue.

    21. Swami Backverandah says:

      The name of that Party hasn’t yet made it in to the BBC reports because there’s still a backlog in recording the names of those members who voted against the Tories. There’s a backlog at M, apparently.

      Perhaps the BBC need to upgrade their recording software from the bloated, creaking Estab V.1 to something approaching Democ V.2015.

    22. michael diamond says:

      Seen that s**te on the ebc this morning that liebour defeated cameron. No mention of other parties. The goebbels ebc party machine make me want to spew.

    23. Lanarkist says:

      The BBC and MSM have signed a pact to make the SNP invisible, ineffectual and beyond influence.

      Seems the pact covers all media and events.

      The invisible, disappeared party, who have effectively been erased from Parliamentary critique unless it can be portrayed negatively, cannot be seen to have any influence in any sphere.

      The dark hole in the media is consuming the SNP shaped object in all coverage.

      Again Scotland are being used as guineapigs as they test their media tactics on our political class before translating them into useful strategies for use on other Political Parties, see Panorama on Corbyn last night.

      No mention either of historic court case currently playing out in Edinburgh involving the real invisible a Scottish Party.

      The squirrels have taken over the media!

    24. liz says:

      We who don’t believe a word the BBC says will be fine as we get our info elsewhere.

      How can it be counteracted for those who still believe or does it matter?

    25. ahundredthidiot says:

      We need to keep the streets of little Britain safe……so, we will (allegedly) kill our own citizens (knowingly) abroad.

      Next stop, killing them at home.

      Fuel up the drones, destination Glasgow on 19th September.

    26. Itchybiscuit says:

      Was it the chimp’s tea party?

      Was it ‘it’s my party and I’ll cry if I want to’?

      Was it ‘Party Fears Two’?

      Ok, I give up. ;o)

    27. heedtracker says:

      Another BBC black out on SNP MP’s, shock. Lie, misinform, blackout, all in a days BBC work. Even their BBC jibberjabber on Brexit purdah is a huge public information fraud. Scots referendum 28 day purdah rules meant jack shit to these guys, all of it ending with their historic The Vow fraud on the Scottish electorate. Same absurd UKOK lie machine shrieks The Vow’s delivered but it’s nearly a year now.

      If anything does come from the Vow, exact same BBC liars will call it devo-max and federal UK because they’re the greatest state broadcaster in the world.

    28. Proud Cybernat says:

      Just re-affirms what I had already suspected–I AM living in North Korea.

      BBC is a fucking disgrace.

    29. Thepnr says:

      @Nana it’s not just the SNP being blanked by the MSM and the’s the whole of Scotland.

      I expected nothing less from that lot.

    30. Mary says:

      The whole of the UK Establishment obviously intend ignoring Scotland. Watched a TV programme this morning on WWII about dockside bombing which mentioned all the docks throughout England and Wales that were bombed and not a mention of Scotland. Clydeside was flattened during that time. We are being wiped off the UK Map. We are only there for our resources. Roll on Indy2

    31. Macca73 says:

      This is becoming as petty as it gets from both the unionist parties and the media!!

    32. CameronB Brodie says:

      Memory holed by the MiniTru.

    33. Frank Lynch says:

      It’s called air brushing from history. Bit like Stalin and Hitler did; not that the BBC would indulge in the same type of Putin-esque behaviours of which that organisation’s Nick Robinson accused the SNP. Not them, surely?

    34. Macart says:


      “Looks like this is their intention, blanking the snp.”

      All grist for the mill Nana. Scots were invited… (scratch that), pleaded with to participate in the UK adventure. We were told in no uncertain terms just how valued that participation was by Mr Cameron in his ‘save the union’ address.

      The more they blank, the more they disrespect, the more they denigrate our representation and participation? The more the lie becomes apparent.

      To be fair pretty much all of the YES vote would have been pretty certain that Mr Cameron was being less than honest and I’m willing to bet all of the soft NO vote. How and ever the belligerence shown by Westminster’s establishment and their media since September last will have taken a few by surprise. I doubt many in the latter group would have expected the introduction of EVEL, the dismissal of the vow, the debacle of the Scotland bill debates, the ferocity and speed of the austerity measures and the treatment of Scotland’s representation to be quite so overt and brutal.

      I don’t really think there is any hiding from the truth of Westminster government or the political union anymore. It really isn’t better together.

    35. Ali T says:

      To be fair, the alternative would have been “SNP deny English voters the right to be shafted by their own government”.

      As we all know, purdah rules are there to be ignored if required anyway.

    36. It really is getting beyond a joke. As frustrating as the BBC are with their misinformation, twisting of facts and now total exclusion, the most aggravating fact of all is that they’re still allowed and continue to report whatever they want.

    37. Nana Smith says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      North Korea you say, well the bbc wants to expand into North Korea & Russia so the people there get unbiased reporting.

      Truth and unbiased reporting service from the bbc what a laugh.

    38. tartanarse says:

      I don’t understand.

      I saw Nigel on telly recently crying because he didn’t get on telly often enough(no hint of irony) despite the fact that he had the third biggest party.

      Even mad Nigel hasn’t noticed the SNP.

      Well done you crazy nationalists. You’ve elected 56 ghosts.

      Mind, the 3 the idiots voted for are also soulless and transparent.

    39. Anne Bruce says:

      I don’t watch it and don’t pay the TV tax; I never will again.

      The TV tax went to a few good causes and I enjoyed giving the BBC’s money away.

      Sent off a complaint anyway – waste of time, I know – as their website fails to mention the SNP MPs’ part in this. Suggested they might like to correct the omission as I’m sure the BBC would like to be seen as a trustworthy news source!!

      I’m not holding my breath tho’.

    40. Nana Smith says:

      @Thepnr of course you are right.

      This is Cameron’s ‘respect agenda’ in action.

    41. marydoll says:

      Is it just me or is the announcement by Cameron about the ‘british jihads’ timed to take the heat from the above mentioned defeat. Not to mention the Carmichael hearing.

      Please read Craig Murrays article on the jihad strike.
      We MUST be rid of these Tory murderers

    42. Thepnr says:

      If you’ve ever had a puppy you’ll know what I’m talking about.

      Said puppy drops one behind the setee. You can smell it but can’t find it. After a few days the smell has gone but the memory of it lingers on.

      This is the MSM and government in action.They drop one all over your home knowing that you will get a whiff though eventually the whiff fades and all you are left with is a faint memory of a nasty smell.

      Unfortunately for them, they have shat in my home one time too many. I have though finally got rid of the stink and cancelled the telly tax.

      Home smells sweeter than ever, if your sick of the stink its worth looking behind the telly.

      This is the real source of everything smelly in your house!

    43. Les Wilson says:

      Yes it is notable that unless it is something they can bash Scotland with er like our defeat by Germany!
      The MSM and Westminster want anything the SNP do to be hidden from sight. Follow that with Scotland as a whole.

      We are not to be seen or heard, all Scottish news ( unless bad) is to be handled in the same way. Propaganda to the extreme. A state cannot continue with this forever, as it becomes more and more obvious, they sign the death warrant of their beloved Union.

    44. Anagach says:

      Its amazing – they name individuals and run for 100s of words and fail to mention the SNP without which the vote would not have carried.

    45. Les Wilson says:

      Watching a swathe of the Carmichael hearing, at first I was concerned with our lawyer, thought his old world approach was not the best. However, I am warming to him now as he carfully covers all the escape routes.

      I think the bench is bias though, and that is by their tone of questioning him. Yet he is unruffled and quietly responds with good points, some previously made.
      I have hopes, right!

    46. Dr Jim says:

      They don’t like us either

      Watch the Skies

    47. manandboy says:

      Or as Andrew Cotter said on Saturday on BBC at the end of the England-Ireland rugby match, when the France-Scotland game was blanked: ” It seems we have no time for Scotland then.”

    48. Jack Murphy says:

      Main article:-“If you check the record of the vote in Hansard, you can find the names of several dozen MPs of another party who voted against the government and made the crucial difference between the amendment succeeding and failing.
      The BBC’s article doesn’t mention the name of that party or even obliquely refer to it in any way.”
      No problem,someone can just ‘phone the BBC,c/o Pacific Quay,and it’ll be corrected by the newsreader on tonight’s Reporting Scotland.
      Calm down everybody,slow deep breaths.
      Tune in at 6.30pm. 🙂

    49. Nana Smith says:


      Aye Macart that’s the word ‘pleaded’ with. Showed their fear of losing what is dear to them, revenue from oil, whisky etc and somewhere to dump their weapons of war.

      Let them keep it up so more and more folk see their true colours.

      Better together Not

      Oh and imagine what we don’t know already. What else have they hidden from us and who will be implicated in their deceits. Once we become independent they know the truth will come out.

      Of course that’s if the documents have not already been shredded as is the Westminster way.

    50. heedtracker says:

      The MSM and Westminster want anything the SNP do to be hidden from sight. Follow that with Scotland as a whole.

      Or they crap all over anything at all SNP Holyrood, as in yesterday tea time BBC Scotland news realy poopped all over the new railway line with classic dour doomladen BBC git full on value for money attack.

      It’s fair enough or would be until you see the hundred’s of billions poured into England’s transport infrastructure with all that worthless not Scotish oil dosh. But having on English expert dudes explaining very clearly how shite that railway really is, can only harm Scotland and that’s what they’re all about. The all new BBC Pacifc Quay office costs nearly 500 hundred million and is ofcourse a PFI fraud on all Scots, unless you own the PFI, which no one does, it’s all hidden in tax free Guernsey.

    51. mike cassidy says:

      Direct link to bbc page here.

      Don’t think you can leave ‘comments’.

    52. GallusEffie says:

      Happy to say I cancelled our licence an hour ago.
      Man, it feels good.

    53. Papadox says:

      Surprise, surprise! The MPs for Sinn Fein must be the ones that did it. Thank you very very much Gerry.

      English broadcasting Corporation, maths lesson 1.

      If L= 232 and X= 37 what is L+X = 312? Must be. Correct the English Broadcsting Corporation said it! No wonder they are so highly paid and respected throughout the world?

    54. Albaman says:

      Par for the course, when it comes to the B.B.C. Rev,
      Witness the plaintiffs Q.C. (Jonathan Mitchell ) in the Carmichael’s court proceedings , where he made the point regarding the B.B.C.s reporting of the proceeding, as being woefully inadequate. In fact he doubted that the reporter had actually been at the court!.
      Auntie B.B.C.?, aye well, I’m “anti B.B.C.!.

    55. Brian Powell says:

      A bit off topic but looking at the UK Government and the case of the liar, Carmichael, this shows some contrasts.

      It is on taking Syrian refugees and how a small town in Germany is doing there bit. This is part of an e-mail I received from a friend there who is organising some of the work:

      “Well, in (name removed) it is just the same. All day yesterday people came and brought stuff for the refugees and it has already started this morning as well. It’s so much that we don’t know where to put it all.

      Since yesterday we have about 20 voluntary helpers who sort out everything that is brought. All day yesterday (name removed) and (name removed) have been taking the stuff to the gym of our school where everything is sorted out. And more than likely they’ll be doing the same today. People even bring complete bedrooms. It’s absolutely amazing.

      We have two translators that will help the refugees with the authorities. Since yesterday the office for registration and social security has not closed but worked all night through.

      We got offers of people who are willing to put people up and others who offered flats for entire families. Teachers came to us wanting to give German lessons.

      All this helpfulness is absolutely overwhelming but it is almost too much to handle and to cope with. It has to be organised. So it looks like a very busy day again today.”

    56. Glamaig says:

      joseph simpson @ 12:39
      As an aside, I watched part of this debate on the parliament channel (sad I know) and I was struck by the disrespectful way in which the SNP MPs were treated by other MPs. The sneering was evident from Labour and Tory MPs.

      Correct. If more people could see the self-satisfied smirking and sneering, and insults, directed at 56/59 of Scotlands elected representatives on a regular basis, there would be a surge in support for independence.

      That special Tory superior sneering expression can only be learned after years of attending the most expensive public schools. Remember Alan B’stard? That’s how its done.

      Parliament Live TV is a real eye-opener and should be more widely watched.

    57. Doug Morrison says:

      You know, I don’t think it’s deliberate. It’s a mindset sort of a thing: the BBC – and the Establishment generally – haven’t really woken up to – and internalised – the fact the game’s changed.
      That may be a bigger problem than just bias on the part of the BBC etc. But still, a problem we can overcome!

    58. Thepnr says:

      Nice one, wel done you. The more the merrier 🙂

    59. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      I don’t know about Suspiciously Nonexistent Party, but I invite you to click on the following links and scroll down to ‘itinerary’. We should be worried! There are a number of other examples.

      I haven’t posted links before, so hope this works (used copy and paste). If not, perhaps someone could advise. Thanks.

      Ignorance, arrogance, or deliberate humiliation?

    60. Albaman says:

      I think I ought to have used the word petitioners, instead of plaintiffs , if so, soooory and keep that mallet out of here.

    61. manandboy says:

      There is a clear escalation of hostilities towards Scotland by Westminster via the BBC. This will have come about through meetings at Cabinet level and with the Tories’ PR Office, in which Cameron will have spoken about the ongoing ‘threat’ which democracy in Scotland poses to the Establishment and to the Union. Naturally a representative from the BBC will have been there.

      As a National reader put it: England’s problem is how to keep Scotlands’ wealth while getting rid of the Scots.

      Right now, Vladimir Putin’s looking like a pretty decent guy – compared to Cameron.

    62. galamcennalath says:

      Only loyal Unionist MPs are welcome in Ye Olde English Mother Parliament. They are obliged to let the others speak and vote, but then it’s another case of “move along, nothing to see!”

    63. manandboy says:

      All this and Fiona Hyslop is looking forward to the ‘new’ BBC. The Scottish Government wants a ‘rehabilitated’ BBC – as if the Tories could be ever be ‘rehabilitated’.

    64. X_Sticks says:

      Reminds me of a little poem called Antigonish by Hughes Mearns that was a favourite of my father-in-law who passed away before having a chance to vote No. In his defence he did believe that Scottish independence is inevitable.

      Yesterday, upon the stair,
      I met a man who wasn’t there.
      He wasn’t there again today,
      I wish, I wish he’d go away…

      When I came home last night at three,
      The man was waiting there for me
      But when I looked around the hall,
      I couldn’t see him there at all!
      Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
      Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door…

      Last night I saw upon the stair,
      A little man who wasn’t there,
      He wasn’t there again today
      Oh, how I wish he’d go away…

    65. David says:

      “The Scottish nationalists” or “the Scottish separatists”

    66. manandboy says:

      Doug Morrison @ 8 September, 2015 at 2:21 pm says:
      “You know, I don’t think it’s deliberate.”

      Naw, Doug, neither were The Clearances.

    67. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      Sin Nemo Pluribus (But not more)

    68. RJF says:

      No need to be so chippy about it, Reverend. The story isn’t that the SNP opposed the government – that’s like running a headline saying “BREAKING NEWS – water is wet! Scientists shocked!” The story is that Tory pushed it past the line and defeated the government.

    69. Truth says:

      I think the greens call it the Non-Labour Party

    70. Quoth Macart: “To be fair pretty much all of the YES vote would have been pretty certain that Mr Cameron was being less than honest and I’m willing to bet all of the soft NO vote.”

      A few soft NOs have told me since that they voted out of fear – they believed that Scotland could be successfully independent, all else being equal, but they didn’t believe the rUK establishment would LET it happen. They liked the idea of indy, but didn’t have the bottle for a fight. No doubt that view was enhanced when Project Fear cranked up to 11 in the last fortnight.

      Cameron, Broon, etc, didnae gie a fig whether they were believed or trusted at that stage, the message was simply: “we are terribly powerful – if you vote YES we will be angry, and will make life hard for you” – classic tactics to keep an abusive relationship together. It seems a lot of Mibbe-Ayes bottled it at that stage. The UK plc message wasn’t ‘trust us’ – it was ‘we can’t be trusted, there will be no amicable split’.

      This is why a sovereign currency proposal and a clear guarantee over pensions are so important for IndyRef2, whenever it materialises. Some timid voters think rUK will use every stick it possesses to beat us post-Indy – so let’s take away their sticks.

      (My own view is that as soon as iScotland is a fait accompli, London will stop the hysterical fearmongering and make the best of the new situation in a friendly way. But others are not thus persuaded.)

    71. Can anyone tell me who is paying Carmichael’s legal bill?

    72. heedtracker says:

      Dr Jim says:
      8 September, 2015 at 1:54 pm
      They don’t like us either

      Watch the Skies

      The toryboy drone strikes were a test of the all new shiny generation toryboy drones, currently in production near Cambridge. They cost a gazillion quid each, pricey yes, but think of all the juicy multiplier jobs, Cambridge house prices, etc…

      UKOK drone production is a Crash Brown legacy and the new ones are a lot more powerful than the ones he UKOK’d.

      “Once airborne the mission is flown by the crews of 39 Squadron from Creech Air Force Base in the USA by secure satellite communication before control is handed back to the crew in theatre for landing.”

      War is good

    73. Luigi says:

      Och, it would spoil BBC Labour’s narrative that a vote for the SNP is a wasted vote. Can’t have the SNP looking good at WM, No No No!. 🙁

      Remember folks, BBC Labour has a serious job to do. It’s a difficult enough job holding back the tartan hordes, and they can’t afford to let truth get in the way.

    74. louis.b.argyll says:

      Surely the BBC in Scotland, have a duty to let us know what our democratically elected representatives are debating and voting on.

      No need to reply, and don’t call me Shirley..

    75. Grouse Beater says:

      “The BBC is a strictly impartial broadcaster” BBC executive days ago.

      In which case the BBC is a bloody inept organise, blind and truly dumb.

    76. Shug says:

      I really think it is time for wings to get a higher profile by advertising or occasional flyers for distribution
      If the bulk of the public could see the BBC for what it is there would be 70’/. for independence
      A fund raiser pleas rev and time to up it on aunty

    77. K1 says:

      He’s not being ‘chippy’ RJF, he’s pointing out the facts: Even if those Tories voted against the government, it wouldn’t have made ‘the difference’. It’s the SNP votes that made the difference, not the Tories!

      The Story is that this BBC report is not reporting the true unassailable facts.

    78. Grouse Beater says:

      David: The Scottish nationalists” or “the Scottish separatists”

      There is no such thing as a separatist under the Union of the Crowns. To be separatist means to be a republican, and they hold no power at the moment.

      RJF: The story is that Tory pushed it past the line and defeated the government.

      Is that the alternative comedy narrative?

      Doug: I don’t think it’s deliberate. It’s a mindset sort of a thing

      One and the same thing, often known as a Freudian slip. I worked with those decision makers; the emphasis, the wink and the nod, is to marginalise the SNP. And there has been two BBC Trust enquiries recommending every and all structural differences between Scotland and England must be made plain and obvious in all news broadcasts.

      For example, what news is about England’s NHS, and what is only about Scotland’s.

    79. marydoll says:

      I agree with Shug. lets up the anti on auntie!

    80. manandboy says:

      O/T The ‘No to the EU’ campaign started today, apparently. It’s called ‘The Know’.

      Next up will be a ‘No to Scotland’ campaign.
      It’ll be called ‘We Know’.

    81. Macart says:


      We need those folks to get angry at how they’ve been treated and determined to have their voice heard. We need to give them the confidence and we need to let them know we’re right beside them, that we’re in this for the long the long haul and not just a change of decor.

    82. Albaman says:

      Reply to Alex Beveridge.
      Could that be Wullie Rennie, and his dwindling Scottish supporters .

    83. Grouse Beater says:

      Can anyone tell me who is paying Carmichael’s legal bill?

      Us. The taxpayer.

      Last (unofficial) estimate £1.5 million, that included the inquiry into the leaked memo. The sod has no conscience. If we win, he pays Orkney group’s costs.

      Here’s the MSM press at work:

    84. K1 says:

      Aye Scunterb, I think you are absolutely correct about this, it was the ‘threatening’ of scorched earth deprivations if we voted Yes that held back that last 5 to 10%. That is what is so sickening, they went for the most vulnerable with: Pensions.

      Ignorance is not bliss. Anyone who has ever lived abroad having resided and worked in the UK, gets their pension. This is fact.

      Gordon Brown is an utter disgrace of a human being. Liars and bullies.

      They’ll live to regret what they’ve done. What goes around comes around…in a different guise perhaps, but it is how life works. Consequences.

    85. heedtracker says:

      Incidentally and paranoiacally, about a minute after posting that Crash Brown/RAF Reaper linked comment, my internet greyed out for another minute or so. No paranoia here, but UKOK spooks, if you’re tuning in, do one.

    86. davidb says:

      Hmm. I noticed how curious it was at 1PM Radio 4 led on SNP & Labour calling for inquiry into drone killings in Syria. I just assumed the consensus in the Truth Ministry is that we can be tarred as being pro ISIS.

      And I’m still boycotting every orifice of the MOT. It was pure chance I caught the broadcast. I wasn’t there long.

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      Are folk finally beginning to wake up to the crypto-Fascist nature of UKOK plc.?

      If you want “Blood and Soil”, just take a look at what was driving the predominantly Fabian-lead Victorian social reform movement in England. Take a look at their world-view and their ambitions. Fascism was born in the English Home Counties, by the same interests that just too a long dump on Scotland’s democracy.

      Fabianism = the meeting point of Fascism and Communism = Better Together UKOK.

    88. Graeme says:

      The SNP is up against a ruthless and experienced enemy. England knows she has lost Scotland but will hang on at any cost.
      The Referendum was tweaked to support the Union. The SNP then swept Labour away and that was used to frighten Middle England into voting Tory. The Tories now have their majority in the UK and a tweaked Referendum in their back pocket. Most of Middle England know nothing about us and care less…in future they will hear nothing about Scotland. With the oil finished and Scotland a financial ruin, we may then be offered our freedom. By then we will be awash with immigrants.

    89. scottieDog says:

      If the bbc is a auntie, doesn’t that make Jimmy Saville ‘uncle’?

    90. Glamaig says:

      Shug at 2:59

      I really think it is time for wings to get a higher profile by advertising or occasional flyers for distribution
      If the bulk of the public could see the BBC for what it is there would be 70’/. for independence

      I remember seeing the Wings poster on Glasgow Underground, the one about 37 newspapers being against independence and only one for.

      That was very effective, a very simple and uncontestable statement of truth. I was always going to vote yes, but I was not politically engaged at all. That poster was the start of something for me.

      I’d like to see adverts in public places for Ponsonby’s book on BBC Bias, and Prof Robertsons.

    91. Marga says:

      OT, sorry, in Cataluña the Catalan independentists are also being “disappeared”.

      Plebiscite elections are being held on 29 September – only last week the regulations of the Constitutional Court were changed to give it powers to remove the new (independentist) president from office instantly with no right of hearing or defence. The Court is for the first time ever apparently on special Sunday duty the day of the elections.

      The Minister of Defence has also just “reminded” us that constitutionally, the armed forces can be used to protect the unity of the nation. Usually a discreet individual (he’s an arms trader, not a politician by profession) he is being taken seriously.

      Look out for the black hole that used to be Catalonia.

    92. K1 says:


      I see you’re a cheery chap Graeme, got a really positive outlook going on there, seems to be a mix of msm shite and a heavy dose of personal fear and self loathing.

      England don’t ‘own’ Scotland, and therefore cannot lose Scotland, we’re not a fucking possession of England’s!

      The tories just got defeated on one of their bills as this article pointed out, by the SNP MP’s numbers making the crucial difference. They have a slight majority, which is weak as this shows.

      We’re one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, Without Oil, so what are you on about wi your “financial ruin” pish?

      The UK election wasn’t won because of the fear of the SNP, that’s been pretty much debunked, it was won by the ‘shy’ tory vote that is always present in England.

      You contradict yourself by saying the SNP somehow ‘frightened’ “Middle England into voting Tory” and in the same unbroken paragraph state that “Middle England know nothing about us and care less”. Make up yer mind, we’re either terrifyingly powerful, or not worth a shit.

      As for your racist little finishing sentence about being “awash with immigrants”. We’re all immigrants. But we’re not all refugees.

      Must try harder Graeme. 0/10.

    93. Dave Robb says:

      Gave them some “feedback” to an actual person – BBC story now seems a bit better.

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. It’s a crypto-Fascist world and the Fabian Society works tirelessly to ensure it stays that way for as long as possible (e.g. the UN’s Sustainability paradigm lacks cultural diversity as a key principle, so merely encourages globalisation dominated by monopolist interests).

      Revolution through small steps, indeed. The opposite is the fact.

      @ The BBC
      Down with this sort of thing.

    95. dakk says:

      Sir Jimmy Saville would turn in his grave if he knew how low the State Broadcaster and his former employers had sunk.

      These Great British institutions.

      What are they like ? British values indeed.

    96. heedtracker says:

      England don’t ‘own’ Scotland, and therefore cannot lose Scotland, we’re not a fucking possession of England’s!

      England’s near on 600 MP’s decide what happens and how in their Scotland region. Until that ends, England owns Scotland.

    97. Triangular Ears says:

      So, ‘bring down Labour in 1979’ by allegedly tipping a vote in the commons -> never hear the end of it.

      But _actually_ tip a vote to defeat the Tories -> never hear the start of it.

      No doubt we’ll read all about it in ‘Scotland’s Champion’…

    98. gerry parker says:

      @ Shug.

      Perfectly correct.

      I’m hounding the SNP media centre for putting direct links into their website.

      Me and stoker have been using the contact form on that site to point out that using

      does not increase the website traffic to the BBC “news” service. Join us if you want, the more the merrier.

      They have noted our comments, I would prefer they act upon them. We must cut off all support (however small) to the BBC.

      I actually linked them to this site (using Archive)

    99. Thepnr says:


      England owns Scotland.

      For now. We’re working on it.

    100. heedtracker says:

      Press and Journal DO report Carmicheal case today, page 11, “Carmichael getting on with Westminster job” headline, focus on STV coverage and “MP thanks supporters as election challenge starts”

      Hard core tory P&J not as blatantly biased/awful as BBC but quote Carmichael Facebook stuff what he says like, “the number of people stopping us in the street and wishing us well is quite touching” and Carmichael QC says his whopper telling was irrelevant to Carmichael election.

      This sounds a lot like the kind of legal bullshit that got whatshisface Coulson from the SUN of the hook over Sheridan perjury, whatever he said, he didn’t affect Sheridan trial outcome, UKOK.

    101. Graeme says:

      I suppose it does look a bit gloomy…but I am very much a Yes man.
      England does think it owns Scotland..I’ve even spoken to English people who think the oil belongs to them…which of course it does.
      Do you recall Miliband swearing that he would never ever do a deal with the SNP? Scots out of their Box frighten the the English. Cameron pushed this line vigorously before the Election.
      The Tories are a vicious lot. What do we do now?
      PS Immmigrants are a useful tool of the Establishment.
      PPS Time for a beer.

    102. Schrodingers cat says:


      That is a very interesting idea

      I would suggest a small newspaper, individual flyers, for posting in public spaces we can print ourselves, indeed, I think the rev has already posted PDFs for us to do exactly that

      I’m part of. A political organization, which will remain nameless :).
      But I’m in charge of delivering loads of their leaflets in my area. Such a wos newspaper could, accidentally get folded up and accidentally get posted through every letter box in my constituency. Accidentally

      Point I am making
      We already have a distribution network available

      The official position of wos, is is not part of the said unmentionable political party
      The official position of said political party is that wos is nothing to do with them

      There are many very good reasons why this is the case, which I don’t want to discuss right now, wos was not part of the official yes campaign, but it was the supporters of the yes campaign who delivered 300,000 wee blue books?

      The unionists don’t have the activists to deliver anything, so they pay the postie to do it
      We, on the other hand, are legion

      Not a daily newspaper, just a one off,
      I’m certain we could ensure that everyone in Scotland will know who wos is, I’m also certain that such a newspaper would get delivered to every house in Scotland

      We have proven already that we can do this

    103. GallusEffie says:


      thanks…must admit I’m a wee bit apprehensive about what may happen next. But more so I refuse to keep funding a corrupt and biased media outlet. I feel heaps cleaner.

    104. michael diamond says:

      Sadly heedtracker, have to agree with you.

    105. Schrodingers cat says:

      Ot on this thread but someone read the unionist of the day article the rev posted earlier

    106. Jim Thomson says:

      @Maid_in_Scotland 2:24pm

      Had a quick look. I’m sure I’ve seen them do that in the past too. There is no excuse, not even crass stupidity. Unless there’s some dodgy software supplying the “country” part of the location, it can only be wilful.

      At the foot of the webpages they have a “Contact Us” link, which is pretty useless for e-mail comments/complaints about their website but, there is a “Livechat” tab across on the right of the page near the top.

      It might be interesting to engage with a “live” person to figure out how stupid they really are.

    107. Andrew Haddow says:


      Aye, let’s up the anti-Auntie ante.

    108. AndyH says:

      England owns shit!

      More than half of the residents here are shitebags/selfish/Britnats and voted no to Indy.

      That’s all and it’s about to change in the next few years.


    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cadogan Enright says: 8 September, 2015 at 12:45 pm

      “There was no mention of SNP role in any of this on radio 4 – I have ‘phoned in a complaint last night of course – presumably the BBC are not doing it deliberately – its just that they don’t see the world the way a normal person outside of their BBC bubble would see it.”

      Almost right, Cadogan, but the truth is the BBC do not know there are any people living outside the M25 in the entire British Archipelago. What is more they only legislate for those who reside south of the Watford Gap.

    110. Lesley-Anne says:

      Hmm … I don’t have a BBC tax thingy so I’m not entirely certain if I am permitted to comment on the BBC’s non comment about the most commented about party in Scotland. 😛

      With regards to which party the BBC did not make any comment on regarding the kick up the earse given to David “the coward” Cameron last night it was quite obviously the Judean People’s Front or was it the People’s Front of Judea? 😀

    111. Jim Thomson says:

      @Schrodingers cat 4:44pm

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    112. Thepnr says:


      Believe me, we have nothing to fear. After all that is their only weapon. Be pleased and proud of what you have done. It is a poke in the eye for those that need us to swallow their propaganda.

      You have said, “NO MORE” believe me they will hear your voice as there are many thousands standing beside you that have taken the same action.

      I think it is great that we can make such a statement from our own armchair “I will not pay you to beam anymore propaganda into my home”.

      The BBC and MSM are already lost to us that voted Yes, we let them know this by no longer paying for their propaganda to be beamed into our homes nor buying their newspapers.

      We will use social media and word of mouth to spread our message.

      Hope over Fear.

    113. David McDowell says:

      Any minute now the BBC are going to bring in a “universal levy” which all households will be required to pay, regardless of whether they watch live TV or even have a TV.

      In my opinion if this “universal levy” comes in it is time for people to take an organised, collective stand against the BBC’s new funding mechanism.

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      @ahundredthidiot says: 8 September, 2015 at 1:06 pm

      “We need to keep the streets of little Britain safe……so, we will (allegedly) kill our own citizens (knowingly) abroad. Next stop, killing them at home.”

      Sadly they have been doing the, “killing them at home”, thing now for quite some considerable time. Google Metropolitan Police shoot Man, and the numbers involved may shock you.

      Then we have the several thousand of sick and disabled people classed as fit to work how have died shortly thereafter. Not to mention the large numbers made ill by starvation after being sanctioned.

      This Tory government has killed far more UK citizens in the UK than all the terrorists put together.

    115. Dan Huil says:

      OT Sorry Rev.

      We’re hearing a lot about the Attorney General telling Cameron his recent killings were legal. The current AG is Jeremy Wright MP. But he is AG for England and Wales [ex-officio Attorney General for Northern Ireland].

      So what, if any, was Scotland’s say in all of this?

    116. Lesley-Anne says:

      David McDowell says:
      8 September, 2015 at 5:08 pm

      Any minute now the BBC are going to bring in a “universal levy” which all households will be required to pay, regardless of whether they watch live TV or even have a TV.

      Oh nooo! NOT the Levees! Have the BBC no idea what can happen to levees? I mean did they not report on what happened to the levees in New Orleans a few years back?

      Oh wait a minute different sort of levy there. … OOPS! 😀

    117. Lesley-Anne says:

      Dan Huil says:
      8 September, 2015 at 5:19 pm

      OT Sorry Rev.

      We’re hearing a lot about the Attorney General telling Cameron his recent killings were legal. The current AG is Jeremy Wright MP. But he is AG for England and Wales [ex-officio Attorney General for Northern Ireland].

      So what, if any, was Scotland’s say in all of this?

      You mean apart from NO input at all?

      I’m afraid the Viceroy for Scotland was unavailable to give his *ahem* advice that day Dan he was otherwise engaged … checking for pot holes in the roads of Dumfries an Galloway.

      Well someone has to do it they won’t check themselves you know! 😀

    118. Marco McGinty says:

      I know people keep going on about the media in North Korea, presumably as a result of what we have been told it is like by the “experts” in the UK media.

      I admit that I have no knowledge of North Korean media, but I honestly cannot see how it can possibly be any worse than UK media.

    119. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 8 September, 2015 at 2:58 pm:

      “The BBC is a strictly impartial broadcaster” BBC executive days ago. In which case the BBC is a bloody inept organise, blind and truly dumb”.

      The fact, Grouse Beater, is that you cannot believe a word the BBC says, on or off air.

    120. Anagach says:

      Just checked back to the BBC before complaining and the article has been altered to add “and the SNP”.

      More strength to the Rev and the readers here.

    121. Lollysmum says:

      Personally I’d like to know how UK managed to kill someone on August 22nd when US reported they’d killed him in a drone strike on July 21st. It was reported in almost all of our papers on July 22nd with photos of Reyaad.

      Did they exhume his body to have that 2nd go at killing him or is something else going on here???????

    122. Thepnr says:

      I’ve got a wee dug and he was a puppy once. We were house training him once and thought we were doing well until he had a shit behind the settee!

      Now normally that wouldn’t be a big deal, the issue was we could smell it but couldn’t find it.

      So for days the living room had a fair whiff in it and there was nothing we could do. Eventually there was no smell and it became a distant memory.

      That is exactly what the BBC and government are doing to YOU. They are crapping in your living room and hoping that the stench will fade but linger as a distant memory.

      I stopped listening to their crap and the house now smells as sweat as can be. If there is a stink in your house, first look behind the telly for there is surely a toley lurking there.

      Get rid of the toleys by not paying the licence!

    123. Stoker says:

      That must be this “pooling and sharing” thingy they keep bumping their gums about.

      Red Tories side with blue Tories to defeat blue Tory masters!

      Ah, got it, better together, pooling and sharing, United Kingdom etc. So glad i finally worked that one out, i’ll sleep better now!

      Don’t you just love a Torylicious democracy – Working for you even if the figures don’t.

      David McDowell wrote:
      “Any minute now the BBC are going to bring in a “universal levy” which all households will be required to pay, regardless of whether they watch live TV or even have a TV.”
      “In my opinion if this “universal levy” comes in it is time for people to take an organised, collective stand against the BBC’s new funding mechanism.”

      I agree 100%! It will be time for everyone to stand up and be counted. The BBC, their masters and their enforcers must be held responsible.

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      Good grief, and the BBC is stupid enough to think the whole of the UK, with all the publicity the SNP have had, their 56 MPs at Westminster, won’t notice.

      The BBC even insults the intelligence of the UK, let alone just Scotland. What dicks.

    125. Sinky says:

      Hootsman gleefully reports Labour’s claims that North Sea Oil is finished

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      The BBC do have half a brain to share between them but the person that has it has gone on permanent leave.

      By the way, regarding several comments about sudden changes to the sign-in info remaining or not, it’s very possible a fumble at the keyboard hit “ctrl” at the same time as some letter and changed the browser settings via shortcuts.

      Mmm, now to go and reconfigure firefox …

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dan Huil
      The AG (Advocate General) for Scotland is also a Government appointment, currently held by Lord Keen of Elie QC, formerly chair of the Scottish Conservative Party. The positions are Government appointments for some odd reason.

    128. Thepnr says:


      Just checked back to the BBC before complaining and the article has been altered to add “and the SNP”.

      More strength to the Rev and the readers here.

      Not just that, but that excuse for a Conservative Councilor apparently has been suspended. Much as I dislike to do so, tips hat to Ruth Davidson.

      Guess she reads Wings too.

    129. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graeme says: 8 September, 2015 at 4:28 pm:

      “The Tories are a vicious lot. What do we do now?
      PS Immmigrants are a useful tool of the Establishment.
      PPS Time for a beer.”

      You seem not to have noticed that the SNP in Holyrood, Westminster and the local councils have more than the average population share of immigrants. Never forget either the older immigrants from Ireland, Poland, Italy and even England.

      They are indeed useful – but as good Scots independence supporters. One of the most patriotic Scots I ever met was dressed in full Sikh dress but with a tartan turban and a tartan sash. It was many years ago now but he was a shop owner on the Royal Mile.

      Scots born and Scottish to the core. His family were several generations in Scotland, (He had even supported the Hibees since he was a boy).

    130. Cod says:

      Well, at least the Beeb appears to have updated the story to mention the SNP. It’s not much but it’s something.

    131. Tinto Chiel says:

      Invisible members, is it? Nothing new there. Came across this in my book at bedtime last night:

      “It was a humiliating experience to sit in the British House of Commons, one of a majority returned to the House of Commons to push on a policy of fundamental social change for the benefit of the Scottish people, and to find the Scottish majority steadily voted down by the votes of the English members pledged to a policy of social stagnation.

      “It was now over two hundred years since the Union of Parliaments, and although one was perpetually told of the blessings conferred on Scotland by the Union, it was difficult to find any blessings except the somewhat doubtful one of fighting England’s wars.”

      Jimmy Maxton, 1923.

    132. gerry parker says:

      Afternoon Gerry,

      I have responded to you regarding this matter previously.

      The SNP will link to different sources and resources to share news and information including the BBC.

      Thanks for your suggestion.

      Kind regards,

      I replied:-

      You have indeed Ria, but you still do not seem to realise that by directly linking to the BBC site, you are actively promoting them as a “news” organisation which they are not. It is a propaganda organisation.

      Check the link I sent you regarding their output and then think of whether the SNP should be supporting the BBC when they obviously despise us and openly lie about us.

      You can use the archive link to create a url which will link to the page without increasing traffic to the page, much like I did to the Wings over Scotland article.

      You still see all the information, but you don’t increase traffic to the site.

      I will continue to bring this matter to your attention if it occurs in the future.

      gerry parker

    133. peekay says:

      It’s been changed to;
      “But this came after Conservative rebels and opposition from Labour and the SNP helped inflict a government defeat over the campaigning rules, by 312 to 285.”

    134. Stoker says:

      @ Thepnr (5.45pm) – You wrote:
      “Get rid of the toleys by not paying the licence!”

      Aye, there’s no better way of sending a strong message.

      As Morag would say – Why would you pay someone to lie to you?

      Liars with zero credibility – Boycott the BBC and their licence fee.

    135. Proud Cybernat says:

      BBC Levy my earse. It is an ‘Information Tax’. The BBC is simply being used as the ‘front’ for the BritNat Establishment to control information. They will soon be taxing you for any device you own that has access to any BBC service via tablet, mobile, PC, laptop, TV, etc. If you don’t pay the ‘Info Tax’ then you won’t be allowed to own/use any of those devices and you will be disconnected from ALL information sources, not just the BBC. THAT is their real agenda, to control the information being exchanged via the internet. The only info you will then have surrounding you is 99% of BritNat MSM guff. Job done.

    136. mike cassidy says:

      Sorry, BBC.

      I drove my chevy to the levee

      But the levee was dry.

    137. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lollysmum says: 8 September, 2015 at 5:45 pm:

      “Personally I’d like to know how UK managed to kill someone on August 22nd when US reported they’d killed him in a drone strike on July 21st. It was reported in almost all of our papers on July 22nd with photos of Reyaad.”

      It’ll be the international date line, Lollysmum.

    138. GallusEffie says:


      thanks for that encouraging post. I think the rejection of the licence comes at a price of previously always doing “the right thing” and realising that rejecting the licence now is the right thing.

    139. Grouse Beater says:

      Sinky: Hootsman gleefully reports Labour’s claims that North Sea Oil is finished

      I’ll wager £10 the Scotsman hard copy will disappear long before the oil does.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was surprised to see you commenting blt. Then I remembered I still need glasses. 🙂

    141. Graeme says:

      I notice that most such ‘tourist’ shops in the Royal Mile and Princes’ Street appear to be owned by Asians. That doesn’t make the owners Scottish.

    142. JLT says:

      I still believe that Westminster’s full bitterness at the SNP will truly manifest at the very moment Nicola states her intentions for another Referendum, and that will be when the ‘Unholy Trinity’ is finally in full swing.

      The Unholy Trinity in my book is (1) EVEL, (2) Austerity Max followed by the threat of an EU exit (3). In my opinion, it will be the EU exit that will be the final straw for Nicola.

      And though Cameron keeps saying that he will get changes to the policies of ‘freedom of Movement’ and ‘Human Rights’; he won’t. Those two acts are literally sacrosanct in what the EU stands for. And when Merkel and Co tell Cameron in no uncertain terms that the answer is ‘No’ to changes to either act, then that’s when I expect his backbenchers to begin screaming at him for a UK exit from the EU.

      That’s when Nicola will play her ace should Cameron concede to his backbenchers.

      And that’s when the full hatred towards the SNP will manifest at Westminster and the State Media.

    143. Dan Huil says:

      @ yesindyref2 6.08pm

      Thanks for the information. Explains a lot.

    144. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 8 September, 2015 at 6:30 pm:

      ” … They will soon be taxing you for any device you own that has access to any BBC service via tablet, mobile, PC, laptop, TV, etc. If you don’t pay the ‘Info Tax’ then you won’t be allowed to own/use any of those devices and you will be disconnected from ALL information sources

      Except that such a ploy will backfire upon them. The YES movement has proven they can get their message out by social interaction. Banning on-line information is not easy and they just don’t have the numbers to police people’s usage.

      It would cost them a lot to encode their services and there isn’t an encoded service that cannot be cracked.

    145. Rock says:

      The BBC is not biased – that was the public opinion of Blair Jenkins, leader of the Yes campaign, at the height of the campaign.

      The BBC is not deliberately biased – according to Derek Bateman at the height of the referendum campaign.

      It is high time that Nicola Sturgeon publicly accuses the BBC of deliberate anti-SNP, anti-independence and anti-Scotland bias.

    146. john king says:

      I see we’ve aquired a new troll, can I keep him? I promise I’ll walk him every day. 🙂

    147. heedtracker says:

      Red toryboys eh, silly old Dunc, again.

      Duncan Hothersall
      If nothing else the #Carmichael case reminds us we must value journalism – making this stuff accessible is a true skill. #buyapaper

    148. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 8 September, 2015 at 6:33 pm

      “Sinky: Hootsman gleefully reports Labour’s claims that North Sea Oil is finished.

      I’ll wager £10 the Scotsman hard copy will disappear long before the oil does.”

      The real laugh is their use of the term, “Scotland’s Oil Economy”. Scotland doesn’t have an oil economy. Scotland gets none of the oil & gas revenues as they are taken by the UK Treasury as from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”.

      Most of the workforce take their earnings home with them and live outside Scotland. Their tax & stamp are paid to the UK by the company head offices in London. The companies pay their business rates and taxes via London head offices. Their shareholders also pay their tax in the City.

      Just some of the service industry have bases in Scotland that’s about it. Also some of their gear and supplies are bought in Scotland but the bulk of the earnings goes directly to the UK.

      Yet these unionist idiots celebrate when the oil & gas revenues take a nosedive. If we ever needed convinced of their utter stupidity this is it.

    149. HandandShrimp says:

      The BBC is bastards

      …..not clever bastards, just bastards.

    150. arthur thomson says:

      ‘The Party that can’t be named’ – I’m sure we could use that.

    151. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi John King.

      There’s only one reason that someone would come on to this site and spout racist claptrap.

      Therefore, I deign to address him directly, lest I am tainted.

    152. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dan Huil
      I didn’t know it until Keen’s appointment when it was almost hidden away in an article about it.

      It explains a lot about the way Jim Wallace was laughing his head off when he came out with his “it’s illegal for Scotland to hold its own referendum”, smiling and smirking and bobbing for the cameras.

      Jim Wallace was appointed on 14th May 2010 as the Advocate General for Scotland, one of the Law Officers of the Crown, who advise the UK government on Scots law. by Cameron and the Conservatives / LibDems, the UK Government.

      He was Westminster’s man in Scotland bought and paid for.

    153. Grouse Beater says:

      I notice that most such ‘tourist’ shops in the Royal Mile and Princes’ Street appear to be owned by Asians. That doesn’t make the owners Scottish.

      Perhaps, but it makes the Planning department staffed with idiots, keen to degrade their own city. It’s not the owners, though they act as if back street stall sellers, it’s the plethora of tat and grot shops that degrades the city and us.

    154. Grouse Beater says:

      Robert Peffers: The fact is that you cannot believe a word the BBC says, on or off air.

      The BBC broadcast a news item on the drone killing British citizens in Syria. Then switched to the sister of a victim here who says we should bomb all Isis and more.

      That’s the BBC shaping our opinion by offering a false balance, and indulging in incitement to murder.

      The corporation is a danger to itself, a travesty of a supposed impartial institution, and a bloody disgrace.

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      The oil industry isn’t as simple as Labour might like people to believe. Much of the work in Scotland is in support companies, and they seem to largely be actually in Scotland or have a strong presence here. Some of them, perhaps even many, also support operations globally, and are continuing to do so even now. Hopefully they won’t be quick to relocate, but will wait and see how the oil price goes.

      This has benefits for other companies even including small businesses some of them here in Scotland. Oil doesn’t have to be actually extracted for there still to be a lot of industry carrying on around the oilfields, old and new, and while there’s oil in the ground, this will continue. I think so – and hope so – as a small business 🙂

      Meanwhile as you rightly point out, oil revenues drop, but so what for Scotland? All we benefit if at all at the moment is to the tune of 8.4%, and an illustrative view of the Scottish Economy in GERS. The reality is that with a NO vote, those revenues are UK revenues, and we get affected very little if they drop.

      On the plus side, the less oil extracted meanwhile, the more that will be left once we get our Independence at which time we get all the revenue, not just an 8.4% share lost in Westminster’s books.

    156. Stoker says:

      Rock wrote:
      “It is high time that Nicola Sturgeon publicly accuses the BBC of deliberate anti-SNP, anti-independence and anti-Scotland bias.”

      Amen to that!

      John King wrote:
      “I see we’ve acquired a new troll, can I keep him? I promise I’ll walk him every day.”

      NAW, ye never looked efter the last yin we gave ye!

      Anyone supporting Unionist news outlets in any way, shape or form, such as paying the licence fee, buying their rags, subscribing to their on-line sites or posting direct links to their sites are simply helping these cretins to survive and spread their lies. No ifs, buts or whatevers.

      Not one of those organisations would EVER allow WOS links to be posted on their sites so why allow them to infect, soil and prosper out of us and our sites?

    157. Tony Little says:

      This all reminds me of the rhyme I learned as a child:

      As I was going up the stair
      I met a man who wasn’t there
      He wasn’t there again today
      I wish that man would go away

      Replace ‘man’ with whatever takes your fancy 😉

    158. Nana Smith says:


      Andy Wightman. Who owns Scotland’s land

    159. Luigi says:

      john king says:
      8 September, 2015 at 7:01 pm

      I see we’ve aquired a new troll, can I keep him? I promise I’ll walk him every day.

      Of course you can, but remember not to feed him after midnight and you must keep him away from water.

    160. Grouse Beater says:

      Here’s something to ponder; friend and admirer of McCaskill. (April 2010)

      Lucky Scottish Heather has form:

      “A conservative candidate has pulled out of the General Election after questions were raised about her financial affairs and the high-profile think-tank that she set up folded in controversial circumstances.

      Heather MacLeod went on to found Social Justice Scotland, an organisation described as a progressive think-tank based around the anti-poverty ideas promoted by the former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith.

      Several other Tories were involved in the project. Its website claimed prominent Scots had been persuaded to serve on its advisory board.

      It was launched in July last year but dissolved in December. Scotland on Sunday understands that concerns from other participants in the project over MacLeod’s finances were behind the decision to close it.”

      It was a big boy made me do it, and the bad SNP!!!

      Not so innocent, then, and certainly easily led.

    161. CameronB Brodie says:

      I notice that most such ‘tourist’ shops in the Royal Mile and Princes’ Street appear to be owned by Asians. That doesn’t make the owners Scottish.

      Just let that sink in folks. The Yes movement needs none of this ‘blood and soil’ shite, IMHO.

    162. K1 says:

      From Rev’s timeline…embarrasing:

      From Channel 4

      Conservative press officer caught at Jeremy Corbyn event:

    163. john king says:

      Stoker says
      “NAW, ye never looked efter the last yin we gave ye!”

      How wis Aa tae ken that lamppost had faulty wirin? 🙁

      Went up like a Roman Candle soin eh did. 🙂

    164. MJS Dundee says:


      Don’t know if anyone followed Gerry’s link much earlier to SNP press release on farmed salmon. []

      Reference link near bottom, apparently it’s been a “Record Year for Salmond productions”

      … Who’s to argue?

      : )

    165. Lollysmum says:

      A poster was asking yesterday (sorry can’t remember who) where the Carmichael case arguments will be posted as the court gave permission to put them into the public domain.

      The constituents Note is here:

    166. David says:

      What’s that someone is saying, Edinburgh tourist shops in the Royal Mile and Princes’ Street appear to be owned by Asians?!

      These Asians, do you mean, the prog rock ones-

      Asia, “Heat of the moment”.
      Rock on Tommy!

    167. Phronesis says:

      Marx wrote that ‘The class which is the ruling material force of society is at the same time the ruling intellectual force'(The German Ideology p64).

      If he was around now he might write something completely different given the power of social media that allows an engaged and educated electorate to share a newly fashioned political consciousness. Our ruling elite appear non-sapient and as the maquillage of UKOK politics slips it also reveals a rather ugly look.

      We have the Fab 56 revealing the truth to all(NO & YES voters) -that Scotland is an irrelevant irritation to the machinations of WM which regards those outside of the 0.1% as subsidy junkies-UKOK are our dealers, the pushers of austerity. Push enough onto us and we might all conveniently expire.

      There is still humanity and compassion in the world to counter the toxic rhetoric of UKOK;

      ‘Glasgow hears Syria’ 6pm Saturday 12th September @St Mary’s Cathedral, Gt Western Rd -Entry by donation-‘A concert of classical and traditional Scottish music’

      Donations to & Amnesty international

    168. Nana Smith says:


      Catalonia prepares to set up central bank, tax offices, army and diplomatic services. Any chance Scotland can follow their example sometime soon, at least a central bank?

    169. ronnie anderson says:

      @ lollysmum on the ball Lolly with they notes,am aw trialed oot I,ll read them at a later date.

      A wee Humours bit today David ( livestream) put his notes in his bag ,I said to David her Ladyship has thrown another name into equasion, he asked who I said Avizandum,he was seaching for his notebook to put the name in I had to tell him what it meant Legal terminoligie , just though i would share that with you,s lol.

    170. Tackety Beets says:

      Kinda OT

      Just been listening to George Kerevan in WM excellent points on Finance.

      Very noticible too, there seams to be as many SNP MPs in the chamber as all the others together.
      Sadly the Tory spoke person Harriet Baldwin was struggling to be respectful of oor George and referred to him a “spoke person from SNP ” then proceeded to have a bit o personal banter with her opposite number in the Labour Party Alison McGovern . FFS ! Even the “ref ” had to intervene and put a stop to their tittles!

      Division bell will ring & the sheep will troop out !

      We often forget what a farce it is , hardly anyone listen to the debate , but no doubt plenty appear to vote.

    171. heedtracker says:

      It is high time that Nicola Sturgeon publicly accuses the BBC of deliberate anti-SNP, anti-independence and anti-Scotland bias

      They have no choice now. BBC gits are clearly not prepared to even try and tolerate SNP or 56 SNP MP’s at Westminster. They will destroy the SNP the same way they destroyed Scargil and the miners.

      BBC has three options or tasks, get SNP out of Holyrood government, ruin Scottish democracy and get SNP out of Westminster. Its going to be a very nasty BBC vote SLab Scottish election campaign in a few months time. Hootsman, Herald, Record, P&J etc will all pile in.

    172. john king says:

      Ronnie Anderson says

      Aa dae ken whit that means,
      Aa’ll hae tae take time fur further consideration oh that wan Ronnie.

    173. Stoker says:

      John King wrote:
      “How wis Aa tae ken that lamppost had faulty wirin?”

      Awe furr gidness sake John, no happy wae wantin ah new troll noo yer tellin us ye’ur responsible furr the high energy bills, ffs!
      You’ll be luckin furr new diggs shortly!

      Nana Smith wrote:
      “Catalonia prepares to set up central bank, tax offices, army and diplomatic services. Any chance Scotland can follow their example sometime soon, at least a central bank?”

      Chance would be a fine thing, eh!

    174. cearc says:


      It was good that you got there both days (I like to think, representing the rest of us).

      I listened to just about all of it through the excellent stream from our chums at

      It was rather interesting and Mitchell’s team had certainly put a lot of work into it, considering that it would all have been pretty new stuff.

    175. Fred says:

      If shops on the Royal Mile could make money selling loaves n fishes they would be selling loaves n fishes. They sell tartan tat? because that’s what the peeps want. Simples!

      Fred lives in Glesga of course but is he ever wants tartan tat he knows where to go! the origin of the vendor is of course a complete irrelevance when purchasing a Jimmy Hat.

    176. Legerwood says:

      Yesterday during the debate about Mr Cameron’s statement re the refugees, and drone attacks, Labour announced it was calling a debate or some such for today despite the SNP having tabled a debate on the subject of the refugees for Wednesday.

      Anyone know what happened? I have not seen any reports of it since it was mentioned in one of the news reports yesterday.

    177. Dr Jim says:

      If they vote YES they’re Scottish as far as I’m concerned

    178. john king says:

      “yer tellin us ye’ur responsible furr the high energy bills, ffs!
      You’ll be luckin furr new diggs shortly!”

      Hmmm funny you should say that,
      after Aa went hame wi ma hair oan fire ma claes smolderin and a burnin leash, am noo grounded when the street lights come oan. 🙁

    179. ScottieDog says:

      Re the oil article in the Scotsman.
      We should probably use that piece of Scotsman (labour fanzine) propaganda to our advantage in addition to addressing the currency subject.

      Ok we’ll take labours word for it and just assume that Scotland’s oil is purely scotland’s capital in that case and the industry is a busted flush. We’ll develop a free floating Scottish currency (thankfully they won’t let us use the pound) because a nation is really only independent if it has its own sovereign currency – and it isn’t nearly as fiscally constrained (if at all wrt inflation)….

      So that fiscal stimulus can develop the Clyde once the last sub has gone to Portsmouth. Or it can be used to develop Scotland’s other capital – it’s renewable energy infrastructure if we decide that oil is a stranded asset.

      Of course, it might be self evident at that point that the oil sector is anything but a busted flush as the commodity price rises. If it doesn’t rise however, consider the energy intensity in a barrel of oil. Consider its actual value not its commodity price. An easy way to distinguish the two is to remember that oil was 30 dollars per barrel when labour started murdering Iraqis. That sums up the value of oil.

      The main key to freedom and prosperity however is to have a sovereign currency.

    180. Dr Jim says:

      @ Nana Smith

      You’re right we don’t have those things

      Except for the Army part ( wink )

    181. SISS says:

      The Indy Ref 2 campaign is well underway, with our man Adam in Dover House stirring the pot, ably supported by implanted advisors in the Tory party (send in Hamish Miss Moneygroat).

      All operatives should be on the alert for CI subversives, and are herby activated.


    182. davidb says:


      Its not quite as simple. The rents charged require high margins to afford. The pseudoscottish crap sold to tourists often comes from the usual suspect countries. The high footfall of tourists makes these shops more profitable than loaves and fishes shops, so thats what we get.

      Rent controls in Lisbon kept a lot of smaller diversified businesses trading there – with the downside that property maintenance was neglected.

      So I suspect it could be argued that it is the structure of land and property ownership which is shaping the type of retailers on any high street. What you do about that is beyond me.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim, @Nana Smith
      SDI has 28 offices abroad in the Americas, Asia & Pacific and EMEA, and with the devolution of tax Scotland will have our Revenue Scotland early next year I think. There are still tax offices in Scotland, these could be modified and perhaps existing staff spread out.

      Perhaps one of the reasons Westminster resists more devo for Scotland is it puts us one step nearer having all the offices of state set up, therefore one step nearer to Indy. One of the biggest arguments for going for Devomax of course.

    184. Fred says:

      david, I see the spirit of Miss Jean Brodie still stalks our NO voting capital, or should thet be cepital? cheerie bye!

    185. Capella says:

      @ Lollysmum 5.45
      It’s a miracle. That jehadist is, according to the misinformation industry, an Aberdonian. However, the family moved to Leicester some years ago where he probably fell in with a bad crowd. The family have now moved back to Bangladesh where they originally came from.

      He was brought to our attention in the run up to the referendum. It looks to me as if Scotland had to have its very own jihadist, as well as a UKIP MEP, just to show we’re just like all the rest.

      His powers of resurrection rival his omnipresence. Where will he pop up next?

    186. ronnie anderson says:

      @ John King weil ah hope their Lordships dont take to long,am starting tae pleat ah five strand rope,wan fae the left ,wan ,fae the right .Whits the core rope John am loast.

    187. Papadox says:

      Re the Tory drumbeat to slaughter whipped up by the English Broadcasting Corporation (AKA BBC)
      In conjunction with the MSM (AKA HMG PROPAGANDA UNIT). To rid the Middle East of all indigenous people who follow their Moslem faith.thankfully we don’t have the military power of 100 years ago we have to follow the great satan’s instructions and hope for some crumbs off their table.

      We, Scotland have to rely on a deadbeat country, England to give us direction. God help us.

      The last actions off a burnt out aged bully or a sinking old ship, time for the lifeboats.

    188. manandboy says:

      Westminster changed the Defcon setting over the weekend probably from 4 to 3. Looks like relations between Scotland and England will be a bit strained for some time.

    189. David McDowell says:

      “It is high time that Nicola Sturgeon publicly accuses the BBC of deliberate anti-SNP, anti-independence and anti-Scotland bias.”

      Rock – the only problem is, just 11 days ago Nicola Sturgeon said: “I am not saying there was institutional bias in the BBC’s referendum output.” (The National, August 28th)

      She appears to think the “incompetent and lazy” line is better. But the idea Westminster will turn round and say: “You want control over the propaganda club we battered you into the ground with during the referendum? No problem, Nicola!” seems to me to be fanciful in the extreme. Why on earth would they do that? It just doesn’t make sense.

      Speaking for myself, I am heartily sick of BBC Scotland’s now constant, rabid anti-Scottish propaganda. Since being outed during the referendum they hardly even try to hide it any more.

      For goodness sake, even the prosecuting advocate in the Carmichael court hearing criticised the BBC’s coverage of the case during his argument!

      And in my opinion, as long as the Unionists can roll out this “big gun” to terrorise the pensioners during a referendum, we will never gain independence.

    190. msean says:

      Missed out SNP and inadvertently made it look like Labour worked with some Tories.

    191. The Dog Philosopher says:

      Yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, look what you get …

      Wayne Rooney now been on throne longer than anyone and Her Madge has netted more than leg end Bobby Combover …

      Just another day in ‘England’s dreaming’.

    192. heedtracker says:

      And in my opinion, as long as the Unionists can roll out this “big gun” to terrorise the pensioners during a referendum, we will never gain independence.

      Toryboy Working Majority…16, at least half of them make Farage look like the Dalai Lama.

    193. Dr Jim says:

      Wee Nippy’s on the front cover of Vogue with a seemingly good article inside

      No a bad foty looks a wee bit American Soccer Mom

    194. Capella says:

      @ Lollysmum
      Maybe you meant the Cardiff jihadist? He too was resurrected. Many converts might be impressed by their powers of renewal.

      Pressreader carries a story from the Scottish Daily Mail 18th July 2015 by Emma Cowling called “Is the Granite City jihadi back from the dead?” That is about Abdul Rakib Amin who lived for a time in Aberdeen. Sadly, I can’t seem to get a link to the article that isn’t “locked”.

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      @David McDowell
      The latest poll, the Ipsos Mori that shows excluding DKs, YES at 55%, showed the 55s and over including 65+, at 43% YES from the top of my head. Compared to a rough average in the Ref of 35% YES. A movement of +23% in that age group compared to an overall +22%, so slightly above average.

    196. CameronB Brodie says:

      davidb @ 10:32pm
      My apologies if you are involved in urban planning but your analysis, though incomplete, sounds about right to me. I’ve forgotten more about this stuff than is helpful and I didn’t specialise in town-centre regeneration/management (I worked in transport planning), so can’t fill in the blanks or come up with solutions.

      The main strategy touted when I was last involved in planning (20 years ago), was “place marketing”. Creating/enhancing a ‘sense of place’ by emphasising unique local features/context and often involving ‘landmark’ developments (often white elephants), in order to compete in a globalised economy for foreign direct investments.

      New York City was the first metropolis to adopt this approach in the ’70s (I Love New York), when Wall Street ‘bankrupted’ the city. I think it’s a beggar-thy-neighbour approach but we live in a neo-liberal world.

      There are other oppinions though.

    197. CameronB Brodie says:

      I just re-read my comment at 3:51 pm. I didn’t mean the Fabian Society are responsible for and have ownership of the current Sustainability paradigm. However, Fabian interests are well represented among those who are shaping the developmental framework for the 21st century.

      Anyway, they’re at it. Just ask George Orwell. 😉

    198. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graeme says: 8 September, 2015 at 6:36 pm:

      “I notice that most such ‘tourist’ shops in the Royal Mile and Princes’ Street appear to be owned by Asians. That doesn’t make the owners Scottish.”

      It does if they were some of the Leithers of Asian descent that went to school with me in the late 1940s whose families had been living in that large international port for generations.

      We had all sorts in the school including lots of Europeans whose families had escaped from the Nazis in WWII but, like most of the UK port towns there were people from every continent who had settled in Britain and including Scotland for generations.

    199. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 8 September, 2015 at 7:50 pm

      ” … Meanwhile as you rightly point out, oil revenues drop, but so what for Scotland? All we benefit if at all at the moment is to the tune of 8.4%, … “

      Err! no we do not benefit by 8.4% – we get nothing whatsoever. Every penny is classed as being earned from Extra-region-territory and goes directly to the UK Treasury.

      That 8.4% is no more than a creative accounting scam. When they produce their figures they do so as statistics and they credit 8.4% of the oil & gas revenues as having been earned by Scotland on the premise that the full 100% amount of the revenue belongs to the UK and Scots make up 8.6% of the UK’s population and thus Scotland is said to have earned 8.4% on a per capita basis GDP basis.

      I’ll put that another way the UK claims 100% 0f the oil but for statistical reasons only they state the figures as a UK per capita Gross Domestic Product. Now a per capita GDP is the revenue earned per head of population of any given area.

      So, even if any particular area raises nothing whatsoever of oil & gas revenues then it has a per capita number of population that sets their statistically credited GDP.

      The scam is that 95% of the revenues from oil & gas come from Scottish waters and those GDP figures should be geographic. The English have been at this statistics game for forever. When coal was the big earner the Scots and Welsh were the main per capita producers but the statistics included the non-coal producing areas of the south UK.

      When heavy engineering was the big earners the Scots and N. Irish were the biggest per capita earners. Which explains why the English hogged the car industries. It also explains why the English are the great Unionists.

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      Opinions : Essays : George Orwell, Socialist, Anarchist or what…? 🙂 🙂

    201. gus1940 says:


      I hope that I will be proved wrong but does anybody else think that we might be in line to get The Queen Elizabeth Borders Railway later today.

    202. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a thoughtful essay by Nick Cohen. Oh the irony. ;(

      How to be a tractor [ed.]

    203. scotspine says:

      @ gus1940

      It wouldn’t surprise me. I

      It’s like the Unionist Establishment have a big red white and blue crayon set and are furiously scribbling child-like union flags all over the map (miniaturised by the BBC) of Scotland.

      I can’t get over the mentality of turning out in your best duds to bow and scrape before an auld aloof wifie and crusty old rude man, neither of whom will give you another thought after the smell of fresh paint has left their nostrils.

      It’s pathetic really.

    204. Breeks says:

      I wonder how long it will be before the words of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are spoken by actors.

    205. john king says:

      Could this be the next LibDem conference? 🙂

    206. john king says:


    207. CameronB Brodie says:

      For those who don’t click through.

      The most startling concept that Orwell deals with in ‘Nineteen Eighty-four’ is the idea that a political party could see power as being the ultimate goal. The Party rules over its people without even the pretence that it is governing for the benefit of the people.

      Opinions : Essays : Orwell’s Political Messages

      Eh, BBC Labour Better Together in Scotland UKOK?

    208. manandboy says:


      In recent years, the idea of having a ‘roadmap’ has become popular in political circles. But in the UK right now, no one is talking ‘roadmap’ for the UK, probably because no one knows quite where we’re going.

      However we do have road ‘signs’ to help us understand where we are and the direction of travel. And we’re going to need them, because the Tories are set to take us to a place where we’d rather not go.
      It’s a place where democracy, freedom and the Rule of Law have all been trampled underfoot, and, ominously, they have all the time in the world in which to do it, with most of this Parliament – and probably the next – still to come. Nine years and eight months. It’s going to be a long road.

      One of these ‘signs’, is that the Tory Government has all but abandoned the conventional rules of governance and has chosen just to do what it likes. Faced with major democratic change in Scotland which they hate and cannot accept, the Tories are now behaving like petulant and spiteful schoolboys – public schoolboys of course.
      To instruct the BBC to omit any references to ‘Scotland’, as has clearly happened, the Government has taken leave of its political senses and begun to act from the emotional core of the Tory Party. Meaning, that since the ‘Jocks’ are getting above themselves by sending 56 SNP MP’s to Westminster, they must therefore be treated like unruly children, by ignoring them. Punishment will come later.

      Yet another sign is that the UK under the Tories is moving away from the Rule of Law, to a position whereby the Law will still apply to most of the population, but politicians and anyone they choose, will be exempt, and particularly in the matter of lying and ignoring the rules. This change of stance is there for all to see in the Carmichael case, but also, and even more clearly, in the conduct of the Government during Purdah at the Independence Referendum in 2014.

      But perhaps the biggest sign we see is that the Government has decided to change reality into ‘Tory reality’, whereby what is real and true is only what the Tories say is real and true. As a result , the whole country virtually, is in a state of cognitive dissonance. We know what is true, but no one is allowed to move forward on that basis, due to the Government saying something else. This is notably the case with the Vow fiasco. What the Tory Government says about how it is fulfilling the Vow, bears no relation whatsoever to what was promised in the days leading to the Referendum on the 18th of September 2014.

      In addition, all the sweet talk by the Government prior to the Referendum, has completely disappeared, to be replaced with hostility, spite and contempt. While Scotland’s wealth continues to flow unabated to Westminster with hardly a word of acknowledgement, as if in fact it wasn’t happening. After all, in the Westminster version of reality, Scotland is poor, unable to pay its way, and dependent on England for handouts.

      And the latest sign is how this Government intends to treat the disadvantaged, like refugees, the disabled and others.

      The Tories simply don’t like what’s going on around them and, like spoiled children, their reaction is to destroy it rather than adjust to it. In the Tory mind, the British Empire is back. And Scotland has two million No votes to thank for that.

    209. seanair says:

      Robert Peffers
      Did you live in the Bonnington area of Leith? There was a an area just off Bonnigton Road which was known as the Khyber Pass because it was occupied by people from India (and other nationalities). As far as I know they were accepted by the people of Leith, who were used to people off the ships.

    210. manandboy says:

      MPs debated the remaining Commons stages of the European Union Referendum Bill in the House of Commons on Monday 7 September 2015. From Hansard, this detail:-

      Philip Davies: May I give the Minister an example of what I fear? What I envisage is if, two weeks before the date of the referendum, the leave campaign is 10 points ahead in the poll—I hope it will be further ahead, but for argument’s sake let us just say it will be 10 points ahead—I am not sure that the Minister’s amendment will deal with the prospect of the Government, the European Commission and the German Chancellor all in a mad panic, like the clumsy intervention in the Scottish vow, standing up and saying, “We hear what you are saying and if you vote to stay in we promise to address some of these issues.” Will the Minister give a commitment now that the Government will not engage in that kind of activity?

      Mr Lidington: What my hon. Friend describes would not be permitted under the amendment.

      A reminder of how, breaking Purdah rules, Westminster torpedoed Independence for Scotland.

    211. john king says:

      Great post manandboy
      hear hear or should I say clap clap?

    212. manandboy says:

      The VOW was just party politics, according to the Gov.

      Hansard Monday 7 2015

      Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP): To clarify a point the Minister made earlier, can he assure the House that under his proposals we will not, in the run-up to the referendum, see something like the vow that came out just before the Scottish independence referendum? Will he rule out that kind of thing?

      Mr Lidington (Minister for Europe): From memory, I think the vow was a commitment by party leaders acting in a party political capacity, so that is a completely different issue.

      In September 2014, no one told the Scottish Electorate that.

    213. Tackety Beets says:

      GMS @ Circa 7.50 Am

      A “Haley Miller” interview with Stuart MacDonald MP .

      Maybe it’s me ?

      This is a must listen for anyone who doubts or is unconvinced about the BBC relationship with the GVT.

      Maybe I just need to listen again , but do not listen if you take blood pressure peels .
      I can’t help feel Stuart was taken aback by the tone.

    214. Sinky says:

      Another day of BBC royalist sycophancy with references back to the Battle of Hastings.

      Outside North Korea, Queen Elizabeth 11 of England is the only Head of State in the World whose portrait is on every stamp and lauded by the country’s National Anthem.

      The estimated total annual cost of the monarchy is £334m, around eight times the official figure published by the royal household

      P.S. A former professional footballer told me that the first time he saw a portrait of the Queen was when he as a young apprentice was sent to the Ibrox home dressing room with the team lines.

    215. Nana Smith says:

      and a few more…

      Only 10 weeks to save democracy from shameful Tory bid to rig the voting system

      Threatened With A Benefit Sanction For Going To Hospital? Now It’s Government Policy

    216. Janet says:

      Back on top form with this one Rev!

      Out of interest, if the BBC, biased though it is, we’re to disappear, what would replace it? Hang on, we’d get Fox News, like they have in America!

      From bad to worse!

    217. Brian Powell says:

      On visits by ‘ruling monarchs’; when the Victoria Arch was opened in Dundee to mark the 60th year of Victoria’s reign, she attended to carry out the opening ceremony and cut the ribbon.

      The City Council had purchased a long red carpet for her walk on to the podium. There was heavy rain and the carpet was ruined.

      The City Council sent a bill to the palace to replace the carpet.

      Victoria was so offended said she would never come back to Dundee.

      If only there were folks so bold as the Councillors of Dundee around today!

    218. garles says:

      Extract from total politics
      The war between Labour and Conservative on the economy was won fair and square by Mr Osborne and Mr Cameron on May 7. No serious politician in England thinks Britain can carry on borrowing and spending. Voters made it crystal clear on Polling Day that they, too, agree with the Conservative view of economics. You just can’t trust Labour with money.

      Surrendering our seat on the United Nations Security Council, dismantling our nuclear weapons, effectively axing our Armed Forces would have even greater consequences, the PM and Chancellor believe.

      Britain doesn’t just face the appalling and enormous threat of terrorism at home and abroad. The world remains an extremely hazardous place with tyrants everywhere getting close to weapons of mass destruction.

      Now is not the time to send a signal that we are a weak, poorly-led country heading in the wrong direction, they say. And the election of a man who has never taken a decision in his political life as a potential successor to Winston Churchill cannot be allowed to lower our stock.

      More like tital bollocks

    219. garles says:


    220. chitterinlicht says:

      That is quite simply pathetic journlism or deliberate but sadly not unexpected.

    221. Ken500 says:

      England is carrying on borrowing and spending. The deficit has gone down but the debt has gone up, Total taxes raised in UK £466Bilion. Down from £600Billion a year in 2010. Total taxes raised in Scotland £54Billion. Scotland gets £50Billion? Back.

      Take £54Billion (Scotland 1/12 of UK pop) away from £466Billion = £412Billion divide by 11 = £39Billion. Pro rata Scotland raises £54Billion. The rest of the UK (pro rata) raises £39Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £90Billion more. Scotland has to pay off the debt. Scotland would be £10Billion better off Independent. Save £4Billion on debt repayment. Cut Trident, a tax on ‘loss leading drink. Grow the economy.

      The Tories have destroyed the Oil industry. Taxed 55%. There would be no job losses if the tax was cut.

    222. Ken500 says:

      The ‘terrorist plots? were ‘planned’ for VE day and the 4th of July. The drone attacks were on 21st July.

    223. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Call Kaye/Louise right now is brilliant – the queen is great because she openly supports God in the face of pagans, heathens, atheists and nationalists.

      So there! 🙂

    224. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      An Anglican God?

    225. R-type Grunt says:


      You’d get whatever you paid for. I don’t pay for Pravda, be it Russian, British or American.

    226. Tinto Chiel says:

      Manandboy, 0730.

      A nice piece of analysis of the present position. Of course, Westminster and the BBC can try to airbrush us out, but it’s getting so obvious now even some No voters can see it. Most Scots don’t think our wonderfully impartial broadcaster provides a good service and this can only get worse. If/when IndyRef2 begins we will see propaganda and bullying on an undreamt of scale. Firm, well-explained positions on currency, a central bank and the safety of pensions will be required, IMO. Of course, getting the message across using MSM and BBC is the problem.

      I’m afraid the English public school system is rather good at producing emotionally-crippled social misfits who lack empathy, self-awareness and intelligence. All they have is their ready-made self-preservation network, called The Establishment. In a meritocracy they would struggle to hold down a job anywhere.

      However, they are spiteful, vindictive and, I am sure, becoming aware that we are slowly slipping out of their control. This makes them desperate and thus dangerous. I would put nothing past them, frankly.

      Soon be time for the tin helmets. Only metaphorical ones, I hope.

    227. Cadogan Enright says:

      I had the misfortune to listen to BBC TV news at 10 last night

      The so-called ‘political correspondent’ in Germany who looked like a corpse out of Zombie Apocalypse tuned to the dyed blonde plastic looking presenter back in London and said “The announcement by Germany that it can take 500,000 refugees per year for the next 5 years raises the question as to why Germany cannot take them all”. The plastic clone in studio HQ nodded sagely before moving onto the next story.

      Naturally I phoned the complaints line and pointed out that the obvious questions that was clearly raised by Merkal’s announcement would be more to do with Camerons announcement of 4000 a year that the talking heads in London had been discussing all day as if it was a significant statement – not a laughable nonsense.

      But the BBC talking heads had decided that refugee law was irrelevant in the face of opinion polls baking Cameron. The nice young man taking the complaint was clearly embarrassed, as they often are by the nonsense of the talking heads.

      This morning, Radio 4 was full of pretending concern that in a ‘new’ development UK citizens had been killed by the ‘intelligence’ services by a drone – without a trial etc etc – but the BBC talking heads decided that breaking the law here was OK as Cameron would have a majority of opinion in England in favour of this approach.

      I think I will have a coffee and calm down before phoning in a complaint to point out that the UK intelligence services have been killing UK citizens for years – as highlighted in the long-suppressed report by Lord Stephens – for instance murdering over 400 Catholic civilians in North Belfast to try and create a sectarian war and to ensure that Belfast did not become a Nationalist City (too late for that)

    228. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Brian Powell.

      “when the Victoria Arch was opened in Dundee to mark the 60th year of Victoria’s reign, she attended to carry out the opening ceremony and cut the ribbon.”

      Sounds a bit like an urban myth.

      The Royal Arch was erected in Dundee, Scotland, between 1849 and 1853 to commemorate a visit to the city by Queen Victoria and her husband, Prince Albert, in 1844.

      That’s from,

      And from,

      The Royal Arch, Dundee by J.T.Rochead, architect, of Glasgow, who won competition to design. Built 1849-52 to celebrate a visit of Queen Victoria to the city.

    229. heedtracker says:

      Me a confused subject of her longest ever royal majesty and the BBC, so from this railway’s a load of shite, BBC vote SLab Scotland tv news Monday stuff like this

      The decision to build the new Borders railway has been described as “insane” by the Institute of Economic Affairs.
      The think tank said the project was “exceedingly poor value for money”.


      Everything must need some royals pixie dust to make it BBC right. It’ll be a load of rubbish railway tomorrow.

    230. Robert Peffers says:

      @seanair says: 9 September, 2015 at 7:43 am:

      “Did you live in the Bonnington area of Leith?”

      I lived further west of Bonnington at what was to become Muirhouse. It was just a collection of prefabs in the middle of nowhere.

      “There was a an area just off Bonnigton Road which was known as the Khyber Pass because it was occupied by people from India (and other nationalities).”

      There was always areas of Edinburgh that had collections of immigrants, There was a, “Little Italy”, a, “Little China”, and the better known, “Little France”.

      “As far as I know they were accepted by the people of Leith, who were used to people off the ships.”

      Edinburgh has always been a cosmopolitan city. In the main, while there were areas of certain immigrants, the immigrants were never really ghettoised. This was particularly so in Leith. Remember though that Leith was a separate town from Edinburgh until 1920.

    231. ronnie anderson says:

      Bettys coaches getting pulled along by the Spirit of Africa, doesent she know we have a Spirit Of Independence.

      Start up the Fire Engine Chris , gie Betty a wee tour of her deminishing realm.

    232. Papadox says:

      As has been admitted and enshrined in law: a politician telling lies to the voters is acceptable practice providing he doesn’t do it in a personal way. Political lies to the cabbages is acceptable! (Legal).?

      Telling lies of a personal nature about the lying politicians is a bad show and will not be tolerated. (Illegal)

      That is the foundation of this wonderful mother of parliaments. What a con trick and this has been going on since time immemorial.

    233. Colin Church says:

      @Ronnie Anderson

      Unfortunately called the “Union of South Africa”, the “Better Together of the Empire” was unavailable for the trip.

      Prof Tomkins devastated.

    234. Nana Smith says:

      Betty’s visit to her colony today. Ooh I remember her annus horriblis, family members divorcing etc. I think her annus horriblis is yet to come about.

      This is a woman whose family appears to have the most disreputable pals, Saville and Bishop Peter Ball serial child abuser, great friends of Charlie and Epstein friend of Andy and goodness only knows how many others lurking in the palace cupboards.

      She certainly likes to give out gongs to the most hideous people in society but then again maybe its services to secrecy they get the medals for.
      Turning a blind eye is an art form in some circles.

      Anyone know if planning permission is required for erecting a guillotine.

    235. joseph simpson says:

      Ooops -soz my bad. Cut and paste error. I humbly apologise
      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      8 September, 2015 at 12:43 pm
      “So what can we take from this?”

      Well, what YOU can take from it is that if you post a comment that long with no paragraph breaks in it again I’m going to smash your face in with a mallet.

    236. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Colin Church ok wrong Engine Union Of South Africa,remind me how that SA union worked in Bettys reign,it certainly Rained on her parade.

    237. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      An Anglican god?

      Mais, naturellement, and an Eastender to boot. (No jokes about Pearly Queens please…)

      I imagine God to be slightly smaller than Prince ‘Shoot The Fuckers’ Phillip, and he looks like Charlton Heston but sounds like Mad Frankie Fraser.

      Gertcha!! 🙂

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      My brother has dinned with Mr. Fraser (to you sonny), no shit. Well, OK. A bit of bull. Crowded eatery, shared tables and a bit of banter.

      It’s a funny old world.

    239. Midgehunter says:

      Nana Smith says:

      “Anyone know if planning permission is required for erecting a guillotine.”

      Funny you should say that.

      I’ve been thinking for a while now that the social and political situation in the UK is starting (in a modern context)to resemble France in 1789.

      The people being used as voter fodder and otherwise as something to plunder.

      An “elite” who consider that they have a god given right to lead the country and who “regulate” who may join their establishment.

      Who knows, maybe the sale of knitting patterns could soon popular round the country. 🙂

    240. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I agree with what you say and made the same point elsewhere. The oil revenues disappear into Westminsters revenue coffers and become part of the general accounting.

      However, if Westminster revenues drop £8 billion, whatever the source, then without extra borrowing there’s in theory £8 billion less for the UK as a whole to spend, and proportionately at 8.4%, Scotland’s block grant (or Barnett consequentials) would drop by roughly £0.7 billion, while the rUK’s would drop by £7.3 billion.

    241. David McDowell says:


      So what’s your point?

    242. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Janet 8.29

      without the overwhelming domination of the media by the BBC funded by the taxpayer, there would be more room for new media voices using newer forms of technology that could also frustrate the corporate takeover of the printed media.

      The BBC is now proposing ’embedding’ their journalists in local papers. Most of these papers in any event have been taken over by one of a small number of corporations.

      It gives a model of media control that any dictatorship would be glad to copy – ally that to opposition to Human Rights been seen as a legitimate political objective by UK parties – and you have the apparatus of a police state writ large.

    243. Will Podmore says:

      The SNP’s ‘double majority’ amendment is not remotely democratic. It proposes that Scotland (or Wales or Northern Ireland) should be able to veto a majority vote in an EU referendum. (But only to veto a vote to leave. It doesn’t want anyone to veto a vote to stay in.)
      In a democracy, no part of the whole has the right to overrule the whole. No minority has the right to veto a majority decision.
      Democrats believe in majority rule; the SNP believes in minority rule. The whole British people have the right to decide the major constitutional question national independence, whether we are to be in the EU or not.
      A March 2015 survey by a team from Edinburgh University found that people across Britain oppose the SNP call for multiple vetoes on ‘Brexit’. Clear majorities in England (68 per cent), Northern Ireland (60 per cent), Wales (64 per cent) and Scotland (55 per cent) believed that an overall majority of the votes cast across Britain as a whole should decide whether we leave the EU. That is, an overall two-thirds majority back a single, all-Britain vote, with no minority vetoes.

    244. Andrew McLean says:

      Will Podmore,

      there are 4 parts to the Kingdom, by your logic the biggest wins all the time, why is that democratic, though I accept your point about voting to stay in as a mater of principal.

    245. Andrew McLean says:

      Will Podmore

      Actually thinking about it some more, if the UK vote to leave, which they won’t they’re not that stupid, then we will have to vote to leave the UK, if we do not then we are truly stuffed.
      the Italians and the French will tax our whisky, and the french want the financial market in london to themselves,we will be left with tourism and oil.

    246. manandboy says:

      The EU has 26 member states of different sizes, but they each have a single vote. That’s how it should be in the UK on any EU issue. In my view, the member states in the UK ought each to have one vote.
      If EU voting was weighted by population, the EU wouldn’t exist. Funny how the UK Establishment always do things different and always and only ever in a way that keeps them in power.
      But not for much longer.

    247. shiregirl says:

      Completely ot here (sorry), but has anyone noticed – Reyaad Khan the alleged jihadist fighter killed by drones the other day….the same guy was said to have been killed back in a drone attack back in July. I remember it being reported.

      Is this some odd mistake – someone with the same name? I am sure this was reported back in July.

      How can someone be killed by a drone twice by the bbc….

    248. Will Podmore says:

      Andrew, no. In the referendum, it would be possible for a majority of English people to vote one way and for them to be outvoted by people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It’s the total vote that counts.
      Majority rule = democracy.
      The SNP proposal of giving Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland a veto each would allow a minority to overrule the votes of the majority. Not democratic.
      It’s not stupid to vote to leave the EU. See ‘Change, or Go’, published by Business for Britain, which shows how Britain could thrive outside the EU.
      manandboy writes of ‘the member states in the UK’. No, there is one state. The proposal for a separate Scottish state was defeated by the majority vote of the people asked.

    249. K1 says:

      Shiregirl, the same way someone fitting the exact same description, placing the exact same bets in exactly the same manner one whole year apart…can be reported as ‘news’. Ye can be forgiven for being suspicious of anything reported in the msm, they are all at it continually:

    250. yesindyref2 says:

      @David McDowell: “So what’s your point?”

      Umm, without any point of reference, I’m forced to reply:

      “The points are frozen, the beast is dead”.

    251. K1 says:

      Aye well Will tell ye what, you go look at all the evidence that supported the proposition from Nobel Laureates et al, which showed how Scotland could thrive ‘outside’ the UK.

      The proposal for a “Scottish state” was defeated by ill means, and you know it. It was a fraudulent ‘campaign’ from top to bottom including the ‘Vow’ which is well recognised for what it was, a pile of steaming crap aimed at pulling back that Yes lead.

      As current polls now show, the Yes proposition is gaining ground, so much for the ‘majority vote” having any lasting veracity. Stop using it as some sort of ‘absolute’ and ‘fixed’ reference point in your arguments, it doesn’t cut it.

      Nicola Sturgeon is correct to assert that we as a Country, have a say in whether we are dragged out by the other Country with the greater numbers, it’s simply not an ‘equal’ partnership across the UK in this respect. Even the Tories know that, why do you think they keep harping on about the ‘family of nations’ that make up the UK?

      What you are saying is that if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland’s combined numbers voted to stay, and England’s numbers voted to leave, then those smaller nation’s numbers should be ignored?

      That is a complete recipe for disaster in this so called ‘unified’ state.

      The SNP are the alternative voice in the UK parliament, and they have to pursue by all means possible an agenda of ‘fairness’ in dealing with the Tories. That includes issues related to the EU referendum and the 4 nations having a voice within that as separate Countries. You can be sure there will be many viewing this from inside the establishment who see the ‘argument’ has some merit.

      We do have a different outlook here in Scotland, we have never voted for Tory governments in the modern era. We did not vote for them on 7th May, and still we are at the mercy of their ‘nasty’ agenda. Which is only mitigated by having a strong united government in place in Scotland, who actually do care about the people, at heart.

      The benefits to staying in the EU, notwithstanding all the issues and problems with that ‘body’ still outweigh the ramifications of leaving the EU. Where we may find ourselves without European assistance in terms of the human rights laws. More saliently we may find our UK government turning ever more ‘rightwards’ in their zealous shutting out of anything perceived as ‘foreign’. A continuing of the demonisation of ‘immigrants’, and further draconian schemes to rob people of their social security.

      The SNP may not succeed in achieving their aims, but they will succeed in shinning a light on this lack of parity between these nations, and the costs in terms of human suffering that this unequal disunited kingdom is directly responsible for.

      One more thing Will, it’s the will of the people in Scotland to have the SNP be their voice in Westminster, they were voted for based on the ‘Majority’ of votes each MP gained at the GE. Doesn’t seem to count for much though does it?

      So much for the ‘principle’ of democracy!

    252. Andrew McLean says:

      Will Podmore
      Still reading but makes some sweeping suggestions,like the comments like the rest of the EU will continue to trade favorably with the UK, no backlash, really? during our referendum we were told to expect the worst, and a quick look at the graph on EU trade versus the rest of the world, puts the percentage drop in sales down to “the long-term decline in the relative
      global importance of the EU economy” but i will look at the actual export in value, as I suspect the drop is due to the change in the UK economy in the late 80s from manufacturing to a home based service economy.

      and finally what’s this special relationship we would have with the USA, i think England would quickly find out how Scotland feels with a overpowering partner calling the shots.

      but still reading!

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      Will Podmore
      So what you are telling us is that George Orwell was wrong and truth can only be found in materialism (a ploy to kill God and justify attempting communism in an individual state – Marx only thought this possible in his dotage)?

      What is you opinion informed by Will? Old theory or physical reality?

      Gonna tell us if Frank Podmore is your ancestor?

    254. Rock says:

      David McDowell,

      “Rock – the only problem is, just 11 days ago Nicola Sturgeon said: “I am not saying there was institutional bias in the BBC’s referendum output.” (The National, August 28th)”

      Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are making a big mistake in not openly attacking the BBC.

      The same mistake that was made by Blair Jenkins.

      At least half of Scotland knows that the BBC is rabidly biased against the SNP, independence and Scotland.

      The BBC is Scotland’s enemy number 1.

      We will never get independence as long as it exists in Scotland.

      It is time to fight to destroy it once and for all.

    255. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps the SNP do not feel the time is right to take on the BBC?

      Sometimes I’m not sure if folk understand the significance of controlling a national broadcast network. Ask yourself, what is one of the first facilities an invading force will seek to control, when occupying a foreign nation?


    256. Will Podmore says:

      K1 writes, “What you are saying is that if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland’s combined numbers voted to stay, and England’s numbers voted to leave, then those smaller nation’s numbers should be ignored?”
      In a vote, the side that gets the smaller number of vote loses, the side that gets the larger number of votes loses. It’s not a question of the minority being ignored, but of the minority not getting its way. Same as with the referendum.
      The SNP indeed won most seats in Scotland, but that is still a minority in Britain.
      When we leave the EU, the EU will still be bound by WTO rules, so it won’t be allowed to discriminate against us.
      Cameron, materialism is indeed the philosophy that seeks truth about the material world. As Jerry Coyne pointed out in his excellent new book ‘Faith vs Fact’, “Science has learned through experience that assuming the existence of gods and divine intervention has been of no value in helping us understand the universe. This has led to the working assumption – some might call it a ‘philosophy’ – that supernatural beings can be provisionally seen as non-existent.”
      So, “the absence of evidence – if evidence should be there – is indeed evidence of absence.” There is no more evidence for the existence of any god than for the existence of the Loch Ness monster or of a fairy at the bottom of my garden.
      And no, as far as I know, Frank Podmore, co-founder of the Fabian Society, biographer of Robert Owen and noted spiritualist, was no ancestor of mine!

    257. Cod says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      I was surprised to see you commenting blt

      Why, pray tell? I’m afraid your comment has left me rather bemused as to it’s purpose.

      ..England is the only Head of State in the World whose portrait is on every stamp and lauded by the country’s National Anthem

      Not so. This is one of those oft repeated pieces of information which is simply inaccurate. It’s inaccurate because neither England, nor the United Kingdom, have a national anthem. In fact, Scotland doesn’t either. Both England and Scotland have tunes which are commonly played in place of a national anthem, and the dirgelike “God Save The Queen” is usually used as a United Kingdom national anthem. The fact remains, however, that none of these tunes are actually a national anthem of any country.

      And “God Save The Queen” is probably the largest cause of channel switching / mute button hitting in Scotland. Quite rightly.

      Lastly, to the idiot commenting on Asians and Edinburgh High Street – that’s much the same argument used by racist arseholes when talking about Pakistani families running local Spar shops. Never mentioned, of course, is the fact that the majority of those non-Scottish Scots work hard, and contribute much to the fabric of Scotland. Quite frankly, I’d rather have any number of those imports to Scotland than one racist arsehole like the person making the comments.

      What makes the owners of those shops Scottish is that they live in Scotland, they contribute to Scotland, they vote in Scotland. Our nationalism is inclusive, not divisive blut und boden. Most of us like it like that.

    258. K1 says:

      Ah Will, still won’t address the 4 nations part? You really do seem to believe in this notion of one whole state wherein all that counts are the numbers. Like little dots that can be counted and the ‘side’ that has the most dots wins.

      I rather think I was making a few more pointed observations about the nature of democracy, which of course you just ignored or dismissed as irrelevant to your point.

      There is a ‘democratic deficit’ that has to be taken into account in all of this Will. People have legitimate grievances with regard to ‘representation’ across these Isles. The ‘sides’ that are currently at the top of the political hierarchy do not represent the views of many of those ‘numbers’ that they claim to represent. One of the indicators of that fact in this country, is that we do not vote for the Tories, and we have just removed a layer of Labourites from political office.

      In particular the SNP in this Nation represent many of those alternative ‘numbers’ of voters. They choose a different ‘side’. Their representatives are currently embedded within the so called ‘UK’ parliament. And still they are marginalised, mirroring the status of the Nation they represent within this ‘family of nations’.

      The tide is rising in support of the Yes proposition in this country. Which indicates a growing demograph of what you call a ‘minority’, but only because you choose to use one measurement, that of ‘size’. And do not address the core reason at the heart of that minorities concerns.

      Calling us a ‘minority’ and in effect placing your argument within such a limited context of numbers, goes to the heart of my point:

      The ‘numbers’ who are deciding the outcome of the ‘direction of political travel’ on these isles are those numbers from the much larger nation. Therefore their views and their outlook are mistakenly perceived as a ‘majority’ ‘view’. Subsequently ‘othering’ those whose views do not align with that ‘majority’s’ outlook.

      You can see the conflation here. We, here in Scotland, do not align our ‘outlook’ with those whose ‘numbers’ constantly decide the outcome of the ‘direction of political travel’ on these Isles.

      Being a ‘minority’ on numbers alone, does not diminish or invalidate the ‘outlook’ of those of us who choose not to align with the current duopoly on these Isles. The more apparent this becomes the more people, not ‘numbers’ will support the ‘majority’ view that it is time to sever our political ‘union’ with rUK.

      You can dislike this all you want and rest on your laurels and regard all of this as a ‘numbers’ game Will. By doing so you reveal a ‘bureaucratic’ mindset not fluent in the nuances of what is actually taking place on these Isles.

    259. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hi, sorry if I was a bit confusing. I still need glasses and misread your name as starting with a “G”. I was simply taken aback by your presence among us mortals. 🙂

    260. David McDowell says:


      “Umm, without any point of reference, I’m forced to reply:
      ‘The points are frozen, the beast is dead’.”

      The “point of reference” was obviously your response to me at 11.51pm on this forum. Since there is no obvious point in that response, all I can do is try to clarify what point you are trying to make.

    261. CameronB Brodie says:

      Will Podmore
      I am a man of little faith in anything and certainly place no credence in the supernatural. However, I also accept that our knowledge and understanding of ourselves and the world, is incomplete. You could call me a post-modernist informed by Essentialism and Semionics.

      Thanks for clearing up the Frank question. Can I ask you how the British Communist Party is responding to the hugely influential scientific field of environmental psychology? Indeed, how does your political philosophy cater for cultural diversity?

    262. CameronB Brodie says:

      Or a humanitarian anti-humanist. 😉

    263. Cod says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Ah, ok, that makes sense. Although, given I’m an avowed atheist, if I were posting as God I’d have to immediately not believe in myself. Which could prove to be a little awkward. Indeed, it might make Descarte’s little problem of self-existence proof seem rather minor!

    264. CameronB Brodie says:

      Semiotics even. 😉

    265. CameronB Brodie says:


    266. CameornB Brodie says:

      I used to consider myself a materialist until my ‘faith’ evolved, in light of new knowledge and understanding.

    267. Will Podmore says:

      K1, when it comes to the question of whether we stay in the EU or not, there are two different approaches.
      The democratic approach is that the majority of those who are asked the question should decide the matter. We are still in one state, like it or not, and the question will be posed to every one of us eligible to vote.
      The SNP for a long time opposed having a referendum on the EU. Its manifesto said, “we will oppose a referendum on membership of the EU.” So much for their claim to support the will of the Scottish people: they don’t want the Scottish people to have a say, they don’t even want to know what the Scottish people want.
      The SNP told us we had no right to a vote, now they turn round and tell us how to vote. They had no right to deny us a vote. They have no right to tell us how to vote in the referendum they fought to deny us.
      Now the SNP insists that any minority, in either Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland, should be able to veto the decision of the majority. (But only if that majority votes against the way the SNP wants – it’s not proposing that a minority could veto a decision to stay in the EU.)
      Again, it privileges a minority over the majority.
      The SNP approach is that a majority of those asked should be defeated by a minority.
      Did you, in consistency, allow that a pro-Union majority in say Edinburgh should be allowed to veto an overall Scottish vote to break away? I didn’t think so.

    268. Will Podmore says:

      K1, when it comes to the referendum on leaving the EU, there are two different approaches.
      One approach is that everyone eligible to vote will be asked to decide and the side with most votes will get its way.
      The SNP approach is that a minority vote in say Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland should overrule the majority vote.
      If a minority in say Edinburgh had voted for union against an overall Scottish majority for breaking away, would you have allowed that minority to veto the wishes of the majority?
      In this referendum, there are not ‘4 nations’ voting, as would have been the case had the secessionists won the referendum. There is one people voting and in our democracy, we respect the rights of the majority. Minorities do not overrule majorities.

    269. Scott says:

      The article has since been changed to include mention of the SNP.

    270. Fred says:

      Podmore showing his true colours as a little Englander & imperialist at heart. A majority to take Scotland out of Europe against its will Will, will (three wills) trigger another Scottish referendum, so excellent. What is it with all this enthusiasm for bourgeoise democracy anyhow, whatever happened to the “dictatorship of the proletariat” & the firing squad? The tide went out on Scottish communism with the death of John Maclean. Willie Gallacher swallowed the GB variety but still supported home rule in Scotland. Tens of thousands lined the streets at Gallacher’s funeral in 1965, you would be lucky to fill a telephone box now. They’re on the endangered species list and the pair of die-hards I encountered at the anti-Trident demo were all for independence. You’re the most insular & right wing communist I’ve ever encountered and wouldn’t be a bit surprised if you were fagging at a minor public school when Fred here was chapping doors for the party. Communist my arse!

    271. michael diamond says:

      Good post fred 4.41. Tell it like it is.

    272. yesindyref2 says:

      @David McDowell
      Ah! Good point.

    273. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: Minorities do not overrule majorities.

      By what percentage of the vote did the Tories win power at the last election? 34%?

      And you claim a minority cannot rule the majority?

    274. Fred says:

      An old story GB, Mensheviks n Bolsheviks. Off to the hills!

    275. Will Podmore says:

      Grouse Beater is I’m sure aware that votes to be counted have to be cast. A majority of those who voted in enough constituencies voted – unfortunately – for the Conservative Party.
      Fred, I am for Britain, as a united country, which doesn’t make me a little Englander. A little Englander would surely support separating Scotland and Wales away, to leave England on its own.
      I have opposed imperialism consistently for more than 40 years.
      Fred’s ritual sneers against communism don’t sound very progressive.

    276. Andrew McLean says:

      will podmore at 3.39am
      “If a minority in say Edinburgh had voted for union against an overall Scottish majority for breaking away, would you have allowed that minority to veto the wishes of the majority?”
      Now you are either thick, which i doubt very much, or you are a hermit living in a cave, again I doubt very much, or you are being deliberately obtuse!
      Your lack of understanding the political reality of devolution is breathtaking, we are separating, slowly I will give you, but it’s over.
      As for the communist, I used to be the local organizer for the YCL in my youth, and still wonder why old communist party members became Lords, or perhaps not?
      I do remember when I was doing my basic training, being briefed by an fat intelligence officer, cant remember the story well, but it was something about the Morning Star, East Germany and a policeman pestering a man sitting alone on a bench in a london park till he got up and left, a lad sitting next to me said “probably a poof” one of the staff said “something to say Mclean?” I said is it not true the biggest ("Tractor" - Ed)s were upper class toffs? the reply was no it’s socialists you wouldn’t believe how we are involved in politics in britain!
      for my cheek, I had to escort him off base, I asked by way of conversation how we were involved? he said socialists are so bloody lazy we have to run the organisation for them sometimes!

      Probably just a lot of shit, but I have often wondered?

    277. Will Podmore says:

      Andrew, I read your reply with bated breath, waiting for your killer fact to answer my question and refute my argument … still waiting.
      So by your unwarranted generalisation’s logic, you must as a CP member have become a Lord?
      I’m an old communist party member and am not a Lord.
      Still. never mind the truth, just come out with the smear.
      And yes of course MI5 infiltrated the CPGB, that’s their job. They infiltrate all political parties.

    278. Andrew McLean says:

      Hi Will
      regarding the report, sorry still reading!
      as for smear? to which part, communist or Lord? I for one would rather go for a pint with a communist than a Lord! And it’s hardly a generalisation regarding the hierarchy of Scottish Labour, Reid, Darling, Murphey all good communists?
      And as for arguing, no such intent, not on my part anyway!

    279. Will Podmore says:

      Andrew, you wrote “still wonder why old communist party members became Lords” perhaps ‘some’ ex-CPers would have been better.
      Yes, Darling, Reid, Murphy are ghastly sell-outs – it doesn’t say much for the CPGB’s Marxist education.

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