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Wings Over Scotland

Six paragraphs later

Posted on April 03, 2014 by

Bill Jamieson in the Scotsman today:

Yes, there should be No poll abuse

The independence debate has been getting ever nastier and it’s time for all sides to take a breath.”

It must have been a short breath, because just six paragraphs later:

“Bill Munro, the head of Barrhead Travel, one of our most successful Scottish companies, was subjected to a volley of threats and abuse after he advised staff in a letter to vote No.

A line has been crossed here between fair rebuttal and menacing nastiness. More of this and we could be on the way towards a Caledonian Kristallnacht.”

Because a surefire way to calm debate is to liken one side to the Nazis, right?

Bill Munro’s letter was a demented outpouring of ridiculous lies designed not to “advise” anyone on anything, but to frighten hundreds of people into voting No for fear of losing their livelihoods. Anger is a perfectly rational, legitimate reaction to it. We saw no “threats” at all, and certainly no action, not even in the form of a vicious sticker.

To cite the murderous organised rioting of Kristallnacht in the context of a few people shouting a bit on the internet isn’t only hysterical, it’s wildly irresponsible. The article offers up the usual figleaf handful of weasel words about both sides being responsible, but focuses almost entirely on the alleged misdeeds of those favouring a Yes vote.

It comes just hours after a UKIP candidate called Yes supporters “CyberNazis” on a Scotland Tonight special, mere days after a ludicrous lead article in Standpoint magazine comparing Alex Salmond and the SNP to fascists (filleted admirably by Alex Massie in the Spectator), and the constant low-level jibes on the same subject that constantly seep out from the No camp and the media.

Just in case some standard-issue Nazi smears aren’t doing the job, for good measure Jamieson goes on to poke the bear a little bit further, asserting:

“A key reason the debate has become so heated is frustration over the lack of answers on major issues. These include what currency we might have”

Dear God above. If there’s a passage which might yet one day, in real life, lead to someone getting a referendum-related smack in the mouth, it’s that. The answer on an independent Scotland’s currency has been given approximately ten thousand times. If you’re reading, Bill, it’s “Sterling”. An independent Scotland will use STERLING.

Most sane observers, whether Yes or No or neither, agree that that will be in the form of a currency union. But if in some extraordinary fit of pique the rUK is mad enough to refuse, no force on Earth can prevent Scotland from using Sterling anyway. The question has been answered, endlessly and comprehensively. Bill Jamieson is a liar.

If you want to create anger, if you’re actually trying to provoke violence, the best way to do it is to keep telling reasonable people a crude, blatant lie over and over again. So in the strongest possible terms, we urge readers NOT to lamp Bill Jamieson (or any other cloth-witted, tin-eared idiot honking such drivel) right in the teeth the next time they utter this moronic falsehood. It’s what they want. It’d never be off the front pages.

The media’s main role in the independence debate is that of the school bully. It wants to keep punching the Yes campaign every day, driving it to the edge of tolerance with remorseless torment and outrageous injustice, pushing it beyond reason. But all bullies are cowards, and the minute the victim fights back the bully will run squealing to teacher and it’s the Yes camp that’ll find itself in detention.

So don’t play into their hands. Don’t smash any windows. Don’t punch anyone. Just bite your lip, carry on working, and keep doing what we’re doing, because that’s the thing that’s scaring the living hell out of them.

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  1. 04 07 14 17:44

    Gie’s Peace! | A Wilderness of Peace

  2. 17 06 16 20:16

    All Unions Are Not Equal | A Wilderness of Peace

185 to “Six paragraphs later”

  1. alexicon says:

    “…someone getting a referendum-related smack in the mouth”

    That’s already been done by a unionist supporter who attacked an OAP YES campaigner in Edinburgh.

  2. fairiefromtheearth says:

    I thought it was my crowd fund for a rope factory that was scaring the hell out of them?

  3. Gizzit says:

    The more strident and abusive they become, the better. It is indicative of how rattled they are – they wouldn’t be resorting to such blatant attempts to silence dissent if they weren’t worried about the referendum outcome.

  4. Scott says:

    I like this bit.
    . But all bullies are cowards, and the minute the victim fights back the bully will run squealing to teacher and it’s the Yes camp that’ll find itself in detention.

    This reminds me of Carmichael turning to Rhona for help when Ms Sturgeon was giving him a doing.

  5. Chris Darroch says:

    Nice work Rev Campbell. You are an excellent reporter.

  6. Alt Clut says:

    Dead right Stu ! Here comes the first dirty trick following the ongoing implosion of BT. DON’T BE PROVOKED ! we’re going to win if we keep cool and respond to this desperate drivel by pushing harder and harder for a big YES majority. We’re on the brink of making history – keep together and push on !

  7. Derec says:

    When the debate has descended to a level where a frequent No tactic is to invoke Godwin’s Law, then Yes pretty much has this in the bag. Demonising Yes campaigners will only serve to further the pro-independance cause.

  8. bookie from hell says:

    not a sticker—we got it down to a virtual sticker

  9. dandydowser says:

    Somewhat ironic that Jamieson employs Godwin’s Law in his article whilst using the Big Lie tactic or to give it its original term ‘Große Lüge’ – which was first pioneered and used by the Third Reich.

  10. Danny says:

    I’m quite impressed by the restraint being shown by most on the YES side. The unionists are pushing and pushing hoping for some response and when they don’t get they have to resort to blowing any small thing out of proportion.
    However there is still plenty of time to go and as the fear and panic gets worse then it will be more than sticking some YES stickers on their office and screaming vandalism.
    By the way how is Adam Busby ???? must be time to wheel him out soon.

  11. Vincent McDee says:

    We all know Bill slant of old and it rarely has been pretty.

    Is par for the course, very much like Brian Monteith:(all usual health and insurance warnings apply)

    Readers unfamiliar with the referendum debate are probably also unaware that the SNP’s extravagant claims for providing more childcare – given top billing at the launch of the White Paper – have been left in tatters after some investigative work by The Herald political editor Tom Gordon, using FOIs, demonstrated the financial calculations were an invention.

  12. John Smithmaybe says:

    The mention of Kristallnacht made me think of some realtime nazi-admirers who have been visiting rue st denis to promote their own disgusting version of ‘narrow nationalism’ and ethnicity. the street runs perpendicular to rue marie stuart – i guess we’re simply going this way and they’re going that way.

  13. Jimbo says:

    Great article, and so very true. A boy at my school used to get bullied a lot. Until that is, he started to use his intelligence and wit against these bullies. They soon stopped in their tracks as they knew he had the power to verbally ridicule them and show them up as the weak minded buffoons they were…much to the enjoyment of the bystanders.

    Keep it up Rev!

  14. Brian Powell says:

    I put this on the previous thread but worth repeating.

    Before leaving the Ian Murray sticker incident, it is worth while having a look at this article on Newsnet Scotland.

    It contrasts the sticker (see photo) with a real incident at Nicola Sturgeon’s office, no big fuss was made.

  15. Thank goodness for on line news sharing, if we did not have that we would be apathetic or scared out of our wits. Its due to the truth getting through to everyone they’re resorting to making up stories & blatant lying. We have come this far we can do it.
    When on line we should remind each other to tone it down.
    Thanks for all you have done & still doing

  16. heedtracker says:

    Their headlines on the 19th Sept will be “Scotland votes yes” then normal service will continue with attack after attack on everything democratic and Scots. We’re used to it now. Anyway its often a generational movement, this democracy. Plus they used to own 120 other big countries around the globe so the last one is going to hurt the most.

  17. caz-m says:

    I am still in shock at the tirade of abuse from Ian McGill, of Better Together.

    He lost the plot during a radio phone-in yesterday and re-christened us cybernats,

    “internet bampots…”

    Din’t know whether laugh at him or cry at the insult.

  18. Mosstrooper says:

    Regarding the Bill Munro/Barrhead Travel farrago I have been wondering how he, Bill Munro, was able to access the names and addresses of the employees if he is an ex-officio member of the board of Barrhead Travel. What of the Data Protection laws? Perhaps a Winger with more knowledge than I can answer this.

  19. Hewitt83 says:

    Stuff like this is exactly why I am scunnered with the whole thing.

    Nothing will stop me from voting Yes but this subject is really starting to bring out the very worst in some people 🙁

  20. David says:

    The more rattled the NO campaign gets the more desperate they become. With all the lies about so-called Yes violence acted upon constituent offices, vitriol against someone who threatened his staff to voye No or plain name-calling ‘cyber-nat’, they look and sound very pathetic. Do the people of Scotland really want to heed their advice?

  21. Ross Andrew says:

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

    Bill Monroe/Joseph Goebbels

  22. Barontorc says:

    Just how low can Bill Jamieson sink? He very well knows he’s lying through his teeth on currency and that’s me ignoring his puerile nazi taunts. I take it he shaves each morning without the proverbial mirror. Disgraceful.

  23. Howard Kennedy says:

    Has anyone been able to access the metadata of the image of the carefully placed single YES sticker? My guess it will show that the image was taken AFTER the lies were found out – ie the image was fabricated in a damage limitation exercise.

  24. Muscleguy says:

    Hmmm, you do seem to have a fine sense of where the lines of the laws of libel and incitement lie there Rev*.

    But part of me worries that this piece is ripe for some quotation absent of context and thus is a big hostage to fortune. Or are you hoping for that and this is a hephalump trap of an article?

    *And being resident in Bath it is not the more benign Scottish libel law that will apply.

  25. McDuff says:

    Does Jamieson comprehend that he is suggesting that 40% of the Scottish electorate are Nazi`s.

  26. David Sharp says:

    This is the next stage of project Fear.

    To denigrate the massive grassrootsz knowing full well that as the mo camp cannot match our numbers, to undermine the publics trust in us is the next best thing.

    They don’t have to engaging in debate this way.

    Black arts people

    Black arts.

  27. DougtheDug says:

    The “Nazi” jibe comes from both left and right so it’s hard to pin down exactly why it has so much traction in the unionist alliance.

    It may be down to the example of the United States who have to have a figurehead they can demonize so for the unionists the Scottish independence campaign becomes all about Alex Salmond the wannabe dictator and his henchmen.

    It may be from the this country’s obsession with the Second World War even though surviving servicemen are getting few and far between. Anyone who was 18 and in the forces in 1945 is now 87. This obsession with the second world war means a threat to Britain is equated with Nazism by default.

    Other independence movements such as Kosovo, South Sudan, Slovenia, Slovakia or the Czech republic were not immediately linked to nazis so there’s probably a lot of Nimbyism at play as well where independence and self-determination are good until it happens in my country.

    At its heart it’s political ignorance and stupidity. The political spectrum they can understand runs all the way from A to B. At point A are the establishment parties, B is nazism.

    As loyal British nationalists they can’t understand why anyone would want an independent Scotland so the only way they can rationalize it is to assume it’s option B, the work of an organised, fascist minority faction. In other words, Nazis.

  28. Bobby Mckail says:

    I have said it before on here, the more they talk about ‘cybernats’ the more people will look on the Internet for those ‘vile’ people, only to discover that there is only one side who is abusive and the other, Yes camp, who bend over backwards to answer questions and try to help folk make up their mind.

  29. Robert Louis says:

    I think this piece is bang on the money. There is NOTHING the no campaign want more, than for someone to actually do something stupid in the name of a YES vote. We have the winning arguments, the no campaign is losing, and with each passing day, more and more Scots are realising just how much they have been lied to by London and the poodle ‘Scottish’ media.

    We will win, if we keep our heads.

    As for those such as Bill Jamieson (who really should know better), relating the democratic and peaceful campaign for Scottish independence to nazism is not just offensive to those who ACTUALLY experienced it, it’s actually very, very immature.

    Isn’t the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ now just a bad joke on the people of Scotland. Glad to hear their sales have hit the floor.

    Having said all that, as we get close to them losing in September, I would not for one second, put it past the London tory funded and run anti independence campaign, to wilfully employ ‘agents provocateurs’ to incite trouble, just as they have done before in Scotland in the 1970’s.

  30. Linda's back says:

    Lamont with new smear tactics on Alex Salmond’s very worthwhile Ryder Cup trip to USA.

  31. Helena Brown says:

    I have no doubts that if they get no reaction from us then we should not be surprised if they decide to manufacture it. Mr Murray caused a stooshy over a wee sticker, let us hope they do not come up with worse.

  32. Training Day says:

    Bill Jamieson is a shrewd observer.

    Anyone else remember his appearance on Newsnight Scotland in which, tears nearly rolling down his cheeks, he described as ‘inspirational’ the offer of the then leader of Glasgow City Council – one Stephen Purcell – to provide extra free parking speces at Xmas?

    Memo to BT/MSM: free parking spaces at Xmas are the positive case for the Union. Bill thinks they’re inspirational.

  33. muttley79 says:

    The sad thing is that the No campaign/MSM know fine well that the SNP are not remotely like the Nazis. Any rational, intelligent person knows this to be the case. The fact that they keep on making the comparison means they are fully aware their campaign is a shambles. Lamont is going off like a rocket again at the moment by the way.

  34. Nick says:

    19th September 2014 Independent Scotland voted the most tolerant nation in the worlds history.

  35. Stevie says:

    The only nazis in this debate are those clinging vociferously in clutching desperation to post empire red, white and blue.

  36. Desimond says:

    “First we ignore them,
    then we laugh at them,
    then they come to fight us,
    and then we win.”
    – Wings 2014

  37. ecruden says:


  38. Macart says:

    You know I’ve never met Alistair Darling, Blair McDougall, most of the collective UK media or indeed this particularly this Mr Jamieson. Yet they seem fairly sure they know me well enough to determine my motivations for voting YES in September. I know I would remember meeting them, I’m only middle aged and don’t suffer from any memory disorder. So I can say hand on heart that these people are lying their faces off when they generalise the motivations of the entire independence movement.

    Kristallnacht – I mean really?

    Let me make it absolutely clear to any journo trundling through this thread. The only person allowed to make any kind of accurate moral judgement on what motivates me is Mrs Macart.

    I’ll get the tea in a minute dear. 🙂

  39. Angus says:

    Fear and smear

    Divide and conquor

    Unionist tactics since the year 1699

  40. The Fife Flier says:

    And of course dear old Aunty Beeb brought up the currency issue again this morning on BBC Breakfast, when the only comment made on the fairly extensive 86-page Weir Group report, published today, referred to the problems Scotland will face if it decides to go it alone currency-wise (the 4th of 5 options listed).

  41. muttley79 says:

    Ruth Davidson has just mentioned cybernats abusing people zzzzzzzzzz.

  42. The Rough Bounds says:

    I heard that windows around Arbroath Abbey, home of the Scottish Declaration of Independence in 1320 ad, have been smashed.

    That wouldn’t have been the work of the nasty Better Together and vote No campaigners would it?

    Surely not!

  43. creag an tuirc says:

    Aye, any better together people reading this. Any a yir pish and you’ll get the good old Yesga Kiss, I’ll stick the sticker oan ye. 🙂

  44. turnip_ghost says:


    I’ve missed this if there has been the surfacing of a picture but I did say yesterday that this might happen…Kinda wish I’d sat outside the place myself and waited to see what happens…

    Then again…CCTV will have recorded if it was a random member of the public or someone from the office placing/taking pictures of a Yes sticker…

    Freedom of information request?

  45. HandandShrimp says:

    The thing is that we have all been called names, ("Tractor" - Ed)s to Queenie, Britain, the UK – whatever, secessionists, Nazis, Stasi and God knows what else. There are deeply unpleasant blogs and Face Book pages like Alex Salmond is a Wanker where the vitriol is pretty much non-stop. I recall some chap on the Yes Scotland Face Book page saying we all deserved a bullet for our treachery.

    Not a word of any of this is reprinted by Roden and Co.

    The thing is I couldn’t care less. If one of these people call me a ("Tractor" - Ed) to the UK I think “so what”. I know I will not be able to tick No to the question Should Scotland be an independent country. I know where my loyalties lie and I am totally comfortable with that.

    As a joke on the Guardian I said BT stood for Bitter Traitor and made Roden’s Hall of Fame. 🙂 A badge I wear with pride. Of course Roden had to add a lie to the quote and put in a Twitter logo. I don’t have a Twitter account I said it on the Guardian. It is still there to be seen in full context on the ridiculously twee Chris Deerin article.

    The reason that Better Together types are so sensitive about name calling is that they are as guilty as sin. They know perfectly well that they are pissing on Scotland to save the Union. That is their choice. I mean that in a caring way obviously and there is more joy in Yes Scotland ranks over one repentant sinner than a 100 righteous men voting Yes. 😉

  46. Flower of Scotland says:

    I am a cybernat and I don’t abuse anyone Ruth Davidson! In fact if it wasn’t for Cybernats Scottish people would still believe all the tripe that has been regurgited over 300 yrs.

    On you go Nicola Sturgeon! As she is saying NO nuclear weapons in an Independent Scotland if SNP are the first Gov!

  47. hetty says:

    Cathy McRorie says:

    Thank goodness for on line news sharing, if we did not have that we would be apathetic or scared out of our wits. Its due to the truth getting through to everyone they’re resorting to making up stories & blatant lying. We have come this far we can do it.

    I just signed a petition to keep internet freedom and democratic, at risk once again.

    Here is why Avaaz are asking people to make their voices heard today: ” Right now EU Parliament is voting whether to save or kill the Internet as we know it. The result will be tight, but if we act fast now we can win the votes we need to tip the balance.

    The latest draft bill would allow Vodafone, Orange, and other Big Telecom operators to decide who can benefit from fast traffic — while slowing down, or even blocking, everyone else — and make millions out of it! Some political groups have put forward amendments to protect Internet freedom and ensure innovation — but experts say UK Liberal MEPs could break ranks and hand victory to the Big Telecoms”.

    It teeters on the edge and this is worrying, though it may already happen anyway.

  48. tartanfever says:

    This is becoming ridiculous. If the polls close even more or if Yes start to show a lead, then I have no doubt that the No camp and it’s friends in the media will stage manage an event to turn the voters against independence.

    Their arguments have failed, Project Fear is a busted flush – the Scottish electorate just aren’t buying the threats. They have nowhere left to go except to become more extreme. That’s very worrying.

    Bill ‘Reichstag Fire’ Jamieson will no doubt be first in line to help out any BT dirty tricks.

  49. Les says:

    I think that today Bill Jamieson will have had at least 5 times more readers than usual. Bye, bye Scotsman, won’t be long before the cludgie claims you

  50. rab_the_doubter says:

    I’ve been called a Nazi more times than I can count whilst commenting on BT FB pages. It’s all to the good though, I always take time to not be abusive, whilst injecting a bit of humour (not targeted at individuals) and I reckon that any undecideds viewing will get the message that when BT have no substance to their arguments all they can do is issue personal abuse.

    One thing that’s quite telling though, if you take a look at some of the abusers FB pages its quite clear where they get their Pro Union agenda from, and its not through any love of the UK, I think organised ball-games and music sessions involving wind instruments and long walks has more to do with it.

  51. Bryan Weir says:

    I am puzzled by the fact that so much emphasis (by both sides) has been put on Bill Munro’s letter rather than Barrhead Travel publicly disassociating themselves from it on their Facebook page? Surely the fact that they have done so tells its own story?

    “Many of you have today given your reaction to the personal opinion of Barrhead Travel’s part-time, non-executive director Bill Munro on Scottish independence.

    Whilst we respect Mr Munro’s views, we would like to clarify that this is not the opinion of the company. We believe that it’s for the people of Scotland to decide on the country’s future when they go to the polls in September.”

  52. setondene says:

    Someone’s probably already said this, but Bill Jamieson’s a Tory. So predictable attitude built into his writing for the Scotsman.

  53. call me dave says:

    @Linda’s back

    Lamont continues to demonstrate why she and the present labour party are not fit for purpose.

    It was a disgraceful misuse of an opportunity to ask pertinent questions regarding the SG policies and plans for an independent Scotland.

    But smears and accusations about a hotel bill…well, that’s their level personal abuse. Cant see that resonating with most of the voters.

    Mind you the cost of the hotel bill,although interesting, does not concern me too much. Why should our FM have to bunk up in a cheap hotel? I am delighted to see his good work on our behalf abroad drumming up business and raising our profile.

    Taxi for Lamont.

  54. Brian Powell says:

    Flower of Scotland.

    Interesting point about nuclear weapons. I listened to Jim Sillar’s debate with Galloway. Jim (very good speaker) was convinced a reformed Labour Party could be the Government in an Independent Scotland 2016.

    I wonder if they would campaign for that election on a platform of keeping Trident, as the Labour Party in Scotland voted to renew it? It would be an interesting question.

  55. fergie35 says:

    Who reads the Scotsman now anyway?
    It has turned into a LabServative propaganda paper, and Johnson Press cannot fathom out why it is in sharp decline!

  56. Ian Brotherhood says:

    What a performance by Lamont.

    You wouldn’t imagine she could get any worse, but she does, and seems to manage it every week.

    There are good Labour people in Scotland. Please, in the name of everything that’s decent and worth living for, get that loser and her buddies overboard and sort yourselves out.

  57. Michael says:

    The thing about online campaigners for indy is – as I’ve said before – that everyone in Scotland knows one. They’re folk’s brothers, mums, the guy that organises the weans’ fitbaw, the kindly home help who does a wee bit extra for her clients, the nice SNP councillor who plays the piano at the old people’s Xmas party. This demonisation stuff might work when it’s Romanian gypsies because almost no-one knows a Romanian gypsy but since almost everyone knows an indy campaigner it just doesn’t hold water.

  58. jacksloan2013 says:

    Sticks and Stones – Calling the internet campaigners, indeed the leader of the SNP, fascists and nazis disrespects those who suffered under, and fought against, that terrible force in the last century. Resorting to this smear campaign exposes the total lack of a positive alternative future offered by the Unionists.
    If we stay with these British nationalists we can expect years of austerity. Our decline in wages since 2010 is the forth worst in all 27 EU counties. We have one of the lowest state pensions, the third highest housing costs and just about the worst fuel poverty in Europe ahead of Estonia. Britain has the highest infant mortality of all western Europe and for adults, areas of Scotland have the shortest life expectancy.
    Under the Union the poor will get poorer. The state will privatize any remaining public services, it will foster the position as the the world’s financial haven, fourth largest military power and one of the largest manufacturer of military weapons and equipment.
    Yes. And names will never hurt me.

  59. Anne Lawrie says:

    Excellent article. Thank you. I am an old lady and have been tempted almost to the point of violence by their stupidity and those who believe everything they say. I am of an age where it was believed that anything on the BBC and in the press must be “correct”. I think it’s so important that we all get out on the streets and let everyone see we aren’t vindictive cybernats or tartan militia. The more people we can meet face to face, the better; especially those who are indifferent and don’t seek out information on the internet – they are the ones who will vote for the “status quo” i.e. “No”.

  60. Papadox says:

    Brian wilson’s brother in law.

    Did this guy not leave EBC Scotland after a dodgy reporting episode on the Scottish news, and end up working for Wier group? Just asking.

  61. Adam Davidson says:

    I am so feckin annoyed by the Scotsman article, I going to stick a sticker to a window of the Scotsman offices.

  62. DavidS says:

    The ‘othering’ of certain swathes of the pro-independence movement is a particularly unedifying sight.

  63. Taysideterrier says:

    Sorry this is OT but after i read about the weir groups intervention(scare story) I thought i would find out who ran the company same old faces, same old network of cronies.

  64. heedtracker says:

    The really pathetic thing about britnats, UKOK journos and this creep’s trouble making is the fact that they are trying to harm the “social union” virtually everyone else lives in, which is terrific irony.

  65. muttley79 says:

    You know, about 6 months ago all this Nazi stuff being thrown at independence supporters, the Yes campaign and the SNP, would have angered me greatly. My grandfather and great uncle both fought against the Nazis, in the RAF. However, at the present time to be called a Nazi, simply because you support full Scottish self government, is frankly pathetic, and shows that the No campaign have absolutely nothing to offer the people of Scotland. I say we leave them to their bile and hatred. They should not be abused, as this is exactly what they want us to do.

  66. Robert Kerr says:


    I was confused re Lamont’s performance.

    Then I remembered it was Thursday pm and FMQs.

    Oh dear!

  67. Papadox says:

    When the ordinary voter is branded a fascist or nazi because he has got the audacity to speak his mind against the establishment or elite, then the word democracy is brought into question.

    The internet acts as a medium that allows people of like opinions to co ordinate and share their views and opinions as never before out with the control of the MSM/EBC etc. they are loosing control and they don’t think that is very fair or democratic.

    THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE! Hence the establishment want their lies and propaganda pushed out via THEIR MSM/EBC propaganda machine. Any sign of the truth is not to be tolerated.

  68. Fireproofjim says:

    I couldn’t agree more with those who say we must maintain our cool and avoid rising to the bait when the wildest No campaign allegations are made.
    Then when we win in September there must be no gloating.
    As Churchill said ” In victory magnanimity”

  69. Another Union Dividend says:

    O/T Rev

    but Edinburgh Evening News giving prominence to Ian Murray calling the police about the disgraceful vandalism to his office and having a go at Wings.

    Murray / trainee journalist confusing stickers with flyers and Yes with SNP but in the words of Lord Foulkes they are doing it deliberately.

  70. John grant says:

    Leafleting last Saturday in Hamilton a lovely gentleman hoped after a no vote people like myself will be stoned to death.

  71. Kev says:

    They are getting so desperate I wouldn’t put it past them doin a wee Reichstag of their own – perhaps covering the Glasgow Council building with nasty, abusive, intimidating Yes stickers?

  72. Fudgefase says:

    Ah yes, every time I post a link or an image supporting “yes” on my Facebook page, I never tire of the insults and queries as to my intelligence that come flooding in. Such a hoot.

  73. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

    heedtracker @ 11.34: ‘…the last one is going to hurt the most’.
    I’m ashamed to say that Alba will not be the ‘last one’, because that dubious honour will go to us here in CYMRU/Wales – on the whole, we’re such a servile lot, apart from the significant ‘inward migration’ 😉 over the decades. Gibraltar and the Malvinas will be independent before we finally pull up our socks and pull the wool from over our eyes!

  74. HandandShrimp says:

    Poor Lamont, all she seems to be able to do is lie and smear. She doesn’t have a sensible political gene in her body. She just isn’t predisposed to politics.


  75. Seasick Dave says:

    Tayside Terrier

    I was delighted to see Lord Robertson of Port Ellen
    KT, GCMG, HonFRSE, PC on the board of directors/

    A member of Her Majesty’s Privy Council, he is Chairman of the Ditchley Foundation and of the Commission on Global Road Safety. He is honorary Professor of Politics at Stirling University, an honorary Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, an Elder Brother of the Corporation of Trinity House and is Chancellor of the Order of St Michael and St George.

    I can’t imagine that he would have had anything to do with Weir’s pronouncements on independence.

  76. Tamson says:

    Actually Tim, the last nation to be freed fron that wretched gentlemen’s club on the Thames will be England. Ordinary English folk.

    And when that happens, it will not be pretty.

  77. Votadini Jeannie says:


    I have been wondering how he, Bill Munro, was able to access the names and addresses of the employees if he is an ex-officio member of the board of Barrhead Travel. What of the Data Protection laws? Perhaps a Winger with more knowledge than I can answer this.

    This is indeed a breach of the law as Principle 1 of the D.P.A. has been infringed. Principle 1 states that personal data which is collected can only be used for its original stated purpose. Any unexpected or unjustified use of personal data is against the law as decreed by the Data Protection Act (1994).

    The responsible party however is not Bill Munro but Barrhead Travel. Despite their comments distancing themselves from his actions, they are the Data Controller, the party which controls and is responsible for their staff’s personal data. It is their duty to ensure it is only accessible by approved persons and only used in a responsible and legally-compliant manner. They have clearly not done this, so it is actually Barrhed Travel who have broken the law here, and not Mr. Munro.

  78. john allan says:

    I think our next move is stickers on cars and posters in windows, some no;s are not yet convinced because there is no visual support even thought i think we are winning easy. we have to start to show it. making your own yes sign f0oor your house or car window cost nothing, but means the world to us canvassers.

  79. Brian Powell says:

    The No people twist themselves into knots.

    the arguments are:
    1) The Yes supporter numbers are very few and dwindling all the time.
    2) There is only Alex Salmond and Nicoloa Sturgeon, both hated.
    3) All Yes supporters sit in their bedrooms typing, but still put stickers on windows and are going out to carry out a Krystalnacht. Not sure if that means we are going to carry out a pogrom on the Jewish community or the Caledons, whoever they are.

    I guess we would need to go out in our ever dwindling numbers, overcome the police force and the army, knock on every door in the land, asking, “Are you a Jewish person or even a Caledon”(?), then hit them with a mouse from the computer and shout abuse at them.

  80. bookie from hell says:

    was this bill jamieson article in print scotsman?

    article seems to be pulled from Scotsman website on-line

  81. Murray McCallum says:

    The ‘No’ campaign will stop and nothing to smear and damage the online community. This is what they cannot subjugate. They are control freaks and they are panicking.

    Rebutting their smears through facts and humour demonstrates that these commentators and politicians cannot be trusted. They are powerless, floundering oafs.

    The more outrageous the claims, the more pompous they are perceived and the less people will trust them.

  82. Suzanne Bosworth says:

    I agree with other posters here. You could bet your grannie and win her back plus six more on the likelihood of there being some desperate attempts to besmirch the Yes campaign. It’s not as if we haven’t seen that kind of tactic before, whether it’s undercover police or MI5 or paid bully boy infiltrations of legitimate campaigns, and we know that’s going to be part of their “love injection”.

    The last thing BT and Westminster want is for Yes voters to ignore them and their purple prose. Kristallnacht? Nazis? Oh please. It’s said that you project onto others what your see in yourself; increasingly catastrophic rhetoric only goes to underpin what we all know: that BT and Westminster are losing the plot, the argument and the battle.

    We grass roots people know the truth. We’re the ones who see the votes for Yes rise after every single town hall meeting, every doorstep canvassing trip, every time we strike up a conversation with someone at the bus stop and give people the opportunity to access the truth of what a Yes vote means. We have the finest bloggers in the land doing what the MSM is not doing: sharing information, promoting discussion, making the facts accessible to everyone. We have Twitter, the perfect platform for disseminating links to huge resources of background material. And we have the self-belief, drive, courage and vision to run our country in a way that reflects the basic principles of a Scottish society – fairness, justice and equality.

    Scotland has had enough of being badgered, bullied and pushed around. We have a voice, and we’re using it.

  83. Desimond says:

    @John Grant

    Thats sad but are you sure the guy wasnt just a Hash dealer?

  84. Gillie says:

    “Caledonian Kristallnacht” is both anti-Scottish and anti-Semitic.

    You cannot compare the rough and tumble of political campaigning in Scotland to the murder and deportation of thousands of German Jews by the Nazis.

    Scottish Council of Jewish Communities: Antisemitic Incident Report Form

    This needs to be reported.

  85. Seasick Dave says:

    Not had time to go through this with a fine tooth comb, not only because I don’t own one but because I don’t have the time at the moment.

    This is from the Ditchley Foundation on which Lord Robertson is a member.

    While in the past the traditional media and politicians had ‘moderated’ or ‘mediated’ information and discourse, both would now reach people in increasingly direct ways, for better or for worse.

    People would want different leaders, or perhaps even no leaders in the current sense at all, since they wanted to control their lives themselves. Citizens had a right to more and better information on the issues which were important to their lives, and on how decisions affecting them were taken, and the social media provided excellent tools to ensure this. Secrecy was an enemy of democracy. Power would increasingly come from sharing knowledge, not just possessing it.

    Governments might be fearful of all this, and some were already reacting by trying to restrict the new media. But this would prove a vain effort. The internet was an opportunity not only to circulate information much more widely and efficiently but also to hold governments to account in much more effective ways, and to protect individuals’ rights.

  86. john allan says:

    The no camp have a point if we do not start showing that we are there then people may believe them. lets start asking yes supporters to start showing it everywhere.lets show the no campaign they are wrong

  87. Bigbricks says:

    Mr Jamieson is either lamentably ignorant of history (which is lazy journalism, as any competent journalist will check facts relevant to a story before publication) or trying to be deliberately misleading (and perhaps inflammatory). Apart from anything else, he seems to view any disagreement, however measured, with a pro-UK view, as an “attack”. Never criticism, never disagreement, always “attacks”.

    However, to address the most offensive point of Mr Jamieson’s article, Kristallnacht was an organised (actually very highly organised by the Nazi party) pogrom. There was nothing spontaneous about it. Is Mr Jamieson seriously comparing either pro-independence voters or any political party to the Nazi party? Or is his intention simply to send out the message that most pro-independence internet users are rabid “cybernats”? He seems to have missed the point that an employer “recommending” which way his staff should vote is hardly democratic, aside from the obvious inaccuracies or mistruths in Mr Munro’s ill-considered email. Look at it from the reverse point of view. If one of Mr Munro’s employees had fired off a global email recommending everyone in the company to vote YES, would s/he still have a job?

    Come on Mr Jamieson, this is journalism which would be ripped to shreds by any lecturer on any taught course in the UK. It’s badly written, ill thought out, obviously partial, full of assertions with no supporting evidence, and an obvious attempt to stir antagonism. The Scotsman once stood for reporting of the highest order. On this evidence, most amateur bloggers are capable of considerably better. I assume that posts like mine will also be considered to be abusive rants. They’re not, Mr Jamieson – this is, I hope, a well argued criticism of your article. It’s a pity that you can’t manage the same.

  88. heedtracker says:

    Biting anti Holyrood satire here from Jamieson, googled and his Scot Buzz blog came up and its all a bit sad really. Last time I saw this dude was on BBC ScotlandNewsnight with him and Gordon Brewer trying to demolish Labour for Independence. Nice of the BBC to give up a whole newsnight to attack anything democratic in Scotland. And so the Jamieson vote no dreariness begins

    “and A stunning new skyline addition is being planned for the Scottish Parliament. Already nicknamed the ‘MAcEYE,’ it is a state-of-the-art facility designed to house the Parliament’s surveillance data and information storage of life in contemporary Scotland.

    The telescopic eye, with a range of 400 miles in all directions, rotates 24 hours a day to provide a complete unbroken scan across the country.

    The MAcEYE is due to be unveiled this morning by First Minister Alex Salmond at a prestige ceremony in Holyrood.

    A cluster of more than 1,000 miniature digital cameras hidden inside the MAcEYE will reach into every home and office to help MSPs provide live, comprehensive up-to-the-minute data for better informed legislative innovations in the period ahead. From city centres to the remotest highlands, all Scotland will be “data captured”!

    The design was declared the outright winner out of more than 90 submissions to a panel of independent experts including architects, urban planners, heritage campaigners, and senior figures from Creative Scotland, Historic Scotland, Scottish Enterprise and the Cockburn Society.

    All agreed this was a bold, imaginative and eye-catching addition to Edinburgh’s Hanseatic sky-line.

    The MAcEYE will be powered by micro wind turbines and can be extended to a height of 250ft. to obtain detailed surveillance of Glasgow.

    No figure has been given as to cost, but informal estimates range up to £100 million. “The money’s not the thing”, said a Scottish government spokesperson. “The cost will soon be defrayed by a huge surge in tourist visits

    “Today is a great occasion for celebration of Scottish design, innovation and technology. Truly, the Scottish Parliament can now be fairly called ‘far-sighted’!”

  89. Dcanmore says:

    The Weir Group directors, yup the impartial Lord Robertson of Nuk’em High and a bunch of financiers from the City, want a NO vote … who wuddathunkit!

  90. CameronB says:

    The media’s main role in the independence debate is that of the school bully.

    Perhaps somebody should raise a bit of a racket over this sort of affair. 🙂

    So don’t do what it wants. Don’t smash any windows. Don’t punch anyone. Just bite your lip, carry on working, and keep doing what we’re doing, because that’s the thing that’s scaring the living hell out of them.

    Perhaps there should be some sort of imperial comeuppance for such imperial stooges? 🙂

  91. Papadox says:

    Remember the dodgy dossier re Iraq and the ubiquitous BRITISH INTELLIGENCE SERVICES and a certain “gentlman ” John Scarlet in that whole sordid episode. He was promoted I believe after that “successful” operation! There was left a bad smell which still persists.

    Well the establishment have some very disturbed people in their gang with some very nasty traits and no conscience, and if that ain’t brutal enough they can get some new ideas from the real crazies in the good ole US of A. These spooks will perform on command of the “establishment”.

    Scotland is threatening their power and wealth, that will be defended to the death. The Empire of corruption, lies and deceit will not die quietly, I fear. I hope I am wrong!

    Wonder where the MAFIA got its ideas from?

  92. Mary Bruce says:

    The Scotsman online version is a really, really unpleasant place to spend the time, I find it difficult to stay there for more than thirty seconds at a time.

    There can be no doubt that the repulsive, spiteful SLab and UKIP commentators BTL are driving reasonable readers away with their vitriol. No rational thinking person can enjoy the bile and hatred.

    Presumably the editors and proprietors share the same opinions of the commentators otherwise they would realise how off-putting it is to most people.

  93. Mosstrooper says:

    Thank you Votadini.

    Now, is there anyone out there who would be able to enquire of the relevant authority if a law has been broken (pace Votadini) and to see what punitive measures can be employed.

    Major possible embarrassment for Barrhead Travel and more positive for Yes.

    They don’t like it up them you know!

  94. HandandShrimp says:

    The Better Together lot have become an odd mixture of lazy and desperate. I take no offence at the Kristallnacht comment because it is patently ridiculous hyperbole. However, I can see why anyone who endured the Holocaust would find the cheapening of such an event to the level of a schoolboy insult deeply offensive.

    That is between Jamieson’s conscience and those who might well take offence to sort out.

  95. The Rough Bounds says:

    What would be the point in having a ‘Caledonian Kristallnacht’? If we broke all the windows we wouldn’t have any windows to put our vandal stickers on.

  96. Memphisto says:

    Well it isnt the only law Barrhead Travel have breached. I know that they have been recently reported to MailChimp by someone I know for sending bulk emails containing hidden unsubscribe links. It is a breach of MailChimp’s terms and conditions because all legitimate emails need to contain visible unsubscribe links. I have seen the email myself and it was deliberately hidden from view.

  97. The Rough Bounds says:

    @John Grant. 1.13pm.

    John, if we vote Yes then I will certainly be getting stoned.

  98. callum says:

    O/T – that;’s the mobile roaming scare story officially debunked with the EU parliament forbidding roaming charges post Dec 15 2015

  99. Alfresco Dent says:

    As ever, that’s the nail hit firmly on the head. We must not rise to the bait, however valid we may reason it.

    “Work as if you live in the early days of a better Nation”.

  100. bunter says:

    It could be an idea to use this powerful forum to highlight examples of the real nasty stuff from the other side. Not as if there is a shortage of them!

  101. Bigdrone says:

    But can we still slap an odd sticker on Braehead Travel and Ian Murray’s doors – the prelude to a ‘Caithnesglassnacht?’ Personall I blame the squirrels. Just an aside – just watched FMQ’s on BBC 2 Scotland and I’m so glad Nicki and wee Eck are on my side!

  102. kalmar says:

    From the BBC’s “Freedom 2014” season.

  103. MochaChoca says:

    BTL comment from the Scotsman article (start off sounding quite reasonable as well):

    I have never voted for any political party in my life such was my disappointment of all political parties. I am closer to mid-century years old.

    Salmond, his Nationalism and his Cybernat support are the only party to ever provide me the motivation to vote. Not for Nationalist Seperatism; that ill of underhand hatred, but for the fact that I have been defined by Nationalists in the Bush-esque period of – “if you don’t believe us your not Scottish”.

    That’s fine. Because I would, as a Scot with a vote, rather see Scotland in civil war than see it separated from the UK stolen by a minority inbred insular parochial Nationalism.

    As a Scot with over 22 years in the Army – I fancy my, and my colleagues, chances of killing off the disease of the hate that is the SNP.”

  104. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Jamieson is an earsehole!

    I’m sorry Stu but folk like this really make my blood boil.

    A line has been crossed here between fair rebuttal and menacing nastiness. More of this and we could be on the way towards a Caledonian Kristallnacht.”

    What sort of infantile mentality, and yes I do believe it is infantile, would dare to accuse people of supporting the YES campaign as wanting to start another Kristallnacht! Check out your history Jamieson, if you are in fact capable of such actions. I think you’ll find Kristallnacht was carried out by the Nazis against the JEWS ya Muppet! What we have here now is an extremely bitter Better Together supporter openly accusing the YES campaign supporters of going on a rampage against the JEWISH community in Scotland! Are you REALLY so thick and stupid as to suggest that YES supporters are anti Jewish, cause if you are I suggest you RESIGN from your place of work immediately!

    I have been a supporter of Scottish independence for as long as I can remember Jamieson and NOTHING you ever write will change my views. In fact the MORE lies you and your cohorts like Cochrane write then the even harder set I become in my attitude towards voting YES.

    “Bill Munro, the head of Barrhead Travel, one of our most successful Scottish companies, was subjected to a volley of threats and abuse after he advised staff in a letter to vote No.

    Oh he was subjected to threats and abuse was he, where’s your proof Jamieson or is this just yet another pathetic round of Jamieson lies AGAIN! Personally I suspect we are talking about Jamieson lies again but no doubt if I’m wrong Jamieson will put up his *ahem* evidence for all to see.

    I have had enough of this earsehole. On a lighter side I hear that the police have caught the *ahem* vandal who vandalised Ian Murray’s constituency office.

  105. a Supporter says:

    C’mon you lot stop getting your knickers in a twist. Stu has debunked and ridiculed Jamieson admirably now go forth and spread the word widely about Jamieson’s lack of intellect, wit, morality or whatever .

    We are in the middle of a Referendum debate for Independence and you cannot expect it to be ‘nice’. Passions are bound to be high because YES and NO supporters feel strongly about what they want the rsult to be. As far as I’m concerned, within reason the ends justify the means, and I have no qualms about spinning anything I write in favour of a YES vote and will even tell the occasional little lie to help out. I will accuse BnpT supporters of being stupid, lacking commonsense, being anti-Scottish, lying and whatever else and I fully expect that to be reciprocated.

    Politicians are well aware that it is all a big game and they will say and do anything to help them win a vote whether for a parliament,Independence or a local council election. It is no good railing against the NO people because it started out with the usually successful classical campaign strategy against change, ie to disparage everything the changers say and do to instill fear of the unknown into the breasts of voters. Unfortunately for the NO campaign they have overdone the fear, smear, sneer claims and its campaign has backfired on them.

  106. Papadox says:

    @john grant 1:13 pm

    A very sick old gentlman who obviously hates Scotland and anything to do with it. Doesn’t care who gets hurt so long as it is Scotland. Pathetic really, obviously the result of brain washing by the imperial force.

  107. Johnney come lately says:

    The MSM and the thugs they employ as journalists and commentators are an absolute disgrace.
    After 2007 when the people of Scotland decided to “put their heads in the noose” and elect an untried Scottish government against all of the hysterics, propaganda, lies, distortions, hand wringing and howling from the assorted media hacks, was the day the MSM in Scotland stood accused and were found guilty of being at the very center of the abusive system they were meant to hold to account.
    Since 2007 until around 2011 the MSM in Scotland and Britain as a whole have simply been indulging in self harm. From the SG’s majority victory until before xmas 2014 they have taken leave of their collective senses and have been trashing their own profession. Since the beginning of 2014 we have seen the MSM in Scotland and Britain debase themselves and their profession to a level which defies belief.
    The MSM in Scotland terrified because they are being found out and exposed. They are being outmaneuvered by alternative media, outgunned and outnumbered by citizen journalists on the ground and are having their distortions exposed and held up to public scrutiny.
    Gone are the days of unbridled power, the power to attack and destroy people without mercy at a whim. People aren’t being fooled by this crap. It’s just too obvious. The only people left with any faith in the MSM in Scotland are the gullible, the uninterested and people who do not want to hear the truth. The MSM in Scotland is now acting in the same manner as the establishment and what we are seeing is nothing less than desperation and fear. Keep up the good work folks!

  108. bald eagle says:

    brian powel@1:46pm

    brian please dont hurt the moose no the bloody moose please Ibeg you

  109. Brian Fleming says:

    I’ve long been of the view the Scottish Government should call in observers from the OSCE. But I feel I’m crying into the wind from the other side of the North Sea. A direct appeal was met with a bland assurance that the Edinburgh Agreement ensured a free and fair contest. Is there nothing anyone in Scotland can do to encourage them to act before it’s too late. All the signs of an impending tragedy are there for all to see. Just think what these people did to Ireland, and there’s more at stake for them in Scotland. I was shocked last autumn by the rabid anti-Indepence attitude of an erstwhile friend in Glasgow. It’s like the BT mob are projecting their own dark side onto YES. I fear they will eventually use their own lurid fantasies to justify dreadful actions that can only result in tragedy all round. I hope I’m wrong.

  110. heedtracker says:

    You’d need a heart of stone not to larf or so much for future PM Milliband. How far right can Englandshire get though?

  111. Grouse Beater says:

    Considering all the decades the Scotsman has failed to alert its readers to the profound imbalance in democracy between Scotland and the rest of the Union, or how it has affected adversely and livelihoods lives down the years, Jamieson has got some cheek.

    It was a quiet weekend.

    He had to find subject matter for his column. He found a modest story and elevated into a drama.

  112. Viking Girl says:

    I’m afraid all this slandering is just a sign of the No folk’s desperation. They have tried everything to dissuade us from retreiving our freedom: scares, threats and down right lies. Now they’re scraping the barrel, comparing the desire for independence to Nazism. My dad fought the Nazis and he wanted our freedom. As I said, it’s slander to suggest we’re Nazis when we actually fought them.

  113. Papadox says:

    @mochachoca 2:38 pm

    As I said in a previous thread “the establishment has some very disturbed people working for it”
    Enough said.

  114. Les Wilson says:

    What none of us can forget, our day of revenge for ALL of this, comes on the 18th of September. Once done, we will then say what we really want to say to those who have lied, cheated, manipulated data, used scare tactics etc etc!

    I know I will, but for now I will simmer quietly and wait for they day when they are exposed for what they are. It is not too far away.

  115. Ewan MacKenzie says:

    “cloth-witted, tin-eared idiot”


  116. Dan Huil says:

    Sometimes I think extremist unionists would actually like to see violence break out. Would they contemplate instigating it?

  117. cadgers says:

    ‘we urge readers NOT to lamp Bill Jamieson ‘ could we at least ‘sticker’ him?…Please

  118. Jimsie says:

    It is at least some consolation that these unionist newspapers are in terminal decline. Can”t come quick enough for me.

  119. Jimsie says:

    Dan Huil

    Most certainly. There is one in jail already for threatening violence.

  120. heedtracker says: Uh oh! soaraway Sun’s after the cybernats now. Why does the Sun freak show think people sit in front of their laptop with wearing a balaclava anyway. I sometimes wear my old US Marines helmet for Halo night. Got mine from the military dealer at the Baras.

  121. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Just for some light relief I’ve watched FMQ’s. I have one question for Johann Lamont, ‘why do you even bother getting out of bed on a Thursday?’

    I can not believe that Labour M.S.P,.’s are entirely happy, nae jubilant, at the weekly performance of Lamont. To call her performances lamentable would be to actually give her praise where there is undoubtedly none due.

    One thing I did learn today though was that cybernats are bitter old men. I learnt this because that well known zoologist Ruth Davidson said it was so. Who am I to argue with such high level of knowledge concerning the genetical make up of cybernats. I have just one wee question for Ruth. ‘What do you call us women who participate with these bitter old men, are we cybernatettes, cabernatettes, bedroomnatettes,sidewalknatettes,WHAT are we? We want to know!’ 😛

  122. CameronB says:

    At least were not wearing the same CLOWN SHOES as the MSM. 🙂

  123. Will Podmore says:

    So, not-Rev Stuart, calling contributions ‘demented’, ‘ridiculous lies’, ‘hysterical’, ‘wildly irresponsible’ by a ‘cloth-witted, tin-eared idiot honking such drivel’
    is the way to calm the debate?

  124. CameronB says:

    Will Podmore
    I think clarity and focus are of course essential, but when your voice is being drowned out, might it not be appropriate to shout?

  125. jacksloan2013 says:

    As I said earlier it is a disgrace that the unionists have slandered Yes supporters in this disgraceful way.

    I also pointed out that this is because they have very, very little to offer if we stay on as part of the UK.

    Rather than admit to this what they are now doing is… “Oh look a Nazi!”

  126. cynicalHighlander says:

    Lamonts Law.

    A law stating that the permeability of steel, at any flux density, is proportional to the difference between that flux density and the saturation value,

  127. Robert Peffers says:

    See me! Ah’m ain o yon Cyber warriors. Wan richt wee Cybernat, so Ah am. Trouble is yon nice Mr Salmond seems tae hae loast ma email address kis Ah never get ony direct instructions frae him fir whit Ah sud post oan-line.
    Onyhoo, this is, “The Cybernat Song”,. On YouTube for anyone who has not already downloaded it. This link also has the printed lyrics attached.

  128. Grouse Beater says:

    The entire unionism forever argument is based on the people of Scotland choosing the irrational choice.

    Everything the opposition has stated, warned, enumerated, demanded, is aimed at us forgetting facts and history and choosing the illogical and foolish decision.

    It is the same as advertising that begins, “Seeing blood when you brush your teeth? This could be a sign of gum infection…”

    The encouragement is to leave your good sense and common sense behind and buy their product even when it is no better, or worse than the others, or plainly not needed.

  129. Dunphail says:

    I would like to know why Jamieson’s devoted service to the Empire has not been properly recognised. Why is he not been awarded at the very least a CBE like the other stellar propagandist Iain McMillan. This latest effort and the cretinous “Caledonian Kristallnacht” quip is surely deserving of a knighthood.

  130. BillyBigbaws says:

    Bill Jamieson could almost make you forget that every single violent far-right and neo-Nazi group in Britain is (and always has been) explicitly and vocally unionist. The British Fascisti, the British Union of Fascists, the League of Empire Loyalists, the British Movement, the National Front, the British National Party, Traditional Britain Group, etc, etc. From the early Twentieth-century heyday of fascism right up till the present day, they have all been very, very proud of their unionism, with nary a Scots or Welsh Nat amongst them.

    Why is that?

  131. Jimsie says:

    Robert Peffers

    Enjoyed the wee song Robert. Congratulations on a fine piece of writing which you posted on the last thread. I share your thoughts re history as taught in Scottish schools.

    I had posted a similar piece previously debunking the Shakespeare myth and the plagiarist Charles Darwin.

    I am sure in an independent Scotland our schoolchildren will be taught history without the unionist propaganda.

  132. CameronB says:

    Grouse Beater
    I think Unilever make whitewash as well as toothpaste. Another important brick in the corporate-imperialist world, IMO. Another Anglo-Dutch operator you see, who has benefited from the legacy of leading global status as Maritime power, during the rise of Free Trade and monopoly practice.

    But then, weren’t feudal manors local monopolies?

  133. Blair paterson says:

    I am at a loss to understand why the snp and the yes campaign keep putting up with this rubbish take them to court sue them for slander and lying claim costs and damages for goodness sake do something they are only able to do and say these things because they are allowed to with up till now no comeback if the snp or the yes campaign will not do it can we not crowd fund it will someone please do something for goodness sake .these people are being given a free run action not words by that I mean legal action Vote yes

  134. Taranaich says:

    Great post from Robert Peffers, always love to see historical posts!

    @HandandShrimp: The thing is that we have all been called names, ("Tractor" - Ed)s to Queenie, Britain, the UK – whatever, secessionists, Nazis, Stasi and God knows what else. There are deeply unpleasant blogs and Face Book pages like Alex Salmond is a Wanker where the vitriol is pretty much non-stop. I recall some chap on the Yes Scotland Face Book page saying we all deserved a bullet for our treachery.

    Oh, they will. We’re less than six months into the campaign, and they’ve called us everything under the sun (while still having the brass neck to bleat when *they* get called ("Tractor" - Ed)s, ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s and whatnot). And like Muttley79, I think 6 months ago this would’ve gotten to me.

    But it doesn’t, because all you have to do is a wee comparison.

    On the side of Yes we have the SNP, Scottish Greens, SSP, Radical Independence Collective, Labour/Lib Dems for Indy, Wealthy Nation, Business for Scotland, National Collective, the Common Weal, and the Lion Rampant’s share of artists, musicians and authors, Scots and non-Scots.

    On the side of No we have Labour, the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, Ukip, the BNP, the National Front, the EDL and its Scottish branch, the Orange Lodge, multinational business leaders who also warned against devolution in 1979 and 1997, and an oil baron who is linked to a Serbian warlord.

    Case. Closed.

    @tartanfever: This is becoming ridiculous. If the polls close even more or if Yes start to show a lead, then I have no doubt that the No camp and it’s friends in the media will stage manage an event to turn the voters against independence.

    Perhaps the reason so many of them fear a Caledonian Kristallnacht is the same reason some people fear the EU would kick indy Scots out: because they genuinely think we would do to them what they would – and have – done to us, given half the chance. That’s why they’re so upset when they get called ("Tractor" - Ed)s – because that’s what independence supporters have been called for generations.

    Can you see an SNP government rolling out tanks on the streets of one of our cities if there was a pro-Union rally? Can you imagine people “disappearing” or dying in mysterious circumstances for daring to support the union? Can you visualise pro-union politicians being slandered and marginalised to remotely the extent we’ve seen thrown at Alex Salmond, much less intimidated and threats made against their lives?

    I sure can’t. On the other hand, I can remember when Conservative governments have rolled in the military to quash anything that challenged the state. I can remember Willie MacRae. I can remember what was said about Arthur MacDonald and Billy Wolfe, and what continues to be said about Alex Salmond.

    That’s what this boils down to: they’re afraid an independent Scotland would treat Unionists the way they’ve treated Nationalists. It doesn’t occur to them that we are not like them. That’s the point of independence: we don’t have to do things like Westminster.

    @Bryan Weir: I am puzzled by the fact that so much emphasis (by both sides) has been put on Bill Munro’s letter rather than Barrhead Travel publicly disassociating themselves from it on their Facebook page? Surely the fact that they have done so tells its own story?

    No, I’ve seen a few papers highlighting this – but predictably, they see it as an example of Cybernat Bullies “triumphing” in bullying those poor wee businessmen into silence for having the courage to speak up for the UK. The Daily Mail even said ALL Munro had done was voice his support for the union – nothing about the letter or its contents. Apparently just speaking out in favour of the union is somehow something that requires bravery on the part of businesses! Ye cannae mak it up.

  135. Thistle says:


    Live stream at 7:30pm from Renfrew Town Hall

    Jim Sillars, Jeane Freeman & Ivan McKee

  136. Grouse Beater says:

    If I might add a little to the knowledge of 1707:

    Conventional wisdom claims the Darien Scheme left Scotland bankrupt.

    It was not.

    The collapse of the scheme, however, removed somewhere under a third of the currency from circulation. The counter claim that it was a third not only can be refuted by the financial records, but also flatly dismisses the pernicious lie Scotland was bankrupt.

    How could it be?

    Here’s more proof Scotland was solvent: England offered its loan in two ways: half in debentures, half in cash.

    The debentures proved to be worthless. The English goverment – it was aggressively territorial, at war with France and bullying Spain – raised the taxes in Scotland to pay for the half in cash.


    You can argue Scotland paid for the sale of its own country, such was the outrageous deal done to keep the Darien investors in the manner to which they were accustomed.

    Selling you own country has to be the ultimate cringe.

  137. Alex says:

    Is just me or has the attacks on the Cybernats picked up a gear this week.

  138. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Taranaich

    Bloody hell man; what eloquence.

    Game, Set and Match but, they are selectively deaf and are incapable of understanding. So let us gerritintae’em, con gusto.

  139. Justin Kenrick says:

    Excellently put Taranaich:

    “That’s what this boils down to: they’re afraid an independent Scotland would treat Unionists the way they’ve treated Nationalists. It doesn’t occur to them that we are not like them. That’s the point of independence: we don’t have to do things like Westminster.”

  140. Arbroath 1320 says:

    This is for those folks who do not bwelieve there is a positive case for independence. 😛

  141. CameronB says:

    Arbroath 1320
    One WEE niggle. I would have thought YES Scotland might have been at the top. Oops…hope that doesn’t hurt. 🙂

  142. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I’m not going to argue about the order in which things appear Cameron. I just think that the car looks great. Alternatively you could go for one of these looks. 😛

  143. proudscot says:

    Bill Jamieson? Sad old Tory writing in the mistitled Scotsman. Do we really expect balanced comment from such as him on the subject of Scotland’s independence?

    Re Lamont’s latest dire performance on today’s FMQs. Nicola filleted her neatly with her final salvo, saying she was not even fit to be leader of the opposition! Ouch!

  144. CameronB says:

    Arbroath 1320
    Sorry if you thought I was rubbishing, I just think detail is important. You know, the WEE THINGS. I suppose a list is a list at the end of the day though.

    The second YES car should get the job done. 🙂

    P.S. I never fancied driving so have never bothered learning. How much weirder could a cybernat get? I don’t eat meat either. 🙂

  145. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    Alex says:
    Is just me or has the attacks on the Cybernats picked up a gear this week?

    I think it is probably a combination of factors.

    Maybe the BT spin-cycle of limited self-defeating drums-to-beat has come round to the Cybernats slot again.

    Also, BT will have found the Wings SPT and Metro pushes very scary, and will be trying to clumsily counter this with Cybernat-smearing.

    As the NO campaign goes into meltdown while the YES insurgency rises like a Tsunami, with the correct information getting to more and more people, it looks increasingly important to BT to bad-mouth the sources they can’t control.

    It is however ultimately all shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-stuff from BT.

    Anti-Cybernat media declarations just bump up the kudos of the Cybernats, get more Cyber-lurkers to get angry and start Cybernattin’ themselves, and make curious undecideds start Googling Cybernat.

    So, don’t get mad, get even (on 18th September).

    Everybody just keep on Cybernattin’ …

    – The good information is

  146. Arbroath 1320 says:

    That’s all right Cameron I suspected that you weren’t rubbishing anything. 🙂

    I agree about the second car, it kind of resembles our own Jeep except we don’t have the ‘Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands’ and #yescar stickers on board…YET! 😛

    Each to their own Cameron about driving stc we won’t hold it against you. 😛

  147. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I see Duggie Dug over on Twitter has initiated the regulatory “I’m Spar-stick-us” over this affair at Ian Murray’s office. 😛

  148. Juteman says:

    Have a look at the windows of Croick Church for real graffiti.

  149. msean says:

    o/t I see the hotel thing came up at FMQs,got to say that you won’t get a meeting with the types that can deliver hundreds of jobs if you don’t take rooms at upmarket hotels.The FM wouldn’t even get into their outer office otherwise.It’s about promoting our home nation.

  150. call me dave says:

    Just heard a BBC summary of FMQ’s on News Drive Radio. Anyone who had not witnessed the actual event at noon would have no idea of what really happened and how awful the’debater of the year’ actually performed.

    Cut and paste techniques interspersed with BBC comments can go a great deal to salvage the sorry arses of the unionist opposition. Good old Auntie.


    Excellent post.

  151. Gary says:

    This is a brilliant article and also well-timed in that it’s something I’ve been getting more and more annoyed about in recent days. The bit about bullying is spot on.

    Even if there is the odd loon who goes overboard online, it’s also very understandable for the most part. Between the issues raised in this article and the previous one about the historic flows of money out of Scotland, people are angry and rightly so. You simply can’t treat a country the way people are treating Scotland and not expect some kind of backlash…in fact, I’m pretty sure a few words on the internet and stickers on windows would be considered downright tame in many other countries in the face of such provocation! Not that I’m for a minute suggesting that’s the correct way, but the Yes camp has been admirably restrained and indefatiguable under the weight of the attacks it sustains and should be commended for that.

  152. Peter says:

    Off topically.
    Interesting. B Mcliar has a doppleganger who seems to be a hobo and friends with the Thumb!!!

  153. Dcanmore says:

    With The Sun now wading into the whole Cybernat issue and the media generally ignoring the atrocious everyday bile and nastiness from commentaries on their own newspaper webpages particularly from BNP and UKIP supporters, it seems to me it’s a ramping up of making Alex Salmond look like an Oswald Mosley-type figure with the Cybernats as his dedicated acolytes.

    How does Stickergate, Bill Munro’s bullying and Nigel ‘Bawbag’ compare to an 80-year-old YES campaigner being attacked in the street and having his arm broken because of his belief in seeing his country do better with independence while still alive to witness a monumental change that will benefit his grandchildren?

    There is some serious fucked up shit in this country where a cabal of politicians, journalists, businessmen and broadcasters would triumph and gloat over the denial of democracy, debate and freedom of speech to at least 40% of the population because it is a threat to their cosy hegemony.

    The only reason for this is down to purely survival, the fear of MPs losing their jobs and gravy train, journalists redundant in the media, businesses and individuals having to deal with a more accountable and just Holyrood instead of a corrupt ‘any price’ Westminster. They will severely damage Scotland to destroy the independence movement, Alex Salmond and the SNP. How far will they go, unbelievably, still remains to be seen. But one thing we can do is to stop buying newspapers, zero, nothing, not one. People who read this website in their tens of thousands can stop buying newspapers in protest, send a message and see if they receive it loud and clear.

    The Scottish Sun 248,035 daily circa.

    The Scottish Sun Sunday 177,745

    Daily Record 216,029

    Sunday Mail 243,694

    fuck’em all!

  154. Flower of Scotland says:


    Rev, been on the Evening News Site about Murray . Did you see the comment from Edingardner at 4.04 pm? He said that you laughed at 9/11!! It is full of bile and it is Libel !

    First Ministers Questions were truly awful! Thank God we had a superb Nicola Sturgeon! She saw these idiots off. We definitely didn’t need Lucy Adams from BBC Scotland talking over Nicola .What was that about!

    People are right, this is getting very Dirty, so we should caw canny.

  155. JLT says:

    They just can’t help themselves! Seriously …all of them …all the bloody Unionists…

    Same at the Lib Dem conference.

    Clegg talked of a ‘sunshine strategy’

    Wee Willie Rennie, also talked of a ‘sunshine strategy’

    Same conference. George Lyon …‘Scotland would be forced out of the EU’

    So much for sunshine strategy …just like the weather in Scotland. The sunshine appeared for a few hours before disappearing behind that big black cloud that hovers over the Libs these days…

  156. caz-m says:

    Just watched STV 6pm news and was disgusted with them for running with that Weir Group crap.

    Everyone knows Weir Group’s views on the Scottish Parliament were proved wrong (They didn’t want a Scottish Parliament) and they now have similar views regarding Scottish Independence.

    This wasn’t mentioned on the STV report.

    STV just wanted to highlight that

    “another Scottish Company was against Independence”.

    It was a below the belt report, and I emailed them and asked if we will be getting a report tomorrow from a pro-Independence company.

    Also finished with,

    “Ya shower of dirty unionist bastards”

    So, don’t know if I will get reply or not.

  157. lumilumi says:

    Sorry, I haven’t had time to read all the comments above, I’m just reacting to Rev Stu’s article ATL.

    I’m saddened and scared that the “Better Together” campaign is dragging Scottish democracy down to the gutter. Maybe into false flag violence to preserve a broken union.

    They have no positive case for the union so they invoke past imperial glories (Let’s celebrate the start of a tragic, bloody war!) and try to scare voters with increasigly silly scarestories.

    UK Scottish politicians have free rein to lie and cheat, the Scottish BBC or other MSM will never pull them up on anything. Any SNP representative will be scrutinised and shouted down and their words twisted.

    Democracy UK style.

    The main reason I hope for a YES vote is that Scotland could become a normal, northern European multi-party PR democracy. Hello! There’s plenty of us here!

    Jaysis, if Tsarist Russia had come so heavy on us Finns in the late 19th, early 20th century, we’d never… oh, wait. They did. We didn’t believe their shite and became independent.

    Any classical music buff (I’m looking at you, Morag) will know that all Sibelius’s music was inspired by our independence struggle. Elging’s Imperial bombastimentiments are nothing compared to Sibelius’s music. (I cry every time the lonely piccolo flute comes out at “Finlandia”, it’s the message of hope.)

    What I find really, really deplorable is elected MPs, MSPs, councillors using their power to create or reinforce divisions in the Scottish society. The only winners are the wormtongues, telling one thing to one audience and another to another audience. (In Alex Salmond’s words, Scot Lab tell one thing in public, and another thing in public…)

    Ordinary people lose out if historic divisions are artificially held up in the modern world, but they are, to benefit a political party that bows both ways in their greedy grasp at Westmister power, and thinks their electorate won’t notice it.

    I think I’m not too tinfoilyhatty to expect more of these “vandalism” outrages (duly reported by the unionist press). It might not be co-ordinated but the NO side will want to provoke yessers so that they can blame all the bile and wrongs on yessers.

    So, to all you yessers: hold… hold… hold… hold…

    The “NOW!” should come on Sep 17 at the earliest.

  158. Alba4Eva says:

    …did I just hear that they are going to blow up Celtic Park to start the Commonwealth Games! 😮

  159. Flower of Scotland says:

    BBC Scotland with John Smith,s daughter Talking about Weir Group again,again,again again! Big Sigh! BBC and Labour together and Glen Thingy all having a go! EVERYTHING IS DOOM AND GLOOM . Less FISH in the sea! It just goes on and on! Be brave vote YES!

  160. Cath says:

    The more abuse they throw at us, the nicer we have to become, imo. Partly because that will annoy the hell out of those trying to provoke people. But also partly because even at the very worst polling results 1 in 3 Scots want independence. In the more recent polls it’s much closer to half, and in reality it’s probably more than that. So everyone (unless they’re really not getting out much) has friends, family and colleagues who are pro yes. And Scotland is a small country.

    So when the media, politicians and media commentators go all out to smear us all, that’s people’s parents, children, siblings and friends they’re smearing. It’s not like trying to smear a minority that the majority never comes into contact with and can be demonised. It’s demonising professionals, intellectuals, academics, and guys down the pub you know as friends. If you’re starting to veer towards yes yourself and might ask questions of the NO side on the internet, it’s you as well.

    It’s a tactic that can’t work. But for those who don’t get out too much beyond their own circle and might believe it, the best response is to be yourself and be nice. I tend not to even try and convert people directly these days. I just tell them I’m yes and suggest they research, read both sides and ask questions of both sides.

    They’re doing this because they have no confidence at all in their arguments. We can have confidence in ours.

  161. JLT says:

    Taranaich / Tartanfever:

    This is becoming ridiculous. If the polls close even more or if Yes start to show a lead, then I have no doubt that the No camp and it’s friends in the media will stage manage an event to turn the voters against independence.

    I heard people say this quietly, and I’ve seen posting about tanks on the streets.

    To be honest, guys. It won’t happen, and a for a few good reasons.

    1. The Independence debate from the ‘Yes’ side has been done professionally and honourably. None of the sites (such as this one, or others like Bella Caledonia, Newsnet Scotland, etc) have allowed any disturbing or racist comments to appear. There has been no vile vitriol at all. Facebook …well, that’s a different matter, but Facebook is global, and pretty much uncontrollable. We don’t own it, nor can we control or maintain it. Nowt to do with us!

    2. There has been no attacks on any persons from either side. To be honest, this is actually fantastic. That’s one good thing both sides can agree on. There has been arguments, bickering and accusations, but no violence of any sort …and long may it stay this way.

    3. For Better Together, the last thing they need is the Orange Order, BNP, SDL, EDL or whoever to suddenly begin attacking Nationalists. It will go down very badly right across Scotland. Such attacks might push folk into the ‘Yes’ group as they growl in disgust at what they will see as ‘Neo-British fascist attacks’.

    4.There will be no stage managed event to cause disruption. Once again, everyone knows that the ‘Yes’ campaign is non-violent political wing. If they begin winning, why would they go out their way to suddenly cause severe disruption. Many would suspect that it would be a staged event by the other side.

    5. There will be no tanks on the streets. Forget Glasgow 1919. At that time, revolution was sweeping Europe. Germany and Russia suffered big ones, and there was a serious chance of a Bolshevik-communist uprising; not just in Glasgow, but throughout the UK. It just began in Glasgow, but was soon suppressed. If anything, the Easter Uprising in Dublin 1916 and the aftermath will halt such thoughts by the establishment. What happened to the Nationalist there (shot, brutally treated in prison) turned the tide for Irish Nationalism. Once the Irish realised how brutal the British were being, the Irish voted for Independence, and got it in 1922. Putting tanks on the streets of Scotland will end the Union instantly. The people of Scotland will scream for Independence. So, tanks will not happen.

    I honestly believe that if the ‘Yes’ vote does pass the 50% mark and continues to increase, then I think Westminster will just accept it. They may not like it, and they may whine about it bitterly, but they will accept it. Nothing lasts forever …not even the Union.

  162. CameronB says:

    So, to all you yessers: hold… hold… hold… hold…

    Or as the Bob Marley and the Wailers says, “Simmer down, oh the battle will get hotter, Simmer down, oh I’m leaving you today”.

    Or something like that. 🙂

  163. Croompenstein says:

    @Another Union Dividend@1:13 –
    Ah the old ‘Bath based blogger’. Murray has a chug in the bath he could be called the ‘Bath based chugger’

  164. Aidan says:

    Wings ads appearing with a triumphant flourish and garnering a range of free media-coverage en passant.

    Newsnet commissioning a ‘mystery shopper’ style study of BBC coverage of the referendum, putting a beady academic eye on their output.

    Any BT lie on any subject being comprehensively skewered online within hours of being uttered, from grand pronouncements at the highest levels of policy to dark tales of rampaging visigoths leaving virtual stickers in their wake.

    No wonder they’re worried. 🙂

    Re: Lamont’s performance at FMQ’s, for those who haven’t watched it yet, keep an eye on the Labour MSPs behind her. None of them seem in particularly ebullient mood but the faces of Malcolm Chisolm and the lady beside him are something to behold.

    If you want to see a real sigh of hopeless resignation as Johann bangs on regardless, watch the lady on the right behind her at 5 minutes 15 seconds.

  165. caz-m says:

    @Taranaich – Scottish Home Rule 1913.

    Just read this bit of history from the 1913 Scottish Home Rule Debate in Westminster. See what you make of it.

    The language used is very similar to today’s warnings from the English Establishment.

    We haven’t moved on, they still think, as they did then, that we are dependant on them to survive,

    Also, even in 1913, they were warning us of border posts being set up.

  166. CameronB says:

    Any BT lie on any subject being comprehensively skewered online within hours of being uttered, from grand pronouncements at the highest levels of policy to dark tales of rampaging visigoths leaving virtual stickers in their wake.

    Not a lot of people know this…..but I think we can thank the Visigoths, or at least the response to their south-west migration, for giving us western-European feudalism as we know it and the new legal status of being ‘bound to the land’.

    Sorry for veering. 🙂

  167. GrahamB says:

    Flower of Scotland:
    Don’t think that was John Smith’s daughter but some other member of the Smith clan. But anyway she did bang on and on about the report for Weir’s being predicated on transaction charges. How are we going to get BT to understand that we are going to use STERLING after independence one way or another. Are they being 1) stupid 2) obtuse or 3) deliberately lying – I know which one my money would go on and it’s not 1) or 2).

  168. Johnny come lately says:

    Many have commented before that the MSM in Scotland have taken on the roll of being the opposition to the SG due to the implosion of the 3 main opposition parties.
    What we’re now seeing is the implosion of BT. One bad week and they are totally demoralized and have run for cover. This Murry and Weir nonsense is just filling the void- the terrible silence. If the media wasn’t making all of this background noise then the silence would be deafening. There is no opposition now. The end game is now in play.

  169. Andy-B says:

    I think the likes of Bill Jamieson know exactly what they’re printing, its a concerted attempt to smear the the SNP and anyone in connection with the YES camp,its much easier to decry someone if you give them a nasty name like Cybernazi or Fascist.

    Unfortunately for them, its a negative campaign tactic, especially when the no camp keep reapeating things like there will be no currency union, even though they’ve been caught out lying about the currency union, thankfully the truth can be found on websites such as yours.

  170. Croompenstein says:

    @Aidan – Just watched FMQ’s, oh my good God in fucking heaven that woman is an utter embarrassment. Even her own side hardly raised a noise they usually bang the tables but very little, she is a lame duck but is important to Yes, so long may she reign

  171. K1 says:

    Thanks JLT, well reasoned and accurate assessment of the reality, but sometimes it’s just hard not to imagine the worst case scenarios, especially in light of the venom and lies that are spewed out daily. Thank goodness for Wings and all you wonderful sane people btl!

  172. Linda's Back says:

    While the unionists will stoop below the gutter in their attempts to smear the Yes campaign / the SNP and First Minister Alex Salmond, all separate entities, SNP elected representative who have received death threats and multiple cases of vandalism to their offices do not seek publicity or smear opponents over the actions of a few nutters as all it does is to encourage others.

    The Murray office stickers in question were not produced by Yes campaign or by the SNP but Murray wasn’t interested in establishing the facts before launching his smear.

  173. Morag says:

    What is this “stickers” of which you speak? We only have evidence of one, and in the larger image posted by the Huffingdon Post it looks pretty lonely. It’s also absolutely tiny.

  174. Albert Herring says:

    Aye, who is that woman? She sat stony-faced through the whole proceedings.

  175. Croompenstein says:

    @Albert Herring – looks like Anne’s different

  176. Aidan says:

    You’re right, it’s Anne McTaggart.

    Usually the backbenchers are whooping and roaring and banging their desks in response to everything Johann says – Jackie ‘Guest Speaker’ Baillie got the same raucous support last week. This week, the atmosphere behind her was markedly different. It’s almost like they WEREN’T behind her. 🙂

    And Anne MacTaggart – for it was she – gave a most remarkable sigh during her leader’s second go at the horrible remains of her first question. To my eye, it expressed not only disengagement but deep disenchantment.

  177. rab_the_doubter says:

    Anyone else thinking what im thinking?

    Lets paint a massive union flag on the red road flats. It would look great collapsing in a heap of rubble at the start of the Comnonwealth Games.

  178. Grouse Beater says:

    @ rab

    Lets paint a massive union flag on the red road flats. It would look great collapsing in a heap of rubble at the start of the Commonwealth Games.

    Now, that’s truly imaginative, far superior to Boyle’s cringeworthy paean to the “Brit” way of life and children in hospital beds that closed the Lundin ‘Lympics

  179. Taranaich says:

    @JLT: I heard people say this quietly, and I’ve seen posting about tanks on the streets.

    To be honest, guys. It won’t happen, and a for a few good reasons.

    I agree, actually. This government wouldn’t be so blunt as to roll tanks onto the streets: it’ll be water cannon, if anything. But I wasn’t citing the tanks/Willie MacRae/etc to suggest that we’d see a repeat of 1919, simply that when it comes to history, there’s been a LOT more violence from the Union towards Nationalists than the reverse.

    That’s what sticks in the craw about the “SNP/nationalists = fascists” meme: how many people have the SNP jailed for sedition, or saying an SNP politician has blood on their hands? How many journalists’ hard drives have been destroyed by SNP thugs? How many vulnerable teenagers have the SNP incarcerated in detention centres away from their families? Why are the SNP the ones being accused of harbouring dangerous ideas that endanger the country, when it’s every other party which has conspired to cover up, undermine and control the people of this country?

    @caz-m: Just read this bit of history from the 1913 Scottish Home Rule Debate in Westminster. See what you make of it.

    The language used is very similar to today’s warnings from the English Establishment.

    We haven’t moved on, they still think, as they did then, that we are dependant on them to survive,

    Indeed – but now we have the internet!

  180. Craig says:

    JLT, I have grave reservations about Westminster ‘accepting’ a Yes vote.

    The Yes vote needs to be massive to win despite inevitable rigging and to be ‘accepted’ by Westminster.

    And even a Yes vote will not prevent Westminster from subverting newly independent Scotland. It has a track record of doing that throughout its former empire.

  181. I see this everywhere, but often when someone invokes Godwins law by bringing about a Nazi comparison, they in themselves have actually already employed tactics that those demons would be proud of.

    Putin does it all the time with his enemies. UKIP also like to make that comparison with their enemies too.

  182. Macandroid says:

    @ JLT

    “There has been no attacks on any persons from either side” –
    except for the attack on the YES supporting pensioner in Edinburgh.

  183. john allan says:

    Scotland: a nation, not a region
    APR 4, 2014
    GLASGOW, SCOTLAND – An independent parliament in waiting, Edinburgh’s devolved Holyrood legislature will become the beating heart of Scotland’s democracy if the country backs itself and votes yes in September’s independence referendum.
    There is certainly no logical reason why a rich, naturally left-of-center country like Scotland would vote against the best interests of the majority of those who call it home, to pursue the right-wing future offered by both Westminster parties.
    For Scotland, independence is about democracy not nationalism; it’s about righting the wrongs of a country living its life as a region.
    In a manic desperation to safeguard Westminster rule, British nationalists are trying to con people in Scotland into believing black is white: that more austerity, an increase in the retirement age, pensions being privatized, nuclear weapons on the doorstep of Scotland’s largest city, a lower life expectancy, record numbers of food banks, governments it didn’t vote for, are the best thing for Scotland.
    “Die before you retire” would be an apt slogan for the no campaign.

  184. Will Podmore says:

    In the 1930s, it allowed the Scottish Union of Fascists to join en bloc.

    Billy Bigbaws claims that there has never been a Scots Nat among British fascists. Unfortunately, that is not so. In January 1939, Douglas Young, who led the SNP from 1942 to 1945, wrote, “If Hitler could neatly remove our imperial breeks somehow and thus dissipate the mirage of Imperial partnership with England etc he would do a great service to Scottish Nationalism.” In August 1940, Young wrote, “The Germans will look around for aborigines to run Scotland and it is to be wished that the eventual administration consist of people who have in the past shown themselves to care for the interests of Scotland.” Wasn’t that an offer to run Scotland for Hitler, like Petain and Laval did for France?

  185. Jock Scot says:

    In relation to reacting to Britnats and the’s fun letting them rage on and when they’ve finished, jusy say Aye,O.K…smile and shake your head, then turn away and get your video camera ready…just in case!

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