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The Great Separatist

Posted on March 04, 2016 by

An alert reader just found this. It’s quite something.

We especially liked this bit:

“The growing practice of the socialist government is to take decisions vitally affecting Scotland in Whitehall… this is a process which we have every intention of setting in direct reverse.”

(1m 46s)

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    1. 04 03 16 13:43

      The Great Separatist | Speymouth

    164 to “The Great Separatist”

    1. Colin Church says:

      “mass meeting of the Scottish unionists conference”

      At Ibrox? Who’d have thought.

      The Yoon is still strong in their sons and daughters.

    2. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      At Ibrox Park.

      Oh, the irony.

    3. bobajock says:

      Ahh yes – local rail – so many lines to choose from.

      So many electricity suppliers – all the same price … So many … competing … or is it just furnishing the 1% with all they want.

      Competition – the stupid gene in the Tory DNA.

    4. It actually reinforces many things described well by Gordon Brown in his recent book (“My Scotland, Our Britain”). Scotland had much more autonomy before the invention of the welfare state. (Gordon Brown of course thinks the development was a good thing, but he describes well how it undermined Scottish separateness.)

    5. mealer says:

      Ah,the olden days! Actually,most of the Tories current conference attendees were probably in that Ibrox crowd.

    6. Auld Rock says:

      Note well location. Nothing changed then except the Tory/Unionist politicians have all but been declared an extinct species. Now to deal with the ‘Red’ Tories and those FIB/Dems who are left.

      Auld Rock

    7. mike cassidy says:

      How ironic, then, that the Tory’s ideological detestation and ongoing systematic dismantling of the welfare state has contributed so much to reintroducing that separateness between England and Scotland.

    8. Doug Daniel says:

      “The quickest way for the people of Scotland to regain proper control over their own affairs is to dismiss the socialists from public office.”

      As “the socialists” refers to the Labour party there, you’ve got to hand it to him, he was completely correct. He just didn’t mean for us to do it by voting SNP instead.

    9. bugsbunny says:

      Shouldn’t he have finished that speech by singing the sash or playing the flute? A missed opportunity perhaps?


    10. Jimbo says:

      All those, indoctrinated since childhood, British Unionists hanging on to, and applauding, his every word. Sad, sad, sad.

      One of the biggest brainwashing accomplishments of the British state was to get Scots to stand for, and sing, en masse the anti Scottish song, God Save the King/Queen.

    11. galamcennalath says:

      So … are we to deduce that Thatcher’s aim in selling off all those UK wide nationalised institutions was to return the independence Scotland used to exercise? No!

      However … that is exactly what is happening. Unforeseen consequences? Well, Churchill certainly recognised it, although his motivation was of course the same right wing ideology of Thatcher.

      All that is left of ‘Britishness’ is WM, monarchy, military and the BBC. All on shuggly pegs.

      Gone are British Rail, British Steel, National Coal Board, etc etc..

      WW2 followed by Labour’s nationalising government created a ‘British’ brand now only remembered by older people.

    12. mike cassidy says:

      Those who have no objection to a little homework might like this.

    13. Eckle Fechan says:


    14. bugsbunny says:

      Anyone read about the Declaration of Perth in 1968? The then Conservative Opposition headed by Edward Heath committed itself to a mild form of Devolution. But this was in the aftermath of Winnie Ewing’s Hamilton By Election Victory of 1967 and before the setting up of the Kilbrandon Commission by Harold Wilson’s Labour Party. by 1970, with an SNP with only 2 MP’s, this was chucked on the backburner. Only with a strong SNP and the fear of separatism, will the Unionists promise much. Without the SNP there would be no Scottish Parliament. The SNP, not Donald Dewar, was the “Father of the Nation”.


    15. Macart says:

      You can’t see it, but my ghast is flabbered. 😮

    16. By ditching the Scottish Conservative name in favour of rolling out the Conservative and Unionist Party brand across Scotland, is Cameron hoping to roll back the years so that the next Party conference can again fill Ibrox stadium? Beggars belief that the Tories were at one time so strong here, but let’s never forget that they were, and their aim is to claw their way back to those days.

    17. galamcennalath says:

      The speech, as far as I can work out, was 20th May 1949.

      At the general election on 23rd Feb 1950. Churchill’s Tories were narrowly defeated.

      Next year on 25th Oct 1951 Churchill won with more seats, however with fewer votes than Labour across the UK

      However, here’s the twist. The combined Unionists plus National Liberal & Conservative Parties (allies who didn’t stand against each other) actually polled slightly MORE than Labour.

      In 1955 and 1959 the combined Tories again got more votes than Labour. (1959 fewer seats, though)

      Changed days indeed, when the Tories spoke for Scotland. Unimaginable!

    18. Andrew Mclean says:

      Dorthy Bruce,

      the fan base lives no longer, to be blunt it wast politics but religion, the remnants of this older order are to be found every 12 of July, the OO march in Edinburgh was an attempt to raise an old ghost, fortunately Scotland has moved on.

      My family tradition was OO and Unionist, me ex military sort of, don’t ask, now feel at home here.

      The myth of Union is over, for better or worse, we now have to “Work as if you live in the early days of a better nation”

      We have a new nation to build, look what the tory conference actually offered, nothing absolutely nothing!

    19. The Rough Bounds. says:

      ”Socialism is a philosphy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. It’s inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”
      W. Churchill.

      As one who was brought up in the corrupt Soviet Socialist Republic of Glasgow and suffered much under a Scottish Labour ‘hegemony’ for all of my youth, I can only say that I agree with many of the sentiments expressed in that clip except the last bit where he goes on about ‘the Empire’ etc.

      Scotland has had her fill of blue Tories. She has also had her fill of hypocritical Reds.

    20. The more I have read about the imperialist racist Churchill the more I absolutely detest him.

      As for him telling a Loyal Orange Order crowd at Ibrox that he was set in reversing the process of decisions vitally affecting Scotland being taken in Whitehall.

      I wonder how many of the mugs in the crowd believed him?
      Damn few I suspect and they are all deid!

    21. Bob Mack says:

      It was Party Political then ,it is Party political now. It is all about establishing footholds and power bases in parts of the country. They will say anything and everything to instill hope and belief. Remember Cameron at the referendum?

      An old ,but very effective trick which is beginning at last to show it’s age.

    22. Sandy says:

      “The Secretary of State for Scotland shall ensure that Scottish interests are specially served, and regarded.”

      If only he could meet Fluffy and explain a thing or two to him.

    23. heedtracker says:

      Churchill for devo. Fast forward through the red and blue toryboy years to the next UKOK millennium, they’ve sold off everything they nationalised, back in the ownership of super rich tax evaders, City spivs, hedge funds, Royal Mail, what a toryboy bargain and they still have complete control of their Scotland region too.

    24. Proud Cybernat says:

      A stadium full of Prod Scot Buts…

    25. Chic McGregor says:

      It should be pointed out that the Scottish Unionist Party was a separate party from the Conservatives in 1949. They raised their own funds and wrote their own manifesto.

      The much vaunted ‘Conservative’ success in Scotland in the early 1950’s actually consisted of an electoral pact alliance between the Scottish Unionist Party and the National Liberal and Conservative Party.

      In 1950 the alliance got just a little less than Labour, in 1951 the alliance had the biggest share of the vote but just short of a seat majority and in 1955 they got a seat majority and just over 50% of the vote.

      As a result of their independence the Scottish Unionist Party was able to play a small ‘n’ nationalist card and that is what Churchill was pandering to.

      And when they eventually merged with the Conservatives in the 60s it would seem that subsequent vote shift to the SNP was perhaps more than coincidental.

      see previous post:

    26. Andrew Mclean says:

      Kezia Dugdale, you can rig polls with code, “I have seen it done?” Really where Kezia?, something to confess have we?, and “Eggs Of Venom” ffs is that the next Harry Potter book? or have you been watching to much Flash Gordon?

    27. Cherry says:

      Ok …now don’t all jump on me…but at the end of the clip you’ll see a wee man,then another man with cloth cap and right behind is a wee wummin what looks like the queen mother….THAT’S MY GRANNIE !!!

      Lived in Drumoyne/Ibrox. My mother was such a snob she never said Govan. My wee grannie spoke in Scots and would tell me to go ben the loaby,my mother would streak…speak properly mother! lol. My grannies was into all things political and she would have been there to see what was going on. An excuse to take her curlers out and put on her best hat.

    28. Robert Kerr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      That was not a typo. The omission of the letter “u”

      SNP SNP EU

    29. galamcennalath says:

      Worth remembering that period also spawned the Scottish Covenant. Although written after Churchill’s speech, it had been talked about. He was no doubt fully aware. …

      “… a petition to the United Kingdom government to create a home rule Scottish parliament. …. written in October 1949 …. The petition was eventually signed by two million people. ”

      Truth is, the natives have always been restless. It’s just the State has managed so far to keep us in our place.

    30. One_Scot says:

      I’m beginning to think that the person who wires up brains forgot to do Dugdales.

    31. G H Graham says:

      An exit poll as attendees left the station would have been interesting.

      Q1. Are you a communist?
      Q2. Are you Protestant or Catholic?

      Thanks for completing our questionnaire. The Orange Order’s Empire Banquet & Dance event at the Dennistoun Palais starts at 7:00pm. Please dress accordingly.
      God save The Queen.

    32. Robert Kerr says:

      @G H Graham

      On the other hand that was a typo. “station” to “Stadium”

      I am enjoying this,

      SNP SNP EU

    33. Arbroath1320 says:

      I hope no one has shown this wee video to Ruthie. 😉

      I’d hate to think that we VILE Cybernats were the cause of wee Ruthie locking hersel in the doon stairs cubby hole an no coming oot for three days cause here greatest of great Tories was speaking to an audience in Ibrox and she’d struggle to fill a wee tea room! 😀

      I’d also definitively suggest NOT showing wee Kez what a conference should look like … i.e. bums on seats … not seats, loads of them, sitting empty! 😀

      Unless you want to be charged wi attempted murder do not under ANY circumstances show this to wee Willie. He wid hae a heart attack! 😀

    34. The Man in the Jar says:

      I`m sure that I spotted Foulks in the crowd.

    35. Andrew Mclean says:

      GH Graham,

      “Please dress accordingly.
      God save The Queen.”

      Now that reminds me of something a pig abuser would say!

    36. cearc says:

      Well Churchill at Ibrox certainly pulled a bigger crowd than Cameron at Murrayfield!

      Maybe he’ll try Ibrox next time!

    37. ScottishPsyche says:

      The working class Tory was and is now increasingly an actual thing. Bursting with unfulfilled aspiration to be like their ‘betters’.

      They are people full of resentment at anyone who dared to say sometimes those at the bottom just cannot do any more for themselves because of the hand that life dealt them. Very much the type who says ‘I started off with nothing but look at how rich/clever/ powerful/successful I am now’ – the Mones and K. Hagues.

      Bereft of any insight and utterly without empathy.

      To our mortification as a family, my sister, as a small child, named her teddy bear ‘Teddy Taylor’. Those of a certain age will know that this was the name of a Tory MP returned to Westminster time and again from Glasgow Cathcart, a constituency which took in Castlemilk. The idea that they could vote Tory now seems ridiculous, yet what we are seeing now is the emergence of that type of Tory again. For a while they may have voted Labour or even UKIP but their natural home was always Tory.

      Ruth Davidson is without a doubt targeting this unionist working class vote. The Labour Party have only themselves to blame but I would urge caution about their demise as I believe a reinvigorated working class Tory vote is much more dangerous.

    38. Bill McDermott says:

      That brings back memories. The protestant ascendancy and anti-nationalization going together. It just goes to show how arrogant Thatcher was in replacing all the ‘British’ institutions with the City of London making way for globalization.

      Despite the pain, it will be worth it when we are free of the whole establishment.

    39. Cherry says:

      Typo sorry should be shrieked not streaked oops!

    40. Andrew Mclean says:

      Oh My God, Kezia actually did faked a poll, her confession is on the revs twitter,
      then we look at this

      What else should we know about Kezia!

    41. galamcennalath says:

      OT I see on Twitter The Rev seems to be enjoying himself reading the journals of a youthful Kezia Dugdale. Some cracking revelations. Hope he puts an article on WoS.

      Looks like she had no plans for high office a few years back. 🙂

    42. The Man in the Jar says:

      My next door neighbour is a 92 year old former (steam) train driver. He remembers his parents telling him to vote tory as”they were the ones with the money and they knew what they were doing”

      A glimpse into the strange world of the working class tory.

    43. Awizgonny says:

      And the total failure of the Unionist Party to bring those powers back to Scotland is shown in its extinction just one decade after getting over 50% of the popular vote in 1955.

    44. Brian McHugh says:

      The Tory (Churchill) argument of Nineteen Foirthftmmmph, didn’t quite forsee that most of the public services would be devolved to Scotland (ie. Localisation in public services). He also failed miserably to forsee a Scottish Parliament and Government… bless his wee cigar.

    45. Provost Sludden says:

      As others have pointed out, what would have been termed ‘Tory’ in Scotland at the time of this speech was split into different groups. The main group was the Unionist Party, then the National Liberals and at council level the Progressives. However to most people, certainly my staunchly Labour grandparents they were all simply ‘Tories’.

      These groups followed the Conservative whip at Westminster and while there may have been small differences, on major issues there was agreement.

      This situation continues today, “Scottish” Labour and Lib Dems agree with the Tories on virtually everything and vote with them on most major issues. So we are perfectly correct to refer to all the Unionist parties as ‘Tories’ .

    46. Sunniva says:

      Churchill was correct. Nationalisation took autonomy away from Scotland. Decisions which had been under local control (albeit this was largely when industry and transport were privately owned, but nonetheless privately owned by Scottish investors) were henceforth made in London, with only a token nod to Scotland. When it came to ‘national’ resources being ‘pooled and shared’ in the 60s and 70s the south had the whip hand and always lucked out. The NHS was a welcome form of nationalisation but nationalisation of coal, steel, transport, saw Scotland lose out. In 1968, barely a decade after trains were nationalised the Beeching cuts saw many local branch lines, essential to remoter communities (and Scotland had more remote communities) have their lifelines cut with consequences for their rural economies.

      It has taken devolution to get the Borders rail link from Melrose to Edinburgh restored, after decades of stifling the Borders economy.

      There was huge opposition to nationalisation in Scotland. This was not precisely Tory, though the Tories were the strongest voices against it. More precisely it was nationalist.

      And was why in the 1955 general election the Tories received the highest vote share ever in any Scottish election.

      Of course the Tories like to brag about this. But it wasn’t a triumph for unionism but in fact it was a form of Scottish nationalism.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      From the Herald, more bad news for Scotland:

      “Inverness Airport to undergo £900,000 expansion”


    48. TJenny says:

      Andrew McLean – I’m really hoping that oor Stuey will add (chocolate) Eggs of Venom into the crowdfunder perks, in time for Easter. 🙂

    49. galamcennalath says:

      The Man in the Jar says:

      “they were the ones with the money and they knew what they were doing”

      That was my father’s family’s attitude in the hey day of Scottish Unionism. Country folk, worked on estates basically. Knew their place, knew who their betters were. Vote for the people with money because they give you a job. Aye, right.

      My mother’s mother was different. She, as a young woman in Govan, went to listen to John MacLean. My granny oan ma mither’s side wouldn’t have had much time for Churchill.

    50. Ken500 says:

      @ Blogs

      Just go back to the first comment of the Scotsman website pre being elected to the exalted position.

      A racist, bigoted ‘little old lady’. Had every first bigoted comment. Appallng outlook – never deleted. Pride of place. ‘land of hope and glory’ ‘ up the Union’ masonic comments. 24/7. A right piece of bad work. Now the groomed, scripted SNPbsd piece. Hasn’t changed a lot.

      The only time the comments disappeared was after 24/7 support for Gordon Brown denial position. He admitted he had supported the policy. A right piece. The Unionists and the Press.

    51. Brian McHugh says:

      Sunniva at 2:28, I had a post drafted on those exact lines… but yours is better. 🙂

      Tory’s and Labour are just Londoncentric unionists now… Have been since 1997.

    52. Bob Mack says:

      My grandfather a fireman during the blitz in Clydebank ,and later a gardener with the Council, always voted Tory.

      His rationale was that Tories had experience in running large estates and businesses,and we’re therefore more able than a man who had no such experience.

      Funny thing was my grandparents lived in a prefab and apart from pensions they refused point blank to apply for any type of assistance,entitled or not.

      How times change

    53. heraldnomore says:

      Was it an Egg of Venom that hit that former Slab leader, what was his name again, back in 2014? Is that what all the stooshie was about?

      Having just cleaned out the chicken hut I can confirm that our eggs have no venom at all, pure organic goodness.

      Where do we get these Slab eggs, Kez, never heard of them before?

    54. Fred says:

      @ Man in the Jar, a steam-engine driver was really a jumped-up labourer who progressed from engine cleaner, to fireman to driver & earned a fiver when a railway tradesman had three quid. Some treated the firemen like skivvies.

      I remember seeing Churchill at the pictures in Springburn’s Astor cinema at a Saturday matinee when aged about six. His appearance nearly caused a riot by the weans there assembled, you learned early who your enemies were.

    55. Marcia says:

      I am sure that speech helped to fuel the Scottish National Covenant in the early 1950’s. His words were the usual political rhetoric that the Unionist used to get votes in days gone by.

    56. Bob Mack says:

      Cameron speaking at the Scottish Tory conference can hardly hear himself for the whistling hearing aids.

      ( Mine are safely boxed in a drawer)

    57. Arbroath1320 says:

      O/T here. 🙁

      Just read confirmation from my M.S.P. that our village Post Office is to be closed and moved to … drum roll please … the SPAR! 🙁

      First it was Gretna.

      Now it is us.

      We now hear that Annan may well be next!

      As things stand at the moment businesses in Gretna REFUSE to use the SPAR post office facilities and travel to Eastriggs. When our post office is shut they will ultimately travel to Annan until that one shuts. When Annan is *ahem* moved businesses will travel to DUMFRIES, a 30 minute drive away!

      This is from the local paper:

      Disapointed Dumfriesshire M.P. David Mundell said “The Post Office are going against the wishes of the community who overwhelmingly voiced their opposition to the plans during the consultation and at public meetings.
      I will be watching with interest to see how villagers react to using a Post Office inside a Spar as other similar relocations in my constituency haven’t been popular.with users. Local residents fought tooth and nail to try and save a service which is at the heart of their community and I share their anger at this final decision.”

      What a two faced, hypocritical,cowardly, money grabbing grredy wee s****faced b*****d this MORON is.

      This gutless, spineless Amoeba of a politician didn’t even have the guts to attend any of the public meetings, he sent a useless lacky instead.

      I’ll bet he is watching with interest … Baby Fluff is standing for election in May. Hope we can get this news through to folks that you vote Tory you LOSE!

      This b*****d says he feels OUR anger???

      He hasnae got the slightest idea about the level of anger here . HE is, allegedly, our MP in Westminster. HE, allegedly, is supposed to represent US! HE is nothing more than a COWARD and bag carrier for Porky!

      Right that’s it … I’m exhausted … going fur a wee lie doon in the darkened room.

      Rant over … for noo!

    58. Greannach says:

      Scottish Tory conference? That means several things:
      1. Largely empty hall;
      2. Heavily medicated delegates and there carers;
      3. Three or four teenage boys in tweeds pretending not to be gay;
      4. La Tankista getting a buzz from her familiars.

      And that’s about it.

    59. Dr Jim says:

      I’m convinced

      I’ve just heard Camerons bold and impassioned speech to the boisterous and enthusiastic Conservative and Unionist Party
      and my bowled has never been so overed

      Snot was bursting forth from my nostrils at both him and the obviously enthralled acolytes, I’m just shocked at exactly how much it sounded like Tony Blair when he was trying not to look like a Tory

      The Tories should be beating Labour coz they’re so pathetic but on this showing it looks like they’re trying to help Labour out by being even worse than them


    60. Greannach says:

      PS. Forgot to ask if Ian Murray MP will be addressing ScotConConf this year since there are no other Labour MPs in Scotland.

    61. Nana says:


      Our PO has been in the spar shop for about 2 years now. It’s dire, folk wanting to post something while shoppers barging at you to get to the shelves and on top of that there is now a.. wait for it….a subway franchise.

    62. Macart says:

      @Arbroath 1320

      I’ve been in there all day.

      Kettle’s on.

    63. Fred says:

      Nana, the Subway franchise is good it might encourage the likes of Ian Gray & Mags Curran to holiday in your area.

    64. Connor McEwen says:

      To Bob Mack 3.01

      No more doffin yir cap, MLud
      Upstairs, Downstairs. butler would be proud.

      By the way Winston Churchill wanted Ghandi killed for wanting Indian indy.

    65. Nana says:


      Curran & Ian Gray, blimey enough to put you off your dinner!

    66. heedtracker says:

      Contemporary Scots Cons yoons are the real holders of power in Scotland. BBC Scotland treats them like gods, as do the rest of the UKOK hackdom. This isnt news but they tend to keep a low profile up here, electing sock puppets like Ruth or carpet baggers like my Slovene girlfriend and future Lord Tomkinski.

      They started making serious appearance impact/appearance during their NO Thanks campaign but before that, here in Aberdeen, rich ones made a huge effort to block the new by-pass, simply because it’s spoiling their rural Scotland region idle. Anyway, they spent about a million quid blocking the AWPR, adding half a billion quid to the costs, held it up for a decade at least. But all they actually succeeded in doing really, is forcing a change of route further west from Aberdeen and directly into their rural Scotland region idles. Yes most are retired English people too. They are rather cheesed orf, with Mr Salmond in particular.

      Contemporary toryboy is a lot more realistic than modern tory.

    67. Flying Scotsman says:

      I don’t see the problem with moving the post office into a shop,they did it in my area over a decade ago.
      To my mind it kills 2 birds wi 1 stone.

    68. mike cassidy says:

      If you are not of a nervous disposition, you may wish to gird your political loins and read this

      written on the death of Warren Mitchell, portrayer of the most famous of working-class tories, Alf Garnett.

      And don’t forget the comments! It seems no one likes the bbc!

    69. heedtracker says:

      Alf Garnett v Rab C Nesbit. How come BBC creeps never produce an upper class English tory monster, private school, Oxbridge, UKOK City spivery, civil service fast track, Fleet Street Sun, Times, Telegraph nutcase, Army, BBC…?

    70. Dr Jim says:

      Kim Jong Davidson says SNP are a clear and present danger to the Yoonion

      I feel so proud

    71. ScottishPsyche says:

      A small window into Kezia Dugdale’s thought processes?

      Given her relatively tender years, you could say immaturity can be blamed for some of that stuff, but that in itself cannot account for how batshit it all is.

      I always thought Kez was just not very bright but I am surprised at the sheer relentless nastiness of her output. It makes you wonder how much she keeps to herself.

      The funniest though thing is how wrong she is about nearly everything. As a political analyst she really is crap.

      Has she ever categorically denied that she Fifi le Bonbon? I saw that Ian Macwhirter said he had been assured she wasn’t, but by whom?

    72. Arbroath1320 says:

      I know we are far from being alone in this Nana but I just had to get it off my chest … so to speak. 😉

      The Tories are doing EVERYTHING they can to destroy civilisation in this country as we know it. I wonder how many Tory millionaire MP’s are directors of SPAR! 😉

      I just hope that when it comes to May folks remember WHO it was that has destroyed our village live. The post office may be getting moved to the SPAR in the village but like you say Nana you are fighting, in some cases quite literally, to get served.

      As I said above, there businesses in Gretna who used to use the post office in Gretna but when the SPARIFIED it quite a few stopped using it and transferred all their business to Eastriggs. Now our P.O. is closing and being moved to SPAR they will no doubt NOT use that and travel to Annan until that P.O. closes. ARGHHH!

      Thanks Macart … think I need quite a few wee cuppas after this! 😀

      I just hope I do not bump into my MP any time soon. Oh wait a minute he is a gutless, spineless, cowradly Amoeba so there is absolutely NO chance of that happening is there. 😀

    73. Papadox says:

      My goodness, big Ruthie the tank commander was getting pretty worked up trying to rouse her troops. One scan round that bunch and I would have sent for the meat wagon to clear the place.

      Turned the sound off and it was actually very entertaining watching her exaggerated facial expressions and mechanical hand gestures, reminded me a lot of the wooden tops, what some people will do for money!

      Very very sad, pathetic really. What a bunch of chancers and wasters.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      “Davidson says SNP are a clear and present danger to the Yoonion”

      Jeez, points for Ruthie for perceptive analysis, eh?

      Perhaps more importantly, we are moving Into territory where the majority of voters are a threat to the Union. The Yoons should think long and hard about that.

    75. Arbroath1320 says:

      Flying Scotsman says:
      4 March, 2016 at 3:59 pm

      I don’t see the problem with moving the post office into a shop,they did it in my area over a decade ago.
      To my mind it kills 2 birds wi 1 stone.

      The trouble is FS that they are not just moving the PO but cutting some of the services. Services that the local businesses are most likely to use. Parcel security is another HUGE issue. Currently parcels can be dropped off at our PO and the parcels are secure. In the SPAR they will NOT be secure. Remember as well the staff who work the SPAR tills,stock the shelves etc will also be working the PO section. There is no security on the PO section.

      Specifically for our village I know our Post office owners will, if someone does not pick up their pension, ask questions and if need be physically take the pension round to the individual concerned. Staff in the SPAR will not/can not do that.

      It is not just about the relocation that we are up in arms about it is the wee “extras.” Westminster are too gutless spineless and cowardly to speak to us and understand that these wee “extras” mean so much to people in our village where a lot of residents are retired!

    76. heedtracker says:

      Arbroath1320 says:
      4 March, 2016 at 4:32 pm
      Flying Scotsman says:
      4 March, 2016 at 3:59 pm

      This is great in the Gorbals, the New Gorbals.

      Although its probably beyond Royal Mail, who like to deliver their “sorry you were out” tickets, when you sitting on your own door step with a fag.

    77. Fireproofjim says:

      Heedtracker@ 4.11
      Actually there was a Tory, upper class, public school, crooked, sex-obsessed MP on TV.
      Perhaps you remember Alan B’stard, played by Rick Mayall.
      Among the bills he wanted to introduce was one called “The case for slavery”.

    78. heedtracker says:

      Fireproofjim says:
      4 March, 2016 at 4:40 pm
      Heedtracker@ 4.11

      That was ITV my friend. BBC did Bottom, working class monster clowns, ofcourse.

      BBC’s upper class English twit heaven, with Scotch cringers and henchman to keep us in line.

    79. Arbroath1320 says:

      That looks like a cracking idea Heedtracker. I can’t see SPAR doing it unfortunately and on a second level they do not have the space.

      Unfortunately the Amazon secure box thingy appears to be all about picking up parcels. We have a few businesses in the village that use the local post office to send out parcels sometimes as many as 20 or so at a time.

    80. Andrew Morton says:

      I recall a passage from the memoirs of Nikita Kruschev which was quite revealing of Establishment views of Scotland in the 1950s. He was leading a delegation to the UK in April 1956 and during the visit Anthony Eden proposed a visit to Scotland:


      There was one more English city we were supposed to visit, and then we were to
      head off for Scotland.
      The next time we met with Eden I said: Mr Eden, my legs wont hold me
      up any longer. I cant continue at this pace. You are exploiting us. I’m tired
      out and I wont go any further. As of tomorrow I’m declaring a strike and
      will remain at the hotel in London.
      He laughed: Mr. Khrushchev, I beg you, I simply plead with you, lets
      agree that you wont have to go anywhere else except to Scotland. I beg of
      you ever so much, you really have to go there. Do you know what Scotland
      is like? If you don’t go there, Scotland will revolt and withdraw from the
      Commonwealth. Thats what the Scots are like! You don’t know what
      nationalists they are. They’ll give me no rest!

      Bulganin and I exchanged glances (he was of the same opinion that
      there was no point in making any more trips), then we said: All right, we’ll
      go to Scotland.
      We went there. It was interesting for us to look at this country, but it
      turned out to be like a flying cavalry raid. As a result very few impressions
      remained with us, especially since the English had made all the arrangements:
      no contact with the people, meetings with only those who were necessary, that
      is, those who were officially chosen to meet us and accompany us. No one
      else. We didn’t walk on the streets, and no visits to factories were arranged.
      Thus, we were in Scotland, but we only saw the people from our car windows.
      And only those who were walking on the streets. We had no meetings that
      were not part of the official itinerary. We flew to Edinburgh. We were warned
      that in Scotland it’s always raining, and sure enough, Scotland greeted us
      with a fine drizzle. An honor guard had formed up, and it marched by with
      its special music. Scottish [bagpipe] music and the Scottish military uniform
      are quite unique. I had practically never before seen these Scotsmen in their
      plaid kilts, berets, and bagpipes. I had seen them only once before, and
      heard their music, in 1946, when I went to Berlin and then to Vienna. In
      Vienna I saw a Scottish military unit marching by in their special national
      costumes and with their Scottish musical instruments. But I had observed
      them for literally a few moments only. Now we were seated under a canvas
      awning, and the Scottish troops marched past us so that we could get a
      close look at them.
      A dinner was then given in our honor at the Edinburgh royal palace. We
      were told that the dinner had been provided for us in the name of Queen
      Elizabeth, because she was the queen of Scotland as well as of England.

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @bugsbunny says: 4 March, 2016 at 12:34 pm:

      “Shouldn’t he have finished that speech by singing the sash or playing the flute? A missed opportunity perhaps?”

      If memory serves the old git played the violin. If memory also serves well that Conservative Party, headed by Churchill, was just prior to the landslide victory of the Labour Party in the mid 1940s.

      I think the Scots gave the old bugger his answer and, to be fair, that really was a Socialist Labour Government that was elected to office.

      Talking about silly bugger Conservative & Unionist Party leaders, the present one is every bit of a silly bugger as was Churchill.

      David Cameron has just re-registered the name for the Tories in Scotland as, “The Conservative & Unionist Party”.

      That’ll get the independence voters to turn to the Tories -Aye!

      Not only that but the numptie has made a speech claiming there is a danger of the SNP making the Holyrood Parliament of Scotland into a one party government.

      He claims the Tories are the only party that can stop the SNP becoming a one party government.

      How illogical is that?

      To stop Scotland becoming a one party state – just ignore those other three main parties the vote for the Tories instead.

      That’ll be the other three parties the Tories are opposing in order to only get into second place?

      A one party state with four other parties contesting all Scottish seats. The man’s a bloody idiot if he thinks most Scots will buy into that load of ordure.

    82. Craig P says:

      Interesting that since the advent of the Labour Party, only one party has gained a majority of Scottish votes. And despite Labour’s domination of post-war politics, that was the Scottish Unionist Party (affiliated to the Conservatives in England.)

      The SNP came within a bawhair of that in 2015 but I think they will exceed the 1955 Unionists in the constituency vote in May.

    83. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I bet Jackie The Burd would like a light orchestra right there in the studio with her instead of all the CGI stuff. It’s so much more stirring…

    84. Fireproofjim says:

      Heedtracker @4.48
      You are right it was ITV.
      However a BBC Tory, public school, monster to beat them all was Francis Urquhart in House of Cards.
      Please note,. I am not arguing with you. Just playing a raise the stakes game!
      I agree 100% with your premise that the BBC are a shower of biased UKOK wasters, and the sooner they are replaced in Scotland the better.
      House of Cards was good, though. I knew Ian Richardson, an Edinburgh lad.

    85. Gary45% says:

      I am pretty sure I saw a 1966 England top in the crowd!!
      Fool Britannia, Wuff wuff.

    86. Legerwood says:

      Sunniva @ 2.28 pm

      The railways were actually nationalised by Atlee’s Labour Government in 1948.

      Harold Wilson who became Prime Minister in 1964 had promised to stop the rail cuts proposed by Beeching in 1963 but in fact Wilson continued with the cuts.

      Part of the Tories’ popularity in Scotland in the 1950s and early 1960s may be because it was Tory Governments who gave the go ahead for Ravenscraig in the early 1950s and Linwood in the early 1960s. The latter was set up to help ease unemployment in the area due to the closure of so many of the Clyde shipyards. Linwood stopped producing Hillman imps in 1976 and was eventually closed in 1981 as part of a general re-organisation of its European operations by the Chrysler Company that owned it.

    87. Macart says:

      Heh, Camo playing to the crowd, but who was the crowd? It wasn’t the wider Scottish public that’s for sure. His rhetoric was no olive branch and to be fair neither was Ms Davidson’s. They’re not interested in our votes, nor indeed those of the people they conned or intimidated into voting no in 2014.

      No the unionists are tearing each other apart over their own core vote. All flavours of Tory establishment blue, red and yellow vying to see who can out yoon who. The only folk listening to Camo and Ruthie’s inflammatory bullshit are those already hopelessly wedded to the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, caste patronage and shitting on the helpless from a great height.

      They’re welcome to each other.

      Eighteen months ago they shared stages, were invited to speak at each others conferences and were BFFs for ever. Now? Now they’re tearing each other apart to see who comes in a poor second in a country they relegated to the status of a region.

      Time I’d say to perform a distasteful but absolutely necessary task and do some spring cleaning in may.

    88. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 4 March, 2016 at 2:33 pm:

      “That was my father’s family’s attitude in the hey day of Scottish Unionism. Country folk, worked on estates basically. Knew their place, knew who their betters were. Vote for the people with money because they give you a job. Aye, right.

      The Scots expression was, “Folla the maister”, and on polling day, “The Maister”, be it of an estate or a farm, arranged for a horse an cairt or a tractor an cairt to transport the workers and their families to the poll.

      Anyone even suspected of voting other than with the maister lost their job and, of course, their tied cottage in the Pluckie’s Raw.

    89. Robert Kerr says:

      Yes Robert Peffers.

      And the Maister would be discretely shown the ballots. It was and is a secret ballot only at the point of voting in the screened booth with the supplied pencil.


      SNP SNP EU

    90. Robert Peffers says:

      @Nana says: 4 March, 2016 at 3:33 pm:

      “Our PO has been in the spar shop for about 2 years now.”

      Think yourselves lucky, Nana.
      Our PO counter, n Kelty, is in the …

      Wait for it!
      Wait for it!

      THE Co-op.

    91. Sunniva says:

      Thanks for that. By 1955 it was obvious to most Scots that Labour’s nationalisation programme was a great con, and that though industry had struggled in Scotland between the wars, (the big complaint was, ‘the southward drift of industry’) that Atlee’s nationalisation was no answer to Scotland’s industrial problems. It just continued ‘the southward drift of industry’ in another form, with Scottish money and resources now controlled from London and going south and very little washing north. It was in the 1950s that Labour stopped officially supporting Home Rule. It had dropped lower and lower on their electioneering bumff but finally in the 1950s candidates were told not to put that on their election literature any more. The Tories however saw the point of playing the Scottish card, after nationalisation had not delivered any revival to industry in Scotland. Older people I spoke to said of the 1950s and even the 1960s in Scotland ‘that the war never seemed to end’, there was no bounce back. Edward Heath was much exercised by the need to provide a degree of Scottish devolution. But Labour, under Willie Ross, Scottish Secretary, were by this time wholly opposed to any form of Home Rule.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Flying Scotsman says: 4 March, 2016 at 3:59 pm:

      “I don’t see the problem with moving the post office into a shop,they did it in my area over a decade ago.
      To my mind it kills 2 birds wi 1 stone.”

      You don’t see the problem? Oh! I’ll soon put that right.

      Previously, and particularly in the most remote rural areas, they had the local PO & Village Shop. With the accent being mainly upon the Post Office. It was usually a fact that the PO was keeping the shop as a going concern.

      Often the shop sold everything and what it didn’t sell could get for the customer. Many even had a wee tea room or cafe. Not only that but the PO bus delivered more than mail and was also the only local public transport.

      Then they closed the Post Office and, if they were lucky, they ended up with a Shop/PO and the shop couldn’t be viable and so closed along with the PO, PO bus and cafe.

      Then yet another rural area became a holiday home area and another bit of Scotland died.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      Legerwood says:

      “Tory Governments who gave the go ahead for Ravenscraig in the early 1950s and Linwood in the early 1960s”

      … also Bathgate light truck factory in 1961. And the Corpach Pulp mill was early 60s. I’m sure there are other investments from that era in Scotland.

      Those investments in industry do show a quite different philosophy from Tories. Now all lost in the mists of time.

    94. HeehawBaws says:

      It’s like a scene from The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 4 March, 2016 at 4:11 pm:

      “Alf Garnett v Rab C Nesbit. How come BBC creeps never produce an upper class English tory monster, private school, Oxbridge, UKOK City spivery, civil service fast track, Fleet Street Sun, Times, Telegraph nutcase, Army, BBC…? “

      Well I suppose there is always, “Hyacinth Bucket” :-

    96. Chic McGregor says:

      “Interesting that since the advent of the Labour Party, only one party has gained a majority of Scottish votes. And despite Labour’s domination of post-war politics, that was the Scottish Unionist Party (affiliated to the Conservatives in England.)”

      Sorry to be pedantic but election stats I feel merit such intervention.

      Actually the Scottish Unionist Party got 41.5% of the vote in 1955
      However the National Liberal and Conservative party got 8.6%.

      It was their combined total (all retrospectively dubbed ‘Conservative’) which came to just over 50%.

      Also, whereas you are correct in that the SNP did not get to 50% in 2011, the combined total of pro indy party votes was over 50%.

    97. Brian McHugh says:

      @ sunniva and Legerwood… we have to put this all in context too though. Most folk… correction… everyone of voting age in the 1950’s had just been through the war and were in a re-building mindset. Nobody was even remotely thinking and analysing the detail as we are now. Any direct comparason between the two historical moments is not really realistic.

    98. Ken500 says:

      Podt Ofices get an allowance from the Post Office management. It used to be £30,000 a year ( big or smaller). After the Post Office fice most recent reorganisation/privatisation, it has change. Now they get a payment more relevant to size and business. It can still be in the local shop but the subsidy, payment is reduced. They have to be post office trained. The apostrophe Iffice have a giro? Withdrawal card. People can withdraw their pension money etc. .

      E.g from £30,000 to £10,000 when it changed hands. Sold.

      It is a shame a family who settled in Lagan, Inverness and set up a business, are being removed from the Scotland by the Home Offce after being here 8 years. Bringing enterprise to the community.

    99. Brian McHugh says:

      @ sunniva and Legerwood… We have to put this all in context too though. Most folk, correction; everyone of voting age in the 1950’s had just been through the war and were in a re-building mindset. Nobody was even remotely thinking of and analysing the detail as we are now. Any direct comparason between the two historical moments is not really realistic.

    100. yesindyref2 says:

      Headline in the Herald: “Nick Clegg visited Glasgow dogging site while Deputy Prime Minister”

      But he didn’t visit the site because it weas a dogging site, it just happened to be, he visited it because it was a nature reserve.

      One of the main problems with the Herald is its headlines, its articles can be OK, but some ass … hole puts a Daily Mail type headline on it.

    101. Legerwood says:

      Brian McHugh @ 6.39

      I did nit make any comparison between then and now. I corrected an error in dates and gave some additional information about the same period that may or may nit explain Tory popularity at a specific period in time.

      I made no comment whatsoever about the Tories’ current position.

    102. Sassenach says:

      Good to see ‘Son of Fluffy’ sitting directly behind Daddy (already spending a fortune on his own campaign in Dumfries, I believe!).

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 4 March, 2016 at 6:19 pm:

      ” … also Bathgate light truck factory in 1961. And the Corpach Pulp mill was early 60s. I’m sure there are other investments from that era in Scotland.”

      Not to mention all the defence establishments including the then largest single, one place, employer in Scotland. Rosyth Dockyard.

      There were, though, many smaller defence establishments, such as Stores Depots, Armaments Factories and Munitions Stores, and Test Facilities. Lastly we now have the Air fields and barracks going south.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      Probably also Albion Motors in Glasgow (Scotstoun?). In the 70s trucks were still made there as well as Bathgate and there was a lot of rivalry. I think Albion were red label and Bathgate blue but could be wrong.

    105. Sunniva says:

      @Brian McHugh. That’s my point entirely. I’m trying to explain that ‘Tory’ then isn’t the same as Tory now. As everyone who reads this site agrees, there is a compelling logic to Scottish independence. But in the 1950s that wasn’t a perspective shared by the majority. It still isn’t. But that’s not to say that Scots who voted Tory in 1955 weren’t patriotic, both in the British and the Scottish context. They thought Labour’s nationalisation programme simply shifted power out of Scotland. And they were right. Scottish assets, with English, were amalgamated into one national pot, but guess what, decisions about how the jam was to be spread were taken in London. Socialist internationalism was more of a danger to the recovery of our national sovereignty than the Tories of the 1950s. The Tories of 2016 are a different kettle of fish. They flogged off all the national silver in the 1980s and they’re still selling us down the river. But in the 60s and 70s they tried to revive Scottish industry, Ravenscraig and Linwood being prime examples. They failed, because paternalism is just another form of control.

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      Soon as I posted that I knew it was rubbish. Probably Albion were put out of business by Bathgate, which then disappeared itself.

    107. Lollysmum says:

      There was also the Royal Navy Air Engineering School at Arbroath where I trained. Used to be a Marines base till that was moved south.

      Seem to recall lots of military establishments dotted around Scotland in the late 60’s early 70’s. We even had a Sailing School/Club on the shores of a loch somewhere between Elgin & Inverness. Can’t remember exactly where-just remember practically living there at one point 🙂

      Ah-those were the days!

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, the Tories weren’t always bad news for Scotland. Until 1964, they mostly had a majority over Labour, 1959 Con 47.2%, Lab 46.7%.

    109. galamcennalath says:


      Well I remember Albion in 1979, still manufacturing, axles heaped up waiting to be fitted. I passed it every day.

      They had become part of British Leyland, and yes, all truck manufacturing was moved shortly after that to Bathgate.

    110. Tinto Chiel says:

      Regarding Churchill, I used to stay with an old Gaelic-speaking lady when I went climbing in Skye. During the war, and quite improbably, she had been fired off to England to work in a munitions factory. One day Winston came to visit the production line.

      When I asked what he was like, this mild-mannered woman got quite agitated. “Oh, he was a horrible, arrogant man. He ignored the workers on the line and smelt of drink.”

      At least the good folk of Dundee had the sense to run him out of their city on a rail.

      I’m sure the victims of Gallipoli would have approved.

    111. heedtracker says:

      Fireproofjim says:
      4 March, 2016 at 5:11 pm
      Heedtracker @4.48

      House of Cards was good, though. I knew Ian Richardson, an Edinburgh lad.

      The author is a ferocious toryboy NO camper. He may have connections with the North East of Scotland or maybe the Dee Valley but he was huge on the olde BBC Scotland vote NO or else Project Fear freak out, never off the tv or radio in the area.

      Dobbs also says that Gordon Brown very much redeemed and rehabbed himself to the UK for his role in saving teamGB/England’s control of their Scotland region. Gordon will be a happy UKOK chappy now, and almost as rich as Dobbs.

    112. X_Sticks says:

      Looks to me like auld Winston had had a meeting with Pol Roget before the address. I believe he met with Pol Roget every day in fact.

      I note with interest the increase in number of bottles of champagne bought by the House of Commons:

      Year:Number of bottles
      2010/2011: 4,691
      2011/2012: 5,832
      2012/2013: 6,600
      2013/2014: 8,082

      “House of Commons officials revealed that they have spent £275,221 buying in more than 25,000 bottles of champagne since the coalition took over in May 2010, which MPs and their staff can enjoy in Parliament’s bars and restaurants.” (from Huff Post)

      Plus ça change.

    113. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Anent Albion Motors. What finished-off Albion as truck manufacturers was the take-over by Leyland. The individual Albion models: Clydesdale, Clansman, Reiver etc continued for a time after the Leyland buy-out in 1951, but, gradually it became impossible, unless you looked at the badge, to distinguish a Leyland Bison From an Albion Clydesdale, or a Reiver (marvellous truck), from a Leyland Buffalo and so on.

      When Bathgate opened, it was owned by the Light/Meium truck side of Leyland, Albion was still in the Heavy Truck Division, but, the two divsions were merged and when whole truck manufacture ended at Scotstoun – around 190 – what models survived were built at Bathgate.

      Bathgate is long since closed, but, Albion still operates, manufacturing axles, although it was bought-out by management, then sold to an American company.

      What also did for Albion, Leyland and the BMC trucks made at Bthgate was a combination of factors, not least, bad design, terrible delivery times and the trucks simply were not as good as the Swedish and German alternatives.

    114. One_Scot says:

      Yes I may have had a few bottles of Stella Artois, but I think I may have had an epiphany.

      I have just suddenly realised the only way the SNP can ever possibly fail is if Scotland becomes Independent.

    115. heedtracker says:

      Churchillian bullshit from UKOK’s pig fancier champ, BBC vote Tory Scotland-

      “He added: “We are the party that can challenge the SNP – now the only party that can challenge the SNP.

      “They’ve been in power for nine years – they are the establishment.”

      ‘Layer of bureaucracy’

      He highlighted “stagnating” school attainment figures, “falling” numbers of college students, “cuts” in the help for poorer university students and “unfulfilled” spending on the NHS as being among the SNP’s “litany of failure” in government.

      The PM went on: “There’s even the absurd Named-Person policy, which ensures every child is allocated a guardian – even if they have parents; even if they have no need for this extra layer of bureaucracy.

      “Well I’ll tell you who needs a guardian – someone to keep them in check – it’s the SNP.

      “And it falls to us, the Conservatives, the only party fit to expose these spendthrift, out-of-touch, dogmatic, inept Nationalists for what they really are.”

      Full on BBC Scotland attacks on SNP tonight, and Fallon says he’s buying even more weaponry for his Scotland region. Having left a giant trail of death and destruction around the world, our imperial masters ain’t finished yet.

      I saw the head of BBC Scotland this evening weirdly enough. We were in the same room together, alone for about 15 minutes. He’s a very unhappy looking chap. That’s three Princes of Yoonery in a month. We watched Blair MacDougal’s miserable shop a couple of weeks ago and we saw Jim Murphy in a famous Swedish furnishing store a week earlier. Actually you hear Murphy long before you see him, cuts an impressively mad figure too.

      Is it the three yoons of the apocalypse, harbingers of UKOK doom.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      Herald – I think perhaps that headline about Clegg and dogging was cybernat-bait to get some juicy comments perhaps.

      It didn’t work, the few posters have uniformly condemned it.

    117. Nana says:


      The worst time in our PO/Spar/Subway is lunchtime when business folk get time to post. Some people are doing their shopping and schoolkids are in for a subway lunch and/or sweets.

      I’ve seen pensioners and mums with little ones being shoved, and it’s not always youngsters who can be very short tempered. Huffing and puffing from impatient people can stretch the nerves!

    118. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T

      Live Independence (Kevin) interviewing Craig Murray on now on blab.

    119. call me dave says:


      I had never considered that scenario. 🙂

      Nothing new for a while then… Geez, where’s Kezia or Baillie when you need them.

      Back to the footie 2nd half just starting.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sunniva says: 4 March, 2016 at 7:01 pm:

      ” … Scottish assets, with English, were amalgamated into one national pot, but guess what, decisions about how the jam was to be spread were taken in London.”

      I may well be wrong but the distinct impression I have always held of that period was rather more simplistic than the deliberate political will to strip Scottish assets for England.

      It was more sheer incompetence of governance coupled with an inability to understand basic economics. It worked, (or rather it didn’t work), like this.

      They now call it Boom & Bust years but I believe they just didn’t understand what they were doing. They would tinker round the edges of the economy in an effort to stimulate a flagging economy.

      The result was a time delayed beginning of the next boom. However, the next boom would begin in and around London and start to spread outwards. The problem was the Treasury fingers on the pulse were then, (as now), on London.

      As the boom took hold the economy first improved and then began to overheat and the same Treasury fingers were still on the London Pulse and the Treasury applied the brakes to cool down the economy and this did, of course, work.

      The trouble then, as now, was that the outward spreading boom had not yet arrived in Scotland when the Treasury applied the brakes and while the Treasury actions that began the boom were an slowly outward spreading effect the brakes on the economy were instant and UK wide.

      So while London and the South were going boom-bust-boom bust the Scottish economy was going bust-bust-bust-bust and no booms.

      This is, more or less, still the case and is the reason the high percentage North Sea taxation is killing the Oil & Gas industries.

      Put simply the regulation of the UK economy is set to suit London’s economy and Scotland never really sees any benefits from the regulation applied by Westminster.

      It is only now, with the oil & gas revenues all going directly to London, that the UK, as a whole, suffers the effects more than Scotland.

      If their was anyone in the Treasury with any brains they would not be screaming the utter piffle that the oil prices are showing Scotland’s economy is dependent on oil for the truth is that as London grabs all the revenues it is London’s economy that is taking the hit.

      It effect Scottish industry by mainly by losing the jobs but it is the treasury that is losing the revenues and that includes the revenues from the company returns from London Head Offices and from those workers incomes paid from those same head offices.

      Ossie is frightened to cut the tax and thus make the debt worse but by failing to do so he is losing revenues and he cannot afford to do that either.

    121. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Hi, good to see you!!

    122. shug says:

      The key question for no voters looking ahead to the coming election is has London provided good governance of Scotland.
      If the answer is yes then clearly their no vote was correct.
      However I would make a few observations
      1 fifty years ago Scotland was manufacturing almost 50’/, of the world’s shipping with all the infrastructure that involved
      2 there was a car and truck manufacturing capability and there was the infrastructure to build the Forth bridge
      3 over 30 of these years Scotland was also the 13 largest oil producer in the world
      4 today we have none of the above and nothing to show for the oil and you can’t drive a mile without hitting a pot hole
      5 in the same period Germany rebuilt her industry after the war. So did Japan and Korea. London too has seen it’s economy grow significantly

      So the question is has London rule really worked for Scotland? Have they done a good job and should they be retained in power

      I think the answer is self evident

    123. Chic McGregor says:

      @Nana, Arbroath1320

      TBF the PO moving to a newsagent in Kirrie has been OK, but then he has gone about it right. Separate wee counter and till and queuing lane both manned.

      Mind you the missed parcel pick up point is still in the old PO building.

    124. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Nana: I see you’ve been up to all your usual linking tricks.

      Where would we be without you?

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh dear, I see the Herald has deleted all the comments but left the headline wrong, misleading, and implicitly defamatory.

      What a Daily Mail rag.

    126. Sunniva at 2.28

      David Murray of Cambuslang wrote extensively against the nationalisation of the steel industry in the late 50s/early sixties pointing out that that would take the decision making of the totally integrated Scottish steel industry out of Scottish hands.
      He was so right

    127. indigo says:

      The most disgusting thing about that specific Post Office closure that @Arbroath1320 mentioned is that the consumer watchdog that’s supposedly overseeing post office modernisations was also completely opposed to this particular closure for a whole host of reasons – quite a bit of detail on it here:

      For Mundell to come out with a statement like that is absolutely disgraceful. It’s disappointing that the newspaper even gave him space on the page when he’s had nothing at all to do with the campaign.

    128. ScottishPsyche at 1.52

      I spent an interesting day with a young Tory Teddy Taylor at a Glasgow City council by election in Drumoyne. As we stood outside the polling station (I think it was a the David Elder School or the David Elder hospital) all day we did a lot of chatting. Teddy had been a member of the Glasgow University Nationalist Club. I was supporting the candidacy of a young Andrew Welsh of the Craigton Branch of the SNP. Andrew went onto a long career as the MP for Angus.

      I asked Teddy why he had gone Tory. He conceded that as he wanted a political career the SNP at that point wasn’t an option. He went on to represent Cathcart constituency as Tory MP for many years relying to some extent on a “cloth cap” Tory vote which to a considerable extent was a nice way of saying an Orange vote.

      What was interesting was Teddy’s evaluation of a number of prominent Labour figures who had been contemporaries of his at Glasgow University. He was scathing. “Never Labour in their lives” was his judgement. “They just wanted to be MPs”. Donald Dewar was in that number and Neil Carmichael and perhaps John Smith and several others.

      I wrote to Teddy a number of years ago when he was MP for a south of England seat where he had fled following the Tory wipe-out in Scotland and he replied interestingly to say he might have made a more exciting decision all those years ago and wishing us luck.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      Delete that – must have been a glitch, comments back.

    130. Tinto Chiel says:

      Don’t you think it conceivable that some Unionist opposition to the Named Person legislation might simply reflect their concerns that children might have more protection from paedophiles?

      Or am I being too cynical?

    131. Ken500 says:

      Ravenscraig, , Bathgate, Lynwood, Corpath, Thatcher took them away. Along with the coal industry, the ship industry, Oi & Gas. Left Faslane but took all the maintenance jobs to Davenport. McMillian wanted to site Nuclear dump it at Fort William but the US would not agree.

      Thatcher came to Edinburgh and made the Speech on the Mound. ‘We English are generous to you Scots’. She was secretly salting all the Oil & Gas revenues away, to build up London. Thatcher wrote, ‘this must be kept secret on Treasury documents. Kept secret under Official Secrets Act – 30 year rule- Uhtil last year.

    132. Sunniva says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill. These are really interesting stories about Teddy Taylor and his nationalist inclinations. The sympathy for Tories in Scotland in the 50s and 60s was because they did oppose Labour nationalisation which they rightly argued would see control of many facets of Scottish industry taken away from Scotland. So support was patriotic. To think that Labour then derided the SNP as ‘tartan Tories’ because many in the SNP at that time were not of the working class ‘cloth cap’ variety but concerned educated people who opposed nationalisation and the loss of Scotland’s independent industrial and business sector, is hypocritical given what Teddy told you, ‘they were never Labour in their lives’.

      People need to realise that when the combined ‘Tory’ vote exceeded 50% in 1955, it wasn’t because voters then were less Scottish or less patriotic than now. Or were a different race with different values. But because many considered that Labour nationalisation was a con. And they were right. Not only were decisions taken in London during the time that nationalised industries and utilities existed, but the fact that the British state had gained control of them meant that after 1979 Thatcher could proceed to sell them off to foreigners. Labour didn’t see that one coming, did they? But those Scottish ‘Tory’ voters who saw Scottish control of steel and coal leach away from them just felt it in their bones that Scotland would not be the winner by this in the longer term.

      And they were right.

    133. J galt says:

      Winston in favour of a Scottish State Railways – would’ve thought.

      Mind you that was quickly dropped when they got back!

      A bit of condescending flattery to keep the moth-eaten British show on the road.

    134. Clootie says:

      “…. That was a period when the Unionists and then the Tories could draw on the vast popular reserves of working-class Protestantism, a period when sectarian divisions were strong, when a commitment to the Union, enshrined in key institutions from the Church of Scotland to the Boys’ Brigade, provided the Tories with large swathes of support. And that was a period which, by the 1960s, was drawing to a close, as religion’s social role declined and sectarian divisions lost their heat”

      Divide and Rule. It remains the cornerstone of Imperial manipulation. The period covered in the article, the high point of Tory popularity, was built on a foundation of bigotry.

      Only a divided Scotland can ensure the union continues.

    135. Ken500 says:

      The NE of Scotland always voted for Alex Salmond.

      They saw the meters turning on the rigs

      That was funny # ‘ The Tories have all the money, they know what they are doing’.

      How times have changed. The Tories had all the money but the bankers ran away with it’.

    136. Giving Goose says:


      And Labour built it’s power base on bigotry; which it continues to nurture!

    137. ScottishPsyche says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      That is really interesting. I have heard similar disparaging stuff about about Donald Dewar but wasn’t aware of Teddy Taylor’s nationalist leanings. I was always suspicious of his following in that area but it makes sense about the OO.

      Having said that, he inspired a lot of loyalty amongst non Tory voters as he did work hard for his constituency. He was known to have some very ‘strong ‘ views on things like corporal punishment.

      It is quite fascinating the stories of what a Tory is. My experience is, like many, coloured by Thatcher but there were some quite mild old style Tories who hated her. For me, Thatcher has left a legacy of cruelty and destruction which makes Tories irredeemable for ever.

    138. heedtracker says:

      “George Osborne backs down on radical pension reform
      Less than a fortnight before the budget, chancellor fears backlash from affluent voters against measures including cut in tax relief for higher earners”

      Rancid The Graun tonight, toryboy fear of affluent voters backlash?

      Its a toryboy world.

    139. Ken500 says:

      Murdoch’s 2nd wife Anna Torv was born in Glasgow.

    140. Sunniva says:

      Alec Buchanan Smith was another popular Tory. Died young, before his time. Of the same stamp as Teddy Taylor.

    141. Arbroath1320 says:

      Just a wee update re our Post Office *ahem* relocation. I have read in our local paper, the same article that carries our (UN)distinguished MP’s comments, that our current Postmaster has confirmed that a large number of villagers have been in and cancelled their post office accounts. Not only that but they will be avoiding the SPAR due to the restraints and concerns folks still have with the SPAR.

      To be honest I don’t think many folks are surprised about this outcome. We had a village meeting in January concerning this move and the ONLY response we got from the P.O. representative was “I’ll look into that!” Erm excuse me but being the P.O. representative I and every one else really did expect a hell of a lot more than “I’ll look into that!”

      I have to admit I was, like everyone else, gobsmacked by her response to the question “Have you looked at the location of the SPAR?”

      “Yes” she said … “we drove past it on the way here tonight!”

      My analysis after that meeting was mirrored by many others … WE smelt a RAT and were of the opinion that even before the end of the consultation period the decision to close our post office had ALREADY been made!

    142. Les Wilson says:

      In truth Churchill was a racial bigot. His love of Scots never came into his mind when apparently and secretly at the time, agreed with his military advisers the should the Nazis invade Scotland, England should abandon it to it’s fate!

      The same man abandoned the Highland Brigade at St Valery near Dunkirk to allow the “miracle of Dunkirk” to be enacted.

      Left without ammunition, they were sacrificed and thousands had to surrender. Most were shipped to work camps and ammunition factories in Germany. Many never survived.

      It was something he could rarely not bring himself to talk about, no doubt ashamed of showing just who were of prime importance to him.

    143. Effijy says:

      Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Euro and all the odious apparatus of BritNat rule, we shall not flag or fail.

      We shall go on to the end, we shall not quake in our pants,
      we shall fight for Scotland’s Oil and Crustaceans,
      we shall fight for their growing conifers and glowing 70 proof strength. In the air, we shall defend our Colony, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight these heathen leeches,
      we shall fight them on unjust grounds,
      we shall fight in the oil fields and where SNP meets,
      we shall fight with our shills;
      we will No surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Colony or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire in London, armed and guarded by the English Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the News of the World, with all its electoral power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.”

    144. heedtracker says:

      Says Graun

      “Scottish Tory leader abandons call for lower taxes
      Ruth Davidson has undertaken U-turn after learning George Osborne is considering deeper spending cuts”

      Says BBC vote Tory Scotland

      “Future tax cuts in Scotland possible, says Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson

      Scottish Conservative Party leader Ruth Davidson believes a tax cut in Scotland is possible when the nation can afford it.”


      One tory MP. one tory BBC Scotland, one rancid The Graun all in total control of their Scotland region.

    145. Marga says:

      OT, but to cheer people up: Scotland and Scottish cities seem to do very well in this rating:

      Financial Times European Cities and Regions of the Future 2016/2017 Rating.

    146. Sunniva AT 11.16

      Alick Buchanan Smith was indeed interesting. When I was Winnie Ewing’s agent in 1969/70 she was in discussion with Buchanan Smith, John Robertson, a Labour Lothian MP and a Liberal whom I can’t remember(but a substantial figure).
      The four of them had a meeting which went on till dawn about Scotland’s constitutional future and Winnie was sure she had won the argument and that they would get a plan together to become a cross party campaign for Scottish Independence. Buchanan Smith then died very suddenly after of some form of cancer and John Robertson soon followed and nothing came of it

    147. Onwards says:

      Of course the SNP was an insignificance back then, so Churchill was free to play the nationalist card and patronise Scots as a tactic to get them to vote Tory.

      Just look at them now..

      Conceding only the minimal amount of devolution they could get away with, and then trying to impose an extra £7 billion of future cuts while their politicians in Scotland stayed silent.

      And working themselves into a frenzy at the prospect of a SINGLE outwards looking Scottish news programme.

    148. Brian McHugh says:

      Legerwood and sunniva, I think we are all on more or less the same wavelength, but any minor disagreements will have to be replied to on my part (cos i have had a few jars tonight 🙂 )… tomorrow.

      Hail Alba 😉

    149. Sandy says:

      Was this the same Churchill who, when rejected by the Dundee electorate, swore that he would return the city to green fields.
      The man was, in all essence, an aristocratic asshole.

    150. ArtyHetty says:

      Can I just ask if anyone knows at which point the most rabidly loyal liebour supporters are at in terms of their mourning of the demise of said party?

      I only mention this having had an interesting and a tad heated, argument, (apparently I was very aggressive) with some dear old friends, diehard labour, hatethesnp4eva types tonight.

      Without being patronising, there seems to be some deep level of denial, and lots of blame, and the usual, you are ‘all conspiracy theorists’ stuff going on. I do truly think that some old diehard, labour could do no wrong believers folks, are possibly on the cusp of coming to realise they have been had, big style.

      I do hope that I got my point over that being a ‘socialist’ ( ie having socialist values) is not just unique to the liebour party.

      It did not end well, sorry Mr Shakespeare man.

    151. Al Dossary says:

      Aaah, the very same Churchill who at Gallipoli as Admiral decided NOT to shell the Turkish positions for the 24 hours that the battle plan called for. They shelled for the sum total of 20 minutes the Turkish guns

      The self same Churchill who in 1911 had 3,500 troops on the streets of Liverpool to quell a strike and HMS antrim moored with guns trained on the city.

      A man who Thatcher idolised, but in all of her worst incarnations I think Thatcher came no where close to being as nasty and evil as Churchill was. Unfortunately all of the nasty things he was involved in seem to have been airbrushed out of the history we are taught.

    152. Ken500 says:

      Sleeping on the job

      A mass distribution of wee blue book is needed now for Holyrood May 2016, EU, May 2017 and IndyRefTwa.

      Churchill was an alcoholic. Alcoholics made poor judgements without proper total abstinence counselling. Churchill was most worried about where his next drink was coming. A danger to himself and others. Britain did not win the 11WW, protecting the West. Russia did. Russians made the most sacrifice in an ‘imperialist capitalist’ War, in which the majority did not want to be a part. 26Million and a devastated economy.

      Glasgow had been hiding under a bushel. Top UK city £20Billion worth of style. Who’d have thought it. If you have got it, flaunt it. Glasgow makes people smile. [ ; > }

      To save a post office. Get someone trained up to run it.

      Between a Rock and a hard place, A two thousand people, unrepresentative survey does not give any relevant accurate information of the choice of a whole mass category of voters.

      Racism and ageism is unattractive, unnecessary and counter productive. Newpaper purchase is a personal choice.

    153. Breeks says:

      @Ken 500

      Ken, for 15 years my business has struggled to survive in an area blighted by endemic corruption, nepotism, collusion, parochialism, and sheer ignorance. It is very real, it rarely even bothers to deny the accusations made against it.

      On four occasions I have been desperate enough to seek some form of justice; not for my own sake, but to save the jobs of four apprentices; to assist a commercial innovation with industry wide ramifications; to raise the bar and see jobs done properly by people who actually know what they are doing. I say justice, and by justice, please don’t assume I mean to pursue damages or agitate lynch mobs for the culprits. Truth be known I detest the compensation culture and all its feral parasites. My justice means sleazy Teflon jobsworths being pinned down to answer questions; prejudicial decisions explained; double standards explained; liars and cheats being obliged to confront their dishonesty. I don’t want their hands cut off, I just wish the corruption to stop so this is a better place for all to do business. And don’t think either I am a white suited evangelist with a mission to burn heretics. I don’t go looking for corruption, I just detest the corruption which finds its way to me. I want them to do their jobs with appropriate integrity. I consider myself a person of good character, and I will hold my ground in defence of those who need defending; myself included.

      All of that counts for nothing. Absolutely nothing. On every occasion, referring issues of corruption/prejudice/injustice to my MP, MSP, and even government Minister has been a complete and utter waste of time. Never mind any corrective measures, the persons involved, (who, by chance are SNP), have each done less than nothing to further my grievances. I mean that literally. Barely a single question I have raised has been pursued to an answer. Instead, it is myself who has been hung out to dry and abandoned to the whims of the rogues who needed brought into line in the first place.

      I expected better from the SNP, but they seemed lacking in all round sophistication or judgement to recognise when they are being sold a pup, and their attitude towards corruption and impropriety seems alarmingly niaive; so niaive in fact it raises graver concerns, if you follow me. Nobody is that gullible…

      So, while the SNP revels inside it’s invisible cloak of steel which deflects all questions, my business remains here in purgatory, flat lining to be frank, isolated and ex communicated. And I still don’t have one single answer to a single question. Instead, one minister for whom I reserve special scorn, despite ignoring every issue set before him, describes the conduct of vermin as “exemplary”. That Minister surely isn’t deaf, dumb, or blind, so that leaves stupid, or rotten as sin too.

      So now we come to the “shut up” part of business. Don’t rock the boat. We all need to make sacrifices for the greater good and see our country liberated. Yes. I know. That’s the page I’m reading from too. But every now and then, one of these political husks who hung me out to dry gets left in charge of something important and it scares the fucking life out of me. They are men of straw and a very poor choice of champion.

      There is a storm coming; and that storm will see the BBC’s corruption and propaganda finally swept from our Livingrooms, or it won’t, and the propagandist sleaze bags will win… Again. This one issue will be the defining issue in the next chapter of Scotland’s story. From my own personal experience, I am not at all sure the SNP has enough backbones for the job. They are not deaf, dumb, or blind…

      Broadcasting is our Rubicon. It is the battle we must win or we cannot win the war. We get over it, or we get turned back. Trusting in luck, which seems the current SNP strategy, just isn’t going to cut it.

      Without even a suggestion of criticism, this Wings site holding the rancid media to account, and spreading the word via the Wee Blue Book remain for me the defining issues of the first Indyref. But why was something so vital left to an online blog? Thank god for Rev Stu. Who could have expected to much to come from so humble an origin? But how can I put it delicately? … Thank god wings was there to catch the ball, because I am still waiting for the SNP to turn up. No change there…

    154. BJ says:

      Breeks says:

      My MSP is SNP and like you I went to see him to try to get an issue sorted out regarding what I saw as fraud by a very large public company who are funded by the SG.

      Might as well have talked to my cat. I will keep voting for him because I see the SNP as the only party who will get Scottish Independence.

      Would I vote for him in an Independant Scotland? Absolutely NOT.!!

    155. Chic McGregor says:

      Another great collection of links Nana.

    156. Dave Hill says:

      See if I have some controversial point to make I always use my full name. That is a discipline that helps to ensure that I talk what I believe to be accurate and the truth.

    157. bugsbunny says:


      You said Winnie played the fiddle at Ibrox. Compared to the depravations that this country went through during the war and afterwards foodwise, this fat git might have been called on the fiddle today. He and his ilk never starved only us oiks. Fat pig. Look from 5.00 minutes onwards.


    158. David says:

      I think what is fundamentally missing from Scottish politics at the present time is politicians from the mainstream UK parties that can in anyway convince substantial numbers of voters that they genuinely have the interests of Scotland to the forefront of their work and their politics. I also think we have now reached the point where the only way, as a minimum position, that they will regain this is credibility is to belong to parties that have a fully functioning and convincing autonomy from their the UK version of their parties. If they want to support the union they need to do it from inside parties that are not hamstrung by the the need to constantly seek approval from a London based head office and leadership. The tightrope walking toadies that currently run or feature prominently in the Scottish versions of the Labour and Conservative parties have little chance of regaining any ground until they, or more probably their successors, wake up one day and smell the roses.

    159. Nana says:

      @Chic McGregor

      Glad you enjoyed the links and didn’t miss them.

      I was rushing to get them posted this morn, and as Chris’s cartoon was newly posted I did not want to disturb the thread.

    160. michael diamond says:

      Cearc 4th 1.52pm. It would be interesting to see if camoron really could fill ibrox. Wouldnt surprise me.

    161. john king says:

      Al Dossary
      re Churchill
      Its been said that the defeat Gallipoli was engineered by Churchill to cajole the Russians in on our side in the Turkish theatre.

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