The fruits of apartheid
A new study reported at the weekend has found disturbing levels of sectarian beliefs among pupils at Scotland’s 357 Catholic schools. But there was an interesting twist – sectarianism was higher among the pupils who WEREN’T practicing Catholics.
Whatever could be the explanation?
As it happened, we had some recent poll data.
By a significant margin (14 points, compared to 2 points in England and -8 in Wales), Scots were the least supportive of all British voters of the idea of separating children at school on religious grounds.
It doesn’t seem a wild supposition that this might be because Scotland has had a far worse historical problem with sectarian bigotry than either England or Wales. (And according to the study, a current one too.)
Perhaps surprisingly, young people – and women far more than men – were the most supportive of religious segregation, possibly because they didn’t experience the worst of sectarianism in the latter half of the 20th century. The only groups in favour overall were women between 16 and 54, with older women and all men against.
Indeed, age was the only notable dividing line on the subject, despite claims from academics that constitutional politics, not religion, was behind the rise in sectarianism that has followed the 2018 abolition of the popular Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act:
Because highly unusually, there was nothing between Yes and No voters:
Nor did Remainers and Leavers hold diverging views on the subject:
And there was very little political difference either – Tory, Lib Dem and SNP voters were all only one percentage point apart, with Labour split down the middle.
Nor was there much of a class divide, so to speak:
More than anywhere else on the UK mainland, Scotland is distinctly uncomfortable with the idea of splitting kids up by religion, even though it’s a matter that isn’t on the political agenda at all – no party supports ending the practice and bar the odd random newspaper article it’s never debated.
The Glasgow University study may offer a clue as to why. Because it doesn’t appear to be Catholic teaching or politics or poverty that causes sectarianism. It’s the simple fact of keeping two groups of children apart from each other from a very young age for no educational or economic reason that causes them to regard each other with suspicion. And tragically for Scotland, it looks like it always will.
Its not just the kids of one religion someone tell me why we need to have separate schools
When I was a kid, our next door neighbours were catholic and even though we all played together all the time, we had to go to separate schools which didn’t seem odd at the time. It’s bloody ridiculous now considering that sectarianism is the equivalent of racism. Racism is a crime and rightly so and sectarians and sectarianism should be treated in the same manner.
There is no place for it in the 21st century, not even in Scotland.
I have had arguments about educational segregation many times. Only in Scotland can you be called a bigot for being against segregation.
I remember asking my old dear why I was going to a different school from the new pals in the next close.
I didn’t get an answer and have never heard a decent explanation since – that’s over 50 years, still waiting…
🙁
As a point of principle, I don’t like segregated schooling, but it’s a complete dead issue as far as the current election (and the further indy campaign) is concerned.
And so it should be. We don’t need any more distractions, we have enough already, what with devolved vs reserved issues and suchlike. They only help opponents of independence.
First things first.
Utterly depressing, but very useful tool to divide and rule a population. The Brits used in India as well.
There is no reason not to have different religious instruction withing a single school system. That is what happens here in Finland. Luckily my son dodged all the sky fairy stuff entirely, going to general social instruction studies, him being neither Lutherian, nor Orthodox (a product of nominal French Catholic mother and Presbyterian Scot father).
A great fact based article and a view I have held my entire life. I was fortunate enough to have two sensible parents , irish catholic mother and protestant father, where religion had no part of my life and neither side of the religious divide was viewed with scepticism, just head scratching bewilderment .
Im sure all could still worship their god either on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday (whoever he may be) and remove religion from our education system all together.
It’s one of the things that I hope we can address after Indy!
Once again I suspect that the way the media report this stuff has a role to play.
We need to start calling this out for what it is.
It’s segregation.
It’s Jim Crow schooling.
Separate but Equal, but never described as such.
We don’t do it in University and the world didn’t end, why segregate at 5?
When it’s honestly called out for what it is then we might make some progress…
I’ve always held that to integrate the schools would end sectarianism in a generation !
Publicly funded schools should be secular… If the religious want a doctrine taught in schools they should fund them without any help from Scottish tax payers.
We should recognise this survey for what it ells us.
Sectarianism in Scotland is in the genes.lumpen Scotland is alive and well
I wonder whether you could notice a difference if you could have separated them by region.
I grew up in East Lothian. My mother was Church of Scotland (didn’t attend church though) and my Step Dad Catholic. My cousins went to the local Catholic school, I did not. Our friends, adults and children, were both Catholic and protestant. The flute band marched down my street, and I never even knew what it was about except that it was ‘a church thing’. I had no idea sectarianism even existed until I was a teenager and became aware of it happening in other parts of Scotland.
I think where in Scotland you were brought up, or gave lived, might have a big impact on your opinions on this.
Incidentally, I’m a primary teacher and I think that religion should have absolutely no place in schools except as part of learning about different cultures and beliefs.
Kids are innocent. Parents with ingrown bigotry are the real issue. They pass it down to their children as something precious to be va!ued.
Other major cities like Liverpool had exactly the same problem, bug have dealt with it, though it stil! rears its head from time to time, mainly on footbal! days.
Footbal! in Scotland is the incubator of sectarianism. The parents and relatives of kids indoctrinate them into the church of hate for the other side.
It can be overcome ,but it is societal and therefore requires long term actions.
Divide and conquer,
Catholic – Protestant,
Jew – Muslim,
Sunni – Shia,
Right Wing – Left Wing,
East – West,
Socialism – LibDem/Tory,
establishment know that if you have an enemy you will not focus on the them,
and if you get to big they promote your enemy.
It might be an easier sell if supposedly non-denominational schools didn’t have CoS ministers coming in and if the singing of hymns and reciting of prayers was removed altogether.
If Scotland didn’t have sectarianism we’d have voted for Independence in 2014
The British knew what they were doing with this tactic, it’s worked in Northern Ireland very well for them, and of course there was India and Pakistan and there was….well it goes on and on, wherever you can find a divide make it bigger or create it and bingo…you rule
Many years ago Singapore had serious race problems with different ethnic groups inhabiting different areas etc, their solution was to make all government housing reflect the national percentages, so for example if the national census showed15% Indian then 15% of a block of flats had to house Indians. As time went by everyone got used to each other, years later no race problem.
Job done
Just to say I went to a catholic school and in my class there was a protestant and a Muslim. The protestant was sent to our school as he was kicked out of his. He was accepted without issue likewise in my high school also catholic, there were many muslims and protestants and other Faith’s.
It is simply false to say children are separated based on faith. Please update you article. A faith based school nowadays do not place any where near the amount of attention on faith as they did in the far past. Times have changed, it would be illegal for a catholic school to stop other Faith’s attending and in fact many muslims and protestant parents send their children to catholic schools because they have a reputation for achievement amongst parents and often out perform their local protestant school.
Might be worth correcting the article I’m sure it was just a honest mistake.
really really clever questions for an opinion poll stu, take a bow mate.
the results really give food for thought
but the snp avoid such contentious issues, especially during elections and within touching distance of indy. they endevour to bring together as many people as possible, not drive them apart. it was the same with the issue of nato and the monarch (both of which i want to see the back off)
why create an issue where there is none at the mo? (i could say the same for GRA btw)
however, once indy, such questions will come to the forefront,
why? cos ill make sure they do
Dr Jim@5.38
You sum it up perfectly, in a Brexit UK it will be a million times worse, with certain religions demanding extra security at places of education and worship. Certain LIB DUM politicians mentioned ring fencing funding for such a thing on LBC last week. (IMHO a waste of tax payers money) it just helps to keep the paranoid, “paranoid.”
Keeping the population divided, paranoid of each other, and stopping debate, and you have control.(after all we are not supposed to think for ourselves, we have elected geniuses in power to think for us)!!!???
Simples.
Stu, you should have made it clear that this is really only the situation that exists across the Central Belt. Our local High School in North Mainland, Shetland is multi-faith. It’s left to parents to ensure RE for their children if they so desire. But as someone said let’s bury this as we have more important issues to sort out.
I spent most of my childhood growing up in London in the 1960’s and 70s (moving to Glasgow when I was 13 and have lived in Scotland ever since). I attended a Catholic primary and secondary school in London (both local authority run) and had no awareness of or experience of sectarianism until I moved to Scotland. Separate Catholic schools exist throughout the world (not just England) without “causing” sectarianism, which suggests that the origins of sectarianism in Scotland has nothing to do with separate schooling. This is also borne out by the fact that anti-Catholic sectarianism in Scotland predates separate Catholic state schools which were set up because of the experience of sectarianism. Attempting to close down separate Catholic schools does not strike me as a way to end sectarianism but reinforce it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EQCpQbUrzI
Yes its absolutely ridiculous that children are sent to different schools for no good reason. All children in Scotland should be sent to non-denominational schools, after all school are for learning, to gain an education.
A change in the law might bear fruit in later years with regards to sectarianism. However I fear that if the subject came onto the Holyrood agenda, once again like the OBFA the unionists would vote it down, in a bid to keep us divided.
Like many we were split up age five, my best friend, went to Catholic primary with our other pal, and my other friend and I went to the local non Catholic school.
The funniest thing was my Granny and her eldest brother had also gone to the Catholic primary until she told my Great Granny that she was being continually beaten by the Nuns. Her mother was Protestant, her Husband. Catholic. Gran ended up at the school I went to.
We need a non religious education system, they manage it in many countries. I will say my friends and I stayed friends for a long time, but we could not talk about school and that is a bad thing
It’s the 21st century; there’s zero justification for segregated or faith based education, nor should anyone progressive be advocating it or supporting it. The Scotland we want to see should aspire to fully comprehensive education for every child in their nearest school. If parents insist on educating their children in faith schools, let them pay for it privately. Such schools certainly shouldn’t receive public money or tax breaks.
It’s disingenuous to defend segregated schools because they perform better (@ Jamie 5.46PM) as performance differentials are often attributable to the fact such schools cherry pick their intakes. the same goes for arguments that they let token numbers of other faiths or non-believers in; that doesn’t justify the segregation by faith experienced by the others.
Religion should be studied as an academic subject &/or as part of civics or philosophy. If parents want their children to learn about the faith the choose for their children, let them do it in their own time and with their own resources.
So, in England and Wales, where they’re either ambivalent or supportive of faith schools, there’s less of a sectarian issue. But in Scotland, there’s much less support for faith schools and a much greater sectarian problem.
But from some of the replies here, the issue is apparently the schools themselves (clearly as opposed to the entrenched attitudes that makes people suspicious of faith schools).
Hmmm.
Once again BBC and STV fail to mention that cancer waiting times are better in Scotland than in England. More bias as they know fine this is an issue for many voters
Republicofscotland @ 6-18pm
Left a couple of posts for you on the ‘Oor Wullie’ thread…lol
Sinky @ 6-40pm
I know….when oh when is Keith Brown’s ‘rebuttal unit’ going to kick back!!!
Andy Ellis, it seems you want to close faith based schools based on your extremist atheist views rather than anything else. You should check your own views rather than screaming ban ban ban.
As I pointed out my school whilst called a catholic school was already multi faith and far from cherry picking welcomed a student expelled from their protestant school, a protestant student. He was welcomed in my catholic school by the school and the students.
You should really reflect on your own intolerance. Notice how Catholics are not excluding anyone based on faith but atheists are trying to ban Catholic schools. Seems Catholic hate is alive and well.
What I see here is probably just the opinion that Catholic schools should be abolished and they are forced to attend non-denominational schools (effectively protestant in my time). In fact without the religious information in the poll it doesn’t give this clarity. The comments here don’t reflect an open opinion but just the same bigotry masquerading as compromise.
I’m not a Catholic by the way, or anything, although just in case I’m wrong I have often made a deal with god. Even as an atheist I don’t believe I should foster my beliefs on others.
Well done Paul, I think you worded it far more eloquent than me 😀
Once-upon-a-time it was about jobs – to paraphrase Billy Connelly: d’you you know many Catholic electricians of a certain-age? Today it’s about a confused and baseless triumphalism, a folk-memory of the good-old-days of Empire, wherein everyone knew-their-place. Segregated schooling isn’t the central cause of sectarianism, but it’s done nothing to improve the situation in my life-time.
So not about PW Botha’s party trick then!
We could add a third element to the melting pot, with economic educational segregation there to provide the replacement contingent of pre-programmed proud Scot’s butt’s.
Without the ‘other’ to focus your frustration upon, where would we be?
Can’t have the pleb’s think for themselves, or the games up.
I’m not in any way religious. I have suspicions that here in Scotland sectarianism isn’t being caused by religion or the schools, it’s being fostered by the dark side of Unionism. Religion, and the schools, are the excuse. A cover even.
How many sectarian trouble makers are actually practising Christians of either denomination? Few, I would opine.
Well..on a lighter note,I’m grateful to my primary school (which was mixed faith) for developing my love of fish!
The Roman Catholics had to have fish on Friday…so we all did!
I loved it because I don’t remember being served fish very often(unless we stopped at the ‘chippy’ in Helensburgh) cos Dad was very much a ‘meat and two veg’man.
Just sayin…
galamcennalath @ 6-58pm
Well Rooth the Mooth certainly played that card to ‘good’ (Tory) effect in 2017.
Catholic schools are in state education systems the world over with little to no sectarian problems yet in Scotland you actually have decent educated people who would argue for their closure on the grounds that they are the cause of sectarianism. The same argument expanded would be that there would be no racism if there were no black people or homophophobia is only an issue because there are gay people. Sectarianism is an issue in Scotland because of its promotion by the British establishment and there house jock hingers oan and the fact that a significant minority of the Scottish population are fuckin moronic.
Galamcennalath I agree with you. Protestants and Catholics use the sign of the cross but this seems to offend some probably a minority of Rangers fans. Presumably they don’t attend church of Scotland and bless themselves.
Always made me laugh the whole Arthur Boruc and how he offensively blessed himself according to the Rangers quadrants of the media and one or two politicians one of which was SNP said he aggressively blessed himself ?
The truth is trouble makers will find trouble if it is not religion it will be the colour of skin, if not it will be gender and no doubt in the future fickle people will hop on some other reason and cause mayhem regardless of the majority who innocently practise their faith, have black skin, have a different gender or whatever the new excuse is.
We can all get along and be friends without banning stuff or intruding on other peoples rights.
Stu, why the hell have you brought this up now, of all times. You’re only going to encourage the Neolithic knuckle draggers to stir the shit.
Not very prudent.
@Jamie 6.47PM
It’s hardly extreme atheism to believe education should be inclusive, universal, comprehensive and free. Religion should have no place in the education of our children apart from being studied as an academic subject like any other. I don’t want any child educated in a faith based institution, whether it’s Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, CofS or anything else. Educational segregation of children on the basis of religion is never going to do anything to tackle sectarianism, here or anywhere else.
The English situation may be somewhat different, but the principle remains. When we lived in Sussex, the nearest primary school to our home was a Catholic school; I didn’t want my child educated in a faith school, not that she’d have been accepted as we aren’t Catholics and they were over quota because they accepted kids from a wide catchment area. Similarly, the nearest co-ed High School was CofE; we were specifically told not to bother even applying if we weren’t regular church-goers; of course they accepted a few token “other faith groups”.
Of course tackling sectarianism in Scottish society isn’t ONLY or even mostly down to schools; it is attributable to a wide range of factors, social, historical and political. However, the idea that we can tackle, let alone solve, the problem of sectarianism in our society and culture by having faith based schools is just risible.
Paul says:
But from some of the replies here, the issue is apparently the schools themselves (clearly as opposed to the entrenched attitudes that makes people suspicious of faith schools).
Hmmm.
———–
is that what stus poll says?
This article doesn’t sit well with me.
The starting point for the article is the Sun report based on attitudes at Catholic schools however there is no comparable information for protestant pupils presumably because state schools are seen as non-denominational. However growing up in a state school it was always a Church of Scotland Minister at school functions, we always had ‘God save the queen’ at the end of School religious services so that’s a bit of a stretch. There are however recognised schools of other faiths so why pick on the Catholic schools to measure sectarian attitudes?
Rangers were fined by Uefa not for sectarian signing but for racism https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/08/23/uefa-judge-rangerss-chants-racist-close-stand-punishment-3000/ . It would seem that only in Scotland and Northern Ireland would we distinguish acts that are discriminatory as ‘sectarian’. Why do we do that?
Well the answer is, I think is in part in Rev Stu’s polling. Look at percentage of males over 55 who says it not acceptable to send kids to separate schools based on religion and then think of the age profile of the orange order and ultimately the pro-Union vote in Scotland and you start to think that calling racism ‘sectarian’ is an excuse to legitimise behaviour the British state needs to divide and conquer.
Marry that thought with the understanding that Catholicism in Scotland and N Ireland is associated with people from the Republic of Ireland, a state that fought the British and gained Independence and you start to realise who its suits to ‘other’ the Catholics.
My parents were in the orange lodge (left before I was born) and I grew up as a Church of Scotland, Boys Brigade attending protestant who viewed Catholics with suspicion and was told that the Sash and the Billy Boys were just banter. I was told how to identify a likely catholic by their second name, hair and eye colour. Looking back now I realise I was conditioned by the West of Scotland society to do this. For what it’s worth I also grew up in East Dunbartonshire as a Partick Thistle fan so it wasn’t like I was getting indoctrinated at Ibrox or poverty was an excuse.
I used to think removing Catholic schools was one of the main causes of this behaviour. However having seen that the rest of the world can operate schools of faith without this nonsense I now think the real problems in the West of Scotland is not dealing with the issue as what it is i.e. Anti-Irish Racism.
My only request about schools of faith is that they are not state funded. Religions should play no part in state schools but if parents wish to privately fund and educate their kids at faith school I have no issue with that.
My last point would be is it any wonder that Catholic kids have a negative opinion of Protestants when the most visual display of Protestants is Orange Order walks or the Ibrox faithful signing about being up knees in fenian blood?
I would now proudly say I’m an atheist. If I have a belief its in the ability of the Scottish people to determine their own future no matter their colour, religion or sexual orientation.
Religion stays at home and should be removed from all educational establishments including Parliament.
While we have the OO bands and members marching as military conquerers around our streets, we will have bigotry and the need for catholic schools. Bigotry is taught in the home and while mixed schools would be no problem in most area’s there are area’s where it would not be condoned with the bigots comes hatred and I know from experience that children from bigoted families would be sent to schools to hunt down the catholic children. As a child I had to be bussed to school in W. Lothian as walking would have been to dangerous, happily this state of affairs seems to have gone from this area, long may it last.
I also grew up in London, my first senior school was in a Jewish part, when we had morning assembly the Jews would go for their own service, while we had hymns etc., and then join us in the main hall for the notices. Everything else was all in together, and there were no problems whatsoever. Then we moved to another part of the city where there were a lot of Asian immigrants, and the same thing happened, Hindus, Moslems, Sikhs had their own worship in the morning, then we all learned together. There were one or two prejudice incidents here, but more to do with racism than religion.
When I met OH, a Scot, I was gobsmacked when he told me about the Orange marches in Scotland, I thought that only happened in N Ireland. He went to a Protestant school in his town. I think everyone should be educated together, and while it’s the law that there is a religious service in schools, each can have their own service, but all lessons etc together. It was never a problem, and In fact is a better way to learn about oTher religions.
I experienced first hand some of the IRA trouble in London, and I would not want any sectarianism like that to happen here in Scotland. I think faith schools are a really bad idea.
Singing I’m No a Silly
I’m Just Dim.
How about we get the bigots to register their bigotry?
If they have a heart attack the can wait until a prody paramedic is available,
At Hospital they can wait until a prody nurse is free and from their wait until
A prody Doctor is available who can arrange for them to be admitted to a prody
Ward.
Not sure if it would need to be a prody undertaker?
How ridiculously absurd can these people be?
I went to a Catholic school (preface).
Catholic schooling was born out of anti Catholic sectarianism and a refusal to educate Irish Catholics. And that was very very wrong. It was also however a very long time ago and no longer the case.
I’m very happy to call myself a Catholic but yeah, it’s time to end segregation in schools. Also the orange order has to go. They literally have no redeeming qualities.
Jamie @ 6.47
No one is suggesting banning anything….
It’s integration that’s being suggested, mainly because there’s NO good reason to segregate 5 year olds.
Who, if you’re honest will admit are not Catholic but rather the children of Catholic parents.
Also this is not a GRA type proposal where only the Catholic give up there separate education it’s ALL local authority schools that need to be integrated.
Swap the word Catholic for White and Atheist for Communist then see how your post reads.
@laukat.
You talk a lot of sense. I suppose the issue is chicken and egg on this. I agree state schools should probably be secular these days with optional religious services (a whole host) and RE that teaches about all faiths. The OO really does make me feel unwelcome in the city I was born and raised in. Luckily I can see them as what they are, rather than the embodiment of Protestantism… But others may not have the benefit of my perspective.
Hear, hear Liz g!
Faith schools should be gradually phased out & integrated into a comprehensive & universal system. Look at the top performing systems internationally; how many of them have segregated faith schools to the extent we do?
The vast majority of those on the continent regard the British educational system (whether its penchant for faith based segregation or indeed its obsession with grammar/selective vs. comprehensive) decidedly odd. Vanishingly few people in nordic countries, Netherlands etc would even consider anything but sending their kids to the nearest state school. Faith schools & private schools are very much not the norm.
Very confused people keep saying segregation despite reality. What you are all claiming is illegal. I did not go to a high performing Catholic school but it was mixed faith and their parents including agnostics and atheists chose to send their children to a Catholic school despite there being places free at the local protestant school as both schools were not particularly high up the tables.
This segregation nonsense is false and it would be illegal. I think many of you maybe went to school even longer ago than me and still think segregation exists but I can confirm for the umpteenth time it does not.
I’m going to stop posting though as others are making far better points than me such as laukat another eloquent post that I agree with.
Has the General Election been cancelled?
I should add the one part I disagree with laukat on is the funding of faith schools as this excludes poor people from attending a faith school when non denomination schools are atheist schools by all purposes. Atheism has no right to be forced on people any more than religion that is why a libertarian approach giving people choice is important and respecting everyones rights regardless of their faith atheist or religious. Providing as now, all Faith’s and atheists continue to study together and attend school together like I did it wont be a problem.
I was a Celtic supporter despite being a Presbyterian. I had a strip as a wean and an enamel badge. I still have the badge. My action man had a Celtic strip as well.
Why? My parents were sport agnostics. Olympic and Commonwealth games were watched out of duty and that was about it. We had a babysitter we called Aunty who became a family friend. She is Catholic, a single mother in the late ’60s, imagine. She made me a Celtic supporter and my English parents knew no better.
I’m more of a Killi fan these days having been born there and getting bored of Celtic while Newco fussed around the lower divisions.
Here in Dundee it is pretty much a non issue. A few years ago there was even a serious proposal to merge Dundee and United. The money issue was the main impediment it seems. Polis Dundee asks the SFA to not schedule home games at the same time (the grounds are literally a stone’s throw apart). But more because of having to keep the visiting fans apart fhan worrying about the locals.
I think post Indy the Catholic Church’s bluff should be called. Either they become secular schools along with everything else or all public monies will be removed. Let’s see the Church run all the schools and pay all the teachers. Oh and they will be evicted from publicly funded and owned premises.
I came to that conclusion after that new combined school in the Central Belt south of the Forth was kiboshed by the Bishop insisting at the last minute that the kids should have separate entrances and hey presto! two schools again. Hell mend them.
Andy Ellis @ 7.48
Thank you for sayin Andy.
While I don’t think ( as others have said ) sectarianism is only the fault of this bizarre ” Jim Crow ” school system it is certainly a type of state sanction that fuels the notion of it…
Jamie @ 7.52
I am certainly not confused about the segregation of Scottish school’s.
You said it your self Catholic schools were a “right” you didn’t want removed.
You also pointed out that Catholic schools accept pupils who are not from Catholic parents too… You are correct, they have to, because they are local authority funded,but only IF they have the space….. Which translates into all the Catholic parents having first dibbs..
What you didn’t say ( And seemingly aren’t going to ) is
Why, Why do these children need to be segregated?
For some to walk past a perfectly good school to attend another and the reason being the religion of their parents, is indeed segregation by any definition.
Make it make sense Jamie is all I’m askin!
Explain why any of it is at all necessary?
What’s wrong with integration?
The problem of sectarianism is because of separate secondary schools. There are no secondary Catholic schools north of Dundee and sectarianism is not an issue.
It would seem that the English High Court today ruled that broadcaster need not remain impartial during an election campaign. They merely need to reflect the voting preferences of England in their TV debates.
ITV probably see this as a win but it is in fact a massive defeat for their political coverage, now plainly biased towards one country. Thankfully I rarely what ITV, there programmes are mostly pure shite.
In fact the quality on streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime reveal the lie that UK broadcasting is the best in the world, now I have seen stuff from elsewhere I can confirm it is the normal UK bollocks.
As others have noted, faith schools seem to be possible although when you get crank Billy Bob Schools of Religiosity, as in the US, it is questionable whether they are entirely detriment free. However, the tribalism we have in the West of Scotland is of a different order. It is more akin to Jane Elliott’s blue eyes good experiment.
I’m not convinced the problem is rooted in the schools. The problem is rooted in the hearts of the tribalists on both sides.
Jamie @ 7.59
The churches who want access to the kids education aren’t poor,they can provide the funding!
Oh, Stu. Another problem which can be solved by social engineering and a muscular governmental intervention? Sigh.
Handandshrimp @ 8.23
Thing is though…. The Tribalists on both sides passed through this exact education system.
Nevertheless there’s no good justification for the segregation of children.
We are angry that our children won’t be able to freely mix with other European citizens why on earth do we accept this?
UK democracy:
Unelected head of state.
Unelected Prime Minister
Unelected House of Lords.
Scotland: an “equal” partner in the Union with just 9% of British Empire Parliament MPs.
But Scotland has its own parliament which is democratically elected to represent the sovereign people of Scotland – except:
It can then be overruled by the unelected Lords.
It’s powers can be stripped any time the Union parliament decides to do so. It can be bypassed any time the Union Parliament decides to.
It can be closed down any time the Union parliament decides to do it.
We are a Great British democracy, where the decisions of the people of Scotland are heard but ignored.
Where a political mandate is not a political mandate – if it’s a Scottish political mandate.
Where a referendum decision is a respected “sovereign” Scottish decision when it’s 55% / 45% to remain in one Union but not a respected sovereign decision when it’s 62% /38% to remain in another Union.
The fruits of religious apartheid:
British Empire head of State also head of the Church of England.
26 bishops of the Church of England in the House of Lords making laws for not only England but also for Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland too.
Respect religion, but there’s no place for it in schools.
All schools should be non-denom now we are firmly in the 21st Century.
Drop religious teachings completely and replace them with money management – God knows people need that more than ever……homo homini lupus.
Whilst I don’t like the idea of separating children for essentially made up reasons I can understand why someone might think differently. Would you want your kid to be in a minority group in school potentially facing constant bullying and violence?
I went to a non-denominational school with mostly protestant but a fair number of muslims, hindu, bhuddist and catholic kids too. Personally I didn’t see any bullying but I was a ‘majority kid’ so i wasn’t on the receiving end. Likewise a friend of mine sent his daughter to a local school with an excellent reputation for excellence, so a protestant going to a catholic school. She didn’t have any problems.
I think it’s mostly that first leap of faith. And whilst the area I live in is a fairly even split between protestant and catholic, meaning the orange order holds little sway – everyone has relatives of different religions or married in a ‘mixed marriage’ I can imagine that things wouldn’t go as well in Glasgow, for example. The chidren of indoctrinated orangemen WOULD cause problems and it could take a few generations for this to die down.
Who wants to go first?
Can anyone tell me what this has to do with the forthcoming General Election?
http://erskinemay.parliament.uk
Erskine May’s treatise on the law, privileges, proceedings and usage of (The British Empire) Parliament (25th edition, 2019), online and free to use.
Examples: Claim of Right 1689, it tells you this is about protecting the right of parliamentarians’ freedom of speech. Nothing mentioned about the monarchs / Crown being the servants of the people of Scotland and accountable to them.
And let us never forget, when Scotland’s politicians promise they will protect the Scottish NHS from privatisation etc:
Scotland Act 2016: “Even in the case of devolved matters, the United Kingdom Parliament retains the power to legislate on any matter affecting Scotland…”
Scotland’s people are free to make their own democratic decisions, except when the British Empire decides they’ll make the decisions for us.
Scotland: the British Empire Colony.
Religion and faith are not the same things but both words are used to divide and unite the meanings depending on the motive and desired outcome
Both the Christian faith and the Muslim faith contain varied religions within those faiths
It’s never enough for people to only have a couple of divisions between folk, they always feel the need to create more
Take the military, they deliberately divide their own forces against each other in a tribal contest of which regiment or squadron or naval contingent is better than the other
For whoever holds the power or wants to create power for themselves, inventing a cult is always the way to go and has been since the first man/woman worked it out that worshiping a tree or a big stone wasn’t enough, best to create something you can’t see or touch that makes it rain or makes crops grow or will make your army better than somebody else’s army, or better still will reward you for loyalty in the afterlife, that was a clincher, Kudos to that guy/woman
In NE England we were segregated by religion, though we were brought up atheist, we went to a ‘protestant’ school. The catholic schools were quite nearby, some of the kids used to meet up after school to have fights! Boring.
I always thought it was so stupid. There were kids in the same street who went to different school because they were Catholic. All played fine outside of school! Though there was one quite religious family and the mother gave us all a nice illustrated bible each, she must have thought it was terrible we were not churchy and all that, we didn’t have much so it was a nice gift with pretty pictures, I still have it somewhere. Means nothing to me now either other than having pretty pictures.
Organised religion is a human construct, mostly started to keep people in line, stop them getting uppity, and to take their few pennies for the churches.
It has no place in 2019 in education other than historical.
There are major pressing matters to contend with, like climate change but if the kids are fighting each other, there is little hope to solve that crucial issue! I read that in Italy(!) they just made climate change a compulsory subject!
Gary @ 9.17
I can see that there would be concerns that the kids would bring their own baggage should we attempt to move kids from one established campus to another overnight.
While changing all schools to secular could be done like that we shouldn’t be so quick to disrupt the kids environment or relationships.
What I’m suggesting is to do it from nursery…
The nursery just feeds in to primary one, all the kids would already have been together and move into formal education with their wee friends and, haven’t had and aren’t going to have any segregation in any of their formal education environment.
We cannot and should not attempt to interfere with their home life….But And it’s a Big But…. Very few parent’s don’t want their kids to thrive in the school environment and very few kids don’t want to fit in.
Their faith and belief system would be a private,family, out of school hours activity,and not a thing to do with the education they and every other kid gets.
Scotland has always been more committed to the “comprehensive” ideal in education i.e. a good school in every neighbourhood for all children. That used to be also a Labour ideal until Tony Blair’s reforms promoted faith schools in England.
During the 1960s there was a move to provide all secondary education through state funded comprehensives. Scotland adopted the ideal but England would not give up the Grammar school. In England comprehensives tended to be for poor children in council housing estates. Posher children went to the Grammar.
Scotland is still committed to the comprehensive ideal and the only Catholic schools I know of here (in the North East) are state funded and regulated. We have never experienced the kind of sectarianism of the central belt.
So the result of the survey in Scotland is not very surprising. What is a surprise is that sectarianism is tolerated in the Central belt and that OBFA was voted down in Holyrood.
So much good sense in previous comments. Makes you wonder why on earth segregated schools still exist. Only the most incurable religious bigots can still believe it is right and proper to segregate kids and brainwash them over their formative years. I can understand the actions of some parents who chose a faith school in their area if the state alternative is of low quality, this is a sad comment on the state of education in general, but we still have a lot of the bigot variety who choose entirely on religious grounds.
Just a little background material – according to Wikipedia the numbers of followers of various religions are:
Islam 1,900,000,000
Catholicism 1,500,000,000
Protestantism 900,000,000
Hinduism 1,100,000,000
Buddhism 520,000,000
Other religions 400,000,000
The total of the above is 6,320,000,000. As the world population now exceeds 7,700,000,000 this suggests there are somewhere around 1,400,000,000 of atheists, agnostics and others who do not attach themselves to any specific religion. This makes them the 3rd largest group.
I would ask parents to consider the following:
1. No one religion has anywhere near a majority in world population terms so why should any one group have the arrogance to think that what they believe is right and everybody else is wrong to the extent that what they believe is taught to their children as indisputable fact, both at home and at school. Where are your democratic principles?
2. If you had been born and raised in India, China or the Middle East do you honestly think you would not now be a Buddhist, a Hindu or a follower of Islam and fervently bringing up your kids to be the same?
3. By far the greatest cause of death and destruction in the recorded history of the world is a result of religious disagreement. We are talking hundreds of millions of violent deaths, torture, maimings and the like. It still continues today. Setting aside whether or not an all seeing, all powerful and benevolent god would allow such things to happen if he existed, surely you must accept that separating children in the education system, teaching them non provable religious tenets which result in their believing everyone else is out of step with them is completely wrong and dangerous to society.
The circle of hatred and violence is perpetuated by the operation of faith schools rather than fact schools. Someday a braver (and possibly suicidal) government will ban all faith schools. In addition to academic subjects children should be taught only the benefits of good citizenship and respect for the rights of others. All religious instruction should be banned. And, yes, they should also ban private schooling on the grounds that it gives an unfair advantage, breeds divisions in society and promotes arrogance on the part of a fortunate few.
I do accept that schooling is only part of the problem and that the main issue lies in parents instilling their own beliefs and prejudices in their children but the abolition of faith schools would be an important first step. The landscape is slowly changing. I would not advocate banning churches, mosques and the like but, perhaps in another 500 years, we might reach a point where it is illegal to indoctrinate children with religious beliefs under the current age of consent. After all protecting the mental wellbeing of a child should be every bit as important as protecting their physical wellbeing.
“And tragically for Scotland, it looks like it always will.”
In a glass half full mode… A quick search suggests the last census in 2017 had 58% of Scots identifying as non-religious, compared to a figure of 40% in 1999, so maybe if the trend continues on the same trajectory it won’t mean we always will.
But just wait till Trans Religion 2.0 comes out…
1.5 minute passage from Iain Bank’s The Quarry narrated by John Sessions. Includes a bit of swearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7k5UFZk88E
Rev’s stating on twitter this GE is a bin fire. If it was at least it would warm the place up!
Scotland, a nation so cold that for almost half the year our population puts their food in fridges to keep it warmer than it is outside…
Aye, Let’s just ignore the affect of private fee-paying education on the attainment gap.
Ditto private medicine where your wallet is a passport to jump the queue for health care.
There that’s got that off my chest.
Elmac said:
“perhaps in another 500 years, we might reach a point where it is illegal to indoctrinate children with religious beliefs under the current age of consent.”
I will be long dead and well past caring by then but my best guess is that the Bigbangian Cult will rule the roost by then and indoctrination will be even more rigorously enforced than at any time in human history.
These zealots unquestioningly believe any old tripe that our 21st century state-sponsored stargazing wise men come up with, pretty much as our gullible ancestors once did – and their faith is so blinding they fail to see the irony.
As a unionist I want to see Scotland with a strong voice in Westminster and Midlothian with a strong voice in Scotland, devolution should not stop at Holyrood.
(But Scotland has no voice in Westminster. The Tory government totally ignores any input from Scottish politicians, except their own toadies.)
https://caltonjock.com/2019/11/18/michelle-ballantyne-touted-as-the-next-leader-of-the-tory-party-in-scotland-time-to-have-a-closer-look-at-her-politics-part-1/
Yup.
Even better if you have both Schools facing each other on opposite sides of the road – all the better to peer through the bars and hurl abuse at each other.
However other countries appear to manage without specific deep seated sectarianism. Meh, I dunno how to end it without banning religion (yeah that’ll work)
I was at a School abroad once, where I had a couple of jewish kids in my class. We had compulsory “RE” (cross denominational, but Christian) They were excused class. We thought they were jammy buggers cos we hated it, that’s all we cared about – Religion was boring as f*ck, but if you were Jewish you could get out of it ha!
Little did we know 😀
That’s the point really. Kids know little and care less – it has to be punched into us, so we can punch it into others…
Genuine question. What has religion ever done for us?
@cynicalHighlander at 11:43 pm
Imagery scratched onto cave walls and stone tablets back in the day, appears to archive the content of an early episode of Ready Steady Cook, where a young chef going by the street name of JC rocked up with just a couple of fish and five loaves of bread and yet still managed to feed 5000 folk.
So from that it would appear JC kept portion sizes and calorific intake at a level that would have kerbed the current obesity crisis should others have followed his ways.
But like so many other events in our long history, including those of the character Zog in the chapter The Dancing Fool from Kurt Vonnegut’s Breakfast of Champions, things don’t always work out for the best…
“A flying saucer creature named Zog arrived on Earth to explain how wars could be prevented and how cancer could be cured. He brought the information from Margo, a planet where the natives conversed by means of farts and tap dancing.
Zog landed at night in Connectitut. He had no sooner touched down than he saw a house on fire. He rushed into the house, farting and tap dancing, warning the people about the terrible danger they were in. The head of the house brained Zog with a golf club.“
@Dan
LOL
I wonder what the reaction will be on Friday the 13th to a Tory Government with a massive majority… and the SNP as the MAIN opposition party!
most phds are pointless makework but jennifer jones effort must be up there, or down there, when it comes to the most worthless scholarship ever produced – all so she can constantly refer to herself as DR JONES when trying to browbeat people with stupid arguments
old joke –
“she’s unconscious – IS THERE A DOCTOR ON THE PLANE?”
– IMA DOCTOR …
– help her
– in MEDIA AND GENDER STUDIES
– aww fuck …
(dies)
– hoops on a fat lass, go for stripes and black; tho I see in a later shot she has the kaftan on, a classic “fat person camouflage”
if the rev is bored, for one day only he could trip to the dark side, for a laff
WINGS OVER ALBION
– announce a conversion to british unionism and converse with all those lovely creatures – vague-man, burger-boy, batshit jill, john mcterminal
or
WOKE OVER SCOTLAND
– and do the same with hassan, small, ronny and vonny, the captain, emanuel bronstein shafi
Religion should play no part in eduction anywhere. Schools with a strong religious identity are basically indoctrination factories. Whilst I appreciate you always favour attacking the boys in blue vs the bhoys in green,who of course never utter a sectarian word :-).
The bottom line is that there are very few if any protestant schools in Scotland there are no-shortage of non-denominational schools though. There are plenty of Roman catholic schools of course, often underpopulated and over subsidised per capita
I think you would find that there would be more resistance from the parents of children attending RC schools. Than non-denominational schools to the notion of ending what is a ridiculous practice. Religion in pretty much every western democratic country is on the decline. Other than the good ole USA a bastion of love thy neighbour types.
I used to believe in fairies,till i caught a couple of them
trying to steal my shoes!
Religeon is cobblers!
Elve’s are a different story!
They are deffo SNP.
Dan@12.15
Cheers for that Dan, I read it out to my wife, and had to stop for the tears running down my face.
Nice One.
Oh, I see there was another ‘unprecedented’ intervenshun. Losing its power though as it slips ever further down the headlines.
Some perceptive comments above on an issue with feck all relevance ATM.
I along with many others spent a goodly chunk of my weekend chapping doors in deepest Galloway.
The goal is to return Richard Arkless to his rightful place as MP for Dumfries and Galloway and gie Alister ‘Union’ Jack his jotters.
The bookies say it is too close to call and should we prevail a major blow will be struck for independence in the south-west.
The Tory vote appears soft with some traditional pro-EU Conservative voters saying they will switch not to the LibDems but to the SNP.
Their justification for doing so.is threefold: the SNP’s integrity, its consistency of message and the record of the Scottish Government.
However, on this last point we had some work to do ion the health issue.
Firstly. that it is not a Westminster responsibility; and secondly that the Scottish NHS – despite powers such as immigration of key workers being outwith Scotland’s control and Tory cuts – outperforms its counterparts in England, Wales and Northern Ireland by some margin.
Yet day on day, week on week, BBC Shortbread and its MSM hingers oan continue a vile and base assault on the service, often using the grief of families as a weapon.
So my question is this: where are you Rev? Where is that lacerating analysis of our biased and venal media which seeks to undermine the independence movement at every turn, using every tactic, no matter how despicable?
We need Wings flying again. Theoretical Manifesto commitments for 2021 can wait.
C’mon Stu.
Apply to attend the Scottish Leaders Debate on 10 December:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/send/u32440291?ptrt=https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07tncf7
Not a day goes by without me giving thanks to God that I’m an atheist.
An observation.
Officially, Scottish history began in 1560, the year Catholicism and its ‘superstitious’ practice were outlawed by the Scottish parliament. Everything before that was to be rejected as ‘alien’ if it did not suit the new dispensation. A cultural revolution was initiated which sought to extirpate Catholicism and Catholic culture, a process which led to anglicisation through the promotion of the English protestant bible and increased official use of English in public discourse, all providing impetus to political unionism and the narrative of Britishness.
Scottish protestantism ie Calvinism in the early years needed English support to survive. The sacred myths of unionism have their origin in that paranoid survival instinct.
The arrival in great numbers of Catholics and Protestants from Ireland during the 19th century provided another layer of potential conflict. The modern Celtic/Rangers sectarianism largely feeds off that and you don’t need to attend Mass or Morning Service to join in.
Modern Scotland needs a bug and virus free, fact based version of its national story. Independence must alter the way we see ourselves. Independence day is the beginning of our year zero, the time we press the restart button and be free of the British ‘cancer’.
So Boris Johnson has said that he’ll never debate Nicola Sturgeon, and therefore the voices of the Scottish electorate will never be heard as long as we remain in the union.
People wonder why Scotland is not 100% for independence when the case is so clear.
The answer is that the media ,led by the BBC undermine our self esteem on a daily basis.
It is not paranoia when they really are out to get you.
The good news is noticed on the doorstep.People realise they have overdone the lies and half truths and scares.
I just wish we had a majority SNP government, with the balls to say: “We are abolishing compulsory religious education in schools, and denying established churches their right of entry to schools.”
That way, they avoid the pitfall of being seen to abolish RC schools, and cut the feet from the Holy Wullies and the devout, who seek to control our children. Make it clear, religious education is the duty of parents and the churches, who must fund their beliefs/propaganda themselves.
Education will then be on a non-religious basis, where there are two schools serving the same community – the better school stays open and, we just might solve any perceived teachers’ shortage. Keep the best schools open, close the failing ones.
Then, perhaps two or three hundred years down the line, with a fair wind, we will have ended bigotry and sectarianism in Scotland – although I might be a wee bit optimistic with that time scale.
‘Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn will go head-to-head in the first televised election debate on Tuesday night after the Liberal Democrats and Scottish National party failed in a legal challenge aimed at including their leaders in the Debate…
Michael Gove, Cabinet Office minister, played the role of Mr Corbyn in Mr Johnson’s TV debate rehearsals, which took place over the weekend’
https://www.ft.com/content/63da2f98-0a1d-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67
That’s interesting.Perhaps Mr Gove in his role play could critique his government’s punitive policies and bad choices that deliberately keep poor people trapped in a cycle of poverty.The working poor mostly , the destitute families and the precariat class – how very Victorian.
‘a cruel irony of modern capitalism is that people in poverty are forced to pay more for many essential products and services. This is what is known as the ‘poverty premium’ – the extra cost of being poor. Poverty is a driver of the poverty premium, and the poverty premium is, in itself, a driver of poverty. It is a vicious cycle that locks people into high costs, debt and having to go without. In the context of austerity, the poverty premium is yet another element of the tsunami of low and stagnant wages, insecure employment and increasing living costs’
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/why-its-time-abolish-poverty-
Where is Scotland heading in all of this . The question of how a stable democracy could lose its way is clearly answered when viewed through a lens of Scotland’s right to self determination and enabling its progressive policies away from the toxicity of WM.Despite the best efforts of the British state to keep Scotland excluded from influencing the direction of travel of democracy in Britain as an equal partner Scotland is wide awake and hears this message of democratic exclusion very clearly. Scotland will respond in kind at the ballot box.
‘Where are you heading?” The “you” in this context is Britain. The question is one I hear over and again each time I venture beyond its shores. Much as the convulsions over Brexit have paralysed Westminster politics and poisoned the national discourse, they are cause for confusion and sorrow among friends and allies. How could such a sane, stable democracy so lose its way? I always struggle for an answer’
https://www.ft.com/content/3a48356e-0629-11ea-a984-fbbacad9e7dd
So, now it is official, the paid liars at the BBC are not willing to call the current English Prime Minister a liar (which everybody knows he is), because it would undermine trust in politics.
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1196707505579020291
THIS is why the uk is a mess, and getting worse every day, the media, not holding liars to account. Remember the brexit bus, with the big lie on the side? Remember all the lies told in the brexit referendum by the brexiteer side? Remember all the lies perpetrated by the paid liars at the BBC during the Scottish independence referendum.
All those Westminster ‘correspondents’ we see all the time on the news are in thrall to what Westminster tells them to say. ‘what is the narrative we will run with today’ they all say to each other, after being literally told what to say by a briefing in Downing street, every morning.
That is what is so wrong with the UK. Too, too many so-called ‘journalists’ just riding a compliant gravy train.
If you ever thought it strange why all the main broadcasters had the same line on the main news stories of the day, now you know why.
And then, to top it all, you have idiots in TV companies, arranging so-called ‘debates’ with only two of the fifteen or so political parties standing in the election. No heed paid to the Welsh, Scottish or N.~Irish viewpoint. No heed given to the party with the third highest number of seats at Westminster, the third largest number of members across the UK, the party of government in Scotland for the last ten years, the party with more MSP’s, and councillors in Scotland than any other party, the party with more MSP’s than all the other political parties in Scotland combined.
BBC, ITV, and even Channel 4 news, happy to pretend the SNP are irrelevant in this election. Apparently the SNP are not a ‘main’ party, despite having more members, MP’s and MSP’s than the Libdems. When the likes of channel 4 news says ‘main party’, what they really mean is ENGLISH party.
No, democracy UK style according to the media, is just two parties run from London. This does not happen in other countries. It has NEVER (despite the media lies) happened EVER in the UK before.
This is why the UK is falling apart. This is why Scotland needs independence more than ever, and why I will be voting SNP on 12th December.
In short, the UK is f***ed, and the media and so-called ‘journalists’ are very much to blame. Compulsive liar Johnson would not be prime minister, if the media did its job, brexit would not be happening, ever, in a million years, if the media did its job, and Scotland would have been independent more than forty years ago, if the pretendy ‘scottishy (but England controlled)’ media actually did its job.
It is hard not to despise these so-called ‘journalists’. They really are the wastrels of modern society.
People need faith/hope that someone or something has a plan for a better fairer world,
Religion ?
Politics ?
Justice system ?
Journalism ?
Democracy ?
Monarchy ?
trying to think of anyone/thing
Nicola,Stu,Greta and …..
Do any of you remember the words Dave Allen used to end his tv shows?
Goodnight, thank you and may your god go with you.
Says it all really.
Had to laugh at call kaye referring to Prince Andrews car crash interview. When a caller referred to finances she was immediately cut off.
At least we know why trump is getting another visit to the palace
Famous 15 at 0955am,
Yip. When people say, why on earth do all Scots not realise the truth of London’s wasteful mis-rule of Scotland, that is the reason, the media. THAT is why broadcasting will never be devolved, and the likes of the BBC keep editorial control in London, England.
Most folk don’t pay too much heed to politics. They just see odd things her and there on the news, and many still think the BBC is honest, truthful and unbiased. I used to think that, so it is an easy trap for folk to fall into. I truly thought that those saying the BBC was just propaganda, were conspiracy theorists.
Now I know differently, and the outright blatant and very obvious extreme bias of the BBC during the indyref in 2014, showed many Scots just what the BBC was really for, keeping London rule over Scotland.
If we had a proper media in Scotland, not staffed by a bunch of third grade london-worshipping, suck-up, so-called ‘journalists’, then Scotland would have been independent decades ago.
Scotland has colonial media. Made to look ‘native’, but control firmly in England’s hands.
As you say, however, with each passing day, more and more Scots are starting to realise what an utter bunch of anti-Scotland liars the likes of the BBC really are.
Heart of Galloway at 0845am,
Totally, totally agree.
Where is the analysis, and demolition of the political lies ,we used to have?
Had to be said.
I went to a mixed local primary with about 50/50 Protestant/Catholic of those with any identified faith.
Only when we had to travel to the big town to secondary were were segregated and in my perception (an aetheist so in the Protestant school) it was entirely that the Catholics rejected all others. My Catholic pals wouldn’t associate with me and I was no longer welcome in their homes.
Obviously there was antagonism between the two adjacent schools, shouted insults, sectarian songs, fights and stone throwing. Bit like the opposing benches in the House of Commons I suppose.
I then became aware that, although there was no overt antagonism, our parents were generally wary of close friendship with the ‘other side’.
On leaving school and seeking employment “And which school did you go to?” was essentially asking “Are you a Catholic?”
Surely segregation by religion is no better than segregation by skin colour and thankfully apartheid is now abandoned to everyone’s benefit.
I wouldn’t deny anyone’s right to have a religious faith but that is a personal matter, not part of mainstream education, so should be kept entirely out of the classroom.
@Socrates MacSporran
What you advocate is simply substituting one set of orthodoxies with another.
Human beings need ‘orthodoxies’ and the resulting ’orthopraxes’, whether spiritual, religious, lay or ‘secular’. One cannot believe in nothing and the state should not be involved in what its citizens ought to believe or think. Therein lies dehumanisation and potential rule by the vandals and the ignorant mob.
Unless you claim omniscience in such matters better to leave well alone.
In the end ‘truth’ will out.
Abulhaq: “In the end ‘truth’ will out.”
You wish.
O/t
Jeremy vine is ‘visiting’ glasgow.only been on 3 minutes and I’ve nearly thrown the radio out.Sarah Smith lying through her teeth and Jeremy as patronising as ever. Finally they mentioned the candidates who’ve had to withdraw not to mention the party.
In the 1960’s I went to Inverurie Marketplace school. There was no segregation. Aye there were football gangs, as per usual, but no segregation. Except we catholics were not allowed to go to Religeous Eductation with the protestants and had a separate class held by some priest. There was much discussion of what “catholics” was like and I remember protestant kids coming to “catholics” to see what it was all about.
I went to the mainstream protestant education once, because we were only allowed to go to the catholic group, as learning such protestant dogma was a sin. I was 5 or 6 at the time. I was later sent to a catholic, boy only boarding school, as my parents moved every 3 years, I married not only a non practicing lutheran, but also a foriegner at a registery office.
I realised at about 14 or 15 that all this religious divide is about controlling people. Divide and rule is more political, but religious control is much more sleekit, much more threatening, darker.
In the old feudal system used over much of Europe*, the ruling classes had as many sons as possible. The first son got the title of baron or whatever and was groomed to run the estate. The second was the soldier son whose duty it was to gain more lands for the family in glorious battle, where his life NEVER came under threat, he had people to do the actual fighting while he sat on his horse looking regal.
The 3rd son went into a monastery to become a priest, or if the family was important enough, was given the title of Bishop and ruled over his bishopric like a duke in order, yes, you’ve guessed it, to make gains and do favours for his family and secondly, to control the masses. Pulpit lectures and witch hunts, when needed, were a way of removing your enemies, or anyone who you deemed troublesome, because they knew more about medicine than the church and used “proscribed” methods to heal their patients. Another layer of control.
Miracles and relics of “Saints”, how many bones are there in a body? People back then never knew. All sorts of tools were used to control people. Speaking out against the church got you tortured, or burned at the stake.
Then came the reformation. The ruling classes did not want to be controlled by Rome, which had 3 popes all at the same time at one point. The reformation was brutal. My god is better than your god outwardly, but it was more like different factions, stirred up by the bishops of the ruling families wanted all the power and control for themselves. Relious bigotry was bound to follow. It was basically ordered by the ruling families that saw a threat to their power base.
School is the best place to divide young minds. Fortunately for me, religious bigotry was not so prevelent in the Highlands, but unfortunately, I went to a school where the priests in charge of young boys are only now in the process of being extradited from wherever the church sent them after they were alledgedly caught in the act or suspected of raping, or groping young boys. These men are all in the 80’s or older, so they have a good chance of dying before trial concludes, if they are brought to book at all.
Hardly suprising that people today, who in the main have their own ideas about the pros and cons of religious belief, have seen through this layer of control. don’t in the main follow any religion and follow a more or less religion free existence. Baptism, communion/confirmation (in whatever form), marriage and death are the main religious events that most of us only attend.
Strange that they all celebrate christmas, eh! The festival that keeps the economy turning over nicely thank you. Aye, tv and advertising to toddlers, who are placed in front of the telly to keep them entertained/brainwashed, is the new religion.
Back to the main topic: Bigotry. The knuckle draggers that want to have sex with an octogenarian male or join the old brigade that disbanded after Ireland gained independence are not religious at all. They have been used to further ensure that the elite stay where they are. Scotland had the OBFA, which wasn’t on at all! Deary me no, that would remove a layer of control. Hence along came a useful idiot, far enough removed from real power to get it repealled. I wonder how many ears were whispered into in the long chain of ears till it landed where it did.
Scotland is now the only jewel left in the brutish empire’s crown. The last free meal that those who conrol Westminster have. They will use all the tricks in their arsenal to make sure that there is division, if need be violent, to ensure that the masses are back in their box. under control of the elite that run the brutish empire in their ivory towers!
*For those about to shout at me, yes, the Gàidhealtachd was different under the clan chiefs, a system of Dùthchas and Oighreachd was used. Basically it meant certain people had hereditary rights to rule their clan, but they had a duty of care to their clan members and looked after the widows and wounded in time of need. The people had a duty to follow their chiefs, but that duty had to earned through respect. A clan could hold large territories, so deputies were put in place to make sure everything ran smoothly. Everybody was armed though, so if he was a bastard, he was soon eliminated.
Lol!!
WORST. ARTICLE. EVER.
“It’s the separate schools to blame for the history of religious intolerance! It never happened until then!”
Err… no.
Why should folk of any faith have secularism forced upon them?
Thank Christ I’m a heathen. Divide and Rule even in 2019. The yoons regardless of thier religious hallucinations just dony give a fuck if there is blood in the streets because of religion. 6
Re Ghillie @ 1.23
Nobody on here has suggested that. The issue is the opposite – why should the young have any faith forced on THEM before they are old enough to decide for themselves what they should believe.
O.T.
Anyone else not received their 2019 perk yet? If there processed alphabetically then I might be at the end of the queue.
Since when has our society in Scotland and their resultant schools been the benchmark to base the moral education of our children. Parents get to choose where and how they educate their children, if at least to combat the unrelenting barrage of child abuse that happens through TV, Internet and all media their innocent young eyes and minds are exposed to. When parents cannot be with these innocents all day they will place their trust in such things as an educational facility, where they are actually familiar with the individuals in whom they are placing their trust.
Society in Scotland is very sectarian because of society in Scotland, not because of wholesome education. London has cultured sectarianism throughout its colonies as regularly as Big Ben chimes. They use the very medias targeting our innocents. They use the terrorist organisation known as the Orange Order in Scotland (as pronounced by Jack Ramsay 2001) to daily perpetuate fear on all sides of the sectarian and political divides. It’s only fools who don’t grow out of it.
Grow up and help protect your children.
“- why should the young have any faith forced on THEM before they are old enough to decide for themselves what they should believe.”
Sadly, this level of thinking appears to be not uncommon in the ‘schools are to blame’ debate.
Let’s state what is obvious to most. No child of any age has the capability to responsibly decide almost ANYTHING. Which is why their parents have to do everything for them, including keeping them from harms way. This is not a process of FORCING, as anyone with any sense fully understands.
Since it’s coming up to Christmas, let’s take a look at Santa. Santa Clause is a big part of Christmas for most children and very few parents in Scotland or anywhere else, would dream of not bringing their kids up without telling them about Santa. But now we are told that this is FORCING children to believe what they should be left to decide for themselves when they are old enough.
Next it’ll be that at 5 years of age, children are to be asked which school they would like to go to, the decision is all theirs?
And then, at 5 years of age, children are to be allowed to go shopping in Glasgow on their own, crossing busy roads, getting on and off a bus or train by themselves? All because they cannot be FORCED to do anything by their parents?
Let’s be clear. Education is the primary responsibility of parents. School continues, extends, enhances and organises the education which begins, and is continuous, in the home. No parent will send their child to a school which has a different ethos from that which exists in their family home.
Should I send my child to a Catholic Christian school, from a Catholic Christian home, where they will be taught and shown, love, kindness, tolerance, forgiveness, peace, caring and sharing, togetherness, family, working and learning in cooperation with each other, as well as reading, writing, arithmetic, music and art, as well as Christian faith and worship?
Why wouldn’t I?
Enough said. Work the rest out.
Lads and lassies, your enemy is not stupid. They know 2014 was too close for comfort and the 50MPs which followed the next year. So we see Alex Salmond being targeted. And we see alot of infighting among independence advocates.
I’m Irish and felt pride that the Scottish Irish community didn’t fall for the SNP are closet’tartan torys’, ‘supremacists who will discriminate against us the same as the Presbyterian bigots like Paisley’ line. Wasn’t Murphy hinting at this and Galloway more explicit -‘Irish catholics can’t risk it’.
Didn’t Ashcroft polling show that the Catholic Irish were the strongest demograph for independence 55/60%. Barely half or was it 49% of people born in Scotland voted for independence. 80% of English born voting No. The Celtic Fans website was 90% for freedom. Well seriously lads in an ideal world schools would be integrated and it should be rolled out at some stage post independence and I know Irish descendants have no justification at all to be concerned but people are suceptible to propaganda and if you keep running articles like this then you risk alienating many of the Irish Catholics descendants who unlike your cousins who came to Ireland have not fallen for Westminsters divide and rule poison. Its no accident that the loyalist billyboys were only unleashed when the polls closed that sorrowful day after the ref because Westminister already knew it had lost the Irish constituency.
Also if an independence ref succeeds Westminster will countenance partitioning Scotland. Some more recognition/solidarity here of the crimes committed against Ireland in your name, Scottish MPs supported the partition of Ireland would be helpful in bringing about the necessary reapraisal among the PUL – protestant, unionist loyalist – in the NE 6 counties of Ireland that they should accept the inevitability and justification of Irish reunification where their culture and beliefs will be respected. After all many of Irish descent strongly supported Scottish freedom because inevitably it woukd’ve hastened Irish indpendence.
Also plenty of loylist trolls out there mascarading as Bravehearts. How empty and wasted you’ll soon all be feeling.
I hate sectarianism.
I follow Scottish league 1 football and was shocked by a small group of Airdrie fans.
Being from the east coast it’s foreign to me, and I fail to understand it. Though I have to add that Aberdeen fans have a deep hatred for Rangers, but I think that’s more to do with their union jockery rather than religion, plus a history of violence between the two sets of supporters.