Wings Over Scotland

Always inspired CC. Love the reflection on the goggles???.

Mr Cairns take a bow, brilliant..

Surely Adam won’t try to give the ‘kiss-of-life’ to this dying nag?!!

What an absolute shambles. The best Brexit deal for Scotland is Independence. Get rid of the lot of them.

The ‘reporters’ would not last a minute in an Independent Scotland. They would all get the sack. Useless, malicious incompetents backing up a useless UK Gov of total losers. Overpaid prima donnas, They can’t count or read a balance sheet, investigate or analyse. They just specialise in telling lies.

Summed up in one ….Again

Nice one.

Applies to most unionist policies for Scotland not just the Brexit scandal.

Scotland will back none of this. A reminder for feeble minded brexiteerrs and unionist stooges in Scotland, every single f****** constituency in Scotland voted against brexit. Not one area voted in favour. Not one. In Edinburgh, where the Tory leader in Scotland Ruth Davidson currently resides, the vote was over 70% against.

Why should anybody in Scotland back any of it, including a second vote. We voted against brexit, yet England has decided to just drag Scotland and its people out of the EU anyway. That is not democracy, that is tyranny.

Time is getting near when NS MUST call the referendum. People are getting p*ssed off now, and brexit is too close for comfort.

Dougbryce Wales voted Leave too as did most Protestants in Northern Ireland and hence the Protestant majority counties like Antrim and Down. However most polling even in England shows most voters also oppose a No Deal Brexit so most likely whether it is May or ultimately Corbyn who is PM it will be a largely mirror the single market and customs union Brexit with a work permit on arrival requirement

Adam and Jacob,very Old Testament,

Adam f#cked up Paradise,

Jacob stole his brothers birthright and blessing.

The one and only reason/purpose for Brexit was to continue to operate tax havens in British Overseas Territories. These would have been banned from April next year by EU Finance Law. The Tories and their allies do not care what else happens after Brexit, and their dupes who voted for this can console themselves that this IS what they voted for in the referendum.

Jim Morris..08:41 has the truth of it.
Remember Watergate…….follow the money.

A beautiful richly-layered illustration. Absolutely spot on. 11/10. Take a bow Chris. You’re up there with the best of them. Easily.

The mad world of Brexit is not as chaotic as it seems.

On the extremes of the spectrum there is clarity – Remainers connive to remain, the über right hopes for a No Deal ideological cleansing of all liberal values.

What of the in-betweens, those who accept Brexit but wish to remain close to Europe?

The fantasists, with cherry picking the EU benefits they like and rejecting the responsibilities they don’t, still day dream. Or, has this largely stopped and the mythological land of Chequers is now just a smoke screen?

There is more are more evidence that May will accept a new draft of the Irish backstop and the EU will accept a woolly statement of future trading, then the Withdrawal Agreement with non binding future statement can be signed. May needs to get it through WM so is is gambling anything is better than No Deal for a majority. She shouldn’t be so sure.

Labour want a GE so are saying they will oppose anything.

The SNP are wise to this Blind Brexit strategy. Mike Russell – ” Brexit with next to no detail about future relationship – a so called ‘blind Brexit’ – would be completely unacceptable. “

@Nana posted a link this morning on the subject …
link to infacts.org

In most ways, it comes down to what the über right do. To achieve a Brexit, they might back a Blind Brexit with the hope of achieving a hard solution later. They might continue to scheme for No Deal with last minute emergency mini deals for the essentials.

Or, a GE might come out of it.

He’s not dead! He’s only resting!

Great toon, as ever, Chris.

HIFUD @8.34

What an absolute load of horseshit (keeping with the theme)

A “mirror” SM and CU???? How do you think up such unhinged nonsense? This is the “mirror” that deluded Britnats reside inside?

It’s this type of refusal to face the facts, that is breaking up your beloved Union.

Keep going, every push like this helps our cause.

Jim Morris says
15 September, 2018 at 8:41 am
“The one and only reason/purpose for Brexit was to continue to operate tax havens in British Overseas Territories. These would have been banned from April next year by EU Finance Law. The Tories and their allies do not care what else happens after Brexit, and their dupes who voted for this can console themselves that this IS what they voted for in the referendum”
___________

Absolutely spot on.

Anyone interested should check out this documentary.
The Spider’s Web link to youtube.com
(The City of London, corruption, money laundering, tax havens etc.)

@Rock will have an aneurysm seeing this, haha.

Should be in the mainstream Chris!

I have a hideous lurgy and won’t make it to George square so could somebody give Ronnie, Sam , Paul and if they get there Sybil and Smallaxe a hug please – thanks!

England is not Scotlands friend:

The United Kingdom is not a country and to keep repeating that lie is and always has been a propaganda exercise by the English parliament to make people believe that lie

If indeed the United Kingdom were a country what would be the need for representation from other parts of it when the numbers of one country outweigh those of the other constituent parts so it is a perpetuation of a lie to confuse the citizens of the other parts reducing them to mere onlookers of the decisions taken by the part with the greatest number

Scotland is a partner in this United Kingdom but is treated as though it’s township or village within an English country
The media and the government promote this fallacy daily by calling the Union a country so much so until a people are so subsumed they accept it as so and forget the truth which is that the United Kindgom is NOT NOT NOT a country

What the English or indeed the Welsh or Northern Irish decide to do with their existence is and should be a matter for them but what Scotland decides to do is a matter for Scotland

These are the facts and they are undisputed and will be upheld whether British nationalists like it or like it not
British nationalists will have their opportunity to vote within Scotland to support their case for remaining in the Union with a country that outvotes them 10 to 1 if they so choose, that’s democracy but what they will not have is the right to prevent legality taking its course and when a majority of Scotlands population of its own will decides to leave this Union they will find the country and people they chose (England) to allow to run their affairs previously will resent them just as much as those of us who voted to leave, because no matter how strongly a Unionist person may feel about the situation they in Scotland England does not feel the same way about Scotland, they have no loyalty no ties except those of impending financial loss to their own country of England so Unionists should not hold out some forlorn hope of England having some mystical power over the law to make this situation go away, they don’t even though they may try

But it’s not because England is your friend it’s because England is your owner and nobody likes losing property

Dr Jim says

The United Kingdom is not a country

Indeed. Only the gullible and con-merchants who target them describe the UK is a country.

No where, to my knowledge, is the claim made officially.

The UK’s charter and official definition at the United Nations describes itself as a Union between two Countries, one Principality and a Provence.

The second of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The red horse intimates war and strife. It also indicates civil war.

The Tories torn by strife as is Labour, trying to rally forces who want nothing to do with them.

The death knell sounds for this Union.

Brilliant cartoon Chris on so many levels. I applaud you.

Nice One Chris, another classic.
This sums up the mentality of the Union, show any of them this cartoon, and they would still back this horse over an SNP horse.(The Union at ANY COST)
Simples.
Hope this makes sense!!

For those saying Brexit is all about the tax havens – spot on.

It is not possible to stay in the SM or CU without remaining in the European Court of Justice.

If the ECJ is still in operation with jurisdiction in your area – then the new tax laws governing tax havens will be implemented.

The EU is quite determined on this – International Industrial Tax Dodging is now threatening 1st world economies – they’re actually doing something about it.

Worryingly the mad Brexiteers did not appear to understand the operational tie in – hence their initial statements about ‘of course we can leave, but still be in the SM/CU’.

Now they know, and their choice is clear, generations of ill gotten gains, from the spice trade, to slavery, to the modern day tax evasion – the 1% will screw us all and survive.

My best guess from what I’ve read, is that the following is the order of monetary bigness.

1/ Money Stashed In Tax Havens (and the tax not paid)

2/ Scotland’s Oil and Gas

3/ Scotland’s Renewables (not fully online yet, but a banker for the future and 4 x bigger than the oil and gas)

4/ The Selling Off of Nationalised Industries
a) Particularly the NHS – cause relatives of sick loved ones will pay anything, for always
b) Longer term – Scotland’s Water

Of course it helps if you can control food and water standards, reduce/compromise them and you can contribute to making the public ill, which feeds a constant (and lucrative) customer stream to your newly privatised health system. A circular economic model – the dark model.

Scotland’s Oil and Gas is the petty cash supply to fund Brexit.

We so need out of the UK and fast.

And remember the 2008 Bankers Austerity Crash cut GPD by 2%. So all the job losses in public sector was from that, and that’s not even finished yet.

A Soft Brexit will hit GPD by another 2%
A Hard Brexit by 8% – 2.7 million job losses.

For those of us old enough to remember Thatcher’s rule – remember this, in those days, there were teaching jobs, University Jobs, Police Service, Fire Service, NHS Service, Social Service jobs, Council jobs. With the above Brexit hits, we will not have them, they simply cannot survive another 2% cut. It will be like Thatchers rule all over again, but on speed.

Bad news travels. Bad news is an easy sell.

Better Together had a plan of 2 parts bad news to one part good (they appealed to a Scottish sense of social justice and nostalgia, plus an inherent inertia of ‘you don’t have to do anything’).

This time out the circumstances dictate – Project Fear is all ours because of Brexit, and Indy is the path of least resistance and positive outcome. We need to play this for all our worth.

Best wishes to all.

Such a brutally honest depiction of the Tory cabal in the UK.

Ruthless! Insane, heartless and willfully blind to what they are doing to everyone’s future.

Chris you have excelled with this ‘toon, an award winner!

O/T is it just me or does Reece Mogg look like Herr Flick from Allo Allo

@Valerie says: 15 September, 2018 at 10:52 am:

Replying to – HYUFD @8.34:
” … How do you think up such unhinged nonsense?”

Och! Valerie, He/She/It doesn’t think. He/She/It, is after all a unionist and unionists, by definition, are not capable of reasoned, joined-up, thinking. They are mentally conditioned from birth to accept the Westminster Establishment mantras in a similar fashion to all other religion’s and their illogical teachings.

Not one of these religions can show proof that Gods exist. Thus blind faith and denial of truth is the basis of all such beliefs.

In this case we have this idiot’s moronic claims that , “his/her/its country is, “The United Kingdom”.

Now that title, quite literally, describes, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”. Now factually there are two distinct United Kingdoms in the British Isles. The oldest being that formed in 1503 by, “The Union of the Crowns”, that legally was only a personal union of the Crowns for James VI of Scots who inherited the three crowns of the Kingdom of England.

On 11 July 1603 the crowns of Scotland and England were united under King James VI of Scotland as he became King James I of England.

However, the ‘perfect union’ that King James hoped for was not achieved for Scotland and England kept their own parliaments, their own laws and minted their own coinage. That, “Union of the Crowns”, was, and still is, the personal, “United Kingdom”, of the current monarchy and it includes the three non-United Kingdom Government, Crown Protectorates of Jersey, Guernsey and Man. That Personal union of the Monarch did not result in a united kingdom government because the sovereignty of the two independent kingdoms was legally different in 1603.

It remained legally different in 1688 when The Kingdom Of England Parliamentarians rebelled against their rightful monarch and deposed the King of the Kingdom of England. They rejected over 50 royals in the direct line and invited a foreign minor royal, Princess Mary of Orange, to become Queen of the Kingdom of England. Mary was actually a Stuart by birth.

However, Mary did not want her Husband “Billy”, to become her consort and under, then current, English law a male partner in a marriage actually owned his wife and all her possessions. Hence the offer was legally as joint monarchs or the English Crowns would have legally moved to the Dutch.

In any event the English Parliamentarians then offered the three crowns of the Kingdom of England to the royal couple as joint monarchs and thus the Kingdom of England became, “Nassau-Orange/Stuart”, but as the two British Kingdoms were still both independent the English changes could not be legally applied to the Kingdom of Scotland and that can of worms is still at the heart of Westminster’s troubled to this day.

First of all it only changed the English Rule of Law very slightly in that the offer of the joint monarchy to William & Mary was conditional upon then legally delegating their, “Divine Right of Kings to rule”,(a.k.a. Sovereignty), to the still independent Parliament of England. Thus the countries of England, Wales & Ireland became a, “Constitutional Monarchy”.

This did not apply to the Kingdom of Scotland that had, in any event, changed its rule of law from Divine Right of Kings in 1320 by the declaration of Arbroath that made gave the people of Scotland the Divine Right to rule, (made them sovereign), hence the long held claim that, “Scots were, “God’s Chosen People”, or more commonly that Scotland was, “God’s own Country”. The monarch of Scotland thus became The Protector of the People of Scotland’s Sovereignty.

Thus the Westminster attempted application of the changes to the English Kingdom’s monarchy and the English Rule of Law instantly began the Jacobite uprisings as the parliament of Scotland had not deposed their monarch. This, of course, shows the English claims that the Jacobites were rebels was total lies. You cannot rebel against another kingdom’s monarchy.

This situation is what led to the Westminster plot to force the Treaty of Union and Westminster continually breaking the terms of that Treaty since day one of the union and the problems Westminster faces today.

The United Kingdom is legally, and it always has been, a union of only two Kingdoms and it has never legally been a union of four countries.

All it needs now to finally end is for a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to agree the union is over and allow the Kingdom of England sort out all of the many problems it has created for itself.

I actually do really wish the people of the Kingdom of England well. Their problems rest with Westminster and not with either Scots, Scotland or the Holyrood Parliament.

Mind you for most of the people of the Kingdom of England I fear this will all fly over their heads. Most unionists, including their MPs, seem to pronounce the name of the Scots Parliament as Hollyrood rather than Holyrood.

We all know our aims but here’s the thing. Just how long do we need to put up with all this propaganda and bad intent aimed at us under the direction of Westminster and their proxies.
Are we in a Union, ie where there are only 2 participants, Scotland and England or are we not. We know what they think, of course.

How can we not go to Court and our legal eagles, ones who are aware of what has gone on here.
This to openly, explained why England is in default of this Union partnership.
There must be hundreds of instances where they could easily prove that England is in default and broken our Union agreement many, many times by their arrogant and sneaky ways that make England an senior partner armed have the benefit of England as it’s aim. Not an equal in any way, as should have been.

I am not talking of course of UDI, but a proper legal route that would have to have everything exposed, whereupon England itself due to their actions, have broken the Union agreement and are responsible for it’s demise.
Would that not be our best route to ensure we succeed, if for any reason Indy2 fails.

I would hope, and do think, Indy2 will sort it out for us, but they cheat, manipulate and will engage other dirty tricks to stop us winning.So that concern remains. Therefor this would give us a double chance of success, and with no further referendum to be undermined by whatever the means.

Not so easy to escape a court case where all the evidence is laid out for the world to see. They may not even contest it, because they know how it would all look to the rest of the world. Their serial theft and dirty deeds would not look very good for them at all, and would show them up for what they are. Despots.

Proceedings in Scottish courts under Scottish law, as we must be entitled to do, as a co signatory of the agreement itself.

Brilliant comme d’habitude.
OT. Monica Lennon, I know that you read this unmissable i-magazine.
Stop lying about the Glasgow DC equal pay dispute.
WE all know who is to blame for torturing these women for 10 years.
You. Your nasty wee Red Tory Party.
So just remember, we won’t forget.
Just what is the point of you anyway?

Proud Cybernat says:
Thanks for the link, do not know how I missed that one from the dug.
Anyhoo, it is Indy2 win or bust, well, just need to roll up the sleeves and help more with winning it.

@Proud Cybernat 1.57 p.m.

A referendum/election that was held after such a legal decision would be a very different event. A majority Yes vote would almost be guaranteed.

I’d like to see some legal/international cases which would expose the shaky position of the UK as currently run. It all helps to expose the lies we are subject to.

Always worth reminding current Labour Party Members of the statement below. Look at his values at the start of the previous century. Unfortunately the expansion of the Labour Party led to the “moderation” of socialist values. Keir Hardie didn’t compromise like Tony Blair to win votes. He maintained his principles. I wonder how the branch office justify the arguement for India and South Africa but NOT Scotland?

Keir Hardie –
“He was the founder of the Labour Party, the first Leader of the Labour Party, and the first ever Labour Member of Parliament……who supported votes for women, self-rule for India, home-rule for Scotland, and an end to segregation in South Africa. “

Dr Jim @ 14:37,

Well, that’s something of a relief to know. There’s been rather too much kite-flying recently and it’s been nothing but demoralising.

Far better to stick to what’s already been voted on in Holyrood, as yesindyref2 kindly reminded us upthread.

Les,
‘Are we in a Union, ie where there are only 2 participants, Scotland and England or are we not. We know what they think, of course.’

Nothing new in that Les, this from 1791

@ Chick McGregor

I seem to remember their was another with a Highlander trying to sit on a cludgie (Punch perhaps). Oh how they laughed, har, har.

I think many of our fellow countrymen and women see Mogg (if they see him at all) as an ecentric English gentleman who is peculiar, detached from reality, but ultimately benign.

His message is lost to all those who merely see him as somewhat quirky!

Mogg and is ilk see England returning to greatness through free trade where the uk is in a race to the bottom on standards, workers rights and care of vulnerable people, etc.

Sadly the uk press and bbc seem to make a habit of building up the likes of Mogg and Davidson, pure and utter charlatans!

Brilliant cartoon!

If Labour back Chequers May’s bacon is saved. If Labour back the Tory rebels then May’s goose is cooked.

If Labour can’t agree amongst themselves then the result will be pot luck.

However, given the Tories aren’t speaking to SNP MPs on any issue they have real cheek asking the SNP to do anything much less bail them out of a jam of their own making.

colin alexander, rock, what a fud-

HOW DO THEY FIGHT FOR SCOTLAND?

They don’t – their brit nats.

Colin

In an independent Scotland we would still need a government that was actually competent. I really wouldn’t trust the current opposition be it Tory or Labour to run a menage at the moment. How the political die fall and align post independence may be fluid but I think much of the current government would still be running the show initially. That may change of course. The beauty of independence is that we choose our own government thereafter and hopefully ever after.

Valerie May’s Chequers Plan already mirrored the customs union on goods regulations, the final deal will likely see it mirror the single market too to a large extent with a work permit/study place on arrival requirement. It will largely be a Norway style Brexit initially most probably to get the Withdrawal Agreement and transition deal with any FTA negotiated in the transition.

Do not forget either 36% of SNP voters ie over a third of SNP supporters voted to Leave the EU, if you want to leave one union ie the UK do not be surprised that a significant minority of your fellow nationalists want to leave another union ie the EU too. Indeed the number of SNP voters who voted Leave was about the same as the number of Labour voters across the UK who voted Leave and significantly more LD and Green voters voted Remain than SNP voters voted Remain
link to lordashcroftpolls.com

HandandShrimp @ 17:27,

Well said. (Not that Coco is worth the effort, but others might still benefit.)

In fact, I would go further. The coming of independence would be a right shock for the stagnant BritNat parties, who would have to up their game considerably to show ability to run an actual sovereign government without the crutch of southern bosses telling them what to believe and do. Quite an ask on current performance, you might say, but when needs must…

The BritNat parties are desperately afraid of extinction post-indy, but this is an (all too typical) pessimistic view. It’s hard to predict exactly how things will develop, but we would certainly need a gamut of competent parties with the ability to both challenge and participate in government, and have sufficient talent and capability to be able to convince voters of that.

I believe the resultant shake-up would enable the right people to come forward and prosper, and this would be to absolutely everyone’s benefit, including the current opposition. Apart that is from the sluggards, time-servers and no-hopers, of whom we current have a surfeit, and who are a complete damper on progress.

Luigi says

A large, rather ugly elephant in the room:

English Nationalism.

Aye, the root cause of all this stoochie.

Makes you glad Scottish independentists have largely set aside nationalism 😉

HYUFD

While there is undoubtedly a mix of views in all parties on the EU it is nonetheless the case that enthusiasm in Scotland for Leave (which was never strong) has faded.

A Norway style deal would most likely tick the box for many SNP voters including those for Leave but I suspect the hard line Tory/UKIP peeps may feel differently and May might struggle with her rebels unless Jeremy backs her deal.

I do wonder why certain folk on here cannot help but promote our resident trolls by engaging with them…….Hmmmmm!!

Robert J. Sutherland :

Its pretty clear that we are supposed to ignore the trolls. Why do you engage ?

@Jock McDonnell says: 15 September, 2018 at 2:11 pm:

” … Course, they argue they are sovereign, but thats just an assertion – so long as we allow it, nothing more.
Peffers will no doubt be along shortly to explain it at length.

You explained it well enough yourself, Jock, when you said, “As long as we allow it”. That is exactly the explanation.

Westminster does as it pleases because in 1688 Westminster deposed the rightful monarchy of the Kingdom of England, skipped over 50 Stuarts in the direct Royal line and offered the Crowns, (there are three of them), of the Kingdom of England to a minor Royal, Mary Of Orange who was married to William Of Orange. However, both the Dutch and English law was at that time the male partner in a marriage actually owned his wife and all her goods and chattels belonged to him.

So Mary refused the offered crown as it would have made Billy her consort. The obvious reason Westminster had skipped over those 50 royals in the English royal line was because they were Roman Catholics. So the dark shadow of sectarianism was behind all this.

So Westminster then made a decision that only slightly altered the status of English Sovereignty, (a.k.a. The divine right of Kings). They offered the crowns of the three countries that made up the Kingdom of England to Willian & Mary of Orange as equally joint monarchs.

So Mary, born a Stuart, was in the direct line of descent but William was of the House of Orange so they claimed it was still a Stuart on the throne. However, they made the couple legally delegate their Devine Right, (sovereignty), to the Parliament of England and made the three country Kingdom of England into a Constitutional Monarchy but with the Monarchy still legally sovereign.

It was, of course, a fudge and because the two British Kingdoms were still independent of each other it could not legally be applied to the Kingdom of Scotland. Scotland had, in any case, ended the sovereignty of the Monarchy 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath.

Which is exactly where your claim upthread comes in, “As long as we allow it”. Which is exactly what happened. The Westminster engineered the Darien Expedition, (with the aid the London Scot, William Patterson and the Dutch via the House of Orange). Scotland was not bankrupt but the land owning parliamentarians were. The Jacobites were being militarily exterminated and the, “Paircel o Rogues”, were being offered money, threatened and generally worked on by Westminster.

So in spite of the people rioting in the streets against it the Treaty of Union was signed. In other words the Scots in power allowed it and they have done so ever since. Westminster has done exactly whatever Westminster wanted to do and there was not an organised majority of the legally sovereign people to oppose it – – until now.

That is the simple truth that you claimed upthread:-

“AS LONG AS WE ALLOW IT”, has probably already reached the point where a referendum will show we will no longer allow it. Why else did you think the three Westminster unionist parties are claiming, “No one in Scotland wants a referendum”, are claiming we need Westminster’s permission and going crazy with Brexit?

They have MSPs in the EU who must know the lie of the land of the other EU member states. They want out for they know Scotland will get EU member state backing they did after all witness this:-

link to youtube.com

he BBC and the SMSM never showed that – are we surprised?

Just in case no one has already posted a link here is the link to todays Indy support gathering:-

link to youtube.com

Could I ask people to sign and spread this petition far and wide, here’s a wee segment of Mhairi’s speech in the HoC’s about how starving, evicting a stressing people doesn’t incentivise them to work:

link to twitter.com

…and the petition itself, over 12,000 signatures so far…let’s give it Wings:

link to snp.org

@yesindyref2

Actually, after I had posted, I thought “they are far removed from the decision makers” isn’t something I have any proof of, nor in insight into. I don’t know, do I?

Even though they are not SNP members they are (like The Rev) highly influential within the cause. Perhaps they do all have ‘back channels’.

We need a lang spoon tae sup wi the Deil.

@galamcennalath
I’d like to think they do, and do have behind the scenes plans going off.

O/T it pains me to write this but I think Scots should know.
Anecdotal evidence- I fully admit – but there’s a lesson somewhere in here

At an international meeting yesterday, in the chit-chat at the coffee break 2 Americans were asked if Trump was going to be impeached
Answers – No but he won’t be re-elected.
Watch the mid-terms

The Englishman was asked about Scottish independence
Answer: Scotland’s a miserable place. We finance it from our central government.They’re nothing without us in Westminster.

Irish person (not me) “I supported Scottish Independence until they voted “NO”. Now I don’t. Our irish independence was hard won and thank God we won it. The Scots couldn’t even vote right to get theirs”

The Englishman was asked about brexit
“We’re brexiting. Everything is up for discussion

An Italian asked me “What are you so upset about? Scotland’s the UK’s problem – nothing to do with us, we’re EU member states

two things emerged for me – 1) Scotland watch your back!
2)if Scotland wants independence we have to take it, grasp it no matter what and make it ours

ben madigan @ 21:26,

Many continentals are as ignorant about the Scots as are the English. Because we’ve been hidden behind the latter for 300 years. We’re even called generically “English”, as we all know.

As for that Irish person, I can well understand the ready contempt, but s/he obviously doesn’t know their own history either. Pre-independence they had a shootout with the British for several years, and then a bloodbath among themselves for a few more. So much for a smooth transition with full consent.

It’s amazing how some people have the benefit of hindsight and still can get it completely wrong!

yesindyref2 @ 19:32,

In which case, I hope the powers-that-be have all their real discussions on the subject in rooms with a radio playing and a tap running! =grin=

Speaking personally, though, I dislike kite-flying. It makes us appear indecisive and unsure. Not at all a good look, especially for the undecided. (Look at the Tories by way of – bad – example.)

And I really, really don’t like the notion that I’m being “played” by putative gaslighters. I hope we’re better than that.

Fortunately we that support Independence don’t need to concern ourselves about what those that don’t live here might think. We only need concern ourselves about what our next door neighbour, our workmates, our brother or our mother might think.

Those are the people we need to persuade to support Independence for Scotland not anyone else. Win enough of them over to achieve 50% plus 1 of all Scots and everything else thereafter will take care of itself.

@ben madigan
My wife is Irish. The Irish said after the NO vote that Scotland and Scottish people have no balls. My wife said all through Indy Ref 1 that it would be a NO as Scotland had no balls. She voted YES even though she “knew” it was a waste of time. I was more optimistic – falsely that time.

But you only have to look at what people are sayin “We can’t have another Ref until we’re sure of winning it, I couldn’t cope with losing again”. Oh, and “Look at Quebec”.

Cobblers, we have one in say March, and if that fails we have one in 2024, and if that fails we have one in 2029 and if that fails we have another in 2034. And Scotland is NOT Quebec.

Some of the people saying that now amaze me, and frighten me. Someone somewhere is getting to Indy supporters and making them fearty cats. Well someone should give them a scratching post – and some balls.

In Ireland people died for Independence, shot as “tractors”. In Scotland all we have to do is put an X in the YES box.

Robert Peffers Scotland has already had a referendum in 2014, they voted 55% to 45% to stay in the UK

Robert J Sutherland Of course if Home Rule for Ireland had passed and it had its own Parliament as Scotland does now the push for Irish independence may not have succeeded

Ben Madigan

Indeed many Scots do not drag their balls around as a large number of Scots who are ball less drag their knuckles about …you know the folk.

Can I say this?

Sorry to the nice folks but I have partaken of booze.

So many excellent commenters btl here on Wings. It is always an education and an inspiration to see the number and variety of people thinking about how to restore Scotland and end the subservience to a most unsatisfactory political construct.

HYUFD why so anti-Scotland, do you actually live here? Do you think Scotland is a country not a region? Even with the continued propaganda against Scotland the support for Independence is not falling but growing. So what have you to offer us HYUFD ? He-haw like so many unionist anti-Scottish wind bags.

HYUFD at 10.46

And…….
Democracy is one vote forever?
We don’t have regular elections?
You are not allowed to change your mind?

The only folk talking against another referendum is those who know YES will win it (like yourself).
So transparently infantile.
In the meantime you have just wandered on here thinking we are all stupid and imagining you’ve got some killer points to save the day.
It’s known as the “London Times syndrome”. They think they know everything about the scruffy silly Jocks but in fact they know fuck all about us.
As do you.

@Old Pete

Hyfud (spelling intentional) is an apparently deranged person of the Britnat/English Nationalist persuasion, who lives in Essex. He does not even have a horse in this Scottish Independence race. I have no idea why he/she/it thinks this site is anything to do with him/her/it. I suspect it is because he/she/it thinks we are “half-educated tenement-dwellers” like the famous Monty Python person allegedly said.

Yesindyref2 @10.33
I think you’re comparing apples and,em, we’ll grapefruits there Yesindyref2.
Ireland was left with no real democratic route out from Westminster controll.
The behaviour of the British Government in Ireland at that time was pure military oppression, and it wasn’t widely known about internationally.
Even if it had been, it seems,that kind of behaviour from Governments was more acceptable to populations, back in the day!
These days (and I think Westminster would love the excuse) Government violence is not perceived as a thing that governments are just allowed to do, to manage populations.
They need to hide it and cover it up and our communications today make that almost impossible.
Which in turn makes the democratic route possible.
I don’t judge Ireland’s route to independence but we in Scotland can’t ,so far ,justify emulating it..
So it really comes down to… different methods for different times.
Most of the No voters I know just didn’t see the “need” back in 2014..
Why cause all that disruption and create a few years of hardships for ourselves, for what?
An ideology?
For them they couldn’t see where this came from, the Country was just fine, they weren’t oppressed!
Others (older) felt “well we’d been thgithir that long, there’s nay point in changing things noo !
Fortunately none of them felt any loyalty to the British state… So it seems to me that they just need a good enough reason, one that they can see relates to them and they’ll move to Yes

Daisy Walker, thanks for that, like many i thought that the EU anti tax avoidence legislation was what is behind brexit, that Manx Radio news report threw a curve ball, however found this tonight and its only in case there is a transitional agreement. So will probably be a temp bill and will be dropped once Brexit is completed.
https://www.ey.com/gl/en/services/tax/international-tax/alert–uk-takes-steps-to-implement-eu-anti-tax-avoidance-directive

I would think that the UK and its dominions are the World leaders at Tax evasion/avoidance. Having worked most of my working life for American Corporations I know how effective the IRS was at ensuring any US Citizen paid their taxes even through they were based outside the USA. Dont know if this was the same at Corporate level , that was way above my payscale, however I travelled extensively Internationally and most of the Oversea’s Base managers were Yanks and they all paid their taxes to the IRS.

ben madigan @ 22:36,

Well, there’s no getting away from it, Ben, in 2014 we had our own future in our hands and we (as a community) blew it. So it’s definitely one up for the Irish.

We are a cautious lot. We sort-of funked devo back in 1979 (poison-pill notwithstanding) but finally came good with a better option in 1997.

So there’s a fair chance that with the hard lessons in self-delusion that we have hopefully been learning these last 4 years, next time we will get it properly nailed. Even though indyref2 is right, we ain’t Quebec (and the UK ain’t Canada either).

I just hope it won’t be long now. All this arm-twisting sit-down-and-suck-up-your-Brexshit-and-like-it is doing my head in. Years now of moronic self-harm on an industrial scale when we could just be quietly getting on with doing our own thing instead of being pushed around by a bunch of far-off uncaring political inadequates.

I just desperately want to have a normal life again in a normal forward-looking country. Surely that’s not too much to ask?

Dave McEwan Hill Yes thought they would win it in 2014, they lost and if there is a Unionist majority in Holyrood in 2021 as is possible in polls, indyref2 could be off the agenda for the best part of a decade

remo I am a Unionist, if I was an English nationalist I would have voted Leave in the EU referendum (I voted Remain) and I would want England to break away from the UK and declare its own independence first

For all those who haven’t had the absolute pleasure of ‘debating’ with HYFUD or whatever, he’s already declared ‘why’ he’s here:

‘HYUFD says:
2 September, 2018 at 5:18 pm
The Tories got a higher voteshare in 2017 across the UK than the SNP got in Scotland at the general election which really says it all.

I will of course never apologise for having pressing the Unionist case hard, if you do not like that as a diehard Nationalist, tough.

HYUFD says:
2 September, 2018 at 5:24 pm
I could of course not care less what anybody on this forum thinks, I came here to press the Unionist case hard and take on the Nationalists (and any party which puts National identity first is by definition Nationalist). Notice the brilliant Ruth Davidson by taking a tough hard approach to nationalists has seen her party’s vote surge, she is undoubtedly as tough a Unionist leader as Salmond was for Nationalists

HYUFD says:
2 September, 2018 at 5:29 pm
You will no doubt whinge as ever about Scotland’s woes despite the fact it now has its own Parliament which decides most Scotgish domestic issues and representatives at Westminster too. The Tories have of course halved unemployment from 2010 and reduced the deficit too but that is a different matter however no doubt you will whinge about that too’

—————————-

He’s here to ‘destroy’ us ‘Nats’ and if you want a real insight into why it’s a complete waste of time even responding to him…it starts about here on the 19th of August, on ‘The Cereal Offenders’, thread. There is nothing you can say to him as his mind is made up and if you continue to read to the end of that thread…you’ll understand exactly who you are dealing with, it’s nothing but ‘rinse and repeat’, he’s no here to debate:

link to wingsoverscotland.com

I will be posting that exact comment @ 12:24 am every time someone ‘new’ engages with him fwiw, to avoid them wasting their efforts in engaging with such a mind.

He’s here to disrupt, that’s not ‘my’ opinion, its his mission statement.

Rock Sturgeon and May are the same type of character, cautious political pragmatists unlike the more passionate nationalist Salmond or passionate Brexiteer Boris

Try not to see the front page of the Sunday Times.

Ms. Davidson is again courting the media, denying she is interested in becoming PM – front page headline this time plus photo – she certainly knows how to do PR.

Carefully control any exposure to the media, then you can can get them to print anything and they’ll not ask you anything difficult.

They really are desperate to have her in the news.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

O/T..?

Saw this on the Rev’s Twitter:

link to twitter.com

“Look closely and the Spitfire is sponsored by a German watch company. Splendid.”
“The aircraft in this photo has IWC Schaffhausen written on it.”
—————-
Maybe I’m just pissed off with the Brit. Nat. crap or geography is missing from schools nowadays, but..

IWC is a leading SWISS watchmaker in Schaffhausen which is in SWITZERLAND.

It’s on the north side of the Rhine surrounded by Germany on three sides.

The Rhine Falls where Sherlock and Moriarty fought to the “death” is nearby.

So fck Stukas, Spitfires and Liam Fox and the rest of the Westminster swamp.

Thepnr @ 00:44,

I think the real moral of that story is not so much “slow and steady beats fast and mouthy”, but “don’t go to sleep on the job”. =laugh=

Like King Canutes the Brits hold up their hands in defiance of the oncoming tidal wave in sure and confident stupidity that it all won’t happen, then when it does will still look for someone else to blame or persecute for their own lack of ability to add up

Brains are for wimps, reversing stupidity is for losers in Britnat world

The only unfortunate thing about all of it is when it’s all over the rest of us normal people will still have to put up with these idiots till the next time they do something else dumb and that’s the trouble with the loyal Britnat they seem unable to learn and adapt, personally I think it’s probably an evolutionary thing, except these Bastirts won’t die off quick enough until they’ve fulfilled their mission of Buggering up the world

Which our species will have to fix all over again

All the best brains in the world spend their time inventing ways of improving life on earth and the unevolved Britnats and Trump types look for ways to employ these inventions for destroying it

If Michael Rennie arrived in a spaceship with a big robot called Gort telling them he represented an intergalactic police force and they’d wipe out all human life on the planet if they didn’t behave themselves they’d still have the stupidity to argue and start a fight about it

@Robert J. Sutherland:

Thanks for your kind reply Robert. I’m sure all Scots nats feel like you do – even though “we are a cautious lot”.
Sorta frustrated, impotent, can’t move forward, can’t step backward etc.
Caught between PM May’s “Now is not the time” and FM Sturgeon’s “wait and watch policy”

I wasn’t alive at the turn of the 20th century when the movement for Irish independence took off (I was born well after WW2) – but I do know the republican movement of the time involved all levels of society – professions, cultural clubs, sporting associations, trades Unions, workers and so forth.
I have the feeling then Scottish independence movement is doing the same – reaching out to everyone

I share your hope that IndyRef2 won’t be long now. As you realise all this “arm-twisting sit-down-and-suck-up-your-Brexshit-and-like-it” is designed to do your head in. (And everyone else’s at the same time!)

I send my best wishes to all of Scotland to have a normal life again in a normal forward-looking country.
It really isn’t too much to ask for.

indeed, I would say it is the minimum and Scotland deserves much more. Like ireland, it deserves to take its place among the “nations of the world” or at the very least , the EU.

HI FUD.

Are you paying your neighbour’s mortgage? Perhaps you even paid his/her deposit. How benevolent of you, ffin idiot.

HYUFD at 12.11

Do keep up,please. Polls have support for independence presently between 46% and 52%. This is without an independence campaign of any sort. The last campaign started at around 28%.

In polls there is a significant majority for independence in all age ranges right up to 55 years of age and over and a significant majority for the union only at 60 years and older.

The “surge ” in votes for Ruthie and her bizarre team you describe has the Tories in Scotland at about 24% – lower than Mrs Thatchers lowest position in Scotland.

Of course the relentless promotion of Ruth Davidson for about four years across all the media in Scotland (in parallel with relentless demonisation of the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon) means that some folk in England actually believe that the Tories “won” the election in Scotland. The SNP actually has more MPs than all the others put together. I thought you should know that.

Polls actually show the Tories now losing back six of the seats they won in Scotland at that “snap” election last year and Labour losing back all but one of their gains.

In my area of Scotland about one adult voter in every twenty is now a member of the SNP.

You appear to be an articulate and thoughtful sort of person. If you have any spare brain capacity could you share some with Annie Wells.

Now,go away

Meg merrilees says:
16 September, 2018 at 12:43 am
Try not to see the front page of the Sunday Times.
Ms. Davidson is again courting the media, denying she is interested in becoming PM – front page headline this time plus photo – she certainly knows how to do PR.

Ruthie will never be PM. She is not daft. However, what people seem to be missing is the sudden build-up of Scottish Office resources in Edinburgh. IMO this is the back-up plan if Brexit goes pear-shaped (now a real possibility) – using the chaos as an excuse, Holyrood is neutered and an all-powerful Scottish Office runs the show. Now think for a minute who becomes governor general? Who becomes the Saviour Queen of Scotland?

Yep, you got it – wee Ruthie!

Of course she either has to be parachuted into a safe tory seat as an MP or is given a seat in the HoL. Do you think for a moment that the incompetent Mundale would be left in charge of Scotland? Even the tories are not that daft. 🙂

Of course, the preferred tory option is for a Chequers fudge or a Blind Brexit can-kicker, which would also seriously reduce momentum for another IndyRef.

This, Breeks, is why we still have to wait a while (not much longer). So many possible outcomes, each requiring a different response. This is 3-dimensional chess. At present, it seems all quiet on the western front, but don’t think that big manouvers are not happening under the surface. Between now and November is crucial (but alas still unknown). Wait until we see the whites of their eyes.:)

‘Support for independence remains around 45%’

You’re flogging a dead horse, ya fud.

Breeks at 6.36

Utter rubbish. The notion that the expansionist EU would block the entry to the EU of the country with most of Europe’s oil, most of its fishing waters and a strategic command of the North Atlantic is absurd. It will allow immediate re-entry if not continuous membership.
The central tenet of the EU’s construction that it does not interfere in the internal affairs member states precludes it from saying anything on the matter at this point.

@HYUFD says: 16 September, 2018 at 12:11 amL

” … indyref2 could be off the agenda for the best part of a decade.”

Utter pish! I’ve been supporting Scottish independence since I was a schoolboy in 1946. They were telling us back then that independence was dead. It isn’t and it will only go away as a unionist nightmare after it is achieved.

I’ll put that another way for you – we tell you when indy is off the table – you don’t tell us. We, the people of Scotland, are legally sovereign, when we decide the union is over we do not ask your permission, we tell you that we have decided we no longer are under Westminster rule and your Supreme Court recently backed off from attempting to tell us they are our sovereign masters.

They knew they were on the point of overstepping their claimed authority so did not press the matter. The end of the union is drawing closer by the day.

You know it too – which is why you are here on Wings attempting to fight a rear-guard action that is doomed to fail. The union is over in all but name Westminster is in total disarray and failing fast.

“Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”

? Victor Hugo

Breaks @ 6.36

Agree with you here. There is a scenario that goes:

Hard brexit
Independence out of EU
Meet criteria to join EU, without UK opt outs

This would mean a we would be in Europe with worst conditions that we have currently, but with snignificant barriers to trade with England (due to hard brexit) or out of UK and EU, which would e a nightmare position for the economy.

Worst of both worlds.

LizG I work in London, the second biggest financial centre in the world after New York and a global centre of IT and tech, law and culture, the idea London and the South East of England relies on Scottish resources is laughable. Your claim the Scottish economy is built on toil and sweat is also largely rubbish, indeed 75% of the Scottish economy is in the services sector, not much different to England