stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Storming the nation

Posted on August 27, 2017 by

The Sunday Times has a breathless account today of Jeremy Corbyn’s triumphant five-day tour of Scotland.

It sounds like quite the event.

“As he continued a Scottish tour which has seen crowds turn out to hear him […] he will meet activists in Musselburgh, perform at the Edinburgh Fringe, and also speak at a rock festival in Glasgow.

Scottish Labour regards his five day visit as an outstanding success. Only months ago many party members wanted to bury him; now many are queuing up to praise him. His success has surprised even his harshest critics. Diehard sceptics like Lord Foulkes of Cumnock have finally come around to him.

‘As an orator he’s no Michael Foot or Neil Kinnock, but his quiet, understated style has cut through,’ the Labour peer said. ‘More and more people are coming behind him. We must support him, he is our elected leader after all.'”

While you try to get over the effusive love gushing besottedly from that quote, we thought you might like to see some images of Corbyn’s rally at Leith Links in Edinburgh today, because Scottish Labour’s Twitter account has been oddly reluctant to run many pics of the allegedly massive crowds the tour has drawn.

The first shot below was taken while he was speaking.

Always arrive early for the best spots, readers.

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    1. 27 08 17 22:57

      Storming the nation | speymouth

    423 to “Storming the nation”

    1. Socrates MacSporran says:

      There are lies, damned lies, and the shite the Britnational Unionist media will print about Scotland.

    2. Dr Jim says:

      What no loaves and fishes?

    3. Malky says:

      That bus left a long time ago, Jeremy. Get over it.

    4. heedtracker says:

      Haha! Sunday Times crew as bad as Orange Hitler and his outright lies about his puny inauguration crowd numbers.

      It is very creepy watching Rupert Murdoch’s Sunday Times creeps boosting Jeremy Corbyn though. If only because uncle Rupert does exact same boosting for Trump too.

    5. Morag says:

      When I first saw these photos on Twitter I had no idea Corbyn was there. I thought it was just some routine local branch Sunday afternoon activity stall. If it had been that, the turnout would have been fair to OK.

      Then I realised why people were tweeting the photos. It’s not Glastonbury, is it?

    6. Wull says:

      Seen bigger crowds at a Sunday School picnic. Not so many behind Mr. Corbyn then.

      Thanks, Stu. Keep up the good work, exposing the lies, enlightening the reader and cutting through all the propaganda like a knife through butter.

      The other things that have been happening only means you have them well and truly rattled.

    7. Chick McGregor says:

      Gon yersel Jeremy! Well, nearly.

    8. Meg merrilees says:

      The truth will always come out.

      More power to yir elbow Stuart.

    9. heedtracker says:

      His success has surprised even his harshest critics. Diehard sceptics like Lord Foulkes of Cumnock have finally come around to him.”

      On balance, the Times ligger probably was on the sauce pumping that kind of stuff out.

    10. gordoz says:

      That wouldn’t be the same John Boothman that was an ‘impartial Big Shot at the ‘impartial’ BBC would it ?

    11. johnj says:

      They must really hate you Stu.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Half of them probably thought it was a queue for ice cream.

    13. Simon Curran says:

      Was it a comedy act at the Fringe?

    14. gordoz says:

      Why does good Lord Foulkes always remind me of Sir Les Patterson.
      (Barry Humphries strangely realistic creation)

    15. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Fading away already – and so is Ruth.

      Here’s a crowd. Worth 100 PPBs. Heedrumhodrum ya bass
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sld5AKlbycM

    16. Cath says:

      It baffled me that otherwise sane and intelligent people in England – in particular, probably a few in Scotland to though – can’t see the glaring inconsistency of papers which are vehemently anti-Labour in the UK suddenly being gushing about them in Scotland.

      If anything speaks volumes about what the Labour party really are, ie the second establishment party in the UK, pro-Trident, pro-Lords, pro-Brexit and pro the status quo in every single way, it’s the fact that in Scotland the Tory press, the wealthy and establishment love them so very dearly.

    17. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      “We don’t believe in that shit. We just sell it. We reserve the right to believe for the young, the poor and the stupid.”

    18. HandandShrimp says:

      I doubt the Times will be so generous when it comes to a stand off between the Tories and Labour. It merely suits their agenda to Let Boothman carry his anti-SNP shtick from the BBC to their sad organ.

      Corbyn’s visit has been a remarkable non-event though. Did he really say that it would be difficult and problematic for Scotland to have a separate legal settlement on Brexit?

    19. Smallaxe says:

      Well you can’t win them all, said Jeremy’s friend;
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbhYqV17CoQ&ab_channel=kigonjiro

    20. heedtracker says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA

      What ever happened to our imperial masters SLab? There’s probably more of the old SLab guard here than in the photos of JC’s tour flop. This is still really the funniest politics youtube vid out there too.

    21. Chic McGregor says:

      At least gazebo on loan from the garden centre shows they had realistic expectations.

    22. Iain says:

      Gosh the fellow is amazing, the crowd is as big as a fibdem party conference.

    23. Petra says:

      Ha, ha, ha! You wonder how many of the ‘crowd’, of less than a hundred by the looks of it, just wandered over to see what was going on ….. and then did a runner.

      Who wants to listen to a man who doesn’t even know that Scotland has it’s own distinct legal system and blames the SNP for poverty in Scotland? Worst still saying it’s a disgrace that they won’t mitigate it when it was his party that blocked relevant powers being devolved to Scotland (Smith) and his party that has backed Tory austerity measures.

      “Third world Scottish cities”, he says. It’s well seeing that he doesn’t have a clue about Scotland and didn’t visit over the decades when his own party was in power.

    24. heedtracker says:

      Huge JC boost from The National tomorrow, banner frontpage, “Labour in Brexit wake up call.”

      Well The National crew keep saying they’re not er, on one side or the other or, something. JC will be very pleased with this front page though, very, considering The National says its pro Scottish indy.

      The National?Verified account @ScotNational 10m10 minutes ago

      Tomorrow @ScotNational Labour in Brexit wake-up call – Corbyn’s party finally recognises how damaging an extreme Tory Brexit would be

    25. Wee Folding Bike says:

      Looked like he hikacked a civil servant demo in Coatbridge but the photos were still very tightly cropped which hides a low turnout.

    26. Tam the Bam. says:

      I posted on the National’s front page pic of The Weirs and their (at best) clumsily incompetent..(at worst) deliberate headline ‘MILLIONAIRES DONATE £25million to tories war-chest’…that were it indeed deliberate..I would terminate my subscription…and now this.Considering my position.

    27. Tinto Chiel says:

      Wow, at last, after all these years! Physical proof!

      Schroedinger’s crowd?

      Pathetic/not pathetic.

      What a steaming load of Carmichael.

    28. Smallaxe says:

      HandandShrimp says:

      “Corbyn’s visit has been a remarkable non-event though. Did he really say that it would be difficult and problematic for Scotland to have a separate legal settlement on Brexit?”

      Yes, he did say that!
      Jeremy Corbyn: ‘Very, very difficult’ to have separate Brexit;
      http://archive.is/XOz9n

    29. Seasick Dave says:

      It’s lucky it wasn’t raining otherwise he wouldn’t have got such a massive turnout.

    30. Cactus says:

      Ahhhhh ha ha ha.

      Now that was funny.

      Cram them in.

      Corbyn could ONLY ever do or be good for England, not Scotland.

      We can barely see ye Jeremy n co fae oor top floor bathroom window.

      Safe journey.

    31. jimnarlene says:

      Taxi for Corbyn, bye.

    32. ClanDonald says:

      My favourite moments from Stormin’ Corbyn’s tour were his reference to the “regions and nations of England” and then claiming that a separate legal system for Scotland would be “difficult and problematic.” Oh dear, what an embarassment, wahahaha.

    33. heedtracker says:

      Graun loves JC now.

      Beeb r4 gimps are also boosting old Corbyn but none of UKOK hackdom has actually explained, how JC will make the EU keep the UK in the EU free market. I know, its just how tory propaganda works. Continued EU fishing and control of UKOK fishing can’t be worth that much surely.

      Sunday 27 August 2017 18.27 BST

      At last, Labour has wrested the Brexit debate from the Tories
      Zoe Williams

      The Conservatives’ internal divisions were wreaking havoc on the UK. Keir Starmer’s intervention has brought this period to an end

    34. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Ah Johnnie Bossyman ex BBC jockland writing a glowing piece about a non entity visit by a British Nationalist charlatan on the con in Scotland. How delightfully colonial.

    35. Robert Graham says:

      I would have thought the Messiah would have been here for the official opening of Alex Salmonds vanity project, broon has already stuck his neb in with the usual assistance from the BBC in Scotland, Is there any way a toll can be levied on Union supporters say £20.00 one way, now that’s a tax raising power that’s not been explored yet, I know Jackie Ballie the tax expert will be on the ball nothing passes her watchful eye , I mean the 40000 jobs dependent on trident will in the end have to be replaced, The brass neck of Corbyn visiting a steel plant that took the SNP to save was f/n breathtaking, if we don’t watch Kezia closely, she will be claiming that the bridge was only possible because of the Union ,

    36. heedtracker says:

      The UK Labour leader said it would be very complicated to separate things out because some companies operate across the whole of the country, and that a UK-wide agreement is needed.

      He also said that the idea of separate economic and legal systems in different parts of the UK becomes “difficult and very problematic”.

      https://stv.tv/news/scotland/1396534-impossible-to-have-separate-brexit-plans-says-corbyn/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

      Should rattle a few Scots lawyer’s teacups. He’s not the messiah poor old JC.

    37. ClanDonald says:

      @Petra, did Corbyn actually say Scotland’s cities are third world? Do you have a link?

    38. The official figure for the March & Rally for Independence in Dunfermline (same day as corbyn) was a small event and official police figures said 2000 in attendance at the march. That’s substancially more than both of corbyns events combined.

    39. Petra says:

      @ Heedtracker at 9:23pm ……. “Imperial Masters.”

      Yeah that has to be considered a classic HD. Alex Salmond thinks so too … fell about laughing, seemingly. I just love everything about it such as the signs of Scottish innovation and humour. I also felt that most of these Labour politicians / activists didn’t want to come to Glasgow in part due to it supposedly being a real Mean City, so not surprising when you see some who look as though they’re ready to have a bout of diarrhoea wondering what’s going to happen next. Wee Kelly’s beeliebag face is a picture too.

    40. Macart says:

      Pretty dire right enough.

      So much for ‘more honest politics’.

    41. Rock says:

      A majority of Scots being the most stupid people on earth, Corbyn poses a very big risk in further reducing SNP support at the next “snap” general election.

      A certain poster, who now posts under another name, was confidently predicting that Labour would be lucky to get 15%. They ended up with 27%.

      Thepnr:

      “Just thought I should mention I think Labour in Scotland will be lucky if they get 15% of the vote in this GE. Hopefully less.”

      Rock:

      “Unfortunately, more than 20% of the voting public in Scotland remains stupid enough to vote for Labour.”

      The SNP must take Corbyn extremely seriously.

      Never underestimate the British Establishment.

    42. Tinto Chiel says:

      “My favourite moments from Stormin’ Corbyn’s tour were his reference to the “regions and nations of England” and then claiming that a separate legal system for Scotland would be “difficult and problematic.” Oh dear, what an embarassment, wahahaha.”

      To be fair, ClanDonald, he was only 310 years out on the lack of awareness scale.

      Might be a record for a Labour politician, mind.

    43. Rock says:

      This article, together with the pictures, should be front page headline news in tomorrow’s or Tuesday’s edition of the “independence supporting” The National.

    44. Grouse Beater says:

      Contrast Corbyn’s gab fest with Alex Salmond’s show at the Fringe, every night a sell-out, and standing ovations …

    45. Smallaxe says:

      Apologies, my post at 9:22 was meant for O/T.

    46. galamcennalath says:

      ClanDonald says:

      “regions and nations of England”

      Video of that one, for posterity?

    47. Rock says:

      It does not matter how many people Corbyn actually attracted.

      When the likes of Milliband turned up in Scotland before the referendum, they only met Labour activists for a few minutes behind closed doors.

      Reports of fictitious crowds are all that are needed to fool gullible voters.

    48. yesindyref2 says:

      Youo get more crowds around just the Wings Over Scotland stall – and that’s without even the Rev being there!

    49. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock? That’ll help a lot I’m sure.

    50. Cal says:

      I never buy the National when Jeremy Conman is on the cover. We should all do that and maybe they’ll notice a big dip in their sales. Simple cause and effect – they’ll get the message quickly enough.

    51. Ken MacColl says:

      Not difficult to see why Boothman’s sycophantic article was not accompanied by pictures. Why any radical Scot could be attracted to the pro Trident policy endorsed by Corbyn, the swithering approach to Brexit, and his blanket opposition to further self determination may attract the support of worthy old soaks like the noble Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. We note that Kezia Dugdale has undergone a Damascene conversion about Jeremy and his suitability for high office but it would now seem likely that her number is already up.
      The standard of reporting on politics in Scotland is dire and consistently dishonest.Boothman is a regular offender but he is far from unique. If he attended this “rally” he must have seen that the attendance was sparse. If he was not there did he just reissue the SLAB Press Release?

    52. Smallaxe says:

      ClanDonald;

      Corbyn said: “This ward where we are standing now has a very low life expectancy, lower in many cities than what we choose to call the third world.
      http://archive.is/Moup5

    53. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T

      Misreporting Scotland predictably ‘talk-over’ Jeremy crashing the car into Scots law…..

      *Jeremy:Scots law?………wots that then?

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      OMG, it’s Jim Murphy reincarnated!

      (The same portable media bubble. Except with even fewer numbers.)

      =laughs like a drain=

    55. Joemcg says:

      Totally agree with Rock and some other posters. A golden opportunity was lost in the immediate aftermath of the EU referendum. God knows why Nicola and the party dragged their heels and didn’t strike while the iron was hot. Fannied about and we lost the greatest chance since 1707. Extremely annoying and maybe unrecoverable.

    56. ClanDonald says:

      @galamcennalath

      I don’t know how to link it but I saw the video on Scotland Tonight’s twitter feed, if you search @ScotlandTonight you should be able to find it, it was the interview with Bernard Ponsonby.

      Or hold on, I’ll give it a go, try this, not sure if it will work, if it doesn’t link try copy and pasting it. Otherwise maybe someone else can find it and give it a go:

      twitter.com/ScotlandTonight/status/900820836558544896

    57. Tinto Chiel says:

      Smallaxe 10.30: indeed!

      Probs caused by: BLiS______d being in charge of Glasgow for 70+ years and Labour voting with/abstaining on Tory austerity measures.

      Hypocrite doesn’t really cover it, eh?

      Bugs Bunny: “What a maroon!”

    58. Smallaxe says:

      galamcennalath says:
      27 August, 2017 at 10:11 pm
      ClanDonald says:
      “regions and nations of England”
      Video of that one, for posterity?

      For Posterity;
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C19y7XgJIPg&ab_channel=BobMcNair
      🙂

    59. ClanDonald says:

      Thanks, Smallaxe, glad it’s on youtube, STV will probably remove their one soon.

    60. dakk says:

      Why didn’t the quintessential English conman visit Faslane to drum up support for that Labour flagship policy?

      This latest British Nationalist Labour fake lefty will sorely disappoint all the poor young English people who sing his praises.

      Old drip of a man.

    61. heedtracker says:

      Murdoch’s goons love JC, beeb r4 tory gimps love Crash Gordo.

      What ever could be happening out here, to suddenly make great and the good socialist workers, JC and Crash, so suddenly lovable to hard core britnat tories today?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b092f4j7

      As the longest three-tower, cabled-stayed bridge in the world opens in Scotland, Gordon Brown shares the story of the three bridges over the Forth in whose shadow he lives.”

    62. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Aren’t we so wonderfully happy, everyone, to be just another nation of England.

      With the dead duck of Federalism on the table. Somebody should tell El Gordo, since he said we have that already. (Probably why it’s not just dead, but putrefying.)

      And old Grandad Cobblers in charge.

      The best of all possible worlds.

      (Or not.)

    63. Clootie says:

      Corbyn has lost all credibility.
      You cannot hold socialist values and staunch hardline unionist values at the same time. You either have rationale social values or you don’t….except in Labour circles apparently!

    64. Smallaxe says:

      ClandDonald, you’re more than welcome, my friend.

    65. Tam the Bam. says:

      joemcg…10-35pm

      ‘why didn’t Nicola strike whilst the iron was hot?’

      What did you have in mind Joe?

    66. jfngw says:

      Here we were, just assuming that our dear Kezia would easily walk away with most uninformed political leader of the year award, then up pops Corbyn. Here is a man that still hasn’t got to grips with the union after 300 years. Maybe we should have the treaty inscribed on a man-hole cover to attract his attention.

    67. frogesque says:

      A picture is worth a thousand words.

      Labour is a busted flush.

    68. Iain MacGillivray says:

      Seen more people in a hut with Teresa may, or at a trump inuguration…..

    69. Iain MacGillivray says:

      Seen more people in a hut with Teresa may, or at a trump inauguration…..

    70. Robert Graham says:

      Now that is a coincidence, I pointed out the BBC Scottish news hadn’t updated for two days, then presto within ten minutes of posting here it suddenly changed, now that’s strange their Scottish news like clockwork usually updates around midnight or just after. Tin hat time or are the crew at Pacific heights following what is going on here , Hello, Hello, Waving, Hello Hello, oh f/k it’s the pills ha ha .

    71. Graeme McCormick says:

      Leith Links was their second choice. They tried to book the Hydro

    72. Paula Rose says:

      Yay – had more folk at my Yes picnic!

    73. Hamish100 says:

      Isn’t pretendy prof ex labour MSP Susan Deacon who is against free personal healthcare got a partner called John Boothman who used to work at the bbc?

      or is this all just co-incidence?

      Wheres my lottery ticket.

      Next we will have gordon the bruno on radio 4 saying he used to build bridges.

      liebour -the biggest chancers on the planet

    74. Liz g says:

      I’ve always took the view that if Corbin had what it takes to be Prime Minister,it would have shown it’s self long before now!
      The narrative of how he became party leader against all the odds.
      The “struggle” to stay true to the will of the people who voted for him.
      The attacks from his own “comrades”……
      All a wee bit too Hollywood and no enough Holyrood for me!!
      This guy is IMHO an approved alternative to keep the natives thinking that they are getting a choice.
      And if the English electorate were paying any attention?????
      His behaviour and utterances in and about Scotland demonstrates it!

      OT…. espically if Skip NC is reading!!
      My thoughts & love are with the people of Texas tonight.
      I can’t do a thing for them….but I am thinking of them X

    75. Robert Louis says:

      Pro Trident, Pro Brexit, anti immigration, self proclaimed ‘leftie’ Jeremy Corbyn is just one of so many London/English politicians to come up to Scotland, and tell us Scots where we are going wrong. The sad fact is, that as usual, this particular example of utterly patronising arrogance from England, clearly knows sweet F all about Scotland.

      Jeremy would better serve his time (and that of the people of Scotland) by b***ering off back to England.

      It is staggering that even now, in 2017, people such as the leader of the London British Labour party still do not know such basic facts such as that Scotland has a completely separate and very different legal system from that in England, and that it’s continuity is enshrined within article 19 of the treaty of union of 1707.

      The man is an ignorant, patronising, English fool. Scotland needs Jeremy Corbyn and his self-important, patronising ilk, like a proverbial hole in the head.

    76. ElaineS says:

      Disgusts me he was sniffing round Kirkcaldy, even Gordon Brown keeps out of town as much as possible since he knows we know he crapped on us from big height when he swanned around the world in his last term as MP, he was never to be seen unless for odd fotoshoot by his pal Allan Crowe in the local Johnson Press own Fife Free Press and in his last year he only had 1 surgery and attended WM on 13% in last year. I wonder if it was Brown who suggested St Bryce Kirk, the Kirk of Brown’s Reverend Dad…..funny how during Indy Campaign it was Yes movement that often had Yes events in that Kirk and Brown used other places in town……..probably knew the roof would fall in the minute he started lying through his back teeth, probably never risked doinghis No events there unless he was damned to hell. Lesley Laird only won with a maj of 259 but Labour got less than Election in 2015, I still cant work out HOW Roger Mullin lost his 10k majority when Tories doubled their 5k to 10k and Labour got less votes than 2015 yet won with majority of 259. I seen another photo of the”ordinary” folk seemingly down to meet Corbyn….I recognise them as Labour members/activists and as an ex activist, this is what local Labour does, we usually got told to get down and attend and pretend.

    77. Still Positive says:

      Corbyn is an a**e who doesn’t know anything about Scotland including our separate legal system. He also knows nothing about the SNP SG spending £100m per year mitigating Tory welfare cuts which his party voted for and the SNP MPs voted against.

    78. Robert Louis says:

      Remember that phrase “regions and nations of England”. The words of Jeremy Corbyn. Scotland, a ‘nation of England’.

      Just let that sink in, the next time you get tempted to vote Labour.

    79. Big Phil says:

      We are all being fecked with our clothes on , these barstewards are out tae crush us.
      @ Heedtracker.. you the one on the bike on youtube ??? lol

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander:

      I was composing a very detailed reply to your usual claptrap, Colin and had almost finished. I was proofreading and re-doing anything that was not abundantly clear when the whole thing vanished into the ether. I am not about to re-do it.

      Suffice to say not a single point you attempted to make stood up to careful examination.

      I will quote just one example just to make the point – Your claim that the English pay higher Council Tax than the Scots came after you made a point that council tax is roughly equivalent to the property values.

      This is laughable, Colin. I personally have two aunts who left Scotland to work as London Civil Servants and who married fairly high ranking London Civil Servants way back before WWII.

      Eventually they both were widowed and they each had only one adult child.

      They both sold up fairly modest London dwellings. One Aunt moved to a Northern English Town to a much larger semi-detached dwelling that included three other flats that she rented out and the property also contained a large yard and a set of outbuildings that enabled her unmarried son to set himself up in a Taxi Business that now employs several people. All from the sale of that one modest London flat.

      The other Aunt returned to Scotland with her married daughter and family to a large country house with a fair acreage of land and a horse paddock and stables. The Stables are run by her daughter and her daughter husband. Again all from the profits from the sale of a fairly modest London flat.

      Yet you make a point of claiming the Englanders pay higher Council tax. Of course they do for that tax is based upon property value and not just unit size.

      BTW: The Scottish per capita Gross Domestic Product is normally higher than either the combined United Kingdom Per-Capita GDP or of any other UK country.

      If you bother to study what per capita GDP actually is you will find it is the total revenues raised by any particular geographic area divided by the total population of that area.

      In this example it is United Kingdom Countries and because it is on a per capita basis the unequal population sizes are irrelevant.

      Thus as Scotland’s per capita GDP is higher than that of every other individual UK country that means the Scots must be already the highest taxed people in the United Kingdom. That is the revenue raised on average by each Scot is greater than any other UK country.

      Don’t just take my word for it, Colin, go check out the ONS, (Office of National Statistics), figures for yourself but bear in mind that there are other false figures that indicate the Scots GDP is actually some way higher that the ONS ever shows.

      I can quote several such scammed examples but the example I have chosen is that the ONS classes all Oil & Gas Revenues as being from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”. But these oil & gas revenues are actually up to 98% from Scottish territorial waters. Yet they are not counted in the Scottish Per-capita GDP.

      Then they UK Government compound that error by estimating, (and only for other statistical calculations), that Scotland’s share of the raised revenue is based, not on 98% geographic area but on a population share of 8.4% of the total UK population.

    81. sinky says:

      Times article by ex BBC head of news John Boothman whose partner was Labour MSP.
      Just saying…

    82. Petra says:

      O/T

      @ ClanDonald at 9:51pm …. “Third World.”

      I read about this in the Sun on Friday / yesterday? CD. It was a snippet on page 2 which I typed out in full in the last article on here. You might get some data online. Hope that helps.

      ………………………………..

      Here we go with the slag the National again. Has anyone else noticed that individuals on here who constantly castigate the SNP (professing to be Indy supporters) and run down the National never have anything derogatory to say about Labour, Tories, Libdems, the Daily Record, the Express, the Mail, Guardian etc. Strange, eh?

      ………………………………

      @Tam the Bam at 9:40pm … ‘ The National front page article on the Weirs.

      Just trying to figure out what day that article was on the front page of the National, Tam. Maybe you could let me know what I’ve missed. What day?

      What I read, on page 2 (25/08/17), clearly pointed out that the Weirs had donated money to the SNP (some loaned). The Tories had received £25 million (that we know about) such as from people like oil tycoon Alasdair Locke whose photograph was on that page. Labour had received £9.5 million, Libdems £4.3 million and £596,000 was donated to the SNP …. £500,000 of that from the Weirs. In other words if it wasn’t for the Weirs the SNP would be struggling on a paltry £96,000.

      The article also highlighted that Labour’s Alex Rowley attacked the SNP for accepting money from millionaires (the Weirs) whilst they, Labour, “raise small individual donations from millions of ordinary people.” No mention that the majority of their money comes from Unions and big buck billionaire donators such as JKR.

      The article was full of interesting data. Now why would you be complaining about that, I wonder?

      ……………………………………..

      The Sunday Herald had a great front page today. Extremely helpful for the Independence cause, especially with Corbyn mooching about Scotland. ‘Special Report …. Scottish Labour in Civil War’ with a 2 page spread including Findlay tearing Murphy (and McTernan) to shreds.

      Additionally 2 pages on Scottish culture / history, an exposé of Scottish companies breaching International sanctions against Russia, a report on the devastating threat of climate change to Scotland, great article on Iraq, McWhirters ‘Brexit: a very British act of self-harm’ which highlights that the UK Government has always had the power to restrict immigration if it really wanted to and an article on Davidson’s dinosaurs – “something sinister lurking in the ranks of the opposition.”

      Four pages had been allocated to the subject of GERS covered by Professor Richard Murphy, Prof Graeme Roy (Fraser of Allander), Gordon McIntyre Kemp and Margaret Cuthbert.

      All in all extremely informative and most definitely supporting the Independence movement.

    83. Meg merrilees says:

      There’s a good article in the Scotsman – ‘Davidson’s mask has slipped’ re the farce of the Stirling councillors being re-instated and Ross the Referee’s gypsy remark.

      Can’t archive it, sorry.

      It’s open for BTL comments but virtually every single remark has been ‘removed for review’.

      Obviously a controversial topic!!!

    84. davidb says:

      Foulkes – “More and more people are coming behind him.”

      He’d be wise to watch those ones the most, for a lot of them will have knives.

    85. Hamish100 says:

      rock and tam the bam

      cant read the National for fear of the truth touching their sensitive spots

    86. ClanDonald says:

      John Boothman “left” his job at BBC after being caught bullying Margo McDonald’s daughter.

      Oddly the BBC failed to cover the story.

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/top-bbc-scotland-executive-john-5894569

    87. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Interesting response and hopefully other readers found it interesting too.

    88. Norman Stewart says:

      And at least two of that crowd are mates of mine,Yes voters.

    89. Tom McAlister says:

      I can’t see the loon in the photos. Perhaps Lurch (Jim Murphy) will lend him his auld Irn Brew crate since they’re both redundant these days.

    90. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 11.38
      I do hope that you are not going to dignify the response to your 11.38 post with an answer.
      Your time is much more valuable than that Robert!
      How rude, and it has to be said,ignorant of that person.

      Would love it if you turned that insight of your’s on to Corbin…..what dae ye think of him?
      How much of a threat to indy do you see him as?

    91. Robert Peffers says:

      I’m not kidding or exaggerating here when I say that when I attended school in Leith back in the late 1940s/early 1950s we used to play football at lunchtime on Leith Links.

      We would start out as 11 a side and then, as guys finished their lunches, we would add players equally as they arrived.

      We would finish up with two bigger sides than in those photos of the Corbyn rally.

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh dear, The National front page and headline. That’ll go down well with getting on for half of Scottish Labour voters 😎

      Pax vobiscum!

    93. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 12.30
      Whit does the pax v..!!?!!! Thing mean?

    94. Big Phil says:

      @
      Liz g ,
      Smallaxe knows. 😉

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Peace go with you!

      Seemed appropriate somehow, with Corbyn throwing out Blairites, and now the Labour Brexiteers taking umbrage. Soon it’ll be just him, Dugdale and Murray left.

      Oh.

      Seems the N is starting to fight fire with fire.

    96. dakk says:

      davidb says:
      28 August, 2017 at 12:01 am
      Foulkes – “More and more people are coming behind him.”

      Whatever turns you on I suppose.

      Corbyn has a highly unnatractive scrawny crotch and backside to my eye.

      Foulkes must be talking through drink

    97. Big Phil says:

      Corbyn hasnt got a clue about Scotland. He treats us like a ‘region’ , the thing is that we (as a collective) let him. Where were the banners saying so. We all knew that wee man was coming here yet there was NO demo. Were wer we ?? honest question, 😉

    98. Chick McGregor says:

      First, second and third Forth Bridges – easy spin for our fifth columnists.

    99. Petra says:

      @ Boris 12:13pm …….. Boris I can’t thank you enough for the time, effort / research you obviously put into your articles. Just to let you know that I’ve saved all of your posts as the data therein always seems to come in very useful indeed.

      ………………………………………………..

      @ Norman Stewart at 12:17am …. “And at least two of that crowd are mates of mine. Yes voters.”

      Ha, ha, ha! Not one bit surprised but still the best laugh of the day.

    100. Big Phil says:

      @
      Chick McGregor, yer a cunnylinquist sir and no mistake. lol

    101. More people at the Independence Rally in Dunfermline on Saturday than at all these Labour meetings combined

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      From the Herald, closed to comment:

      Research carried out by the Press Association looked at the quickest possible Friday services between certain major UK towns and cities.

      It worked out the average speed by analysing the distance AS THE CROW FLIES between key destinations and the rail journey time.

      It showed the 13.34 Edinburgh to Perth service, covering a distance of 32 miles, took 76 minutes. It showed an average speed of only 25mph. ” (my bold)

      “As the crow flies”.

      And THAT describes the incredibly shoddy state of journalism today.

    103. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Big Phil @ 00:56,

      These things are hardly public events, y’know. Strictly by invitation – local activists only. Like El Broonzo’s outings for BT during the indyref and others since, the locations are kept secret, and the media are held to a strict code of omerta, under pain of everlasting exclusion from the charmed circle.

      These media chumps know fine well that these puny photo ops are a farce, but they never let on. Au contraire, they connive at hiding it. As the BBC did at the previous “Scottish” Lab and Tory party conferences, where the pathetic lack of numbers was hidden by deliberately low camera angles.

      Thanks to WoS, in this matter as with other things, we can get the true picture.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      forgot:

      http://archive.is/FgPru

      “Scots trains run slower on average than London based services”

      Somebody please buy the Press Association a map of Scotland showing train tracks. And the Herald, come to that.

    105. Highland Wifie says:

      Looks like they’re getting ready for one of those how many people can you fit in a phone box events if you ask me.

    106. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 01:49,

      Just as well there isn’t a train station at Ballater now, or I hate to think what those fools would have reckoned for the notional (there’s that word again!) “speed” =ahem= between there and Aviemore!

    107. Big Phil says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland,
      We all knew he was coming here Robert,I know what you’re saying , its just so frustrating that we are powerless. rips ma knitting. ;-(

    108. James Barr Gardner says:

      O/T
      I was telling my older brother today about the Forward Together March and Rally in Dunfermline on Saturday, he told me the BBC reported 200 people at it. WTF! I was there, even the Police said 2000. Aye 2000 is about right for the March, haud on whit aboot the folk who could nae walk the 2 miles and opted to turn up at the park, an whit aboot the car cavalcade that took off to the Park before the start of the March. Intae the bargain whit aboot the YES BIKERS who were there and attended the Rally. All I kin say BBC if you say it’s 200, weel then youse are shower o’lyin’ bastarts an ye would pit Tam Pepper tae shame. BTW it wis a crackin’ day and if you wurnae there, weel you missed a smashin’ upliftin’ day.
      BTW Rev Stu there were Twa Wings Flags flyin’ awe day in the bright sunshine awe thro’ the Toon and intae the Park, with it’s grand view o’ the new bridge ower the Forth!

    109. yesindyref2 says:

      The Press Association must be taking “The Flying Scotsman” literally.

      I hope THAT nonsense makes the headlines – all over the world.

    110. Big Phil says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland,
      And ,even though its ‘Invitation only’,we surely have enough people that should know whats happening around their areas, we’re fighting against the best (cough) intelligence corp(corrupted) that the establishment can muster yet they come up here and take the piss .bloody foreigners…. see wot i did there. ? 😉

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Indeed.

      https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1005&bih=891&q=google+maps+train+route+edinburgh+to+perth+distance&oq=google+maps+train+route+edinburgh+to+perth+distance&gs_l=psy-ab.3…93499.95263.0.95853.9.9.0.0.0.0.215.1111.0j6j2.8.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..1.7.969…33i160k1j33i21k1.F8ID-H0UT_c

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmmm, instead of 32 miles as the crow flies, it’s roughly 75 miles on actual rail tracks rather than up up and away by airtrain. Can’t find any actual exact figure though. Which would make the average speed 60 mph, not 25 mph, including stops at stations including Haymarket, which for the terrain ain’t bad.

      I wish this clustermsm would go big, as it’s not just a newspaper, it’s the Press Assocation itself, and shows how totally fsking ignorant they are about Scotland.

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      Or maybe 70 miles around Fife.

      I need to get a life.

    114. Dr Jim says:

      British Nationalists complain Scottish Nationalists hate the Inglish (not true) while they’re enforcing a vote based on hating everybody
      British Nationalists spout racism and sectarianism get caught doing it then get away with it if they say they’ve apologised in private
      British Nationalists say Scotland is an equal regional part of their country of Inglind and don’t even notice they said it (Jeremy Corbyn)

      And finally, British Nationalists are afraid and confused about the name of their own country (which is actually Inglind) Britain=location like Europe=location, Asia and so on

      The other three countries in Britain have different names

    115. Skip_NC says:

      Lizg, I have some professional colleagues in TX, getting hit with twenty inches of rain in the last two days and it hasn’t stopped. Schools are closed until after Labor Day (first Monday in September) and people are being mandatorily evacuated. We have a neighbour with relatives in Texas and I would not be surprised to see them here for an extended period, if they were able to get away.

      Here in Raleigh, we should just about miss the worst of Tropical Storm Irma. 30mph winds and some rain tomorrow evening until Tuesday afternoon is what we’re getting. We are very fortunate.

    116. sassenach says:

      Good morning, thought I’d peruse the comments before the ‘man from C&A’ starts his shift of anti-SNP garbage once more.

      I’m glad to see Stu has hopefully returned to his blogs – it’s been a worrying week!!

      It’s bad enough having to see all the anti-indy guff thrown at us from all directions when our main avenue of expression, WoS, is being attacked.

      There is so much stuff out there just now from Corbyn, Tory bigot councillors (and their Leaderine), and, blimey, even Crash is being resurrected – and our ‘main man’ is being handicapped!!

      I can only hope there are European leaders taking note of these matters, as well. It’s a long process getting our ‘home crowd’ to see the light about what the Britnats are doing to Scotland – for God’s sake what WILL it take to convince them?

    117. sassenach says:

      Just noticed the good old BBC Scotland propaganda is (once again) in doing down Scotland mode.

      According to their site, our schools are rubbish (AGAIN!) following “co-ordinated FOI requests”. How much do the BBC cost the Scottish government in cash and time with all their repeated FOIs?

    118. Ghillie says:

      Paula Rose 11.15 pm

      ‘Yah – Had more folk at my Yes picnic!’

      Of course you did Paula Pose = )

      YOU are well loved and worth spending time with 🙂

    119. Breeks says:

      sassenach says:
      28 August, 2017 at 5:26 am
      “Just noticed the good old BBC Scotland propaganda is (once again) in doing down Scotland mode.

      According to their site, our schools are rubbish (AGAIN!) following “co-ordinated FOI requests”. How much do the BBC cost the Scottish government in cash and time with all their repeated FOIs?”

      Aye. FOIs which they themselves regularly spurn at leisure.

      I’m getting caught up on stuff too. I read Tommy Sheppards lecture in the National, but didn’t find it very reassuring.

      I think the SNP is in danger of floundering. I hope with every fibre the Autumn conference is the catalyst required to have the SNP refocus on the principles of Brexit rather than the popularity. Unless the SNP seizes the initiative and grasps hold of the sovereign aspect of Scotland’s Remain vote in 2016, then they are going to be an irrelevance to the Brexit process until it is much too late to salvage anything. If we don’t fight Brexit before it happens, then all is lost.

      Sadly, Mr Sheppards speech seems to telegraph that nothing is going to happen until Brexit is finalised, and the next “ScotRef” becomes the shorthand description of a “EuroRef”, which won’t matter a damn because we’ll be out of Europe and complicit with abandoning our claims to be a sovereign people.

      Unless we get our heads and hands around this notion of Scottish sovereignty, then we are dangerously ill equipped, and stupidly ill equipped, to win any constitutional battle with Westminster. And rest assured, winning the constitutional Battle of Britain is much more important than the democratic battle about Europe. That isn’t an argument for forfeiting the democratic battle, but it is grievous warning that we dare not forfeit the constitutional control of our sovereignty.

      Defend our sovereignty, then win, lose, or draw, Scotland can make its own decisions. Abandon sovereignty to the constitutional jungle which Westminster has grown all around it, and we may never see it again.

      Independence is 100% ALL about sovereignty. FFS Stop faffing about and get the Goddamned priorities right. Scotland voted Remain, and dragging Scotland out of Europe is a brazen flouting of Scotland’s democratically expressed sovereignty, and that is an unqualified and unambiguous act of unconstitutional subjugation. You don’t roll over and have a vote to ratify that, you fight it. You prevent it from happening.

    120. Ghillie says:

      No ticker tape parade for Jeremy Corbyn…

      The upside of Mr Corbyn’s visit is that his dismal reception all over Scotland mibee means he won’t come back.

      I do feel sorry for the folk of England though that this is the best they have to turn to.

    121. T.roz says:

      Some crowd, just looks like there is a wee fight in the park.

    122. sassenach says:

      Breeks

      Yes, I also am hoping for some concrete happenings at the Conference, because, like yourself, I have felt this last while that the Party is not leading as I think it should.

      I’m still a member and will not vote any other way before independence, but my patience is being exhausted, lately. However the SNP are the only game in town in respect of Indy.

      I sincerely hope that, in view of the news about the ‘Bridge opening’ that Nicola will make sure everyone is told (in her remarks) who built this thing, and who opposed it. If it just becomes another butcher’s apron waving, Her Maj, Fest, then I’ll be fuming.

    123. Robert Louis says:

      I have to say, I agree with others above, that Tommy Shepherd is totally out of sync with the support. The SNP will be finished, if they sit back and let brexit happen. They are supposed to stop it hsppening, not allow it to take place.

      It feels to me that many in the SNP higher levels are getting too cosy, indeed. For at least a year, we have been repeatedly assured, ‘Nicola has a plan’, do not be concerned.

      Well, if the plan is just to close your eyes and pretend brezit isn’t about to trash Scotland, then yes, but otherwise I see nothing happening. It is all talk, and no action.

      People are angry, about brexit. Really, really angry. They want it stopped, not to let it happen, the economy to be in ruin then for the FM (if such a position still exists) to come along and say, ‘let’s have a referendum on brexit’. Unfathomably stupid.

      The people of Scotland (not just indy supporters) will never forgive the SNP if they allow brexit to happen. This is a fight, and it looks like the SNP just want to run away and hide, saying wel, mibbes we can have a referendum in ten years, or mibbes we can wait another year and see…

      It is like this, as regards Scotland’s powers. Each time the FM backs down, Westminster does not also back down, they advance, and take more. Then the next potential problem comes up, the SNP back down, and Westminster advances more. All I see, is reatreat, retreat, retreat, and lots of empty talk.

      Brexit is very, very real, and I have had people say to me, why is Nicola Sturgeon not doing anything? Why are we not having the referendum?

      That is real, that is what is happening. What Tommy Shpeherd had to say was unmitigated surreal baloney of the very highest order. Once brexit happens, the Scottish Government (if it even exists) will have even fewer powers than at present. THAT is what Westminster is about to do.

      Brexit is real. If the SNP Scot Gov does not want to fight, then they should be honest with the people of Scotland, so we can all get our Irish passports, and leave.

      I fully expect their will be NO Scottish Parliament in posy Brexit Britain England.

    124. Ghillie says:

      Tommy Shepherd’s words worked = )

      NOW folk are galvanised again!

      We are back to discussing WHAT we want, WHEN we want it to happen and WHY.

      Focussed my mind!

      Keep it up folks! We ARE on our Road to Independence 🙂

    125. sassenach says:

      Ghillie

      I also believe we are on the Road, but we are up against a most nefarious opposition, both in terms of political parties and a totally propagandised media led by the BBC.

      If Brexit happens then I believe firmly that we can say goodbye to Holyrood very shortly afterwards. We cannot be allowed to leave, Scotland is far too valuable to Inglind – would that but Scots would actually realise this…..grrrr!

    126. Derick fae Yell says:

      With respect folks.

      On the 2014 timetable of 18 months from a Yes vote to independence, and the 3-4 year EU Article 49 accession timetable, to stay in the EU seamlessly before March 2019 Scotland needs to win a Yes vote in 2011 or 2012.

      That ship has sailed.

      We may rejoin the EU in due course. We may (more likely) seek to join EFTA to stay in the Single Market. But pinning a referendum on “staying in the EU” is not a viable proposition.

      Tommy Shepherd’s suggest that the timetable needs to be flexible has merit.

    127. Ian McCubbin says:

      Thos os same unionist propaganda as in 2014 independence campaign.
      Agree with many hear SNP need to be firmer. But timing is crucial and not sure exacttly when is best myself.

    128. Hamish100 says:

      Fae yell

      No ship has sailed – yet
      We are still in the EU as citizens until we leave or are thrown out. Of course waiting until the ukippers \ little Englanders tell us we are out is too late and removes 1 option.

    129. Macart says:

      Heh! So much for the Britnat press drone/cult theory of all things indy.

      For the Britnats and Britnat policy gonks having a fly read? Your slip’s showing and your narrative’s looking a bit shaky. 😉

    130. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      More than 100 people receive hospital treatment after ‘chemical haze’ drifts onshore at Beachy Head;
      http://archive.is/Wuibx

      A monstrous offshore wind-farm is planned for the Moray coast, to power 750 000 homes and create 2 000 jobs. More evidence we need the Union to survive?;
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/08/27/a-monstrous-offshore-wind-farm-is-planned-for-the-moray-coast-to-power-750-000-homes-and-create-2-000-jobs-more-evidence-we-need-the-union-
      to-survive/

      Queensferry Crossing – a bridge to economic resilience;
      https://news.gov.scot/news/queensferry-crossing-a-bridge-to-economic-resilience

    131. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Extra £10m for Edinburgh Festivals;
      https://news.gov.scot/news/extra-gbp-10m-for-edinburgh-festivals

      Use it or Lose it;
      http://indyref2.scot/use-it-or-lose-it

      Monuments tell us about ourselves as well as the past we used to celebrate;
      http://newsnet.scot/archive/monuments-tell-us-well-past-used-celebrate/

    132. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Aristocrat jailed for menacing Gina Miller messages drops his appeal;
      https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/must-reads/aristocrat-jailed-menacing-gina-miller-messages-drops-appeal/25/08/

      UK’s Labour Backs Single Market Membership During Brexit;
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-26/u-k-labour-party-backs-single-market-membership-during-brexit-j6twhd84

      Jeremy Hunt continues war of words with Stephen Hawking over NHS;
      http://archive.is/g2LBe

    133. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Deaths soar as UK gov cuts Drug and Alcohol Support Funding;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/27/deaths-soar-as-uk-gov-cuts-drug-and-alcohol-support-funding/

      Little Britain star just took on a Tory MP over his ‘racist’ rant. Guess who won [TWEETS];
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/27/little-britain-star-just-took-tory-mp-racist-rant-guess-won-tweets/

      Tommy Sheppard is wrong: the independence referendum should be held before the May 2021 election;
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/tommy-sheppard-is-wrong-independence.html

    134. thewaterbeastie says:

      I can remember being part of a bigger crowd of door-to-door Yes canvassers there at Leith Links in the last 40 days to the September 2014 referendum…

    135. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Labour has bought time, and a bit more;
      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/08/27/labour-has-bought-time-and-a-bit-more/

      ‘I have two children with me and the water is swallowing me up’: Thousands stranded due to Hurricane Harvey;
      http://www.thejournal.ie/hurricane-harvey-stranded-3567517-Aug2017/

      Tory MSP’s aide is convicted boat thief and drink-driver… and party bosses knew when they hired him;
      http://archive.is/p2HdP

    136. Smallaxe says:

      LAST BUT NOT LEAST;
      Alex Salmond has backed independent Scotland to have own pound;
      http://archive.is/wJR9Y#selection-1759.0-1759.62

    137. jdman says:

      I’ve seen Ronnie attract FAR bigger crowds to a Wings stall.

    138. Muscleguy says:

      @Yesindyref2
      Even a map of the tracks won’t help you. The line from Cupar to Perth is not passenger rated. Edinburgh to Perth you have to go to Dundee then transfer to a Perth bound train. Hence the 76min. It’s probably quicker to take the bus.

      Something does need fixing there, but then undoing the worst excesses of Beeching will take a long time.

      If you look at an OS map ‘dismantled railway’ is a remarkably common feature. Not all was due to Beeching. There used to be rail lines from Forfar and Brechin to here in Broughty Ferry, when there was a ferry. They had to bring it back into service when the original Tay Bridge blew down. We have an impressive Seven arch viaduct in red brick over the Dighty Burn which used to take the line but now just takes a walking/cycle path.

      I’m not suggesting we completely undo Beeching. There used to be a line across the southern Shore of the Tay between Perth and the Tay Bridge, north of the hills. It was apparently dog slow. I’m not sure we need to reinstate that. St. Andrews keeps bleating about the reinstatement of their branch line from Leuchars but the business case never looks worth it.

      Suggestions for new/reinstated rail lines in Scotland people . . .

    139. Artyhetty says:

      Re;yesindyref2@1.59am.

      So not only is Scotland too wee, too poor, too stupid, but added to that, too slow now. Looks like the negative transport stories will be all over the media this week, (to add to the negative stories on education) what with our shiny new bridge about to open. That would be the bridge that Labour, Tories, Libdems and even the Greens decided was not needed, wanted, nor worth it, and who was it even said it was a ‘vanity’ project? Absolute disgrace.

      And Gordon Brown. What can you say, eh. Anybody got any quotes about him saying the whole idea of a new bridge was SNP bad? Actually a list of what was said by various britnats about this vanity project, (absolutely essential, in other words, infrastructure for Scotland and anyone travelling and trading with to and from Scotland).

      Imagine saying that a major lifeline for your own country is a ‘vanity project’, or that it shouldn’t be built. Those people need to be named for us all to see imo.

    140. Smallaxe says:

      Bonus Link;
      🙂

      Brexit wake-up call: Surprise as Labour back permanent customs union access for the UK;
      http://www.thenational.scot/

    141. Smallaxe says:

      Forth Replacement bridge was a ‘Vanity Project’;
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4MVDjKXBf0&ab_channel=PonsonbyPost
      🙂

    142. orri says:

      One obvious way of speeding up rail journeys would be to cut down on the number of totally unnecessary stops and starts, such as those to allow passengers to get on and off.

    143. Dorothy Devine says:

      Smallaxe , about the boat thief – I do wish the SNP spokesman had not said a word merely shrugged. Sure as hell something will crawl from the undergrowth and belt them one.

      Regarding slow Scotland – would someone like to itemise the benefits of ‘quick’?

      P.S There is a neat article by our very own Rev Stu from December 2015 on the new bridge.

    144. Dorothy Devine says:

      I didn’t realise the independence ‘supporting’ greens were so anti the bridge,

      http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2009/11/08/11251-2112/

      Bet they’ll have mugshots at the opening though – along with all the ‘vanity project’ howler monkeys.

    145. Richardinho says:

      I do feel that an opportunity was missed with the past General Election. I said at the time that the SNP should fight it on the basis that a majority would give a mandate for independence. I feel that was the right moment to strike, but now a lot of momentum has been lost.

      If there’s one thing that has been established it’s that referendums are the gift of the UK government, so why should we have to dance to their tune?

      I think it’s time for a change in tactics.

    146. Yes, fake Murdoch news,just like when Trump claimed that record numbers of people turned out at his inaugurationn-story”.

      Maybe Labour and Corbyn have learned the lesson and not published many photos of the crowd attending his rallies.

      There’s also an interesting article in today’s courier about Corbyns meeting at St Bryce Kirk in Kirkcaldy, where he has promised.

      to protect free bus passes, keep the triple lock on state pensions, protect the winter fuel allowance, “Labour will protect the welfare state from cradle to grave” he said.

      There’s also to be £3billion more for public services in Scotland.

    147. Legerwood says:

      Smallaxe says:
      28 August, 2017 at 8:16 am
      LINKS;

      Deaths soar as UK gov cuts Drug and Alcohol Support Funding;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/27/deaths-soar-as-uk-gov-cuts-drug-and-alcohol-support-funding/
      ……………………

      The Herald ran a similar story 2 weeks ago but in relation to Scotland and a cut in funding to the Alcohol and Drug Partnerships. The story was about an increase in alcohol related deaths.

      Screaming headlines as you can imagine but when you looked at the figures the year on year alcohol related deaths had been rising since 2012 which was long before any funding cuts.

      Then that was followed a few days later by a story about drug related deaths.

      Expect they may rehash them and publish again to chime with this story from England.

    148. Legerwood says:

      QUEENSFERRY CROSSING

      This is what Labour were saying about it in 2006 when it was all their idea of course

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6115244.stm
      And in February 2007
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6359665.stm

      Of course come May 2007 after the Holyrood elections Labour position had changed. Also the LibDems because one of them had been transport minister in the Labour-LibDem coalition if I remember correctly.

    149. I have a great deal of respect for Tommy Sheppard.
      But he is wrong, we can’t wait four years for another Indy ref, there’s no guarantee that the SNP even with the support of the greens would have a majority at Holyrood in 2021.

    150. Phil says:

      Muscleguy says:
      28 August, 2017 at 8:30 am
      Suggestions for new/reinstated rail lines in Scotland people . . .

      Looking for positive business cases: just how many of recently re-opened rail lines have failed to achieve their target? How many exceeded?

      And in more general railway terms, how many lines are now not carrying their full potential passenger numbers, and why? I suspect that just like re-opening lines reaching for full potential is a matter of finding capital for line improvements. Where is that capital? Has any long term planning begun to get it in place?

    151. colin alexander says:

      Encouraging though it is to see so few turn up at Mr Corbyn’s tour, it gives no indication as to how many would put an x beside Labour on a ballot paper, especially across the working class areas that traditionally voted Labour and saw a significant return (from the SNP) to people voting Labour at the GE 2017 or total voter disengagement with politics. But that’s the past. Independists knew WM elections do nothing for Scotland whether you vote Labour or SNP.

      The SNP are going to deliver an indyref, so I’m told. Well, they promised to in their manifesto, so independence should be the focus, not elections, or Mr Corbyn.

      YES is for Labour voters too. It’s for anyone that believes the best option is independence.

      If the SNP try to string voters along with devolution for another five years in 2021 and they haven’t delivered an indyref or something better in this parliamentary term, it makes no difference who is Labour’s leader, the SNP will be dead ducks.

      The SNP sing their own praises about all the extra powers they won at the Smith Commission table: 28 times they mention devolved powers (2016 manifesto). Three times the word “independence” is used.

      Though, as they mainly stand for WM devolution, that makes sense.

      The SNP also said: “We will undertake new work, starting this summer (2016), with the aim of persuading a clear majority of people in Scotland that independence is the best future for our country.”

      Is that why the SNP at the 2017 GE ran with the campaign slogan:
      “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster”?

      The SNP might argue that their focus on begging the UK Govt to get a good Brexit deal is a way of persuading people indy is the best option.

      I disagree.

      So called “Hard Brexit” would mean Scotland is also out of the EU AND European Single Market, so of course the UK Govt would say: if leaving the EU & Single Market is a disaster, why would Scots vote to leave the UK Single Market too ( a single market with 3x the economic worth to Scotland than the EU was) with no guarantee that indy Scotland would be able to re-join the EU with favourable terms and quick entry. They would argue it would lead to Scotland’s political and economic isolation.

      I’m just pointing out the Unionists’ obvious argument, not arguing in favour of the UK or full EU membership.

      (My view is the SNP should have tried to win indy while we remain in the EU, then allow Scots a vote on EU / EFTA etc as part of post-indy elections or referendum questions).

      SNP strategies / policies have been consistently flawed. Poor choices of SNP candidates hasn’t helped either. Election results prove that.

      If the SNP are our only hope of indy, then they need to learn from their mistakes and get new strategies.

      It’s clear Nicola Sturgeon for all her good abilities, is not a political strategist, but a leader does not have to be good at everything. She could have people close to her who have these skills: Ideas people. Strategists. People willing to take the political initiative, not just react to what the UK Govt does.

      I’m sure there are politically imaginative people, ideas people, strategists within the SNP, but it’s clear they are not the people whose ideas have been listened too since 2014. The people at the top must take the blame for that.

      The inspirational and exciting Indy campaign that fired up public involvement has, since then, been equalled by campaigns that have gone as far in the opposite direction.

      The SNP have plumbed the depths in lacking ideas, lacking a strategy, lacking passion and lacking commitment in the campaign for independence.

      If replacing the SNP as the leaders of the indy movement is not an option at this stage, then either the SNP need to make radical changes or we should prepare ourselves for another Lib/Lab Scottish Govt in 2021 and all the most important EU “devolved” powers being controlled by WM.

    152. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Just as a matter of interest and some satisfaction. Very good Sunday Herald yesterday. Has it wakened up again?

    153. Proud Cybernat says:

      The view from Craggy Island…

      http://imgur.com/a/PL7LG

    154. Tinto Chiel says:

      Anent the Queensferry Crossing: wouldn’t it be nice to see the bridge festooned with saltires and EU flags for the ceremony?

      But I sense the stench of the tomb: and Lo! Zombie Brown slouches towards Queensferry to be born……

      And Winston Smith produces another article showing BLiS_______d have always supported the QC project.

    155. Pitchfork says:

      Corbyn DIDN’T say Scotland was a nation of England. He said “…Nations, and regions of England “.

      His visit was patronising, inept and dishonest on many issues. There are many things to be angry over.

      But this imagined

    156. Pitchfork says:

      Corbyn DIDN’T say Scotland was a nation of England. He said “…Nations, and regions of England “.

      His visit was patronising, inept and dishonest on many issues. But let’s not take offense over things he didn’t say.

    157. Robert Kerr says:

      I have stated before that I am not a member of the SNP although I vote for them as the best chance for independence.

      I am, however, a supporter of the European Project and have worked in The Netherlands, France and Italy and also have undertaken shorter work visits to Norway, Austria and Spain. I have worked with Europeans from Germany, Poland, Serbia and Romania.

      I am proud of my European Citizenship and do not wish to lose it.

      If there is no timeous referendum and due to the inactions of the SNP I do lose my Eurocitz status then I shall be very angry!

      Please take note Nicola!

    158. heedtracker says:

      Big Phil says:
      27 August, 2017 at 11:37 pm
      We are all being fecked with our clothes on , these barstewards are out tae crush us.
      @ Heedtracker.. you the one on the bike on youtube ??? lol

      Haha!

      It was, nt. Wish it was though.

    159. heedtracker says:

      Tinto Chiel says:
      28 August, 2017 at 10:33 am
      Anent the Queensferry Crossing: wouldn’t it be nice to see the bridge festooned with saltires and EU flags for the ceremony?

      If you can be arsed, this morning’s BBC r4 vote tory Today show has a very UKOK beeb gimp thing on the new bridge. Classic tory beeb propaganda, void of any Scots voice, Scotland mentioned once, no SNP mention, no Scots gov mention, royals grovelling, English opinion, the whole UK lot, just after 6.30.

      Its a British bridge but its fun to see massed ranks of beeb gimps struggle with it all.

    160. Stoker says:

      That photo of the crowd looks like 2 coach loads worth, and the odd local straggler or three curios to see what’s going on.

      Would have been great if someone caught them all getting back on the coaches and following Jezza’s coach straight back down south.

    161. Calum McKay says:

      Corbyn will split the Labour Party.

      He could not get elected when facing Mrs May a cowardly paper tiger. When the new tory leader emerges the press will hail her or him as the second Churchill, the nation’s brexit enforcer and Corbyn eliminator, etc, etc.

      Labour will be back to ferrets in a sack.

      It need not be like this for Scotland, the uk politcal cycle sees the tories in power for two thirds of the time or labour imitations of the tories for the remaining third implementing tory policies including waging wars.

    162. heedtracker says:

      The SNP are going to deliver an indyref, so I’m told. Well, they promised to in their manifesto, so independence should be the focus, not elections, or Mr Corbyn.”

      No Colin A. You know full well by now, SNP manifesto explicitly states, Scotland has the RIGHT to hold referenda, if something like Brexit happens.

      Considering you cut n pasted the manifesto section on referenda in the SNP manifesto, why are you ignoring your own cut n pasting?

      So dull you are, Colin.

    163. McDuff says:

      Colin Alexander 10am.

      Broadly agree with you post. I might add it would have been nice if the SNP had turned up for the last GE as it was all about independence.

    164. Tinto Chiel says:

      Heedtracker: “If you can be arsed, this morning’s BBC r4 vote tory Today show has a very UKOK beeb gimp thing on the new bridge. Classic tory beeb propaganda, void of any Scots voice, Scotland mentioned once, no SNP mention, no Scots gov mention, royals grovelling, English opinion, the whole UK lot, just after 6.30.”

      That’ll be the daily Effacing Scotland feature, I think. It can be replaced by the Monstering Scotland one, depending on editorial requirements.

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 28 August, 2017 at 7:19 am:

      “I have to say, I agree with others above, that Tommy Shepherd is totally out of sync with the support. The SNP will be finished, if they sit back and let brexit happen.”

      Oh! Here we go again today with, “It’s all the fault of that Tommy Shepherd and the SNP, by the anti-SNP moaners”. These moaners are worse than the actual Brexiteers. At least the Brexiteers are not pretending to be indy supporters.

      In your whole diatribe there is only one item of truth and it is NOT your repeated claims that, Brexit is real“.

      First of all Brexit is totally impossible for Britain, (per se), cannot be exited from the European Union for Britain, (per se), is not a member of the European union.

      The Republic of Ireland is a member state and The Isle of Man, plus the two other Crown Protectorates, are only associate members of the European Union and Westminster only governs the United Kingdom part of Britain so cannot take, “Britain”, out of the European union.

      Secondly your claim that Brexit is real is total balderdash and your claim, if it indicates anything, only indicates you haven’t got a clue what you are talking about.

      The Westminster controlled media, (best described as the Westminster Propaganda machine), keeps chuntering on about the many, many things they want their imagined, “BREXIT”, to include but never mention the little fact that the present situation, as correctly reported this very morning but not given much oxygen by the propaganda machine is that, “Formal ‘BREXIT’, (that’s United Kingdom Exit), talks are due to resume in Brussels, later, with, ‘BRITISH’. (that’s United Kingdom), negotiators urging the European Union to show, ‘flexibility and imagination’.

      BREXIT, (that’s UK), Secretary David Davis wants to broaden discussions to include trade.

      But the EU says there has to be progress on the issues of citizens’ rights the Irish Border and the, ‘Divorce Bill’ before talks can widen.

      Both sides have said “there is no real prospect of a breakthrough in this third round of talks.

      (Bolding is mine.).

      The truth is that there is absolutely no prospect that the idiotic claims of the Brexiteers will ever be acceptable to the European parliament and thus the only deal on offer is the hardest of hard attempts at withdrawal of the Westminster government from the treaty they signed up to with the European Union – i.e. they leave the EU and thus break the terms of the treaty they signed up to when they joined up.

      However, there are things that are never mentioned and they are factually and legally clear – but never mentioned as such by the propaganda machine.

      The legal title of the Westminster Government is, “Her Majesty’s Government of HER United KINGDOM”.

      The United Kingdom is the result of, “The Treaty of Union”, of 1706/7, and is a treaty that united two, equally sovereign, independent kingdoms that had their crowns on the same person’s head.

      It is NOT legally a union of four countries and today it does not even actually run as an actual union of any kind.

      It functions as the de facto parliament of the country of England, even although there is no actual, elected as such, parliament of England.

      Yet Westminster runs EVEL, (English Votes for English Laws), but there is actually no such thing as an English only vote. There is no one elected as a parliament of England MP, (they are all elected to Westminster as members of HER MAJESTY’S Government).

      Yet Westminster has set up three devolved parliaments in the three non-England countries of the United Kingdom, (Not united Country), while operating as the, not elected as such, de facto parliament of the country of England.

      So these, so called, BREXITEERS are nothing more that confidence tricksters who imagine they can also pull the wool over the other 27 member states of the EU but these 27 other member states are having none of it. All the above only explains that your claim, “BREXIT is Real”, is balderdash.

      When push comes to shove all the EU parliament needs to do is affirm that the member state that is threatening to leave is not a single country but is, as it describes itself, a BIPARTITE UNITED KINGDOM, and one part of that United Kingdom has democratically voted to remain as a member of the EU and that legally the people of Scotland are sovereign and thus the sovereign will of the people of Scotland is to remain an EU member state.

      If the Kingdom of England, all three countries of it, still wants to walk away from Europe without any deal whatsoever, (and probably not paying the, “Divorce Bill”), then no one can stop them. They can, though, allow the Country/Kingdom of Scotland to continue as the legacy member state with appropriate renegotiation of the terms to suit the changed circumstances.

      Ergo, if they do not leave they do not require to re-join and the EU needs not rewrite much of its laws and regulations due to a United Kingdom exit. In effect the EU can rule that the UK ceased to exist when Westminster began the devolved parliaments while illegally setting England up as the de facto parliament of England.

      Do you honestly imagine that the members of the European Parliament are idiots or fools?

      I’d warrant they see the real facts a damned site clearer that your average Briton as they have not been sopping up the Westminster brain washing all their lives.

    166. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…would have been nice if the SNP had turned up for the last GE as it was all about independence.”

      Actually, it was all about the British Nationalist parties telling Scots they won’t be allowing them a vote on their constitutional future.

    167. Capella says:

      I thought in my earlier comment, which Stu has quite rightly removed, that this was an evening meeting and that everyone must have been watching TV so didn’t turn up.

      But a daytime “rally” at Leith Links with fewer than 100 attending and most of them bussed in for ten minutes according to an eye witness is pure dead embarrassing.
      http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sq53p0

      Obviously spin and lies isn’t working for the Unionists any longer. Which is good news for those of an independent mind.

    168. Dan Huil says:

      I wonder how many in the “crowd” were bussed in or were already part of the latest britnat messiah’s entourage?

    169. Scott says:

      Sorry O/T but if this was not serious I would have a good laugh.

      According to a letter in the P&J the UK would be in surplus if it was not for mismanagement of the economy by the SNP,also we should also be grateful to fellow Britons for £1750 for each of us per annum.

      I don’t know how to do links so all you computer buffs can find this on the letter page yourselves.

      Poor old Scotland we really are a basket case to some of these people.

    170. Brian says:

      Three perfect paragraphs of spin.

    171. Meg merrilees says:

      Heedtracker/Tinto chiel

      I heard the British discussing The Queensferry Crossing this morning.Apparently it’s anew bridge due to open this week.
      I think it’s a quiz to try and guess where it is?

      They interviewed two english sounding people – granted one of them is the chief Engineer and a female, (East European sounding),
      so no clue there.

      It seems that someone called Nicola Sturgeon will ‘switch the lights on’ on Wednesday on this new bridge, the tallest in Britian,
      Doesn’t she have something to do with Scotland, maybe it’s in Scotland?

      Then thousands of people are being allowed to walk over the bridge for a couple of days before The Queen finally opens it
      still not sure where it is? ..final clue coming up

      Tape played of BBC report of Bessie opening the Forth Road Bridge 53 years ago and a mention of the iconic Rail Bridge.
      Answer: It’s somewhere in Scotland where there are already two other bridges. Why do they need another one/

      Amazed they even mentioned Nicola on the radio. They don’t mention her AT ALL in their written article on the bridge which is now tucked away on their Edinburgh page.

      Come on Donalda – what’s happened to your pledge to ensure there’s no impartiality!

    172. Flower of Scotland says:

      Tommy Shepherd,s opinions are his own and not the SNPs.

    173. Effijy says:

      You can clearly see that from around 60 people
      Visible in the picture, that 20 or so are standing
      Off the main group, not wanting to be a part of it.

      So can we agree that the Leader of the Westminster
      Labour Party on a sunny weekend in Scotland’s
      Capatal City, was able to drum up around 40
      Labour supporter,s some of whom travelled up
      From England.

      I watched an under 10’s football match in the rain that
      Same day and we hasd 60 people watching.

      Maybe if Jeremy had brought a ball with him, he could
      Have got more of s crowd, but I suppose Ed is focus
      is on Ballroom Dancing these days?

    174. Cuilean says:

      It’d be interesting to know how many FOI requests BBC SCotland make in Scotland compared to similar FOI requests in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.

      I rather suspect BBC Scotland’s FOI requests will be triple or quadruple their BBC counterparts’ FOI requests in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.

      I read this on twitter’s @itrustinsnp regarding Corbyn’s orchestrated Leith Links rally numbers:

      “This was comment from a lass who was in area of Leith Links when photo of Corbyn & so called public crowd was there…sounds like it was just like May’s set up photoshoot, members and activists of the party bussed in to look like members of public.

      “Omg. I walked past this going to see grandson at football, we went past and about 20 folk at a stall. During the match we saw folk walking from a coach on links, heading to stall…..about 50 folk. I joked about it being Jeremy Corbyn. We heard a little cheer ….ten minutes later the ‘crowd’ all headed back to their transport . If I’d known it was him I’d have taken photos. Damn….pathetic rally like!”

      British nationalist parties really must think, up here, our heads button up the back!

    175. Flower of Scotland says:

      Richardinho at 9.06am

      We already have a mandate for another referendum.

    176. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I’m broadly in agreement with your post re: Scotland and the EU.

      But you need to tell your SNP Scottish Govt that too, cos they’re no listening.

      Since March 2017 the line from the FM is a Single Market – non-EU membership – compromise position being offered to the UK Govt, with no indyref if that deal is done.

      That flies in the face of Scottish sovereignty and democratic and sovereign right of the people of Scotland voting to remain in the EU by 66% approx of those who voted.

      EU, not single market compromises. The People are sovereign, not the FM. As the UK have no right to ignore that referendum result, neither does the FM. She has no mandate to negotiate anything less than FULL EU membership for Scotland. But she is doing it anyway.

    177. Brian Powell says:

      It’s perfectly clear and simple: Corbyn wants Scotland to be run by Westminster so that the Tories can easily decide policies for the law, NHS, Water, Education as they are in control of Westminster the majority of the time.

    178. Gillz says:

      Ha ha – what a turnout!! I suppose he’ll be expecting a Glastonbury welcome at the Glasgow Rock Festival – I hope they give him pelters 🙂

    179. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      “Sturgeon offers to shelve independence vote in return for soft Brexit”

      Where’s the respect for the sovereignty of the Scottish people in that?

      Here’s the proof: http://archive.is/ijRik

    180. Jack Murphy says:

      ClanDonald said at 12:08 am this morning:

      “John Boothman “left” his job at BBC after being caught bullying Margo McDonald’s daughter.

      Oddly the BBC failed to cover the story.”

      Thanks for reminding Scotland just exactly what the BBC in Scotland is like.
      Here’s an Archived link to the Record [Scotland’s Champion].

      “…..The development came after it emerged Boothman had an official grievance upheld against him after he was taped making a series of offensive remarks about camerawoman Zoe MacDonald……..”

      http://archive.is/kviEp

    181. ronnie anderson says:

      The sunday times reinventing Frank Carson’s catch phrase [ its the way we tell em ] . I’ve seen mair people at a whelk tall in the barras on a pissing day .

    182. liz says:

      I didn’t think I could detest Corbyn more but Jesus – 3rd world cities!

      When SLAB were in charge Glasgow had the poorest regions in the UK, now it’s northern England with the poorest areas.

      I do believe the north has Labour MPs.

      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/mar/10/communities.britishidentityandsociety

    183. Stoker says:

      A wee birdie tells me that Slabber failure James Kelly was on GMS this morning and apparently, wait for it, he wants funding to help “fight anti-sectarianism.” 😀

    184. crazycat says:

      @ liz

      Archived version of your Guardian link:

      https://archive.is/AZR5G

    185. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says at 11:04

      …”When push comes to shove all the EU parliament needs to do is affirm that the member state that is threatening to leave is not a single country but is, as it describes itself, a BIPARTITE UNITED KINGDOM, and one part of that United Kingdom has democratically voted to remain as a member of the EU and that legally the people of Scotland are sovereign and thus the sovereign will of the people of Scotland is to remain an EU member state….”

      But Robert, what you’re suggesting is the EU arbitrarily recognises Scotland’s Sovereignty, which sounds great, except that currently our own Scottish Government doesn’t even recognise Scotland’s sovereignty, since it has steadfastly refused to recognise Scotland’s Remain majority in 2016 as a constitutionally sovereign edict from the people which has to be respected. Europe will not recognise Scotland’s sovereignty unless formally asked to by Scotland, because without that instigation, it has no mandate to interfere with internal UK politics.

      Don’t misunderstand, IF Scotland did make the issue a constitutional matter of sovereignty, then I firmly believe Europe indeed move quickly to recognise Scotland. And if Europe recognised Scotland, then all the countries who engage with the EU would recognise Scotland too. Their “Trade Deals” would see it happen by default. But that’s the crux of the argument. When, if ever, does the SNP plan to light the touch paper on the issue of sovereignty?

      For as long as Westminster is recognised as the sovereign seat of UK government, then Scotland is a perpetual state of peril and denied the benefit of a sovereign veto on Westminster’s madness; whether that’s Brexit, or going to war with Spain over Gibraltar. Until we stop respecting Westminster’s faux Parliamentary sovereignty, no other country is going to stop respecting it either. It all comes down to us.

      If Scotland wants the powers that are part and parcel sovereignty, and if we want foreign governments to formally recognise Scottish sovereignty, then our “devolved assembly” at Holyrood has to grow into its shoes as Scotland’s sovereign government. We MUST start demanding recognition of Scotland’s sovereignty, and that means recognising Scotland’s choice to remain in the EU.

      The subjugation of Scotland’s sovereign Remain vote in 2016 has to be THE watershed event. There isn’t enough time to formulate a different constitutional stand off and play for a better position, and even where there was enough time, you would struggle to come up with a more practical and definitive keynote issue than Scotland being Brexited against its democratically expressed sovereign will.

      Europe has been waiting since day one of Brexit for Scotland to present the EU with some kind, any kind, of a sovereign interface which is competent in law, and robust enough to be making binding deals and agreements.

      You mention when Push comes to Shove, but I believe we are already there, and have been here for months. This is Zero hour…. Or at least the SNP’s Autumn Conference is.

    186. Legerwood says:

      More on the ‘slow train’ story that the Herald has closed to comments. This one from the Guardian which at least mentions that trains have to stop at stations thus slowing journey times

      http://archive.is/nzKKi

    187. Craig P says:

      Yesindyref2 – the press association cant even get the slowest rail journey in Scotland ‘as the crow flies’ right… which is surely Wemyss Bay to Largs…

    188. Phronesis says:

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/britains-road-perdition
      More bad news about Brexit that might have been foreseen if our stellar political class of UKOK had a clue and ability to forward plan.
      The UK will be a vassal state connected to the EU like Norway -without the social cohesion wealth or oil of Norway ( because the other vassal state Scotland had its oil wealth mismanaged).

      Indyref2 end of 2019/early 2020 – thats plenty of time to organise and galvanise the grassroots independence movement.

    189. Turnip_ghost says:

      “He is our elected leader after all”

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Didn’t stop you guys the first time!

    190. I wonder how many of those on the left such as Cat Boyd who believe voting for a Corbyn Labour party will achieve Scottish independence.

      Actually realise that neither Labour in Scotland nor Corbyn, if he were to lose the next general election, wouldn’t be unhappy at having reduced the number of SNP Westminster seats and saw Scotland continuing to be governed by the Tories at Westminster.

      This is what in essence I believe Corbyn’s rallies are all about here in Scotland, he doesn’t really care about our country, he is out to destroy the SNP and put an end to the case for Scottish independence.

    191. Andy-B says:

      I really hope those crowds, and I’m using the word crowds, loosely, were indicative of Corbyn’s misplaced jaunt north of the border.

      Staying on Corbyn, I see it only took him over a year to realise that a hard Brexit will be a disaster for the economy.

      His party is still intent on renewing Trident, Corbyn is of course fleeting, Scottish independence will be forever.

    192. Robert Kerr says:

      The man from C and A reads Severin Carrell in the Guradian in January and believes!

      Please keep up at the back boy!

    193. colin alexander says:

      @ Breeks

      Regarding your response to Robert Peffers:
      28 August, 2017 at 12:09 pm
      Robert Peffers says at 11:04

      “When push comes to shove…”

      Spot on. I totally agree. I hope others will think more about this too, especially those in the SNP and Scot Govt.

    194. Liz g says:

      Andy-B @ 12.44
      Took him decades to work out he should try to be Prime Minister!
      I am still wondering if he thinks it’s just a retirement plan…
      Otherwise !!!! whit wiz he watin fur?

    195. The Proctor Lewis says:

      Any discussion about Corbyn’s labour party chances should take cognizance of the fact that in 2017 Labour under Corbyn lost nearly 400 councillors and control of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire county council.

      Being the rebel and waving a clenched fist was ok when he was an adolescent, but he is an old man, where is his gravitas, his statesmanship, his political aims, all I see is tokenism and wishful thinking.

      He really is a backbencher, a substitute.

      But I do like him. Good to be in the trenches with, but bloody fatal if he was the leader sending us over the top.

    196. Andy-B says:

      O/T apologies.

      Forgot to add, are there any photos of the Dunfermilne indy rally? The media appears to have completely blanked the rally unsurprisingly.

    197. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I suspect that if you want to know the answer @Cuilean says at 11:31 am

      “It’d be interesting to know how many FOI requests BBC SCotland make in Scotland compared to similar FOI requests in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.”

      You’re going to have to submit your own FOI to each of the respective administrations.

      An FOI to the BBC will just get you the standard “We don’t have to tell you, Charter and all that you see.” that they use to avoid answering awkward questions.

      I suspect the answer would be heavily weighted in favour or FOIs submitted to Holyrood though.

      Still it passes as “investigative journalism” also known as “EssEnnPeeBaad” at the State Broadcaster.

    198. Abulhaq says:

      Corbyn is a BritNat. The Sunday Times plainly recognises a fellow traveller. Neither has much relevance to modern Scotland. Both represent the tedious politico-cultural rut our nation must escape.

    199. Andy-B says:

      Liz-G

      On Corbyn, I read somewhere that Corbyn’s run for Labour leader was a dare by his close Labour chums. Apparently his friends in Labour had all ran for leader and failed, and now it was his turn.

    200. Sarah says:

      @Breeks 12.09

      Might a petition to Scottish Government help to make a difference? Using your words and sent round all Yes groups, National Registry etc etc so there are tens of thousand signatures.

      Petition to be delivered by a march, perhaps – needn’t be 500 miles!

    201. Petra says:

      @ joemcg says at 10:35 pm …. ”Totally agree with Rock and some other posters. A golden opportunity was lost in the immediate aftermath of the EU referendum. God knows why Nicola and the party dragged their heels and didn’t strike while the iron was hot. Fannied about and we lost the greatest chance since 1707. Extremely annoying and maybe unrecoverable.”

      Why on earth would Nicola Sturgeon have called for a Referendum at that time Joe? How does that make sense?

      55% of Sovereign Scots had voted to remain part of the Union less than two years beforehand.

      62% of Scots who actually voted, voted to remain in the EU but how many of them voted to remain in the EU as part of the Union, NOT an Independent Scotland? That was the question that they responded to after all. More than anything how many of them were actually Independence supporters?

      38% of Scots voted to leave the EU.

      With an overall turnout of 67.2% it’s clear that 33% of Scots didn’t bother to vote at all. How will they vote in a future Independence Referendum?

      The bottom line is that Nicola Sturgeon would have been taking a MASSIVE gamble with our future if she had called for a referendum at that time, which could have seen us, if we’d lost, out of action for decades to come, Nicola Sturgeon standing down as FM and maybe even dissipation of the SNP or Holyrood itself. There would also have been ”Now is not the time” on her request to hold a referendum, and I’m sure that MANY people would have agreed with that, plus Nicola Sturgeon having to convince people with stats that Independence was favourable for Scotland along with stats showing that remaining in the EU was favourable also. How would the MSM have dealt with that one? Given her the time of day? I think not.

      Nicola Sturgeon is the FM of Scotland. That means that she has to consider the views of ALL Sovereign Scots: Yes and No supporters, Remainers and Brexiteers and, for example, EU nationals.

      We all know that she and her party want Independence but that’s not going to happen until more than 50% of Scots want it too. Some say that 50% of Scots have already voted for the SNP but that’s not to say that they wanted Independence. Some of that 50% are more focused on the ‘freebies’ that the SNP have to offer.

      In other words she is trying to steer us through stormy waters whilst being bombarded by many enemies, including MANY who reside in Scotland. It’s also important to point out, imo, that as soon as she requested another Independence Referendum (13/03/2017) she was thrown a curve ball by May calling for a General Election (18/04/2017) …. 5 weeks later.

      May stated that she had come to this decision whilst on a walking holiday in Wales (11 -16th April) however she slipped up on the One Show (1:38 mins in) …. ”when we were going through the process of triggering Article 50 (29/03/17) it just became clear that other parties were looking ahead to disrupt negotiations and I just felt it was important to have an Election to get a clear mandate..” That sounds to me as though she had made up her mind following Nicola Sturgeon’s request (2 weeks later) to try and scupper it by holding her Election. The one that she repeatedly said that she wouldn’t have. That Election was a General Election, not a Referendum, hence many people who want Independence voting for Corbyn in an attempt to quash the Tories.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S99-3C16SA

      IMO, Nicola Sturgeon is doing as she said she would do that is waiting for the Brexit ‘deal’ to become clear. As an example through her waiting we can already see that many EU nationals in Scotland will vote for Independence now. The next few months of Brexit clusterfock should see our support rise to an even greater extent.

      She was interviewed on television last night about Labour now deciding that they wanted to remain in the single market / Customs Union for a transitional period. She said ”forget about the transitional period. Staying in the SM / CU …. PERIOD.”

      And just to say that it’s a shame to see so many posters being influenced by Unionists on here. Everytime that they, (so-called Independence supporters) complain about Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP they are losing us support. She is working her butt off for us. The least that we can do is champion her in public, that is IF you actually want Independence at all.

      ……………………………..

      PS .. Just reading through the latest posts and see the comment ”The subjugation of Scotland’s sovereign Remain vote in 2016 has to be THE watershed event.”

      As already pointed out 38% of SOVEREIGN Scots voted to leave the EU, 33% of SOVEREIGN Scots didn’t vote in the EU Referendum and we have no idea of how many of the 62% of SOVEREIGN Scots who voted to Remain want Independence at all. Stop trying to muddy the waters. More so turn everyone against Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP: The ONLY party capable of getting us Independence. Not that I need to point that out to you, as you know that full well. Don’t you?

    202. Davy says:

      FIT DEE MEEN ?? are you saying Jeremy Corbyn has been up in Scotland ????? fit why did nabody tell me. The very least somebody should have put it on labourhame, instead I have to find it out on Wings.

      Its a bloody disgrace.

      Speaking of bloody disgraces, I hope someone recorded the James Kelly show this morning on GMS. The lady presenter must have thought all her Christmases had came at once. James Kelly was outstandingly bad, he brought new meaning to the saying “thick as a plank”.

      But give him his due no matter what question he was asked, he was going to answer whatever question he felt like answering.
      Aye Forest Gump has finally got a playmate.

    203. liz says:

      @crazycat – thanks I was so angry I forgot to use archive.

    204. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 1.15

      Very well said. Whole heartedly agree with you.

    205. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Petra said 1:15pm.

      Doubters find yourselves a big mirror and gi’ yerselves a right good talkin’ to.

      “We’re on our way from misery to happiness today – uhuh, uhuh!”

    206. ronnie anderson says:

      @ James Barr Gardner 2.18am YOU CANAE COUNT ma Wings Flag + Estelada attached wiz oan the webbed fencing round the stage & we Anne Jenkings fae Dundee wiz at the stage front tae , lots of Wingers & Lurkers , everybody I spoke to expressed concern for the Rev .

      Many Thanks ( ah could hiv killed him for no letting me know sooner ) Jock Scot for returning ma wee fruit knife from the last event AUWB ( ave hud it fur 20+ years ) I thought I had seen the last of it .

    207. Robert Peffers says:

      @Richardinho says: 28 August, 2017 at 9:06 am:

      “I do feel that an opportunity was missed with the past General Election. I said at the time that the SNP should fight it on the basis that a majority would give a mandate for independence.”

      Oh! Dear! It’s all the SNP’s fault again then is it, Richardinho?

      “If there’s one thing that has been established it’s that referendums are the gift of the UK government, so why should we have to dance to their tune?”

      Balderdash! What is your evidence for that absolutely incorrect statement, Richardinho?

      No one can prevent the Scottish Government, or anyone else for that matter, from holding a referendum on anything they please.

      You quite obviously have no idea of what you are pontificating about but you choose to take the YoonYoonist propaganda at its face value.

      The definition of a referendum is, “a general vote by the electorate on a single political question that has been referred to them for a direct decision.”

      In fact single political referendums are used by many, many organisations. A local Community Council might refer a single political question on whether they should plant Winter Flowering Pansies in the Community Council Flower Tubs or store the tubs away over Winter.

      The Daily Liar might refer a single political question to the electorate that the Offensive Behaviour at Football Games legislature be rescinded.

      Westminster has no legal powers to prevent them doing so. All Westminster can do, and has done, is announce that they will or will not respect the democratic will of the electorate on any specific political issue.

      Any government that plays such dangerous political games risks the wrath of a general public majority turning against that government.

      I’ll quote you just such a typical newspaper style referendum that has periodically raised its very ugly head during my lifetime.

      In times of either no big news story, or of some particularly heinous crime, some newspaper editor or another will beggar the question of their readership, “Should Capital Punishment be reinstated”, and invariably the readership votes to reinstate hanging. Yet no Government to date has taken the bait and reintroduced hanging. However, this may well have seen some voters change how they voted at the next election.

    208. Liam says:

      I don’t often draw political stuff but I thought this might be an appropriate place to post this:

      https://goshwowcomics.wordpress.com/2017/08/17/201/

    209. gordoz says:

      Well we’ve had the imperial masters visit in the past; now if you believe Boothman, this was our visit from Lord Vadar 🙂

    210. crazycat says:

      @ liz at 1.26

      You’re welcome.

    211. Chick McGregor says:

      Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
      Yer guff, we’re no absorbin’!

    212. Robert Peffers says:

      @McDuff says: 28 August, 2017 at 10:58 am:

      ” … I might add it would have been nice if the SNP had turned up for the last GE as it was all about independence.”

      Pish! McDuff, pure unadulterated pish.

      Just read again what you posted but post the words NOT the initials.

      “I might add it would have been nice if the SNP had turned up for the last GENERAL EELECTION , as it was all about independence.”

      Here is the definition of what a GENERAL EELECTION , actually is:-

      “A general election is an election in which all or most members of a given political body are chosen. These are usually held for a nation’s primary legislative body, as distinguished from by-elections and local elections.

    213. ClanDonald says:

      @ Jack Murphy

      Thanks for that, I can’t use the archive due to my child safety settings, apparently it lets over 18 stuff through.

    214. Dr Jim says:

      Yes we have no bananas says Jeremy:

      I’m quite surprised by the amount of people NOT in the SNP who complain about the SNP not doing what those people want and they damn well want the SNP to do it now or they’ll, well they’ll what?

      Well they’ll flood the internet and flog their crap to anyone who’s daft enough to fall for it whether Kezia pays them to or not

      And they’re an amazing bunch of people too, they claim lifelong loyalty and membership of the party but will drop them like a ton of bricks because according to their new found wisdom the SNP have just become rubbish in numerous ways like, money grabbers,permanent devolutionists, secret Unionists, comfy Westminsterers and so on

      On occasion I’ve asked these people to show me their membership ID and funnily enough they never seem to have it on them for one excuse or another, now me,I carry mine in my wallet proudly at all times because I certainly couldn’t memorise my number

      A couple of words to young people about Mr Corbyn “Are you Feckin deaf” The man wants exactly the same thing as the Tories but just doesn’t want to say it because he knows you wont vote for him if you click on to the truth so he says stupid mind numbingly mental things like “I want a Brexit that’ll preserve jobs” well that’s code for thousands of jobs are about to be lost and I’ll capitalise on the Tories failure to keep those jobs, instead of telling the truth and fighting to keep us from getting into that position in the first place

      Jeremy Corbyn is a complete and total fraud who only cares about votes for power, and not the power to vote or we wouldn’t be in this position supported by wee nobody non entities in Scotland like Cat Boyd (who the hell is she anyway) who only want to ride on the coat tails of anybody that’ll get her Ass noticed

      Wake up young folk Independence is the only way, and the only way to get it is to stop bickering like the Unionists want you to do and support and vote SNP
      then you’ll have a country of your own where your vote actually counts as opposed to voting for Inglish political parties whos very existence is about stopping you doing just that

      Wings over Scotland has Mixers Trolls and Bampots on it trying every day in every way to confuse the issue but many of us are real Yessers and you’ll have to sort that one out for yourselves but if you pay close attention they do trip themselves up quite often depending on their instructions from their high command (that’s Kezia BTW)

      Is she smarter than you?

    215. Gay Indy Boy says:

      Corybn may be the new Messiah but he’s a Londoner that knows very little about Scotland.

      Given he’s never had tartan briefs, he’d be better off sticking to prancing round Hyde Park in his Burberry boxers.

    216. Capella says:

      Petra 1.15 – excellent post. I hadn’t heard TM’s comment on The One Show about “other parties” disrupting negotiations being the trigger for the GE in May.

      I do wish the critics of the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon would come up with something constructive instead of complaining about perceived failures in the past. We have more than enough opposition in the entire British Establishment and its many functionaries in Westminster and the media.

    217. jfngw says:

      BBC Scotland lunchtime news start with ‘A BBC investigation…’, this is revealed to be based mostly on FOI request, then scour round for some comments. I beginning to think that the newsroom in Scotland is a group sitting round a desk dreaming up what new FOI they should be requesting this week.

      This of course is cheap journalism for the BBC but expensive for us tax payers who have to pay for the staff servicing these requests. Remember the BBC is VAT free unlike the major emergency services in Scotland. It’s about time large corp’s like the BBC pay the full cost of too many FOI requests.

    218. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Kerr

      There are videos of Nicola Sturgeon offering the compromise deal.

      Are you claiming they are all faked too?i

      Either all it’s all a conspiracy of lies, fake videos of Angus Robertson and Nicola Sturgeon or it’s true: The SNP have treated the Scottish electorate the same as the UK Govt, by failing to respect the sovereign will of the people in Scotland, as Scotland democratically voted Remain.

      So, how, if you accept that’s the decided will of the people, as the SNP does, then seek to negotiate that away cos the UK Govt won’t recognise it?

      Basically, the SNP has hoisted the white flag on Scottish sovereignty.

      As Breeks also explained, that referendum result was non-negotiable. A line in the sand, not to be crossed. The people of Scotland have decided to Remain in the EU.

      As Robert Peffers eloquently explained, ultimate sovereignty lies with the people in Scotland, not with Queen Elizabeth or the Scottish Govt or FM.

      The raison d’etre for the SNP is to stand up for Scottish sovereignty AND Scottish sovereignty when it is exercised via a democratic vote.

      They are now doing the opposite of that. Not only is the SNP now not fighting for Scottish sovereignty, they are completely undermining it by acting as if the democratic decision of the people can be negotiated away by the FM.

    219. galamcennalath says:

      So Corbyn and Labour are edging closer to a ‘stay in the single market’ position on Brexit. Some reports suggest this means, permanently. The emergence of this position could be an indication that the Establish have finally concluded they need a soft Brexit outcome.

      Any sane Tory (some did back Remain) should be pro single market. Some clearly are.

      The UK Tory negotiating team seem to be asking for an unreasonable ‘cake and eat it’ deal with all the advantages of the single market, but taking none of the responsibilities. This is either stupidity, or some sort of preparation to jump to a very soft, or very hard, Brexit. The latter being what the hard right always wanted.

      Any Tory government will appease big business and The City. Although the mad bad right fringe dream of deregulated business Utopia, most talk seems to be of retaining the single market.

      So, where are we headed?

      Another question perhaps worth considering is what matters most in London? Implementing Brexit or retaining the Union? Since a hard Brexit and a continuing Union seems incompatible, perhaps a soft landing is inevitable IF their Union really matters to them.

      For all Corbyn’s crass ignorance about Scotland, he and his party may well have been tasked with saving the Union.

      It will either be a crash and burn hard right Brexit, or sanity (and perhaps vested interests) will prevail are it will be soft.

      TBH … I haven’t a clue what happens next, wish I did!

    220. colin alexander says:

      The SNP claim to believe the Claim of Right. The people are sovereign.
      They believe Scotland voted to Remain in the EU.

      Thus, there is nothing to negotiate. Scotland has already decided.

      The SNP’s role was to defend that decision.

      It did – at first. Since March 2017, they have capitulated and instead sought terms such as a Single Market compromise.

      They had no democratic right to compromise. No democratic mandate.

      If they have accepted the situation that the Scottish Govt isn’t the govt of Scotland at all, but a powerless Mickey Mouse sham, a fake govt, that merely administers WM Govt at Holyrood, fair enough.

      That being the case, the FM still has no right to seek to undermine Scottish Sovereignty by negotiating terms for Scotland leaving the EU against the settled democratic and sovereign will of the people.

    221. Breeks says:

      Petra says at 1:15pm

      “…As already pointed out 38% of SOVEREIGN Scots voted to leave the EU, 33% of SOVEREIGN Scots didn’t vote in the EU Referendum and we have no idea of how many of the 62% of SOVEREIGN Scots who voted to Remain want Independence at all. Stop trying to muddy the waters…”

      Petra, we don’t have to know. It’s you who wants to muddy the issue. Keep it simple FFS!

      In 2016 Scotland delivered a referendum majority for staying in the EU. If Scotland’s people are sovereign, then NOBODY, neither Theresa May nor Nicola Sturgeon, can overrule the sovereign will of the people. Defend the sovereignty or lose it, and if you lose it, then good luck in 2018, 2020, 2022, getting Westminster to respect any regional referendum as “sovereign” under a UK constitution.

      In Brexit, Scotland holds an impregnable fortress in our properly expressed sovereign will to stay in Europe. We shall not be moved! We don’t have to physically move an inch in any direction to be standing with both feet on rock solid ground.

      We currently have all our Sovereignty ideas back to front. We don’t need to establish our own sovereignty, but what we do need to do is begin challenging Westminster to clarify what sovereignty and mandate THEY have, what right THEY have, and what democratic authority THEY have, to subjugate Scotland’s sovereign will.

      Westminster is the instigator of Brexit, and if Westminster wants to exit Europe where Scotland has chosen to remain, then let them, but let the onus for terminating the Union lie with Westminster. Give Westminster the ultimatum that proceeding with Brexit is the constitutional act of vandalism which breaches and thus terminates the Act of Union. Put all the onus for Independence onto May. If she wants to test her Parliamentary sovereignty to destruction, then let us simply make it easy for her.

      We should be tilting this issue so that Brexit is not just the UK deciding to leave Europe, but England and Wales deciding to materially terminate the Act of Union which defines the UK. We are not the “separatists”, – they are. We are not forcing a constitutional crisis onto the UK, – they are. We are not driving a coach and horses through the Act of Union, – they are. If they really want to go ahead with their profoundly stupid Brexit, then go ahead, but be aware that as a direct consequence, Scotland shall consider the action to be a wilful, deliberate, and irremediable breach of the Union. Go ahead if you must, but you have been warned of the consequences.

      The SNP should have the route towards the constitutional collapse of the Union lined with sign posts and warnings; Danger lies ahead! Slow down! This direction is one way only!

      Why should the SNP repeatedly vex itself over having an adequate mandate to do nothing but stand still and stay where we already are??? Theresa May has NO democratic mandate, NO sovereign mandate, nor popular mandate to drag Scotland out of Europe. It is HER mandate which requires the merciless scrutiny!!!

      Theresa May is the one who should be getting the constitutional education that every step she takes towards Brexit, which disregards the Scottish vote to Remain, violates the Treaties of Union, and pushes the Union closer to breaking point. How can Theresa May slag off the SNP when it is her own I’ll considered, reckless policy which is the driving force behind destruction of the Union?

      Petra, you are looking in too many cracks in the pavement for enemies of the SNP. You’re no longer watching where you’re going.

    222. Dan Huil says:

      It’s going to be a hard brexit. Anything else and we can expect social disruption in England. If it comes to that it will certainly contribute to the disintegration of the so-called united kingdom – as long as Scotland stays above it all.

      I believe, however, a hard brexit will be obvious well before Spring 2019. Indyref2 will happen before the next Holyrood election.

    223. Petra says:

      @ colin alexander says at 2:28pm ……..

      ”As Breeks also explained, that referendum result was non-negotiable. A line in the sand, not to be crossed. The people of Scotland have decided to Remain in the EU…… The SNP have treated the Scottish electorate the same as the UK Govt, by failing to respect the sovereign will of the people in Scotland, as Scotland democratically voted Remain.”

      Here we go again. The tag team (and a few hangers-on) are in full flow on here today: As pointed out previously 38% of Sovereign Scots voted to leave the EU and 33% of Sovereign Scots didn’t vote at all. That = 71% of Sovereign Scots.

      62% of those who actually voted, comprising 67% of the electorate, voted to Remain in the EU as part of the UNITED KINGDOM. How MANY of THEM support Independence?

      Once again how MANY of them support Independence? How MANY Sovereign Scots support Independence? That’s the CRUX of the matter, the CRUX that the SNP are having to deal with and in doing so are NOT treating the Scottish Electorate the same as the UK Govt at all. I’ve never come across such a load of old tommy-rot. Grow up why don’t you. Better still it’s high time that you invested in a calculator and then toddle off and ask your bosses what tack you should take next. The same goes for your Unionist supporting pals on here.

    224. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 28 August, 2017 at 11:39 am:

      “I’m broadly in agreement with your post re: Scotland and the EU.
      But you need to tell your SNP Scottish Govt that too, cos they’re no listening.”

      Why do you bother coming on Wings and making a fool of yourself, Colin? You really are wasting your time, not that I mind that, but you are also taking up valuable bandwidth with totally transparent arguments.

      In the first place you do not seem to grasp the reality of what is happening and have swallowed whole the totally false propaganda that is the output of the Westminster unionists and their propaganda machine.

      Yet I’ve no doubt you are reading, watching and listening to the same news items that I am but I can read the facts and reject the claptrap by quite simply careful reading, listening and viewing.

      I already quoted you an example and how it should be analysed – yet it whooshed right over your head – as usual.

      I’ll highlight the news item again and analyse it yet again.

      I’ll have to type it all out for you as the item I’m reading is on the text service on Radio Scotland’s channel on the TV frequencies. I cannot thus just cut & paste it.

      The heading reads:-

      “Brexit talks to resume in Brussels.”

      “Formal Brexit talks are due to resume in Brussels later, with British negotiators urging the EU to show, “flexibility and imagination”.

      Brexit Secretary David Davis wants to broaden discussions to include trade.

      But the EU says there has to be progress on the issues of citizens rights, the Irish border and the, “Divorce bill”, before talks can widen.

      Both sides have said there is no real prospect of a breakthrough in this third round of talks.”

      So lets just see what is actually being reported:-

      “Formal Brexit talks are due to resume in Brussels later, with British negotiators urging the EU to show, “flexibility and imagination”.

      This is basically just, “Look we both know this is bullshit, but give us a break or Theresa will not be pleased with us”.

      “Brexit Secretary David Davis wants to broaden discussions to include trade”.

      this means – “o.k. so you won’t budge on our previous points. So can we forget them for the time being and talk about possible free trade deals for the UK?

      “But the EU says there has to be progress on the issues of citizens rights, the Irish border and the, “Divorce bill”, before talks can widen.”

      This means – “No.”.

      “Both sides have said there is no real prospect of a breakthrough in this third round of talks.”

      This means, “There is still stalemate”, and the talks are going no where because the EU holds all the cards and the UK do not know what to do about it.

      The basic story is that there is no way the EU is going to allow the UK to get any easy deals on free trade, open borders, freedom of travel between the EU and UK.

      Nor will the EU allow the UK to walk away without paying for the problems they are costing the EU. Thing is the EU has no way to force the UK to pay for walking away from the EU and they will dig their toes in so as to have a big stick to whack the UK with.

      Then, at the conclusion of the negotiations there will be the big, big surprise the UK seems not to see looming out of the dark. The initials UK tells the truth that the United Kingdom is exactly that – not a single unified country as Westminster thinks of itself – but legally it is two equally sovereign KINGDOMS and one of those kingdoms has voted to remain while the other, while flying false colours, regards itself as the country of England with three English dominions in tow.

      Does Westminster imagine the EU doesn’t know the true setup and the actual legal set up of the Westminster Establishment?

      The phrase Perfidious Albion has connotations throughout the World but no where more aware that in France & Germany.

      Now, Colin, you may not be aware of the true history behind the French Revolution and the hands of the English so called Secret Service in that revolution. Not surprising you may not know for most of the general public don’t even know the parts played in the Treaty of union of the English Spy Master, Sir Robert Harley and the English undercover agent, Daniel Defoe and the double Agent William Paterson in forcing the Treaty of Union upon the Scots.

    225. t42 says:

      Andy-B says:
      “I see it only took him over a year to realise that a hard Brexit will be a disaster for the economy.”

      Was tactical-he was pro brexit for the uk election, now he is anti brexit for scotland. About 30 people and a dog turned up at the circus booth to see the uncredible 2 faced man.

    226. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Breeks,

      Sovereign Scots will STILL need an indy referendum to – let’s just say – ratify the split from the UK.

      You seem to be angling that Scotland can just walk away from the Union because we’re a sovereign people and it’s rUK that’s forcing us to leave. If we were to just walk away (because we have the sovereign right) then try telling that to buster-blood-vessel, hard-nosed, ultra core, dyed-in-the-wool, blue nosed Yoon. They’ll tell you in no uncertain terms to “Shove yer sovereignty up yer arse!”

      They don’t give a flying shit about sovereignty. We MIGHT have a chance of keeping the lid on such numbnuts through a democratically won referendum.

      “We’re a sovereign nation and we’re walking away from the UK” even if it may be technically possible simple isn’t realistic. Not unless you want a whole load of trouble. Which we don;t. Which is why we should be doing it via the referendum route – a means which even the numbnut yoons can understand.

    227. Petra says:

      ”Petra, you are looking in too many cracks in the pavement for enemies of the SNP. You’re no longer watching where you’re going.”

      Oh I know where I’m going alright without the help of people like you it would seem. You say ”Keep it simple, FFS.” What’s more simplistic than knowing that we require over 50% of Scots who want to remain in the EU additionally supporting Independence? And what you don’t seem to get Breeks (or more than likely do) is that Nicola Sturgeon will do her utmost to ensure that we’re not dragged out of the EU (EFTA?) at all by winning the next Independence Referendum based on the majority of Sovereign Scots demonstrating at the ballot box that they support her, want Scotland to be Independent, unlike people like yourself who come on here trying to confuse and create division: Turn readers against the only party that’s ever going to get us our Independence. The only party that’s ever going to get us our Independence is a ”simple” concept to get your head around too and that’s the one that I’m focusing on.

    228. Petra says:

      @ Proud Cybernat says at 3:12 pm … ”Breeks sovereign Scots will STILL need an indy referendum to – let’s just say – ratify the split from the UK.

      You seem to be angling that Scotland can just walk away from the Union because we’re a sovereign people and it’s rUK that’s forcing us to leave. If we were to just walk away (because we have the sovereign right) then try telling that to buster-blood-vessel, hard-nosed, ultra core, dyed-in-the-wool, blue nosed Yoon. They’ll tell you in no uncertain terms to “Shove yer sovereignty up yer arse!”

      They don’t give a flying shit about sovereignty. We MIGHT have a chance of keeping the lid on such numbnuts through a democratically won referendum.

      “We’re a sovereign nation and we’re walking away from the UK” even if it may be technically possible simple isn’t realistic. Not unless you want a whole load of trouble. Which we don’t. Which is why we should be doing it via the referendum route – a means which even the numbnut yoons can understand.”

      I’m pleased to see that you’ve kept it ‘simple’ PC. How MANY sovereign Scots exactly would respond to people like Breeks with “shove yer sovereignty up yer arse!” That’s what we’ve got to find out, the numbers, through an Independence Referendum not walking away with the potential of creating a Civil War. Thank God we’ve got Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP on our side, that’s all I can say.

    229. colin alexander says:

      @Petra

      Those who choose not to vote don’t get counted either way. So, that point is irrelevant.

      Are you saying then that indyref was invalid as neither Aye or NO counted in indyref, cos neither achieved 50% plus of all the electorate? (NO achieved 46% of the electorate.) And practically every democratic vote would also be invalid.

      No disrespect, but that point is clearly invalid.

      Who mentioned independence? I’m talking about membership of the EU, you are no independent if you are in a Union. Sovereign aye, but no independent.

      Democracy, Sovereignty and EU membership. That’s the topics, no indy.

      I don’t know how many now support sovereign indy. Nobody does. I just hope if it comes to a vote, the majority will support indy.

      ———————————————-

      Accusing me of being some sort of state sponsored fifth columnist just undermines the people making such stupid assertions. I’m no calling you or anyone a bampot. But reading such remarks as 77th Brigade, MI5 etc makes me think people are paranoid.

      Stu is the heart of the site. It’s what HE says that sometimes rattles the UK Establishment, not what people like you or I say in comments Below The Line (BTL).

      I doubt MI5 would even waste their time reading any of our comments nevermind hiring someone to attempt to wind up a single commenter to the site.

      If you showed me evidence that an MI5 agent cared one iota what you said in comments, I would fall off my seat in shock.

    230. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting posts, including that from Petra which I laregely agree with. But what we should remember is that while we are united by a strong wish for Independence, we are quite naturally disunited about just about everything else – including party loyalty, if any. Many are totally non-aligned, but “lend” support to the SNP as the vanguard for Independence. Just as the Green party itself does.

      So here’s a thing. Is the SNP’s aim to have 11 MPs at Westminster as in 1974, something every Indy supporter cheered at at the time? I remember projecting that the SNP could have as many as 35 in the next (1979) GE. Is it to have 2 MPs, a result of the 1979 Devolution Ref Labour “rebels” sell-out with their 40% of electorate rule, including the dead and non-existent?

      Is it to have 6 MPs to keep the flame burning and be able to put in written questions to which written answers must be given? Is it to have 56 MPs out of 59 to show the world that Indy is not dead and buried in Scotland? Is it to have 35 MPs, against the 24 total for Unionists? Is it to have 59 MPs in 2021, so that there is not one single Unionist MP from Scotland?

      No, it is to have 0 MPs at Westminster from any party in Scotland, as Independent Scotland will clearly NOT be sending MPs to a foreign (giggles) parliament.

      And that’s what the SNP need to make clear to every Indy supporter.

    231. Snode1965 says:

      According to the BBC the UK deficit to March 2017 was £52 Billion.
      According to GERS the Scottish deficit is £13.3 Billion.
      Therefore according to Westminster we are responsible for 26% of the entire UK deficit.

      Even if this figure is remotely accurate, surely it implies gross neglect of our Economy by Westminster.

    232. Poji says:

      With obligatory Bagpipe Jock signalling. He probably toured a Tartan factory and Distillery as well. The fucking hack that he is.

    233. colin alexander says:

      @Petra

      Indy is just one way of exercising sovereignty.

      At this point it’s about sovereignty – not indy.

      That’s what the Unionists say: If you want to be sovereign, you need to vote for indy and if you don’t choose indy, then you choose to NOT be sovereign.

      It’s not true.

      Are the members of the EU sovereign? Aye.

      Are they all indy? NO, they are in a European Union. Which means they cede some of their sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg. The EU makes laws the members must abide by, with the member law having to be in compliance with EU law.

      But the member states keep their ultimate sovereignty in that they can say NO. They will haventhe power of veto too in areas such as the Brexit negotiations.

      Wallonia, a Belgian regional parliament had the power to veto the Belgian Govt’s approval of an EU trade deal, in turn that was vetoing the EU trade deal. They have that power though not independent.

      Scotland is a sovereign kingdom. We are a sovereign people already without indy, but the SNP talk the talk for a wee while before bending the knee to their WM masters.

      The SNP are not standing up for Scottish sovereignty.

      I take onboard the issue it was a UK referendum. But the SNP said what Scotland said is what counts for Scotland.

      If the EU disputed Scotland as a distinct unit from the UK voted to stay in the EU, then hold a Scotland only EU vote to settle that one, one way or another, but the SNP themselves and people on here say that’s no necessary.

    234. Glamaig says:

      @Snode1965

      if you look up the alleged deficits for Scotland, Wales, and NI, and add them up it comes to about 2/3 of the entire UK deficit. They would have us believe that 15% of the UK population is spending so much we are causing 2/3 of the UK deficit! Aye right.

    235. heedtracker says:

      Come on Donalda – what’s happened to your pledge to ensure there’s no impartiality!

      These kinds of Scottish things are a big deal for all beeb gimps. Big projects like the new bridge can tap into and uplift Scottish state self assurance and ofcourse national pride.

      So of course, beeb gimpery pisses all over this bridge and drapes it all with union jacks.

      Another good example of visceral beeb gimpery like the above is Andy Murray, soon to be, Andy Murray who.

      The other side of this kind of britnat propaganda…if you were born in the 60’s, you grew up being ranted at, England won the World Cup, in the 60’s, for 5 decades at least.

    236. Breeks says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      28 August, 2017 at 3:12 pm
      @ Breeks,

      Sovereign Scots will STILL need an indy referendum to – let’s just say – ratify the split from the UK.

      No, they don’t need a referendum to be sovereign. They are sovereign. Even if they held a referendum and chose not to be sovereign, they would still be sovereign.

      Even if they don’t want to be sovereign, vote against being sovereign, they still ARE sovereign which leaves no vacancy for anybody else to pretend to be sovereign in their place. Living your life in denial of sovereignty does not empower some other party to take that sovereignty from you.

      Let Westminster try dismantling our sovereignty. I believe they will fail. Let us Independentists try dismantling Westminster’s faux sovereignty. Go about it the right way and I believe we shall succeed.

      Right now however, it is we “Independentists” who are doing a splendid job of rubbishing and dismantling our own sovereignty, and leaving Westminster with a free run at an open goal and disillusioned Independence movement looking the other way so Westminster can do whatever the feck it pleases.

      More powers? Tsk.
      Full Fiscal Autonomy? Tee Hee.
      Sewell Convention? Snigger snigger.
      Broadcasting? Guffaw! Guffaw! Guffaw! No wait! Promise them Broadcasting, Scottish 6, but then say there’s no demand for it!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Do the same for another referendum.
      But they actually want another referendum. Do they? Make them beg. Make them keep begging so we can call them beggars, and keep it up until we’ve finished their oil.

    237. yesindyref2 says:

      Just developing that theme, the 40 Labour MPs were called the “Feeble Forty”. Well, nobody could accuse the 56 became 54 SNP MPs of being feeble, they did their best.

      But from the beginning of their term at Westminster, I knew they would be able to accomplish nothing basically, because the Tories with the help one way or another, of the Labour MPs would make sure they didn’t. So for instance, when the SNP tried twice or three times, to get FFA for Scotland during the Scotland Act debates, they were voted down.

      So they became the “Futile Fifty-Four”, I think the SNP should have, and still should, capitalise on that for the sake of Indy, or at least the wide YES movement should. They should not only admit that when the SNP had 54 / 56 out of 59 MPs, they were able to achieve nothing for Scotland, they should make a point of it.

      With 54 MPs at Westminster out of 650, the Futile Fifty-Four, Scotland could do NOTHING. Only with Independence can Scotland decide our own destiny.

    238. Breeks says:

      …and it doesn’t matter a damn if it was a UK referendum.

      Only a broad 10% of that “UK” electorate were sovereign citizens. The other 90% were subjects of their Sovereign’s parliament.

    239. heedtracker says:

      Scotland is a sovereign kingdom. We are a sovereign people already without indy, but the SNP talk the talk for a wee while before bending the knee to their WM masters.

      They are our masters, the 2014 vote said keep it that way. Facts are not your strong suit are they Colin:D

      Pool, share, across the UK, strength, security, punch things above our weight, er, safety, love, family, federal UK, lead dont leave, all Bettertogether highlights, off the top of my head.

      Yoons I know just do not want the risk Colin. They have what they have, they know what they’re getting, they know their future life in the UK will be as it is now. If its not, well how bad can it get, we survive Snatcher Thatcher didnt we.

      I think the SNP have picked up on that very rapidly.

      All you’re doing Colin, mimicking the particular British tory BBC thing, war of attrition on the SNP, til eventually enough Scots suckers get sick of them, may work too.

      Its creepy and sleazy and very beeb tory but its worked in the UK past quite well.

      Although BBC turned on PM Brown in a flash and he barely last 2 years. BBC creeps had no probs using anti Scots English bigotry to get shot of Crash too, the one eyed Scottish idiot.

      Hope everytime Clarkson comes to Scotland, someone pisses in his chips. But as usual, SLab idiots will still pucker up and kiss the English high tory ring, because we’re British, all of us!

      Political theory, unit 101.

    240. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers,

      As I’ve said, I enjoy some of your posts. I’ve read about Defoe and Darien etc. I know that.

      The EU didn’t want to know Scotland in 2014. As a concerned EU citizen, I wrote to the Europa legal advice service of the EU. I asked them if Scotland would remain a member of the EU, if Yes won.

      Their lawyer wrote back and said No, the UK was the member state. Indy Scotland would not retain member state status, so would need to apply as a new member.

      From memory I think they quoted some region that seceded from Portuguese rule and so lost it’s EC membership, so the same would apply to Scotland. ( Wikipedia quotes Algeria).

      You may disagree with that legal view. The legal answer said it’s advisory not a ruling. But to me, I took it to mean the EU don’t give a monkey’s toss about Scottish sovereignty.

      Maybe it’s different, now the UK wants out. But if you think the EU has some sort of loyalty for Scotland, then I think you are mistaken. The EU charms Scotland only when it suits the EU.

      Our relationship with the EU should be the same. Be for the EU, but only if it benefits us. Not because of one-sided Scottish loyalty to the EU that is not reciprocated, except when it suits the EU.

    241. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Breeks

      “No, they don’t need a referendum to be sovereign.”

      I know that, Breeks. But we DO need a referendum to, once again, become an independent state. You are essentially advocating a UK walkout ’cause it’s oor sovereignty ball and we’re no’ playing any more.

      Have you ever stopped just ONCE to think of the utter carnage that would erupt all across Scotland if the Scottish Govt told Westminster, “We’re off out of yer stinking Union and, by the way, we’re sovereign so we’re no’ even bothering aboot huvin’ a referendum.”

      Aye, sure. Recipe for carnage across Scotland. I do wonder why you keep pushing this? Is that what you want? Carnage all across Scotland?

      A second (third?) referendum is the only fair and democratic means to resolve Scotland’s present constitutional predicament for everyone in Scotland.

      In the words of the FM: “There WILL be a second independence referendum.”

      Accept it. Rant over.

    242. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Artyhetty at 8:31 am.

      You typed,
      “Anybody got any quotes about him saying the whole idea of a new bridge was SNP bad? Actually a list of what was said by various britnats about this vanity project, (absolutely essential, in other words, infrastructure for Scotland and anyone travelling and trading with to and from Scotland).”

      You may find this link from 2012 interesting.

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/snp-dismiss-as-hypocrisy-labour-demands-for-forth-bridge-apology/

    243. heedtracker says:

      Our relationship with the EU should be the same. Be for the EU, but only if it benefits us. Not because of one-sided Scottish loyalty to the EU that is not reciprocated, except when it suits the EU.”

      Another profound lie Colin A.

      If you actually listen to and read what our EU MP’s say about Scotland and the EU, first thing they all make clear, EU never gets involved in issues like Scotland.

      On top of that, the EU never gets involved in issues like the Brexit ref. Its just not what the EU is for or does. There was no EU Project Fear last year, was there? Nothing whatsover.

      Likewise the EU stays out of Catalonia completely too.

      I’d guess EU keeping out of national issues among member states, is an EU constitutional thing but just like you Colin, I’ll wing it and say it does actually say and include that.

    244. colin alexander says:

      @ Heedtracker

      What voting paper did you get in 2014?

      Are you saying the indyref paper asked: Westminster is your masters. Do you want WM to stop being your masters? and people voted NO.

      You clearly interpret the indyref question that way. Others clearly interpreted it to mean indy v devo-max.

      Legally, factually, what it asked was YES or NO to Scotland being an independent country. Nothing more. Nothing less.

      Unionists, Jim Sillars and you can claim No means a vote FOR subservience.

      Much as I admire Jim, he was wrong. If he meant to say that’s how a No vote would be falsely portrayed by Unionists – and mistakenly accepted by some independists, he was totally right.

    245. heedtracker says:

      Unionists, Jim Sillars and you can claim No means a vote FOR subservience.

      I am not claiming subservience. Nice dodge on your EU hoohaa too. 2014 effectively went with the status quo, 500+ English, Welsh and NI MP’s decided all the big stuff for Scotland.

      And that’s all there is to it. The Vow was ofcourse historic fraud but that’s how it goes in teamGB. Always has done, always will.

      George Osborne popped up to Edinburgh, 2014. Told his Scotland region, forget about using sterling for your currency, had a good lunch and flew back to London.

      Osborne’s treated like a tory god now, by massed ranks of his beeb gimps in particular.

      Was he any good as Chancellor, did he reduce the deficit, pay back some national debt, make the rich even richer, euthanise thousands and thousands of disabled and sick people?

      Doesnt matter, in the tory teamGB zone. Cons still won anyway and won again last year. And the EU did not get involved either, for shame.

      This is what 55% of Scots also agreed to be governed by, because we’re British and family and we are frightened of Scottish indy.

    246. Hamish100 says:

      Colin Alexander?
      Are you on overtime.? Give yourself a wee break. Wee all need it

      Alternatively would you like to formall propose what a future Scotland would like as looking at your previous posts you seem to complain about the past but not to put forward any real ideas for the future other than snp baaaaad.

      Weird.

    247. colin alexander says:

      @heedtracker – we can agree that Scots voted No to indy in 2014.

      So, now we are where we are.

      As I’ve repeatedly said. It would be foolish to repeat a YES NO / Leave Remain type of referendum.

      They fail to define what exactly a person is voting FOR.

      The whole principle of a referendum is to empower the people. With vaguely worded referendums they do the opposite.

      They cheat the people and more than ever it’s left to the politicians to decide what a NO vote means or a Leave vote means.

      And that’s very often NOT what people thought they were choosing.

    248. Robert Graham says:

      Colin – if nothing else yer entertaining and your particular view of the world sometimes is thought provoking . Your assurance that no one has or is taking an interest in this and other indy sites is reassuring .
      We can all rest easy in our beds tonight .

      Eh this big circle at Cheltenham is it a giant indoor horse racing track ? makes sense cant have the jockeys getting wet now can they .

    249. Dan Huil says:

      Anyone know what happened to the idea of people in Britain being offered “associate citizenship” by the EU after brexit happens? I can’t find anything new. Quite like the idea, might take it up just to annoy britnats.

    250. Legerwood says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 4.26pm and Artyhetty @ 8.31am

      For completeness on the issue of Labour/LibDems and the issue of the Queensferry Crossing here are some links about what they were saying BEFORE the 2007 election when it was their decision to make

      This is what Labour were saying about it in 2006 when it was all their idea of course

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6115244.stm

      And in February 2007
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6359665.stm

      Posted those links further up the thread but worth repeating.

    251. Petra says:

      @ Proud Cybernat says at 4:22 pm ….”Aye, sure. Recipe for carnage across Scotland. I do wonder why you keep pushing this? Is that what you want? Carnage all across Scotland?”

      The ‘Sovereignty’ kids still at it on here? Giving it laldie now. On here trying to disrupt the site / undermine the SNP. The problem with dealing with them is do you just ignore them or respond and end up being part of the ‘disruption’? Fall into the trap of helping them to achieve one of their objectives? On the otherhand if you just ignore them their posts are left there for all to see, with no rebuttal, and be influenced by. Anyway enough said on that subject as they’ll no doubt begin to scunner readers on here with their ‘SNP Baad – Sovereignty’ mantras and hopefully at least one of them will get bombed off sooner than later.

      ……………………………………………..

      @ Capella says at 2:13 pm …. ”Petra 1.15 – excellent post. I hadn’t heard TM’s comment on The One Show about “other parties” disrupting negotiations being the trigger for the GE in May.”

      I reckon that the Election was called with one main aim in mind Capella and that was to damage the SNP / Independence movement. What other parties was she talking about? The Libdems, lol. The Labour Party? Definitely not. At the time that T May called for the Election everyone and their granny reckoned that the Labour Party would get slaughtered. In other words they weren’t a threat to her …. at that time. Another reason proffered for the snap Election was that prior Electoral fraud could lose them over 20 seats, however I’m sure that they knew that these cases wouldn’t go forward (other than the one scapegoat), due to the network that they control, as per people like Craig Murray.

      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/05/crown-prosecution-service-colludes-tory-election-fraud/

      The fact that she slipped up on the One Show and stated that this was her plan in the lead up to triggering A50 at the end of March (at the latest 2 weeks after NC’s announcement) , not as the result of an ‘epiphany’ that struck her in Wales weeks later, tells me that she sees the probability of us winning completely viable and of course a great threat to all they ‘hold dear’. That’s why the MSM is ramping up the ante, Stu / Wings is being targeted, imo, and this place is being flooded with Union supporting Nationalists.

    252. Robert Louis says:

      Heedtracker at 508pm,

      Well, even I’d pay good money for that. Saw his show last week, I am sure he could fill any venue in Scotland. Maybe quite a few in London too. 🙂

      https://stv.tv/news/politics/1396580-alex-salmond-in-talks-to-take-his-festival-show-on-tour/

    253. heedtracker says:

      And that’s very often NOT what people thought they were choosing.

      Everyone knew exactly what they were “choosing,” 2014 Colin. Its pretty awful but there you go.

      Its probably why so many YESers and SNP voters just went a fuck it, when Teresa called her snap GE, which she had vowed to never do.

      Who can blame them for not bothering with a n other tory roaster like Teresa’s crapolla election of England, England, England?

      I worry about you lot sometimes, what with all these cunning stunts you try and pull online.

      Does it never occur to any of you that if this is what it takes to stop Scotland becoming a nation state again, its not working and it’s certainly not good karma Colin A.

      All YESers online never do what you lot do Colin, ever, Ok i did a bit, with my EU constitution forbids any EU/Brussels in anything like this farce union with England.

      It can be fun but even so Colin, if youre on the clock, make sure you get the overtime too:D

    254. Wull says:

      Corbyn’s total ignorance of Scotland, and of what the UK and the Union actually are, legally speaking, only confirms what we know already: Scotland now faces a straightforward choice between a continued existence as an independent country or – frankly – extinction.

      There is now no middle ground. All the Unionist Parties and their various leaders, at different levels, and including their Scottish leaders, are intent on extinguishing Scotland altogether.

      There was a time when it was possible to be fiercely and proudly Scottish, while still being loyal to the UK. I know many readers will find that incredible, but there are many examples of this throughout the 19th Century, and well into the 20th. Walter Scott may be taken as a prime example. However, holding the ‘double identity’ in such a way has become increasingly impossible since the 1980s, although the difficulty began to emerge earlier than that.

      That impossibility is now total.

      Unfortunately, many have failed to realise this, especially among the generation to which I belong (1950s etc.). When they were young such a double identity was easily possible, and even widely presumed.

      Those who don’t think about such things much, or with any depth, still believe that this is a credible identity to stick to. That, in a way, is who they are, and they haven’t much appetite for changing now, at their age. What they don’t realise is that the ‘Britishness’ with which they identified not only ‘ain’t what it used to be’, but no longer exists. It has disappeared altogether.

      The new ‘Britishness’ which has replaced it is a horrible beast. As far as Scotland is concerned it could even be described as a ‘self-devouring monster’. Its intent is to devour – that is eliminate – Scotland in such a way that it will no longer exist.

      There is nothing genuinely new in this. What has happened is that the Imperial Beast which was well hidden in the past, or which seemed only to have other peoples and countries in its sights, not Scotland or the Scots, has come home to roost. What we are now seeing – what is being uncovered – is what always lay underneath all the time anyway, even though it was hid from view. Scotland was in fact the first victim of that Imperial beast. And the most important. Because only when Scotland was tamed, incorporated and, in that sense, devoured, could England – sorry, I meant to say the ‘UK’ – go on to conquer the world.

      The problem is that too many Scots of these olden days colluded with this, and even profited – or, rather, seemed to profit – from it. ‘What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his own soul …?’ Many of us identified with the very thing that wanted only to kill us.

      Of course, the ‘killers’ did not say ‘we are out to get you.’ On the contrary, it was ‘You need us, and we’ll help you.’ It was also ‘Let them have their fake Scottish identity, let them even wallow in it, just so long as it has no real teeth, and no reality. People need illusions: these they can keep, so long as it helps them serve our purposes.’

      Historically England always wanted the elimination of Scotland and, despite the terms of the Act of Union, England’s assumption was that to all practical ends this had been achieved in 1707. No matter what the Treaty actually said, it was interpreted in England as meaning that Edward I’s policy of 400 years earlier – Edward died in 1307 – had at last been accomplished.

      Scotland, they presumed, had effectively been extinguished.

      The fact that the Treaty said something different from that, and that Scots knew this and interpreted it differently, mattered not a whit. The interpretation (which is to say the assumption) of the larger part would always hold out against whatever the smaller part thought or said. Or so, at least, it was presumed.

      Henry VIII, who pursued his own version of Edward I’s policy a couple of centuries later, had even said as much. Quite explicitly. If Scotland and England united, England, he affirmed – as the larger part – would always dominate and control the whole. Exactly what has happened in ways that are more explicit, and more visible, than ever before, especially during the decades that have followed the 1970s. But it was actually there all along, albeit in a more hidden and camouflaged fashion.

      And it was not just that the English pulled the wool over the Scots’ eyes, which they did, but also that many of us Scots pulled the wool over our own eyes. How? By colluding with the Imperial dream of what had become in fact our Southern Masters, even as we presumed (or pretended to ourselves) that they were our friends an allies (because Treaties, including the Treaty of Union, are essentially alliances).

      There, perhaps, we come to the crux of the matter. Scots presumed they were in an alliance with the English whereas, more or less consciously, the English presumed that Scotland had been conquered by England, had submitted to what they presumed was the ‘English’ crown, and no longer actually existed.

      Scotland, for them, could retain the paraphernalia of nationhood, but it had lost the substance of it. This final victory achieved by the English over the Scots, in 1707, is engrained in the English psyche. And we should not forget it. Jeremy Corbyn is a clear example. It is an unexamined assumption which no amount of exposure to reality is likely to expunge.

      This means that they cannot ‘place’ authentic Scottish nationalism: it has no place in their worldview. That is in the way they imagine their own country, whether they call it ‘England’, as they usually do, or ‘the United Kingdom’, which they occasionally do, using the term as if it was a synonym of ‘England’. Once again, I give you Jeremy Corbyn as a typical example.

      Sorry to say it, but he simply has no understanding whatsoever of the ‘country’, or legal entity, that he seeks to govern. He does not know what it is composed of, or how it was assembled. He has no historical sense – or knowledge – of it at all.

      He reminds me of a very good friend of mine from Brighton who left me gobsmacked in 1979 – I was still young at the time – when I told him that I thought Scotland would eventually become independent. Not only was he horrified, but he spontaneously gave voice to what I said above was embedded in the English psyche. ‘Oh no!’ he said ‘You can’t do that! It’s all we have got left!’

      That is, after the dismantlement of the British Empire in the 1960s, which had begun earlier with the independence of India in 1948, (or still earlier with the creation of the Irish Republic) all ‘we’ – England – ‘had left’ … was Scotland.

      Scotland was the only bit of the English Empire (as he no doubt saw it) still remaining, in 1979.

      We should not always presume that such nonsense is simply ill will. My friend Mike was and is a fine fellow, and we are still friends. There are things in our psyche which we don’t really know about, and of which we are often not fully aware. We don’t know where they come from, or why they are there (who put them there?), or even what they are (they are assumptions, not rationally worked out beliefs), but they do control us, often profoundly. And they often control and initiate our reactions, even visceral and sometimes violent ones.

      These are irrational things – myths and so on – but they remain extremely powerful. That England conquered Scotland in 1707, and Scotland thereby ceased to exist, becoming merely a (peripheral and marginal) extension of England, is one such (English) myth. False, for sure, but an extremely powerful falsehood.

      To be fair to our Southern neighbours, this means they cannot situate authentic Scottish nationalism in any rational schema. For them, if only because they will not face up to the irrationality of their own reaction to it, they presume such nationalism must be a completely irrational thing.

      They also presume it must be some kind of hairy beast, a bogey man, an irruption of the long’tailed diabolic into the midst of their supposedly well-ordered world, mentally centred on their idea of Englishness (and English civilzation) as the best of all possible worlds, the highest human good, than which no better could ever be imagined.

      When one people suppresses another, even mentally, or emotionally, it always fears the one it has thus suppressed. And the idea that the one so suppressed is diabolic and dangerous feeds on that fear.

      (I remember how the Mau Mau were portrayed by the BBC, emphasising their ‘inhumanity’ and never once mentioning that maybe they were fighting for their freedom, or that the British too were perpetrators of atrocities in Kenya. Also the way the likes of Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus were perceived and portrayed … Not that I am claiming any of these were saints – only that they were not the irrational and atrocious ‘devils’ they were portrayed to be, making us all feel reassured in our self-righteousness and pomposity …)

      In any case, all this to say that we need to know what we are dealing with, and up against. Scottish independence would be a huge blow to the collective English psyche. We should not forget this. And we should ready ourselves to be able to deal with it in a humane and understanding way.

      Nor should we be surprised by the savagery and vehemence with which our southern neighbours inevitably resist that blow, doing everything in their power to prevent it from landing.

      Nobody wants his worldview shattered.

      Everybody needs the illusions with which he or she deceives himself; nobody wants to see their cherished illusions, the crutches on which they build their mental universe, smashed to smithereens.

      Such an outcome poses a tremendous threat – however irrational – to their own inner being and identity, to who they are, and even to the universe itself. It’s normal for them to think of such an unleashed and seemingly uncontrollable force (in this case the Scottish National movement) as a monster, and normal for them to resist it by every imaginable means, fair or b(especially) foul. And normal for them to feel fully self-justified in doing so (they are saving civilization as they know it, after all).

      All’s fair in love and war, and this is war, born out of the love of England. Or of a certain (half-baked) vision of who and what England is in the world. A vision of England’s historic, expansionist – ‘civilizing’ – mission, towards the world around her … On other words, to the barbarian peoples ….

      This is the ‘vision’ that spawned Brexit.

      We should not think that England will do anything other than fight our national independence, and right of self-determination, tooth and claw.

      Nor kid ourselves that the negotiations which will follow a pro-independence vote will be a tea-party … That would never have been the case even if we had won in 2014, and now it will be worse still. After Brexit, Scottish independence will be more hurtful than ever to these engrained elements in the English psyche.

      Wounded animals are the most dangerous of all.

      Scotland, after all – to quote a phrase that would have been worthy of Jeremy C himself – is all that England has ‘got left’.

    255. heedtracker says:

      Look Colin. Stinky old Graun can’t even bear to mention the Scottish tory second coming to save this farce union, let alone the SNP, who are now being airbrushed out of UKOK political life and discourse. How frightfully high tory English. Might work, UKOK hackdom has to keep on trying to shut down Scottish democracy. Pretending there is none at all, is one way of doing it.

      http://archive.is/EkXYN

      Other senior Conservatives have suggested the party was so spooked by the Mark Clarke case, in which a young Tory activist killed himself, and the expenses scandal over the use of Tory battlebuses at the 2015 election, that it was felt safer not to try to reconstruct a ground army on the same scale.”

      Tories are such arseholes Colin.

    256. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Graham

      I could accept in 2014 GCHQ ( which I think is what you are hinting at) took a very keen hands-on interest in the independence movement and had infiltrators and agent provocateurs in the indy movement (and managers helping to run BT).

      Now, I think, Scottish independence is put in the file: “Job completed”.

      You only have to read what the SNP say nowadays to see that.

      ——————————————————

      @ Yesindyref2 The SNP boast of their MPs accomplishments. ( They achieved as much as I do on here: getting slagged and derided for speaking up for Scottish interests.

      The SNP boast of the extra powers the SNP won at the Smith Commission. ( Not that they were shafted by Devo-Max and other false BT promises.)

      “Keep ( how can you maintain a situation that has never existed?) Scotland Strong ( When has Scotland been strong since 1707 ?) at Westminster.

      Abbreviate it and it reads as: Keep Scotland at Westminster.

      If they were going to campaign FOR WM, they could at least have been honest enough to say,

      Keep Scotland weak: Keep Scotland under Westminster rule.

      That’s what the SNP campaigned for in 2017.

      When the Tories accused of them of standing for indy, they denied it.

      As an independence supporter who believed the SNP will always fight for indy, I really can’t get over that. I never believed I’d live to see the day when the SNP campaigned FOR Westminster rule.

      __________________________________

      I’m not campaigning for people to abandon the SNP. I’m campaigning for the SNP to fight 100% for Scottish sovereignty being upheld and exercised and for
      the SNP to advise people that the best way to exercise sovereignty is to be independent.

      The 2016 SNP manifesto promised the SNP would again campaign for indy, from Summer 2016 onwards.

      Where is that campaign?

      Down the pan, in the bin. Forgotten about.

    257. Capella says:

      @ Petra – I think you’re right about the reason for the GE i.e. to damage the SNP. They didn’t succeed so I believe they will help Labour to attack the SNP at the next election. That will be why Jeremy Corbyn is so publicly targeting SNP seats in Scotland.

      It may also be why Labour is now floating the possibility of staying in the single market and customs union.

      But from the turnout at the Corbyn rally in Leith, it doesn’t look like the propaganda is working. Labour have been in bed with the Tories for too long in Scotland. I can understand that in England voters have nowhere else to go.

      Here we have the SNP and that infuriates them.

    258. HandandShrimp says:

      The torn faced greeting over the new bridge from Yoon diehards who hate to see anything good happen in Scotland is a sight to behold on Facebook.

      I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they aren’t all fervently praying that it collapses on the first day.

      A terrible thing to be a bitter Yoon and Scotland hater. 🙂

    259. Tinto Chiel says:

      Wull: excellent post, most of which I agree with. I don’t think, for one thing, that many ordinary people who remained in Scotland benefited much from this wonderful union, and our emigration figures are still eye-watering.

      The trouble is, we have now the dangerous distinction of being their Jewel in the Crown, with India gone. Without Scottish assets, England is in dreadful economic trouble and without their “conquest” to boost their sense of superiority and exceptionalism, they will experience a profound psychological blow.

      Even when we vote for independence, negotiations with Perfidious Albion will be fraught. Imagine, for example, if the Borders and Orkney and Shetland narrowly vote No: what an opportunity for mischief-making there.

      It’ll be a sair fecht right enough.

    260. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 28 August, 2017 at 3:39 pm@

      “Who mentioned independence? I’m talking about membership of the EU, you are no independent if you are in a Union. Sovereign aye, but no independent.”

      Tired old lefty mantra, Colin. If that were true than there isn’t a country, state, kingdom or any other form of society that is independent, Not even North Korea.

      If a country is sovereign it enters into agreements by consensus and the EU works by consensus. I’ll quote a simple to understand example. Westminster unionists very often trot out what they claim to be a fact – which isn’t a fact.

      If I had a pound for every time I’ve been told by a YoonYoonist that if Scotland joined the EU, (note they say joined when Scotland has been in the EU since ever there was an EU), then Scotland would have to accept the Euro.

      Question them, though, and they suddenly become tongue-tacked and cannot answer such questions as :-

      Why have the United Kingdom NOT had to adopt the Euro?

      If Scotland leaves the UK union and thus leaves behind only the Kingdom of England will England have to adopt the Euro?

      Why are there several EU member states that have not joined the Euro?

      Why are there non-EU states that use the Euro?

      The point is that the EU asks its member states to adopt the Euro but doesn’t force them to do so because the EU works by consensus. Sweden has never adopted the Euro.

      “Democracy, Sovereignty and EU membership. That’s the topics, no indy.”

      No Colin the topic is Scottish independence and the point that if you are sovereign then you freely agree, (there’s that consensus thing again), but are not forced to co-operate.
      That’s the big difference between the EU & the UK. The EU doesn’t force compliance the UK will not tolerate non-compliance.

      The EU treats its member states as partners while the UK has made itself England treating all others as dominions.

      “I don’t know how many now support sovereign indy. Nobody does. I just hope if it comes to a vote, the majority will support indy.”

      You quite obviously don’t know what sovereignty is, Colin.

      It has several linked definitions:-

      (1) – supreme power or authority.

      (2) – the authority of a state to govern itself or another state.

      As to your assertions that the state security services don’t monitor Wings and the other anti-establishment websites I can only conclude that you are somewhat naïve.

      I spent over 50 years as an industrial Civil Servant and over 15 of those years I was a union rep. I know a thing or two about the United Kingdom Security Services.

    261. Dan Huil says:

      @Wull 5:50pm

      Great post. As britnat brexit stumbles on we are seeing the true ugly face of British nationalism – Westminster, bbc, et al. Aye, they won’t like it when Scotland regains its independence and we must prepare for even more britnat extremism. The fight for Scotland’s independence will, however, be worth it.

    262. Croompenstein says:

      @Wull

      Superb post Wull the kind of post that makes Wings btl what it is and a great antidote to what is becoming increasingly the tiresome colin alexander show….

    263. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Comparing the EU and UK, where is the disagreement between us?

      The EU despite it’s many faults has some vetoes allowed. It also has qualified majority voting.

      The UK has: WM pulls the strings and Scotland (including the SNP) dances.

    264. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says

      … the reason for the GE i.e. to damage the SNP. They didn’t succeed so I believe they will help Labour to attack the SNP at the next election. That will be why Jeremy Corbyn is so publicly targeting SNP seats in Scotland.

      It may also be why Labour is now floating the possibility of staying in the single market and customs union.

      Yes, I think that’s what’s going on, but they hide it all behind a veil of Brexit and Tory versus Labour WM politics. They pretend it isn’t all about Scotland and the future of the UK as an entity, but they all know it is.

      There are obviously two competing pressures.

      Firstly they do take Brexit seriously and all Unionist parties now seem to want to implement it. The debate is how hard?

      Secondly the Indy movement just won’t go away because the screwed up IndyRef1 and its aftermath. For around half of Scots it’s unfinished business.

      But here’s where it gets really complicated and frustrating for them … these two pressures have become intertwined. They know the Scottish Parliament has enough pro Indy MSPs to call IndyRef2 and that is a big problem for them. They can claim as much as they like that IndyRef2 isn’t needed/wanted/mandated but until they get a majority in Holyrood they can’t prevent it.

      That doesn’t stop them chipping away at the SNP and Indy movement in every way they can think of. Clearly Labour are central to preserving their Union. Their strategy is almost certainly to hold out with a mix of ‘Labour are Good’ and ‘Brexit will be soft’ until they can get that Unionist majority at Holyrood.

    265. Artyhetty says:

      I dunno, why does everyone want to get to places mega fast. It’s nice to see where you are going, enjoy the journey. Especially in beautiful, gorgeous Scotland. Yes if commuting you need to get there a bit faster, other than that, enjoy the scenery. It’s weird, people want to travel fast, but for life to go at a nice, evenly spread out, not too fast pace, because the last stop is understandably to be avoided for as long as possible.

      Now, time travel that would be useful, especially because flying is so awful long haul.

      If only we had another decent bridge to carry traffic, people and goods across the Forth to the highlands. Oh wait, what? The british nationalists parties and the Greens all said ‘no, no, no!’ to it? Dearie me. They must be feeling quite daft now, mustn’t they? The Scots press must be calling them out for their destructive, backward thinking on this, no? The Herald?

      Feeling sarcastic today!

    266. yesindyref2 says:

      @Craig P
      I never even though about that, 6 miles in 1 hour 49 minutes AND you have to change train! Shocking, simply shocking.

      Wonder what the train journey time is from Charing Cross (London) to Victoria?

    267. Juan P says:

      @wull

      Cracking post and encapsulates why so many unionists get visibly upset or angry when debating independence.

      We need to focus our energies on debating independence with no voters who don’t have such an ingrained emotional attachment to the union ahead of the next indyref.

    268. Chick McGregor says:

      The comparison was made with trains in London.

      Well all the stations are in London, so the speeds quoted will be the average speed from one station to the next. No passenger pick up time or drop off time included, hence the 70mph + figures quoted.

      Check out the following Kings cross to heathrow (16 miles as the crow flies)

      https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Kings+Cross,+London/Heathrow+Airport+(LHR),+Longford+TW6/@51.500601,-0.4271227,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m20!4m19!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761b10c73c4dcd:0x616f11fed05d6bb9!2m2!1d-0.1322312!2d51.5333335!1m5!1m1!1s0x48767234cdc56de9:0x8fe7535543f64167!2m2!1d-0.4542955!2d51.4700223!2m5!5e0!5e1!5e2!5e3!8j1503944037!3e3

      Less than 20 mph

    269. Artyhetty says:

      re;Briandoonthetoon@4.26

      Thanks, will read that again. Good to go over what was said by the Britnats and the Greens, (shame on them) about things like the new Forth crossing etc. People easily forget, especially as we are bombarded with so much trivia and so many new lies on an hourly and daily basis.

    270. Derick fae Yell says:

      Wull

      Great comment.

      “but also that many of us Scots pulled the wool over our own eyes. How? By colluding with the Imperial dream of what had become in fact our Southern Masters, even as we presumed (or pretended to ourselves) that they were our friends an allies”

      “Peau noire, masques blancs” (Fanon)

      Petra – agree with every word you have posted today.

    271. defo says:

      For the attention of those who willfully ignore the site rules.
      Give it a rest. No need to try and show us how clever you are combatting them.

      “And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. We’ll decide if someone’s trolling or not. But in the meantime, if you think they are, ignore them.

      If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

      Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.”

    272. Petra says:

      ‘Aviemore goes the whole HOG as bikers roar in for the 20th Thunder in the Glen.’

      ‘THEY came, they saw, they spent a fortune and today the Highland resort of Aviemore was getting back to normal after more than 5,000 bikers roared into the area for the 20th Thunder in the Glens rally.

      This annual pilgrimage has developed from a closed event that attracted just a few hundred bikers to what is said to be the biggest of its type in Europe.

      It is organised by the Dunedin Chapter of the Harley Owners Group (HOG), one of two in Scotland, and attracts bikers from all over the world.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/14904489.Aviemore_goes_the_whole_HOG_as_bikers_roar_in_for_the_20th_Thunder_in_the_Glen/Riders starting the Thunder in the Glens Rideout 2017

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH79OgapenQ

      ‘Thunder in the Glen the biggest of its type in Europe.’

      ‘Queensferry Crossing is the longest three-tower, cable-stayed bridge in the world with the longest free-standing balanced cantilever in the world and highest bridge towers in the UK.’

      ‘World Pipe Band Championships in Glasgow. Number one in the world.’

      ‘Edinburgh Festival Fringe, the largest arts festival in the world.’

      ‘Scotland’s Military tattoo said to be the best tattoo / show on earth.’

      ‘Edinburgh’s Hogmanay Party said to be the greatest New Year Party in the world.’

      ‘The Forth Bridge is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.’

      ‘The West Highland Line: The best rail journey in the world.’

      And I’m sure that there’s much more to brag about! What a country! What a people!

    273. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “Has anyone else noticed that individuals on here who constantly castigate the SNP (professing to be Indy supporters) and run down the National never have anything derogatory to say about Labour, Tories, Libdems, the Daily Record, the Express, the Mail, Guardian etc.”

      Some things go without saying, unless one is extremely gullible.

      It is wolves in sheep’s clothing that need to be exposed.

      It took decades for Labour in Scotland to be exposed.

      To think that Labour’s support went up at the last election.

      As if there was any shortage of unionist rags promoting Corbyn, the “independence supporting” The National had to do it as well.

      Instead of doing what the Rev. Stuart Campbell did in this article.

      A majority of Scots are the most stupid people on earth, in my humble opinion.

    274. yesindyref2 says:

      Remembering that list of “paid trolls” by Indy, I think the one thing everyone on it has in common, is that they – we – have been called a troll by somebody, and a “fake” Indy supporter. Perhaps that was its purpose.

      What a load of paranoid crap. But it’s a great way to sow division, and prevent constructive debate – debate which is precisely what the YES movement in its many forms badly needs.

    275. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “The Sunday Herald had a great front page today.”

      It is time to milk some gullible independence supporters again. Every pound helps.

    276. Dr Jim says:

      It used to be @sensibledave now we’ve got THIS GUY who doesn’t want to talk to you, he wants to talk at you about whatever HE wants whilst making his consistent daily point which is SNP Baad but maintaining your interest by claiming to support Independence

      He doesn’t Y’know!

    277. Petra says:

      I reckon that we all knew that this was what Murphy was up to, especially when he arrived in Glasgow with Eddie Izzard.

      ”JIM MURPHY was trying to wind up Yes supporters and make them behave like a “rowdy mob” during the referendum, according to a senior Labour MSP.

      In his new book of diaries, Socialism and Hope, Neil Findlay launches a scathing attack on the former Eastwood MP who led Scottish Labour to near extinction in 2015.

      In extracts of the book – published by the Sunday Herald – which features a foreword by Jeremy Corbyn, Findlay says Murphy “hasn’t a principled bone in his body”. He says Murphy wanted independence supporters to “behave like a rowdy mob so undecided voters will be turned off by it”….

      http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15498539.Jim_Murphy____wanted_Yes_mob_angry____during_indyref/

    278. yesindyref2 says:

      Incidentally, on that theme, good to see an interesting posting from Bob Costello on The National (George Kerevan’s article).

      Bob Costello owns a bus company, and provided a bus and a lot of his time to Indy. The bus was called “the YES bus”.

      Some may remember that Bob Costello posted on Wings and because of Conservative type views was called a yoon troll and an Indy-faker.

      He’s never posted here since.

      https://www.facebook.com/YesDundee2014/posts/943208792397186

    279. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “British Nationalists complain Scottish Nationalists hate the Inglish”

      Councillor Paula Rose is living proof that Scottish Nationalists do not hate the English.

    280. Chick McGregor says:

      Being a 50s Scot myself Wull I concur almost entirely with your post.

      I would add that I think there is also an element of fear, or let’s call it doubt, in the English psyche too. Not so much at the common level but within the intellectual elite some of whom know just how many Scottish intellectual contributions have been usurped and/or buried by their English counterparts in the past.

    281. Petra says:

      @ ronnie anderson says at 7:13 pm

      http://www.facebook.com/Yes2EastKilbride/videos/1395599560478243/?hc_ref=ARRbvtc__y0PPDFrZzuZ378Ekg_EM4Afj9BjfACFV_ZYQO0ELSWOBb4eZXiUY4g_2y0&fref=gs&hc_location=group

      BRILLIANT Ronnie. Thanks for that X

      ……………………………

      The Sunday Herald was excellent yesterday between the expose of Jim Murphy by Neil Findlay and the 4 GERS articles … to name but a few. Great stuff.

    282. Scottish Steve says:

      I used to like Corbyn. I thought he was a genuine alternative for people in England to vote for instead of the two status quo Tory parties. I felt really bad for him due to all the hostile press he was getting. I was rooting for him hard to win the snap election. I wanted him and the SNP to join forces in a progressive coalition.

      I still think he is a principled, well-meaning man but he has recently revealed himself as just another unionist/British nationalist. Such a pity.

    283. Rock says:

      sassenach,

      “Good morning, thought I’d peruse the comments before the ‘man from C&A’ starts his shift of anti-SNP garbage once more.”

      Breeks,

      “I think the SNP is in danger of floundering.”

      sassenach,

      “Yes, I also am hoping for some concrete happenings at the Conference, because, like yourself, I have felt this last while that the Party is not leading as I think it should.”

      So you wanted to post your “anti-SNP” comment before CA?

      If Nicola had not squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen, Scotland would have been almost independent by now.

      Remaining in denial is the worst thing.

    284. heedtracker says:

      Remaining in denial is the worst thing.

      No its Morrison’s own brand veggie burgers Rock.

      Which Scots party will you harangue us to vote for after Scotland independence day, Rock?

      Its fun to ask you in particular, if only because you don’t have the guts to say:D

    285. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2 at 7:51 pm.

      You typed,
      “Bob Costello owns a bus company, and provided a bus and a lot of his time to Indy. The bus was called “the YES bus”.”

      He not only created the YES Bus but provided ‘Business for Scotland’ with their battlebus. If that wasn’t enough, his workshop also created Chris Law’s “Spirit of Independence” Green Goddess fire engine, from a 1958 original.

      You can see a pic of the three vehicles lined up here:-
      https://bobcosblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/yes-vehicles-1.jpg

      ——————————-

      Hi Wull at 5:50 pm.

      You typed,
      “Corbyn’s total ignorance of Scotland…
      Scotland, after all – to quote a phrase that would have been worthy of Jeremy C himself – is all that England has ‘got left’.”

      That’s what we in Dundee would call a topper of a post – nay, I will go further; it’s a Topper, Dandy and Beezer of a post all rolled into one!

      I’m guessing you won’t mind me pasting it into an email to a group of ‘soft Yessers’ I’m cultivating?

    286. Alex Clark says:

      Busy right now and don’t have the time to read all the posts as I usually do but even then once again I noticed 52 references to “sovereignty” by the usual suspects,

      Yes, you Breeks and Colin Alexander, both of you appear to be one trick ponies who are not here to talk of the article about Corbyn but of your own pet subject.

      Get the finger out, let us know your views on Corbyn and his possible influence on the next referendum, I’d appreciate that.

      For months in CA’s comments and probably more than a year in yours Breeks EVERYTHING you have posted is about “sovereignty”.

      I call that distraction, 52 mentions alone so far since you first brought it up Breeks on this topic yet the longest post on this article about Corbyn (on topic) doesn’t mention it once.

      Give us a break from your sermonising please or just take it elsewhere because your both boring the tits off of me.

    287. Alex Clark says:

      Just had a recheck and here are the scores on the doors.

      Mentions of sovereign or sovereignty on this thread = 128

      Mentions of the subject of the article Corbyn = 85.

      Why are we discussing sovereignty time after time and not say Corbyn?

    288. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “Just developing that theme, the 40 Labour MPs were called the “Feeble Forty”. Well, nobody could accuse the 56 became 54 SNP MPs of being feeble, they did their best.”

      What did they achieve?

      A single law passed in favour of Scotland?

      A single amendment to a bill?

      No, they achieved absolutely nothing.

      Doing their best had little effect on the people – 23 of them lost their seats at the following election.

      It is time the SNP stops flogging dead horses and stands for one thing alone – independence for Scotland.

      After an excellent record, they no longer need to prove good governance to the people of Scotland.

    289. Petra says:

      @ colin alexander says at 3:39 pm …. ”Petra ….. Accusing me of being some sort of state sponsored fifth columnist just undermines the people making such stupid assertions. I’m no calling you or anyone a bampot. But reading such remarks as 77th Brigade, MI5 etc makes me think people are paranoid…..

      I doubt MI5 would even waste their time reading any of our comments nevermind hiring someone to attempt to wind up a single commenter to the site. If you showed me evidence that an MI5 agent cared one iota what you said in comments, I would fall off my seat in shock.”

      Where exactly have I mentioned the 77th Brigade or MI5 in my posts to you? I’ve NOT. Stop making things up as you go along and trying to cause trouble on here.

    290. ronnie anderson says:

      @ REV

      Domestos is advertised as killing 99% household germs . I’ll send you some stuff that kills 100% cause this auld house needs cleaned oot of the thread disrupters , you gave short shift to Indy I like other Wingers are more & more frustrated by our squatter Trolls .

    291. heedtracker says:

      Gerry Hassan, sucking that big saggy The Guardian teet.

      “Jeremy Corbyn has been making waves in Scotland, as he has been across the entire UK. His five-day visit has raked in the coverage and crowds, and annoyed his political opponents.

      It wasn’t always so.”

      The things we do to make a buck.

    292. Wull says:

      Hi, Brian (Doonthetoon), at 8.14 pm.

      Thanks for the word of encouragement (or should I say all 3 of the ‘words’ of encouragement!). Thanks also to the encouraging words from so many others on here – Tinto Chiel, Dan Huil, Croompenstein, Juan P, Derick fae Yell, Chick McGregor … Hope I didn’t miss anyone out – thanks to all

      Please do paste and send around my wee post, wherever you like, and to whomsoever might profit from it.

      If you want to tidy up a couple of the spelling mistakes etc. which it contains when doing so, please go ahead. (But please don’t feel any obligation or need to do so, since it doesn’t really matter – if I can’t be bothered to do it, with regard to what I missed when I originally checked it, why should anyone else?).

      There is ABSOLUTELY NO COPYRIGHT on anything I write here – thought is free.

      Just send on wherever it might help …

      If it can be useful and helpful to others, please propagate …

      Thanks again, Brian.

    293. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: my post at 8.14pm, regarding Bob Costello’s efforts for the indy cause…

      Two short videos, featuring Dundee worthies, Sheena Wellington (with Citizen Smart) and Bob Servant – sorry, Brian Cox.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4To2I5C_A

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPjvv1fKjSs
      Brian Cox – “the SNP and not my party… Labour. (Labour) is no longer the keepers of social democracy.

      Check out the list at the right of the YouTube pages for other ‘Spirit of Independence’ episodes. They’re well worth revisiting in our journey to recreate the spirit of Summer 2014 – next year, iye?

    294. heraldnomore says:

      Thanks Ronnie.

    295. Petra says:

      @ ronnie anderson says at 8:32 pm …. ”REV …. Domestos is advertised as killing 99% household germs. I’ll send you some stuff that kills 100% cause this auld house needs cleaned oot of the thread disrupters, you gave short shift to Indy. I like other Wingers are more & more frustrated by our squatter Trolls.”

      I’ll second that one Ronnie and will willingly pay for the for gallons of domestos required.

      ……………………………………….

      Good article from Keregan in the National today stating that the Scottish Convention for Independence (SIC) could / should become the ‘umbrella’ organisation that we are in great need of right now.

      He says ”we need a body that organises popular events, mobilises on the street and provides generic Independence literature and campaign materials. It should be a clearing house and point of contact. And it should train local activists to be able to win arguments in Scotland’s cafes, pubs, clubs and workplaces…….. (Spot on Mr Kerevan).

      SIC is proposing to hold its next major gathering on November 4th. Everyone with an interest in re-animating the independence movement should be there.”

      http://independenceconvention.scot/about-us

    296. heedtracker says:

      There is ABSOLUTELY NO COPYRIGHT on anything I write here – thought is free.

      Its a great comment Wull. If only someone could explain why being Scottish just wont die, and Scotland is a nation, even after 300 years of the UK. Well not 300 years. Being Scottish was a big British deal, say up to WW2 and then the British Empire collapsed away. Its never called the UK Empire either.

      Scotland and England, partners in 250 years of Imperial crime.

    297. Contrary says:

      GERS stuff:

      Maybe other folk here already knew of these GERS analyses from 2005 and 2006, but I hadn’t ever seen them before – they make very plain how much the figures in GERS are warped, and they are clearly written. I never get links to work on here, so they are on Prof Robertson’s Talking Up Scotland Blog, contributed by Panda (apologies if this has already been discussed, I haven’t had time to keep up lurking duties recently):

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/08/28/the-great-obfuscation-thanks-to-b-le-panda/comment-page-1/#comment-4919

    298. Highland Wifie says:

      @Wull

      “Scottish independence would be a huge blow to the collective English psyche. We should not forget this. And we should ready ourselves to be able to deal with it in a humane and understanding way.”

      This will be one of the main challenges we will face after independence. Scots have played the under dog for so long that many of us cannot resist the temptation to really stick it to our larger neighbour whenever we get the chance. When we regain our independence this will be our greatest test. Can we be magnanimous enough to be gracious. Whether we like it or not it will be seen as winners and losers and the winners will (naturally) find it hard to be restrained.

    299. Paula Rose says:

      Those of us who are from England would remind you that this is about democracy – has not and never will be about sticking it to anyone. Elements of the English and Britnat community will see it differently – they are to be pitied.

    300. Breeks says:

      @ Alex Clark

      “Give us a break from your sermonising please or just take it elsewhere because your both boring the tits off of me..”

      Since you have so much spare time on your hands and like counting things, how about you tell me how many times the question of why the SNP doesn’t respect the sovereign voice of the Scottish Electorate in 2016 to remain in Europe has been answered?

      Answer that smart arse.

    301. Liz g says:

      Ronnie and Petra
      I’ll third it.
      Sovereignty (well the Constitution actually) is my pet subject….and even I’m fed up with it on every thread.
      You would think that they would learn what it was and how it works, before trying to discuss it.
      But naw….the same bloody misinformation day after day.

    302. Fireproofjim says:

      Petra -Yes what a wonderful country we have.
      I watched the Tattoo tonight. Slick and colourful as always, if too many Union flags, but it struck me as the cameras panned over Edinburgh, what an astonishingly beautiful and dramatic capital we have.
      World class in every way.

    303. heedtracker says:

      Paula Rose says:
      28 August, 2017 at 9:15 pm
      Those of us who are from England would remind you that this is about democracy

      Can’t argue with that Paula.

      Those of us who are from Scotland would remind you that this is about far more than democracy alone:D

      If you are English, you already have a country.

    304. uno mas says:

      If anyone has come on to the thread late on and possibly hasn´t read the post by Wull @5.50pm then you should immediately scroll up the page, read the post, print it out for future reference and if you are on any type of social media forward the post to all you think relevant.

      Congratulations Wull that post was an absolute belter!

      Or as Briandoonthetoon called it…

      A Topper, a Beezer, A Dandy!!!!! A Peoples Friend even 🙂

    305. Robert Peffers says:

      colin alexander says: 28 August, 2017 at 11:48 am

      ““Sturgeon offers to shelve independence vote in return for soft Brexit”
      Where’s the respect for the sovereignty of the Scottish people in that?

      Dear me!
      If ever I had any doubts of Colin’s sanity they have just been confirmed 100% by Colin himself.

      Only a dyed in the wool pure loony would offer Severin Carrell as evidence of anything except sheer idiocy.

      Back in tae the, “dinna interact wi loonies file for Colin.

      It sure as hell explains why Colin has such strange thought processes.

    306. defo says:

      Rules Bob !

    307. ben madigan says:

      agree Wull’s post was fantastic. it was sorta what I’ve always been thinking but never actually managed to put into words –
      “verbalize” as our American friends would say.

      well done Wull

    308. Artyhetty says:

      Wull@5.50

      Excellent, thanks. Will read more indepth and feed back. Just quickly though, as wee kids, when it could be afforded, we came to Edinburgh for days trips in summer, we lived in NE Eng, real NE, not Yorkshire.

      Loved it, loved Scotland, it seemed to us to have a distinctly different atmosphere, culture and just more of an identity. Probs was a bit tartan, Edin rock stuff though. It was only when I came to live in Scotland, 28 years ago, that I saw how Scotland’s identity had been suppressed. Read about the clearances, that did it for me, such injustice and abuse from the English neighbours. Grrr.

      Why would that be any different to any country which had been colonised, just because it was ‘part of the same landmass’, this is the excuse for not choosing ‘seperation’, said an Irish friend prior to indy ref 2014. Jeez.

      Anyways, interesting posts to say the least. Stuart can take a back seat some days and enjoy the view! 🙂

    309. INDEPENDENTLY says:

      Ref the Herald.
      Tilbury Town to Gravesend 2 miles fastest train journey 1 hr 40 mins.
      Just shows how c**p the journs on that rag are and how desperate they are for any kind of story now.

    310. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Highland Wifie Us being magnanimous is dependant on how Westminster reacts on our Independence , history teaches us that they ( westminster establishment) aren’t gracious in defeat.

      It will take a long time to disentangle the the Act of Union & shared assets . England will be in turmoil for a long time after our Independence & declining income revenues will bring home to the People the corruption & lier’s within the Establishment . Roll on Independence .

      @ Wull
      I nearly bypassed your post , thats how distracting the Trolls are . Good read BTW.

    311. gus1940 says:

      Watching The Tattoo earlier Our Colonialist masters and their lackeys at The BBC didn’t miss a trick.

      Every few minute the screen was filled with a bloody great Butcher’s Apron interspersed with copious shots of our unesteemed Royal Adulterer In Chief.

    312. McDuff says:

      Robert Peffers. 1.55pm

      “ PISH“
      Very articulate.
      Yes we all know it was a GE but the Unionist parties made it an independence election as that was the only topic they wanted to discuss. Did you miss that. Were you out of the country at the time. The SNP were totally unprepared for this and gave some toe curling performances as a result. They had absolutely no game plan and many other indy supporters I know were equally disappointed by their lacklustre performance.
      As I have said before, I have supported the SNP and independence for over 40 years and I have the right to criticise them when I believe it is justified.
      You may slavishly follow the SNP believing everything they do is perfect but that benign attitude will not help them or us achieve independence.
      And in future don`t try to patronise me as you are not smart enough to pull it off.

    313. colin alexander says:

      @Petra

      If you aren’t accusing me or others of being fifth columnists or suchlike, I politely request you please explain your comment. If I have misinterpreted this comment, then I’d be happy to retract my comment:

      “Better still it’s high time that you invested in a calculator and then toddle off and ask your bosses what tack you should take next. The same goes for your Unionist supporting pals on here.”

      What bosses? hmmm

    314. auld highlander says:

      Wull @ 5.50pm

      That’s it in a nutshell,

      ENGLAND OWNS US.

    315. Wull says:

      PS to Brian Doonthetoon at 8.14 and yesindyref2 at 7.51, concerning Bob Costello. A great shame if a man like Bob was castigated here, and stopped posting.

      The independence movement is a very broad church.

      We have no right to hitch it aggressively to any of our other preferred options or opinions, above all not in an exclusive manner. And certainly none of us have any right to turn away, or turn off any pro-independence person, whether long-standing or recently converted. Especially not someone who might disagree with us on this or that other issue, or even on many other issues, just because he or she disagrees with us in that respect.

      I wouldn’t be interested in an independent Scotland if I did not think there would be a place for everyone in it. Nor would I be interested if I didn’t believe it will turn out to be a country with plenty of good, honest and genuinely open debate. I can’t see any other way to reach, and keep on reaching, what will turn out to be the good of all. Nor can I see any other wy for us to make a genuine contribution to the wider world.

      Who wants to live in a place where everyone agrees with everyone else about everything? What an unimaginably dull and unproductive place that would be. And nothing like the Scotland I know, come from, love and believe in. The fact is we don’t all agree with each other, and never have done. Which doesn’t mean we are not people of conviction. Actually, that is precisely what it does mean: that we are people of conviction, and we recognise that convictions honesty held matter.

      We’ve surely no intention of becoming a nation of dumbed-down robots, where everyone agrees with everyone else about everything etc. etc.

      If Bob holds some conservative views, that’s OK. In fact, it’s all to the good: what we are aiming at, surely, is a mutually tolerant and genuinely plural Scotland. The Yes movement needs ‘conservatives for Yes’ and ‘the conservative-minded for Yes’ just as much as it needs any other pro-independence group.

      So does the future Scotland, post-independence. There will be room for all kinds of convictions, honestly held, and capable of being rationally argued.

      I don’t know Bob Costello, but he sounds like an energetic and enterprising man. Someone who can and indeed already has contributed a huge amount to the Yes movement, and who will give much to the independent Scotland that will soon follow in its wake.

      Whatever our own views, and no matter where we might disagree, we can’t afford to alienate great people like this.

      After all, they too know that there are plenty of people in the pro-independence / Yes movement who don’t agree with them on this or that issue, or maybe even a whole raft of issues. But that doesn’t stop them from joining up or joining in. They don’t allow it to turn them off, and they don’t turn away.

      It should be the same for those who disagree with them … We are all joining into something that is bigger than ourselves, and bigger than our own particular convictions. Even when these are dearly held, as indeed they should be.

      People like Bob Costello remain committed to independence, and therefore to Scotland’s authentic future, and in doing so they rub shoulders with all kinds of people who don’t agree with them on other points. So too for everyone else. The pro-Indy Yes movement is not a simplistic ‘us versus them’ thing.

      Even if those ‘we’ think of as ‘them’, whom we shall term ‘they’, are on the other side of ‘us’ in some or many things, ‘they’ are actually very much part of ‘us’ … Because ‘they’ are pro-Scotland and pro-the-independent-future … and so are ‘we’. Likewise, therefore, ‘us’ are also very much part of ‘them’, just as ‘they’ are very much part of ‘us’!

      Independence is a common cause, and a unifying reality; let’s rally to it. Let’s not listen to those who claim it’s divisive, and let’s not give them any reason or excuse to present it in that way. All kinds of people are making common cause for Scotland’s future.

      And after independence is won, let’s remember the simple fact that it will have been won by all kinds of Scots, from all kinds of backgrounds, with all kinds of opinions about all kinds of things.

      And let’s keep that going.

      We want to be finally done with the kind of binary politics, that Westminster always did and still continues to propagate. That stuff is indeed highly divisive, and we’ve had enough of it. No more of that poison, please!

      Scotland is a large space; there’s room for all of us in it. And after independence it will be up to us all to make a real go of it.

      Bob Costello, I salute you! Whatever our respective opinions, and wherever you and I might honestly disagree with each other, I still say more power to yer elbow!

      What was ever wrong with ‘honest disagreement’ anyway? Especially in Scotland.

      What puts us off a certain kind of Unionism – especially as found in the Unionist Press, and exposed on this website – is not so much that we disagree with them, even though that is also the case but, rather, that it’s often so downright dishonest. That’s what sticks in the craw. Honest disagreement is OK, but the dissemination of dishonest propaganda, twisted and aimed to deceive, is not.

      I am convinced that most No voters are not dishonest – some hold their Unionist conviction sincerely, which is fair enough and to be respected. But many more – most, even – are just confused.

      What Wings does so effectively is to dispel the main sources of their confusion (if only more and more No voters would read this website). Wings clears away all the fog and smoke and deceptions deliberately blown all over Scotland by false voices in the media, and by the falsehood of those who lie behind these voices, and inspire them.

      The Unionist Press is simply dishonest; it is not open to rational debate. Like all propaganda machines, it seeks to prevent such genuine debate from ever arising.

      Surely, it will never be thus in an independent Scotland. If the independence movement teaches us anything, it should be the importance of all of us hanging in there together, holding to our various convictions but not allowing any of these same convictions to blind us to the humanity of the other person.

      Isn’t this the real Scotland, which is being re-born before our eyes?

      Don’t we remember the auld Scots sang that was sung at the opening of the Holyrood parliament?

      Falteringly at first, or so I thought at the time, but then … gradually … with a confidence that just kept growing. ‘A man’s a man for a’ that …’

      Yes! Indeed, YES, … tae a’ that!

    316. tamson says:

      The “rock festival” in Glasgow that Corbyn was appearing at was actually this one:

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11386/all-eyes-inaugural-govanhill-festival-nicola-sturgeon-and-jeremy-corbyn-plan-visits

      A worthy enough event, but not that much further up the scale than a local fete, frankly.

    317. Andy smith says:

      Yesindyref2 / Craig p, To be fair, there was a train driver a few years ago who tried to shorten the journey time !;-)

    318. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/first-minister-speech-1

      “Our proposals represent significant compromise on the part of the Scottish Government.

      We accepted that Scotland would leave the EU – despite the 62% vote to remain – but we argued that the UK should either stay in the single market or seek an outcome that would allow Scotland to do so.”

      —————————————–

      “WE ACCEPTED THAT SCOTLAND WOULD LEAVE THE EU”

      Where in the SNP manifesto is the seeking of a mandate for that? Eh, Robert?

      Nicola seems to think Scotland can vote to stay in the EU, but the SNP can then overrule the people’s democratic decision, just like the UK Govt.

      That’s your SNP boss. How did you no know she said that?

      Get yourself down to your SNP branch meeting and have it out with them.

      Tell them about the people being sovereign, no Queen Elizabeth or Queen Nicola.

    319. crazycat says:

      To return this thread – probably only briefly – to its original topic, in the Guardian article Heedtracker mentioned at 8.38, there is a comment btl asserting that the Labour meeting pictured here was a “private” one, by invitation for activists, who then “decided” to give out a few leaflets!

      I can think of more suitable places than Leith Links for a “private” meeting.

    320. Marie Clark says:

      Wulls, that’s two absolute belters of posts from you today. Well done that man.

      It’s nice to actually read some down to earth common sense on here,and getaway from the perpetual guff from the resident trolls.

      I’m with Ronnie Anderson on this, it’s getting boring as hell, and that is what the are trying to achieve. For god’s sake folks, read the Rev’s rules and stop feeding them. PLEASE.

    321. colin alexander says:

      @Crazycat

      Mr Corbyn said: ““If a referendum is held then it is absolutely fine, it should be held.

      “I don’t think it’s the job of Westminster or the Labour party to prevent people holding referenda.”

      He said if there was a vote in the Commons on whether Scotland should have another referendum, Labour “wouldn’t block it”.

      We also know Labour opposes an indyref.

      Whether that opposition means Labour would vote FOR an indyref is another matter; they can abstain and let the Tories / DUP vote No. Same result.

    322. defo says:

      Is it not hammer time yet, already ?

    323. colin alexander says:

      @Heedtracker

      “Scotland and England, partners in 250 years of Imperial crime”.

      Here’s a song for ye then : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89YOvmcRdf0

      Just don’t expect me to be so nice aw the time.

    324. heedtracker says:

      I can think of more suitable places than Leith Links for a “private” meeting.

      Is that The Guardian news or is it Comment from Hassan?

      “Corbyn held a “Festival of Socialism” rally at Glasgow University Union on Saturday which in its style – poetry, live music and speeches – drew inspiration from the independence movement. It was a sell-out event, packed with hundreds of enthusiastic young people who three years ago were avidly pro-independence.”

      Its too late for English socialism, festival or not. Look at how money is extracted from, out and away from us, every waking minute.

      UK energy, all of it, domestic, transport, sold off to the City, big pension funds, hedge funds.

      Do we pay much more than we would if all UK energy production was not now in the hands of City oligopolies?

      Royal Mail gone, sold off to tory creeps/hedge funds. Student Loans, debt so big, its one of the most exciting investment opportunities going, in the City.

      Over a decade of red tory SLabour only entrenched this tory UK system of syphoning dosh out of us all, right into the City. Never mind that the greed crazed City banksters still couldnt get enough money, our money.

      Crash Gordo had his sops to his inner socialist worker. Yes, UKOK energy really cost a fortune but here you go OAP’s, have a few hundred quid to stop old people dying in their homes from the cold, let alone the slave wage earners that shiver in unheated homes each winter. Just jump about bit, for the union.

      Corps like SSE make a billion or two a year profit. They have giant city shiny city centre office blocks, their top guys are all millionaires but its our energy they are looting/profiting off of.

      Where will a socialist worker of 21st C Labour like Corbyn actually fit in to this modern tory UK economy?

      He will fit in just fine because like all of Westminster, he’s full of shit. Just look at how he’s embraced today by tory creepshows like the Sunday Times and the even more ghastly hypocrites of The Guardian.

    325. heedtracker says:

      Just don’t expect me to be so nice aw the time.

      I dont mind your endless SNP bad, Sturgeon even badder stuff Colin.

      Why should you not come on WoS btl and try to get us stop voting SNP, for independence, over and over and over…

    326. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Alex Clark re: talking about sovereignty instead of Corbyn

      OK, well, what about his dismissal of Sarah Champion for going to the Sun about the Paki gangs preying on white girls nationwide. But it couldn’t have been that important anyway, not like Clarks Dolly shoes. Cos Sturgeon tweeted that “some issues are too fundamental to remain silent about.” So, Corbyn was right to sweep it under the carpet, as Nicola didn’t want to talk about it, either. Corbyn’s actually a decent guy if you think about it.

    327. Arthur thomson says:

      So Jeremy, in the future to be referred to as Lord or Sir Jeremy if he lives long enough, visits Scotland to extinguish the SNP and the independence movement. And he is received with adulation by the Scottish cringe movement – who would have thought it? Who would have thought that the left would sacrifice the hopes and aspirations of Scottish kids on the alter of their failed ideology? Well, it’s not as if it’s a new thing, so I for one never doubted that this was coming.

      The only question now is whether the Scottish electorate fall for Corbyn. If they do then the consequences for Scotland will be catastrophic. The numerous achievements of the Scottish government will be rolled back.

      Someone on here said they like Jeremy – I have to say that I don’t. He is liar and a fraud, as evidenced by his twisted and pernicious comments relating to Scotland. In particular I don’t like liars and frauds whose goal in life is to knowingly subordinate and stunt the lives of Scottish children. Where Corbyn is concerned Scottish children are the few who have to be sacrificed for the sake of the many in Mother England.

    328. crazycat says:

      @ Heedtracker

      28 August, 2017 at 10:51 pm
      I can think of more suitable places than Leith Links for a “private” meeting.

      Is that The Guardian news or is it Comment from Hassan?

      The first sentence of that is quoted from a post of mine,
      and it is my comment, referring to a comment btl on Hassan’s article.

      I’d hoped I’d made that clear, but obviously not.

    329. Cadogan Enright says:

      looks like the crowd that Teresa May had during the elections

    330. heedtracker says:

      I’d hoped I’d made that clear, but obviously not.

      No you were clear. Its me that’s not. Is that Hassan thing The Guardian news story or The Guardian comment? is my point.

      Its almost impossible to say these days too, what’s Scottish journalism and ligger chat.

      JC is vice pres of CND. And yet he will buy Trident 2 and dump it in Argyll, for our safety, security, punch things above our weight.

      If you can get past the veep of CND becomes UK Prime Minister and then buying WMD’s like Trident, youre a SLabour voter.

      Labour’s Jeremy Corbyn to become CND vice-president – BBC News

      17 Oct 2015 – Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is to become the vice-president of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, despite his party’s support of Trident.

      Jeremy Corbyn attacked by nuclear disarmament campaign group …
      http://www.independent
      26 Sep 2016 – Jeremy Corbyn speaks at a CND rally against Trident renewal NIKLAS …. Mr Corbyn is a former vice-chairman of CND, making its attack on him …

      He’s not the messiah.

      So JC buys Trident 2. Then in the next UKOK hot war, he’s seated in No.10 with his generals and they need to launch a nuke strike on hostiles?

      What does PM Corbyn, vice pres of CND do?

      Hit the big red button ofcourse. He’s British.

    331. ronnie anderson says:

      General alert good folks. The campaign by Unionists to shut us down on social media has reached overdrive.
      As admins if we see Yoons on pages, the reason should be clear.
      I have personally campaigned to have yoons booted as soon as they show themselves. Need to be really alert now. As posted on Troll Watch..

      DONT FEED THE TROLLS.

    332. heedtracker says:

      Lots of beeb Scotland gimpery, its UKOK all the way and not one mention whatsoever, of Scots.gov, let alone SNP Scots gov that actually commissioned this stunning feat of non Scottish civil engineering. Aint no attack propaganda like BBC Scotland attack propaganda.

      You know its all just killing these reprpbates though:D

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40972881

    333. crazycat says:

      @ Heedtracker

      The Hassan article I meant is this:
      https://archive.is/l5ANp

    334. heedtracker says:

      crazycat says:
      28 August, 2017 at 11:54 pm
      @ Heedtracker

      The Hassan article I meant is this:

      Me too:D

      Is Hassan a Graun reporter now, or one of their columnists, with this kind of reportage?

      The actual story JC crowd wise, is exactly the opposite of Hassan’s stuff. Its quite incredible how few Scots actually went along to see Corbyn. Only the queen can expect a lower turnout in her Scotland er, dom. Money’s money, Hassan’s given the Graun crew what they want.

      “His five-day visit has raked in the coverage and crowds, and annoyed his political opponents.
      It wasn’t always so. Pre-election Corbyn wrote off Scotland as hostile and unfriendly territory. Now, against everyone’s expectations, he is back in play – after six Labour gains in June from the SNP, along with a small rise in their vote.”

    335. Petra says:

      @ Liz g at 9:18pm ….. “Constitution”

      I’m really interested in that subject too Liz (including sovereignty) but when it’s being used constantly (and we’ve got the message loud and clear) for no other reason than to beat up the SNP it’s not on. You know we are such a diverse crowd but I just love that aspect of it all. Love reading about some of the subjects / links / personal stories that are brought to the board on here and have loved reading your take on Constitutional issues. Another of my interests is the history surrounding WW2 and I followed the search for the elusive quote with baited breath. Spent a little time searching for it too, to no avail, however it led to one interesting snippet after another and another and another, lol. Anyway Liz let’s hope that there comes a time next year, pre-referendum, when Nicola Sturgeon, supported by her many experts who are beavering away behind the scenes, outlines data relating to, as one example, the future Constitution of an Independent Scotland. At that point we can all get our teeth right into it.

      …………………………

      Wull thanks for the truly insightful posts. Bringing a well needed breath of fresh air to the site. Your first post reminded me of a young, highly intelligent English guy that I met on the ferry to Mull just before Indyref1. He was travelling there to take a look at a house that was for sale. He had relocated to Scotland but was helping his mother move from London. I eventually got the subject round to Independence, as I’m prone to do, lol. He said that he believed that we should / could be Independent (and very successful), was well aware of what Westminster had been doing but said he’d be voting No as England would be finished without us. I felt like pushing him over the side. Only kidding! He was actually a really nice guy, and great to talk to, but there you go. The psychological ties that bind.

      …………………………

      @ CA at 10:00pm …. “What bosses? Mhhh?

      Mmhh what happened to the post that I was supposed to have made about MI5 and the 77th Brigade? Telling porkies? As to my mention of bosses that could apply to any one of millions of Unionist supporting companies / establishments such as Tunnochs, the BBC, Labour Party, newspapers etc. In fact all members of staff at my local Gregs are no voters. I wonder why MI5 and the 77th brigade automatically came to (your) mind?

    336. crazycat says:

      @ heedtracker

      I first came across Gerry Hassan in 1987/8 (can’t remember exactly) and concluded he was all about promoting Gerry Hassan.

      I haven’t changed my mind; this of course makes him ideal for the G, where such an attitude is almost de rigeur. He’s appeared at RIC and even then, listening to him, I wasn’t convinced he actually suppports independence. (He may do, but only as a means for further self-publicity, and way down the priority list. I, however, may just be being cynical.)

    337. Graf Midgehunter says:

      It’s not so much the C.A. posts that get on my t*t ends – that’s his job and he’s quite effective in a certain way.

      It’s all the f******g suckers here who despite the many “hints” from other wingers, just can’t control the “urge” to feed the troll. They think the’re being clever answering the same posts over and over again.
      It’s been done to death a thousand times over and in a thousand variations, but it’s still all the same.

      That guy’s got you by the b**ls ya suckers…..

    338. Still Positive says:

      Totally agree with Wull’s 2 posts and and Petra’s c 1.15.

    339. Petra says:

      I see that we shouldn’t feed the trulls on here. We wouldn’t have to if they were banned. Why on earth should they be allowed to post comments on here that are clearly undermining the Independence movement? When no rebuttal is forthcoming from genuine Independence supporters their posts are left to stand with newcomers to the site no doubt being influenced by them. I don’t get it.

    340. defo says:

      Petra.
      The answer is the operative word you used. “clearly”

    341. Robert Kerr says:

      @gus1940

      I watched the BBC1 Edinburgh tattoo programme.

      I was initially annoyed with the continuous shots from the castle depicting the “butchers apron” right in my face.

      Then I realised it’s what BBC programming requires and demands.

      BUT….

      The programme itself was subtly anti Unionist. I even said to her indoors that is was “sedition”

      Two formar colonies highlighted. Both nuclear powers with space capabilities… The USA and the Republic of India. And our old allies La Belle France. Vive l’alliance Anciene!

      Then the Jacobite stuff. Why is the uprising of 1745 still Germain in this year of Grace 2017?

      There was a total lack of enthusiasm for GSTQ in contrast to the other singing especially the Burns stuff.

      The Game’s afoot my friends. And we shall triumph!

      Off to bed

      Over to Cactus for the night shift.

      God bless and Love to all.

    342. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyways back to the thread sort of, here’a a handy comparison of SNP and Labour policies.

      https://www.snp.org/snp_and_labour_policies_compared

    343. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s very good actually so I’m going to spam it again. Makes a change from the sovereignty of trolls (that increases the word count):

      https://www.snp.org/snp_and_labour_policies_compared

      https://www.snp.org/snp_and_labour_policies_compared

      https://www.snp.org/snp_and_labour_policies_compared

    344. yesindyref2 says:

      Excellent actually, it even honestly gives due credit to Labour when they have a good policy. The Truth shall set us free. And I’m shortly not even going to be an SNP member, so that’s a real compliment from someone who’s non-aligned.

      https://www.snp.org/snp_and_labour_policies_compared

    345. Meg merrilees says:

      Sky news have a lovely video feature on the new bridge across the River Forth.

      ‘British Engineering at it’s best!’

      The Queensferry Crossing is the longest free-standing balanced cantilever bridge in the world and Britain’s tallest bridge.

      INTERESTING STATEMENT: –

      The new bridge has been completed nine months behind schedule. It had been due to open last December, but adverse weather conditions have contributed to delays. The cost of construction is £1.3bn, far less than the original estimate of £2.3bn.

      Wonder if we’ll hear this repeated?

    346. Cactus says:

      Aweright Robert Kerr ~ cheers fur the intro, just caught-up!

      Yeah, have been thinking that the word ‘sovereign’ and its many associations have also now begun to begin to being overused and monstered. Sound familiar indy folks?

      Could we at least simplify it to ‘sov’ please? Would be easier on the eyes.

      Important as it is… Alex Clark called the actual word count earlier.

      Welcome back Wull, good tae hear ye.

      I may be back.

    347. Breeks says:

      So the SNP, the party elected to liberate Scotland’s sovereign independence, doesn’t like to mention the word Independence any more, and use of the word sovereignty is strictly verboten, and if you ask an awkward question about caving in to Brexit you’re a troll.

      Whispers – Are we now trying to sneak up on Independence by catching it unawares?

      That’s fine. I’ve got the message. Can I have my feckin’ vote back please?

      I’m glad Alex Salmonds Fringe show is a sell out. What a pity Nicola Sturgeon’s is too.

    348. Jock McDonnell says:

      On the bridge being late thing …. the contracted delivery date was I think May 2017

    349. Capella says:

      The Bridge is all lit up last night. BBC has picture. Nicola was there for the hand over to Scot Gov. BBC has no picture.
      Another day for celebrating another milestone. Great thread above and I too enjoyed Wulls’ excellent contribution.

      One thing, although I agree that most people are struggling with unconscious attitudes inculcated from childhood, there is an upper echelon of the UK who know exactly what they are doing. That’s the propaganda we are dealing with on WoS.

    350. Hamish100 says:

      Breeks
      Mindset strange. Voting for the Tories or other Unionists? Brexiteers are making a mess of things. Let them. We will get a vote for independence. Strange that you seem to advocating no change.

    351. Brian Powell says:

      Folks mentioning Gerry Hassan in the Guardian. You know a lot of revenue for the Guardian comes from clicking on the articles?

      There was a time when the Scotsman (and the Herald) did great business when Independence supporters piled in to argue or refute articles against the SNP and Independence.

      The Guardian is the same now, the comments sections are packed with Indy supporters, helping out the Guardian by clicking on the articles. There is Hassan, Cat Boyd, Kevin McKenna, Alex Bell, Weetabix man. They draw in commentators.

      And remember the Guardian has to keep the editor’s estate in Scotland safe from Land Reform policies of Independence supporters.

    352. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      This destroys Corbyns claim that the SNP do nothing about austerity;
      https://www.autonomyscotland.org/14976-2/

      A Trip Up North;
      http://derekbateman.scot/

      North Korea launches missile that flies over Japan;
      http://www.thejournal.ie/north-korean-missile-japan-3569683-Aug2017/

    353. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Groundhog day: Michel Barnier demands clarity from UK (again) as Brexit talks resume;
      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15499924.Groundhog_day__Michel_Barnier_demands_clarity_from_UK__again__as_Brexit_talks_resume/?c=x3r1hm

      Michael Fry: The UK’s decade of stagnation is down to the failure of Treasury policies;
      http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15499923.Michael_Fry__The_UK___s_decade_of_stagnation_is_down_to_the_failure_of_Treasury_policies/

      Labour should commit to retaining single market membership permanently;
      https://www.snp.org/labour_should_commit_to_retaining_single_market_membership_permanently

    354. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Britain Must Accept The Hard Truth About Brexit;
      https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-28/britain-must-accept-the-hard-truth-about-brexit

      Sub- British nationalities are just a pretend thing;
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/

      Brexit Bullshit;
      https://scottovoce.wordpress.com/

    355. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Tory election campaign lacked clear policy message, MPs tell review;
      http://archive.is/EkXYN

      Michel Barnier voices concern over pace of Brexit talks;
      http://archive.is/YxApr

      Jim Murphy wanted YES MOB angry
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2017/08/28/pterodactyl-jim-murphy-wanted-yes-mob-angry-during-indyref-according-to-former-colleague/

    356. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Labour run North Lanarkshire Council capitulating on Tory tax office closures, see Jamie Hepburn MSP’s post below:
      https://www.facebook.com/NeilGraySNP/posts/2018763618358304

      Inconvenient truth about oil revenues leaves unionist commentators in disarray;
      http://www.businessforscotland.com/inconvenient-truth-oil-revenues-leaves-unionist-commentators-disarray/

      COMRADE CORBYN visits Scotlandshire;
      https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/902193649018179584

    357. Abulhaq says:

      British spellchecks as Brutish, coincidence?

    358. Proud Cybernat says:

      Salmond building bridges…

      http://imgur.com/a/Xs8oe

    359. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @Wull
      10.10am

      A really great post.
      Explains the North British mentality perfectly and how it came about and still exists.
      Also the English psyche and how they will try to hold on to us forever as we are the last vestige of their Empire.

      It was never a Real Union.

      There were never any South British.

    360. Bob Costello says:

      I note , very gratefully ,my name being mentioned a few times in this thread in a positive way. So I thought I would pop in and give a bit of perspective. Yes I did post here on this site a wee while ago and received a fair amount of criticism for views that I feel were in the main misinterpreted. However that is part of the rough and tumble of Scottish politics at the moment and I was in no way frightened off by this. Most of my comments were ( in my opinion ) constructive criticism of the main party in the independence movement , the SNP. I feel now that most of my concerns have indeed come to pass which the present state of the movement and indeed the SNP indicate. I felt that the SNP ( not the Scottish government)were failing to get on with their day job which is independence.
      It seems that some of my views were seen as “conservative” and to a point they possible were , but conservative in the true meaning of the work and not in any way to be connected to the Tory form of conservatism.
      I remember once when several of us from the Yes bus team were confronting Jim Murphy in Ardler ( and other parts of Dundee)a short time after the referendum when he was doing his tour of Scotland with his shadow cabinet. We were basically showing up this façade of communicating with Yes voters for what it was ,a sham. At one point ( before he invited me in to the community centre to debate with him ) as I was walking beside him carrying my placard and spoiling his camera shots, he said to me. ” So Bob do you call yourself a socialist”? “no Jim” I said ” I am a capitalist but a capitalist with a social conscience whereas ,you Jim are just a capitalist” That is how I would like to see an independent Scotland and that is neither too far to the left or too far to the right.
      The last referendum campaign was something very special in political history where there was no real left or right but an understanding that once the goal of independence had been achieved then we would get the government we chose. I remember a couple of weeks before the vote when the big red labour bus came to Dundee , to our Square with their bussed in “supporters” the yes Bus team gathered in the Square and behind our piper we marched through the crowd of bussed in Labour support and Anus Sarwar, up reform street to Albert Square where a far left group were holding a rally. We stood and listened to them before both groups got behind Ian ,our piper and together marched back down Reform street right up to the labour position , where we marked time and sung Flower of Scotland before once again walking straight through them and forming up in our City Square. There was not a single SNP politician there , although that very morning they had all been huddling around their wee stall in the Murrygate two hundred yards from the City Square and Stewart Hosie had begged me not to confront the labour charade. That unfortunately is how the SNP have ran the independence campaign, by sitting in their bunker and hopping the enemy would go away. That day started with 5 of us assembling in the City Square and ended with hundreds of ordinary Scots joining us on our march back to the square. You dont win battles by cowering away in your bunker, you seek out your enemy and destroy them on the field of battle. The SNP must grasp the thistle or fade into obscurity.

    361. gordoz says:

      Wings just ain’t what it used to be.

      Honestly Rev come back soon! The comments section is disintegrating into utter pish! Series of verbose garbage one after the other from usual suspects is a complete turn off. I know I’ll get pelters, but someone has to say it.

      Diatribe after diatribe is not helping the cause guys. Its boring and a complete turn off. Dont engage with obvious trolls! Dont massage your egos with needless words.
      This is the worst period of Wings I can remember, so sad.

      Who needs Corbyn when Wings goes to mush in Revs absence.
      Apologies felt the above needed said as Wings was my only reliable source of news where I live.

    362. yesindyref2 says:

      Inconvenient truth about oil revenues leaves unionist commentators in disarray;

      Love the headline, and the article’s great too.

      Doesn’t look like BfS are prepared to take things lying down.

    363. Tinto Chiel says:

      Jeezo, Smallaxe, you’ve gone into overdrive with your links! That’s me until tea-time.

      All you have to remember about Corbyn is that he is a senior member of CND who would renew Trident or that he berates the SNP for not doing enough to alleviate poverty when his party either votes for Tory cuts or abstains. He’s a superannuated Wolfie Smith.

      And Hassan, like McKenna is diehard Labour whose genuine commitment to independence is questionable but the topic’s a nice little earner, innit?

      Midge, just noticed: nice foghorn. Ardnamurchan point?

    364. Highland Wifie says:

      COMRADE CORBYN visits Scotlandshire

      That sums him and the whole Slab panto perfectly.

    365. gordoz says:

      If you haven’t seen the Pic of new Forth road bridge on Revs twitter feed you should!
      Its amazing, check it out!?

    366. Capella says:

      Hahaha – the Saltire Bridge. Brilliant.

      https://twitter.com/JamieHolePunch/status/902423809327849472

    367. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Tinto, enjoy the links, are you wearing your cerise brushed suede jammies?
      🙂

    368. heedtracker says:

      And remember the Guardian has to keep the editor’s estate in Scotland safe from Land Reform policies of Independence supporters.

      WoS is UK politics and media though, or… English media, tory BBC, ITV, SKY dominate the Scottish airwaves, English news dominates Scottish newsstands.

      What else is left to chat about, btl Wos?

      Guardian hardly ever even mentions Scotland much at all these days, less and less since 2014. Now its just occasional SNP bad drive-by’s with no commenting allowed.

      And use adblock.

      Stinky old Graun’s the last of spreadsheets to not go behind a paywall but if youre interested in Scottish news etc, there will be little point in subscribing for Graun’s cheezee UKOK faux lefty rule britannia in England scotland region, bollox.

      Scotland is v v bad in Graun newsroom, for a long time to come.

      So cheer up Mr Powell.

    369. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, the Macart’s article (who he?), this bit: “The timing of this indyref to be delayed until after the Brexit position of the EU/UK has been clarified, but before ratification.

      Is the same as it was since the EU Referendum. And the problem too for the SG / SNP was that no action COULD be taken until after Article 50 was invoked – just in case it wasn’t, it took May long enough to do it (9 months).

      Because if Indy Ref 2 had been called first, who knows that it could have been the excuse for May to delay Article 50 until “after our internal constitutional uncertainty is resolved”?

      There is a sequence in these things unfortunately, and if the sequence isn’t followed we’re all fsked.

    370. Famous15 says:

      CLICK BAIT means advertising revenue for Guardian Herald Scotsman Express Mail etc. You may see articles that anger you and you rush off to respond to defend Independence KERCHING

      You are aiding and abetting the Unionist media.

      Reflect on a comments section with only foaming at the mouth anti Scottish Unionists or cringing self loathing Scots. They over egg the nonsense and lies and as wise man once said “See youse. Youse have taken that too far”

      Leave them alone to comment and their absurdity is exposed.

      BTW that saltire light show on the bridge is pure dead brilliant. So it is and Gordon’s brass neck must be glowing or is it him glowering!

    371. Capella says:

      BBC have updated their Bridge article and now include Nicola. Nice little sequence of switching on the lights.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41076596

    372. yesindyref2 says:

      Incidentally, minded of this by Macart’s article, I’m as impartient and restless as most people are, but have to remember my own comments after the recent General Election. That Sturgeon looked tired, and I thought she was kind of ragged, burnt out by 2 referendums and 4 elections and needed a rest.

      Well, she looks like she has been having a rest, or at least a change. Still doing the FM stuff, going to openings, meetings, that sort of thing, but staying away as much as possible from constitutional politics.

      Well, she needed it, and hopefully will come back soon refreshed and raring to go again. If not, then perhaps there’s the time to get worried about it, but not before.

    373. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Smallaxe 9.01. But how could you possibly…..

      Oops! Webcam on.

      *takes beamer*

      Macart’s WGD article is excellent. As usual, a voice of sanity and hope.

    374. Ken500 says:

      The fabulous Bridge. Thanks to the SNP Scottish Gov and the workers. Who know how to get things done. What a feat. Thanks to everyone.

      Just as well some people will go to meetings 10 hours a year and donate or deliver a few leaflets for Independence. Instead of sowing dissent. How would Scotland be without them. Dread to think. The SNP will support and hold another Ref when the time is right. When it can be won. Until then they are doing a great job. Pity about the people who sow dissent and vote unionist but want all the benefits. Dundee is doing very well with a SNP council.

      Aberdeen Council £1.2Billion in debt. Wasting £200million on a grotesque monstrosity no one wanted. Now cutting £125Million. Cutting jobs and services. Unionists changing council meeting to accommodate Tory two jobs Mason to keep their corrupt coalition in power. Some folk never learn.

      The Bridge is for the whole of Scotland. So are the Trams. So why can’t all pensioners use their off peak (bus) travel passes on the undersubscribed Trams.

      Do not respond to the trolls. Rev Stu will sort them out. Busy on other matters of late.

    375. yesindyref2 says:

      Great stuff. The Press Association have created a bit of a rumble it seems, and the Herald should be hanging its head in red-blushing shame at haveing uncritically run the story. From the Courier today:

      “Claim that trains between Edinburgh and Perth are amongst the slow coaches of Britain is ‘flawed’, say transport chiefs” and the article points out that it is 57 miles not 43 as it says (actually it was quoted in the Herald as 32).

      That should hopefully wake up a few more people as to the crap they’re getting spoonfed by bullshitting media.

      Every little helps.

    376. Ken500 says:

      BBC Report had Nicola and workers featured.

      BBC Scotland is the Labour Party Press Office. Labour personal and Labour connected. Boothman insulting Margo’s daughter.

    377. I ran out of time yesterday before I had reached
      the conclusion in my post @28 August, 2017 at 12:39 pm

      I was about to say that disagree with Tommy Sheppard’s other suggestion that working with the left in England will help us towards independence.

      While there may well be some on the left in England who
      are sympathetic to us, but, there are probably very many more who just like Corbyn are unlikely to do anything, even if as part of a progressive alliance at Westminster with the SNP, to aid and abet Scotland in gaining its independence.

      They Like some of their Scottish Counter parts wouldn’t see it as being in their interests and would view independence as making it more likely they would never
      see another labour government at Westminster.

      Also many of them will be die hard unionists, believing
      in mainainting the integrity of the union at all costs.

      So Tommy Sheppard’s suggestion is, as I see it a non
      starter.

    378. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      29 August, 2017 at 9:18 am
      BBC have updated their Bridge article and now include Nicola. Nice little sequence of switching on the lights.

      That is a lousy video Capella. Sturgeon must have given a great speech, so they cut it out. There cant have been any union jacks in the light show, just the Saltire, so beeb gimps zoomed in on a single tower.

      Usual beeb stuff in Scotland, weird camera angle, disorientating close ups and crops, sudden cut aways for no reason…Anyone can be a BBC Scotland gimp:D

    379. orri says:

      The hoops the SNP are going through to seek compromise on Brexit are to exhaust every potential attempt to derail independence through a last minute promise of nigh “Devo Max”

      Corbyn’s promise of “federalism” being on the table should be taken in the light of Charlottesville. It’ll not be some loosening of the bonds recognising Scotland’s right as willing partner. It’ll be an elimination it.

      I’m in no way saying we’re the same as the South in general and especially not the right wing extremists. There are however definite tendencies to romanticising our defeats at the expense of our victories. Mary Queen of Scots, Bony Prince Charlie and the ’45, Wallace.

      On the other hand, on the table might be in an operating theatre. Plenty of scope to cut things out or even “accidentally” kill of something. Plenty of dramas have the potential assassination of a despot via that means as a possibility.

    380. heedtracker says:

      The new pretty spectacular bridge light show is interesting, in that this is how it will be lit up at night, with the Saltire.

      However when Kez or Colonel Ruth do eventually take up their rightful UKOK places as FM of greater English region of Scotland, it’ll be gone.

    381. Robert Kerr says:

      O/T

      The Euro has just broken through the 93.00 pence level.

      Parity here we come.

    382. Liz g says:

      Breeks 6.59
      That’s a completely unfair statement.
      Nicola Sturgeon if not as far as I can see selling out.
      Nor has she misunderstood what Sovereignty is.

      But if by wanting to “take my vote back ” and having a very skewed view of how Sovereignty works… mibbi you should turn that insight of yours on to yourself.

      I am no going to get into a back and forth with you, I canny explain why you don’t get the concept of Sovereignty any clearer ……try looking back over the many,many,many,posts about it and see if it helps.

      For the record I don’t think that your a troll.
      But I do think that you are so certain in your take on things,that the right way forward is crystal clear to you.
      So you are no really reading the replies.
      I could be wrong,of course I could,but only you’ll know!

    383. heedtracker says:

      Can anyone spot the dif, between beeb Scotland gimps production and

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGd1ZzvePzQ

    384. galamcennalath says:

      Smallaxe says:

      Pete Wishart: Federalism;
      https://petewishart.wordpress.com/2017/08/28/federalism/

      I completely agree with what Pete says. A federal UK where the senate/upper house/HoL replacement had equal representation for each of the UK’s four nations might work. However, Labour want to carve up England which would mean ….

      “ … new ‘regional assemblies’ should have parity of status with the nations of the UK, then we do have a real problem. That would mean that Scotland as a nation would be given the same status as a ‘region’ of England … “

      Pete also opines that Labour don’t really mean federalism, they only mean devolution for England.

      The byproduct either way is to reduce Scotland’s status, which might be more intention than byproduct.

      Is everything really about Scotland and keeping their Union of UKOK? Might be.

      Take the Brexit negotiations. Could it be that the strategy is to delay everything and lapse into a transitional period of business-as-usual? And that delay is actually all about the UK holding out for the next Holyrood election where they will (by every and any means) achieve a Unionist majority?

      Once their Union has been secured by removing the secessionist mandate, they will be free to Brexit in the manner they wanted all along. Certainly one possible way of analysing what we observe.

    385. Terry says:

      @Wull

      Thank you for the two excellent posts on this thread. You have nailed it. I highly recommend that everyone scrolls back and reads them. They are long ones – however every single word resonates.

      Ignore the trolls, peeps. And Wull – more please!!!

    386. Daisy Walker says:

      In response to Wull’s comments.

      Very well put and so right. It really is now or never.

      I spoke to an Englishman in the run up to Indy ref 1 – really decent spud, worked in management for the NHS down south and his son is a Doctor up here – so well aware of Westminsters doings, and the differences here…. but, he did say with a sly smile, ‘I’ve never thought of myself as English, I’ve always called myself British’.

      And there in lies the rub. And thanks to some of the Wee Ginger Dugs articles, I can now articulate what I was feeling.

      British Nationalism = English Nationalism

      The use of the word British was to dilute its sins and appropriate the successes of its outer parts.

      English Nationalism fluffed up in a red white and blue cloth and stamped with the word British, to make it look inclusive.

      I’m not out to ‘get my own back’ at the English, and I’m not rude… but this time round, I’m calling them out on the above fact. They hate it, but tough. It is the truth and this time out there are some hard facts, in amongst the positive and always the decent, that need facing.

      Best wishes to all. Keep on keeping on. Dinnae get doon, get thawn.

    387. Grouse Beater says:

      Liz: “Breeks 6.59. That’s a completely unfair statement. Nicola Sturgeon if not as far as I can see selling out. Nor has she misunderstood what Sovereignty is.”

      He’s not still bleating the same moronic opinion after all these months? Sheesh!

    388. heedtracker says:

      Also explains his egg set up too. Must have been very frustrating for Jimbo.

      http://thenational.scot/politics/15498539.Jim_Murphy____wanted_Yes_mob_angry____during_indyref/?ref=rss

      JIM MURPHY was trying to wind up Yes supporters and make them behave like a “rowdy mob” during the referendum, according to a senior Labour MSP.

    389. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The SNP is indeed exhausting all the opportunities that the unionists might seek to use by being entirely reasonable on the Brexit shambles. Nothing has actually changed (though the unionists got a goal against the run of play with that “surprise” general election).

      O/T
      I note that Nicola when chairing the Edinburgh Book Festival last week had Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie who wrote “Half of a Yellow Sun” as her guest. That was a tale of the events surrounding the declaration of the Republic of Biafra in 1966 and the civil war in Nigeria that followed it. That campaign is in full flow again and Biafra, like Scotland, has joined the queue of countries around the world looking for their deserved independence

    390. yesindyref2 says:

      No, Breeks isn’t a troll in the slightest, and there are quite a lot who feel the same way, I do myself at times. But afore I go to my pit for a couple of hours after working some weird hours as usual with joyous abandon and sore feet, I’m going to recap more recent events to remind myself as much as anyone else.

      So Sturgeon had to wait unti Article 50 was actually invoked in March, and having had no success (not surprisingly) with the apparent compromise over a special deal for Scotland as part of the UK, duly launched the Indy Ref in Holyrood which was of course passed by the SNP and Greens.

      Then the not no no from Downing Street “Now is not the time”. Fine, a little more back and forth, and Sturgeon says she will outline the “next steps” in Holyrood the next week.

      But before then May announces another General Election, so Sturgeon says she will wait till after the GE to outline the next steps. But hey, what happens? Corbyn, and the Tories having to sell out to the DUP to stay in power.

      Well what a turn up for the books, and how unstable can a government be? At the mercy of the DUP. So of course everyone needs to wait – agog – to see what happens about that. So Sturgeon delays outlining the next steps, because really nobody knows when the next General Election could be. It could be in October for all we know, and what price then an Indy Ref and an S30 process halfway through the HoC when there is no HoC because they’re all campaigning like it’s going out of fashion?

      Night all, and be nice!

    391. heedtracker says:

      Great British propaganda, on tour in Scotland, from the horses mouth and then the horse’s arse.

      Jeremy Corbyn?Verified account
      @jeremycorbyn

      Speaking with young people whose opportunities are at risk by @Conservatives & @theSNP in Holyrood unwilling to end austerity.

      Corbynmania just does not scan at all. There’s more standing stones at Callanish than there are Scots at Corbynmania events.

      http://archive.is/qoL7s

    392. heedtracker says:

      This guy’s FT and was a regular daily Ligger Neil says vote tory politics show guest. Something’s really rattled his tory cage.

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/theresa-may-s-daily-humiliation-gives-her-room-to-compromise-1.3201432

    393. colin alexander says:

      @Graf Midgehunter

      So, are you saying I’m supposed to sing the SNP’s praises for campaigning at the GE to: Keep..Scotland at Westminster.

      For decades we faced the same crap, about criticising Labour: being criticial isn’t playing the team game, doesn’t help to be negative. Just a moaner. All that pish.

      People were telling the truth, but the mob mentality, the loyalty mentality closed down their critical thinking. “None so blind at those that refuse to see”.

      For example, Robert Peffers mocked me for using a Guardian article as evidence of the Scot Govt’s capitulation over the EU and acting beyond their mandate, which is a breach of their duty to defend Scottish Sovereignty and Scottish democracy and s breach of what they gained an electoral mandate for.

      I proved it using the FM’s own speech. From a Scot Govt website.

      I’m pro-indy. If you want to find people undermining Scottish sovereignty and the pro-indy cause, look at the SNP and in particular, Nicola Sturgeon in her handling of the EU referendum / Brexit / Indyref / Scot Govt vote 2016 and UK election 2017.

      She’s made an arse of them and it has set back the march towards independence.

      We all make mistakes, so I’m not out for people to condemn her or the SNP, but till date they aren’t listening, just like SLab before them, when grassroots people warn the leaders they are losing touch and getting it wrong. The voting figures don’t lie: they speak for themselves.

      If we are making progress to indy and the SNP are the way to indy: why is support for the SNP going down and down?

      Blame the Tories, I know, sick of hearing it. All a Unionist conspiracy.

      But it’s always been a Unionist conspiracy. Always.

      Yet, support for the SNP and Indy WENT UP.

      Now, it’s going down. The SNP are more worried about getting the UK Govt a good Brexit deal, than Scottish independence.

      Nicola wants to play the international stateswoman and make Scotland part of the international stage ( which is fair enough, she has the talent ability to do so and Scotland should be part of the international community in her own right) but someone has to remind her she is only FM of a Mickey Mouse pretend govt.

      Until, we gain sovereignty, we remain “a region” of the UK.

      Devolution is WM power. Holyrood is a goodwill gesture, a token, a sop, beads for the natives.

      The Supreme Court’s Sewel ruling and the EU referendum proved that.

      The SNP and FM had no right to compromise on Scotland’ democratic decision to Remain in the EU. It should have been a red line.

      By doing so, she has damaged the fight to exercise Scottish sovereignty and the fight for Scottish independence. She has only proved to the UK Govt that the SNP are weak and – as they are the leaders of the indy campaign – has shown the UK Govt how weak the indy campaign leadership are.

      2014 was the high point, till date, it’s gone downhill since then under Nicola’s leadership.

      I hope she turns it around, learns from the mistakes.

      But till now, every political campaign the SNP has run has relied on loyalty. There has been nothing to inspire. The voting figures show that loyalty is fading as people realise they are voting for nothing: SLab with tartan.

      But even Kezia Dugdale and SLab had more sense than to vote with the Tories to let the toffs chop the tails off puppy dogs, after the vets and animal welfare agencies pleaded to leave their tails alone.

      That’s just an example of an SNP who have lost touch. Lost the plot.

      Worst of all: they are losing us the campaign for sovereignty and our independence.

      Edit: There is no campaign. It was promised in the 2016 manifesto from Summer 2016 onwards.

      Now the SNP talks about “new work” to promote independence.

      They were never supposed to have stopped: they are the SNP. They were supposed to have started again in Summer 2016.

      Now it’s more promises and no action.

      I guess Nicola is like me: she’s no listening when the UK Govt tell her to go away, we’re no interested in what you have to say. She takes a while to realise she’s wasting her time.

      A bit like me on here.

      There are no elections, no referendum. Nothing. So, there’s (maybe) time for the SNP to turn it around.

      Just a shame ( for Scotland) nobody in the SNP is listening.

    394. GrahamB says:

      Heedtracker at 9:52
      That for me will go down as the official opening of Our Scottish Bridge, not whenever it is Mrs Windsor and her entourage ponce along to claim it for ‘Great Britain’.

    395. starlaw says:

      Repeat and repeat again Now is the time to Wait. SNP are going through the motions closing arguments down before they are raised in an Indy2 campaign, SNP also needs to be clear on what the position will be re- Brexit.
      Negotiations will have to be about over before a referendum can be called. SNP must have precise grounds to call one.
      Personally I would just like to go for it regardless but bad timing has always been Scotland’s downfall, I’m fed up waiting but its the right thing.

    396. galamcennalath says:

      Daisy Walker says:

      Firstly, I too agree with what Wull has been saying. An excellent analysis from him.

      British Nationalism = English Nationalism

      In England, and from an English standpoint, I agree … the words British and English are completely interchangeable in their minds, as Corbyn shows.

      But what about British Nationalist Scots? I do find it difficult to categorise them. For many, particularly among the Scots middle classes, they are just wannabe English. So the same British = English applies.

      However, there are others, particularly central Scottish working classes who don’t quite fit that pigeon hole. Wull suggests that the duality of Scottish and British, which made some sense half a century ago, lingers on in some. Perhaps this is what is going on. Within their little bubbles they haven’t taken on board the evaporating ‘Britain’ while an emerging Scottish confidence replaces it.

      It is an ‘age thing’ because most young Scots are unaware of what ‘British’ meant in the past. Only those immersed in certain über British/Unionist activities will have been exposed!

      My daughter pointed out something interesting and relevant the other day.

      I go to a number of Scottish traditional music festivals. Great events with people of all ages. In fact, very large numbers of teenagers and 20somethings attend these events. Over the weekend I watched some stuff live streamed from the Shrewsbury Folk Festival (the excellent Skipinnish). What struck me was how old the audience seemed to be. In England the average age of those attending traditional music festivals is about twice that at a Scottish one!

      I was discussing this with my daughter. She pointed out that here, far more young people are engaging with their Scottish identity and culture. Nothing equivalent has happened in England.

    397. heedtracker says:

      GrahamB says:
      29 August, 2017 at 10:25 am
      Heedtracker at 9:52

      Its a lovely video. Imagine how hard its going to burn yoon airse, every time they drive over the biggest, newest, most stunning bridge in Scotland:D

    398. crazycat says:

      @ galamcennelath at 10.45

      I go to a number of Scottish traditional music festivals. Great events with people of all ages. In fact, very large numbers of teenagers and 20somethings attend these events. Over the weekend I watched some stuff live streamed from the Shrewsbury Folk Festival (the excellent Skipinnish). What struck me was how old the audience seemed to be. In England the average age of those attending traditional music festivals is about twice that at a Scottish one!

      I was discussing this with my daughter. She pointed out that here, far more young people are engaging with their Scottish identity and culture. Nothing equivalent has happened in England.

      Decades ago, I used to go to such festivals in England (never went to Shrewsbury, though), and there were quite a lot of young people. They’ll have now become the ones you saw, with no replacement from the next generation(s).

      My attendance coincided with the so-called “Folk Revival” – quite telling, I think that it needed to be revived, in a way that Scottish and Irish music did not – though of course those both benefitted from extra popularity outside their source area.

      Apart from various forms of traditional dance, and Northumbrian piping, though, most English folk music seemed to be very stolid. Industrial protest songs were the closest they got to anything with fire in its belly, probably because the best music comes from struggle (I realize that’s a contentious statement – it’s not purely my opinion, but there are other views available!). Being a colonial power may not be conducive to great music – that’s very contentious, and I stand by for pelters.

    399. colin alexander says:

      @galamcennalath

      My English girlfriend, when she sees the Union Flag here in Scotland, says: “Oh look: the England flag”.

      I used to try and tell her she’s mistaken.

      I now realise she was right all along; I was wrong.

    400. heedtracker says:

      colin alexander says:
      29 August, 2017 at 12:06 pm
      @galamcennalath

      My English girlfriend, when she sees the Union Flag here in Scotland, says: “Oh look: the England flag”.

      Its an odd thing to watch Colin, your 100% determination to get us to stop voting SNP. And that really will be that. Old school online yoons always just start, I voted yes in 2014, but now? never.

    401. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.BREXIT.YESTERDAY.
      Hear all about it here. No sign of Scotland’s Tory Secretary of State Mundell or his fellow Tory Brexiteer Ruth Davidson. 🙁

      European Commission—Audiovisual Services.

      “Press statements by David Davis, British Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, and Michel Barnier, Chief Negotiator and Head of the Taskforce of the EC for the Preparation and Conduct of the Negotiations with the United Kingdom under Article 50 of the TEU”,

      http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/player.cfm?sitelang=en&ref=I142680

    402. colin alexander says:

      @heedtracker

      I am concerned the SNP are slipping in policies, leadership etc

      Their vote is going down and I’m worried independence is slipping away.

      That’s why I’m speaking out.

      —————————

      I did vote Yes. I campaigned YES too, mainly by writing in the Evening Times and sometimes the Herald. I would vote YES again, if I got the chance, but the SNP are offering to cancel indyref for Single Market concessions.

      I’ve proved that.

      Even though they were elected on the indyref mandate.

      What next: The SNP flogging off Scottish sovereignty in Poundland?

      ————————–

    403. heedtracker says:

      I did vote Yes. I campaigned YES too,

      You’re a funny chap Colin A, have to give you that much.

    404. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker @ 1.01
      Funny..Ha Ha. Or Funny Peculiar???

    405. Grouse Beater says:

      Colin Alexander: “So, are you saying I’m supposed to sing the SNP’s praises for campaigning at the GE to: Keep..Scotland at Westminster.

      Do you realise how ludicrous is that statement?

    406. Foonurt says:

      Awe thoan scrap-caurs, wae rid-tiet, prucht poalicies, fur yoan Caurbin.

    407. Alex Clark says:

      @Liz g

      Just for the record my earlier posts on this thread did not refer to Breeks as a troll. I don’t believe that in the slightest.

      Sovereignty is of course a subject worthy of discussion but in my view there will be a time and a place for that on an appropriate article and not all and every article. For me it is very off putting when reading the posts of others to find repeatedly than some poster or other is ignoring other opinions in favour of their own pet one and pushing it continually.

      By continually I mean on a large percentage of articles in recent months, it is the most mentioned topic ever on Wings but by the fewest people.

      An article about football and the OBFA act or an article about Corbyn should not be dominated by more mentions of sovereignty by a very small number of posters at the expense of the subject of the article. That’s what wound me up.

      I’m as interested in what other posters have to say as I am in the articles, I can only take so much though on any one topic and that need not be sovereignty. It could be absolutely any subject that I could have found dominating discussion.

      I’m not for that and willing to say so, everyone else can make up their own mind on the subject. I’m expressing my view.

    408. Grouse Beater says:

      Colin Alexander: “Their vote is going down and I’m worried independence is slipping away. That’s why I’m speaking out.”

      Your first statement carries no proof.

      Your second statement makes no sense as you’ve entered an all-independence site to convince SNP voters to vote SNP.

    409. colin alexander says:

      @Grouse Beater

      “General election 2017: SNP lose a third of seats amid Tory surge”

      For once the BBC wasn’t lying.

      That’s no the whole picture: Labour came within a whisker of taking a load of SNP seats.

      THAT’S WHY CORBYN IS UP IN SCOTLAND.

    410. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Funny you should say that, though I don’t get the time (or money) to go to music festivals I am around at times when they’re on, and it really is a mix of ages, who seem to mix socially there as well. I’d guess that age is less important in Scotland, if it’s a laugh that’s OK. I get the same if I join my son and his pals on occasions when they’re out, no feeling I’m out of place or that they wish I’d go away! I do tend to get a wee bit fu all the same 🙂

    411. Michael McCabe says:

      @ colin alexander. Colin can the SNP build a bridge to try and get back your Support ?

    412. colin alexander says:

      @Michael McCabe

      Nice one haha.
      I’m all for building bridges.

      We need to build on the strong foundations. The fight for sovereignty and independence, not settle for devolution powers, no matter how many are offered.

    413. Grouse Beater says:

      Colin Alexander: “General election 2017: SNP lose a third of seats amid Tory surge”

      No, you’ve avoided both questions by simply reprinting a right-wing headline ….. but then, that’s exactly what I expected you to do. You’re wasting my time, and probably most readers here bemused by your carping.



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