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Wings Over Scotland

The faithful toady

Posted on July 20, 2019 by

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436 to “The faithful toady”

  1. jimnarlene says:

    Caught gormless Gordon perfectly.

  2. starlaw says:

    Good one Chris.
    Will Gordon ever realize that his time has gone. Scotland has moved on, what exactly is Scotlands place in this Union. I wish he would explain his vision for the future and not his dreams of the past.

  3. Robert Louis says:


    This picture sums up this ‘oh so precious f*cking union’ with England, perfectly.

    Were he serving Scotland, instead of England, the failed Prime Minister Gordon (briton, briton, briton) Broon would be shouting, ‘will nobody save poor Hamish Scotland?’

  4. Willie says:

    Good cartoon. Made me think however of how beligerent John Bull and US Toady has just been exposed in the Gulf as a busted flush with two British tankers impounded by the Iranians.

  5. Artyhetty says:

    Rule Britania all tattered and torn, ill fitting clothes, a monstrosity. Time for it to lie down and die quietly, with dignity.

    The moronic, mono syllabic, out dated backward looking Brown, clipping the wings of our young folk, for self gain. Selfish, destructive bully.

    No thanks Brown, crawl back under your rock, Scotland’s a life affirming, modern, civilised, 21st century country, not some backward religious quackery where you don’t hang your clothes out on a Sunday, or else the devil’ll be knocking on your tiny windows.

    Sling your hook, Scotland owes you nothing, you spiteful old git.

  6. kapelmeister says:

    Who wants to go clubbing with John Bull and Gordon Brown?

  7. Effijy says:

    Klunker Broon’s jaw drops at the end of each sentence
    as it can’t believe the crap that just came spouting out.

    He must be second on the Champaign Socialist rich list
    After his fellow Red Tory Tony Blair.
    I understand he made over £1,000,000 last year but he doesn’t
    Do anything I’d count as a worthwhile job.

    After his episode with pensioner Gillian Duffy we can
    We believe the rumours of him bullying his staff.

    He was in charge of regulating the banks when they participated
    In casino banking and brought on a global recession.

    He was the corruption that sees £50 Billion of PFI contracts that will
    Cost the Tax payer over £300 Billion.

    He is the liar who broadcast an independent Scotland would not
    Have pensions, blood transfusions, or transplant waiting lists.

    He owes a great debt to PM May as only she can offer him competition
    In who was the worst UK Prime Minister ever.

    Crawl under a rock Gordon and enjoy your 30 pieces of silver.
    Scotland is all the worse for knowing you and we don’t need or
    Want to hear if you again.

  8. Rick H Johnston says:

    Aye, Gordon Broon belongs in the past, but he’ll be on our TV screens.
    A useful tool for England’s precious Union. When he was PM he did nothing for Scotland. Failed to congratulate the SNP
    On winning in 2017..

  9. Rick H Johnston says:

    Sorry, that should read 2007 when Alex Salmond became FM.

  10. Golfnut says:

    Brilliant, lots of symbolism in there. Shiny boots with the toes kicked out, the cap not fitting, ragged trousers, buttons popped from his shirt (it’s to clean).
    John bull the bovver boy.

  11. A C Bruce says:

    Bull bloated on Scotland’s resources.

    Past time Scotland was gone.

  12. Giving Goose says:

    Litmus test?
    At Rewind festival at Scone.
    Distinct lack of Butcher’s aprons (×1 so far), lots of Saltires and Rampants.
    There is even a White cockade.
    Gordon Brown would hate it, not his sort, no Home Counties types to kneel down to.

  13. Morgatron says:

    Two ugly grotesque figures caught beautifully Mr C, not only on the outside too. Brown really is a strange man, I honestly think there is something up with him though. Hes is like Dr Frankenstein, and the monster is the union. The mans an insane prick.

  14. Abulhaq says:

    Gordon Brown, chief, summa cum laude of North Britain’s useful idiots.
    Wondering the ‘why’ of the current anglo-saxon spat with Iran. This may enlighten.
    Goes back a long time, that BritAm imperialist meddling.

  15. manandboy says:

    Congratulations, Chris, on yet another brilliant depiction of where we in Scotland are under English Colonial Rule.

    The despicable Gordon Brown, epitomises the white collar criminal class within the British Establishment. Successor to the age of rampant colonial pillage and piracy, with the protection of the Westminster Parliament, Brown is exempt from obeying the Law and is free to do virtually as he likes, as when he was Chancellor and then PM. He is the very antithesis of the law-abiding citizen. But there are many just like him.

  16. Jon Drummond says:

    Hah! You’ve even remembered Broon’s fingernails; bitten down to the quick.
    Bonny lad right enough…

  17. Bob Mack says:

    John Bull has saved many from themselves . Usually at the point of a gun of course. Of course it involves reducing the indigenous population by murdering several hundred thousand to bring civilisation .

    I have never actually sat down and counted how many the UK has slaughtered all around the globe to protect itself,but I would imagine the figures must be in the millions.

    Scots must take some blame for that too I imagine, but the Mother of Parliaments takes most for being heavy handed to the “children of the Empire”. For their own good would be the rallying cry.

    Iran will show them up for the toothless bulldog they have become.

  18. Famous15 says:

    Brown is what I would expect and no better than he should be. He must make sense of his life.

    I remember him leading the Broad Left at Edinburgh University and he was full of himself and in modern times would be called a workplace bully.

    He must validate his place in history though he has little to praise and much to condemn and the people of Scotland have to suffer his roars of angst.

    I say.”Begone vile toady,we have too many of your like in Scotland.We want people to stand up and face life , not bow to an evil empire,long past its use by date.”

    Independence is indeed an opportunity but the alternative is too awful to conremplate.

  19. Robert Louis says:

    An important piece in ‘The National newspaper’ today (and worth buying a copy), referencing the fact that the SNP, at their forthcoming conference, will debate anything but independence.

    But apparently that’s fine, because the agenda was decided by a committee. A lack of leadership is what I’d call it.

    What is now clear, is that no matter what, the SNP are happy to stand by and do nothing, when brexit happens. Mibbes holding a referendum on independence sometime maybe ‘late next year’, will be too little, too late.

  20. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Every time I hear that story about Darth Vader being a welder from Fife, I immediately think of Gordon Brown.

  21. Republicofscotland says:

    Once again Chris you’ve knocked it off well done.

    Meanwhile statistician Margaret Cuthbert, advises Scotland to produce its own economic figures and bypass Westminster, which produces skewed figures on the Scots economy, which as we all know are almost always aimed at belittling our ability to become independent.

    Margaret Cuthbert, points out that NI already caries out its own surveys and reports on its economy outwith Westminster.

    This could a fantastic way to counter pro-unionist think tanks and bodies such as the OBR and the IFS.

  22. Capella says:

    A grim prospect. The brothers Grimm. I recall that Gordon Brown’s favourite band is The Arctic Monkeys. At least, that’s what he told a reporter on the campaign trail. Whatever happened to The Arctic Monkeys?

    Here’s a sample of their wares for reference, Fluorescent Adolescent:

  23. Hamish100 says:

    I see McKenna in the Herald attacking the SNP again. He’s just like Brown with an oversized ego of a labourite but in his case tries to play both sides for his Bank o England Notes.

    If Scotland is in such dire straights after 300 years the natural and obvious thing to do is to dissolve the Union.

  24. Republicofscotland says:

    Evidence that being part of the UK is holding Scotland back, and that initially we’d receive a £5 billion boost in tax revenues through trade.

  25. dakk says:

    Brilliant Chris.

    Glad the technical glitch was rectified to allow publication of your latest masterpiece.

    Problem with the plane on your return flight from Majorca or something was it?

  26. Capella says:

    Magnificent speech by David Hayman from 2014. I never saw this at the time, but it’s well worth circulating now. The Great Dictator and Scottish Independence 5 mins

  27. Calum McKay says:

    When the tories are in a deep hole in Scotland you can always count on Brown to come to their rescue!

    The giants of labour’s past, must be shaking their heads collectively and saying:

    “Scotland get out of this mess, look after your people leave the union that is letting you down, working against you and is undermining confidence of the people!”

    Brown and May are a perfect pair, both lack self awareness, over estimate their own ability by a country mile and have been complete abject failures. Their only legacy is one of bitterness, of which, both actively try to rewrite, again both fail!

  28. wullie says:

    The smell. The smell. Its that putrid stench of rotten unionism.

  29. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    As Chancellor of the Exchequer The Clunking Fist controlled the purse strings to fight an ILLEGAL War of Aggression against Iraq.

    As one of its first acts an iScotland should extradite his arse to Baghdad to answer for his crimes against humanity and the International Rule of Law.

    He should thank The MayBot for ensuring he is the 2nd Worst PM the UK has ever had.

  30. Capella says:

    What is the First Minister doing now? Well here’s a clip of her singing chorus to a Rolling Stones Classic onstage with Val McDermid. Appears to be enjoying herself on what was her birthday. Shock.

  31. HandandShrimp says:

    It may just be me but I find Brown’s interventions increasingly half hearted. It is like he is in despair over both the Tories and Corbyn and considers the 2014 legacy and his role in the “vow” pissed against a wall by imbeciles.

    He may well be right. The Brexiteers may well have snatched Better Together’s victory from their very hands while they were still celebrating. It falls to us to make the best use of the situation as we find it.

  32. Effijy says:

    Stena, the Swedish Company has had their Chinese built ship sized with a foreign cargo and a foreign crew by Iran who captured the ship in a tit for tat operation mimicking Westminster’s
    hijacking of an Iranian ship on behalf of Donald Trump.

    Does Scotland face being dragged into another war to help Crew men from the Far East, the Swedish owners, the English government and or Donald Trump?

    No thank you!

    Both parties return both ships and Donald can look for another oil rich state for Westminster
    To war with.

  33. Clootie says:

    The British Empire employed many of the tactics of the old Roman Empire. One was having “locals” run conquered lands on their behalf. The reward promised was Roman Citizenship. Little has changed in that the DUP, Scottish Labour, LibDems, Tories still seek to please their masters in London in the hope of acceptance.

    The Romans also granted many lands a degree of control to function almost as they had before (a form of self governance) PROVIDING they sent the stipulated financial contribution for the maintenance of Rome. The also had to provide bases and troops for the Empire.

    “I will dress as a Roman, I will speak as a Roman….”

  34. Dr Jim says:

    Gordon (Moses) Brown

    A man who keeps getting richer yet he has no job except a charity that he employs his wife in

    A man who could’nt pick a vote for himself out of a bucket full of votes because nobody would vote for him

    A man who has no political respect from his peers

    A man who completely failed at his job when he had one

    Every time they wheel out this decaying corpse of a human being they’re insulting Scotland and the people in it by expecting us to believe a word that dribbles from this man’s mouth, what’s even more ridiculous is this nut case believes he’s important and the arrogance of that is megalomaniac proportions
    He strides about stages in private venues televised for the viewing audience surrounded by disciples like some American evangelist ready to lay hands on the sick to drive out the demon SNP is if he and only he has the divine power of God flowing through his every move in his holy mission to tell Scotland we’re all stupid, then the ego increases in volume as he delivers his Ten Commandments filled with the holy word that’ll guide our future in the way that God has told him it should be

    His very presence on our TV screens is an affront to our intelligence

  35. Muscleguy says:

    It was just business as usual as the Marines stormed an iranian tanker in Spanish waters off Gibraltar while the Spanish looked on. We were only ‘enforcing the law’. But as in the old Westerns when you have the local cattle baron’s son in the cells you need to fortify the sheriff’s office.

    The RN has not had enough ships for some time now. There aren’t enough ships to patrol and protect home waters. We rely on the Norwegians to protect our oil and gas fields in effect. Something ScotGov proposes to change post Independence. Scotland and its assets will be defended.

    Where were our vaunted American allies? Protecting their own patch and playing chicken with the Revolutionary Guards. So in response to our ‘law enforcement’ the cattle baron has acted to make hostages more than equal.

    Expect the Iranian tanker to be released. We will back down. We have little choice.

    Welcome to the post Imperial world Britain, one where you need friends. We are moving to lose 27 in one fell swoop.

  36. Dr Jim says:

    @Capella 10.15am

    First Minister in *Birthdaygate singing Scandal* they really hate the idea of the FM being a well loved person with many friends

  37. Willie says:

    Yes Muscle Guy, the Iranians have just dumped in the face of the UK.

    They know only too well that the UK is a busted flush. Big on seizing a ship off the coast of Spain but absolutely powerless to stop a times two response in the Strait of Hormuz.

    No doubt the incompetent horde of discontents that are the UK will either seek to play down the issue or seek to say that their humbling on the world stage was all part of a plan.

    But the world knows that the UK has just been humbled for the busted flush that it is.

  38. Effijy says:

    I see a report that Tesco has had 1,000 price increases in just the last 2 weeks?
    The average increase is 11%.
    Gourmet lentils increased by 152%.

    Can’t wait for another 10% plus increase in the coming months all down to
    Brexit and special trade deals with countries thousands of miles away who
    Already have deals with the EU.

    Great fun from Emma Cow in the daily hail.
    Tips to Boris PM-
    Visit Scotland and enforce how he Trumps our First Minister.
    Listen to Ruth? lol
    Give credit to Mundell? Ha ha
    Recognise only 2% of Scots are SNO Members?

    Emma, What about recognising the Scottish Parliament vote delivered
    And independence mandate if we are dragged out of Europe.
    How about your beloved Scottish Tory Party membership not having even
    1% of the Scottish electorate?

  39. Dr Jim says:

    According to Gordon Brown Independence will make us £3.88 per week worse off
    According to UK figures Brexit will make us around £35.00 a week worse off

    Who can I pay my £3.88 to, where and how quick

  40. Legerwood says:

    Robert Louis says:
    20 July, 2019 at 9:25 am
    An important piece in ‘The National newspaper’ today (and worth buying a copy), referencing the fact that the SNP, at their forthcoming conference, will debate anything but independence””

    Is it an important piece or a bit of mischief making?

    The agenda for the conference has not been published yet and won’t be until nearer the time.

    Perhaps better to wait to see the real thing rather than go coursing after a hare set running for reasons unknown but unlikely to be benign.

  41. Ghillie says:

    Oor Hamish looks totally relaxed 🙂

    100% Nae Feart 🙂

  42. starlaw says:

    It is important that for the coming months the SNP keep their powder dry. Plans for the near future cannot be discussed in public even though the whole party are screaming to discuss it, who knows by the time conference comes the agenda may have to change anyway. In the meantime I can happily live without knowing Party plans re-independence I know I will learn in time, its ‘VITAL’ Westminster does not.

  43. IAB says:

    Hamish will get him by the throat – he’s just biding his time

  44. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    starlaw at 11.19

    Correct – but the party has to understand that our opponents are cleverly playing on the impatience of our support.
    Our army will have to be given something to reassure them that our intention has not wavered.

  45. Dr Jim says:

    @starlaw 11:19am

    Absolutely right, no shouting from the rooftops about what you’re going to do, just do it when the time’s right

    The time for the complainers to complain is if the party don’t do it

  46. Calum McKay says:

    Just an after thought, but:

    What would make Brown happy, what does he actually want?

  47. Capella says:

    @ Dr Jim 10.41 – so true – the bitter and twisted comments below are hilarious. Unionists are pathologically angry.

  48. Bill McLean says:

    Bob Mack – read somewhere a few years ago that the Brits had killed around 150 million around the world. Not sure if that included the English empire, which atempted to annexe large parts of France, following Wales and Ireland which were subjugated, then attempts to conquer Scotland, then India, as the East India Company, and so many other places when we were conned into joining in with their depredations as colonial troops you know. I’m sure you know the rest of the story! I think I read it in an article about how India was one of the 2 richest countries on earth when the English (East India Company) arrived – and when the British left in 1947 it was the poorest. Tells it all really – who ever benefitted from English/British occupation – you know the answer to that too!

  49. DerekM says:

    Well that about sums it up great work Chris 🙂

    Why cant that old fool just go away and hide and give us all peace,a rotten MP,a rotten chancellor,a rotten PM,a bigot and a liar.

    Man i would love to find out what dirt they have on that old reprobate.

  50. kapelmeister says:

    When Bastard Boris and his loyal oath-swearing Scottish tory MPs come to dismantle Holyrood will Richard Leonard cause a scandal by not taking to a stage to sing ‘Sympathy For The Devo’?

  51. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Brown’s behaviour, like Blair’s, conforms to that of the blackmail victim.

    There’s no logical reason to believe that he wants to make these ‘interventions’ or that he believes a single word he’s saying. But when you consider the possibility that he’s being instructed when to speak and told what to say (or perhaps more importantly, what not to say) then it makes a lot more sense.

  52. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I believe you are correct @Ian Brotherhood says at 12:10 pm

    Brown’s one of the very few former PMs who never got a Knighthood or seat in the Lords (allegedly due to him and Tony Bliar (no typo) pissing off the Queen by scrapping the Royal Yacht Britannia.

    This is him earning his ermine in defence of ‘The Precious’.

    Providing propaganda pieces for the BritNat Broadcaster and Non-Dom Press Barons to impart to the masses.

  53. Terry callachan says:

    To effijy..your post at 1049…

    Gourmet lentils price increased 152% you say
    Good job I seen that coming , I bought a hundred packs the week before
    That will show them

    Just kidding

    I like lentils though

    I don’t shop at Tesco anymore it’s the red white and blue Union Jack shop everything is English
    I go elsewhere even if it costs more

  54. Robert Kerr says:

    Lest we forget Brown’s secondary education was a force-feeding development experiment. The number of his fellow pupils who suffered psychological damage is not known. The experiment was stopped after suicides. I doubt the documentation survives.

    Also Brown’s aversion to women is not mentioned nor is his relationship with that other “son of the manse” wee Dougie Alexander.

    Hostile comments have referred to his spouse as his “beard” and it is understood that the powers in the labour party encouraged her marriage to Brown for political window dressing.

    I could pity him but no….

  55. Abulhaq says:

    @Robert Louis 9:25
    It is no longer possible to take anything for granted with the current SNP régime.
    Devolution? Happy to help.
    Independence? Of course! Just waiting for the strategic SatNav to reboot….this may take some time.

  56. Ken500 says:

    The Vow. How now Brown. A Tory rampage. Brown, Clegg, Cameron voted out. Tax evaders troughing on public money. They brought it on. The Westminster imbeciles an international disgrace. They are always complaining but they caused it all.

  57. Terry callachan says:

    Lots in the news about SNP not going to discuss Scottish independence at their next conference

    What a lot of nonsense that is

    SNP discuss Scottish independence every day

    Me and other Scottish independence supporters think of Scottish independence every day of every week of every year

    England is trying its best to cut through the support for Scottish independence
    The NATIONAL newspaper we must always remember is owned by the people who own the Herald which is a newspaper that is full of hate for Scotland and Scottish people.
    Newspapers don’t support Scottish independence they are just propaganda sheets that are used by the owners of the newspaper to put forth a message , you cannot even call it news because often it is just someone’s opinion usually the editor and they give an opinion that will be favourable with the board of directors .

    DO NOT rely on any newspaper not even the national , for a truthful report , none of them in UK are to be trusted.

  58. Terry callachan says:

    I will be going to the SNP conference and I’m pretty certain I will be overjoyed by the rallying of support that the SNP receive and give.

    Our resolve is strong
    Scottish independence support is not going away , it’s going to crash through the opposition and it’s going to be the happiest most positive time this country has experienced in our life time .

  59. Ken500 says:

    HS2 now £30Billion over budget. £85Billion. More waste. Funding should have been invested in Scotland and the North. To cut journey times throughout Britain to aid the economy.

  60. Welsh Sion says:

    Poetry corner.

    There was a old man named Brown

    There was a old man named Brown
    Who used to do nothing but frown.
    “God save our Union!”, he’d cry.
    For sure: a whopping great lie.
    Thus spake that deluded old clown.

  61. Abulhaq says:

    Re McKenna piece in the Herald, behind paywall but guessing content, the huge prob in the room is not the SG or the SNP but Unionism.
    300 years of brow beating into subservience has been socially productive.
    Tell a people they’re ‘crap’ for long enough and they’ll come to believe it.
    Narrow their worldview to that of looking up the fundament of the master and you got them where you want them.
    Enablers such as Brown and Davidson are products of such conditioning.
    Smashing the source of the conditioning isn’t enough. There has to be a revolution in national perceptions, attitudes, aims and self-worth, effectively a grass roots cultural renewal.
    Such a spring tide in Scotland would sweep British Unionism into gutter.
    We should not tolerate second best, from politicians or any who aspire to lead.
    It’s quantum physics.

  62. DerekM says:

    If they come to take parliament away then they hand the Scottish people sovereignty which we have lent to parliament, by default and a ruling made in Westminster which declared the Scottish people sovereign it will fall in to our hands ,it will then be up to us the Scottish people to decide by referendum if we succeed our sovereignty to the UK parliament or to install that sovereignty into an independent Scottish parliament with aspirations to remain in the EU and work together with our partners across Europe,do not need a section 30 for that all you need is UN article 1.

    And yea i hate to burst all the scaremongering about them shutting it down it is not going to happen ,they will try to ruin it and stop the SNP from achieving the day job in the hope they can muscle in one of their stooges at the next Scottish election by tarnishing the SNP with the usual stuff ,oh come on do i need to explain that by now its the same stuff never changes goes around and around blah in this ear blah in that ear SNP bad.

    You see we are about to meet an old adversary never forget Boris and Dave are best of chums,they will grant the section 30 and then they will do exactly the same as they did in 2014 and the result will be 45% yes 55% no.

    And they will play the devo max card just to stir the big pot of crap and lies.

    That is what we should be watching out for because it beat us last time and we were in the EU at the time and somehow they got away with it

    Though please continue with the scaremongering about them shutting her down,if it can sparks one of those lethargic brain cells the yoons carry about like a giant bag of wet stones into a rational thought then i am all for it.

  63. Abulhaq says:

    Previous comment.
    It’s NOT quantum physics….

  64. Terry callachan says:

    I see that the britnat commentators on the Tour de France
    have stopped referring to team INEOS as “ the team that was team SKY”

    In years past they would call a win by any rider in the sky team a win for the British team sky if the rider was not british
    But if the rider was English they would call it a win for the English man
    With most the world thinking british is English it’s always a win win for England

    After seven days into the race INEOS had not won anything
    so the britnats stopped referring to them as SKY

    Geraint Thomas who rides for Ineos was second yesterday so he was referred to as welsh
    Not british , because as we all know british means English and is only used to steal some kudos
    If he wins he is british if he doesn’t he is welsh

    Today they compared Geraint Thomas to Andy Murray
    Referring to Geraint Thomas as a winner in waiting
    saying that “WE” had to wait a long time in tennis for Andy Murray
    Inferring that Geraint Thomas will win at some time for Britain

    Today they’ve switched back to Geraint Thomas being british because they think he might win today’s stage and so they can steal a bit of kudos for england by calling him british because most people in the world think british is the same as English

    If an English person wins refer to them as English
    If an English person loses refer to them as British

    If a Scottish or welsh or Irish person wins refer to them as British
    If a Scottish welsh or Irish person loses refer to them as Scottish welsh or Irish

    SKY and INEOS have more riders in their team who are not british than are british but they call them british teams

    If a rider who is not british wins they refer to it as a win for the British team
    If a rider who is not british loses they refer to it as a loss by the named rider from whatever country

    So as you see their comments are reconfigured to mean that

    England never loses only other countries lose
    England gets credit if riders from other countries win because they call the win a british win and most of the world thinks british is just another name for English

  65. Golfnut says:

    @Dr Jim

    More like the anti Christ than Moses. Here’s a thought, the English believe in the divine right of Kings, that sovereignty is God given, so by that logic every Scot is divinely ordained as Sovereign, no wonder they’re worried.

  66. Dr Jim says:

    @Golfnut 1:09pm

    I knew it, I’m holier than thou

  67. Terry callachan says:

    We know about the massive oil field discovered west of Shetland at the time of the Scottish independence referendum 2014 and how Westminster and their allies the BBC and the british newspapers tried to keep it out of the news

    Well now we have a new massive gas field discovered in the same area which is being kept out of the news right now

    TOTAL announced their find

  68. Bill McLean says:

    Don’t know about Geraint Thomas but how come so many of British/English cyclists are on the strongest asthma medication with the approval of the medical team?????

  69. Bill McLean says:

    Read your post on cycling with interest but not surprise – they have been doing this all my adult life and i’m 75 now. A couple of years ago at least one of the “British” top cyclists was on the strongest asthma medications, with the team Sky medical teams approval – puzzled?? Also puzzled as to how a clean catch in the cricket final was not given out and how England were given a 6 when the batsman, as he fell, poked the ball along the ground and over the boundary – not well up on cricket scoring but well acquainted with English glory hunting!

  70. Bill McLean says:

    Apologies to all for double post!

  71. manandboy says:

    England’s strength is all to do with past power and prominence. Hence the reason why nostalgia is such a strong card in the Brexit hand. But alas, the past is well and truly behind England now, and there will be no returning to it. It’s over.

    England has an incurable disease with not much time left. So it is that denial is now centre stage among Brexiters. That and wild promises of a restored Empire, underpinned, as ever, by colonial assets in other countries, mainly Scotland.

    For now, it’s a waiting game till October 31st. In Scotland we might take a leaf from Westminster’s book and relax for the duration.

  72. Capella says:

    OT Brilliant dissection of the video exchange between the pupil expelled from Mearns Academy for stating a scientific fact, then filming his teacher’s attempt to justify his exclusion in the interests of inclusion.
    From the Department of “You Couldn’t Make it Up”:

  73. Petra says:

    Thanks for the cartoon Chris.

    Meanwhile the faithful wee toady is planning to ”launch a unionist think-tank (30th August) with exploration of Scotland’s currency options.”

    Apologies if this has been posted already.

  74. Robert Louis says:

    Dave McEwan Hill at 1131am,

    A good point. Despite my unpopular, somewhat critical posts, I too want to have my confidence re-affirmed. Such things, in the overall scheme, are important.

    One of the major factors, which caused me to have doubts, was the years spent, where NS hardly if ever mentioned independence. I know she was being baited by gobsh*te, lazy do-nothing, davidson, but still, it made me think twice – something I hadn’t ever expected to do, and didn’t with Salmond as FM/leader. The other factor is that folk have been saying repeatedly, since the vote in 2016, that ‘NS has a plan’, but keeping it quiet. Well, you can only run on that kind of thing for so long.

    Perhaps in her speech to conference, NS can and WILL make the commitment crystal clear, without revealing ANY plans?

    I am aware that trolls etc.. are playing on this theme, but they would do that with any aspect of ScotGov/SNP performance. Besides the trolls coming on here are pretty obvious, and exceptionally dumb. Not sure why they bother.

  75. Doug says:

    Brown and his British nationalist ilk hate Scotland. They are disgusting tractors.

  76. Doug says:

    The bbc loves Brown. That says it all.

  77. chicmac says:

    A historical note.

    My cartoon from indyref1 when GB tried but failed to mount a coup over Darling’s leadership of the No campaign by announcing something called ‘Unite’.

    Don’t even think that was the first Broontervention although it was still heralded (sic) as that at the time and indeed for the next few interventions.

  78. galamcennalath says:

    “Will no one save the poor Union?”

    Ridiculous question when so many other questions would be better answered!

    Does Scotland get any benefit from the Union?

    Who does get benefit from the Union?

    What purpose does the Union serve?

    What motivates those you do support the Union?

    Does Scotland suffer in this Union?

    Would Scotland be better off out of this Union?

    Which union offers most, the UK or the EU, if you can only chose one?

    … perhaps most fundament…

    Is Scotland’s relationship with England actually a union a all?

  79. DerekM says:

    Ach poor Nicola damned if she does damned if she doesn’t lots of jumpy yessers spoiling for a fecht.

    Just like to remind everybody unfortunately brexit has not happened yet,damned manifesto could have wrote in if it is really looking like total crap we bail anyway and screw brexit day.

    3 years of gibberish i am now convinced they plan on driving us all insane so we give up lol

  80. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Terry callachan says:

    “The NATIONAL newspaper we must always remember is owned by the people who own the Herald which is a newspaper that is full of hate for Scotland and Scottish people.”

    The wool has been torn from my eyes, I had always wondered how from day one, almost every edition of The National was littered with typos and grammatical errors.

    It is the Unionist vision of Scotland – in newsprint.

    Too small …. Not very many pages to the pound.

    Too stupid … To get the spelling and grammar right.

    Too Poor ….. To hire a proof reader.

    Sleekit bastards them Unionists!

  81. geeo says:

    Check out Robert Louis latest gibberish@2pm :

    “The other factor is that folk have been saying repeatedly, since the vote in 2016, that ‘NS has a plan’, but keeping it quiet. Well, you can only run on that kind of thing for so long”

    Aye, until the RIGHT TIME to USE THE PLAN, you utter donkey.

    Are you seriously saying that, after playing a blinder with a plan, keeping the enemy guessing and on the back foot, that she (NS) should show her cards BEFORE she deploys them in the endgame ? ?

    That is literally the dream scenario for EVERY unionist/Britnat, and INDY HATING 2 bit hack out there.

    Pretty much all we need know about you, Robert Louis.

    But then, we all knew that already.

    Almost as hilariously stupid as Callachan claiming to be an SNP Member.

    As for the desperate attempt at referencing Trolls on here…you are correct, Robert Louis, we don’t know why YOU bother.

    So obvious indeed.

  82. geeo says:

    Oh look, 2 british nationalist trolling splitters trying to attack the ONLY pro indy media in the WHOLE UK.

    Blimp and playground pest, Terry (43 schools) Callachan.

    What an absolute surprise, not.

  83. Abulhaq says:

    A unique and enduring facet of Scottish Unionism is that of Protestant exceptionalism. The religious faith may have faded but the Calvinist intellectual marks remain. Brown’s heritage is suffused with the sub fusc, high minded morality of late Victorian values. Well meaning, that heritage signalled allegiance to the principles of the correct way as decreed by providence.
    Well scrubbed, smelling of carbolic, black Protestant Bible in hand his like would accompany the imperialist on the noble venture of rescuing those unfortunate not to be born British from their woeful ignorance.
    Scots who toy with frivolous notions of independence are on the slippery slope to apostasy.
    Correction is merited. Dominie Broun’s prophetic rebukes from the high pulpit are a warning that outside the Unionist kirk there is no salvation, and he and his friends will make damned sure there isn’t.
    Back in the cage ye children and don’t forget to give thanks you were not born without a soul.

  84. Ken500 says:

    FM is still there. Davidson is awfa quiet. May is gone. Better late than never.

    Brown trying to discuss a currency? After crashing the banking system. Brown was warned many times about overlending. He thought keeping interest rates at 5% abolished boom and bust. London S/E and the Midlands were totally overspending and overlending and borrowing. A property Ponzi scheme.

    A tripartite system to control interest rates. Collapsed. Interest rates and collateral should have been raised. To stop Banks overlending and spending. Everyone else paid the price.

  85. Ken500 says:

    Richard Walker and Calum Baird are not Unionists. The Herald did come out for Independence 2014. National. Many do get fed up with some of the bias but some of it is alright. Better than nothing?

  86. cirsium says:

    @effigy, 10.22

    I don’t think that it is a tit for tat operation. According to the Iranians, the Stena Impero tanker switched off its tracking system in violation of maritime rules and regulations and was making an entry into the Strait of Hormuz through the Southern Pass, disregarding the established procedure that all entries are made through the Northern Pass.

  87. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Constructive criticism, rather than an attack … a custom you appear unable to comprehend.

    I will now walk up to the shop and buy The National (exceptionally good value for money against the Saturday editions of it’s competitors).

    If there are no typos, I will donate a tenner on your name to the Revs next appeal.

    No need for you to reciprocate old boy.

  88. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 1.56
    Just as an FYI that web site you linked to ( UK Colum )
    Is one of they Alex Jones imitations!!!
    And it’s slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan

  89. Republicofscotland says:

    Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations, Mike Russell points out to Liz Truss, that people in glasshouses…well you get the point.

    “The UK deficit went up £7billion in June. As you are the Chief Secretary to the Treasury shouldn’t you be concentrating on that astonishing failure in Tory financial management rather than completely misrepresenting the facts about Scotland.”

    Westminster will do everything in its power to attempt to show Scotland can’t be a viable independent country.

  90. IZZIE says:

    Both Kezia and Ruth are on at the Edinburgh Fringe. i wonder what will come up in conversation?

  91. Clapper57 says:

    Gordon and Sarah Brown’s official twitter tweets the following :

    “People in Scotland deserve much better than endless division and conflict between two extremes. There is a better way forward.”

    However this is , is it not, a direct contradiction to the UKOK Utopian vision of UKOK that Gordon presented and endorsed in 2014 and implored Scots to embrace and view as the best future for them via Better Together.

    What are these “endless division” and “extremes” that he is equating to the UKOK…has his Better Together illusionary UKOK vision imploded ?

    Is Gordon inadvertently conceding that his assertion of Scotland being more secure and financially solvent within a BT UKOK , based BTW on him having no power or influence to implement any future constitutional arrangements or policy decisions , merely a reckless and proven falsehood that neglected the more obvious movement that has always existed within UKOK….that is an England who itself sought to be a free and independent nation ?

    Did Gordon neglect to factor in England ? Or was he intentionally ignoring the real elephant in the room ?

    Indeed Gordon “conveniently” and intentionally did not factor in, within his ‘BritNat’ fantasy land, that England would eventually ask (again) ” Who speaks for us, the English ” ? Gordon , like most Unionist politicians , assumed it was the Scots who had to be appeased and reigned in…which emphatically proves his woeful incompetence and lack of political integrity….though I am sure he knew that throughout the 2014 Indy Ref campaign the English politicians ,via Cameron’s instruction, were told to suppress their own mounting frustration and anger until after the votes were cast….then they would be rewarded for their patience by being given the reigns of UKOK again.

    The Better Together dream is now turning into the nightmare we all knew it was….Gordon is finding it harder to control and manipulate those forces that are resistant to his (lack of) charm…they speak purely from an English perspective and do not recognise Scots such as Gordon’s Utopian UKOK as a persuasive argument to maintain ANY Union other than a new one with the USA.

    As it all spirals out of Gordon’s control…control only being within his mind………Gordon resorts to equating the extremism currently ( though long festered) being embraced , by some English voters and Unionist politicians ,is somehow in parallel with the forward thinking , inclusive and positive vision endorsed by the SNP and independence supporters within the wide (widening) Yes movement. This is so “convenient” for him to make these parallels as he is grasping at the last UKOK straws he has ….to try and , once again, distort reality and replace it with a non existent and unrecognisable vision of a UKOK Utopia aka the ‘Brand British ‘ that is fading away so fast that soon it will become as extinct as Gordon Brown and his warped BritNat politics.

    What is the better way forward that Gordon promotes for us to follow ?

    Is it one in which we, the Scots, must meekly and without question simply submit once again to Gordon’s vision of a fantastical Utopian UKOK, while hoping and praying that those certain Southern others who inhabit this UKOK , and who greatly outnumber us Scots , will see the error of their ways and humbly revert to the status quo, when they already actually control all within the UKOK but that’s not enough for them….they need TOTAL control minus the EU ( even if that results in losing ( their word) the other nations within UKNotOK) while simultaneously not being averse to a little ( but actually huge) USA infiltration within their ‘UKOKnomore’ but as a new country embracing a new Jerusalem national anthem . …a new England.

    Does Gordon really believe the “people of Scotland deserve better” or is he just mouthing the same old same old..does he himself not see the “conflict” that he and his BT colleagues have created or is his and their input on the constitution to be interpreted as a force for good….because they, as Unionists, stand up for this so called BRITAIN ( that only rabid Unionists recognise and revere but is not recognised or revered by English nationalists)..does Gordon think the people of Scotland are unaware and oblivious to what they deserve and does he not consider that perhaps they deserve better than another politically motivated BritNat intervention that is driven purely to generate more “conflict” and “division” courtesy of Gordon and his newly established Unionist Think Tank.

    Brown Groundhog day and Deja Vu no longer resonates with those of us who can see the true purpose behind Gordon’s interventions with BritNat intentions….these interventions are only a means to rally the Unionist troops to suppress those political parties and individuals who support Independence…..while ignoring pre and post 2014 who the real and obvious perpetrators of “division” and “conflict” have always been and who are now publicly currently infesting Gordon’s UKOK fantasy land….those ones who he and his many colleagues in BT “conveniently” always chose to ignore existed in the hope they would not rise up to their now elevated position.

    Scotland has moved on but unfortunately Gordon Brown has not…he is still thinking he can make an Evangelical come back and regurgitate the same old tired rhetoric and confine Scotland, once more, to suffer by using a tired and fake narrative as to the non existent benefits of a defunct Union against a potential brave new world via an independent inclusive country…unfortunately his empty words and promises fool no one ….other than those individuals who have perceived them as a convenient vehicle and distraction to exploit and confound the real fundamental issues within a broken Union soon to be dissolved……are we, Scots, really being expected to believe ANYTHING that comes out of the mouth of this chancer ?…….I think that more Scots have wised up to him now and dinosaurs like him will no longer have any relevance to a Scotland that seems to be waking up and ready to break the chains that bind them.

    Sorry about long post….but helps me sleep at night to know I have said my piece…. cause people like him deserve to be called out….time and time again.

  92. cirsium says:

    @Capella, 1.56 – thanks for the interesting link.

    @Petra, 1.57 – I wonder who is funding Gordon Brown’s Think-Tank?

  93. Republicofscotland says:

    Ken500 says:

    “20 July, 2019 at 12:36 pm
    HS2 now £30Billion over budget. £85Billion. More waste. Funding should have been invested in Scotland and the North. To cut journey times throughout Britain to aid the economy.”

    Indeed Ken500, HS2 chairman Allan Cook has written to the Department for Transport to say the high-speed line cannot be delivered within its £56bn budget.

    The line will connect London, the Midlands and northern England. The first segment of the project between London and Birmingham is due to open at the end of 2026, with the second phase to Leeds and Manchester expected to be completed by 2032-33.

    I wonder how much further over budget it will go?

  94. Breeks says:

    geeo says:
    20 July, 2019 at 2:54 pm

    …Are you seriously saying that, after playing a blinder with a plan, keeping the enemy guessing and on the back foot, that she (NS) should show her cards BEFORE she deploys them in the endgame ? ?

    Barman! A pint of what he’s been drinking please.

  95. Merkin Scot says:

    “I wonder how much further over budget it will go?”
    I would suggest that the budget is limitless as the people who will benefit have a Magic Money Tree called Scotland from which to pluck the spondoolas.

  96. Golfnut says:

    @ cirsium.

    It was a pretty dramatic change of course which would indicate either a failure in systems or they were perhaps responding to a distress call which they would be expected to do under the law of the sea. If the distress call was for the sole purpose of luring the ship into Iranian waters, there will be trouble.

  97. Capella says:

    Liz g 3:23 pm
    Capella @ 1.56
    Just as an FYI that web site you linked to ( UK Colum )
    Is one of they Alex Jones imitations!!!
    And it’s slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan

    Thx Liz g – it’s not a website I’d come across before and the clip from the video did include a suspicious anti communism reference for no apparent reason – always a dodgy sign IMO.

    Nevertheless, the analysis of Murray’s video is worth reading and summarises the problem of denying science in favour of ideology. The pressure to adopt “newspeak” and deny the evidence of one’s own eyes is very Orwellian. That this is done in the name of inclusivity is ironic.

    As a case study it presents the issue in all its stupidity. Murray comes out of it with flying colours. It takes a lot of courage to stick to the truth as you see it in spite of the diktat of the “authority”.

    I don’t know the background of the author, David Scott, but he has done a good job in transcribing the altercation and showing how ridiculous it is to deny biological facts. I’m not aware of any genuine MSM attempt to understand this issue.

  98. frogesque says:

    Why would brown, a dyed in the wool BritNat even be thinking about an Indy Scotland’s currency options?

    I smell a rat, a big Broon rat.

    Anything other than full integration of Sterling in his sleekit vision of Federalism would not and could not work for the four nations of a UJ waving UK.

    The man is peddling snake oil.

    Scotland will decide Her own future thanks, not some ogre from the crypt.

  99. Golfnut says:


    I see English golfers have onion flegs against there names, are they ashamed of their own flag.

  100. geeo says:

    Concern Blimp @3.22pm slavers:

    “Constructive criticism” (of National)

    So, “It is the Unionist vision of Scotland – in newsprint” is constructive criticism is it ?

    Aye, right ye are concern blimp.

  101. Phil says:

    Images of The Broon seen lately show what most are saying: he now looks worn, weary, wretched. Healthy full face is shrivelled. To me he now looks pensive, brooding, disappointed, wasted. Hope his family can get a grip soon and lead him right out of the public maelstrom he has helped create.

  102. geeo says:

    Breeks @3.46pm.

    Are you saying that the SNP/leader has not got a plan for indyref2 ?

    Oh wait, now i remember, you DO NOT WANT them to have a plan, because you want to shout “Told ye so”.

    Who else is desperate for the SNP not to have a plan for indy…..hmm

    Clearly your tipple is Bitter.

  103. North chiel says:

    Amazing what a small ( self confident) Independent nation ( New Zealand) are able to achieve in sporting terms . ( Female net ball team now through to final against Australia).

  104. Terry callachan says:

    Aye on the drink again
    Don’t mix drink and drugs good advice not everyone takes it
    Habits of a lifetime make it hard for some

    To geeo I say get well soon

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    A has-been from the left-wing of the New Right, jumps to his master’s command and tells Scotland to get back in the box. As such, the Broonasaurus exemplifies intellectual rigidity and overconfidence in one’s own abilities. The man is a British nationalist, so is, subsequently, ideologically minded. The problem with his ideology is that is isn’t compatible with the principle of universal human rights.

    The man always was, and always will be, ‘rationally’ deterministic and immune to the true nature of reality.

    Populism and nationalism in a comparative perspective: a scholarly exchange

  106. Terry callachan says:

    Gordon Brown doesn’t even live in Scotland now, why should we listen to what he has to say ,he’s out of date and out of touch and still attached to that socialist dream of international fairness and equality whilst at the same time sucking the life out of Scotland and when he was chancellor csigning the cheques for war in the Middle East there is no social or fair or equal thoughts pass through gordo, s mind he’s an international capitalist

  107. call me dave says:

    Oh No! Shurley schome mishtake on the UJs for England

    Never seen a union jack on the official pga leaderboards (ever)
    It’s the kinda thing I like about the golf.
    Maybe a rogue leaderboard you’ve been looking at…BBC 🙂

    Sorry to see Young Macintyre unsheath his putter from a UJ head cover. 🙁

    Official leaderboard: still live.

  108. geeo says:

    Hey callachan@4.47pm, i heard you like small boys, paedo cunt.

    See, making up slurs is fun.

    If i get banned for that untrue slur, have it known Stuart Campbell done fuck all about a continual smear by Callachan,repeated dozens of times, despite me giving him a detailed reason why it is highly offensive.

    A family member who was an alcoholic and drug taker, killed himself a while back.

    Stu takes no fucking action on a reasoned complaint and ALLOWS Callachan free reign.

    Lets see what happens here.

    Its a free for all or it fucking isn’t.

    Go fuck yourself Callaghan, you rancid fucking cunt.

  109. Artyhetty says:

    Re;Bob Mack@9.21am

    Re the imperialism and murder by Britnats of millions around the globe in days gone by, ( some days not so long ago) and you say, “Scots must take some blame for that too I imagine, but the Mother of Parliaments takes most for being heavy handed to the “children of the Empire”. For their own good would be the rallying cry”.

    There was an article in The National recently, which said that the ‘Scottish government should apologise for their hand in the slave trade’. It got me thinking, why now? Why didn’t the British Nationalists when in government at Holyrood apologise for their and their English masters’ hand in the slave trade?

    For the SNP government to be told to make an apology, sends out a message that it wasn’t all due to the colonial overlords of Britain going around slaughtering peeople to take their land and resources, and people.

    It in fact sends out a message that it was the fault of a ‘Scottish government’ when in fact Scotland had had that removed by, er, the English. Yes a few troughing gits in Scotland enabled it but it was not the will of the Scottish people at all, nor was any involvemnet in the ‘slave trade’.

    Scotland was very much ruled by British colonialists at the time, the few ‘Scots’ who got rich by means cruel, barbaric and foul, were very much part of the English led, English ruled Britnat establishment.

    Really not making any excuses for the terrible crimes against people re the slave trade, but, in fact the ‘British government’ ie, the English government, should equally and more so in fact, make a public apology to the people of Scotland for the highland and lowland clearances which were cruel, barbaric, criminal acts.

    The Britnats forced the people from Africa for self gain, it was very lucrative financially for them, and they forced people OUT of Scotland, for selfish finaancial gain which still to this day, gives them far too land and power over Scotland.

    Just a thought. Does anyone think that the SNP government should apologise? If they did it would be crucial to point out that Scotland was ruled by the Britnats at the time, and not as an independent country going in and slaughtering people or taking slaves to profit Scotland.

  110. Artyhetty says:

    Meant ‘more so’ with regard to Scotland’s government being told to apologise, not that the English gov should apologise more to Scotland than to victims of the slave tradde, just in case anyone reads that wrong way. Scuse typos. Have a good weekend all.

  111. mike cassidy says:

    I see the USA has already started the assimilation of England.

    First they came for their ambassadors

    Then they came for their football writers

  112. call me dave says:


    Westwood calls for an official ruling on his unplayable ball and gets advice from the woman rules person.

    Hmm! Calls man rules person for 2nd opinion and gets advice which leaves him even worse off…. Ha Karma!

    That’ll learn him. 🙂

  113. Breeks says:

    geeo says:
    20 July, 2019 at 5:18 pm
    Hey callachan@4.47pm, i heard you like small boys, paedo cunt.

    See, making up slurs is fun.

    If i get banned for that untrue slur, have it known Stuart Campbell done fuck all about a continual smear by Callachan,repeated dozens of times, despite me giving him a detailed reason why it is highly offensive.

    Can dish it out, but can’t take it. What a surprise.

    Go and have a quiet word with yourself.

  114. CameronB Brodie says:

    The full-English Brexit is a consequence of England’s nostalgia for a by-gone imperial ‘golden age’, when swarthy chaps knew their place. Scotland’s involvement in and experience of Britain’s empire, is different to that of England. It is hard to develop a sense of supremacist entitlement when you are ruled directly from another nation (see the Scottish “cringe”)..

    Nostalgia, xenophobia, anti-neoliberalism: the roots of Leave’s nationalism

    Nationalism is a key element of the Leave campaigns, says Michael Lloyd. But it takes very different forms on the right and left – and indeed in England and Scotland. On the right, nationalism draws on a nostalgic view of the Commonwealth. On the left, it subscribes to an English exceptionalism that believes a federal Europe is incompatible with the struggle against neoliberalism and capitalism.

    Some of the arguments made by the Leave camp appear to be linked to nationalism. Sometimes, as in the case of UKIP, it is a nostalgic nationalism. At other times it is a more xenophobic nationalism. It is important, for those of us who take the view that the future prosperity and geopolitical influence of the UK lies in an active partnership within the EU, to understand the mainsprings of these underlying nationalistic themes.

    However, I would suggest that these nationalisms relate to England rather than to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. This is not to deny the nationalisms within the Celtic nations (with two ‘nationalist’ traditions in Northern Ireland). However, these Celtic nationalisms tend not to be directed at challenging UK membership of the EU….

  115. Abulhaq says:

    Regarding Scots röle in the British empire, if you require a job to be done get a ‘minority’ to do it.
    It’s an old imperial trick. History is littered with such references.
    Kurds in the Ottoman empire, Sikhs, Gurkhas etc in the British empire….Syriac Christians in ‘British’ Iraq….suckers all!

  116. Ahundredthidiot says:

    Nothing to do with me, but friend just told me hes switched to yes.

  117. geeo says:


    When do i “dish out” personal smears and slurs ?

    Calling someone out as a pish gibberer, or behaving like our unionist enemies, is about as harsh as i tend to get.

    But hey, if you think being taunted about a dead relative equates to calling someone a pish gibberer, then that says more about you than me.

    Do you condemn Callachans comments or are you fine with them ?

  118. geeo says:

    Ahundredthidiot says:

    20 July, 2019 at 6:20 pm

    Nothing to do with me, but friend just told me hes switched to yes.

    Great news!

    Best folk to convince others to Yes are those who have changed their own mind to Yes.

    Other No voters are possibly more likely to listen to WHY they changed their minds.

  119. gus1940 says:

    When JFK inaugurated The Apollo Program he said ‘We choose to go to The Moon and do the other things’.

    Does anybody know what ‘The Other Things’ referred to?

  120. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I put today’s National face down on my desk and lo and behold in column two on the back page … two distinctly dodgy “words” – “lefthander” and “twounder”.

    It was admittedly an article about golf, an activity I share the late King James II’s views on.

    If you delve further into the paper you will find a letter from a Sandy Stronach … no doubt you in your ignorance, will dissmiss him as a Troll.

  121. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I’m not as sure that they did go to the moon as I was 50 years ago.

    In retrospect the footage that convinced us all, was more of the quality of Fireball XL5 and Stingray than the more modern Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet … far less high tech stuff like Space 1999.

  122. Ken500 says:

    No universal Suffrage. Elite authority. Slavery in Britain. Empire. Many forms of slavery. Prisoner transfers. Deportation. Highland Clearances. Scotland 1million people. 1707. People in Scotland enslaved. Conscription and taxes raised for Westminster wars. Universal Suffrage 1928.

    Edward 1. Taxes and conscription for foreign Wars
    1707 Treaty of Union. Taxes and conscription for foreign Wars.
    1830-50 European Revolts and Revolution for rights. War and revolution.

    1WW taxes and conscription. British/European Royals. Divine right to rule. Millions died.
    1911 pensions and universal welfare schemes. Voters rights 1914 onwards. Universal Suffrage 1928. Labour Party Fabian Society. SNP formed. People fighting for equality and rights.

    Iraq War. Taxes and unemployment. More people from Scotland (pro rata) in the Forces. Kept
    secret under the Official Secrets Act for 100 years.

  123. Abulhaq says:

    An American placed an American flag on our planet’s Moon. Landing vehicle called Eagle after America’s totemic national bird. By such patriotic symbols… Thank the Lord America got there first, we can all sleep tight.

  124. Fireproofjim says:

    Col. Blimp IV
    As I mentioned on a previous thread, I used to work for an American company that built and installed the heat shields for the Apollo project. There were almost a million people involved to some extent in thousands of companies around the world, including the U.K.
    Can anybody seriously believe that in the course of fifty years hundreds of thousands of people deliberately concealed the truth? What would be the point anyway?
    It’s just nutty conspiracy theories.

  125. Col.Blimp IV says:

    For those of you too young to remember it … this was made several years before the “moon” landings.

  126. CameronB Brodie says:

    Had to be done, sorry. 🙂

    The Spotnicks – High Flyin’ Scotsman

  127. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Col.Blimp IV at 7:21 pm.

    You typed,
    “For those of you too young to remember it … this was made several years before the “moon” landings.

    My memory goes back two series further than you – “Four Feather Falls” and “Space Patrol”, which was shown on Sundays, round about teatime.

  128. sassenach says:

    Now this is exactly what we need, during this ‘quiet’ Scottish political spell – 50 year old conspiracy theories about the moon landings, and Breeks, Geoo, and TerryC laying into each other.!!!

    So, so sad.

  129. call me dave says:

    Yeah! Robbie the robot XL5.

    Overdid the white wine in the bacon and mushroom risotto tonight.

    Lowry could be the 1st Irish person the win’The Open’ in Ireland.
    Excellent 63 today.

    May the Leprechauns guide his balls onto the soft green fairways and all his putts be little ones tomorrow. To be sure! 🙂

    Saw a vehicle number plate today. T16HT B

    Probably a nice generous individual. 🙂

  130. Legerwood says:

    gus1940 says:
    20 July, 2019 at 6:31 pm
    When JFK inaugurated The Apollo Program he said ‘We choose to go to The Moon and do the other things’.
    Does anybody know what ‘The Other Things’ referred to?””

    I should imagine he was referring to the everyday business of Government – medicare – as well as Civil Rights, Peace Corps, Nuclear Disarmament etc. Many of these policies did not come to fruition during his truncated time in office but his successor Lyndon Johnson did get them on the statute books eg medicare in 1966.

    In short the business of Government continued unlike our own dear UK Government in Westminster which has practically ground to a halt because of Brexit which is proving much harder than going to the moon for them.

  131. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi sassenach.

    Certain comments on here, by some, remind me of this Norwegian story.

  132. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    All this space blethers reminded me of this – a cracker of an open-air concert in Houston in 1986. Here’s a quote from the link below:-

    “The last track on the album was originally scheduled to include a saxophone part recorded by astronaut Ron McNair on the Space Shuttle Challenger, which would have made it the first piece of music to be recorded in space, but on 28 January 1986, 73 seconds after lift-off, the shuttle disintegrated and the entire Challenger crew was killed. The track was dedicated to McNair and the other astronauts on board Challenger.[3] On the album the saxophone part is played by saxophonist Pierre Gossez.


    In April 1986, Jarre performed the large-scale outdoor concert Rendez-vous Houston in Houston, Texas, celebrating the 150th anniversary of the founding of Texas. The show attracted a then-world-record live audience of 1.3 million people. The concert was originally to have included a video projection of Ron McNair’s performance, recorded in space. “

    And Rendezvous IV, with JFK, from Rendezvous Houston…

  133. Cactus says:

    Haul Hamish, set yersel free.

    Fucks ake aye.



  134. Cactus says:

    Love Scotland

    That’s all


  135. Cactus says:

    Ah’ve sworn maself tae some other being…

    One is east coast of Scotland

    Already sweared you…


  136. sassenach says:



  137. Cactus says:

    SOooo many people

    This is good

    It is


  138. Cactus says:

    Scotland is braw.

  139. Dr Jim says:

    We’ve entered the age of insanity where some people refuse to accept the meaning of words anymore and instead reinterpret those meanings by psychologically dissecting their own minds in order to imprint upon the users of words their own alternative agenda, and unfortunately not because they always have a different perspective on those meanings or viewpoints

    They do it because they can

    These people should not be confused with the not very bright people who never understood words in the first place, that group is in fact blameless in this respect

    This new set of people are children of the internet age of cowards who see the internet as an opportunity to twist and wreck dialogue within society, they are anarchists and they know it, and they like it and if world governments don’t step in quickly enough to end this, the descent into ungovernable countries is bound to follow, which of course is the main purpose of the anarchist

    Nobody as yet can moniter the internet constantly to block this content out and I doubt any algorithms would detect it either, so what do we do, if we shut down the internet people will scream free speech interference, but I was thinking about that and is writing words on the internet free speech or indeed any kind of speech at all

    I believe that before too long some country apart from China or North Korea and places like that, but a country in the western world will do it because how can any country possibly govern in the way they want to, whether benignly or otherwise with the internet now such a poisonous place the only people who’ll be left on it are the anarchists themselves and then who the hell among the reasonable population will want any part of that

    Have I talked myself into ending the internet now, Jeez!

  140. Grouse Beater says:

    A great likeness, Chris, and a strong image. I hope you’re gathering your portfolio for another festive gift book!

    Your essential weekend reading:

    ‘Looking out for Number One’:
    ‘The Government as banker’:

  141. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I don’t want to get into the whole ‘moonlanding’ rammy, but it’s really dispiriting to see people who regard themselves as critical thinkers (and spend a lot of time trying to convince others to hone similar skills) so fuckin cock-sure of themselves when it comes to subjects they cannot possibly know the truth about one way or the other.

    Have we learned nothing from the behaviour of post-ww2 US?

    Just t’other day Rev retweeted a mind-blowing thread about how Kodak basically blackmailed the US Govt into giving it Top Secret information about nuclear tests because, otherwise, it was going to sue them to kingdom-come for fucking up millions of dollars worth of photographic film. The human beings affected by the same radioactive fallout were NOT given any advance warning of the same tests and the populated areas likely to be affected.
    (You can find the details about half-way down this thread: )

    Anyone want to start a list of the crimes and deceptions organised by the US since 1945? Chomsky has often been quoted, but not nearly often enough:

    If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.

    I’m in a properly bad mood about this now because if there’s anything I dislike more than liars it’s eejits who go along with whatever the orthodoxy happens to be because it’s just too uncomfortable to kick against it, even when they know that they’re deceiving themselves. That they then go on to deride others for asserting what they secretly believe themselves is reprehensible. Being a biddable idiot is one thing, but being an intellectual coward is worse. If this site has taught us nothing else it’s to be profoundly suspicious of everything we see, hear and read via MSM.

    And there endeth the sermon.

    Off now to top top my glass and fashion a fresh tinfoil hat.

    Laters, haters, as Tinto Chiel (late of this parish) was wont to say.


    PS My old man got me out of bed to watch the broadcast despite the protestations of my Mum. I was 6 years old. I had EVERY sew-on Apollo badge it was possible to get. I queued with my sisters for approx three hours in scorching sun to get a five-second glimpse of the module in the old Transport Museum. Anyone here who thinks I can write anything about doubting the story without feeling enraged and miserable can take a fuckin hike. Better yet, wait until the next WOS gathering and say it to ma big auld face.

  142. Cactus says:

    One is sitting on ah seat…

    Ahm back in Crail


  143. Cactus says:

    Endorphinise yerselves free Scotland…

  144. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Check out this animated graphic showing the decline of recent empires.

    Brilliantly done.

  145. Cactus says:

    Aye will go…

    Aye Will go…

    Ye ken the song

    Scots wha he

    Welcomes tae yer glory bed fine William Wallace

  146. Cactus says:

    Hey lurkies…

    Now is your time

    Talk with us

  147. stewartb says:

    Listened in the car today to BBC Radio 4’s Any Questions from somewhere in England – reception in the part of Argyll I was in not good. However, Pete Wishart was on the panel.

    From his content of responses during the programme I formed the strong impression that he views the UK as one country (‘the country”) and one nation (“the nation”)! Just like the terminology BBC news and current affairs output uses every day.

    Anyone else hear this programme – anyone else have a view on Mr Wishart’s use of terminology in his responses? (Am I getting hyper-sensitive?)

    I found it a very disappointing use of terms – another missed opportunity to point out to a wider UK audience the nature of the ‘Union’. If the UK is not a UNION of different kingdoms, countries and nations then how does Mr Wishart define it? How in his mind does dissolving this Union work?

  148. Morgatron says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 10.45

    Totally brilliant , thanks for posting.

  149. Essexexile says:

    Ready fir the big showdown ma man?
    Thirs nae business like YES business.

  150. Hamish100 says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Really good visuals

    So interesting to see the inevitability of the empires dissolving.The USSR was missing!

  151. Footsoldier says:

    O/t possibly but cannot avoid Union Jackery in this case Tesco butter with very prominent UJ and made from British milk. Unfortunately it comes up at the till and printed on the receipt as English butter.

  152. Essexexile says:

    Flip a coin. 50/50. Which side will ye fall?

    Oan a mission for the cause. Playin against the hoose. Ah ken the deck’s loaded but ahm no going withoot a square go.

    Come ahead!

  153. Golfnut says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood.

    Absolutely brilliant.

  154. John MacRae says:

    gus1940 at 6:31 pm said:

    When JFK inaugurated The Apollo Program he said ‘We choose to go to The Moon and do the other things’.

    Does anybody know what ‘The Other Things’ referred to?

    I always heard it as ‘do the other thing.’ Singular.

    i.e. Bring them back again.

  155. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I’m not pretending to know what the truth is but I do know that if there was any deception, it was not with the collusion of hundreds of thousands but by a couple of dozen, hand picked because of their willingness to participate in said alleged deception.

    For the good of their country, right or wrong.

    There was as you may recall a war going on at the time, a war that encompassed the globe and which killed many hundreds of thousands who had no stake in it and who neither new nor understood what it was about.

    They called it “The Cold War”, to give the impression in the west that it was more a game than a war … millions in Asia, Africa and South America were not afforded the luxury of that illusion.

    The “Space Race” was just one of several battlefields, a victory the imperative, the manner of the victory an irrelevance.

    Do you think the Ruskies had developed equipment that could track (from a ball spinning at 1000mph) an object the size of a bus, travelling away from them at 25,000mph up to a distance of 250,000 miles … a sort of prototype VAR so they could shout FOUL?

    From what we know of space flight, it does not take much more fuel to go to the moon than it does to go to the space station(250 miles away) and it is no more difficult to rendezvous with the space station than it is to orbit the moon.

    All the technology associated with space flight has become exponentially more advanced in the intervening 50 years, so much so that the ultra-capitalists are boasting of manned trips to Mars (34-250 million miles away) in the near future.

    And yet since 1972 no maned trips to orbit the Moon have been made, far less to land on it.

    For my money, people who believe in the Moon landings and revere the great Astrophysicists do so on Faith, or because it has never occurred to them question what they have been told … Hilarious that they are so often the first to ridicule people who believe that there is a God.

    Sorry Sassenach … I just couldn’t stop myself.

  156. Col.Blimp IV says:

    just a thought

    1919 … Alcock and Brown fly from Newfoundland to Ireland.

    1969 … Armstrong and Aldrin go wherever it was that they went.

    2019 … We applaud Armstrong and Aldrin for going to the Moon.

    Now that’s progress for you

  157. mike cassidy says:

    Unionist trolling.

    No moonlanding trolling.

    No doubt the morning will reveal flatearth trolling.

  158. Col.Blimp IV says:


    1919 … A handful of devolutionist MP’s in the Liberal and Labour ranks.

    1969 … Winnie Ewing sole SNP MP at Westminster.

    2019 … Polls forecasting a sole Unionist MP sent to Westminster at next election.

    Does that not look more like progress?

  159. mike cassidy says:

    And Alcock And Brown.

    Where’s your evidence they flew across the Atlantic.

    Some faked photos and newsreel.

    And a prize from the Daily Mail given to them by Winston Churchill.

    Clearly a government conspiracy.

  160. Kevin McKenna, you grubby little overweight New Labour Hack, why don’t you fuck right off?
    We are taking our country back. Let Frankie the Fat Pieman know, when you next have a ‘business lunch’ in the Griffin.
    Your precious New Labour is finished. As is Corbyn’s Mao Militant Momentum.
    Mc Kenna, you are part of the problem, or part of the solution.
    Stop writing this Glasgow is shite crap. It is evil your Master’s bidding dross.

  161. Golfnut says:

    I think it is kind of hard to argue that the moon landings were fake when actual soil and rock samples were brought back, some of it was sent to other countries like the UK and I believe the USSR.
    I remember going to see the capsule and samples at the Edingburgh museum, or did I just imagine that.

  162. sassenach says:

    Jack Collatin @ 1-48am

    It’s clearly apparent that McKenna is hoping to ensure his pay packets continue, regardless of any Indy result, ‘one day with us the next agin us’.

    We won’t fall for it, he is just a union toady, as well!

  163. Willie says:

    Just reading about how the hapless Conservatives in a Cobra meeting have authorised an Astute class nuclear submarine to patrol off the coast of Iran, whilst the Americans continue to build up forces in bases in Saudi Arabia.

    Humbled by the recent tit for tat capture of a British tanker in the Straits of Hormuz I’m not quite sure how sending British warships and nuclear submarines to Iran is protecting Britain.

    This looks like the absolute prelude to war war. And a war war of absolute global significance since if a shooting war breaks out the kingdoms of Saudia Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Bahrain will fall along with half of the worlds oil production.

    Quite what the human cost of a conflagration of this scale would be is a huge question. One can only guess at the fatality rates. But aside of fatalities, the tidal wave of refugees from an area on fire would dwarf anything that Europe has seen thus far. And of course the impact on the world economy as oil supplies maybe half is another question again.

    But there you are. With one Iranian oil tanker held by the Brits in Gibraltar a Brit tanker now held by the Iranians, our strong and stable Britnat Conservative Government now say they have a nuke patrolling Iran.

    War war folks. It could be coming our way. Lethal British force will bring back the body bags. And all to protect our shores. And Johnston could be a war time Prime Minister.

    Just what we voted for. Enjoy folks. Enjoy!

    Yes, I recall a recent half wit Conservative

  164. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Two anti-SNP articles in as many days, one in The Herald, the other in The Observer, from Ke4vin McKenna.

    I get the impression somebody within the ruling group in the Glasgow Labour Party (sorry the Glasgow Branch of the British Labour Party) has telt the bold Kevin to come to heel, or he will lose his seat in the posh section of Celtic Park.

    “Write some SNP Baaaddd stuff, or you will be sent back among the common herd Kevin,” was the stark warning, I hear.

  165. gus1940 says:


    Yon are correct – as far as I can remember it was the Apollo 10 Capsule at the Chambers St Museum.

  166. Sinky says:

    Jo Swinson on Brewer’s Politics Show

    A wee reminder that she and Ed Davy voted with the Tories more often than Gove and Hunt did between 2010 and 2015

  167. Hamish100 says:

    Golf nut

    Apollo10, was displayed in the Old Transport Museum in Glasgow (Tramway) as part of a tour around the uk in the early 70’s. I think it is now got a permanent base in London? Massive crowds to view the capsule and the other exhibits.

  168. Abulhaq says:

    What this indicates,
    is that Scots who think within the narrow intellectual and culturally conditioned confines of Britishness will be truly messed up.
    The alternative, the alternative staring them all in the face offers HOPE and EMANCIPATION.
    Essentially we are dealing with perspective. Sometimes it needs a sharp kick start to change that.
    Delivering that is what nationalist thinkers, propagandists and politicians are for.

  169. Robert Louis says:

    The relevant portion of the famous Kennedy ‘go to the moon’ speech, lists the challenges (the other things) they are to undertake as a nation;

    …”Those who came before us made certain that this country rode the first waves of the industrial revolutions, the first waves of modern invention, and the first wave of nuclear power, and this generation does not intend to founder in the backwash of the coming age of space. We mean to be a part of it–we mean to lead it. For the eyes of the world now look into space, to the moon and to the planets beyond, and we have vowed that we shall not see it governed by a hostile flag of conquest, but by a banner of freedom and peace. We have vowed that we shall not see space filled with weapons of mass destruction, but with instruments of knowledge and understanding.

    Yet the vows of this Nation can only be fulfilled if we in this Nation are first, and, therefore, we intend to be first. In short, our leadership in science and in industry, our hopes for peace and security, our obligations to ourselves as well as others, all require us to make this effort, to solve these mysteries, to solve them for the good of all men, and to become the world’s leading space-faring nation.

    We set sail on this new sea because there is new knowledge to be gained, and new rights to be won, and they must be won and used for the progress of all people. For space science, like nuclear science and all technology, has no conscience of its own. Whether it will become a force for good or ill depends on man, and only if the United States occupies a position of pre-eminence can we help decide whether this new ocean will be a sea of peace or a new terrifying theater of war. I do not say the we should or will go unprotected against the hostile misuse of space any more than we go unprotected against the hostile use of land or sea, but I do say that space can be explored and mastered without feeding the fires of war, without repeating the mistakes that man has made in extending his writ around this globe of ours.

    There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation many never come again. But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?

    We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too…”


    I Remember getting taken to, I think the Huntley house museum on the High street, Edinburgh, to see moon rocks, back in the early 70’s. Tiny specks under glass.

    Just a point, however, those were times when the USA was run by an intelligent, thoughtful president. Now the USA is run by a sexist, women-abusing, homophobic, openly racist, fascist, thick-as-mince, illiterate, fascist pr*ck, Il Duce, Trump.

  170. No Fun in being good says:

    Gub Broon. The fat-pocketed Pseudo scrounger hiding in the doorway of Scotland’s Cashline. Rich man begging, like Holy Willie, to add the takings to his wealth.
    He is only interested in his Union affiliates and has no regard for Scotlands future prosperity. Gub was complicit in so many Unionist grabs, not least of all the movement of North Sea Boundaries, the Referendum LIES, et al. Whenever he appears, I immediately think, ‘Plant’. Tradescantia posing as a Thistle. More Phallus Inpudicus.
    The cartoon is excellent and could only be extended by adding the puppet strings to Broon.
    I hope every seagull in Scotland flies over him.

  171. mike cassidy says:

    Apollo 10 in the Glasgow Museum Of Transport.

    What a great picture.

    Not that it went anywhere near the moon, you understand.

    Giant world-wide conspiracy involving millions of people blah blah blah…..

  172. Lenny Hartley says:

    Re moon landings It was a misprint in newspaper report, they sent Armstrong and Company to visit the Polaris Submarine base at the Holy aLoch and Armstrong said “Fly me to Dunoon”
    One interesting factoid (although it might be fake news) is that the Hassleblad camera was basically wrapped in cooking foil to protect the film from Radioactivity,some people claim that this would not protect the film. the recent Kodak story supports that conspiracy theory, ie how did they get clear photo’s when the film would have been fogged.
    So how about this for a semi conspiracy theory that they did land on the moon but the photo’s were faked in a studio ?

  173. frogesque says:

    Swinson doing her Lizzy 1 saviour of England, hammer and rob the Scots all for the preciousness and glory of Britannia.

    Crap of the lowest order with an added stench of hypocritical cant.

    I dislike Tories with a passion but the lying yellowbellies are worse. If they can’t support our democratic rights they can fuck right off.

  174. Abulhaq says:

    The Stena Impero currently impounded by Iran is operated by Stena Bulk XIII Cyprus a subsidiary company registered in Limassol of the Stena Group whose head office is in Göteborg, Sweden.
    The 23 crew are Russian, Indian, Latvian and Filipino.
    It has a Union Jack, flag of convenience, on it.
    British? Something to go to war over?

  175. galamcennalath says:

    The grabbing of the ‘British’ tanker was a copy-cat of the operation by UK forces operating from Gibraltar – abseiling from helicopter.

    Why was it the UK and not Spain or Morocco which boarded the tanker allegedly taking oil to Syria?

    It has to be the U-f’n-K which sticks it’s hand into the fire.

    Engineering a distraction from Brexit?

    And remember, there was no way Thatcher would be elected for a second term until she had her Falklands War. All the jingoism and flag waving got her votes in England.

  176. mike cassidy says:

    Only a Scot.

    Hired by Nasa to work on the maths of orbiting.

    Separate bets on the Russians and Americans to get to the moon first.

    Became known as the Glasgow Ghostbuster for his psychical research.

  177. Legerwood says:

    Robert Louis at 9:39 am

    Thank you for posting the extract from President Kennedy’s speech.

    You are right of course. We no longer have politicians with that level of intelligence or eloquence capable of inspiring people to be better.

  178. galamcennalath says:

    frogesque says:

    I dislike Tories with a passion but the lying yellowbellies are worse.

    Indeed, the Tories are enemies of the common people. Although they do put on a veneer of respectability, their role is to protect the well off. They openly work to reduce the public sector and build up the private. Services are a burden, not a moral obligation. Very dislikeable.

    However the yellow and red varieties pretend to be something they disfinitely aren’t. They speak of being socially responsible and committed to public services. But the evidence just isn’t there when they get the opportunity to take action. All words and no delivery. A big con.

  179. mike cassidy says:

    Galamcennalath 10.09

    Why the UK and not Spain?

    Have a read at this.

    “EU silence over British seizure of Iranian tanker is a telling glimpse of post-Brexit future ”

  180. Republicofscotland says:

    Abulhaq @9.53am.

    If I recall correctly the English flag of St George, is actually the flag of Genoa, which English ships flew to gain protection from the Genoese in order to trade. History more often than not repeats itself.

  181. Famous15 says:

    I cried when President Kennedy died.

    I cried when President Trump was elected.

    I am too angry to cry when the Tories and their fellow travellers,yellow and red, ruin Scotland.

  182. mike cassidy says:

    Legerwood 10.17

    I’m more cynical than I was in the Sixties.

    You could read/hear Kennedy’s speech as nothing more than an eloquent way of saying


  183. Abulhaq says:

    The original flag of convenience.

  184. North chiel says:

    “ Willie @0818” . Yes the “ tried& tested Westminster establishment solution to any “ domestic crisis” . The “ fall back “ solution to “ ensure” National unity ( union flag to the fore) . Of course any “dissidents” daring to “ agitate” for self determination during any “ hostilities “ will be immediately called out as “ unpatriotic “ ( to put it mildly) by the “ war cabinet” and their arsenal of “ state controlled propagandists” .

  185. Capella says:

    I gather the Royal Navy seized the Iranian tanker because our new Minister of defence, John Bolton, told them to.

  186. Republicofscotland says:

    The vile Tory PM Theresa May will receive no glorification from the SNP at her final PMQ’s, and rightly so.

    “THE SNP will defy Westminster convention and not applaud Theresa May when she appears for her last Prime Minister’s Questions this week.”

  187. mike cassidy says:

    Just watched Gordon Brewer slicing and dicing Jo Swinson simply by letting her speak.

    Is she really the best the libdems have?

  188. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Capella at 10:48 am.

    You typed,
    “I gather the Royal Navy seized the Iranian tanker because our new Minister of defence, John Bolton, told them to.”

    Further on that:-

  189. Ken500 says:

    Total taxes raised in the UK. £661Billion. How much borrowing? Scotland £60Billion. More pro rata but the Scottish budget being cut. Little borrowing, Cuts to education, NHS and welfare in the UK. People are dying because of these illegal Tory cuts.

    UK Westminster, Education cut £6Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. NHS cut £4Billion a year (efficiencies?) from 2015 to 2020. Welfare cuts average £3Billion a year for six years from 2015 (£18Billion)

    £85Billion+ wasted on HS2 so far. £Billions wasted on Hinkley Point and Trident. A total waste of money with better cheaper, cleaner alternatives. Two tribal schemes on the Humber and Swansea £20Billion? cost cut.

    HS2 a total waste of money. It will make train journeys throughout Britain take longer. Change trains wait, A complete waste of money and conductivity. With absokuteky no business case, Not enough passenger base. It will always be subsidised with public money. Monies should have been spent on railways in the North and Scotland, Historical lack of investment. Journey times in the North and Scotland take a third long of those in the South. Damaging the economy of conductivity and value. If train journey times were cut in the North abd Scotland. Journey times could rival flight times and be more conducive and comfortable for passengers. More pleasant journeys and convenient transport.

    Scotland also costs more for fuel and energy because it is colder. A tax in the economy, Despite being in 25% surplus and closer to the source. Renewables etc. There is no parity. The energy companies wanted to charge 10% less, cheaper but the Westminster unionist imbeciles would not let them. Scotland could raise £8Billion from fuel and energy selling it. Instead of loading it on the grid. There would be no need for fracked US gas coming in to Grangemouth.

    £661Billion raised in UK taxes. How much borrowing declared? Scotland £60Billion (more pro rata).

    In 2009 taxes raised in the UK. £600Billion, Borrowing £120Billion (after financial crash)

    Total £720Billion.

    Now ten years later taxes raised £661Billion + borrowings?

    Plenty money wasted on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident. £Billions that could have gone on essential services. Keeping people alive, well and happier. Totally necessary and better spent.

    Instead of falsifying migration figures and chucking people out. Including foreign students in the figures who contribute and then leave, in any case. With ties to the economy and economic development. Politicians deliberately trying to mislead the public. Often succeeding. Blaming others for the fallout of their illegal wars and bad judgement. Brown, Clegg and Cameron with many others. They will get voted out.

    A lot less for expenditure and essential services than 10 years ago. No growth poor management and Brexit on the horizon ruining the economic future. It will never happen? The Tories will be out. What next? Another shambles. Westminster unionists the world laughing stock.

    In Scotland Fishing (discards) farming (£160Million CAP taken) and Oil sector (taxed highly when price had fallen ) totally mismanaged by Westminster for years. Losing £Billions of income, Lack of investment by Westminster Treasury sycophants. The Westminster unionist imbeciles haven’t got a clue. Total useless incompetence. The Brexit total shambles.

    The foreign policy is beyond belief run by absolute dunces, The ignorance is astonishing. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. They have no knowledge of historical development, society or structure in the world.

    Westminster unionist imbeciles totally wasting public money and providing poor services. Useless and incompetent not an intellect between them. An absolute disgrace.

  190. ahundredthidiot says:

    Ian Brotherhood at 9:44pm

    Thank You

  191. Capella says:

    @ BDTT – thx for link – i was on my twitter feed that Spain had openly stated that the US told UK to seize the tanker. That’s the pitiful state we are now in, no friends in EU and John Bolton bossing the RN.

  192. Legerwood says:

    galamcennalath says:
    21 July, 2019 at 10:09 am
    The grabbing of the ‘British’ tanker was a copy-cat of the operation by UK forces operating from Gibraltar – abseiling from helicopter.

    Why was it the UK and not Spain or Morocco which boarded the tanker allegedly taking oil to Syria?

    It has to be the U-f’n-K which sticks it’s hand into the fire.””

    Well according to Lindsay Hilsum on CH4 news last week it was the Gibraltarian authorities who seized the tanker. A claim she repeated several times despite someone from an Iranian-American think tank, and every other report anywhere, clearly saying it was the UK.

  193. Breeks says:

    Capella says:
    21 July, 2019 at 11:26 am
    @ BDTT – thx for link – i was on my twitter feed that Spain had openly stated that the US told UK to seize the tanker. That’s the pitiful state we are now in, no friends in EU and John Bolton bossing the RN.

    Blink and you’d miss it, but speculation on Marr that the US offered the UK support, perhaps convoy escort to UK tankers in the gulf, but this was refused by Westminster.
    Begins to look like the UK seizing an Iranian tanker without any infrastructure in place to deal with the inevitable ramifications is either incompetence, … or perhaps the UK is deliberately orchestrating a spat with Iran, presumably timed to coincide with the default No Deal Brexit October.

    Whenever Westminster is in trouble, it can conjure up a war to distract the eye as readily as a stage magician can engineer a puff of smoke.

    It is typically a coin toss with a UK double headed coin… heads, and the chants of the flag waving warmongers will be drowning out the peace brokers, and heads, Westminster can climb down without losing face due to the “extraordinary circumstances”, and being provoked into doing so by a convenient National Emergency. Nothing like a good war to steady the nerves and polarise the narrative.

    How I envy the Irish and their Backstop… and their Nation status. … and their EU membership… and their support from the EU… and their clarity of purpose…

    How I despise the “British” way of spilling blood in far away places to distract from their own inadequacy and incompetence, with Scotland, however sullen, strapped in the passenger seat, perplexed by the buckle on its seatbelt.

  194. galamcennalath says:

    Legerwood says:

    CH4 news last week it was the Gibraltarian authorities who seized the tanker

    mike cassidy’s link above …

    “Josep Borrell …. Spain’s foreign minister he told media that the tanker had been seized following “a request from the United States to the United Kingdom”. He insinuated that the Americans had first offered the intelligence to Spain.”

    The US could have boarded the tanker anywhere in the Med themselves. Two things though. First they wanted to get someone else involved and the UK obliged, suckers. Secondly, they needed some friendly territorial waters to take it too, UK obliged, suckers.

    Another element. The US might want the UK to be seen as closer to it than the EU, which the UK is allegedly leaving. This bodes badly for the UK’s future in international relations – a stooge and fall guy for the US.

    Young Scots lads and lassies will pay the ultimate price. We take take another path, thankfully.

  195. Arthur Thomson says:

    So Hammond steps to the side, leaving a trailing foot for turnip heid Johnson to fall flat on his face. I reckon Johnson is having sweaty, sleepless nights right now. Hammond and his chums are planning how they will sink Johnson and return to power at a later date when the blame for the Brexit shambles has been clearly attached to anyone but them.

    Meanwhile, the cost of HS2 escalates to numbers that dwarf the money owed to those poor people in the EU. One can only feel sorry for the 27 EU states that they would be completely impoverished if they were to lose a sum of money that the Brits can afford to lash out on a vanity project.

    You couldn’t make it up. It would be very entertaining if I could ignore the true cost of all this to the poor and the vulnerable but I can’t.

  196. Scozzie says:

    On the moon landing – 2 blokes planting a flag was third bloke taking the footage? If so was it wise to leave the capsule unattended? What if the doors locked ?

  197. Is it too late to join the Lib Dems?
    Just watched Swinson on Brewer’s (Last?) Droop.
    I’d vote for her.
    She comes across as an empty headed windbag.
    Just the leader Willie Rennie’s Party of Beige Tories crave.
    No Marr Neil or Brewer for the thick end of two months?
    Oh, happy day!
    They’ll probably be pottering about on their villas, gites, or Breton houses on the Continent and applying for dual citizenship; because they’ve got money, and Brexit matters not one jot to the wealthy.

    Vote Vote Vote for Jo!
    It will hasten the party’s long and tortuous death in Scotland if this woman, who has the most ridiculous accent in public speaking ascends the Lib Dems Fence.

    How could Bearsden and Milngavie vote for this obviously insincere vacuous chancer?
    I say this as ‘fair comment’. There is Case Law now, in case somebody has heard.

  198. Legerwood says:

    galamcennalath at 12:13 pm.

    I know that, you know that, every man and his dog know that which is why when Lindsey Hilsum said it was Gibraltar that it stuck out like a sore thumb.

    She had also said it in an earlier piece in the programme when news was breaking of the banker’s capture.

    Trying to re-write the story or what?

  199. Hamish100 says:


    Re Apollo 11. Cameras took photographs once they had been set up and worked on auto. Door to Lem left open as it had been depressurised. . No wind to blow door shut! As for flag waving in the wind , small spring fitted so once shook it kept going for a while as low resistance and kept the shape.
    No stars in photographs. Look outside in daylight you can’t see any here either! Also camera settings did not help.

  200. kapelmeister says:

    Jo Swansong arrives at leadership status to help Johnson, Corbyn, Farage, Brown, Rees-Mogg and Raab finish off the union.

  201. galamcennalath says:

    SNP MPs plan to stay silent while The HoC gives TMay applause at her last appearance.

    Quite right too. She has never been our Prime Minister. She has been openly hostile to this country.

  202. call me dave says:


    Too many went to see that film Capricorn 1 🙂

  203. kapelmeister says:


    Ironic that those same SNP MPs were once reprimanded by Bercow and castigated by tories for applauding in the commons chamber in 2015.

  204. geeo says:

    So, another gulf war and half the worlds oil production at risk of not getting onto the world markets.


    An indyref campaign with oil at over £200$/barrel,
    Woohoo 🙂

  205. geeo says:

    My 1.38pm post is firmly tongue in cheek, FAO site nutters.

    A gulf war would be a horrendous human catastrophe.

  206. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Jack collatin @ 12.24 asks:

    “How could Bearsden and Milngavie vote for Jo Swinson?”

    Well, they’ve been badly let down by the Scottish Toerags, they could not possibly vote Labour, being mostly dour, Scottish Presbyterians, many educated at Glasgow’s finest and most-expensive seats of learning, or, if RC, by the Jesuits, well, obviously voting for an openly-gay man like Jon Nicolson is difficult for them, so, all they are left with is Swinson.

    She seems, a nice, well-ordered middle-class girl. Let’s face it the B&M electorate might have money, but, they’re not the brightest.

  207. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic.VIDEO.
    Earlier this week Alex Salmond spoke to Martin Hanna,political journalist at The National newspaper on matters relating to Brexit,Johnson,the Tories in Scotland and independence:

    Begins at 19:30 on RT:

  208. Proud Cybernat says:

    Coming soon(ish)….

    NS: S30 please Bojo.

    BJ: Can you not at least let me get my feet under the table first, Nicola?

    NS: Fine. We’re having IndyRef2 without it. See ya!

    BJ: But – but –

    NS: Your Maj – YES have won the IndyRef by a landslide & the Independence Act of Scottish Parliament has just been passed and requires your signature. Here’s a pen – sign on the dotted line there.

    BJ: WTF?

    You heard it here first!

  209. Colin Alexander says:

    Theresa May should be applauded.

    Over the last three years, she has done so much to highlight Scotland’s status as a colony of the British Empire, so promoting support for Scottish independence.

  210. Col.Blimp IV says:


    A couple of random comments about a subject that has little bearing on our lives beyond being another brick in the wall of US imperialism.

    …and we get something almost approaching actual debate on this site.

    Constructive trolling or what eh?

    PS. We often see Unionist politicians punch the air in a display of unbridled joy when the oil price falls but in Nicola’s Carbon-Free Scotland it is considered unseemly to crack more than a subdued smile when it rises.

  211. Colin Alexander says:

    The official guidance says it is the role of the courts to decide where there is uncertainty about the necessity of an S30 Order; ( such as for an indyref ?).

    So, why have the Scot Govt NEVER sought such a court ruling?

    Even, if the Court ruled an S30 is needed, so what? It would confirm the law, as written, is unjust, as it fails to recognise Scotland’s sovereign and democratic right of self-determination.

    We should also have had a LEGAL ruling about which methods, or none, is recognised under Scots Law, as the legal means and process of Scotland dissolving the Union.

    I’m losing count about how many times SNP or Scottish Greens politicians will go to court over devolution or the EU, such as A50 or devolution’s Sewel Convention or (the latest one) proroguing of the House of Commons.

    It’s NEVER been about how to END the Union.

  212. Hamish100 says:

    The SNP were warned by the speaker not to clap.

    As always the rules can be bent

  213. mike cassidy says:

    Fun With Flags.

    “How Apollo 11 Raised The Flag On The Moon, And What It Means Today “

    “The flag on the Moon is a great illustration of the fact that in space, nothing is simple,” said flag researcher and historian, and University of California Santa Barbara librarian, Annie Platoff in a recent statement. “For me, the flag on the Moon is an excellent example of something that seems very, very simple, but once you really start thinking about it, you realize is very complex.”

  214. Proud Cybernat says:

    Clapping IS permitted in the HoC but only on certain occasions. The times the SNP were clapping was not one of the permitted occasions.

  215. Republicofscotland says:

    Looks like Phil Hammond has jumped before he was pushed.

  216. Abulhaq says:

    @Mike Cassidy
    Complex? As complex as sticking a flag on some territory and by implication staking a claim to it.
    A practice well established terrestrially, e.g. Antarctic continent, so why not ‘lunarly’.

  217. Col.Blimp IV says:

    mike cassidy

    For all I know you may be right about those scoundrels Alcock and Brown. Two planes, a couple of lookalikes, friendly press and Politicians, some cash to buy the silence of the telegraph operators and a handful of curious yokels … difficult to disprove your theory.

    Though my doubts are based on the observation that the more conspicuous airship R34 ,flew from East Fortune to New York just a couple of weeks later and fifty years down the line, anyone with the price of the ticket could fly to and from anywhere in the world whenever they wanted to.

    Making long distance air travel an indisputable fact.

    50 years on from the Apollo missions to the 250,000 miles away Moon, nobody has claimed to have ventured more than 200 miles from Earth.

    Making claims of long distance manned space travel in days gone by, appear somewhat dubious.

  218. mike cassidy says:

    Interesting background read on the Iranian crisis.

    “How Corporate Media Are Fueling a New Iran Nuclear Crisis ”

  219. mike cassidy says:

    “Astronauts explain why nobody has visited the moon in more than 45 years — and the reasons are depressing “

  220. Hamish100 says:

    Permitted clapping times. Some democracy. Some folk get clap without permission ! Lol

  221. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Mike Cassidy

    What with the Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan wars slowing down, arms sales and the demand for the services of Military Contractors and the necessary supply chains must be at a thirty year low.

    The loud bang heard over the Straight of Hormuz was not the sound of an Iranian Drone being shot down … It was the sound of the Military Industrial Complex pressing the panic button.

    With all this Kennedy beatification going on in the thread above … let’s give a big cheer to his predecessor, who’s words of advice could have saved the lives of millions, in the past, now and in the future

    …Had they been heeded by the egomaniac Doughnut Boy and his successors.

  222. Abulhaq says:

    @Mike cassidy
    Iran etc in context.
    All who stick their hands into this regional nest of scorpions will get stung. Rivalries between Islamic states and their different brands of Islam constitute the greatest threat to world peace. Not convinced the Americans or the British, who really ought to know better, fully appreciate the volatility of the material they meddle with…and then there’s Pakistan, a nuclear power with dysfunctionality built in.
    The chain reaction, Israel, India, China, Russia, USA, UK, France is frightening to contemplate.

  223. ahundredthidiot says:

    I appreciate this Site

    For we live in a World full of Lies – and I very much doubt that this is a new development.

    I believe in Freedom to Choose – surely that is a noble thing we should all appreciate and tolerate – yet some people get angry.

    And that makes me suspicious of their motive.

  224. Colin Alexander says:

    Conspiracy theory 1: Were the moon landings were faked?

    Conspiracy theory 2. Why has the SNP prioritised stopping Brexit, then stopping “no-deal” Brexit,when “no-deal” Brexit could create the best ever chance of indy in the 100 years and is the basis of their mandate to call an indyref?


  225. Clootie says:

    HS2 will be cancelled long before it gets anywhere near Scotland. However you will get to pay for it linking London to a few English Cities.

    Empire 2 under Boris will kick off with a “joint” operation to subdue Iran. It will lead to a ramp up the Defence spend with the “promise” of those ships being built on the Clyde IF we reject this Independence nonsense – that seems a familiar story somehow!

  226. Abulhaq says:

    @Colin Alexander
    Facilitating the breaking of the chains that bind is the SNP’s sole function. That cannot be reiterated too often.

  227. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 5.20

    Brexit is very bad for the SNP.
    Only eejits don’t realise that Brexit leaves the UK shouting about a hard border between Scotland and its biggest trading partner if Scotland goes independent. This would be their biggest weapon against us.

    Discussed as suggested.

    Away you go and find another impediment.

  228. Petra says:

    @ mike cassidy says at 10:16 am …. ”Only a Scot. Hired by Nasa to work on the maths of orbiting.”..

    Thanks for the link Mike. Isn’t it just amazing that the ”stupid” Scots are often in the vanguard in relation to such incredible innovations. You’ll notice that with all of the coverage of the Moon landings this week no-one, such as the BBC, thought to give Archie Roy a mention.


    ”The Scottish, astronomer Archie Roy, was hired by NASA in the 60s to assist with their historic lunar landing.”..

    ”The Glasgow University professor was headhunted by the US space agency as he was a world-leading authority on the mechanics of orbits at that time. Archie, who was born the son of a shipyard worker in Glasgow’s Yoker, was “instrumental” in manually working out the calculations — long before computers were invented to do the task — for the Apollo 11 spacecraft’s journey around the moon. He also pinpointed possible landing sites for the lunar module before it touched down in the Sea Of Tranquility, with commander Neil Armstrong and pilot Buzz Aldrin on board.”….


    And another who rarely gets a mention … Paul Scott, from Edinburgh, working for the Foreign Office in Cuba.

    Cuban Missile Crisis:- ..”Realising the implications, Scott then sent an emergency telegram to the US authorities conveying the message that the Soviets were standing down their nuclear threat, which enabled the Americans to do the same.”…

  229. Petra says:

    And I’ve noticed that the Glasgow University site seems to be playing down some famous Scots achievements, lately. What’s that all about?


    Wikipedia too.

    It might be an idea, with Independence, to set up our own Scotipedia site. One that will be bursting at the seams.


  230. Effijy says:

    Personally I’d look to see Mrs May get the Clap.
    I hope see passed the Clap on to Bojo the Clown
    and wouldn’t it be nice to see the whole Tory Party completely
    clapped out!

  231. Legerwood says:

    Petra @ 6.02 PM

    There were the women who worked at NASA as human computers without whom the flights would not have taken place – they were African-Americans.

    Their story was told in a book which became a film – Hidden Figures.

  232. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Terry Callachan and Geeo: I’m sick to the back teeth of the pair of you. You’re both on pre-moderation until you learn to behave like civilised people.

  233. Petra says:

    @ Legerwood says at 6:17 pm … ”Petra – There were the women who worked at NASA as human computers without whom the flights would not have taken place – they were African-Americans. Their story was told in a book which became a film – Hidden Figures.”

    I saw the film Legerwood. ”Hidden Figures” sums it up right enough. Another group of ”stupid” people whose achievements have been played down. Totally suppressed at the time.


    ‘Edinburgh is ‘Cleantech’ capital of world.’


    Carpetbagger, McKenna, will do and say anything, for anyone, to put a buck or two in his pocket.

    ‘Kev ‘Greek’ McKenna pours anti-SNP bile out of the hatch in his wee ‘Trojan’ pony.’

  234. dandydons1903 says:

    The AngloBritish state security services must have a lot of dirt on Brown the fraud and are probably blackmailing him and he is probably not the only one in the unionist camp.

  235. Abulhaq says:

    More skew and lies from Brit media about Stena Impero. London on the bow does not make for a British ship, port of registration only. Stena Bulk is Swedish. Any complaints yet from Gothenburg?
    The British state is 100% scumbag!

  236. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dearie me, judging by my latest brief visitation, it seems that all references to the i-word have disappeared from here as well. =sigh=

    Still, in response to IB @ 21:44 yesterday, a desperate need to question and doubt even the most obvious actualité is a good indicator of the level of social sickness in a society; the more decadent and damaged the society, the more prevalent the feverish anti-speculation.

    Apropos of your other comment, Ian, about “eejits who go along with whatever the orthodoxy happens to be because it’s just too uncomfortable to kick against it”, I finally happened to catch up on “The Big Short” yesterday, and it illustrated your point to destruction.

    If you haven’t seen the film, peeps, make it a must. It should be compulsory showing in every school in the land. And if you don’t come out of it angry (in a non-geeo sense) and determined to make some change here, you are brain-dead.

    Oh, and that’s on-topic, since who do we have to thank for “saving the world banking system”? (Well, the world’s bankers, anyway.)

    I’ll give you one (jaw-juddering) guess…

  237. Mark Russell says:

    Christ, he’s at it again. Must be getting desperate living off a Westminster pension…

  238. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Colin Alexander

    I think the SNP’s apparent deviation from the shining path is down to two factors.

    1). The Party’s boss class becoming immersed in the long-standing “Independence in Europe” tactic, which seems to have evolved (in their minds) into a philosophy which is central to the party’s raison d’etere .

    2). The electoral success and expansion of the Party in recent years has brought in many “Johnny come lately” career orientated individuals, who in previous years would not have given the SNP a sideways glance. I mean SJW types in the Blairite mould, who now feel comfortable to self-identify as Scottish.

    As for whether there is a real conspiracy afoot, check out the CV’s of our elected representatives and see how many list, scholarships to US educational establishments and internships with US political organizations among their achievements. It does not necessarily make them the shills of Global Capitalism but it does make me wonder.

    I recall some years ago running into US interns seconded to the SNP, helping out at bi-elections and thinking WTF? but then again, I am a Commie at heart.

  239. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @6.00

    Lighten up … To the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

  240. Maria F says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “Only eejits don’t realise that Brexit leaves the UK shouting about a hard border between Scotland and its biggest trading partner if Scotland goes independent. This would be their biggest weapon against us”

    Actually I disagree with this. It will only be a weapon if we let them put ammunition in it. We just have to take their ammunition away. Actually, even better, to turn the weapon against them:

    If Scotland dissolves the treaty of union and remains in the EU, there is nothing stopping Scotland to change its current main trade partner from England to the EU. Scotland will have 27 different countries (plus all those that are in the SM and are not part of the EU) to choose from. At this moment in time, Scotland imports more from England than it exports to it, so I cannot see a great problem to find another trading partner that won’t be happy to sell to Scotland more than it can buy from it. That hard border is not going to be a problem for Scotland in terms of trade in the long term.

    Now, let’s look at the other side of the coin. Let’s look at England. England has a massive deficit of trade of goods with the EU, so while it will have a lot of trading sharks circling around to get a deal, it will not be necessarily to England’s advantage, particularly after Scotland’s assets cannot be used anymore to support the pound which will inevitably tank due to England’s eyewatering debt. England will lose its preferential trade with the EU if it leaves the EU without a deal. Not just that, mind, it will lose the opportunity to trade with all those countries out of the EU it has been trading by making use of the EU licences.

    What about Scotland? Well, if Scotland remains in the EU, clearly England will lose what I believe its is main trade partner, perhaps the only one with which England actually has a significant surplus in trade.

    Not just trade, mind. Because the way this union works centralising things in England and keeping Scotland underdeveloped as a consumer to avoid it being a competitor, the economic activities of Scotland generate quite a lot of jobs in England and with jobs, revenues. In other words, England gets a lot, an awful lot more from Scotland than Scotland gets from England in terms of economic benefit and all that could potentially stop should that hard border be in place. In other words, that hard border is going to affect much more England than Scotland.

    What does that hard border mean for England and Scotland then? well, in my view it will mean that many of the jobs that are currently in England and generated by Scotland’s economic activities (for example packing and distribution centres in England) will come to Scotland, increasing the recycling of money into our economy and potentially attracting more people that will bring more taxes. Also, as there will be less produce from England to compete with, there will be an opportunity for Scottish farmers and Scottish producers to have a bigger share of the domestic market and to experience growth. We should not forget about the ports. A hard border will encourage investment in Scotland to develop more ports, that again will bring more custom to Scotland taking it away from England.

    So what does that hard border mean for Scotland? The encouragement it needs to grow and develop. This may mean that in the long term, Scotland may need to import less, improving its balance of trade even more.

    What does the hard border mean for England? Well, unless it has something already lurking in the shadows (such as a UK-USa trade deal), if it leaves the EU without a deal it will start with no trade deals whatsoever. In other words, Scotland may lose one partner, England will lose them all and it will lose all the revenues it currently gets thanks to Scotland’s economic activities and freebies like electricity, gas and oil.

    And whose fault would that border be? Well, what is the government that will be responsible for a no deal brexit? Will that be Scotland’s government or rather England’s government? What country’s MPs have been involved in the EU withdrawal agreement? What country’s MPs have rejected Ms Cherry’s motion that would take the wheels off a no deal brexit? What country’s MPs are happy to leave the EU without a deal?

    Why is that hard border necessary?
    Because if England proceeds to have a trade deal with USA or any other country that involves departing from the EU standards decreasing the standards in its products, Scotland (and the EU) needs to protect themselves from it. The last thing you want is poor quality produce entering your borders and compromising your own standards and worse, the perception that your trading partners have of your standards and potentially destabilising your markets reducing the share of your own products in those markets.

    It seems to me that, as it is usual with the tories, they will always attempt to deceive and this is just another example. Here we can clearly see that the main affected by such hard border will be England and not Scotland, because of its own ill advised decisions. We also can see that it is in England’s hands today and not Scotland’s to stop that hard border tomorrow. Yet the political arms of the English establishment and its propaganda units will turn the omelette so it looks like it is of course Scotland’s fault and therefore Scotland MUST find the solution for it while England, responsible for the whole thing, gets away with having the whole cake and eating it.

    England will be solely responsible for that hard border, because it is England’s legitimate representatives who have made the decisions about Brexit and what kind of brexit. This hard border could have been avoided should the UK gov agreed to remain in the Single Market and Customs union. But against Wales, NI and Scotland’s interests, England MPs in the UK gov refused.

    So to Rome what is Rome’s and to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Let’s turn that weapon around and use against them: England and not Scotland will be the great loser should that hard border be in place.

  241. Seanair says:

    I seem to remember that the Mail used to criticise GB when he was PM and other times.
    Now he writes articles for the Mail and no doubt keeps the money.

  242. Terry callachan says:

    If you look for countries that are a danger to the world look at USA and UK
    Between them they have caused more wars in other countries than everyone else put together

    The USA and UK invented the use of the term “defence” when in reality they are never defending
    They are attacking
    Just since World War Two they have waged war against dozens of countries around the world
    Neither USA or UK have been attacked by anyone since World War Two

    There is hardly a country in the Middle East that has not been attacked by USA and UK
    The do it to destabilise these countries so that they can then help some immoral leader take control and sell oil to USA and UK at rock bottom prices

    They are about to do the same thing with Iran
    Over eighty million people live in Iran and half of them are under 40

    Iran has a wonderful history it s a beautiful land formerly knows as Persia
    It’s a huge country too , 17th biggest in the world

    The recent trouble with ships in the Persian gulf and Mediterranean are caused by the USA who believing they are the world police service ordered all countries around the world to stop trading with Syria
    Syria has oil but it’s in land not controlled by Assad so Iran has been sending oil supplies to Syria
    Normally they send it on ships that go down the Persian gulf then up the Red Sea and through the Suez Canal a fairly short journey but at the start of this year Egypt under pressure from USA stopped Iran sending ships through the Suez Canal so now Iran has to send their ships around the bottom of Africa and through the Mediterranean a much longer journey

    Acting as the USA,s bully boys , the UK are now stopping Iran shipping oil to Syria through the Mediterranean

    Iran hired a ship from another country to deliver oil to Syria but it was stopped at Gibraltar by UK war ships

    Iran is now sending oil to Syria in trucks

    Iran does not consider itself to be an Arab country
    It is Persian
    It was conquered by the Muslims 1300 years ago and grudgingly converted to the Muslim religion but it isn’t Arab
    it’s allies do not include many Arab countries because Iran is steadfastly against royal families and many Arab countries do now have royal families

    Keep an eye on USA and UK behaviour towards Turkey which would be an even bigger danger to the world

  243. Republicofscotland says:

    “It might be an idea, with Independence, to set up our own Scotipedia site. One that will be bursting at the seams.”


    An excellent idea, I’d wager that many Scots don’t even realise the achievements of other Scots throughout history, one of the drawbacks of being tied to this unequal union.

    As you rightly point out we have much to crow about.

  244. Republicofscotland says:

    “The Scottish, astronomer Archie Roy, was hired by NASA in the 60s to assist with their historic lunar landing.”..”


    If this is the same Mr Roy, Wiki doesn’t even menton his links with NASA, and the historic moon landing.

  245. Sinky says:

    BBC Scotland never knowingly talking up Scotland. Scottish golfer Robert Macintyre finishes joint sixth in Open Championship in his first season as a professional but BBC said he had a top ten finish

  246. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Maria F at 7.09

    All very worthy – but it will certainly be the biggest and most damging weapon they use against us with the 100% assistance of all the media.

    Better we stay in the EU (as we were in 2014 and nearly won)and win independence from a much higher base. You don’t think any respect for the UK is going to return,do you? That’s gone forever.

    We will win more readily on the “friendly neighbours” platform.

  247. mike cassidy says:

    Petra and Legerwood

    Must catch up with the “Hidden Lives” book.

    Here’s the only woman NASA let out the backroom so to speak.

    And here she is now at 75.

    A terrific series that “Chasing The Moon”

    Of course I present all this with the understanding that its all bollocks, the landings were faked and Poppy Northcutt is yet another one who’s been lying her arse off for half a century.

    Wouldn’t want to upset the fragile moonlanding trolls!

  248. mike cassidy says:

    And let’s not forget the role of the bramakers!

  249. schrodingers cat says:

    RE english exports to scotland

    most of englands exports are non unique, eg hienz ketchup, nestle nescafe, toyota cars etc.

    when scotland becomes indy in the sm/cu, these goods will simply be sourced from elsewhere in the eu without the extra english tax,
    people here wouldnt even notice the change unless they read the small writing on the lables.

    some goods which are made in england, eg muller yogurt, cornish clotted cream etc, will simply be replaced by similar eu brands, once again, the people in scotland probably wont even notice.

    this process will happen very quickly and once completed, we will se that england produces exports almost noting which is unique to anyone. not just scotland.

    oh, and any unique goods they do export will lose the eu brand protection, jellied eels, yarmouth bloaters, cornish pasties etc.

    in scotland, all of these processing industries were stripped away by westminster long ago. youngs fish processing in annandale being moved to grimsby the last one. All of the big companies will increase production of goods in the eu and reduce the same in england, from cars to cornflakes. many eu countries will benifit hugely from this.

    an indy scotland could also benifit

    however, scotlands exports are mainly unique items
    whisky, oil, water, stud beef, petrol, seed potatoes, gas, fish, electricity, salmon,

  250. Terry callachan says:

    To rev Stuart Campbell…point taken

  251. Col.Blimp IV says:

    mike cassidy

    Buzz Lightyear wasn’t lying to anyone when he claimed to be a Space Ranger … He genuinely believed that he was.

    The cabal that were running the scam did not tell him that he was just a Toy … deceptions are run on a “need to know” basis.

  252. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Buzz Aldrin on the other hand…LoL.

  253. Legerwood says:

    I do not see any reason to get our knickers in a twist about a hard border between an independent Scotland in the EU and a non-EU England.

    Many EU countries have hard borders with non-EU countries eg Estonia (EU) and Russia (non-EU) and seem to manage OK and Estonia was once in a Union with Russia was it not?

    It is England making an issue of it. Make the rebuttal short and sweet.

    Do not get dragged into a discussion, debate, argument by accepting their premise that a hard border is a problem then going through all sort of contortions trying to show it won’t be. People just switch off when arguments become too complex, too technical.

    Other EU countries have hard borders and they are no big deal.

    Republic of Scotland @ 7.27 PM

    “”An excellent idea, I’d wager that many Scots don’t even realise the achievements of other Scots throughout history, one of the drawbacks of being tied to this unequal union.””

    If the ‘many Scots’ don’t realise what other Scots have achieved throughout history then that is down to them. Their laziness, lack of curiosity or interests leading them in other directions but not the ‘unequal union’. However ‘unequal’ it did not obliterate our history or hide it from us. It has always been there in plain sight if you cared to look.

    We were taught to read – schools were free, libraries are free and the country is littered with monuments, museums (free entry) and castles that speak to things from the past.

  254. Col.Blimp IV says:

    schrodingers cat

    Is clotted cream made anywhere outwith Devon, Cornwall and Somerset?

    No matter … My love of Scotland far exceeds my love of clotted cream on a scone with a dod of jam on top.

    If independence requires us to make sacrifices … then so be it.

  255. Col.Blimp IV says:


    “People just switch off when arguments become too complex, too technical”

    Too true.

    I can’t say for sure that I have come across anyone who gives a hoot about “THE NORTHERN IRISH BACKSTOP” or who even has a clue what it’s implications are.

  256. Maria F says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “We will win more readily on the “friendly neighbours” platform”

    Absolutely, but we need to be realistic. That is only possible if the neighbour is willing to remain friendly. From where I am standing, this does not seem to be the case at all, the neighbour wants it all and compromise on nothing.

    It is not Scotland who is pushing for a no deal brexit. It is the English MPs in charge of the UK and some other dodgy characters working from the shadows. It would be so easy to remain in “friendly” terms: they just needed to agree to the proposals of the Scottish gov, like remaining in the SM and Customs Union. That was a good compromise, middle point between what England wants and what Scotland wants. That would ensure no hard border neither in Great Britain nor in Ireland. It potentially would delay independence. But the England MPs threw that friendly opportunity away as they threw away Ms Cherry’s proposal to stop no deal on its tracks so they are now heading for a “no deal” brexit, which is the most unfriendly of terms.

    Negotiation means 2 parties walking half way to meet in the middle. The kind of “friendly” negotiation England MPs appear to expect is that of they not moving while the other party in the negotiation walks all the way to them. That is not possible in this case.

    On the other hand, I think the people of Scotland should be made aware and explained properly sooner rather than later why this hard border may be needed and the potential implications of a USA-UK (USA-England?) for our market, our food industry, our farmers, our health, the quality of our products and how it may affect the way our standards are being perceived by trading partners. The sooner this is done and the more informed people are the less “unpleasant surprises” will happen afterwards and the less room for Mundell’s propaganda unit to peddle disinformative and deceptive nonsense there will be.

  257. Breeks says:

    Maria F says:
    21 July, 2019 at 7:09 pm
    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    If Scotland stays in the EU, then there will be a hard border with England, because just like Ireland, the EU will not accept an open back door access for non EU goods into the single market.

    There was an interesting conversation on Marr with an Irish spokesman, who’s name I forget, but a great credit to his government. Marr was trying to pin him down by saying that if the UK simply ignored the Backstop, Ireland and the EU would have to take responsibility for implementing a border.

    In some respects, that’s true, but what went unspoken were the ramifications for a UK economy which arbitrarily provoked tensions in Ireland with it’s reckless Brexit, unilaterally undermined the Good Friday Agreement Internationally ratified peace treaty, and then abdicated all responsibility for the resulting crisis and obliged Europe to take control of the Irish Border.

    Not only could a Brexited UK forget about any Free Trade Agreements with Europe, I think there is an extraordinarily high probability the EU will introduce Trade Sanctions against the UK, and the UK will find it has a devil of a job securing trade agreements with anybody. In particular, the USA has already cautioned that it will stand by the Good Friday Agreement and International Law.

    There is the maverick Trump factor to consider, and perhaps the USA might look the other way while the UK throws Ireland under a bus, but all things considered, I don’t believe Trump would get away with it. He might well go to wire and even beyond for American interests, but not for anybody else’s.

    I’ve said it before however, that I think Scotland is missing a trick here.

    Yes, an Indy Scotland would require a hard border with England, but Scotland might also negotiate itself into a transitional Trade zone for Anglo European Trade. Scotland’s hard border with England would be very hard indeed for non compatible Trade Goods, but a more relaxed buffer type trade zone for goods and materials from England which did meet EU standards.

    Scotland would be in the EU, with the European Court and European Law at it’s back, but have a formally agreed transitional status, with both the power and the responsibility to regulate its hard border to exclude non compliant English goods, but allow through goods which are compliant.

    In crude terms, the EU I suppose would have a back door open for goods from a non-EU country, but by special arrangement, there would be a Scottish Customs Inspector auditing everything that went through it.

    Europe thus gets a means to continue trade with England, but doesn’t have to worry about convergence of standards, because that’s Scotland’s job. England gets a supply line to export goods into Europe, but also freedom to deregulate and do it’s Brexit madness but continue to trade with Europe forewarned that all sub standard or deregulated trade goods will be turned away at the Scottish border.

    I know, Scotland does take on some rather irksome responsibility, but would also benefit immensely from through trade between England and Europe, – but the more immediate benefit for Scotland is that in order to facilitate this EU trade lifeline for England, Scotland would have to be an Independent Sovereign Nation, and become Independent by mutual consent and progressive lawful agreement. England and Scotland must both constructively back the dissolution of the United Kingdom to liberate and empower Scotland to take on full EU membership status, and do so in order that Scotland might function as a trade intermediary and economic lifeline for England.

    Hard bargaining required, yes, but ultimately a win, win, win for all three parties involved. Everybody gets “most” of what they want, but Scotland gets all.

    Think the unthinkable England. Scotland’s Independence might actually be your best hope of an economic lifeline with Europe, while allowing you to indulge in your Brexit midlife crisis and get it out of your system.

  258. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Legerwood at 9.34

    “I do not see any reason to get our knickers in a twist about a hard border between an independent Scotland in the EU and a non-EU England.”

    You might not. But that is not the point. Many will.

  259. Lenny Hartley says:

    schrodingers cat 20:47 Stuff may be manf in England but most of the raw materials are sourced in the EU of further afield. Take Heinz Baked beand , 200 tonnes of beans from USA daily, tomatoes from Italy, sugars from South Africa, the UK sourced materials are the tins from Wales , paper and water from England, dont know where the ink comes from. I watched a tv program on Heinz Baked Beans production on tv a couple of years ago, im not a bean anorak or addict , just thought those figures were interesting so stored them in heid.

  260. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Am I not being very clear,or do some people not understand politics.

    I am making no comment about the potential or imagined effect of a hard border. Or whether it will even happen.

    I am pointing out that it will be the biggest argument against us if Brexit happens – and that his will have a very significant effect on many voters.

    Do not forget that one of the most damaging weapon against us last time was the currency question. The fact that that campaign was a based on shameless big lie made it no less effective.

  261. Cactus says:

    Hey you John Bull, bustin’ oot frae the middle seam

    Save us Cairnstoon Hamish!

    Low battery, dang

  262. ScottieDog says:

    Wrt to trade with England, it seems that the best situation is EFTA. It provides greater flexibility than full membership and tolerates capital controls (like we saw in iceland).

    When it comes down to it London doesn’t want to throw it’s trade under a bus.

  263. Cactus says:

    Roll up… roll up…

    Nae need fur that t’other diversionary pointing Hamish, on the previous thread… wur ye referring tae moi?

    Hey Sunday!

  264. schrodingers cat says:


    this is true,but the point i was making is that big companies, eg nestle have factories making eg nescafe all over europe (no coffee grown in the eu)
    once england leaves the eu, nescafe output in the english factory will fall until it reaches english demand while output in eg the spannish factory will increase to cover the lost english eu export. the same is happening to the car industry, 80% of carss made in england are exported to the eu, car production will fall in england until it covers home sales, car production in other car plants will increase and pick up the lost english eu exports.

    an indy scotland in the eu wouldnt notice the difference but englands trade with us would fall to almost zero

    scotlands exports on the otherhand, are almost all unique items which in many cases england couldnt do without.oil gas, water, electricity etc

  265. Cactus says:

    And ah fine evenin’ to ye too Essexexile, cheers 4 urs

    Are ye fur the showcase showdown?!

    Aye ahm

  266. Maria F says:


    “Yes, an Indy Scotland would require a hard border with England, but Scotland might also negotiate itself into a transitional Trade zone for Anglo European Trade”

    And why should it do that? Entry of England produce will mean what we have now: a majority of England produce in our supermarkets while our own Scottish produce gets a tiny share of the market. I think this hard border is an opportunity for Scotland produce to take over a much bigger share of the domestic market and also can take a chunk of England’s current market share in the EU.

    Sorry I am not convinced at all by your proposal. The only advantage I see, as always appears to be the case, is for England. England seems to be all what matters. Your proposal appears to get England to keep its cake and eat it, while Scotland is hard at work and paying for the patrolling of the hard border caused by England’s brexit and also giving away to England its new domestic market and potentially EU’s market share of food produce and others. And what do we get in return exactly?

  267. Cactus says:

    Are u ready Essexexile…?

    And are you ready 4 ah guid time?

    Well get yersel ready fur the nite…

    Electricity knows

  268. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny Hartley (10.23) –

    ‘I am not a bean anorak or addict’

    is one of the best things I have ever read here or anywhere else.

    I salute you sah!


  269. Cactus says:

    Awe ra best 2 yee’s geeo and Terry…

    Yee’s are on the step, merited

    See yee’s on yer return

    Cheers dudes

  270. Tackety Beets says:

    I have done post regarding Scotland / England / EU trade & what physically happens.

    Currently we visit a store be it Industrial / Electrical / Furniture and purchase goods which are NOT or seldom Made in UK / Britain

    An element of imported goods mainly “generic” goods will be imported direct to UK mostly via an English Importer. There are a number of Scottish ones too. The English Importer will either sell to Scottish wholesale & retailers for us to purchase. IMHO the revised cost for us in iScotland will be determined by said English Importer plus any extra depending on EU/ Kingdom Of England deal.

    Here now is the situation with BRANDS like Sony, Bose, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha , Fender and most of those household brands you have in your house. They ALL have central EU warehousing usually Belgium or Holland quick despatch thro’ EU

    These big Brands are global players. Denon Marantz moved their UK admin from Middlesex 5 or 6 years ago to Belfast, cost cutting exercise ?
    What needs to be understood tho’ is these English/ UK offices are exactly that an admin office to take orders from their outlets forward to be despatched to Scotland from the warehouse in EU. These outlets are INVOICED from the admin office obviously in £s

    What happens In iScotland ?
    Our outlets will simply order direct to the Main Office in EU , believe me they nearly all answer the phone & emails in English.
    Invoice & payments will be in £s
    I know this as it has been gradually happening with slick operating brands who have Reps for UK areas inc Scotland eg A store in Hamilton will have a rep visit who lives in Livingston & Cover’s Scottish outlets & order arrives in a day or 2 from B or H
    TBH most Scottish Reps cover Ireland too but that’s an aside.

    I expect “generic” brands to start arriving from EU warehouses eventually.

    IMHO WM knows how much Scottish admin trade would suddenly be pulled from their grasp. These offices all contribute to the UK….ehhmmm English economy.

    We have all experienced arriving in EU and asking in the local lingo & being answered in English. Smiley.

  271. Cactus says:

    Mah bad, everybuddie’s cool

    Now is the time furra wee faithful toddy…


  272. Cactus says:

    Phone power is about to go, so ah wud just like tae wish ye well, one and all Scotland

    Sort yerselves oot misbehavers


  273. Hamish100 says:

    Borderland- we will see pictures of grannies and their bairns on either side of the border greetin. Nasty snp preventing people’s meeting, no more English mustard or Yorkshire puds.

    The fact that the same people could be in America or Oz and they would still be related and would not be an issue. Only in an independent Scotland would this be bad,

    Have we no heart. The royals having their passports checked and being refused entry!

  274. Petra says:

    @ Legerwood says at 9:34pm …. “If the “many Scots” don’t realise what other Scots have achieved throughout history that is down to them.” … “It has always been in clear sight if you cared to look.”..

    Well I must say that I totally disagree with you on this issue Legerwood. Many people aren’t interested in history. Many don’t read books. Many people don’t access the Internet either for one reason or another. Many Scots were taught “English history” in our schools, as our Scottish history was played down or suppressed altogether, IMO.

    Many Scots are however influenced by what they read in newspapers, more so what’s omitted, or what they see in movies. As to the latter (many movies), as one “unequal Union” example, England’s stiff upper lipped, upper class crew won both World Wars single-handed, as the Scots (and others) contributed nought. A recent example was the extensive coverage (hours long which I watched) by the BBC of the second World War. Not one Scot, Welsh or Irish veteran, or relative, was interviewed. Blatant bias. Seemingly the Scots played no part in that War (or others), so it still goes on: The brainwashing. You may say that their laziness, lack of curiosity or interest is at fault. I say that many Scots have been influenced, beaten down, by Westminter propaganda. Bombarded. That in turn, thinking that the Scots are inveterate losers, leads to them not wanting to pursue any type of further investigations at all.

    Then if you are a reader much of Scottish history is totally skewed by English (or other) historians putting their personal slant on Scottish affairs / history. The clearances for one. The Irish famine for another. Not Scottish but impacted greatly on us. Either .. or … lies abounding.

    Anyway it just so happens that I am interested in history, do read extensively and do access the Internet and what I’ve found is that Scots are often referred to as being British when they are “achievers” and I’ve had to carry out MANY further searches to get to the truth, that is to find out that they were in fact Scottish. Wikipedia is just one example of the “British rather than Scottish achievers” and of course is extremely popular if one wants to access information. And to add to that I think I’m fairly knowledgable when it comes to Scottish history but further searches, even on Wikipedia, leads me to finding out about even more famous Scots that I’ve actually never heard of at all. A search of famous Scots, online, is in fact practically endless. Goes on and on forever.

    I don’t see a “Scotipedia” being a bad or wasted idea at all. If anything we’ll have a comprehensive list of all Scottish achievers which I’m sure would boost our, much needed and depleted, Scottish morale. And going forward we could broadcast documentaries, and produce films, based on such a site. Over and above all other social and emotional advantages, a real money maker for Scotland I’d say.

  275. Lenny Hartley says:

    schrodingers cat Yup agree been saying for ages that England does not export anything to us which is critical for our economy but we can supply critical goods to them at a cheaper price due to lower transport costs.
    IB thanks glad you like it, interesting week ahead, does anybody think Boris will get his Government approved? I think the chances are high of Parliament refusing to back his government or if they do getting a no confidence agreement , wonder if the SNP will mention the I word in their election literacture. Hopefully they have learned the lessons of 2017.

  276. cynicalHighlander says:

    Ca canny on the toddies Cactus or you’ll go into “Toodle ooh the noo “ mode then the swearing will start, take care.

  277. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    If the UK stays in the EU, wouldn’t we have a re-run of 2014? The UK Govt would run with the line: “Vote NO to stay in the UK and the EU: a Yes vote is a vote to be out of the UK AND the EU.”

    Trying to force, or hoping the UK will stay in the EU, cos economically it would suit an indy Scotland is (politically) silly. If the UK stays in the EU, there won’t be an indy-Scotland. The SNP indyref mandate would be deid.

    Also, even if there were to be an indyref2, with no Brexit, wouldn’t people again vote for the UK status quo? Even more so, since people have witnessed the difficulties and economic uncertainties that exiting the EU creates.

    Knowing that the SNP are scared to make any pre-emptive move and will only react after the “Brexit fog” has cleared, I thought the smart option was for the UK to stay in the EU until 2021 until the end of the SNP mandate for an indyref. Then the UK would leave the EU, taking Scotland with it with no pro-indy majority at Holyrood. But May’s plan never worked: The snap election did not get her a majority. The right-wing Tories were not prepared to wait. Support for the SNP remains high.

    So, it looks like they are going to neuter Holyrood without waiting for the end of a pro-indy majority at Holyrood. There is nobody to stop them. The docile and compliant SNP administratrs aren’t going to lead a rebellion for Scottish democracy. Maybe a: “how dare you!” headline in the National and a few tweets from Nicola expressing her outrage. That will be it.

  278. Petra says:

    And now I’m watching a programme on ITV3 about Rosslyn Chapel … Scotland. The presenters are English. Are there no bl**dy Scots capable of covering their posts? Scots being done out of a job once again. No wonder over 54,000, in the main, highly intelligent Scots are leaving Scotland every year. Hopefully all of this will change when we get our Independence. Scunnered with it.

  279. Breeks says:

    Maria F says:
    21 July, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    ….. And what do we get in return exactly?

    A Westminster Government which constructively supports Scottish Independence, and a Unionist community in Scotland with the rug pulled out from its Unionism. Even if it’s reluctant to a degree, it’s a massive step forward for Scotland to sidestep an acrimonious divorce which Westminster fights Tooth and nail.

    An EU membership for Scotland, but a bespoke EU membership where Scotland “conceding” to be a buffer state is thus in a strong bargaining position to negotiate any opt outs and special conditions it likes… such as the Common Fisheries. Scotland would after all be providing Europe and England with a silver bullet to resolve the Irish Backstop and facilitate a workable withdrawal agreement and ongoing trade relationship for England.

    Scotland’s ports would get access to EU support to upgrade our Port facilities, and cross border rail links and infrastructure, be compensated financially for maintaining Border controls, and entitled to claim a margin for handling through-trade bound for Europe or inbound for England. The reverse happens now. Scottish produce goes to England and is counted as English export. We would tip the scales the other way.

    With regard to our supermarkets being flooded with English goods, I’m not so sure. Any divergence and deregulation in production would see inferior produce halted at the hard border, and all English goods would maintain EU standards of labelling, – no butchers apron on anything anymore, but a specific English flag designating country of origin, and the same for all Scottish food and drink heading south to England.

    No chlorinated chicken for Scotland, no USA style growth hormones in meat, no produce whatsoever in fact which isn’t EU compliant.

    England is free to embrace deregulation of its production, but know that such produce is not suitable for export to Scotland, and if they try conning Scotland, then we reserve the right and capacity to close our hard border and punish the deception with the weight and power of EU Courts and Justice.

    A Scotland which isn’t Independent cannot stay in the EU to help England. To me, that’s the basis for a constructive new arrangement which breaks the current stalemate and insoluble conundrums like the Irish Backstop.

    Get Scotland and EU putting their heads together, and making Westminster an offer they cannot refuse.

    But it would all have to happen BEFORE Brexit occurs, and that requires Scottish initiative and constructive intervention, not sitting in silence, largely impotent and ignored. After 3 years of “nothing”, it might already be too late, and the window of opportunity is about to close and be squandered. But that’s why people like me get so angry and exasperated with the SNP’s timidity and lack of initiative. It has nothing to do with impatience, and all to do with blind intransigence and “we know best” static entrenchment.

  280. Breeks says:

    Screw the Summer recess, get a Scottish Trade Mission over to Brussels NOW, and demand talks with Michel Barnier to produce a a third way, that doesn’t tinker or rewrite with Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement, but changes the whole Brexit landscape.

    When Scotland has a transitional trading status, backed by Europe on a formal basis, Westminster can be offered a meaningful proposal to extricate itself from Europe without completely wrecking its economy, provoking the Troubles in Northern Ireland and becoming a rogue pariah state.

  281. Breeks says:

    And before people say that the EU couldn’t formally negotiate with Scotland, I agree to a point, but that’s the point where Scotland should cite it’s constitutional sovereignty, to persuade Michel Barnier that Scotland has a credible route to it’s own sovereign emancipation, and that the EU thus has due cause to extend a degree of provisional recognition of Scotland, probationary at first, but at least adequate to holding meaningful negotiations independently from Westminster, and legitimate in their capacity to discuss an alternative Brexit to a No Deal Brexit or No Brexit at all options looming in October.

    In my opinion, SNP needs to urgently reposition itself away from a No Brexit option, and instead start promoting a different Brexit where an Indy Scotland let’s England proceed with Brexit with less of the pain, but in return, England/Westminster embraces Scotland’s political emancipation, Sovereign Independence, and continuity of Scottish EU membership.

  282. Robert Louis says:

    Petra at 122am,

    Oh, I really, really agree with your point. I despair at media companies, who try to cover Scottish culture or history. Instead of using Scottish expertise, the ship up, some oxbridge nob, who supposedly, ‘did Edinburgh’, for the footlights or whatever, as a student. No offing knowledge of Scotland, aside from that the nonsense they get taught at the likes of Eaton or Harrow.

    Just sick of it. Every time they make programmes or interviews, you can be sure they will have at least one English voice.

    Imagine you lived in France, and every freaking programme on TV or advert, was voiced by a German. Yiou’d soon get totally p*ssed off. Indeed, the French, would not tolerate that for one freaking second.

    This isn’t racism, it’s about preserving Scotland and its culture, arts and history. No other country in the world would tolerate this. F*ck the union.

  283. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    FibDems Jim Murphy moment later today if they elect Jo Swinson as leader.


  284. Robert Louis says:

    Regarding the many points made above, about indy trade etc..

    In my opinion, the one single thing indyscotland MUST be is in the EU. only that will give us sufficient clout to negotiate with the clowns in Westminster, who can see nothing but union jacks and ‘rule britannia’.

    However, I would temper all of that by saying, things are very different compared to 2014. almost half the folk in England oppose brexit. They are angry about it – especially Londoners. If Scotland goes for independence, I think many in England will cheer us on. We will not have ‘celebrities’ lining up to love-bomb Scotland, like in 2014. Instead we will have many in England, wishing Scotland well.

    I think this single aspect, is much, much more important that all the other factors put together. It is about public perception – especially in England. I do not think it should be underestimated. Their will be no one-sided programmes with English folk all lamenting Scotland becoming independent, in fact in many cases I think they will simply point the finger at the fat upper-class git in Downing Street, and call him for what he is. Boris the clown, the village idiot, promoted way beyond abilities, who single-handedly, through his arrogance and stupidity ended the treaty of union between Scotland and England.

  285. Robert Louis says:

    jocjanese at 0723am,

    Jo Swinson, the two-faced lying gift that will just keep on giving.

  286. hackalumpoff says:

    See Nana’s links here;

  287. Ken500 says:

    Tories will be losing their 2 majority when Johnston becomes PM. Tory fighting Tory. Doing their own dirty work. Into oblivion the Tories will go. Johnston has destroyed the Tory Party. A bunch of imbeciles. Aided by the LibDems and Labour. Brown, Clegg and Cameron. All voted out to oblivion. Reneged on all their promises. Still tax evading on public money. They have helped the Independence cause with their trickery and lies. Another IndyRef that can be won coming soon. Ireland re united?

    Worth it to get rid of the Westminster unionist imbeciles. What a complete and utter shambles. The Westminster unionist in fighting. A world laughing stock. Led by the biggest clown. The dope on a rope no one can take seriously. A pathetic thieving liar.

  288. Ken500 says:

    There are as many people from Scotland in the rest of the UK. People from the rest of the UK in Scotland. Percentage wise 10%? Many people from Scotland get top jobs. Great education system. People from Scotland migrate all over the world. A 40Million diaspora. Scotland has friends in high places all over, including the EU. They do not support Brexit. They will help if Scotland votes for change.

  289. Ken500 says:

    The curriculum has changed. Scottish history is now taught in schools. A history appreciated all over the world. Scottish invention changed the modern world. The Declaration of Arbroath and the Enlightenment philosophy influenced the world. Equality, rights and freedom. Influenced world changes. . The Scottish commitment to education, meritocracy and equality.

    One of the first countries to have universal tertiary education. The Church parish system. A commitment to universal education. Scotland has one of the highest educated pop in the world. More universities pro rata. (15). Colleges and life long learning. Scottish history is so interesting for youngsters and others. .

    Scottish invention changed the modern world. TV, radio tele communication led on to the internet. Medical science, engineering. Glasgow was the centre of engineering industrial development. Late 19C. Literature, music, technology, exports, renewables. Self sufficient in surplus.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence for a better world. Get another to vote as well.

    Robert the Bruce film restrictive.

    The Chinese ‘Scotland the land of invention’. ‘Britain a small island without Empire’.
    The auld French Alliance. Historical ties with Russia and US, NZ, Australia, Canada, Europe, China, India etc. Trade and export. Whisky, salmon, potatoes, food abd drink sector. Oil & Gas, wind and wave technology.

  290. ScotsRenewables says:

    If any of the other saner and more literate btl commenters on here want a blog spot on, get in touch. You can pm me on Twitter.

  291. Abulhaq says:

    A rather ‘old fashioned’ and romanticized view of Scotland’s situation. Until Scots make the break no one will be doing the country any special favours. Even after the great event there is no guarantee of real ‘friends’. There will be plenty of ‘likes’ ie fair weather and false friends.
    Scotland effectively will be starting out from zero in a world where few give Scotland a second thought. For some that is an exciting opportunity for ‘national reconstruction’, for others just too scary.
    There has been enough rhetoric, chat and dreaming of what might be. We need to get on with the job and at the same time be realist. Special relationships don’t exist, no one owes countries like Scotland a living. We’re on our own. That, after all, is what independence means.

  292. Clootie says:


    Thank you for the link. I was starting to miss the work by Nana to put the key summaries in place.

  293. Cactus says:

    Mornin’ cynicalHighlander, aye the toddies were terrific, nah nae swearies fur the now, it’s a matter of choice 🙂

    SO today we find out who the LibDems new leader is and tory voting ends for their new PM

    Have an excellent day Wingers

  294. call me dave says:

    Heir to throne in England top but not in Scotland.
    Paper fakes a Scottish top on the wee boy. 🙂


    Can’t wait to hear the result of the new leader election.
    What a pair.

    Bojo and Jo. 🙂

  295. Robert Kerr says:

    @call me dave

    What a pair refers to one of them surely. The other is a complete one!

  296. The British nationalist Scotsman Politics twitter account has just been burned by a UK parliament twitter account (30,000 followers),

    There is no “convention” that the PM be applauded on their final appearance. Absolute nonsense.
    Quote Tweet

    Scotsman Politics
    · 15h
    SNP MPs have been branded ‘childish’ following reports they will ignore Westminster convention by refusing to applaud Theresa May after she makes her final appearance in the Commons as Prime Minister.

  297. Clapper57 says:

    @ Petra @ 12.44am

    Hi Petra, my husband NEVER EVER goes onto social media..not interested…but he is extremely knowledgeable about Scottish history…and he has always supported Independence….because he knows our history and our true potential as a people to achieve great things….his politics is determined by his knowledge of Scottish history and not influenced or decided by any political discourse online.

    I think you are 100% correct in that Scottish morale and perceptions is skewed by the English interpretation of our history and I also think the over emphasis of the ‘BritNat shared’ history we are taught at school accounts for much of the thinking from those who see an independent Scotland as being too wee, too poor and thus only better and stronger as part of a UKOK….plus the media promotes on steroids the ‘BritNat’ vision of UKOK….a not so subtle brainwashing exercise for the gullible among us.

    For many people there can be no pride or sense of identity if they do not know the history of their country or the historical/current achievements of one’s fellow countrymen.

    It suits some of our neighbours aka the powers that be to suppress this as they prefer to keep us uninformed and thus oblivious to our potential to succeed as an independent country.

    At school , in history , I learnt about World war 1, the Russian revolution and the industrial revolution….there was NOTHING about Scottish history….I suspect for many on here it was/is the same.

    We have fake historians like uber Unionist Neil Oliver who interprets Scottish history in such a way that he seeks to determine we are no better or greater than we Scots seem to like to think we are….a stance that ensures his survival within the media… long as he continues to broadcast the message of ‘Hey guys the Scots in history …..why look they were the bad guys too…. so why are you so proud to be Scottish’.

    But hey…broadcasters in UKOK are playing ‘reality’ television to the masses to ensure we keep the public as dumbed-down, uninformed and uninquisitive as they can be…thus deflecting their attention away from the true reality that is controlling and dictating their lives….Ho Hum twas ever thus and will ever be…however come Independence I think we Scots must expect and get MORE from our media and perhaps educate our people early, via school, to learn history from a Scottish perspective….as it should be in any normal independent country.

  298. Republicofscotland says:

    “If the ‘many Scots’ don’t realise what other Scots have achieved throughout history then that is down to them. Their laziness, lack of curiosity or interests leading them in other directions but not the ‘unequal union’. However ‘unequal’ it did not obliterate our history or hide it from us. It has always been there in plain sight if you cared to look.”


    A rather harsh attitude towards your fellow Scots folks, don’t you think?

    You’re not taking into account that most folk, especially young ones get their info online or from the tv. Remind me again Legerwood, just how many factual Scottish history programmes are ran frequently on the British state controlled media.

  299. Legerwood says:

    Republicofscotland @ 10.20am

    Not at all harsh.

    Whether it is covered by TV programmes or not is neither here nor there.

    People are taught to read, the country is littered with ancient monuments are you really arguing that if it is not on TV all of that – free schooling, free access to books etc is of no moment?

  300. Republicofscotland says:

    @Clapper 57 10.18 am.

    All very true Clapper.

  301. admiral says:

    22 July, 2019 at 10:07 am
    The British nationalist Scotsman Politics twitter account has just been burned by a UK parliament twitter account (30,000 followers),
    There is no “convention” that the PM be applauded on their final appearance. Absolute nonsense.

    Didn’t the Daily Heil and other Yoon “news”papers go ape and full “SNP BADDDDD!” when SNPs MPs applauded something in Parliament and were rebuked by the Speaker

  302. Welsh Sion says:

    Further up the thread posters comment on the Scots involved in the moon landing and the NASA space programme. I agree wholeheartedly that little acknowledgement is given to them – qua Scots – and this is to be deplored.

    Here’s further proof, if required, of how little is promoted about us ‘smaller nations’ punching above our weight in the international field – the following Cymry are known pioneers of the NASA space program.

    Hugh Percy Wilkins (1896-1960) was an engineer from Carmarthen/Caerfyrddin whose detailed maps of the moon were acquired by NASA in order to ascertain the best place for Eagle to land in July 1968.

    William Grove (1811-1896) was a physical scientist and judge from Abertawe/Swansea who invented the hydrogen fuel cell which would power the Apollo space programs.

    Tecwyn Roberts (1925-1988) from Llanddaniel-fab worked closely with Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong and others on the Apollo missions aschief of Nasa’s network engineering division.

    John Dillwyn Llewellyn (1810-1882) of Abertawe/Swansea took the first ever photos of the moon.

  303. Republicofscotland says:

    “are you really arguing that if it is not on TV all of that – free schooling, free access to books etc is of no moment?”


    Not at all, are Scots children taught Scottish history at School, if not why not?

    What I’m saying is that most folk who don’t read books, or have an intrest in history, wont have their imagination sparked to seek out Scots history under the media set up of this union.

    If those folk say, don’t buy the National newspaper which carries very good articles on Scottish history (Even the National recognises the need) then most folk might not get that spark of curiosity to seek out Scots history.

    You didn’t answer my question on the media, neither here nor there is an answer.
    Does the British media carry much Scottish history factual or not content. That would give someone the spark of curiosity into Scottish history?

  304. Clapper57 says:

    @ Scot Finalyson @ 10.07am

    “Scotsman Politics
    · 15h
    SNP MPs have been branded ‘childish’ following reports they will ignore Westminster convention by refusing to applaud Theresa May after she makes her final appearance in the Commons as Prime Minister”.

    Hi Scot, tis better that they, the SNP MP’s, be principled than hypocritical …one wonders if those , in her own party, who sought her demise will applaud….now that is the REAL story…however for them, the media, it is expected that they will NEVER miss an opportunity for another SNPBAD story…pity then that it will backfire on the media and any Unionists who run with this….because for many members of the public…the SNP will be right to do this.

    Now is not the time to applaud a failure….as a leader…. and for our representatives, the SNP, a recognition that she and her party are the suppressors and removers of their country’s rights…..surely that should be the correct political ‘branding’ of their stance.

    It’s a circus….and the media like to play the clowns…as always.

  305. mike cassidy says:

    As the Jeff Epstein under-age sex abuse case starts to shake the tree in the USA

    Donald Trump on Jeff Epstein

    In 2002

    I’ve known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy….. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.


    I had a falling-out with him. I haven’t spoken to him in 15 years. I was not a fan of his — that I can tell you.

    Maybe Trump can only count to 15!

  306. Maria F says:

    Breeks says:
    “A Westminster Government which constructively supports Scottish Independence”

    Oh come on Breeks, you cannot possibly be serious on this.

    First of all “Westminter” will never support Scottish independence because “Westminster” as the parliament of the UK and government of the UK will cease to exist the minute Scotland dissolves the treaty. I cannot see “Westminster” constructively or otherwise supporting Scotland’s independence and supporting its own dissolution.

    The only way you can get a section of that institution to support independence is by doing what the SNP is doing: stopping the VIP taxdodgers, taxhavens, hedgefunds and banksters escaping EU tax dodging regulations. It would be wonderful if the EU started to demand implementation of those laws in the UK, if further delays happen after 31st October as that would make all those entities to support Scottish independence even more. Proof is in the pudding: you already have a supermajority of tory voters happy with Scotland’s independence if they get their brexit.

    I am sure you have worked out as I have that part of the appeal of a no deal brexit for a desperate English establishment that sees the writing in the wall of Scotland’s independence and the end of England sucking Scotland’s revenues is the fact that it will give it the narrow window of opportunity it needs to seize control over Holyrood and to change all the laws. We have heard several people from the EU that as Scotland already is part of the EU and follows EU rules, coming back in would be very easy. In my view, the no deal offers the opportunity for a desperate English establishment to change that. By seizing control of all or part of Holyrood powers, the English establishment can force Scotland to depart from EU standards and methods and make it really difficult and lengthy for Scotland to join back in. This, and not the trade, is in my opinion their ultimate weapon to keep Scotland trapped in the UK. I think the trade part of it is smoke and mirrors. If I did not misunderstood, indycar Ross has said in one of his videos that hundreds of our laws are already being taken away as we speak without anybody even mentioning it in the press or broadcasters.

    Let’s not kid ourselves here, Breeks nor start painting the really grey situation we are in into some sunny blue illusion. If the main concern of Westminster was ever to protect England’s trade with the EU it would have settled for remaining in the single market and customs union on day one. That will ensure trade remains as usual. But it did not. Not even Labour actually proposed to remain in the Single Market. Bizarrely, labour did not even support Ms Cherry’s proposal to stop a no deal on its tracks. Why? your opinion is as good as mine, but my opinion is because:
    1. Labour and tories are colluding in doing everything they can to use brexit to retain Scotland (and its assets) under England MP’s control. If no deal is the way forward, so be it.
    2. the VIP taxdodgers and tax havens “need” to escape EU tax avoidance regulations and would not do so if still in the SM and CU
    3. What Westminster really cares about is retaining England’s share of the market in Scotland, the benefits it currently enjoys thanks to its ginormous stake in Scotland’s economic activities and of course maintaining Scotland as a consumer to stop it competing with England both in the domestic and international markets. For this Westminster needs full control over Scotland’s trade deals/trade regulations/standards.

    Your proposal does not take any of that into account and that is why to me is neither credible nor feasible.

    “it’s a massive step forward for Scotland to sidestep an acrimonious divorce”
    Sorry, I completely disagree. I think it would be a stupid strategic mistake: if you offer to the English establishment the distal phalanx of your index finger, it will demand to take your whole arm because that is what it wants and feels entitled to it. Better not to offer anything.

    Acrimonious divorce? Why should it be? England gets its beloved brexit and its freedom to do trade deals with anybody it wants, its “sovereignty” back and Scotland its independence within the EU.

    What is acrimonious about that?

  307. geeo says:

    Maria F says:
    21 July, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    “And what do we get in return exactly”?

    Breeks response: “A Westminster Government which constructively supports Scottish Independence”

    Comedy Gold !!

    There is NO WM government of any make up which will EVER supports Scottish Independence in ANY way shape or form.

    What planet are you on ?

    Maria F is spot on, there is nothing in it for us.

  308. starlaw says:

    After the Tory cabinet race to resign I predict every Scottish Tory MP will have a seat on Boris’s first cabinet. As Mundell has a beard he should get to be Foreign Secretary enabling him to negotiate with Iran, and other Muslim countries. Having a beard will qualify him for this position.

  309. geeo says:

    Maria F@11.34am

    Another very good post.

  310. Capella says:

    @ Legerwood – I think you’re going to struggle with that argument on this site, dedicated as it is to analysis of the media. We’re all here because we see though the constant stream of propaganda broadcast by the MSM.

    Omitting our cultural heritage is just as damaging as flooding the airwaves of what are in reality the concerns of another country. The BBC expressly forbids writers to submit work describing our history and cultural heritage. “Outlander” could find no TV outlet in the UK – uniquely in the world.

    Why should Scots have to go to the library to find references to our own lived reality. All other countries have broadcasting services which beam out relevant drama, documentaries, news and current affairs, science and health, all day every day.

  311. Capella says:

    AND – I could have added sport. If Scottish people want to follow their football team in Scotland they have to listen to the radio! I remember my father used to listen to football on the radio – in the 1950s. We are stuck in post war conditions.

  312. CameronB Brodie says:

    British constitutional tradition holds Parliament to be sovereign, though Parliament also holds Scots to be individually sovereign (see the Claim of Rights). One of these constitutional positions must give, according to the full-English Brexit.

    So Proud Scot buts, still fancy living in Brexitania with no constitutional rights?

  313. kapelmeister says:

    A prime minister who in her thousand days in office proceeded to take Scotland forcefully out the EU, denied a Section 30 to give Scots a chance to stay in the EU and denied Scotland any chance at different arrangements with the EU post-brexit.

    A prime minister who grabbed devo powers returning from Brussels, tried repeatedly to humiliate and downgrade the office of First Minister and encouraged her other ministers to do the same. A prime minister who held a Burns Supper with Mundell at Downing Street to celebrate “the UK poet Robert Burns”.

    A prime minister whose government did nothing to alleviate Scotland’s drug problem but whipped up the press to blame the government in Scotland which doesn’t have the powers.

    A prime minister who completely bungled the brexit process yet kept Scotland from being part of any negotiations at Brussels. A prime minister who has now brought about a Boris Johnson premiership to misrule over Scotland. A prime minister whose administration deports good people continually from Scotland.

    And they’re claiming it’s childish not to applaud this cold and nasty and useless twit.

  314. Ghillie says:

    I thought clapping wasn’t allowed.

    Just as well cos we ain’t doing it for May.

    Maybe for good stuff though 🙂

  315. Ghillie says:

    Oh Capella, HOW things will change 🙂

  316. Legerwood says:

    Republicofscotland @ 10.44 am

    There was a time when History, and the time allowed to teaching it, was squeezed in the curriculum and what time that was allotted to it was determined in part by the Education Departments in the Local Councils.

    There was also a time – 1980s&’90s – when it was thought that teaching dates was not really necessary!! You then ended up with a generation or more who thought that the Vikings are the Dinosaurs! A friend’s daughter in the 1990s got Higher History, Grade A. WWI was her favourite topic. I asked what the dates were – silence.

    Things started to change after the SNP came to power and CfE was rolled out. Then Scottish History started to take a more defined place in the Curriculum.

    Yes the absence to any great degree of history programmes specifically about Scotland can have an effect as can the constant omission of Scotland’s role, and Wales and NI, in events both recent and historical can have an effect as Petra mentions upthread. But then the omissions become so blatant that it becomes counterproductive and sends people to look for the history. For example, constant omission of Scotland’s involvement in WWII in the recent spate of programmes. People know their fathers, grandfathers took part in the war so the omission becomes only too obvious and awakens their critical faculties – perhaps.

    At the end of the day people have different interests and will follow them sometimes to an exclusive degree. We are not all the same and what sparks our interests need not necessarily be something taught in a formal lesson or broadcast on TV. But in order to follow that interest then you need to be able to read a book or a screen and school teaches you that skill.

  317. galamcennalath says:

    Refuse to clap? They should go the full hog and sing ‘Ode to joy’. Get their best singing voices tuned up because they will need them to be heard above the baying of the BritNat cuddies and the Speaker’s chastisement.

    Seriously, what better way to mark the departure of such an odious enemy of Scotland?

    Yes minded Scots would love it and it might even bring a smile to the faces of Remainers everywhere.

  318. kapelmeister says:

    The SNP MPs could tie their hands before the end of May’s last PMQs to symbolise Scotland’s lack of freedom.

  319. CameronB Brodie says:

    One for folk living in Scotland but who don’t feel threatened by the full-English Brexit. Or let-down by Scotland’s ambivalent judiciary, who feel unmoved by the ongoing assault on the internal sovereignty and legal personality of all those living in Scotland. Remember, constitutional law sets the ground on which cultural boundaries are defended or challenged, and establishes the potential for the delivery of social justice.

    Persons and citizens in constitutional thought

    1. Persons or citizens: Aligned or opposing concepts?

    The ideas of citizenship and personhood have an ambiguous relationship in constitutional thought. Often, they are understood as aligned, even as identical. Claims for “equal citizenship” and “democratic citizenship” are, in effect, claims on behalf of the rights and recognition of individuals qua persons. American constitutional theorist Kenneth Karst made this presumed equivalence plain when he wrote that the principle of equal citizenship protects the “crucial interest in being treated by the society as a person, one who belongs.”1

    Frequently, though, citizenship and personhood are regarded as opposing concepts. Whereas citizenship references national belonging and its associated rights, personhood evokes the rights and dignity of individuals independent of national status. Personhood stands for the universal, in contrast to citizenship, which is ultimately exclusionary. The most well-known exponent of this view is Alexander Bickel, who eschewed a citizenship-centric constitutionalism on grounds it was “regressive” and “parochial”. He maintained that “the authentic voice of the American Constitution” finds expression through its protection of persons.2

    Much of the ambiguity of the personhood–citizenship relationship results from the multivalence of the idea of citizenship itself. Analytically, the term is used to indicate both relations among existing members of a political community and the process of constituting that community in the first place. Normatively, citizenship is understood as committed to universalism within the community, but in its community-constitutive mode, it is associated with bounded national commitments.

    Some citizenship proponents regard citizenship as a concept that seeks to mediate between universality and boundedness and, ultimately, to accommodate them; in this view, that is precisely citizenship’s function and its value. Citizenship is thus represented as personhood instantiated or concretized in a particular political community—as both the embodiment of the universal and as the framing precondition for it. The presumption is that universality and exclusion are complementary because they operate in distinct spheres, with universality the aspirational norm in the national “inside” and exclusivity confined to its outer edges. This “hard-outside–soft-inside” conception of citizenship is the essence of liberal nationalism.3

    In earlier work, however, I have shown that the accommodation of the universal and particular that citizenship purports to stand for is often unstable and internally contradictory. As a matter of fact, the border operates not just at the community’s edges but also in its interior, and structures relationships there. The category of alienage itself embodies this convergence of regulatory domains, and its management elicits endless jurisdictional disputes about which set of norms is supposed to govern in any given situation. Further, even where the more universalistic norms are formally deemed to apply, they are frequently undercut indirectly by the operation and effect of interiorized borders.

    In normative terms, I have also sought to challenge the exclusionary commitments associated with nationalist conceptions of citizenship. While I have suggested that the language of citizenship can be deployed “against itself” on behalf of the rights of noncitizens, this is, effectively, an argument on behalf of the rights of noncitizens qua persons.4 I have, in short, generally sided with Bickel in his preference for personhood over citizenship.

    In my current work, however, I am interested in thinking about constitutional personhood’s own hang-ups. In much the same way that the concept of citizenship has needed critical unpacking, personhood, as a preferred basis for constitutional subject status demands interrogation as well. Personhood raises as many questions as it answers, and in the context of constitutional thought, it promises much more than it can deliver. My purpose here is to sketch some directions for a critical reading of the idea of constitutional personhood. My focus is United States constitutionalism, but I will reference other constitutional systems, and many of the observations about the U.S. will be relevant to other constitutional contexts.

  320. galamcennalath says:

    Scottish history. I’ve said on here a few times that I learned quite a lot of relevant Scottish history in 1960s Ayrshire – primary, early secondary, and for my Ordinary Grade.

    I have always assumed teaching Scottish history was stopped when Labour had a grip on Scotland AND increased Scottish national self awareness with talk of independence became a threat to their UK.

  321. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Anent how best to see off the Maybot – except, she is going no further than the back benches, from whence she will surely nit-pick and criticise her successors for a while yet.

    Her salary might effectively halved when she leaves Number Ten, and she also loses the use of that “tied cottage,” but, she will continue to receive her MP’s salary of around £80,000 per year and, since her husband is a millionaire, and she will doubtless be invited to write her memoirs, and be eagerly sought to write columns for the likes of the Times, Telegraph, Mail and Express, she can easily make-up her salary shortfall.

    So, no tears for poor Theresa.

    I do, hope however, the SNP give her a standing ovation as she departs, indeed, Tartan Army-style, they should maybe all stand and sing: “Cheerio, Cheerio, Cheerio…..” as she departs after PMQs.

    After all, few have done more for the cause of Scottish Independence, and, by ensuring Boris’s progress to the topjob, she will have hastened the day when we can all loudly shout and celebrate: “FREEDOM!!!!!

  322. CameronB Brodie says:

    One for our ambivalent judiciary to mull over, perhaps. Or perhaps they are content with the practice of British constitutional law (see the full-English Brexit)? Gordon Brown? He hasn’t the character to admit he’s a fool.

    The moral distinctiveness of the European Union


    This article is a comment and reflection on Joseph Weiler’s essay, The Political and Legal Culture of European Integration: An Exploratory Essay. The article responds to Weiler’s argument by sketching a philosophical framework within which we may understand the moral distinctiveness of the EU. The argument is informed by the international political theories outlined by Kant and Rawls, according to which the domain of international institutions is distinct from that of domestic politics.

    If the European Union is an international project for the achievement of international and cosmopolitan objectives, then the virtues that it ought to promote are not those of the state. Instead, the relevant virtues are outward looking in that they require respect to other nations and citizens as equal members of the society of peoples.

    Issue Section:
    Symposium: The Changing Landscape of EU Constitutionalism

  323. Welsh Sion says:

    “Oh, wad some pow’r the Giftie gi’e us
    To see ourselves, as ithers see us!”

    Not really ‘us’, but still an intersesting perspective from our German friends about what is going to be unleashed on the Britishers. (Long article.)

  324. Breeks says:

    Maria F says:
    22 July, 2019 at 11:34 am
    Breeks says:
    “A Westminster Government which constructively supports Scottish Independence”

    Oh come on Breeks, you cannot possibly be serious on this.

    First of all “Westminter” will never support Scottish independence because “Westminster” as the parliament of the UK and government of the UK will cease to exist the minute Scotland dissolves the treaty. I cannot see “Westminster” constructively or otherwise supporting Scotland’s independence and supporting its own dissolution…

    The Tory membership don’t agree with you, and would already place Brexit ahead of the Union, and would proceed with Brexit even if it spelled the end of the Union.

    Once confronted with the unpalatable truth of a No Deal Brexit, and the pariah status associated with undermining the Irish Backstop, (and sanctions which in turn scupper any US Trade Deal), I think a more sober Tory/Brexit Party Government might easily be encouraged from resignation about “losing” Scotland, to cross the bridge and actually support Scotland’s exit from the UK, because I genuinely do believe it can help make their delusional Brexit actually workable and deliverable, rather than a decent into chaos and anarchy.

    Don’t forget too, once the Tories see through their own bluster and recognise the end of the Union is well within Scotland’s capacity to deliver, then their choice becomes a disintegrating Brexit with a disintegrating UK, with no Withdrawal Agreement, no implementation period, and no prospect of any Trade Agreements until the Irish Backstop has been resolved. …OR… A disintegrating Brexit and disintegrating UK which might however stop short of catastrophe if Brexit is truncated to exclude Scotland.

    And, for a price, (Indy by mutual agreement), Scotland provides a way to circumvent the Irish Backstop, avoid pariah / rogue nation status for England, and facilitate a new and alternative Withdrawal process for England (and Wales) alone, which permits the parallel negotiations of an Anglo-European Trade Agreement using an Indy Scotland as a buffer, and an Anglo-American Trade Agreement limited to Anglo-American interests only.

    Chlorinated chicken for England, yum yum, but don’t even think about sending that muck up to Scotland or deregulating ANY food processing which you intend trading with Europe. However, prove compliance with EU standards, (and ok the 4 Freedom’s need a bespoke arrangement to be negotiated), and you can export to Europe under a Scottish licence.

    I would accept that scenario is a long way from where we are… but we are already on a journey which will also terminate a long way from where we are now, and the destination looks bleak and dismal to say the least.

  325. Ealasaid says:

    Here is the latest broadcast by Indycar Gordon Ross.

  326. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic.
    Almost a year ago TO THE DAY Tommy Sheppard MP for Edinburgh East did his best to educate the House of Commons on the recent history of the Independence Movement in Scotland.

    If you’re in a hurry just scroll forward to 5:25

    Full length of speech is 19 minutes.

  327. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry for being a space-hog, but here’s an extract from the above, for those who don’t click links. In case folk haven’t clicked to the nature of the full-English Brexit yet, it unmasks Scotland’s vulnerability to populist English nationalism. Are Proud Scot buts happy with that? Remember, Euroscepticism is a central component of contemporary English nationalism, which is authoritarian, expansionist and xenophobic in nature. Scotland needs immigration and can’t afford the luxury of being exclusionary cultural chauvinists.

    The moral distinctiveness of the European Union

    2. Is the rule of law an ideal for the EU?

    Weiler correctly deflates current rhetoric and rejects any type of romanticism for the EU. But what is to replace it? Here, I think, there is an important ambiguity in Weiler’s essay, as indeed in much political commentary on the EU and its current troubles. Weiler insists that EU institutions suffer from the point of view of democratic legitimacy. He highlights, in particular, issues of “accountability” and “representation.”

    Yet, if the EU is not a state, why should it meet the standards of accountability and representation set for political institutions in a domestic context? If the EU is not a democratic state, there may not be a democratic deficit at all. Weiler seems to me uncertain about this point. He is committed to democracy and the rule of law as principles for the European Union, when he states that “a legal regime not validated in democratic practices would not qualify as a manifestation of the rule of law.”10 But how far are we to apply ideas of democracy to the EU? In his other writings, Weiler has suggested a rival view of the EU, a theoretical construct that goes beyond state institutions and recognizes the distinctiveness of the EU as a political project.11

    But what kind of political culture is appropriate to this new, sui generis model of institutions? Weiler laments the fact that “there is simply no moment in the civic calendar of Europe where the citizen can influence directly the outcome of any policy choice facing the Community and Union in the way that citizens can when choosing between parties which offer sharply distinct programs at the national level.”12 Still, why should there be such a moment, if the EU is not a state democracy?

    Weiler’s argument is not simply about abstract principles. It is also about “political culture,” which includes dispositions, beliefs, and attitudes. This is why he focuses on Europe’s failure in Bosnia and Kosovo.13 His argument is, perhaps, close to the somewhat narrower argument that George Kateb made about the ethical presuppositions as well as the effects of liberal democracy.14 Kateb argued that representative democracy has psychological effects on the whole society such that it helps liberate energies and a self-conception of persons, inspiring independence of mind and action.

    In that sense “the moral distinctiveness of the arrangements of representative democracy sponsors distinctive moral phenomena in the life of society.”15 Similarly, John Rawls argued that certain psychological attitudes make the just democratic state possible. He argued that “[w]e develop a desire to apply and to act upon the principles of justice once we realize how social arrangements answering to them have promoted our good and that of those with whom we are affiliated.”16 Rawls’s argument is both about the practical question of the stability of justice and about the potential value of these political virtues as ends in themselves. Weiler’s argument is directly analogous with these.

    It is not obvious, however, that the European Union must be compared to a scheme of a “representative democracy,” as in Kateb, or to “just institutions of social cooperation,” as in Rawls. Neil MacCormick reminded us in Questioning Sovereignty that the European Union should not be compared with the state and that it would be an error to do so.17 The EU was, he said, a constituted “commonwealth” that marked “post-sovereign” Europe. The whole point of MacCormick’s distinction was that the EU did not fit the sovereignty paradigm and was, instead, a mixed entity with a mixed constitution. The implications are quite significant:

    [T]he idea of a democratic commonwealth … is a complex not a simple one. Neither “rule by the people, for the people,” nor “majority rule” nor “one person, one vote” nor any other simple concept or slogan will capture it. The different aspects of the value of democracy need to be acknowledged, in their parallelism with different elements or aspects of subsidiarity. An enlightened bureaucracy … can also be seen to have an essential utility in a well-constituted order.18

    Weiler’s argument does not deal with MacCormick’s challenge and leaves open this possibility: if the European Union is not to be compared with the state, then it is not supposed to promote the political virtues, dispositions, and attitudes that the citizens of states normally have. There is no European “patriotism” at issue. And if it is not supposed to promote these political virtues and attitudes (because states alone are to promote them), then what is wrong with its currently bureaucratic or hierarchical institutions? After all, this is only an international project….

  328. kapelmeister says:

    The Herald reporting that former Tory cabinet ministers are saying Johnson was banned by Better Together from campaigning in indyref1 because they considered him too much of a liability.?

  329. schrodingers cat says:

    Re scots history

    it is the lack of investment by the establishment in scots history, which relegated it to a subject considered by many professionals as a backwater subject.

    I dont mean the high profile archeological digs or newly discovered documents which invariably get the most coverage, but the sometimes more mundane travailles of unsung heros that we are missing, eg, in the 50s, someone reviewed all of the potsherds of roman amphoria, cataloging them so today, we have reference material which enables us to accuratly date and locate them, sometimes even name the maker.

    in recent years, the biggest step forwards in early scottish history have been made by profs, woolf and fraser from st andrews uni. they identified the correct location of fortrenn/fortrui/waeteras and also disprove a much repeated piece of info about how the scots called the picts “Cruithne”
    this was how irish writers refered to all tribes living in the north of scotland, including those in the dalriada.
    this has opened an entire field of research

    woolf is currenntly working with irish historians concerning the similarity in the number of placenames in the area of NI marked by ptolemy as being the home of the Voluntii and the area the kingdom of fortrenn in scotland.

    i fully expect further research into the number of tribes in ulster also refered to by the irish scribes as Cruithne, and the number of placenames in scotland refered to in the irish book of invasions, eg the kingdom of the dog heads (cu sidh) Mannan, Fotla (atholl) Eru(earn) Bamba (banff) to name but a few

    The propensity for red heads in scotland and ulster is another clue that the present belief that when fergus mac Erc arrived with his followers in 500ad in argyll, they preceded to name all the places they found in scotland after irish pagan gods/goddesses.

    this is bollox

  330. Doug says:

    Just in case:

    “The good news for the SNP continues in YouGov’s latest Scottish subsample…

    SNP 42%, Labour 15%, Conservatives 13%, Brexit Party 10%, Liberal Democrats 10%, Greens 7%”

  331. Maria F says:

    Breeks says:

    “The Tory membership don’t agree with you, and would already place Brexit ahead of the Union, and would proceed with Brexit even if it spelled the end of the Union”

    The tory membership is one thing, Breeks. The English establishment which will make use of that vote and use it as an excuse to implement something unpalatable, exactly as they did make use of England and Wales’ brexit vote to trigger A50 without Scotland’s consent, to drag us out of the single market and customs union without mandate and to seize control of Holyrood’s powers, is an entire different animal.

    If Westminster was really concerned for what tory voters really want, then the day after the EU referendum, when it was crystal clear that no consensus would be found among the nations of the UK regarding Brexit, that same Westminster would have called a referendum in England and Wales to determine if their voters rather remain in the EU to preserve the UK or instead would dissolve the UK to leave the EU.

    Did you see any movement in this direction to accelerate the exit of England and Wales on their own from the EU to completely stop the process of brexit for the whole UK? No. What you see and have seen since then is a movement in the exact opposite direction: they are running a mile from that referendum in England and Wales prospect by throwing the hot potato of the constitutional issue into Scotland’s hands so Scotland, which is precisely the only partner of the UK that did not vote against the status quo and has the less population and less power in the UK (and whose referendums are easier to manipulate by having a batallion of UK civil servants sticking their noses right in) has to make the opposite decision to what England and Wales should be deciding, that of leaving the EU to preserve the UK or dissolving the UK to remain in the EU. In other words, once again, a spineless Westminster is getting Scotland to do the dirty work for the Kingdom of England.

    If the tory voters had the opportunity to decide if the union should continue, it would not have lasted 300 years. So why haven’t they been asked before? From where I am standing, that strategic and calculated cowardice by the English establishment tells you all what you need to know of just how desperate this English establishment is to keep the union at all costs, a union that as you very well say, would be over in a heartbeat should England’s tory voters be given the opportunity to decide.

    Boris is an incredibly unpalatable individual as PM. It is probably the worst possible choice, but he is also the most easily disposable asset: the English establishment just need to rummage a bit in his extensive baggage of flippant comments and unreputable actions and interventions and you would be spoiled for choice if you needed to evict the buffoon on a hurry. Do you seriously think he will be PM just because the tory members say so? Not a chance. It was decided by whoever is controlling the tory party that Johnson will be the scapegoat who drives the UK over the cliff and disposed of quickly. The vote of the tory members will be used simply to justify putting this buffoon as PM.

    “Once confronted with the unpalatable truth of a No Deal Brexit, and the pariah status associated with undermining the Irish Backstop, I think a more sober Tory/Brexit Party Government might easily be encouraged from resignation about “losing” Scotland, to cross the bridge and actually support Scotland’s exit from the UK”

    I think you are dreaming, Breeks. I am afraid I disagree with this too, Breeks. No deal brexit is what the VIP taxdodgers and foreign neocon fatcats that are controlling the strings of the ERG and brextremist tories (under any rosette colour) have been pursuing all along. If that was not the case you would have never had tories working behind closed doors with American Think thanks for years designing a UK-USA trade deal whose main foundation is the departure from the EU’s standards.

    As for the Irish Backstop, didn’t it ever cross your mind that the real objective here of the English establishment is forcing NI to have that reunification so the headache of the backstop goes away? What resources is NI bringing to the pockets of the English establishment? Now compare it with what Scotland is bringing. What do you see? Do you seriously think that Westminster will ever put keeping NI in the uK before keeping Scotland’s resources under its control? I think you need to give this another thought, Breeks. From where I am standing it very much looks like Westminster is throwing NI under a bus and it is doing it on purpose to force that reunification process.

    “once the Tories see through their own bluster and recognise the end of the Union is well within Scotland’s capacity to deliver, then their choice becomes…”

    I think you are seriously underestimating the tories, Breeks. The tories saw right through their own bluster the day the polls in Scotland in 2014 gave an advantage to YES. All what they have done ever since and all what they continue doing is nothing other than an attempt to damage limitation and to keep their “union” from collapsing. Even, in my opinion, the EU referendum was somehow a damage limitation exercise: Brexit was as much a tool to get the taxhavens to avoid EU regulations as it was the perfect excuse to seize back the powers from Holyrood and stall Scotland’s independence and potential to pass an Act in that parliament to dissolve the treaty. It is my cynical view that the same day they agreed to bring to Scotland those powers to fulfill the “vow”, they were already planning how to get those powers and many more back.

    The tories knew that brexit would be a battle they would not win in Scotland: every poll since 2010 shows that. That is why the flip flopping liar Davidson, Vote no Borders and Better Together, all colluded on the very same day to tell us that to retain our EU citizenship rights we had to vote to remain in the UK. They knew that should the people of Scotland know for a fact that brexit was behind the corner and Scotland independence would have won.

    The tories know exactly what they are doing, breeks. They know remaining in the EU is what will help the independence vote to go over the line. So what they are trying to do is to take that option away from the negotiating table. Without the prospect of a quick return to the EU, they have a more balanced fighting field and bigger chance to retain Scotland in the union. That is what they are worried about and that is why they are pusuing no deal.

    As I said above, should they actually worry about trade and they would have arranged for the UK to remain in the single market and customs union. They are heading in the opposite direction which will harm England. What is more worthy than England’s economy? the union and retaining Scotland’s assets – they can only do this by neutering Holyrood and changing all the laws and regulations so Scotland cannot go back into the EU easily, so then they can claim that is best for Scotland to remain in the UK that to go completely on its own. This is their last chance to stall Scotland’s independence while still keeping the pretence of being a democracy.

    “And, for a price, (Indy by mutual agreement), Scotland provides a way to circumvent the Irish Backstop, avoid pariah / rogue nation status for England…”
    The Irish Backstop can be circumvent TODAY by:
    1. English gov accepting for the whole UK to remain in the single market and customs union
    2. The people of NI demanding another referendum for reunification, which the can as stated in the GFA.

    So why should Scotland do the work for the English gov and NI? They can stand on their own two feet and do their ow work. Scotland is not their maid to having to clean up their mess.

    With regards of England to become a rogue nation, again, it is in the hands of England TODAY to not become a rogue nation tomorrow. It only has to accept to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. It is not Scotland’s job to save England from itself. At some point England is going to have to wake up and smell the coffee that has been brewing for some time: the empire and using everybody else as a dominion is over. Whenever it does wake up, is its choice. I see as inappropriate for Scotland to interfere in England’s business as I see inappropriate for England MPs to stick their unwanted noses in Scotland’s business.

    “and facilitate a new and alternative Withdrawal process for England (and Wales) alone, which permits the parallel negotiations of an Anglo-European Trade Agreement using an Indy Scotland as a buffer, and an Anglo-American Trade Agreement limited to Anglo-American interests only”
    I don’t like the sound of any of this, actually. “Facilitate”. Why should Scotland “facilitate” anything? What is England facilitating to us? What has it facilitated to Scotland in the last 300 years?
    “using Indy Scotland as a buffer”???? So, again, the kingdom of England will be using Scotland to its own advantage only as it has been doing for the last 300 years. No, sorry. With Scotland’s independence the idea that Scotland is in the map just for England to use as an stepping stone to replenish fuel, to access other markets and glory is over.
    “Anglo-American agreement”? What nonsense!! A Scotland in the EU will operate and benefit from the EU trade agreements. We don’t need extra agreements on the side with England or USA. The EU will make the agreements.

    “Chlorinated chicken for England, yum yum”
    their choice. Decreasing the standards of their food cannot be taken lightly. They cannot choose to decrease those standards and then hope to use Scotland to shift their crap to the EU compromising our own reputation, our own food industry, our own market share and prospects of growth in domestic and EU markets taking over part of the vacuum that will be left when England products leave those markets. NO, sorry. If England chooses to decrease its standards, an independent Scotland in the EU should protect its own produce, its own industry, its own markets and those of the EU and simply close the border and band the passing of those produce throughout its territory. It is England’s choice to decrease the standards therefore it is up to England to face the risks of such choice and suffer the consequences. An independent Scotland does not longer have to “share” the cost of England’s ill advised decisions. Upon independence, the kingdom of England will be on its own and that is for as long as Wales chooses to remain in it. After Wales leaves, it will be England on its own.

  332. Lenny Hartley says:

    galamcennalath My Historical skooling in Arran in the sixties was in the main to do with Scots History, at primary skool we were very well versed in the heroics of Wallace and Bruce. We also spent a lot of time Scottish Country Dancing and Singing Gaelic . Mind you our Headie a Mr Mathison who I heard several years ago was related to Karen Mathison of Capercaille fame used to fly the Saltire from the Skool house on elections days when the Skool was used as a polling statio, Secondary education at Arran High was probably more National Curriculum , but still plenty of Scots History.

  333. call me dave says:

    Prof Curtis and some graphs (no SNP) but they are given a mention in dispatches mainly because…well in Scotland you know. 🙂

    Graphs go if archived so…

    Who would win if a general election were held now?

  334. Alastair says:

    When the Joke becomes reality.
    Johnson or Hunt
    The Evil of two lessors.

  335. Welsh Sion says:

    Count yourself b—y lucky, callmedave @ 3.33pm! WEG

    My *other* national Party doesn’t figure at all. Because, you know … Wales. Where’s that?

  336. call me dave says:

    Welsh Sion

    Sorry mate! 🙁

    But!…but you’ve still got the rugby and Connah’s Quay Nomads!


  337. Welsh Sion says:

    SINGS (off key):

    There’ll always be Connahs Quay Nomads
    And the Quay it shall be free
    If the Nomads means as much to you
    As the Nomads mean to me.

    Glances @ callmedave with his fingers in his ears …

  338. call me dave says:

    Skool Fife: History the horrors of WWI last year at primary!

    More WWI and King Malcolm & Queen (St) Margaret Dunfermline and for some reason Burke & Hare

    Then industrial stuff Weaving and Linen, railways and steam Scottish medicine Lister, Fleming and Lighthouses built by the Stevenson family.

    It was just one bloody thing after another…:-)

  339. Lenny Hartley says:

    Call me Dave yup we got Burke and Hare at secondry as well 🙂 and a lot of livingstone and somebody from the borders who wrote about a guy called Hyde.

  340. Capella says:

    Lib Dems about to announce the winner of their leadership contest. The BBC have certainly pushed Swinson to win. If she does, I think it shows the Establishment nervousness about the SNP and Independence.

  341. Welsh Sion says:

    sWINson wins …

  342. frogesque says:

    Is it Swinson or the other one? It will save me hours of dribble listening to news tonight.

    Stop Press. Herself has just told me its Swinson.

    Bojo tomorrow then.

  343. Capella says:

    Today Swinson, tomorrow Johnston, boak. Rumour has it that Johnson wants Priti Patel to be Home Secretary – triple boak.

  344. Welsh Sion says:

    Sir Ed Davey received 28,021 votes, but Ms Swinson got over 47,000.

    76,429 votes cast (out of a possible 106,075).

    Already, BBC reveal their biases and the conflating of England and Britain.

    “She becomes the first woman to lead the party in its 31-year history.”

    Wales has had female leaders of the Lib Dems previously (Kirsty Williams AM – currently Education Minister and sole Welsh Lib Dem AM), and the current Leader of the Welsh Lib Dems is also female. (Their candidate in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election, Jane Dodds, elected in 2017).

  345. frogesque says:

    @Call me Dave: 4.09

    Was the “Lochgelly” also taught in your school?

  346. Doug says:

    Being a rabid British nationalist Swinson will be unable to contain her anti-Scottish attitude. She’ll sicken even more people in Scotland now she’s leader. The bbc will help her in that.

  347. call me dave says:


    Aye with aplomb! 🙁

    A set of retired WWII ex-forces wielded the Lochgelly on a daily basis…just for fun and because.

    Best teacher was a young…often looked oot the window …Ach! Ten minutes later cricket bats and stumps and teaching us to bat and bowl…great! ( The kit was all his)

    Science.. boys only…Jings!

    Thank goodness for the Technical college! 🙂

  348. Famous15 says:

    Jo reckons that the door to no10 beckons.

    Whisper it but she will have to get rid of English Votes for English Laws first.

    Not really difficult for someone who out Toried the Tory Party in coalition.

  349. kapelmeister says:

    Swinson appears to be suffering from a big dose of Ally McLeod style over-optimism. Claims she’s a candidate for PM before she’s even done a day’s work as Lib Dem leader.

  350. Meindevon says:

    @ Famous15. Yes I’ve been wondering about how EVEL will affect Swinson.

    Surely a Scottish seat will rule her out of being PM? (I know haha) And her Scottish seat is on a shoogly peg too.

    Sounds like she’ll be having a parachute strapped on soon and sent to a seat quit possibly near me. Still she can work on her new accent better.

  351. Welsh Sion says:

    Congratulations to @joswinson on her election as leader of the @LibDems, the most Pro-European party in British politics!

    – Tweet from Guy Verhofstadt

    Seems Guy’s already forgotten about you in Scotland. Beware of fair-weather friends.

  352. Petra I am also fed up with English people having so many top jobs in Scotland and having a vote in Scotland’s future it should not be allowed there should be no such thing as an incoming worker while local people are unemployed I mean look at the obvious bias these English people have towards Scotland Curtice for example not a good word to say about Scotland yet him and his like get to vote on our future no sane country would allow them a vote after all it is not their country

  353. geeo says:

    Will Swinson get around the EVEL problematic barrier to being PM since she is technically only carpetbagging in East Renfrewshire, and actually is registered as living in dear old blighty ?

    Or did she move up here to live in her constituency?

    Almost worth them winning at WM to laugh like hyenas at her barring from office !!

  354. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Corbyn, British Nationalist Labour Party

    Swinson, British Nationalist FibDems

    FaRadge (no typo), English Nationalist Brexit Party

    BoJo or Hunt (really doesn’t matter which), One Nation Neo-Facist British Nationalist Party

    If we can’t get Independence with these Charlatans leading the BritNat Parties then we don’t deserve it.

  355. Footsoldier says:

    All sectors of the independence movement need to up their game BIG TIME!

  356. HandandShrimp says:

    Patel is a challenging individual on the extreme right of the Tory Party. If Boris is contemplating Patel for Home Secretary then he clearly intends a very bumpy ride for the country (with the whole country stuck on a zip wire waving union jokes).

  357. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker @ 07:23,

    Yes, that’s about the long and the short of it.

    I suppose it will give the Remainers across the UK some further temporary false hope that this (never-coming) PV will save their day. But after all her empty-headed media waffling, the disillusionment will only be the stronger.

    Fortuna is a fickle deity. The more exposure for Swinson, the faster the public realisation will dawn that she’s just as much of a straw creature as Davidson.

  358. Robert Louis says:

    Whilst the subject of the cartoon is ‘faithful toadies’, the Libdems have just made lying charade, careerist idiot, Jo Swinson as their leader. Apparently, she won’t do a deal with any other political party….except the Tories.

    Just a wee reminder, her husband was parliamentary private secretary to careerist Liar Nick Clegg, when he was deputy PM in David Cameron’s Tory Government. I think that informs matters somewhat.

    Ahhh… the Libdem party. Lots of principles, but will do anything for a ministerial mondeo. Prostituting themselves, for the Tories at the drop of a hat, you might say, they are the political whores of Westminster.

    Who needs principles when you have the Libdems. They come from the marxist school of thought, Groucho Marx..‘Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them…well , I have others.

  359. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Louis @ 18:26,

    Yes, RL, there are willing toadies elsewhere than that pathetic bunch in the Tory Party. Peculiar indeed that Swinson could never co-operate with a Labour Party led by Corbyn, but apparently has no qualms whatever cosying-up to a Tory Party led (as likely) by Johnston.

    Seems she at least has learnt nothing from the disastrous Clegg period.

    There are surely a lot of ordinary people in England who are soon going to be served-up with a new round of bitter disappointment. Thankfully we have a very fine antidote.

  360. Hamish100 says:


    Scotland as part of U.K. Can be taken into armed conflict against our wishes.

    Scotland as part of the EU cannot.

    Scotland as part of U.K. Is forced to have nuclear weapons able to kill millions if not billions.

    Scotland as part of the EU cannot be forced to have nuclear weapons wasting billions£ and making us less safe

  361. uno mas says:

    So Jo (“Say It Aint So”) Swinson just got the job as head of SNP and Independence Bashers (Scotland Branch), bet the Davidson household isn´t a happy place tonight.

    Tell you what campers you always know when the British establishement thinks it´s in trouble, they re-invent the Liberals.

    They must have decided that the lies she has told in the past were more spinaable than the lies of truthless.

    We´ll see how that goes for them!

    Speaking of campers but is it just me or when sayitaintso is wearing the full yellow jacket and stud earings ensemble she looks like she´s an escapee from Joe Maplin´s

    Hi! De! Hi! campers.

    Waits for response………………

  362. Hamish100 says:

    Iran 2

    As the RN has 1 boat in the Gulf would it have been a good idea to have more ships built in 2014 as promised by Brown, Curran, Davidson, Rennie, Cameron , GMB, UNITE……….oops

    Any shipyards on the Clyde available!!!

  363. Effijy says:

    Jolly Hockey sticks Swan Song. FFS.

    You could walk into any UK bar and find 3 people
    More capable of running the country than Bojo the Clown
    Jolly Hockey sticks Swansong or Confused Corbyn.

    The Three Stooges controlling a catastrophic future for Scotland.

  364. msean says:

    Re this being childish for not applauding the PM on her last day on the job,they should have said “now is not the time”.

  365. Scott says:

    – “Twitter trolls, fake news, demonising journalists – we saw it in Scotland first”

    This from the liar Swineson who lied about the Kids in Govan.

    See how I have spelt the name wrong or have I??

    RE May and clapping what they should do is turn their backs on her.

  366. Phil says:

    Hamish100 @ 19:06 is q

  367. frogesque says:

    Stuff flying about Facebook like turds from a muckspreader.

    WTF is going on with AUOB and the exec?

    Its almost as if somebody somewhere wants to stop the rallys

  368. Sinky says:

    For those who missed Rev Stu’s tweet earlier today,

    Worth a read but don’t expect the Unionist rags to publicise this correction to their false claims that Scotland has an Income Tax shortfall of £1bn.

  369. cynicalHighlander says:


  370. Sinky says:

    More on Jo Swinson:

    Dispite saying she’s against fracking. Swinson accepted a £10,000 donation from Mark Petterson in July 2017 and another £4000 in January.

    Swinson, who as Employment Minister in the 2010-2015 Conservative-Liberal coalition government opposed legally enforceable gender quotas and was supportive of zero hour contacts,

    Jo Swinson voted in favour of repeated Tory austerity budgets, tuition fees, the bedroom tax, the welfare cap, not excluding child benefit from the welfare cap, privatising Royal Mail, and cutting disability payments

    Iain Macwhirter has tweeted Breathtaking hypocrisy from Swinson. When Scotland was engaged in that much-celebrated exercise in participative democracy, where were the LibDems? In government with the Tories, supporting austerity and breaking promises on tuition fees. Harsh? Hostile?

    As for decency in policies what does Swinson say about the Lib Dem leaflets in Edinburgh West in 2016 and 2017 when they resorted to gutter style campaigning about Michelle Thomson and the SNP.

  371. Most telling statement of the day which was tucked away at a ridiculously early time this morning on BBC R4

    The EU has prepared a rescue package of millions of Euros for the Republic of Ireland to help it survive the financial problems a ‘No-Deal’ Brexit will cause.
    Think it was also reported in the Times and the Daily Heil.

  372. Petra says:

    ‘New ructions as AUOB is rocked by sacking of director Manny Singh.’

    …”A statement was issued on behalf of AUOB’s national executive last night. It read: “The National Executive of All Under One Banner (AUOB) today, 21st July 2019, engaged in what we hoped would be a fair and transparent conduct hearing for Mr Mandeep Singh so as to resolve all current issues … 14 of the 18 official AUOB National executive members who were present unanimously voted to dismiss Mr Singh with immediate effect from the organisation All Under One Banner.”…


    ‘Mhairi Black calls on new LibDem leader Jo Swinson to apologise.’

    ..”Responding to the result of the contest, Mhairi Black pointed to Swinson’s worrying record in coalition government with the Tories. The SNP MP said: “Jo Swinson was one of the most enthusiastic cheerleaders for the Tory coalition government. She must move quickly to apologise for the devastating cuts she imposed, and rule out any future Tory pact – if she wants anyone to believe the LibDems have changed their ways.

    People haven’t forgotten that it was the LibDems who trebled university tuition fees to £9,000 a year, scrapped the Education Maintenance Allowance, introduced the bedroom tax, imposed the cap on public sector pay, and the damaging cuts to social security for disabled people. While the SNP has consistently opposed Tory cuts, the LibDems enabled the worst of them – pushing millions of people into poverty and inequality, and forcing families to rely on food banks and emergency aid to feed their children.”…

  373. Petra says:

    ‘Boris Johnson to launch ‘charm offensive’ to save Union.’

    …It’s expected that a visit to Scotland to promote the Union would likely take place next week or over the weekend.”…

    ..”Plans to counter growing support for independence in Scotland include setting up a Union Unit, increasing ministerial resources to the Scotland Office and circumventing the elected Scottish Government by directly funding projects in Scotland.

    He also plans to add the words “Minister for the Union” to his prime ministerial title.”..

  374. Golfnut says:


    A ‘charm ‘ offensive which includes circumventing the democratically elected Government in Scotland. Sounds as if it came right out of the ‘hearts and minds’ handbook.

  375. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I understand Jo Swinson lives in Wiltshire. Can anybody confirm this?

  376. Meindevon says:

    Dave @10.41

    Yes I’ve heard that too. Haven’t seen proof, although the disappearing quick Scottish accent might be bit of a giveaway.

  377. doug_bryce says:

    Interesting Scottish court case next week aims to make it legally impossible for Boris Johnson to suspend parliament.

    Legal team has winning form. Joanna Cherry (SNP) a very astute QC backed by sharp legal team.
    Previously forced UK government, against their wishes, to confirm with ECJ it does have power to unilaterally revoke Article 50.
    UK government may lose a second case in Edinburgh under Scots law ? wink

    Oddly its a headline on the Scottish section of BBC. But not yet UK wide.

  378. Famous15 says:

    “Hi De Hi” ?

    JO DE JO

    Comedians all.

  379. Dr Jim says:

    Jo Swinson new Lib Dem liar in chief

    Chippenham Wiltshire with her husband Duncan Hames direcor of policy at Transparancy International UK previously Lib Dem MP for Chippenham and parliamentary private secretary to Nick Clegg when he was deputy Prime Minister

    Carrer Politicians are like a disease ridden colony all living together for fear of catching any infection from actual real people until they are forced to go amongst them for vote collection

    They see themselves as Politician Sans Frontiers, except they steal instead of heal

  380. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi frogesque at 9:36 pm.

    You typed,
    “Stuff flying about Facebook like turds from a muckspreader.
    WTF is going on with AUOB and the exec?
    Its almost as if somebody somewhere wants to stop the rallys”

    As a volunteer on the WOS stall over the past 5 years, I can confirm that Ronnie Anderson, who was originally involved in the initial organisation of AUOB, had a suspicion that cash from the donation buckets was being misappropriated by individuals.

    That was one of the reasons he ceased involvement with AUOB.

    The WOS stall has only once “donated” any cash to AUOB – all the profits have gone to good causes; Maryhill foodbank, Taught By Muhammed foodbank (Dundee), iScot, WGD, and so on.

    My own opinion is that certain individuals within AUOB have thought themselves untouchable and that mistaken belief is now coming home to roost.

    Watch Broadcasting Scotland tomorrow evening at 7.

  381. cynicalHighlander says:

    There are bad apples in every barrel!

  382. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 22:41,

    No longer, it would appear. According to coverage of the English local elections in April by the Wiltshire Times:

    Her husband Duncan Hames held the [local] seat for the LibDems from 2010-2015, when he lost to Conservative Michelle Donelan and gave up active politics. She said: “It’s always lovely being back in Wiltshire, I have many very happy memories here with Duncan and when my son Andrew was born.”

    So maybe she moved back to Milngavie. (Don’t MPs have to have a residence in the constituency anyway?) But my guess she has to have some kind of pad – even family home, perhaps – in London. Where all the action for an up-and-coming Great Leaderene is, doncha know? =grin=

    But other than that negative, it’s all guesswork on my part, alas. Wish I could help more.

  383. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: Swinson.

    This sums up the tectonic shift at Plantation Quay. (From “david” on Twitter.)

  384. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Brian Doonthetoon at 11,47

    Was thinking the same myself.

  385. Clapper57 says:

    My God …five minutes in the role…and the remainers are falling over themselves over Jo…desperate times call for desperate political choices….”your our only hope” Obi wan Swinson.

    Funny how her voting record as part of Tory coalition is so easily forgotten and forgiven by these remainers…soon they will all be repeating the misinformation ….that the Lib Dems are the only real Remain party in the UK….mind you if you live darn sarf you might play along with any old fake news just to get a glimmer of hope that you might remain in EU….after all what other alternative do you have if you live darn sarf other than Jo S the Remainer warrior queen ..Labour are missing in total inaction….their position on Brexit is still an enigma…so much so even they themselves cannot decipher their own message on Brexit…..yeah but no but yeah.

    The Tories are morphing into a mini me Brexit party and their remainer MP’s are the minority within the party….the Greens are unable to muster any majority of support to be credible as a party who could win power…irrespective of their remain credentials….and well the SNP are tolerated by remainers darn sarf if , and only if, they play nicely and help the REAL parties at WM to try and get another EU Ref…..but they are not worth any other support cause only us Scots, in Scottish constituencies, can vote for them as MP’s….Jo is an MP in a Scottish constituency too but she is seen as ‘one of them’ as she’s a Unionist who wants to play in WM….so hey exceptions and all that.

    Personally I think she lacks the gravitas ,strength and character to be a political party leader……she tends to resort to whiny indignation and unnecessary rancour. This is her weakness and will be her downfall in Scotland because she will fall into the trap, like many before her, of obsessing more about the SNP than promoting a positive message for her own party….they just cannot help themselves…expecting us Scots to believe no appetite for second Indy Ref while obsessing about not ‘allowing’ us to have one….a position that makes no sense other than in the head of a Unionist who knows the game is up for their beloved Union.

    I mean how many of us one here predicted that she would be presented as the new saviour of the Union and a worthy champion for remain…as Ruth descends it follows that Jo must ascend to the giddy height of ?….well what height will she rise to ?…..come Tory leader result today she will be but a memory ….temporarily forgotten while much is said about Bojo as PM….then they , the media, will, at opportune moments, present her once again as the politician UKOK needs to fight for the centre ground…remainers…Unionists….and any other made up shit they can concoct to further con the conned into believing what really should be unbelievable.

    I pity the remain fools who will fall for her ‘I am your saviour from Brexit’ routine…she’s a careerist and we all know what their priorities are…..this will not end well…place your bets on how long it takes for the wool to be removed from the Jo Swinson fanclub’s eyes….lib dems…they always let you down…eventually…it’s in their DNA.. Lol

  386. Ghillie says:

    Hmm. I wonder how oor Rev feels about this Jo Swinson leading the only party he feels he can vote for in England?

    Now is it time to come home?

  387. Breeks says:

    She wants a statue of Thatcher. That’s all anybody requires to know about Swinson.

    I wonder how she feels about the statue of Butcher Cumberland in Sutherland.

  388. Sinky says:

    OMG letters page in Scotsman today is full on Daily Mail bile towards SNP. They must be worried about the Boris effect on independence support.

  389. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Politician Sans Frontiers, except they steal instead of heal”

    An absolute classic @Dr Jim says at 11:18 pm


  390. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Funny how her voting record as part of Tory coalition is so easily forgotten and forgiven by these remainers…”

    This is great news @Clapper57 says at 2:37 am

    It is empirical evidence that EU Trumps UK Politics for many.

    Some will hold their noses and vote for Scottish Independence despite that EssEmmPee to remain EU Citizens.

  391. Abulhaq says:

    Let Johnson and company do what the hell they like with the Westminster parliament and Brexit. We do need to stop caring about matters that essentially are not core to us or to our cause. Stop thinking so British, kick it out of our space.

  392. Bobp says:

    Breeks 5.44am. I didnt know there was a statue to the ‘butcher’ in sutherland. At least the Irish had the guts to get rid of the statue of Nelson in O’connell st.

  393. Dorothy Devine says:

    Lying Liberal Leaders – is that all they do?

    Having cosied up to Labour in Scotland then swapped beds in Westminster to snuggle up to the Tories , now saying what exactly?

    ‘Statue to Maggie Muppet’ now the leader

    BBBC Scotland will now be indulging their 3nd prize as their 1st and second ones didn’t quite work out so well , despite their best efforts.

    I look forward to Ms Swinsons ‘Murphy Moment”

    I look

  394. Ken500 says:

    The Scotsman has hardly any readers in Scotland. A few thousand. It is probably Independence supporters checking out the opposition nonsense. Do not give them oxygen keeping it afloat. Totally in debt Johnston Press is now ripping off it’s pensioners. The pension fund deficient. Criminal.

    Pompo says Britain should look after it’s own ships. Johnston will have to fend for himself. All support depleting. He will not last until October, The ‘special’ relationship is broken. So are the Tories. They could not make a bigger mess. What a complete and utter shambles. The Tories into oblivion. Another one down, another one gone. Another one hits the dust.

    Brown, Clegg and Cameron voted out. The promises reneged upon. The pigs at the trough. Tax evading public money. Cable gone. Why would anyone in Scotland vote for Swindon. The next cabel steps in. Another bunch of unionist troughers.

    Churchill took all Iran’s oil in the 1950’s. The West has been taking it ever since, putting in sanctions to ruin the economy. Then complaining about the system and structure of society. The West supported Iraq in the Iraq/Iran war ruining the economy. Reneged on democracy in the Middle East. Re imposed the decadent Shah etc.

    Britain and France (US commercial interests) carved up the Middle East. The secret Balfour Agreement caused even more trouble and bloodshed. The Iraq War kept secret for 100 years. Brown, Clegg and Cameron caused all this mess. The Brexit shambles. Now voted out but still complaining.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence for a better world.

    Jim Radcliffe Ineos responsible for 1/3 of all emissions in Scotland. 30%.? Importing fracked Gas from the US. Now off to Monaco to evade tax worldwide. Scotland increased renewable production. Still low emissions in the change over. Scotland surplus in fuel and energy. Self sufficient. Without Westminster imbecile interference.

  395. Ken500 says:

    Aberdeen CC a total disgrace. Con/Labour minority. A LibDem declared Independence on being ejected to keep this corrupt cabal in place. An absolute disgrace. The SNP have the largest number of councillors, yet are kept out of power. This illegal Unionist Alliance has destroyed the City Centre. Wasting money like there is no tomorrow, £Millions in debt, A two job Tory keeping the corrupt regime in power. Just after what they can get. Building a grotesque monstrosity. No one wanted. People wanted pedestrianisation and open spaces.

    £200Million++ wasted. £1/2Billion+ Building shops, offices and under occupied hotels sitting empty. An absolute scandal. The UTG project would have cost £20Million. The green opposition put pay to that, Not supporting education and essential services. Schools over crowded and teachers short.

    Spending £300Million on a Conference Centre sitting empty costing monies on upkeep. No business case or population base. A total waste of £Million/Billion of public money which could be better spent. A renege LibDem and a Tory. The illegal Unionist Alliance Party which does not exist and is not on the ballot papers. Not registered on any political system. The unionist cabal. Unfair advantage not following political (party) rules. Illegally breaking political procedure and protocol.

    Just like Westminster corruption. Reneging on all manifesto promises. Cameron elected to protect NHS abd Clegg Education. Lied reneged and caused Brexit. Illegal funding. Illegal, promises and breaking all the Electoral rules. Johnston unelected by the UK public. Another stitch up of corruption. A disaster waiting to happen. What a complete and utter mess.

  396. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Breeks, Bobp, the statue in Sutherland isnt Cumberland, It is the duke of Sutherland. Plenty of blood on his hands as well though, with his part in the clearances.

  397. hackalumpoff says:

    Good morning, see Nana’s links here:

  398. Heart of Galloway says:

    There is no such statue.
    There is however a statue of the Duke of Sutherland above Golspie.
    The fine duke was most enthusiastic in forcibly evicting people from the land during the Highland Clearances.
    Attempts to blow up his stone image have been made several times.

  399. Ken500 says:

    Swinson will have to get a seat down south or get voted out in Scotland. Another one gone, another one down. Another one hits the dust. Tavish Scott gone to rugby. Findlay going. Dugdale gone. The message is getting out. Scotland soon will be Independent, in the EU, The tide is turning.

    Imagine Johnston’s reception in Scotland, if he lasts that long. Like Farague not appreciated. The Brexit total farce.

  400. Martin says:

    At next general election we likely have BoJo defending his position as PM against Jeremy Corbyn and Jo Swinson. One of these challengers is not eligible to be PM thanks to EVEL, the other is as popular as a fart in a lift.

    Isn’t it just so GREAT to be part of the UK?

  401. galamcennalath says:

    Swinson will probably feature significantly in BetterTogetherToo.

    No principles, poor voting records, and thick as mince …. perfect for the role.

  402. stu mac says:

    Several posters have between them already covered a good deal of what’s here but it’s worth showing we’re not the only ones who see through Swinson:

  403. Clapper57 says:

    @ Martin at 8.56am

    “Isn’t it just so GREAT to be ‘part’ of the UK?”

    Hi Martin…soon it will be even GREATER when we are actually finally ‘Apart’….from the rest of the UK…Lol.

  404. Scott says:

    RE the Duke of Sutherland.
    Many people want the statue to stay there as it is a reminder of the clearances and to blow it up would be wrong.Holiday makers who don’t know much of Scottish history often ask about the statue so if it goes so does history.
    Some say that it was the Dukes wife who was the real bad one,take your pick.

    I see Swinson is going to be Prime Minister according to her just like Steele go home and prepare for Government,chancers all of them.

  405. Another Union Dividend says:

    Before Swinson is signed up a Better Together’s new poster girl perhaps they might ask her, as she lives in London, if she is registered to pay Scottish Income Tax?

    If not she is just another London metropolitan type who thinks it is OK for a majority of MPs to get a second EU vote but not a Scottish Parliament majority or an election mandate for Indy Ref2.

  406. galamcennalath says:

    Peston in the Spectator, a fair analysis and prediction.

    “September and October … will see parliament in tumult like nothing anyone alive may have witnessed.

    And as I think you all know, my central scenario is there will be an autumn general election, fought between a no-deal-Brexit Tory party and a disunited set of opposition parties which have varying degrees of commitment to remaining in the EU “

    That would, however, be superb circumstances for the SNP to fight a GE and remove almost all BritNat MPs from Scotland.

  407. Breeks says:

    galamcennalath says:
    23 July, 2019 at 9:25 am

    …..That would, however, be superb circumstances for the SNP to fight a GE and remove almost all BritNat MPs from Scotland.

    And then what?

    Been there, done that, did nothing with it.

    What will be different “next time”?

    Thanks too for the correction about the statue. I knew it was the Duke of Sutherland, but I thought he and Cumberland were the same person. I stand corrected, but I’d still tear it down.

    If you want a landmark for tourists, build a new monument dedicated to the crofters and victims of the clearances.

  408. auld highlander says:

    Scott at 9.25

    And just who are the many people who want the statue to stay?? This object and his buddies and maybe a few misguided souls.

  409. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Can we PLEASE be clear about EVEL.

    English Votes for English Laws does not preclude a Scottish MP from being Prime Minister. EVEL only kicks in, if the Speaker deems a bill to be “English Only”, and even then, the Scottish MPs are only prevented from voting at a couple of the committee stages.

    Before any Bill becomes law, it has to be passed by a vote of the whole house – so the Scottish MPs still get to vote before the bill finally passes through the House and is sent for Royal Assent.

    So, there is no impediment to a Scottish MP becoming PM. As I understand it, even at those committee stages, where only English MPs can vote – interested Scottish MPs could turn up and, if selected, speak on the matter. They would, however, be unable to vote. Thus, a Scottish PM could speak and attempt to influence the House at the (English only) committee stage, but could not vote at that point; but could still vote in the final vote on that bill.

  410. gus1940 says:

    On switching to CNN a few hours ago I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw Christian Amanpoor interviewing the Clunking Fist.

  411. Doug Bryce says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    All true. However it would highlight the asymmetry of devolution perfectly if the PM was unable to vote on NHS, Tax rises or education . All of them devolved.

    Most of the public have no clue about EVEL.

  412. Ken500 says:

    Stop attacking Manny Singh. He is not the problem. People should be and are supportive.. The problems are the Councils and the Police trying to stop the AUOB Marches by discrete means. After making agreements. The authorities allow exclusive, unequal Orange Marches to pollute the streets ruining the economy every other week. In some parts of Scotland. In others they are banned people will not tolerate them. Black ball and secretive. Unequal, misogynist, racist and bigoted. Other processions and festivals take place. Including Edinburgh and Glasgow, Major Cities. 2Million people.

    People should get their expenses and some remuneration for vast organising skills. It is not just a pastime but requires logistic skills for organising major matches. All volunteering essential individual skills. It requires much donation and organisation skills. Much appreciated by the wider public. Every few months. Much participation, support and enjoyment. An expression of mass relevant participation.

  413. Ken500 says:

    Brown is roving Rep for International Education post. Can’t count or read a balance sheet. Supports illegal wars killing and maiming millions. Including women and children. He should not be lecturing anyone. Total hypocrites. Blair and Bush the mass murderer liars. Responsible for ruining the world.

  414. Fergus Green says:

    Channel 4 ‘fact check’ service, claiming that they will fact check any statements made by politicians from now until Brexit. Also inviting viewers to participate if they see hear something dodgy from politicians.

    May be worth fact-checking Channel 4 News when they report on Scots Indy?

  415. Martin says:

    RE: Socrates MacSporran says:

    23 July, 2019 at 10:00 am

    “Can we PLEASE be clear about EVEL….”

    True, but I can’t see Parliament allowing a Scottish MP to be PM, far more likely there’ll be some fudge. Unlikely to be an issue though as LibDems won’t win a majority, but also because I fully expect Swinson to try and get a constituency nearer where she lives. She’s never in East Dunbartonshire anyway so nobody would miss her.

  416. admiral says:

    Another Union Dividend says:
    23 July, 2019 at 9:25 am
    Before Swinson is signed up a Better Together’s new poster girl perhaps they might ask her, as she lives in London, if she is registered to pay Scottish Income Tax?

    Good point. We should ask all Scottish MPs to confirm this – i’m sure there may be some interesting prevarication from the Yoons.

  417. starlaw says:

    I have heard of the Statue to the Duke of Sutherland being referred to as the Murderers Monument. A fitting title right enough.

  418. galamcennalath says:

    admiral says:

    …. registered to pay Scottish Income Tax? … We should ask all Scottish MPs to confirm this


    Another one is Luke Graham. He has a rented cottage in his constituency. Oddly, it’s the same address Liz Smith MSP uses. Biddy-in? I have very serious doubts that he has ever stayed there.

    THE test EVERY Scottish MP should be subjected to is … are they a registered Scottish Tax payer, or are they resident in another country and tax regime?

    Also, do they actually appear on the Scottish Electoral Roll? And if so, is it an actual kosher entry? No one is allowed to register at a second home.

  419. North chiel says:

    “Breeks@0956” , there is such a statue ( to the victims of the clearances) in Couper Park Helmsdale unveiled by none other than Alex Salmond in 2007

  420. Dr Jim says:

    Saviour of the Union or saviour of Scotland

    Boris Johnson could go down in history as the man who did most to deliver Independence for Scotland and he could do it in one day

    Think of that eh

  421. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Re Swinson’s residential status, where she appears on the voters’ roll and does she pay Scottish Income Tax?

    If we had a half-decent Scottish media, they should/would be all over this, but…..

  422. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:
    A GE

    That would, however, be superb circumstances for the SNP to fight a GE and remove almost all BritNat MPs from Scotland.


    Yup, been saying this for months now, no one ever listenss to me though, i might as well be a leonard cohen LP 🙂

    what happens next?

    while we can be fairly confident of a good result for the snp in scotland, its more difficult to predict what will happen in england. regardless of which, a formal request for a s30 should follow in the days after the ge. ass stu pointed out in his last article, the electoral arithmatic might create the conditions for whoever forms the next government to consider granting a s30.

    most likely senario is a tory or tory coalition majority which will say no to a s30.

    the next course of action for the sg, is legal action. this will be a process which runs concurrently with the uk leaving the eu in october.

    the effects of brexit will need to been seen and how this will effect support for indy, the sg can call a he instead of indyref2
    indeed, this will happen 18 month after the brexit date regardless

    standing yes candidates in 7 of the 8 regions would ensure an indy majority and relegate the remaining unionist msps into obscurity. if support for indy continues to float about 45%, we might need to do this just to stop a unionist grand coalition.

    these are the possible/probable actions of nicola and the sg. but what about the yes movement in general?

    well, we can continue to march through the streets etc, but it might be wise to consider civil disobedience. this isnt an event, it is a process whereby support for any actions increases with every event carried out.

    eventually, when you believe you can count of enough support, then you can organise an event which can bring down the government.

    feel free to lisst any ssuggessstionss for minor acts of civil disobedience you can think of

    (if yes partiess stand in 7 out of the 8 regions

  423. Dr Jim says:

    There is possibly one thing Boris Johnson could do to get his no deal Brexit over the line

    He could call a state of emergency thus delivering all power to the executive to do what they want

    There are a number of excuses he could cite, the threat of *civil unrest* pending *disaster* or the old Tory favourite *armed conflict* and given Donald Trump has created a ready made one just waiting for him to send in his gunboat, why wouldn’t he go for that one

    He does love the idea of being thought of as a Churchill figure and let’s face it the good folks of England love all that Union flag waving Britannia we won the war stuff

    England could *stand alone* against the nasty furriners of the EU and kill some *rag heads* into the bargain, what’s not to like about that


  424. DerekM says:

    Deary me remain England if your only hope of remaining in the EU is the lib dems better get used to brexit,you are once again being conned your remain vote will be used to bring in a tory/lib coalition and you will get brexit.
    How stupid are you and i thought the brexit lot were stupid
    what part of they are all the same party the Westminster party do you not understand?

    Dont worry we Scots will give you another chance but it will be for an independent England in the EU so maybe you all should start preparing for that as we intend to end the UK.
    The consequences of this will be that you get to vote as England for what you want so please drop all this us British rubbish this is not about Britain this is about England and Scotland and the chain weighing us both down the UK.

  425. schrodingers cat says:

    Dr Jim says:
    He could call a state of emergency thus delivering all power to the executive to do what they want

    we, the people, have power. regardless of bojo dictats, we retain this power. the people are just unaware of it. they just need to be organised

  426. Hamish100 says:

    David Mundell supports Boris Johnston
    No Integrity, no conscience,- the lowest of the low. Hello Tory.

  427. Jack Murphy says:

    stu mac at 9:11am mentioned Swinson’s record when the LibDems were in Government with the Tory Government, otherwise known as the LibDem/Tory Government.

    Here’s a random extract from The Canary article:

    —-The new Lib Dem leader is more Tory than some Tories—-

    “…… Indeed, Swinson’s voting record shows that she consistently voted to reduce welfare and benefits, including cutting payments for people with illnesses or disabilities.

    She also voted to cut the Educational Maintenance Allowance for 16-to-19-year-olds.

    And she helped to raise university tuition fees, despite promising not to as one of the key policies that helped elect many Lib Dem MPs in 2010……”

    Thankyou stu mac for the reminder.

    Swinson is no friend of the people.

  428. Petra says:

    @ hackalumpoff says at 8:39 am … ”Good morning, see Nana’s links here:


    Thanks Nana for continuing to contribute greatly to the Independence cause.


    @ Legerwood says at 12:08 pm …. ”Interesting article on Newsnet site.”

    Great article right enough Legerwood. Well worth a read.

  429. Colin Alexander says:

    Re: EVEL

    “71….It remains the Sovereign’s prerogative to invite whomsoever she chooses to be Prime Minister, albeit in accordance with the constitutional convention that she invite the person who appears most likely to be able to command the confidence of the House of Commons”.

    Wings’ take on EVEL

  430. mr thms says:

    Scotland has a worldwide reputation for the provenance of its products.

    During his speech outside 10 Downing St, the new PM appeared to give his blessing to genetically modified organism products.

    In particular, the export of ‘blight-free potatoes’?

    As part of the EU, the Scottish government was able to veto GMO production in Scotland because agriculture (and fisheries) were devolved matters the EU had responsibility for.

    While the vast majority of those devolved powers will return to Scotland, around 20 will be ‘shared’.

    Scotland need to be alert..

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