The fragile flowers
A thing we’ve noticed throughout the referendum campaign is just how delicate many of those on the No side are when faced with any sort of unfavourable information. Having perhaps expected a very easy ride, a lot of Unionists (and indeed several journalists) have proven terribly thin-skinned, with a tendency to fly off the handle at comically slight amounts of challenge.
The Secretary of State for Portsmouth, for example, having been introduced into the debate as a “bruiser”, hadn’t been in his post five minutes before he was bawling to STV’s Rona McDougall for protection as the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon hammered him with nothing more than a few facts and arguments.
When placed under even the tiniest modicum of pressure, No-camp figures will panic and start blurting out the most ludicrous claims, like Ian Davidson’s extraordinary, petulant “Newsnat Scotland” outburst at a justifiably offended Isabel Fraser, or Alistair Darling’s mad assertion that North Sea oil was on course to run out in January 2017.
And so it was this week with Tory MSP Murdo Fraser.
On Tuesday, among some more serious poll findings, we reported the results of our asking Scottish football fans their views on the referendum according to which clubs they supported. It was, we made abundantly clear, just a bit of light-hearted fun signifying nothing, as for many of the clubs the sample sizes were absurdly tiny, sometimes just single figures.
In that same spirit the Daily Record picked up the story on Saturday, giving it almost a full page near the front of the paper emphasising the surprise outcome that fans of both Old Firm clubs backed independence but repeating our disclaimers about the poll’s non-scientific nature. Which was all well and good until they asked Murdo Fraser for a quote about it.
Unable to treat even our daft wee football question as a harmless bit of light-hearted amusement, the MSP launched reflexively into a tirade of dire warnings about the awful consequences of independence, seemingly so unhinged at the unexpected backing of Rangers fans for a Yes that he lost all grip on sanity.
Let’s look at those five listed dangers:
—————————————————————————————————–
LOSING THE UK: TRUE(ISH)
Well, that’s sort of the point. Although, y’know, all the bits will still be there.
LOSING THE POUND: FALSE
As has been exhaustively established and isn’t actually disputed by anyone on either side, nobody can take the pound away from Scotland.
LOSING BRITISH PASSPORTS: FALSE
The UK Home Secretary has explicitly stated that Scots, and their children, will retain British citizenship in the event of independence – even if they also elect to take Scottish citizenship – and therefore also their passports.
LOSING THE UNION FLAG: FALSE
We’re not sure how you can “lose” a flag. People can fly any flag they want, even if it’s no longer in use by a state. Go to a football match at a certain stadium in Glasgow and you’ll find thousands of people flying the flag of Ireland even though it’s no longer part of the same country.
But in any event it’s entirely possible that the rUK would decide to keep the Union Flag. It isn’t actually the flag of the 1707 Acts Of Union, but of the Union Of The Crowns 100 years earlier, and the Union Of The Crowns is staying.
(Failing that, the rUK could just say “We’re an island nation, blue now represents the sea”, or simply “We like blue, so there.” There are no laws about which colours nations can have in their flags.)
LOSING THE QUEEN: FALSE
See above. No party with the remotest chance of forming a Scottish Government currently stands on a republican platform. The Queen will remain Queen Of Scots, just as she’s still Queen of Australia and Canada and over a dozen other independent countries.
—————————————————————————————————–
So fully 80% of Murdo Fraser’s claims are unequivocally, uncontestably complete and utter drivel. And all it took to make him slip the bounds of sanity was around 100 football fans saying they’d vote Yes. Perhaps he was already near the edge after seeing conspiracies everywhere at a debate in Bishopbriggs last week, but still.
Imagine if you will, readers, how frail and brittle must someone’s confidence be that it takes so little to drive them into a blind frenzy of transparent lying. We daren’t begin to ponder what’ll happen if and when Yes actually takes the lead in a serious poll.
I seen that comment from Murdo Fraser….That says it all really.
http://eezypeezylemonsqeezy.com/2014/05/25/project-fearsome/
We saw the emotional unravelling and subsequent side lining of Flipper, you’re right Stu they thought this would be a formality and they resort to anger and violence as could be seen with the guy with the gun threatening to shoot people who want independence or that twat on horseback crying save the union.
@eezy
Gonnae just stop daein that, trying to hijack every bloody thread.
Please
🙂
Ah Murdo what are you like!At a yes stall in Falkirk yesterday I think I had one of his clones when I explained about the Queen still being the Queen afterwards he told me “think of the expense man every time she comes to Scotland she would have to have a state visit” As another person in the crowd said as he left Thin Skinned and thick in the head
eezy
Will you be at the Counting House in Glasgow next Friday Night?
Murdo Fraser should know better. No place for sectarianism in an Independent Scotland.
The latest K McK rant alarming. Poor, wee, small-minded Lennon?
The Anti-sectarian football Laws, the fans have united against. Introduced by Cunningham & McAskill (lapsed Catholics?).
Keep sectarianism out of sport and out of government. Scotland is a secular country. The majority are non religious. The churches have rights above the Law ie equal opportunity Laws etc.
The Churches should practice what they preach. The Royals should stay out of politics. Non political.
Glasgow School of Art. No one died.
Sarah Smith goes to BBC in Scotland, mummy Baroness in Lords etc says in the hootsman,
“As for the tone of the indyref debate, Smith is unperturbed. “It’s true and there are elements of this which can get nasty and bitter and negative although there is an element of that in all election campaigns inevitably,” she says. “That we’re talking about reconciliation after a really civilised, democratic process of which everyone will recognise the result and has agreed to work together reasonably whatever the result is not usually how countries end up leaving a union like this. This is a model of how to do it right.” She pauses. “Well, we’ll see.” She laughs heartily. “Well let’s just hope no shots are fired.”
They really hope there is though, as they keep cracking up that ukok crazy.
Very balanced article from Rev Stu pointing out a comment from Tory MSP Murdo Fraser that possibly contained 20% non-drivel.
That’s a record score for Murdo.
Dismayed to discover that there was a better together pamphlet included in the magazine in both yesterday’s Guardian and today’s Observer. It emphasises the fact that it is produced by a coalition of labour, lib dem and conservatives. I wonder if the sudden flurry of activity is an attempt to get in ahead of the European election results, given the blood letting within these parties that may follow (I see some are already calling for Nick Clegg’s head).
It’s not surprising they are ‘touchy’. They began believing a Yes win was out of the question. Now it looks possible, if not probable. To make it personal, most of their political careers are on the line.
The whole framework of the debate puts any No politician at a disadvantage. They and their Union are judged on past performance, which isn’t very good. The past has happened and is documented in fine detail. There is no hiding it.
Conversely Yes offer hope that the future can be better. Also, the Yes side has some past form to be judged on. This referendum aside, most Scots perceive the SNP government as being effective.
Positive message from Yes versus disguising negative past performance from No. This can only lead to short tempers from Nos who are constantly on the defensive.
Had a conversation last week:
Other Person (OP): I like being British I’m voting No.
Me: Well that won’t change. You’ll still be British and even keep your British Passport. You will be able to have a Scottish one too.
OP: Well that’s stupid. 2 passports!
Me: My sister has an Australian passport and a British passport. Lots of people have two.
OP: I don’t want two passports. It’s stupid.
Thus ended the conversation.
I can understand Murdo’s comments.
Its been typical of the NO argument . More Scares and take a pinch of truth and add lots of “we’re gonna lose ” this and that. Its all they have and now we’re winning they are becoming desperate. What we will gain will be worth so much more.
Personally could get over losing the UK.( about three seconds after the YES win) i would feel delighted with that
Losing the pound too . Its not an issue with me. NO pound fine new POUND. No one can stop us.
Passports. Honestly ????? I am a European citizen so whats the fuss
As for the flag ? Well the St Andrews cross does just nicely thank you.
The queen ????? who “really cares”
Worst case scenario – New nation, new pound, new passport, same flag and no queen . Whats not to like?
These are technicalities that will be hammered out by the people who do those things. I have faith in Scots doing the biz for Scotland rather than those buggers in Westmidden
So Mr Frazer now you know how i feel feck off.
YES
Gonnae just stop daein that, trying to hijack every bloody thread.
Please
+1
i wonder if murdo, darling, davidson and the rest of these people trying with all their self interested hearts to hold back scotland by lying and decieving the scottish people, ever, in their quietier moments, realise how history will portray them? if they do realise this it must play on their mind, but not enough to outway their greed for entitlement under a u.k govt.
The better together campaign have no more points to put forward and they continue to use the same old exhausted pish- The pound,the E.U,Border controls , The oil is about to run out and pensions. Every one of these have been blown apart but with nothing new they keep raising the same issues
I received this from a friend.
Actually on topic, so watch and have a laugh. It is quite short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZEmh7q6uzo&feature=youtu.be
BtP
Seeyas at CH2 next Friday Night. All welcome.
Another thing which is not without irony, is that the ‘Jack’ in ‘Union Jack’ originates from the fact it was introduced by the Stuarts and was thus considered Jacobite.
Telling lies is unChristian
The fact is that the Better Together campaign is travelling now on outright lies and I assume the YES campaign has a plan to use this fact. Growing numbers of people are already wakening up to this but once somebody understands he is being lied to he is unlikely to trust anything the liar tells him after that -even if it is the truth.
If we establish two things – we are comfortably self supporting (even without the oil) and that Better Together is telling lies – and more importantly it is telling lies that only stupid people will believe – we win.
All the rest is froth.
Better Together runs on the premise That Scotland exists on UK largesse and is subsidised. All its arguments rely on this unthinking assumption which is never actually stated.
Take that assumption away and you take away all its case.
O/T
I assume you have all sent back your Freepost booklet from Better Together which is included in many of today’s papers. You should of course identify yourself as an independence supporter on it and give compelling reasons why you are. Previous political commitment is included and gives opportunity for imaginative invention if that’s what you enjoy.
200,000 independence replies will cost Better Together or Vote Nobs a very large sum of money
.
Murdo is a dipstick here is a plan he prepared earlier.
@ jon esquierdo
It is pish Jon, and pretty rancid, stale, recycled pish.
If you are lost without water you must never drink your own pish as you will do your kidneys in and then die, quite agonisingly.
I wonder if that is a metaphor for the future of Naw.
fekem.
When a YES vote is announced on the day after the Referendum, there will be so many Unionist balls and balloons popped, that the vibration could register on the Richter scale.
… the rUK could just say “We’re an island nation, …”
Just what UKOKers might say; but they will have to dig a ditch from the Tweed to the Solway Firth first of all!
@Geoff Hujer
Sadly that’s the type of conversation I tend to have with friends and colleagues who are going to vote no.
However, two work colleagues who gave similar dismissive responses to me 6-8 months on various issues to do with independence have now recently told me they are going to vote Yes.
Oddly, they’ve quoted information I provided them with from sites like WoS to support their reasoning for voting Yes but presented it as though they’ve come up with these reasons all of their own accord.
I think that’s worth bearing in mind when discussing the referndum with undecided and no voters.
You’re very rarely going to meet someone with the humility to concede that their strongly held views are wrong even if you categorically prove to them that their views are founded upon information which is incorrect.
The other person you spoke to had probably never heard of dual citizenship before and genuinely didn’t realise this is commonplace. Worst case scenario they bury their head in the sand and vote no anyway. Best case scenario he looks for information on dual citizenship and realises that better together have been lying through their teeth and he switches to Yes.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this other person in a few months time is helpfully explaining to potential no voters that we would have dual citizenship in an independent Scotland and to ignore the scaremongering.
Don’t give up discussing the referendum with no voters and undecided. I’ve persuaded three people (not brilliant I accept) including one who was a staunch no based only on what they were reading the unionist press.
As Margo said we only need to persuade one other person each and it will be a landslide 🙂
I think part of the problem with some unionists, is that they have for years, possibly decades, without ANY checking whatsoever, absolutely believed these silly stories of what independence means, despite not one of them being founded in facts. It therefore has come as something of a shock for some unionists to discover the truth.
Scotland will keep its own currency (Pound Sterling), keep the Queen (Just like Australia, New Zealand, Canda, and I think around 10 other INDEPENDENT countries around the world), keep British passports (if you so desire), and so on.
What independence will get rid of is the wasteful, undemocratic, corrupt, lying Parliament in southern England, called Westminster, which has more unelected peers than MP’s, where Scottish MP’s make up only 9% of the vote, and where Scottish industry, interests, culture and people have been routinely ignored and sneered at for over 300 years.
Scottish independence sounds like a damned good idea.
I asked the question to the panel at the Bishopbriggs Yes/No debate re: The McRone report – I got a reasonable, sensible and truthful reply from John Mason . This is the reply I got from Murdo Fraser ” That document should not have been published “. That was it. So 30 odd years to provide a convincing rebuttle and that was his reply. The only reason I asked the question was to hear his reply to it and wow – what a plonker
How would you feel, how would you react if you feared that your livelihood was seriously at risk?
Anybody against Scottish Independence has at least one personal, egoistic motive for their position.
Those of us who supports it, does so mostly because it will benefit the collectivity.
That’s why naysayers become aggressive when challenged, because it’s perceived as a personal, direct assault to them.
On the opposite hand, we feel dismay and disappointment when those we see as brothers and sisters turn their hearts away from us.
But that’s also why we will win, because the momentous shift to Yes will surf on top of a wave of collective conscience, and trump petty egoisms and penny-pinching squabbles.
IMHO There is no positive material case for the union from a Scottish perspective or material advantage. Hence the BT message has got to be fear, negativity, fear, negativety, fear ad infinitum.
That is why you get “I don’t like that Alexsalminn”, “were to wee”, “were to poor”, “were to stupid”
Then you get HMG/BT lies because there is no factual evidence that Scotland would be the only advance country on the face of the earth that could not manage its own affairs.
FEAR that’s all better together has to offer, and the no voters only have “I don’t like that Alexsalminn”, “were to wee”, “were to poor”, “were to stupid”.
Konrad the wise warrior. 12.31
“Anybody against Scottish Independence has at least one personal, egoistic motive for their position.”
Agreed, and these people will not vote YES. However I believe a lot of these people may not vote at all, as a salve to their conscience. Imagine going through life knowing you voted against the interest of your country.
Just watched some interviews with Ed Miliband from Friday morning, he too looked a bit fragile but in a different sort of way.
The rise of UKIP, and the demise of Labour’s chances of winning the general election, must be the perfect storm for Better Together. Seems to have opened up a new front in the political debate in England. Got to imagine a lot more infighting in the No camp in the coming days and weeks. The timing of the referendum has been impeccable.
Yes they are all cry babies. Haven’t we all noticed the lack of humour, that inability to laugh at themselves or even with those who they set out to convert. If I were wondering which box to put my cross in none of them would be able to with the amount of misery they put about, it would be an impossibly move me to their side.
I mean where is their version of the Wee Ginger Dug, or Munguin’s Republic?
It’s the fact that the UK is the DEFAULT position that makes it harder.
Many people just don’t like change.
That’s why the reverse argument is pretty convincing.
If Scotland was already independent, who on earth would vote to give that up, then hand over our income for Westminster to spend?
So the need for change needs to be very convincing, for some of the more naturally cautious people to make that change.
I would like to see more actual policy pledges, as well as campaigning on the general principle of independence.
There are plenty of people who voted SNP just for the council tax freeze.
Just rebutting scaremongering isn’t going to win it.
What Murdo forgot to say :-
“I’m sure when Rangers fans realise that voting Yes means NO MORE TORY GOVERNMENTS, they will be flooding to the polling stations to vote YES in September”
There is only one place left on this earth that Labour, Conservative and Lib/Dem Party’s will find anyone that loves them, it’s in Better Together Land.
This is now their comfort blanket, where no one can harm them.
But one day they will have to come out of Better Together Land and face the real world. They can’t go on like this, hiding behind BBC Scotland and their other friends in the print media.
Yes my tory unionist neighbour cannot deal with anything vaguely referendum related unless it is coming from the right wing msm, very much a la la la not listening tactic. If anyone mentions the referendum, its either that or she rants on making jibes at A Salmond, with bla bla bla. Last time it was he “should stop giving money to Malawi”. Eh? What has that got to do with Scottish Independence? No cannot discuss it, ears and eyes shut down now thank you!
Still I send no or undecided friends info from all the good sites like wings and others online, hoping it filters through, somehow.
The three very unwise monkeys seems a common affliction of the no camp. See no information, hear nothing at all and speak utter dross and hope it all goes away! Whaaahhh! Worrying and funny at the same time.
Jim Marshall says:
“However I believe a lot of these people may not vote at all, as a salve to their conscience.”
I have a union supporting friend who has declared that he won’t be able to vote anyway, as he will be on holiday at that time.
He has yet to book the holiday.
How many more of them will be doing the same?
I find it sad that Murdo Fraser’s instinct is to try to push Rangers fans’ less appealing buttons- god save the union jack, queen and so on…
O/T Rev, someone calling themselves Claymore 64 defaming you in a comment on the rendition story on the Scotland on Sunday/Scotsman website. Comment times at 09:43hrs
heedtracker
“Sarah Smith goes to BBC in Scotland, mummy Baroness in Lords etc says in the hootsman”,
An Independent Scotland will not recognise the House of Lords.
That would be an interesting debate for Sarah to have. How would she handle such a debate, knowing that mummy would be the centre of the topic. Or how could she remain neutral when she is steeped in the New Labour Project.
She will get slaughtered for showing the slightest bit of unionist bias, and rightly so.
X-Sticks 1.08
Right, we should call this Billy Connolly Syndrome. His pitch was ” I will be in New Zealand so I will have no part in it.” This after a lifetime of hostility to Scottish independence. Easy get out clause.
LIVE at 13:30pm today online KILTR debate from Glasgow, includes pro-YES Scot actor Brian Cox with NO anti-Scot rabid Blair advisor John McTernan.
Its a must watch.
On in 5 minutes!
kiltr.com/referendum/1763480722
I’ve just fill out a Youguv survey that asked the independence question.I would assume there would be results out in the next week or so.
However the Independence question was only asked midway through the survey after a number of question relating to mainly UK politics so not sure what effect it will have on the headline figures.
Chic McGregor
“Another thing which is not without irony, is that the ‘Jack’ in ‘Union Jack’ originates from the fact it was introduced by the Stuarts and was thus considered Jacobite”
Chic, you are a fountain of factual knowledge. Keep them comin.
Murdo Fraser, your comments are so dated, it’s so 1970s sectarianism to try and label every Rangers fan as some kind of Union Loving Bulldog.
I remember talking to an Orangeman in the 1980s, and to my surprise, even after all the damage Thatcher had caused in Scotland, him and his fellow Orangemen were ALL voting Tory.
And to this day I have always distanced myself from Orangemen. I want nothing to do with them.
Murdo Fraser and his likeminded Orangemen are dinosaurs that are not welcome in a modern thinking Scotland.
@ Konrad the wise warrior
12:31pm
I like that post – well put.
Either Murdo is terribly uninformed on constitutional, historical and economic issues or he’s deliberately misleading the public.
One or t’other Mr Fraser. 😉
To Chick: the Union Jack comes from the flag from from the “Jack staff” on the bow of the ship which in the case of UK warships is the Union Flag I.e. The “Union Jack”.
There is no other context that I know of?
On the live debate.
McTernan is as quite as a mouse. He is usually a venomous wee rat when he is back home in his London comfort zone.
Is the guy with the sunglasses the “Taxi Driver”.
So the bastions of British ‘liberalism’, the Guardian and Observer, are down in the BT gutter of lies with the Daily Retard.
Best place for them..
Yeah sunglasses is the “Taxi Driver”.
McTernan is his normal nervous self.
Non stop fidgeting, non stop sipping, on his 2nd bottle already.
The rest of the panel are all laid back and relaxed.
From his past, McTernan very dangerous undemocratic individual to be in any position of power, and he was in power as the chief advisor in Blair’s British Labour government.
I am on Yougov panel but was not contacted about the poll mentioned by Laukat above.
I gave up on the KILTR feed because the speakers and audience questioners were inaudible.
Sounds like the pressure of constant lying, is beginning to tell on the likes of Murdo Fraser.
O/T.
David Coburn, UKIP MEP candidate says,even if I don’t win a Scottish seat,I’m still voting no to Scottish independence. Mr Coburn goes on to say,UKIP is more representative, of Scottish values than the SNP.
KILTR coming through load and clear, here.
@Onwards
It’s the fact that the UK is the DEFAULT position that makes it harder.
Many people just don’t like change.
And that’s were we win again, because the UK is already changing, and will change a lot more.
Just point out to them that if they want things to stay mostly as they are, we need to unclamp everybody from the ballast the rUK is, pulling everybody to a direction nobody likes, including large swaths south of the border.
The SG outline of our future is much more akin to where we are now, while the UK government policies, current and impending legislation will mean massive healthcare, social care and taxation changes that will affect also devolved matters because of the Barnett formula.
So if you don’t like changes, you must vote Yes.
Anent this ‘losing the Queen’ stuff, I have felt it necessary to remind people that the old girl is 88 and won’t live for ever. When Charles ascends the throne he is liable to bring the monarchy to the point of constitutional (and, as recent events have indicated, diplomatic) crisis, because he won’t be able to keep his trap shut about anything.
When that day comes, I’ve a feeling some of our current ‘Queen and Country’ Unionists will find their love for the institution of monarchy has diminished somewhat.
Senior Labour figure pens apologetic letter to UKIP supporters, in the hope they’ll come back to Labour, what a pathetic bunch Labour MP’s and MSP’s really are.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/478076/We-were-wrong-we-are-sorry-Senior-Labour-MP-Sadiq-Khan-pens-open-letter-to-Ukip-voters
The sad loser Murdo Fraser at it again, a bit of fly tipping at the Emirates arena just before the Commonwealth Games, and guess what its all the SNP’s fault, according to SLAB,Lib/Dem’s and the Tories, what a pathetic bunch of no hopers,that lot are.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/478057/The-Scottish-National-Party-stand-accused-of-failing-to-keep-their-litter-promise
@ Craig + Chick
1. No hard evidence of connection between ‘jack’ and Jacobites … ?
2. Unable to determine which came first, ‘jack’ or ‘jackstaff’.
Personally, I believe the jackstaff came first, in order to fly a flag from the forwardmost point of the ship, such flags becoming known as ‘jacks’.
Horseboy
It is a long way to Chengdu.
When there is a Yes vote in September, what will UKIP in Scotland do?
Form a stay behind resistance?
3:)
Bugger Panda
Thanx fae frozen North, Aberdeen.
Turra(Turrif) grows sells Scottish hardy bamboo.
Who would have thought it.
Well I never.
Enjoy
I agree, they are so sensitive I don’t think they are suitable to run the country. OK when they can bully smaller countries, but at all the ‘top tables’ without the comfort of big willy Trident to wave they seem not so sure.
Rev,
When I went to the polling booth last Thursday, I walked in and out of the local Church Hall to the sound of my own feet echoing along the corridors, as usual. It’s like visiting the Marie Celeste every time I go to vote. I doubt there will be any flood of football supporters to the polling booths any time soon.
As for the panic among the ‘No’ folk when asked any pertinent questions, they have no answers. They have no argument for staying in the Union, except things like ‘We’re fine as we are’ or ‘I like what we’ve got and I want to keep it.’ Both comments by members of the public from BBC or STV news bulletins.
I have spoken to a couple of people who have said that they will vote NO just to spoil Salmond’s day. They won’t say why the hate him so much, or why the consequences to them don’t matter, it’s him they wish to upset.
Baffling
The Fail on Sunday is in full anti indy mode again today with a ridiculous article about Alex Salmond recruiting a ‘Secret Facebook Army’, and David Wilkie claiming the Commonwealth games has been ‘hijacked’ by the Scottish Government. Both articles are worthy of nothing but contempt.
We really need to push back really hard at this garbage
They want to make Cameron’s day? Doubly, as he’ll walk the 2015 GE if he’s seen in England as the saviour of the union.
A No vote will make Farage’s day too, of course.
Morag. I asked, they don’t care, they’d prefer to upset Salmond
@Erchie
I have spoken to a couple of people who have said that they will vote NO just to spoil Salmond’s day.
Leaders come and go, the consequences of the referendum will last centuries. Wherever that goes, surprisingly.
People that don’t understand this shouldn’t be trusted with democracy.
On second thoughts, if some Scots really feel like this, do we really want to bother saving them from the impending disaster around the corner?
Please explain to these petty revengeful people that doing things for spite hurts everybody, including them and those who they love.
Rev O/T While on holiday two weeks ago I was amazed when I asked one female No voter why she was voting no . She replied I get home delivery from Asda in Carlisle and they may stop cross border deliveries to my house. I have said it before and I will say it again . How do you educate the uneducated?
@fairiefromtheearth
I’m sick fed up to the back teeth with your repulsive posts offering to murder people.
I would have thought you’d have got the message after your last such post was moderated off. Please stop it.
My current argument when faced with unionist no voters, mostly labour for obvious reasons, is to say to them, why not vote Yes then vote labour/conservative ?
This usually gets a “can you do that” sort of look !
I usually then inform them about labour for independence and wealthy nation, and suggest that these 2 groups could represent the values of the parties they currently support but with a Scottish representation rather than the tired old mobs actually destroying their traditional party values as it stands now.
I finish by stating that if i can steer them towards a collection of non SNP groups that represent opposing political values as i currently believe in then it shows the debate is about what is collectively good for Scotland politically rather than the individuals currently leading the debate.
Not sure if any have changed but im sure most have thought about what i said.
More lies!
As a Rangers supporter who runs a Facebook page, funnily enough called Rangers Supporters for an Independent Scotland, and follows a few others with the same agenda, I can tell you that there is quite a large proportion of our fans who are open-minded enough to see beyond the typical unionist bigotry that so many people assume all Light Blues fans are.
These numbers are growing considerably and I no longer feel afraid that the ‘Rangers vote’ could scupper our dreams of a better Scotland.
We need much more from Wealthy Nation and Business for Scotland
@Dave – to be fair Ivan and Gordon from BfS are out every week up and down the country at local meetings and doing media stuff. These people still have their business to run
A 60 something ex workmate voting NO because he hates AS, NS and sums it up by saying they have a GROSS policy in their house..when either AS or NS come on the TV they hit the mute button to Get Rid Off Salmond, Sturgeon..how fucking sad is that…xxx
You know, when I read of these people who hate Mr Salmond or Nicola, I wonder if this is part of the “too stupid” at work. We are too stupid so when people as clearly clever as Alex and NIcola come along some people hate them because “they have got above themselves”. I have a neighbour like this – a very sad individual – a socialist who would rather be ruled by Tories than have a chance at a more left leaning government. “What shall we do?” to quote another knee-bender!
We are the campaign for independence – we don’t need a centralised control system, BT and VNB do – that is the difference.
Oh btw – still a few seats left on the Bus with Wings, traveling from Brechin to Glasgow via Dundee next Friday (complete with indoor lavvie and sound system) register your interest here – http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/
Your answer should have been.Giving up the UK hoorah,giving up the queen wahay,losing the butchers apron fandabulous….well we can dream one thing at a time!