The backpedal
You’re probably going to see this misreported in the press quite a lot tomorrow. We thought we should get the whole thing up for the record, to avoid confusion.
We were as stunned as everyone else for a moment. On the Question Time special earlier tonight, Ed Miliband appeared to state that he’d rather not form a government (ie he’d let the Tories in) than do so with the support of the SNP. It sounded like he’d gone dramatically further than he’d ever gone before.
And then he realised what he’d done, and panicked.
These were the actual words:
“Let me just say this to you, Simon: if it meant that we weren’t going to be in government, not having a coalition, not doing a deal, then so be it.”
Scottish Twitter collectively gasped and then went bananas, having perhaps stopped listening after the word “government” and finished the sentence for itself.
But when asked to clarify, Miliband frantically tried to scramble out of the big hole he realised he’d just inadvertently dug under himself by putting the words of the sentence in a slightly ambiguous order. In response to both the audience and David Dimbleby, he repeated urgently that what he was rejecting were “deals” or “coalitions”.
“What is a ‘deal’?”, Dimbleby pressed.
“Confidence and supply, they’ve said, which is where you, you sort of, uh, have an arrangement. I’m not doing that. I’m not doing that”, Miliband replied, carefully NOT ruling out a vote-by-vote scenario where the SNP would put him in power by voting for his Queen’s Speech, but then decide whether to back him on every individual bill.
“Sorry, so you’d rather lose office, so to speak, you’d rather not have a Labour government, than do that?”
“If the price of a Labour government was a coalition or a deal with the Scottish National Party, not gonna happen.”
Miliband had just helpfully defined “deal” for us – confidence and supply. So in fact all he was doing was ruling out the things he’d already explicitly ruled out days ago. There was nothing new at all. We suspect the morning papers might try to give you another impression, but then they’ve got to fill the column inches with something.
Too late, he’s given the SNP their line for the rest of the campaign.
Miliband is so desperate to become pm he would do a deal with Thatcher’s corpse
I disagree, Rev Stu. If he does not have a “deal” then he cannot be certain of getting a queen’s speech through. A deal is not necessarily formal and this is beyond the usual “plausible deniability” we are so accustomed to. I don’t think he can row back from this.
Both Labour and the SNP have ruled out deals several times. I don’t think Ed changed his position but his wording will undoubtedly be used by the Daily Wail to shriek indignantly when the SNP support his Queen’s speech.
At least he tried 🙂
“If he does not have a “deal” then he cannot be certain of getting a queen’s speech through”
“Certainty” is neither here nor there. He’ll either get it through or he won’t.
Has he weighed up the odds of recovering Scottish support versus winning the crucial swing vote in English marginals – and decided Scotland’s a lost cause anyway?
Please watch the 30secs after this “I want to explain why I will not deal with Nicla Sturgeon, it’s because they won’t rule out another independence referendum for the next 5 years” or something similar. He tried to do it as part of this answer but had to do it later! He did backtrack once he realised what he’d said!
No matter what, Labour finished in Scotland!
I don’t agree with that either, Walter Scott.
It may be that he honestly believes this will scare Scots into voting labour, as Mr Murphy seems to think will be effective. He may even listen to Mr Murphy, for all I know. He may even be right, though I think it vanishingly unlikely.
But I am as sure as I can be that he will give Scotland nothing in return for support, if he gets it: for if he does he will be pilloried by the MSM.
I think we must accept that he means what he says. And since I do not think he wants another election (for many reasons including money) I think this means he will reach an accommodation with the tories, if necessary (and if they will let him)
Useful …. but not the way I heard it! I have always assumed a major bluff. Not now. Shocking.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
30 April, 2015 at 9:57 pm
“If he does not have a “deal” then he cannot be certain of getting a queen’s speech through”
“Certainty” is neither here nor there. He’ll either get it through or he won’t.
He won’t make it if he is not certain
If it’s a hung parliament someone’s got to do a deal with someone They cant all just sit twiddling their thumbs.
5 year parliament , not so easy to call a snap election.
I think it needs 66% of the MP’s to tell Queenie it’s a no deal try again.
There are many MP’s within labour who will not allow the ‘two eds are better than one’ to dawdle. Deals will have to be done.
Not ruling out a ‘grand coalition’ having seen what they have said in the last few days.
Sturgeon did a good job with the audience and never told a lie even those who are not SNP voter material will have to credit her that..
Broken sleazy Labour on the slide. Nailed dead to rights for all Scotland to hear.
Same as we have heard out the mouths of fat, corrupt Labour politicians in Scotland – they’d rather see a Tory government reinstalled than a Labour one accept support from the SNP.
That the SNP democratically swept into a huge majority of seats represents the will of the people, means nothing to Miliband and Labour.
If that situation arises he will tell the Scottish electorate, go fuck yourselves.
So there we have it.
All my long-standing English friends who never believed me can see it for themselves – England does not give a toss for Scotland. It can go to the dogs.
Spot on analysis.
Wasn’t sure of the implications on the SNP vote when I heard it first time. Seemed a pretty hard ball attempt to beat historic SLAB voters back into line. Worried Murphy actually had some influence.
But as you were, big gaffe recovered and as Faiasl Islam said on CH4 just shows Labour have given up on Scotland.
And breaking… Boulton already making your predicted misreporting on CH4 now.
To justify my earlier statement look at link to bbc.co.uk from 45m 22sec
Those were my thoughts exactly.
I can’t decide if Miliband was being very clever or very stupid.
Probably the latter!
“He won’t make it if he is not certain”
Of course he will. In essence he has no choice.
Ed has basically written off the campaign in Scotland so he can focus on Middle England swing seats. Strangely though, the only logic of this is being able to rely on SNP votes to put him in power.
The unionists have been playing merry hell with the English language throughout this campaign when commenting on the SNP position and speeches.
It is only to be expected that the Scottish electorate will do so with Millibands statement tonight.
A banner headline of “Miliband prefers Cameron as PM than accepting SNP support” may not be exactly true, but it’s close enough to sell newspapers.
I agree with Stu’s assessment.
But the most important thing about this is that Miliband was asked about what is the over-riding, defining issue of the election and he still couldn’t articulate an answer without almost screwing it up.
I am weeping at the thought of the SNP having to make him PM in order to keep the Tories out. Is there really no other way?
I think that might be his trump card, his Westminster leaders visit Scotland moment. I must say it does concern me a bit, but if that one falls short I can’t see him having anything left in the tank.
He has boxed himself into a cormer now. Despite his back track the “nation” heard him say no deal, the edits will reflect this. He just destroyed New Labour, Old Labour, Real Labour, any old Labour everywhere by telling the people effectively he would let the Tories win. He is toast if he does and toast if he does not. Our Independence Day just got closer.
I’m sorry but if we have 40+ seats, the tories can’t form a majority & Labour are capable of making a deal with us but don’t then that to me is a clear change & should trigger a referendum based in a 2016 manifesto & mandated by a victory in 2016.
I’d suggest a referndum in 2019.
Whatever the nuances of what he said, what was said loud and clear, is that as long as Scotland has voted Labour, everything has been fine but now that we are practicing our democratic right to vote SNP, we no longer are ‘allowed’ to enjoy the gift of Westminster style democracy.
Well it’s goodnight from him and goodbye to the union..
Ed walked onto the stage at QT with his shoes on the wrong feet…then proceeded to put a foot into his mouth.
Beats a bacon sandwich moment.
Fiasal Islam (Had more abuse from SNP than UKIP man) again on Labour giving up on Scotland but Miliband now only talking to “English faced voters”
Pick the bones out of that one. WTF.
As far as the Scottish electorate are concerned, Ed Milliband has just aligned himself once again with the Tory Government against their democratic will.
Never mind the ins n outs of what was or wasn’t said, Labour have stated to your average Joe Scot….we would rather a Tory government than work with the SNP.
Okay, your right; he hesitated! That said, he’s went much further than before in ‘rejecting’ any arrangement with the SNP and this has to be seen in the context of further Labour Party uterences tonight, that of Jim Murphy on BBC Scotland News. All said, I appreciate they have to play a game with South England voters but…. We are potentially talking about the end of Labour and, in turn, the end of the UK. Interesting times. A grand coalition doesn’t heart bindi g about but may….
Mr Milliband was once again ruling out something that was not on offer, that is a ‘confidence and supply’ deal with the SNP.
Ms Sturgeon has made clear time and again: no coalition and no ‘confidence and supply’ is on offer to Labour. It is strictly on an issue by issue basis that is being offered by the SNP to Labour.
Of course, Mr Milliband is posturing trying to get English votes and as Ms Sturgeon has pointed out he was backed into that particular corner by the Tories.
Either way, Labour are finished in Scotland.
Miliband the movie – featuring the eye popping stumble !
Outing of an Idiot; sorry but that’s what amounted to.
Straight out of Aardman Animations. What a clown.
When you are in a hole most folk will stop digging.
If Miliband wants to be PM he will have to cut a deal with whoever has enough seats.
If he doesn’t do that he’s fucked.
What are the odds of a Labour leadership election about 10 minutes after the queens speech ?????
The day after the election:
Nicola “Is that Ed Balls?”
Ed “Yes?”
Nicola “Have I got a deal for you! Wanna be PM?”
Ed “You bet!”
Milliband exit stage right.
I hope the papers do give another impression. Then when he begs the SNP to back his Queen’s speech next week the whole world will hold him in contempt for his deviousness.
The substance of what he said was nothing new.
What was new was that he said explicitly that he would rather a Tory Government than a formal deal with the SNP.
That has killed Labour in Scotland for decades and will lose them seats in England.
Tory and Lib Dem coalition it is.
christ, he displayed a level of maturity i hope i never to see in politics again.
this tv tantrum has done him no favours @ all.
It has been apparent for a while now. Not Prime Ministerial material. Doesn’t have a clue what to do or say. I can understand the facade of not committing to a deal in order to garner as many votes as he can but tripping up like this on the verge of actually becoming the PM? Maybe earlier speculation was right. He really does not want to win after all. Such a fool.
To me it sounded like no deal – ie political suicide.
Grand coalition.
RIP Labour party everywhere.
not sure Rev
Jim Murphy tweets
Labour has called SNP bluff. The SNP must now be clear: are they willing to prevent or bring down a Labour government & let the Tories in?
Simply ,the lies of 1979 are now put to bed.
Jaw still on the floor at that statement!!
59 seem more possible now?
Rerun Miliband’s diatribe and marvel at how close he sounds to Blair in speech pattern and delivery.
The bugger has been studying Blair’s technique to ape it.
The difference is, Miliband sounds as if he’s talking under water!
Interestingly The Daily Record has a large spread about tonight’s debate, but don’t even mention this point (or haven’t as of yet)
I looked on the Herald site and they do not seem to mention it either.
Me thinks they are waiting to see how Labour in Scotland want to spin this Gaffe.
Stu is right. Case by case support has not been rejected by Miliband.
It is very simple.
If Lab + SNP > the rest then the Torys + the rest will not be able to form a government.
If Miliband then puts forward a Queen’s speech and it passes with SNP support, solicited or otherwise, then he would be summoned to form a government.
Doing anything else would be political suicide for him personally as well as being an incredible insult to the democratic will of the Scots.
Facebook have blocked sharing this post. Something about ‘malicious’ link. That’s odd.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
30 April, 2015 at 10:05 pm
“He won’t make it if he is not certain”
Of course he will. In essence he has no choice.
You may be right. I don’t understand why, though.
DC remains PM after the election and gets first shot at forming a govt. Mr Murphy has repeatedly said that he will “cling on to power” and has never explained how that could be done. Mr Murphy has also said “biggest party forms the govt”, which is a lie, as you have repeatedly emphasised. Question then is why does he keep on with it. Seems to me that it gives a veneer of justification for a grand coalition, if that is what labour decides to do
Leaving that aside, if DC cannot command the confidence of the house, labour gets a shot at forming a government. If no deal then EM can’t do it any more than DC can: but we are told the queen will not make the speech unless it will be passed.
Constitutionally someone else can do it in her absence, I gather. But it is pretty much unprecedented. Can’t see anyone being happy with that, nor with the possibility of it being voted down. So it is not beyond the bounds of possibility they will go for a second election, or will form a grand coalition as the only sensible way of resolving the crisis.
Don’t see how he has no choice, but I am probably missing something
This eejit as PM? Disaster waiting to happen. Nicola would need to be his deputy to save embarrassment.
Perhaps Milliband means it when he says he won’t do a deal. Perhaps the Labour Party will dump him when he refuses and the new leader will do a deal.
No, seriously, who’s hidden Murphy’s medication.
Looks like the press are going with the “Miliband prefers the Tories to a deal with the SNP” line.
But just how much of that will feature in the early editions.
I am not sure if Miliband is either trying to blackmail voters in Scotland into voting Labour, or if he is genuinely trying to destroy SLAB. He said he would rather not be PM than do a deal with the SNP.
Labour’s stance reminds me of a scene from Blazing Saddles.
bookie from hell
Looks like Jim is deciding that he needs to get in quick and squash any notion of stepping aside for the Tories (although I doubt a Tweet will stop the Tory press). Jim is effectively saying that Labour want to have a minority Government. That is absolutely fine. The Queens speech is one vote. Every other piece of legislation, finance bill etc has to be voted on, subject to committee and amendments. That is where the SNP votes will matter. Not the Queen’s speech.
No doubt about it this was a huge gaffe by Miliband. He will be hounded over the next 7 days to explain himself.
So if there is no deal and the SNP support Labour to allow them to form a government
The SNP can hold Labour to ransom to get Labour Bills passed
The price? Forcing Labour to live up to The Vow they put their name to.
What Miliband has said to England tonight is simple:
I don’t want to risk the Union…by telling the Scots who we have been telling for centuries are equal partners, that in fact they are not equal partners unless they do what we in England agree with.
To Scots:
Well we tried all the usual scare-mongering and smears and gave you a chance to vote Labour, but you haven’t listened… so Get to the back of the bus!
McTernan’s strategy is surely this: defy the SNP not to support your proposals for a Queen’s speech and when the SNP declines on the basis they claim them to be Tory in a pink wrapper tell the electorate the SNP put the Tories back in power – again!
Interesting what SNP leadership make of Miliband’s words tonight…
Depute Leader of the SNP Stewart Hosie said:
“If Ed Miliband is saying that he would rather let the Tories back into government than work with the SNP to keep them out, people in Scotland and indeed elsewhere in the UK would never forgive the Labour Party.
“This makes it even more important that Scotland unites to elect a big team of SNP MPs, so that we are in a decisive position at Westminster and Scotland can never again be ignored.
“Labour already had huge problems in Scotland – Ed Miliband has just made them a whole lot worse.”
Am I missing the point here?
In a fit of improvised political machismo Milliband has explicitly ruled out the possibility of being prime minister if he would need SNP support to do so.
Good.
Now we know where we stand.
And it sure as f*** is not better together.
Roll on next Thursday.
As in 2010 when Labour refused to form a progressive alliance with Lib Dems and SNP, vote Labour and get Tory.
O/T I do wish Nicola Sturgeon would refer to Labour in Scotland rather than Scottish Labour as there is no such entity registered with the Electoral Commission.
Not sure what to make of this. I’ve personally thought that a grand coalition has been in the offing for some time, particularly if the Blairite/ neoliberals have anything to do with it, and it is those voices which are being heard – Blair himself, Murphy, Brown, Balls, Miliband and now Blunkett.
However, that would signal the end of the Labour party, and there are still a fair number of ‘socialist’ MP’s in England along with the unions, who will put pressure on Miliband to try and garnish some sort of support to drag him across the finishing line.
The big question is whether he wants the job badly enough. As many here have noted before, sometimes Labour appear to prefer to be in opposition. Mud slinging is their number one policy.
I suspect that given Ed Miliband’s comments tonight, can we expect a Grand Coalition simply to spite Scottish voters?
It was quite scary pointing at me on the telly, directing his statement to me as Scot and telling me if I want a labour government I must vote labour.
Know what! I think he was pissed off with the Murphy and was giving all the defecting labour switherers a rhetorical ‘kick up the backside’!
Move that referendum pot from the back burner nearer the front things are hotting up. Interesting position on the chess board though.
8th May…….
Ed Ed…Wake up! The votes are in, your second biggest party Ed ‘deal or no deal’ Err! red knight to …. hurry up Ed the Queens waiting…No not Betty, the Scottish one!
I agree, Grouse Beater: if they do make a queen’s speech that is the tactic. And it won’t just be the queen’s speech if the SNP fall for that: it will be every piece of horrific legislation they put forward through the whole parliament (barring those the tories will support, of course – probably most of them, unless the tories follow labour’s lead at Holyrood)
But I can’t see much reason for them not to form a grand coalition: they probably think it looks statesmanlike, and they are much the same in any case
There is absolutely no danger .no danger …that Miliband is going to allow himself to go down in history …by handing over power to the Tories when he could have been PM.
The Labour Parrty, apart from being wiped out in the North of Britain and never being forgiven, would also be ridiculed into eternity, and have the word ‘bottler’ thrown at them at every possible opportunity by gleeful Tories, as well as laughed at by the SNP in both parliaments!
Miliband next Friday will be the most important person in the country if there is no majority. Now whether he likes it or not, he will be asked one question …a question we all know …and history rides on it.
So think carefully, Ed …and choose well…
Because to say ‘No’ will leave your name as one of ridicule, while choosing ‘yes’ to work with the SNP, gives you at least 5 years to prove those who doubt that decision wrong…
He will do a deal because the markets will demand one(it’s why there was pressure on the last coalition administration to form within 2 weeks of the GE- otherwise sterling will go into free fall. The markets don’t like uncertainty -a side effect of neoliberalism- the pursuit of the disenchantment of politics by economics).
What’s more interesting is his synecdoche -‘I wont do a deal with the SNP’. SNP is used in place of the democratic mandate delivered by the Scottish voters.That really does reiterate the not so subliminal message of the unionist agenda-argumentum ad baculum- except it’s not working- Scotland has its own message and it will be mediated through communicative action by an engaged, enlightened electorate and will be delivered at the ballot box next week.
Labour needs a new leader
I am not sure this tactic won’t work to some extent: many scots really will think that this means a tory government, perhaps, and may vote labour for that reason. Is this why Mr Murphy seems to confident in his “late swing”? I sincerely hope that thrawn wins over fear, on this occasion
Well Rev, he may have just have left himself enough wriggle room, but I think the damage is done.
I think Milliband thought this programme was only going out in England … then he realised it was the WHOLE of the U.K. hence his pathetic plea to Scots to vote Labour.
The trouble Milliband has now is he went into this programme tonight convincing himself, in my view, that he was only going to be speaking to people in England hence this amazing double foot in mouth moment.
Someone in Labour H.Q., London branch, must have thought that by saying what he did would win Milliband more voters in England. Unfortunately for them it has just blown up big time in their face.
I am sure there are a lot of Labour voters in England who were quite happy for their party to be bolstered by the block of S.N.P. M.P.’s. With this garbage being spouted by Milliband tonight I think they have been given a huge wake up call that their prospective party leader is not so Prime Ministerial as he has tried to make out.
I’m no psephologist but I think Milliband and his “I’d rather see Cameron back in number 10 rather do a deal with the S.N.P.” speil has done nothing but damage his chances of winning anything on May 7th.
There is one wee silver lining to this feet in mouth moment tonight, I think. As we all know Labour keep throwing up the never ending LIE about the S.N.P. bringing down Callaghan’s government in 1979. Well thanks to Milliband tonight we now have something even bigger to throw straight back at Labour. The S.N.P. did NOT bring down Callaghan in 1979 but Milliband DID put Cameron BACK into number 10 in 2015!
Good point, Lesley-Anne. It might well result in loss of support in rUK enough to render the whole question redundant. Cameron might get an overall majority after this. Jayzus
Why oh Why did Scotland vote No? What a bunch of ignorant, arrogant Westminster idiots.
link to twitter.com
Youre right about them having to fill columns up with same ol same ol, shock.
Miliband tried too hard to be a poker player & blew it.
Despite the technicalities of what he actually said, the impression he wanted England to get was that in no circumstances, would Labour form a government with the support of the SNP.
While the actual composition of a government may well include Labour with the loose support from the SNP on a case by case basis, Miliband attempted to satisfy his English audience’s illogical suspicion of the SNP while attempting to coerce his Scottish audience to back Labour.
But it is the spirit of what he said rather than the actual words he used that will resonate more in Scotland than in England.
He has effectively said that unless voters in Scotland back Labour, there is no place in Westminster for them. He is therefore blackmailing Scots.
But he has misjudged the mood in Scotland because his threat is likely to cause further damage to his own party rather than save it from oblivion.
Ironically, he might still make Prime Minister despite the ramifications of his ill considered statements tonight. But he has surely made the probability of a second referendum all the more probable during the life of the next UK parliament.
Milliband should say Vote for the Tories. He doesn’t want to win.
Lead item on Radio 2 news. Hopefully I am not alone in thinking my voice as a Scot will be totally ignored next Thursday.
As someone said above, why oh why was it a No vote.
The Mirror website is openly reporting Milliband’s f*** you to the SNP at 10.54.
link to mirror.co.uk
Here’s one, if ‘you’re up for it’ –
If you could have your pick of any constituency, to be there in person next Fri morning to watch them all traipse onstage for the results, which would you pick?
(For me, it’s a close call between Donohoe, Murphy, or either of the Alexanders.)
At this point its too late. The damage is done. Murphy will crow about this endlessly and in fact *checks twitter* has already started. Scottish labour with is utter inability to pick up on anything more nuanced than “SNP BAD” will keep digging that hole much deeper. The silly party don’t realise that their leaders gaffe has just killed them.
O/T Going over QT tonight, Nick Clegg raised the spectre of Alex Salmond.
I presume by doing this he has accepted Alex will defeat Christine Jardine.
Twit
Great front page in The National tomorrow. Will our impartial BBC quote this in their newspaper round up? Probably not so make sure it is seen on the newstands.
link to twitter.com
Miliband’s not short of enemies, Labour will ditch him, et tu Brute’ 🙂
I think blackmail is his game. There’s no way Miliband would throw away chance of being PM. He is just going to try and ignore the SNP and dare them to vote against Lab. Pretty dangerous game if you ask me. SNP are much more shrewd operators.
Long game – I am not bothered with Westminster. A minority Labour govt will rely on Tory votes on a vote by vote basis (kind of the current arrangement – in reverse – anyway) and the SNP will be sidelined. This might be the future.
That Scotland is coming together politically is the real issue. A landslide tory govt (which I would not rule out), or a tory lib/dem coalition will only exacerbate the direction of a politically mature Scotland.
We might return 50 plus MPs and still get a ‘non Labour’ government – wouldn’t that be a lesson!
Odds on a Labour/Tory coalition have tumbled from 100/1 to 20/1 although I think you can still get 25/1 in a very few places.
Get on quick
If the SNP do really well and hold the balance of power,
1/ one or more of the London parties will have to co operate with them
OR
2/ All the London parties will have to co operate to freeze out Scotlands democratically elected representatives.
OR
3/They can tell the queen a government can’t be formed and she will call a new election or maybe just chop their heads off for being so nasty to her people from Scotland.
@JimW says: 30 April, 2015 at 10:25 pm:
“Perhaps Milliband means it when he says he won’t do a deal. Perhaps the Labour Party will dump him when he refuses and the new leader will do a deal.”
They may dump him easily enough but, if memory serves, it is not so easy to choose a new Labour Leader. After all they have co-op sponsored members and trade Union card votes.
Miliband is running for Prime Minister by telling everyone he doesn’t really want to be Prime Minister.
Surely he’s now seen by everyone as a lame duck.
Still feel ‘Better Together’ Labour in Scotland ??
Somebody should take that shovel out of his hands before he reaches Australia. 😀
Oh Jeez, car crash.
I wonder if Ed is aware of just how much of his rear end he’s exposed? 😀 LOL
OK, here’s my take, which may be off the mark. Ed over-egged the pudding, but falls back on the Queen’s speech bluff and goad the SNP into voting it down. But they don’t have to – irrespective of what it proposes as it’s all vague waffle anyway. What matters are the specific Bills and the Budget.
The Westminster Parties don’t seem to understand their own legislation. The Fixed Term Parliament Act gives the SNP a virtual free hand to vote down any particular Bill they want, and then vote for Labour in any confidence motion. Thus prolonging the agony of minority government. Losing one vote on one Bill does not force anything. In fact to bring forward an election requires 66% majority if the Government passes a no-confidence motion.
It also creates the potential of havig one PM for the UK (when the SNP vote) and another (David Cameron) on other votes as Lab (plus LD? plus SDLP?) may not have a majority. (By the way, isn’t the SDLP a “separatist” Party? Don’t they want a United Ireland?)
I think this is a major gaff which will not become clear until AFTER the election. We do live in interesting times.
Grouse Beater@10.37pm.
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
But there is a good chance it would back fire on the unionists, because Scotland has woken up.
BBC news website simply passing it of as the standard “no deals with the SNP” ploy.
Maybe they should look at the footage again!
Do you reckon he’s just put a coffin nail in the union with his attempt to come over like a cross between a petulant school boy and Clint Eastwood?
uuuuuuuu (My new kitten just typed that) 😀
@Ian B
Oooohhh what a choice to have to make.
Murphy
Davidson
Curran
Alexander
in that order.
and link to bbc page here
link to bbc.co.uk
Has Mliband just conceded the election to David Cameron
Ed Milliband is now away to learn the words to his *ahem* former party’s new theme song!
link to youtube.com
Was out canvassing – how did N S get on?
Ed Miliband’s threat to Scotland, “If you don’t vote Labour we will let the Tories back in”
test
Well I think we can conclude that, whatever else may be true, he’s no “statesman”.
Nicola was right. The SNP has to provide the guts and backbone to the Labour party and keep them honest.
I can see clearly now……….. Independence!
Think the Tories will win with a majority next week after this performance. The guy is unelectable. He would have trouble even saying that word as he can’t even speak properly.
Ed Miliband, “fuck you Scotland”
So if none of the london controlled political parties will allow the SNP scottish MP’s to have a fair say in a Westminster government if they are the democratic elected majority from Scotland.
Does this not mean they are treating Scotland as a seperate country. Therefore does Scotland not have a right to consider UDI, because what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Yea your right he doesn’t mention vote by vote.
Dear Scotchland,
Vote for us or we will blame you, for letting the tories back in, by stupidly voting for the demons of democracy, the SNP! (BOOOO!!!!!).
If you make the wrong choice, dont worry your pretty little heads about it. We will forgive you. We, here at Labour, understand, that you are limited in thinking for yourselves.
If you could please slip your postal vote in to the SAE provided, when it arrives, so we here at Labour, can take away this burden for you. That’s if you want us to of course . . . wink wink. (Ha ha just joking.)
We are happy to wait 5 years for you to change your mind, as the msm tries to make Scotland, even more of a blood(and soil[see what we did there lulz!]) sucking “furriner” figure of hate (To be fair to them, they can’t be seen to be racist, hating jews etc anymore).
To be honest you did ask for it, for wanting all of the limited powers we gave you, after we kindly, promised you more.
Also Please, Please, Please, DO NOT get above your yourselves and think you are equal in the Union, we just need your 50 something MPs, to make up the short fall to make us look like we should be in charge of “our” UK wide government.
See you next year, for the Hollyrood elections, where we are sure you will vote in the proper way, for the lovely branch office of THE only proper working persons representation political party.
Until then, bye for now baby eaters!
Forever (Up) Yours,
The Labour Party.
(Too much satire or not enough?. Forgive spacing etc as I’m typing this out on a console machine doo dah.)
Miliband surrendered Scotland to win middle England – simples!
To lighten the mood, have a look at Wacky Races cartoon and insert characters as appropriate.
Grandparents can watch while babysitting.
I like Dick Dastardly and Muttley as Cameron and Osborne.
Penepole Pitstop is Nic. Sturgeonator.
The Slag Brothers,Mmm Satchi.
Get the picture.
Perhaps Ed should take a leaf out of Putin’s book and ride horse bare-back and topless in the New Forest?
Don’t think it would work though. It would need to be Shetland pony and it would still toss him when he tried to ride it into a tree.
He would still come over as more Aardman than Hardman.
@Cadogan Enright
Her stint is being repeated now on radio 5 now. Might be too late by the time this post appears. 🙁
So if the SNP vote in favour of a minority Labour party’s Queen’s Speech, and their votes get it passed, Ed Miliband is going to turn to Angus Robertson and tell him where to go, then hand the keys to No 10 to David Cameron?
If he did that, I’m sure his party members and supporters throughout the UK would revile him forever in a manner that would make Ramsay MacDonald seem quite popular by comparison. Wouldn’t put it past some of his own Cabinet to stab him in the back and do the sensible thing.
He can back pedal all he likes, but there is only one way the media are going to report this. May play well with certain Tory and UKIP leaning factions south of the border, but this could go down in history as the day Scottish Labour died. Engage brain before opening mouth, Ed.
Could someone with a better grasp on constitutional matters than myself (not hard) please give an opinion on something that’s bothering me.
As I understand it Miliband would have to have a Queens Speech passed through parliament to become PM. (With SNP backing)
What would happen if Miliband put in his speech something like a complete ban on any further Scottish Independence referendums for say ten or fifteen years say. Surely the SNP could never vote for that thereby letting Labour blame the SNP for not letting them form a government and allowing the Tories in? = SNP Bad!
Kirsty Wark on Newsnight earlier this evening said The Sun backed Yes in the referendum right up to the last few weeks when it drew back.Utter nonsense,but that’s what we expect from Labour aparachiks.
It’s going to be a Tory/Labour coalition. They have been so close together lately that it’s hard to tell them apart. They just can’t say it out loud yet.
Sorry darlings – not up to speed. what is ‘Scottish Labour”?
The McTernan game play is this –
Labour have repeated the accusation that it was the SNP that brought down the Callaghan Government (not true but it something that’s repeated by Labour)
So the idea is this that if Labour get defeated by the Tory’s then Labour will blame the SNP, after all as Labour keep repeating for each SNP win means less Labour MP’s and allowing Cameron to win
If its a hung parliament which Labour have a chance of forming a minority government, then Labour will try and dictate to the SNP that they cant vote against Labour on any subject as it will allow the Tory’s back in
So McTernan has set up a scenario that the in ANY event, the SNP will get the blame
That boys and girls is how twisted McTernan is. The hatred, as commented elsewhere, by Labour of the SNP is palpable. They ignore the fact that they have ignored the voters through the obsession
That is my take.
Continuing what Fiona at 10:24 said.
I asked in my blog last week “How many Queen’s speeches can be voted down in a row?”
As far as I can tell – as many as you like!
So SNP can vote down a Labour and then a Tory Queen’s speech, forcing the Queen to ask SNP to form the government 🙂
Of course, their Queen’s speech would also get voted down. I imagine all parties know they can all vote down as many Queen’s speeches as they like, so deals will be willingly done by everyone – they have no option.
I don’t see any wise heads in labour, north or south of the border to provide guidance to milliband or provide a less damaging perspective to the Scottish people.
Tonight milliband wrote off Scotland, I am sure as a country we will remind him of this in seven days time.
If the SNP win all 59 seats in Scotland (or come close to it) and the parties representing all, or at least the overwhelming majority of, the seats in England (but with little or no representation in Scotland) then form a “grand coalition” or enter into some similar arrangement with the express purpose of shutting the SNP MPs, elected to represent the people of Scotland’s interests, out of government will that not mean they have, de facto, ended the union of parliaments?
(incidentally I saw this posted n Facebook and tried to follow the link from there. Facebook blocked it as “malicious”)
WTF does he think he’s doing? He’s basically just said he’d rather have the Tories in government than work with a democratically elected left of centre party. End game Mofo!
How many English swithering voters will turn to Cameron now? That donkey faced fool has shot himself in the foot big style.
“The Fixed Term Parliament Act gives the SNP a virtual free hand to vote down any particular Bill they want, and then vote for Labour in any confidence motion. Thus prolonging the agony of minority government. Losing one vote on one Bill does not force anything. In fact to bring forward an election requires 66% majority if the Government passes a no-confidence motion.”
This is what Nicola has been saying on interviews for a while now. The Queen’s Speech is immaterial. It’s what happens after that. That’s where the horse trading will have to come in. And the SNP will stick to its promise of voting for what’s best for Scotland. So if they think a measure is bad they will not vote for it. Talk about keeping Ed on his toes! Sounds like fun.
@X-sticks –
Davidson!
Nice one. I’d forgotten all about him. Yeah, that would be sweet, just to be within sniffing distance of him as the Returning Officer utters the numbers which finally remove him from public life.
Major problem I’m facing is how to stay sober long enough for the real action. From now until next Thursday I may just put aside my bevvy money, and use it to buy a huge pot of Evo-Stick. Either way, I’ll be glued to the radio and watching this place. (The pictures are better on radio, and we get all the real juicy bits of footage right here and/or via Twitter anyway…canny wait.)
Hoots the noo!
Ed Miliband is not worthy of Scotland’s support. Nicola is like Joan of Arc offering her support to a worthless and cowardly king who will betray her.
How can anyone believe any of those Establishment parties when every damned one of them thinks we Scots, Welsh and N.Irish are part of their, “Country”?
They have all claimed Scotland wants to break up their country and every one of then is born in England.
I demand the SNP end whatever union it is that makes my country part of England. Every one of them has spoken of the SNP wanting to break up their country.
I don’t want to be ruled by any government whose leaders couldn’t pass basic geography.
My take on it.
He didn’t actually rule out vote by vote.
Very subtle but did not rule it out.
Excerpt from today’s Independent.
………..
” The prospect of a post-election deal between Labour and the Scottish National Party makes one in four voters less likely to support Ed Miliband’s party, according to a new survey”.
……….
What you watched tonight was a blatant pitch at anti Scottish english marginal voters by trying to look strong against the Scots.
Wait till they find out the reality on 7th May.
Key words, ‘coalition’ and ‘deal’.
Coalition has been ruled out by SNP.
Confidence and supply (‘deal’) has only been a vague possibility for the SNP.
That seems to have been ruled out by Milliband, but we did not really want it anyway.
He absolutely DID NOT rule out a deal by deal, INFORMAL ‘arrangement’..(as opposed to ‘deal’ which implies FORMAL).
Absolutely NOTHING has changed regarding events Post Election.
Paula Rose asks:
30 April, 2015 at 11:46 pm
Sorry darlings – not up to speed. what is ‘Scottish Labour”?
It is something that’s a lot less real as a phantom pregnancy, but the symptoms have lasted a lot longer than nine months…
@Chic McGregor –
‘Perhaps Ed should take a leaf out of Putin’s book and ride horse bare-back and topless in the New Forest?
Don’t think it would work though. It would need to be Shetland pony and it would still toss him when he tried to ride it into a tree.
He would still come over as more Aardman than Hardman.’
🙂
Seeing as it’s exam time, here’s a wee exercise:
Replace any noun in the comment above with ‘Jackie Baillie’, and assess how the overall tone and meaning is changed. (5 points)
PS What’s happened to the bold Jackie anyway? Haven’t seen her for yonks.
Since it is now becoming clear that our chosen representatives are unfit to be part of their system , it means we have no representation and we all know what that means to taxation.
Perhaps this should be pointed out to the mother of parliaments , in case they’ve forgotten.
I listened to it again. He is quite clear:
“If the price of a Labour Government is a coalition or a deal with the Scottish National Party, it’s not going to happen.”
So no Labour government if there is a hung parliament, which is the most likely scenario.
Does he not understand what democracy actually means?
@The Man in the Jar
What scenario would give the Tory party a majority of MP`s to form a stable government?
SNP getting all 59 seats triple locks out the Tory party.
The only party that could guarantee a Tory government are the Labour party.
Michael Portillo on This Week has just said that Labour could form a government even if they do not have the most seats.
He also said Milliband will form the next government.
Ed and his party have once again been played by Tories.
Vote SNP get Tory from Labour….WTF?
If Ed Milibands advisers are telling him Scotland will not accept an SNP voting against a Labour Govt…he is in big trouble. Scotland hates Labour as much if not more than the Tories and any vote to reduce Westminster arrogance will not be sneered at by anyone in Scotland after next Thursday and any attempt to keep SNP out the circle.
Maybe it should be remembered That Ed Miliband does’nt run the Labour party nor is he in charge of sweet FA
The Labour Party just as the Conservative Party is, are both run from behind
Policy, Economy, all business is directed from and by the mandarins in the back
Cameron and Miliband are only the front men of the band and as we all know you can get another one of those anywhere and they frequently do
Chukka Omunna is standing waiting for Eds job as is Boris for Dave’s
Actually the only one who runs their party is Nicola Sturgeon and maybe, just maybe they might have seen this wee pantomime coming and are ready with the next cunning plan
Bwahahahaha
@Clootie
That’s my take on it Clootie. He basically told Scotland that rather than form a government with the aid of progressive left of centre parties, he’d rather see the Conservatives in power and no amount of caveats will change those words.
So much for Scotland playing an integral part within the union.
His problem? He really, really wants that job and will require those parties support to have it. He’s caught between a Scot and a hard place. 😉
If you are a Scottish conservative in a “no hope” seat then Ed, by saying he will not work with the SNP, has just sent this message to them? “Vote SNP to keep labour out.” I don’t think this is what “Scottish labour” meant by tactical voting? He just snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
Yes, Stuart, we know. But Miliband reducing Scotland to the same position as a red “We hate Wogs” mug in pandering to the lowest English common denominator tells Scotland exactly where in stands in Labour’s estimation.
@The Man in the Jar
The precedent is already set Westminster can do nothing about whether we do or don’t have Referendums, it’s not in their gift to deny or permit only to agree or disagree
Which is not to admit authority
That’s my basic understanding of it but if Robert Peffers is about he’s your man with more knowledge than me on constitutional stuff
I think he will be under severe pressure to make clear exactly what he means.
If he rules out a ‘vote-by-vote’ scenario or not.
Right now, the appearance is that he is trying to blackmail Scots into voting Labour !!
Labour have already said that they will continue with the tory austerity programme, so there will be no difference whether it is Cameron or Milliband in number 10. Unless the SNP are in a position to steer labour to the left away from austerity and trident renewal. Therefore to vote labour here in Scotland, without SNP influence will just get you more of the same. You would have to be stupid, mad or both to vote for more austerity!
All the SNP has to do is sit tight and wait for Mr Ed and co to realise they have no real bargaining power. The general election they might instigate could be justifiably turned into a independence referendum in itself by the SNP. And then we win.
I am curious about one thing. Let us suppose, just for a moment, that Ed Milliband means everything he says here. Difficult I know.
Imagine then that David Cameron is awake the day after the election and finds he has no majority. He cannot find enough votes for his Queen’s speech. He resigns as PM.
Milliband also lacks a majority on his own but could perhaps make one with the SNP. So, he decides to play chicken. Apart from his wife and very immediate party top team he speaks to no-one, calls no-one. Including anybody in SNP HQ or otherwise. He goes to the Palace and is asked by HM quite simply if he can form a government. He answers “Yes.” Again, having consulted no-one from any other party. Over the next few weeks he continues to shut himself away and refuses pick up the phone to the SNP or answer it from them. The day comes for voting on the Queen speech.
He can at this point legitimately say he has offered no deal of any kind, however it is defined. No concessions, no considerations, no cares. Vote for it or don’t. You’re choice. And nothing he says above is technically now any less true. So runs the Labour rhetoric for now anyway.
What is the correct SNP response on that day? Do they vote it down? True, on paper they have been offered nothing and need provide nothing and why not let Labour then deal with the constitutional crisis of its own making? But Labour then has some advantage of being able to point the finger and scream of SNP duplicity, maliciousness and trickery all along (however ill founded such claims would be it would be listened to by some).
Or would they be better to vote for it on the grounds that, yes Milliband has not spoken to them, but by even bringing a Queens speech to a vote he must implicitly be hoping for a majority from somewhere each day thereafter from a party not his own. He is implicitly asking the SNP for support whether he says it or not. And there is nothing his own party can bring before parliament that the SNP can not vote down if they so choose. Although this option, by definition, presumably relies on the SNP voting with the Tories in opposition in times that may often be uncomfortable ground.
On balance I would say the second option would be infinitely preferable. But is there any other risk in them taking that course that I am not seeing?
Miliband, trying to appear strong and statesman-like to an English audience only ends up in him evidencing that Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems, Westminster and the British Establishment view Scotland and its SNP MPs as no more than ‘the other’, ‘the unclean’, ‘the enemy within’ and not deemed to be worthy of consideration or any respect anywhere near the UK government, never mind within *the* UK government itself [Gasp!].
Better together, eh. What an absolute fucking sham. What does it feel like now proudScotbuts?
A Conservative/Labour ‘unity’ government? For the country [sic] in its ‘time of need’? Wouldn’t be surprised. Expect the unexpected from the unionists in their time of fear and loathing.
In a way, I hope they do form a unity government. It would bring about the defenestration of Labour (as we presently know it) from Scotland for good and, best of all, bring Ref 2 much closer and with it the long-desired independence of Scotland.
No seriously – what is Scottish labour?
Well a “unity” government is also an “anti-democracy” government. Is that what we want people? Well is it?
oh ffs the nightmare grand coalition is back in my nightmare scenario, does Milliband really want to destroy the Labour Party more that be Prime Minister?
@IanB
“PS What’s happened to the bold Jackie anyway? Haven’t seen her for yonks.”
If JaBa didn’t appear for the attack on the Death Star then I guess she isn’t going to.
PS Thanks for the imagery – NOT.
Labour`s erse is oot the windae.
The rest of the defenestration process will occur on May 7th.
(Cheers to Dal Riata for inspiring that…)
more than be PM.. ahem
I have asked English Labour-leaning friends (separately) what they thought of the ‘Grand Coalition’ to keep out SNP. For them it was inconceivable. I’m not saying they’re right or wrong, but interesting that they seem to breathe in different air.
What’s the difference between the politicians in Westminster and a lorry full of sand?
You can’t shift sand with a pitchfork
(to paraphrase a considerably more nasty joke I recall as a youth)
For ages, Miliband and Cameron have been ducking any questions concerning a hung parliament.
In this last week of campaigning, the pressure is getting worse and an answer is becoming harder and harder to avoid.
Slimy Dave managed it one more time – Eddy fucked up and wasn’t clever enough to make the double-talk say what he meant. Instead, he appeared to give a strong commitment to dismiss the SNP support he would need to form a minority government.
What he really meant to say was he wouldn’t do a deal with the SNP, sticking to the recognised denial of a formal coalition or a supply and confidence arrangement. What he definitely didn’t want to infer was that all bets were off and he wouldn’t ever talk to the SNP.
Yet he managed it – despite an attempt to correct the gaff.
I would say he was hoping to pressure wayward Scottish Labour voters to get back on-side for one final push to hold some seats in Scotland (probably hoping to give Murphy his miraculous last minute change in the polls at the same time).
What an inept clown. Its bloody annoying to think we will go to all the bother of sending an impressive number of SNP MP’s to Westminster to prop up this apology for a government. I hope we really do run rings around them in the next 5 years and get ourselves set up with FFA.
Our Scottish labour since last September has been 9 months of pain and struggle to give birth to the future of Scotland.
A beautiful healthy infant, in full voice,to be born on May 7th and weighing in at about 2 million votes.
link to caltonjock.com
Come on folks …. its not rocket science …. he’s a politician … a liar , a cheat , a self serving, self efacing con man …. whats there to debate? He’ll do whatever it takes to get himself into the history books ….
The meaning of what Ed Miliband said.
It couldn’t be clearer. England is upper class. Scotland is lower class.
England is first class, while Scotland is …well, something other; but certainly inferior, and unworthy.
England is effortlessly superior; Scotland is tragically native and un-civilised. Pity really.
Fact is – they’re just not capable of self-governance.
We couldn’t posssibly . . . .
Each day compels a divorce with ever greater force.
Am I missing something here?
Surely all the SNP have to do is to block both parties Queen speeches until Labour see sense and negotiate.
If we return a large block of SNP MPs neither Red or Blue Tories will be able to form a stable Government unless they have SNP support.
Going to be fun over the next few weeks!
In contrast to Ed Miliband’s foot-in-mouth-ism, Nicola Sturgeon was in excellent form on BBC Scotland answering questions from the audience.
She answered openly, without evasion, avoidance and waffle – note Jim Murphy’s performance earlier in the evening on the same channel – and got respected responses from the audience.
The only sour note to the event was the angry, pointy unionist gibbering something about the referendum giving a No vote and causing disharmony among the population, and the SNP… blah, blah, blah. (What is it with these unionists, always angry, shouty, pointy and rude…?)
I’m biased, of course, but Sturgeon has been fantastic for the SNP since taking over the reins from Alex Salmond. No disrespect to Salmond, but she has won back a lot of the ‘I don’t like that Alex Salmond!’ electorate, especially the female contingent, and has appeal to all from young to old. She became leader at just the right time, for her party and – more importantly – the people of Scotland. And she can only get better – brilliant!
i’m voting #SNPbecause Labour hates Scots!
Maybe due to their party making the biggest mistake of its recent history and duly deservedy losing support since last election nobody paid any attention to wiley clegg tonight. But he has really missed a trick by ruling out working with snp, lib dems could have cushioned their fall and jumped back on the lefty minority bus to try and take back voters lost in scot to snp or greens and in England to labour greens and lots of spoiled ballots. I would have thought this was the only chance for clegg to appear on the exciting minority lefty side again and gain votes, but he has chosen instead to try to weedle the picture down to 3 with him inthe middle. The man is as disillusioned as murph to expect people to fall for it. Like jimmurphy he cant bring his top form from before last election back because he has taken the wrong path. Sell your soul makes it impossible to convert people.
I don’t think Milliband minds letting us know he doesn’t want to deal with Scots;
“if it meant that we weren’t going to be in government, not having a coalition, not doing a deal, then so be it.”
I’m sure he will be well rewarded!
Maybe he wouldn’t want us to know about any surreptitious deal he might already have going with his dark tory master and imperialistic Lords.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he was considering a position on the board of dictators of a dodgy bank or whatever; as he delivers his anti-Scottish rant.
They’re all in it together.
I think this gives Nicola a great opportunity.
When the motion being debated in WM has any effect on Scotland she can support Lab (if SNP agree with the policy, obviously).
On English only issues she can leave Milliband to be outvoted.
So Scotland will get more social justice and and England will lurch to the right as Boris Johnson becomes novelty leader and calls the shots.
Be prepared for a distinct lack of love bombing next Friday, folks.
@Dal Riata
God, I hope he’s that stupid, but I doubt it.
Ed can’t have missed the fact that Scotland’s FM is the most trusted and popular leader in the UK. If he slaps that hand away and forms a unity government with the Conservatives he’ll be in for a world of hurt from his own traditional left vote.
They’ll dump him so fast he wont know whether he’s been punched, bored or countersunk. The progressive left in England are looking for some fresh blood in Commons to stir things up a bit, put forward pro electorate policies. They also know Ed would struggle to do this on his own.
Ed will either deal on a vote by vote basis or lose Labour’s leftist credentials. The ultimate betrayal of all Labour’s founding ideology, supporting the haves over the have nots.
OK, were a good bit in so I’m going to wander a bit.
I think what we are taking part in, even through simply reading a blog page or witnessing the everyday reality of social media, in an information age where power can be challenged, is the demise of social determinism. Phew.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Which brings me back to reactionary arseholes like Marx, Charles Murray and apparently most of our Establishment. What to do with the lumpenprolitariat?
The Underclass
link to sociology.org.uk
Which unsurprisingly brings me back to the future.
Social informatics is a young intellectual movement and its future is still being defined. However, because SST theorists such as Williams and Edge suggest that the amorphous boundaries between humans and technology that emerge in social shaping technology research indicate that technology is not a distinct social endeavor worthy of individual study,[15] indicating that there is a need for social informatics research that bridges the gap between technological and social determinism. This observation, coupled with the many fields that contribute research, suggest a future in which social informatics theories and concepts settle to form a substrate, an “indispensable analytical foundation”[16] for work in other disciplines.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Re. Ed the Red. I thought he was bricking it but has been well coached to put a brave face on things.
Meanwhile, the money. Just for the record.
BP and Shell each have a 50% ownership interest in the Loyal Field.
The Schiehallion field ownership interest is split between Shell with 54.89%, BP with 33.55% and OMV with 11.76%.
What’s important in this election is that the oil money keeps going to the same people. Sure, have your little vote and your little TV debates. But it’s really all about the oil and how we keep it away from the Scots.
2 Million No voters. 2 Million ******* mugs.
The Conservative Party want a majority, the LibDems would work in a Conservative coalition, the Labour Party would rather have a Conservative government than work with the SNP. Does that mean that the only major party in the UK which is offended by the thought of a Tory government is the SNP?
Ed Miliband has never appeared to be Prime Minister material. Tonight he gave evidence of that once again.
Whether Miliband actually *does* become Prime Minister is yet to be seen, but should he do so, and with the help of the SNP, I, as an SNP member and supporter, will just have to bite the bullet and get on with it. But his rubbishing and degrading of Scotland and its people as part of the Better Together Vow Squad mafia from the time of the referendum campaign, right up to today and his attempted belittling of Scotland’s democratic principles will not be forgotten nor forgiven.
The thing is, if the SNP were offering candidates throughout the UK, perhaps with a slight change of name, and going by the disaffection for politicians and their parties in England, the chances are that they would win a majority!
And if the UK-wide electorate thought they could get Nicola Sturgeon as Prime Minister, and going by how highly she is regarded in England, well, it would be a bloody shoo-in!
Yet, Nicola Sturgeon will remain as Scotland’s First Minister and we in Scotland should be very glad of that.
Is there not a single Labour candidate in England with the backbone to stand up and say, “If the choice is between David Cameron and Nick Clegg getting back into power or doing a deal with parties of the progressive left, I am for the latter?”
It is just the same as their attitudes in parliament. Wait until the whips tell you what you believe in and then vote. No wonder the Yorkshire audience gave those twats such a hard time. The respect for politicians is sub zero – as it should be.
the idea of even supporting Ed Milliband on anything is repulsive.
Would n’t be surprised if the S.N.P. do win 59 seats now, after all who in Scotland wants to vote for a party who may be willing to put the tories into power, apart form Ruth Davidson.
Thanks to those that replied to my question earlier. what I am concerned about is could Miliband legally put a ban on any further Scottish Independence referendums for a period of time (10/20 years?) into a Queens speech? Thereby causing the SNP to vote against it. Labour could slink back into opposition and blame the SNP. Could this be a reason for them going on about “No Referendums” so much in their recent posters, leaflets and statements and also at FMQs?
The way things are going I wouldn’t put it past them.
It sounds to viewers in Scotland,who incidently haven’t voted tory since 1955, that the leader of the Labour party would rather allow the tories back into power than work with the party which opinion polls suggest Scotland is going to elect.
OT
This may have all ready been covered elsewhere. Apparently the Co-op have withdrawn monetary support of the Labour Party. It wasn’t small change ether.
Man in the Jar: I think if that graceless idiot Miliband were to do what you suggest, then of course the SNP could not support a Labour Queen’s Speech. If the Tories could not command sufficient numbers to get their Queen’s Speech past either, then we would have reached stalemate and Britain would simply have become ungovernable.
Malcontent wrote: “I think this gives Nicola a great opportunity.
When the motion being debated in WM has any effect on Scotland she can support Lab (if SNP agree with the policy, obviously). On English only issues she can leave Milliband to be outvoted.”
.
YES, LET’S THE MYTH THAT THE SNP NEED BE POWERLESS
Two parliaments, two prime ministers, one house. That’s where this bit of machismo leads.
I think if Miliband puts forward a Queen’s Speech that the SNP cannot support then Britain simply becomes ungovernable.
He doesn’t seem to understand that the game has changed because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act – minority govs aren’t going to have it a easy as they used to…
link to democraticaudit.com
@Vambomarbeleye
Do you have a source for your statement about the Co-op?
I’ve recently received voting papers for the Co-op AGM where this will be discussed, but it hasn’t happened yet. There were motions about whether the Co-op should support any political party, and if so, whether that should be confined to the Co-operative Party (and therefore effectively Labour).
The recommendation (rather to my surprise) was to vote in favour of abandoning the restriction. That’s not the same as totally withdrawing support, of course; the money might be shared by several parties.
@ CameronB Brodie
Unquestionably. The rise of social media expedited that change. It is unstoppable! People are sharing and cross checking information and such information travels much, much faster than your above-average editor/journalist/Parliamentarian.
As for those indifferent to change. They will simply be swept along with the wave…
I’ve been a lurker here since way back last year, decided it’s time to chip in.
We should be clear that based on recent polls Milliband absolutely DOES NOT want to be PM. It’s a poisoned chalice: he’ll need SNP support to pass any UK-reserved law where Scotland is somehow involved, and Tory support on anything EVEL. His only workable gambit was to say he’d consider any form of coalition (about two months ago) if it represented the UK voters’ will, and to say he openly ‘respected the democratic will of Scots electorate, better together blah blah’ – in those words – appearing democratic and principled. It might even have saved him a few MPs up here. But he blew it.
Cameron has the opposite mess… he MIGHT want to lose too at this stage. He can inflict as much EVEL as he likes, with the SNP abstaining, but he won’t be able to touch a WM-reserved-but-affecting-Scotland law without Labour support.
So a grand unionist coalition is not far-fetched: they’ll need one anyway for English Laws. Won’t their voters love that… it’ll be the cluster**** of parliaments.
I give it about a fortnight until: a)rUK declares UDI from Scotland. b)The red-blue-tories’ jointly pass some punitive undemocratic measure to limit the power of Scottish MPs (cue Scottish UDI), or c) they organise a major ‘accident’ up at Faslane … oh crap, I wouldn’t put it past them :/
The constitutional status quo is unworkable, and nobody will be able to keep denying it, not even Jimbo. Pass the popcorn.
I see that the Tories and Lib Dems are also fighting… Osborne claiming that it was Alexander who put forward the policy paper on more welfare cuts.
This is getting more fun by the day, and there’s still a week to go.
With the polls showing the SNP wiping out Labour, Miliband may have felt he might gain some seats in England with his tough talk.
If it doesn’t work and he has to go back to the people he will get slaughtered
The public will hold him responsible for back to back elections and for not taking the power that was there to be grabbed.
I find it inconceivable that anyone can even consider Devo Max ,FFA or any other mix that the establishment may dream up as being in anyway acceptable even in the short term.
Its absolutely clear they have no respect for us and actually loath us so how could they ever be trusted?The English people themselves endorse this behaviour by continually voting for this corrupt bunch of self serving bastards.They will have to find their own way and maybe they will wake up and follow our example.I am not at all convinced that any sort of arrangement with Labour would work out well for us but it seems Ed has knocked that on the head which may be a blessing.
Graham MacQueen
A glass half-empty perspective might think that although the development of social media has unleashed a powerful undercurrent of resentment, the development of social infomatics methodologies will ultimately muzzle the liberating properties of new technologies. Those that have the power to influence such matters, tend be monopolists or work for bigger misanthropic/’socially disordered’ sharks.
I suppose there’s always hope and an awareness of how fleeting some of life’s chances can be. 🙂
Could not have been a better result.
5 years more of the tories, here comes indy ref #2.
Oh for Gods sake let him have what he wants.
link to youtube.com
boris says:
link to caltonjock.com
I live in Springburn and here is a brief description of Springburn way the main shopping area. within an area of a 100m we have 4 bookmakers and a puggy shop, a bright house(rip off credit shop for desperate folk trying to get nice things for their kids)http://www.brighthouse.co.uk/?gclid=CM7E7Ofln8UCFSXHtAodkkMAQQ 3 pubs a health centre , cash for gold pawn, a funeral directors, criminal solicitors and the creme de la creme 5 chemists and one of them is like a visit to an argos store with up to 15 minutes waiting time, The methadone industry alone must be worth a £1 million + annually. All this within 100m area alone . Hard Working Willie EH? ps the chemists are all within spitting distance of each other within the 100 meter area.
If there is a hung parliament the SNP will be positive,constructive and sensible.Thats what Scottish voters demand of their elected representatives.Thats what draws people to it.If the London based parties want to act like a bunch of spoilt children,that’s their look out.
BBCr4 Today show’s Norman Smith a bit freaked out by Milliband but explains its all now clear, if you want Labour UK.gov, you must not vote SNP Scotland. Not very convinced sounding is our Norman.
Think on this possibility:
At the palace red and blue refuse to propose a queen’s speech, which may fail or only pass with SNP support.
In frustration Mrs Windsor threatens to ask the third largest party to propose a Queen’s speech. SNP jump at that chance.
Offering a left agenda suiting the UNITE MPs, an EU ref for the right wing Tories with 4 nation lock, NI sec to the largest NI party, Wales to PC with unions support, HoL abolition, English grand committee to meet in Yorks/Lancs to decide EVEL/devolution, bill to guarantee even capital spend in regions, etc.
The SNP strategists are good, but could they get in to no 10 with that?
Heres a litle story
Yesterday my wife answered the phone to a young man asking her how she’ll be voting to which she replied she would be voting SNP she went on to ask why he had called as having been registered with TPS for several years they were required not to call us, the caller then told her to “shut up Im ending this call” at which point he hung up,
My wife went “well if that’s how they (Labour) drum up support good luck”
But as she sat and realized just how rude the caller had been she decided to call them back and demand they remove us from their database, (tel no was shown) so when another (female) voice answered Irene advised her of our TPS registration, the person said “we’re not governed by TPS and we got your number from the electoral roll”
jump forward a couple of hours
It was only later when our daughter visiting for her tea (including my wine) 🙁 reminded us that when we had re registered on the electoral roll we had elected anonymity which of course meant our details would not be made public, which meant either the person was lying or were accessing details we had told the EC to withhold either way someones breaching rules.
Anyway after that call ended, minutes later we got yet another call from them to complain at my wife for HER abusive behaviour and the male caller described himself as “the manager” and the basic premise of his call was their entitlement to call us if they want because “thats our job” and she was not allowed to abuse his staff, my wife attempted to correct him that any “abuse” was directed at her when she was curtly instructed to “shut up” by the first caller and her second call was to ensure we were taken off their database,
the bottom line is they are shitting themselves when they feel able to attack the people they are trying to drum up support from,
post script
I called the Information Commissioners Office and the very pleasant lady who answered my call was very sympathetic and expressed a certain degree of exasperation when I told her WHO had been harassing us, she said its not the first time they have had to “have a word” with the Labour party for their phone behaviour,
Having told her that I had already had a previous conversation with the same office last year before the referendum when I politely asked them to take my number off their database, however even though it was the self same people (labour activists) I acknowledged this could by why Labour had called as they were not the people I had asked to remove me from their list but “Better Together” her response was to the effect that some people can be just TOO tolerant,
She then told me that the 1st call made was a clear breach of the ICO guidelines since I had requested they take us off their database the second call was much more serious as they had suggested they had the law on their side suggesting they had a “right” to invade my wife’s privacy which they absolutely do not.
The sense of entitlement I got from the conversation Irene had with “DUH MANAGEMENT” was breathtaking in its arrogance when faced with it first hand, these people need to be stopped,
Oh if only there was an election coming so we could be rid of them for good, OH?
His wording is personal. I. He might not have wriggle room,but the labour party does.
Forget about Murphy tweeting that if the SNP refuse to back Labour in a minority government, then it is they who have allowed the Tories back in.
Absolute nonsense.
What Murphy truly forgets here, is that Scotland will have voted in overwhelming numbers to give the SNP the authority to speak for them in Westminster; not Labour …the SNP.
Now, if we take the context of what might fall, the real blame will lie with the Unionist parties. By having all 3 denounce and refuse to work with the SNP, it is THEY who are subverting democracy. They are basically saying that they do not recognise Scotland as a legitimate result from this General Election, and therefore should not only ignored, but derided for their thinking too.
The SNP can vote Labour in, even if they haven’t agreed on a vote-by-vote basis yet, but the SNP just won’t sit there and be forced to agree with Labour on everything, all because of what supposedly happened in 1979. Miliband will know that he is always one vote away from seeing his government, if not even himself, from being brought down. These guys ponder and worry how history will remember them.
Read Suetonius’s ‘Lives of the twelve Caesars’ if need be, as Suetonius judges the first 12 Caesars as to whether they were deified (highly praised for all time) or cursed for what they did. Don’t think that this does not matter! Miliband, like Blair (as a great example) will worry how history will remember him. He is already remembered for fratricide in the political sense. He stabbed his brother in the back. Now will he be remembered as the man who so stupidly handed the reins of power to Cameron, or will he be remembered as a man who stubbornly refused to acknowledge a party in the Commons that his party in the end was truly ineffective.
This man will want to be remembered as having achieved something significant in his time in office. That it all meant something in the end. Ridicule is the last thing that he wants.
Miliband will quietly make deals with the SNP because if he doesn’t, there are many in his own party who will sharpen their own knives if they thought that their own position at the trough might be in serious danger. As one person said above ‘…et tu, Brutus?’
Bob W says @ 12.31am
“Labour’s stance reminds me of a scene from Blazing Saddles.”
Ahem
link to youtube.com
Ramsay MacMiliband?
Miliband has just declared UDI for England with this nonsense.
Are we going to get no representation in the government? It seems to me we have shades of America in 1776 with their “no taxation without repesentation”.
All politicians are haunted because of the decisions that they make. That is why many them write autobiographies to try and justify what they did in government.
Ed will not want to be remembered as a calamitous failure. He is bordering on the point of being remembered as a figure that is as bad as Foot and Kinnock.
He WILL cut a deal with the SNP even if England wails. Because at least, it gives him 5 years to justify that decision, and if he does get it right, then he will be remembered as a brave politician who made a difficult choice, but ended up running a pretty good minority government.
Or he can stick 2 fingers up at Angus Robertson, watch his party become toast in Scotland, Wales and the north of England, and be derided as figure of mockery.
He really only has one choice.
Consideration has to be given to the careerists in the Red Tory party. There are many, with influence, who didn’t become MPs just to sit on opposition benches.
Those aspiring to Ministerial positions will be making noise in the background to compromise so that their own personal aspirations are met.
Who knows, there may also be the odd radical voice somewhere within the Red Torys that despises the closed, cosy, London Elite Establisment led UK enough to speak out about the possibilities of working with the SNP in some form.
Someone from out with the South East, perhaps?
Millibonkers is just a frontman for others, he is not all powerful, therefor vulnerable.
The Red Torys could ditch him immediately after the 8th May if there are loud enough noises from within their ranks.
cyril mitchell says @ 7.22am
“Are we going to get no representation in the government? It seems to me we have shades of America in 1776 with their “no taxation without repesentation”.”
Having a Boston R Whites lemonade party doesn’t seem to have the same ring to it though. 😉
I get the feeling that Ed is a bit grumpy ’cause he has his own progressive change ideas, and there is no way that he’s going to be changing to the tune of those lefty women.
Nicola, Leanne and Natalie were really mean the last time they were together in the playground. Big Meanies.
They said nasty things and hurt his feelings and he’s not playing with them ANY MORE.
Don’t worry Ed, you should play with the other boys anyway,
That David And Nick, they like Starwars too?
– they only play the Dark side characters and want me to be Darth Maul and I only like to be Luke..
..David is mean sometimes too. And I heard him say a bad word..
Ok Ed, get your shoes on and get your lunch box, you’re going to be late for the bus.
-I don’t like the bus anymore, those girls might be on the bus..
Where is the lunch box,..Ed?
-..I think I left it at school again..
Oh Ed!..*sigh*
Im Still Trying To Get My Head Around The Difference Between A “Confidence And Supply” Arrangement (That Isn’t Being Offered By SNP) And A “Vote By Vote Basis”Arrangement.
Can Anyone Explain In Laymans Terms ?
Cheers
Looking forward to collecting £700 from the bookie next Thursday now.
Red Tories?
Home run for the SNP.
GAME OVER
Catching up with everything that’s been going on and it’s clear to me that Ed did open his mouth before his brain was fully enagaged and his backtracking and response to Dimbleby finally killed off Labour in Scotland.
This episode will keep the SNP role front and centre until the next government is formed. The pressure will continue to increase on Miliband and I understand he is on a day visit Scotland today. It will be the usual sterile environment and I hope journalists such as Channel 4’s Alex Thomson, and James Cook will seek to scrutinise him further.
The remaining days of the campaign in Scotland will focus on this and keep the non subject of indyref2 off the agenda.I really don’t think this will produce the swing Murphy was forlornly hoping for either.
I agree with others about the fixed term parliament changing the dynamics and it seems Nicola has done her homework on the subject. Her performance on Scotland 2015 was flawless and she is right with her analysis if Miliband keeps the Tories in power, he will never be forgiven.
Whilst I have also been sceptical about the SNP winning 40+ seats,I really think it is possible:
The leaders debates and interviews have exposed Murphy as an evasive, insincere and untrustworthy politician.
Nicola has displayed all the attributes of a skilled debater, orator and leader of international standing.
The SNP campaign is streets ahead and the selected interviewees for other media events all know their subjects very well.The Labour Party is all negativity and they have not articulated any vision.
Voters in Scotland now have the knowledge to challenge politicians and demand proper answers from them like never before.
The role and influence of the MSM is less than they would have us believe and trotting out old hasbeens to prop up failed arguments is not going down well on the doorstep either.
It’s all reminiscent of Obama’s mantra of Hope and Yes we can.
The SNP offers hope and change for the future.
Labour is all about the past and reliance on a failed WM system.
These really are exciting times for Scotland and we will prevail.
@cyril mitchell
I doubt they’d be so obliging cyril. If anyone in Westminster moved to effectively questioned the legitimacy of Scotland’s democratically mandated representation there truly would be a stooshie they’d never forget, hence project fear 2 (the return). They are attempting to fight this battle through the press rather than face the prospect in chambers.
Such an idiotic move to either ignore our representation, or in some way overturn it would result in one of Mr Salmond’s ‘different roads’ to independence. Yer actual constitutional crisis.
So no, I think they’ll stick to their preferred method of media intimidation.
The door Ed really opened up in the debate was the door to a grand coalition between the Labour Party and the Tories. They’ve done it before, amazingly, in Stirling, where Labour have gone into local government with the Tories.
Nicola has been very clear. She won’t vote to put the Tories in power. She will resist Trident and pro-austerity policies. And so, Labour and Tories will be able to continue with their own informal coalition on these matters, and there is nothing that can be done about that.
But what we will have in parliament will be a sizeable number of left of Labour politicians and any criticisms they can make of government policy will be reported as government goes about its business. Make no mistake, if Labour was able to cover Scotland red again, all Scottish MPs who desist from the party line, a line that is preselected before their conferences, would be silenced, and or deselected.
20-1 on a grand coalition… horrificly small odds.
Lets hear what Ed has to say on his flying visit to Scotland today. If he does allow the tory’s in, Labour are finished in England, his own MPs would chuck him out and do deals with SNP before they would allow any such deal with the tory’s
A couple of weeks ago, I suggested that, for reasons of the long term good of the Labour Party , in England, Miliband might pass on forming a government if the only option was with the SNP. Also, to avoid becoming the most hated man in English politics.
Once again, I demonstrate foresight and insight of mystifying accuracy.
The whole situation is so ridiculous and yet the problem is so easily solved…. SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE!
It is like trying to put together a government in a state which is a union of Brazil and Belarus. The two countries are so obviously different that this whole conundrum simply shows why we should no longer be in the same state as each other.
Addendum to my previous post about the unwanted call from the Labour party
I checked the TPS website about unwanted calls and it turns out the person who told Irene “were not governed by TPS” was right! (who knew)
The TPS website shows that direct marketing calls are not controlled by them but The Market Research Society (link to mrs.org.uk)
However I took up a serious complaint with the Electoral Commission because both of us on re registering our vote with the EC we both required the EC to keep us off the public database so others could not get our details (for this very reason).
I will take the EC all they way because if they did indeed divulge our details to the Labour party who according to them are “entitled to access our details” I will tear them a new one!
And I fully intend to make the canvassers who called us yesterday wish they had never heard our name because as individuals they can be personally held responsible for breaches of the Data Protection Act, “I was just following orders” DOES NOT WASH 🙂 incidentally their was no prior warning that the “calls may be recorded for training and monitoring purposes”.
So if the bastards call you and they confirm the calls are recorded you have every right to take them to task because it is a requirement of DPA that you are forewarned of that before you speak to them!
But on the plus side if such a recording is made you have the right to have the recording sent to you (for a small fee) so you can prove your point.
I would also imagine that they will be required under DPA to record the call so that a scenario such as this can be evaluated by the governing body. probably in this case the ICO.
back to work,
now for a complaint to the ICO. 😉
Ronnie Anderson
Message in O/T Ronnie about tonight.
Dougie Alexander was on BBC r4 Today show and Doug says SNP “brought in” the Maggie Thatcher government in 1979. So therefore we must not vote SNP and also SNP are being horrible and attacking Scottish Labour although that actually means putting up SNP candidates for election and Scottish people might vote for them. Its not much of an argument from highly esteemed in England Doug but now BBC liggers are doing something else unbearably boring in Plymouth.
Are there any voters in Scotland who actually believe dudes like creepy Jim, when they waffle away about how 6 SNP MP’s “brought in” Snatcher Thatcher world in 1979?
I really don’t think the ‘core’ vote in England and Wales for Labour is so large or so fixed as to be concerned that their party continues to vote with the Tories. They got used to it as part of the Better Together campaign, and the recent parliament even on welfare and NHS issues. Maybe this will be the last straw for the Welsh but for the English electorate they have now been primed. They are in siege mentality.
It’s all about England/Britain that schizophrenic identity they have. ( I of course exclude those who are voting for a progressive party). There will be no Labour/SNP situation ( I’m running out of words for something that isn’t coalition, isn’t supply and confidence etc etc). Only if the money men think it would be good. And that’s unlikely, they read the press and they’ve been told that anti-austerity is akin to anarchy. Despite Iceland’s revolution showing how quickly you can recover your country’s credit rating.
Miliband has bought into this seige narrative. Maybe he doesn’t quite understand the subtle nuances of 300 years of political friction. He’s being set up. I think the whole thing is being taken advantage of by the Tories. They can’t manufacture much of what has happened but they’ve been nudging where they can.
On phone so apologies for grammar/spelling. 🙂
@CameronB Brodie
The aforesaid change needs, however, to be on a personal level. By realising our ignorance towards politics and how ‘entangled’ everything is, people will change and not just regarding their choice of political party. Day by day the truth behind neoliberalism/capitalism is being uncovered for what it is. Change on a personal level will bring change to society.
I like to believe the mass arousals around the world are proof of that change in our mindset. We are slowly coming out of our lethargic state; some use violence others use a more ‘democratic’ method.
The downfall of our current social political system may be a long process and we are definitely in for a rough ride but that shouldn’t be a deferent, it should be our inspiration!
The seed of change has already started to sprout and any future effort to suppress technology or anything else for that matter can only exasperate such change!
Hope must be the last to fade.
It sounds like the Establishment is trying to solve the Scottish Independence problem with this General Election.
In GE15, we might be witnessing a deadly game being played by the Unionists. Operating a pincer movement to destroy the SNP as a legitimate political force so as to give the Establishment the excuse to annexe Scotland and bring it under some kind of emergency control of Westminster.
This is a bit far fetched but bear in mind that Westminster has made it clear that they will not allow Scotland to be lost through Independence. There is no greater threat to the future well being of England. The Establishment knows this even if the electorate don’t. That’s because the Establishment alone knows the true extent and value of Scotland’s energy wealth.
We’ll soon see.
Reached the vinegar stroke yet sensibledave? Quite a feat whilst slapping yourself on the back.
Ronnie Anderson
Message in Off Topic.
@ AlanGScott
Confidence and Supply = the SNP will vote with Labour to pass their Budget and to defeat a Vote of No Confidence should any party propose one.
A vote by vote = the SNP will support Labour on Bills it agrees with. No guarantee of support if a Vote of No Confidence is proposed so much more precarious for Labour.
TeamGB far right deep thinker grapples with Milliband preping not to be next Prime Minister. A beautiful mind.
link to twitter.com
Nelson very excited about Milliband trip too. teehee its a tory boy world
link to twitter.com
Are we soon to hear
“The laregest Party gets to form the Prime Minister!”
“Once again, I demonstrate foresight and insight of mystifying accuracy.”
We bow to your supreme intelligence oh great one.
NOT!
Is everyone sure that this particular version of project fear will not work?
On one hand scots should be immune to the “no deal and let the tories in message” because we have heard it from Mr Murphy forever, and it has not worked till now
However there is no doubt in my mind that people do not want the tories. Might it be that some were relying on the fact that some kind of deal would be done, and that Mr Miliband’s statement might be taken more seriously than Mr Murphy’s?
I sincerely hope that scots will just be outraged by this and that it will harden their determination, as so many here are confident will happen. But I am not sanguine about it.
We have to remember that we on this board are mostly very committed: but a great many are not.
Am I worrying unnecessarily? Will the next polls (assuming there are any) show a swing back to labour, albeit a resentful one?
In all the furore over Ed’s Gaffe, we forget that he also made an astonishing statement that all school leavers would be offered a job/apprenticeship, just like Jim Murphy told us, but if they didn’t take this offer up, they would lose benefits!
Did Jim tell us this part?
How does the extra £1600 work if it’s for the people who don’t get take up apprenticeships/college courses, when Ed says that they will be sanctioned?
“I hope it’s a girl,” says William, confirming the Palace once again steps up its interference in the process of the UK’s democracy.
My English (but grew up in NZ like me), No, Labour voting wife reckoned that Labour spurning the SNP and letting the Tories in was not only sure to happen but a good thing. I was astonished, she’s lived and worked here in Scotland since ’98 and she still doesn’t get how Scotland thinks. I told her that if she doesn’t want to live in an independenent Scotland she had better hope it doesn’t work like that.
Scotspine at 8.52am
Oh cheers Scotspine
I was enjoying that cup of tea,
its not so good when its coming out of your nose. 🙂
If the SNP remain true to their stance of only voting on matters except those which affect Scotland directly or indirectly ,then Miliband has a real problem.The likliehood is that the Tories and their allies could out vote Labour on any proposal which has no support of the SNP.
The SNP could defend this traditional stance quite effectively.whilst bolstering Labour in any no confidence vote which ensues.
However,something in Nicolas stance makes me think she is playing for and to a wider audience here, which may affect decision making policy..
I
I hope everybody in Wales heard what I heard and perceive what I perceived and put the boot into Labour as well by voting PC.
AlanGScott says
“Im Still Trying To Get My Head Around The Difference Between A “Confidence And Supply” Arrangement (That Isn’t Being Offered By SNP) And A “Vote By Vote Basis”Arrangement.
Can Anyone Explain In Laymans Terms ?
Cheers”
I think you get a badge and some nameless rewards like a scroll or summat with confidence and supply,
with vote by vote its like a one night stand where you take the persons telephone number and swear you’ll call them. 🙂
sinky claims, “As in 2010 when Labour refused to form a progressive alliance with Lib Dems and SNP, vote Labour and get Tory.”
No, the LibDems chose to coalesce with the Tories and rejected Labour. So people who voted LibDem thinking they would get a Labour/LibDem alliance got the Tories instead.
Similarly now, people who vote SNP thinking they will get a Labour/SNP alliance will get – a Tory/LibDem government again.
Wow, just wow, so Labours core election message to Scotland is just pure blackmail, vote for us or we we’ll let the Tories back in.
Project Fear 2. Well I suppose it worked for the referendum, and we Scots are a bit stupid and easy to scare.
Fair play to them, clearly it’s all over, might as well just sit back down, do what wir telt and eat wir Crunchy Nut, if we know what’s good for us.
Seriously, what a shower of scum bags they are. Don’t they know, no one in Scotland is falling for their pish any more.
@Ian Brotherhood says: 1 May, 2015 at 12:05 am:
“PS What’s happened to the bold Jackie anyway? Haven’t seen her for yonks.”
Let’s face it, Ian, that woman is not easy to overlook, even in a big crowd.
No Union orientated party will do business with Scotland’s elected government solely to prove to the ‘stupid’ blind people of Scotland they have only one master and that is eternally whomsoever inhabits Westminster in greater number.
Scotland! Know Your Place!
Chic McGregor says
“He would still come over as more Aardman than Hardman.’”
I was thinking more Melman
link to youtube.com 🙂
Used to like John Cleese, but it turns out he’s just a bawbag like the rest of them.
Now realising that “Better Together” was actually in reference to the tory and labour parties. Desperate times need desperate measures what with us North of the border neglecting to remember our place.
PART OF BRITAIN IS MISSING
Anyone with information as to its whereaboots please contact:
(in the complete absence of Fatty Carmuckle), Jim the Spud c/o
Ed Milliburden, The Labour Party, Englandshire
OT Brent Crude broke through the 65$ glass ceiling it has been bouncing off for a month yesterday – big time.
Ended near 67$. Looks like the brakes have been taken off.
No doubt there will be short term profit taking at the start of the day but it has the feel of a real rally.
What has Cleese been saying? Fawlty Powers?
@ Chic McGregor
But…but… forecasters and economists assured me that very low oil prices were here to stay.
Very clever people, economists and forecasters. Top of the range crystal balls, as well
John King.
🙂
Your posts in the morning always make me laugh (granted the one today about being harrassed is the exception)
So here is a wee link for you reg 1776 which you may find interesting.
have a good day 😉
link to en.wikipedia.org
I have long held – from most of England (and I lived and worked in West Yorkshire for five years) – Scotland is a small, far-away country, of which they know nothing.
The Westminster elite failed to take cognicance of the fact, the SNP ran a minority government for four years, without an official agreement with an opposition party: on the basis of asking their opponents: “OK, you will not vote for our proposals, what will you vote for.”
The other Holyrood parties all at one time or another, spoke to the SNP, got policies amended to the extent they could support them, and Scotland had four years of stable government.
The one Holyrood party which refused to back the SNP on anything (as far as I can remember) was the Labour Party – in their eyes, they could support nothing the SNP suggested.
Ed Miliband’s view of Scotland and the SNP is slewed by what he learns about Scotland and the SNP from the likes of Wee Dug Alexander, Big Dim Jim and Magrit Curran – all of whom have an intense hatred of the SNP.
Also, he has been brought-up with the Westminster system of the party in government being a democratically-elected dictatorship.
Therefore, he simply cannot accept – sensible minority government can be made to work.
If he can learn that in the period between the General Election and the recall of the Westminster parliament, he has a chance of being Prime Minister; if he cannot – he is toast, along with Wee Dug, Magrit and Big Dim Jim.
“Similarly now, people who vote SNP thinking they will get a Labour/SNP alliance will get – a Tory/LibDem government again.”
When are you going to get it in your thick head, we’ve had enough of English voters choice of government, were voting for who will actually represent US we aren’t secretly wishing for a Labour government, WE DONT CARE WILL,
they two cheeks of the same arse!
@Scots Pine and John King
… it is very hard being so humble when blessed with such gifts.
@ All
Reading the above and other threads, I am still struck by the general attitude here that everyone is to blame for Scotland voting No – other than the Scots! As I keep saying, but you refuse to accept it, most people in England don’t care whether Scotland goes independent or not – only that the Scots get whatever they want.
Let’s see some withering attacks on the majority of your fellow Scots for being toady, Westminster loving, masochistic numpties – rather than everyone else who didn’t have a vote.
Off topic I know but have you ever read such guff in your life?
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
David Cameron must be laughing his head off, Red Ed just killed Labour in Scotland, his statement rather Tory than SNP will go down a treat in England, but he will not be made to forget that ever, I never liked the expression Red Tory, was never apt as Scottish labour were a socialist party and to the vast majority of the Scottish population Tory is a toxic brand, with one TV performance Red Ed slapped the face of half the population of Scotland and handed David Cameron the keys to Downing Street, it is an insult that will be used again and again by the SNP to completely obliterate Scottish Labour.
At the referendum it was stated again and again that they didn’t want Scotland to leave,”stay and help lead” was the cry, now we have the truth, courtesy on Ed Milliband, get back in your box sniveling jocks, you will have No say, even if it is your democratic choice. The SNP stated that they wanted to lock out the Tory’s, now we see the union raw “in tooth and claw” Labour lock out the SNP, the union they may think its a master stroke, to the SNP as someone said earlier will show faux anger at this, but remember the SNP didn’t want a ministerial cars, just the opportunity to have Scotland’s voice heard louder than ever, by slamming the door in our face they have kick started the call for freedom, if we cannot have democratic legitimacy in Westminster then now is the time to plan our escape. My last point is directed straight to Jim Murphy, you stated the book that motivated you into politics was the ragged trouser’d philanthropist, funny me too, remember how that starts Jim, ” they would rather destroy the world than give an inch of their power” so to Scottish Labour, what side are you on boys!
@Socrates
“The one Holyrood party which refused to back the SNP on anything (as far as I can remember) was the Labour Party – in their eyes, they could support nothing the SNP suggested.”
On a couple of occasions, at least, they couldn’t even support anything they suggested themselves.
Gary Robertson being his sneaky self of BBCS this morning.
As usual in the BBC way, ending up with getting their own
message across in a subliminal way.
All this “vote against us and put Tories in” Blackmail forgets one thing:
Scotland vote FOR the SNP..its not a Protest vote from wannabee Labour fans. We support the SNP.
If Nicola says “we vote against this Lsbour Govt and here is why..” then the reaction in Svotlsnd will simply be “Thank you and well explained!”
Any Labourite thinking this is holding a knife to SNPs throat is like Bruce Willis in The 6th Sense.
I think we have to know , is Milliband’s position a “vow”.
Don’t understand the surprise over what happened last night. Remember this is the guy who wanted border guards on posts between Carlisle and Berwick. How could any Scot vote for them?
John Cleese attempting a Scottish accent,
link to facebook.com
The Labour party in Scotland are defunct and moraly bankrupt and have been since sept’ 18th 2014. The only way back for them is if they form another party; a unionist party still, but with the interests of Scotland and it’s people as one of it’s core values.
They have no interest in following any other path than that set out by their political masters in England when they should be taking a leaf out of the SNP book and use their MPs influence in Westminster to further the cause for the betterment of their own country and indeed holding “English” Labour or any other English based party’s feet to the fire with regards to any policies that are detrimental to their own country.
There is no place in Scotland for a party that is branch office of another based in England, but there is a place in Scotland for another party that will serve their own country and it’s people first and foremost with the same applying to members of the branch office Liberal Democrats.
@One_Scot
Ta
@Jim Mitchell
A thousand word Kenny Dalglish impersonation: “Mibbees Aye, Mibbees Naw”
Jim, archived copy of that daily record link.
link to archive.is
I think he’s nailed himself to a cross in middle england as well. Why vote for someone who is incapable of co-operation?
Another country indeed.
link to derekbateman.co.uk
Just a thought –
Could Macho Milliband just have started the process whereby the Labour Party itself breaks up.
Surely it could not survive the strain of watching its leader allow another 5 years of Tory rule.
No need to wait for the release of the next “Mission Impossible” film.
Its happening in front of us now.
[…] You’re probably going to see this misreported in the press quite a lot tomorrow. We thought we should get the whole thing up for the record, to avoid confusion. […]
Scotland wants Independence, no question, they just scared us out of it.
The question is this, are we going to buckle every time they threaten us.
john king
On the electoral register, there are actually two.
The full register includes names, and is made available to candidates for election (by convention registered parties active in an are get it every year whether there is an election or not).
If you tick the “no name” box, your name is not included on the edited register, which is sold to anyone, e.g. marketing firms.
However, neither includes phone numbers, so someone in SLAB is matching the register to the phone book.
Labour party activists in Scotland are in despair over Ed Miliband’s comments, “Better Tory than Labour PM”
Sensibledave
“it is very hard being so humble when blessed with such gifts”
I am such an umble man!
Am I humble if I say I’m humble?
The answer is NO. a person who is truly humble will never mention it, and let alone never think of it as a goal. a humble person is someone who does good and what not for no recognition, and by calling yourself humble you are calling forth recognition. But this does not always mean you are a bad person or anything, but just that you still have some growing to do in your cause.
link to youtube.com
Jim Mitchell says at 9:42 am
Off topic I know but have you ever read such guff in your life?
Whit journalism school did this numpty go tae?
Kipling at age six aye right.
Archie MacPherson i thought that auld bigot was deid. 🙁
I think you need a new job Stephen cause Kipling you aint.
😉
@Dr Jim says: 1 May, 2015 at 12:20 am:
“That’s my basic understanding of it but if Robert Peffers is about he’s your man with more knowledge than me on constitutional stuff”
I’m aye about Dr Jim, stuck at home on medical advice. This is a second try to reply – first one vanished.
The Rev Stu pointed links to important constitutional stuff in his article above:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
Follow them and be sure to and get your order for pop corn in early.
besides, “Confidence”, there is also, “No Confidence”, and, “Supply”, is also another matter that, without the SNP and other non-Establishment parties, means no matter who get nominal power they cannot use their power.
Lots of people on WoS probably think me far too pedantic but on legal and constitutional matters words must be precise.
So when Miliband says he won’t work with anyone who wants to break up his, “Country”, and he obviously means The UK but might actually mean Britain or England could indicate that either he is utterly ignorant or he thinks we are.
The point is that the Establishment made a grave error when they started devolution. They tried to work the biggest flanker ever undertaken by the Establishment.
Their whole idea was to make the Westminster Parliament the actual parliament of the country of England but to kid everyone on it was still the United Kingdom Parliament.
Astonishingly it actually worked and now the Establishment have actually commissioned a paper in which they had a couple of their tame experts claim, and I quote how the lone Tory from Scotland stated it, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the KINGDON of Scotland and renamed the KINGDOM of England as The United KINGDOM”.
Note here the precise use of, “Kingdom”, as opposed to, “Country”. Note that the Establishment party hacks keep referring to their, “Country”, when referring to the United, “Kingdom”, and that the Westminster Parliament is now split up as four countries. So the Establishment use these two terms so as to make their case as and when either term makes their best claim seem reasonable.
This is not just random pig ignorance it is deliberate propaganda to make their efforts actually make the two Kingdom union into just one big country called The United Kingdom that they claimed the Treaty of Union created. Believe me the Treaty of Union said no such thing.
Look up, “Custom and Usage”.
link to legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com
It could eventually by claimed by the Establishment to legally prove in court that by custom and usage the people of, “The United Kingdom”, by, “custom and usage”, had accepted the United KINGDOM was legally a single COUNTRY.
It is a simple idea but it is a real bugger to try to explain simply.
Keep your eye on the ball – follow the money, the establishment and MI5/MI6 never sleep – smoke screen politics – postal vote fraud is on the cards.
Even though the BBCists can’t even bring themselves to say the SNP is polling above 50% (its always ‘just about’), the really dismal Labour polls are making it hard for postal vote fraud to be covered up – but certain seats will be affected and Murphy’s will be one in his favour.
We need to turn our backs permanently on Wasteminster politics.
The tories must be absolutely larfing their socks off, Ed really looks like an idiot, he is unpopular to start with and his empty, insincere words will not go down well in the more labour areas in England, what is left of them.
I do wonder how people will vote in places like NE England, because as a tradionally socialist left wing working class region, they will not be happy to get into bed with the tories. That could be interesting.
Afraid some, possibly too many, still believe the msm as gospel, and many still do not use the internet or social media, my brother being one of them. He is visiting from the NE England this weekend, be interesting to see just how deep the brainwashing goes, or not.
Ps live preview box has disappeared for some reason lately.
So Miliband is in effect telling us Scots that if we vote for the SNP in large numbers, then we will be ignored at Westminster. Taxation without representation. Isn’t that how they lost the American colonies?
Caroline Flint and Andy Burnham already back tracking.
One_Scot wrote:
“Seriously, what a shower of scum bags they are. Don’t they know, no one in Scotland is falling for their pish any more.”
Seriously, don’t bank on it.
__________
Jim Mitchell wrote:
“Off topic I know but have you ever read such guff in your life?”
(link to Unionist scum rag removed)
Nope, i don’t help the Unionist cause by promoting their guff.
How many WOS links does the DR allow you to post on its site?
Stu, I remember Alex Salmond saying during the referendum that there could be another referendum if Scotland was taken out of Europe against our will but I can’t find the interview. Could you do an article showing that the Labour claim that SNP are going to break their promise on another referendum is misrepresenting what was said with that clip of Alex Salmond or another similar?
For what its worth guys – you need to put this in the face of every dipshit loyal labour voter who is still stubbornly hanging on to their delusions. Their leader would rather have tories in than work with a progressive left wing party
Milliband is just using scare tactics like what was used during the Referendum to try to get the the people of Scotland to vote labour. I just hope the people of Scotland realise this and don’t make the same mistake again.
@ Chris
I wouldn’t lose any sleep over what Alex Salmond did or didn’t say, the simple likelihood of a Scottish decision to remain in the EU against an English decision to leave will automatically create a constitutional crisis all by itself.
@charlie says: 1 May, 2015 at 12:32 am:
“oh ffs the nightmare grand coalition is back in my nightmare scenario, does Milliband really want to destroy the Labour Party more that be Prime Minister?”
You forget, Charlie, that, “The Establishment”, is the real deal and the individual, “Establishment”, Parties are only a means to control the plebs.
Open your eyes, Charlie, look at the leadership of the, “Establishment”, parties. It’s a chore to look up and post their social, education and work/political careers but they are all cut from the very same general background. The Establishment Parties are a smokescreen for the benefit of fooling the electorate.
When the chips are down they will, as always, unite against their common enemy. in this case Scotland, Wales, N Ireland and the Greens. The Labour Party, once their common enemy, long ago were infiltrated and joined, “The Establishment”. When was the last timer a person with a Working Class background headed the Labour Party?
BTW: The establishment includes the Financial Sector, the English Churches, The Royals & aristocracy, The upper echelons of the Armed Services, Civil Service and English Education system plus the MSM and main and state broadcasters.
Either he’s lying, or he’s incredibly stupid. Either way he’s not fit to be PM. This is politics, not primary school. Cutting your nose off to spite your face is not a viable option.
I honestly think that if he refuses to do any deal with the SNP and it starts to look likely that the Tories will be forming the government then the rest of his party will try and remove him asap before the damage is done.
Whatever happened to us leading the union?
@ sensibledave:
” As I keep saying, but you refuse to accept it, most people in England don’t care whether Scotland goes independent or not – only that the Scots get whatever they want. ”
Then please feel free to fuck off! and stop yelping like a puppy trying to get it’s masters attention.
@ john king at 10:21 am
I wrote ““it is very hard being so humble when blessed with such gifts”.
You wrote: “The answer is NO. a person who is truly humble will never mention it, and let alone never think of it as a goal. a humble person is someone who does good and what not for no recognition, and by calling yourself humble you are calling forth recognition. But this does not always mean you are a bad person or anything, but just that you still have some growing to do in your cause.”
Err John, are you familiar with the concept of humour. One way of trying to be humorous is to write something that is so obviously preposterous that it couldn’t be understood as anything other than humour – other than by a po faced numptie that’s had a sense of humour bypass?
What is it with you guys? The SNP are flying in the Polls, Labour are on their knees in Scotland and wont get a majority in England. The Tories have virtually no representation in Scotland. No one will work with the Tories such they probably can’t get a majority at Westminster (other than a grand coalition?). In SNP terms, it doesn’t get any better than this.
When St Nicola went on TV and announced to the UK that her 1m to 2m votes in the Westminster Parliament would, effectively overrule the will of 25 million other voters in the UK in terms of the economic policies that would be brought in in the next Parliament – did you believe her? Really?
Milliband can’t talk about any arrangement with the SNP at present as he would be pulling the rug from under Murphy & Co, but as he has now painted himself into a corner on this issue, any majority that Labour can stack up to keep the Tories out, they will have to do so without Milliband. His credibility is shot. Kenny G has the right of it.
I get the ‘backpedal’. But I think it just cost Labour the election.
As others have said, whilst apparently attempting to shore up the Labour vote in the south, Milliband is prepared to sacrifice his support in Scotland. Or, so it seems.
He of course knows from the polling that Scotland appears ‘lost’ to the SNP. But they are doing the marginal maths too. They could realistically claw back some support with this strategy. I actually think he was giving Murphy wriggle room with this, as immediately Murphy tweeted ‘unless Scotland voted Labour, Tories would be let in’ same old trope, you may think, but they are ‘singing from the same hynm sheet’.
They are using the tried and tested tactics that ‘worked’ before. It’s exactly the same pincer movement as the referendum, that’s why Murphy has all his guns pointed toward the independence question. To shore up the ‘majority’ from the silent No’s.
Milliband aimed his guns at Scotland last night too (as well as telling those on the left in England that they will not align with an anti austerity agenda, which is what the SNP/PlaidC/Greens are offering), and whilst all who are deeply engrossed in the finer nuances of parliamentary arrangements and are closely following what is taking place know he didn’t in essence rule out vote by vote. Swathes of undecided voters who are not so switched on, will simply ‘hear”no deal’ with SNP.
And Murphy will go ‘see, see, I told you so, if you vote for SNP it’ll make no difference, you’ll just be lettin’ the Tories in!’. Milliband’s so called faux pa gives Murphy, in this one full out last ditch manoeuvre, full legitimate claim to the lie, that voting SNP will let the Tories in, as Milliband just backed him up.
It’s the ‘people’ they are trying to ‘blame’ here.
They don’t have to ‘win’ over anyone, they just need to keep ‘applying’ the ‘fear works strategy’ of Blair and McTernan.
Labour will lose, simply because the conservatives will continue to push the line that they have formed the ‘stable alliance’ and they will hoover up the ukip voters with the in/out ref, they may yet win a majority just because of the sheer numbers. And Milliband’s performance last night will have absolutely reassured the conservatives that he is an absolute idiot.
For us…we push and push to get as many SNP’s in as possible, let them continue to marginalise the democratic will at their Union’s peril. It doesn’t matter to us who is in, it matters to us that we get in, to get out as soon as is realistically possible.
Leading up to next Thursday we remain steadfast and keep talking to people, after next Thurday we remain steadfast and keep talking to people.
Anecdote: walking back from hole in the wall, on Byres Road, guy outside curlers, 50’s maybe, nods hi, (of course we don’t know each other, but when does that ever matter in Glasgow 🙂 ). Pass by, and he calls over to me “looks like we’re geyin’ the British state a right run…” laughingly. So I go over to him, and he says “SSP all the way…fur me”, says I “Naw, SNP, 2015, SSP or whoever 2016, SSP or whoever 2017″. As we part, having shook hands and first name intro, he calls over…”I’ll think aboot whit ye said aboot SNP this time”.
We go for the head in 2015, we route them from the heart 2016, and we take their souls in 2017.
(Too dramatic? Moi!) 🙂
JLT says:
He WILL cut a deal with the SNP even if England wails. Because at least, it gives him 5 years to justify that decision, and if he does get it right, then he will be remembered as a brave politician who made a difficult choice, but ended up running a pretty good minority government.
Or he can stick 2 fingers up at Angus Robertson, watch his party become toast in Scotland, Wales and the north of England, and be derided as figure of mockery.
He really only has one choice.
should that not read one sensible choice , and who here thinks he will make the sensible one, and who here thinks the hatred and mistrust of the SNP by labour will control the decision , shaping up for interesting times ahead and the fun doesn’t look like ending even after the election,
the ramifications will last for a long long time.
@ Patrick Roden 11.16
…. is it the phrase “only that the Scots get whatever they want” that irks you soo much? You just can’t accept that the rest of us in the Union truly want whatever the majority of Scots want. What are we supposed to do? Evict Scotland kicking and screaming out of the Union – against the will of the majority?
It doesn’t fit with your portrayal of us does it. It is much more convenient and easier for you to blame us, the English bogeymen, – than turn your ire at yourselves and your SNP politicians who failed abysmally, totally, in the simplest and clearest of objectives. Blame “Westminster”, English politicians, the establishment, etc, etc, – but no blame whatsoever should ever be aimed at your lot for their incompetence – or your fellow Scots who you failed to convince.
Haven’t been around here much have you sensibledave?
If you had you would have seen many discussions on the SNP and the Yes campaigns mistakes.
Now I ask you very kindly and with total regard for your sensitivities to bugger off and do some research prior to writing splenetic drivel.
@JLT says: 1 May, 2015 at 7:13 am:
” …What Murphy truly forgets here, is that Scotland will have voted in overwhelming numbers to give the SNP the authority to speak for them in Westminster; not Labour …the SNP.”
Hi JLT, The Rev Stu gave this link up there /|\
link to en.wikipedia.org
It is very well worth a read and shows the tools the SNP will have if they hold a big representation at Westminster.
There is virtually nothing they cannot stop including the financing of anything that harms the Scottish Block Grant.
it applies to not just votes of confidence, votes of no confidence but to supply too. Supply is the supply of funds and funds, by way of the Westminster decided Block Grants, FFS and Barnett Formula has always been a big threat that Westminster held over Scotland.
A large SNP contingent, in no formal agreement with anyone, not only removes the funding threat from the Westminster government but reverses it. They can cut off the funding supply for such as cross-rails, HS rail links, London Olympics and such like.
The Establishment will have no options but co-operation or resign. No wonder there is alarm throughout the Establishment.
May the fear be with them.
To: Snnsibledave. Oh dearie, dearie me someone really has put a burr under your saddle. We don’t blame anyone for not passing the 50% threshold but we do blame the liars in the media, TV/Radio/Newspapers and chief amongst these are the BBC,Record and the whole London based southern media. However many of those that allowed themselves to be misled have now had their eyes opened and now realise that actually ‘YES’ was the correct choice.
Auld Rock
@AlanGScott says: 1 May, 2015 at 8:01 am:
“Can Anyone Explain In Laymans Terms ?
The Rev Stu already has, AlanScott, Up there /|\
This link :
link to en.wikipedia.org
Minibrain’s advisers have just made a gross error of judgement by trying to blackmail Scots. If Lab can’t get SNP to vote for their queen’s speech, it’ll be because it doesn’t meet enough of SNP’s political aspirations, and, as with any other party, we walk away. Lab are slightly less distasteful to most Scots than Tory, but the difference isn’t enough to abandon the current groundswell; we want fair representation at WM.
Let them all fight it out without our involvement, I’ve every confidence in our team to stand up for Scotland. The only way we can lose the Scottish people is to doff our caps to any of that lot!
Graham Macqueen
I’d vote for a chance of that. 😉
as was once observed of Edward VIII, Milliband is only at his best when the going is good
he has been promoted beyond his abilities, and it shows
Senmsibledave says
“Err John, are you familiar with the concept of humour. One way of trying to be humorous is to write something that is so obviously preposterous that it couldn’t be understood as anything other than humour – other than by a po faced numptie that’s had a sense of humour bypass?”
Ironic or what?
not from around these here parts are ya pilgrim?
maybe you would care to look around this site and look at my comments Mr Sensible, or then again maybe you’d like to just saddle up and ride on out of town stranger afore we rustle up a posse and lynch your sorry ass.
Hilary Benn backtracking
@gillian
As it was in the referendum this tactic is a way of converting main stream media followers. He has given up on Scotlands main stream readers probably due to yesterday’s sun. Now is aiming for all he can in england .Without actually having said no deal by deal he can pretend hes ruled it out and gather as many followers for six days. Shameful and see through it only depends on how many are stupid
Zoe Williams Guardian, ‘People love the SNP’.
@ Auld Rock 12.07
You wrote: “We don’t blame anyone for not passing the 50% threshold”
Then, immediately after, you wrote: “but we do blame the liars in the media, TV/Radio/Newspapers and chief amongst these are the BBC,Record and the whole London based southern media”
So, again, as I understand it, you are arguing that the Majority of Scots were convinced about Independence just before the referendum – then, the press in London, the hated BBC, and a bunch of fresh faced, oxbridge types from England had their say – and the majority disappeared?
Is the average Scot really that gullible? Or, as suggested earlier, is that just a convenient excuse for the fact that the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, etc, failed completely – and the majority of Scots are/were just not convinced.
As many here keep saying, the GE next week is for the Westminster Parliament and every Party has the absolute right to represent its supporters however they choose to in London. I hope you accept that includes the rest of us too. If everyone else thinks SNP policies are complete tosh, then everyone else has a right to not have anything to do with them?
Whilst I doubt the following will be given any credibility here, my guess is that a majority of Scots probably do think that Independence would be a good move for Scotland. However, many of them also see what comes with it, i.e. SNP policies to run the economy – Spend, borrow, tax – and they know that wont work. So, better to have the comfort blanket of us in London and the south east generating truck loads of cash, to deal with the fall out of loony policies – than leave it to the SNP to run things.
The average Scot is a true patriot! I have no idea what goes through the heads of the cravens and lickspittles though.
Please can someone spray some fucking fly spray, it’s buzzing aboot, annoying fucker..
@ Andy and Croompenstein
Annoying? As in, holds up a mirror, highlights other points of views, speaks inconvenient truths?
Ed shuddered at the idea of darkened room compromises with liberal Nick, but didn’t disqualify the idea of him and Dave sharing 11 am Kitkats and putting aside their etch-a-sketch principles ‘for the sake of Great Britain’.
Why bother wearing a red tie?
Because you need your electorate to understand that you are a Red Tory.
Like Clapham Junction the other day.
Sorry the doors on the LEFT are not functioning, we’ll figure something out, in the meantime all you people just, ah, wait?
Sensible Dave: So, better to have the comfort blanket of us in London and the south east generating truck loads of cash, to deal with loony policies…
‘Guessing’ what was allegedly in the head of voters is arrogance. Still, who am I to deny you a ‘comfort blanket’ of your own?
@Sensitivedave
You’re not annoying me. I just can’t see things (through piss stained glasses) that way. I’m all about having faith in myself and my country to be able to prosper in the future and not get too hung up on the BS of naysayers. The only Loony toon policies are coming from crackpot parties of the deep South.
Y’see Dave this is what you keep doing:
Taking someone else’s statement and just running it though your own mind prisms and all you ever do is reveal your own references and expose the limits of your own thinking.
More pertinently you exude a kind of impotent comtempt that keeps slipping through in your posts, for those who do not veiw the world as you do:
“So, again, as I understand it, you are arguing that the Majority of Scots were convinced about Independence just before the referendum – then, the press in London, the hated BBC, and a bunch of fresh faced, oxbridge types from England had their say – and the majority disappeared?”
He didn’t actually say “…the Majority of Scots were convinced about Independence”. He’s saying that the votes for the No propostion were aided by the stated interventions. He doesn’t even and as far as I am aware no one on here has ever state/stated what you just have.
The polls were close Dave, and that is what brought on the ‘big push’ intervention at the end: ‘A’ majority for the No vote ensued.
The full weight of the establishment was brought to bear on this and you deny it all you want and twist the meaning of others’ posts all the live long day Dave. It’s what happened.
This makes a nonsense of your next paragraph:
“Is the average Scot really that gullible? Or, as suggested earlier, is that just a convenient excuse for the fact that the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, etc, failed completely – and the majority of Scots are/were just not convinced.”
The fears and smears do work Dave. Why can’t you just be an honest person. Let me put this to you. Why advertise? Because it works. It doesn’t work on everyone. So you find out by employing ‘focus groups’, and doing a bit of ‘market research’ to discover what does work so that more people will buy what you are selling.
It’s not a matter of the ‘average Scot’, it is a matter in this case, of the entire weight of the establishment being thrown behind a propostion to ensure ‘enough’ of their chosen demograph ‘pick’ the right product. Fear was the product and many people buy ‘into’ fear.
You are either being naive or just looking for a way to be insulting, I’m veering strongly toward the latter.
“I hope you accept that includes the rest of us too”
You speak as if you are a victim. I think we all know by now what the true state of play is, regarding whose polity has the greater number of votes and therefore whose overarching prospectus has shaped the political landscape of this Union.
You are entitled to your opinions regarding the SNP’s polices. But you have to stop attacking others who hold a differeing view though, it’s just coming across as ‘sneering’. (Which is what people do when they are scared and experiencing feelings of impotence; dinnae fret we’re no gonnae steal yer life awa’ fae ye).
Stop being so mean and petty. Or to use more direct languange; stop being such an arse and talking utter poppycock.
@ Grouse Beater 2.00pm
You Wrote: “‘Guessing’ what was allegedly in the head of voters is arrogance.”
You need to have a word with many above then – they all claim to know what was going on the mind of the voters. It was the Tories, the BBC, the newspapers, the establishment, the Westminster elite, the threats, the bullying, etc – or, just maybe, the majority thought the idea of the SNP running an independent Scotland was too awful to vote for?
The problem you have is Independence and the SNP are seen as going hand in hand. However, the majority of Scots are more afraid of SNP economic policies than they are of Westminster. Canny bunch.
Sensible Dave: The problem you have is Independence and the SNP
Now you are telling me what I think.
I have no problem with independence or the SNP only with being given advice from a self-appointed amateur.
But as you waste a chunk of your life trying to convince otherwise it’s clear you have a problem with people in Scotland rejecting Westminster crapology.
He’s made the rod for his own back..
@ GB, friend Will Podmore has been warning us about imperialist types like @ sensibledave, what!
@ sensibledave
I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick about the democratic principle of Scottish Independence. For instance, personally, I want self-government for moral reasons (illegal wars, WMDs, arms sales industry, institutionalised abuse and corruption within ruling elite, expenses fraud, unelected house of lords, an outdated monarchy, and so on and so on).
Yes, we have a small population but the resource potential is huge. But I’m sure an Independent Scotland will do everything in its power to come to the aid of the English people when their economy finally collapses. It’ll be the least we can do to help out an old friend.
@ K1 2.27
Respect! A powerfully worded and thought-out pronouncement of your position and your views on the main issues. I accept everything you say as being your point of view as a passionate Scot that wants Independence.
Whilst I also accept I am not on “home turf” here, occasionally I have to be a little more robust with some as they don’t display the same logic or thoughtfulness as you do.
We agree, perhaps, on everything other than whether SNP economic policies would be good for the UK.
Genuinely, as most in England do, if it is felt that there has been another “shift”, in the next year or so, such that another referendum should be had – then we would support that.
Whatever the outcome of the GE, the subsequent week or so is going to be difficult and very divisive for the Union. As I sit here today, I can’t see any government that can be formed that wont lead to further division and acrimony.
I’m guessing that the “continuing austerity” parties will gather, probably, around 70/80% of the popular vote – so why should a democratic outcome reflect anything other than that? At the same time, it looks like the SNP will sweep the board in Scotland and win 50 seats representing constituents that have voted for more spending, borrowing and taxing.
No meeting of minds there. How do you square that circle without peeing off loads of people on either side? You can’t.
We are already seeing that the Labour Party is hugely aware, and very wary of, being seen in any partnership, agreement, call it what you will, arrangement with the SNP. In addition, for Labour to implement their manifesto in England and Scotland, without a mandate from either is, in my view, political suicide for the Labour party.
But, power corrupts and some will seek power in any way they can. All the leaders show the same traits. They will, in the end choose bedfellows at the opposite end of their politics if it means that they might gain power. Cameron would probably work with UKIP. Miliband may work with the SNP. Clegg, or whoever, will work with anybody. Sturgeon will work with anybody but the party that the English will elect – including The Greens, the party that despises the very existence of Scotland’s oil based economy.
A last desperate roll of the dice? Holding Scotland to ransom or holding a gun to their own head like Sheriff Bart in Blazing Saddles? “Nobody move or the Labour Party gets it!”
Did I hear him right? Is Ed Miliband seriously telling Scottish voters there will be no deal of any kind with the SNP? That he would rather let the Tories back in than work with the SNP? Effectively disenfranchising Scotland?
Turns out “Vote SNP, Get The Tories” wasn’t a warning. It was an ultimatum. A threat. “Vote Labour, OR ELSE!” Sheer madness. I honestly don’t know if this is blackmail or suicide. Probably both.
If Labour’s 1983 manifesto was “the longest suicide note in history” then this was one of the shortest. Red Ed? Kamikaze Ed, more like. Labour’s on a suicide mission of self-destruction. It isn’t a party any more, it’s a death cult. And Ed’s just handed out the Kool-Aid.
Is he out of his mind? Miliband has virtually guaranteed a clean sweep in Scotland next week and all but ensured Labour’s extinction. Cos Scotland will never ever forgive or forget this.
This isn’t the final nail in Labour’s coffin it is a stake through the party’s heartlands. A zombie party with a zombie leader. A grotesque shambling travesty of what it once was. A dead parody. It is an ex-party. It has ceased to be. Ed man walking.
What a gift to the SNP. Ed Miliband has just handed Nicola Sturgeon her line of attack for the final days of the campaign. All we’re going to get now on is Labour would rather have another Tory government than work with the SNP!
Sure, Ed probably thinks he’s still left himself some wriggle room, but that’s not how the papers or Scotland will see it. He stumbled badly at the end all right. Straight over the edge of a cliff. He’s jumped the shark and nuked the fridge. It’s the charge of the shite brigade!
Miliband is no longer torn between wooing English Tory voters and holding on to Labour’s Scottish heartlands. Labour has effectively written Scotland off as a lost cause in a futile last-ditch effort to attract English Tories he can never hope to win over. A final act of political hara-kiri.
Cameron must have done cartwheels out of the studio last night. It’s not Alex Salmond’s tune Ed Miliband is dancing to. It’s David Cameron’s. Labour has been dancing to the Tories’ tune for years. Decades. While Cameron’s played Miliband like a cheap banjo since the referendum. And Scotland is SICK of it!
Ed has to be bluffing. And if he is we will NEVER hear the end of it. ED LIED! the Tory tabloids will scream between now and doomsday. LIAR LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!
Labour’s latest Scottish election poster is very apt. While the SNP points forwards, to the future, Labour is pointing backwards, to the past. A desperate party in its death throes indeed. Un-fucking-believable.
Hang on a sec…
Does this mean a “grand coalition” IS on the cards? Certainly looks like it. I can just imagine Ed ‘n’ Dave sharing the same platform (not for the first time!), oozing insincerity and weasel words about putting petty party political differences behind them in this unprecedented time of constitutional crisis (the worst since the abdication!) for the unity of the country. And not just to preserve their power by locking out the smaller parties and cynically frustrating the democratic will of the people, oh no!
Unlikely? I wouldn’t put it past them. “Vote Labour, Get The Tories”? How does Ed imagine that would go down with the voters? You’d think after “Better Together” and Dave’s genius-if-sleekit wee “EVEL” maneuver while the votes were still being counted that Ed would have learned his lesson. Get into bed with the Tories and you WILL get fucked! Just ask Nick Clegg…
Dave, you’re not being very sensible. Just stop it.
Dear Moronic David,
Happy Union Day to all our ("Tractor" - Ed) ProudScotsButs. You have a few more years to celebrate it. I personally think 1st May, and not 24th March, should be the day the Political Union ends, hopefully within half a dozen years at the most. 24th March should be reserved for Republic Day, when an Independent Scotland withdraws from the British Commonwealth with an elected Head of State, thus rendering the 1603 Union null and void.
Stephen.
Sensible Dave: power corrupts and some will seek power in any way they can. All the leaders show the same traits. They will, in the end choose bedfellows at the opposite end of their politics if it means that they might gain power
We were offered the chance of sovereignty regained to empower us – remember? Not to vote once every few years and then that’s it for democracy till next time.
Some decided the responsibility too much to bear. You too?
Ed Miliband said, “We are not going to do a deal with the Scottish National Party; we’re not going to have a coalition, we’re not going to have a deal. Let me just say this to you – if it meant we weren’t going to be in government, not doing a coalition, not having a deal, then so be it. I’m not going to sacrifice the future of our country, the unity of our country.” We should give him credit for putting country before party.
As I recall this proposition of no deals with Labour was put to Alex Salmond a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly he relished the challenge.
As mentioned above it is not the Queen’s speech that will be the problem. Every piece of legislation will have to be scrutinised by parliament and committees and amendments made. That was when he said that the SNP would add an amendment to the H2S proposals that instead of starting in London, it would be started in Edinburgh or Glasgow, run through Newcastle, and proceed south.
Relax. The SNP have been ready for some time. But don’t forget the popcorn.
Dear Billy Peapod,
I’ll say this for Milliped. He really puts the CUNT into country. Let him ramble on. I’ve said this since February. Labour will do a deal, however informal, with the tories to keep the SNP out of power. Good. Not so much another nail in the coffin for the Union and Labour, as pouring petrol over oneself and lighting a fucking match.
As Wendy Alexander used to say, BRING IT ON.
Stephen.
Plodmore: We should give him credit for putting country before party.
You’re at it again, Plodmore.
Which bloody country are you referring to? England did not make a Treaty with itself.
But he did do a deal, no an alliance, or was it a coalition, with David ‘effing tory ‘ Cameron pre / during run up to referendum.
Oops forgot David ‘effing tory ‘ Cameron shafted him the morning after the referendum with EVEL .
Nae wonder he disnae want a coalition.
However politics are all about U turns these days are they no, so plenty time to change his mind post election.
I mean what he said wisnae a ‘Vow ‘ was it, nae worries , Vows count for nothing in Politics these days ….do they.
will p , yer an erse
Dave:
“I’m guessing that the “continuing austerity” parties will gather, probably, around 70/80% of the popular vote – so why should a democratic outcome reflect anything other than that? At the same time, it looks like the SNP will sweep the board in Scotland and win 50 seats representing constituents that have voted for more spending, borrowing and taxing.
No meeting of minds there. How do you square that circle without peeing off loads of people on either side? You can’t.”
The ‘democratic outcome’ will reflect the wishes and votes of all of the people in the UK in this GE in a way that has never happened before.
People, at this GE now have options that were hitherto denied them. They now ‘get it’ that there is no need to ‘conform’ to ‘tradtion’ by voting for the big Two.
And people also get it, that the policies of the big Two, driven as they are by an austerity agenda; that seeks to right the wrongs of the bankers and city spivs who nosedived the economy. By making ordinary citizens pay the price for the obscene and corrupt practices that were unleashed; by the loosening of the regulatory frameworks that protected the economy. No longer trust the big Two party system that has done nothing to remedy the causes and has allowed itself to be infiltrated by a wholly corporate ideaology at the expense of the social welfare of its citizens. This is refelcting itself clearly when we find ourselves in the position we are now in; with the likelihood of a hung parliament.
If there is a clear majority for either Labour (unlikely) or Conservative (less unlikely imv), then your argument that this ‘should reflect that’ makes sense.
Things have changed Dave. We can argue the ‘ins and outs’ of the ‘rights and wrongs’ of the ‘this and the that of it’ all we like. If we are to truly have a represenatative democracy people will have to learn to work with one another.
We, are quite good at that, and yes I do mean those in Scotland. We’ve hud plenty o’ practice been outnumbered before, and yet here we still are…still smiling. Still fair, and still fighting for the word to become the deed.
If it works out that the SNP are marginalised because of the fear that is being promulgated by the msm and blown out of all proportion as ever. Then of course it’s inevitable a new constituttional arrangement will have to be undertaken. Sooner, rather than later.
Let’s just see what happens after the votes are in, shall we?
This time next week, Ed will be backpedaling more furiously than Lance Armstrong!
@ Grouse Beater
Nah, not me me ol’ Grousy Boy. Me, I’m a just a democrat. I want everybody to be happy. The trouble with democracy though, is the bigger the electorate – the more people are disenfranchised after an election.
With less than a week to go, none of us have an idea how this will play out – other than there will be a lot of disenfranchised voters one way or the other. Weve moved from an anti-tory alliance to an anti SNP anything – in no time at all. By next Friday, we may be looking down the barrel of a grand coalition. God save us all!
@ K1 6.21
On the button again K1. I dont think we have quite seen, the changes you refer to, as widely as you suggest though. The three main parties will still hoover up the vast majority of the 27 million odd voters.
Incredibly, and no one saw this coming, the SNP have had the effect of pushing the 3 main parties together to “defend” themselves against the 50 odd block vote coming from Scotland.
Miliband’s comments last night opened the door to the most unlikely scenario possible – a grand coalition – as the only way to block out the SNP! Who would have thought it!
Vote SNP – get the English establishment ganging together as the response? No one will be happy.
Can you imagine it? Cameron and Miliband in the Rose Garden -together as PM and Deputy PM!!! – and all because of 50 odd seats won by the SNP!
Ach well then Dave, they’ll jist huv tae let us go then, won’t they? 🙂
The trouble with democracy though, is the bigger the electorate – the more people are disenfranchised after an election.
More bollocks from Leaden Dave.
@ grousey boy
What’s up grousey? Which part of the statement do you disagree with. Or are you so grousey that you just disagree with everything?
Cheer up!
So the main message the Labour campaign will focus on getting across is: 1. a returned Tory (-lead) government will hit those on lower incomes in the pocket (Child Benefit, etc.) & 2. Labour supported by the SNP isn’t going to work – vote Labour or the Tories will get back in.
Will drumming up fear amongst people about their ecomonic well-being succeed again?
I say, the SNP’s new red line should be;
“We’ll work with Labour but Ed Milliband cannot be Prime Minister”
Let’s put that to everyone, including the rUK press and see what happens…
John Moss:
SNP’s new red line should be: “We’ll work with Labour but Ed Milliband cannot be Prime Minister”
Superb. I’m up for that. 🙂
Grouse beater asks, which country I am referring to. Britain, our country, created by our British working class, the sixth biggest economy in the world, the ninth largest manufacturing nation.
@Will Podmore
Britain isn’t a country. There is a land mass called Great Britain, but within that land mass there are three countries. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland comprises three countries and a province.
Fundamentally, a country/nation should be in charge of its own affairs. That is the basis on which we advocate independence. Everything else is secondary to that.
Yes, a country should indeed be in charge of its own affairs. Britain should run its own affairs.
Yet the SNP wants to be in the EU, which would then run Scotland’s economy and politics. As part of the EU, Scotland would be 2 per cent of the EU’s population, with all the influence that implies.
Currently Scotland is part of a more successful and more democratic Union – you want to throw that away to become a smaller part of a less successful Union.
Plodmore: As part of the EU, Scotland would be 2 per cent of the EU’s population, with all the influence that implies.
And currently Scotland’s influence in the EU is …?
You are incapable of understanding independence makes a nation more confident not smaller. It is England that fears becoming territorially smaller. Why else would you take time to belittle Scotland?
Plodmore: Britain … [meaning England] sixth biggest economy in the world, the ninth largest manufacturing nation.
And it cannot afford free higher education!
Some boast.
Grouse beater, currently Scotland’s influence in the EU is minimal, as it would be if it were there as a separate country.
I have never belittled Scotland. I have never said it couldn’t be separate, only that it shouldn’t, for all our sakes
Actually, of course Britain can afford free higher education. And should do under better government.
Not that the SNP has a better record on adult education. Education body Colleges Scotland points out that there were 238,805 Scottish college students in the academic year 2012-13, down from 347,336 in 2009-10. Over the same period, the hours of learning delivered by colleges fell from 83.4 million to 73.7 million, while staff numbers dropped from 20,686 to 13,761.
In many people’s opinion, including the teaching unions, the SNP’s education reforms, not ‘Westminster’, were responsible for these cuts.
Plodmore: currently Scotland’s influence in the EU is minimal, as it would be if it were there as a separate country.
It is minimal because Westminster makes it so. Face your bigotry.
You keep tossing in new nonsense in an attempt to continue annoying. The further education ‘cuts’ you talk of were initial ones made to jumped up third-rate technical colleges the legacy of opportunistic Thatcher’s era. Money saved was ploughed back into educational institutions worth nurturing. We have a limited budget.
Now please stop posting guff you’ve culled from the Daily Mail by Internet.
Revealing that Grouse Beater defends public spending cuts that destroyed 7,000 teaching jobs and harmed the career chances of 90,000 people.
Does Grouse Beater also support the SNP’s privatisation of rail and ferry services? Or is that all dreamt up by the Daily Mail too?