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The Great Work’n’Dole Swindle

Posted on July 09, 2015 by

As this site is somewhat on the left of the political spectrum, it’d be all too easy to attack yesterday’s Budget based on its interpretation by what still passes for the UK’s left-wing media. So instead let’s look at it through the eyes of the Daily Mail, which is putting, shall we say, quite a positive spin on it.


Fair-minded readers will concur, we trust, that the Mail’s English and Scottish editions are both portraying George Osborne’s first all-Tory budget in almost 20 years as being a good thing for the nation. But let’s take a look inside. Because when it’s finished with the spin, even the Mail can’t disguise that what happened yesterday was the biggest robbery of the British people in a lifetime.


Above is the Mail’s at-a-glance graph of the winners and losers from the budget, and eagle-eyed viewers will have immediately spotted the sting in the tail. Although the paper portrays five out of six groups as being better off, even the Mail notes that their gains are funded by an eye-watering assault on the poor.

The five “winner” groups make a total net gain of £890, which is paid for by slashing a monstrous £2,094 from a low-income working family. Keen students of arithmetic will notice that that makes the population overall (as seen by the Mail) worse off by £1,204 a household per year – money Osborne has earmarked to cut inheritance tax for millionaires, increase military spending and reduce corporation tax.

But on a closer inspection it’s even worse than it looks, because in order to depict most people as winners the Mail has made some pretty heroic assumptions. Let’s take them in turn.


The Mail identifies a young single person on £20,000 a year as its benchmark. It doesn’t specify what “young” is, but the new “National Living Wage” doesn’t apply to anyone under 25.

The most recent UK government figures available for average income by age are for 2012-13, and identify the median income for working people in the 20-24 age group as not £20,000 but £14,500.

With a lower minimum wage, no entitlement to housing benefit for anyone under 22 and the savage cuts to tax credits, even that feeble £90 gain per year looks a highly optimistic assessment.


The Mail assumes a family with two children and two working parents will have a joint income of £60,000. The UK average salary is in fact £26,500, making a fairer assessment £53,000.

This entry curiously talks about the higher-rate 40p tax threshold increasing to £50,000 when in fact it’s going to be £43,000 after Osborne’s changes take effect (it’s not due to reach £50K until 2021), so the Mail’s figures here must be treated with extreme suspicion.

A real-life family will be earning less and paying more tax on it than the Mail has assumed, which will wipe out that £180 and then some.

In fact, paying the extra 20% of tax on £7000 more of their income than the Mail claims will cost this family £1,400. The Mail also conveniently gives them just two children – a family with more will lose a significant sum from the new limit on child tax credit – and ignores the possibility that they live in social housing, which could see their rent rocket.


The graphic suggests a figure of £40,000 for a self-employed single parent with two children. We’re going to pause for a moment for the laughter to die down before we point out that in reality, the median annual income of a self-employed person is less than £10,800.

Huge numbers of people have been forced into poorly-paid self-employment by previous welfare reforms, but now the tax credits which topped up their income have been brutally slashed the idea of them being £173 better off is comical.


We’re struggling to see where the Mail finds an extra £241 a year even for the blessed couple with a household income of £100,000. It notes that they’ll lose out on pension contributions, tax relief and vehicle duty, and the only named compensations are the increase in tax thresholds.

But the 40p threshold is only increasing by £615. Assuming that affects both partners, that’s £1,230 less income being taxed at the extra 20%, a saving of £246, with another £160 gained from the increased personal allowance.

We must therefore assume that all the negative effects will only add up to £165 a year. But the Mail specifically suggests that the couple will buy cars priced at over £40,000 and those will attract a £310 premium every year over and above the usual excise duty, for five years. So on the paper’s stated criteria, even these people are going to be slightly worse off.


“Total pension income of £50,000”. Ahahahaha. The same UK government figures for average income by age group we cited above suggest that the median pensioner income is around £18,000 per person, giving a couple £36,000, almost a third less than the Mail suggests.

The Mail’s analysis is quite bizarre – it suggests the average pensioner couple is making money from a buy-to-let home but also renting out a room in their own house to a lodger, and it factors in the cut in inheritance tax even though that will usually benefit the couple’s children rather than them.

Nevertheless, with a pension triple-lock and increased tax allowances, and no real downsides, the relatively wealthy (and coincidentally Conservative-voting) elderly look like the best bet to actually gain something from Osborne’s budget.


Even in predicting a savage, catastrophic loss of over £2000 for a family already barely making ends meet, the Mail sugars the pill. The calculation assumes an income of £20,000 a year, which for many families is an optimistic figure even when tax credits are included.

Unemployed, ill and disabled people, meanwhile, simply don’t exist in the Mail’s world, and those will suffer hideously from the four-year freeze in working-age benefits, brutal cuts to Employment Support Allowance and more.

In short, then, the Daily Mail is looking at the Budget through several pairs of heavily rose-tinted spectacles at once, and even then paints a picture of an assault on living standards which hits almost everyone below pension age in Britain.

Even on the Mail’s glass-half-full analysis it’s a redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich on an almost unprecedented scale, and because the paper has carefully excluded most of the people who’ll be hit the hardest the reality is even worse.

(The Mail seems to have ignored the notion that any of its sample workers could be in the public sector, for example, and are therefore limited to 1% pay rises for four years, unless they’re MPs. Labour have already backed the freeze.)

Whether you work or whether you’re on benefits, or if you’re both, you’re going to get it in the neck so that the children of the rich can avoid paying a windfall tax on their inheritance, so that the UK can strut around on the world stage with more aircraft carriers, so that big businesses can pay even less tax (in the farcical hope that they’ll voluntarily pass these benefits down to workers in higher pay) and so that the Tories can accumulate a warchest for a future cut in the top rate of tax for the wealthiest.

Good luck, Britain. Don’t lose your job or get sick.

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      The Great Work’n’Dole Swindle | Speymouth

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      The Great Work'n'Dole Swindle | Politics Scotla...

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    308 to “The Great Work’n’Dole Swindle”

    1. mogabee says:

      I just feel sick reading this.

      Tories need to buy friends and influence, and more champers.

      I feel for those who will really suffer and can see no way out.

      I am not exaggerating when I say that providing soup kitchens or similar is being discussed to help out those attending food banks. 🙁

    2. Democracy Reborn says:

      ‘Pool’ from the poor, ‘share’ it with the rich.

      We’re Better Together.

    3. JPJ2 says:

      The Tories remain as ever the Nasty Party.

      Labour portray themselves as the not quite so absolutely Nasty Party.

      However, when you couple that with their legendary economic incompetence,you have a perfect recipe for an ongoing string of political defeats at UK General Elections.

    4. galamcennalath says:

      Seems to me all that this budget set out to do was reduce the deficit by dramatically reducing benefit spending. Everything else is just tinkering and spin.

      Why oh why did you do this to Scotland, NO voters?

      Hang your heads in shame, beg forgiveness, and redeem yourselves by speaking out saying you will vote Yes next time. This budget brought ‘next time’ another step closer.

    5. Juteman says:

      “median pensioner income is around £18,000 per person, giving a couple £36,000,”

      What is the Scottish figure, as I doubt many Scots pensioners are so well off?

    6. Fiona says:

      Slashing working benefits is a solution to quite a different problem, though. It means that Cameron can pretend he has won significant concessions from his “re-negotiation” with Europe.

      Free movement of labour entails ensuring that immigrant workers get the same benefits as domestic workers: and that is not something that the EU is likely to agree to change. Now, by simply abolishing those credits for all workers, the obstacle disappears.

    7. Sasha Callaghan says:

      I’m going to be £600 a year worse off which bearing in mind what some families are facing, is minimal. I had to give up my job 2 years ago to look after my disabled son and, wow, I’m paying the price for it financially. This latest attack is just one of many, the next being Edinburgh Council charging for transport to take my son to his resource centre. Now let me get back to watching Jeremy Kyle on my 60ft plasma TV. How’s that vow working out for you.

    8. donald anderson says:

      Cab’t get over the shameless cheek of HM Loyal Opposition shedding crocodile teas and feigned indignation in an effort to be pretending to be different. The lone Scots Labour MP gets more coverage than a lone SNP member would. Time to get shut of the lot of them. Referendum now!

    9. scottieDog says:

      The truth will come out in the form of deflation and an even bigger deficit – a la greece.

    10. heedtracker says:

      Tory boys love it. Here’s one that cooked up The VOW fraud and he says it’s all just the left ” empty grandstanding rhetoric”

      Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 12 hrs12 hours ago
      Great to see @PurvisTweed ripping into Ian Blackford MP’s empty grandstanding tax rhetoric on @BBCScot2015

      These are the good time for the tory boys. Next gen Snatcher Thatcher toryboy teamGB. Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    11. Donald MacKenzie says:

      A cruel and evil budget by a cruel and evil administration.

    12. Macart says:

      So this is the reality of ‘pooling and sharing’ is it?

      Just jaw dropping.

    13. maxi kerr says:

      Maybe now you can begin to understand why they took the guns from the populace.

    14. Chitterinlicht says:

      Shame shame shame

      Then again many are in fact #bettertogether

      Arithmetically I am too but there is much more to the society that I want to live and bring my family up in than a few sheckles.

      And the fact that your hard work and talent is trumped by someone’s great grandaddies hard work and talent is the exact opposite of an aspirational society.

      Generational structural inequality. Makes me sick.

      Anyone heard from JK Rowling Yet?

      I don’t actually get much comfort from voting yes.

      It’s history. Need to move on.

    15. Anagach says:

      The self employed is not better off. If they use dividends then their tax increase of 7.5% combined with a £5000 tax free allowance on a £40,000 will leave them £ 2,025 worse off. also not mentioned is the government drive to disallow travel costs for the self employed – which is another hard hit dependent upon the amount of travel in the work. The Daily Mail fails again.

    16. fred blogger says:

      absolutely excellent analysis, once again, rev.
      pay cut uk.
      incomes slashed in real terms, and when the principle of ‘not enough hrs’ or ‘income’ kicks in with UC god help us all.

    17. yerkitbreeks says:

      I’m a pensioner, so will probably be better off. This piece does the job in explaining why we are ( mostly ) Tory voters, and my frustration with my Aberdeen peers in particular for being so anti – Independence.

      Tory thinking doesn’t do support for anyone except the super vulnerable, and of course such support would have been on the cards for a bigger group had it been a YES.

      Having lived all my working life in southern England I constantly have this nagging belief that the reasons the riots of four years ago didn’t spread up here was that the population saw an administration at least making an attempt to offset the inequality so visible darn sarf. I foresee further unrest in due course.

    18. steveasaneilean says:

      This is a stunning piece of journalism Stu. Thank you so much for putting it together.

      Tories – of the rich, for the rich, by the rich.

      Welcome to UK PLC – the hedge fund nation

    19. Anagach says:

      Sorry for the £ 40,000 a year self employed that is only £ 1,800 a year worse off.

    20. indigo says:

      Fiona – that was my thought too, this is their get-out clause for EU negotiations not going well – new claimants will get very little indeed, disincentivising ‘benefit seeking immigrants’

      It’s wholly dishonest & incredibly cruel

    21. Luigi says:

      But, we were promised jam! 🙁

    22. Ukp42 says:

      @Luigi 11.27am
      Yes, we did, it’s full of glass & bits of wood, disguised as seeds.

    23. JCS says:

      Can anyone tell me when the first round of clearances start? I’d like to book some steerage with rats and roaches……incase the kids get hungry on the journey.

    24. ScottieDog says:

      @Sasha Callaghan
      Very sad to hear. What a nation we have become.

      The miseducation about the very essence of money is right up there with the flat earth ideologies of the Middle Ages.

      As Peter North says, money is a method of exchange, a measure of value. It allows goods and services to be exchanged. Saying there is not enough money is like saying there aren’t enough inches.

      Money has been distorted for so long Pete have forgotten what it is.

      I really hope Greece shows the way and creates and new post-default sovereign currency. One that can only be issued by the central bank – not commercial banks. This is our greatest problem.

    25. Luigi says:

      All the stuff the scaremongers threatened if we voted YES is now coming to pass.

      “But wait a minute……. Oooooh shit!”

    26. Jim Morris says:

      £18,000 income for a pensioner on minimum pension would need a nest egg of £300,000 earning 4% annually without any tax which of course kicks in at £11,000.

    27. Gary says:

      On the national average wage being £26,000…

      I’m not disputing the figure quoted, but it seems to me that that’s quite a warped figure. I’d be curious as to what the actual figure is if you exclude, for example, the top 10% of earners…I expect it’d be signficantly lower, based on experience and hours of trawling recruitement websites and seeing not very much in the way of jobs paying close to £26,000.

      It’s a disgusting state of affairs in any circumstances, but given the referendum it’s just plain sickening. If the likes of the Record want to maintain any credibility now and in the future, it’s about time they seriously started thinking about abandoning the sinking Union ship. We desperately need a radically different approach to governance, one that the Union has proved beyond any doubt (in the last few weeks alone, if nothing else) to be incapable of offering.

    28. David Wardrope says:

      Grim reading, but what an absolute first rate analysis this piece is. Printed off and left in the office cafeteria.

    29. Robert Louis says:

      It is now no longer a matter of choice, it is absolutely essential that Scotland becomes independent.

    30. geo says:

      The trickle up effect.

    31. The Moidart says:

      So the budget targets the poor and the young. A minimum wage of £6.50 for those under 25. No housing benefit for those under 22. Child tax credits to be limited to first two children only. No real prospects of finding a decent paying job with full time hours. A more cynical mind might suggest that these facts coupled with the Bill Gates vaccination programme in India and Africa which actually causes children to be ill and the fact that they’re poisoning the other half of the world with the water fluoridation and use of aspartame etc in food and drink, when not bombing children to death in the middle east …. It might be safe to suggest that the new world order depopulation programme is now moving into the UK. Good times ahead. Wetter together. They’re pissing all over us.

    32. handclapping says:

      Now look here, its all wrong. Doncha realise that we have to insure everything we own in case we lose it? The man Osborne has put up the tax on our premiums by 58.3% which not only is going to cost us more but also means the little people will drop out of insuring things and it will be people like us that end up bearing the losses. Now that’s what I call unfair.

    33. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The Daily Express I note has an even dafter front page of “Hurray, Pay rises for everybody” or something like that.

      What is actually happening here is that the Tories are using the economic crisis as an excuse to effect traditional Tory policy against the Welfare State.
      Anti Welfare is core Tory policy no matter how hard they try to conceal this. They will cut wherever they can

      To have the political power to do so they have to persuade a significant number of gullible people to support them. That’s where the media comes in.

      That’s why the alternative media we see growing in print and online is so very important. That’s why the National needs our support to allow it to increase its circulation and become a bigger, better and more varied newspaper that will challenge our present dreadful tabloids and start to take readership from them.
      At the moment it is talking mainly to the already converted

    34. Haivers says:


      As I’m sure you realise, to arrive at the overall impact you need weightings for the six groupings. Your average of -£1,204 per household makes the simplistic assumption that the number of people in each category is the same for all.

      I’m guessing that the low-income family group is a large one. (And then there’s the question of whether & how you should include the impact on ALL the members of the family.)

      The retired group is also large, of course. That’s where your detailed critique matters. The average pensioner couple is a buy-to-let landlord? Talk about fiddling the figures . . .

      The summary seems to be: £24.6bn of cuts & £47.2bn of rises, i.e. a net increase of £22.6bn. If the UK population is 64.6m, that’s an average increase of about £350 for every man, woman and child. Tough if you’re a couple with children and a single income. And, of course, the use of an average belies the true effect.

      (That’s all subject to the caveat that I’m not sure how those figures translate into annual impact.)

    35. ian says:

      Come on all you trolls justify this if you can!Now we all have to stand around and watch the rape of our country for the benefit of the few.Scotland being a low wage economy is going to be especially hard hit by this budget.

    36. scottieDog says:

      ‘Pete’ should read ‘we’.

    37. Nana Smith says:

      I’m well off compared to some and having worked and volunteered at charities I sympathise greatly with those affected. I have seen real deprivation and hopelessness and I really fear for future generations.

      My friend has worked tirelessly over the years making and delivering meals to the elderly as well as doing their shopping, taking them back and fore from doctor’s appointments and many other deeds.

      She tells me some of the ladies in her helpers group have had to stop due to their own straightened circumstances so again the knock on effect of government slash and burn takes it’s toll on the less fortunate.

      A government hell bent on destroying the fabric of society aided by the gutless press, I feel something has to give and perhaps that is what they are aiming for.

      I’m reminded of a verse from the song Ordinary man which says it better than I ever could. I’m afraid my own words would be censored.

      Here condemned I stand just an ordinary man, like thousands before me in the queue
      I watch my darlin’ wife, tryin’ to make the best of life
      God knows what the kids are goin’ to do
      now that we are faced, with this human waste
      a generation cast aside
      as long as I live, I never will forgive
      they’ve stripped me of my dignity and pride
      *they’ve stripped me bare, they’ve stripped me bare

    38. Great analysis.

      Superbly punned title too although I fear it may be lost on those not of a certain vintage. 🙂

    39. Bob Mack says:

      Absolutely shocking All the false concern about leaving debt to our children.
      Instead,we just deprive them in the present.Words fail me.

    40. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I was watching Ian Blackford debating the budget on a TV interview with Ian Murray and “Lord” Jeremy Purvis and he was doing well until he started getting shouted down on an entirely irrelevant argument about the cutting of Corporation Tax.

      I know it’s easy to be wise sitting at home watching the telly but at our peril we get involved in distractions about peripheral issues and don’t address the big picture.

      The big picture is that Scotland is trapped in a bust UK economy, paying a share of a huge debt that has little to do with us and sharing a huge UK deficit.

      Every SNP statement on economic matters should start with the fact that we are trapped in a bust UK economy and that any figures about a future Scotland that is put forward based on our present economic situation inside this bust economy is not relevant.
      We don’t want to be independent so we can go on doing the same mismanaging of our economy

    41. Anagach says:

      Gary says:
      9 July, 2015 at 11:32 am

      On the national average wage being £26,000…

      I assume that is the full time worker average. I note from government figures from 2012-13 that “mean income before tax ” was given as £29,600 but “median income before tax” was just £ 21,000 – source National Statistics survey of Survey of Personal Incomes 2015.

      So averages look high because a relatively small number of very high pay pulls it up. The worker in the middle of the population gets the median pay – £21,000.

    42. Macart says:

      @ Nana

      Good post Nana and well put.

    43. heedtracker says:

      Rich get richer and the poor get poorer in teamGB. Front page rancid The Graun,

      ‘Girls?’ Women’s minister Nicky Morgan objects to photographer’s greeting


      “Queen to throw birthday street party for 10,000 guests in London’s Mall
      Monarch’s 90th birthday to be celebrated with weekend of London events in June 2016 to honour her patronage of charities and organisations”

      Did we really vote to stay in a farce union to be ruled over by these… fill in the blanks?

    44. Les Wilson says:

      When the screws are applied like this, it normally means one thing in Scotland, migration. Something they would love.
      Less Scots, less trouble? Coincidence? You decide.

    45. Al-Stuart says:

      Osborne is a DISGUSTING creature. Bad for him is the FACT he has a reckoning to come with a £20 Billion to £200 Billion contingent liability for the deaths that his policies and those executed by his henchman, the odious Iain Duncan Smith have caused…

      My main hope is that once Osborne gets his P45 from politics – as they ALL do eventually – then there will be a civil recovery action against ALL of HIS personal assets under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. Plus the distinct possibility he will serve serious jail time like the MP Expenses cheats who thoght they were ABOVE THE LAW, but were still jailed for theft.

      Though with Osborne and Duncan Smith, their jail time will be for killing cripples. I use that term, as I too am a cripple – having been rendered physically disabled in the service of my country. Ironic.

    46. bookie from hell says:

      Time to cut BBC legs off

    47. Training Day says:

      Once again this article highlights by contrast the absolutely parlous state of mainstream ‘journalism’, where the fourth estate is largely composed of amanuenses, PR flunkeys and autocue automatons.

      Well done Rev.

    48. a supporter says:

      Very very good article Stu. Should be rquired reading for the NO-men and Labour. THIS is what they campaigned for. Hope they are satisfied.

    49. Stoker says:

      “The Great Work’n’Dole Swindle” – Brilliant title (and article).

      Thank’s a bunch UKOKers, hope you’re proud of yourselves!

    50. Dr Jim says:

      Where do I sign up to get to be one of those Tory pensioners
      so I can get one of these £40.000 cars that I would be able to afford
      I’m definitely doing something wrong
      Where’s my wealth gone man, maybe I left it in my Golf Club next to my Tennis Bats after over imbibing on Boli don’t you know

      I suppose I’ll find it later in my dinner jacket before I go out to dinner with the Osbornes

      I must have that memory loss thing

      What’s it called again? Alt, Alz, “Aldis” Damn!! That’s where I left my over stuffed wallet PHEW!!!

    51. David Cunningham says:

      Suck it up Scotland George cares not whether you voted YES or NO we are all one nation.

      I have luckily never been unemployed or on any kind of benefits and although in poor health am comparitively better off than most but this is an outrage and brutal for many in our society.

      But but… Look! Says Kaye, a living wage more than labour or the SNP were promising, what’s the problem.
      Ian Murray says Aye but what are the SNP going to do about it, they have the new powers to raise taxes and mitigate the cuts.

      Swinney talked sense but in politicians speak and used calm forensic words which will pass over the heads of many.

      I hope he or Sturgeon come out this weekend, after seeing the full affect that this will have on Scotland, and express our disgust and outrage.

      We are effectively at war with Westminster and can’t afford to lose.

    52. Haggis Hunter says:

      The LabServativeDems work for the bankers and investors.
      Everything else is just keech….to them

    53. James says:

      The voluntary propaganda wing of the government. These people are not so stupid they don’t understand what is going on, rather they choose to mislead. This makes it all the more disgusting. Short sighted madness has gripped the UK for generations and the bill for this behaviour is going to land in our laps eventually. Millions still blindly trust and parrot these sources, sadly. As the days go by I can’t help but feel it is all far too late to chance course from the upcoming brick wall.

    54. Desimond says:

      The whole budget and bleak future is encapsulated in the brilliant Justin Currie song: ‘No Surrender’

      ‘Don’t get sick, don’t get wise or they’ll gut you with a justice where everything is lies
      March down Main Street, complain if you want but it’s twenty years straight for the losers at the front’ –,%20Surrender.html

    55. galamcennalath says:


      “So averages look high because a relatively small number of very high pay pulls it up. The worker in the middle of the population gets the median pay”

      They abuse everything, including statistics. The curve of pay is incredibly asymmetrical and disappears off to the horizon with the small number who earn vast amounts. In that sort of distribution, MEDIAN rather than mean is the honest measurement.

      The Gini coefficient is a measurement of inequality. Anyone interested in how ill divided the UK has become compared to other Western economies should go and explore that index. Start on Wiki.

    56. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Gov will find a way to mitigate the policies. It could give 0-3 year olds in households of under a certain amount, an allowance even through the Local Authorities. Or increase nursery places. Introduce a higher council tax band for houses over £700K. Or a social payment for the vulnerable who are sanctioned – through the councils etc. Increase the social care payment for the elderly.

      Introduce a small land tax for non productive land when it is sold. Put a tax on land sales. Build more social houses and sell off any over 25 years old (paid for twice) and spend the money building house. Give grants for solar power and put in more electric car points, or subsidise the sale of Electric cars. Electric cars are 4times cheaper to run. It would save the economy a fortune. Free up money for the vulnerable.

      There is much the Scottish Gov can do. Nicola and Co will do it.

      Vote SNP/SSP/Tommy Sheridan for Holyrood 2016. If you want Independence and a better society.

      Most of all when SNP put another Referendum in a Manifesto vote for them. Vote YES in another Independence Referedum.

      Just wait till the EU Referendum. Vote No.

    57. Ken500 says:

      Thanks Rev Stu. Where would Scotland be without you. Thanks a Billion for ploughing through the lies.

      The debt is going up. Osbourne is printing money. QE. The wealthiest are not paying their share putting up the debt. It is immoral, unfair and unjust. It is a London budget. They can’t take it with them. No one wants to live in such a Union. Major called the Tories ‘bastards’. He lied. They are lying ‘Bastards’.

    58. heedtracker says: Nothing about their Scotland region and their budget effects on Scots.

      One of the many reasons this lot are so creepy is not merely because it’s just one more fake progressive liberal UKOK outfit that shat all over Scottish democracy last year, or that their Scotland region editor Severin Carrell was a routine BBC Scotland vote NO or else talking head/bullshitter despite the fact that they’re lucky to sell a thousand papers a day in Scotland’s towns and cities, its that they’ve won.

      Red or blue tory, the UK is centre right now for decades to come. Another bloody good war in the middle or far east and that’s Scotland, UKOK fcuked for the rest of our lives.

    59. Proud Cybernat says:

      Well, at least we can be thankful that Labour didn’t win the GE. Didn’t they say they were going to be harder on welfare spending than the blue Tories?

    60. lisl says:

      I agree with the thrust of the article but re higher rate tax payable by the family of four with two earners on a total of 60,000, they would be very unlikely to pay higher rate tax.

      Unless things have radically changed since I worked in tax 15 years ago, the threshold for higher rate tax for each individual, whether or not in a married couple, is 43,000ish of taxable income. That applies only after the 11,000 of personal allowance is taken into account. Therefore the couple would have to earn 54,000 each to be paying higher rates.

      I’m prepared to be wrong on that though; I’m not married or earning that much.

    61. Davie Park says:

      The mind-set this budget exposes chills me to the bone.

      I’m one of the hapless poor – my wife and I bring in less than £20,000 p.a. but there’s only the two of us and we manage by hook or by crook.

      What of a young couple with kids? WTF are they going to do? How will they adequately feed and clothe their children?

      Utterly sickening and there’s fuck all we can do about it. It would drive you to despair.

    62. Ken500 says:

      Did Westminster MP’s not get a £7000 increase recently. Along with their more than generous expenses. Plus what those in power can scam in secret back handers and public sector sell offs and White elephant rail ways. All benefiting London S/E.

      The SNP is crowd funded by it’s members.

    63. DerekM says:

      The whole budget is a tory con ,austerity is a lie to cover up the movement of public monies to private hands , essentially we are bailing out the banks again,this has nothing to do with deficit reduction but has to do with what they all expected and feared would happen that one country would tell them to spin on it,setting of a chain reaction in the banks which will blow Deutsche Bank out the water,collapse the euro and pound and throw Europe deep into a depression making 2008 look like a blip.

      As usual though the MSM do their best to cover up the facade no point telling bad news yet as nobody knows where the first crack will appear but all the smart money is on London ,hence the drama we just witnessed.

      And to think we could have escaped this it makes me sick to my stomach they have learned nothing from 2008,well England what are you going to do about it ,you have 3 maybe 4 years before it all goes pop.

      But wait is that the US i see dashing across the pond to the rescue with TTIP or am i just an old cynic.

    64. woosie says:

      Great dissection of a predictably rabid budget.

      The cuts in corporation tax will only really be of benefit to large businesses. I run a small company, and pay 20% of all profit as corporation tax. For all the profits are, the cuts won’t be of any use at all. The former system was much better, whereby a threshold of £10,000 existed, so small companies had a breathing space; that £2,000 was invariably recycled into the economy by purchasing plant and materials, or as additional payment to workers.

      The Scottish Govt can only ease the pain so much, we have to find a way out of this corrupt, heartless “union”. I’m reading the “Game of Thrones” books right now, and the worst of the warring kingdoms isn’t a patch on this!

      Lifted a Scotch Sun in a cafe this morning; important piece about Wimbledon – “Kate trounces Kim in battle of the hairdos”. I suppose Kim deserved that for marrying a Scot. Still, the drip, drip anti-Scots media sickens me to increasing depths.

    65. Nana Smith says:


      Ach Macart I don’t really comment much, just paste my links now & then but there are some days when I have to say something or I will explode.

      That’s not a sight I would want anyone to witness right now!

      Wish I had your gift as a wordsmith.

    66. Ken500 says:

      The median pay in Scotland is £21K . The median pay in the rest of the UK is £25K? All those London S/E higher salaries, banking HQ’s legal HQ’s civil service HQ, administration jobs,company HQ’s tourist attractions, infrastructure jobs. Etc. The Mall etc., funded by the rest of the country.

    67. Hobbit says:

      After reading Kezia’s comments about appearing to be “only on the side of the most vulnerable in society”, I somehow doubt a Labour budget would have been overmuch different …

    68. Keendark says:

      Now that George has done his bit and made some headway towards making us destitute, it’s onto the more serious issue of chasing foxes with dogs. They ruined our day, lets ruin their fun

    69. Kid Spotlight says:

      A very level headed assessment, Rev.

      Labour’s response to this appalling regressive budget has been pitiful – with HH’s riposte (as opposition leader) yesterday being particularly shabby. Even by this morning the full implication of how this mugging is going to impact on low income families had not been taken up by the left – with the broad sheet internet stuffed full of organised Tory (and Labour) rhetoric about how wonderful this budget thing was for everyone.

      I sincerely hope it will sink into thick political skulls very soon what a stitch up this budget has been, and serious political action is taken to defer/reverse the scale and timing of these cuts – if not April 2016 is going to see a renewed rush for the foodbanks.

    70. Macart says:


      Its the heart that matters Nana. There’s plenty folk that are clever with words and grammar and such. None of that matters so much as what you say and when you say it.

    71. msean says:

      Surely this budget must have hit a lot of the no voters,must have done unless they all live in luxury which I guess must be the case.

      They can’t all have been rich and driving expensive cars with gold plated pensions. Good job the UK has broad shoulders.

    72. stewart fae stoney says:

      Thank you all you no voters we have another 5 years of this Tory budget pish to endure and nothing we can do. What are the chances of Indy ref 2 if Nicola and co landslide the next Scottish elections. cameron and osborne I hope your next shite is a hedgehog

    73. crazycat says:

      The five “winner” groups make a total net gain of £890, which is paid for by slashing a monstrous £2,094 from a low-income working family. Keen students of arithmetic will notice that that makes the population overall (as seen by the Mail) worse off by £1,204 a household per year

      Maybe I’m not a very good student of arithmetic, but I don’t think that’s right.

      That particular group of “families” is worse off overall by £1,204, but to extrapolate to the population as a whole and then find a per-household figure, don’t you need to know the proportion of each group, in order to calculate a weighted average?

      I assume that “as seen by the Mail” refers to their totally ignoring large sections of the populace (those who will do worst, naturally), not to an inference that there are equal numbers of each of their categories in the population as a whole.

    74. Aldo says:

      By 2020, minimum wage will net you 19 and a half grand a year, the first 11000 of which will be tax free. You could argue inflation will eat into that but inflation is currently zero – or near enough.

      I think that’s an excellent deal for the British people, especially considering the wages of the skilled will also have to increase to maintain incentives. If anything I’m a little worried it’s a wee bit too socialistic. But I assume they’ve done their sums on this and know that the economy will be able to bear it.

    75. Gavin says:

      Today’s National. The front cover sums it up really.

      What have we had since the referendum ? Promises of “jam tomorrow” have come to nothing with absolutely he haw in the way of significant extra powers, in spite of an historic SNP GE result. Now this, with the same old Tory policies of protecting the rich and attacking the poor. The next five years are going to be tough. The SNP can’t do much in Westminster but can cushion the blow at holyrood, so it is vital that they form the next Scottish government. I had considered giving my second vote to the greens or ssp but no, too risky. Tactical voting doesn’t really work., as was shown by the SNPouters antics at the GE.

      Where have our resident unionist readers disappeared to. I enjoy reading there nonsense and enjoy even more seeing there arguments get shredded by fellow wingers. Maybe they have finally got the message.

      Vote SNP in 2016

    76. Stephen says:

      Reading many of the posts it seems most of us are quite happy for our English and Welsh neighbours to stew in the poverty they find themselves emersed in while we demand that it’s time for independence. Not very neighbourly! What we need to demand is an end to this evil regime progressing with this targeting of the poor while their fat cat pals get rich from it and are awarded disproportionate tax breaks. This is not a question of independence (although I would welcome t wth open arms tomorrow), it’s a question of humanity and protecting our vulnerable in society from these clueless Tory morons.

    77. Petra says:

      How manipulative can they get? Front page heading ‘GEORGE GIVES UK A PAY RISE’ with a photograph underneath of Kim Murray and Kate Middleton clapping their hands.

      And where do they get their figures from? As far as I was aware the State pension is around £140 a week maximum (£7,280 pa) unless you have a works pension on top of that which is then taxed at 20% over £10,600 pa. Someone on here may correct me if I’m wrong.

      The average wage figure was also lowered recently by the Tories to £23,000 a year.

      No mention either of people on zero hour contracts, the POOREST of the POOR in this country. Osborne is bragging that application for Job Seekers Allowance has dropped dramatically however I know that many people no longer claim it at all (such as those on ZHCs) because of the red tape involved and generally ‘sending them packing through scunneration’.

      They had riots in London (all over England) a couple of years ago and it wouldn’t surprise me if we witness a repeat performance of that.

    78. TYRAN says:

      The self-employed man earning £40,000 per year. Who is this man? What a lot of rubbish. More like £4,000 per year. And I am speaking from experience. Demand is way down as companies tell me they simply don’t have the money to spend and cutting staff themselves.

    79. Graeme Doig says:

      A real ‘rule britannia’ ‘one nation’, ‘everyone’s a winner’ budget. Cheers Georgy boy.

      I’ve worked all my days but recently developed a chronic back problem. It may not be too long before i need to rely on the state to support my family. Ha good luck wi that one Graeme.

      Under Westminster i and my family will become demonised and poverty stricken in one stroke of the DWP’s pen.

      Many people are already in this situation and that is an effin disgrace.

      Come on folks get off your arses. We’re all going to need to become company directors to make ends meet.

      Thanks especially go to our UKOK friends for that reality check we all needed.

    80. ArtyHetty says:

      Dave M Hill @11.36am

      “that’s why the National needs our support to allow it to increase its circulation and become a bigger, better and more varied newspaper that will challenge our present dreadful tabloids and start to take readership from them.
      At the moment it is talking mainly to the already converted”.

      Absolutely essential to retain a good alternative media, most folk round here, do like to purchase their rags from local shops rather than look online for the actual news.

      However, I have noticed just the last few days that our local shops, the big franchise ones, have far fewer of the National in stock. I have spent months going round taking piles of them off the bottom shelf, where they have been placed under weekly rags upside down by some unionist git, I even complained to one shop. Now they seem to have less of them, we have an uphill battle, but we will get there no voters! Ha!

    81. ArtyHetty says:


      which planet?

    82. HandandShrimp says:

      The Mail’s analysis is quite simple, middle class and well off people are securing small increases per annum through ensuring the poor become very poor.

      Osborne has introduced a right wing Tory wet dream.

      There will be tears and a dysfunctional society (OK, an even more dysfunctional society).

    83. Philip Allan says:

      Hate to be critical of a generally well considered and well written article! But sorry, Rev! “As a keen student of arithmetic”, I’ve spotted the flaw in your calculations. To make the £1.204 a household per year worse off for the population overall would require that the entire population fitted into these six groups, and that each group contained exactly the same number of ‘families’! Basic statistics!

      Not having the numbers to check, I can’t make any assessment as to the true overall or average amounts, but I’m pretty confident that the actual average value by which we’re (nearly) all going to be worse off is considerably more pessimistic than your calculation!

    84. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      it’s a question of humanity and protecting our vulnerable in society from these clueless Tory morons.”

      Unfortunately that’s not within our gift. England seems determined to vote for these clueless Tory morons and that’s their democratic right. Scotland doesn’t vote for them. Scotland is entitled to try to free itself from the abyss England is voluntarily walking into.

    85. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The summary seems to be: £24.6bn of cuts & £47.2bn of rises”

      It does? Where are you getting that from? The IFS has 13m families – which must be a majority of the population – losing an average of several hundred pounds each.

    86. Democracy Reborn says:

      Well Stu, it seems that Paul Johnson from the IFS agrees with you:-

      “Given the array of benefit cuts, it is not surprising that the changes overall are regressive : taking more from poorer households than richer ones.”

    87. Jim says:

      BBC News:

      “Scottish Labour said it was a “bad budget for working families, our most vulnerable and our young people”.


      The Scotman:

      “Kezia Dugdale said that Labour has been seen as too concerned with the vulnerable – and must now reach out to the vast majority of Scots who want to “better themselves.”


      “Kezia Dugdale said, “Too often in the recent past it has looked like we are only on the side of one group of people – the most vulnerable in society, she added.”

      Now Ms Dugdale, why don’t you do a Murphy and resign!

    88. Scott Borthwick says:

      Luigi says:
      9 July, 2015 at 11:27 am

      But, we were promised jam! 🙁

      And we got jam. What do you mean you don’t like dangleberry?

    89. Aldo says:

      Oh, same planet I think – Earth. Just different decade / century :0)

      I’m aware that tax credits are taking a battering and some people will lose out by more than they gain from this budget. But what would you have the government do – ignore the deficit and continue borrowing huge amounts?

      These are the tough decisions that any government must make from time to time. This would include an independent Scottish government also btw – which would also have to make swingeing cuts to balance the books (far beyond anything the tories are doing).

    90. leginge says:

      slightly O/T but relates to mainstream media bias in the Greek referendum

    91. Marco McGinty says:

      The good and the bad of the BBC this morning.

      On BBC1, Charlie Stayt interviewed George Osborne, and twice asked him about the family that will now be £1200 worse off as a result of the budget, and twice Osborne completely ignored the question, the second time by immediately switching the discussion to the “unemployed scroungers”. However, Stayt should have kept pressing him on the matter of the working family being worse off.

      Later on BBC2, we had Andrew Neil stating that the people of Scotland are subsidised by England. Stewart Hosie, tried to explain the situation, but was interrupted by Neil, however Hosie should have been more forceful in his responses, and should not have allowed Neil to promote his pro-union lies.

    92. Scott Borthwick says:

      Here’s a thought: the SNP have been on the warpath about this Budget, saying it’s Robin Hood in reverse and it will hit the most vulnerable the hardest. It may be a drop in the ocean in comparison to the overall effects of the budget, but it seems to me the SNP MPs could make a small but significant stand on principle against this.

      As we all know, all MPs have recently been awarded a pay increase of £7,000 each. If the SNP MPs publicly declared that they were going to donate their combined pay increase of £392,000 to a suitable Scottish charity or local foodbank, it would send a very strong message of solidarity with the people of Scotland. They could also challenge their fellow MPs who may have spoken out against the budget proposals to follow suit.

      I am aware that many of them may be doing this quietly on an individual basis, but it seems to me that they should be doing their utmost to stand up to the Conservatives on this. After all, it appears that they are effectively the opposition.

    93. galamcennalath says:


      “Not very neighbourly!”

      More than half of voters in E&W voted for ultra right wing parties, Con + UKIP

      More than half of voters in Scotland voted for pro-Indy parties

      Neighbours have to agree to disagree about somethings. They made their choice, we made ours. We need to move forward on our chosen direction. Where they go, is their problem.

      Perhaps as part of our foreign aid budget, an independent Scotland can help out the needy in Africa and England.

    94. cearc says:

      The National has, in a bullet point, “Employment and Support Allowance to be ‘aligned’ with Jobseeker’s Allowance.”

      I saw/heard this mentioned briefly yesterday but haven’t seen any details anywhere.

      This looks like one hell of a cut for sick/disabled people.

    95. crazycat says:

      @ cearc

      I’m not fully up-to-date with this, but there has always, I think, been a lower rate of ESA that was the same amount as JSA – it was contributions based and I received it briefly 5 years ago.

      Then, to qualify for the (slightly) higher rate, all sorts of hoops had to be jumped through but I think it did not depend upon having paid NI for the requisite period. That was round about the time ATOS was brought in.

      I think that even after the setting up of all the different groups (work-related activity or whatever it was called, and the support group) there were still two rates.

      It sounds as if there may now only be one; the lower one, naturally.

    96. Lesley-Anne says:

      I am so glad that there is someone around who can look at the decimation caused by wee Georgie “the towel folder” Porgie through rose tinted glasses and say to everyone that everything is fine the world as THEY know it has been saved from oblivion.

      I’m disabled and receive D.L.A. once a month … or is it I.L.A. … or have they changed it’s name again? Anyway whichever way I look at things, like everyone else who lives in the REAL world … I’m f****d!

    97. Clootie says:

      Buckle up and hold on tight….at least 10 more years of Tory policies to come 🙁

    98. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Aldo so you,ve seen the books of Scotlands revenue contrabutions, have you,that is a unknown factor untill we see what Scotlands over all revanue is to the Westminster Parliament & they wont reveil the full accounted amounts.

    99. Paula says:

      Even with the armour and golden locks, Osborne still looks evil. He looks like a Lannister.

    100. shug says:

      Democracy you get the government you deserve
      Suck it up no voters
      Bitter together

    101. Aldo says:

      “Ultra right wing” being used in relation to the tories and UKIP is a bit misleading.

      Would an ultra right wing government legalise, for example, gay marriage? (even before Scotland did it).

      As for UKIP – harmless old men who dream of a return to the 1950s. The fifties weren’t that bad – if you were male / straight / white / not disabled :0)

    102. Aldo says:

      Just going by John Swinney’s own (leaked) pronouncements on indy Scotland austerity, Ronnie.

    103. paulTgeist says:

      The headline of this article above is a beauty but may i offer my own version bearing in mind the moronic gloating and cheering carried out by Westminsters Tory cheerleaders yesterday.

      The Great Rob’n’Gloat Swindle.

      We, the folk of Scotland, demand our independence…..NOW!

    104. Lesley-Anne says:

      Just we can all put this budget into perspective here are a couple of links, apoligies if they have been put up previously, about a couple of poor wee chaps who are having trouble making ends meet … apparently. 😉

      First up we have someone called I.D.S. who is having so much trouble making ends meet he now asks the terminally ill when they expect to die!!!

      Second up is another poor wee soul called George something or other. Apparently he, his family and their poor wee family run business are having so much financial problems that they are transferring all their banking stuff OFFSHORE!!!

      I wonder how these two poor wee souls feel about Georgie Porgie the Towel Folder and his budget now!

    105. icyspark says:

      Here are the cuts to the low paid in a nice easy graph.

    106. maureen says:

      Like everyone else in the support group for esa, I will be reassessed at some point.
      If taken out of the support group, my esa income will drop from £125 a week to jobseekers rate, a loss of £50 a week and I still won’t be able to work due to longterm illness. Not such a bright future to look forward to.

    107. Agip says:

      I was listening very carefully to that part of the speech. That change won’t apply to those in the support group.

      Still one hell of a cut for those in the WRAG.

      Another disincentive for those who should think of applying for ESA.

    108. heedtracker says:

      Bullet points

      Smith Commission completely closes down any and all economic growth via Holyrood, opens up all kinds of UKOK attack on existence of Holyrood, pretendy parliament, town council talking shop etc.

      EVEL almost completely disenfranchises all Scottish voters, no Scottish constituent MP ever gets near high office ever again.

      Tory Boy budget strips away even more from poorest, Scottish slave wage economy even worse off, homeless level’s jumps up with untaxed mass by-to-rent hikes.

      That’ll teach the sweaties to act up and let’s see them challenge us again over Trident 2.

      Watch red tory SLabour move in attack SNP Holyrood on everything resulting from blue tory attack on Scottish democracy.

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 7 hrs7 hours ago Scotland, United Kingdom
      BBC RS now: John Swinney needs to explain how cutting 140,000 college places increases productivity.

    109. Molly says:


      Re your point about people getting tax credits” some may lose out”.

      We all lose out Aldo .

      We in effect subsidise supermarkets like Walmart ( other supermarkets are available) because they do not pay a decent wage.

      Walmart billionaires walk away with their profits and we pay towards the tax credits. We are subsidising big business.

      There’s something the Government could do .

      Of course in Great Britain , a packet of fags is valued more than an hour of a workers time,.

    110. So Westminster think the median figure for a pensioner is £18,000 per annum. I must have done something wrong, because, after both myself, and my wife, having worked over 100yrs in total, our state pensions taken together,don’t even reach the single persons figure.

    111. Grouse Beater says:

      Aldo: These are the tough decisions that any government must make from time to time. This would include an independent Scottish government also btw – which would also have to make swingeing cuts to balance the books (far beyond anything the tories are doing).

      That’s the kind of feckless chatter that allows governments to rob the masses of trillions to prop up dodgy banks, and to spend trillions more on illegal they could have avoided.

      Fools will say that endlessly, ever year, endlessly. They do so, because they believe their government is always right, always working for their best interests.

      It’s called, rolling over and playing dead.

      The insult assumes Scotland will do likewise, as if somehow, all small countries are as imperialistic as England and the US.

    112. fionan says:

      plenty detail everywhere on the measures announced, which re draconian, but what is missing is when each of these measures comes into force. Tax credit level for instance – is this with immediate effect? Motor insurance – immediate or jan 1st or next april? Tax personal allowance rise- immediate? Because I m sure there will be nother hidden money grab wihting the timing of introduction of each measure, eg cut in inheritance tax immediate effect. Are any of these senior bullingdon pricks expecting an inheritance imminently?

    113. ann says:

      Aldo you seem to be defending Osborne.

      Once again the working classes are being hit from all sides by the Tories, yet the rich are once again being exempt.

      We are supposed to be in this “all together”, yet once again it is the single, the young, the poor, the ill, the disabled, the hard working mums and dads on low wages and children the most innocent of innocent who will suffer the most.

      Westminster can save lots of money by first stopping the replacement of Trident, stop supporting America it is quest for domination of the Middle East.

      Stop vanity projects such as HS2 and the upgrade of Wasteminster and Bucks Palace. The list is endless and would save in excess of £100 billion.

    114. Fred says:

      This site is excellent today. 🙂

    115. heedtracker says:

      We, the folk of Scotland, demand our independence…..NOW!

      The only option is manifesto pledge/offers by SNP.

      Are your ready for Project Fear 2?

      BBC Scotland ever more aggressive, all press waiting to monster everything independence again, Bliar MacDougal still hanging around Scotland like a bad smell and it’s not because he’s this all of sudden enemy of the UKOK Tory boys.

      They’re all planning and waiting for the next referendum. If not, Bliar MacBloator would have scarpered off to London even faster than red Tory Lord Darling.

    116. Aldo says:

      This wasn’t really a tory budget. It was very much a centrist budget aimed at resolving some imbalances that have been crying out for resolution for several years.

      Minimum wage raised substantially against the wishes of mega corporations like Tesco and ASDA, who begged the govt not to do it. This reduces the need for state subsidy of poverty wages (something which simply shouldn’t be happening).

      Abolition of non dom status.

      Increased tax on dividends.

      Crackdown on tax avoidance.

      Extra tax on bank profits.

      A labour / SNP coalition could have wrote this budget. But the minimum wage hike would not have been as impressive.

      I’m just overwhelmed with joy that in a few years I’ll be able to leave my stressful job and stack shelves if I want for 20k +

    117. Aldo says:

      In an indy Scotland I would expect a bonfire of the freebies. No more free education, prescriptions etc – at the very least.

      Labour in Scotland are all over the place on this and running scared from the SNP. They don’t need to be. There is a sensible, simple and effective course they can take – guarantee the retention of all currently universally free services in Scotland under any future labour government at Holyrood but remind people that this is only feasible as part of the United Kingdom. It could be their ‘clause 4’ moment.

      Then it will be up to the Scottish people. 19k min wage + all the free stuff still in place or a massive leap into the unknown.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Here we go! YES Scotland could have turned Scotland into an independent nation state, The Vow and EVL turned Scotland back into a dependent region of the UK, but EVEL may have gone a tas too far. Its not chaos and fear and bare faced corruption that and the saviour of the scrounger Scots?

      Alistair Carmichael, the former Lib Dem Scotland secretary to the teamGB rescue. Only red tory rancid old Guardian could fart out an EVEL report but make no mention of any SNP MP’s anywhere, and thereby setting the Brit media pace for the next teamGB five years and beyond.

      Anyhoo, EVEL isn’t a blue tory power grab, it’s all an opportunity to show the great Alistair Carmichael in action. All heil Sir Alistair, he’s saving you.

    119. Anthony McGregor says:

      So basically once again the “press” tells lies?

      I note that as an employee of the local council, living in a council flat, earning approx 15k per year, in a nutshell i am screwed.

      So much for helping those in need.


    120. galamcennalath says:


      Osborne’s family’s property dealings. IF ( big if ) he personally has benefited financially, given his previous supposed stance on offshore tax avoidance, he should resign.

    121. Anagach says:

      Aldo says:
      9 July, 2015 at 4:06 pm

      In an indy Scotland I would expect a bonfire of the freebies.

      Troll, trolling, trolled. Expect all you want, but there is nothing to support your expectations except your delusions. The use of the word “freebies” to describe any universally supplied service at point of need suggests your of a particular right wing bent politically and economically.

      I very much doubt that Scotland or any other European country is going to cancel primary education or medical service.

    122. ScottieDog says:

      It’s a common misconception and one I hear all the time – What about the deficit?!

      The problem is, the line you are being fed by the neo-classical economists via the majority of the UK press is that the UK govt will run out of money. The truth is that it can’t. In fact you may remember that under QE, the govt issued £375 BN of reserves which were effectively used to buy up existing UK debt.

      The cause of the 2008 crash was NEVER about public debt, it was caused by too much private debt. In fact the national debt was doubled just to guarantee the continued way of life city of London cartel and now stands at around £1.4TR.

      The current economy is teetering on deflation. Think the stats said 0.1% decline last quarter.
      So how do you turn that around?

      Well the current govt and their opposition believe that the govt must make a monthly surplus as opposed to a deficit in order to reduce this national debt (which is a joke in itself when a govt can issue its own sovereign currency).

      So if there is NO monthly output of money into the economy from govt, where does the money come from to grow the economy?

      The only place it can come from is the private sector. The only other institutions which create new money other than govt (legally) are commercial banks. Banks only create money when people borrow it. Loans create deposits, not the other way round.

      So in effect Osborne is saying that in order to grow the economy WE the people have to continue to take on more personal debt. All of this when our salaries have stagnated.
      As I said above, it was personal debt which caused the previous crisis and the govt are encouraging the same rise in personal debt we had in 2007. In fact our ratio of private debt to GDP is almost at 2007 levels.

      Problem is, if we choose not to borrow, then the money supply decreases – as people pay down their debts, banks remove money from the economy – the opposite of when we borrow. If we continue as Osborne wants us to and borrow recklessly, we face default and an almighty crash.

      This is why SNP and indeed Syriza were talking about borrowing albeit as small amount in order to create more jobs and hence tax revenue. We can spend 0.5 trillion bailing out the city but not £100BN over a few years to actually make the economy productive.

      It’s not just about morality, it’s actually macro-economic principles at work. Osborne isn’t an economist, the Greek chancellor IS. And it shows.

    123. iain taylor says:

      Getting old isn’t smart either. I’ve already lost £3,000 p-a (£250 pcm) from my state pension as a result of the changes announced post referendum.

      As I’ll be 63 shortly, there isn’t much chance to do anything about it.

      You’ll excuse me if I have no patience with gullible No voters or the “I’m all right jock” crowd.

    124. liz says:

      @stephen This is the same sanctimonious twaddle that Lab kept churning out during the Indy ref.

      Scotland is not the rUK’s nanny.

      I care about the poor in Greece also not just the UK.

    125. dakk says:

      Aldo 3.56

      You think a sinecure with 77th bde is a ‘stressful job’ ?

      Get real.

      Re your point about deflation and £9/hr for over 25s by 2020.Don’t you think house price inflation in England which isn’t included in CPI will negate any benefit accrued from this ?

    126. Molly says:


      you do realise wages are actually 10% less than they were pre 2008 ? So good luck with your £20,000 when you retire from your important job to oh what job did you belittle ? Right enough stacking shelves.

      You ever seen the workload ASDA staff put in on a nightshift? From the pallets to the shelves?

      Actually Aldo , I dont give a shit if the Labour Party has a eureka moment , I’m to busy showing my kids what happens to their community when people/Govt hold money up as a God.

      The good news is , they and their age group will push much further to correct the balance than the rest of us who grew up with Mrs Ts policies and let’s hope they’ve a bit more empathy with old retirees stocking the shelves.

      By the way, is that Asda who met with David Cameron pre Referendum, the same Asda who printed a picture from Asda Falkirk saying prices would go up post Indy. If only they’d panned the camera out a bit…

    127. Maureen mangan says:

      As many of the commentators mentioned yesterday, the folk most likely to benefit from not having to pay inheritance tax on the £1m family home are those who have properties in London.

      So whilst the rest of us are thankful for the low interest rate because the housing market has come to a standstill in our areas and negative equity is always a possibility, London property owners get to enjoy the low mortgage rate whilst their properties continue to increase in value and now they’re even being told they don’t have to pay any tax on the windfall they’ve had at our expense.

      When are we finally going to say enough is enough and actually do something about it?

    128. Grouse Beater says:

      Aldo: but remind people that this is only feasible as part of the United Kingdom.

      Sorry, folks; can’t take Aldi’s little cousin seriously. He’s ‘avin’ a larf. All’s well in the bosom of Westminster, and other flim-flam.

    129. LouisB.Argyll says:

      Yes, this site is good today.
      Had tech probs, back now, been view only mode!!

    130. Marco McGinty says:

      “I’m just overwhelmed with joy that in a few years I’ll be able to leave my stressful job and stack shelves if I want for 20k+”

      Firstly, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that you can just leave one full-time job and walk into another.

      Secondly, to earn £20k+ on minimum wage in 2020, you would have to work a 40 hour week for 56 weeks! Did you bother to check your figures?

      Of course, this £9 per hour minimum wage is wholly reliant on the Tories sticking to this latest “vow”. What are the chances that they perform a spectacular u-turn on this as well?

    131. dougiekdy says:

      The Great Work’n’Dole Swindle? as someone once said “Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?”

      The sight of IDS in the HoC on the news last night was enough to make me barf up my dinner. Osborne’s being portrayed as some kind of hero in the right wing press and those gullible ar5eholes that voted tory in the GE were thinking of 1 thing – themself.

    132. PictAtRandom says:

      ” donald anderson says:
      9 July, 2015 at 11:01 am

      Cab’t get over the shameless cheek of HM Loyal Opposition shedding crocodile teas”

      No need for them in this bri(gh)t new world. Just like class struggle and salmon teas.

    133. Kid Spotlight says:

      Aldo seems to typify the rhetoric of the prevalent Tory/Lab mentality, which promotes the swallowing of neo Liberal propaganda hook, line and sinker. These people conveniently discard most rules of macroeconomics and plant the blame for the misfiring of the economy at the door of the poor, unemployed, disabled or any other poor bugger but the ones really to blame.

      The very existence of structural unemployment itself is a deliberate policy beloved of post 1950s governments to keep inflation on check. The unemployed are not feckless recipients of benefits but conduits of tax subsidies paid to supermarkets and landlords.

      Ironically the typical neo-Liberal would run a mile at the thought of laissez-faire economics, the sort that didn’t rely on regressive governmental distribution of wealth to keep the corporate and middle class property interests safe. When viewed in any detail the process can only be described as theft. There are too many examples of these inequities to detail, and several contributors before me have already told their own harrowing tales which brings it home better than I could.

      The writing was on the wall for this budget once Gideon’s office confirmed the inheritance tax bung (ie baby boomer property windfall exemption) last week. Unearned money will now flow tax free through the monied classes, further inflating the property market throughout the UK and further disadvantaging those who already cannot cannot afford housing.

      And still so many ordinary folks buy into this crass MSM RW terminology and think it clever to discredit any poor person on benefits; completely ignoring the biggest recipients of government benefits are corporations, banks, the armaments industry, landlords, property developers and market speculators (the PO and RBS sell-offs being two prime examples of subsidised risk taking for the wealthy).

    134. heedtracker says:

      I’m just overwhelmed with joy that in a few years I’ll be able to leave my stressful job and stack shelves if I want for 20k +

      What a tosser.

    135. Scott Borthwick says:

      Aldo says:
      9 July, 2015 at 4:06 pm

      “Labour in Scotland are all over the place on this and running scared from the SNP. They don’t need to be. There is a sensible, simple and effective course they can take – guarantee the retention of all currently universally free services in Scotland under any future labour government at Holyrood but remind people that this is only feasible as part of the United Kingdom. It could be their ‘clause 4? moment.”

      If you think it’s that easy, why don’t you go join the Labour Party. Lord knows they need some leadership. You would of course be telling a lie, but that would stand you in good stead in that party.

      By the way, their Clause 4 moment? Another one? How many would that be? I’ve lost count…

    136. Andy-B says:

      We need to get away from Westminster, independence is the only REAL way forward for Scotland, we need yes voters to try and convince more no voters to vote yes, in a referendum that will hopefully be sooner than we think.

      Hold out the Olive branch and get converting, we don’t need that big a swing to change the future of Scotland.

      Osborne and the Tories are trampling on your kids and grandkids dreams, long term austerity leads to hopelessness, apathy and illness.

    137. David Wardrope says:

      Going by the old faithful saying, “no government can bind the hands of its successor” I take it we can safely assume this also means no government can bind its own hands…

      Yesterday’s budget is tough going to say the least, but my heart always sinks a little more when I remember that there’s still an autumn statement and another budget before we even get to the next fiscal year. And given the Tories ability to ignore its own promises in the past such as the promise to eliminate the defecit by 2015 (miles off with that one) and Cameron’s statement that “Child Tax Credits will not fall”, Osborne can easily turn a terrible 5 year plan into a nightmare-ish one on a whim.

    138. Dr Jim says:

      Where do these guys come from
      Every time the opposition makes an A..e of itself these guys pop up as if to save them from their Sh..e

      Why Oh Why?

    139. Aldo says:

      The tory guy on the news last night said It would actually reach 9.35 by the end of the parliament. That’s 19.5k approx. OT could take it to 20k+ fairly easily.

      I think it’s brilliant! I know it wont happen immediately but even in a few years, this will still be a very fair wage.

      The general feeling I’m getting from several sites just now including notoriously left wing ones is that people think this budget is excellent / good / fair. People are stunned by just how liberal it is. But pro-independence sites can never admit that a UK government has succeeded in anything and certainly not a tory government! It would undermine your cause. But, then, so does endlessly moaning about things that are actually quite good.

    140. gordoz says:

      – Aldo

      A clear front runner in the leadership race to the bottom with the Red Tories.

      Labour are finished and he knows it. Unless Labour warm to idea of an Independence Scotland they have no place other than to merge with the Tories and I trust he knows that too but is in denial.

    141. Grouse Beater says:

      Scott: If you think it’s that easy, Aldo…

      Take note – he ignores replies to post another insult bolder than the last against SNP/Posters/the poor/Scotland … choose your target.

      Troll at work.

    142. Proud Cybernat says:

      Robin’ food fae the mouths o’ bairns.

      But it’s not like we didn’t know they would do that. They’re (blue) Tories. That’s what Tories do.

      If you voted NO in the indy-ref and are horrified by this latest Tory pillaging of the poor then just effing shut yer mouth!

    143. gordoz says:

      See Neil Findlay MSP has a Bromance crush on Rev 🙂

      Doesn’t like Joan McAlpine though.

      Oh wait a minute he’s ‘Labour in Scotland’ and is therefor irrelevant ..

      Sorry guys 😉

    144. Scott Borthwick says:

      My thanks, GB. Aldo is certainly a very busy (and very dull) boy.

    145. Iain More says:

      I blame the Naw voters for this mostly. I blame secondly the Labour Party for not confronting the Neo Cons.

      If Scotland had voted Aye then the Neo Fascists would have been finished in England. Now they are stronger than ever.

      The Naw voters are disgusting vile creatures.

    146. heedtracker says:

      O/T but WoS upsetting our imperial masters, again. Bad WoS! This blue tory unionista likes to take long hard weewees over Scottish economy but its interesting how none of these guys can ever answer that timeless query…

      If Scots oil worthless and can never fill Scotland’s deficit, why wont our imperial masters give up control of the Scottish oil and gas industry to Holyrood and Scotland?

      Not our oil, even when tory bums in Scotland decide its worthless.

      You can try asking assorted red and blue tory boys why they wont give Scotland control of Scots oil, if you’re very bored but don’t expect any reply, other than Scotland’s too poor, small, needs England, SNP v bad, WoS v v bad, all the way to our own independence and we shake off these twerps once and for all.

    147. Iain More says:

      Aldo away with yee and get real. Talking pish you are. Was your last handle here a star wars themed one by any chance?

    148. call me dave says:

      The shoe seller must have been listening to GMS this morning.


    149. Aldo says:

      I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone got nasty on it. If you want this to simply be a nationalist self congratulatory contest, fair enough. But you have to win over no voters before you can win any future referendum. Try engaging instead of insulting.

      I suspect labour aren’t finished. The Scottish people have made clear that they want more socialism but not independence. The labour party seems naturally placed to provide this – being a historically socialist as well as a unionist party. They just have to steal the SNP’s clothes – which the SNP originally nicked from them so it wouldn’t really be stealing.

      The labour party can make the Scottish people an offer they can’t refuse – all they have to do is clean up their act and get busy hammering home the message I have suggested.

      As for the tories – it is their place to provide an alternative to both labour and the SNP should their taxation / big state approach ever get out of hand.

    150. Thepnr says:

      This first Tory budget in 20 years will prove to be a disaster. Once the cuts start to bite there almost certainly will be a reaction from those most affected.

      You just can’t keep on hitting people with a big stick without expecting a reaction that you’d rather avoid. This budget is the most cruel I have ever saw, taking more money from the poorest in order to pay for the bankers and establishments mistakes is sickening.

      Just when will the English public wake up to what is happening especially those that never bothered to vote?

      Lemmings jumping off the cliff, I despair.

    151. Stone_Truth says:

      I just assumed it was satire Aldo was spewing from the 77th Brigade canteen.

    152. Grouse Beater says:

      Aldo: The labour party can make the Scottish people an offer they can’t refuse – all they have to do is clean up their act

      Ha ha! At least the poor bastard has a sense of humour, albeit warped!

    153. David says:

      Aldo says:
      9 July, 2015 at 5:11 pm
      “The tory guy on the news last night”

      Gonnae huv tae be merr specific, Wide-o, cos TV is hoachin’ wi’ Tories o’ all colours.

    154. gordoz says:

      “only be a matter of time before someone got nasty ??”

      No one got nasty – just called you out on the pro Labour line.

      Unless they suddenly adopt a clear ‘near federal’ independent stance they will get nowhere; your argument does not ‘hold water’ – if you don’t see that you are beyond help.

      Must have touched a nerve though ? 🙂

    155. Marco McGinty says:

      @Aldo says:
      “The tory guy on the news last night said It would actually reach 9.35 by the end of the parliament. That’s 19.5k approx. OT could take it to 20k+ fairly easily.”

      Ah, a Tory guy said it, so it must be true, and there’s no chance that it will ever be reversed!

      Anyway, your £9.35 per hour, based on a 40 hour week, still falls short of £19,500, never mind £20,000+, but I note you have now shifted the goalposts, and are using overtime to manipulate your figures.

    156. Grouse Beater says:

      Iain More: I blame secondly the Labour Party for not confronting the Neo Cons.

      Fair point – they believed Blair because he delivered (low attendance) election wins, and oor Broon embraced the entire neo-con phony philosophy, so what can we expect? Labour is still holding tight to that lunatic doctrine.

    157. gordoz says:

      Aldo – how does true blue Labour sound ? Is that more accurate ?

      Do you think Jimmy Reid would support Labour if he was around now,
      do you know who Jimmy Reid was ?

      Probably a nice guy, but your barking up the wrong tree with such a wacko pro Labour argument here. They are finished and its there own fault – no one elses.

    158. Aldo says:

      Did someone just hold up the Greek finance minister as an example of how to run an economy?!? Oh my!

      Also, QE is inflationary. It brings its own problems. The only way out of a debt crisis long term is to cut back on spending until you are living within your means. This approach is demonstrable as having worked for Britain over the last 5 years – we have improved on pretty much every economic indicator. Greece, on the other hand, is screwed and, when President Hollande of France tried to soak the rich, they all fled to London. His loss is our gain.

    159. Helena Brown says:

      With regard to Aldo, best starve him out. Another Tory and boy we could do without them right now.
      On the other hand are there any bookies taking odds on the Revolution?

    160. gordoz says:

      “Rednorth UK” think voting for a red turnip would be a better option than the Labour Party.

    161. Clootie says:


      If you have an ounce of sense you vote for principles/ policies/ trust / etc etc.

      The Labour Party tried to use the “Brand” name instead of doing any work.

      The biggest challenge they now have in recovery is the internet. The days of saying one thing in England and another in Scotland confident that a tame media would not report it have gone.

      How can you be right wing in the Midlands and left wing in Scotland?

      I note you only selected Independence as the alternative. What abut more devolution? At least 65% of Scots favour that BUT not the Labour Party branch in Glasgow (soon to be Edinburgh)

      The SNP didn’t steal Labour Party policies – they picked up those discarded by New Labour.

      …However I suspect you don’t really care about building a better society.

    162. Effijy says:

      Come on you lot!

      You can tell these statistics are all Lies and they make it easy for you to Identify them by prefixing words like :
      “George Osborne announced” or the word “Daily” is at the top of the page.
      They don’t do anything other than lie to us.

      Great work on this again Rev! Well Done!

      We have got to come up with some method of presenting the Rev’s reality checks to the John and Jane Doe Doh’s out there who still think the BBC and the Daily papers have some form of moral charter that they adhere to.

      Should SNP or Wings or Bella, etc take turns of placing a newspaper add that shows the Stats, like the Rev’s, that prove what Bull S*** the paper’s own columnists produce?

      I had a disappointing weekend where I encountered two long lost friends who each voted No as “at least they were getting by- unlike others?

      They just glance at the tormented headlines in the paper and the news bulletins and believe they must be giving out good advice.

      I’ve tried to educate them and asked them to check out this web site, but I just don’t think that they will.

      Independence, a Fair and Just society for all, is ours, if we can just get the truth of the matter in front of them.

      For beginners to these things, how can a government voted in with an English mandate to add further austerity cuts to the lower and middle classes save £Billions while suggesting that we are all now better of than we were?

      This square peg just doesn’t fit in this round hole!

      Over the last 2 parliaments, one Labour, one Tory, the Richest UK citizens have doubled their wealth in 10 years. These new measures will ensure that they can double their wealth again, but this time within 5 years.

      If any economy has a defined income, and one class is gathering wealth at this breakneck speed, then obviously
      the other classes have to pay for it.

      They have us focused on immigrants and people claiming welfare while they and their friends, such as Starbucks, Apple, Amazon, and Google avoid paying £Billions in Tax.

      I’d like to sort out that side of matters before we look at
      someone trying to live off £72.00per week on benefits and having to make cut backs.

    163. heedtracker says:

      The labour party can make the Scottish people an offer they can’t refuse – all they have to do is clean up their act and get busy hammering home the message I have suggested.

      hahaha, ha. They already did, last Sept 18, SLab stood with blue tory Project Fear, the ultimate offer you cant refuse.

      Then they shysted the whole of Scotland with their THE VOW fraud, and here we are, gits like you blethering sneaky creepy SLabour rubbish, hoping and praying you can maybe claw 10 or so Westminster MP’s next time.

      Not a chance in hell. Scotland knows full well we were robbed blind by red tory SLab.

    164. Grouse Beater says:

      Every budget for decades increased the UK’s black market.

      There are thousands of individuals, the out-of-work, the self-employed, and small businesses living by barter, cash-only deals, back pocket money, and VAT avoidance.

      Getting people back to work paying taxes by pulling up the social ladder is guaranteed to increase black market activity. How else do we survive?

    165. Grouse Beater says:

      Tax cuts voted for in the last election” reports the BBC news hack, overlooking Scotland entirely because whatever Scotland wants is irrelevant.

      The BBC is an impartial news gathering organisation” says the blind and deaf director general, content his ‘organisation’ is one of the biggest propaganda machines in the world.

    166. Cag-does-thinking says:

      In other news O/T Youngs are about to make a ghost town out of Fraserburgh transferring the remaining fish processing work in the main to Grimsby. That union dividend again….

    167. gerry parker says:

      “The labour party can make the Scottish people an offer they can’t refuse – all they have to do is clean up their act”

      Aye, like the Mears scandal. Haven’t heard of it yet?

      Just wait.

    168. James Barr Gardner says:

      When is the Rally?

    169. Sinky says:

      Cag at 6.28

      Yeah 900 jobs to go in the Blue Toon is a devastating blow.

      Do Wingers boycott Young’s Seafoods for closing their Scottish outpost or Sainsbury’s Fish for cancelling the contract?

    170. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @Nana Smith,
      You will like this – picked this up on Twitter from Peter Curran…

      “Catherine MacLeod
      Professor Donald MacLeod & Brian Wilson, two of UK’s best and most informed writers, sacked from West Highland Free Press. Sad & dreadful.”

      You should see the twitter feed – hilarious – all the batshit Unionist crazies are going mental.

      Shame for poor Brian – sacked after founding the WHFP all these years ago.

      And Prof Macleod – maybe God has forgiven those who voted Yes after all.

      Lol, Lol and Lol again – happy days!

    171. BrianW says:

      The current Tory Govt is just too shocking for words to be honest. I’m sure Gideon and his posh Bullingdon Buddies will be burning more £50 notes now indiscriminately..

      I’m surprised they didn’t just opt for burning the poor. That should do away with supporting them at all. (IDS had the baying bloodlust look of a Roman Emperor as another one was thrown onto the heap – oh I could swear!)


      @ yerkitbreeks 11:17am..

      I need to ask.. (and I’ve asked my Mam & Auntie – baith Banffshire quines) what does the Yerkit mean in your name?

    172. HandandShrimp says:

      Do Wingers boycott Young’s Seafoods for closing their Scottish outpost or Sainsbury’s Fish for cancelling the contract?

      Both? Sainsbury’s were bell ends during the referendum anyway I haven’t set foot in one since.

    173. kevin meina says:

      Heeded tracker 5.22pm We are going to have to get it quick while there is some left.Engineering companies reliant on oil are shedding jobs by the barrow load.If the downward spiral continues in current panic mode a skilled generation are going to be lost,and it won’t be the first.

    174. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Clootie at 5.55

      “At least 65% of Scots favour that BUT not the Labour Party branch in Glasgow (soon to be Edinburgh)”

      Not as simple as that. That only applies if Independence isn’t on the table. The only poll done since the referendum showed independence narrowly beating devo max in a three question contest.

      Time has passed for devo max anyway. It’s past news

    175. dakk says:

      Aldo. 5.51

      ‘ we have improved on almost every economic indicator ‘

      Lol , UK gov nearly doubled the National Debt from £800 billion to £1.5 Trillion in 5 years and that doesn’t include PFI debt or unfunded obligations like public sector pensions.

      If that’s your idea of success you’ll be a bankrupt ne’rdowell in no time 🙂

    176. The Moidart says:

      Aldo… Just a thought…. While you’re living the vida loca with your whopping 20k five years from now… Here’s a suggestion…Why don’t you Google the statistics for unfortunate souls who will have felt they had no future and resorted to taking their own lives due to the despair induced by living in abject poverty due to the current budget and the many to come over the previous five years under Tory hell?? First and last response for you from me as you’re clearly only here to wind decent people up and get a reaction from people. Perhaps you’re compiling page 52 of the dossier….Enjoy your cognac.

    177. Dan Huil says:

      Shock! Horror! Sacked Brian Wilson blames SNP… for everything really.

    178. Macart says:

      Yeah, Both Conservative and Labour’s economic stewardship has worked out so wonderfully well over the past forty years. Mibbie just me, but since the whole UK is up to its oxters in biblical debt and under this same stewardship Scotland’s own economic model has resulted in a share of this debt, then perhaps a change of management and model is well past due.

      Then of course there are those who win and lose from this situation. The clue is in the width of the rich/poor gap and the structure of the UKs economy. Heavily reliant on the services sector and in particular financial services. Huge, enormous wealth in a wealthy land and concentrated in the hands of a relatively small percentage of the population. When these people in this narrow sector screw up however and the economy tanks, just what is there to fall back on? Who pays the tab? What else is there? We’re not the manufacturing powerhouse of yore. Our exports won’t feed and finance the whole UK. So who wound up paying the tab and is continuing to do so to this very day?

      Yet we’re reliably informed the UKs economy is doing just peachy. Its on the up,dontchaknow and the deficit although not eradicated as promised five years ago is slowly being tackled. And the cost?

      Austerity Britain. Borne by? Not the financial sector, they got bailed out. Not the corporate fat cats. Their wares are international. They have a hard time in one country, they move on to the next. No both of those bodies are indeed just peachy. Still picking up their bonuses and bribes not to move elsewhere, because as we know, we have feck all else to fall back on.

      No, the cost of this recovery is borne by the public. A public that didn’t have control of macro economic levers, fiscal regulation, the machinery of decision making or direction of economic travel. We leave that to smart folk to sort out for us. How and ever when it turns out those folk aren’t so smart, just greedy, inept, corrupt, or deluded we pick up the bill regardless as we have always done.

      We didn’t have a choice before, but we do now.

      I certainly think we have a fair indication of who not to trust. But then being one of the simple plebs who’s just been told that they’re going to be four figures worse off this year I should mibbie leave it to those smart folk to decide for me. Y’know like the ones that dropped us in this omnishambles in the first place.

    179. heedtracker says:

      kevin meina, we’ll never get it. TeamGB will never give up control of the last actual heavy industrious they own and Scots oil will be syphoned away to be invested in England til it has gone for good.

      Scots oil is one of the giant drivers behind England keeping control of Scotland. The VOW fraud gave Scotland nothing but shite and EVEL makes sure that no Scots MP with a Scottish constituency will have any vote on how UK energy is managed.

      UK gits like this know full well that despite Scots oil tax revenues fluctuating, its all UKOK has left now.

      Which is why all you here from these sneering jeering bullshiters is Scots is oil is worse than worthless, but UKOK oil is their industrial jewel in the crown.

      Extracting and exploiting the resources and treasure of other countries is not easy but it is worth it.

    180. scott says:

      Sinky says:
      The Broch is not the Blue Toon,thats Peterhead

    181. Dan Huil says:

      Westminster has to borrow billions every month: unionists in Scotland praise the Westminster government for its financial rectitude.

    182. Taranaich says:

      We all expected this from the Tories, but even I’m taken aback by New Labour falling down and taking the pin without so much as throwing a punch:

      Every single day, my contempt for them sinks lower and lower.

    183. Dan Huil says:

      @macart 7.11pm. Excellent post, Macart.

    184. Grouse Beater says:

      Sacked Brian Wilson blames SNP… for everything.

      “I get around” had one inebriate assume it was a drinking song. 🙂

    185. Craig says:

      I am 42 yrs old and it took me 23 years to get to where I am and under Georgie boy yesterday has made me £80 better off

      I really do despair for those on the “bottom” of society where they haven’t a hope in hell, you can see companies like Wonga and Sunny really cashing in when people turn to them in desperation as banks won’t lend to them as they wouldn’t be able to afford the loan repayments

      Sickened to be part of the UK, Sickened to be part of the human race where it’s everyone for themselves nowadays.

    186. HandandShrimp says:

      I had a look at the Brian Wilson WHFP Twitter thing. The comments are hilarious. One gets the feeling that one only has to mention SNP to get this reaction

    187. Aldo says:

      How can labour be left wing in Scotland and right wing (or relatively right wing) in EngLand?

      Good question. The answer seems simple to me. Labour simply sets different policies for Scotland via its presence in the Scottish parliament. Should it receive criticism for having ‘double standards’, all it has to do is say “this is what Scotland wants and we are respecting democracy by giving it to them”.

      Further devolution is all fine and well provided it is done fairly (i.e. more powers for England, Wales etc), and doesn’t introduce independence by the back door (like FFA).

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 9 July, 2015 at 1:18 pm:

      “The median pay in Scotland is £21K . The median pay in the rest of the UK is £25K? All those London S/E higher salaries, banking HQ’s legal HQ’s civil service HQ, administration jobs,company HQ’s tourist attractions, infrastructure jobs. Etc. The Mall etc., funded by the rest of the country.”</I?

      Indeed and they all come complete with that nice we perk known as, "London weighting allowance", now set by Uncle Boris.

    189. Gary45% says:

      There is one thing more certain than death and taxes.

      A conservative government saying they are helping the ordinary workers of this country, will undoubtedly be more fiction than nonfiction.
      They could give everyone a £1,000,000 pay rise, but you could guarantee they would take £1,000,001 off in tax.


    190. nodrog says:

      Remember that UK Labour’s economic policy was near enough the same as the Tory economic policy prior to GE15. So those 13million family’s will be asking themselves today “Who could we have voted for to make our situation any better?”. I feel genuinely sorry for our English friends and neighbors because they had no one else to vote for who would have tried to give them a better life. We are indeed more fortunate North of the Border , roll on INDYREF2.

    191. Aldo says:

      As for disabled people killing themselves, this budget doesn’t touch benefits for the disabled.

      But if the SNP reckon Scottish disabled people are getting a raw deal, they can use the upcoming Smith powers to boost their welfare payments. They’ll have to raise tax to do it though. Will they have the bottle? Moreover, will it work? Or will England just become a magnet for Scottish people, businesses and jobs?

      The North of England says “yes” to Scottish tax raising powers :0)

    192. Robert Peffers says:


    193. HandandShrimp says:

      Further devolution is all fine and well provided it is done fairly (i.e. more powers for England, Wales etc), and doesn’t introduce independence by the back door (like FFA).

      I’m not fussy which door independence comes in…hell, the window will do.

    194. caz-m says:

      I watched the STV evening news at 6pm tonight to get the latest updates and opinions on yesterday’s budget and how it will affect Scotland.

      It never got a mention.

      So I turned over at 6.30pm to see if Reporting Scotland would have any information about the budget and again, nothing.

      Have these two biased broadcasters been given their orders not to mention the budget.

      Are they frightened it could stir up those nasty Nationalists again.

      It’s up to us to keep spreading the word.

    195. Aldo says:

      I think you need to cool your jets over indyref 2. It’s not happening – at least not for a very long time. Sovereignty and the constitution are reserved matters. We had our vote – it was a no. There is absolutely no reason why the British government would grant a second one. There is simply no pressure on them to do so legally, morally, economically or politically. They will simply refuse it. I seriously doubt the SNP want to hold one anyway as they would almost certainly lose it.

      You MIGHT get another one in about 15 or 20 years but if you’re going to win it you’ll need a long term strategy – sour grapes and continually challenging for a rematch wont cut it.

    196. ronnie anderson says:

      @ caz-m STV prime time viewing Susan Calman FFS. 27th letter from Bbc ha ha.

    197. Grouse Beater says:

      Aldo: The answer seems simple to me.

      With the emphasis on ‘simple,’ mind.

    198. Robert Peffers says:

      @Aldo says: 9 July, 2015 at 2:08 pm:

      “Oh, same planet I think – Earth. Just different decade / century :0)

      And there, Aldo, we have the operative words, “I think”?

      It indicates you are not really sure you are on the same planet Earth. “I think”, is usually accompanied by, “Therefore I am”, (Cogito ergo sum), “I think, therefore I am”, or even better “I am thinking, therefore I exist”). It is a philosophical proposition by René Descartes.

      The meaning of the Latin phrase is that thinking proves a thinker exists or the thinker is a sentient human being.

      However, your usage rather seems to indicates a certain uncertainty, as if you are not quite sure you actually are on the same planet Earth.

    199. IvMoz says:

      O/T Tommy Sheppard on QT tonight.

      Should be good.

    200. Nana Smith says:

      @Hoss Mackintosh

      Thanks for the heads up. The WHFP was a good read when it first started. Poor student writers like Brian with lofty ideals and grants, no student loans for them.

      My how they changed once their pockets were filled with union gold.

    201. The Moidart says:

      Waldo…. I don’t believe I specified disabled people. Unfortunately I can’t provide a statistic for welfare suicides caused by atos. Apparently statistics are not available. I think you would find there would be a lot of immigration if Scotland gets independence one day. I personally would be happy to welcome our English and Welsh cousins settle into a progressive, financially vibrant people orientated democratic nation. The polar opposite of the disgrace you so vehemently defend. As I said before waldo. Enjoy your whopping 20k. You can buy some hounds with it. And a nice red coat with shiny buttons. Toddle on old bean.

    202. Rock says:

      Aren’t the people of Scotland “sovereign”.

      I am sure we can easily get more than 50% of the Scottish electorate to sign a petition to reject the Westminster budget.

      Or does our “sovereignty” in reality have a value of zero?

      In which case we and our 56 SNP MPs can shout and scream as much as we like, but we can do absolutely nothing about this redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich.

      But don’t worry, we are “Better Together”, we will “pool and share” our sorrows.

    203. ScottieDog says:

      No I was talking about the new Greek finance minister who took over when syriza came to power.
      The ‘recovery’ you talk about in the UK refers to the period when austerity was reigned in. As I tried to tell you the Tories are trying to grow the economy through further expansion of private debt – the cause of the current crisis.

      Austerity took Greece from 140% public debt:GDP to 180%. This was all under the guidance of the IMF and the eurozone. So the Greeks have a right to feel pissed that after doing all they were asked, things got much worse. They finally realise that neo-liberal economics is phoney economics – the type thatcher adopted – which effectively destroyed the UK economy.

      Yes QE is inflationary when it doesn’t involve the productive economy. It was used to boost asset prices on the sticker exchange – to benefit – you guessed it – the wealthy.

      Our gain? You mean the London Ponzi scheme?
      Bank created money has been hugely inflationary – just have a look at the 3 fold increase in house prices in 15 years. You have been conned into thinking that inflation is a steady 3 percent because your education in economics goes no further than pages of the mail or telegraph.

      You got conned into ‘the economy is just like a household’ bullshit. Here’s a simple explanation from someone who predicted the 2008 recession..

    204. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Richie Venton, SSP, on the Budget:

    205. The Moidart says:

      And while we’re on the subject… I work with adults with learning disabilities and physical disabilities. Have done for eleven years. I don’t earn much unfortunately. But I’d be happy to pay more in taxes to help my fellow man. You see there’s more to life than money Waldo. Some of us are rich in other ways. Such as humanity.

    206. Rock says:


      “This first Tory budget in 20 years will prove to be a disaster.”

      From the previous thread, I am pleased that you finally seen the light and abandoned your efforts of embracing Tory voters in the hope of getting them to vote Yes next time.

      They would vote Yes over our dead bodies.

    207. Papadox says:

      The elite of the establishment have obviously instructed their lachies to ignore the Scots MPs except for Muddel, Murray and Carbuncle (who is to be saved at all costs in case he spills the beans).

      NO publicity is the only bad publicity, out of sight out of mind. Yes the character assassins have been let loose and EBC MSM have been called to heel.

      The privy council must be burning the midnight oil planning the demise of the SNP and SCOTLAND.

      IMO that’s the plan and they have plenty of time.

    208. Roll_On_2015 says:


      Appears that EVIL EVEL Westmidden is Revolting!

    209. JLT says:

      I posted a couple of things on Facebook last night (and one of them was my very last post on the eve of the Referendum …which using key points from Wings, have all come to pass).

      And what response did I get? Not a single peep from any of my ‘No’ friends. Not one f****** PEEP! And yet during the Referendum, if I posted anything, they were right in there finger pointing and badgering me or anyone else at every turn. Yesterday and today …tumbleweed!!!!

      They now know that they royally humped Scotland with yesterdays Budget revelations. Personally, I hope they choke on it for a couple of days, because they f****** need to! We told them for 3 years of what was to come should ‘No’ win the day. And for 3 years, all we got was ‘Rubbish! Mince! It won’t be like that! Scotland will be rewarded and recognised if we vote to stay!’ I hope many of them woke up to the fact that we weren’t lying to them, and that we were right. We were bloody right all the way!

      And as I pointed out to them (but not in a bad way) …this is just the beginning. If we do have a 2nd Referendum within a couple of years …remember everything that has passed since the 19th September 2014.

    210. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scott Borthwick says: 9 July, 2015 at 2:20 pm:

      ” … As we all know, all MPs have recently been awarded a pay increase of £7,000 each. If the SNP MPs publicly declared that they were going to donate their combined pay increase of £392,000 to a suitable Scottish charity or local foodbank, it would send a very strong message of solidarity with the people of Scotland”.

      I may be remembering it wrongly, Scott, but I seem to remember an Angus Robertson statement saying just that. However, I do remember that newscasts said MPs could not refuse the rise and, if memory serves, that was the reason Angus made the public statement that at least some of the SNP MPs would donate it to a charity of their choice. What I cannot remember if this was before or after the last GE so may have just applied to the then sitting members.

    211. Paula Rose says:

      A question – could the SNP take it as a given that if Scotland provided them with a majority in 2016 then that would be de facto a vote to dissolve the Union?

    212. Scott Borthwick says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      9 July, 2015 at 8:22 pm

      “I’m not fussy which door independence comes in…hell, the window will do.”

      Even doon the lum if we can get it on the statute book. We could cry it the Santa Clause.

    213. Aldo says:

      The problem with Greece is that It has entered into monetary union but not fiscal or political union with a group of far more powerful economies. What Greece needs is permanent wealth redistribution from the likes of France and Germany to pay down its debts and, basically, subsidise it forever more. If the EU were a single state, this is what would happen. But no one wants this – least of all the German people. The solution for Greece is to get out of the euro, re establish its own currency, devalue and recover. But no one in Greek public life is advocating this – flashy Syriza finance minister included.

      Incidentally, the SNP are advocating the same mess for Scotland – a poundzone with no political oversight and no redistribution of wealth to stabilise it. We are watching momentous events unfolding before us on the continent, yet the SNP seem immune to the lessons everyone should be learning from it.

    214. Robert Peffers says:

      @Paula says: 9 July, 2015 at 2:42 pm:

      “Even with the armour and golden locks, Osborne still looks evil. He looks like a Lannister”

      More like a, “Canister”, Paula, i.e. A right tube.

    215. Glamaig says:

      Every day that passes I feel more fired up to get out canvassing, not less. We have 120000 members in the pro indy parties, and we just need another 10% of the electorate to realise we are doomed to more of the same or worse from the Tories, for ever, unless we go for independence. We need to get information out there, simple incontestable facts, about what fantastic people and resources Scotland has and how we can make them work for us. Looking forward to Scunterbunnet’s campaign getting off the ground and giving the facts more visibility.

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @Aldo says: 9 July, 2015 at 2:49 pm:

      “Just going by John Swinney’s own (leaked) pronouncements on indy Scotland austerity, Ronnie”

      And we all know that, “Leaked”, documents are always stone cold truth, don’t we, Aldo? Just ask Alistair Carmichael for he swears by such leaked facts.

    217. Phronesis says:

      I’m surprised that they don’t just say what’s really on their minds- that poverty is a failure of character,it’s a moral weakness,paupers should search for whatever employment there is and if there are no jobs to be found its all down to their own irresponsible behaviour.

      Wasn’t the Conservative election slogan ‘let’s cut benefits for those who refuse to work’? Shouldn’t that apply to our UKOK government which isn’t working either? Where are the decent well paid jobs not the low paid menial jobs? Where is our sovereign wealth fund? Where is our manufacturing infrastructure?

      And when the talk is about not encouraging a ‘something for nothing’ culture – how does that square with a UKOK cabinet of whom many are trust babies and have been getting something for nothing all their lives.

      The Tories will do their worst and Scotland will prepare for Indy 2 – it is inevitable.

    218. Rock says:


      “And for 3 years, all we got was ‘Rubbish! Mince! It won’t be like that! Scotland will be rewarded and recognised if we vote to stay!’”

      “Personally, I hope they choke on it for a couple of days, because they f****** need to!”

      Sadly they won’t.

      The vast majority of No voters were sure that they would be ok.

      They weren’t frightened into voting No. They were always going to vote No because they were fine and they didn’t care much about those who weren’t.

      The No voters who will suffer are the ones who kept their blind faith in Labour. Their eyes have been opened.

      If we want to win next time, we must get them on our side.

      Together with those who still remained disenfranchised despite the massive efforts of the RIC, witnessed by the lower than expected turnouts in Glasgow and Dundee.

    219. Aldo says:

      Paula, there are multiple, insurmountable problems with your supposed route to independence. Elections are fought on a broad range of issues and ‘majority’ governments are often elected on an actual minority of popular support. The precedent of holding a referendum has already been set and is the accepted method for deciding issues of such import in the modern world.

      Finally – and this is your biggest problem – that thing in Edinburgh isn’t the government, though it may call itself such. Our government resides in London, in Westminster – and they will decide this. Holyrood can no more ‘declare’ independence than Stoneybridge toon cooncil.

    220. Fred says:

      @ Brian W, I think it means shite, or Aldo which-ever! 🙂

    221. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “A question – could the SNP take it as a given that if Scotland provided them with a majority in 2016 then that would be de facto a vote to dissolve the Union?”

      “UDI” in other words?

      Without the people specifically voting Yes in a referendum?

      I thought the SNP had made it perfectly clear that there will be no independence until the people vote for it in a referendum.

      Citing “sovereignty” an infinite number of times won’t make Scotland independent.

      When was the last time that a leading SNP politician stated that the people of Scotland were “sovereign”?

      Robert Peffers? (In less than 10 words for god’s sake).

    222. Iain More says:

      Meanwhile back on planet Earth, 900 jobs going in Peterhead. So much for better the gither! Aye the Referendum and the GE are well out of the way.

      So much for this mythical creature called the economic recovery, tell that to those losing their jobs and soon to be hammered as work shy wasters Mr Troll!

      Fit economic recovery?

    223. heedtracker says:

      Holyrood can no more ‘declare’ independence than Stoneybridge toon cooncil.

      For now:D

    224. Still Positive. says:

      @Paula Rose 9.44

      As far as I am aware a motion that a majority of MSPs and/or MPs would have to be agreed at conference to have a mandate for independence. I plan to speak to my MSP about the possibility of bringing this up at branch level.

      I don’t know, however, if there would be problems with the UN recognising this.

    225. Dal Riata says:

      Ignore that trolling-by-numbers eejit Aldo.

    226. Robert Peffers says:

      @Aldo says: 9 July, 2015 at 3:56 pm:

      “This wasn’t really a tory budget.”

      Isn’t it time for your Brigade 77 shift to change yet, Aldo?

      BTW: Your script needs changed it seems out of date.

    227. galamcennalath says:

      Paula Rose says:
      “… could the SNP take it as a given that if Scotland provided them with a majority in 2016 then that would be de facto a vote to dissolve the Union?”

      IMO Here’s how I think it will play out.

      The Scotland Bill will fail miserably to deliver anything like what was promised in order to swing Indyref1.

      The SNP will stand in 2016 on a ticket to negotiate what was promised. They will secure an overwhelming mandate.

      This will be make your mind up time for Cameron et al. You deliver on your promises, or we move on to Indyref2.

      I suspect WM may have already given up on keeping Scotland in the Union. Lying, scaremongering and empty promises won’t work a second time, and they know this. Independence around 2019.

    228. Aldo says:

      Personally, I’m happy that people will need to get out and work, pay their way and contribute to society. In my line of work, I see the single biggest threat to civilised society as being the bloated welfare state. There is not a single one of us who doesn’t know at least one family that is on the take and ripping the pish out of the country. There isn’t a single one of us that has marvelled at delinquent culture or the seemingly complete lack of British people in the service / agricultural industries (this despite massive unemployment figures for the country).

      I want people out working. It’s good for them. It’s good for all of us. Children grow up respecting property, education, the value of money. I desperately want to return to this. We should end all handouts unless people are genuinely out of work or sick or disabled. It should not be a way of life. Benefits should be the exception, not the rule – and paid in vouchers (not cash), so the money doesn’t get pissed up the wall.

    229. Glamaig says:

      Nana Smith at 9:48

      Brilliant. I’m guessing that did not feature on the BBC Parliament channel.

    230. Robert Peffers says:

      @Aldo says: 9 July, 2015 at 4:06 pm:

      “Labour in Scotland are all over the place on this and running scared from the SNP.”

      What! All one of them? You get dafter with each comment you post. Labour in Scotland can’t make decisions as their one MP has to do exactly what he is told by head office in London.

    231. Les wilson says:

      Just checking what’s new on this comment, thought we were not going to feed the trolls. yet……

    232. Scott Borthwick says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      9 July, 2015 at 9:40 pm

      “I may be remembering it wrongly, Scott, but I seem to remember an Angus Robertson statement saying just that. However, I do remember that newscasts said MPs could not refuse the rise and, if memory serves, that was the reason Angus made the public statement that at least some of the SNP MPs would donate it to a charity of their choice. What I cannot remember if this was before or after the last GE so may have just applied to the then sitting members.”

      You may well be right Robert, and I am aware that there has been some talk of MPs doing this individually. Indeed, the BBC reported on 30 June that Conservative MP for Windsor Adam Afriyie (who is worth anything between £50 and £100 million depending on which way the wind is blowing) called MPs who do not want their pay rise as embarrassing. He sounds like a nice fella.

      Anyway, I was talking more about a concerted stand rather than individuals quietly helping. If backbenchers are, in Adam Afriyie’s own words, the ‘heroes of all the voters’, they’re going to have to start acting like it. Maybe the SNP group could be the ones to lead the charge. I’m not talking about a party diktat, I’m talking about the group coming together to make a collective decision to make a positive, practical difference which would also stand as an example of genuine opposition to Conservative policy.

    233. Grouse Beater says:

      Worth repeating:

      Dal Riata says: Ignore that trolling-by-numbers eejit, Aldo.

    234. maxxmacc says:

      The Tories have always indulged in class war when they get into power and this budget is no different. However something has to be done about Tax Credits as it is the most bonkers system ever to have been inflicted on the british people, and hopefully it will be wiped out sooner or later.
      People should also recognise the interesting, and dare i say brave attempt by Osborne to bring the minimum wage up to a decent standard by 2020. Small business and hard pressed councils will struggle to find the extra cash needed for a 30pc wage rise for the lowest paid workers over the next 5 years.
      And yet none of this will really make any financial sense as long as the tories allow their pals in big business to avoid paying tax to the tune of almost 100 billion pounds per year!

    235. Aldo says:

      Robert, the MSPs can act independently on devolved issues without it causing the national UK labour party any problems. They should therefore endorse the popular measures introduced by the SNP. They will then become “SNP minus indy”. This will eventually find a broad appeal. Scotland will choose cushtyness over the abyss.

    236. Glamaig says:

      Scotland has more than 80% of the UK fish stocks, and we’re closing a processing plant open? WTF?

    237. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scott Borthwick says: 9 July, 2015 at 5:21 pm:

      “My thanks, GB. Aldo is certainly a very busy (and very dull) boy.”

      Yeah! Scott, we all know he’s a troll but there’s nothing much else most of us are doing just now and after the Tennis Doubles there’s nowt much else to do.

    238. ScottieDog says:

      I for one was not in favour of a pound zone and have always advocated monetary independence, however if you are trying to compare Scotland to Greece in such a setup, where England is Germany’s equivalent you are way way out. In terms of its physical capital per head Scotland would be on a par if not advanced. Why do you think there was such a clamour to keep Scotland in the UK. I agree full independence must include monetary independence.

      The UK as it stands has been reduced to capitalism without the capital. It’s now reduced to the expansion of fiat currency as debt and shadow banking – guaranteed by the tax payer, kicking the can down the road until the next minsky moment.

      The UK failed to invest in its industrial infrastructure in the 80s. The media at the time reported our workforce as too lazy and unionised. Germany’s public debt was far higher at the time because it’s govt took a stake in its manufacturing industry infrastructure and made it world class. Yes they ran a higher deficit to take a stake in its future. Look how it turned out.

      As for Greece, you say, no one in public life is advocating coming out of the euro – quite possibly because they don’t want a panic. As you say (and as they may well be thinking) it would be for the best. My only concern is that the neo-lib (Osborne types) might go out to destroy a country who proves categorically that austerity is deflationary and doesn’t work.
      As for Germany, there one examples of a country that defaulted on its debt and never had to pay it back.

      You mentioned that QE is inflationary. It’s not if it is spent into the productive economy and absorbed into job creation, products, services, rather than asset speculation…

      Yes I would like monetary independence for Scotland primarily because the UK economy is moribund. It’s monetary system is run by private bankers who’s very raison d etre is recession because in times of economic crises, wealth isn’t destroyed, it is merely transferred to the banks.

      Banks are allowed to create all but 3% of the money in our economy and direct it where they like. It gives them more economic power than govt, knowing that they are underwritten by the tax payer. It’s a moral hazard.

      Thatcher decimated ours and we have been selling off our assets ever since. Just looks at our current account deficit.

    239. Jim says:

      Aldo says:
      9 July, 2015 at 3:56 pm

      Minimum wage raised substantially against the wishes of mega corporations like Tesco and ASDA, who begged the govt not to do it.

      What did Tesco beg the Government not to do?

      I think you will find that Tesco pays well above the minimum wage for it’s workers and much more for specialist jobs and has done for years.

      Please get your facts right.

    240. Aldo says:

      Here’s how I think it will go:

      Polls still show the no option in the lead by April 2016. The SNP, spooked by this, decide to fudge the referendum issue with a “maybes aye, maybes naw” and a lot of talk about ‘material change’. The Holyrood parliament of 2016-21 will pass with plenty of threats and bluster but, ultimately, no independence referendum. SNP get chucked oot in ’21.

      You heard it here first!

    241. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 9 July, 2015 at 6:45 pm:

      “Do Wingers boycott Young’s Seafoods for closing their Scottish outpost or Sainsbury’s Fish for cancelling the contract?”

      Why on Earth would we boycott, Young’s? Young’s are the victims here not the baddies. I also gave up the supermarkets that threatened to either leave Scotland or put up Scottish prices as these were the baddies and you will note they are all suffering a fall in profits in Scotland. If memory serves did not Sainsbury’s just transfer their contract to a Fife company so not taking it out of Scotland.

    242. ArtyHetty says:

      Okay can we get some intelligent conversation going and ignore the dull, boring, talking tripe troll.

    243. Lou Nisbet says:

      No one seems to mention and certainly not the MSM – in the small print of the budget – Working Tax Credits are ENDED for workers without children. This means that thousands if not millions of small businesses and NO businesses in the future can take advantage of this.

      It’s madness.

      At one stroke Gideon has closed down the possibility of thousands of small businesses and also sent thousands into penury and possible bankruptcy.

    244. Robert Peffers says:

      @Aldo says: 9 July, 2015 at 5:30 pm:

      “I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone got nasty on it.”

      Not nearly so nasty as your insulting dribbling’s, Aldo. We had you tagged as a troll from your first post. So now you have achieved what your masters pay you for, you can turn your shift over to your relief and bone up on your next script.

      If you had been a genuine commenter, who only had different views, you would have been tolerated and actually debated with. As the constant stream of Trolls, or even perhaps a small select group with several different tags, who appeared here shortly after the announcement about 77 Brigade seem all to sing from the same hymen sheet you are neither hard to spot nor hard to string along.

      It is what we do, if the person is a genuine commenter who wants to debate, then we debate. If they are, like you, only here to insult our intelligence, we string them along until we tire of their stupidity.

      Now run along and join your little trolling pals – There’s a good chap.

    245. Chic McGregor says:

      Scotland is a resource rich country.

      In all the basic sectors required for national viability, food and drink, timber production, quarrying materials and energy, Scotland is in surplus. And we are not short of icing sectors either, life sciences, software development, electronics, heavy engineering, tourism and many others.

      England on the other hand, has to net import nearly half its food and drink, around 85% of its timber and on electricity over 10% of that which they consume.

      Such a stark resource to population differential between Scotland and England you would think would be abundantly clear. However by an intricate and lovingly crafted miasma of accounting tricks, tricks which would not exist if Scotland were independent, that massive difference in pro rata resource between the two countries is reduced in monetary terms by outrageous massaging and manipulation and of course, the willing assistance of a compliant MSM, the Treasury, the OBR etc.

      My advice is that for once you should not follow the money, which has been laundered and squandered, but instead look to raw production levels to see the real story of where an independent Scotland would stand.

      If you are going to look at money, I would suggest doing so by looking at trade balance figures with overseas countries, which are harder to fiddle, rather than trying to decipher the establishment trickery used in internal UK accounting.

      For example, England net imports well over £20 billion pounds annually for food and drink alone. That figure dwarfs oil revenue, even in a good year.

      Even then, trade figures can be fiddled by English port of exit export estimates not properly allocating Scottish produce or packaging of Scottish produce in England.

      Of course, as part of the Union Dividend, despite being in food and drink surplus, Scotland must ‘pool and share’ that massive net annual grocery bill, a bill which amounts to about £1000 per family.
      Money which leaves the British economy and which must of course be paid before anything else can be paid for.

      Yet we all ‘know’, because the MSM told us so, that in an independent Scotland grocery prices would be a lot higher.

      Similarly, if you listen to Brit propaganda, Scotland would be reliant on English electricity when independent. Must be true, the MSM said so.

      What is the truth there?

      Again, look at the production figures. From the DUKES report (2013) it can easily be calculated, in terms which everyone should be able to understand, that in that year Scotland generated 26 units of electricity per person per day.
      The figure for England was 13.7 units of electricity per day, almost half on a pro rata basis.

      England had to import 30 tWh of electricity, well over 10% of their consumption, half from France and half from Scotland.

      Again various tricks using subsidies, connection charges, tax vouchers and the like, with MSM help, disguise the real story.

      And England’s on shore wind power nimbyism is as internationally shocking as their pursuit of off shore is bewildering. On shore is the lowest cost renewable available (where hydro and geothermal is unavailable) whilst off shore is the highest (bar none).

      Of course we all know that the Green and Pleasant Land is special and must remain unsullied by such monstrosities as on shore turbines but England’s off shore installed capacity already, through the extra subsidies it requires, is adding 7p per off shore unit , the equivalent of around £40 per year to the average electricity bill. And further capacity already consented will triple that.

      Note that is 7p per unit more than the, up till now, on shore subsidy (which is disappearing, so that differential could well become 15p).

      To be clear, if the current 4.2 GW off shore already installed in English waters had simply been installed on shore in England instead, it would cost the taxpayer about £1.5 billion a year less than it does right now. It is quite simply, a nimby bill we must all ‘pool and share’.

      The basic message is look beyond UK accounting trickery to the raw production and overseas trade balance sheets to see the real story.

    246. Aldo says:

      Do you dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as a troll?

      I am not here to wind folk up. I’m genuinely interested in why you folks, having grown up and lived in the same country as I did, somehow think that the cure to its ills is separation + socialism (national socialism :0)

      Because I think that’s pretty wide of the mark tbh (as you know). I see a country that needs to take a pride in its British heritage – which has brought us so much – and, above all, toughen up! We may well become the first country ever to tear itself apart over arguments about welfare. Not culture, not language or politics or religion – but trying to get doleys an extra few quid.

      I am genuinely mystified and horrified by it and need to understand where you people are coming from.

    247. Thepnr says:


      From the previous thread, I am pleased that you finally seen the light and abandoned your efforts of embracing Tory voters in the hope of getting them to vote Yes next time.

      They would vote Yes over our dead bodies.

      I would embrace anyone who would change their vote to Yes no matter their political persuasion. Whether a Tory or Himalayan Yeti, I would want to persuade them to vote Yes.

      In reality, I would probably have more success with the Yeti but such is life.

    248. Bittie Glakit says:

      Tommy Shepherd talking a lot of sense on Question Time. Good man!

      Here are some more images based on our political tales for your amusement.

    249. Chic McGregor says:

      Shepard, on the few chances he was allowed, got a few truths over to audience applause. He won’t be back on QT for a while.

      However, as Frank Carson used to say, “There’s more”.

    250. Rob James says:

      Waldo, Aldo or whatever your name is:

      I have had the misfortune to arrive home late this evening and was therefore unable to reply earlier. However, by the time I read through all the posts, I quickly realised that the content of your correspondence was woefully inaccurate. I suggest that you try reading the following:

      Economics for Half Wits by I.M Broke

      Now go away and do some studying until you have an actual scooby about the realities of the world you live in, ’cause it ain’t the same planet that we are all on.

    251. Thepnr says:


      I am genuinely mystified and horrified by it and need to understand where you people are coming from.

      Aldo you are a bullshitter, I will never address you again other than to tell you to FUCK OFF.

    252. Grouse Beater says:

      Aldo: I am not here to wind folk up.

      The sheer crassness of arriving in an independence site to lecture the membership about how wrong-headed they are demands a kick up the arse in response. To do it by puerile, dumbass, naïve, simplistic opinion drags down normal intelligent discussion to a useless, base level.

      The notion we need a different view, challenged, when day after day we challenge our own, is offensive.

      Those who answer you do so because they can’t believe anybody can be so ill-informed and stupid.

      Every few months some like you pops up to annoy and drag the discussion back to the 19th century and England’s might and power.

      Go away!

    253. Robert Peffers says:

      @Aldo says: 9 July, 2015 at 5:51 pm:

      “Did someone just hold up the Greek finance minister as an example of how to run an economy?!? Oh my!”

      Look, Aldo. You’re just too dim to even attempt to debate on this forum. In the first place the neo-con system of finance was properly explained up thread a bit and you did not even notice.

      As to your idiocy about the Greeks – have you not realised the present incumbent is not the one who caused the problem? He’s new to the job. In actual fact the fault lies with the EU lot who bent the rules and allowed the Greeks to join the Euro when any sane person knew they did not meet the EU criterion.

    254. Capella says:

      @ BrianW
      Yerkit means grabbed up. To yerk something is to grab and pull. At least in my part of the NE that’s what it means.

    255. The Moidart says:

      Waldo….. Sorry but I think your union jack boxers are too tight and are cutting off the oxygen to your brain son. I don’t see the same country you claim to. Our country was already ripped apart in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. In the name of the “great “Britain you refer to. We on here sometimes disagree. All families do. But here are some words to Google that might help you understand us. Empathy. Sympathy. Understanding. Humanity. Tolerance. Fairness. Your views come across as narrow minded and your narrative emphasises that. But I believe every post aimed at you is a wasted post. We should be talking about relevant issues as we always do. If you’re genuinely curious?? Read the posts and refrain from commenting for a while. Use the time to Google why austerity doesn’t work…or something.

    256. Effijy says:

      Taxi for Aldo Murphy!

      The meters running. Good night

    257. The Moidart says:

      Rob James.. To be fair to the boy his names Aldo. I call him Waldo as it’s an abbreviation of Waldorf. It’s time to dim the lights. It’s time to get things started on the muppet show tonight….

    258. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scott Borthwick says: 9 July, 2015 at 9:47 pm

      “Even doon the lum if we can get it on the statute book. We could cry it the Santa Clause.”

      I’ll take it even if it floats in up the cludgie and we call it the Sanitary Clause.

    259. msean says:

      Obviously a troll there,the language used tells us that “separation” “tearing ourselves apart over welfare” (its not about welfare,although it seems that uk bettertogether policies got us where we are)”national socialism”,(conflating Scots with nazis makes you sound stupid and childish,stuck in a copy of the auld warlord or victor) time to grow up now.

      All that minimum wage stuff lol,its 5 years away (yes, FIVE years) good to know that everything will at 2015 prices in 2020. Sounds like that jam tomorrow stuff but again without mentioning which tomorrow. You must have been living on planet tory for years,because folk in Scotland have learnt a lot in the last few years,including how the economy works amongst other things.

    260. The Moidart says:

      Anyway guys I’m on a sleepover and need to get a kip. Thanks Stuart. Keep up the good work. Night night people. Even you Aldo. I practice what I preach. Tolerance.

    261. msean says:

      He is an unusually late troll,must be working from home today and upset with the tube. They mostly apear during office hours.

    262. Graeme Doig says:


      Great stuff from Calum Kerr.

      When he stated that the SNP were ‘not here to agitate for independence’ i noticed at least one of his colleagues indicating the contrary.

      I’m not sure how much our representatives will actually need to agitate. Better just to let WM do most of the talking. Let them do all the shovelling.

      I think The 56 are doing us proud.

    263. Petra says:

      @ leginge at 2:13 pm

      Many thanks for that link leginge. One that I’ll copy and paste to my little archive of data.

      It just sums up the Media situation that we have been facing for so long in Scotland. The GREATEST obstacle that we have to overcome to acquire our Independence. If the MSM had been truthful I reckon that over 70% of Scots (ALL permitted to vote) would have voted for Independence ….. 10% rise on the Greek vote carried out within a week or so of being notified of such and faced with hellish media bias and scaremongering. Scotland with so many (more) resources and the only country in the EU known to be balancing its books … thanks to Mr Swinney …. would have said yes too.

      Great how the Greek people have demanded that an investigation be carried out in relation to their biased MSM and this is being dealt with so promptly. Corrupt journalists on the run and bleating about freedom of speech.

      Here in the UK, a so-called democratic country, we have absolutely no means of dealing with a dictatorial Government, corrupt politicians and a manipulative, biased MSM. At the end of the day we are totally gagged and bound. Thanks to this site we all contribute to educating and enlightening each other and hopefully this will eventually lead to positive change.

    264. Thepnr says:

      @Nana Smith

      Thanks for that, I thought it was excellent particularly the second half. Every reader of wings should watch that.

      We can have no fears that the 56 are doing the very best they can in support of Scotland and her people.

      Ta very much.

    265. smithie says:

      Aldo says, “I see a country that needs to take a pride in its British heritage – which has brought us so much”.
      Want to expand on that mate? WTF are you talking about

    266. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rock says: 9 July, 2015 at 10:16 pm:

      “UDI” in other words?”

      No Rock that statement only applies to your words for what others are commenting upon is not UDI. That concept is yours alone.

      So don’t you ever listen, Rock?

      Do you never answer pertinent questions?

      Have you always had a closed mind?

      I asked you a question several threads age after pointing out you were in error in what you imagine the meaning of UDI, (“UNILATERAL Declaration of Independence”, was.

      I’ll tell you again. The definition of the term, “Unilateral”, by the Oxford Dictionary is : –
      unilateral (adj). performed by or affecting only one person, or party.

      I’ve no idea what you imagine UDI means but what is being mooted is not one person nor is it one party. It is the legal, democratic, settled will of a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland, from any party or none, to withdraw their legal sovereignty from the bipartite union.

      A bipartite union between two equally sovereign Kingdoms.

    267. msean says:

      @12:53 🙂

    268. David says:

      “trying to get doleys an extra few quid.”
      This comment is beyond the pale, Aldo.

      I’ll repeat what Moidart said to you above:
      “here are some words to Google that might help you understand us. Empathy. Sympathy. Understanding. Humanity. Tolerance. Fairness. Your views come across as narrow minded.”

    269. Petra says:

      @Chic at 11:29 pm .. Spot on Chic.

      As to Aldo why call him a troll? Visit other sites and see what the concept of ‘troll’ really means … they are inundated with them: often just very ignorant indeed and disgusting.

      We don’t have people like that visiting this site at all or maybe Stu just excludes them? I don’t know but I don’t think we can go on and on generally talking to and agreeing with each other on here.

      We need people who don’t agree with us to visit this site. We surely have to debate if for no other reason than combating their point of view with valid facts and in turn hopefully getting no voters to change their minds.

      If we want to get our Independence we have to win over at least 6% of the electorate next time round that is 216,000 people. If we want to win 55% of the vote that equates to 360,000 people and 60% of the vote equates to 540,000 people. No mean feat and we have to ask ourselves how many of the 216,000 to 540,000 people are we winning over on here? And yes before anyone points it out to me I know many people take hard data from here and disseminate it elsewhere to great effect.

      (I’m on my IPad so hope I’ve got the figures right).

      I was reading The National yesterday and an ex-pat living in Chicago said that the YES voters attitude online (here?) towards NO voters was extremely off-putting to say the least ” smug and self-righteous, calling them ("Tractor" - Ed)s, asking if they’re happy now at what the Tories are doing to Scotland’ and so on. We are coming across now as being ”superior, arrogant and holier than thou” and are driving potential YES voters away. He said that we have to get over the Referendum result, stop blaming NO voters, move on and put up a strong argument to win them over.

      Just saying but hopefully food for thought.

    270. Scott Borthwick says:

      Chic McGregor says:
      9 July, 2015 at 11:29 pm

      “Scotland is a resource rich country.”

      Brilliant post, Chic. Many thanks. I wonder whether this should form the basis of a headlined article on here. It would be a great shame if it was lost amongst the comments.

      I recall years ago reading an article on how much Scotland could profit by exporting some of its water to England. Ever since Boris suggested that water should somehow be England’s by right, I have been feeling increasingly nervous about that resource in particular.

    271. Macart says:

      @ Chic 11.29

      Nice one Chic, cracking post.

    272. leslie says:

      in 2005 i retired medically after 13 years paying tax & N I
      18 years at my last firm Tesco
      Deformed hip ( deemed at the time debilitating degenerative progressive )
      Fused spine ( deemed at the time debilitating degenerative progressive )
      and have since aquired arthritic knees
      was on Incapacity Benefit £104 (approx) pw
      healed by ATOS 2012 won 15 points at tribunal but still lost the DWP didnt apply there own regulations re repeat mobility reg 29 & 35
      so deemed fit for work however unemployable through permanent illness
      2005 debilitating degenerative progressive
      think theres a little clue there somwhere

      NOW in the W R A G group on E S A £21 pw
      less of course the enforced £8 council tax and the £14 bedroom tax

      the bedroom .Having 6 grandchildren every weekend we have either my sons 3 children or my daughter 3 children otherwise due to mobility problems i would probably not get to see them

    273. Grouse Beater says:

      Petra: We need people who don’t agree with us to visit this site.

      That is patronising. We disagree with each other all the time. The only consensus here is the enemies of democracy need exposed, and we want real independence for Scotland. All the rest gets debated every day.

      This is a site to exchange ideas, and discuss solutions. We have no need of self-appointed guardians of neo-con orthodoxy to tell us we should vote for them and shut up.

    274. scottieDog says:

      @Aldo “I’m genuinely interested in why you folks, having grown up and lived in the same country as I did, somehow think that the cure to its ills is separation + socialism (national socialism :0)”

      I probably thought along similar lines to you about 8-10 years ago. Then I decided that I needed to educate myself because to me there was a disconnect between what I was experiencing and what I was being told.
      As for socialism, you still believe you live in a free market capitalist country? Even when the govt underwrites the stock exchange. Now that sound a bit like socialism to me.

      “I see a country that needs to take a pride in its British heritage – which has brought us so much – and, above all, toughen up! We may well become the first country ever to tear itself apart over arguments about welfare. Not culture, not language or politics or religion – but trying to get doleys an extra few quid.”

      Taking pride in heritage. If applied that to scotland I would be labelled by your media as dyed in the wool nationalist. Ok you’re a British nationalist. That’s fine also.

      As for the country tearing itself apart. People such as yourself seem to credit snp with far too much. The last 3 decades of neo-liberal ism destroyed the uk, not Alex salmond.

      Toughen up? Why don’t you wise up and stop being so lazy. All we hear are sound bites you lifted from MSM papers owned by non-dom billionaires who pay zero uk tax. Do you think they are telling you the truth?

      “I am genuinely mystified and horrified by it and need to understand where you people are coming from.”

      I’m sure similar comments were made when galileo told people they got it wrong.

      Its because you have been brainwashed by ideology driven media. You haven’t listened to any explanations you have been given here. You still spout the stu

    275. BrianW says:

      @ Capella 11:55pm.

      Thanks for doric translation, and putting me out my misery (i can tel ma mither

      Thanks again.

    276. GallusEffie says:

      Moidart @9.04

      I spent far too long last night trying to work out how to post a photo of my son, or a link to it here that has been getting many kind comments on Twitter and was also posted by Yes Giffnock on Facebook.

      So I’ll just say that if you go to my page @GallusEffie you’ll see a handsome young man, “The Bold Joff” who lives with Lowe Syndrome, an ultra rare, life-threatening, life-limiting congenital disorder that affects males. Joff has multiple and profound physical, learning and sensory disabilities and complex health care needs, including double incontinence, epilepsy and renal tubular acidosis or Fanconi syndrome of the kidneys. He cannot read, write, talk and is registered blind. He’ll be 21 in a few weeks’ time. We also have two lovely daughters, aged 22 and 14.

      In his photo, where I giggled like a loon trying to stage him to hold a piece of paper with a message on it, he wanted to eat it, throw it away, clap the two sides together, stare at anywhere but the front ( he doesn’t “get” photos )It was prompted by the proposal by Jeremy Hunt to label medications worth over £20 with their cost, and a strap line of “Funded by the UK taxpayer”

      The message reads:
      “WM want you to know how much I cost you.
      Not what value I bring”
      #Bold Joff

      As a family, the budget won’t affect us much, but I take no comfort from that knowing that 1000s of families are continuing to be hammered by austerity ideologies that make sure that instead of living, people are struggling daily to focus on eating, heating and having a roof over their heads instead of having some things some times to lift us out of the grind.

      Our life with Joff is not easy, he needs round the clock care and support and has done all his life. The struggles to get services and equipment have been constant and epic. Since leaving school he has attended a day service for adults with profound and multiple disabilities and am grateful for the fact that at every stage of his life, he’s been surrounded by people who care, love and respect him, and have delivered that care with patience, flair and dignity.

      So thank you Moidart for being the kind of person that families like mine rely on to support our sons and daughters and give them a life, and not just an existence.

      Thank you one and all who have ever paid tax and NI to help provide us with the services and benefits like his DLA and my crap-but-necessary Carer’s Allowance, that have supported us.

      The importance of the social contract of help that has been a strength of the UK from the last century is being eroded daily and I believe that Scotland can and must have the autonomy to arrange our own affairs in our own way, where we care for each other no matter what support we need.

      Surely that’s what YES is about?

    277. The Moidart says:

      Galluseffie.. It’s 9.51 and I’m currently on a busy bus heading home from my sleepover. Your post has humbled me deeply and unfortunately I can’t read it all just yet as I’m slightly taken aback and my sight is a bit blurred with moisture after your post. Rest assured I will read it in full when I get home. U never have to thank me. I chose the job i do after my grandfather died of cancer. He raised me since I was born. I just wanted to help people as I couldn’t help him. I will post when I’m home. My heart goes out to you as I’m sure most of our friends on here does. I bet your son is the happiest little boy u could ever meet. Thank you so much. Speak soon. Xx

    278. Fred says:

      @ Nana, thanks for the Calum Kerr speech. Liked the Flodden crack, the guy who returned with the flag was a hero, the solitary LibDem who returned is a lying toad & looks it!

      Provan SNP picnic at Hogganfield Loch tomorrow at 1.30. 🙂

    279. Macart says:

      @Galluseffie 9.04am

      “Surely that’s what YES is about?”

      Folks should read that post.

      Many thanks effie.

    280. Luigi says:

      Fred says:

      10 July, 2015 at 10:33 am

      the guy who returned with the flag was a hero, the solitary LibDem who returned is a lying toad & looks it!

      That’s the ugliest toad I have ever seen! 🙂

    281. “biggest robbery of the British people in a lifetime.”

      Sorry have to correct you there, the banks bailout was the biggest robbery of the “British” people.

      Google Iceland jails the bankers! Iceland done it the right way, we never and it’s coming again, the EU passed laws stating that bankers bail ins are LEGAL!!!

    282. The Moidart says:

      Galluseffie..Two apologies are in order. One for the late reply. Sorry ???? I’ve spent the last two hours assisting my friend with a legal matter. Secondly I referred to the bold joff as a little boy. Sorry ???? I’ve been on your site and he’s an amazing young man. I misread your very much appreciated post through watery eyes. Joff is a credit to you and your all a credit to the bold joff. Giffnock yes?? Here’s where it gets kinda spooky.. The company who employ me are based in.. Giffnock. Lol ???? Best of luck with everything and please keep me informed of everything. Speaking with a full heart ? Scott

    283. The Moidart says:

      David…preaching to the unconverrtable my friend…Aldo is now busy trying to construct her case for taking over the running of slab for the next nine months or whatever they have left. Lol ???? Macart… We have to put all other differences aside and unite against a common cause. Solidarity will come with compassion and tolerance. We will put genuinity into the tainted and misused phrase “better together ” time to take it back and show them what being yes truly represents. Scott

    284. David Wardrope says:


      some interesting posts from you there. Aldo seems to have stopped responding to you, can’t imagine why…

    285. Stoker says:

      Nana Smith posted:
      “WOW!! Calum Kerr maiden speech”

      Cheers, Nana, and made on the birthday of my eldest.
      Calum’s my MP and proud doesn’t even begin to cut it.
      Now go and stick it to them calum.

    286. Macart says:

      @ Moidart

      Well said.

    287. GallusEffie says:

      Moidart – you have no reason to apologise whatsoever.

      I know you said you do what you do cos it’s in your bones, but you and I both know that to do it well, you have to truly have the heart for it. I’m sure your grandpa would be very proud that you’re continuing to express the love you have for him in the compassionate care of vulnerable people. Hat tipped.

      As for calling Joff a wee boy, well, he is timeless in mind and spirit. He’s my secret weapon/fountain of youth.

      So many spooky things have happened to us as a family, it’s got to the stage where I almost expect them, so I’m glad we have that wee connection.

      Macart @10.58

      Thank you for your sweet reply. I know that from sharing information about the legend that is the Bold Joff that people are broadly very kind and supportive. I like that shared humanity. You get the odd zoomer, but I guess this community knows all about that!

      I visit Wings daily, often more than once a day, yet I don’t often remember to read the comments. When I do, I’m always please to see so many rational, clever and funny responses to Stu’s posts. It’s been a relief not to limit myself to 140 characters a pop, and I’m no great fan of FB by and large, with some exceptions.

      I’ve begun a blog, but as it’s new and I’m not famous, it can feel a bit like “a goose honking at the moon” in there. I’ll stick the address in the boxes above, but if it doesn’t show up, and you’d like to know more about The Bold Joff, it’s at WordPress and it’s called “May contain 2% Owl”.

      I should visit here more often, you’re a bonny bunch.

    288. Ray says:

      Sorry but I need to point out a glaring inaccuracy in your ‘arithmetic’ which I hope you have the courage to correct since you are basing your argument on it. You say that the country is £1024 worse off – you can’t just add all those numbers up. For starters, there is overlap between each of the categories i.e. some people fall in to more than one camp and secondly, each category does not contain the same amount of people therefore you can’t assume that each is equally weighted. As an extreme example, if there was only one low income family in the UK yet there was 1000 people in each of the other categories then clearly the public as a whole would be massively better off. I’m not saying that this is the case but please remove the figure you have stated as it is laughably stupid.

    289. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think you need to cool your jets over indyref 2. It’s not happening – at least not for a very long time. Sovereignty and the constitution are reserved matters. We had our vote – it was a no. There is absolutely no reason why the British government would grant a second one. There is simply no pressure on them to do so legally, morally, economically or politically. They will simply refuse it. I seriously doubt the SNP want to hold one anyway as they would almost certainly lose it.

      You MIGHT get another one in about 15 or 20 years but if you’re going to win it you’ll need a long term strategy – sour grapes and continually challenging for a rematch wont cut it.”

      There’s an awful lot of nonsense packed in there.

      1. Nobody’s anticipating another one imminently, unless something dramatic happens.

      2. It would be politically incendiary, and possibly illegal under international law, to refuse a second one if there was a clear electoral mandate for it.

      3. It’ll happen if and when it happens. It’s not about “strategy” or time half as much as it is about events and polls. If, for whatever reason, Yes starts regularly polling in the high 50s, the SNP will put it in a manifesto, more than likely win an election on it (given the abominable state of Labour and the Lib Dems for the forseeable future), and it’ll happen. Putting a timescale on it is idiotic, which is why I don’t.

    290. The Moidart says:

      Macart… Thank you for your acknowledgement and appreciation. I spoke to many people about this subject at the anti austerity march last month. Time to reunite my friend.

    291. The Moidart says:

      Effie.. You’re determined to make me blush aren’t you?? Lol ???? You’re truly a wonderful person. You honour me. Thank you ???? i meant to say earlier if I can ever help at all?? Please don’t hesitate to ask? But I’m sure you could teach me more than I could you. Lol. And thank you for your kind words. And after looking at your page online I agree. You should post more often. Scott

    292. Petra says:

      @ GallusEffie says at 9:38 am

      Thanks for posting GallusEffie and sharing your story. I can totally relate to you as one of my young relatives suffers from spastic cerebral palsy and epilepsy, can’t sit up without support, is doubly incontinent and functions cognitively at a pre-birth level. His parents love him dearly, we all do, and are very protective of him. Like you they have to attend to his every need as he’s totally reliant on others to carry out the most basic of tasks such as giving him a drink, feeding and changing him.

      They’ve spoken to us about his future in relation to them passing away before he does, say in an accident or whatever, and this has been dealt with to their satisfaction (satisfied not really being the proper term in this case). They are in the fortunate position of being part of an extended family however we know of others who are not and their greatest fear is that when they pass away their son or daughter will be put into care and additionally worry now that the level of care will change (diminish) over time.

      This Government, driven by sheer greed, has exacerbated their fears due to the constant talk of financial cuts in conjunction with the callous attitude shown towards the most vulnerable in our society. The SNP and the Scots in general have shown that they belong to a caring society one that values all human beings regardless of what they can contribute to the coffers or not.

      Hubert Humphrey said in his last speech that ‘’the moral test of Government is how that Government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly and those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. ” It’s just too bad that this current immoral Government doesn’t seem to see things that way at all and never will. Their continued rule leaves the poor and vulnerable (and their relatives) anxious and unsettled through never quite knowing what they are going to do next. The only way out of it of course is for Scotland to get its Independence. Thinking of those who need us most like my nephew and your Joff gives us the added impetus to achieve that end. All my best wishes to you and your family GallusEffie especially that amazing son of yours.

    293. Macart says:


      Any blog should simply be honest and from the heart.

      I don’t think you’ll have any problems on that score. 🙂

    294. The Moidart says:

      Petra.. Amazing post.Just like Effies earlier. Pity help the poor and the vulnerable within our communities for the foreseeable future. I can only imagine how difficult it will be for anyone who has or has a relative with any kind of disability from now on. God help us. Best of luck to both of you and your families. Sincerely.. Scott

    295. The Moidart says:

      Macart @ 3.12…. Well said sir. A lot of honesty on here today. Takes a lot of honesty to speak publicly to people about these subjects. More power to both Effie and Petra.

    296. Isobel harris says:

      I beg to differ about pensioners being winners. I love in Scotland and left school when I was 15 and am now 60, having worked for 45 years I am now told I cannot get my pension until I am 66. This is despicable after me paying NI for these 45 years and expecting to retire at 60. So now myself an my husband cannot retire of another 6 years as we cannot afford to live on one wage , although my husband is a tradesman, he is poorly paid , as am I. It’s absolutely disgusting, I am worst off I have ever been in my life !

    297. GallusEffie says:

      Moidart –

      I don’t mean to make you uncomfortable, by any means, however I suspect careworkers like yourself don’t get told ( often enough ) about the worth of your work and thank you for it.
      Just, mind, in cyberspace no-one can see you blush! Heh heh.

      Petra @2.52

      Thanks for speaking about your young relative and your good wishes…I bet he’s the sun, stars and moon to you all. Although Mr Effie and I went to court when Joff was 16 to get lifelong Legal Guardianship for him, we’ve not been so good at looking at the scenario of if we’re not around and he’s still here.

      I think the only conscious decision we ever made was that we never wanted Joff’s sisters to feel like his young carers. They care about him, of course, even though it’s a vastly different sibling relationship from usual, but we never wanted them to be planning aspects of their life/careers/friendships around potentially caring for their brother. That’s our job.

      I completely agree with you that the brutal cutbacks in budgets for social care, respite, school transport, after school care alongside dwindling social security is completely frightening. For all that Lowe is a life limiting disorder, Joff’s health is good, and he may well survive into middle age. We had him in our late 20s so if we’re still around and able to care, scrabbling for scraps under a WM government, it makes for the prospect of a hard and uncomfortable old age.

      I personally can’t see why any family carer would chose to vote No. And there are at least 870,000 of us in Scotland.


    298. The Moidart says:

      Galluseffie.. Don’t worry. I couldn’t take a red face at a bonfire. Lol. Unfortunately it’s not all people who work in my sector who are there for reasons similar to my own. I’ve worked with some stoaters over the years tbh. But yes. It’s always nice to be appreciated. Thank you. I think both you and Petra are very brave. I think you both have a lot to contribute to sites like this. I think we all have to become more aware on many levels. I’ve learned so much from just reading posts on here. Here’s to the little gentleman in the black velvet waistcoat. Lol Some amazing writers on here. It’s a real education.

    299. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sorry but I need to point out a glaring inaccuracy in your ‘arithmetic’ “

      Sigh. It’s not my arithmetic, it’s the Mail’s. Of course it’s not rigorous scientific proof of anything, but it’s what the Mail has chosen as a representative picture, so it’s what we’ve critiqued. The article says right at the start that it’s looking at the budget through the Mail’s eyes.

      Subsequently, the IFS report has backed the analysis up comprehensively – everyone except one small group of the wealthy loses out, and the net effect is a massive loss for the population as a whole. We were absolutely right that the Mail was putting an excessively positive gloss on everyone else’s position.

    300. Rock says:


      “In reality, I would probably have more success with the Yeti but such is life.”

      That was exactly my point when you started arguing with me and calling me a troll.

      Resources are limited. We cannot afford to waste them on a lost cause.

    301. Ray says:

      Sigh. Sorry Rev but it’s not the Mail’s figure I am questioning, it’s the £1204 figure that you have equated. The sum that you did to get that figure is nonsense, you can’t just add those numbers together for the reasons I pointed out. I hear your arguments on why you think the Mail’s figures are wrong in the first place, but that doesn’t excuse the maths that you’ve then performed to make a completely false point. I’m sorry but what I am pointing out to you is a fact, please correct.

    302. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Have you always had a closed mind?”

      No, but it seems you have.

      I am interested in reality not pedantry.

      “UDI” can be spoken of in other words.

      Because you are stuck with pedantry you can’t see that.

      In reality, any method other than a Yes vote in a referendum is “UDI”, whether you use the word or not.

      It seems you have now shut up about your “sovereign” pedantry because in reality we have no sovereignty whatsoever.

      That is why 71% of the people wanting Carmichael to resign can’t do anything about it.

    303. MJC says:

      The only viable way to change this fucked up country is total non compliance. All workers of all backgrounds down tools until a proper system is in place. One that cares and shares equaly no matter the situation. Exceptions of downing tools would be those who care for the ill and vulnerable. Everyone else just dont go to work for a month, see the shit hitting the fan then.

    304. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi MJC.

      I’ve held the belief, for many decades, the Scots and ‘the British’ tend to be conservative with a small c. As a nation, Scots tend not to like the idea of change, with a small c.

      However, the referendum campaign awakened the ‘anti-conservative’ gene in many Scots and that gene is now active – it will be a hard job to make it dormant again. You just have to look at the many successful rallies held in George Square, from October’s ‘Hope Over Fear’ onwards, and other rallies in Dundee and Edinburgh.

      The next chance for a wee get-together of Wingers is on 25th July, in the Clyde Bar, Helensburgh. Since the referendum, there have already been get-togethers in Glasgow (2) and Dundee (Invergowrie).

      We’re not going away…

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