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Wings Over Scotland

Strong enough is too strong

Posted on April 18, 2014 by

The estimable James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop! wrote an excellent blog post the other day deconstructing a laughably skewed and leading poll which was commissioned by “Better Together” this month.

Blair McDougall’s Beleaguered Billy Boys, as hardly anyone calls them, had loudly and bizarrely trumpeted figures which actually showed a 6% swing to Yes, but that wasn’t the thing we found most interesting in their press release.

“In what is another blow to the SNP, just 35% of those questioned by YouGov on behalf of Better Together backed separation over a stronger Scottish Parliament within the UK.”

The poll question had in fact offered respondents a forced choice between two options: independence or “Scotland remaining part of the UK with increased powers for the Scottish Parliament”. (Which meant, among many other quirks which made the findings nonsensical, that the roughly 10% of people who want Holyrood abolished altogether got lumped in with the “increased powers” side as the least-worst option.)

We’ve already learned what BT mean by “increased powers” – the piddly and trivial ones enshrined by the Scotland Act 2012, rather than any dramatic new settlement from any of the Unionist parties, but the jarring part of the release is the twisting of that already-twisted wording to mean “stronger”.

Because a stronger Scottish Parliament is the LAST thing the No parties want, and you only have to spend a minute thinking about it to figure out why.


In the UK, power lives at Westminster. It’s where the Unionist parties send all their best talent, because it’s where the most important decisions get made, including the size of the Scottish Parliament’s budget. Westminster MPs despise any sort of challenge to their authority – you only have to look at the reaction of Scottish Labour MPs to the Scottish party’s draft devolution proposals from last year to see that.

So in what possible scenario would any of the UK leaders want to do anything that would strengthen the Scottish Parliament? Let’s take a quick tour through the possibilities, because there aren’t many permutations.


– Tory control of Westminster, Tory control of Holyrood

Stop sniggering at the back, there.

– Tory control of Westminster, Labour control of Holyrood

The stronger the Scottish Parliament, the more trouble it can cause London.

– Tory control of Westminster, SNP control of Holyrood

As above, only more so.


– Labour control of Westminster, Labour control of Holyrood

Labour gains nothing here. Any major policy it might want to implement in Scotland, it would be able to implement directly from Westminster.

But because it’s highly unlikely that Labour would command an absolute majority at Holyrood (they’re currently 25 seats short of one even in coalition with the Lib Dems), then the stronger the Scottish Parliament is the more resistance it can put up to Ed Miliband’s “One Nation” policies like reintroducing tuition fees and bringing in means-testing for various benefits.

– Labour control of Westminster, SNP control of Holyrood

An obvious nightmare for Labour. Handing more power to the SNP would be just fashioning a massive rod for its own back. With nails in it.

– Labour control of Westminster, Tory control of Holyrood

Not going to happen. But the same would apply.


Who cares?

Remember, the 2015 UK general election will be conducted against a backdrop of the referendum result already being known. If Scotland has voted No, it has no threats left, no leverage whatsoever that it can bring to bear on Westminster.

All it can do is elect the SNP again in 2016, as all the polls currently suggest will happen. (And a No vote would likely only increase the probability, as Scots sought to protect themselves from Westminster’s wrath.)

So why on Earth would Labour or the Tories make Holyrood any more powerful, knowing that it was likely to be a thorn in their side?

The only rational thing for either of them to do would be the exact opposite, which is why Labour have already laid a trap in the form of devolution plans which would impose more responsibilities, more bureaucracy and more costs on the Scottish Government, for no practical gain.

The UK doesn’t want to go through a trauma like the independence referendum again for generations. Only a madman would believe that having won the bitterly-fought duel, via every dirty trick in the book, it would hand its opponent a bigger gun.

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132 to “Strong enough is too strong”

  1. Alan Mackintosh says:

    As ever, an incisive dissection of yet more misinformation cutting straight to the point.

    Has there been any sign of the “missing” poll you mentioned aweek or so ago?

  2. As Derek Bateman said a few weeks ago, the only way the No side can win is with David Cameron scrapping the better together campaign, apologising for all the smears and threats, and setting out how he will aceed to all our wishes by enshrining in law, these requests before we vote in the referendum. Aye, right.

  3. uilleam_beag says:

    That’s about the long & the short of it.

    The only scenario I can envisage that brings the vague possibility of further powers being “bestowed” on Holyrood would be if Labour were in power both in Westminster and Holyrood, but likely to lose the Big Boy parliamidge to the Tories, thus seeing it as an insurance. Alternatively, if they were in coalition with the LibDems and further devo had been a stipulation in that agreement.

    I have no faith at all that any meaningful reform would get passed, even under either circumstance.

  4. Juteman says:

    This needs to be spread far and wide on old fashioned paper and ink.

  5. Thepnr says:

    Apologies Rev for posting O/T so soon but I would like as many people as possible to see the post just put up on the last thread.

    O/T A wee update on the Wings Big Night Out(R)in Dundee 9th May.

    Have listened to various voices re cost of drinks, mingling with joe public ect so have spoken with the manager of Jolly’s Hotel in Broughty Ferry. This is a Weatherspoons pub that just recently reopened at the start of this month.

    There are 25 bedrooms too at reasonable prices, I did ask for a deal but the manager answered “our prices are quite fair” but anyway it’s an option for those who may want to stay over.

    This is not in Dundee city centre but only 10 mins in a taxi, more like the West end of Glasgow. A popular area for a night out in Dundee. They will be happy to host us on 9th May although he wouldn’t reserve an area for our soul use.

    He did show me where we could be accommodated and it is ideal for maybe up to 60 people.

    I’ll put more info re getting there for folk from out of town over in Off Topic. Hope to see you there.

  6. Andy Nimmo says:

    Don’t discount UKIP. If as seems likely in 2015 the gap between Labour and Conservative will be negligible the predicted result is one of two Labour/Lib Dem Coalition – ain’t gonna happen according to the Labour Big Shots or Conservative/UKIP Coalition – Bookies Favourite.
    Your worst nightmare is about to come to life unless you Vote Yes.

  7. john b says:

    Does anyone know if UKIP has a policy on Holyrood? I vaguely remember that they wanted to scrap it a while back and wonder if that is still their policy. I only ask, because at present it looks as though UKIP may be a coalition partner for someone (Milliband?) after the next UK GE and wouldn’t that be an interesting combination? Just as Clegg had to ditch LibDem policy on student fees down south, so too Milliband might have to ditch any thought of increased powers to Holyrood in order to have a deal with Farage.

    And before you dismiss this as stupid nonsense, look at the polling figures and discussion on UKPR.

    By the way, latest YouGuv figures have SNP ahead of Labour by one point – not much, I’d agree, but if the figures were a real vote, Labour would lose around 11 seats, I think, and the SNP would gain 8.

  8. CameronB says:

    But, but, but isn’t the level of economic activity a country achieves, relative to the level of activity within the national parliament?

    @ Sarah Boyack
    Got any comment?

  9. Les Wilson says:

    All we have to remember ALL of the Unionist parties have NO intention of giving Scotland anything real.
    The idolise Westminster, they need it for their own aspirations. Scotland is a irritating midge in their ear that they are trying to shake out.

    They will promise ANYTHING, they will do the reverse. Power will gradually be stripped from Holyrood which will end up not being anything worth keeping. Then they will close it, not right away, they are sneakier than that, but in my view the ONLY way they can blunt discontent is to remove the midge.

  10. Papadox says:

    Westminster has absolutely no intention of strengthening Holyrood as they would loose to much control and the people of Scotland would see the charade they have been living with. If they were allowed to compare how Scotland was performing relative to the English regions outside London and SE would cause big trouble for the establishment.

    The deceit and fraud of London would be exposed not just to the Scots but also to everywhere outside of London and the Home Counties and the game would well and truly be exposed for the conn it is.

    The one guarantee that would become obvious is that Westminster/London will look after themselves at the cost of everyone else and without regard for anyone else. They ar’nt going to open that up for all to see and cut their own throat.

    Hence no third option (the safest bet for HMG) they are hoping to scare the Sots into voting no, thus they can keep the charade going whilst they rig the laws so we don’t get a second bight at the cherry and they can keep on milking the system for all it’s worth.

  11. James Forrest says:

    Wee shameless repost of this piece from earlier.

    Thanks for all the kind words.

  12. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What’s the score with the CBI?

    Something fishy about this. You wouldn’t expect anyone to walk the plank voluntarily, but that’s what they seem to be doing. They’ve already had two companies abandon them before the close of business today, and we can only guess how many will follow suit on Tuesday.

    Come on Ivan McKee – whit’s afoot here?

  13. the Penman says:

    With UKIP, they’re serious about the “U”.

  14. rab_the_doubter says:

    John b,
    RE UKIP Policy, I think this pretty much covers it:

    Do Scotland a favour, show UKIP the way home.

  15. Anyone that believes Scotland will get more powers after a No please give me a shout because I’ve got this Nigerian contact that has a cracking offer that’s just right for you.

  16. Dennis Smith says:

    @ john B at 5.01

    I’m no authority on UKIP but I believe that, as of now, UKIP has no fixed policies on Holyrood or anything else. All past policies are under review and new policies won’t be announced until after the European elections. New policies will magically appear before the UK general election next May. Whether UKIP will announce any policies on anything before 18 Sept. is anyone’s guess.

  17. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Ian Brotherhood, Gordon Mc-Kemp has good article on it over at Bus for Scot. Different take on it from EBC. Apparently they had been pushing electoral commission to make them register. Didnt hear Douglas Fraser mentioning that

  18. andrew>reid says:

    Labour’s “cunning plan” – likely to be adopted, I think, by the anti-independence allianc – involves a honey trap, which they are already dishonestly describing as “devo-max”, and which they will say gives people in Scotland what they want in terms of radical new devolution. It will in fact only involve further partial income tax devolution and in total amount to Scottish Parliament control of only one third of Scottish taxes. The trap is that income tax is actually considered to be the most toxic form of revenue within the UK – stealth taxes are so much more politically convenient – so the Westminster parties will be happy to see more of it devolved. The bonus for the Westminster honeypot conspirators is that they believe they will get much increased opportunities to redefine Westminster welfare state destruction as ‘SNP cuts’ – we have already witnessed the strategy tried out in relation to the bedroom tax – and what we will hear repeatedly in future will be, “Well, the SNP has the power over income tax, and if it doesn’t like these Westminster savings, then it has the fiscal powers to deal with them” – a honeypot offer to referendum voters of greater devolution, and a trap for any future Scottish government.

  19. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I think next month’s European elections will be a massive kick up the earse of Cameron, Milliband and Clegg. As things stand I understand most of the pundits are talking about large gains for UKIP in England. No doubt ties into this is the idea that UKIP will gain more M.E.P.’s. This is the worst possible scenario for Cameron, Milliband and Clegg. They all *ahem* claim to be pro European to differing degrees but a rise in UKIP M.E.P.’s will send shivers down their collective spineless back.

    Although UKIP have never won a seat at Westminster, yet, I have a sneaky suspicion that with a good or excellent result in May then we could very well see our first UKIP M.P.’s next year. This, tied to an increase in M.E.P.’s can only point to one result in Cameron’s *ahem* promised referendum on E.U. membership in 2017, a vote to leave.

    As one of the monotonous arguments for stay part of this broken union is that we are part of the E.U. I think any significant rise in UKIP support will be seen as an early indication that in 2017 the “promised” referendum will result in a vote to leave the E.U. Due to the majority of businesses in Scotland apparently not wanting to leave the E.U. I think we could well see these businesses looking at Scottish independence as the only definite way to secure E.U.membership and hence those who are dithering about voting YES will finally start to move over to supporting YES.

    Whilst I know the majority of Scots want nothing to do with UKIP from my own selfish, I want independence, viewpoint I hope UKIP do well. If they do then watching the fall out down South from Cameron, Milliband and Clegg could be quite entertaining.

    I believe that the 2015 General Election will result in another coalition government. The problem is identifying which colour. I do not believe Labour will gain power but the government will be a Tory led one either with the LibDems, possible but unlikely in my view,or more likely with UKIP unbelievable as that sounds at present.

  20. Brotyboy says:


    A friend’s son is doing an internship at Brussels and passed Nigel Farage in the corridor the day after his TV debate with Nick Clegg. He was on the phone.

    ‘Did you hear what he was saying?’

    ‘Yeah, he was saying Nick Clegg is a bastard.’

  21. Cactus says:

    SCOTLAND ~ Made from girders.

    (‘Girder’ noun: a large iron or steel beam or compound structure used for building bridges in Scotland and the framework of large buildings).

  22. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    DECeivO Max

  23. Marcia says:

    Alan Mackintosh

    I wonder when it will be that the BBC will be forced to register as part of the No campaign.

  24. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Alan Mackintosh –

    Cheers for that. This jumped out:

    ‘CBI Scotland council member Anthony Rush has admitted, when considering whether the CBI only has 100 members in Scotland that he does “not know where the true number of Scottish companies lies.”’

    Which begs the question – if this ‘organisation’ doesn’t even know how many members it has, why on earth would any self-respecting business want to have anything to do with it?

  25. Andy-B says:

    Very true Rev, a no vote would see Westminster,covertly incapacitate Holyrood at every turn possible, why oh why would anyone vote no, and allow this to happen.

    I’m going to be positive and say a yes vote will prevail and the SNP will be returned in 2016, then they’ll impliment their social justice policies, and put Scotland on the right path.

    Any other outcome is just unthinkable.


    I see David Cameron has said the Trussell Trust are exaggerating their figures when it come to the amount of people who depend on food banks,to feed themselves and their children, Trussell Trust have said over the whole of the UK they’ve helped feed over 1 million people.

    If anything the problem is much worse, as the Trussell Trust only make up 37% of food banks across the UK, they don’t account for the small local community food banks set up by concerned and caring citizens.

    This attitude towards, the Trust by the Tories really does beggar belief, is it self-denial by the Tories,or just complete and utter contempt for the hungry.

  26. Breeks says:

    Don’t underestimate the shock factor too. A whole bunch of these unionists were banking on Devolution slaking the thirst for independence. In a few short years, so few years in fact it might be legitimately described as all practicable speed, it has brought us to the brink of a YES/NO vote on full sovereign independence. Rip Van Winkle would wake up and say “WTF??? How have things moved so quickly?”. Be in no doubt, if we don’t nail that YES vote in September, the Westminster goblins will find the means to hole our boats so thoroughly that we can never get to this position again.
    If you have any doubts about that, just look at the devolved powers over renewable energy being autocratically taken back by Westminster. It won’t be easy to emasculate Scotland’s parliament, but they will do it.

  27. Croompenstein says:

    Come on Ivan McKee – whit’s afoot here?

    I was saying this earlier, a couple of months ago Ivan was becoming the poster boy for Yes but haven’t seen or heard him on any MSM lately. He may be busy right enough but they probably haven’t asked him back on as he was kicking their arses and owning them.

  28. Famous15 says:

    Your reward for voting NO will be power over air guns.You will also get more responsibilities,more beaurocracy and more costs but not a penny more from the UK Treasury. NO NEW Money however hard you graft.

    Who would want this?

  29. Jim T says:

    @Marcia 6:19pm

    Now there’s a thought. I wonder how much traction that proposal could gain 🙂

    Another petition needed maybe?

  30. ronnie anderson says:

    CBI Scotland, the wheels coming aff their bus,2 companies

    resign because they registered with the Electorial

    Commission as NO campainers. Stv news.

  31. ronnie anderson says:

    Aqua Marine power & Balhousie Care home Group

    democresy in action walk away when your not consulted

    well done to those GCOs, CMon people hit the Emails tae

    those companys, they need congratulations.

  32. Les Wilson says:

    O/T Here is an article from Moneyweek, they are of course touting you to buy their rag but before that, it does give a deep assessment of the UK finances, they are worse than you imagine. One might wonder just why we would want to be pulled down with them in a Sterling area. Make your own mind up, as always, but give it a read.

  33. call me dave says:

    The body representing electrical contractors has urged the CBI to think again about giving its support to the campaign against Scottish independence.

    Select has written an open letter to the CBI Scotland boss.

    The CBI has registered with the Electoral Commission as a backer of the pro-Union campaign.

    The registration as a non-party participant allows it to spend up to £150,000 on campaigning during the regulated period.

    That runs from 30 May until the 18 September referendum day.

    The CBI is the leading body in the UK representing large employers.

    In its letter about the decision to register as a supporter of the campaign against a Yes vote, Select said: “In taking this action you do not reflect our views”.

    Select reminds the CBI that it represents 1250 companies, employing 15,000 electricians.

    “The owners of our member companies and their employees, like the rest of the Scottish population, cover the full range of political affiliations,” the letter states. “We are agreed that the way in which each and every person associated with Select votes is a matter for them alone.”

  34. Wp says:

    Dave Beverage, brilliant, can I use that in the scotsman ?

  35. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Call me dave-

    As Bus. for Scot and Select both have well over a 1000 members in Scotland, and CBI might have 100, but they’re not sure, then they dont really represent much in Scotland. Quite amusing to see them being hit with many sticks, and more to come I would guess

  36. Dan Huil says:

    Re: CBI Good work from Business for Scotland.
    The experience of some businesses in Scotland being misrepresented mirrors many trade union members being misrepresented by their union leaders.
    It would make a powerful statement to everyone in Scotland if businessmen and trade unionists were to come together to make a joint statement about being linked with the No campaign against their wishes.

  37. G. Campbell says:

    ronnie anderson said:

    “CBI Scotland, the wheels coming aff their bus, 2 companies resign because they registered with the Electorial Commission as NO campainers. Stv news.”

    Saw that. No mention if this bloke will be resigning, though.

    George Watt
    Chief Financial Officer at STV Group
    CBI Scotland Council Member at CBI Scotland

  38. ronnie anderson says:

    @G Campbell,Lets hope theres more & more as this story gets more attention.

  39. call me dave says:

    Footie tonight link in: off-topic

  40. BuckieBraes says:

    Of course, the unionist parties know fine that what is written above is true. They are relying upon a poorly-informed electorate voting No, having falling for the ‘stronger/more powers’ myth.

    What they don’t seem to be thinking about is what could happen next. A No vote, followed by Westminster inevitably failing to deliver any significant enhancements to devolution (because hardly any were promised in the first place), would surely result in a constitutional crisis for the UK upon Scotland’s awakening to the betrayal.

    But no; they are not bright enough to register how much damage the tactics of ‘Better Together’ are actually inflicting upon their supposedly cherished Union. All they want is to stop our independence by whatever deceitful means they can employ.

    Well, hell mend them. If the people of Scotland are foolish enough to vote No and then wake up to the fact London has pulled the wool over their eyes yet again, they won’t take to the streets; but we can look forward to several years more of an increasingly sour relationship with the rest of the UK.

    Vote Yes, and get it over and done with!

  41. rab_the_doubter says:

    Andy B
    I don’t think there will be anything ‘Covert’ about the shafting we’ll get from Westminster.

  42. goldenayr says:

    Who cares?Glaschu are humping Ulster.

  43. Clootie says:

    Great article Stu.

    It is so obvious when laid out like that why stronger powers at Holyrood will not be supported by BT parties.

    Thank you.

  44. Croompenstein says:

    Did anyone see that Ade at Sea last night, Ade Edmondson he is sailing round Great Britain. Last night he was on the isle of Eigg do you know oor wee country is absolutely beautiful. Mind you he kept pronouncing Mallaig as MaLeg

  45. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    In the opening to this thread,
    Rev. Stuart Campbell typed,
    In the UK, power lives at Westminster.

    I think this clip proves that statement…

  46. awayanbileyerheed says:

    @ John B
    Spot on! and with the link from rab_the_doubter:
    The one thing people NEED to know is that if there were ever to be a ‘No’ vote, it looks increasingly VERY likely that a UKIP/Tory coalition would be in force DISMANTLING THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT (according to the UKIP policy in the article linked above)- The Scottish people NEED to know this – The ONLY vote FOR the people of Scotland is a YES vote!

  47. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Can’t wait to see the Sunday papers’ take on all this CBI stuff – no-one knows what their membership number is, but we all know which way it’s heading.

    Bye-bye CBI, Scotland Branch…now, let’s have a wee think – what other great institutions with ‘British’ in their titles must be touching-cloth? Ehm, err, well…

  48. Capella says:

    re the BBC registering as a No campaigner – just noticed another 2 Brit progs, British Gardens in Time and Britpop (with Union Jack guitar).
    This in addition to the Great British Bake Off, Rail Journeys, Menus, Sewing Bee etc and, of course, every news broadcast. Does anyone know if our Continental cousins are equally chauvinistic?

  49. Alba4Eva says:

    OT. I’m actually quite liking the Games postage stamps…

  50. Mealer says:

    I consider myself to be a man of open mind.So here’s my top priorities.In no particular order.
    Close gap between rich and poor
    End child poverty
    Close the gender gap
    Abolish House of Lords
    Scrap trident.
    If that’s on offer from the London based parties,I might vote for the continuation of this union.But I’ll need timescales and cast iron guarantees.From all three party leaders.Tory,Labour and LIbdem.On camera.Signed on the green in front of the House of Commons..Witnessed by the queen and the Secretary General of the UN.
    Not do able? The electorate down South won’t wear it? Fair enough.Why should the tail wag the dog? So give me your best offer.Airgun control won’t cut it.

  51. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I’m sure this was linked in a previous thread, but for those who haven’t seen who’s in charge of the CBI in Scotland, here’s a wee snippet of Iain McMillan at the Scottish Parliament Committee a fortnight ago:

  52. Alba4Eva says:

    Mealer. I never understood the Airgun thingy. Last time I even saw an Airgun was when I was a kid about 25 years ago. Certainly its not something I wake up thinking about.

  53. kininvie says:


    Ivan drove up to Ullapool and back for a Yes event this week. He was also speaking at another Yes event over in the east somewhere (forget where)

    He does have a business to run too!

  54. Ivan McKee says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood 5:29

    CBI decision does look a bit insane, just opens them up for scrutiny as to membership numbers and the lack of process to poll members.

    They are going to get some resignations which more than offsets any perceived advantage to the No campaign of them coming out for No I think.

    Could be they want to access additional campaign spend limits, but there are easier ways to do that than this.

    Doesn’t make a lot of sense as far as I can see. Probably just them being arrogant and thinking they are untouchable and people listen to them.

  55. Croompenstein says:

    @Mealer – Totally agree with your top priorities and if that makes me a nationalist then so be it. That is the shite they try and label us and diminish us for wanting the best, and what’s right, for our country. Can you hear us Flipper OUR COUNTRY

  56. Ivan McKee says:

    @ Croompenstein 6:37

    Re- Media. I’m always available. Doing 3 or 4 speaking events a week at the moment (Islay, Ullapool and Dunbar in the past week) but still got lots of time for TV or radio when asked.

    Unfortunately had some internal organisational changes on the media front that have set up back a bit with requests for appearances drying up. Hope to have ‘normal service’ resumed as soon as possible 🙂

  57. Ian Brotherhood says:

    …and another one for those who missed it – Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp vs John Cridland, on GMS, approx three weeks ago:

  58. Krackerman says:

    Sorry for me number one after Independence – remove the royals.

    No-one can build free society of equals with a Monarchy in the picture.

  59. Croompenstein says:

    @kininvie – Yeh Ivan is doing a fantastic job for the Yes campaign I was just wondering why he hadn’t been on MSM but probably because he is so effective at downing the Project Fear distortions. Wonder if Ade Edmondson pronounces it Yewlapool?

  60. Croompenstein says:

    @Ivan – Well done Ivan don’t know how you fit it all in with running your own business but I can assure you it is immeasurably appreciated.

  61. Ivan McKee says:

    @ Croompenstein


  62. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ivan McKee –

    ‘CBI decision does look a bit insane, just opens them up for scrutiny as to membership numbers and the lack of process to poll members.’


    ‘A bit insane.’

    Ha! Love it. You have a gift for understatement.

    Given that Rev’s getting his feet up this week-end, why don’t we do something productive e.g. identify whatever CBI Scotland member organisations seem likeliest to be troubled by this CBI decision, and press them to state their position in time for the Sunday MSM?

    It can’t be that difficult to find out which universities and quangos are CBI Scotland members…can it?

    Then again, perhaps we needn’t bother – anyone with more than a passing interest in this whole referendum palaver knows that WOS has more readers than most of the newspapers anyway, so they’d be as well just telling us all about it right here…all the journos read WOS, so it’d save them time e-mailing all the broadcasters etc.

    I’ve a fresh tenner here says that at least one CBI Scotland member will choose to declare their displeasure via this site (and/or Rev’s Twitter) before tomorrow 6 p.m. If none does then I’ll stick on another £20 for the Yes vote being over 55%, and add that to Ronnie’s Raffle pot.

    If any CBI member does declare (via WOS) that they’re cancelling their membership as a direct result of today’s announcement, who’s up for sticking some dosh on the same bet? Either way, more dosh is getting punted on a Yes win, and we could well be under 2/1 by the end of next week.

    It’s been a good Friday right enough…

  63. X_Sticks says:

    Gratitude and respect to you Ivan McKee.

    What a fantastic job you and the rest of Business for Scotland are doing for the country.

    I’m away painting more Yes signs to decorate West Aberdeenshire tomorrow 😀

  64. Alba4Eva says:

    I suggest the next BBC studio panel, with Ivan, Stu, Salmond and Carmichael?


  65. Croompenstein says:

    @Ian – Unfortunately the normal Sunday doom and gloom isn’t on this week as it’s Easter so they are getting a free ride, dunno if you caught Disreporting Scotland tonight but Sally informed us through gritted teeth about the two(bastards) companies who have withdrawn from the CBI, if it had been the other way round it would have been trumpeted as headline

  66. heedtracker says:

    No monarchy? But they have a magic baby prince now. This is great, especially con man Alexander

  67. twenty14 says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood – a tenner on the ” raffle to end all raffles ” on any legit declaration of displeasure or cancellation to the CBI from current members.

    A thought for a future crowdfund after our YES win – bonfires to be lit on every mountain at the stroke of midnight on Independence day to be seen from every part of our Independent Country

  68. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Croompenstein –

    I didn’t see it, an am astonisshed that they mentioned it at all.

    Way things are looking, she might be reading out more names next week. But then again…

    Just had a shuftie at the CBI website, hoping to find a list of member companies. Couldn’t find one, but there was an e-mail address:

    (So, I’ll try that – perhaps that’s the person who knows what the membership is?)

  69. tartanfever says:

    Well done Ivan, Gordon and the rest over at Business for Scotland.

    What we have to look out for now is the next time the CBI, either the GB or Scottish branch appear on any media show, be that radio, newspaper or tv news, they should be introduced as ‘members of the No campaign’ if they are being questioned about Scottish Independence.

    They are not an independent or impartial group anymore.

    If you come across any report that does not carry this information about the CBI’s ‘No’ credentials, you should complain to the media outlet providing the platform and also to the Electoral Commission. Take a note of the time, date, programme, participants and how the CBI have been introduced by the presenter.

    We still have a month to go until the four month official referendum period kicks in when the Electoral Commission will start monitoring proceedings properly, so for the next few weeks I’m sure all the misleading tripe we’ve witnessed will increase.

  70. Croompenstein says:

    O/T – This is the real monstering and vile attack in this debate..somebody needs to show this to Flipper, any one with nervous disposition or easily offended look away now..

  71. Ian Brotherhood says:


    ‘an am astonisshed’

    Apologies for slurring. (Am I pished already? Gordon Bennett, it seems so!)

  72. mato21 says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    From Jan 2011 an article by Calum Cashley about CBI listing members

  73. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Croompenstein –

    Thanks for that link. I haven’t seen it before. Interesting that so many different ‘characters’ share such a small vocabulary.

    It’s just a Tourette’s version of the official BT campaign, but is every bit as boring.

  74. caz-m says:

    This is a video made by Yew Choob about the Wings posters getting pulled from the Glasgow Underground, Brill.

  75. Croompenstein says:

    @Ian – I know it is utter shite but let’s us see what is out there, I get criticised for having a wee swear on here but FFS that lot take the biscuit

  76. Grouse Beater says:

    Clarkson got his hit at the SNP in the last seconds of HIGNoodlesFY.

  77. caz-m says:

    It said in the BBC statement today about the CBI that they can spend up to £150,000 during the official referendum campaign.

    If Wings wanted to, it could raise that amount in a few hours.

  78. TJenny says:

    caz-m – That wee vid was absolutely FAB. 🙂 Has the Rev seen it? Have you tweeted it to him yet?

  79. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Croompenstein –

    Agreed. We should be aware of it.

    So should the Police.

  80. David Agnew says:

    What I find so extraordinary about the so called campaign for the Union, is how utterly miserable it is. Dour faced, miserable bastards to a man. In many ways it explains the underlying message of the campaign. dependency and handouts as the boon of union. Only a dreary nabob with no imagination or hope for the future would be proud of that. Problem is, this message has been increasingly picked up by the English media as saying:

    “Everyone who votes yes, hates the English. Everyone one who votes no is a scrounger. Bettertogether”

    They have made it impossible for Scotland to fit comfortably into the union. They seem determined that the future of Scotland is to be permanently walking into the wind. Their Commander in Chief Mr Darling; his mono-brow twitching so furiously that it resembles a giant caterpillar trying to devour his face, declares with eyes forever blinking that is doom for Scotland if it votes yes.

    Darling – a Man with a neck and balls of Solid brass, told Scotland that his utter failure to protect us from the failure of banking was a positive case for union.

    Rennie – A blethering fool who proclaimed that the Bedroom tax would be an aid to social mobility.

    Davidson – A silly woman who declared that nearly 9 out 10 households in Scotland contributed nothing to the UK.

    Lamont – Who declared nationalism a virus, while standing in front of a party banner that read, one party. one nation.

    Osborne – who dismissed 300 years of Union as nothing more than English charity.

    A more useless shower of bastards, you’d be hard put to find. Is it any wonder that Unionists are the most miserable fuckers in the room?

    Rant over. Going to bed.

  81. caz-m says:


    I am not on twitter, I will give you the pleasure of sending it on to Stu.

  82. Flower of Scotland says:

    The Yew Choob video is so good I’ve put it on my home screen on my ipad to show as many people as possible. It’s Fab! Thanks caz-m!

  83. TJenny says:

    David Agnew – take a deep breath……..
    and breathe out slowly. There, now have a lovely sleep and sweet dreams. (Of a resounding YES vote). : D

  84. TJenny says:

    caz-m – neither am I. 🙁

    I’ve emailed the link to friends though, but I think Stu would appreciate it. Any WOSers present who tweet?

  85. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @caz-m, T Jenny –



    No doubt he’ll know soon enough. Must’ve been a lot of work went into that – I thought I was a Wings regular, but will have to watch that again and again to catch the Cairns cartoons I managed to miss whenever they first appeared here.


  86. TJenny says:

    Rev – if you’re around and as there appear to be no tweeters currently on this thread, give yourself a wee treat and have a look at the video linked in caz-m’s post @ 11.15pm above. I’m sure you’ll appreciate it. 🙂

  87. caz-m says:

    Here’s another jingle from Yew Choob “London’s Calling”,

    It’s a right wee toe tapper.

  88. TJenny says:

    caz-m – that was great too. Do you know the folk behind these vids? As they are obvs WOSers, will you and they be coming along to the ‘Jolly in the Ferry’ on the 9 May too?

  89. caz-m says:


    I wouldn’t miss the Jolly for all the tea in China.

  90. TJenny says:

    caz-m – supa – did we meet at the Counting House and I’ve forgotten? If so, apols, if not, look forward to meeting you on the 9th. 🙂

  91. caz-m says:


    What Ferry is the Jolly on Jenny???

  92. TJenny says:

    caz-m – hee, hee – did say ‘in’, but on the 9th, it’ll be WOS in the Ferry. 🙂

  93. caz-m says:


    Am confused, is the Jolly on a Ferry or in a Ferry???

  94. TJenny says:

    caz-m – if you’re going, you need to know it’s in Broughty Ferry, (for more info see ‘Off – Topic page) which I believe, in the vernacular, is known as ‘the Ferry’, although I may be wrong as I’m from Edinburgh. 🙂

  95. caz-m says:

    Here is the very first video of Jock Scott, the man behind Yew Choob.

    And going by this video, he would definitely qualify as a winger,

    And am sure if you ask Mr Scott nicely, he would be only to glad to do a turn for you at your Jolly on the Ferry.

  96. Thepnr says:

    Glad to hear it TJenny.

    Was out tonight and wearing my heart on my sleeve. Amazing!

    Yes in in the head of those not often heard.

    Mr Cameron, Mr Darling, listen to me. The people that you wish to assimilate are deaf to your message.

    Your Fucked. hahaha

    Get over it.

  97. caz-m says:


    That sounds like a good night to me. I think I’ll come through. Would need to book in somewhere for the night,

  98. caz-m says:


    How about trying to book Yew Choob for the Ferry.

  99. TJenny says:

    caz-m – it’s an open invitation to all WOSers, so if Yew Choob is a WOSer he’ll know he’ll be welcomed with open arms. 🙂

  100. Patrician says:

    Anyone else watch Googlebox on Channel 4 tonight. Well, it finally happened in my house, a slipper was thrown at the TV during a piece about independence but strangely it wasn’t by me. It was done by my not very interested in the referendum wife, after someone said as part of a piece on Alec Salmond, “well we let them have their own parliament”. The language in our living room would have made a docker blush, the only repeatable things words from the torrent were, “the arrogant *****, how **** kind of you, you ****, ****, **** ignorant ****.” My wife has always been a yes but she is not very much interested in the politics but tonight really wound her up. I wonder in how many homes in Scotland this was repeated.

  101. TJenny says:

    Patrician – glad to hear Channel 4 are doing their bit to engage the women’s vote. 🙂

  102. call me dave says:

    Labour peer Robertson says No to Scotland but Yes to Russia in NATO. He hasn’t learned to stop digging.

    NNS running a new story on Georgie boy, who says ,about Russia joining NATO…

    “Whether under the present or a future leadership, because the previous leadership, when Mr Putin was first president, believed in exactly that objective. And that’s what we’ve got to aim for.”

  103. Greannach says:

    O/T But if we need an anthem, we should go for Pharrell Williams – ‘Happy’. It encapsulates what we’re aiming for. CAnd it’s HAPPY!

  104. Onwards says:

    I saw that when flicking channels.. wondering why they were showing the conference speech again.
    Then it goes to 5 minutes of ridicule and ignorance.

    I remember reading that show is pretty much scripted also.

  105. ronnie anderson says:

    @Caz-m,watched the 1st 2 vids brilliant 3rd wan at 12.57

    thats You isent it, absolute deed brilliant NUTTER,wha

    said Scots are dour,look forward to meeting You again at

    Dundee bash.

  106. Broadsea83 says:

    This little gem was passed as acceptable by the admin on the Scotsman comments section on the CBI story.

    “Nascis Tyrannus
    8:52 PM on 18/04/2014
    I’m starting up a business with cheap train tickets for Nationalists post 19th September.

    Unfortunately they are cattle trucks but I can take them anywhere in the European landmass to any place they need to go.

    After all – their hatred of the UK by then will have reach boiling point and we can offer them some place in Crimea with the rest of the Separatists.”

    There is nothing much I can add really..Stunned.

  107. john king says:

    Croompenstien says
    “O/T – This is the real monstering and vile attack in this debate..somebody needs to show this to Flipper, any one with nervous disposition or easily offended look away now..”

    What I’m noticing is some of the nastiest comments are from young females, if they were my daughters they would be grounded for ever, seriously, this sort of vile attack should not require the victim to complain (which he wont) the police can surely monitor facebook and visit these clowns with a stern warning that a next visit will result in their arrest!

  108. caz-m says:

    Mornin Ronnie Anderson

    I can assure you that caz-m isn’t Jock Scott from Yew Choob.

    But a will agree with you about one thing, he is a NUTTER, in a good way.

    He does make some right good tunes and mixed with the graphics, they are very catchy with a strong message.

    So maybe somebody can give him a shout and let him know that he is the subject of great debate on Wings.

  109. TheItalianJob says:

    @John King

    Awful, abusive and pathetic comments.

    Don’t know how many follow this twiiter account. I hope to god that these people can’t or won’t vote because if they vote based on these purile comments then there is no hope for us.

    PS I also hope a lot of these people don’t live in Scotland and can’t vote anyway.

  110. caz-m says:


    Here is Yew Choob’s version of Underground again,
    it’s about the Wings posters being withdrawn from the Glasgow Underground.

  111. Thepnr says:


    How gifted are we? that is just brilliant.

  112. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ caz-m – Now that made me smile this sunny morning. Loved the Caledonian Rhapsody video as well. I am going back for more.

  113. Thepnr says:

    @Archie [not Erchie]

    I’ve ordered that book. “F**k It” sounds good to me.

    This is why we’ll win from last night in Clydebank, watch to the end. BT can’t beat this.

  114. Croompenstein says:

    Nice one to get the blood going on a fine Saturday morning..

  115. Ninja Penguin says:


    I’m a long-time lurker on WOS, never commented before. I write the lyrics for most of the Yew Choob songs and my pal Jock Scot sings them and makes the videos. We use mostly karaoke backing tracks for the music as we don’t have any musicians.

    @ronnie anderson

    I love your comments! You always brighten my day so I’m glad you like our videos. If you’re going to be at the Dundee bash I’ll do my best to get there and meet you.

  116. Croompenstein says:

    And then there’s this…

  117. RogueCoder says:


    I’ve been doing laps of YT for the past couple of months and gotten to know most of the trolls. They’re easy to beat as they all read from the same flawed BT playbook. A few are just totally delusional and it’s a piece of pish to goad them into posting something offensive and/or racist. Once their limited understanding of the issues fails the arguments, they always resort to personal attacks.

    Any observer looking at the comments will see patient, reasoned arguments from the Yes camp, and really crude nasty comments from No.

    It only takes a few minutes of the day and it’s entertaining to whack a troll back into its cave, or watch them tear up the place with bile and hatred 🙂

    It’s a sport, of sorts 😀

  118. CameronB says:

    Just had a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses at the door. I was happy to chat as it gave me the opportunity to turn everything they said into support for YES. I didn’t take any literature but they both left promising to vote YES. I also asked them to pass the message on to their congregation. I can but hope. 🙂

  119. Croompenstein says:

    @RogueCoder – You must have the patience of a saint 🙂 more power to your keyboard.

  120. caz-m says:

    Ninja Penguin and Jock Scott,

    Keep up the great work and please keep Wings up to date with any new projects you have done.

    I suppose we are all doing our bit in different ways.

    We are winning this battle.

    And we will be victorious on 18th Sept.

  121. Gin says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood 10:33

    While CBI surely do know how many members they have it appears quite clear (having done a little google research) that this number would be orders of magnitude short of the 24,000 Scottish Businesses it claims to speak for.

    The CBI UK site says “The CBI lobbies policymakers on behalf of more than 240,000 businesses”. How strange that is 10 times the claimed Scottish number 🙂

    The difference appears to come from the fact that thay have a number of “Trade Body” Members, such as the SELECT group which has questioned the CBI registration by letter. From BBC site today: Select reminds the CBI that it represents 1250 companies

    So now it becomes clear the deliberate mis-representation is achieved by laying claim to all the affilated companies to any Member !

    The equivelent claim might be that Barroso speaks for all 500 million EU citizens.

    I like the idea of collating a list of the stated positions of those CBI Scotland members which we can identify, as I came accross a comment on a Pilots Forum indicating someone with personal knowledge thought that upto 40% on those named on the CBI Scotland Council might be pro-indy.

    Wings Readers did it for Train Station Leaflet numbers – can we hold CBI members to account also ?

  122. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood: “about CBI”.
    I’m going back a long way but an SG insider told me the Scottish Government were CBI members.

  123. ronnie anderson says:

    @Ninja Penquin,Ah ma wee Ninja pal’s, is there any things

    you,s canny dey, hows the Wee Blue Ninjamobile, any time

    you,s need funds send Kev/Kes over there,s a £100 here fur

    you,s anytime jist ask.all ma Luv tae Scottish Mutant Ninja


  124. Ninja Penguin says:

    @ronnie anderson

    I’m not actually one of the Ninja Turtles – the name’s just a weird coincidence (long story). Jock knows them though so I’ll ask him to pass on your message.

  125. ronnie anderson says:

    Ninja Penquin, same goes fur you if you,s need funds tae keep producing they brilliant vids the moneys here fur you,s, git them on CDs.

  126. Jock Scot says:

    Just received notice of the comments on this here conversation and would like to say thanks for all the wonderful reaction to Yew Choob’s ‘Underground’ video, plus. Much appreciated. We ARE all doing our bit and it’s cool to realise what we do is appreceiated. Re Broughty Ferry, look forward to it and the chance to meet some of the fellow Wing’s Brigade.

  127. FergusC says:

    Been enjoying the read since recently being sent WOS link by my good pal @XSticks, as a 20 year exile of those Isles I cannot vote but certainly support goal of achieving a democracy to be proud of in Scotland, with a progressive and flexible economy to work closely with our powerful neighbours but also compete with the best. There may be a few like me who would be interested in coming home to an Independant Scotland.

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