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The cannon fodder

Posted on June 12, 2017 by

The Scottish Liberal Democrats have been a drastically reduced force in Westminster politics ever since they were all but wiped out (along with most of their UK colleagues) in the 2015 election. But there were still sizeable areas of the country where they retained a strong presence, even when they’d lost their seats.

That changed dramatically last Thursday.

Because across Scotland, from John O’Groats to Berwick, Lib Dems simply hurled their bodies in front of the SNP’s guns and allowed the Tories to climb up their fallen bodies to attack the Nat battlements – sometimes successfully, sometimes falling just short as their Lib Dem patsies died in vain.

Of 11 seats won by the Lib Dems in 2010, four are now back in their hands, although the only one where they substantially increased their vote on 2015 was (dismayingly) Orkney & Shetland. We looked at the other seven to see if there was any sign of a Lib Dem revival in the wake of the SNP’s decline, and the results were startling.



Lib Dem vote: down 6000
Tory vote: up 8000

A bewildering shift, this one – the Tories were nowhere in 2015 and the Lib Dems had held the seat since way back into the 1980s, but rather than try to take it back from the SNP they handed their votes to a Tory who had a 15,000-vote deficit to make up, and couldn’t quite do it.


Lib Dem vote: down 8000
Tory vote: up 8000

There was no suggestion of any horse-trading to return perhaps the most obvious seat – in various forms it had been solidly Liberal since the 1960s until the SNP took it in 2015 – to Willie Rennie’s party either. Instead, a whopping 80% of the Lib Dem vote from 2015 switched straight to the Tories to finally give BR&S to John Lamont at the fourth time of asking.


Lib Dem vote: down 13,000
Tory vote: up 15,000

The Tories were a staggering 21,000 votes adrift here just two years ago, but so vast was the Lib Dem capitulation that they actually managed to unseat the former FM for the Tory candidate.


Lib Dem vote: down 12,000
Tory vote: up 13,000

Even more mind-bogglingly, the Lib Dems tried to give this seat to the Tories from FOURTH place and more than 25,000 votes behind the SNP. The insane, Herculean task fell short by almost 5000 votes.


Lib Dem vote: static
Tory vote: up 3000

The Lib Dems came within two votes of recapturing this seat, but it was no thanks to their Tory friends – just the slightest bit of tactical assistance would have claimed another SNP scalp, but the Tories added 3000 useless votes and didn’t donate any of them to their Lib Dem pals, who actually dropped a crucial few hundred.


Lib Dem vote: down 7000
Tory vote: up 7000

Sadly-deceased Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy beat the Tories by more than 12,000 votes in this seat in 2015 – getting more than FIVE TIMES as many – but the Lib Dems still heroically tried to win it for the Tories rather than recapture it themselves. As a result, we think it may be the only seat in Scotland where the SNP actually increased its majority this year, despite losing almost 5000 votes.


Lib Dem vote: down 7000
Tory vote: up 11,000

This was the only other seat (along with Berwickshire) where the Tory was actually better placed to make the gain than the Lib Dem, and 7000 Lib Dem transfers duly got the job done.


It’s important to note that this wasn’t a reciprocal deal. We can’t find any seats where the Tory vote fell to the benefit of the Lib Dems. In all the seats the latter gained – East Dunbartonshire, Edinburgh West, and Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross – the Tory vote increased by several thousand, and in two the Lib Dem vote went down.

Lib Dem voters simply sacrificed themselves en masse for the Tories, while getting absolutely nothing (that we can find) in return. In just seven seats 53,000 Lib Dem votes (more than 50%) vanished from the 2015 tally while the Tories added 64,000.

There was no tactical-voting effort made to restore their fortunes even in previously fertile territory like Dunfermline & West Fife, for example – Willie Rennie polled over 17,000 votes there as recently as 2010, but it was the Tories who picked up the anti-SNP tactical vote, rising from 7000 to 13,000 as the Lib Dems stayed down on 3000.

It’s perhaps bearing all this in mind when considering which side of a “progressive alliance” at Westminster the Lib Dems would take. Scottish MPs now form fully a third of the UK Lib Dem total, and could wield considerable influence. It may be safest to now regard them at all times as the Orange Tories until proven otherwise.

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  1. 12 06 17 12:56

    The cannon fodder | speymouth

  2. 14 06 17 14:41

    Still sifting – Scottish Snap

481 to “The cannon fodder”

  1. Fro

    Which makes seeing the scenes of Rennie & Cole-Hamilton celebrating with champagne yesterday all the more bizarre!!

  2. Desimond

    The Orange Tories..I like it but theyre more like they wee Easy peel Satsuma’s you get now and again. You think theyre okay and then you ultimately discover its weak skinned and filled with pure sourness.

    BTW..bring back the captions on the pictures…surely Starship troopers deserves that if not Lib Dems!

  3. Bruce L

    That reminds me I haven’t seen Starship Troopers for a while. I feel a Verhoeven binge coming on.

  4. Chris Whyte

    As I suggest here:

    The Liberal Democrats are, pretty much, electoral pariahs that are worthy of little more than a protest vote. They were heavily punished in 2015 for their coalition with a Conservative party that many of their voters hated, and there are no signs of that changing any time soon.

    In my lifetime, they’ve generally been considered a middle ground for tactical purposes when you wanted to avoid a victory lap from a blue rosette.

    Now, they’re not even that.

  5. donald anderson

    The Highlands are traditionally Liberals, plus the English incomers, who usually stand as “independents” in the local elections.

  6. Juteman

    Could ‘incomers’ that tried to be neutral in the past, have now decided to go full on unionist?

  7. Bob Mack


    Are lib Dems just actually Tories with a guilt complex ?

  8. Martin Berry

    The most obvious answer as to why the LibDem vote shifted to Tories is that it was an anti-Brexit vote. Anti Indyref2 wasn’t enough for them it was indyref2 AND anti-Brexit. These are all largely rural/farming communities where anti-eu sentiment, whether that is anti-immigrant, anti-bureaucracy, anti-CAP or anti-CFP, is very strong. Was definitely true here in N Perthshire where it was a straight SNP to Tory shift plus non-voting SNP supporters. Getting the SNP vote out on the day was a struggle in the rural towns.

  9. R-type Grunt

    “Lib Dem voters simply sacrificed themselves en masse for the Tories, while getting absolutely nothing (that we can find) in return”.

    They got a flag mate. A Strong & Stable, Red, White & Blue flag.

    Fuckin’ Nationalists!

  10. handclapping

    This is what happens when you are “led” by someone as out of touch with reality as Ming

    Yes to 2ndBrexit No to 2ndScotref ? /* shakes head in dispair */

  11. Moreida Lord

    It begs the question… how snap was the snap election? Further, and depending on whether we will have another GE soon enough, I am beginning to think Tories and LibDems are planning to revive the McConnell/Wallace Holyrood era for the 2021 election… God help us all!

  12. Neil

    @Bob Mack 12:12pm


    Are lib Dems just actually Tories with a guilt complex ?”

    What a hellish way to live life that must be

  13. Peter McCulloch

    What else would you expect from a party that down the years has resorted to all kinds of dirty tricks to
    garner votes.

    A party that took money from a convicted fraudster, and didn’t hand the money back claiming, it was his own
    money he gave them.

  14. Muscleguy

    A still from the final scene of Blackadder Goes Forth when they go over the top would have done as well as the Starship Trooper scene.

    One thing which bugged me about ST was that they seemed not to have learned a thing from late Medieval warfare in how to construct a defensive fort for firing defenders. But then making it too hard for the aliens to attack would have made a very dull film so they had to dumb that bit down.

    A smooth wall or one with downward facing spikes (can’t be used as holds) would also be used in reality.

  15. galamcennalath

    So that is 6 seats where the Tory gain appears to be almost entirely LibDem loss. The numbers almost equate.

    Collusion, where there might have been some reciprocation elsewhere does not seem to be what happened. Perhaps this wasn’t driven by LibDem candidates holding back in some plan to assist the Tories.

    It is perhaps more probable that the rump of LibDem voters of the six constituencies were staunch BritNats and were swung to the Ruth Davidson No Ref Party.

  16. Macart

    I haven’t considered them as being anything but Tories since 2010. 2014 onwards merely put a stamp on it.

    As for the Orkney and Shetland result? You get who and…WHAT… you vote for. Mr Carmichael’s past is a matter of public record. He still has a job whereas many honest folk today, who haven’t sold out their ideals, undermined their office and blackened the name of their profession don’t.

    He got to keep his job and the public gave it to him regardless of that record. That’s politics… or some such apparently.

  17. GreenRoom

    The term best suited to these MPs is probably “National Liberal”. Hat has a suitable historical resonance too.,_1931)

  18. Capella

    @ Bob Mack
    A Tory is a Liberal who’s been mugged.
    A Liberal is a Tory who’s been arrested.

    I think we are seeing the 200 year attempt by the Liberals to bring Home Rule to Scotland finally dead and buried.
    “Face aw roon”.

  19. bjsalba

    The Lib-Dems tried to trade on Charles Kennedy’s memory by having a huge picture of their candidate with him on their last leaflet. I’m not sure, but it looked to me to be a photoshop job. That did not go down well.

    They also tried to say it was the SNP defeat that drove him back to the drink. An awful lot of people understand that what broke his heart was the Lib-Dems teaming up with the Tories, and those who went to hustings know that he was already back on the booze before the election.

  20. Johnny

    In some of the madder ones here (the ones where the Lib Dems were a clear second and the Tories miles behind) you have to wonder if the former have allowed themselves to be stitched up big time.

    The Tories have almost certainly fought at least some of these on an ‘even if we don’t win, we will have stolen the mantle of obvious anti-SNP tactical vote for next time’ platform.

    And the idiot Lib Dems have let them do it.

  21. David McCann

    I feel a cliche coming on! Turkeys Christmas spring to mind!

  22. Capella

    BTW BBC reporting that the Queen’s Speech is to be delayed on account of difficulties with the DUP. Staunch loyalists force Queen to reschedule.

    Strong and stable.

  23. Stoker

    The art of illusion has exposed its self. Three into one does go. Three peas in a pod and they’ve all revealed more than their hands.

  24. Tony Little

    OK, on the face of it it looks like a straight swap. So did it “just happen” or was their planning to it?

    If it was planned, how do you get 000s of electorate to ALL vote for their supposed political enemy at the same time? These people will not be appearing at LD branch meetings, so how was it done? (Or am I just a bit slow on the uptake, something I will admit is a possibility)

  25. Capella

    @ Tony Little – you do it in two ways. First select an unknown Liberal candidate who does not campaign.

    Second flood the MSM, the countryside and leaflets with “Vote Ruth Davidson No Referendum Party”. Actual candidate not terribly important. Make sure the BBC tell people how to vote tactically in each constituency.

    Not all the Liberals will get it. But most will.

  26. Peter McCulloch

    As regard to Labour and the Tories.
    Things have changed and no matter what they
    say or how much they try, things aren’t going
    to be as they were before 1997.

    So all the queen’s men and all the queen’s horses
    won’t put it back together again.

  27. JaceF

    Really itching to see the full breakdown of the postal voting figures.

  28. The Isolator

    Tony Little @12.48

    Exactly..something is going on and the question is what exactlyThis analysis makes for very uncomfortable reading in light of a piss poor campaign on the part of the SNP.

  29. gus1940

    Daily Politics continue with he attempted deification of The Ruthsfuhrer.

  30. Tony Little


    I get that – to some extent, but the LD DID have last time’s candidate in a couple of constituencies. It just seems on the face of it to be TOO perfectly done. (Honest, I AM resting the tin-foil hat).

    I try to stick with the principle of NOT considering a conspiracy until other plausible factors have been eliminated. It just ‘feels’ wrong, too easy, too perfect, too convenient that Biggest WM Hitters were the main victims.

    We’ll never know for sure.

  31. Mike Williams

    Maajid Nawaz on LBC describing Davidson as an MP and that she’s prevented a further referendum in Scotland. You couldn’t make it up.

  32. geeo

    Ruth davidson described by Sky news as “the ultimate kingmaker”…..Seen strutting into Downing Street all puffed up in her self importance…!!

    She is a fucking nobody.

    Poor Kez….no invite to lunch at Downing Street for her role in the tory minority government being in No. 10…..wonder then she will figure it all out..?

  33. Effijy

    Does anyone wonder why the Liberals haven’t had a majority for over 100 years?

    It really knocks me for 6 seeing the Liar Carmichael being re-elected.

    The man is a proven and confessed Liar who was willing to allow £1
    Million to be wasted on an Inquiry in order to delay his guilt.

    Do the people of these islands feel that the SNP must improve their lying skills and waste more public money, if they are ever to win a seat up there.

  34. David

    I bet you Willie ( heartburn ) Rennie would bet against his own football team if he thought he might make a few bob, treason never wins, it allways loses in the end, its Karma !

  35. Moreida Lord

    @Tony Little

    I am with you on your thinking… I did expect to lose some seats but the way both Angus and Alex were targeted and looking at the explanation provided by Stu.. it all seems too convenient, too perfect…

  36. Arbroath1320

    Interestingly, I read on Twitter yesterday, someone saying that people were inundated with Tory OR Lib Dem leaflets in numerous constituencies but NOT both! 😉

  37. Robert Graham

    your government despite our best efforts have to introduce a few measures to overcome a shortfall in revenue from westminster to mitigate these cuts , free prescriptions ,free personal care,bus passess , tuition fees ,as of midnight tonight are withdrawn ,in short if you can pay you will pay , on a brighter note the increase in staff req to administer these changes will make a lot of people very happy ,unemployment will fall , capital projects will be cancelled ,the borders railway being one .if you voted yes or voted for this government , no charges will be levied , if you voted tory we will squeeze you till the pips squeak . ha ha i wish

  38. Zephyr

    This is very interesting. I’m still intrigued as to where the various Scottish parties votes went, so I’ve been having a look at the last Scottish Yougov poll prior to the vote. Whilst it doesn’t quite show the correct final vote share, the national swings it shows are interesting. It seems to show a swing of 7% from the SNP to the Tories and a swing of 12% to Labour along with a small, less than 1% swing to the Lib Dems.

    The Labour swing to the Tories is 19% and to the Lib Dems by 2%. Due to the absolute size of the SNP vote in 2015, the swing from SNP to Labour actually works out as a small overall gain for Labour despite losing a large percent of their original vote to the Tories.

    The Lib Dems swing to the Tories was a massive 32% which would tie to what has been seen in some specific seats.

    Overall, the percentage breakdown of the national Tory gain seems to come from 44% Labour, 34% SNP and 21% Lib Dem once you factor in the party vote share in 2015. Obviously this doesn’t play out in each individual constituency but it’s interesting nevertheless. I’ve also ignored all other parties.

  39. galamcennalath

    The Tories aren’t very good at doing stand up, argue their case politics.

    They are however, very effective a stitching up their opponents and manipulating the voters!

    The Tories presented themselves as two separate single policy parties. The deliverers of Brexit at a UK level, and the preventers of ScotRef at a Scottish level.

    They received 28.6% of the vote. It’s not that different from the 25.3% first preference votes for the councils where they ran in a No IndyRef ticket.

    They have now collected, by fair means and more often foul, their max potential vote, IMO.

    That figure of just shy of 30% is one which has recurred over and over. It appears to be the core BritNat, British anti EU, unshakable anti Indy vote. It’s same ballpark figure for people who say in social attitude surveys who would never back Indy under any circumstances.

    We may have reached the point where most of these voters have switched to the Tories.

    That may be good news because it gets most of the BritNats in one basket and leaves the other 70% as potential Indy supporting, depending on the circumstances,

    Achieving that potential, with a lot stacked up against us, is the challenge.

  40. Jo

    It was blatantly obvious what the Lib Dems were up to. The Berwickshire seat had been staunchly Liberal for years even being held by the previous SoS, Michael Moore until 2015. They could easily have challenged the SNP here as Calum Kerr had a tiny majority last time. However, the candidate they selected was a completely unheard of newcomer who did absolutely no campaigning whatsoever. I didn’t receive a single LD leaflet (although got lots of Tory & SNP) and didn’t see a single LD sign. It’s like they and their supporters just lay down en masse and let the Tories take the seat. Disgusting!

  41. Vestas

    By the looks of things we’re near “peak unionism” in terms of Scots voting.

    The “shy tories” have left the LD/SNP and a deal with the DUP is likely to alienate everyone bar the wee frees & LOLs.

    Now there’s still a fair few SNP seats on shoogly pegs but IMHO that’s their own fault. I don’t believe the SNP will force an indyref2 even if a hard brexit occurs. Maybe some of you feel differently but I don’t see them doing what the leaders of Catalonia are doing (facing jail/fines).

    So we have a hard-core unionist vote which is unlikely to get much larger, the BBC not even pretending to be unbiased in Scotland and the SNP swithering about “was it indyref2 that sunk us”.

    If the SNP continue in this vein then we may as well pack up and emigrate.

    The SNP has ONE PURPOSE and that is independence. They have proved they can govern more competently than Westminster so its time to push for indy, not back away.

    If the UK is outside the EU/single market then there won’t be another indyref because the UK will no longer have to abide by CoE rulings.

  42. jfngw

    The Daily Politics telling us that the Tory 13 seats (equivalent to winning 140 at a UK election) is a massive triumph and they effectively should be calling the shots in Scotland. They couldn’t even get the result correct in the graphic.

    Couldn’t listen to the whole interview, it had a one track intent.

    BBC cannot seem to do a report without mentioning the number of seats the SNP lost but nearly always fail to mention they are still miles ahead of the nearest party in seats at 22 (a 232 difference in seats at a UK level).

    It should be clear by now that Orkney and Shetland will return anyone with a LibDem badge, little point wasting too much money trying to win this seat.

  43. HandandShrimp

    It was a UK GE and yet upon election Swinbourne and Jardine had nothing more grown up to say than Holyrood should take Indyref off the table.

    I simply don’t rate the Liberals and given the number of deposits they lost neither does the country.

  44. schrodingers cat

    when brexit hits hard, it will be the tories that get blamed, slab and slib are bit players in the coming indyref2


  45. Juteman

    I’ll say it again. It may not be PC. Incomers.

  46. Charles

    Its now become obvious how the Unionists collaborated in order to consolidate the Unionist vote. My seat in Stirling was solid Labour up until 2015. In this election it was noted that we had not seen one Lib Dem or Labour activist in the streets, not even a single leaflet came through the door, but the Tories walked the streets almost every night, around areas like Polmaise, Fallin and Cowie, communities utterly devastated by Thatcher in the 70s and 80’s.
    This campaign was run from London, and all the Unionists parties have tacitly agreed to stand aside for the strongest challenger against the SNP.
    I think though, this might, just might bring Nicola out fighting, and reclaim the Independence narrative back from the Unionists. Simply call it, when and how her democratic mandate will be held, and kill dead the ‘stop indyref2 campaign’. They will instead need to take to the platform and make their arguments against it, and flush out the loyalties of the Lib Dems and Labour once and for all.

  47. Juteman

    There are half a million incomers from south of the border. Most of them live in ‘nice’ areas. We seem to have lost those areas. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist.
    The poor Welsh have had to put up with it for longer than us.

  48. Margie Davidson

    Cannot comment on any other areas but for the answer in Aberdeenshire and Moray where Alex, Angus and Eilidh all lost their seats look at the Local elections and the make up of the Aberdeenshire Council- this is the collusion with reciprocation one commentator was looking for. The Liberals voted Tory to gain positions in the Council – Leader Tory – Deputy Liberal etc – and look at the make up of the Committees- even some of the so called Independents are aligned to Tories- result – position where extra money and benefits are claimed.
    I live in Eilidh’s constituency and not one Liberal leaflet did I receive.I was inundated with leaflets to Stop the SNP here in Banff and Buchan- how – Only a vote for Ruth Davidson’s candidate. The Lib Dems and labour can’t win here. Not said “cause we asked them to step aside in return for positions on Aberdeenshire Council” Maybe I am wrong but the big picture looks very very dodgy.

  49. manandboy

    Brilliant piece of work, Stu.

    (Sorry, I put this in the previous thread – wrong place!)

    Let’s work this out.

    Theresa May, for months, emphatically insists there will be no General Election, and then suddenly and without warning, she announces that she’s changed her mind.

    Fast forward to the Election and the highly financed and amazingly well coordinated and orchestrated Alliance of the three Unionist parties in Scotland, featuring paper candidates and huge numbers of Unionist voters shifting to a pre-arranged party so as to avoid splitting the unionist vote.
    Such careful organisation takes time, a lot more time than was available after the announcement of GE17 by Theresa May. And yet, the three Unionist parties were more than ready.

    They knew from the start what the plan was when Theresa May first declared there will be no General Election, that this was to lull the SNP into inactivity. Not so Labour, they knew. Jeremy Corbyn announced 6 months ago that he ‘thought’ there would be a General election soon.

    The Unionist organisation for GE17 in Scotland could only have been possible with prior warning.

    In other words, the whole thing was a set up to damage the Independence movement in Scotland. Keeping the SNP in the dark about the GE, while the Unionist parties could do all the necessary planning in secret. Treachery from Westminster against the Independence movement.

    It must be highly questionable that the election was legal. I’m being polite.

    And then it backfired. Almost – thanks to Jeremy Corbyn.

    May isnt bovvered by the DUP’s history or it’s policies, or its association with the UDA terror group. She is only interested in securing power at Westminster SO THAT THE BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT CAN CONTINUE WITH THEIR EFFORTS TO CRUSH THE MOVEMENT FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE.

    This is their top priority. They say it’s Brexit, but it isnt. The Tories have done no work in preparation for the Brexit talks, but they did a ton of work planning the Unionist anti Independence General election campaign in Scotland.

  50. Fred

    Ruth Davidson likely to sit in on the Brexit negotiations, a woman who has never as much as ran a wulk stall!

  51. Sue Varley

    Here in Ian Blackford’s seat, I was expecting a huge push from the LDs. I think we got 3 leaflets, all posted, for the Charles Kennedy replacement – each with picture of the man himself, on the grounds that she used to work for him. I have to say I was disgusted by their use of CK after the way they treated him, but that’s a different issue. We got one each from the Ruth Candidate and from Labour, 2 posted from SNP and 1 hand delivered.

    So while we were not exactly being inundated with Tory/Ruth literature, compared to last year’s Holyrood election when we had a shed load from the Libs, they were not making much effort.

    Loads of farmers had the huge banners for the tory candidate, though the party name only appeared in the small print at the bottom, to be obscured by barley before the actual election. Don’t recall seeing Ruth’s name on any of them either.

  52. Arbroath1320

    Sorry for going O/T here but peeps may enjoy this.

    A certain Mr. D. Coburn is allegedly standing to become leader of some small and insignificant wee political party. 😀

  53. Dr Jim

    Reporting shortbread here, and it’s Ruth Davidson practically bouncing along the road up to number ten grinning from antennae to antennae with all the glee of just having eaten somebodies pet bunny licking the fresh blood from her lips

    So now over to Nick Eardley with news of Nicola Sturgeons much reduced SNP having lost over 20 seats in the General Election, Nick what is the First Minister saying, (silence) Oops! sorry we can’t bring that report right now so moving on here’s some dead babies that Nicola Sturgeon is directly responsible for with her bad SNP

    While we realise there are lots of dim people out there, most of us aren’t so it’s kinda obvious the BBC don’t give a monkeys anymore about suspected bias, now their tails are up they’re just going to say to hell with you Independence types the BBC are not for turning

    Heil Union!

  54. Robert Louis

    Ok, I’m really getting P****d off now.

    Can somebody please tell me why Nicola Sturgeon is in London STILL asking yet again to be part of brexit talks, when the vote in Scotland made it clear, Scots do not want to leave the EU. Would anybody in the know care to explain just how the Scottish Government joining brexit talks is a way to ensure Scotland remains in the EU??

    Serious question.

    Is this some cunning plan to secure EU membership for Scotland? If so, could somebody explain just how it works?

    Seriously after all the comments at the weekend, is the message not getting through to SNP HQ. Do they even realise people don’t want a ‘good brexit deal’ but actually just want to stay in the EU?? We don’t want brexit of any kind.

    On the verge of cutting up my membership card.

  55. galamcennalath

    Fred says:

    Ruth Davidson likely to sit in on the Brexit negotiations

    The loser gets a seat. The party which came second gets a say.

    Well, in that case, Corbyn should get a seat too.

    Never mind losers, what about a seat for the winners!?

  56. Zeebeving

    The conspiracist in me keeps seeing Willie Rennie and Kezia laughing on stage at the Scottish Leaders’ Debate, and wonder what was really behind that.

  57. Arbroath1320

    Robert Louis says:

    Serious question.

    Is this some cunning plan to secure EU membership for Scotland? If so, could somebody explain just how it works?

    Perhaps Craig Murray has the answer RL. Apparently it worked out quite well for Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovenia, Croatia, the Czech Republic and Slovakia all of whom became independent and are now members of the E.U. They apparently all gained their independence through convening an assembly maybe it’s time we switched from calling for an independence referendum to convening an assembly. (We have the numbers to ensure it passes independence motion, MP’s + MSP’s +MEP’s)

    According to this article by Craig convening an assembly is an acceptable method of gaining independence by the U.N.General Assembly. The E.U. obviously have no problems with this method as they have allowed 7 countries to join after doing so.

  58. yesindyref2

    That’s one point of view, as was Dave’s in the other article.

    But the LibDems campaigned on a second EU Ref, while also campaigning against a second Indy Ref.

    We thought that was inconsistent, the media pointed that out, interviews, panel programs, whatever, many occasions, and the people of Scotland very likely thought so too.

    It was a daft split policy, and that probably turned the electorate off the LibDems in a lof of places. I don’t think having EU Ref 2 was a popular option with anybody except hardened LibDems.

  59. starlaw

    Seriously Hope Nicola is just making a pest of herself winding the yoons up. We don’t want Brexit we want Indy and the combined yoons know it .
    The yoons are terrified at the prospects of another Indy Ref but we must wait to see how these talks pan out, but it would be nice to have someone on the negotiating team but it will not happen

  60. Shinty

    Robert Louis – I get where you are coming from, but calm down, non of us should act in haste.
    She is not wandering about in the wilderness, she has a plan (no idea what it is mind)

    She is not going to London for the good of her health, that’s for sure.

  61. Nana


    I’m getting more and more convinced that election was more to do with the threat of indyref2 than brexit.

    Scotland gets mentioned in the interview below. It’s a good thing to keep Scotland in the union, I wish the interviewer had asked him why. Must be cause of our charm and our selflessness in giving away all our revenue.

    Northern Ireland’s DUP ‘are getting a stranglehold on the UK government’

  62. jfngw

    @Robert Louis 2:14

    Political reality. If they are not at the negotiations then you take what the Tories and DUP negotiate if you can’t win a indyref. At this point in time it is not guaranteed it can be won. You can go for the purity of your convictions but you then have to accept you may end up still in the UK and out of the EU on terrible terms. I don’t think most people in Scotland would consider that outcome as a First Minister looking after their interests.

  63. Glamaig

    Nana says:
    12 June, 2017 at 2:28 pm
    ‘Northern Ireland’s DUP ‘are getting a stranglehold on the UK government’’

    Rather striking that in the case of the DUP holding the balance of power, there is no talk of ‘tails wagging dogs’ or images of Arlene Foster nicking dosh out of Theresa’s handbag.

  64. K1

    What it does mean is that any ‘progressive’ coalition that Corbyn may want to form is dead in the water, without Libdem numbers, he can’t make it to a majority?

    But I would put money on Libdem propping Tories if DUP deal falls through, watch as Farron reverses his oft stated we won’t do a deal wi the Tories schtick gets rationalised on the back of ‘strong and stable’ government going into Brexit, he’d have to sacrifice his second EU ref position though…Libdems as Stu just outlined have no problem switching positions to gain influence.

    I’d also offer, this is exactly what those Libdems voted for in a UK election, for a Tory government, not for their Libdem leader. Ming the monstrous will no doubt be ‘advising’ accordingly.

    This aids us, if we’d ended up in a deal wi Corbyn, it would have compromised Scotref. Now it’s clearer where ultra unionism has trumped any ‘liberal’ ideology in those areas in Scotland. It’s also clear there is nothing ‘democratic’ about the Libdems.

    SNP vote held up quite well really, didn’t it, bit like council elections, yes I know they lost a lot of votes across the board, but given a lot a Labour voters are probably still Yes and are still the largest party in Scotland, no too bad at all.

    Oh, does anyone think those that swung for Labour in Scotland on the back of the Corbyn bounce aren’t noticing that Ruth is being promoted far above her actual merit? And potentially placed into Brexit negotiations, on a ticket of ‘soft Brexit’, how do we think that’s going to play out ‘down south’ too?

  65. Nana

    By far the biggest snake in Scotland, opportunistic and a downright liar. Typical Tory really

    Ruth Davidson says she supports staying in the single market, adding to soft Brexit voices in the Conservative Party

  66. yesindyref2

    My feeling is that, for a time, Sturgeon should “go with the flow”, and see what happens. There are now 24 Unionist MPs going down to Westminster, and the eyes of the media wll be on them. But don’t forget these are from Scotland, and the London-based media will also be watching to see if they interfere with UK politics! While Scotland could be wondering if they will manage to achieve what the 56 SNP MPs couldn’t.

    I’d say her strategy should just be wait and see for the next 2 / 3 months, support Davidson’s soft Brexit plans (which are really the SNP’s, but who cares?). There’s no rush, the legislation is in place at Holyrood for Indy Ref 2, the vote has been won, and if it wants to expel us as soon as possible, Westminster will happily push through its S30 Order within a couple of weeks. So Spring 2019 is still on the timetable.

    I will get brickbats for this, but there is the distinct possibility that at this time, having 13 Tory MPs is far far better for Indy, than having none and SNP MPs instead.

  67. Doug Daniel

    I’ve always thought that Lib Dem voters in Aberdeenshire are really just Tories who can’t bring themselves to vote Tory. Ruth’s detoxification of the party means there’s no reason for such folk to keep pretending otherwise. Hark back to Malcolm Bruce’s hate-filled speech at Lib Dem conference a few years back, where he made it clear he hated independence, the SNP and Alex Salmond with as much passion as the most tribal unionist zoomer on Twitter.

  68. Ewan MacKenzie

    It doesn’t affect any conclusions, but the figure shown for the Tory increase for West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine isn’t quite right – increase of 9,000, not 11,000. (Or else the votes figures are wrong.)

  69. Robert Graham

    The BBC can’t help it can they, on their website they give the total for the recent election, which of course includes the obligatory BUT , the BUT this time is if this was proportional representation the amount of MPs the SNP had elected would be reduced, Aye but it wasn’t so what’s the f/in point , no reference to the three voting systems we were gifted by the Unionist parties at the reconvening of the parliament, and surprise surprise we can’t bloody change them, So again I say What’s the bloody point in referencing something that has no bearing, just an excuse to have the daily dig at the SNP , scabby b/rds every one, I wish the SNP could withdraw access to Hollyrood for every one of them, siting a disruptive alien influence, persona non grata ( scabs to the rest of us ) .

  70. John H

    I see that Ruth Davidson is already finding life a little uncomfortable having come in to the spotlight down south. No more cosy BBC Scotland interviews now that she’s among the big boys. Being asked persistently on Channel 4 News if she would be able to work with the DUP, she eventually lost patience and walked out of the interview.

  71. Dan Huil

    LibDums telephone box now letting the attic.

  72. jfngw

    I agree with indyref2, forget the DUP the balance of power is also held by the 13 Tories from Scotland. They now have to put our interests forward or just rubber stamp what May wants.

    I wonder if it has escaped the notice of the media that Scots MP’s now hold the balance of power because they aren’t pointing it out to the voters elsewhere. Also the Tories in Scotland published a different manifesto, admittedly it only had one item, but they have no duty to vote for the one published in England.

  73. Proud Cybernat

    Ruthie-babes digging heels in on Single MArket.

    Haha – Mayhem is only just beginning to realise that Ruth Davidson is secretly working for Nicola Sturgeon.

    Very nicely played FM & Ruthie-babes.

  74. galamcennalath

    Nana says:

    Ruth Davidson says she supports staying in the single market, adding to soft Brexit voices in the Conservative Party

    yesindyref2 says:

    Davidson’s soft Brexit plans

    All quite astonishing because Davidson has been backing TMay’s hard stance for almost a year. She did for a week or two after EURef then towed the London line. Why did she not push soft Brexit before now, especially during the election?

    May went to country to get backing for a hard Brexit, or that was what she claimed anyway.

    May was denied that mandate. So why is May not saying, “I accept the country wants somethings softer”.

    IMO May wants to not be seen backing down.

    Is Davidson really acting against what was policy pre election, disobediently? Or, is she being used as the acceptable ‘soft face’ to push for a ‘soft Brexit’ in an official capacity?

    The barstards operate by scheming. I sense scheming.

  75. Jack Murphy

    “EU nurse applicants drop by 96% since Brexit vote” 🙁

    “Last July, 1,304 nurses from the EU joined the Nursing and Midwifery Council register, compared to 46 in April this year, a fall of 96%.

    The Health Foundation said the findings could not be more stark and said they should act as a “wake-up call……”

    DOWN 96%—–the sooner we’re out of this mad-house of BREXIT UKOK the better for all of us.


    I think Ruth Davidson will be of to Westminster when the opportunity arises and get the top job. What does that say for the people in the North East i think she will sell them out. She has already lied about Brexit and has gone back to being a remainer and demanding a soft Brexit because she know a hard Brexit may bring on inderef. Indiref should be put on the back burner for a while to let the Tories screw Scotland which i think they will.

  77. yesindyref2

    @Proud Cybernat
    hehe, it does make you wonder.

    Actually when I think about it, Indy Ref 2 is automatically off the table at the moment, as if a soft Brexit with EFTA membership and membership of the single market and customs union was achieved, with freedom of movement, there actually would be no mandate for it any more, not according to the amended version of the SNP manifesto, and the SNP compromise plan last December.

    That was impossible or incredibly unlikely before, now it’s looking quite likely.

    But that would cause turmoil in England which really wants a hard Brexit.

    Basically speaking the Onion is peeling and all that’s left is the skin.

  78. Socrates MacSporran

    While I do not think they can totally relax and go on holiday, I reckon the SNP can sit back an let events take their course for the next few months.

    Given the UK Government will be sending an untried virtual team of reserves to the Brexit talks, I do not see them going well, also, Angela Merkel has an election to win, which will hold things up a wee bit.

    OK, we will, later rather than sooner, have a Queen’s Speech and the Queen’s Speech debate to get through – then, Parliament will rise for the long summer recess, and the party conferences, so, not a lot will actually happen before September/October.

    In fact, there could well be a Tory leadership contest to be got through, before real politics starts up again.

    So, the SNP MUST, have a GE debrief, agree what went wrong and how they are going to sort themselves out, and, while they are doing it it would do them no harm to again emphasise, Indyref2 WILL HAPPEN once we know what kind of deal is on offer.

    That single statement alone will make the Unionists go ape shit, since it will show them, they can make all the noise they like, but, they haven’t won.

  79. Proud Cybernat

    “Why did she not push soft Brexit before now, especially during the election?”

    Because now she sees that Mayhem needs her 13 Tory MPs to prop up her Gov. Not even Roofy-babes saw that coming. But there’s always a silver lining for the Bison Whisperer. She knows the SNP have always said that keeping Scotland in the Single Market is what it will take to get IndyRef2 off the table (not forever but certainly for the foreseeable future). It’s about spiking the SNP’s guns for Roofy and she sees this a means to do it.

    Will Mayhem cave in?

  80. jfngw

    Bit of a downer for Tories in England as they are now at the mercy of either the DUP and the Tory MP’s from Wales or Scotland. So any of the three devolved Nations MP’s are now in control of what policy is passed at Westminster. Time to chillax and watch how this unfolds, so I must thanks D. Cameron for chillaxing and now entertainment to go with it.

  81. yesindyref2

    Onyways, all this post-election, Brexit, coalition of chaos stuff, May stay/go stuff really is a political commentator’s wet dream, specially the more balanced and neutral ones. They’re not going to need viaggra to keep it up!

    I think I might just be a little “neutral” in my comments in the media, for a while. Have some fun.

    Right, time for my ham sandwich and cup of tea, and back to work.

  82. Petra

    @ Robert Louis says at 2:14 pm …. ”Ok, I’m really getting P****d off now. Can somebody please tell me why Nicola Sturgeon is in London STILL asking yet again to be part of brexit talks, when the vote in Scotland made it clear, Scots do not want to leave the EU…”

    What do you want her to do Robert Louis? Sit at home and sulk whilst people like Davidson bounce down the street into number 10 getting all of the publicity? Promoting the myth that she’s now in charge of Scotland. That’s exactly what the Scottish Unionist want to see happen. And don’t forget that ALL Scots don’t want to stay in the EU at all. 38% of Scots who voted, voted to leave the EU. Some of them of course we realise are Independence supporters.

    Nicola Sturgeon finds herself between a rock and a hard place. Walking a tight-rope in fact. She’s not an idiot, far from it. Let’s all get behind her.


    And if you don’t mind I posted this on the last article not realising that there was another!

    Good post Dave. Thanks for that and then we’re back to a number of people on here castigating Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. Unbelievable. Unbelievable when you take into account how hard she and her team have work on our behalf. I nearly choked in fact when I read derogatory comments on here about Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson.

    We lost seats because it was a General Election not a Referendum. Many people who voted for Corbyn will go on to vote for Independence. We lost seats due to tactical voting, the use of dark money, the Corbyn surge (straight Labour / Tory battle) and more than anything the MSM propaganda machine. As one example I was watching the news earlier today and when it came to a reporter voicing what Nicola Sturgeon had to say in London not one sound emanated from his moving lips. No doubt they’ll all be having a laugh about that.

    Many people in Scotland voted for the Tories (aka Lib-Dems). How do they feel now with regard to the Tory alliance with the DUP? How do they feel about the DUP’s demands for Farage being part of the team (if that’s the case?). How do they feel about Gove being reinstated? How will they feel as time goes on and they see our fisheries and agricultural sectors being sold down the swanney? How will they feel if Gove, Johnston or whatever loser takes over from May? They no doubt felt that May was ‘strong and stable’ but have been left reeling with the reality. How will Labour voters feel about politicians in NIreland calling the shots for us? How will people feel when Orange Order marches become a weekly / monthly event?

    Sein Fein holds all constituencies across the border. Their popular vote plus SDLP votes and ‘neutral’ parties who supported remain supersedes the Unionist votes by around 15,000 already. Let’s see how this is going to pan out.

    Meanwhile let’s all support Nicola Sturgeon. She’s a brilliant politician who should carry on with her plans with full backing from all of us. She’ll need it as the demonisation and marginalisation, by her MANY enemies, is not going to diminish anytime soon.

  83. Arbroath1320

    Sorry for O/T but Tommy Sheridan is reporting some breaking news from Westminster.

    New Speaker of the House of Commons to be instructed to drop ‘order, order’ from debates and shout ‘no surrender’ instead… 😀

  84. starlaw

    Hard Brexit , Soft Brexit. Britain does not call the shots 27 other countries do, and the reason we are leaving the EU is because Westminster is not running it.
    Westminster will be part of nothing it does not have full control over, Hard Brexit it will be.

  85. Juteman

    Ruth the Mooth said vote for her so there would be no Indy2.
    Now that her party has won, when will we see Treeza announcing that there will never be another Indy ref?

  86. Craig P

    I have never seen the point of Liberal Democrats (OK, except in the 2005 general election and voting against the Iraq War). But even then I knew in my heart it was an opportunistic policy.

  87. Ken500

    Thousands of voters in Scotland, including some farmers and fishermen must be all disappointed they were told lies by Tory/Unionists. They voted Tory/Unionist for Brexit but Tory/Unionists policy (Scotland), now no longer supports it. 3 days after they voted. The changed suggestion being put forward looks rather similar to a SNP (bad) proposal for Scotland which was put forward months ago and was rejected out of hand as totally bad and unworkable. Let Down by Tory/Unionists lies 3 days after they vote. Tory/Unionists copying SNP polices after deceiving voters. Suck it up.

    Wait until thousands of voters in Scotland find out they were lied to. Told voting Unionist would stop another Indy Ref. It can’t. Suck it up.

    Thousand of Unionist voters will be astounded they voted for a Tory/Unionist Party. Now negotiation with a Party of illegal bigotry, murder and crimininality to cobble together a dubious illegal pact to cling to power. An affront to democracy. Suck it up.

    Unionist lies.

    Mugs who are a world laughing stock. Couldn’t manage a brewery. They can’t even read a balance sheet. A lot of angry upset voters. Three days after casting their vote.

  88. Juteman

    Folk are over thinking the issues. To most No/Tory voters, Brexit, Bedroom Tax, Pension Payments and Curlywurly size are secondary. They are British, not Scottish. Especially the 500,000 that moved up here for a life in the country away from dark skinned people.

  89. Sinky

    From the Poet Laureate:

    In which her body was a
    querying her lies; her mouth a
    ballot-box that bit the hand that
    fed. Her eyes? They swivelled
    for a jackpot win. Her heart was
    a stolen purse;
    her rhetoric an empty vicarage,
    the windows smashed.
    Then her feet grew sharp
    stilettos, awkward.
    Then she had balls, believe it.
    When she woke,
    her nose was bloody, difficult.
    The furious young
    ran towards her through the
    fields of wheat.

    – Carol Ann Duffy

  90. AlbertaScot

    So here’s what’s got me buffaloed.

    If Ruth Davidson is now the stud duck of GB politics (all the papers say so, right) then how come, as far as I can tell, only ONE!! Scot-tory in the cabinet?

    The Fluffster.

    Shouldn’t she be up in her tank turret demanding, say, a half dozen or so, sitting at the inner circle table.

    It’s kinda like “you say you love me now but will you still love me in the morning.”

    And the six o’clock alarm just rang.

  91. Petra

    Ruth Davidson (”Brexit will be catastrophic to hard Brexit will be fantastic to soft Brexit is the way to go”) can bleat on all she likes about staying in the single market now (probably to stymie Indyref2). We all know that she suffers from delusions of grandeur, and that the MSM is massaging her giant ego, but I’m afraid that’ll not be the view that will be taken by the EU. Ruth Davidson? Who’s that?

    Twenty seven other countries will be calling the shots, not a representative of ‘strong and stable, lol, UK, and staying in the single market entails accepting free movement of people. If that becomes clear to the 52% who voted to leave, in the main due to immigration, there will be ructions in England.

    And of course the DUP seem to be keen on Farage joining the ‘No Surrender’ club and Gove is back on the scene. These two alone wont consider anything other than a hard Brexit for one minute. Interesting times ahead. Looks as though the Tory party is heading for implosion.

  92. Chick McGregor


    The post betrayal LibDem vote in Scotland mostly went to the SNP.

    What did that leave in the LibDem support? Since the SNP is LoC then ob. it must have been, de facto, RoC/anti indy LibDems in the main, with nowhere, then, to go.

    With the advent of Ruth Davidson’s no surrender campaign and a, to them, scary Corbyn resurgence, is it not unsurprising that a large number of that remaining LibDem support would go Tory?

    Just sayin.

  93. Big Jock

    Ruth Davidson is now sitting in the cabinet talking to May. A place denied to Nicola Sturgeon the First Minister when she had 56 Mp’s and 50% of the vote. Still denied when she has 35MP’s and 37% of the vote.

    Has everyone worked out what Reties next master stroke is. She is going for a soft Brexit. If successful she will claim victory for what Scot’s voted for. She will point to the SNP and say they achieved nothing. Despite the fact that they asked for this for over a year.

    So she will claim to be the champion of the Scots. Her legend will grow and grow fired up by the media. This woman is dangerous. Her next move will to be First Minister of Scotland.

    In the background the Tories will continue with their toxic policies and even a softer Brexit will still hurt the poor. But Ruth will carry on growing her reputation as the champion of normal Scots. The SNP are now being marginalised and I expect Dugdale to follow Ruth’s lead.

    The GE was the beginning of the end for the SNP in the current political narrative and set up. In order to survive they will have to counter this threat. Ruth is a confidence trickster. She deliberately never talks about Tory policy by pitching a battle on the enemies policy.

    It’s dishonest, crude and immoral ,but people often fall for confidence tricks, especially Scots. We have been conned over and over but we(They) still fall for it.

    The trick is to expose the con and make sure the audience see it. People soon get fed up being duped if the trick is there to be seen.

    We live in dangerous times people.

  94. Valerie

    No one can accuse Ruth of being consistent.

    So, now she supports the Single Market? Yet, in Holyrood she and her cohort voted against it.

    This is the duplicity that we see, but Joe Public does not.

    Barrier free trade? More bullshit, because the cost of that is free movement, and you can bet Farage and his moneyed orcs are massing as we type. Aaron Banks has already threatened to unleash his ‘million strong e-mail list’.

    I remember when Gerry Adams on tv was given no sound, the policy being they wouldn’t give him a platform. This afternoon, when he spoke, I’m mesmerized at hearing his voice now. Telling that he spoke for his group. Calmly staked out his ground, and its warm words, but he’s not moving, until DUP meet OLD promises they made, never mind entering into new commitments.

    Folk don’t realise just how hard, in every sense, the NI politicians are. That’s clear from the way DUP demands are holding up the Queens Speech.

  95. Artyhetty

    Lib dems, Liberal party of old, always been soft tories when the chips are down. In NE Eng they were for those who aspired to being middle clarrrss when we were kids lol! Posh peoples’ party. The PPP, I just made that up, oh dear better get on with messing about with the inks eh!


    I see we women are coming out in support for Nicola Sturgeon and thanks for your comment. 🙂

    We won, yes lots voted for the yoons, but glass very much half full imho.

  96. Ken500

    Davidson going down making demands to the hand that feeds her. How long before she is dumped back in her place after lying to voters. Now a small fish in a big shark infested sea. Eaten up and spat out. Out of the depth. After lying to thousands of angry, now delude fishermen, farmers and others. Unionist lies three days after an election. Many extremely angry voters. The backlash starts. They were lied to by their Unionist representative.

  97. yesindyref2

    OK, another random idea into the melting pot.

    In this election the SNP were “put in their place”, and perhaps a lot of the electorate thought they were getting arrogant and complacent, as well as angry and whinging.

    So now, the electorate will be more favourably disposed again to the SNP – and perhaps Indy as well.

    Look for the signs!

  98. Valerie

    @Big Jock

    That’s exactly the strategy, and as we know, Scotland and England press will elevate her to Supreme Being status.

    We can only hope Treeza is crossing the river on a scorpion, because scorpions revert to natural behaviour.

  99. colin Alexander

    Nicola Sturgeon is still begging for soft Brexit and still getting told to get lost by TM.

    People are asking: why? Because NS does not want Scotland taken out of the single market; if Scotland is, then by SNP posturing they are forced go for indiref2; the UK Govt will say no to that toom as support for independence is too high to be a safe bet for the UK Govt; result:

    SNP failed to keep Scotland in the single market; failed to deliver indi-ref2; failed to deliver anything since 2014 – (and they messed that up too).

    That’s not anti-SNP or anti-independence; it’s pointing out the current SNP strategy is a mess.

  100. Ken500

    Davidson will be out on her ear, along with May before much longer. The poison chalice. That’s what you get for telling lies and being found out.

  101. manandboy


    According to one source, the current estimate is of
    29 billion barrels of oil equivalent in Scottish waters, worth about £1 trillion. As yet undiscovered reserves are not included.

    The wealth from that oil, upon Independence, will stay in Scotland.
    Kill Independence, or even just postpone it, and the wealth stays in England, paying for expensive infrastructure and going into the pockets of a few very wealthy people like the shareholders of Shell and BP.

    UK tax payers paid Shell £80Million in tax rebates while Shell paid Norway tax of £2.7Billion – Shell then paid out £7.9Billion in shareholder dividends. For BP it was similar, £200Million in tax rebates. Both companies operate in 24 countries worldwide, only the UK alone received no taxes from either company.(

  102. Ken500

    The SNP (Scottish Gov) has never failed in anything it has done. Dream on.

    Westminster holds the poison chalice on that one. Fail after fail after fail A total embarrassing failure. A world laughing stock. The muck up and mess is unprecedented in world affairs. A danger to the world economy. Trns of debt. Sanctioning and starving its own citizens. Illegal murdering. Psycho bastards. Their own description of their Party.

  103. theblethery

    Patience. The only story in town is Tory failure.

  104. ronnie anderson

    Who you dont want to meet in Nairn at any time time of day.

    The British Army
    In the name of Jesus, Question time (Aberdeen) & he’s still wearing his self made rosette .

    Great start to our wee break lol.

  105. sensibledave

    … just wanting to ask the obvious question … given that most would accept that we (the UK) need to try and do the best deal we can do – what is that you believe Ms Sturgeon can bring to the party in the negotiations for the UK to leave the EU ….. when she doesn’t want to be in the UK – nor leave the EU?

    How much “consultation” did the Scottish government do involving Labour and the Tories in Scotland when there was a vote in indyref2 – or did it go down to the majority view of Holrood (i.e. the SNP view)? And, how much consultation with Labour and the Tories did the SNP do with their “Scotland’s Place in Europe” proposals document, and is it suggested that The SCottish Government should include representation from Labour and Tory MSPs?

    I know this comes across as a little petty – but I am sure you get my point.

  106. davidbsb

    I recall reading that for the Holyrood elections it was mooted a few years ago that Labour could stand as Labour and then stand as the Cooperative Party in order to soak up list votes. The Electoral Commission in a break with its usual toothless acquiescence ruled that was not on.

    If as it looks, the Lib Dems and the Conservatives are effectively just one Party, perhaps a complaint should be made to the EC and efforts made to ensure they cannot stand as two entities in the AM list system.

    Further, there is no way they should both be allowed to put a representative up in TV debates and the like.

  107. colin Alexander

    @ Arbroath1320
    2:24 pm
    @ Robert Louis

    Craig Murray, myself and others suggested UDI. The SNP don’t have the stomach for it. Stu ridiculed it.

    However, there’s nothing to stop the Scottish Parliament asserting Scottish sovereignty. Then convening an assembly to discuss putting that into practice.

    For example currently, saying that Scotland’s Parliament will not recognise a Brexit deal that affects Scotland, unless Scotland has it’s own decision on the matter etc etc.

  108. heedtracker

    Fascinating, but what on earth is going to happen if/when Mayhem’s new horror show collapses and the next GE is announced, in a few months? A lot of school of hard knocks learning went on last week, on all sides.

    Fcuking horrible to think a lying cheat like Carmicheal won, easily too. Where are people’s sense of morality, other than there’s no way in hell Scotland is going to break free? It puts me off Orcadians a lot and I know a fair few well. Bare faced liars like Carmicheal that end up in court should not be put up for election by their party.

  109. Robert Graham

    Reading some websites including this one over the last few days, I get the impression some comments are not quite right, a quick glance at the CIA simple sabotage field manual published during the Second World War points to some of the antics used when people try to undermine an organisation from within, a quick glance at the main points, highlights there use in some of the posts .

  110. Hamish100

    Nicola will put Scotland first your lot put England first and say it’s in the British interest. Scots fishermen will be sold out and hill farmers likewise.
    Honestly you think May gives a shit for Scotland?

  111. Ken500

    A majority in Scotland have not voted for UDI. Not only is it unlawful and not democratic by it is illegal under Scots Law. For a Gov to take action without a mandateor the support of a majority of the electoral. The people in Scotland have not even had a chance to vote in IndyRef 2 yet. The way to go.

  112. yesindyref2

    Hey sensibledave, have you signed up for this yet?

    Go for it!

  113. yesindyref2

    Ooh, ahh, DUP, Arlene Foster, Norn Ireland. You read it her first! Type 31 to be built in Northern Ireland. I bet.

  114. handclapping

    @colin Alexander

    The Scottish Parliament at Holyrood is a creature of Westminster and as such is not capable of being the sort of independent assembly that won the Baltic States their freedom. Their assemblies were called outwith the constraints of the USSR law. Our assembly will necessarily also have to be called outwith the constraints of UK law

  115. Dan Huil

    The MSM likes nothing better than elevating someone to messianic status then cutting them right down to size. Davidson is thin-skinned and immature – her walking away from a recent interview is proof – therefore she is a perfect target.

    Meanwhile the EU sits back and can’t believe its luck. The so-called united kingdom is ripe for screwing. The “Ripe Clause”. I hope the Scottish government is still working behind the scenes with the EU.

    Oh, and god bless Ireland.

  116. heedtracker

    sensibledave says:
    12 June, 2017 at 5:03 pm
    … just wanting to ask the obvious question … given that most would accept that we (the UK) need to try and do the best deal we can do – what is that you believe Ms Sturgeon can bring to the party in the negotiations for the UK to leave the EU ….. when she doesn’t want to be in the UK – nor leave the EU?

    Sensibledave, EU is going to hand UK the hardest Brexit possible.

    What would be the point of giving the UK a soft Brexit, when all the other EU countries that have BBC backed Nigel Farage types of neo fascists waiting, would then be demanding UK’s soft deal?

    Brexit has strengthened the EU immeasurably sensible. Brexit has set back neo fascism in the EU, like UKIP, by a long way.

    Why will the EU hand neo fascism within its own bordersm such a massive boost, by showing them that if they also hold a Brexit ref, like the UK, the EU will also give these Leave countries the bits they like about EU membership but they can also dump the stuff don’t, like what the UK wants?

    Hope this helps sensibledave, you tory crackpot.

  117. Douglas

    In case you missed it, Nina Myskow was on the Wright Stuff C5 today advocating that RD is a future Prime Minister…

  118. Dan Huil

    @Douglas 5:28pm

    Delicious. But what does John McTernan say?

  119. Shinty

    Nina Myskow (had to google her)
    The Bitch on the Box 1980 – sounds about right.

    RD a future PM? Provided Scotland is independent by then she’s welcome to it.(wee fish, big pond comes to mind)

  120. yesindyref2

    Poor Ruth. By the time the Westminster establishment has chewed her up and spat her out, she’ll be a greater advocate for Indy than anyone on this forum, and it’ll be The Scottish Conservative and Independence Party!

  121. Proud Cybernat

    Of course, if the buffalo whisperer ever convinces Mayhem to go for Soft Brexit (even for Scotland) then that does not take IndyRef2 off the table – at least not immediately. That option must still be kept as our ‘get out of jail free’ card because, as many have already stated here, the type of Brexit-world the UK enters into will be decided by the EU27 and NOT by Mayhem or her little Scottish wingman.

    If the EU27 decide Britain is to have the hardest of hard Brexits then the IndyRef2 card must be played in Scotland. We will have little choice and so we MUST keep that option open – keep our powder dry, so to speak.

  122. Dan Huil

    I apologize for this, and I don’t care if it makes me out to be a bit of a hypocrite, but give yourselves a wee treat and visit the Spectator’s coffee house site. Crazy britnat utterly-nutterly comments BTL are absolutely hilarious. Britnats are bricking it big time.

  123. Street Andrew

    And the pundits were saying this was going to be a dull election.

    Politics hasn’t been so much fun since Michael Portillo lost his seat.

  124. galamcennalath

    heedtracker says:

    EU is going to hand UK the hardest Brexit possible.

    What would be the point of giving the UK a soft Brexit, when all the other EU countries that have BBC backed Nigel Farage types of neo fascists waiting, would then be demanding UK’s soft deal?

    I am convinced that the Tories are now trying to manoeuvre into a position where they can go soft on Brexit. And Davidson, as a popular character among Tories, is part of the plan.

    The awful campaigning and manifesto of May might even have been part of the plan, though honestly I’m not quite sure of that.

    There is a lot of evidence that the Tories have been engineering an acceptable escape from hard Brexit.

    To be honest, I don’t want a UK soft Brexit because it makes Indy more difficult. Scotland doesn’t vote for Tory governments and it didn’t vote for Brexit. We need away from idiots who do.

    To your point …. I hope you are right. Even if the neo-Tories now ask for soft, the EU says, “not that soft!” Yes, the EU’s primary objective will be to prevent this happening again.

    To achieve Indy, I believe we need nasty Tories doing nasty things with nasty outcomes. The EU might ensure that is what happens! Then enough Scots will want out.

  125. Legerwood

    It must be galling for Mrs May knowing she called an election to get rid of the saboteurs, as the Mail called them, those who would dilute the hard Brexit programme such as the SNP.

    Then after the election is all over realise that a prime saboteur has just walked in the door and into a position of power, Ms Davidson and her talk of a soft Brexit.

    Truly they deserve each other.

  126. yesindyref2

    @Dan Huil
    I had a wee look btl on the Express early hours this morning and it was similar. Desperation and confusion!

    Poor things, it’s no longer Sturgeon they hate (who that?), but May.

  127. Free Scotland

    @Dan Huil at 5:33

    I might have missed it, but did McTernan predict the outcome of GE 2017?

  128. Dr Jim

    If a referendum’s the only way to leave the UK I understand and accept that as being the democratic way for most folk, but until then I don’t live in the UK I live in Scotland unless anyone can show me the referendum the people of Scotland voted in to join the UK

    But of course the English only have a receipt or bill of sale for that

  129. Terry

    We were always going to take a bit of a hit while brexit was just now popular with some voters.
    However nicola stood up and fought for refugees and eu citizens. Am proud of her. Brexit will unravel.

    Heads up peeps. They monitor this site. Don’t wash your dirty linen in public.

    I was gutted over alex in particular. He is the politician of our time. Their plan to derail him worked. For now. He will be back.

    That episode was called “The Empire Strikes Back”.

    Next it’s “Return of the Jedi”.

  130. Ken500

    This could play out for years with the obvious negative effect on the economy. The economy is tanking now. In decline, Imagine this mess going on and on and on. The IndyRef2 will be within two years. It has to be to protect the Scottish economy. With major support for it. Get ready for the campaign. Just the date to be set. The Tory/Unionists have really mucked up now.

    Thousands of voters in Scotland have found out they were lied to by Davidson and the Tory/Unionists. 3 days after they cast their votes. Their representatives lied to them. On many issues Betrayed them. How deceitful is that? They must be raging.

    The DUP criminals have been backing up the Tory/Unionist criminals since 1928. While they flaunted UK Law with impunity. A Law unto themselves. Finance by UK taxpayers. Embezzlement, fraud, bigotry. Getting away with murder. Foster is a criminal she should be in jail not formulating UK Gov policy. An absolute disgrace. Embezzling and wasting £Billions of UK taxpayers money. Illegal fuel schemes etc. Illegally giveing public money to her cohorts and associates.

  131. davidbsb

    @ Robert Graham. If it was a PR election and assuming the votes were cast the same, Jeremy Corbyn would be PM today. And there is no saying how people would have actually voted knowing their votes actually counted. Indeed what parties would exist at all?

  132. mike d

    Juteman 12.11pm.looks like it. The cuckoos in our nest.

  133. TheWasp

    Former Scottish Tory MP on 5 live now, deifying the tRuthless one, and BBC gimp lapping it up. ffs….

  134. mike d

    Great english guys n gals backing indy .but I’m getting a bit f****d off by all the cuckoos in the nest. Somethings gonna give. You’re either for us or against us.

  135. K.A.Mylchreest

    @ Handclapping

    “Our assembly will necessarily also have to be called outwith the constraints of UK law”

    That may well be the case, but what exactly would that involve and how could it be done while retaining a democratic mandate?

  136. mike d

    They are doing to us what they have have done to Wales. Wake up Scotland ffs.

  137. theblethery

    And with RD storming out of TV interviews due to DUP views she is showing her emotional inability to hold the party line.

    Was it not bad enough her holding the rape clause line – is there no issue worthy of her indignant resignation?

  138. mike d

    Memo to English people moving to Scotland. We want to be an independent country. If this is not acceptable to you. Then don’t f****g come here.

  139. Connor MCEwen

    galamcennalath @ 1.27
    vestas @ 1.34.

    aye tae that

  140. yesindyref2

    @mike d “You’re either for us or against us.”

    There’s maybe 10% for “us”, and maybe 10% against “us”.

    The rest are in-between. Marginalisation loses 80%.

  141. yesindyref2

    @ mike d: “Memo to English people”

    Get To Fuck with your anti-English shite.

  142. heedtracker

    galamcennalath says:
    12 June, 2017 at 5:54 pm

    I get your points but soft Brexit is just not an option in Brussels. The EU is pretty centre left, even centre right Germany is nothing like the neo fascism, neo-con creep show we have to endure in the UK.

    They’re fully aware of real threats from the right in various countries, ably boosted by the UK, BBC and so on. Then ofcourse, Trump’s crew detest the EU aswell. Or just another neo fascist.

    So hard Brexit is all that’s waiting for Dear Leader, should she last til the end of this week even.

    If they’re lucky, our imperial master baiters might get away with a Norway style deal.

    And then its going to be up to massed ranks of tory BBC led spin docs that have to sell what’s coming as a UK triumph, until Brexit economic slump kicks in.

  143. Sue Varley

    Sensible says:
    “… just wanting to ask the obvious question … given that most would accept that we (the UK) need to try and do the best deal we can do”

    First off, don’t agree with your premise. Quite a lot of us don’t want any kind of deal, we want to be in the EU. Whatever kind of “deal” they end up negotiating, it is going to be worse than being in the EU. The best possible deal is where we stay in the EU but on worse terms than we have at present, anything else will be worse than that and I want no part of it. I am however content for England/Wales to get what they think is “the best deal” for them, since they did vote to leave.

    “– what is that you believe Ms Sturgeon can bring to the party in the negotiations for the UK to leave the EU ….. when she doesn’t want to be in the UK – nor leave the EU?”

    Nicola is concerned with the people of Scotland and would try to get the best possible deal for us – it’s her job. No-one else will try to do that. She shoud be there to protect our interests – we did vote Remain after all.

    “How much “consultation” did the Scottish government do involving Labour and the Tories in Scotland “…

    Don’t see what this has to do with it – Scottish Govt. is not asking to consult with UK Lab or UK Tory parties, they want Scot Gov to be represented along with UK Gov at Brexit negotiations, it is not party political but national government. If SNP were not the Scottish Gov they would have no justification for a say in the negotiations, but they are the Scottish Gov and as such they represent the Scottish people and have a duty to look out for our interests.

  144. Dave McEwan Hill

    Will the LibDems row, unwillingly they will say, to Treeza’s rescue.
    They got vast amounts of literature posted expensively into Argyll and Bute and East Dumbarton. Perhaps the other seats. I don’t know. They have no money whatsoever in Scotland and still owe the Police for security at their conference. Did they agree to throw the other seats to get support in the few they thought they could win?

    Will they get back into government? You know -in the “national interest”. National stability and all that.

  145. McDonnell

    Did Brian Taylor just say the Tories won the election in Scotland?

  146. Marcia

    It was nice to go through Leuchars on the way to St Andrews today and see some of Stephen Gethins posters still up in some of the windows. 2 vote majority. The Lib Dems were furious at the result. 🙂

  147. Dr Jim

    I do hope Scots are listening, once again BBC reporting Scotland Bryan Taylor tells the nation that in England Theresa Mays Tories lost but in Scotland team Ruths Conservatives won the election

    Not even a hint of subtlety, just flat out blatant propagandised lies

    And they wont stop

  148. Blair Paterson

    Margaret Thatcher said When the SNP had enough MPs only then would they have a mandate for independence well we had 56 MPs and instead of declaring udi the SNP did nothing we all know udi under their rules is not legal but to hell with their rules if you obey them you will never be free yous will be blogging on here for a hundred years and getting no where with all your charts etc I had no tlmefor thatcher or her ilk but she showed you how to use power when you had it a thing the SNP dont seem able to do or are afraid to do .,and all the time we are being receiving more lncomers who nearly all vote no please SNP deny them the vote to decide the future of our country it is like Wallace standing watching his enemies taking the high ground and doing nothing

  149. yesindyref2

    @Dave McEwan Hill “still owe the Police for security at their conference”

    Seems to be me day for doing this, but … that is not true. There was no bill sent to the LibDems, so no bill to pay. Police Scotland rightly complained about the cost but as policing was and is devolved, the Home Office refused to pay the cost.

    There was no bill.

  150. jfngw

    BBC report it is the best Tory result since 1983. So taking a look at 1983 and comparing to 2017:

    Tories have lost over 50,000 votes
    Labour have lost over 230,000 votes
    LibDem have lost over 500,000 votes (SDP in 1983 but same difference)

    SNP have gained over 640,000 votes

    The 2015 result is not representative, until 2015 the SNP vote has languished at under 500,000. It is now almost double this and given the media onslaught has held up well. The intent was to reduce the number of seats to below 30, it failed.

  151. galamcennalath

    heedtracker says:

    If they’re lucky, our imperial master baiters might get away with a Norway style deal.

    I would consider that at the soft end of the soft spectrum. Pay in similar to now, so escape a big divorce bill. Free movement of EU citizens. Trade freely. I think that would be too lenient and not a strong enough disincentive to others. And an extremely hard sell to the fascist fringe.

    The EU offer is likely to be harder, IMO.

    We can but hope the Tories get into a total muddle between the EU and their own mad bad right.

  152. Dan Huil

    @Blair Paterson 7:03pm

    I think there’s a fair chance Scotland will regain its independence without a referendum. As you imply, it’s all in the timing. Sooner or later it will be a case of “F*ck it. What have we got to lose? UDI it is!”

  153. Dr Jim

    @mike d

    There’s no crime in not liking something and I don’t see it quite as simply as anti something but do I understand you to mean you’re unhappy that folk are transferring their homes to Scotland while demanding the freebies that are not on offer in England and then voting for the same Unionist parties who impose less people friendly policies down south but trying to impose the same Unionist parties upon us here in Scotland while still demanding we stay part of the Union that causes the problem

    If that’s your complaint then I for one agree with you and I’m half English
    So complainers what’s wrong with that argument because I can’t see anti English in it, It’s just anti bad attitude of freeloaders no matter where they come from

    I hope I’ve represented you correctly Mike because if it is just anti English for the sake of it, well that’s just not cool man

  154. Ken500

    The former Russian states – satellites. Got their right to decide their destiny. After massive public campaigns, protests and organisation. When the USSR could not manage to afford to keep on banking them because of the colossal increasing debt. The barriers come down and then they were free. Freedom of travel etc. Gorbachev gave their officials an agreement, there would be no invasions etc, as had happen previously. Ie Hungary 1956. Germany (EU) gave them support and bailed them out for a certain period until their economy improved. They paid back. Many gained (associate) membership of the EU. 1980’s. Similarities?


    The Time of Thatcher reign of terror in Scotland. Until Devolution. SNP’s Scottish Gov protection of Scotland. SNP standing up for Scotland against Westminster Tory/Unionist aggression in Scotland. Still much room for improvement. e.g. Independence. For a more prosperous, equal, happy country. With an economy based on the majority wishes and the public interest.

  155. McDonnell

    Tories asking for all parties backing in Brexit talks.
    This after not consulting and not listening.

    Go on yourselves -its not as if you would make a mess of it.
    We are already in this mess due to the incompetence of Cameron and then May.

    No matter the outcome the BBC can always present it as a victory for the “country”.

    Any pact with DUP is irresponsible. Coalition of Chaos. Aye right!!!

  156. galamcennalath

    Another scenario might be unfolding where the Tories’ idea of soft Brexit is still all the good bits and few of the bad bits. They put their ‘new soft case’ and it gets rejected as unworkable, however the Tories claim they were being reasonable and blame the EU for being intransigent.

    (A bit like what Nicola probably tried to do. Be reasonable but hope for failure.)

    So they appease both the soft wishers by pretending to try, and the hard case nutters by ending up with no deal.

    I honestly don’t know. However, nothing would surprise me. The simple truth is, I take nothing the Tories do or say at face value. My default is to assume it’s some sort of scam!

  157. heedtracker

    galamcennalath says:
    12 June, 2017 at 7:06 pm
    heedtracker says

    Yes but the right in England wont tolerate Freedom Of Movement. They may fudge it though, that would make some pragmatic sense. They’re good at fudge spinning, look at BBC Scotland shysting us now with the great tory in Scotland non triumph spinning.

    Worst of all, thanks to proud Scot buts, this has all got absolutely fcuk all to do with any Scots, listen to the our English chums howling shut your mouth wee jimmy crankie across the web today. And who’s shouting loudest, proud Scot buts, red and blue tory.

  158. Ken500

    ‘The best election result since 1983.’ The UK population number has increase considerably since 1983. Of course the electoral voting base will have increased since 1983. Because of demographics. Poor journalism? Not comparing like with like. ie percentage analysis. There was no hung Parliament in 1983. That’s for sure. That’s why Thatcher could put the boot in with no respite. Especially in Scotland. Illegally lie, cheat and starve people. Massive unrest. Mass unemployment, especially in Scotland. Appalling. The usual Tory/Unionist mess. Poll tax. Illegal wars. Slagging off Scotland while she illegally took every resource and lied about it. Wasting it. Comparable.

    Until the Labour/Unionist ascent. Same outcome. Lie after lie. Illegal wars, banking fraud and massive increasing debt. Some people do not realise how much the SNP Scottish Gov is doing such a great job protecting Scotland. Use it. Or lose it. Get out and vote every time, No worries. There is no room for complacency.

  159. heedtracker

    galamcennalath says:
    12 June, 2017 at 7:13 pm
    Another scenario might be unfolding where the Tories’ idea of soft Brexit is still all the good bits and few of the bad bits.

    Its not like that though. UK has nothing to deal with, other than literally kicking out EU immigrant residents from the UK.

    Its the 4 EU principles of freedom in Europe and Brussels are going to tell whoever it is that does end up UK leader, accept the 4 principles and we can deal, otherwise you get nothing.

    Its what the right in England really want anyway, Rule Britannia, Empire 2 etc.

  160. Marco McGinty

    You know, before the election, I was questioning the lunacy of Scottish Labour and LibDem voters freely giving their votes to the Tories, because there’s not a chance that the Tories would reciprocate.

    Patsies suns them up perfectly.

  161. Dave McEwan Hill

    Looking at the Gordon result it looks like the increase in the LABOUR vote may have cost Alex Salmond his seat -and given Tory May another seat. Well done Labour.

  162. mike d

    6.41pm yesindyref2. My wife,daughter,and grandkids are English. I am so pro English you wouldn’t believe it. So don’t you f****g dare accuse me of being anti English. I am f****g anti white settler tory voting scum coming to my country and imposing their ideology on my country.

  163. art1001

    Working in the Netherlands at the moment. Everyday someone asks me about Scotland, independence and how the UK is seen as a basket case/joke.

    They all agree Scotland should be independent. I stress that we are kept in a cellar by the UK Regime. That they rig the elections through dark money and postal vote manipulation. That any self-respecting Scot/human being should be pro-independence. Goes down well.

  164. heedtracker

    Aye, and how much did the tories, blue and yellow spend from which donors? BBC Scotland gimps will no doubt be looking into it.

  165. Big Jock

    I think we all agree that there a variety of reasons why the SNP have lost support.

    My take on it is that we have become a party of government and devolution. Pre 2007,all the SNP talked about was independence. Why? Because they had nothing to lose. Once we became a government we spent a term proving ourselves. It was seen as a stepping stone to independence.

    We then got a referendum which we lost. We were still the government in Holyrood so went back to point A a party of devolution. We won a landslide in 2015. But we then stopped talking about independence. We became our slogan “Stronger for Scotland”

    But in what sense. Shouting at Westminster. Mitigating bad Tory policy at Holyrood. In the last 2 years the SNP have sat and waited but never really mentioned independence.

    The vow was broken and we did nothing about it. We ran GE 2017 like 2015. We have become a party who are terrified of losing power. We are not an independence party anymore.

    People need a cause. We need to get back to 100% belief in independence. That’s how we fight back. Stop being feart.

  166. Ken500

    That was a LibDem Bill for policing in Scotland, a LibDem national UK conference. A few people and a dog. It is not a devolved responsibility. It is a matter for the LibDem management. They decide to decamp to Scotland for their National UK conference. (because it was cheaper?).That expense was their responsibly. An electoral expense. They have plenty money to illegally fund and over fund electoral campaigns in Scotland. Committing electoral fraud? Now being investigated. Then disappear over the border welshing on their expenses. They should have been sued. It was an legitimate expense. Shysters.

  167. mike d

    7.o8 pm Dr jim. Thank you,there was nothing racist in my statement. I was simply stating a point. Nothing i will ever apologise for.

  168. mike d

    Big jock. 7.40pm your posts about what’s happening now in Scotland are the only ones that make sense. Down here in England it was about austerity. In Scotland it was about independence. Let’s call it now in Scotland about what it’s for. INDEPENDENCE.

  169. yesindyref2

    @Dr Jim
    mike d said: “If this is not acceptable to you. Then don’t f****g come here”

    So is it going to be an entry requirement to inclusive Scotland for all people moving here, from other EU countries, the US, Canada, any other country that they support Independence?

    And what about the native indigenous Scots here who don’t support Independence, are we going to ship them out to a penal colony on, oh, say, the Antarctic?

    He said: “Memo to English people moving to Scotland.”

    So why indeed single out the “English people”, why did mike d. NOT include other EU residents who move here daily?

    Are Irish people more acceptable than English, French?

    What happened to “inclusive”?

    Whether or not they support Independence for Scotland.

    And as for this: “We want to be an independent country.”

    Some of us do, some of us don’t. That’s democracy.

  170. heedtracker

    art1001 says:
    12 June, 2017 at 7:35 pm
    Working in the Netherlands at the moment. Everyday someone asks me about Scotland, independence and how the UK is seen as a basket case/joke.

    See if you can show them tonight’s serving of BBC Scotland news attack propaganda, a florist in Sterling says she’s been in the SNP for 34 years and voted Ruth Davidson party last week because she wants a soft brexit and needs to keep buying Dutch flowers.

    This week is clearly the launch of the most aggressive anti SNP and anti indy BBC campaign we have ever seen.

  171. mike d

    Yesindyref2,so what’s your point? F**k independence for the natives and every tom dick and Harry can vote against it?

  172. Liz g

    Big jock @ 7.40
    I never saw it like that
    Nicola was very clear….That she would go on working under Westminsters rules cause that’s what people voted for.
    But the next time we wanted a referendum the demand had to come from us.
    I don’t see where she has deveated from that position at all
    As we all know this early move for Indy ref 2 was voted on by us as well
    We need to create the demand that bit she can’t do

  173. Nana

    James o’Brien calling out the media for not taking politicians to task

    Here’s the problem, full on propaganda from the bbc
    video here

  174. mike d

    Yesindyref2. What is so racist or wrong about saying to immigrants to our country,that it’s wrong for them to deny us our independence in a vote ‘that we have given them “they choose to come here and better themselves. So f**k you and your pc sh**e.

  175. Phronesis

    A very cogent overview of the EU situation- Brexiteers will be enraged. The EU seems to have the measure of the current situation even if UKOK remains insightless. No-one in the EU negotiating team seems to be waiting for any pearls of wisdom from the recently discovered leader of Scotland in the dysfunctional, decrepit Union.

    ‘That said, the balance of the different risks now facing the future of the May government – even of the longer term Conservative party political project – does hint at some downplaying of the attractions of a hard Brexit. It increases the odds on the UK now opting for something pretty close to full participation in both the EU Single Market and Customs union.

    That, of course, will mean the UK having to accept the obligations which go with any such privileged access – acceptance of EU law and jurisdiction by the European Court of Justice, settlement in full of outstanding debt to the EU and continued de facto EU budget payments for participation in cooperative projects in the fields of science, research and environmental protection.

    If and when such an agreement is reached it will have to include a possibly lengthy transitional period – to prepare the UK for life outside the EU – which could be longer than London envisages and during which the EU legal system will remain in force.

    The powerful Eurosceptic right wing of the British Tory party will be very quick to pick up on any first slight sign of a new, more compromising line emerging in Brussels from the UK negotiators. When they do, one may expect the Tory party to return in short order to its habitual state of internal civil war.

    Given this prospect, May may find it expedient to throw in the towel before she gets her eviction notice from Number 10 Downing Street. Whoever then has to accept this poisoned chalice will have little reason to be grateful.
    Taken together, the political odds now seem to point to a second UK general election later this year. The voting public may well be unenthusiastic at this prospect. But, if it becomes unavoidable, the odds must be on a second election returning a Labour government led by its left wing leader, Jeremy Corbyn, whose brilliantly successful election campaign has stunned most of the British political establishment and media commentariat’

    The problem with smashing tomorrow is that you destroy the future, including your own.

  176. schrodingers cat

    hard brexit, soft brexit, good deal….. meh, sound bites strictly for the birds

    eu brexit agenda

    1. eu nationals in the uk and uk nationals in the eu
    2. costs, for leaving
    3. mitigations for some industries (not finance probably car exporters) which will kick in when we leave for a 3 year period
    nb, mitigations by uk being under WTO rules

    treeza, corbyn nor sturgeon can change this, im glad nicola’s request was rejected (so is she i bet)

    we know the uk cannot be in the SM, the eu have already said so,
    (see DD’s talk with skys adam bolton)
    but that shouldnt stop nicola for demanding treeza secures this, it will enable nicola to blame treeza when the sh1t hits the fan as we fall out of the SM. this is the reason roothy has now changed her position again.

  177. yesindyref2

    @mike d
    I think both your last replies to me speak for themselves.

  178. schrodingers cat

    should read treeza, corbyn nor sturgeon CANT change this

  179. stewartb

    O/T Channel 4 News tonight reports that Jeremy Hunt, the re-appointed Tory Secretary of State for Health (who has a remit, SUPPOSEDLY, only in England) has a big, imminent challenge and decision to influence – namely over NHS England funding and over access to medical staff recruitment from the EU post-Brexit.

    Of course, Mr Hunt has direct access to influencing the Cabinet of the new Tory Government that now seems to have a majority in the de facto parliament of England.

    And his influence, and his Tory government’s responses, will have a really important impact on funding (via Barnett) and on recruitment options available to the Scottish government and NHS Scotland.

    Is it not hugely re-assuring that the (non-MP) leader of the Tory opposition in Scotland now also has access to this Tory Cabinet (- thanks to BBC Scotland for showing me her presence at Cabinet today!), and together with Mr Mundell, can now speak up for NHS Scotland’s needs as a substitute for our elected SNP government and NHS Scotland?

    I guess in North Britain, we the Scottish public, our MSPs and SNP Government just have to wait around and see what Mr Hunt and the de facto English parliament decide on health spending and access to EU staff. Isn’t this devolved settlement wonderful?

  180. Thepnr

    Liberal Democrats what a laugh that is, straight into bed with the Tories here in Scotland.

    The party of home rule? That just sounds ridiculous now.

    Can’t really fathom out how it was done though for so many Lib Dems to switch to Tory. Surely not possible through word of mouth only so can only have been the influence of the newspapers and BBC.

    That lot did provide handy guides though on where tactical voting would be worthwhile and this was a lot more effective than a wheel produced by the Unionists in 2015.

    The SNP are in a pretty difficult place right now with only 37% of the vote so I agree with many others. They shouldn’t rein back but go on the attack instead.

    Let’s stand up and be counted, can’t rely on winning after 2020 so throw caution to the wind. It doesn’t mean that the SNP must call an election but they surely must test the water.

    Independence should from now be the number one item on the agenda, shout loud and hard and see the response. Definitely don’t let the Tories of any colour dictate the agenda.

  181. Michael McCabe

    Just a Thought. Now that Ruth (Doing Unionism Proud) has 13 Scots Tory MPs she should be telling Strong and Stable to drop the rap- Clause or forget about there Support for her Government. can we start a petition to ask Ruth to do that now that she has the Numbers to make that Happen. Just a Thought.

  182. Liz g

    Well, Well, Well
    It’s looking like Ruthie’s job is to demonstrate that Scottish MP’s can be powerful in Westminster.
    She gets a soft Brexit position in a few days, something that Nicola and her MP’s couldn’t do in all those months.

    Now we all know that is the democratic deficit right there,but that’s no how it will be reported.
    If they start to say lead the UK not Leave the UK I swear to Lucifer I will throw up.

    It will be the same when Corbin gets in Scottish Labour MPs and Kezzia will be getting a platform.

    We are, I think, being taught that we should not waste or votes on anything other than the only two parties that can form a government

  183. David Lawson

    All the points made (that I could read by skimming since there are too many to read in depth) are well made. In particular the points about why, in almost all cases, the SNP vote fell and the conservative vote increased. Yes, there was tactical voting. Yes, Kezia Dugdale must be squirming over her promotion of a unionist alliance by encouraging normally labour voters to vote conservative thereby essentially preventing a UK labour victory. Nevertheless, given all these arguments, I would have expected the SNP vote to have remained roughly the same despite the combined Lib Dem/conservative/labour challenge; but it didn’t, it fell!
    So why, as seems the case, did previous SNP voters vote conservative? I remember the fifties and sixties when the conservatives had consistently large numbers of seats – particularly the fifties when they were the majority party in Scotland. Where did they go? In particular, where did they go after the Thatcher and post Thatcher eras? OK, I guess some would be Blairites but I reckon most would have shifted to vote SNP as the only way to challenge what was a traditional labour stronghold in Scotland. With the almost complete annihilation of Scottish labour at the 2015 election, they no longer needed to vote SNP to challenge labour as they could see it was no longer an electoral threat. Coupled with that, Ruth Davidson’s cultivation of the “orange” vote and the rally to the flag brought them back to their natural preference. Thus SNP votes dropped and conservative votes increased. I’m not really complaining about their switch, they are entitled to vote however they wish, but I feel, despite enjoying their vote for SNP for the last decade or so, they were not really supporters of independence. I believe this is why we lost the 2014 referendum since if all those who voted SNP were independence supporters, we would have won. As we know, many voters for SNP voted No in 2014 and it’s my contention that this is the reason why.
    So where does that leave us – better or worse? I would argue better; not only because I’m naturally optimistic, but because now it would appear that those who voted SNP in the 2017 election are truly supporters of independence (including many of those previous conservative voters who now believe in independence). Further, with 35 Westminster seats, this is a huge increase in firm support for independence from a few decades ago. So we are changing hearts and minds! What we have to do now is to continue to promote the benefits of independence and develop a momentum for self determination covering all pro-independence political movements. I think statesmen like Alex Salmon and Angus Robertson could be seminal in this as this pair, in particular, embody the intrinsic fairness and logic of an independent Scotland. They would be able to dispel the anti-independence myths and highlight the improvements made already by the SNP to Scottish society (I particularly like Grouse Beater’s list). So let’s not despair. Let’s celebrate the increase in our core support and work to make our country a better place. There is still many hearts and minds to be won but sometimes it’s good to look back and see how far we have come.

  184. Breeks

    Wholly unscientific, just based on a poll sample of 1.

    The economy. I don’t believe the SNP is mishandling the economy. It’s a lie. Anybody who claims to have switched their allegiance away from the SNP because of its economic credentials must have been living down a rabbit hole these last couple of years and never taken the time to think what Brexit is going to do to our economy. If the SNP was responsible for Brexit, then you might have a point. But it wasn’t the SNP who brought Brexit upon us, it was Westminster Tories. The SNP is the only political party in the country striving to provide its commerce and economy with a lifeline to save itself from the epic act of economic self harm of Brexit.

    Education. I don’t have kids of school age, so I’m removed from schooling issues and curriculum issues, but for the record I would rather see Scottish kids scoring 80% for a History exam about Scottish history rather than scoring 90% for a History exam about Britain and the Empire. Furthermore, a few % points on an exam pass has fleeting relevance to anything. Exiting University with a healthy five figure debt, or worse, not going to University at all because you can’t afford it is NOT the product of a Government caring about the education of its people, but it is the product of a Govenment caring about the education of its privileged.

    The NHS? Our NHS is the biggest jewel we have in our wee country. It is absolutely disgraceful to criticise the performance of our NHS when South of the Border the English NHS is in absolute turmoil, and about to get worse when EU Nationals lose their rights to remain. There are already NHS doctors allowing patients to jump the queue if they’ve got the money to pay. We have an SNP government which has sworn to protect our NHS. Westminster has Liam Fox engineering US Trade Deals with American Healthcare Corporations who want to carve up the English NHS and make private Health insurance a vital necessity for all.

    If you seriously think the SNP government is faltering or letting us down, I have a tip for you. Stop watching the BBC. Tell your friends to stop watching the BBC. Tell your kids and your parents to stop watching the BBC.

    I say all this as a non-SNP member, who many of you know me as happy to give the SNP a mauling when I reckon it deserves it, but this failing performance narrative is just absolute propaganda.

    The real problem we have in Scotland is the absence of any effective countermeasure to challenge the ubiquitous nature of BBC propaganda which poisons every aspect of Scotland’s political discourse, and I mean every single molecule.

    EVERYTHING that is negative in Scotland right now, everything from fishing to broadcasting, is as easy or as difficult an issue to fix as Westminster makes it, or Holyrood makes it. It’s a straight choice and don’t be told it isn’t. If Scotland had a weak policy where English practice was better, then an Independent Scotland would not have to sell out its sovereignty to adopt that policy. Truth be told however, I firmly believe the reverse scenario would be different, and that more often than not England would be following Scotland’s lead and be green with envy while doing it. It is an absolute myth to believe Scotland needs the Union to affect ANY improvement to our domestic circumstances. There is no decision Westminster might make which Holyrood couldn’t make for itself.

    The direct opposite is true. The Scottish economy and integrated fabric of our Society far from benefitting from the Union, has been impeded and held back by decades of chronic underinvestment and short sighted exploitation, and even now, already floundering beneath UK debt and Labour PFI, it is now being dragged towards the Brexit Abyss as a consequence of fickle, ill considered, English xenophobia and delusions about immigrants, refugees and terrorists coming to the UK to flee the war zones and terror militias which UK foreign policy and warmongering has been so instrumental in creating. Do we really want to see ourselves forever joined at the hip with that??? I don’t.

    It isn’t better SNP government that we need, they are doing wonders with precious little room to manoeuvre, hemmed in on all sides from a belligerent dishonest media running out of control and an unholy trinity of Unionist parties who would jump into bed with the DUP while they refuse to engage with the SNP’s efforts to find a middle way out of Brexit. It isn’t the SNP who is out of step with rational civilised conduct, the SNP is only one standing by their principles and doing their job with such integrity that the rabid media will allow.

    What we do need, and need both badly and urgently, is diligent, impartial, apolitical broadcast media which circumvents the current media circus in Scotland and allows Scotland to become much more politically literate and better informed about the true circumstances we are living in and the real issues which will have a material impact on our future.

    I call on our SNP to do themselves and the whole of Scotland a massive favour and do whatever may be necessary, be it borderline illegal or risking disproportionate retribution, but get Scotland its own broadcasting network which is beyond the clutches of the UK Establishment. This omission and missing capacity is the root cause of ALL that ails and inhibits us. This, above all other things, is the biggest and most potent threat to our deliverance. We CANNOT fail in this. We MUST NOT fail in this. But we are so very short of time to see it done.

  185. schrodingers cat

    all things to all men etc, seen as an alternative to labour by some and the toxic tories by others.

    after 5 years in coalition with the tories in the 2015 ge, the only seats they held were ones where labour were not the main contenders

    same in scotland were all left wing supporters abandoned them, since then it has been a haven for tories who couldnt vote for the toxic tories. in 2016, ruth changed that. last week these tories finally showed their true colours.

    if there is another ge this year, libdems will struggle to remain even slightly relevant, there pro eu stance is toxic with their former supporters.

  186. North chiel

    ” Breeks@ 0836″ , agree with everything you say . Just noted a clip on Sky news , where anti corruption protestors in Russia have set up their own broadcasting channel on utube to circumvent the ” state broadcaster propaganda” ( kinda ironic)

  187. BBC Scotland Tells Lies

    I think “Heedy” should organise all BBC Scotland protest rallies from now on.

    He is so anti-BBC Scotland that you would think he would jump at the chance.

    Aided by Peffers, yesindy2, Ken500, Rock, Sensible Dave, Capella and a few others on here.

  188. galamcennalath

    I used to think Bomber Blair and Banker Brown were pretty disasterous prime ministers, but now I think we are genuinely going to witness the two (or three) worst PMs in the 300 years of the UK.

    Cameron totally fcked up two referendums and that is why we are where we are.

    I believe in referendums. They are the ideal way to settle big issues, especially when you have a FPTP parliament like the UK where a government with barely more than a third of the electorate’s votes can make big changes through legislation.

    Essential for a referendum is that the case (or perhaps cases) for the options presented need to be well documented, costed, and pre negotiated.

    Cameron’s EURef had these essential conditions worked through for only one of the options. He allowed the referendum to proceed with one woolly unknown undocumented option available to the electorate. Utter stupidity beyond comprehension. Of course the disaster waiting to happen, happened.

    Ideally a referendum should have a proposal versus the status quo. The proposal should be a well documented plan, and of course the status quo needs not explanation.

    Just like IndyRef1. What could possibly have gone wrong?

    Well, Cameron was involved. By the time we voted one option was woolly and undocumented. The status quo was removed and replaced by enticing promises of raspberry jam tomorrow. Then failure to deliver nullified the whole exercise IMO.

    At least the plonker knew he had to resign for his EURef debacle.

    Then May. Never answers a question. Doesn’t like facing the public. Speaks in what she believes are catchy sound bites. Antagonises the EU, calls a disastrous general election, then tries to stay in power by any means.

    In fairness she accepted a poisoned chalice. She just didn’t need to swallow the lot at once.

    And then, we have May’s possible successor. If they are Tory they are very likely to oversee the destruction of the UK both as a viable economy and as a union.

    ‘Interesting times’ – doesn’t really do the absurd situation justice.

  189. schrodingers cat


    pretty much agree with your post except

    The SNP are in a pretty difficult place right now with only 37% of the vote so I agree with many others. They shouldn’t rein back but go on the attack instead.

    the brexit talks start in 10 days, this was the big issue on the doorstep last week, many of our supporters thought indyref2 right now was just too great a confusion.

    this was treezas plan, this ge confused the issue of brexit and indyref2 in the minds of the scottish electorate, when actually treeza hadnt refused it, just that it should wait until after brexit, oddly enough, this was pretty similar to nicola’s position too!!

    i think the brexit negs will happen very quickly and everyone will know exactly what brexit means,

    as stu said, have a beer, sit back and let brexit unfold, if im right, it will only be a couple of months, before brexit is clear, at which point we should organise an indyref2 rally and really go on the attack

  190. Stoker

    RE Brian Taylor of the BBC –

    You’re a fuckin’ liar Mr.Taylor! It was the SNP who won in Scotland. The Tory filth only gained extra seats after months of incompetent interviewing on BBC with not one of you ass-licking corrupt gophers exposing Ruth Davidson’s lies.

    You lot of incompetents at the Big Bullshit Corporation routinely allowed Ruth Party Broadcasts under the guise of “interviews” and not one of you challenged and exposed her crap. Go and hang your heads in shame, yous will be remembered for the turncoats that yous are.

    And you lot at the Big Bullshit Corporation are continuing to treat the filthy lying hate-filled scumbag as the most important woman in Scottish politics. She is a proven failure, a proven liar and a proven instigator empowered by incompetent gophers such as you lot at the Big Bullshit Corporation.

    She runs like the coward she is from radio shows and on-the-spot questions regarding her parties new associated engagement with the murderers, criminals, terrorists, racists and bigots of the DUP. And not one of you incompetent gophers at the Big Bullshit Corporation even attempt to hold her to account nor expose her many many lies.

    No wonder Scotland is in the position it’s in with constant 24/7 liefests being passed off as factual news by churnalists such as you. Real journalists in this world will one day write of the Scottish plague which infested its profession and among that infestation your own name, Mr.Taylor, will swim alongside other slimebags such as Darling, Brown and Davidson.

  191. yesindyref2

    @BBC Scotland Tells Lies says: 12 June, 2017 at 8:48 pm

    Bit of a time giveaway there BBCSTL, busy making multiple posts on another thread?

    How much does the BBC pay its long-standing researchers?

  192. Stoker

    Forgot to add to my previous post (8:52 pm):

    OH yeah, Donalda, you sure have made a difference, you’re even more useless and corrupt than your predecessors. Never thought that could be possible but there you have it, and it’s all on record.

  193. HandandShrimp

    I heard a business chap on the radio this morning talking about Brexit and uncertainty and complaining that the election in Scotland had focused far too much on independence and Holyrood issues and not nearly enough on the big issues coming up to meet us post this election.

    The radio shortbread peep said nothing.

    I wonder who one of the biggest culprits was in that particular misinformation fest?

  194. schrodingers cat

    lol @ dads, it must be soul destroying for him to be so blatentley ignored by everyone, frankly a very poor troll, his controllers wont be impressed lmao

  195. Michael McCabe

    @Breeks 8:36pm Well Said I Totally Agree.

  196. stu mac

    @Thepnr says:
    12 June, 2017 at 8:15 pm

    The Lib Dems as you will remember were formed from two parties: the old Liberals (who though middle-class pro-business, were the party who first introduced a state pension and some other beginnings of welfare state) and the Social Democrats a break off from the Labour party and really the precursor of the Blair tendency. There’s always been tension between the two parts and it seems in recent years the old liberal part has been killed off leaving only a neo-liberal husk which quite happily could ally with the Tories.

  197. jfngw

    Get ready for the next Davidson propaganda. How influential she has become within the government and how Scotland’s voice is now at the top table. This information will be widely distributed by the BBC.

    Of course the truth will be that the Tory HQ will have decided these policy changes but be willing for Davidson to be given the credit for the greater good. And if she doesn’t deliver at the next vote and things go pear shaped they have a scape goat pre-prepared.

  198. Robbo

    mike d says:
    12 June, 2017 at 6:19 pm
    Great english guys n gals backing indy .but I’m getting a bit f****d off by all the cuckoos in the nest. Somethings gonna give. You’re either for us or against us.

    mike d

    It’s called political prima Noctum by stealth in my book. Been going on for years. NE and South Scotland have now fallen.Full of settlers with lots of free goodies for their Lords.

    How are we going to get independence by letting non Scots born vote in indyref2? People need to wake up ,your getting breed out by political manoeuvring. This lot have been doing in for centuries.

    Prima Noctum is real and not a myth!!

    This will double soon and we’ll have no chance- wake up and smell the coffee. instead of looking for the scraps of May’s and Davidson’s table.

    If Scots in rest of UK can’t vote then neither should REST OF UK+ EU settlers .It’s not a game anymore.This is for the Scotland-no one else.

    B4 anyone starts saying -oh that’s bigoted then let me tell yi sumit.

    I’ve married(an english women), lived worked all over UK and I know how this works-STOP being a victim.
    If you want independence then get smart and get even.

  199. Robert J. Sutherland

    Liz g @ 20:26,

    Hit the nail on the head there, Liz. Ruthie will show who is in charge, and to hell with Holyrood or the 35 SNP MPs, near 3 times her little band. What a travesty of democracy. It really feels like some kind of fascistoid regime.

    I think this situation is ripe for satire. By suitable satire, Rude Gal could easily be made to look self-important and dictatorial. Public perception could easily go either way for her.

    Taking charge also means taking responsibility, and there’s only so much cover even the media can offer. She is very brittle when things start to unwind and she’s properly questioned. In a happy Union with Arlene Foster? There’s just so much that can go belly-up there…

    Breeks @ 20:36,

    I agree wholeheartedly, and said much the same in the previous thread. This “framing” just has to be tackled, because it was deployed again and again by the media ever since last year’s election, softening everybody up for what they hoped was the sucker punch in a subsequent election. The Unionists are desperate to stop indyref2, and it’s showing more and more.

    schrodingers cat @ 20:51,

    I don’t believe that we can afford to wait passively until the realities of Brexit begin to hit. There’s too much framing been going on for some time now, and the drip-drip-drip lying needs to be rebutted far more resolutely than heretofore. There is an ever increasing danger that the Brexit process will be “normalised” by the media, and will be accepted as the new reality and indty once again the Big Unknown.

    To sit back and just let matters drift for a couple of months would be disastrous. We had some good momentum going just before the UKGE was called, and we need to regain the initiative starting from right now. Later will be way too late.

    We must let the later wave build up on top of one that’s already there, to achieve maximal effect.

  200. Rock

    Pro-Brexit and anti-independence voters have now settled for the Tories, mainly thanks to the BBC, Scotland’s enemy number one.

    The votes lost by the SNP are probably from No voters who vote for the SNP for good governance.

    Most of the remaining 38% SNP vote is probably from solid Yes supporters.

    The 12% Yes deficit will not be easy to overcome unless we target and convince non-voters and working class voters into voting Yes.

    I can guarantee that we will lose again if we waste resources on trying to convert the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English instead of the downtrodden folks in the schemes.

    The SNP government has been too generous to the classes which take advantage but vote No, and has not done much for the downtrodden who would not let us down.

  201. Graeme

    I think mike d has a point

    I don’t think that any non Scot Uk national ie English, Welsh or NI should have a vote on Scottish independence any more than we should be allowed a vote on their independence

    I’m sorry if that comes across as racist it’s certainly not meant to be, I have no problem with any other people from outside Scotland who live in Scotland having a vote, I want Scotland to be an inclusive country but surely non Scot UK nationals have a vested/emotional interest in keeping Scotland in the union that’s not based necessarily in the best interests of Scotland

    I know there are many English people living in Scotland support Scottish independence and I am thankful to them for their support but the reality is the vast majority don’t, we can all make up our own minds why that is.

    If I was living in Wales and they had an independence referendum I can honestly say I would choose not to vote because I would consider it a decision for the Welsh people and none of my business.


  202. Big Jock

    If the SNP try and ride this out until Holyrood 2021. They are kidding themselves!

    We are not going to have a bigger vote share than just now. 10 years in government is long enough for most parties. Ruth has now outflanked Sturgeon again by stealing her clothes on a soft Brexit. From what I heard today the SNP were going back to try and get a deal over the EU.

    Yet before the election Sturgeon said with a triple lock they would press on with their plans to get a section 30. The compromise looks like back peddling. It makes it look like they lost.

    The SNP are worried about seats in WM, when they should be worried about independence. The mistake is to equate independence with possible future events out with your control.

    We are now back to waiting on WM to decide what kind of Brexit it wants. We are being led by events instead of leading our people. Independence should not be reliant on the permutations of a political ven diagram.

    The case for independence must be made on its own merits. We said we were having indy ref 2 and we must proceed within the next 3 years.

    If you wait and wait for a perfect opportunity you end up losing everything. This cannot be a more perfect chance. We have won 3 elections not lost them.

    Even as an SNP member I am bored with this SNP government. We have reached the devolution glass ceiling. There is nowhere else to go with it. We can spend the next 4 years leaking support or we can spend the next 2 years making independence happen.

    I know which I would choose.

  203. heedtracker

    The SNP government has been too generous to the classes which take advantage but vote No, and has not done much for the downtrodden who would not let us down.”

    As the French say Rock you sad git, balleux.

  204. Liz g

    Breeks 8.36
    Totally agree with you,but time is a factor against us.
    Although the period between yes and independance I think will also need honest reporting.
    This country is so resource rich the vultures will be circulating for sure.
    So still very much worth doing.

    Just an idea…. Austin Texas have what they call Public Access Television…..
    It’s a slot in a fully equipped studio for the public to make and broadcast DIY programming.
    Something every one could use,and Scots could get to cut their teeth on news and current affairs programming.
    If it was just us lot we would probably not attract many other than us to the channel.
    But every one getting to make and show their own stuff could be quite popular.
    All of the Holyrood parties should be able to support this,or at the very least,not try to block it.
    As for facilities….we already have them….at Pacific Quay!

    If you’re interested one of the phone in shows is on U tube
    “The Aithiest Experience” I mention that one because I have always thought that would be a perfect format for a group of Wingers to do.
    Call in and tell/ ask us about the current political issues from a Scottish point of view kind of stuff!!

  205. Dr Jim


    I’ve seen a lot of what Mike D is annoyed about, I have a brother who lives along the beautiful Galloway tourist route on the road to Castle Douglas, and all the way along were Tory billboards and placards and seldom a Scottish voice to be heard all the way and it does drive the, what were the locals really angry, so much so properties are for sale because of the unpleasant attitude of the, well, what do you want to call them settlers, newcomers, but their attitude to Scots stinks,and their Tory arrogance has made them extremely unpopular tramping across folks land and demanding access to places they’ve no rights to (with their dogs and that’s just daft for all the reasons you’ll know why) and when I say places I mean my own brothers front garden which is 9 acres and fenced with access only private notices but it looks nice so they ignore the signs, or they just ignore forestry signs of road closed work being carried out, and that’s massive thundering lorries carrying trees down from the hill after felling, then complain because they want to picnic

    When I’m there I just tell them it’s at their own risk and don’t blame anyone if an 18 wheeler carrying loads batters them off the path because they’re not supposed to be there
    but I only tell them once because of the attitude that comes back, then I’m done and off
    I suppose they figure if I’m allowed there so are they, but I know what I’m doing and so does the dog and I’m on my feet not parking a car in the middle of forestry paths when there’s work going on and I’m speaking English and they understand but they just don’t care
    I think they see Scotland as an inviting bouncy castle they just have to jump on, but they don’t take their shoes off first and they’re bursting peoples heads

    So that’s just a wee local story on some of it, I’m sure other areas will have others (caveat) I’ts not them all that would be exaggerating, but it is getting too much for a lot of folks down there

    I’m in no way forgiving anything if it sounds racist but I can understand anger at bad manners from any Nationality, our own included

  206. Robert J. Sutherland

    Robbo and mike d,

    You’re both fairly new to this site so I guess some leeway is due, since you may not be aware that we’ve been round this circus time after time before, on each occasion typically activated by another newcomer. (Who often doesn’t stay.)

    So let me just spell it out to you: No-one in a position to decide is listening. There is nothing you or I or anyone else can say here that will affect the decision that will eventually be taken as to who is or is not eligible to vote in indyref2. Plain fact.

    So theorise away and waste your time clogging up threads here with your effusions on the subject as much as you like, it’s all utterly pointless hot air.

    (Unless you’re playing deliberate silly beggars for another purpose entirely, that is.)

  207. Col

    I’ve spoken to a few work colleagues who are from Poland and most think it should be for the Scottish people to decide. Not anyone else. Simply put, if the UK government try to block EU nationals from voting in a Scottish referendum then we are well within our rights to deny anyone else from the UK.

  208. Doug Bryce

    So : How does Ruth Davidson seem to have more opportunity to influence Brexit (and a meeting with the cabinet) than the entire democratically elected Scottish government….

    Reminder – She is the leader of the opposition in Scotland.
    Brexit is not even a devolved issue! Yet she is on the privy council – despite being nothing more than a humble MSP.

    Evidence just how rank rotten the UK has become.

    Stu – there is a story here 😉

  209. Shinty

    Robbo/Mike D – will you two give it a rest.

    Scotland’s real tractor eds have always been Scots born.

    Some of you have just gone way OTT over this election.

    Get yourselves together and stop blaming others for our own failings.

  210. Bob Mack

    If you are going to argue about English voters you might as well get some facts right. Although there are many English who have moved to Scotland,there are also many from N Ireland and also Wales and other parts of the UK.
    An estimated 500,000 people from other parts of the UK now live here permanently.

    A you gov poll before the last referendum showed that the majority of them intended to vote for the Union. At least 450,000 wanted to remain in the UK.

    There was no poll done of the 750,000 Scots resident in England, but I imagine the percentages to remain in the UK may have been similar.

    They were not all English. What now?

  211. Rock

    For heaven’s sake Nicola, stop flogging a dead horse. You have wasted months on it already.

    What is the point of a seat at the Brexit table?

    Let Saint Theresa of England and Wales and Saint Ruth of Scotland do the dirty work.

    If you have the spine, state clearly now that there will be an independence referendum before Brexit is completed, with or without Westminster’s permission.

    Or admit it once and for all that Scots are not “sovereign”.

  212. Robbo

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    12 June, 2017 at 9:40 pm
    Robbo and mike d,

    Well Mr Robert J. Sutherland Esq

    What is the point of this site,any other pro indy site as if this point is not addressed? All the other stuff I’ve read over and over and over again is irrelevant IMHO.

    Seems your missing the elephant in the room!!

    Independence is a folly if this ain’t addressed as your getting bred out-simple fact. There is no cats hell in chance your gonna convince at least near 30 % of the population to switch unless you’ve some kind of magic wand.

    Giving the NO VOTE 400,000 + head start is suicide.If the powers at be miss this strategic balls up again, I for one won’t be bothering my arse voting.

    There you go 400.000 + 1

    I’m done

  213. Ealasaid

    “the BBC are saying the Tories won the election in Scotland”

    Why do I get the feeling that this is about Brexit? The Tories have nothing to bargain with except Scotland’s fisheries and other assets. They should be off the table unless Scotland agrees.

    Is Ruth Davidson being lauded as ‘the winner’ and will be at the Brexit negotiating table, representing Scotland, to give away rights to Scotland’s assets?

    Could the confidence she is needed for this be the reason why she feels she can take a different stand on policies from Theresa May? She then claims she stood up for Scotland?

    I have a bad feeling about this.

  214. Robert Peffers

    @Breeks says: 12 June, 2017 at 8:36 pm:

    “The economy. I don’t believe the SNP is mishandling the economy.”

    It isn’t a matter of belief, Breeks. The evidence is all there for anyone to see. In every facet of the economy that the SG has any control over Scotland is outperforming every other country in the UK.

    We were, and still are, being bombarded with fake news by The Westminster Establishment and it is not just about the economy.

    The Scottish NHS is the very best in the United Kingdom.
    The claimed PISA figures are utter bunkum and in several ways. It is pure fabricated claptrap spun by the Establishment that 50% of our children are leaving school unable to read and write. The truth is that 50% are below average standard but that means 50% are above average.

    Thing is that is how averages work and it has nothing to do with the idiotic claim that 50% are illiterate and innumerate. If that claim indicates anything it is that those making such idiotic claims are unable to understand what the quoted figures actually mean.

    “It’s a lie. Anybody who claims to have switched their allegiance away from the SNP because of its economic credentials must have been living down a rabbit hole these last couple of years”

    Or more likely they have had their heads stuck in a rather dark, damp, congested and smelly part of their anatomy.

    “The SNP is the only political party in the country striving to provide its commerce and economy with a lifeline to save itself from the epic act of economic self harm of Brexit.”

    I would be even more precise than that Breeks. There is no way in this old World that the Bexiteers are going to have a choice between a hard and a soft exit from the EU. In the first place Britain will not be leaving the EU for Westminster is, at least for the time being, only in control of the United Kingdom parts of Britain.

    The whole idiotic concept these totally confused numpties have dreamed up is utter and complete wishful thinking. First of all the United Kingdom, long ago, ceased to be a real World power. Secondly the United Kingdom actually ceased to exist on the day that devolution started. It has become an abortive set-up that cannot be sustained.

    How can there be an actual united kingdom when Westminster has assumed itself to have, “Extinguished”, one of the only two kingdoms that were signatory to forming the United Kingdom? If there is now only one Kingdom there cannot be a bipartite union. Not only that but as there is no elected Parliament of England then Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and the former united kingdom has become four separate countries and the country of England is now lording it over all others and claiming that the former United Kingdom is, “The Country”, and they call it The United Kingdom but if the Kingdom of Scotland is extinguished so also must the Kingdom of England be extinguished.

    The whole train crash is a mixter maxter of idiotic concepts that does not stand up to any reasoned logic. Yet here’s the obvious truth. The EU cannot, and will not, allow anything resembling open borders or freedom of movement between an exited Westminster and the European Union.

    The facts are plain – the EU works by consensus and all member states have a veto. Many of the states in the EU have good reason to not wish the UK well and it only takes one of them to say no.

    ” … for the record I would rather see Scottish kids scoring 80% for a History exam about Scottish history rather than scoring 90% for a History exam about Britain and the Empire.”

    See my points above. The claims of Scottish education being below par is a right load of claptrap. I saw headlines claiming that 50% of Scottish children were leaving school unable to read and write. The truth was that the authors of the claims lacked a basic understanding of what the PISA statistics actually were showing.

    The plain fact is that many people, including the Rev Stu and more than a few Wingers predicted what was about to go down during the General Election. The predictions that the election was about preventing a referendum and the ultimate end of the union are only too true.

    All that has happened is that the election only had two parties fighting it. The Unionists and those wishing to end the union. I would even be ready to believe that the claimed, “Corbyn Bounce”, is as faked as Dolly Parton’s upper body enhancements.

    The Unionists simple made the most of their assets and were quite openly campaigning to keep the SNP out. The point now is that there is utter chaos in the Westminster Establishment and I have no doubt that Theresa May’s tenure as PM is about to expire fairly soon.

  215. stewartb

    During IndyRef 1 we argued for a currency union – however sensible, it was easy for the British Nationalist politicians to refuse. We argued for something that we could not guarantee to deliver on.

    Now we are placing emphasis on retention of EU, or single market, membership status. The former would be in the gift of the EU and the latter, or something close to it, could still be delivered by the BREXIT negotiations. So again, not within our (Scotland’s) control.

    Danger of history repeating itself unless we argue the fundamental case for independence alongside any tactical positioning – all levers, all decisions in Scotland’s hands.

  216. Rock

    Rock (30th November 2016),

    “The vast majority of the English will never be convinced unless maybe if they are third generation.

    I wrote FOR EXAMPLE, others may suggest different ideas.

    But it is stupid to allow a fairly large section of the electorate whos loyalty is clearly, and rightly, to their mother country England, to have a say on Scottish independence from England.

    A precedent has been set. EU citizens were prevented from voting in the EU referendum, rightly so in my view.

    Maybe we are too stupid to be independent.”

  217. Robbo

    Shinty says:
    12 June, 2017 at 9:48 pm
    Robbo/Mike D – will you two give it a rest.

    No I bloody won’t thanks

    What failings are you on about you arrogant person?

    Bob Mack

    I wasn’t talking about just English I mean the lot. Alll Uk English/Welsh/Irish and EU living here. IF THEY LET THE 800,000 SCOTS LIVING ELSEWHERE IN uk in uk in uk TO VOTE ,then i’ve no issue.

    So your barking up the wrong tree mate!

  218. Rock

    Before the usual suspects start screaming anti-English at me, this is what Robert Peffers has to say about English settlers:

    Robert Peffers (18th February “Here comes a surprise”)

    “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

  219. Big Jock

    Elasaid Ruth is preparing herself to be the next first minister. I remember when she said it everyone laughed. But it’s not funny, she is only 9% behind the Snp.

    The SNP are on a downward trajectory even if it pains me to admit it,and see it. If Ruth comes out as the champion of Scotland for saving Brexit then Nicolas just looks like s spectator. In fact the SNP are using the language of pleading rather than demanding now.

    I am not happy with Nicola’s approach anymore. She is allowing Westminster to shut the Scottish Government out. Ruth is positioning herself as the leader of Scotland. As whacky as that sounds it’s true!

    They have sidelined Holyrood since after 2014. We are not being heard and the pleading looks like desperation. It’s time people stopped believing the SNP always get it right. They don’t!

    Is anyone honestly happy about the last 2 years and the last two elections. The Snp announce things and then disappear for months waiting for something to change.

    This wait and see is a slow death. This is the most serious point in the last 10 years for us. Doing nothing is not an option. Ruth is after Nicola’s job and the threat is real!

  220. heedtracker

    ) and when I say places I mean my own brothers front garden which is 9 acres and fenced with access only private notices but it looks nice so they ignore the signs

    Dr Jim, 9 acres is not a garden. You cant generalise about anyone from anywhere, let alone English people emigrating to Scotland, ever. There are dickheads everywhere.

    Also, Keep Out signs mean nothing in Scots Law Dr Jim. You and you’re brother know that too. Its just good old territoriality and that’s usually a bloke thing, anywhere.

    A garden is 20/20m patch of grass covered in kids toys, patchy grass or dog poop, 9 acres is an estate:D

  221. BBC Scotland Tells Lies

    Peffers (The Bore) and The Rock appear at the same time.


  222. Ken500

    Ruth Davidson lied to the electorate (in Scotland) who voted Tory/Unionist for Brexit. What she is declaring she now supports, is totally different from the policies she supportedly supported before they voted. Three days later after they had voted for Brexit polices she advocated.That is electoral fraud. Everything Tory/Unionists voted for three days ago has now been torn up publicly. The Tory/Unionists voters (in Scotland) must be extremely disappointed. To be lied to and used. Supposedly for a person to advance their ‘career’. Some must be furious. Their representatation has changed, been changed, without they approval. The duplicity is corrupt. Some farmer, fishermen and other voters must be disgusted.

    More blatant Unionist lies. It could not just May who will be going. The line up with the corrupt DUP will cause much interest.

    Considering the proposal looks remarkably like the proposals the Nicola/SNP/Scottish Gov made in a White Party months ago, with more scruntiny. These were summary dismissed as unexceptable and unworkable, without consideration. Or any discussion. (SNP baad). Only adds insult to injury for voters who have been deceived. Did Davidson just copy them? That is illegal practice.

  223. Valerie


    Thanks for turning this thread into one about blood and soil. You sound like a kipper, you really do.

    You are seriously suggesting that because I wasn’t born here, or don’t hold a BRITISH passport, I can’t vote on MY country’s independence?

    I’ve lived here all my life, paid considerable taxes over my working life, never claimed Benefit. Volunteered etc, but 800,000 born Scots down south have their right to vote before I do?

    What’s your FUCKING game? Do you seriously think those living in the south will support Scotland going independent if they voted?

    Glasgow elected their first Afro Scot Councillor last month, but he can’t vote?

    You are ridiculous, and I very rarely respond to this crap.

  224. Proud Cybernat

    Wee post-it here for the infiltrators, shit-stirrers, 77 mob, etc etc.

    It’s no’ gonnae work. You might think you can cause trouble here on WoS, split allegiances etc.

    Nope. It’s just no’ gonnae work.

    Beacuse, you see, we are Scots. And we will argue with each other about the colour of shit. But, at the end of the day, when it comes down to our national sovereignty, our independence, we will always come together again.


    So – away and chase yerselves. You’re wasting yer time here. Yae had yer best go last Thursday. You got ‘Peak Britnat’ but still could not defeat the Mighty SNP. Still the largest party in Scotland. Still a threat to you bastirts in WM.

    Oh – and GIRFUYs.

  225. Stoker

    This one has a penchant for Tory beds and farm animals:

    This one covets the ermine and title Dim Daftie of Glaekitshire:

    This one knew of the impending dangers but did nothing:

    And this one should be covered by the dangerous dogs act:
    (snarling, aggressive, lying bully)

  226. Ken500

    9 acres is technically a smallholdings which can be legally fenced in for the protection of animals, llivestock or shooting (dangerous) activities. Perfectly legal under Scottish trespass Laws. It fact there is a requirement for protective fencing in some situations. Animals do not have a ‘right to roam’. Only humans with consideration. Animals are not allowed to worry sheep etc. Farmers have a right to shoot them on their premises, as a nuisance. If they are not kept under control. Some farmers can be issued with a licence to shoot (control) some birds, depending on the regulations. Seal control, They eat fish. Salmon. Wipe out the stock. Affects the fishing industry.

    It is often incomers who illegally fence off property. Keep out signs all, over the place. They do not technically appreciate the Scottish right to roam Laws. Common rights of way, There is usually always another route or way arround.

  227. Glamaig

    This morning listening to the radio I had that clear impression of a coordinated plan unfolding! We’ve seen it before of course – the sudden change in rhetoric, coordinated headlines etc.

    All this talk of single market and Ruth the Mooth strutting about ‘representing Scotland’. I just about threw up. They are definitely up to something! One clear message we’ve been getting for two years is ‘vote SNP and you’ll get fk all’. Now its look at all these Tories working so hard for you theyre so influential dont you know.

    I didnt think I could get any more fizzing about politics in this f*cked up Union!

    FWIW I think we are heading for single market to short circuit Indyref2 and avert disaster, but they will deny its anything to do with us and its all the work of genius influential and dynamic Ruth saving the Scottish economy. Just away to throw up.

  228. Famous15

    I smell sh…!

    With Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon as leaders the independence case is close to reality.

    Yes we have to beat the MSM and the negative jokers on here but that is coming as the internet also provides a way to respond.

    Even Tory and Labour friends are aving a laugh at the way Ruthy and Kezia are being built up as super heroes. One thing in the Scottish character is we all like to see pride before a fall.

    The dream is not far from reality. BBC STV etc dream on if you think otherwise.

  229. Faltdubh

    Interesting post, Jock and I agree to an extent.

    I’m chopping and changing my mind about the result every few hours. I took the weekend off from all politics and media, and crikey, anyone feeling pissed off should give it a go! A refreshing change.

    Let’s not beat around the subject. The result was poor. It was not the disaster that it some of the hysterical media painted it up to be, but it certainly wasn’t a good or even average night, it was disappointing to lose 21 (or 19 even) seats. Over 40 would’ve been doing ‘ok’, IMO ; and each to their own!

    Saying that! A few votes either way as noted on here – we could’ve been low-mid 40s, but then again the other way – mid 20s ; but the 56 we won will never ever been beaten by ANYONE ever again, so that was an anomaly in itself.

    The SNP certainly need a thorough and proper breakdown of the vote. Why did we lose so many votes in the ‘Heartlands?’ and look at the numbers in the central belt/Fife area where we did well – if there is another an election and Corbyn is polling well, we might lose them too.

    The campaign was, let’s be honest, piss poor. Negative, regurgitated leaflets. Staying in the EU is nowhere near as popular or a vote winner as the SNP (or the Libs in England/Wales too) found it. Hindsight is wonderful and I’ll admit I thought it was a smart move for the SNP at the time to say they want to stay in the EU ; but when 1/3 of SNP voters backed to leave plus the the 62% who voted to remain – many, many are of the JK Rowling persuasion – who whilst they don’t want to leave the EU, they will probably never vote for Independence. It was probably naive to think we can win these people over, and look at the figures – we need 5% to win the next ref – I can see why the SNP pitched this.

    Politics is so much about momentum and we have to be honest, we are sliding down. How did we lose 12% of our vote from 2 years ago? Why didn’t folk turn out? SNP apathy? The SNP didn’t want or even call this election yet somehow they suffered at the ballot box due to it? How the hell did Salmond, Robertson lose their seats? Douglas Ross now has three jobs, and so does the Aberdeen South Tory MP/MSP.

    We are facing a difficult situation. Whilst the SNP won a majority of seats over the Tories and the Union parties put together. We cannot continue to repeat the second referendum patter right now. We need to take a back seat (for now) regarding that. Although we cannot afford to wait until the 2021 Holyrood election as we may well be ‘just’ the second party if the Tories they are only 9% behind today.

    We need to listen to people who are concerned. Both inside Yes/SNP. I’ve been hearing a few folk saying ‘peak Tory’. I don’t know if that’s right. They might not poll much more than 30% but what if the SNP drop further down and under 30.

    Ruth is now maneuvering as Jock said. She’s in Westminster pretending to be offended at the Tories wanting to govern with the help of the DUP and wanting a soft Brexit. May is in a weak position and it’s more than likely it’ll be a soft Brexit – thanks to the reliance on the DUP and her own numbers in the party – the media will then no doubt paint this up as Ruth and her 13 numpty MPs doing ‘more for Scotland’ than the 56 did.

    Things need to change in the SNP too. How can we have 100k members yet branches seem sterile and struggling for volunteers. I am a hypocrite myself, I rarely get involved in the party apart from paying my subs every year.

    I’m hoping someone like Tommy Sheppard does put his name forward for WM leader. Ian Blackford would be a good shout too.

    Derek McKay is probably a nice guy, but that was a poor campaign. I hope the SNP can convince Angus Robertson and Salmond to head to HQ for future campaign/planning. Salmond has a brilliant man, why was he First Minister for so long? And see off all those opposition party leaders by the double-digits? Due to thinking ahead and an ability to read the situation. It would be a huge asset for the SNP to have him behind the scenes co-ordinating things.

    The SNP need a re-start, re-think and a re-charge.

    Let’s be constructive too. Some of us are angry, hurting, and it is a difficult road ahead of us.

    We need to pull together, and the SNP need to look at why they lost so many seats. The worrying thing from this election is that there does not look to be any safe SNP seats anywhere in Scotland now. Even Na h-Eileanan Iar was reasonably tight considering the past few elections.

  230. K1

    So if someone had been born in England/Ireland/Wales/any other country in the world, say 50 years ago, had then moved to Scotland with their parents, a month, a year, 5 years after their birth, had grown up here and stayed for the rest of their life’s, are they English/Irish/Welsh/every other nationality under the sun or Scottish? Are they to be culled from the electoral register come Scotref?

    So if someone had been born in Scotland, say 50 years ago, had then moved to England/IrelandWales/any other country in the world with their parents, a month, a year, 5 years after their birth, had grown up there and stayed for 30 years, then returned to Scotland and have resided here for the last 20, are they English/Irish/Welsh/every other nationality under the sun or Scottish? Are they to be culled from the electoral register come Scotref?

    It’s impossible to even contemplate the complexity of the ‘criteria’ involved and the administration costs of ascertaining who is ‘Scottish’ and who is ‘not’ right from the offset with these suggestions regarding voter eligibility in a Scottish referendum.

    It’s why the residence criteria: ‘those who live and work in Scotland’ has been chosen as the fairest and most inclusive form of eligibility for the ‘people of Scotland’ to vote in our independence referendum/s.

    I think we all get the nuances regarding the shortcomings of that criteria. There are many valid points concerning those with ‘holiday homes’ with no permanent residence and ‘mod personnel’ again for the purposes of their paye are ‘resident’ in Scotland maybe? And no doubt other valid concerns, that we have all discussed many many times since indyref.

    It’s not going to be altered. Doesn’t matter about how many people from different parts of the UK/any other country in the world reside here, the Scotsgov aren’t going to alter the franchise just to attain a more favourable outcome for our cause. We can argue these points over and over again, but it’s like not accepting the things one can’t change, there’s nae point in falling out with one another over it either.

    Moaning might be cathartic, but it’s no gonnae change anything on this issue. Imo.

  231. Liam

    Robbo says:

    How are we going to get independence by letting non Scots born vote in indyref2? People need to wake up ,your getting breed out by political manoeuvring. This lot have been doing in for centuries.

    If Scots in rest of UK can’t vote then neither should REST OF UK+ EU settlers .It’s not a game anymore.This is for the Scotland-no one else.

    So I (born in England, lived in the Highlands 26 years, proud SNP member) WON’T get a vote – but my politically naive teenage daughters (both born in Inverness) will?

    We can argue whether politics is a game or not but but making up silly rules like ‘only people born here can vote’ that isn’t going to help.

  232. Big Jock

    Glamaig you are seeing exactly what I am seeing. A soft Brexit will save May and save the union. Leading up to 2021 Ruth will be riding high on the oxygen of saving the Tories and Brexit. The SNP are going to struggle to get their message out.

    Ruth will step up the attacks on education and the SNP record in government. I am not being mindlessly pessimistic or needlessly critical. I am genuinely worried that our movement will begin to die as the SNP dies.

    I don’t think the SNP have another term in them. We have 4 years to win independence. After that it’s either SNP minority or Tory minority. We can’t expect to get another mandate. Nicola doesn’t look very confident today and that tells you she sees trouble ahead.

  233. yesindyref2

    @Dr Jim
    Unfortunately, unless people wandering on that 9 acre garden interfere with the privacy of the dwelling itself (I think), your brother has no recourse except (exclusions from rights of access):

    (f) to which—
    . . .
    members of the public were admitted only on payment; and
    (ii) after that date, and for not fewer than 90 days in each year beginning on 1st
    February 2001, members of the public are, or are to be, so admitted

    So if your brother puts up a big sign “Access to this garden allowed on prior payment of £100 per day, during the months of January to March, but is prohibited at any other time on pain of prosecution under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003”, or something like that

    then he’s got no chance!

    As for the Border regions as a whole, they don’t get the attention from Holyrood they should, and haven’t throughout the time of the devolved parliament. Take the A75 to Stranraer for instance … or the A1.

  234. Ken500

    Everything good comes to those who wait. Some folk could learn a bit of patience. The advances made in the Independence cause in the last five year are truly remarkable. Think what the next couple of years will bring. Everything to play for, lots to happen. Keep the faith and be prepared.

    Tories/Unionists in Scotland have just the same vote share, on average they have always had. Nothing remarkable, nothing changed. The SNP performance is remarkable. Outstanding every time. No precedent. Don£t let the ‘psycho bastards’ get people down. Davidson is going to come under much greater scrutiny and fall short. There is absolutely no chance she can ever become PM in Holyrood with the average Tory/Unionist support which rarely changes percentage wise.

    Over half (50%) of the Scottish electorate would have to vote Tory/Unionist. An impossible circumstance realistically. On a Tory performance that has rarely changed from on average under 30%. A peak. There are four other Parties. Scotland could have voted for Independence, before the next Holyrood election.
    Davidson could have disappeared down to Westminster. They seem to want her for now. Don’t stop some folk’s career plan?

  235. yesindyref2

    Onyways, as I see it the pressure is on Ruth Davidson to produce the goods, and off Nicola Sturgeon. She should take a break and go hill-walking – but perhaps not in Wales 🙂

  236. defo

    Speaking of canon…
    The T-800 Maybot seems to be using the Stan Laurel approach in her, & the establishments ever more desperate attempts to klingon.

    jang vIDa je due luq. ‘ach ghotvam’e’ QI’yaH-devolved qaS.

    Google it!

    Game on t’internet. @DUPMovies.
    Seen ‘Sash Gordon’,v good.

    But what sprung first into this sick mind was ‘Apocalypse Nouy’ , aka Conrads ‘Heart of Darkness.
    With May as Col Kurtz, up a creek, gibbering darkly to hersel’, whilst an assassination team approach.

    Wagners Ride of the Valkyries Blair-ing in the distance.

    I love it when you youtube, and find an even better example. The Doors. The End.

    Fuck sake, Sergio Leone’s theme for ‘The good, the Baad, and the ugly’ just auto-played. Back at @DUPMovies…

    Come off it, Ennio Morricone’s theme for ‘A Few Dollars Moare’

    Enough, already.

    Fill yer mirth boots 🙂

  237. ian murray

    Ruth does have power because her Tories can deny Theresa May from passing anything at Westminster

    Nicola Sturgeon to her credit continues to try to protect Scottish interests

    The SNP have done too good a job governing Scotland and much of the electorate have no idea how bad it will be if any of the numpty parties get in

  238. Famous15

    I still smell sh…!

    By all means reflect but do not let the Saint Ruth meme cause a change to the basis of the good principled stance taken by Nicola Sturgeon.

  239. Ken MacColl

    When I was much younger the Libs described themselves as the “Home Rule” party.

  240. heedtracker

    Big Jock says:
    12 June, 2017 at 10:47 pm
    Glamaig you are seeing exactly what I am seeing. A soft Brexit will save May and save the union. Leading up to 2021 Ruth will be riding high on the oxygen of saving the Tories and Brexit. The SNP are going to struggle to get their message out.”

    Where are you getting any clue as to what Brexit will be?

    BBC Scotland and SKY news especially are merely hammering home the Ruth D wins Scotland last week. Its like a coup by tory media, Ruth is now your First Minister Scotland, isn’t she wonderful, look at she flumps up Downing street, so important and stateswomanly you lucky Scotch.

    If you were the clusterfcuk of beeb spin docs in Pacific Quay, you’d being doing exactly the same, with Ruth D on 13 seats out of 59.

    This is their moment to really strike their coupe do grace at the heart of Scottish independence and they are not going to squander it. This is what yoon tory corruption of state broadcasting in Scotland is all about.

    They all flopped with JC though and so back in the actual world though,

  241. Free Scotland

    Brian Taylor caught telling viewers that the tories won in Scotland, y’know, as in 13 is better than 35. There’s more logic in the contents of a cross-cut shredder.

  242. Sarah

    Using Facebook and emails to target voters and encourage them to go and vote: An email from Avaaz came today telling me that they used the same techniques to encourage people to vote against the Tories. Avaaz said they sent 1.5 million emails and covered 48% of women on Facebook. They targeted 50 seats and in 45 of them the Tories were defeated.

    Online sites, Canary, Another Angry Voice, were influential, and the Tories used Facebook.

    Surely the Yes community could do the same? There’s many different indy sites – if they co-ordinated then things like Phantom Power’s films, impartial news/politics reports, Chris Cairns cartoons, could be disseminated thus helping overcome BBC and press bias.

    If the SNP aren’t working on this already, can the indy on-line media organise to do this?

    It is essential that the exposure to BBC propaganda be counterbalanced. I can’t believe what is happening in London – a government linked to terrorists and crime is allowed to carry on without resulting in overwhelming media and public protests. It’s as if we’re living in a television series instead of real life so no-one takes it seriously.

  243. Dan Huil

    From what I’ve read Labour still wants to come out of the single market. IndyRef2 still very much on.

  244. Scot Finlayson

    Always thought a 5 year permanent (no 5 year owning a holiday home) residency,counting from date of Referendum,should be required before getting a vote in nations future,

    a bit like the FIFA ruling on players changing their national team.

  245. Dan Huil

    Aye aye. Britnat trolls tonight oh so concerned about the SNP. Aye, right.

  246. Meg merrilees

    Michael mc cabe

    Just wait – the r+pe clause will be rejected by the DUP because they are objecting to benefit changes – wanting the Winter heating allowance; pension triple lock to stay- and so T May will be able to back down with no retribution and also Ruth won’t have to U turn because it will all be part of the deal to keep a strong and stable government.

    Don’t you see, very soon the DUP will be seen as the great saviours bringing all this extra dosh to N. Ireland and people will vote for them forever.

    However, David Davis says he is going for a hard Brexit.

    But of course we know that T May has wanted a soft brexit for ages – the City needs it, Nissan BAE etc all need it; and if tRuthless gets the credit she’ll say that she listened to the people and fulfilled her promise to deliver as strong an economic solution as she possibly could. T May will look as if she is listening to the people.
    I think they’ve got it all stitched up.

    The ball is in Corbyn’s hands now and all will depend on how he resists this in tandem with the SNP, Plaid and the Lib Dems.

  247. Ken500

    It is perfectly acceptable to have a residential qualification. 2/3 years. To stop people passing through for a relative short period who do not have such a permanent stake in Scotland’s future. Students etc. Many countries do. EU members States (countries) do not let EU citizens (from other EU countries) vote in regional or national elections. They can vote in local or EU elections. Same in the UK. Referendums are different. The Gov/admin can decide.

    How could a Referendum be organised which gives Scots born people residential in England or anywhere else a vote? The logistics and expense of organisation would be almost impossible. How could birth certificates or other documents be verified etc. An also impossible ask. Especially at short notice. Scotland has a 40Million diaspora. While people from England or born elsewhere resident in Scotland on the electoral roll paying taxes rates etc. would not be allowed to vote. It still would not ensure a YES vote in any case. If that is the intention? A high percent of Scots born reside in England or elsewhere could vote NO. Highly likely for various reasons. Ensuring a NO outcome. The administration of a Referendum has to be practical. It is difficult enough already. It seems to take some time.

  248. Still Positive

    Was at my SNP Branch meeting tonight and one of our members, a primary school teacher, was at a Business for Scotland meeting recently.

    She told us they have developed an app for Scottish economics which all activists will be able to download to their phones while canvassing. It will be updated on a regular basis.

    Must be a bonus.

  249. Legerwood

    On the subject of analysis of voting in the GE, here is Lord Ashcroft’s analysis.

  250. Still Positive

    If you restrict those born in England you also exclude Angus Robertson who was born in London. Happy with that?

  251. defo

    Fecking hail Mary, this youtube straight run of @DUPMovies game candidates on auto-play is amazing, though scary, and it’s getting a bit tenuous now, having morphed into @DUPMusic, sort of.

    A National double, via Stephen ‘Paddy’ Morrissey, as one might expect, among’st others.
    The Smiths – There Is A Light That Never Goes Ouyt

    The National – Bloodbuzz Ohio

    The National – ‘The System Only Dreams in Total Darkness’

    To the strains of ‘Houy soon is nouy’ starting…

    Promise. I’ll stop nouy. 🙂

  252. Ken500

    Davidson has let her voters down. So has May. Many will not be best pleased at being deceived. The DUP will never be saviours in Ireland for various multiple criminal reasons. Corrupt criminal behaviour etc. They are more likely to be found out. Sin Fein have them covered. They have the size of them. Sin Fein are still going for a Referendum on re-unification.. Their EU human rights – Act could help them out. The numbers are stacking up. Foster could be facing criminal charges, which could be enforced.

  253. meg merrilees

    Heedtracker @ 7.55

    Florist in Stirling voted for Truth Davidson’s candidate because she wanted a ‘soft brexit’…
    How did she work that one out?

    The SNP, Greens and Lib Dems want us to stay in Europe – so NO BrexIt.
    Tories and Labour want Brexit.

    Where did it say in any of TRuthless Davidson’s leaflets that she was wanting a ‘soft brexit’.

    Her leaflets mentioned the SNP 11 times, Nicola 10 times, Indy ref 8 times, the Scottish Con and Unionist party about 6 times and Ruth Davidson about 7 times.No mention of Brexit hard or soft. ( not any that I received).

    Tory voters are selfish.

    It didn’t mention anything else!

  254. Dan Huil


    I think there’s a good chance Scotland will regain its independence without a referendum. It’s all in the timing. Sooner or later it will be a case of “F*ck it. What have we got to lose? Stuff Westminster’s laws which impair Scotland. UDI it is!”

  255. Hamish100

    Yesndyref2 ?

    Yeh the borders get nothing? Upgraded hospital and road links. Borders railway.. Yip all Holyroods fault.

    Justvwait for the high speed train to benefit the whole uk. Getting close to the borders eh– well to Brummyland at least.
    You seem to be morphing into a Corbyn.

    Ps don’t want to cast up but when it came to local elections in North Ayrshire And political interference by SNP MSP and existing Councillors in The 3 towns and north coast think I got it spot on.
    Mundell Sturgeon and co need to listen to its membership direct not through placemen and women in some areas and be told what they want to hear.

  256. Liz g

    Meg Merrilees @ 11.26
    I think we will be able to work out if it’s a set up right enough by observing if Farage get air time.
    Be more scary if he does though because then ma tin foil hat goes back oan and I would be thinking that they were trying to burn the Country down and start again.
    Don’t know about you,but I felt that about a week to ten days before the election, starting with Andrew Neil the media… all of them… just turned on May and promoted Corbin.
    Wonder what happened there??
    Mibbi a demonstration of their own power but just enough to teach the politicians a lesson but not enough to let Corbin in!

  257. defo

    Suedehead keeps it going, but if Prince’s Paisley park comes on next, i’ll get all para, thinking the youtube algorithm is out to get me.

    Speaking of Paranoia, I see the family feuding here is still an issue.
    I go away for a couple of days… 🙂

    Ah well.A good run. ‘The last of the international playbhoys’ has pushed tenuous to its limit.

  258. Dan Huil

    How’s Empire2.0 progressing? DUP to tell us all tomorrow.

  259. TheStrach

    The SNP did fantastically well at the GE. Almost 60% of the seats is a landslide win and was the SNP’s second best performance ever in a GE. The only way was down after the 2015 GE which could never be repeated. The SNP only won 6 seats in the 2010 GE so I’m very happy with 35. If we can maintain a majority of seats in the next GE (assuming we’re not independent by then) that would be quite some achievement.

    Scotland voted to remain in the EU and that’s what should happen. The SNP is right in my opinion to campaign on independence in Europe. Scotland needs immigrants or we’ll become older and poorer very quickly. We need to explain that to people.

    I can’t see a soft Brexit as that would mean free movement of people which I don’t think the Westminster parties will support. I also don’t think anyone has a cunning plan down south. They’re making it up as they go along and the shambles seems set to continue.

    We need to maintain our options to escape this shambles and stay positive and confident.

  260. Dan Huil

    @TheStrach 11:52pm

    You call it calmly and correctly. As I said above: indyref2 still very much on.

    But I won’t sleep tonight because I’ll be thinking about brexit and Baldrick… and giant turnips.

  261. Meg merrilees

    Had a conversation with a friend in her 70’s today. (She voted NO and leave,don’t know how she voted in GE 17 but is a traditional labour voter)

    We both agreed that the election result was a mess.
    She couldn’t get over the fact that Stirling and Clackmannan are no longer SNP but Tory.

    I explained that some of that was down to tactical voting.

    She blamed the SNP for ‘banging on about independence all the time. Nobody wants that any more’.

    When I tried to say that it was actually the other parties that had talked about Indy all the time and that really, a lot of people DO want independence… she cut me off and just said I know you disagree with me but I’m not prepared to discuss it so let’s just drop it.

    “The trouble is, all politicians are the same, the just stab each other in the back all the time, take the money and do nothing.”

    So there you have it.

    The subtleties of hard v soft Brexit are probably lost on a significant majority of the older Scottish public and they get all their info/lies from the BBC, the Daily Mail and the Sunday Post.


  262. MEG merrilees

    Liz g

    The media changed because they realised that the people moving across to Labour in droves.
    Corbyn was holding massive rallies in Newcastle, Birmingham etc in front of thousands which they weren’t reporting but it was being reported on Facebook/twitter and they were getting found out.

    Also, after he spoke out about T May’s cuts to the police force etc, contributing to reducing security, they had a stick to beat her with and din’t want to be caught out backing the wrong side.

    I’m pretty sure they were peed off with her hide and seek campaign as well.

  263. meg merrilees

    A lot of Corbyn’s success was down to the Student vote. They registered to vote in the thousands. It was a completely untapped source of votes; unaccounted for by pollsters because it was co-ordinated on modern social media ( not Facebook and twitter but whatever THEY use (what’s app, instagram etc)

    I heard a couple of students talking.
    Firstly, they said Corbyn had come and talked to them and asked them what they wanted – no-one else has ever done that!
    Then they had run it almost like a military campaign, making sure everyone had registered in time and on the day, running along corridors, knocking on doors of student lodgings asking if they had all voted and basically dragging them to vote if they hadn’t.
    It was a daring strategy and it worked – now they are engaged and they think he is amazing.

  264. gus1940

    Given that the overall UK vote in the EU REF. was only 52 to 48 in favour of Leave and that it is now generally acknowledged that Leave told a pack of lies together with the electorate having been given insufficient information regarding the implication of leaving The EU I cannot undestand why the Remainers are not actively campaigning for a re-run of the Ref. with sufficient information.

    Let’s face it any sentient being must now realise that Brexit will be an ecomomic disaster and that Empire2 is nonsense.

  265. Still Positive

    meg merilees @ 12.22
    Agree meg and we have to do the same with indyref2. Get the Yes Campaign up and running and inspire the young and we will win.

    Our Youth Campaigner tonight said that they have increased support from an area which voted Yes.

  266. Dave McEwan Hill

    I don’t think Brexit will happen. I’m away down to the bookies tomorrow to get odds

  267. Meg merrilees

    Here’s a new low from the Biased Broadcasting Cesspit.

    If you go to the BBC home page there is a video of Nicola under the headline
    ‘Sturgeon says hard Brexit is dead in the water’ no btl comments.

    If you go the BBC Scotland page they have an article and the same video under the same headline
    ‘Sturgeon says hard Brexit dead in the water’ with 971 btl comments, mostly negative and unpleasant – par for the course.

    WHY the difference BBC ?

    Are you biased?

    Oh! and did you know, as of today ‘Confidence rising in the Oil and gas sector’- that was quick.

    It’s only when you read to the last line that you see this:
    The 26th AGCC (Aberdeen and Grampian Chamber of Commerce) oil and gas survey of 100 firms was conducted by the Fraser of Allander Institute in April.

    Wouldn’t do to have released information that before the Council elections in May or the GE in June, would it?

  268. Black Donald

    My view is that basing an independence strategy on a bad Brexit happening, providing justification for a second referendum and a likely victory, is high risk. The brainwashed many who hate “her in the red dress” will still hate “her in the red dress” and vote accordingly.

    I believe whatever Brexit we have will be a “success”. There will be a stock market boom based on spin and deception against a backdrop of currency debasement. This is already happening. The 10 year Gilt yield which determines mortgage rates has stayed resolute at around 1% despite the falls in sterling and political upheaval. I feel it should be rising due to the inflation risk at least. My suspicion is that it is being maintained by buying with printed money, keeping interest rates low.

    My opinion is that we should ignore Brexit to some extent. The main focus should be on making the argument for independence. This way we are not dependent on events which the UK Government controls. It avoids disappointment and demotivation when external events don’t go as expected.

    Manandboy above mentioned above that we have 28B barrels of oil in our waters. I suspect this is low. At the time of the Referendum Business for Scotland mentioned 8B barrels in the Clair field alone. This news was suppressed at the time.

    8B divided by 5.3 million works out at 1500 barrels for every man, woman and child in Scotland. At the $100 rate at the time, it was worth $150,000 per head. Or £100K at the 1.50 rate at the time. At a rate of say $25 for extraction leaves £75K per head. No wonder it was suppressed. One field.

    “A country’s natural resources are the sovereign property of its people”. Blood Diamond.

    People in Scotland are living off food banks.

    This is the sort of information that needs to get out there.

    To get this out there I believe the Yes movement seriously needs to tech up. Wings is wonderful, but is not really mobile compatible. At the risk of hammers and it’s not my website, but I think it should be mobile compatible. I got my, very simple admittedly, website made mobile compatible for £300. I believe 60% of my hits are now from mobiles. The young all have mobiles and many are voting for Jeremy Corbyn. Giving them easy access to the coolest site on the planet will fix that.

    Every company has marketing presentations with accompanying text allowing the sales force to give high quality presentations on all their products to customers. We need that for independence. Wings and the SNP have a sales force of many thousands many of them with IPads. It would be nice to setup large TV screens in rooms and go through multimedia presentations driven form the IPad.

    I went to a talk by the Labour for Indepence guys at the last referendum. They were excellent, but the meeting could have been in the 19th century. They didn’t even have a projector. I was shocked and came away a bit dispirited. We seriously need to tech up. This how to beat the BBC.

    Focusing on Indepence means we are not attacking yoons, tories, Rangers, Labour etc a problem mentioned in the article.

    We are all clansmen.

  269. crazycat

    @ Sarah at 11.14

    Re: Facebook ads

    I don’t have a Facebook account, so I didn’t really understand the technique being described in the quotation from another site that I’ve pasted below, but it sounds like something we should be thinking about. I’ve conflated two separate posts:

    I have embarked on an experiment. Using facebook advertising targetting 60+ year old voters, I am attempting to depress voter turnout among elderly voters by scaring the socks off them re: the Tory social care changes and cuts to fuel allowance. No porkies, you understand – just cold hard facts.

    It helps that I use professional stock photography at work so knocking up the ads took 10 minutes.

    I am targetting the 60+ vote in the 50 most marginal CON/LAB seats and the 10 most marginal CON/LIB seats. Facebook can target by age and postcode, so I literally spent 4 hours today researching and entering all the correct postcodes in.

    I am under no illusion that I won’t shift many votes. But I do believe that people tend to vote in their own self interest, and that this may cause enough doubts to depress turnout to the benefit of LAB and LIB.

    It doesn’t even have to be particularly effective – with margins this small, a minor effect could impact the result.

    So far it’s going swimmingly. I’ve reached over 50,000 60+ voters in 24 hours in these marginals and 90% of that has come from people ‘sharing’ the ad with their friends and ‘debating’ the content in the comments. The insights you can get from the data are fascinating.

    That’s the wonderful thing about social media. With a bit of initiative you can make an impact without requiring a huge media budget. Truly a brave new world. And pretty good fun.


    The trick is to embed a small photo in the facebook advertising which contains a bit of enticing text. No-one needs to click anything. The ad is self-contained.

    They just auto-read it as they scroll through their newsfeed – and respond to it if it interests/antagonises them.

    Typical ‘organic’ views (i.e. that which you are not directly promoting, but is gained through people sharing with friends) for advertising is 1-3%. I’m up at 90%, presumably because I’m not selling anything and it’s a contentious issue.

    Indeed after 1 day of experience I am now the world’s leading social media promotional expert, and may write a book about all of this and retire after the election.

    (He can probably retire on account of having predicted the election correctly, down to seat level, and made a killing at the bookies – or so he says. It’s demonstrable that his predictions were correct, and other people who followed his tips also made profits, so I dare say it’s true that he got a nice holiday out of it.)

  270. Robert J. Sutherland

    Meg merrilees @ 00:09,

    What I think is happening is that people know somewhere deep down that the current situation is untenable but they’re confused and in denial about it, desperately trying to ignore it, and relieved to hear someone like RD telling them “It’s OK not to want it”, and equally resenting Nicola when she defends us and says we have a right to be heard.

    People don’t want to talk about it because they’re putting the decision off, and the more you press them, the more annoyed they get.

    It’s also partly a “voter fatigue” thing.

    But the decision is not going away. It will have to be faced. This is the biggest political change to happen to the UK for maybe a century or more. It’s an event of truly historical proportions, maybe even bigger than indy. Pretending a tsunami isn’t heading your way may work for you for a while, but in the end you either adapt or die.

    (I’m just hoping we’re not a nation of reality-denying dodos!)

    As to your earlier posting (@ 23:26), we seem to be getting very mixed messages over Brexit right now. Ruthie, swaggering along Downing Street today, is swinging back to “softie” – so she’s a Great Defender all right, but mainly of the City of London – while David Davis says it’s still full-steam-ahead for Full English Brexit. DUP are on Ruthie’s side on that issue, it seems, if nothing else.

    Meanwhile, back at Labour HQ, I heard Starmer on the radio today repeating that they still want out of it all – hard exit there – but they’ll be very reasonable with the EU27 and somehow they’ll achieve a special deal that will deliver us all the good things without any of the bad things. Uhuh. (Oh, look, there’s a flying pig!)

    It is the English genius to compromise. (I say that without even a hint of irony. It’s a historical thing born out of their brand of religion, which is literally broad church.) But the whole lot of them, irrespective of party, are so sadly out of touch with the continent and haunted by the ghost of Farage that in this case it seems to have morphed into complete self-delusion.

    Spin it as they please, there is no way we are going to be able to “have our cake and eat it” over this thing.

    What a megaguddle. The rest of Europe are half-pitying us (in a not sympathetic way) and half laughing at us (ditto).

  271. ScottishPsyche

    Clegg the Fleg demonstrating his ignorance of the demoralising effect of constantly telling people they are shite at their job in order to bash the SNP. He really is a wee turd of a man, appears nice as anything on the telly but as soon as he is challenged on social media his true colours show through.

    He’ll be happy have more than one source of made up dirt on Corbyn and the SNP from his new pals in the HoC.

  272. Michael McCabe

    @ MEG merrilees 11:26pm You are probably right about all that. The dup might do a deal but they cant guarantee getting the institutions back up and running to dish out all there new goodies. Ireland also has a veto on anything the British want out of Brexit. there is something new every day. it is like political hokey cokey.

  273. Swami Backverandah

    James Dornan SNP on twitter in response to Sky news report:

    “The 13 Scots Tory MPs are ‘technically the 4th biggest Party’????. What is he talking about for goodness sake”


    Some people see a balloon, and mistake it for a party.

  274. mr thms

    I think it is interesting that the UK Supreme Court are hearing cases outside London for the first time since it was established on 1 October 2009. The four day ‘event’ is happening in Edinburgh. Perhaps they can take the time to consider the other option to a Section 30 Order? The other option being an Act of the Scottish Parliament. Might as well, since the SNP have a ‘triple lock’ on a second referendum having won the last three elections. Each one under a different voting system. It is hard to see how the UK Supreme Court can deny them, since it is clear from the mainstream media and the parties of the Union that a vote for them was to stop a second referendum and they lost every time.

  275. Robert J. Sutherland

    Swami Backverandah @ 01:52,

    I think it’s a wee swipe both at Rude Gal’s pretensions of using her wee faction in the “coalition of chaos” to influence the UKGov, and also at the DUP and LibDems, who each have inferior pretensions of their own.

  276. clan rossy

    A. Britih empire rule number 1
    divide and conquer.

    i have not read a paper or watched any tv
    cause i knew what was coming i come onto this site
    for reliable info and to catch up on all the info
    i have missed out on.

    i consider myself a lurker on this site i have
    posted a couple of times over the last year
    and it seems to me that a lot of people
    over the last couple of days are overreacting

    in my opinion this is a time to pull together
    and be strong and not to panic just as the snp are
    not panicking.
    and believe me nicola sturgeon is not stupid
    and i honestly believe she has something up her

    and i believe she would never abandon her principles
    or the people of scotland.

    Remember we won this election they lost but by
    the sound of things on here by certain posts
    over the last couple of days.
    you would have thought we had lost .

    the strach 11.52

    well said 10/10

  277. Swami Backverandah

    @ Robert J Sutherland

    Yes, I think it was also a swipe at the Sky news reporter wittering on.

    How many balloons does it take to make a party? 😀

  278. Robert J. Sutherland

    mr thms @ 02:02,

    Actually I still wonder if the SG hasn’t (as yet!) missed a trick there. Article 50 requires that EU exit should follow the constitutional requirements of the departing member, yet as you say, the Scottish “triple lock” is being roundly trampled on, even though in the legal sphere (if arguably not otherwise) the UK is most definitely not a unitary state. Legal autonomy is guaranteed by the Treaty of Union – a constitutional arrangment par excellence, as even The Scotland Act 2016 recognises.

    If the Supreme Court don’t have the courage to handle it, the European Court of Justice most certainly should and very probably in present circumstances would. (Heh heh.)

    If asked. While we still have the chance.

  279. mr thms

    Maybe they haven’t. ?The UK Supreme Court announced on their website they were coming to Scotland on the 1st March 2017. Nicola Sturgeon announced that there would be an independence referendum on the 13th March 2017. Another thing about the UK Supreme Court, it was established the day before Ireland approved the Treaty of Lisbon in a second Referendum. As everyone knows Article 50 is part of the Treaty of Lisbon. Something else I remember. The EU changed the rules on Qualified Majority Voting a few weeks after the Scottish Referendum in 2014. The transition period whereby the old rules could still be used, if a country requested it, expired on the 31st March 2017. The end of March 2017, also happens to coincide with the triggering of Article 50. The Scotland Act 2016, is also interesting. Both Prof Adam Tomkins and Ruth Davidson say it introduces the concept of ‘shared power’. Prof Adam Tomkins says that it would take a full parliamentary term to implant all the powers. He was on the Smith Commission. So by ‘shared power’ they are referring to federalism. If the UK was to go down a federal route, they would be just like the the EU since that is the route they are taking. Sooner or later the two paths will converge. It makes me think all the media shenanigans, are smokescreens and mirrors and there will be a happy outcome for Scotland with regard to independence..

  280. Ann

    I personally think democracy in this country has died.

    We have party leaders telling their voters how to vote aided and abetted by the media highlighting the targeted seats.

  281. art1001

    The ‘no second referendum’ thing is really connected with the negotiations with the EU on brexit. While IR2 is on the table (bill passed by Holyrood) the EU will not consider the bartering of any Scottish resources as ownership of these assets by the Westminster Regime is not certain.

    Its our trump card and if we take it off the table it we be an incredibly stupid and harmful thing to do to Scotland.

    The unionists are not worried about an actual indeyref as much as they probably think they can fiddle it like the last one.

  282. Chick McGregor

    mr thms & Robert Sutherland

    IMV the SC appearance in Scotland for the first time is a preliminary barrage to them being used to rule an indyref2 illegal.

    But then I have always believed that since long before it was even formed.

    This was as a result of a transcript of a meeting between UK and Canadian mandarins way back in the 80s during pre patriation talks where the notion that a Supreme Court with constitutional powers could be used for such purposes was first aired. Quebec and Scotland being cited as examples.

  283. ian murray

    Screwed over by those notional seats again

  284. Socrates MacSporran

    It might have something to do with my lifelong obsession with sport, mainly fitba, but, I see the Scottish media’s current obsession with building-up Ruth Davidson as the most-powerful politician in Scotland as mirroring the obsession with the football department of that same media’s building up of the current incarnation of Rangers.

    In concert with this, I see the likes of Paul Kavanagh (Wee Ginger Dug)and the Rev Stuart Campbell as being akin to Phil Mac Giolla Bhain.

    In fitba, “the stenographers”, as PMGB has named the Scottish fitba writers keep telling Ra Peepul: all is well with Rangers; they are rebuilding, buying fantastic players and about to mount a real challenge to the all-powerful Celtic.

    Across on his blog, PMGB tells the truth – Rangers are a non-profit-making company, without a credit line at any bank and with qn urgent requirement to spend £ millions on their crumbling stadium; they are reliant on season ticket income and donations from their directors and other well-heeled fans to keep going: they finished last season some 30 points behind Celtic.

    In politics, the stenographers of the Scottish political media are telling us: Indyref2 is dead, the Ruth Davidson No Surrender Party won the Scottish election; the union is safe.

    Meanwhile, Rev Stuart and the likes of Paul Kavanagh are telling us: the SNP is the biggest party in Scotland and runs the Scottish Government; the SNP has the majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster; the SNP/Scottish Government has a mandate to hold an Independence Referendum at a time of its choosing and, “dirty money” and undeclared back-room deals had a lot to do with the Scottish Tories finishing 21 seats behind the SNP in the General Election.

    And finally, Rev Stuart, like Phil Mac Giolla Bhain, does not live in the country about which he writes.

    Talk about a parrallel universe.

  285. heedtracker

    Ann says:
    13 June, 2017 at 5:51 am
    I personally think democracy in this country has died.”

    We face one of the weakest tory UK gov’s ever too. All of which explains the extraordinary behaviour of BBC Scotland. But we should be at our strongest now, with such a mess of tory gov.

  286. bjsalba

    O/T Big announcement from EU on Euro-clearing today.

    BBC trying to spin it as EUBaaaad

    They describe it as a “raid” on the business of the City of London.

    I think the EU is finally tired of waiting. I’m amazed and astounded they have been patient this long.

  287. Ken500

    Democracy in the UK is anything but dead. The recent GE election results shows that. There is voter fatigue (in Scotland) but that is not unexpected in the circumstances. The disdain for May, the Tory/Unionist,Westminster and the corrupt politicians. Disgust felt by the majority..Now a Unionist right wing (extreme right wing facist element) in UK Gov, Dangerous. Now being countered.

  288. starlaw

    The UK can call its self what it wants. But it is not a Democracy, Democracy is a nice word to keep the masses sweet. The UK is a Monarchy. Take a dictionary …look up Monarchy …then look up Dictatorship … then compare the two…. Democracy is a nice word …it keeps the masses sweet.

  289. Effijy

    Mundell on TV trying to legitimise the psychopath DUP by saying that he has seen SNP members in the same lobby as the DUP members?

    Due to the structure of parliament that can be said of every party who have set foot in the place.

    What SNP have never done is promote hate against Catholics,
    vote against Women’s rights, degrade Gays, or to refuse to accept how the earth was created and the origin of species.

    Almost 750,000 signatures against a Toxic Tory/Dumb DUP Alliance.

  290. Ken500

    There is no way IndtRef2 will be left off the table. The majority of the members would never countenance it. The raison d’etre. Always has been and always will be. Independence increasingly becoming the only solution to the democratic deficit in the UK. The majority in Scotland are never going back to any Unionist Party dominance in Scotland or Scottish politics. Davidson’s carry on will ensure that. May and Davidson will have to resign.

    The lies being found out. Wants her ‘rights and privileges’ protected but wants to be a member of a political Party which attacks the rights of vulnerable people. Twa faced hypocrite. Immature, an intellectual deficit, inexperienced and naive. A two faced bully. Dugdale and Davidson are like two peas in a pod. A mirror image. They want their ‘rights and privileges’ protected but chose to be members of Unionist Parties that are attacking, the ‘rights’ and starving and killing vulnerable people. Two lying bullies. Standing up and telling lies every week for a comfortable living Is just not good enough. PR job.

  291. Wullie B

    Regarding Libdems capitulating the this seat ( Skye Lochaber) I must have got at least twenty LD leaflets through the door, but Ian Blackford has been highly visible and a better MP than Charles Kennedy, even before his sad battle with the bottle, although the former was a good representative, the latter has been better in my opinion, and having had help from Ian to move something forward that wouldn’t have, in fact I hope Ian becomes SNP group leader in Westminster

  292. Juan P

    It’s not Scots pensioners or English who keep denying us independence. It’s British Nationalists.

    Let’s stop using the terminology that the mainstream media want us to use. No voters are British Nationalists first and foremost.

    At every opportunity, particularly on the BBC, our elected independence supporting representatives should be calling them out for what they are.

  293. Ken500

    Mundell is a member and representative of a Unionist Party which attacks, sanctions and kills vulnerable people. Cuts essential public services etc. A twa faced total hypocrite. Wants his ‘considerable rights and privileges’ protected but attacks, sanctions and starves other vulnerable people, women and children. His position is untenable.

    The Tory/Unionist Party right wing (extreme right wing – fascists elements), May is a total hypocrite. A liar. Her and her Party have sanction, starved and attacked vulnerable people. Starving and sanctioning and killing other citizens. Breaking UK/International Law. Ruining the UK/world economy. Building up £Trns of debt and mismanagement. The economy in decline the debts increasing because of the Westminster Unionist illegal policies. Crooks and charlatans. The Brexit debarcle is a classic example.

  294. galamcennalath

    starlaw says:

    The UK can call its self what it wants. But it is not a Democracy

    I agree completely!

    – governments can take control with 35% of the vote
    – MPs can be elected with 25% of the vote
    – an unelected upper chamber
    – guaranteed seats for clergy
    – church and state intertwined
    – sovereignty not with the people
    – dark money influencing elections

    One thing I have never understood about the EU is why they were willing to accept a member whose standards of democracy fell so far below other members.

  295. starlaw

    If the DUP can ask for wads of money for their support . Then Ruth Davidson must do the same for her constituances it is her duty to look after her voters the best she can.

  296. Nana

    Britain’s political outlook seems toxic to investors

    Firms ‘totally unprepared’ for post-Brexit migration fall, think tank finds

  297. ScottieDog

    @Black Donald
    “The 10 year Gilt yield which determines mortgage rates has stayed resolute at around 1% despite the falls in sterling and political upheaval.”

    The gilt yield is determined by the quantity of reserves in the banking system. Banks lend/borrow reserves (narrow money) to each other. When there are not enough reserves in the system (determined by Bank of England ) it pushes the interest rate (policy rate) up which knocks on to interest rates for loans and mortgages etc. Too much reserves and the rate plummets to zero. It’s a balancing act the BOE performs everyday.

    The current rate is low/near zero because the BOE flooded the banking system with reserves via QE i.e – buying up bonds (government debt).

    What this boils down to is that it’s not ‘the markets’ that determine these bond rates (or ‘cost of borrowing’ as the media spin talks about) but the central bank.

    Banks will always buy these bonds as they always know the BOE will buy them back at any point and have already done so to a considerable extent such that our central bank owns more than £400 bn in uk government debt – by marking up a computer.

    The above is a big part of the reason the stock exchange keeps rising. It is inflated by a government agency (central bank). People like the tories will say they believe in small govt, yet they benefit from big government hand outs in the form of performing stocks.

    Facts like this are important when we argue for a Scottish central bank and currency.

    With a sovereign floating currency, there is NO default risk and we are NOT at the mercy of the markets.

  298. Smallaxe

    Nana: Good morning. Thank you for your links.
    Kettle’s on! Peace Always. 🙂

  299. Tony Little

    I don’t buy this “voter fatigue” business. It’s not as though we have to “go to the polls” every month, or even twice a year. Some countries (e.g. Switzerland) hold multiple referenda every year without ‘voter fatigue’, so what’s wrong with people in Scotland. Don’t we want to exercise our political opinions?

    Are we so submissive that the act of leaving the house (or even voting by post) and walking down to the Polling Place taking a small amount of our day is somehow a MASSIVE burden? No wonder we gave up on our chance at Independence in 2014, it would obviously place far too much of a responsibility on electing a future government.

    Sorry for the rant, but people DIED to get the vote and having to vote four times in four years is somehow a major issue? Get real.

  300. galamcennalath

    Juan P says:

    It’s not Scots pensioners or English who keep denying us independence. It’s British Nationalists.

    Agreed. It’s just that British Nationalism is more common among certain demographics.

    There is now virtually nothing left which is ‘British’ – WM, armed forces, BBC. All the nationalised industries have gone. All those services provided by publically owned utilities, gone. Royal Mail and the Post Office, changed completely.

    However, many were brought up in a world with all that and somehow mustn’t have noticed their demise! Or, many they are just fed up of all the change.

    Either way, there are IMO a majority of Scots who can persuaded that Indy is in both their interests and those of society in general. All we need is a majority.

  301. Nana

    Good morning Smallaxe, nice day here right now.

    One more link

  302. Ken500

    The UK is a democracy. Unfortunately democracy is being undermined by the very people elected Westminster Unionist representatives completing the democratic deficit. The corrupt, criminals at Westminster who are supposed to uphold the Law break the Law and are not sanctioned. Swept under the carpet. The UK is the only Western democracy where criminals in political, private and public life are never brought to book. The fiscal system is at fault.

    If any Party in Scotland has broken electoral Law. On spending electoral spending or any other issue The cuprits should face the Law and criminal charges and proceedings. The Police put enough folk in cells on charges that can never come to court. They should be doing their duty and going after the real criminals. Any corrupt politicans included. It is up to the Scottish Gov to ensure that.

  303. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Good old impartial BBC Scotland.

    In a similar vein to Scottish Education and Health FOIs etc. Posing as news to deflect from major problems South of the Border…..

    Just caught a wee bit of their morning program and low and behold following lots of DUP bad regards abortion and the rights of women yesterday they give us…..

    “More Scottish women going to England for abortions”.

    Stories about Paramilitary collusion and murders in NI on BBC Scotland?

    No so much.

  304. galamcennalath

    Nana says:

    So … the shady group which donated a large sum to the DUP for Leave campaigning in the rest of the UK, has alleged links with Saudi intelligence and the CIA.

    And some people worry about Russian interference in the West?

  305. Scot Finlayson

    Was this tactical voting or are libdems voters just plain stoopid,

    did they not help the Tories in 2015 by crossing to Labour and thereby losing their own seats to Tory.

  306. Ken500

    The UK central bank sets the world libel rate. The BoE UK Gov appointed officials sets the world libel rate which affects world banking interest rates. From a London centre. The Gov of the BoE, who is supposed to be of Independent thought, was illegally manipulating the libel rate with the illegal collusion of Brown and Darling. An illegal act which affects world banking rates. The interest banking rate set in many countries in the world. The Bankers Brown and Darling should have been charged, convicted if guilty and gone to prison.

    The UK Gov unionists politicians can illegally manipulate the BoE set rate by influencing it, which has a bearing on the banking interest rate worldwide. By illegally influencing their appointed officials. If the Tory/Unionist are not out of UK Gov soon the world banking system could collapse again because of their Brexit policies. The world banking system could collapse again.

    The Westminster Tory/Unionists politicans are a threat to the world economy. Another banking crash could result. The Westminster Unionists are a danger to the world economy Non of them have a clue of what they are doing re Brexit. It is an extremely dangerous situation. No comprehension of the effect of their policies again. Complacency. The right wing (extreme facist) has taken over. May etc. They are a world laughing stock. If they are not charged soon.There could/will be another world recession. The effects will be devastating worldwide. This is what the Westminster Unionists do. Time and time again. It not only affects and is detrimental to the Scottish economy but the world economy. They do not creat stability. They create chaos. They are intellectual pygmies.

  307. The Isolator

    Faltdubh@10.45 yesterday.

    Just read your post and pretty much bang on the money for me and a much better construct of where I am than I could ever achieve.

    For the 1st time ever since I began voting in the late 70’s I used a postal vote and came away on holiday.As soon as May called this “fake “election I knew something was up as the SNP simply retreated into safe mode and fought a very pallid campaign.

    The Tories were shouting about taking Salmond and Robertson out from the get go and so it came to pass.Think back to Alex Salmonds disastrous interview with Brillo heid re education standards then Nicola Sturgeon fronted up by fake nurse on national TV.Even my own MP the excellent Joanna Cherry was drawn into the controversy over nurses using food banks and had to apologise on Social Media.(stil don’t think she should have apologised but she should never have found herself in that position)

    Traditionally the SNP have always recycled but remained true to it’s campaigning techniques.Get in quickly and throw a few good jabs then retreat to allow the lumbering opposition time to adjust then go again,setting up for the knockout.None of this happened certainly around my neck of the woods.

    In Holyrood we have been struggling to get the message across since the reshuffle with too many media ambushes and with far too nicey nicey things to say about the Corbyn smoke screen fronted British Labour Party.We need to blood some new advisors to our top people.They are available but not being used is my understanding.

    A few weeks ago on a night out with some good SNP supporting friends the infiltration of the Party by outside influences after the 2014 referendum was discussed at length.

    These are very active people within the party.I said earlier something has spooked the horses..are we now witnessing a “Deep Cleanse” hence Angus and Alex coming back from Westminster to help out?Oh and I would put Ms Black in charge at Westminster ..a real thorn in the establishment side and a curve ball for them to deal with while maybe attracting votes from the Corbyn charade.

    Apologies for the length of this reply in advance.

  308. Fireproofjim

    Many people are calling for inderef2 to be announced. It will be, but not until we can win it.
    Unless there are a series of opinion polls consistently over 50% for Yes it would be suicidal. I hope there will be a bounce over Brexit.
    Meanwhile the Yes campaign should be reconstituted under a charismatic leader (there are a few) and run in parallel with, but separate from the SNP.
    By the way, on polls, did everybody notice how incredibly accurate professor John Curtice was in his polling predictions on exit polls? As soon as the polls closed he predicted the result almost to the last one, including SNP which he had at 34, to everyone’s surprise and alarm. Very impressive.

  309. Graf Midgehunter

    Art1001 says @ 5.54
    “The ‘no second referendum’ thing is really connected with the negotiations with the EU on brexit. While IR2 is on the table (bill passed by Holyrood) the EU will not consider the bartering of any Scottish resources as ownership of these assets by the Westminster Regime is not certain.

    Its our trump card and if we take it off the table it we be an incredibly stupid and harmful thing to do to Scotland”

    This is one of the 3 main reasons why May/Westminster fabricated the GE17. (Mentioned them on another thread)

    It’s a strong negotiating card for the EU and London knows fully well that any attempt to barter off any Scottish assets e.g. fishing, oil, defence, energy etc., against things precious to Londons heart such as the City’s financial position or “Passporting” would fall on deaf ears if London didn’t have full control over Scotland.

    As long as an unsettled Scotref2 hangs over the “Constitution”, London can’t play this card because it barely has anything with which it can negotiate.

    Those 35 seats and the majority in Scotland are worth gold and London knows it and the election was a last chance to smash the dominance of the SNP before the negotiations start.

    If May tries to bring in Scottish party friend Roothie as part of her negotiating team to “speak” for Scotland, then Barnier only needs to point out that the REAL Scot/Gov. has 35 seats and ask why they are not at the table..!

    Don’t be pessemistic, the real start of the Brexit talks take place from next Week onwards and that is when everything has to be put on the table and the EU want to make it transparent – so no hiding any more for May.

  310. schrodingers cat

    the real start of the Brexit talks take place from next Week onwards and that is when everything has to be put on the table and the EU want to make it transparent – so no hiding any more for May.


  311. Breeks


    Reading that PanzerMooth Davidson is jockeying for influence over Theresa May’s Brexit negotiations by threatening her 12 man DUP majority with “her” 13 Scottish Tories. Ruth demanding consideration of LGBT rights, DUP says that’s “awkward’, and she also wants an open soft Brexit.

    Problems for Ruthie begin with her bakers dozen Scottish MP’s are fresh out the oven, bought and paid for by “dark money” from the South, and not being hers at all. They are Westminster MPs led by May, with no formal “Scottish” Conservative Party in existence.

    Second, I remain befuddled by the Tories promising to meet us under the clock at midnight with a Soft Brexit they have smuggled out of Europe when it is beyond their meagre capacity to deliver, and Europe has not reported that any soft Brexits are missing. Its almost certainly a Knock-off black market soft Brexit, and not the real thing. Ask Europe about a soft Brexit and witness Continental drift in real time. “The UK chose to leave. Hurry up and get on with it”.

    So thats Supermooth, the Tory buffalo whisperer who can win elections with 13 out of 59 MPs promising to stop a referendum she cannot stop because the demand for it which she says doesnt exist actually does. She’s now trying to knife her boss whom she supports dearly, and sell herself to the English Remainers as their soft Brexit messiah and new PM into the bargain. What a modesty and charm eh?

    Tough times ahead for Theresa May, wedgied between the DUP, political wing of Loyalist Terrorists, and Ruthie Davidson, political wing of BBC Scotland.

    Meanwhile in a fairy grotto hidden deep in Epping Forest, Tory Elves and Dwarves combine their skills to create a mythical dagger which turns blue whenever the back of a mouthy brass necked Scottish political upstart draws too near.

  312. galamcennalath

    “… the UK has become an expression of England politicians serving England, once again of the 130 UK ministers, every single one in every single spending department (apart from one Wales MP) is an England MP or peer. A single Scotland politician is the entirely pointless (he has no spending powers and his job is now being done entirely by Ruth Davidson) Scotland Secretary. … The UK is now, in governance terms, simply Greater England. The Tories like it that way “

    Which makes Davidson simply a Greater Englander doing her duty.

  313. galamcennalath

    Ruth Davidson working for Scotland’s interests, exerting power over London, pushing for changes in policy, a voice of reason among the Tories?

    IMO utter bovine excrement. She is one of them and playing to a script aimed at the gullible.

  314. Nana

    Tories have made a bid to block #ScotRef. Make your voice heard. Pledge today:

  315. Bob Mack

    You can do nothing but laugh when you hear the Tories are being forced to ditch manifesto pledges by the DUP because they are socially unacceptable.

    Through the looking glass right enough.

  316. Breastplate

    I think if you were waiting for polls to show a consistent lead for independence I fear we would be chained to Westminster for eternity if not longer.

    Ask yourself how easy it is to manipulate polling data by weighting, by order of questions asked and the very wording of questions that can elicit an expected reply.
    Then ask yourself who and what type of people own these polling companies, where do their allegiances lie.

    Surely recent history has shown that at best these polls have been wrong and at worst wilfully manipulated.

    Maybe I’m wrong, but what if I’m not?

  317. Nana

    Thank goodness, goats all over the land must heave a sigh of relief

    I was Director of the @UKParlArchives for 6 years and I can tell you that the Queen’s Speech is not made of parchment, goat or otherwise.

  318. ScottishPsyche


    Radio Scotland this morning has a report on a woman who could not get the type of late abortion she wanted in Scotland and who ‘had to travel to England’. She wanted a surgical abortion and a medical abortion was offered. Reasons given were a lack of Doctors able or willing to do such a procedure.Cites a (Scottish) GP telling her that failure of contraception could have been God’s will!

    The implication being that Scotland is no better than Ireland with insidious religiose undertones?

  319. Nana

    I saw someone on twitter saying scotgov should send auditors into all councils. Could they do that I wonder.




    Aye, the Scotland Act 1998 was a creation of WM, but Scottish sovereignty, the Scottish parliament that ratified the Union are not.

    Scottish sovereignty existed long before Donald Dewar and Tony Blair.

    WM Parliament cannot “unsovereign” Scotland’s Parliament. It cannot “unsovereign” the democratic will of the people of Scotland.

    If the will of the people gave the Scottish Parliament ultimate authority within the Union, the law would need to recognise that.

    That’s why I now propose, we should attempt to make Holyrood ( as the manifestation of Scotland’s democratic voice) sovereign within the UK.

    Why do that when it’s “messier” and less romantic than full independence? Because I believe -at this point in time- many in Scotland prefer greater power for Holyrood but don’t want the Union to end completely.

    If Brexit is completed, with Holyrood as Sovereign, it would be Holyrood that receives the EU powers when they are returned. It would then be for Holyrood to decide which – if any- powers are loaned to WM.

  321. Juteman

    I think the best compromise on who has the right to vote in Indy2 is residency. If you have lived here for 5 years? you get the vote. That seems fair.

  322. galamcennalath

    The GE was called for two intertwined reasons. To try to neutralise the SNP and their threat to hold IndyRef2, and for Brexit reasons itself.

    They had some success in Scotland. I am sure they wanted 30+ Unionist MPs, but failed.

    They wanted an excuse to set up Ruth Davidson as a pretendy small ‘n’ nationalist to allow the media to replace Nicola with Ruth as the voice of Scotland. They are trying hard to do this. However, given the continued strength of the SNP they will fail, and will offend many.

    Davidson is an opportunistic British Nationalist / Greater Englander and very much part of the Tory mainstream. Anything else the media try to paint is just callous manipulation of gullible Scots.

    Of this I am fairly certain.

    As for the Brexit motivation, I am far from certain. I have sympathy for the conspiracy theory that May tried to throw the election to get themselves out of the hard Brexit muddle. Voters have impossible expectations for Brexit, and May needed as excuse to change direction. A lot of evidence point to this.

    Alternatively, her awful campaign and manifesto was simply stupidity, incompetence, and over confidence. A deadly mix.

  323. Breastplate

    The Unionists want to block an independence referendum because they think they could lose it.
    We want an independence referendum because we think that we will win it.

    There is enough doubt about the result that clarification is needed. In a democracy the will of the people is paramount or it’s not a democracy.

    Here’s a question with a multiple choice answer.

    In a democracy, when should politicians have their finger on the pulse of a nation?
    (A) Never
    (B) Once in a lifetime
    (C) Always
    (D) I refuse to answer the question on the grounds it may incriminate me as a fascist.

  324. Nana

    Trouble ahead for TM

    Sinn Fein MP’s ‘fly to London to take up Westminster offices’

  325. stu mac

    @Bob Mack says

    Another point re settlers. My old English tutor (and also my Old English tutor) married another English lassie up here where they settled and had a kid. Meeting up with him some years later he told me his daughter thought of herself as pure Scottish and was quite nationalistic. The first generation may still think of themselves as Brit/English but the following generations become Scottish and will be pro-Scotland. Unless of course we treat their parents like second class citizens (and denying people a vote is to do so) in which case they’ll say hell mend you and stick to the UK.

  326. stu mac


    Let’s knock this on the head for once and all. Can you imagine the shit-storm in the media if the SNP/Indy movement were to try and force an amendment preventing English born residents – and your idea would be to include people who have lived here for decades, contributed greatly to the life and economy of the country and in many cases have kids growing up as Scots – the anti-Indy unionists would be rubbing their hands with glee. Many Scots, thinking of moving over to vote YES would very likely have their minds changed by what would be portrayed as – and let’s face it would actually be – a blatant example of blood and soil nationalism. They would think if that’s nationalism I don’t want anything to do with it.

    Your idea is not only completely wrong morally, it’s stupid politically as it would just hand the enemy a stick with which to beat us. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they scour the pages of sites like this hoping to find enough quotes like yours to prove we really are all blood and soil nutters.

  327. Molly

    Black Donald

    Last night, one of the news channels interviewed the people at Momentum.The office was full of workers sitting at their computers , phones etc and obviously had played a huge part in getting the J Corbyn message out.

    Our problem is whether it’s Phantom Power, Indy live, books or even Wings it has to be crowd funded. There is no central cash point to set these things up or sustain them.

    In a way by crowd funding it stops any group being beholden to an agenda but I agree with you, somehow we need to up our game.

    If the Scottish Convention or whatever it’s called now are looking to be the foundation for the next Indy ref, perhaps they need to be the central bank where groups could get funding?

    You know if there was one massive crowdfunder pooling all our resources including all the info from Common Weal, Indy hub 2 , Indy App , well the list could go on…

  328. jfngw

    From now on could we refer to Davidson with her new official title of ‘The BBC First Minister of Scotland’. They are so in awe of her ability to win 22% of the seats, or that is the propaganda anyway. The strategy now is to make sure she acquires this title properly in 2021. This is bad news for Dugdale as she will need to be trashed for this to succeed. Rennie is not an issue as they will back Davidson, or anyone just to seem relevant.

    Oh and inflation is still going up, CPI 2.9%, RPI (the one we used until they found a smaller number) 3.7%

  329. Nana

    This is a better report

    Sinn Fein delegation to visit London to push for special EU status for Northern Ireland and re-establishment of Stormont institutions

    UK inflation rises to four-year high of 2.9%

  330. Liz

    Am trying to be optimistic but have to admit to panicking a bit.
    All the unionist parties knew there was going to be GE and it’s only purpose was to limit SNP influence.

    Folk seem to think there will be a new GE soon and if there is it will probably be devastating for the SNP in WM.
    Sorry to be so negative but this is what I fear.

    We are living in a dictatorship.
    BBC lies with impunity.
    Promotion of Farage worked and nowe they’ve transferred this to Davidson.

    We are fighting for our lives now.
    The upside is, I’m not devastated at the loss of AR &AS at WM because Nicola needs some strong advisers and I think Tommy Shepperd &Joanne Cherry will bring a fresh approach.

    I don’t think the current SNP administration have ever come to terms with the massive increase in membership
    I don’t blame them because I’m sure they’ve always worried about infiltrators but there is too much loyalty to folk who are bland grey & conservative (c).

    We need the big guns to control the indy narrative ‘let Nicola ‘get on with the fecking day job’.

  331. Flower of Scotland

    I know someone in Strathmiglo who covered their house with Vote Conservative, say no to Indyref2 but said that they voted LibDem!

    Even the LibDems were shocked!

  332. Scot Finlayson

    @stu mac

    would a 5 year residency (not holiday home) before qualifying for Indy vote not be an acceptable compromise?,

    `blood and soil` is a bit extreme,

    a love of ones country,the people the land and its history should not always be tarnished by the Nazi ideologies of race and land,

    ask the native American/Australian/Mongolian if they love their land and their people and their history if they say `yes` are they likewise tarnished?

  333. Liz

    @megmerilees this is exactry what big data is about.
    People were getting sent messages specifically targeted at their concerns – that costs a fortune.

    It could well be this florist got a message saying exactly that and now of course that’s what Ruth is doing – backing soft brexit.

    Ruth etc are pawns and someone else has planned the strategy

  334. Grouse Beater

    Some historical facts here:

  335. Macart

    @Nana 9.25am

    I wrote this elsewhere, but it probably fits in this instance.

    Jaw dropping, isn’t it? As it happens, it’s also inevitable and I think necessary. This is where Westminster’s narrative and political practices were always headed. You use division as a political tool on your own population for decades and who knew you’d create a state in complete political and societal turmoil?

    Most especially here in Scotland we see the three establishment parties morphing and melding into a single party with only a single issue dominating their ‘day job’. The branch offices doing exactly as their masters bid… mainly because they can. It’s all that has ever been required of them. Keep the natives in line. Keep them economically and politically dependent on central government. As appendages of larger parties who form policy for the largest partner of the UK, their policy and instruction is whatever is decided for them. Today? Today it’s mainly destroy Scottish democracy. Stop the SNP in any way that you can and whatever you do, ensure that the Scottish electorate stay on side by whatever means necessary. Scotland’s abundance of resources and tax base have never been more essential to the financial security of the state. A state which has clusterfucked the economy and international trade relations so badly, it requires to be especially grippy with all remaining assets in order to survive in the style to which it has become accustomed.

    AGAIN… Who knew?

    And again, this was inevitable. The people of Scotland need to see this, YES and NO voter alike. We need to see the populations, the wider society of the UK break apart under the unbearable strain of artificially fomented divisions. We need to see for ourselves what the effects of catastrophic and corporately compromised central government and their manipulative practice of politics looks like up close and personal. After to the conciliatory and reasoned approach of 2014’s indyref, the ONLY way this was going to come to a conclusion, was the hard way. To let Westminster be Westminster.

    The writing for UK politics and for the UK has been on the wall for some considerable time. I’d say since the end of WW2. It wasn’t a foregone conclusion though until 2014. The UK government and establishment had their opportunities to turn things around on several occasions over the past 70 or so years constitutionally. They could have started with true home rule for what are now the devolved legislatures. A confederation of fully empowered small nation states working together through social, rather than political union. The word ‘UNION’ really could have meant what it said on the tin. A partnership of willing equals, but y’know, too difficult, impossible administration, legislation, badgers, witches, impractical woo…etc.

    The empire is gone. The ‘GREAT’ has long since been removed from Great Britain. The idea of a single national identity, conceived in the minds of greedy, selfish, elitist bastirts to keep the plebs in their place? Well, that has been overwritten by their own narrow minded social and ethnic bigotry. A hypocrisy exposed for the world to see and either laugh at or reel away in disgust.

    The real story now is just how Scotland’s populace will respond as the smelly stuff hits the fan? What KIND of country do they want for themselves or their children and generations to come?

  336. meg merrilees

    Liz g

    Unless their candidates were saying one thing to florists and another to butchers – i.e. lying and promising them the earth.

    To be slightly fair – when under pressure the tRuthless one would not say whether she was for the single market or not, but did say, evasively, some waffle about being for the best economic deal we could get, or some cr=p like that.

    Wonder what folks here will think if tRuthless with 13 is listened to more than Leanne Wood, Carwyn Jones and Nicola was with 56…

  337. Ron Maclean

    We voted to stay in the European Union. Shouldn’t the Scottish Government hold a referendum, advisory if necessary, on the Brexit outcome? The result would determine the need for IndyRef2.

  338. jfngw

    Too many indy supporters in a panic about GE result. The 2015 result was not the norm, a lot of votes were a backlash to the broken vow. I would suggest the current vote is around the correct level of SNP support for WM elections, possibly even a bit higher if the weather had been better, especially in central belt.

    So nothing to really get overly concerned about yet, it is still three times the what it was not so long ago and the majority of seats are still held by SNP. Of course it does give the media another attack mode but that unfortunately would happen anyway, they would just find something else.

    The BBC are now not news reporters they have too many journos who want to be news makers, that’s how they become famous and command ludicrous salaries.

  339. shug

    We must be clear the unionists are not going to stop with a good result for Ruth (I know it is debatable) but they see they are on the ascendancy and they will keep pushing until we are ground to dust and even then they will look to get rid of the dust.
    The Indyref2 fund must keep going – it can only get bigger
    Ruth will be give a few baubles to bring back to show how good she is but the fundamental issue of being outside the EU market will bight the fishermen and the farmers in due course
    My money is on another general election in 6 months – Ruth’s argument for no indyref2 by then will be a bit stale and hopefully the SNP will be ready for her

  340. Nana

    @ Macart

    This paragraph says it all.

    The empire is gone. The ‘GREAT’ has long since been removed from Great Britain. The idea of a single national identity, conceived in the minds of greedy, selfish, elitist bastirts to keep the plebs in their place? Well, that has been overwritten by their own narrow minded social and ethnic bigotry. A hypocrisy exposed for the world to see and either laugh at or reel away in disgust.

    The world is indeed laughing and reeling in disgust and no wonder.

    I just hope Nicola has spoken with the EU and has assurances a representative from the Scotgov is present at negotiations. Time to put Westminster in their place.

  341. Dr Jim

    DUP saviour of the Union:

    I’ll bet my house on Arlene Foster demanding a block put on the SNP to ever entertain a referendum in Scotland in return for DUP support and the removal of Saltires from public buildings to be replaced by the Imperial Flag, and Mrs May will lap that right up, I’ll wait with interest to see the SNP response to removing the Saltire from Holyrood

    Folk who haven’t availed themselves of what the DUP are, like some of the youngsters, should really start Googling because at the drop of a hat if things don’t go the way they want, they’ll walk, they’ve got form for it and then they’ll come back nibbling away at the edges of every decision to change things all over again to what they want until there’s nothing left but discord, which for the DUP is always the long term aim
    Really the only thing they have in common with the Tories is the Queen and the preservation of the Union, other than that, nothing, and that kinda warns me about what the Tories are up to

    I’ve ordered a bigger Saltire for my house to get my retaliation in early and sound cancelling headphones for the increase in marching bands

    These people are not a load of laughs

    The media keep making pronouncements that the FM said a referendum would be put on the back burner for now and the FM at NO time said that, all she said was she would “reflect” on the result so the media are projecting this nonsense in order so when the FM says different they can start another row, it’s a shoddy media tactic to fool the “not listening folk”

    The desire for Independence is going to rise, and I would predict rather quickly, very soon and very big, and Alec Neil needs a poke in his bitter jealous eye and stop being a baby

  342. Tinto Chiel

    RJS @12.58, Tony Little, 8.21, galamcennalath 9.38, stu mac 9.54: all very thoughtful posts, amongst others.

    Voter fatigue has been manufactured to a great extent by the Media beaming Ruthie’s “We don’t want another referendum” into every home. Those poor voters, having to walk about 500 yards to their local primary! The horror! But it’s just about all you heard on the doorstep, apart from the Two Minute hate against the First Minister.

    The establishment are very scared of another referendum, hence their huge media drive to intimidate the SNP into taking it off the table, which would be suicide for the party.

    We have that commitment in the bank, democratically arrived and to be deployed when the dire effects of Brexit play out.

    For many Scots, voting is simply too much trouble. They don’t really care about what’s going on in the world outside their door, as long as they are all right personally. They don’t like being put on the spot and being made to choose. They are easy meat for the BBC sound bites.

    The only thing that could possibly change this view and switch them to Yes is when they suffer economically from being outwith the EU in a tanking economy. Unfortunately, too many vulnerable and blameless people will be dragged down with them.

    stu mac: well said. Our main problem is “native Scots” who can’t see the wood for the trees or are hard core British nationalists. Some form of residency qualification would be sensible but I can’t see the SG going down that road.

  343. meg merrilees

    mr thms

    re the Spreme court

    I read that article yesterday.
    Does the Supreme Court have legitimacy in Scotland?

    This is the beginning of the post-GE erosion of Scotland’s sovereignty.

    They’re selling it as a wonderful opportunity for the legal profession and interested public to come and see this amazing, wonderful court at work.

    Maybe they need a protest outside the venue – Not in my name.

  344. ScottishPsyche

    Campaign fatigue rather than voter fatigue?

    I think people are not interested in the arguments anymore –
    some because it confronts their own beliefs in an uncomfortable way but also because we now see what is being done to stop real debate. There is a bit of a feeling it is all pointless and there is no level playing field.

    The role of the media in Scotland cannot be overestimated in this. I get the argument that if we protest against the BBC we are seen as Trump like and so on but there is no doubt that we do not get a fair hearing.

    Corbyn supporters woke up to that and their sheer numbers and Momentum meant they had a unified voice to some degree. We are still stuck with McEnany, Loki, Haggerty, Sillars et al telling us how rubbish we are and how we should campaign.They are then given a platform in MSM and the message is amplified.

  345. Scott

    The media all saying how great the Tank is but don’t let us forget who some of her friends are.

    A TWITTER account containing racist, homophobic and sectarian remarks – which belonged to a fisherman photographed with Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson on the campaign trail last week – has been closed down.

    “somebody should take the Nat bitch out” and “somebody take her down please.”

    That is only one of the quotes I sent to her in an email but no reply running away from them as she did when being questioned on TV.
    I wonder if she will get married in Northern Ireland.

  346. Ken500

    The Media are rubbish. The majority know the Media is rubbish. Stop obsessing about it. If they want to destroy their own industry in the crash and be out. If a job. That is their decision. The majorities decision is not influenced by the media. It is a taken in spite of it. The Media fail an economic deficit. If anyone in Scotland wants to protect Scotland. Keep on voting SNP. SNP Vote for Independence. The best protection Scotland could have. Ever month £1/2Billion goes out of Scotland to Westminster because of decision made that the majority in Scotland do not support. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. £20Billion a year.

    If May is not relieved of any duties or responsibilities at Westminster. Immediately. There is going to be a continued decline in the world economy. There could be another banking crash. If the DUP are not brought into line very soon there will be a further decline in the world economy.

    May, Tory/Unionists caused this problem and do not have the ability to put it right. Intellectual pymies, That is why they join Unionist Political Parties. The DUP will have no influence on any affairs in Scotland. They will be too busy trying to sort out their mess in NI. That should be enough to more than keep them busy for a very long time. No taxation without representation. The democratic deficit in Ireland.

  347. Free Scotland

    Anyone seen this pic of the bull-straddler about to kiss fluffy?

    She seems to be checking his beard for crumbs before she commits.

  348. Fred

    Anent the neglected Borderers, do they have to pay prescription charges, tuition fees, home care charges etc’ etc! the peeps in Cumbria & Northumberland have to stump up! I’ll never understand these people, they had an excellent MP in young Calum Kerr but binned him for some chinless wonder! Sadly, forelock-tugging is alive & well yet.

  349. Breastplate

    “I just hope Nicola has spoken with the EU and has assurances a representative from the Scotgov is present at negotiations. Time to put Westminster in their place.”

    Wouldn’t it be great if the EU invited a Scottish delegation to the negotiations after Westminster telling us to butt out.
    It would certainly be an uppercut to the chin of the Empire.

  350. Ken500

    The SNP /Independence sheer numbers and monentum mean there is a unified movement and a platform in the Media.

    (Press) Coverage can be zoomed in from anywhere in the world. No Gov can control the Internet. It would not be beneficial to any country in the world to ban the internet. Some related form of control for some images could be negotiated.

    The BBC can be picked and access on the internet worldwide. Extremely difficult to ban any ‘news’ station. Equally as easy for people to connect and eliminate the lies.

    Thanks Rev Stu and Wings community for giving Independence supporters a voice.

    Thanks a Billion everyone.

  351. Legerwood

    Meg merrilees @ 10 43

    Re Supreme Court of UK.

    Short answer to your question is yes. Civil cases may be appealed to the UK Supreme Court and cases involving human rights.

    The Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom in Scottish Appeals › docs › ju…

    Don’t know if the link will work but there is enough info there to allow you to Google the document.

  352. Fred

    It’s an ill wind! Dame Fortune has smiled on Arlene at long last, still mired by the stupidity & corruption of her Heating Scheme she now finds herself & her knuckle-draggers are in charge of what’s left of the Empire. Theresa’s coffers will be rifled to pay her debts & it will be new flutes & sashes for the boys all round. (Coming to a Chapel near you!) This is the Lords work & it is wondrous in our eyes!

    “Warm your hole with Arlene’s coal!”

  353. Nana

    Last links for now

    Brexit: EU negotiator warns UK ‘I can’t negotiate with myself’

    Theresa May promises to look after those Tory MPs that lost their seats, financially.. yer like You What!!!! Are you real?!?

  354. Ken500

    The Supreme Court has to support Scots Law on any decision. Part of the UK Union agreed terms. losing ECHR court decisions that would cause problems. Any decisions under Scottish Law to ban access to ECHR under Scottish legislation. It doesn’t matter where it sits. It is just a joke. It just is a Blair murdering criminal obstruction. It will not be needed when Scotland is Independent in the EU. ECHR decision will prevail. Part of the Devolution admin.

  355. manandboy

    If Scotland didn’t exist, or gained Independence, the DUP and the other Unionist parties in NI, wouldn’t care a jot. To them, the ‘Union’ is 100% about England.

    It is the same for The British Establishment, the Tory Party and probably much of the population of England. To them, the Union means England with Scotland as a means to an end, which is the exploitation of its rich northerly colony. Scotland has no intrinsic or indigenous value to Unionists anywhere.

    We Scots are effectively a slave nation, held fast and kept in check by continuous and copious amounts of conditioning/ brainwashing/ propaganda. We only need examine any widely held false belief which is widespread in Scotland to see the truth of the previous sentence. Take for example, ‘Scotland is economically dependent on England’. How often do we get told this; how many Scots believe it? More than half the population of Scotland believe this to be true and vote all their lives accordingly. Brainwashed.

    Other examples abound, like the UK is one country. Like ‘I was born in Scotland, but I’m British. Like ‘The oil is not really that important and not worth thinking about’. Have you noticed that Oil NEVER gets talked about in ANY election.

    I hope the point has been made.

  356. Capella

    More and more coming to the conclusion that the GE17 was about saving the Union.

    The Tories tried to beat the SNP but failed. They clearly poured a great deal of money and effort into it. The BBC and media is behaving as if Ruth Davidson won the election in Scotland. But she lost.
    This massive propaganda exercise, coordinated in Westminster, was dependent on Ruth Davidson defeating Nicola Sturgeon. The BBC Live website banner is a big picture of the new cabinet with Ruth Davidson sitting there next to David Mundell.

    They failed to win a majority in Scotland but are going to act as if they won, with the collusion of the media.

    Meanwhile, Arlene Foster of the Dark Money DUP is in Downing Street:

    “We are, first and foremost, Unionists, and therefore we want to secure the Union. And as I said on Friday after the election, the Union is my guiding star, so we will be looking to make sure the Union stays strong.

  357. Dave McEwan Hill

    Meant to put this on here but put it on the previous topic by mistake

    This Brexit debate is becoming a complicating diversion. Our position of EU full membership came with risk but was a simple straightforward one (albeit not shared by all our support). But it did its job and established a democratic deficit (which we are now not using in any useful manner).

    The issue is now dominating our existence when in fact we should be campaigning for independence above all else at all times.

    The position that the best body to make a decision on the EU for Scotland is an independent Scotland should be paramount.

  358. Capella

    BBC Live website – have a laugh at the strong and stable cabinet with RD sitting there beside David Mundell.

    at 11.37 Guy Verhofstadt tweets:
    We are impatiently waiting for the negotiating position of the UK gov. The current uncertainty cannot continue.

  359. Ken500

    A 2/3 year residential qualification could be reasonable. Resist students and folk passing through. Holiday home owners resident elsewhere. Resident elsewhere should not have a vote. That is breaking electoral Law. People in the UK are only supposed to have one vote in their permanent residential area. Proclaimed. Councils are breaking electoral Law by including them in the registration, They can be identified through the Council tax qualification. They should not be given voting rights,

    Many EU citizens settle in Scotland still do not have a vote in IndyRef1 because of the qualifications but students from elsewhere did. People excluded from a vote can always apply for duel citizenship but the terms are still framed by Westminster. Resulting in good folk being chucked out of Scotland. An absolute disgrace. The Scottish Gov should put up a fund to help folk who are targeted from deportation. To meet the necessary qualifications. It would help the Scottish economy in the long term.

  360. Dan Huil

    Does 10 Downing Street have Sash windows? Double-glazed in Empire2.0 insularity.

  361. mike cassidy

    Politics is a Big Boys And Girls game.

    The Unionists fought a dirty game and almost succeeded.

    We have to accept that we are living through a moment when a serial election loser like Davidson can be falsenewsed as a serial winner by the MSM.

    We just need to chill out, watch the Tories rip each other apart with their soft/hard brexit infighting, and await the next GE.

    Then we’ll have a clearer picture of the battleground.

    And while we’re waiting, could somebody please get their finger out and prepare the SNP reps to take the BBC head on. Preferably with mocking humour, but head on it has to be.

  362. Capella

    Oops – 11.27 for Guy Verhhofstadt tweet:

  363. Ken500

    The Union might be Arlene’s guiding star. Her illegal financial backer with UK tax payers money. An illegitimate supply of extreme right focuses money. Conforming to UK Law seems to be Foster/DUP problem. A Law unto themselves. Flouting UK Law at every opportunity. It is more than time that criminal Foster brigade was brought into line before they cause more havoc. Brought into the 21 Century. Or funding is withdrawn, They already get 50% more than any share, £Billions wasted to keep them quiet. Destroying the Irish economy. An absolute disgrace. Before they bring down the whole economy. Foster is a crook who should be in jail. Along with May. Along with the crooked UK Unionists,

  364. Capella

    I have searched the BBC web site but can’t find any picture of the SNP MPs arriving at Westminster with Nicola Sturgeon.
    The National does cover it.

  365. Dave McEwan Hill


    False and very dangerous reasoning, sadly being supported by some of our supporters.

    We will not get opinion polls showing a majority for YES until we announce another referendum and start campaigning for YES.

    Our opponents want a referendum taken off the table. Some sloppy thinkers think we should oblige them.

    When we got 125,000 members with 56 seats that was when we should have started another huge independence campaign. The flawed notion that we would win independence by establishing we could run a devolved administration well has been demolished. As recent unionist spin has proved we will never get any credit in any of the media for running Scotland – no matter how well we do it.
    I have no idea why anybody ever thought we would.

    We need a huge YES launch right now.

  366. manandboy

    Thank you Nana for the Links. As always, a shining star in the firmament that is Wings.

    Brexit: EU negotiator warns UK ‘I can’t negotiate with myself’

    The Chief EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, is urging the British to get organised. He expresses himself most clearly when he says, “I cannot negotiate with myself.”

    Mr Barnier, together with the rest of Europe, are not paying sufficient attention to the actions of the British Government, choosing instead to be guided by what Mrs May says. We here in the UK, know now that what Mrs May says is not worth a button.

    No preparation whatsoever has been made by the Tories, nor are they even close to being ready to begin negotiations. Not one word of explanation about their objectives beyond ‘getting the best deal’ etc, has been uttered by any member of the Government.
    There is not a scrap of evidence to indicate that the Tories have any respect for the EU or its negotiators, nor indeed for the EU Referendum result itself.

    A blind man who is deaf in both ears could tell you that the Tories have no intention of engaging seriously in these negotiations.

    The Emperor has no clothes, and the Tories are not dressed and ready for action. But what do we hear, from the bottom of the political well into which Theresa May has fallen – “I got us into this mess. And I’ll get us out of it”.

    Unbelievable. Unless you’re British and brainwashed.

  367. Tony Little


    Regarding Guy Vehofstadt: He also said this:

    “#Brexit isn’t just about the Tories leaving the EU, it’s about the whole UK. Everyone’s voice should be heard.”

    The “Whole UK” line might become particularly important moving forwards.

  368. Dan Huil

    The EU will play the same role for Scotland as France did for the original 13 colonies of America.

  369. Sinky

    BBC Scotland giving bug licks to Labour’s nonsensical claim that SNP has misused money raised for independence campaign.

    Strange there has been no widespread coverage of the Brexit funds being channelled through DUP.

    Perhaps some organisation should (again) report this to the Electoral Commission then issue a press release and see how many headlines it gets in MSM / BBC

  370. shug

    The EU will not lift a finger to help Scotland.

    England will insist it is an internal matter

    The Scots have to save themselves it is not in the gift anyone else

    One to remember though is, currently Westminster think they are winning and the BBC will be reinforcing this we have to stand firm sure in ourselves and disregard the propaganda.

    Holyrood must get their act together and use the Ulster anti gay flat earth no to evolution brigade and show them as they are. There should be no more orange parades in Glasgow. Tell them to have their service/booze up in a park where they do not bother normal folk. Then watch them protest with their union jacks and goose steppers. Glsagow’s finest will soon swat them down

  371. Capella

    @ Tony Little – Mr GV is one smart cookie. 🙂

  372. starlaw

    will someone please throw a shovel down the hole Theresas in.

  373. Legerwood

    starlaw says:
    13 June, 2017 at 12:28 pm
    will someone please throw a shovel down the hole Theresas in.””


    Why? Has she worn out the one she’s got?

  374. cirsium

    @Tony Little, 12.01

    Regarding Guy Vehofstadt: He also said this:

    “#Brexit isn’t just about the Tories leaving the EU, it’s about the whole UK. Everyone’s voice should be heard.”

    Is that why Ruth Davidson has been placed in the Westminster cabinet?

  375. Nana


    There’s a couple of links on the snp twitter

    Nicola Sturgeon applauded by her MPs as she arrives at Westminster.

    Westminster have been tangoed

  376. Ken500

    The EU will support and help Scotland for continued EU membership. They have already stated so again and again and again and will act accordingly. It s a family of equality and common purpose. Scotland left of centre Gov and ideals fits perfectly with all the EU rules and ideas of common purpose. EU Grants and investment from the ECB renewables are what is helping Scotland to survive at the present moment in spite of Westminster illegal Unionist austerity, amismanagement of the Scottish Economy. Illegal high Tory taxes on the Oil/Gas sector. Against UK/EU/International Law. The Westminster government is a pack of crooks. Wolves on the prowl. The enemy of the people and all the people in the world. Extreme Right wing elements (facist/racism) and greed, has taken over the Unionist/Tory Party. May etc. For some ill conceived personal gain. Enough is never enough for some people.

    The EU will support Scotland and their citizens of common ideals in every way. Membership is already supporting Scotland with investment and thousands of jobs. Invested in the Scotland by the EU. Jobs, grants and investment worth £Billions in revenues investment from the ECB. The nearest single market and advantageous trade deals. Renewables etc, because of EU policies,

  377. Cal

    Seems to be a big push for a soft (sic) brexit now. Many politicians saying UK must stay in single market and some even the customs union. That means they’ve decided to risk a backlash from the anti immigration mob in England.

    The rabid anti EU press – Daily Express, the Sun etc are remarkably low key about all this given that they must see it as a total capitulation – unfettered movement of people, huge sums continuing to flow into Brussels but without anything coming back (regional development funds etc), no more MEPs and therefore no influence on EU policy, still under the control of the ECJ and, if still in the customs union, no ability to strike trade deals with third parties. Wow! That would be a complete humiliation of the UK and nobody is shouting about it.

    The whole thing is particularly bizarre given that the manefestos of the two main parties (which together secured 82.4% of the vote) both contained a commitment to end free movement. It’s almost as if we didn’t live in a democracy….Strange days indeed. But is it sustainable?

  378. ScottieDog

    The city has spoken cal. The city has spoken.

  379. Nana

    David Mundell says MPs will be led by both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson

    Independent no longer archives. Choose to read or don’t, everyone has free will

    Next step close down NI and Hollyrood parliaments.

  380. Flower of Scotland

    Seemingly on BBC politics show….Indyref2 is dead in the water and there is a new law to ban another one!

    I think the SNP not reacting to this rubbish is the best way forward. Let them warble on! Might waken some up!

  381. Liz g

    Shug @ 12.23
    Never Never Never.. LOL or mibbi HA HA HA just to be clear!

    If ever there was a time to hang fire with these marches its now……and for the next few years.

    Interest was falling anyway….So much so they had to start claiming “Kulture”…..
    Remember after the council elections some big wig tweeted that they “weren’t” a dying organisation, which is really indirectly admitting that they had been,and everyone knew it.

    The ONE thing that could increase support for these marches is to ban them.
    The kind of trouble that could and would be stirred up is exactly and I can’t say it strongly enough WHAT Westminster want.
    Please think it through.

    If we left the Union….we have to deal with all the idiots, fighting and probably a reunification campaign!
    Rather than putting all our efforts into building a new Scotland.
    As New Scotland will be London’s biggest competition,this kind of trouble which can be kept going for Decades would suit Westminster down to the ground don’t ye think?

    But more likely people will be so spooked about Scotland turning into a mini N.Ireland the will cling to the Union,and, be encouraged to blame us for starting it.
    With this “unnecessary and unwanted” referendum.

    Best case scenario for them….. Thing’s get bad enough for Westminster to close down Holyrood and impose direct rule, they do have form for this….

    So all us…and I do mean you and me my friend would find ourselves in breach of the CURRENT so called terrorists law’s.
    There is No such thing as terrorist Law….there is ONLY the Law and it’s for everyone!!

    Now I know that this year and probably next year these marches will be at their most annoying but for the Love of Scotland leave them to it.
    If you have to do anything… campaign for everyone to stay home when they are on….and let business leaders who will loose trade do your objecting for you.
    And I would appeal to any of you who have young hot head’s.
    Keep them away any way you can…sit on them if you have too, because that is the best way to ensure that, their,kids don’t have to put up with this shit.
    Lots we can do about letting these marches sink into oblivion,and not in a cack handed way either, rember there is only THE law,and I want to keep my right to march don’t you? But like everything else we need to get the power back first.

  382. ScottishPsyche

    Ae we seeing the effect of the loss of Kevin Pringle and the previous regime’s SNP comms?

    SNP MPS and MSPs sometimes seem too eager to engage with overtly hostile questioning which leads them down a blind alley. I agree that devolved issues should be clearly demarcated when discussions arise. I quite liked how the FM gave a short ‘I’m not giving you a headline’ yesterday. For too long we have been courting a media who is just not that into us!

    There were no big hitters calling out the media except for Alex Salmond and look what they did to him. Contrast that with Labour having Barry Gardiner on DP every week or even Owen Jones and Paul Mason, who had a constant presence on the BBC and Sky and who loudly and persistently confronted them with their bias on social media at every opportunity. Of course, that is the role Rev Stu took on but they never allow him to be heard.

    I think we do need a new Yes movement unconstrained by politeness and unaffiliated to any party. The SNP have had to carry the burden for too long and nothing they can do will ever satisfy everyone.

    I’ve seen others mention a radio station – which seems a good start. Devoy and the other guy did a sort of satirical thing on Youtube during Indy Ref but we need a platform to attract ordinary listeners, the sort who just want to turn on the radio in the morning and not have to work too hard to engage. Commonspace does a thing but their student type politics and contributors, apart from Michael Gray, put me right off. I’m in if there is a crowdfunder.

  383. Robert Louis

    Hey Ruth Davidson, your boss just made an out and out homophobe of the highest order, justice secretary, and that at a time when YOUR party is doing shady deals with an aggressively homophobic extremist political party, the DUP.

    Seriously, how do you look at yourself in the mirror?? First the rape clause, now this. Anything for power eh Ruthie? Including abandoning the rights (which incidentally people fought and suffered long and hard for) which allow YOU to freely walk about and marry your partner?

    Welcome to the nasty party.

  384. galamcennalath

    The Unionist plan comprises, IMO …

    – ignore the SNP as voice of Scotland
    – keep chanting “ScotRef unwanted unnecessary”
    – do not officially recognise ScotRef
    – win 30+ MPs in snap election [failed]
    – set up Davidson as ‘true’ voice of Scotland
    – no Holyrood pro Indy majority in 2021
    – no further devolved powers
    – erode Scottish identity, push British

    Nicola, along with all true Scots, have to fight this at every occasion.

  385. R4

    On BBC lunchtime news after the DUP photoshoot, you can hear

    one MP say The future’s bright, followed by his fellow MP

    saying The future’s orange.

  386. Jack Murphy

    OT. BREXIT. NURSING CONSEQUENCES. I posted this yesterday but it’s a sharp reminder to the people in Scotland exactly what the consequences are of voting ‘OUT of the EU’ and Tory at the General Election.

    Don’t go running to the BBC,the Press or the Scottish Government complaining that you’re having to wait months for hospital treatment.

    “EU nurse applicants drop by 96% since Brexit vote” !!

    Last July, 1,304 nurses from the EU joined the Nursing and Midwifery Council register, compared to 46 in April this year, a fall of 96%…….” !!

    BBC Archived:

  387. Robert Louis

    Scotland already has a supreme court, it is called the court of session and is located in Parliament Square, Edinburgh, just off the Royal mile. It was established in 1742 by our King James V of Scotland.

    It is an abomination of justice and against the treaty of union (article 19, in case you are interested) that this ENGLISH ‘supreme’ court, literally created by Tony Blair just a few years ago, claims to have jurisdiction here. It is a pretendy ‘supreme court’, and an insult to Scotland.

    Nowhere in the union treaty does it even remotely suggest civil cases may be heard outside Scotland. This was something London just decided to do, without ever considering Scotland.

    This bunch of chancers assert they have legitimacy, where they have none – and they know it. It is a b****y disgrace.

    The whole damn lot of them should just b*gger off back to England where they belong, and take their pretendy ‘court’ with them. If I had my way, they whole lot of them would be run out of town. Charlatans the lot of them.

  388. manandboy

    Sinn Fein have never taken their seats in the House of Commons.
    Perhaps because they’ve never had to.

    Till now.

  389. Tinto Chiel

    galam @1.21: sadly, I agree here, ready made to be pushed enthusiastically by the BBC and the press.

    I heard that nursing stat. on Pravdasound4 while making the tea yesterday: chilling, Jack.

    I know why some Tories are now making noises about a soft Brexit, but why should the EU give them more favourable terms? Compromising on the Four Freedoms would surely be very damaging to the whole European project. And there are German elections coming up, are there not? Not a time for Merkel to show weakness, I would have thought.

  390. skintybroko

    RCD (Rape Clause Defender) of the R&B Party being set up for a magnificent fall IMHO. The hard brexiteers will cause ructions and will get their own way in the end, the only reason UKIP voters deserted to the R&B party was because of the Hard Brexit – the next GE is going to spectacularly rebound on them and in Scotland RCD will be toast as many people realise how much they have been taken for granted and are supporting a party that will cosy up to hardline R&B from NI. She is only trying to sound concilatory as she knows the writing is on the wall.

    Nicola should not take Indyref of the table, She couldn’t have been clearer – not now but when the result of brexit negotiations are known – the MSM deliberately spun it on the back of TM’s now is not the time – don’t know how we counter the MSM but the message is getting through slowly, i have a few more converts to Wings and Wee Ginger Dug.

  391. Vestas

    @ manandboy 1:38 pm :

    “Sinn Fein have never taken their seats in the House of Commons.
    Perhaps because they’ve never had to.

    Till now.”

    What part of “voters understand that if they vote SF then they turn their backs on Westminster” don’t you understand?

    If SF sits in Westminster then PIRA (or continuity/etc) will go active again. That’s not hyperbole either, Republicans have been getting increasingly pissed off at the DUP’s financial shenanigans/nepotism & having SF in the English parliament? Crossing the Rubicon for sure!

    SF in Westminster is not an option. End of story.

  392. galamcennalath

    Tinto Chiel says:

    Tories are now making noises about a soft Brexi

    Two possibilities …

    The Leavers sold the voters ideas which will cripple the UK and they feel they need excuses to pull back to a workable soft Brexit. So the noises are genuine.


    The Tories idea of soft will be all the good bits and none of the social and people obligations. It’s a setup so the media can say the UK was ready to compromise but those bad EU folks are intransigent. Crash out and blame the EU. So the noises are fake.

    Which? Honestly I just don’t know! They are Tories, expect anything.

  393. Robert Louis

    Well, well, well. I can just see Theresa and thon loud woman from the DUP literally choking on their sarnies, after hearing Sinn Fein are coming to London.

    Well done Theresa May (loud clapping), is this what you meant when you promised your tory chums last night that you would ‘get them out of this mess’.

    Literally laughing my socks off. Why leave the ‘Ulster problem’ in N.Ireland, when you can bring it right into Westminster instead.

    Meanwhile Jerry Adams has re-stated their will be a referendum on Irish re-unification.

  394. galamcennalath

    It will soon be the 100th anniversary of the 1918 general election which marked the parliamentary end of British Ireland. Sinn Féin won 73 of Ireland’s 105 seats, They refused to go to Westminster and sat in Dublin instead.

    Present circumstances will not cause them to change their policy,

    I did wonder, but the more I read, the more I appreciate why it won’t happen.

    Even if there is no formal Tory-DUP agreement, the DUP are unlikely to allow the Tories to fall.

  395. yesindyref2

    I’m all in favour of the media building up Ruth Davidson, even stealing the SNP slogan “Stronger for Scotland”, because she will have to live up to it – or fall.

    Fair chance she won’t fall, she seems quite wily, even while making mistakes – which the media forgive her for. But she will find that it isn’t easy being “Stronger for Scotland”, and probably the least the Scottish Conservatives will have to become, is in favour of more devolution, which would be another step towards Indy.

    Ultimately there’s no reason why, if the Tories establish themselves in Scotland as theya re doing, that the party itself couldn’t move towards Indy itself.

    With SNP, Greens and SSP / Rise, we’re still only at around 47%, with spikes over 50, and falls below 45. It needs one of the other parties at least to come over to the dark side.

    Which one will be first?

  396. Robert Louis


    “They refused to go to Westminster and sat in Dublin instead.”

    Maybe the SNP should consider doing the same, since aside from potentially bringing down the mad Theresa Government in a week or so, they achieve sweet b*gger all.

  397. yesindyref2

    Timescale for that – in time to hold Indy Ref 2 in March 2019.

  398. yesindyref2

    Just as an addition to that, I think it may well be that a lot of voters who voted Conservative did it as a protest vote, even including Indy supporters, as the Tories were seen to have a real chance of oustng the “presumptious and arrogant” SNP, rather than Labour who were written off.. But that doesn’t mean loyalty to the Tory party.

  399. Valerie

    For those that missed it

    Twitter and Herald confirm. SNP website for the £1m for indyref2 now closed down.

    They got to c480k.

    I’m still pig sick I’m in a country that is in thrall to this shitshow.

  400. manandboy

    What part of “voters understand that if they vote SF then they turn their backs on Westminster” don’t you understand?

    I understand all of it.

    I am saying that Sinn Fein have never been in this position before. The question is what are they going to do about the DUP tipping the seesaw down toward Unionism in NI in such an emphatic way. Are Sinn Fein just going to wave goodbye to parity as set down under the GFA and allow the Unionists to get rich quick – and more powerful at the same time?

  401. Arbroath1320

    Apologies if this has already been posted.

    It is being reported that Sinn Fein are to travel to London to possibly take up their seats in the House of Commons. As anyone who can add two plus two and come up with the correct answer knows when Sinn Fein do this Feartie McFeartie is scuppered. Her TWO seat majority, thanks to getting into bed with the Loyalist terrorists is sunk without trace.

    The Sun can also reveal the Irish Republican party have refused to rule out taking their seats for the first time to vote through a Labour Queen’s Speech if Jeremy Corbyn offered them a referendum on unifying Ireland.

    I have also seen calls on Twitter for M.P.’s to refuse to “pair up” with Tories during votes. This is the old “concept” whereby if an MP from one side is not going to be able to make a vote for whatever reason they come to an “agreement” with an opposition member that they will not vote either thereby cancelling each other out.

    It now looks like Feartie has an almost insurmountable amount of problems in Westminster … AND … she starts Brexit negotiations with the E.U. next week. I suspect the E.U. may look to delay for a couple of days, just long enough for them to gather their thoughts together and get up off the floor where they have have been rolling about laughing their sides off! 😀

  402. yesindyref2

    @Robert Louis “they achieve sweet b*gger all

    Just taking that part, I agree, and in fact what some / a lot of people think really is that they spend their time whinging, something the media portrays with great glee, and May and her cohorts play up to. But they do have to attend.

    The SNP have this line that they are strong and great, but you can make a virtue out of weakness and ineffectiveness. Something along the lines of:

    “There were 56 SNP MPs in Westminster, and only 3 MPs from the other parties, yet we were able to achieve nothing because whenever we put forward an amendment or motion, they and their Westminster parties voted against us or abstained – just because we’re the SNP”

    but put in a more positive way! It was the truth, however, and truth wins in the end. But instead of that they had to basically pretend they were effective. Why?

  403. Nana

    John Major warns Theresa May a DUP deal could eventually lead to a return to violence in Northern Ireland

  404. Valerie


    I would be VERY surprised if SF take their WM seats. They really don’t need to.

    They just have to point out they will not participate in Stormont, due to bias towards DUP, if they are in bed with London.

    If Stormont remains closed, there is a risk of direct rule by London, so you know where that goes.

  405. t42

    This has been in the planning for a while, it was a tactical loss to facilitate a coalition, to facilitate a soft brexit, which handily cancels inyref2 and keeps The City bankers happy.

    The government and the msm are now trying to persuade the electorate that it is the DUP who are forcing a soft brexit on the poor government. That is why the DUP manifesto has been hastily scrubbed from the internet-It was hard Brexit!

  406. Nana

    SNP: All the money raised on #ScotRef website is ringfenced to fight a future independence referendum

    The SNP have reacted furiously to claims they used money raised for an independence campaign to fight the General Election.

  407. Dan Huil

    Aye, the bbc gleefully “reporting” britnat accusations. The money for indyref2 will be needed soon enough. I would be happy for the money to be used to fight the DUP/Westminster law banning indyref2.

  408. yesindyref2

    If the 7 Sinn Fein MPs take up their seats, they should make it a price from Corbyn that there be an alternative Oath to reflect their circumstances. One that promises, perhaps, not to harm the Queen or something, rather than “loyalty” and fealty if that’s what it says. It would be a sacrifice for them to take the current oath, but one that would be noble.

    Such an oath as exists has no place in the 21st century UK democracy, and I’m not a republican (or monarchist for that matter).

  409. Dozie

    SF doesn’t need to take their seats but they can be bit mischievous with it I saw the twinkle in both GA and JC eyes when they were asked about it.

  410. Legerwood

    Robert Louis @ 1.36pm

    The UK Supreme Court was created to take over the judicial function of the House of Lords which resided in the Committee of the Law Lords. So it did not come out of thin air but took over a function that already existed.

    Cases in Scottish Civil law could be appealed to the Law Lords, and now the Supreme Court, but not criminal cases unless there was a Human Rights element.

    You can read a much more detailed and argued case about Scots Law and the Treaty of Union here

    It is an article by Professor Walker.

  411. Glamaig

    t42 says:
    13 June, 2017 at 2:32 pm
    That is why the DUP manifesto has been hastily scrubbed from the internet-It was hard Brexit!’

    I dont think it has, Ive just downloaded it. I wouldnt say its hard Brexit – its a have-cake-and eat it, fantasy wish-list. And they want more Union Jacks, they are feeling left out of the promote British identity campaign.

  412. yesindyref2

    Ooh, ouch, BBC stirring it up with spending per capita.

    I wonder if there will be any Tories vote against the Queen’s Speech?

  413. Robert Louis

    Legerwood at 242pm

    Yes, but when the house of Lords took it upon themselves to hear Scots law civil cases, they did so in contravention of the treaty of union. That is historical fact, and why the pretendy supreme court has no legitimacy. Indeed if I remember correctly, it was one of many things which almost caused the treaty of union to be ended, not very long after it was signed. Well aware of the history of the pretendy supreme court, and its predecessor in the Law Lords.

    Just one of many examples of London breaching the union treaty as and when they feel like it. It was a long time ago (hundreds of years), can’t remember the date.

    Fact is such cases should always be heard in the Court of Session in Edinburgh, as it was before the London house of Lords unilaterally decided they would hear them in London.

    The current London ‘supreme’ pretendy court, was created by Tony Blair. As such they are charlatans, pretending they have legitimacy – and they know it. I could just make up a court, and call it the world supreme court, but it doesn’t give it legitimacy.

    They shoukld b*gger off back to London and take their pretendy court with them. We have a REAL supreme court in Scotland, established by King James V, and still sitting to this day.

  414. schrodingers cat

    Which one will be first?

    slab voters

  415. Proud Cybernat

    “Her TWO seat majority, thanks to getting into bed with the Loyalist terrorists is sunk without trace.”

    Mayhem with DUP will have 328 seats which is 3 seats over the midline of 325. Still have a majority with Sinn Fein in the HoC but bigger majority if they’re not in HoC (presuming, of course, SF would never vote with the Tories).

  416. schrodingers cat

    if SF do take seats, i hope they sit next to the libdems 🙂

    seat scrabble about to take place??

    seriously, i cant see sf taking their seats, but hey ho, we live in interesting times

  417. galamcennalath

    I believe a Queen’s Speech needs over half of MPs to be valid

    If so, the DUP must vote for it, not even abstain.

    Why should they vote for it without some concessions in it?

  418. Richard Duncan

    I was as shocked as everyone last week .

    Since then my shock has turned to anger (like many) and to be honest apathy.

    I spent all day taking folk to the polls and pushing like mad to get the voters out and was feckin fuming that Labour won Midlothian .

    I come on here for a wee bit of a break and a lift and find everyone arguing .

    BBCTELLSLIES – who the hell are you and who made you sherrif here ? Mike wants blood and soil nationalism and the last straw was Fat Brian telling us the Ruth party won Scotland . ( Thanks Stoker missed that one) WE covered this in 2012 to 2014 but the same shit keeps coming back . Are you all deaf and blind to whats happening here .

    WE Know the BBC and STV and all the others lie . And yet here we are no further or better off than 2014 . I feel worse now than i did then and i was ill after the ref result.

    i will still pay my subs to the SNP and hope one fecking day someone in the party grows a pair but i doubt it and i have no one else to vote for . But i give up.

    I have SNP members friends who voted Labour last week ( shakes heed) . No matter how much evidence you show them they fall back to the default position. And i cannot go on constantly telling them .

    They say you get the govt you deserve and we are about to suffer. I am disabled and have been on a knife edge for the last 3 years .

    Treated like a scrounger and ignored now i cant work or play a part in society …I was hoping for support from my countrymen and women but they chose a different way and folk like me are doomed . We cant fight back anymore . Our disabilities have made that impossible.

    I worry my kids have no future and i see Scotland being the backwater it has always been . Ignored because Scots wont fight for what is theirs .

    I am so ashamed i cannot get past this issue .

    The trolls are out in force and now more than ever we argue amongst ourselves . Take a look back over this weeks comments, which in the past lifted me but now make me feel worse than ever.

    I wish you all luck ( you real Wingers know who you are ) and i will always drop a few bob in any Wings fund runs . But i have enough on plate surviving illness without more Scot against Scot.

    WE will never learn. We have become a region of Greater England and to see so many happy with that has finished me .

    I am going to concentrate on getting bye with my disabilities and pray for my kids and their kids .

    Thatcher was hated and she did no where near the damage that the unionist parties have done since the tories came to power.

    Now the feckin Irish nutters in the DUP have more say over my country than our own politicians

    Feck you Scotland you deserve everything you get 🙁

    YESGUY 2011-2017 .

  419. colin Alexander

    We’re gonnae get independence by indi-ref? I’d be delighted if we did.

    But where is this indi-ref? The Scottish Parliament voted for indi-ref on 28th March 2017.

    Nicola Sturgeon wrote to TM on, approx. 31 March 2017:

    “I am therefore writing to begin early discussions between our governments to agree an Order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 that would enable a referendum to be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament.”

    We know the response: F***K off, or words that effect.

    NS also said: “However, if that is not yet possible, I will set out to the Scottish Parliament the steps I intend to take to ensure that progress is made towards a referendum.”

    Following the GE, Ms Sturgeon said she would “reflect carefully” on the result.

    So,if, as most seem to suggest, the only option is independence via a Holyrood referendum, when is NS gonnae update Holyrood on the next step to this indi-ref?

    Holyrood is gonnae be shut from 1 July 2017 till 3 September 2917.

    ( The other issue is how you gonnae convince enough of the majority who are No voters to win a indi-referendum? As people point out, even since 2014, the Union forces have upped their game, while the YES campaign got shut down by the SNP, who even made an airse of their own 2017 GE campaign.

    So how exactly are you gonnae win this time, when the NO campaign is better
    organised than ever and the SNP are rubbish at running campaigns? Oops, apologies if it’s heresy to give honest criticism of the SNP).

    Another aside, it’s undemocratic for WM to decide what we can and can’t have. We are all agreed on that.

    But, for WoS comments to state we can only choose indi or the current WM is sovereign position, is just as dictatorial.

    If people want the option of Holyrood sovereignty within the Union, who am I or anyone to say, you can’t have that option because I and others prefer independence?

    AS and Cameron were wrong to deny voters the chance to choose Home Rule. I agree the debate has moved on since then.

    As I’ve explained at length, I suggest there should be options:

    1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    2. Should Scotland remain in the The Union with Holyrood sovereign in all Scottish matters?

    3. Should Scotland remain in the Union with Westminster sovereign in all Scottish matters?

    (Holyrood sovereign would be more than Home Rule or Devo Max, as those would have had WM continuing to be sovereign and devolving power to Scotland.

    So, no I’m not suggesting Gordon Brown’s idea at all. Holyrood sovereignty would mean the opposite of Mr Brown’s mince. Scotland is sovereign; ultimate power, the final say on all matters affecting Scotland lies with Holyrood as the representatives of Scottish democratic sovereignty.

  420. Fred

    @ Robert Louis, well said on this Supreme Court, it’s just a gravy train for the likes of Lord Hope to feather his Unionist nest! A couple of centuries out with James V though kid!

  421. geeo

    @colin alexander.

    I have read some crackerjack posts on here, so one more does not surprise me.

    You advocate 2 options for Yes voters and one unionist option.

    Have you no self awareness of how that would split the pro indy vote ?

    As for you ridiculous notion that “holyrood sovereign would be MORE than devo max or home rule”…more than those things are INDEPENDENCE in all but name, so why the fuck would we have that and NOT be independent ?

    Get a grip.

  422. schrodingers catk

    Richard Duncan

    BBCTELLSLIES is a blatent yoon troll, he has been trying to start trouble 4 a few days, stu will hammer him soon

    on a worrying note, a lot of anti snp vids on you tube at the moment talking about snp thugs etc, eg

    SNP activists RIP DOWN Union Jack and defy Sturgeon with biggest ever independence march


  423. Peter McCulloch

    I am sorry but all this speculation about whether or not SF will take their seats and what they would or would not do in the commons is a complete irrelevance.

    You can bet Labour is not bothering about any of this nonsense, it is concentrating its attention on its chance to form a minority Government at Westminster or for another general election to be called.

    We already have Labour MSP James Kelly claiming Labour is remaining on election mode and being 5% behind in some seats, is looking to take more seats from the SNP in any forthcoming election .

  424. Robert J. Sutherland

    Richard Duncan @ 15:27,

    Hi Richard. Sorry you’re not well, which already is a weight to have to carry. I think we all understand your frustration that more people aren’t standing up for themselves and their rights as they should be, because we feel it too.

    There’s many reasons for that, and I won’t rehearse them all here. But as I posted earlier, many people are currently in a state of denial because they’re aware what an enormous issue is looming and aren’t ready to confront it yet.

    But don’t despair, my friend. If you look at the “No to Yes” videos you can see the evidence of people who have already taken that vital step, and I believe that many others are working up to it. They just need some more time.

    A UKGE is the hardest test to have to endure, with a heavy concentration of attention in the media on the two English parties, and all the Unionist resources being thrown at the SNP on top, and yet the SNP have prevailed. (Rude Gal must be privately grinding her teeth at her failure to win a majority, or with the help of LibLab, but you’ll never get even a hint of that in public.)

    So “chin-up”. Progress is never smooth or unidirectionsl, it goes in fits and starts, frustrating as that can sometimes be. The latest incarnation of the UKGov, whatever it is, will surely be a perfect illustration that those who currently presume to govern over us are in fact fundamentally incapable of doing so. And people will notice.

  425. Chic McGregor

    The official excuse for creating the SC was that it was because the HoL was compromised by member’s allegiance to political parties.

    The creation of a UK Supreme Court is not yet in the same position as the one in Canada.

    In Canada a Bill of Rights was passed extending the Supreme Court purview there to include constitutional matters.

    The UK SC is still working under the 1998 Human Rights act which only extends as far as making it possible for a UK judiciary to mirror, and therefore adjudicate by proxy, on European Human Rights treaties (various). The European judicial bodies responsible for maintaining these rights are still amenable to vertical supplication from individual European citizens if they can make a case that all domestic remedies have been pursued and exhausted.

    However, none of the European Human Rights treaties or judicial bodies have a purview for constitutional matters.

    Any pursuit of a constitutional status nature would have to be pursued via alleged infringement of international Human Rights treaties (various) by supplication to the UN/ICJ.

    The 1998 Human Rights Act does not enact constitutional status powers. Whether the proposed UK Bill of Rights does so I have been unable to ascertain, finding very little on its content. A vague “To improve National Identity” being the only constitutionally related comment I have found.

    However, given the history, I would expect it to attempt to do so.

    As it stands the UKSC does not have a remit to adjudicate on constitutional status matters.

    They can, of course, give an opinion, for example recently on the Sewel Convention but that was more an adjudication of Parliamentary procedural matters rather than a head on constitutional ruling.

    I believe the UKSC competence to declare an indyref2 illegal can still be challenged as it stands, even within a UK context since there has been no empowering legislation and that subsequent supplication to the UN would b more than justified if that were to happen.

  426. Robert J. Sutherland

    geeo @ 15:39,

    Another troll, I fear. He was pushing federalism on another thread a day or so ago. Among other confusions. Ignore.

  427. colin Alexander

    @geeo Wrong.

    I give two options for Scottish sovereignty: one with full independence. One with Scottish sovereignty within the Union.

    The third option is for WM sovereignty.

    I get your point about people in favour of Scottish sovereignty splitting their vote between sovereignty within the Union vs Full indi.

    In response to that, it could be done on PR basis like the council election.

    1st preference
    2nd preference
    3rd preference

    Least popular option eliminated and second choices reallocated, till we reach the most popular choice.

    Much more complicated, but much more democratic too.

  428. Smallaxe

    Richard Duncan: (Yes Guy)

    I understand exactly how you feel, I am in the same horrible position that you find yourself in, frustration and anger I can understand but apathy never. I can get very depressed at times with the situation that we find ourselves in but it is for my children and grandchildren that I continue the fight for Scotlands freedom.

    Please rethink your decision to give up, we need you even if you think no one else does. I can do little more than turn up at marches and give what little money I can afford to our cause. I will give you my e-mail address if you want to talk to someone in the same position as yourself.
    Don’t let the bastards grind you down. That is letting them win!

    Peace and Love to you and yours, my Friend

  429. geeo

    I am of the opinion that there will be a new uk election to coincide wth the German election.

  430. geeo

    @colin the trolling tit.

    Fuck off ya fanny.

    Forget responding, you are on a deaf ear now.

  431. yesindyref2

    @ Richard Duncan: “Since then my shock has turned to anger (like many) and to be honest apathy.

    Anger is good, if channeled.

    My motto I came up with years ago which works is “Always make a good thing out of a bad thing”. Can’t be done with personal and family things, but I’m quite blessed for that. Just the rest of it is shite, like money!

    But it does work as a motto.

    What’s good about this? The pressure is off, and it seems to me the pressure is now on the Unionists to perform their tricks, sit up and beg, fetch the bone, throw the ball, eat the stick, be sick all over the litter tray, that sort of thing. While we watch and point and laugh laugh laugh.

  432. crazycat

    I don’t believe Sinn Féin will take their seats, but surely the Oath of Allegiance should be changed anyway?

    Here’s a campaign to do just that, started before the election. I know people’s views on petitions, which I largely share, but I’ll provide the link so you can think about it:

  433. Capella

    Good news! Outlander will be broadcast by Channel 4 starting later this month:

  434. geeo

    This made me genuinely laugh out loud…

    The prize for lack of self awareness goes to…..this guy…

    Guy marching in O-O sash says, with zero hint of irony that “Alex Salmond is a birn again jacobite living in the 17th century..

  435. yesindyref2

    I don’t think he’s a troll, he has a different take.

    Don’t forget that pre-ref, support for Indy was perhaps 30%, with 33% in favour of more powers – devo-max – and half of them moved over to a YES vote because they could see that the unionist party offers were hot air and rubbish. Like MacWhirter for instance.

    But with a possibility of pressure to get a devo-max, they are likely to at least look at the new possibilities.

    And the thing is that if it is a kind of reverse devolution, the way it always should have been, with Holyrood in charge of what it delegates to Westminster, Indy then is absolutely totally in control of Holyrood, not Westminster. They’d be unable to hold us hostage.

    YES still has a huge mixture of different beliefs in it, and that’s its strength, not its weakness. And some are on the custp – half in, half out. We need to encourage them all the way in, not spit them out like a discarded midget gem!

    Mmm, where’s my packet …

  436. Big Jock

    Not sure I can actually be bothered with this crap anymore. Scotland just helped the Tories stay in power. We are effectively being governed in part by a party worse than UKIP.

    Silence from the SNP is not helpful to our movement. Leaders need to lead not backslide and disappear. I am not happy that Nicola is constantly waiting for Brexit and what WM next move is. It looks like she isn’t sure what to do anymore and can only follow.

    We are being played with by the English government and Nicola needs to stop this game. We must have our own agenda and a clear path of our own making.

    Personally I wasn’t happy that the SNP compromised on what Scotland voted for i.e full EU membership. We are now in a position where we have lost the Brexiteers who supported us. So who are we afraid of now.

    Scotland should choose it’s future, not take bits and bobs of someone else’s future.

    All of the dismay and anger on here is because no-one is leading us. Events are leading strategy rather than strategy leading our defined path.

    Reactive rather than pro-active is how we got here. Something has to change and it’s not going to just happen. The wheels have to be put in motion and the Greens have at least started this by a petition for indy ref 2.

  437. Liz g

    Colin Alexander
    Last communication from me as well!
    If you are genuine ??? go educate yourself on political & legal Sovereignty and the difference between them.

    Ye might want to take a pass at the function of a section 30 order as well.

    Yer talkin actual rubbish,the Sovereignty’s all of them are non compatible…never have been.
    And even if they were the English electorate don’t seem to want parity of power anyway.

    So to coin a phrase….go home and think again…
    Educate yourself on the subject you want to debate and try again.
    We don’t have the time to waste we’ve a referendum tae win!

    Sovereignty within the Union oh, FFS, next ye will hiv us aw up Ben Nevis wating fur rapture….fool…

  438. Nana

    @Richard Duncan

    I’m sorry to read you are on the point of giving up. If I remember rightly you and I have been wingers for a long time and I struggle every day and I get down and dispirited along with everyone else.

    I feel the Britnats are in panic mode right now, throwing everything they can as a last ditch attempt to prevent independence. They want us to go away and give up, lets not give them that victory.

    We knew it wasn’t going to be easy and at least we have wings where we can vent our frustrations. Please have a rethink.

  439. Robert J. Sutherland

    yesindyref2 @ 16:29,

    Exploring the possibilities of how best to garner support and move forward is one thing, but attempting to resurrect El Gordo’s brilliant diversionary wheeze of federalism is just too much. It’s never going to fly, and anyone who has thought about it for more than a minute knows it, not least because England doesn’t need it and doesn’t give a toss.

    So what purpose does it serve to try and breathe life back into this rotting corpse? It’s just the Vow Mk.2, a cynical diversion to attempt to scupper a second indyref.

  440. Liz g

    Big Jock @ 4.29
    Mon Big Jock don’t be like that…
    Nicola and the SNP are actually dain whit Rev Stu said.
    Sit back and let this play out for a bit..
    So I took that to be code for not interrupting them!
    We can respond to what has happened better when it’s finished happening.
    Espically since the chaos it no in Holyrood.
    Up here it’s Ruth the mooth and she isnay the politician she thinks she is…. it’s just that her friends have the cameras.
    Now the Rev did say sit back but he didn’t say don’t use the time to bounce ideas around,and plot!!!
    We have been at this since 2013,a wee breather is no a bad thing.
    The Rev also asked? on Twitter.. I think mibbi to a journalist?..Why shouldn we park it (Indy) support in the polls has stayed rock solid!!
    So there ye go and don’t forget we only need 5% and,and we haven’t even started campaigning yet.

  441. Sarah

    @Meg, Liz, Black Donald 12.54 a.m., Crazycat 12.57 a.m., Molly 09.55, Psyche 1.15 p.m.

    It seems a lot of us agree that Yes needs to use the new technology methods to inform people of the facts as well as to get out the vote next time.

    A combined effort by the alternative media plus Yessers supported by a combined fundraiser would surely make a significant difference. For example Canterbury has had a Conservative MP for probably ever despite being a town with many many places of higher/further education so masses of students – this time a Labour MP won! It must have been the app-type stuff that got them voting.

    Any Wingers with contacts in alternative media and other indy sites e.g. to Inform Scotland – please pass on this message urgently – that we will support a fundraiser to fund a service using new targeted technology to spread facts and get out the vote.

  442. yesindyref2

    You’d have thought they would settle down and enjoy the Tory “victory”, but they’re getting more frenzied.

    So much the better!

    As I just posted in the Herald, the SNP should categoricaly refuse to discuss Indy Ref 2 for at least a couple of weeks, perhaps longer, as that will drive the anti-SNP media and parties absolutely crackers with desperation.

  443. colin Alexander

    @Robert J. Sutherland:

    I never advocated federalism. I said almost like federalism, almost like Home Rule.

    The crucial difference is Scotland would be sovereign. That’s a crucial, massive difference to anything Mr Brown, Home Rulers or federalists suggest.

    My personal preference would be full independence followed by a separate decision on whether Scotland joins any trading bloc.

    But I’m a realist too, I recognise that opinion polls have consistently put full independence in the (slight 5-10% behind) minority. Aye, before any campaign.

    If polls shift and it looks like a massive majority favour indi, great.

    If they don’t and the SNP continue to muck things up, then it does the YES cause no favours at all.

    Yes went all or nothing for full indi in 2014 – and lost.

    It got disbanded by the SNP who accepted crumbs from the Smith Commission.

    So, I’m a troll for pointing out doing exactly the same again may not be the best idea, especially when the NO campaign has learned it’s lessons well and upped it’s game, whereas with all hopes pinned on the SNP, YES doesn’t even exist now. And the SNP mucked up their own GE campaign. But you expect them to win a YES campaign for us?

    “Ah but it’s they unionists, the BBC, the MSM, they conspire, they fight dirty, they have unlimited funds to finance their lies blah blah blah”.

    Too right they do. They will also do all they can to torpedo an indi-campaign and independence. That’s the reality of the situation. Get used to it.

    So, why did Cameron want in 2014, the indi-ref confined to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country?

    Cameron believed given that choice, Scottish sovereignty would lose. He got it right. When that same question is asked in the same form, opinion polls still give the same result, No wins.

    However, on the plus side, it’s amazing that YES still commands near 50% despite three years of anti-indi propaganda being pumped out on a daily basis and there being no organised YES campaign.

    So, what does the SNP do, if TM still says No to an indi-ref?
    Where is this announcement about indi-ref to the SP?
    NS has about two weeks before recess.

    You’re up against the best that money and power can buy, and you want to frame the question the way the Unionists wanted (again), a question that caused YES to gain almost nothing from all the hard work in 2014?

    Anything else to make it harder to win? Why not also agree that a winning margin must be 75% for yes? (I’m being sarcastic).

    Doing everything else the same as 2014: same campaign, same question, same naivety. It will be like lambs to the slaughter.

  444. manandboy

    When asked today how long might the DUP support the Tories, the answer was ‘for as long as Jeremy Corbyn is leader of the Labour Party’. The DUP, swallowing whole the British propaganda and atrocious smearing of Jeremy Corbyn.

    The British Establishment is exposing itself in ways rarely seen. Such is the pressure created by the Neo-Liberal’s insatiable lust for even more of the cash and assets which belong to the Taxpayer. When the Establishment sees the established order change and a new threat to their wealth and power emerges. The tension between these two forces seems to be what is driving the upheaval we are witnessing both here in the UK and elsewhere. Played out on the stage of Brexit, but even more so in the arena of Scottish Independence, the battle rages on.

    And it’s not yet obvious which side will prevail, not by a long way. Not as long as the huge weight of dissatisfaction and frustration felt by so many is still to be resolved. But as more and more of it turns to anger in the face of self-serving politicians with their endless and empty rhetoric, so the pressure increases. This is the balloon we are all in. Sooner or later it will burst.
    Alternatively, it could be deflated by releasing some of the pressure, but it’s surely too late for that. Theresa May knows its all or nothing, and for her and her Establishment employers, nothing isn’t an option. She won’t resign and hand everything over to Corbyn.

  445. yesindyref2

    @colin Alexander
    New ideas should always be discussed. I read your postings in the H and here, please keep them coming.


  446. schrodingers cat

    just a thought

    if after brexit, and it goes bad, nicola’s request for a section 30 might be accepted, especially if we promise the snp mps will abstain during the campaign period, and obviously leave westminster after a yes vote

    it would leave treeza with a majority, even if the dup dont like it 🙂

  447. colin Alexander

    I also disagree with the view that if the UK Govt are in trouble you sit back and enjoy it.

    Nonsense. if you want to win against a dirty fighter, an enemy much more powerful than you are, you kick them when they are down, show no mercy. Strike when they are disorganised and at their weakest.

    When Sinn Feinn are pushing on Irish sovereignty, when the UK Govt’s sovereignty is based on courting the DUP,while the UK Govt are facing Brexit negotiations, now is exactly the time to push on Scottish sovereignty.

    Demanding Scottish sovereignty is recognised within the Union – NOW.

    If we already have sovereignty by the end of Brexit, the SP can decide when to have an indi-ref, the wording and everything else.

    Indi-ref is for years away anyway, originally scheduled for late 2018/19 and slipping away (there’s a fair chance it will never happen for long after that.)

  448. Big Jock

    Hey scrodinger great idea. However remember the old tartan Tory label. Would be a little bit true if the SNP helped destroy the RUK for its own means.

  449. colin Alexander

    To Stu, how about an opinion poll using the three question I quoted earlier and counted by PR as used in Council elections?

    Viz: Full indi or Scottish sovereignty within the Union or WM sovereignty within the Union

    Rather and argue and slag, wait and see what results that produces. If the results bring positive results for Scottish sovereignty, it’s always something worth considering.

  450. Meg merrilees

    Yes indyref 2 @ 2.55

    So the truth is slowly coming out.
    I wonder what ‘little Englanders’ will think when they find out that Scotland doesn’t get the most ‘subsidy’ after all.

    Maybe there are other things that will come out now too and possibly Scotland won’t be the big bad bogeyman any more???

    Who knows – there’s so much crazy stuff going on just now you can think outside the box and it almost happens before your eyes!

  451. ben madigan

    @ Glamaig who said:

    “And they want more Union Jacks, they are feeling left out of the promote British identity campaign”.

    have a look at the pics of Ms May’s and Downing St makeover! Enjoy!

    @ Richard Duncan aka YESGUY “Now the feckin Irish nutters in the DUP have more say over my country than our own politicians”

    Think a lot of people in England, Wales and NI share your view.The petition against the unholy alliance is nearly up to 3/4 million.The only positive thing is that all the publicity has made people aware of what the DUP stanglehold on NI really signifies.

    Feel for your disappointment in our fellow Scots as they did not vote SNP and your rage at yet another Tory government, this time allied with extreme-right evangelical, creationist, anti LBGT and anti-everyone else except the orange.

    despite all that, I am confident that sometime soon your day will come as Scotland gains her Independence.

    Wishing you all the best for yourself and your family as you focus on your own private struggles now.
    ben madigan

  452. yesindyref2

    @colin Alexander
    The SNP will be part of the opposition, and their demands can be totally ignored. It’s never a good idea to demand when the other person / party can just say “get lost”.

    Only DUP can demand, so can the Scottish and Welsh Conservatives.

  453. Big Jock

    In most countries aspiring to be independent. Voting for the national party means you want independence.

    The SNP made the 2015 and 16 elections about government not independence. They in that instant changed themselves into another party not a movement. They lost 21 seats in 2017 because the Tories made sure the public knew what they really were. So people voted against a movement not a party.

    It was clever tactically for the SNP to disguise themselves as another party of government. But it is now causing long term harm. They created an illusion of a radically different Scotland. But 13% of the 2015 voters were unionists or indi lite.

    So we now know that Scotland is only 40% different from RUK. Before it was 52% different including the Greens. So it’s possibly more unionist than we think. 2015 wasn’t a high water mark, it was an illusion of radicalism.

    I accept that some yes supporters voted Labour. But the fact they did so easily means the SNP stopped being a movement and became just another party.

    I think the SNP need to get back to being a movement and stop being a party. We all bought into the myth of 2015. Underneath we all thought what difference does it make if they just sit in Westminster.

    Winning seats is not winning independence. Time for a rainbow coalition. Bring our movement together, from all people in all parties. That’s how you win not winning elections over and over again.

    People who always say calm down the SNP have a plan are also naive. The SNP screwed up this election, they don’t always know best. They get it wrong sometimes.

    To me this is the moment Scotland dies or the moment Scotland moves to independence. There is no more time we have 4 years to do this.

  454. colin Alexander

    In matters affecting Scotland it would not be parity of power: Scotland would be sovereign. Scotland’s Parliament would be the ultimate power.

    HRD would have the power of veto or amendment on WM legislation that applies to Scotland.

    It wouldn’t be up to England’s electorate what Scotland does. We wouldn’t be telling rUK what to do either, just asserting our sovereignty, that rUK are not our masters either.

    If Scottish sovereignty as part of the Union was in the next manifesto and a party wins on that basis, that’s the mandate established.

    When the people of Scotland democratically choose this, this is the assertion of sovereignty within the Union ( I believe we have had that sovereignty all the time but were not allowed to assert it.)

    Let’s not forget, it’s less than a 100 years ago when working class men got to vote and even less since women did.

  455. colin Alexander

    I’m pro-independence and voted SNP a few days ago.

    I voted for the sitting MP (SNP) because I campaigned with her in 2015 and know she has helped constituents and works hard and is sincere.

    I did not vote for her because she is SNP.

    As someone who is pro-independence I was not persuaded to vote SNP by AS and NS making speeches saying this is about a strong voice for Scotland at Wm. I was not convinced by talk of a Triple lock. We had that mandate already at WM.

    All this stupid rhetoric after years of pointing out it’s a waste of time sending MPs to WM, the SNP campaign was based on: send as many SNP MPs as possible to WM.

    What I took from that was: the only good reason for voting SNP at a GE is if they are standing for UDI / Indi-ref, but they aren’t standing for that.

    But just vote for us anyway, so we can go and moan at the Tories and look important and get on the telly. But voting for us won’t really do you any good. Won’t do Scotland any good. Won’t change anything. But the money’s good for us.

  456. colin Alexander

    @Ken500 UDI wouldn’t be illegal if it were in the manifesto and the SNP democratically won the election on that basis. They would have a democratic mandate.

    But it’s by the by. It won’t happen under the current SNP.

    Only a YES campaign free of career politicians would stand on UDI. That won’t happen either. YESsers are in thrall to the SNP.

    The SNP have chosen centre-left establishment party politics over independence as a primary goal.

  457. Smallaxe

    This can not be denied!

    Peace Always

  458. K1

    Pity the Tories didn’t think they were shite Colin, eh?

    They threw an awful lot of money into specifically targeting with both Labour and Libdem tactical voting from no doubt top down level, areas in the country where some of the biggest names in the SNP lost their seats.

    And you think the SNP MP’s weren’t effective?

    Ah know who I’d rather have as the MP for my area, it isn’t Labour or Tory or Libdem. We vote in UK GE for reps that mirror out outlook on a range of issues. Once upon a time we only had 6, now we have 35, with the astounding anomaly of 2015 put into persepective. Conflating the independence movement with the rise and fall of the SNP’s fortunes is exactly the premise that the Tories want people to view these recent results in, as ‘proving’ there is no appetite for independence. The reality is, we’re still roughly split 50/50 across the country.

    Either see it their way and fall for that narrative and give up pursuing what you say you want because you ‘believe’ them. Or switch off that narrative and think for yourself.

    This isn’t over by a long, long way. We’re in the the throws of the end game. That’s the truth of the matter.

  459. Liz g

    Colin Alexander… I lied,well not really I am trusting indyref2 that your ok.
    And I am sorry if I got you wrong.
    But you really don’t seem to grasp the Sovereignty stuff,so much so it comes across as if you are at it.

    Let’s say all that you suggested is in place how does that Square with Westminster’s ultimate Sovereignty ?
    The kind it claims it exercises right now,why would it give it up?
    Can it give it up?
    Would the English electorate agree?
    Why would they.

    A veto ! Like the one Nicola Sturgeon was supposed to have over Brexit?
    That went well,and it wasn’t even real.
    Who gets the oil revenue why would they give it up…why should we share it ?

    Who decides the issues where there’s no agreement?
    Because who ever that is …. there’s where all the Sovereignty is.
    England and a big portion of it’s electorate couldn’t share a tiny bit of political Sovereignty,and a smidgen of leagal Sovereignty with Europe.
    To have to share with us that which they once controlled is reaching don’t ye think?

  460. Big Jock

    To be honest I am not sure of the best way forward for for Scotland. We are now being marginalised and locked out of power. The SNP barely feature on the English news now. Remember when all the talk was of Sturgeon and the Scottish question!

    So whatever we do it can’t be just more sitting around waiting for a favourable wind. We can’t keep playing by Westminsters rules. It has gotten 56 mps sod all. We must press on with indy ref 2 and be bold and confident in doing so.

    A referendum is not won in the polls before the referendum is called. It’s won in the campaign after it is called.

    Give people no choice and you know the future. Give them the choice and we can change the future. Independence won’t just happen because people expect it to. It’s not inevitable, nothing is. We all have to make sure it happens.

    The SNP are going to need some brave leadership and thick skins. The media will set the guns to rapid fire, but they must carry on.


    “As for “holyrood sovereign would be MORE than devo max or home rule”

    …more than those things are INDEPENDENCE in all but name, so why the fuck would we have that and NOT be independent ?”

    It wouldn’t be independence, but we would have sovereignty, in the sense Scotland has the final ultimate say. Just like the UK allowed the EU to make laws for the UK, but at the end of the day, they could say NO. As the UK kept sovereignty.

    Why offer Scottish sovereignty instead of independence? I would offer that option because more of the 55% would vote for that than full independence ( in my opinion). It’s a vote winner.

    It’s more easily achievable than asking for full independence and having no Union at all.

    Compare it to a marriage. Currently one partner bosses the other about. One option of solving that is divorce = independence.

    The other option is self-assertion, I still love you, but I’m equal in this relationship. We cooperate as equals from now on, I don’t take orders from you. You’re my partner, not my boss.

  462. colin alexander

    @Liz g

    It’s ok, no hard feelings.

    People power. You, me, Scotland’s people. That’s what would give the assertion of Scottish sovereignty it’s credibility.

    WE THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND ARE SOVEREIGN. That’s what gives it it’s legitimacy. You can argue that it would be challenged in the courts etc.

    But would any of the political parties say: we are against the democratic sovereignty of the Scottish people?

    OK, we already know they are, but it’s hidden behind “independence would be economically damaging” arguments. That argument is killed, stone dead, if we don’t leave the Union, but are sovereign within it.

    Isn’t that what the whole YES campaign was based on? Sovereignty?

    Belgium was blocking the EU-Canada trade deal until it was ratified by its regional parliaments ( though it is a federation).

    Imagine if Scotland had that same sovereign power. That’s more than Home Rule. That’s real power. Real sovereingty.

    So, what if England has no stomach for federalism. We don’t need a federation, we already have Scotland and the Union. Why can’t we assert our sovereignty within the Union?

    “The English won’t allow us” I’ll get in response.

    Well, if they won’t allow us sovereignty within the Union, why do people believe an indi-ref would give us sovereignty outside the union?

    If the UK will totally defy the Scottish electorate in such an extreme way, why would they respect a YES vote?

    It would be a democratic outrage. So would overruling Scottish sovereignty within the Union if Scotland voted for that.

    If the courts ruled it’s legally impossible and WM ruled they cannot / will not legislate to make it legally possible.

    If they say Scotland cannot be sovereign. Then, that is a fantastic recruiting sergeant for independence.


    Imagine SNP MPs turning up at WM: Following a democratic vote: We declare on behalf of the people of Scotland that Holyrood is sovereign in all legislative matters pertaining to Scotland.

    Scotland remains part of the Union, but henceforth any legislation affecting Scotland must be scrutinised and ratified by Holyrood.

    Henceforth, Holyrood will decide which powers it retains and which powers Scotland wishes to share with the parliament of the UK.

    What’s the difference between NS demanding the SP vote for another indi-ref is respected and this?

    Well, one big important difference is the request for an indi-ref is a vote to request a vote.

    Whereas, the declaration of Sovereignty, is a done deal. The UK Govt must accept Scottish sovereignty completely or totally reject it.

    Whereas with the indi-ref vote, it’s a case of: well, we aren’t saying Scotland hasn’t got the right to vote for an indi-ref, but the UK has the final say WHEN.

    That’s why they had to have the Scottish GE campaign run as a rejection of indi-ref, it’s a tacit acceptance that the UK CANNOT defy the will of the Scottish people or it would mean the end of the Union.

    So, they have to present it as the people of Scotland changing rejecting a second indi-ref. Not the UK saying you cannot have one.

  464. yesindyref2

    @colin alexander
    Thing is Colin, that actions such as that can be done or attempted any time, but the easier route is still open, whatever May says. Now is not the time anyway, at this stage we could still stay in the single market, which would mostly remove the SNP’s mandate for Indy Ref 2. In fact the EU made it plain yesterday (if not before) that at the end of negotiations Brexit could just be cancelled. A bit of a shocker there.

    But more than that, it would remove any mandate for any other action, until the next GE, or the next SE.

    The easy route is still the S30 route, and that hasn’t been formally closed yet, whatever the media and unionist politicians might say. “Now is not the time” is not a NO, in fact it can be interpreted as a YES. Until it is formally rejected, it’s the way to go.

    Don’t listen to Mundell by the way, you’d be the only one on the whole planet who pays him any attention, apart from a handful of journos. He’s not even the monkey, let alone the organ-grinder. He just gets to hold the bananas.

  465. yesindyref2

    @@colin alexander
    The other thing is that when Indy Ref 2 is on the cards, there’s still the option the SNP cleverly put out in Decemeber, where special arrangements are made to keep Scotland in the single market.

    The reason it’s clever is that it would indeed need all you talk about, complete sovereignty for Scotland, and Scotland contracting out some services to the UK if the price was right. The transfer of powers to Scotland would have to be immense, enough to satisfy any devo-maxer. For a time.

  466. yesindyref2

    @Liz g
    The thing is back in 2012 when the Indy Ref started, the SSAS and maybe polls, showed support for Indy at say 28%, More powers at about 32% and status quo at 32%, with about 8% wanting to abolish Holyrood completely.

    Over time that became 45% for Indy, but the YES contains what became known as devo-maxers, such as probably Ian McW, and so did the NO.

    I’d guess maybe as many as 35% of us now are hardened YESsers, but that leaves 12% YES, and maybe 13% NO who might still consider devo-max – or a federal