Sometimes you miss the obvious
Readers have had a small handful of replies in response to our “Infrequently Asked Questions” post of last week. (Have you written to your MP/MSP yet? WHY NOT?)
They’ve mostly been pretty rubbish, as you’d probably expect. But while pondering them, a thought suddenly came to us out of the blue, in that irritating “Why on Earth didn’t I spot this before?” way that’s the curse of all writers.
It’s about the idea that the rUK would have to impose border controls – logically, including a 100-mile-long physical barrier from Gretna to Berwick patrolled 24/7 by armed guards – if an independent Scotland adopted a significantly different immigration policy to that of the remnant UK.
The notion has always been cobblers, for all sorts of reasons including the ludicrous cost such an undertaking would entail and how upset poor Rory Stewart would be, but if you think about it there’s an even more obvious one.
Because there are essentially two kinds of immigrants – legal ones and illegal ones. Anyone who’s a legal immigrant will by definition then become a citizen of Scotland, and as such entitled to live and work anywhere in the EU. There would be absolutely nothing the rUK could do to prevent such a person moving to the rUK, and therefore no point in putting up border controls to try to stop them.
And then there are illegal immigrants. Nobody has proposed letting illegal immigrants come to Scotland, and therefore Scotland will be as keen to keep them out as anyone. Scotland will remain surrounded on three sides by the sea, so the number of illegal immigrants gaining access in the first place will presumably remain extremely small.
A second Hadrian’s Wall erected across the border by the rUK, then, would and could achieve absolutely nothing. Even if Scotland had taken in 10 million immigrants, they’d be legal EU citizens and perfectly entitled to move to the rUK if they wanted, so no amount of barbed wire and gun towers could stop them.
And since illegal ones by definition don’t obey the law, an independent Scotland’s immigration policy would be completely irrelevant. (Also, if you’re an illegal immigrant, the last thing in the world you want to do is draw attention to yourself by moving. Every dealing you have with a government authority is another chance to be uncovered.)
We must admit, we didn’t think the “border guards at Berwick” story could get any stupider or more irrational than it already was, but it just goes to show.
[…] « Sometimes you miss the obvious […]
Good point but it could also be a good reason for rFUK (rest of the Former United Kingdom) to play the EU veto card or really force through their own exit to ensure that potential large numbers of EU citizens use iScotland as an entry point. Unlikely, I know, as there will be many other alternatives through the English ports.
Westminster economic policy has depopulated Scotland for years. Scotland is half empty. Most of the land is owned by absentee tax evaders. It’s only devolution that has increased Scotland’s population. More jobs.
Foreign (US) multinationals tax evading is the problem. Without tax evasion, there would be no national debt. In most European countries the population, without immigration is falling. Foreign students are included in the immigration figures.
Most EU workers come through London. That’s where there are jobs. 4% unemployment because of Westminster policies. ‘Unemployment in the North is a price worth paying for jobs and prosperity the south’ UK government economic policy. The UK is one of the most difficult countries to settle for other immigrants.
It’s not poor immigrants that are the problem. It’s the mess caused by Westminster politicans (banking deregulation) and Tory bankers who fund the Tory party.. ‘It wisnae me’.
If anything, theoretically with an expanded SDF naval presence, Scotland will be harder to get into for any illegal immigrant. The whole flooded with immigrants of the illegal variety and base for mad terrorists schtick was utter bollocks from the get go. But hey, since when has common sense or calm reasoning ever been associated with Westminster or the media? Giving rise to irrational fear and panic was their intent then and now. Its a talent they have. 🙂
Ie If every immigrant left Britain and every emige came back. The UK economic problems would still be the same because of the Westminster policies. Poverty, inequality of wealth, NHS/Education underfunding, tax evasion, Trident/illegal wars. Now they are trying to start a trade/war in Europe having caused economic problems in the Middle East/Asia for years.
Ummm… are you quite sure that you want to say that ‘all legal immigrants’ by definition become EU citizens?
Aren’t you forgetting about all those on temporary permission to stay: student visas, tourist visas, and those in the process of applying for permission to remain/settlement/citizenship?
It would be nice if citizenship was as easy as that. (If it was, perhaps my non-EU partner would be able to live with me in the UK. As it is, under the new 2012 family migration rules, she can’t – even though we are married. We currently live in Ireland.)
The guy on the left is clearly a Jags supporter. Firhill for thrills.
I thought the idea was the rUK would exit EU and thus no need to allow EU migration ? A lot of current legislation is against EU immigrants.
Employment Law, Human Rights Act and Immigration are the three foundations of the drivers of exit from the EU.
If they can effectively remove or neuter those then it strengthens power of corporations and government over the working population and the immigration part is the bait for the general population to buy the exit. Most folk supporting it see it as a chance to pull the ladder up behind them. Not realising the protections they will lose in doing so.
A border !
Westminster pay’s
Meh not fussed ,if it keep’s them happy fine.
A reason to vote no,not in my house.
The fact that it wouldn’t work ha ha ha…
Somehow, I cannot envisage hordes of illegal immigrants chancing the North Sea in flimsy boats to land in Scotland. a la Mediterranean. Therefore the only entry point would be by air or the extremely lax borders that England has with Europe.
You are assuming rUK will be in the EU.
5 people in the UK own more than a 1/5 (20%) of the population. Last year the wealthiest increased their wealth by 15%. People are being sanctioned and walking to food banks.
The dafties are going on about border guards.
Hold on, surely someone could come to iScotland legally but temporarily (eg a student visa, or short term work, seeking asylum), then sneak across the border to become an illegal immigrant to rUK?
Still not cost effective to build a land border for. And who would want to sneak across when they’d be more welcome in iScotland? We’d be begging them to stay!
You assume that rUK remains in the EU. Its a long swim from Calais to Drummore. Or will it be the removal of APD that will swing it? Is Stranraer the main entry point for arriving illegals to England today?
Immigrants come seeking employment opportunity. If we have a growing economy then people will want to come here. If we have the end of the world as we know it predicted by blether together then we will have emigration. I know several people who have left my country seeking opportunity. Indeed the population here has been static pretty much for 50 years – while that of rUK has grown considerably. That would suggest that our economy could be better run – by us I would propose.
So if they propose to put up a strict border regime post Independence then the questions should be:- Are they also rebuilding Martello Towers on the south coast of England? Are they building a Berlin wall around Ulster? Are they really just trying to keep Englishmen in? Or is it just scaremongering?
Answers on a sheet of Andrex.
I hate to put the fly in the ointment.
I thought that the above only covered EU nationals(hold a maroon passport?)
Would persons on a work permit be allowed cross border travel i.e. an Austrailian here on a 2 year work visa?
Morning Rev. Another important issue dealt with.
However, lets get down to today’s 2 burning questions.
Have the English athletics team had pancakes again for breakfast looking for a repeat performance of ‘Shove Tuesday’ on the track and will collective blindness hit the BBC commentary box once more ?
Yes good point Rev . We all know when we want to go anywhere from Scotland we have limited Air routes and by sea is nearly always a long journey eg Rosyth to Europe . All other routes are via Englandshire . I would have thought for an ” Illegal” it would prove very tricky to get to Scotland first and totally pointless if you really wanted to get to rUK . Doh !
The creep being nominated by Osbourne to head the BBC
Vote YES
I’m in Jersey at the moment and their way of regulating the population is with work permits and restrictions on house renting and purchasing. This keeps the population down to around 100,000 in a small island. You also can’t claim any benefits unless you paid tax the year before.
I think the ruk will leave the EU. If they want to go in the huff and position border guards to impose controls, so be it. I honestly don’t care. If they impose restrictions here then they will have to impose it between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as well. They will, eventually, see its hurting ruk more than anyone else.
@Simon Chadwick
Much is made of the free movement area between the UK and Ireland. Both joined the then EEC at the same time in 1973. If rUK were to leave and iScotland stay in the EU, this would create a situation which might mean more control. It would depend on the relationship the rUK agreed with the EU.
Norway has free movement with the EU and is a Schengen country. However Norway also pays into the EU, rUK would presumably not continue to contribute! So the Norway model for a future rUK outside EU may not be a good one.
As several posters have already picked up on, it all depends on whether iScotland and rUK both remain in the EU. If one state does decide to leave the EU (no prizes for guessing which one), then it gets complicated.
Having said that, if rUK does leave the EU, then surely they would have to put up an electric fence on the Eire/NI border as well? It would be just as easy for “EU illegals” to enter rUK from Eire as it would from the iScotland.
You’re missing the point, it’s not to keep Scots out, it’s to keep the English in.
They’d be running up here as fast as they’re able after about 10 years, and Westminster’s systems don’t work without a large group of desperate and poor people to exploit.
Well I certainly knew it would be the usual empty threat. Anyone who has studied the actual border knows there are several areas where the present border location is somewhat unclear. For example rivers and burns naturaly meander. The river flow deposits silt at the lead into bends and the same waters action washes away the apex of bends. Rivers, if not controlled my man, will meander. There is no way that border patrols or wall are going to work across the Scottish/English borders.
Imagine, if you will, how they could regulate the shifting Solway Firth sands? If for no other reason large areas of them are contaminated with depleted Uranium from MOD weapons firing.
Wonder how many of the 40+million Scots émigrés will apply for Scottish citizenship? The Irish offer anyone with Irish parents and grandparents Irish citizenship and a lot of people take it, especially Irish Americans, if a US passport’s not very popular say.
Maybe its a blessing in disguise that they did’nt fullfill they’re promice of Scotlands largest marshalling Rail Yard at Holytown when the Euro Tunnel was completed,other wise they would be shipping the Illegal Immigrants from French Ports direct into Scotland,just to FuK Scottish Indy Gov,its so far removed from reality that is Beleivable,as with Border Posts/Eu, Nato, membership,they’re bubbles well & truely bust.
If we had border posts we would keeping out a lot more bad things than they ever would.
OT – Just watched the BBC interview Ross Murdoch and Dan Wallace and ask them about their chances of representing Team GB in Rio! The boys handled it very well but what a ridiculous question and blatant misuse of the BBC monopoly position in “reporting” the CW Games in a non-political way. Absolutely shocking stuff.
Illegal immigrants in Scotland usually enter the UK legally via visit, spouse and student visas. They become illegal once those visas expire, marriages breaks down or realise they can earn more money working full time rather than attend college. We also have clandestines arriving from Northern Ireland via the ferry and by bus train and automobile (lorrys) via England. And then of course is the fishing boats employing foreign nationals who decide to stay. Therefore being surrounded by water is not going to help much I am afraid or a border for that matter because rUK will never stop issuing visas as it makes them too much money.
Glasgow’s Commonwealth Games has now officially been taken over by the Home Counties BBC and has become the Home Counties Commonwealth Games.
It is taking place on, “home territory.”
Although…The UK (or rUK) does not trust anyone else to police its borders – hence non-membership of Schengen. Mind you, I suspect they have no more success in looking after the borders than any other countries.
The one thing Cameron does not (I cant think why) mention that all these illegal immigrants who fight thier way across Europe from Africa and such to get to the promised land of Great Britain have gone through countries to get here who almost universally have higher levels of benefits than the UK,
now I dont know about anyone else but I cant see a reason to try to illegally enter Britain when I could get a better life in a European country,
He’s playing the wha’s like us card for all its worth but forgets anyone can find out benefit levels in any country at the touch of a google button,
link to forbes.com
and post independence Scotland will almost certainly have (and to an extent already does) a better benefit system that the rUK
It doesnt wash Dave,
try again!
Let’s face it the Westminster lot are laced through with totally bonkers members. Last week we had one who claims we must have Astrology on the national health as he has proven it works in curing people.
Now just how does this numptie decide how he will vote on really vital health and other matters? What might be his thoughts on Fracking, nuclear waste storage or future energy policy? It was bad enough when Cam the Bam told us he consulted his God. Sheesh!
O/T I live in Cyprus and for the last few days I have not been able to get Radio Scotland on the internet. I can get Radios 1-4 ok and Radio Wales etc.BBC Scotland”For contractual reasons or technical problems we are unable to bring you this programme” What is going on?.
It really makes me wonder just how Switzerland has survived all this time! Haha
What would be REALLY interesting is if anyone has or knows where to get the figures on where illegal immigrants to the current UK make landfall, how they got here, etc… Difficult, I know, given their intention is to enter undetected.
I would speculate that it’d be mostly England due to it’s closer proximity to the European continent, it’s numerous docks, airports and the euro tunnel.
As I say, speculation, but it’d highlight perhaps that illegal immigrants are more England’s problem than it is Scotland’s.
That, admittedly sounds a really negative way of presenting things, but it does put buffers on the whole ‘border’ argument, perhaps it’s Scotland who should be erecting borders?
But why would we do that? We want to remain in the EU after all.
Do I regard over 300,000 of our English friends domiciled in Scotland as an insignificant immigration quota?
They are very welcome as a part of the freedom of movement so long as they do not attempt to turn Scotland into an English territory.
Let’s be candid – cultural imperialism is a problem we hope to stem. I don’t see Scots in England demanding Saltires fly over all public and all government buildings, though it would be fair, all things considered.
alastair seago
BBC is going pay by transmission, by the back door, out of the UK that is.
I cannot get iPlayer but they will allow me but a licence to access their library and see selected recorded TV and Radio transmissions.
Live viewing or listening is being shut down slowly but surely.
It is possible to see and listen to the programmes which are restricted to UK only by using a proxy service provider. It sets up a dummy IP in the UK which permits the reception.
There is another scenario where border posts might have to be put up and that is to stop illegal immigrants coming into an independent Scotland. The UK has long complained about France bussing up their unwanted illegal immigrants to Calais so that they could sneak over into the UK. Might this tactic be on the minds of the rUK?
“Let’s be candid – cultural imperialism is a problem we hope to stem.”
Look at BBC’s Common Wealth Games coverage and it’s perfect storm of UKOK cultural domination. Just the fact people are evicted by Police officers from the Glasgow’s Games for having Yes on Scotland flags is an extraordinary example of how desperate they are. Nowhere else in the world would this be tolerated but we have to in Scotland.
Or take the hysterical rage from British nationalists and proud Scot buts, over Salmond waving a Saltire at Wimbledon when Murray won. No one would bat an eye lid if the FM of any other county waved their flag like this but britnats went wild.
O/t
On Facebook people are asking where they can buy YES Saltires! I got mine through the thousands saltire campaign but is anyone selling them?
He he, Yes I put on my facebook some time ago that any illegal immigrants who eschew the 26 mile crossing from France to Dover and instead manage to get their rubber dinghy the 300 miles round Cape Wrath should be welcomed with open arms for their ingenuity and seamanship. Perhaps a posting as an officer in the new Scottish Navy?
I’ve just come home from a fantastic 3 week holiday at a luxury resort on the Moray Firth coast, where, apart from a very few Yes stickers on shop windows, there is no evidence of any interest as yet in the referendum, far less in a physical barrier along the border.
However, if England wish to build such a barrier there may well be little we in Scotland can do about it. Such is life when your neighbour behaves as Westminster does.
All this in a chicken run for which we don’t even have the hatched eggs yet.
We don’t need for border guards, just the hideous blue face painted dude in new statesman’s subscription ad, front page on every online UKOK newspaper. What they hope to achieve with it is another BetterTogether mystery
link to subscriptions.economist.com
@ heedtracker. Maybe they think it’s amusing. Just like when imperialist British magazines used to print cartoons and caricatures of African people.
Debunking Unionist scare stories rests on the assumption that what they claim they will do is silly, so they won’t do it. Maybe we should be careful with that. As Peter Bell has pointed out (sorry, no link), if you treat Gordon Brown’s statement on organ transplants as a statement of fact it’s just plain not true. On the other hand, it can be interpreted as a threat – if you take independence, this is how we will retaliate. Equally, just because border posts would be ludicrously expensive and serve no useful purpose, it doesn’t follow that they won’t be erected. Think Trident.
We know WM is some kind of crazy, it’s why we want out. Can we really expect them to become lucid and pragmatic on September 19th?
PS: Border guards needn’t be a bad thing anyway. 🙂
tinyurl.com/7kymbfu
In just 50 days we can make wrong right.
Perhaps they are going to enlist Eric Cartman from South Park. Key thing is Alex Salmond never said he wanted 24000 new migrants, he said NET migration, which can also be achieved by retaining people already resident in Scotland and reducing the outflow of people. Even if he did, can the costs of a patrolled border possibly be justified by 24k extra migrants? As we know, the vast majority of immigrants come to work, rather than the UKIP fantasy of widespread benefits migrants, and if they are already getting work in Scotland, why bother to ‘sneak’ into rUK?
Such is the efficiency of the UK Border Agency, they might as well lay on buses for illegal immigrants to enter at will. Oh wait, they do –
link to tinyurl.com
Not all the criticism of the BBC games coverage is found in Scotland. Down the Bowls club here in Royal Berkshire yesterday the lads were raging at the cutting off of coverage of Marshall and Foster’s gold medal. How can this happen, they said. They got telt!
Read left foot forward .org blog who say ‘according to OECD & Office for Budget Responsibilty England is in the same position as us so also need to maintain levels of immigration So I can see us both vying for immigrants but I know I’d rather immigrate to somewhere welcoming, now I wonder where that would be 😎
If rUK leaves the EU, then there’ll be an exodus of companies who wish to continue trading in the EU (good for Scotland!). This will worsen the rUK deficit/debt so how will they pay for it.
Think of all the land needed, walls, buildings, crossing points,
roads, facilities like water, electricity, waste clearence etc. Who’ll work there, BNP/EDL/Military, personal costs?
The whole thing is bonkers, Scaremongering from desperate nutters in Westminster and the MSM/Beeb
O/T Did anyone else hear that Cameron is finally introducing a bill to jail the stupid greedy bankers who took ridiculous risks and brought down the world economy.
Well actually NOT because there is a time limit on how far back the legislation will apply that effectively guts it.
What kind of mugs does Dave take us for?
I think we should encourage them, building the wall could be a huge economic boost for the north of England 🙂
Sir Humphrey to Dishface – “..and if we were to privatise this..interesting project Prime minister, you can still count on transferring a good £5bn of the taxpayers hard earned into our ‘friends’ pockets, in set up cost, and another £1bn a year running the border’s..”
Dishface, cutting him off – ” A fine opportunity Sir Humphrey, but too hard a sell. All academic anyhoo, as you might have suspected.”
Sir Humphrey, exiting – ” It’s all academic, if that poll we commissioned was anywhere near right”
Dishface – ” Danny, does that calculator of yours have a reverse setting ?”
Muffled voice from under Dishfaces desk – “Yes, Sir. Plan B?”
Dishface – ” Never you mind. As you were Danny, there’s a safe seat I have my eye on for you”.
Doesn’t matter whether it would be a pointless waste of money or not though. It could happen anyway. The idea is symbolic, like Trident.
And like Trident they are perfectly happy to throw away vast sums to make a point.
These things don’t need to be based on logic or facts to be implemented and there are plenty MPs down south who would support the stupidity.
I see Mr Bolt has woken up to The Times manufactured trolling article today.
He is not a happy bunny but is well aware that the UK media are lying barstewards.
He should sue them.
@ Dan Huil, I think they’ve gone completely mad basically. Every time you go online anywhere to see what’s going on, there’s new statesman in your face monstrous wild eyed Scotch maniac staring at you, oh wait I get it.
Standard Life HQ
Edinburgh to London
link to edinburghnews.scotsman.com
Oh and if their pals build it and A4s man it. it’s a winner transferring tax revenues to the ‘right people’ whilst still having a great PR wheeze that it’s our fault. maybe not completely stupid after all.
@heedtracker
Yes, I’m baffled as to why BT thinks this article strengthens their cause – it’s obviously not written for a Scottish audience. Calling us all whingeing, free-loading and bad tempered? I especially liked the line saying if you go Scotland, all your Edinburgh hedge fund managers will move south – ooft! I can just see the average Scot greetin’ into his beer over that one!
I see Alec is being ‘blasted’ for ‘deception’ re currency union again.
Round and round the roundabout with the same old scare stories.
link to heraldscotland.com
bookie form hell
Ive seen the same stupid article in another paper (might have been the Telegraph – did have a hose down afterwards)
All about Standard Life buying a large chunk of property in London
Strange as it may seem to these so called journalists , the main part of Standard Life’s business IS buying and selling property as part of its property investment business.
They recently bought a large chunk of property in Edinburgh, but for some reason we didn’t get the gutter press claiming that Standard Life are staying, strange that 😉
Another reason not to put up border posts, of course, is that it would nullify Westminster’s Schengen opt-out.
Totally agree this has always been nonsense, as the citizens of Scotland would also have UK citizenship, as agreed by Westminster already.
Don’t be too hard on yourself, Rev. This story has so many ridiculous holes in it, it’s hard to know where to start.
If Scotland votes YES in the referendum and remains a member of the EU, and if rUK votes to leave the EU In 2017 Iam sure there will be a flood of EU migrants moving from rUK to Scotland. Welcome one and all!!
O/T
BBC Scotland did, “Scotland’s contribution to the slave trade”, last night on their politics programme.
Apparently Scots are totally ignorant about this piece of Scotland’s history. Well I wasn’t and thousands of others, I am sure, are not either. It’s only a few months ago that Robert Burns was being slagged off by the same BBC for his part in it. If people are ignorant about the subject, then the BBC have failed in their duty to tell Scots over the years.
Why in the middle of the Glasgow Commonwealth Games would they want to discuss this?
I am sure that the Jamaican and Malawian athletes would have been transfixed if they happened to tune in to this programme and they would not have been ignorant of their history either.
It seems that BBC Scotland’s news has been reduced to not much more than tittle tattle that could be heard any day in the washhouses up and down the country. They have outlived their usefulness and no longer serve the Scottish public who pay them their licence fees.
Great to see the latest YES group get off the ground. Peterhead fisherman launch,
“Fishing for YES”
link to buchanobserver.co.uk
Malcom Offord reveals his plans to remove a different border, this time merging with France.
link to youtube.com
… a fun Day Today style new news channel featuring Jack Foster from Scotland Yet.
Oh, and Jesus says No.
Whod hav thought it a London based newspaper misquotes Usain Bolt by claiming he said Glasgow games was far inferior to London Olympics.
O/T
BBC Home nations games news:
So far british sportsmen and women have hauled in 159 medals, with 93 of those won by England. Together, the home nations dominate the medal table, surpassing even Australia.
Yesterday, the home nations secured more medal wins for the home nations and Britain. England secured double gold in Gymnastics, and the other British competitors were also successful.
Today, there are further opportunities for home nations winning medals for Britain, including England at athletics.
The home nations will also compete in the diving, which started today, with high hopes for Tom Daley of England and team GB, to achieve gold for England and Britain later in the week. The other home nations may win medals to add to the british tally.
A spokesman stated ‘ These home games, on our home soil in Britain, have been great for England, and the other home nations. Our british athletes have shown just how good they can be, when they pull together. We will build on the success of team England and the other homes nations, moving forward as we plan team GB for Rio.
The BBC. Colonial broadcasting for the 21st century.
Whist the London based presenters are going out of their way to pick at all and every aspect of the presentation of the games, Last night the pundits on BBC’s Scotland 2014 seemed to think it would have been difficult for the organizers, those who enforce the rules, to ban the use of The Union Jack in the stadium even although it was against the rules.
I wonder too if those winning athletes who are being interviewed and the BBC presenters have been coached to say how wonderful the Glasgow audience is. It appears to be too regular an occurrence (100% by my reckoning) to be a natural and heartfelt response.
Gushing, gratuitous, outbursts is not my cup of tea.
@ Vronsky says at 10:09
Double plus good.
This is what we will do to you if you vote YES.
psychologically resonant.
Todays BBBC slant on UKOK MSM.
Heavy on squirrel content, ebola doomsday, & migrant bashing.
Not a lot about Gaza being reduced to rubble.
link to bbc.co.uk
As for the BBBC and their crimes of omission and obfuscation.
Burnham letting the cat out the bag on Labours privatisation plans for the NHS is hidden away in the Health section, and their puff piece skirting around the Eton boys shiny new fracking law is squirrelled away in the Science, and Business section’s.
ie Out of plain sight. Move on people, nothing to see here..
link to bbc.co.uk
link to bbc.co.uk
@alastair seago says: 30 July, 2014 at 9:13 am:
“O/T I live in Cyprus and for the last few days I have not been able to get Radio Scotland on the internet.
He, Alastair, BBC have been mucking around with DAB radio channels, (I’ve never tried any other broadcasts), and have replaced Radio Scotland at certain times with a pop-up Commonwealth Channel. They may be doing the same with their on-line stuff.
British Games, Glasgow 2014.
Been swearing at telly since it started.
Always knew it would be hijacked and deliberately didn’t watch opening ceremony. Only watching now to reinforce my hatred of all things BBC and British!
Even the name, Common Wealth was always a lie. We all know who benefited from the ‘Empire’
Things really don’t change, do they?
But they WILL, shortly…..
O/T
Tories are proposing a flat rate of tax for everyone of 31%, utterly terrifying consequences for a No vote if this is true:
link to theguardian.com
BBC England really do think that the Scots are a right shower of halfwits.
To try and tell us that the Union Jack is nothing other than a neutral flag, right at the height of the referendum debate, is utter nonsense.
All that’s missing from a Union Jack getting waved at the Commonwealth Games are the words “Vote NO” being printed on it.
It should be banned, the same as the YES Saltire is banned.
BBC motto ,
“Do as I say, not as I do”.
@Robert Louis 11.20am
Picked up on the, Home Teams, Home Nations, Rio Olympics shit yesterday Robert.
It’s because an independent Scotland will be full of incompetent morons that can’t do anything right, and will let in anybody with a false moustache & Crayola passport. Best to let Westminster deal with it.
At least, that’s the message we’re getting from Better Together.
@ caz-m
I was at the gymnastics yesterday with girlfriend and her mum (quite enjoyed it actually!), but there was a huge 6ft x 4ft Union jack right in the middle of the audience, every time the camera panned round you couldn’t miss it.
There was also a group of women behind us with small Union Jacks and when we unfurled our big saltire one of them informed us that they tried to get saltires but couldn’t find any, so they made do with Union jacks as there were “plenty” of them available…
@Grouse Beater says: 30 July, 2014 at 9:28 am:
“Let’s be candid – cultural imperialism is a problem we hope to stem. I don’t see Scots in England demanding Saltires fly over all public and all government buildings, though it would be fair, all things considered.”
Grouse Beater, I was brought up in a rural area then moved to Edinburgh and spent much of my education in Leith. Leith then was Scotlands major Dock area. The schools were full of people from all over the World. Some of them several generation born in Scotland.
The thing was they didn’t live in ghetto areas and no one bothered where they came from. They arrived, were accepted and before long were speaking Scots, supporting Hibs, dancing at the Elderado Ballroom and Stadium, Fountainbrig Paaly, et al. We absorb them, enriched our nation and move on
And WHY are BBC England allowed to make up all the rules for the GLASGOW 2014 Commonwealth Games?
Oh how they just love having TOTAL control over you.
To burst free from those Westminster English Establishment shackles on 18th September, you must
Vote YES.
Flower of Scotland says:
30 July, 2014 at 9:56 amO/t
On Facebook people are asking where they can buy YES Saltires! I got mine through the thousands saltire campaign but is anyone selling them?
“Newsnet Scotland has an AD for them”
@IanH says: 30 July, 2014 at 10:35 am:
“I think we should encourage them, building the wall could be a huge economic boost for the north of England”
Oh! Come on IanH, this is the Westminster we are talking about. They would probably give the wall construction contract to the China or Israel in exchange for an arms export deal. Probably China, though, as they have a long history building big walls.
There’s another obvious reason why there would be no border controls. There is already a Common Travel Area between the UK, the Rep of Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. If Scotland votes yes, they will simply negotiate the same agreement with the Irish, etc as they have now. That would make border controls meaningless between England and Scotland. All an immigrant would have to do would be fly from Scotland to Dublin and cross the Irish border.
And they won’t be erecting any border controls across the Irish border, it would create merry hell.
How noticeable now that the Glasgow commonwealth
Games have apparently finished early and the BBC home countries
Games are in full swing Oh look how “better together” we are as “home
Countries” all playing happily together .
@bookie from hell says: 30 July, 2014 at 10:44 am:
“Standard Life HQ Edinburgh to London”
These stories are all utter bunk. Why would an established compant up stakes in Scotland when no matter what else happens the will have to register a headquarters in Scotland to pay their taxes for their Scottish business to a Scottish Government’s treasury? That’s the reason for a registered office – to pay tax or to claim tax refief on the business you do in that country.
Sorry hate to go off topic but back to the flags fiasco-
No contradiction with this statement from Police Scotland and Union flags then:
“Police Scotland later issued a statement saying that officers were acting in line with the ticketing terms and conditions laid down by the Games organisers and that political messages or symbols are not allowed within venues”.
The statement said: “Comments suggesting Police Scotland does not allow Saltire Flags into venues is inaccurate. Saltire Flags are allowed into venues as are flags associated with other competing nations.However, flags from non-competing nations or flags affiliated with to other organisations or causes, political or otherwise, are restricted.”
Does someone want to write to Police Scotland and the games organisers about this breach?
u insane bolt
alleged comment Glasgow a bit shit
why would paper print it,even if he did say it?
his high profile destroys all PR that has been great about the Glasgow Games
Bookie it’s just the press at their worst struggling for headlines!
A lot of anger on Twitter about Laura Muir being tripped by Crams girl Weightman and then the commentry blackout. If it had been the other way around…. This was a Scottish athlete about to sprint for the line in her comfort zone so no question of ability or her tying up. She said she was tripped but was too polite to make an issue of it!
manandboy says:
30 July, 2014 at 10:01 am
I’ve just come home from a fantastic 3 week holiday at a luxury resort on the Moray Firth coast, where, apart from a very few Yes stickers on shop windows, there is no evidence of any interest as yet in the referendum, far less in a physical barrier along the border.
I am currently on holiday on the moray coast ( Findochty ),
And I see plenty Yes posters, car stickers. Yes flags, and the locals I have spoken to all seem clued up, with the vast majority for Yes.
I agree the patrolled border seems extremely unlikely and ridiculous.
“Anyone who’s a legal immigrant will by definition then become a citizen of Scotland, and as such entitled to live and work anywhere in the EU. There would be absolutely nothing the rUK could do to prevent such a person moving to the rUK, and therefore no point in putting up border controls to try to stop them.”
This is so true in the first place but if the rUK leaves the EU then the claim by the rUK scaremongers could be that citizens of Scotland may not be welcomed openly, immigrants or not.
Again this does not make any practical sense.
Hi Alistair
Sounds similar to what I encountered in Tighnabruich.80% Yes. Got involved in a debate with two of the no side. An English cafe owner and a Northern Irish Unionist hectoring a local. Noticed their better together sticker in the cafe after I had paid so otherwise I wouldn’t have stayed for my coffee!
P.S told the local guy to chin up as he wouldn’t win with people that just talk over you and are hardline. No irony in the fact they moved away from their own countries for a better life but want to keep Scotland in the yolk of Yoooo K.
“Even if Scotland had taken in 10 million immigrants, they’d be legal EU citizens and perfectly entitled to move to the rUK if they wanted”
Well, that’s assuming rUK stay in the EU, which we keep getting told by the SNP is unlikely to happen – ‘biggest danger to our chances of being in the EU’ etc etc.
Presumably if Scotland leaves, rUK will be even more likely to vote to leave the EU, given they’ll have lost millions of what the SNP seem to think are entirely pro-EU voters.
bookie from hell
Actually from what I’m reading its certain so called journalists having a strop
If I mention Angus McLeod of the Times, then it should become clear.
From what Ive gleaned is that Usain Bolt was enjoying himself at the games. The press wanted to interview him, further to the press conference. But Bolt’s minders were having none of it and kept the journalists at bay, unable to get any slant they could.
So the Times came out with the ‘Bolt thinks the CG is shit’ story. Up jumps Angus McLeod and states that he is 100% behind the alleged story
Now interestingly Usain Bolt is not that enamored with the BBC for some reason
link to twitter.com
Kenny Campbell claims that EU employment law benefits British workers, thus he is agreeing with the employers and their organisations. In the real world, the EU is pro-capital, pro-privatisation, anti-employment rights, anti-trade union. The proposed EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership [TTIP] proves this. The TTIP is not (just) transatlantic; it is not about trade; it is not about investment; and it is not about partnership. It would benefit only the big corporations in the USA and the EU, at the expense of the working classes of the world.
That is why many of our unions now have policy against TTIP, and why many think TTIP stands for Transnationals’ Treaty for Imposing Privatisation.
Lunch hour over at GCHQ 👿 have a nice shift 🙂
Bolt should spend less time posing and talking and more time running. People paid good money, hotel expenses etc, to see him run. There doesn’t look much wrong with him. Or could he just not be bothered.
Kev says:
30 July, 2014 at 11:59 am
As an offshore worker and I would benefit greatly from a 31% flat rate. However I’m still voting YES and I am still prepared to pay more tax at an even higher rate than present to Holyrood.
Divide and Rule plus Fear doesn’t build a fair society.
So if EU is pro corporations then why do ‘Business Leaders’ spend so much time whinging about working time directive, paternity leave or too restrictive employment legislation.
flower of scotland
the yes shop on hope street has got aye saltires all sizes from£5
also just across from marks&sparks on argyle street a shop has loads of saltires lion ramparts again all sizes plus capes and everything scottish with good prices
just look for the two scottish flags above the shop front
I’m a newbie to this site I haven’t posted here before. I’m undecided and a pal at work suggested I should visit the site to get some idea about the arguments for independence.
I must say although the site’s got lots of articles attacking the UK and the no campaign, it doesn’t really seem to have much positive about independence or the benefits of it.
And most of the comments seem to be irrelevant stuff about the commonwealth games and flags and complaining about the BBC.
I’m disappointed, its not as good as my pal suggested.
Kenny asks, “So if EU is pro corporations then why do ‘Business Leaders’ spend so much time whinging about working time directive, paternity leave or too restrictive employment legislation?”
Because capitalists complain if workers, by their organising efforts, get anything more than starvation wages and appalling conditions. Capitalists would drive us all down to Qatari-level conditions if they could. They use the EU to further their own interests, which are opposed to ours. That is the real division in Britain, not the trumped-up division on national lines. Unite and fight.
But having said that I certainly think its a good idea to get the other side of the argument, there doesn’t seem to be much in the mainstream media.
@Will Podmore.
Do you ever post on Irish blogs, urging them to rejoin the union? If not, why?
Hey, let’s look at a positive outcome from a ‘Controlled Border’ we could reduce significantly the trafficking of People and Drugs into Scotland.
Auld Rock
Ref. the “Times of London” article on Bolt, the two “Scottish correspondents”
Angus Macleod and Lindsay Macintosh have been “running continuously” (however
They missed the games qualifying “times”, with any anti independence angle
Since the “starting gun” on the referendum was fired.
A classic case of “bought and sold …. You know the rest readers”
@Ross McKay
What kind of information are you looking for? Have you looked at the reference section? Or the White Paper? What questions do you want answered? Try asking what you might like to know.
Test
I’m curious – in an independent Scotland will a company like, say, Tesco, have to have a Scotland Headquarters and pay Scottish corporation tax? Could they keep HQ in rUK and manipulate costs to pay little tax in Scotland, similar to what Starbucks and all the other tax avoiders do with their Euro based HQs? What, indeed, is to stop them from charging higher prices in Scotland and saying it is a consequence of distribution costs? Particularly if it is perceived at some point that Scotland has got more disposable income.
In short, curious what readers think the cost of living would be like in iScotland, and whether there would be a different RPI to rUK even if we were using Sterling.
HaHa 👿 central on this thread today 🙂
@Black Douglas – presume that was aimed at me. I am curious about some of the outcomes of a winning Yes vote – is that wrong?
They do seem to have upped their online game.
Working in packs of two, or three…
@Defo – It would appear so! remember don’t feed them as they will only come back for more 🙂
Andy – I don’t know the answer to your second question, but wrt the first question, I think that’s partly why rUK doesn’t want Scotland to go independent. They are afraid you’ll lower your corporation tax to compete with theirs and businesses will relocate their HQs to Scotland.
So posting links to articles about Gaza isn’t derailing the thread, whereas wondering how large pan-UK trading companies will deal with a new border is?
So Wil Podmore you admit then that Eu legislation is pro worker ? I’m not sure what your point is then…
EU bring in Human Rights , minimum employment rights and social rights. All embedded in law and its somehow anti worker.
Your UKIP alternative is reject the EU, allow Westminster to remove Human Rights act and further weaken employment law. Hope for the best in fact…while the rest of us still on Earth can see what is ahead should we leave the EU.
UK already has weakest employment rights law in EU. If it were not for the EU we’d all still be working 40 hours a week basic
Joannie – there may be something in that. Having read up a bit I think where it gets dangerous is where there is a perceived collusion between state and specific companies link to europa.eu
@jimmie,
Cameron is bluffing on the EU.
If he’s not then he’d be agreeing to Scotland & England divorcing as equals.
If all the bluster about Scotland being kicked out of the EU were true then the same would apply to England, which would save on all the bother of them having an in/out referendum in the first place.
@flower of Scotland,
ASDA do the Saltire in a onezie. :-p
they didn’t live in ghetto areas and no one bothered where they came from
they didn’t live in ghetto areas and no one bothered where they came from
I have no idea how that refers to my remarks.
Italians, Chinese, Polish, et al, none expect Scotland to be a carbon copy of their own country. That doesn’t hold true for many of our English cousins who expect Scotland to be like a stick of Blackpool Rock – it has ‘British’ written all the way through.
Andy – I don’t really think the issues raised in your link have anything to do with the Scottish independence debate. Those issues could arise within the UK just as easily as in an independent Scotland.
@Andy,
The whole cross-border profit allocation thing is a massive problem across the EU (and indeed on a wider scale than that). Naturally, companies will take advantage of tax rules to allocate their profits to subsidiaries in low tax regimes (often Luxembourg) The problem can only be solved in pan-EU negotiations (which I believe are happening) or by replacing corporation tax with a different tax – perhaps on turnover or on value added…
Of course we can start looking at new tax models (but only with independence are we likely to be able to create new fiscal levers.
The SG’s fiscal commission & the IFS both address this problem:
link to scotland.gov.uk
link to ifs.org.uk
I wrote to a Labour MP once whose reply still has me puzzled. I’d sooner have a penfriend in Outer Mongolia for a better grasp on what is happening in Scotland.
As for Borders. Didn’t Labour support Borders in Ireland, India, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, Vietnam, Korea, Palestine? Please sur, I forget the rest.
@Joannie – the link I gave was just in the context of some of the difficulties arising from approaches that some EU countries have taken to secure a competitive advantage over neighbouring countries.
@kininvie – thanks, some interesting analysis in both docs.
Ah, but stu, your memory is tricking you.
t isn’t a matter of “Why didn’t I see that before?” because “before” was when they were still saying with straight face that it would be “impossible” for Scotland to get into the EU.
Barosso’s smug grin and all that, remember? That was an essential component of the “border checkpoints” scare.
The mutually contradictory scare-story at that time, the alternative compulsion to border checkpoints, was “You won’t be allowed to keep the UK’s opt-outs if you join the EU. You’ll have to join Schengen, so you can’t be in the British Isles free travel area”.
After people remembered that the whole point of the EU is to take down barriers, and that the EU gave these islands the Schengen opt out for reasons based on geography – natural coastal borders – the “forced Schengen” story was seen for the ridiclous invention that is it, and they quietly dropped that too.
Like christopher Wren’s dome that doesn’t actually rest on those pillars, the “border checks” meme was always disconnected from both contradictory pretexts.
The pretexts have been pretty much demolished, but the border-checkpoints meme has continued to be tossed about by BT, free-floating (and as truly baseless as ever).
You just temporarily forgot the original opposing pretexts for it, which have crumbled quietly to dust over the course of a year.
@Grouse Beater – My parents come from Wales and Cumbria, two constituent parts of the Brythonic kingdom that pre-dates Scotland by hundreds of years and which included everything south of the Antonine Wall. As soon as this debate turns to “they”, as if our southern neighbours are some homogeneous entity with no shared history, you’ve lost me, and many like me.
^^^^”shared culture”, would be more accurate.
Andy
This Brythonic stuff is a bit anorakish for me. you are losing me.
Does Tesco have an Irish HQ? Does Marks and Spencer have HQs in the countries in which they operate.There might be an answer there. What will happen if the UK leaves the EU?
I have the view that each company will need to take careful decisions so that their market share isn’t impaired since profit is a key driver and Aldi and Lidl are breathing down their necks. Remember that Aldi, at least, has different locality branding and head offices throughout Europe link to aldi.com so it is possible that Tesco might follow suit
Aldi and Lidl are run by two German brothers, who are more respectful of Scotland’s culture and identity than any of the English supermercats.
@ andy
“What, indeed, is to stop them from charging higher prices in Scotland and saying it is a consequence of distribution costs? “
The customers who stop shopping in their stores and go instead to rivals who charge less.
I’m Miss the obvious – I love living here, I moved here by choice and I am doing everything I can to make this a modern democratic nation.
Could Andy be our friend Rory the Tory?
link to handsacrosstheborder.co.uk
Black Douglas
I wonder if Stu understands why they can’t resist it ?
I see another hairdryer type, exasperated outburst from our dear leader coming to a thread near here soon.
“What, indeed, is to stop them from charging higher prices in Scotland and saying it is a consequence of distribution costs? “
Sorry, did I miss something?
Have you seen the price hikes we’ve had up here in Scotland over the years?
As far as I can see they’re already doing this.
As soon as this debate turns to “they”,
That’s a knee jerk response. I did not even imply that.
rUK… pushing to remove themselves from Europe… Isolate themselves from an iScotland… who exactly are the Separitists?
@Grouse Beater – do I have to quote you? – Do I regard over 300,000 of our English friends domiciled in Scotland as an insignificant immigration quota? They are very welcome as a part of the freedom of movement so long as they do not attempt to turn Scotland into an English territory.
Have you noticed McDonalds? Burger King? Starbucks?
But you are more concerned about people from a country that we live next door to/work with/marry ?
Incidentally the 300k you mention will be Scottish citizens on day one of independence if it happens.
Andy Pandy falls on his face: But you are more concerned about people from a country
Where are the 300,000 Americans living in Scotland? You should take notice of the topic title before you try to make mischief: Sometimes you miss the obvious.
And where did I say I welcome American imperialism? To quote them – take a hike!
@Grouse Beater – our high streets are full of American stores, TV rammed full of American shows, etc, etc, but you preserve your ire for people who we have lived alongside for thousands of years. So tell us, what would these English people that you are so scared of do to turn Scotland into an English territory? How would that manifest itself?
Andy – why are you trying so hard to create racial friction. You misrepresent much and your grasp on history is far from convincing. Why do the English display so much ire against the Scots, Irish, French, Germans, Russians, Arabs of all nationalities, and indeed almost every other race on the planet. You tell me why that is and i’ll tell you why I still like the English despite their overbearing and dishonest politicians, sportspeople, broadcasters and print media and their all consuming love of themselves.
@Bill McLean – unfortunately unlike you I don’t have the advantage of intimate knowledge of 53 million peoples’ prejudices.
Curious to know what is wrong with my grasp of history – care to expand?
Andy – unfortunately I’ve little time for sarcastic trolling remarks. If you have no insight into the British view of foreigners then you have not been paying attention!
Your “grasp of history” is what has led you to where you are and I don’t care to expand. I have much more interesting things to do like leafleting people with the truth of mighty Britain who, so far, has not had the guts to condemn the Israeli slaughter of Gazans- maybe a better grasp of history would enlighten you. Ignorance and arrogance often walk hand in hand and leads to the type of xenophobia often displayed in the “British” media! Now I don’t doubt you will feel slighted and offended but I won’t be responding to you any more. I don’t have any rose-tinted view of the blood besmirched history of Britain!
Sounds like you get your view of the English through the telly Bill. Still, I’ll let you crack on as it sounds like you’ve got important work to do. When the kids in your village shout names at you, just pull the foil hat over your ears.
“As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;”
Caroline
Desiderata?
Brings to mind the hippy years, loon pants and kaftans and all
Andy – i’ll break my own rule here due to you total misrepresentation of my post. I did not mention the English in my second post and in my first I asked why they had ire against almost every race on the planet which you failed to address. I lived in England from 1962 until 1997
and as I wrote I like the English. However, I do not like any part of their war-mongering, arrogant and ignorant establishment – now do you understand. Your sill remarks at the end of your last post are not worth my time but clearly you enjoy being juvenile. Pity, there may be some sense somewhere – maybe when you are older!!
Andy Pandy: our high streets are full of American stores, TV rammed full of American shows, etc, etc
You don’t say?
Well, at least I can smell a troll before I see him.
You need to be careful with definitions lest they undermine the point you’re trying to make. Most legal immigrants will not become citizens- they’ll be here on work, study or tourism visas. But we still don’t need a border: any rights conferred by a Scottish visa would only apply in Scotland so although migrants could physically enter rUK they would not be able to work legally or access services such as NHS (if there’s anything left of it). We’d be part of a common travel area – as the Republic of Ireland is now.
@Grouse Beater – what kind of an idiot keeps replying to a troll?
Isn’t the real issue here that, when not if the rUK leaves the EU, iScotland will be obliged under EU treaty to set up border controls to prevent non-EU immigration from england?
I’m pro-indy and worry that the cost of the border under this circumstance will weigh heavy.
“Isn’t the real issue here that, when not if the rUK leaves the EU, iScotland will be obliged under EU treaty to set up border controls to prevent non-EU immigration from england?”
Short answer: no.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
eddie says:
“the cost of the border under this circumstance will weigh heavy.”
The worry of being in full union with England when it pulls out of the EU is a greater concern.
It would still be cheap at the price.
You and my comb:
Yes, Desiderata, I always have that bit in mind when I come across those who either are trolls or are behaving in a troll like fashion. Avoid loud and aggressive persons is amongst the best advice for online interaction I’ve ever read.
It brought to mind the record that my sister had. I can’t remember who spoke it but it had a choir singing a chorus.
But you are right. It is good advice