Shut up or get out
When I entered front line politics in 2012 as an SNP councillor, I was clear that my guiding ambition was to play a full part in the restoration of independence to Scotland. Over the past 10 years that commitment has only strengthened as the need for independence has grown ever more urgent. From oil and gas, to wind, tidal, wave and hydro Scotland’s vast energy resources keeps the UK powered and Her Majesty’s Treasury pumped full of cash.
Make no mistake, Scotland IS the broad shoulders of the UK.
Our reward for that vast contribution of energy, food, drink and water? To be fleeced of those resources, charged for transmitting our energy, denied access to associated revenue and berated, and ridiculed in the “mother of all parliaments”.
But it’s the social injustice that results from this distortion of governance that is finally beginning to dawn on many as the cost-of-living crisis deepens and more Scots find they are paying through the nose for energy when Scotland produces far more than we could possibly need.
When I rose to my feet on Wednesday 13th July, I had no doubt about the words I was going to say. I had no doubt about who I would be speaking to, and I had no doubt about who I was speaking for.
As Kenny made to leave the chamber after his rebuke from the speaker, I began to deliver my assessment of the current impasse on Scotland’s constitutional future.
The moment was chosen for maximum political exposure. The most dishonest and disreputable Prime Minister in UK history was about to begin his swan song and we were determined that Scotland would be heard and our mandate for independence would not be ignored.
For my point of order, I addressed Boris Johnson directly: “Mr. Speaker, that charlatan has no mandate, no right, and no authority to dismiss the voice of the people of Scotland”, I started, going on to add “Someone who no longer commands the support of his own party, has no right to hold our nation hostage. Not him or his unelected successors. Scotland’s Claim of Right must be respected!”
For those who dismiss what we did, make no mistake our action that day amplified the cause of independence far beyond the Common’s chamber. Our intervention in parliament was no mere stunt, it has been reported across Europe and beyond to Mexico, China and many places in between.
As a consequence, the following Wednesday the ALBA party leadership held a very successful press conference with the Foreign Press Association, such is the interest in democracy denial for Scotland. Gaining interest and recognition of this is a vital component of building international support for Scottish independence
The cost-of-living calamity being endured in Scotland is a direct and unnecessary consequence of Westminster rule. It’s not Scotland that should fear independence -be in no doubt it is HM Treasury who fear the double whammy of losing Scotland’s revenue and having to pay an independent Scotland a fair rate for our energy surplus, our water, and our exceptional food and drink.
Scotland’s people need not suffer this iniquity, but we need to corral the justified anger into peaceful and persistent public demonstrations and build an unstoppable drive towards independence.
On Wednesday the 13th of July Scotland was given a clear ultimatum from the Speaker; “Shut up or get out”. Scotland won’t shut up, so now’s the time to get out.
Good post thanks will copy it to Facebook
You forgot the alcohol duties. That big industrial distillery above Kirkcaldy produces a large proportion of the UK’s spirits under license. There is no equivalent in England. Just think of the export earnings that alone will bring us. Have tasted their single grain whisky, an interesting drop.
The trick in an Indy Scotland will be to ensure all this export wealth benefits the people of Scotland in terms of government income. Our energy production is largely owned by overseas entities. This must either change or we must find ways to ensure they pay fairly for their extraction of our natural resources.
The pittance paid for the last tranche of offshore wind licenses does not inspire confidence.
When we were in the EU there was much angst against EU boats fishing here but landing their fish back home. Under EU rules WM could have insisted they land them here. Benefiting companies and workers in our fishing ports. But it did not.
After Indy whether in EFTA or EU we must ensure we do this. If nothing else those fish will add to our export earnings if landed here.
A WM PM plus a WM Speaker out-done by honest and intellectually superior (by far) true Scots politicians.
Very well done Neale Hanvey!
Neale Hanvey,
Thanks for standing up for Scotland, we have too few people representing us.
Muscleguy, the alcohol duties you talk about are in fact charged in the tax regime where it is consumed.
All exported spirits are duty free.
Sorry to rain on your parade.
I just want to say thank you Neale, to yourself and Kenny MacAskill too.
I believe what you fellas did has only just registered with many people, but I honestly believe in time it is going to resonate and shake the Palace of Westminster.
It’s not scientific by any means, simply my own limited perceptions from lurking around our online community, but I honestly believe something changed that day. The SNP’s tail went from up to down, with sods like Nicolson and Wishart exposed in sharp silhouette for the carpetbaggers they are, and it did not go unnoticed.
You gave people, some of them SNP people due cause to despair and vent their anger and frustration with the SNP sitting on their backsides, while yourself and Kenny were on your feet defending the SNP’s Referendum, despite the fact it wasn’t even ALBA’s route to Independence.
The less Sturgeon’s SNP does from here on out, the more your actions are going to resonate.
Keep doing what you’re doing Neale, because I do not believe in Sturgeons Referendum happening, and that will compromise both her and I think Holyrood too, and when we’re voting in a Plebiscite General Election, if we’re not all under one umbrella by then, then I want ALBA on my ballot.
“but we need to corral the justified anger into peaceful and persistent public demonstrations and build an unstoppable drive towards independence.”
Sounds great Mr Hanvey, but many indy minded folk still believe Sturgeon will deliver us from this union, and they won’t hear a bad word spoken about her, so they won’t demonstrate, we need a united indy movement.
So what’s the plan to unite us.
It gets ever more and more desperate, dire and unsustainable. Scotland is burgeoning tragedy of epic and entitely antidemocratic proportions.
Bugger Le Panda @ 1:33 pm
“All exported spirits are duty free.”
That does not mean there isn’t immense transfer pricing going on, especially inter-corporate deals which any sensible sovereign country of origin would look closely at, much the same for energy and certain other major Scottish exports, as well as self-regulating monopolies intercepting economic rents. The Scotch Whisky Assoc tends to be run by ex FCO folks as reflecting its strategic significance to the British state. More or less everything in a colony is plundered, the people enslaved and exploited, leaving them and their nation under-developed, not ‘in the game’ internationally or at all.
It strikes me, that if the SNP had a fraction of the integrity and passion shown by Neale and Kenny, they could right now be drawing leverage and heading for the door any time they chose, declaring that Scotland would have no part whatsoever in the wilful breaking of International Law over the Northern Ireland Protocol and threat to the Good Friday Agreement.
Scotland might thereby resurrect “something” approaching the status of the Constitutional Backstop, which they didn’t even try to secure back in 2016, but a backstop which has served Ireland, the EU and Northern Ireland very well ever since.
It’s only six years late, but if the SNP doesn’t toughen up and do something, then ALBA is going to leave them for dead.
“Our intervention in parliament was no mere stunt.” I’m sorry Neale, but it was – pure and simple, the sort of childish rubbish the more IQ challenged SNP MPs (and of course Labour, the Tories and ESPECIALLY the Northern Irish MPs) get up to frequently because they can’t string a single coherent thought into a sentence and have nothing else to offer.
I was especially disappointed in Kenny McAskill – he of all MPs I expected to have known better.
It had zero to do with “noble intentions” and everything to do with the Alba Party being up the creek without a paddle and you guys being desperate to crash your way into the headlines to boost members morale and attract disaffected SNP members.
Outside of the internet, I’ve heard NO-ONE say what you two did was even a good idea, let alone the hammerblow for Scotland you’re bloviating (or merely kidding yourselves aloud) it was.
Instead they’re all saying the same thing – you acted like idiots.
You had an open goal to kick into – the impending change of Prime Minister without bothering to consult the electorate yet again, the number of SNP MPs like Mhari Black who as usual never bother their arse turning up for their work as opposed to yourselves, and the opportunity to show some style and substance as opposed to Blawbag Blackford’s routine belching of platitutes in as many words as possible.
A chance to showcase your party, your way of doing things in a positive light. But no. You blew it. All shrill, no skill: more in common with McGlashin’s peddle to the border to bellow predictable insults (at least he was funny).
And now you’ve got a big X on your backs from Hoyle for pissing him off on what was always going to be a tense enough day for him, so what’s your chances going to be now of getting points of order in the chambers? Slim to zero in all likelyhood.
Happy now?
I have just tried to share Neale’s excellent article to Facebook, but it was blocked due to apparently having been ‘reported as containing offensive language’. The extent of suppression of news and information is becoming truly frightening in this ultr-right-wing state. And they criticise a certain other country for its propaganda and suppression of the truth!
.
Neale,
Thank you for showing some integrity.
PLEASE can someone deploy the Alex Salmond principles from when we had 5 SNPs in that place. Read Erskine May.
Then report MR Lyndsay Hoyle, for bringing the office he holds AND/OR Parliament into disrepute?
The visceral hatred Hoyle Junior has of Scotland is racist and his ignorant low-IQ restricted vocabulary tantrum with Gammon faced spluttering of the wrong rules was an embarrassment to that institution. Neale, as you say, Hoyle was seen being verbally incontinent by viewers all over the world.
If that is how the Mother of All Parliaments allows it’s Speaker to behave, then it’s has given birth to a barstewardd (sic).
So let us use the rules to highlight the failings of Hoyle et al.
Let us not forget that MR Lyndsay Hoyle is the son of the infamously rude and bent “Cash For Questions” MP Doug Hoyle…
link to theguardian.com
It is the Hoyle tribe that should GET OUT of that place.
Thanks Neale for this article and your demonstration in Westminster that raised the spirits of many thousands.
Interesting to hear there was a spike in international interest. Foreign journalists will be wondering how Britain can claim to be sincere in promoting freedom and democracy in Ukraine whilst aggressively blocking it in Scotland.
They’ll also be looking more closely at the highly suspicious role of the SNP under Sturgeon in all this which should raise some interesting questions, starting with the obvious;
Whose side is Nicola on?
Parnell used Westminster’s procedures to make the case for Ireland’s freedom.
Speaker John Bercow advised the SNP to do the same.
So long as we are stuck with Westminster we should not be playing by its rules. It is ridiculous to do so.
Now if only the SNP would start working to get us out of the UK. Perhaps they could start by reading Scotland’s Constitution – and acting accordingly.
Mark Boyle,
Everyone I have spoken to has great admiration for what Neale and Kenny did.
You are utterly wrong.
To Mark Boyle –
I’m sorry Mark but that’s nonsense. It is impossible to make a point of any use or influence at all inside Westminster unless you are prepared to be thrown out, quite simply. There is no evidence at all that polite point-making by a minority party even gets noticed, and had Alba MPs made such a polite point as you seem to be suggesting, they would have been ignored, of course, but also forgotten. Your own response here is a level of proof that the Alba MPs did make a splash. And the SNP needs to do the same. Again – there is no polite route for pro-independence MPs to politely argue their way towards anything at all. If the Scottish MPs are not willing to stand up and risk being thrown out – what on earth use are they being there?
Sidewinder says:
24 July, 2022 at 4:38 pm
Your own response here is a level of proof that the Alba MPs did make a splash.
No, it is a level of proof I am responding to an article written by one of the two responsible for said farrago.
Maybe one day some of you will learn to stop putting sauce, sprinkles and a flake on events to make them appear a bigger deal than they are.
Once again the other representatives for Scotland were revealed to be pointless. Better we have reps who only shown up when there is a point, like to wave goodbye, forever or to disrupt that den of corruption. Weel done you.
Thanks Neale, and thanks to Kenny for your efforts.
The fool Hoyle embarrassed himself and showed exactly what Westminster is about. The SNP sit like house jocks and do nothing. If they don’t like being embarrassed by Alba, why don’t they stop listening to their arteries hardening and get up and join them? No, they’d rather beat up on Alba than risk some raised eyebrows from their pals on the other side of the house.
Any party that is serious about independence will not sit in that place and see Scotland’s rights blithely ignored.
@Mark Boyle,
I suggest you read about ” Obstructionism’ and Parnell.
The actions of Alba MP’s have resonance, whatever those who dismiss them say. The silence of the devolutionists in the SNP speaks volumes. They appear to have forgotten, or more likely don’t care, about the fillip their party received when SNP MPs all walked out of Westminster.
I rate both Neale Hanvey and Kenny McKaskill. It’s a shame there weren’t more Scottish MPs with half their courage and integrity, but we are where we are. Hoyle’s slightly deranged display, and his obvious lack of knowledge of the names of the MPs involved, and the very processes of the house he purports to represent, is the kind of publicity you just can’t buy. A Ruritarian display in a shambolic, medieval anachronism posing as a 21st century democracy. That in iteself was probably worth a few thousand votes.
A reckoning is coming, whether Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP like it or not. Before too long, they will have to answer the old advertising question “Where’s the beef?”. When the Scottish electors realise they’ve been had, and that #indyref2 just isn’t happening, they’ll have to justify their sad devotion to a failed religion, and show us the alternative.
Naturally any nationalist movement worth its salt would already have been holding an electoral gun to the britnats heads in the form of threatening to precipitate early Holyrood elections, and make them plebiscitary.
But we don’t have such a government, do we? Hopefully we will before too long, but I won’t be expecting “cunning plans for indy” to deliver the promised Convention of the Estates any time soon, certainly not before either Holyrood or Westminster scheduled General Elections.
If any of the proponents of such plans can convince me that’s wrong, I’m all ears: I’d love to believe their route offers us a path to independence faster than plebiscitary elections, but so far the silence has been deafening.
I say well done and thank you.
Yes engage as normal with the most corrupt PM and Government in Europe and just get knocked back or have them walk out when Scotland speaks.
This clown Hoyle sanctions SNP for clapping previously and now he thinks it was bad taste SNP didn’t clap the pathological liar and narcissist as he gets kicked out for corruption.
Reap havoc in that cess pit until Scotland is free of it.
This will reverberate around the EU and beyond to further blacken the name of England and the Mother F…er of all parliaments.
Good stuff Mr Hanvey, we need more of this. And it certainly wont come from the compromised SNP.
You can call anything a “stunt” – so what? We need bigger, better, more obstructive stunts.
– it’s also good for morale, showing the fucking hogwarts anglo twats no one gives a fuck about their quidditch rules, rolling up your trouser leg, bearing your breast, etc – stupid fucking bullshit. Remove the cringe.
You should be proud to be chucked out of that paedo discotheque.
Mark Boyle says:
Outside of the internet, I’ve heard NO-ONE say what you two did was even a good idea, let alone the hammerblow for Scotland you’re bloviating (or merely kidding yourselves aloud) it was.
Instead they’re all saying the same thing – you acted like idiots.
LOL. More creative writing from Mark Boyle.
Who are these people Mark? Was Wishart one of them?
The video of Hoyle going mental merits a lot of sauce, a shit load of sprinkles and a whole box of flakes.
That followed by all the Tory candidates “astonished at the rebellious disposition which unhappily exists in some of our colonies” saying ‘no our Scottish colony cannot have permission to have a referendum must have been good for a good few new YES voters.
Quite an astonishing performance by the speaker.
Well done to Neale & Kenny!
@Alf Baird, I do not doubt especially if and intermediate in a low tax regime.
As for the SWA, the last, I think, Head of SWA was the now Lord Frost of Brexit
The SNP are to bring back warrant sales in Scotland for consumer debt, it was laid down by SNPs Keith Brown.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
link to advicescotland.com
It’s always easy to spot the enemies of independence. They lose the plot when anyone stands up for us, just as selfish scum lose the plot when anyone stands up for the poor.
Hatuey , spot on.
The simple mistake the SNP are making. Is trying to change Westminster, instead of trying to leave it. The numbers tell us they can’t even make a ripple. Like pissing in a head wind.
I see Jo Cherry has been elected to some committe or other involving human rights. WTF does she think will come of that. England in general doesn’t respect human rights never mind WM.
Why does she want to change the UK. They are elected to get us out, not be administraters for the colonists.
It’s so wrong headed at every level. Before the SNP became the third biggest party. They played no part in WM games. They disrupted and spent every day making sure WM knew how they felt. Power has gone to Blackfords head. He thinks his job is to play by WM rules. It isn’t. His Job is to disrupt,rebel and take no part on its corrupt committees and antiquated rules.
We have 46 MPs down there , doing her haw to advance Scottish independence.
Hatuey says:
24 July, 2022 at 7:33 pm
It’s always easy to spot the enemies of independence. They lose the plot when anyone stands up for us, just as selfish scum lose the plot when anyone stands up for the poor.
It’s always easy to spot the mouth breather. They see the world purely in terms of right vs wrong, goodies vs baddies, just as ten year olds tend to from watching too many American cartoons.
Republicofscotland says:
24 July, 2022 at 7:19 pm
The SNP are to bring back warrant sales in Scotland for consumer debt, it was laid down by SNPs Keith Brown.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
link to advicescotland.com
Meanwhile Tommy Sheridan … who has had the common sense (albeit learned by the school of The Hard Way) to sit back and await the golden moment, will now see his golden moment has arrived, as the wheels of history turn on a certain issue he all but made his own two decades ago.
A Scottish National Party government – reintroducing Warrent Sales.
Bye bye Sturgeon, you are toast. Bye bye SNP Glasgow and Edinburgh, you soon won’t know what’s hit you if you are suicidal enough to go ahead with this.
Hello Neale and Kenny … NOW you have your issue you can raise in Parliament for maximum publicity and popularity, and will likely have the support of everyone else bar Iain Duncan Smith and the SNP.
Meanwhile those on the SNP benches will now have a choice – rebel against their party publicly on the issue – and be thrown out for daring to defy Dear Leader – or be thrown out by the voters at the next election.
We owe you both a debt of gratitude for channelling the spirit of our ancestors and showing the mettle which was for so long the hallmark of our nation. And I agree with your sentiment: “Scotland’s people need not suffer this iniquity, but we need to corral the justified anger into peaceful and persistent public demonstrations and build an unstoppable drive towards independence.”
William Borman in his book “Gandhi and Non-Violence” quotes Gandhi as saying the following about non-violence:
“In violence there is nothing invisible. Non-violence, on the other hand, is three-fourths invisible, so that effect is in the inverse ratio to its invisibility. Non-violence, when it becomes active, travels with extraordinary velocity, and then it becomes a miracle. So the mass mind is affected first unconsciously, then consciously…”
I would like to think the same about the Claim of Right, that it is the lever which will set us free, and when awareness of it becomes active it will travel through the national consciousness with extraordinary velocity. As Archimedes said: “Give me a place to stand, a lever long enough and a fulcrum, and I can move the Earth”. The Claim of Right is our lever to end the Union and the Scottish people are the fulcrum around which the lever will turn – a fulcrum that moves history. It is not might which is right, but right which is might.
As for the abject failure of your compatriots to show their support, it occurs to me that the neo-SNP have been asking us all along to have faith in them without any proof of their works: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”. And the SNP, under Sturgeon, are truly moribund!
I was glad the Scottish representative was able to voice their concerns. I thought the speaker came across unprofessionally and quite nasty, as if he was being horrible towards Scottish people.
If only Muriel Gray was a Brutish Labour MP at Westminster in charge of house keeping.
@ Mark Boyle at 8:39 pm
As was highlighted yesterday evening… Also fairly certain a decent number of Scots would want to retain trial by jury.
Would have thought someone with a good sense of justice could make political capital out of that too…
Aye yer a lad Mark Boyle. LOL
Thank you Neale for your efforts and thanks Rev for bringing Neale’s thoughts and opinions to a wider audience.
A pity the invertebrates on the SNP benches had left their backbones in the Commons’ cloakroom. What it must be to have been bought and sold for English gold…
As for that Albaphobic walloper who just loves the sound of his own voice, well… what more need one say?
WM is a shit place to be. Everyone hates the SNP & the SNP hate Neil & Kenny.
Mark Boyle – We’ve all known for a long time now that WM is a complete waste of time & effort. How can you be heard in a cespit of vipers baying like animals? The speaker decides who speaks & who doesn’t. Why didn’t he also throw out the verbal Tory members telling him to throw them out? This same bigoted chancer shut down Cherry mid-sentence telling her she was finished & in another debate had the audacity to state ‘I have *allowed* the SNP this debate on Scotland – Now shut up & let Tory’s filibust the whole topic..oops, I mean others want to speak) He absolutely despises the SNP & makes no bones about it.
How can you ever be heard above the rabble? – you can’t unless you make you’re own noise. I’d rather have two show a backbone than 50+ SNP with none at all. I actually detest them now myself by the way they’ve turned into troughers who’ve done feck all for Scotland in 7 years. I hope the public do vote them out at the next election.
They shouldn’t even be there. Mary Lou McDonald had it right. It only gives that shite hole legitimacy & Scots should follow their lead & refuse to turn up & stop playing the object of English ridicule. It doesn’t benefit Scotland in any way, shape or form & never will.
& also – it doesn’t benefit those advocating international recognition either.
They wouldn’t watch 2 minutes of Westminster. It’s an uncivilised cespit & they (at least EU) have stated as much. Nowhere in the world do other parliaments act like they do. So Scotland can be ridiculed all they like while playing the poor us card hoping someone somewhere notices – they won’t unless it hits the news bulletin.
John Harris in the Guardian makes an unabashed case for direct action over climate change:
“Activism and protest often trigger a kneejerk suspicion that they will alienate people and kill whatever cause they advocate. But experience suggests the exact opposite: just as successive waves of social reformers, the suffragettes and the anti-apartheid movement were stubborn, daring and creative enough to make their demands irresistible, so the people now lying in roads and charging into airports and refineries have conveyed the urgency of climate breakdown more successfully than anyone in a suit.”
If you want an indyref, maybe (non-violent) direct action is a better strategy than moaning about the do-nothing SNP. We get it – the SNP are more interested in cocks in frocks than in indy. So forget them, move past them. Get out and cause inconvenience. You won’t be loved for it by the likes of the Scotsman (or even the SNP) but if you were it would just be proof you’re ineffective, harmless and pose no risk to the unionist status quo.
I’m failing to see what was achieved?
They got kicked out. Made a news story for a day. Then it’s forgotten about. It didn’t change the narrative. Didn’t move anything forward. Didn’t even merit further discussions. You’re trying to paint Boris as a lying bastard, which everyone knows to be the case. He’s corrupt and unethical.
The next Tory leaders say no and continue their day to day job of fleecing the poor and not caring about them or anyone else until the next general election. And in the next GE Neal and Kenny won’t have seats as Alba will return 0.
Nicola stamps her feet then decides she needs another mandate for her mandate and this progresses to 2030 with no vote. Saint Nicola needs to be removed from leadership for anything to actually move forward.
Agreed Roger. We only need to look at the advances Scottish Independence has made in the last 7 years to see the results.
It’s made zero advance. It’s sat on its arse while peddling backwards into destination boredom.
I have a question – why is Cherry on an English human rights committee? She can change diddly squat on international matters & even less on Int laws regarding asylum seekers.
& To find out what? That the English colonial toffs are white supremacists & couldn’t gaf what the talking shop/coffee morning crew thinks? Still, it’s free cake eh & a wee blether.
Neale and Kenny did more to lift our spirits in 60 seconds than that shower of gimmicks have done in 8 years.
I’d be very interested to know what foreign journalists thought of this situation, although I’m sure I could guess.
The story here isn’t that Hoyle revealed his or Westminster’s contempt for Scotland or anything of that sort. Westminster and Hoyle were behaving exactly as you’d expect, rationally even; without Scotland and Scottish resources, England becomes a cold and wet version of Turkey.
No. The real story concerns the SNP and its highly suspicious role in containing Scottish democracy, which is effectively what they’ve done since the Brexit vote. Attention was drawn to that role, thanks to Neale and Kenny.
Independence is to the SNP what Socialism is to New Labour — a bullshit marketing word that fewer and fewer mugs fall for.
I join with others apart from Marky boy in applauding Kenny and Neale’s actions BUT I DEMAND more disruption and antagonism to be ongoing
As others have stated and we all know, the Scots reps are not listened to , they cannot effect any change , they are continuously berated and denigrated , they add nothing to any discussion and their thoughts and opinions are ridiculed when not ignored
And as for the despicable craven coward SNP collaborators who either sat immobile or joined in the ridiculing of the baying scum , WE SEE YOU and payback will be sweet
The sight of the hate contorted face of the Speaker backed by the baying and braying of English MPs said it all. At a stroke, and televised for all the world to see it brought into crystal clear view the utter hatred of the English against the people of Scotland.
And the cause of this ugly vicious outpouring of resentment was the realisation that the Scots have right to choose their future. And it is a right that England can never extinguish. And that is why such fury. The thought of Scotland controlling its own resources of gas, oil, wind and hydro energy, fishing and so much more fills them with fear and this response showed it for all to see.
Hanvey and MacAskill have fired the starting gun and they know it and now is the time for us all to put our shoulders to the wheel and take what is ours and become so much more. No Section 30 required.
Blackford. STF Up. DO Something. Do SOMETHING
That photo is of a man with no class , control or conscience. He would be out on his ear in a real job in the real world – no privileged protection there.
twathater says:
25 July, 2022 at 2:29 am
I join with others apart from Marky boy in applauding Kenny and Neale’s actions BUT I DEMAND more disruption and antagonism to be ongoing…
Agreed. But the thing is, it wouldn’t even have to be contrived.
Westminster is sitting there pushing through legislation which they KNOW is incompatible with the Northern Irish Protocol, and whenever the Border goes anywhere, it’s going to jeopardise the Good Friday Agreement.
All Scotland needs to do is simply line itself up beside World opinion; Ireland, N Ireland, the EU, the USA and the UN, and declare that if Westminster willfully reneges on it’s International Agreements, then that has a direct impact on Scotland’s International Treaty with England.
Six years late, but finally a backstop for Scotland. Hurrah!
…Except we’re “led” by the same SNP good-for-nothings spending too much time getting wrecked in bars and touching each other up inappropriately, and who turn into gibbering wrecks whenever they’re confronted with an open goal.
Here’s a wicked point.
The Scotland Act Reserves certain matters to Westminster (as we all know, that’s the problem with holding an indyref). Amongst those things reserved is the ‘union between Scotland and England’…but what is NOT mentioned is the Union with N. Ireland.
Suppose Holyrood threatened to passe an act repealling the union between Scotland and N. Ireland if there’s no agreement on an indyref? That union is NOT specifically reserved, and ending it would deal a mortal blow to the UK state….
Just suggesting that would cause havoc and scare the shite out of London.
@ Roger
A more wicked point is the way Scotland has clearly been held back in its development over the course of this few hundred year Union. The very obvious population growth disparity (with all the economic advantage that gave England) between the two Kingdoms in this supposedly equal Union is plain to see and prove.
Getting mightily tired of “nationalist” politicians making more hot air around the cause of pronouns, and using their time and energy covering for their compatriots lascivious behaviour, rather than moving to end the Union on the grounds of the continual breach of its terms, in that no constituent part should have a economic advantage over another.
Roger @10:18
There was never a union between Scotland and N.Ireland.
The Act of Union of 1801 was between the Kingdom of Great Britain and Kingdom of Ireland, creating the ‘United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland “.
The Government of Ireland Act 1920 split the island of Ireland into Northern and Southern Ireland, crucially both within the UK. The Anglo-Irish Treaty the following year saw the Irish Free State withdraw from the UK, whilst remaining within the Crown’s Dominions until the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 saw Ireland achieve full independence in 1949.
When the island of Ireland was partitioned, the North didn’t leave the UK whilst the South did, therefore the North’s “union” with Great Britain is simply a continuation of the 1801 union between Great Britain and the whole of Ireland.
The repeal of Scotland’s union with England would dissolve the Kingdom of Great Britain, leaving the “Kingdom of Scotland” and the “Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland” (The Kingdom of England having included the former Principality of Wales since 1535/42).
Flags, Royal Arms, styles and titles following any repeal of the 1706/7 Acts of the English and Scottish parliaments are of course open to dispute/negotiation.
@Dan
The Act of Union has been breached hundreds of times – and people have been moaning about it for years. It changes nothing though.
And big speeches about what Scotland ‘will not accept’ changes nothing either. Nor does moralising about the wrongs of how London won’t grant an S. 30 indyref.
Moralising, moaning and making debating points doesn’t work – it’ll all just be ignored. If people want action on indy, they need to make a nuisance of themselves that London can’t ignore.
Roger says:
25 July, 2022 at 12:39 am
John Harris in the Guardian makes an unabashed case for direct action over climate change:
“Activism and protest often trigger a kneejerk suspicion that they will alienate people and kill whatever cause they advocate. But experience suggests the exact opposite: just as successive waves of social reformers, the suffragettes and the anti-apartheid movement were stubborn, daring and creative enough to make their demands irresistible, so the people now lying in roads and charging into airports and refineries have conveyed the urgency of climate breakdown more successfully than anyone in a suit.”
1. It’s The Guardian – the people who backed Tony Blair shutting down civil liberties at every turn and murdering elderly weapons experts who knew too much. They only approve direct action when it’s a Tory government – the rest of the time it’s “sit down, keep quiet, the real people know what’s best for you.”
2. Do people still believe that crap about the Suffragettes? Those morons hijacked the woman’s suffrage movement at the point in history it appeared Millicent Fawcett’s Suffragists had won over enough of those in Parliament for a Bill to get through. The end result of their handiwork was a near two decade delay and it being limited to women owning property and over 30 years of age (thirty years after the Isle Of Man had passed the same, and days ironically before Tynwald changed its rules to equalise the franchise!). It would be another ten years before equality was reached in the mainland UK – thanks Pankhurst, you attention junkie dipshit!
3. Apartheid was a dead duck the moment a white man assassinated its architect Vervoord. As Eeban Barlow put it in his book “Executive Outcomes” what followed was quarter of a century wasted on jockeying for position by the leaders of the Bantus, the Zulus, the Boers and South Africa’s business interests regarding the division of the spoils to come – the whole rotten edifice should have come crashing down by around the same time the US was being humiliated in ‘Nam: instead time was wasted on ludicrous “homelands”, its “pan-African” policy designed to lessen its African neighbours reliance on “strings attached” aid from the US and Russia, and other nonsensical initiatives designed to alleviate this week’s crisis.
The Anti-Apartheid movement achieved fk all except self-congratulation: it was the economic blockade (largely for business reasons than any moral ones: South Africa being regarded as a threat to Western business interests) which finally tipped the scales. One can sum up the attitude of those within it by the fact one of its biggest mouths in the UK, a certain Donald Dewar, was found upon his death to have been in possession of thousands of pounds worth of shares in South Africa’s defence industry dating back to apartheid times. “Don’t do as I do …” – how very Labour!
“That photo is of a man with no class , control or conscience. He would be out on his ear in a real job in the real world – no privileged protection there.”
He does not seem to be very intelligent – certainly promoted way above his ability. Furthermore, his command of the English language abandoned him at a crucial, painful moment. As the speaker, how on earth can he now be respected by the house after that dismal performance (not the only one btw).The Right Honourable Gentleman is an embarrassment.
robertkknight says:
25 July, 2022 at 10:54 am
Roger @10:18
There was never a union between Scotland and N.Ireland.
I know. that doesn’t mean the Scottish parliament couldn’t pass an act stating that the union between Scotland and NI no longer exists and is null and void. It would be total constitutional mayhem. And not a great look for the UK state.
@ Roger
So you suggest making a “wicked point” about Northern Ireland (which appears to have been debunked already) by dancing on the head of a pin within UK constitutional legalese context presumably wouldn’t be ignored. Yet using the consistent 300 years of plainly obvious hard evidence of Union breaches is pointless.
But either way, which do you think would resonate most and gain traction with the Scottish electorate as a campaigning subject?
One thing I think the movement needs to do and that is to identify those amongst us who hate us, want to subjugate us.
Some, like one of my neighbours, an English Royal Navy pretty officer, make it easy. He flies a huge Union Jack from his garage. He is an easy to spot English colonialist. But there are others less visibly obvious.
It is, to use the Tory Government parlance, time we considered making Scotland a cold place for these hateful immigrants. They are not part of us, never will be. They come to agitate, to colonise. Civic inclusion, civic participation, civic integration is not in these people’s nature. Like the hate contorted Speaker of the HoC they come to colonise.
At all costs we must try to avoid the hatred of the Unionists of Northern Ireland who were planted in Ulster all those years ago. The current mass immigration of English to Scotland is designed to repeat that policy.
England must not be allowed to Balkanise Scotland.
@Dan
“So you suggest making a “wicked point” about Northern Ireland (which appears to have been debunked already) by dancing on the head of a pin within UK constitutional legalese context presumably wouldn’t be ignored. Yet using the consistent 300 years of plainly obvious hard evidence of Union breaches is pointless.”
People have been talking about breaches of the Act of Union for years – what good has it done? Has it galvinised the people? Has it led to a single concession from London? No. Why do you think that’s going to change?
As for the idea of repealling the union with NI, it wasn’t ‘debunked’. Moaning in corners of the internet – or speechifying in WM (I’m talking about the SNP, not Neale Hanvey)- does nothing. It will be ignored, always has been. You need to make life uncomfortable for the powers that be. Repealling the ct of union between Scotland and NI wouldn’t be some fine constitutional point – it would be an act of constitutional sabotage. You need to make a nuisance of yourself that can’t be ignored – and which will attract attention in England and abroad.
At the moment Scotland is a joke. It’s elected representatives jump up every few months to announce that ‘Scotland will not stand for..’ whatever the latest London outrage is – then sits back down again and stands for it. If Scotland were serious, it wouldn’t stand for this crap an would take to the streets – and not politely.
@Mark Boyle
So you’re saying protest movements achieve nothing? And obviously an SNP government in Holyrood and a majority of SNP MPs from Scotland in Westminster are achieving sfa either – so what do you suggest?
Luigi @ 11:01 am
“He does not seem to be very intelligent – certainly promoted way above his ability. Furthermore, his command of the English language abandoned him at a crucial, painful moment”
As if ‘command of the English language’ denotes intelligence? Some British ‘educationalists’ still believe that. Kinda reminds me o ma Scottish school days whan us bairns were deprived o oor ain mither tongue, telt tae anely spik anither fowk’s tongue, tae spik lik thay dae (i.e. to ‘mimic’ the colonizer accoridng to postcolonial theory). In colonialism the language of ‘a peoples’ education is not the language of their culture.
Wha gies a daw aboot thair Englis langage: thon gaes in ane lug an oot the ither, whill oor Scots langage comes fae oor verra saul. Scots is wha we are, tho we’re deprived o oor mither tung – which helps explain why peoples in self-determination conflict are always linguistically divided.
To Scots, Speaker Hoyle reflects not just an alien language, but also an alien culture and its ‘values’ all of which are imposed on Scots via an oppressive Cultural Hegemony. This is what is known as Cultural and Linguistic Imperialism, which is oppression – or in Scots, ‘Doun-Hauden’.
One of the first things any oppressed colonised people grasp on liberation is ‘their moribund culture and rusted tongue’ (Fanon) for that is who they are (and how they think, and view the world) and it is that which gives them their diversity, self-respect and special place in an international world of nations and peoples.
link to scotlandspeaks.com
The biggest barrier to second Scottish Independence referendum is not the LibLabCon, UK Government and Parliament, it’s Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP!
Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP is indirectly trying to ban the prospect of Scotland leaving Westminster rule!
The UK Supreme Court route is absolutely doing no favours, you should check out the FAQs from the UKSC website:
“Can the UKSC overrule the UK Parliament?
No. Unlike some Supreme Courts in other parts of the world, the UK Supreme Court does not have the power to ‘strike down’ legislation passed by the UK Parliament. It is the Court’s role to interpret the law and develop it where necessary, rather than formulate public policy.”
“Can the UKSC overrule Devolved Parliaments and Assemblies in other parts of the UK?
The UKSC can hear ‘devolution issues’, which include questions about whether a Bill or Act of Parliament, or any provision of a Bill or Act of Parliament, is within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament…”
link to supremecourt.uk
Not everyone knows the actual powers of the UK Supreme Court!
I’m literally done with politics, I’m switching off the news to let my mental health heal for now!
@Mac
““Can the UKSC overrule the UK Parliament?
No.”
That’s exactly what the ‘sovereignty of parliament’ means (See AV Dicey’s ‘Introduction to the Study of the Law of the Constitution – which is still the definitive text, the Supreme Court cites it).
All this supreme court BS comes from people thinking they are America, not the UK. Forge their ‘sue everybody’ legalese BS. It’s a different system, it won’t work here. The UK system is political, not legal.
@ Roger
I’m suggesting that maybe if Scotland is serious about returning to self-governance, it is time to stop talking and moaning about the numerous breaches of the Union’s terms, and actually act on the hard evidence the breaches provide.
Clearly what we have been doing since 2014 with the significant material changes in circumstance isn’t working or enough to progress the cause as polling shows.
Of course I admit the big problem with my suggestion is that Scotland needs to wake up to the fact it continues to elect a bunch of self-serving snowflake kittens that Self ID as patriotic lions…
Of course that doesn’t stop activists working away to highlight the various breaches of the Union’s terms, and also educating folk on Scotland’s extremely healthy resources to population ratio. But until their is actual political organisation willing to work together to create the clout required to act then it feels like herding cats to me, as most folks jist aren’t that intae politics as they are busy making ends meet or enjoying life.
Alf Baird @11:52
Of course, command of English doesn’t imply intelligence. I didn’t say that. However, as the speaker of the house, the guy failed on all counts. His choice of words betrayed a rather limited vocabulary IMO. Please understand, I’m not having a go at his strange accent (although I’m sure lots of posh tories in the house do find it offensive). No – just his choice of words under pressure. It was rather embarrassing to watch him get so flustered and trip over his own harsh tongue at times. Come back John Bercow!
@Dan
“most folks jist aren’t that intae politics as they are busy making ends meet or enjoying life.”
When was it ever different? So maybe it comes own to a few who are prepared to put the time and effort into? Christ started with only 12 – and one of them was a wrong un.
Roger says:
25 July, 2022 at 11:30 am
If Scotland were serious, it wouldn’t stand for this crap an would take to the streets – and not politely.
Roger you strike me as somebody scunnered of Scotland’s politicians, and I honestly can’t blame you. They are the ones failing to act, time after time, whenever Scotland gets shafted.
What’s different this time? One word answer; SALVO.
SALVO is reason it’s going to be different.
As far as I know, I believe it has been the digitisation of Auld Scotland’s Records which has made scanning through these papers and documents, and important principles lost or hidden away in obscure places have suddenly become much easier to find and research, and that is exactly what SALVO has been doing.
We are rediscovering Scotland’s pre-Union powers and protocols which haven’t seen the light of day for centuries.
The Claim of Right is the big one, (not it’s rediscovery which was never in question), but laws and protocols which enhance and strengthen the Claim of Right, such as the “prenuptial”agreement that the Treaty of Union had to respect the Claim of Right or there was no Union.
There are other Laws still on the old statute that denying or undermining Scotland’s Constitutional Rights was considered Treason. As far as I can gather, it’s still on the books.
Frankly, I think Holyrood, the Devolved Scottish “Government” and the 1998 Scotland Act are all of them, living on borrowed time, because they are all constructs of Westminster Government. They are all channeling Westminster’s false hold over Scotland’s popular Sovereignty.
When SALVO puts those Constitutional Rights and Laws into the hands of a recalled “Convention of the Estates”, and that body secures Legal Personality, which it will, then Scotland will have it’s sovereign voice back, and the threadbare Treaty of Union is almost certainly doomed.
In your own words Roger, for the first time in 315 years, I think Scotland is serious.
(Well… maybe not the “first” time in all 315 years. I’m sure the Jacobites would see that as an insult. And there were many other patriots and others too).
So, for the first time in “modern” history, I think Scotland is about to get serious.
Totally O/T but for everyone who needs a laugh, look at the video clip on The Ghost of Wings over Scotland twitter – some lads and their T-shirts. I’ve watched it several times – medicine for the soul!!
To know your enemy, you must become your enemy, ie get inside its head.
There is nothing more unsettling than the doppelgaenger.
Some of the most effective leaders have been proficient in the culture of the opponent.
The good leader, like the skilled lion moving downwind, stalks softly, then at the opportune moment, goes in for the kill.
I did think that might be Sturgeon’s ploy.
I now think she lacks the focus and concentration to stalk and, importantly, the stamina to kill.
@Breeks
I don’t know much about this SALVO thing, but it’s something new, something that hasn’t been tried before, so I’d give it a chance – but remember that WM can ignore or legislate over it. In fact, under the doctrine of ‘implied repeal’, if there’s anything in it that is contradicted by current UK, it could be argued to have been repealled by implication. So it’s no longer valid.
But fair play to you for trying, and maybe there’s something in it. IDK
*anything in it that is contradicted by current UK law…
(My keyboard is dying)
@ Roger at 12.38: have you watched that video of Sara Salyers explaining our Constitution? A link to it was posted by Dan at 9.32pm. on 23rd July btl “A Little Respect”. Listen from 7 minutes up to 14 minutes for the essentials.
“Repealed by implication”? That is an argument I suppose but need we really shy away from what the Unionists will say? No- we must inform all our family, friends and acquaintances of what exists.
@Sarah
TBH, I just don’t think any of this legal stuff will work – and if it looked like working, WM would just amend the legislation in question so it wouldn’t work.
I don’t blame people for trying a legal route, just don’t believe in it. It MIGHT work if it had the establishment behind it, but that’s the exact opposite of this situation. The prorougement case worked because it was a dispute between two sides of the English establishment – and because it could be argued that it infringed Parliamentary sovereignty.
Roger. 12:38
The plain fact that ScotNats desire the dissolution of the UK sovereign state is enough to set its supporters, local and international, against anything nationalists might confect.
The Union may well end «in extremis», not by the soporific medium of legal rhetoricians.
The judicious application of naked force, supplemented by bribery, got Scotland into England’s sphere in the 18th century.
«Force», of an ad hoc variety, may be needed in the the 21st to effect the opposite.
The UK kitchen is destined to become hot. If we want freedom it may need to become torrid.
@Ottomanboi
Yep, my thoughts too, more or less – everything up to – but NOT including – violence.
Effective protests that cause inconvenience (the entire establishment will condemn it, probably the SNP more than anybody else) best if it was in England.
And a political strategy designed to cause as much trouble as possible for the UK state – and be Machiavellian about it.
All you need to know is that the people are sovereign in Scotland, as expressed in the Claim of Right. That sovereignty has been ignored but it is real and is written into the Treaty of Union. It’s our country.
That’s the sort of idea that will go viral when the mass demonstrations start. And it’ll sit comfortably alongside other simple and equally potent ideas relating to abject poverty in a country that is drowning in resources.
It’s likely that the mass demonstrations, when they begin, will start off protesting against inflation, fuel, cost of living, etc. The independence movement needs to be ready to channel and direct all that energy in the right direction. And that’s where Salvo comes in.
If you support independence and are sick of the chatter and political games, sign up for Salvo and make yourself available so that when the time comes you can be mobilised and do something that might actually make a difference.
@sarah –
Serious Q:
This material that Sara Salyers has been explaining via SALVO – did Alex Salmond ever raise it, in WM/Scottish Parliament or anywhere else? He’s known for his knowledge of historical/constitutional detail so I can’t imagine why he didn’t cite it previously.
Neale And kenny.
Well done to Neale and kenny, whom stood up for our constitution here in Scotland.
It might not say it on the British tin lid, but England is looking more and more like a out of date colonial masters template, where it refuses the choice of freedom to those it enslaved years ago.
It is interesting that the parliament down south is the holder of the treaty of the union as its protector.
There are many different angles and loopholes to this treaty,
May I suggest For Neale and kenny along with Salvo, SSRG and Alba, that they should be picking the bones clean of this treaty before and after it was signed,
1: IF, As during my research over many years indicates. Not all Scots Entered the treaty of the Union, There is a distinctly distinguishing difference between the parliament of Scotland known as the ( the Three Estates) in 1707 that was not sovereign in Scotland.
And the Scots that WERE Sovereign in 1707,
The English Parliament recognised the Scots were Sovereign and apart as a collective nation group from the Three Estates,
when it held a debate in the English Parliament 1706/07 on wether to give the Scots a vote to join the Treaty of the Union.
The results and outcome from that English Parliament debate decided not to put the Vote to the Sovereign Scots. ( see: UK Parliament site, 2022)
There is a presumption by many mainly, perhaps British historians to take the word [ Scots ] when the referring of the Treaty, to mean ALL Scots.
However as the UK Parliament site 2022 states, the English Parliament did not include ALL Scots. Even although they were aware of voting rights and spoke of an elective vote for the Sovereign Scots, as separate entity group, this was decided against.
So which Scots officially entered into the Treaty of the Union in 1707?
The Three Estates certainly did, the Treaty of the Union s holds their Signature’s and Seals.
However there are no signature’s or representive X , any where on that Treaty of Union of a Sovereign Scot.
The Tree Estates ( not Sovereign over Scots) and the English Parliament as a real historical event and fact acted upon this by ratifying the Scots ” Claim of Right ” as a separate nation from the Then Three Estates into the International Treaty of the Union which the British Parliament claims to be protector of the union.
And indeed it is.
It is protector of a union between the two parliaments of Scotland and England union, and a monarchy crown perhaps.
But it has no validity as to over the remaining Sovereign Scots nation it left out of the treaty of the Union.
A good lawyer or solicitor would be more than capable of tearing this pseudo treaty apart, that is SUPPOSED to include ALL Scots to pieces, but did not.
And one wonders why no SNP that has a law background has seen the loop hole and has done this,?
Where do the Sovereign Scots nation stand now, that were not asked to vote by deliberation of two parliaments to join the Treaty of the in 1707 ?
There are many other loop holes in the International Treaty of the union from 1707.
What we are actually politically fighting for, is to re-instate our three estates and separate it from the Treaty of the union….. yes?
Just trying to gain some clarification here.
As it was only the Three Estates that signed up to the 1707 Treaty of the union, as there was not then or now, a single signature or X from the rest of the Scots on the Treaty of the union.
The Tree Estates invested in themselves the right to govern Sovereign Scots, they were not elected by Scots as a group or Sovereign nation..
The Three Estates in 1707 did not own the sovereign nation nor Scotland in 1707,
the Scottish Parliament ( three estates ) were not a Sovereign entity in or over all Scotland or Scots when they acted in 1707.
Did they hold the legal right to enter into a treaty,?
This whole treaty of the union is full of loop holes.
Barely one One year had passed after agreeing Scots law would remain independent and remain as separate to Scotland from English law in the Treaty of the union, England changed the Scots Law of Treason.
Ending the treaty of the union.
When you think about all the brave men and women frpm every corner of the world who, in the past, put their lives on the line to help their nations achieve freedom from England and the british empire I don’t think it’s asking too much for our pro independence politicians to put their political lives on the line by breaking Westminster’s anti-Scottish rules and laws.
The people can do the same. A simple start for all of us would be to boycott all britnat media and refuse to pay the bbc licence fee.
It’s not just about Boris – Boris is going now, and will be replaced by some new Boris.
It’s not just about the Tories either – electing a ‘Labour’ government means nothing anymore. Read this about that neoBlairite PS Starmer:
“Starmer indicates he no longer favours bringing rail companies back into public ownership
When Keir Starmer was running for the Labour leadership after the 2019 general election, he issued 10 pledges which included: “Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water.” He has been in retreat from these every since ”
The Guardian
They are all Tories – and teacherous with it.
Ian Brotherhood says:
25 July, 2022 at 1:35 pm
@sarah –
Serious Q:
This material that Sara Salyers has been explaining via SALVO – did Alex Salmond ever raise it, in WM/Scottish Parliament or anywhere else?
Can’t give that a satisfactory answer, but I’m reasonably sure that Sara and Alex were doing events together for a bit… I think it was Wee ALBA book tour, but not 100% sure.
I also recall Alex Salmond launching ALBA, and talking about the Community of the Realm described in the Declaration of Arbroath, which at the time seemed refreshingly “constitutional”.
@ Ian Brotherhood at 1.35 “has Alex Salmond said anything” re Salvo’s constitutional information.
Well, it is fairly new – the documents were only put together in one place in 2008 and there has been no academic publication of research etc per Sara Salyers. So I imagine that Alex did not know about it until Sara started sharing the information.
As Breeks says, Alex and Sara have shared platforms – in fact it was Sara’s speech at the first Alba party conference last year that launched the matter into the public domain.
Alex now talks about there needing to be public demonstrations in support of the Claim of Right so I think that suggests that he is looking at the Convention/Community/Assembly of the people as a lever.
@Breeks & Sarah –
Cheers aplenty.
😉
I may be accused of lazyness, Google is your friend etc. but can some kind soul post a link(s) to the SALVO thing?
Cheers
link to salvo.scot
😉
@robertkknight: Dan posted a link to the video of Sara explaining very clearly about the Constitution – it was btl of the previous post “A Little Respect” at 9.32 p.m. on 23rd July.
If you are looking to sign Salvo’s Declaration it is on the Salvo.scot website where it says “Join” at the top. Sorry but I can’t yet do links.
ROGER 1:17
Using the system against itself is the best option. That requires the force of political will, the determination to achieve the purpose. The readiness to go against grain.
Violence may occur but let it be the violence of the system. Shut up or get out is an indicator of the frustration that might turn toxic.
The palpable anger of WM , against those that won’t toe the royal line, as demonstrated so eloquently by Sir Hoyle, is indeed the Achilles heal of the British establishment. The question is – does the SNP have the bottle to regularly disrupt the process, now that the battle has begun The ball is in the their court now. Doing nothing is no longer an option. Fight or die. The jury’s out. At least take the gloves off.
“Ottomanboi says:
25 July, 2022 at 4:28 pm
ROGER 1:17
Using the system against itself is the best option. That requires the force of political will, the determination to achieve the purpose. The readiness to go against grain.
Violence may occur but let it be the violence of the system. Shut up or get out is an indicator of the frustration that might turn toxic.”
I have all sorts of personal reasons to be against violence, but here’s a political one that might persuade people why it’s a bad idea. The British state would love it. Scottish nationalism could be written off as terrorism and policed by MI5 – and the British Army if necessary. It would kill politics. I can hear some smug future Tory PM now – “There will be no independence referendum because there can be no question of giving in to the demands of terrorists”.
Politically it would be totally reactionary. It would justify all sorts of emergency legislation against it. The SNP would end up spending more time condemning it than doing anything else – so as not to be contaminated electorally by it. You also might see the emergence (perhaps ‘encouraged’ by state agents) of some sort of Loyalist UDA style counter-violence. (Read Gen Kitson’s ‘Low Intensity Operations’) Then England could tell the usual story of how its troops are only there to keep the peace and to stop the natives killing each other. In other words, it could easily lead to the real Ulsterisation of Scottish politics.
But you are right. Frustration might, possibly, lead some hot heads to try something like that – that’s EXACTLY why there needs to be some outlet for the frustration, something more than pointless marches and speeches.
The party of spineless and gutless treacherous b*stards (SNP) finger pointing at Westminster again.
Sturgeon the betrayer has sold Scotland out and is quite happy to govern Scotland within this rancid union, both she and her Three Wise Monkeys (MSPs MPs) don’t give a toss about Scots.
Eight years and countless mandates wasted, due to this SNP government only a mug would vote for this lot. Vote Alba at every turn till we boot Sturgeon and her party out.
There are a number of methods used that will never take us in Scotland anywhere near violence.
As some are stating this is what the Brit nat Government are itching and waiting for, A REASON to attack and Control through force, to Subdue, to create another war on innocent people under colonialism.
Although some will attempt to instigate this and talk it up, subliminal messages, in Scotland through the propaganda media outlets and social media, this must never come to pass for the well being of all people living in Scotland.
There are other alternatives which I will avoid mentioning as it is to early,
No point in in given your ammo or political weapons away like boris and biden.
Roger says: at 12:27 pm
“When was it ever different? So maybe it comes (d)own to a few who are prepared to put the time and effort into? Christ started with only 12 – and one of them was a wrong un.”
Well that’s kind of my thoughts. You mention legal aspects only getting purchase if the UK establishment deems it necessary to take them on, well likewise trying to get pro-Indy campaigning initiatives purchase with the “establishment” of the SNP and their tone policed compliant YES groups is to all intents and purposes the same.
Alf Baird has described this situation well and often enough.
It would seem relying on a majority of the current relatively comfortably off “pro-Indy” political class to move things forward risks us simply expiring through old age or death through excessive carrot consumption.
Down in England (with iirc a solitary trip to Scotland to project onto Edinburgh Castle crag) campaigning group Led By Donkeys have been on the go for long enough, yet up here there is little if any similar nation wide initiative.
Off the back of observing what they were up to I did a bit of research into the technicalities of projecting images as a campaigning tool, but it was ridiculously difficult to get any engagement or support for progressing with what is a proven concept of reaching a wider audience. And it would have been an especially useful medium during the “covid years”… sigh
We have the likes of Colin Dunn aka IndyPosterBoy who has produced an incredible range of pro-Indy material over the years, some of which could be used as is, or tweaked to suit as he is a decent sort and has made a recent reappearance after taking a break.
link to indyposterboy.scot
We also have some very thoughtful and articulate folk that could surely come up with some decent short and concise pro-Indy messages suitable for projecting that would resonate with the electorate.
So years down the line I will again float the idea of forming a group of folk to take this campaigning initiative on, as it’s surely needed now more than ever.
@Doug says: 25 July, 2022 at 2:22 pm
“When you think about all the brave men and women frpm every corner of the world who, in the past, put their lives on the line to help their nations achieve freedom from England and the british empire I don’t think it’s asking too much for our pro independence politicians to put their political lives on the line by breaking Westminster’s anti-Scottish rules and laws.
The people can do the same. A simple start for all of us would be to boycott all britnat media and refuse to pay the bbc licence fee.”
Wow Doug, strong stuff. Glad I was sitting down before I read it.
Here’s another wee idea. Clamp your hands to yer heid to stop the top of it blowing off.
GET RID OF YER FUCKING TELLIE. THEN YOU WON’T NEED A LICENCE. STOP PAYING FOR SOMETHING YOU DISAPPROVE OF.
Naw, ye’re right. Sacrifice your tellie in pursuit of freedom? It’ll never fly. Everybody back into their manacles.
@James Che 5:35pm
I agree that violence is not the answer. Another example today of the MSM treating the same situation differently. The story of mass resignations in the NHS. BBC 1 on network did a report on critical staffing levels in England. Exactly the same situation in Scotland exists. Nothing on BBC Scotland. Why?. The BBC network don’t want a Tory Government I understand that. So why are they not balanced on Scotland?. They are keeping the Woke Scot Gov in power by ignoring the state of play here. They threw in the wee fish of Gupta, already reported. I am starting to record this difference and provide the evidence to Ofcom. My wee contribution to the Independence movement. I have voted Alba twice now. But haven’t heard if they are putting candidates for the next GE other than Neale and Kenny.
@Hatuey says:25 July, 2022 at 1:20 pm
“All you need to know is that the people are sovereign in Scotland, as expressed in the Claim of Right. That sovereignty has been ignored but it is real and is written into the Treaty of Union. It’s our country.
That’s the sort of idea that will go viral when the mass demonstrations start. And it’ll sit comfortably alongside other simple and equally potent ideas relating to abject poverty in a country that is drowning in resources.”
And how true that is, even if it is Hatuey writing it. Of course, the big jump between my sovereignty and my share of the loot has been left out. Maybes, to Hatuey, it is no big jump at all.
Still, it would help if he could spell it out for us under-achievers who don’t have his advantages.
Another question exercising me is how Hatuey will respond to me if I choose to exercise my sovereignty to claim his Edinburgh pad. I am sick of East Kilbride and fancy a move up-market. Seems to me these swanky toffs in Auld Reekie need to be taught where true sovereignty lies.
You cool with that Hatuey?
Doug says:
25 July, 2022 at 2:22 pm
A simple start for all of us would be to boycott all britnat media and refuse to pay the bbc licence fee.
A lot of people aren’t bothering to pay it anyway (back in 2015 they admitted no one had been prosecuted for licence evasion for five years) – that’s why the government’s intending scrapping the licence and paying for it either via direct taxation or telling the corporation to do adverts.
I remember when Fergus McCann the Bunnit Man was the owner of the East End Cheek of the same arse. Fans and locals alike complained building work on Smelltink Stadium had effectively cut off their TV viewing.
Always one to try to turn and turn a minus into a PR plus, McCann readily agreed to pay generous compensation for the lost viewing time – all they had to do to receive their cheque was come down to the club with their up-to-date TV licence. The rumour is only about five people ever did.
If the BBC didn’t give so many of its bosses and “stars” such outrageous fees, it wouldn’t be in any money troubles in the first place, but that’s another topic entirely …
“Doug says:
25 July, 2022 at 2:22 pm
A simple start for all of us would be to boycott all britnat media and refuse to pay the bbc licence fee.”
Some of us have been implementing this same boycott of all britnat media including tv for years now. It isnt painful, and the constant threats of tv licence ‘investigations’ go in the recycling bin unopened. Once you stop buying the papers/mags and get rid of that annoying box with its crap shows and canned laughter, you wonder why you ever bothered with it. So easy and a protest everyone can make.
More suggestion, anyone, for further simple protests and stands one can take to get the message across that the union is dead for us Scots? Apart from stopping direct debits to the energy companies, and similar.
This material that Sara Salyers has been explaining via SALVO – did Alex Salmond ever raise it, in WM/Scottish Parliament or anywhere else? He’s known for his knowledge of historical/constitutional detail so I can’t imagine why he didn’t cite it previously.
It’s just possible of course that its because Alex Salmond thinks “cunning plans for indy”, however heartfelt those punting them are, won’t produce results in the same timescale?
It would seem odd that someone with Alex’s renowned knowledge and background in parliamentary procedures and (presumably?) constitutional matters, chose not to pursue a novel route to indy without a referendum, or plebiscite or recourse to conventional political parties, but established a new political party to challenge both the britnats AND the SNP.
Perhaps he’s just old fashioned, and horrified by what the SNP has become and what it tried to do to him, so he wants pay back, and thinks a new party is the surest way of helping achieve indy in the short to medium term.
Isn’t the truth that if a political operator of Alex Salmond’s experience and nowse had thought “novel routes” to indy were the best path he’d have been leading the charge and making them central to his purpose, and leading the movement to by pass conventional parties and politics?
The fact he isn’t ought to give those attracted to such policies pause for thought.
@Fionan 8:27pm
A very fair analysis and worthy of commendation. I choose to pay the licence fee so I can see what they are up to. I wrote in 2014 that Scotland would never be an Independent Country as long as the BBC had control of news and opinion. I stand by that statement. Nothing has changed. This time with a quarter of a million dropping off the licence fee UK wide in the last year we are in a different position. And they are now vulnerable to evidence. So we started today it’s a long game but I don’t see an Independence vote anytime soon. Because Holyrood don’t want it.
@Andy Ellis 8:44pm
Agreed if they was a smart constitutional play Salmond would have found it. It is the hard road for me. It was ever thus for the Independence movement. But I try not to be critical of Claim of Rights or any novel approach. I am listening, prove the case. But I exclude violence and weapons in. It’s not needed.
@Andy Ellis says:25 July, 2022 at 8:44 pm
Good post.
Latest “cunning plan” is to leverage the understandable unhappiness with the post-Covid and ongoing-war cost of living crisis into a justification for Indy.
This effort blithely ignores the world-wide nature of this crisis, with countries as diverse as New Zealand, Thailand, Italy and Canada all under its cosh.
In fact, both Thailand and Italy close to breaking down completely.
@ George Ferguson says: 25 July, 2022 at 9:01 pm
“I try not to be critical of Claim of Rights or any novel approach”
That’s a commendable attitude, George, but I see a fundamental issue with the Claim of Rights approach. It starts with the unspoken assumption that all Scots support Indy, and thus have only to claim their sovereign rights in order to break free.
But at least half of Scots don’t support Indy, maybes more, and their sovereign rights to remain in the UK are of equal weight in any rational analysis.
So it’s a stalemate.
“There’s more than one way to skin a cat”.
That phrase might mean nothing to some people.
Andy Ellis says:
25 July, 2022 at 8:44 pm
It would seem odd that someone with Alex’s renowned knowledge and background in parliamentary procedures and (presumably?) constitutional matters, chose not to pursue a novel route to indy without a referendum, or plebiscite or recourse to conventional political parties, but established a new political party to challenge both the britnats AND the SNP.
Perhaps he’s just old fashioned, and horrified by what the SNP has become and what it tried to do to him, so he wants pay back, and thinks a new party is the surest way of helping achieve indy in the short to medium term.
He thought that he still had a name to conjour with, and failed to take into account how fickle Scots – especially Lowlanders – are in their loyalty, or rather he made the mistake of equating lazy brand name loyalty to any sort of loyalty to himself. The spectacularly awful campaign for Alba’s first electoral test didn’t help, but it wasn’t as if the competition was that much better.
Some have said the trial and subsequent inquiry did him too much damage. I’m not so sure. I’ve saw all too often over the decades politicians in Scotland commit what would be career ending actions down south but up here the natives voted them back in all the same. His big mistake was – like Blair – taking too much time away from active politics for his money making media interests and then thinking he could simply waltz back when in the public perception he’d “retired”. Politics is like sport, once you’ve retired people don’t want you attempting to make a comeback, once you take the exit flap, you don’t get back into the circus tent.
Salvo’s Sara Salyers gave a speech at the first Alba Party conference about the truth of Scotland’s Constitution. She explained that the necessary documents were only made available in one place for people to study them in 2008.
Since Sara’s first speech Alex Salmond has often mentioned the need for Citizens Assemblies to force our politicians to act. So yes I would say that Mr Salmond understands the power of the Salvo work.
@John Main 9:44pm
I don’t disagree with your analysis. Stu himself has reported a flat lining of support for Independence at 47% for many years. But equally that means there is a large proportion of the Scottish population unserved in their aspirations. And that’s not good either. Holyrood has failed both sides of the argument. A diminished public service provision in Scotland. And seemingly no solution. Except getting rid of the controlling power in Scotland through the ballot box. At least we can agree on the need for basic competence on public service provision.
@ Dan at 5.37: I noticed Alba in Glasgow had a Lead by Donkeys-type display van the other day showing Johnson saying that countries have a right to choose. Passers-by were interviewed and they said it was hypocrisy by Johnson.
So Alba have taken the idea up. But I agree we need it to be the Yes movement doing it, and on a big scale.
John. The Claim Of Right. Establishes Scotland’s right to decide its future. Regardless of what side you fall on, it is only stating it’s our right to choose.
Right now WM is taking that choice away from us. So that is a breach of the claim of right.
The whole debate right now is around who decides Scotland’s future. WM or the peoples elected representatives. It’s not at the substance stage.
No democrat can argue that the people must be stopped from even voting on Scotland’s future.
@ George Ferguson says: 25 July, 2022 at 10:08 pm
“At least we can agree on the need for basic competence on public service provision”
Indeed we can.
Fascinating to think that in the 8 years that NS has been FM, evidence of some basic competence only ever had to grow support for Indy by around 1% Per Annum, to make the next Indy Ref a shoe-in for Yes.
Quite hard for me to understand why those additional 20,000 votes Per Annum (approximately) were so beyond her reach.
But no point living in the past.
@ Big Jock says:25 July, 2022 at 10:14 pm
Agreed.
My perception is that some posters have short-circuited the process of making a decision and jumped straight to concluding that the Claim Of Right means Indy.
But as some people are pointing out, just having the right to make a decision on Scotland’s future doesn’t remove the overwhelming necessity to have to justify that the decision should be Yes.
There are justifications that will resonate with the undecided and hostile, and hence get to the 50% +1 mark. A solid track record of competence in government would have been a good one – sadly now squandered by the SNP.
A major justification has to be a plausible, facts-based, independently audited case for an Independent Scotland as a country of prosperous Scots. Not some nonsense where we all own and drive Ferraris, but a believable place with full employment, good wages, affordable housing and transport, good public services, healthcare, etc. etc.
That, at least, is still there to be played for. Hence my slogan: show us the money.
@John Main 10:28pm
I reminded of a favourite musical of mine. And the message is “time to say goodbye” Nicola are you listening?. In corporate life most CEOs realise that 5 years in tenure is the optimum. In public life they hing on beyond the point of decent service. I have a stake in public service provision and the SNHS is falling apart. The next wave of FY1s starts in early August. And Humzas solution is dependent on them. Crudely called cannon fodder by the MSM these young people are the future of Scotland whatever they decide to do eventually. We should support them. I think Humzas solution is undeliverable. A basic lack of understanding from someone that gets 13 weeks holiday a year.
The good news is Boris regrets resigning and so far over 10,000 Tory Party members
have signed a petition in hope that he can stay! Really!
Just another example of the Grand Canyon size difference between the thought process between the English and the Scots.
Young guy at my work hates Sturgeon,but likes Kate Forbes. Said he would vote for indy if someone like her was in charge.
I think the idea has some merit, even if she is quite low key. Maybe that’s what we need, who knows?
Lol @ John Main seeing a “fundamental issue” with the claim of right approach.
Okay hun, we’ll call it off… I mean, if it’s fundamental an’ all.
Meanwhile, No-Mark Boyle tells us politics is like sport and people don’t like comebacks… the wider point he is making is that Salmond should fuck off and stay fucked off.
We used to get a much better class of unionist troll in here.
I suppose I better go tell Tiger and Alex it’s time to throw in the towels.
There are re-runs of the original Star Trek on the Horror Channel (digitally cleaned up too) – it’s been so long you forget the episodes; the planet with the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Nazis, the galactic loony bin and the chick with green skin – then there is the one with the parallel dimension where good and evil are reversed.
– makes you wonder what Scotland would be like in an “evil twin” universe?
In a Dark/ Mirror/ Parallel Universe, an “EVIL NIKKI” (with a little goatee) was doing the following
– arranging for another INDYREF to be organised and run by an INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL BODY, sourced from the UN and major powers, principally USA and EU, and policed by international CORPORATE FRAUD EXPERTS.
– declaring all subsequent elections to be “PLEBESCITES”
– reform VOTING RULES to reflect international norms re: ind1g3nous and s3ttl3r peoples
– off to the side, preparing parallel INSTITUTIONS to take over once independent
– having well-prepared, ready to go “boil in the bag” solutions for the CURRENCY, central bank and anything else we need
– use “CONSTITUTIONAL LAWFARE” regarding the sovereignty question and treaty of union; and supporting anyone who would independently attempt these attacks
– declaring the intention to create a NATIONAL ENERGY MONOPOLY (oil and renewables) modelled on statoil
– declaring the intention for serious LAND REFORM, and to ban foreign ownership
– generally REFUSE TO CO-OPERATE with westminster about anything
– being prepared for the multipart conflict which independence will be; WARGAMING move and countermove, to foil the inevitable dirty tricks and Kitson-schtick
– making the necessary FOREIGN ALLIANCES needed to counterbalance the power imbalance with London; you want the EU and the USA (most of all) on your side, or at least staying neutral, acting as an impartial referee
– prepare separate, ACCURATE ACCOUNTS for Scotland, trashing GERS
– prepare a detailed HISTORICAL accounts, to be used in a claim for REPARATIONS
– adopt an ANY/MANY approach to independence and not this broken, doomed to failure “gold standard” called Section 30, which has no actual legal requirement
– have a NEGOTIATION TEAM AND STRATEGY ready for when independence talks begin (- as the other side will -really- try to screw us)
– actively ATTACK THE UNION AND ITS BLOODY HISTORY; the british empire, the slaughter and pillage at every opportunity should never be forgotten; deliberately provoke and attack the unionists; shame them
– use the DEC0L0NISATION framework of the UN to further our cause
– download and fill-in the application form for EFTA
– create faster TRANSPORT LINKS direct to the continent and Ireland, so we are not dependent on cross border traffic
– fix the FERRIES
– declaring “MEN HAVE PENISES, WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS, BIOLOGICAL SEX IS IMMUTABLE, PHYSICAL REALITY IS NOT A LITERARY DISCOURSE …”
aren’t you glad you live in the “Good Universe” and not the “Evil Universe” where such horrors could take place?
Makes me wonder exactly which universe we are in.
Also, that “controversial” question/hypothesis – “Nikki is an enemy agent, working for the other team!” – look at it this way : if she was guilty, then what she would have done since 2016, is – exactly what she did do, anyway. So the question is pointless, i.e. it comes down to motive – and whether it is cowardice, conviction or being compromised – no one can ever know, and it makes no operational difference. The woman has to go. I think this is step 0, for whatever great plans you have while she is still at the helm she can always frustrate you.
Catching up with some of the comments.
My thoughts..
Claim of Right applies to Scots but Scotland entered into a new state when it was forced to join the Union & became the UK state. Indy needs to find a way out of that new state that was created. The Claim of Right on who governs us can easily be answered by WM ‘Well, you have the right to Holyrood elections & an elected administrator to govern don’t you? So what’s your problem?’ seems the obvious answer to that.
English & NI, yes, exactly. It’s not the fluffy cuddly *I’ll put the kettle on – all welcome & we’ll all live happily ever after’ some like to peddle in their heads that’s full of candyfloss & unicorns. Push comes to shove it’s classic ‘..you can take the girl out of..’ revert to type.
It’s colonial, it’s superior, it’s flegs everywhere & it’s English Nationalism on steroids & the Scots are a whinging bunch of inbreds who need to stop talking stupid, stop dressing stupid & ban those stupid road signs no one reads’ mentality. The military is a good training ground to instill the Queen & country & blood brother nonsense. Ulster Part Deux. This was reflected in George Square on the 19th 2014 & is witnessed in Westminster every day since. It’s the elephant in the room.
Imagine, if by some miracle, we do eventually get *permission* from somewhere for indyref2 – do we continue with the failed recipe & lose one days right to excercise our right to self determination because Sturgeon & some airheads not living in the real world wants to be seen to please everyone but the Scots? It’s far too big a deal to have it decided for us by some poppy laden knuckle dragging UKippers, imo. As discussed a few weeks ago. We’d have ONE DAY & it’s OUR constitutional matter. It’s not Timothy fae next door tub thumping English Nationalism cause we’ve invited him to.
Starmer: establishment lackey. They all are. Whenever Labour get into power they shit themselves & revert to Tory in fear of startling the horses. They’re an embarrassment to their founding fathers & should change their name.
Westminster: Scotland needs to make a statement removing themselves completely. NOT sitting there like muppets polishing their arses on the leather.
The English always wins & that place has set itself up to do just that. There’s zero point being there as they make clear when they all bolt from the chamber when SNP speak. It’s beyond embarrassing now & infuriating to know we put those feckwits there with numerous mandates they’ve just squandered while looking around for ways to break their own mandates i.e ‘Stop Brexit’ WTF? Eh? & fast enough to go to court on that matter to! Sturgeon posing with war criminals for selfies to overturn a democratic vote & revelling in her moment on stage that’d nullify her own mandate. FFS *facepalm emoji*
Why oh why do her minions still think this imposter will ever deliver indyref2 far less negotiate any exit beneficial to Scotland in the event it ever happened. It’d be Smith Commission all over again & we all know how she folded fae day 1!
Confused & Geri . Excellent posts muchachos , but they * should * be in reverse order ….
Geri’s describes where we’re at . Confused’s where we should be ; where we would be if we had a leader worthy of the title and not a permanently adolescent * Uni * hustler who thinks the complex and urgent question of restoring Scotland’s status as an Independent Nation is ALL ABOUT HER . Her * journey * , her * Feminism * , her LGBZZZzzz advocacy – like life is just one big X Factor competition .Omitting the * back-story * of her failed Legal career . Natch .
Scotland’s Got Talent . Alas , none of it is present in the dancing monkeys and performing seals that comprise the current crop of SNP * hopefuls *
@Hatuey says:26 July, 2022 at 12:39 am
A bunch of pathetic insults … Same old, same old.
Tell you what Hatuey. As Wings BTL self-professed “over-achiever”, why don’t you spell out your sure-fire, dead-cert, recipe for Independence in small words the rest of us can understand.
And dinna fash aboot giving away your precious secret route to Indy to “Unionist Trolls”.
Like the majority of your concepts, they have no real existence ootside o yer heid.
The despicable thing is..the SNP have had numerous opportunities to respond in a similar manner over the past 7 years. Did nothing apart from a token gesture 1 day walk out. They never ask for respect, they never call for order when they are being shouted down, they never take the speaker to task. There supine passive compliance is degrading and self defeating to an indy movement that needs people to Stand Up and feckin do something purposeful. Cowards
Yes, good comments.
@confused it’s worth pointing out that EFTA membership would guarantee us access to UK markets on the same terms as other EU countries. Providing the UK, or whatever it calls itself after we leave, has a trade arrangement with the EU, we’d be guaranteed the same terms and access.
@geri by ditching Westminster we’d be ditching Holyrood too. Holyrood is the administrative arm of Westminster rule in Scotland and anyone that thinks or ever thought otherwise is a victim of deception. Holyrood literally has no power, and that was made official with the Supreme Court ruling on Sewel — on both reserved and devolved matters, London rules; all Holyrood has is responsibility over a budget set by London.
When Scotland becomes independent and we refashion our constitution, the Claim of Right will be at the heart of it. That is to say, people, and the inalienable sovereignty of the people, will be at the heart of the new Scotland.
And it’s the inalienable part of the CoR that matters and the part they don’t like. It’s the part that makes Scottish people all-powerful and free — and nothing that anyone ever says in any Court or document can negate or novate the inalienable sovereignty of the Scottish people — even if they don’t know it themselves.
Hatuey says:
26 July, 2022 at 12:39 am
Meanwhile, No-Mark Boyle tells us politics is like sport and people don’t like comebacks… the wider point he is making is that Salmond should fuck off and stay fucked off.
No, that was not the wider point I was making, back to the remedial English interpretation classes and potty training for you.
Interesting that people like Ellis and Union Jack John think I’m required to provide them with timescales and other information as they deride everyone and everything on here that is remotely positive about independence. Where does that sense of entitlement come from? Upbringing?
It might have escaped their notice that nobody can provide a timescale on anything right now. I can relate to a unionist wanting to know when the Union will end, just as a condemned man might want to know how long he has, but you overestimate my powers of foresight if you think I can tell you.
I could sit here all day demanding timescales from unionists on a multitude of things. We played this game before back in the run up to 2014, with independence supporters expected to provide detail on everything and Unionists guaranteeing more powers, EU membership, and all sorts of betterness and togetherness.
I’m bored with the Unionists and their Union. We should commit to ignoring them as we take back control of our country.
No-Mark, that was exactly the point you made and now that you have made it you can’t unmake it which is unfortunate for you. Anyone can scroll back and confirm my interpretation.
Some sympathy with Mark Boyle’s interpretation/ frustration with the objective of such shenanigans so hoping Alba is in tight with Salvo and the idea is not only to catch the speaker for defamation but also to impeach the man in event the stalemate continues..
ie setting aside any contemporaneous sectarianism, if the Claim of Right does indeed reinforce the concept of a Sovereign Scot then, by extension, the UK has an unwritten constitutional obligation to respect and protect that sovereignty (above all) and consequently, the disrespect directed at the Alba duo must constitute a potential impeachable offence 🙂
That said, an even more useful consequence of bringing the SALVO research to the fore will be greater appreciation of the UK government obligation to protect the Sovereign Scot (despite ourselves?!) because it risks putting the electoral commission in a tricky catch 22 when deciding the voting franchise for indyref2 if it is to avoid committing treason by accident*
Specifically the UKSC may need to answer the following strictly in accordance with the claim of right (both for deciding who can vote and substantiating that decision during the (any) referendum itself) :
a) Are non resident Scots Sovereign
b) Can resident English (new Scots) be sovereign
c) If not a, can b be sovereign over a
d) If a and b, can non resident new Scots become sovereign
e) If d, how (ie can a first strike regime change policy ever be appropriate)
In the alternative, and agreement to hold or abandon indyref2 is reached quickly and in good humour regardless, more urgent concerns for any sovereign public that aims to take back control include :
i) The Queen’s speech is written by civil servants to accord with government policy; what safeguards are still needed to prevent a sovereign public being bound to similar terms
ii) If even the current Royal family (in whose trust the UK is named) can be bullied over questionable medical advice, what safeguards can be adopted to prevent public sovereignty being usurped by corruption/ petty authoritarianism in the NHS or other public service
iii) Wildfires were spreading like common cold in France and Canada recently. Some attribute this phenomenon to climate change – yet ignore the hitherto bulletproof slippered footshooting arising from the ostracisation of that part of the forestry and fire service workforce hesitant to dabble with experimental drugs; what safeguards can be provided to prevent the destruction of sovereign property arising through the unintended consequence of incompetent or arrogant administration of services provided to (or in the alleged best interest of) a naive, yet sovereign, public
*a risk not encountered in indyref1 because there was an agreed higher authority in the form of EU guidance on local election rules
Here’s No-Mark Boyle’s tabloid-style slur on Salmond which for some fucking reason he thinks he can get away with typing on Wings;
“His big mistake was – like Blair – taking too much time away from active politics for his money making media interests and then thinking he could simply waltz back when in the public perception he’d “retired”. Politics is like sport, once you’ve retired people don’t want you attempting to make a comeback, once you take the exit flap, you don’t get back into the circus tent.”
Above that he was slating Alba for failing to meet his first year politics degree standard with its election strategy — no mention of how Alba was systematically de-platformed and denied airtime or publicity.
If you aren’t a unionist you’re on the SNP payroll which these days I’m inclined to think is the same thing.
Give me 2000 words on that, little lightweight.
ROGER 5:07pm
Whatever the ethics and morality of «violence», in the history of national liberation it is the route which delivers. Paradoxically, it is the indicator of serious intent, the method more likely to get the international attention some seek than any other.
The SNP is manifestly not prepared to go to the wire. That leaves what?
Seemingly a reliance on ancient texts allegedly proving the Scots are what they claim they are. A Scottish apotheosis of Jarndyce and Jarndyce?
Might we expect hot pursuit from Sturgeon on this matter?
link to heraldscotland.com
The Saudi way is chop off that which offends.
Idle hands and overactive members.
Hatuey @ all of the above
Spot-on ma man
Timescales are for clock-watchers 🙂
Geri says:
26 July, 2022 at 3:43 am
Catching up with some of the comments.
My thoughts..
Claim of Right applies to Scots but Scotland entered into a new state when it was forced to join the Union & became the UK state.
You need to get up to date with SALVO Geri. Watch the video of Sara Salyers.
The Scottish Estates were deeply concerned about Scotland losing it’s distinctive integrity by entering the Union, so insisted upon a prenuptial type agreement that the Claim of Right should be respected by the Union, (which I suspect had a massive input in protecting Scots Law and Scottish Religion in the Articles of Union), and that if the Claim of Right was NOT respected by the Union, then there would be no Union.
So we have a prenuptial agreement and a get out clause, and a Treaty of Union is actually nowhere near as robust as it claims to be. But I don’t think it’s just a prenuptial, I’m actually seeing it there in the Articles themselves.
It has always stumped me how you could have Scots Law that was independent from English or any UK Law, (I know, no such thing as UK Law), because there is an obvious connotation that elements of Scots Law would thus be almost sovereign within its own right. Because who sat higher up, with the power to rule over Scots Law? If the Court of Session only answered to itself, then doesn’t that mean it is sovereign? But it’s not sovereign. The people are.
So, the autonomy given Scots Law by Articles 19, is autonomy for a Legal System, but that system answered to the Sovereign Scottish people; so the Claim of Right is right there, inextricably woven into the Article 19 of Union.
Scots Law is recognised by Article 19 of the Union, “the same authority and privileges as it held before the Union”… but Scots Law before the Union existed as an entity beneath and answerable to the constitutionally sovereign people. ‘salvo jure cujuslibet’, Saving the Rights of All.
I am no longer stumped how the Treaty of Union might “capture” Scotland’s Government, but not capture Scots Law or Scottish Religion, so how could the capture of said Scottish government ever constitute the demise of a Nation when Scots Law still had it’s Scottish Realm to reign in, and Sovereign people to answer to?
Even the Article 25 catchall clause is undone; “That all Laws and Statutes in either Kingdom so far as they are contrary to, or inconsistent with the Terms of these Articles, or any of them, shall from and after the Union cease and become void, and shall be so declared to be by the respective Parliaments of the said Kingdoms.
Because the Claim of Right is woven into the Treaty of Union, it is thus enshrined in the Terms of the Articles, so has neither ceased to be, nor become void.
The prenuptial Sara Salyers describes isn’t abstract, it right there in black and white in the Articles of Union.
Hatuey says:
26 July, 2022 at 8:52 am
No-Mark, that was exactly the point you made and now that you have made it you can’t unmake it which is unfortunate for you. Anyone can scroll back and confirm my interpretation.
Which was pish. As per usual.
“and now that you have made it you can’t unmake it which is unfortunate for you.”
How old are you exactly? Ten. You certainly sound like it in emotional and mental years. Of course, you’re just another of the sad sack’s around here’s multiple alias, so one must always make allowances for the disturbed element on WoS.
The point I was clearly making – at least to those who don’t struggle with the written word past “the cat sat on the mat” was that Salmond miscalculated how many would flock instantaneously to his banner and exacerbated this by not putting anywhere near the work required to convince the public this wasn’t spiteful vote-splitting revenge (the inevitable charge Sturgeon’s sycophants made against Alba just as they had ISP) and he was worth a punt again as some who at the very least would force the SNP to refocus on independence first and not “this year’s fashionably deviant”.
Spending time pursuing too much on other interests as well didn’t help – all but convincing waverers Salmond didn’t have much faith in his own comeback and was wanting to make sure he’d something to fall back on.
Maybe if you spent more time thinking, and less trolling, you wouldn’t keep tripping over your feet like this? 🙂
Well said Neale.
I have yet to hear Sturgeon publically list in detail Scotland’s wealth and resources and the positive impact it would have on the people if independent. Was talking to a delivery driver about that topic yesterday and he was completely ignorant as to our country’s resources.
Does anyone know how much England exports to Scotland as I only seem to find the Scotland to England figure.
No surprise there.
The real Independence Movement needs a Newspaper. The National belongs essentially – in every respect – to the SNP, so it cannot / will not serve the purpose.
A weekly is more realistic than a daily.
An free online publication is also the most realistic.
Doing something in print (occasionally) would only be a possibility if there was a successful fundraiser for such a venture, and/or if there were advance subscriptions for it.
Meanwhile, the weekly online publication could include a ’round-up’ of misleading articles published in dailies during the previous week, pointing out their misrepresentations and errors. Especially focusing on any misreporting in the mainline media of anything relating to the authentic independence movement.
It could also give a weekly voice to Alba representatives, including Alex Salmond, but also others. At the same time, it would not be restricted to Alba: all kinds of genuinely pro-Indy people could make contributions. No harm to incorporating a diversity of opinions, so long as they are all authentically pro-Indy (and not SNP-style masqueraders).
It would need a good editor, making sure such masqueraders and trolls don’t infiltrate.
It could help to publicise, promote, advertise and organise the kind of local pro-Indy assemblies people are talking about here btl. It could also – and this may be essential – publish reports back on these assembly, from people who participated in them.
It could also publish and promote relevant pro-Indy websites, giving updates on them. It could even make its own short videos of interviews, speeches, events, local assemblies.
Some of it could therefore go online. I suppose it could even have some kind of televised version available there. Perhaps AS’s experience of that media could help in this regard.
In fact, it could be a great source for joining up the whole (people’s independence) movement.
What would be the best name for such a publication, bearing in mind that it would aim to give the real Independence Movement its hub? All kinds of suggestions can be made. Mine would be … SCOTLAND THE WEEK … !
Correction to above post: NOT ‘some of it could go online’ but, rather, ALL of it would go online. But not reserved only to its primary Newspaper format, but also in other ways. Videos of events, speeches, discussions etc.
@ McDuff on 26 July, 2022 at 10:24 am:
Here’s a sample of what you might be looking for:
And if you scroll through this link (then click on A6 Cards at bottom of page) you may find more:
link to indyposterboy.scot
Ottomanboi says:
26 July, 2022 at 9:23 am
Might we expect hot pursuit from Sturgeon on this matter?
link to heraldscotland.com
No. Justice under Sturgeon doesn’t work like that. She wages ‘Lawfare’ on rivals (as do her mates in the US). But real predators get off unpunished – at least so long as they are on her side and/or are ‘queer’.
Oh f*ck BetVictor puts Glasgow as favourite to host the Eurovision backslapping political Song Contest. I can only hope Manchester the second favourite wins the right to host this political broadcast.
@ McDuff,
DOH! Sorry! Bottom link takes you straight to ‘A6 Cards’.
__________
@ wull on 26 July, 2022 at 10:41 am
I’ve suggested previously a similar idea for the indy movement but done in a more manageable A5 format, to begin with at least. Each issue could also cover, in-depth, a different issue related to indy, ie: one week currency then, say, pensions the next issue and so on and so forth.
Here’s Tommy doing his thing re the Claim of Right.
link to youtube.com
“His big mistake was – like Blair – taking too much time away from active politics for his money making media interests and then thinking he could simply waltz back when in the public perception he’d “retired”. Politics is like sport, once you’ve retired people don’t want you attempting to make a comeback, once you take the exit flap, you don’t get back into the circus tent.”
So this means what exactly?
Good stuff from Robin McAlpine too…
link to robinmcalpine.org
The Union is broken as it states that no country will have an advantage on trade.
N Ireland remains in the EU trading block as they requested and Scotland is not
although we had requested to do so.
The economy over there is booming and an embarrassment to those who only paid for Brexit to keep money laundering, tax avoidance and off shore accounts safe from the EU’s eyes.
Westminster needs to stop N Ireland booming or their game is up so they are happy to jeopardise the good Friday agreement and as ever it’s the EU’s fault they cry.
SNP agreed to keep the Indy ref result if there were no dramatic change to Scotlands circumstances. Being dragged out of Europe against our will with a 60% plus vote is that change in a nut shell.
Time for major new action and all Westminster rules go out the windows with their credibility
FORGET ABOUT LADY DICK AND COCKS IN FROCKS!
Did the ruling class ever come up with a better strategy to derail all progressive politics than to have everybody arguing about what a woman is? I’m not saying it isn’t an important issue – but it is not the ONLY issue and it is currently dominating everything. And if you make debunking Lady Dick your main focus, you will be deplatformed, silenced, called ‘transphobic’, a Trump supporter, etc. Fighting mainly about Lady Dick is fighting on their terms and is a losing strategy.
There’s nothing progressive – economically or socially, never mind on indy – about the current SNP gov’s policies. Just look at the deaths from drugs. What is this SNP gov dong about it “Oh we are doing all we can, but we don’t have all the levers, you see, so what can you do?”. Well what are you doing to GET the levers you say you need? All you’re saying is indy is needed – but I see zero progress on indy. So you’re doing nothing.
“But I have a rainbow flag ad pronouns in my bio, how can you say I’m no progressive?”. Well nice coat-trailing, but we’re not talking about pronouns. What are you doing about indy?
BTW high rates of addiction are not because Scots are exceptionally prone to be junkies. High rates of addiction are just another sign of a messed up society – and what is the Scottish gov doing about it? It’s a national disaster. Oh, you haven’t got the ‘levers’ you need to do anything? THEN GET THE FKN ‘LEVERS’ it all comes back to Indy.
Don’t fall into the trap of being diverted by Lady Dick and his cock – they love that debate because it’s faux ‘progressive’ and you can be dismissed, silenced and sidelined as ‘transphobic’ if you try debate it.
Focus on socio-economic issues and indy – they are shite on these issues and have no defence. It exposed how bogus their claims to be ‘progressive’ or serious about indy really are. Attack them on it.
@Mark Boyle,
Alex has never been yesterday’s man. Every time the SNP tried to oust him he returned to lead again.” Yon Salmond” is head and shoulders above every politician in Scotland and that ultimately is why the SNP colluded to remove him permanently by falsely accusing him of very serious crimes.
Westminster was mightily relieved that they did try.
I see Sam McCrory went to meet his maker on Sunday. Fell on the stairs after being a day on the piss by the looks of it. Well no see him walking aroon the toon noo.
The public «queering» of the SNP under Sturgeon’s aegis, now weighed down by airhead influencers and hangers on, has brought the independence project to a virtual halt.
Public office in the contemporary British state struggles to attract «the best», the Scottish independence cause, however, cannot afford the luxury of not attracting them.
This a project whose mechanism demands complete overhaul.
So out of Sturgeon’s favour Margaret Ferrier is to stand trial on August 15th, the betrayers attack dog the COPFS is to prosecute her for travelling whilst having Covid.
I wish Ferrier would summon the courage to spill the beans on what’s went terribly wrong with the SNP since the betrayer took office.
link to 12ft.io
Margaret Ferrier case.
The trial will last around ten days- 10 fecking days! Ffs how ridiculous. Jeez the auld witches back in the day were convicted in a few hours.
Wits the world coming tae!
Ottomanboi says:
26 July, 2022 at 12:30 pm
The public «queering» of the SNP under Sturgeon’s aegis, now weighed down by airhead influencers and hangers on, has brought the independence project to a virtual halt.
Yes, but I think that misses the point. Its not just that the ‘queering’ allowed all sorts of cranks and opportunists to run riot, it’s that the main debate became lunatic. All the time and energy was wasted in lunatic debates about female penises. These debates not only diverted attention from serious political issues but are utterly pointless when one side is prepared to argue that 2+2 doesn’t equal 4. Debating cranks and teenagers who are not acting in good faith is always a distracting waste of time and energy.
“Rishi Sunak vows to ‘drive down support for Scottish independence”
Sunak doesn’t need to worry about it, the betrayer is doing an excellent job of f*ckin it all up for Scots, and her spineless and gutless SNP MPs and MSPs are a disgrace, they’re an embarrassment to Scotland, a bunch of troughing b*stards who couldn’t give a monkeys about Scots, the last eight years of their silences only confirms this.
Anyone who thinks the betrayer and her utterly obedient MPs and MSPs will lead Scotland out of this putrid union needs their f*ckin head examined.
We must vote for the Alba party at every turn, the SNP are finished as an indy party.
link to 12ft.io
The Welsh FM and his predecessor Carwyn Jones have done more to highlight Scottish independence in a truthful way than the betrayer and her spineless and gutless hoarde have.
Carwyn Jones pointed out that Brexit cut clear across the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and that it was up to the Scottish government to do something about it, needless to say the betrayer did f*ck all about it.
Here Mark Drakeford the current Welsh FM points out that Scotland has the right to hold an indyref. These two FMs put the betrayer and her self-serving troughers (SNP MPs and MSPs) to shame, and show us exactly what they are, only a fool would ever give this lot their vote again.
Give your vote to Alba instead, lets get Sturgeon and her craven hoarde out of office, and a real indy minded party into office.
link to 12ft.io
@Robert Hughes says:26 July, 2022 at 9:25 am
“Hatuey @ all of the above
Spot-on ma man
Timescales are for clock-watchers ?”
Stand out comment of the day so far, Bob. And considering Hatuey has pebble-dashed a few, that’s no mean feat.
So, Bob, we can discount all of the thousands of comments over the years lamenting Sturgeon’s lack of progress on Indy by reference to your priceless pearl of wisdom:
Timescales are for clock-watchers.
Tell you what though, Bob. If Rev Stu decides to adopt this as a means of moderating posts, it will take a lot less time in future to read the BTL comments.
Oops, guess that makes me a clock-watcher, along with maybes everybody else here, barring you and HaHatuey.
RoS
What’s your hurry for Indy?
Don’t you know that timescales are for clock-watchers?
@ Republicofscotland: “Margaret Ferrier trial”.
Poor woman. What an unspeakably vile lot at the top of the SNP they are.
Main 1.05pm.
Time isn’t on our side as Westminster via its staging post Queen Elizabeth House further undermines devolution, and then there’s the intolerable continuous influx of Southern incomers who have already badly influenced the indy vote.
@Ottomanboi says: 26 July, 2022 at 9:07 am
“Whatever the ethics and morality of «violence», in the history of national liberation it is the route which delivers. Paradoxically, it is the indicator of serious intent, the method more likely to get the international attention some seek than any other”
Of course Otto. Then there’s the other route that delivers: non-violence, as epitomised by Gandhi as he master-minded Indian independence.
Going to have to quote Stewie at you Otto: “Educate yourself, dude!”
Johnny Mainline
I stopped taking you seriously when you told me a while back MY country was at war and I should be supporting it . Strangely enough , I’ve yet to see any bombs falling in Inverness , are you still hunkered down in your bunker in the DMZ of East Kilbride ?
link to globalresearch.ca
Breeks and anyone out there whom may help with a questions I cannot get my head around.
Q1. Prior to the signing of the treaty of the union did the two parliaments of Scotland and England agree and sign off legally that the soon to be created British parliament in 1707 would become under the protector of the treaty of the union.
Or, Was/ did the English parliament make that additional as and when they were ratifying the treaty of the union?
There seems to be a bit of fog obscuring the details.
Q2. As I can find NO actually historical date for the English parliament closing its doors for good as a political entity or of the monarchy acceptance of this specific date,
Did the English Parliament legally or ilegally, continue in the name of the British parliament?
Again there is some there is some hazy fog around this,
Q3. For the British parliament to have any continued authorisation as a governing body, the two parliaments of Scotland and England could not be Canceled.
Did canceling the two parliaments of Scotland and England actually cancel the treaty of the union before it could be continued under the new British parliament.
Or did three parliaments run simultainiously in 1706/1707?
Q4. When the Scottish and English parliaments signed the treaty of the union they worked two entirely different Calanders.
Thus we see the English parliament ratifying the the Scottish Acts almost several months before the Scottish Acts were approved by the Scottish parliament,
Until England changed its Calander in the mid seventeen hundreds, and then amended all treaty dates.
Was there not a serious discrepancy in dates regarding treaty of the union legality for Englands parliament approving the union between Scotland and Englands parliament before the Scottish parliament agreed?
Was there not
@Robert Hughes says:26 July, 2022 at 1:15 pm
“I stopped taking you seriously when you told me a while back MY country was at war and I should be supporting it”
Cool, Bob, have it your way. All together now:
“THERE IS NO WAR”.
Any message for the 47 million people added to the risk of starvation by this non-war (World Food Program figures)?
Don’t take too long with your reply. They could be dead soon.
Do tell us what kills them as in your reality, there is no war. Could it be clock-watching perchance?
Ah Johnny , you’re getting lazy and silly now , usually you’re at least coherent , and , to your credit , funny . Qualities lacking in your recent comments . Maybe your suffering from PTSD ; armchair war-cheering can be deleterious to one’s health doncha know ?
Did you forget to add the casualties of the not-so-proxy war in Yemen to your figure ? Maybe they’re too , well , brown , to be considered worthy of your moral rectitude .
I’ll say it again …..MY country eg Scotland is not at war .Except maybe with itself . A war of ideas and perceptions
That’s enough to be getting on with
John Main,
Of course, it’s all very Orwellian.
We’ve always been at war with Russia.
I’m not sure but are the Russians getting the blame for the 47 million added to the risk of starvation?
If so, why?
Ian Brotherhood.
Yes thats about, Crimes against Humanity, all humanity across the world, and the UN sits as dopey toothless idiotic reason for not being invented at all,
@Mark 10:21pm. Re Alex Salmond
He made a come back before & actually, in that instance, knobbled Sturgeons attempt at Leadership (FFS – imagine!) He said she wasn’t ready to lead Scotland (Jeez even he knew way back then!)but she could be his deputy. He also actually delivered us an indyref – he didn’t just talk shit about it for years while squandering mandates. A fact most seem quick to forget.
His *other interests* also included indyref at every opportunity on his banished tv show & by various guests he’d interview. No British TV would ever entertain such a notion.
I can guess his demise from what I’ve seen.
1. The fuckwit brigade have zero interest in Scottish independence. They’re a parasite feeding off the winning party for their own agenda. That’s it & thats all. RT is homophobic, transphobic, everyfecking phoblic therefore AS is too by association. He must be banished like the plague.
2. A unionst mist has descended on the stragglers. Through boredom & to save face of admitting there wrong they are now wedded to the *Sturgeon will deliver us indyref2* myth.
3. SNP 1&2 in an already confusing election process.
4. The voting is rigged. This isn’t as tin pot as it sounds. Take a look at the well dodgy figures on Pishy Pete for example, a majority of only 21 in one GE but suddenly catapulted into thousands the next GE? Same with Mundel who went from 200 or so majority then catapulted into something like 20,000 majority. How the fuck does that happen? LOL!
May be on our marches we should not Be chanting Tories out,
We should be chanting scottish devolved government out.
That way it includes all the useless b e e p s ..trying to prevent Scottish sovereignty.
We do not need a devolved government to call together the old Scottish parliament. In fact it would be a hinderance as it is now.
“What an unspeakably vile lot at the top of the SNP they are.”
Sarah @1.07pm.
Sturgeon the betrayer is ruthless, anyone (SNP MSPs MPs) can be sacrificed if they step out of line, or if the the public frowns on their actions, the betrayers spineless and gutless hoarde (MSPs MPs) are so obedient that even the late Ron L. Hubbard would’ve been impressed by the ruthlessness, and his Scientology Church runs a very tight ship indeed.
@Robert Hughes says:26 July, 2022 at 3:40 pm
“armchair war-cheering can be deleterious to one’s health doncha know”
So simply by pointing out there’s a war on, I become an armchair war cheerer?
OK, let’s run with that and see where it leads. As it happens, I forgot all about Yemen, but you reminded us all. Thanks.
Guess that makes you an armchair war cheerer too!
Don’t blame me, Bob. Simply applying your own logic to your own comments.
That’s enough to be getting on with.
Thank you Neale and Kenny. And to Stuart fir getting back with contributions and allowing this site to continue!
There is no doubt in my mind that sturgeon is under the direct control of the british secret service! She is actively working for them. Not as a spook, but a governor General with total power to wreck the indy cause! At her disposal, the police, Cops, judges, press and media and a tidal wave of pathetically cowardly MPs, MSPs, councillors, staffers and weak members of the SNP.
Ge enemies of independence are hard at work in the SNP Scottish government!
They have dirt on the SNP and big bribes for compliance!
Another excellent piece in Ian lawson yours for scotland blog.
Spot on breeks
As if Scots kids haven’t been dumbed down enough and smothered with wokie shite in recent year, the SNP’s Toni Giugliano wants kids to stay in nursery until they are six years of age.
This will be debated at the SNP’s conference in Aberdeen.
We have to remember that the Betrayers Curriculum for Excellence (education) has been a failure, many kids are leaving school as thick as mince, talking of thick mince, the odious and utterly unelectable Shirley Anne Somerville is, I think, still the Education minister.
God help the kids with this dolt in charge of their education.
A link would help.
link to 12ft.io
JOHN MAIN 1:13
I need no «education» in the matter of national liberation. My ancestors were involved in liberation struggle before Scottish nationalism was thought of.
link to riseforindia.com
Gandhi was something of a hypocrite and inclined to switch views to suit. He was «holier than thou» in distancing himself from the daily reality of the racist supremacy of the Raj and the violence that did effectively overpower its depleted post WW2 resources.
When your country is possessed by another, to rule out the use of violence is form of cowardice.
Worse, it seeks to attribute blame to the one possessed. Exactly what the British did in India and elsewhere.
Liberator=Terrorist.
Ottomanboi.
And that is exactly the oppotunity the British empire of unionism is waiting for,
An excuse to come down heavy handed with batons, armoured police, and perhaps an army itself to quell the Scots as they did in the at the enforced signing of the pseudo 1707 treaty pretend agreed union,
If you force someone through threat of violence and intimidation to life, it is not a voluntary agreement, but colonialism at its worst.
No better than any slavery and slavery of a country to which was this manner it enforced Scotland into a trety,
Yet the EU and the UN are not able to recognise what they preach when it looks at how Scotland became a part of Britain,
Bought an sold for English gold, a race of people that were given no say in their captivity. Or the rapeing and pihiliging of their countries resources
@Hatuey 8:31am.
Yes. I’ve long been an advocate to close Holyrood & reconvene the real Scottish parliament & bring the elected MPs home to fill it.
Not WMs puppet regime sitting in its Mickey mouse Holyrood parliament.
About the only thing Annie Wells ever got right. That parliament isn’t Sovereign.
But how to achieve that when a foreign power holds our purse and could issue direct rule at any given moment?
Negotiation & trying to appeal to their better nature has proven futile.
Just for reference of my previous post re election dodgy results afoot.
Mundell:
Maj GE2015 798
Maj GE2017 9,441
WTF? Where did over 8,000 Tory voters spring from?
I have questions.
I believe Imelda Sturgeon colludes with WM to remove AS from politics at all costs. He’s a clear & present danger & it’s nothing to do with ppl not backing him, imo. She’d hardly muster the tea lady & the janny to crowdfund her in any shenanigans. Highly suss she’s still in power.
And now these same Colonialists are telling Scots and all of Scotland you have “No right to self determination” nor will we give you an opportunity to be free from the price we bought you for, .
Whom would have thought amongst the dark races across this world the that some of the last people fighting for their freedom from oppressive enslavement of people by nationality race and colour would be Scots people, enslaved by force and violence for over three hundred and fifteen years.
I think this scene should be highlighted more by those fighting for independence that the British government at present is acting as Colonial masters of enslavement through a treaty that was violently forced upon the Scots.
In 2014, there were 590 drug deaths in Scotland. It has gone up every single year since then. In 2020 it reached 1,300 – that’s more than double in 6 years.
What is the SNP doing about it? Not enough, obviously.
Ah, but it hasn’t got ‘the levers’, I hear you say. Well, that’s BS, it may not have all the levers, but it has a lot of them. And what is it doing to get the rest – meaning indy? Not enough, obviously.
The highest per capita rate of drug deaths in Europe. What are you doing about, Nicola? The same as you’re doing about indy – sfa.
link to theguardian.com
@republicofscotland
Thats what Nordic(?) Countries do. Its apparently beneficial to children who by that age are more open to learning, don’t suffer parental abandonment issues, are more sociable & are all round happier & go on to be well adjusted high achievers.
They remain in a learning environment up until 7yrs old. Basically, not being tested for shit until they’re a bit more mature than they are at being thrown in at 5.
Unlike my olden days of being cuffed round the lugs at 5yrs for not reciting the 7 times table lol! Them were the day’s! Not.
@Ottomanboi & James Che
One thing to remember about Gandhi, he led the 1930 salt march that sparked a campaign of civil disobedience against British rule. He didn’t favour armed struggle, but he was prepared to break the law. In other words, he went a fk of a lot further than boring speeches about how ‘Scotland will not stand for this!” (yawn, sit back down, baggy little man)
“The twenty-four day march lasted from 12 March 1930 to 6 April 1930 as a direct action campaign of tax resistance and nonviolent protest against the British salt monopoly. Another reason for this march was that the Civil Disobedience Movement needed a strong inauguration that would inspire more people to follow Gandhi’s example. Gandhi started this march with 78 of his trusted volunteers. The march spanned 239 miles (385 km), from Sabarmati Ashram to Dandi. Growing numbers of Indians joined them along the way. When Gandhi broke the British Raj salt laws at 8:30 am on 6 April 1930, it sparked large scale acts of civil disobedience against the salt laws by millions of Indians.”
@ ottoman, I’m sure you’re aware that Gandhi didn’t ever completely rule out violence, a lot of people want to misrepresent him on that for some odd reason, and, actually, like you, he regarded those who wouldn’t defend themselves as cowards.
@ geri, everything you say chimes very harmoniously with my own views on Sturgeon. Maybe some day we will create a truth and reconciliation commission and find out what has been going on in our country. Then again, maybe it’s better that we don’t ever know.
One thing’s for sure, there’s dark forces at work.
What everybody needs to bear in mind, especially the naysayers on here, is that there’s every reason to be extremely optimistic about the independence movement and our prospects of success. Why?
Very simply; with the most potent propaganda machine the world has ever seen against us (the BBC), not to mention a multitude of other hostile forces telling us what a bad idea it is, they still can’t beat us and get us to give up on independence. More than that, despite all of their efforts, 50% of us at least are unshakable in our commitment.
All of that tells me that support for independence is probably closer to 70%, assuming you could have an honest debate and truthful reporting for a day or two.
Looking at it like that, our goal isn’t to win a debate on independence; our goal is to have a debate on independence. This stuff sells itself.
Stoker
Thanks for the info. As an example it backs up what you basically find in an English supermarket, that is a handful of Scottish products in comparison to the the saturation of English goods in Scottish stores.
As I have said, you never hear Sturgeon/ SNP mention these statistics which most people will be ignorant about and if regularly publicised I’m sure would have an effect on a yes vote.
Many people seem to thing there’s something nefarious going on with election results in Scotland. I don’t. And here’s why:
I remember the (April) 1981 byelection in Fermanagh/South Tyrone. Thatcher was PM and it was in the middle of the Hunger Strikes, in the middle of the Troubles. An IRA prisoner on hunger strike in the Maze prison, Bobby Sands, stood in that election. His election would have been a huge humiliation for Thatcher and the British state. Bobby Sands won that election on 51.2% of the vote against the Ulster Unionist candidate’s 48.8%.
When Sands died on hunger strike a while later, his election agent stood as a candidate – and won.
I also remember the 1983 General Election in West Belfast – Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams stood (first time Sinn Fein contested those elections) – and won. This was a massive humiliation for Maggie, and if all the Queen’s horses and all the Queen’s men could mess with elections, these three results would have been prevented.
The Representation of the People Act is a powerful thing. That’s why I don’t believe there’s any serious interference in elections. People may not like the fact that cosy slippers can win elections, but he can. It’s probably mainly because he’s SNP and the SNP is – in the popular mind – the independence movement.
We need to face facts. The SNP has massive popular appeal…but so did Labour, once upon a time.
@ McDuff
Aye, jist imagine if we had a Led By Donkeys style national campaigning initiative that could get that sort of information out…
But you see, we can’t have that as it would need tone policed by all the people that know best that sit at the top of the YES organisation chain. And let’s not forget that they know best when you see how they have been so instrumental in increasing the YES vote over the last 8 years…
Oh that’s right, I’m talking shit again!
I guess comfortably off second home owning celebrities on the board of such YES groups may not be quite as motivated to work towards Scotland returning to self governing status when compared to the many more poorer folk across our society that are about to get hit head on this winter by the unfolding economic situation.
“Many people seem to thing there’s something nefarious going on with election results in Scotland. I don’t. And here’s why:”
Roger.
What on earth has elections in NI got to do with elections in Scotland, I’m utterly unconvinced by your comment.
Geri says:
26 July, 2022 at 4:42 pm
Just for reference of my previous post re election dodgy results afoot.
Mundell:
Maj GE2015 798
Maj GE2017 9,441
WTF? Where did over 8,000 Tory voters spring from?
Quite easy. The ever slippery Lib Dem voters – by and large.
In 2015, Mundell faced six opponents – including UKIP, whose amount and share of the vote went up from the previous time. What anti-Tory vote there was however – unlike in 2010 – clearly coalesced around the SNP that election (the year of the near clean sweep) in a bid to get Mundell out, rather than the bulk being spread out between Labour, the LibDems and SNP
The Lib Dem vote collapsed (9,080 in 2010 to 1,392 and a lost deposit in 2015) albeit partly punishing the party for being in coalition with the Tories in the first place, but it’s noticeable it never recovered. Labour’s vote crashed from 13,263 to 7,711.
In fact in most years the SNP would have scored enough percent of the vote to take the seat easily.
Mundell’s actual vote in 2017 only increased by 3418 (24,177 from 20,759) from 2015 – his larger majority was down to a combination of returned Kippers to the Tory ranks (there was only four candidates), a concentration of resources from Tory HQ to keep the seat after the near miss last time, and the bump with voters candidates achieving Cabinet status attracts (people reckoning their area will get preferential treatment as a result).
But most of all, there were LibDem voters now having second thoughts about “loaning” the SNP their votes again, terrified of a Corbyn government, so some will have loaned their votes to the Tories this time in 2017.
It’s interesting to note that in 2019, with Corbyn clearly about to be destroyed and zero threat (half of Labour’s remaining vote here jumped straight over to the SNP), Mundell’s vote dropped by 1566 but the LibDems with the same candidate as in 2015, John Ferry, saw his vote rise by … 1591!
In short, this seat is very much up for grabs still depending on McMillan’s “events, dear boy, events …”
@Ottomanboi says:
26 July, 2022 at 4:10 pm
“Gandhi was something of a hypocrite and inclined to switch views to suit. He was «holier than thou» in distancing himself from the daily reality of the racist supremacy of the Raj”
Wow, Otto, in the splintered looking glass that is Wings BTL, you are now dissing Ghandi.
Oh well, if you associate with the likes of Hatuey, soon you won’t know left from right, up from down, right from wrong, diamonds from pebble-dash, or facts from mince.
You have a good day.
Republicofscotland says:
26 July, 2022 at 6:48 pm
“Many people seem to thing there’s something nefarious going on with election results in Scotland. I don’t. And here’s why:”
Roger.
What on earth has elections in NI got to do with elections in Scotland, I’m utterly unconvinced by your comment.
How about the fact that it’s the same system – both are held under the same rules (Representation of the People Acts) electing people to the same parliament?
@Hatuey says:26 July, 2022 at 5:31 pm
“Ghandi regarded those who wouldn’t defend themselves as cowards”
And how do YOU regard those who WILL defend themselves? I recall you posted ad nauseum about it at the end of February and into March. It’s on the tip of me tongue … something about “getting what they deserved” for having the temerity to take up arms in defence of their nation, homes and loved ones.
Short memories on Wings BTL I guess.
Republicofscotland says:
26 July, 2022 at 4:07 pm
As if Scots kids haven’t been dumbed down enough and smothered with wokie shite in recent year, the SNP’s Toni Giugliano wants kids to stay in nursery until they are six years of age
In Scandinavian coun tries the starting age for school is 6 in Denmark, Norway and Iceland, 7 in Finland and Sweden. No-one accuses their kids of being ‘dumbed down’.
I don’t think delaying the start of school is necessarily ‘wokie shite’, I think there is a lot of merit in it.
Here’s a New Scientist article from 2013:
link to newscientist.com
Roger.
How about the Scottish government not giving a monkeys which firms software is used by returning officers such as Tory Peter Lilley’s IDOX system, especially vulnerable is the PVS. On 11 December 2019, the BBC’s Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg appeared to have broken Electoral Law by revealing on the BBC’s Politics Live programme confidential information about how Postal Voters had cast their vote prior to 10pm on polling day in the UK/2019 General Election.
Peter Lilley was used by MI5/6 in the Arms to Iraq Inquiry.
Republicofscotland says:
26 July, 2022 at 7:08 pm
Roger.
How about the Scottish government not giving a monkeys which firms software is used by returning officers such as Tory Peter Lilley’s IDOX system, especially vulnerable is the PVS. On 11 December 2019, the BBC’s Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg appeared to have broken Electoral Law by revealing on the BBC’s Politics Live programme confidential information about how Postal Voters had cast their vote prior to 10pm on polling day in the UK/2019 General Election.
Peter Lilley was used by MI5/6 in the Arms to Iraq Inquiry.
Laura Kussenberg – whatever else she is – is a journalist. No doubt she has all sorts of sources. The postal votes were being counted and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if se managed to get a whiff of how that vote was going. But so what? That didn’t change the postal vote. Maybe she broke electoral law – I honestly don’t know – but it didn’t affect the vote.
And as to software used – just because a Tory has some share in the ownership of the company providing it does not of itself prove anything. And if there were irregularities in that, or any, election, why did none of the losing candidates challenge it in law? Did the SNP, Labour, Lib Dems, etc question it? And, if not, why not?
As I said, I tend to have faith in the Representation of the People Acts, and would want to see hard evidence before changing my mind on that.
“I don’t think delaying the start of school is necessarily ‘wokie shite’, I think there is a lot of merit in it.”
Scots Renewables.
I didn’t say that I said kids have been smothered in wokie shite.This is over and above what they need to learn at school, its all fine and well waiting a year or two extra then teaching kids the harder stuff, if and and its a big if, you have a proper educational system in place. I for one don’t believe that the Curriculum for Excellence provides that. Nor that SAS (more like SOS I’d say) is the right person for the job.
“Instead of subject knowledge, CfE focuses on personal attributes, to create confident individuals, successful learners, responsible citizens and effective contributors. No bad things in themselves, but it’s questionable to what extent someone can be considered a successful learner if they lack a decent education in core subjects such as English, maths, the sciences, languages, history and geography, as well as developing imagination and expertise in technical and creative subjects.”
“And CfE is failing even on its own terms, with criticism from examiners of pupils’ recent poor performance in Highers uncovered by The Times including a lack of critical thinking, generic answers and disappointing conclusions, suggesting all is not well with those transferable skills and there is an issue with teaching to the test and memorising answers rather than achieving an actual understanding of the subject.”
“Leaving aside the falling Higher pass rates, the fact that the average pass rate for Highers is around 75 per cent suggests that a quarter of those put forward for Highers may not have been suited to doing that subject at that level. You don’t expect everyone to pass, but if pupils are sitting an appropriate qualification that they are capable of, most should achieve an A-C pass grade. This suggests pupils are being pushed through that route inappropriately.”
Dan . I meant – but forgot , to say ….I’d be interested in getting involved in what you were proposing last night
Not sure in what capacity , I’ve zero experience in * that kind of thing * : unless spray painting ” TOON TONGS RULE ” on various surfaces in my long ago * crib * counts as campaigning agitprop
I’d be happy to help in any way I could , geography need be no obstacle , but I’m up near Lake Ness , y’know, the most voluminous body of water in North Britain 🙂
Can give you my email if you want ?
@ MacDuff Says: “As I have said, you never hear Sturgeon/ SNP mention these statistics which most people will be ignorant about and if regularly publicised I’m sure would have an effect on a yes vote.”
Couldn’t agree more! The current lot within The SNP are nothing short of useless at this sort of thing. How many times over the past several years or so have we bemoaned their lacklustre performances in front of TV/Radio audiences etc? Missing open goal after open goal. Even their interviews in news rags are absolutely honking. They should be dispersing the facts at every single opportunity, especially when on TV or radio. And in a firm, no bullshit, sort of way.
__________
For anyone who missed it. Absolutely no reason on earth why the pro-indy masses should not attack on multiple fronts. In fact a multi-pronged approach to indy is imperative in my opinion. Educating the masses to the facts helps to win folk over and strengthens our case at the same time. Win! Win! link to facebook.com
Roger.
If Kussenberg had access to the PV’s just as Ruth Davidson did, then who else had access to them do get my point.
Parties do complain, in 2007 the SNP asked for a recount and won by one seat after the recount. The UK government has interfered in Kenyan elections its well known, losing Scotland would be a total disaster.
Roger.
“In May 2016 concerns were raised with the Electoral Commission about the involvement with Idox Elections of former Tory Cabinet minister Peter Lilley, who is a senior non-executive director. When appointed as a director, during the infancy of the firm, executives told shareholders he “brings with him a wealth of experience of central and local government, which we believe will be of considerable benefit to the group, especially as it seeks to achieve an increasingly strategic role with both local and central government”.
“Objectors have questioned the rationale of awarding contracts to Idox when it has links to one political party, and about the “creeping privatisation” of elections. One objector who has lodged a complaint said:”
“Elections should be free of any issue that might raise any questions.”
Chris Highcock of the Electoral Management Board for Scotland said:
“Idox is one of a number of companies that supplies various support to returning officers across Scotland, and indeed the UK, as they deliver elections.
“Such suppliers provide services including, for example, the printing of ballot papers and poll cards. All such contracts are awarded by the individual returning officers on the basis of what will provide the best value and quality with the interests of the voter always at the heart of all our activities and contracts.”
“After one concerned person asked about the use of “Peter Lilley’s firm”, the Scottish Government responded:”
“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process.”
Republicofscotland says:
26 July, 2022 at 7:47 pm
Roger.
If Kussenberg had access to the PV’s just as Ruth Davidson did, then who else had access to them do get my point.
Parties do complain, in 2007 the SNP asked for a recount and won by one seat after the recount. The UK government has interfered in Kenyan elections its well known, losing Scotland would be a total disaster.
getting an idea how the count is going is a very long way from having access to the votes themselves.
And asking for a recount – and getting it – is exactly how the system is supposed to work. There was no evidence of any malpractice in that count though, was there? Recounts are common in tight elections – and, in reality, if you count 50k votes by hand 5 times, you’ll get a slightly different result each time. All your showing here is the electoral system working as it should.
And as for UK interference in Kenyan elections..I’m afraid I’m no expert on Africa, but I do know Kenyan elections are not held in the UK or under the Representation of the People Acts. And yes, losing Scotland would be a big blow – as was Bobby Sands and Gerry Adams getting elected, but it still happened – and that was in the context of a low intensity shooting war.
Roger says: at 7:59 pm
“And asking for a recount – and getting it – is exactly how the system is supposed to work. There was no evidence of any malpractice in that count though, was there? Recounts are common in tight elections – and, in reality, if you count 50k votes by hand 5 times, you’ll get a slightly different result each time. All your showing here is the electoral system working as it should.”
Aye, but we use E Counting now though…
And where was the mandate from the Scottish folk for our democratic processes to be hived off to a private company using no doubt expensive equipment that will need stored between elections, then dragged out and programmed with whatever vote and count system is being used for the next election, rather than jist utilising the local humans to do the job and give our democratic process a degree of engagement and scrutiny by members of the public.
IDOX delivering E counting solution to Scottish Government.
link to archive.ph
@Republicofscotland
I’m afraid all your second post about Lilly being a director shows is that nobody (except some unnamed concerned person) was worried about it.
Personally I object to the privatisation of any part of elections – or the NHS – too. But that’s a different point.
@Dan
I agree with you – the only way to have elections is with paper ballots counted in public. But this is just part of the problem with the SNP – they love importing ideas from the US and they basically love neoliberal privatisation.
They are brain dead and have no ideas of their own – even Lady Dick and the Cock Frockers is an import from the US.
Roger: “The UK government has interfered in Kenyan elections its well known…”
That’s not all they interfered with in Kenya; “Kenyans share stories of torture”
link to aljazeera.com
So much for British democracy and decolonisation.
Hatuey says:
26 July, 2022 at 8:21 pm
Roger: “The UK government has interfered in Kenyan elections its well known…”
That’s not all they interfered with in Kenya; “Kenyans share stories of torture”
link to aljazeera.com
So much for British democracy and decolonisation.
Yep, and that’s why I’m against an indy Scotland being in NATO – it’s just a gang of failed imperialists clutching the coat-tails of the current US empire. And nothing happening in eastern Europe at the moment changes my ind about that.
But we were talking about elections in Scotland and the UK…
@ Robert Hughes 7:43 pm
Your post is noted. I’ve a busy couple of weeks ahead dealing with other things, so we can pick this up again once the rush of folk racing to get involved slows down!
I looked out the power inverter and projector kit I have today, just need to get my car through its MOT again before I commit to running the cabling though…
Even if all aspects of the actual voting systems and count are legit (best not mention the franchises…), the way folks cast their votes is massively influenced by the predominantly unionist supporting telly and “newspapers” pumping out their propaganda 24/7.
Or were/are Cambridge Analytica / Integrity Initiative and all the other Big Data harvesters and influencers just doing what they do out of pure unadulterated altruism for the masses.
@Dan
Again, I agree with you. Above all, the big tech monopolies need to be broken up because they have a monopoly on who can say what. Basically if you don’t share the values and prejudices of rich west coast cock frocking Yanks, you’re out (ask Stu).
But that’s the reality. And look at it this way – in the 1980s the BBC might have had a bit of and anti-Sinn Fein bias (correct me if I’m wrong). Sinn Fein spokespeople couldn’t even have their voices broadcast on the BBC or ANY station, by LAW…yet they managed to win seats. So the BBC and Silicone Valley make life hard, but not impossible…
“I’m afraid all your second post about Lilly being a director shows is that nobody (except some unnamed concerned person) was worried about it.”
Roger.
Oh well that’s all right then, it must be nothing eh.
“Personally I object to the privatisation of any part of elections”
Yet you don’t appear all that concerned, because no one would dare interfere with the Representation of the People Acts, not even to hold onto Scotland and all the assets that goes with it, aye right Roger, I don’t know if you’re naive or what.
@Republicofscotland
Naive? Maybe. Or maybe I’m just wary of people making claims that the average voter will see as conspiracy theory – unless there’s PROOF, and you haven’t provided any.
But ending ecounting of votes and getting private companies out of the entire process is something worth campaigning for. The fact that the SNP allows/introduced it just shows how bankrupt they are. and that’s what they should be attacked on – they’re failed neoliberal policies and failure on everything from drugs to economic inequality to land-reform. They’ll try dodge by saying they haven’t ‘got the levers’ – and the only reply to that should be THEN GET THE FKN LEVERS – get indy done.
o/t Thinking out loud here, and doing some very rough sums.
From a Government perspective – what percentage of energy shortage consitutes an emergency?
2-3%? 5-7%?
On the surface England has an 11% energy deficit.
Scotland meets that deficit (give or take a few %) with renewable energy, over and above her own needs.
But look further into England’s electricity generation, and 45% of UK’s is produced from Gas, and most of those stations situated in England…. and an estimated 30% of that gas comes from Scotland. Although it could be as much as 60%, since 62% of the UK’s gas comes out of Scottish waters.
I did a ready reckoning over on the other thread.
Scotland provides her own energy, and then provides around 20% of the UK’s energy on top – most of which is used – or appropriated by England.
That’s 12 million English people subsidised by Scotland’s energy. Not including Oil/Petrol.
If that 12 million amounts to between 3 – 4 million households, and current energy costs are going to be in excess of £3,000 per household. That works out at between £9 – 12 Billion per year.
For the sake of simple numbers I’m going to say Scotland has 5 million population, and take that 9 – 12 figure and make it 10.
10,000,000 000 divided by 5,000 000 equals £2,000
So, subsidising 12 million English people with energy, is costing 5 million Scots £2,000 per head…. But instead of it going to Scotland’s people, it’s going to England’s ruling elite. They get the energy, and they get the money generated. Kaching.
Only, it’s more than that isn’t it, because Scotland gets no say, in the issuing of exploration licenses for Gas (or Oil) and they sell for millions. It gets no say, on the amount, and no hands on any of the taxes raised for the Gas companies who get the drilling licenses, which also sell for millions.
And of all the profits being made by the robber barrons on the electricity produced… Scotland gets none of the corporate tax generated.
They say, ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it’, but if you look at the above set up, you’d be forgiven for thinking this might be the exception that proves the rule.
How much energy does it take to fuel a nation’s sense of entitlement. The closer we get to Indy, I fear we may find out.
@ Dan: “paper ballots counted by people..”
Agree with this and the point you make about it encouraging community engagement in the democratic process. Why leave it to machines when we all every day hear of a machine breaking down or making errors. And remember those “hanging chads” in Florida the time when the US Presidential election was swung to Bush [I think it was] whereas it was really a Democrat win.
@Mark
Cheers for the election break down.
@Roger
I don’t buy into conspiracy theories of election rigging but some conspiracies may have a grain of truth mixed within. Maybe someone smarter than me can explain the two referendums we’ve had have shown direct interference.
Scottish Indyref – breaking rules of purdah?
Brexshit – dark funding reported to Clarissa *nothing to see here* Dickhead from the electoral commission?
Kunsburger – common for parties to sample the postal votes. She’d be sniffing around her mates for inside info. Not much surprise there.
Boundary changes? We’re about to lose 6 seats next GE.
& Tories seem hell bent on repealing the People’s Act & make it impossible for huge sections of society to vote without documents of identity they’ve no hope of affording.
As my Mam would say ‘Theres more ways to skin a cat..’
As for Bobby Sands. NI isn’t a big player on the resources front. Its a backwater to them. No great shakes what happens there in the grand scheme of things. They’ve feck all to rob.
Sands voice was taken by Maggie but it had the opposite effect. Maybe a huge difference there is the mighty BBC of NI have their own broadcasting rights? Something Scotland is denied.
In a democracy his voice should’ve been heard. It was through NI media. Here we were given a voice over. What was the point of that?
Agree with you 100% re NATO. Its like a fog has descended & we are suddenly the 51st state of mentalists. Keep this up & we’ll soon be able to buy guns in the middle isle of Aldi! LOL.
Oops. Not Sands but Adams.
Republicofscotland says:
26 July, 2022 at 7:41 pm
“the fact that the average pass rate for Highers is around 75 per cent suggests that a quarter of those put forward for Highers may not have been suited to doing that subject at that level. You don’t expect everyone to pass, but if pupils are sitting an appropriate qualification that they are capable of, most should achieve an A-C pass grade.”
Why? The pass rate has been between 65 and 77% for the whole of this century – un til the entire method of assessment was changed by Covid. Comparing 2021 with 2022 is pointless.
Roger,
I don’t think you need proof to merit distrust of the integrity of any vote counting in the good old UK.
A track record of bending and breaking rules is more than enough for some people to raise eyebrows over trustworthiness.
Comparing the gerrymandering of votes in Scotland with the tinderbox of a volatile Northern Ireland 3 or 4 decades prior, would seem to me like comparing apples with grenades.
An independent Scotland is a threat to the UK, I think we all know and accept this.
The British security services know this too.
It is their job, and perhaps their only job, to negate those threats.
I don’t have any proof that the security services would try to do their job to the very best of their ability but it would be logical to accept that they would.
Perhaps believing that the security services would break the law in their objectives to neutralise threats to the State is a bridge to far for some people but I would imagine it’s not a great leap for most.
As I’ve said, I have no proof but we don’t proof to make logical deductions.
In the end, because we’re emotional creatures, most people believe what is most comforting to them.
*we don’t need proof to make logical deductions.
@Breastplate
Yet the SNP won 56 out of 59 seats in 2015…
I just don’t see where there’s interference in the electoral process. Sorry
Roger,
And..
The UK still stands.
Breastplate says:
27 July, 2022 at 12:56 am
Roger,
And..
The UK still stands
Unfortunately it does. But I’m not sure what your point is – do you mean it makes no odds how many pro-indy MPs or MSPs are elected? If it doesn’t, then why would anybody bother interfering with elections anyway?
The SNP under Sturgeon – even with 56 MPs – turned out to be a dud, but nobody knew that in 2015.
Roger,
My point is it is that it is immaterial whether Scotland sends 1 pro independence MP or 59 to Westminster after a GE, it isn’t a threat.
From a UK security point of view, there would be no need to gerrymander anything that wasn’t a threat.
Again, you don’t need to believe that, you’re perfectly entitled to believe what you want.
I tend to be a little more cynical.
Roger.
2015.
Maggie’s ‘if Scots want indy let them send a majority of MPs to Westminster’
59 seats is a drop in the ocean to a sea of over 600.
There’s no democracy to be found there.
Not sure why my last post is in moderation?
Maybe this one will too? ?
Sorry, I forgot to add that everybody knew that 2015 was going to be a dud because Nicola Sturgeon stated that it would definitely not be about independence.
True Breastplate.
Proof of that was indyref secured with only 4 MPs there.
Sturgeons had 50+ MPs & achieved the grand total of SFA.
Good point Geri.
@Geri
The Representation of the People Acts don’t cover referendums, so I’m making no claims about them as such – and if there WAS to be any messing around, obviously an indyref would be a much more likely target than an election.
I’m not saying there was or was not interference in the indyref, I’m saying I find it hard to believe there’s interference in ELECTIONS.
Roger.
The proof you require is freely available on Google but here’s just one..
link to theguardian.com
Remember too Ruthie tank commander returned 13 MPs to WM claiming her funds were raised from fetes & raffles.
Aye, righty!
Cambridge analytics, dodgy donor’s & dark money swashing around.
Whatever happened to the police investigations? Nothing. Tank commander was gifted a seat in the lord’s tho.
As I said, there’s more ways to skin a cat..
Geri says:
27 July, 2022 at 1:44 am
Roger.
The proof you require is freely available on Google but here’s just one..
link to theguardian.com
Yes, the Tories cheated by over spending. I see the article says “At present, up to 20 sitting Conservative MPs are the subject of criminal investigation by 16 police forces.”
Didn’t something similar happen involving funding for the Tories from some front they had unionists in NI set up?
But that’s not what I’m talking about – there was no nefarious interference in the conduct or count of the election itself. One of the parties cheated – and apparently the ref showed them a yellow card.
And what Grant Shapps did – essentially compiling a database of likely undecided voters and targeting them – was just smart electioneering. People got excited about it because it used social media (Hello, and welcome to the 21st century..). We need to learn from Shapps, because wile everybody (non-Tory) was condemning him, you can be sure they copied him in the next election…
Roger.
They broke election rules. They wilfully overspent & harvested data to win a referendum & general elections. If that’s not inference in your book I don’t know what is?
My post awaiting moderation also referenced their dodgy by-election vote rigging.
The ref did show them the yellow card but the ref was obviously told to shut it & play on. Which they refused to do & handed it to the Met. The ref is also demoted as they try to shoe-in their own ref for next time so there’s no meddling in their dastardly deeds.
What was the result of the police investigations? Nothing happens. A paltry fine if they’re lucky that their rich donors can pay. Nae danger!
I see BoJo is doing exactly what I said he’d do, refusing to go quietly LOL! Already looking for ways to have the membership save him. This is going to get interesting.
Anyway, point being they aren’t even honest between themselves never mind overseeing any future indyref.
Also, sorry. I meant to add overspending on an election is a big deal. It reverts back to where only the wealthy can participate in elections & screw the plebs.
Money spent shows up in the results at the ballot box so they can count all day. It’s still election rigging.
Jacob Moggs dream to revert back to the Victorian era pre People’s Act.
They may get their way by introducing ID for the same reasons. Remove votes from the riff raff.
Roger says:
And what Grant Shapps did – essentially compiling a database of likely undecided voters and targeting them – was just smart electioneering. People got excited about it because it used social media (Hello, and welcome to the 21st century..). We need to learn from Shapps, because wile everybody (non-Tory) was condemning him, you can be sure they copied him in the next election…
Smart electioneering is what Better Together did in 2014.
link to tinyurl.com
This is worth watching.
Frankie Boyle said that we are the only country in history that’s ever been led by incompetent fascists
He said we will be led to the the death camps in a replacement bus service!
Keir Starmer left speechless when an ordinary member of the public gets access to him.
Isn’t it funny how so called Labour leads like him and Brown cannot be allowed to face questions from the public as we don’t follow the polite rules of the U.K. media asking pre arranged questions they are comfortable.
link to twitter.com
Effigy @ 7.37
That woman doesn’t miss eh ? Charisma-free Keir telt , just like Gormless Gordie before him , by one of those annoying Working Class types who clocked them for what they are eg entrenched * members * of the Metropolitan Elite ,condescending to visit one their once secure Northern outposts . Who can forget Socialist Firebrand Peter – now Baron – Mandelson’s classic Guacamole/Mushy Peas confusion ? A perfect illustration of the disconnect between the essentially Middle Class Political Class and * Common People * .
The tragedy is things will likely be SO bad by the time of the next GE that mob of pink-hued Tory Lites will probably be allowed in to deal with the carnage ; though even that’s not a certainty , and the great English public – or enough of them – may conclude yet again they’re better off sticking with the cunts they know . Either way , nothing of any significance will change , they’re all singing from the same Neo Lib songbook .
Ditto * our * SNP sell-out fuckwits
Effigy @ 7:37,
She is bang on the money.
I wonder if Sir Keir Starmer is a Tory in charge of New Labour, could it be that he’s masquerading as a leader who is down with the plebs, surely not.
It can’t be true, I’m pretty sure he loves the ordinary working class punter, after all, his nanny was one.
Robert Hughes,
Agreed, we have only an illusion of choice.
I’m always disappointed when I see people targeting one party over another as if they were in any way different, especially here on Wings where we are supposed to be a bit more switched on.
It’s one of the reasons that I put forward that the use of the phrases “Tories out” or “Tory scum” used by people including AUOB is I think detrimental to the Yes movement because they are pinpointing one particular party. It inadvertently adds credence to the other parties by not being the Conservatives.
They are all tories. The quicker we all realise this the better.
” They are all tories. The quicker we all realise this the better.”
Indeed Breastplate .
The only difference is the Tories haven’t been captured by the * Woke * zealots . Yet . Though they may continue to resist if , as appears to be the case , the tide is turning against all that mindrot and they can extract political capital from being seen to be opposed to it
Breastplate 12.24: “Perhaps believing that the security services would break the law in their objectives to neutralise threats to the State is a bridge to far for some people but I would imagine it’s not a great leap for most.”
Bear in mind that the new Covert Human Intelligence (Criminal Conduct)Act now allows many government agencies, including the police and security services, to commit criminal acts up to and including murder “to neutralise threats to the state” as you put it. There’s now no bridge or leap necessary, I’m afraid.
Another piece of dictatorial Tory legislation sneaked through under cover of Covid and with little opposition from Keir Stumer’s lot…….
TC,
I agree with you, there are others who believe that it just wouldn’t happen because..well, eh, it’s just not cricket.
@TC (9.32) –
That is alarming.
So, if someone like Willie McRae was ‘dealt with’ now rather than back in the day, there would be no need for any cover-up?
@TC –
Come to think of it, anyone supporting our independence does ‘threaten the state’, so where do they draw the line?
IanB,
“Come to think of it, anyone supporting our independence does ‘threaten the state’, so where do they draw the line?”
I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be where we would draw it.
IanB,
They would still cover up any crime they committed but I think the Criminal Conduct Act that TC mentions would ensure there is no “crime” to answer for.
Re VIOLENCE
This may be physical or psychological in character.
Either way, it merits a response from those experiencing it.
Gandhian «satyagraha» response would have the oppressed just put up with it, for the sake of «truth».
I am not convinced oppressors are concerned with the religio-philosophical concept or with having their oppression «purified» as a consequence of the selfless suffering of the oppressed.
Jam tomorrow, reward in heaven basically but in the meantime…
Ottomanboi,
The truth of the matter is violence works, many goals are achieved by violence or the threat of violence but also many goals are achieved without it.
It lives on the same plane of existence as “might is right”.
There is more than one way to achieve your goals, however, violence may be a last resort for some.
I would expect diplomacy to be the first port of call, though.
@Breastplate and Ian Brotherhood: you tin-foil-hatted, conspiracy theorists, you! 🙂
I wouldn’t worry about your level of cynicism, Breastplate: yours could never plumb the Tory depths of such an attitude, which is at the bottom of their every action, along with insatiable greed and lust for power.
And, sadly for us, Scotland has long replaced India as The Jewel in The Crown.
“The butterfly caught in the web…”
Ooermissus!
“I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence… I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor.” (Gandhi)
I wouldn’t say Gandhi was more violent than Hitler but it has been suggested, and I suppose what matters is the harm caused — he was certainly more harmful.
Roger @9.0pm.
Yeah Roger I must be a conspiracy nut, the Civil Service and Better Together which represented the UK government didn’t lie once on anything during the 2014 indyref.
As for the betrayer (Sturgeon) and her hoarde of gutless and spineless MPs and MSPs, they’ve taken the indy masses for mugs for eight long years.
Tinto Chiel says:
27 July, 2022 at 9:32 am
Bear in mind that the new Covert Human Intelligence (Criminal Conduct)Act now allows many government agencies, including the police and security services, to commit criminal acts up to and including murder “to neutralise threats to the state” as you put it. There’s now no bridge or leap necessary, I’m afraid.
Has Starmer said he would repeal this? I doubt it – more likely he has promised NOT to repeal it. It would be good if some journalist put this question to him, just to get him on the record. When canvassing and you come across somebody who says they will vote Labour, it might be worth mentioning this to them – tell them to google it. Some of them will, of course, justify it or like it, but a lot won’t…
What has happened to Labour under Starmer is virtually the same as happened to the SNP under Sturgeon. The genuine socialist or indy policies have been abandoned and supporters of them demonised.
BTW in the modern world if somebody is labeled ‘transphobic’, ‘antisemitic’, etc, it is career destroying; yet people seem to be able to make these allegations with very little comeback. This type of character assassination can even lead to people killing themselves. Obviously there are real antisemites, etc out there, but there should be some sort of legal penalty for falsely claiming that somebody is transphobic, etc – or at least the seriousness of the allegation should be recognised in libel and slander trials and damages awarded accordingly. That might give some of the little thugs pause…
The COPFS’s foot soldiers remove RMT demonstrators from Glasgow’s Central station, victory must be for the unions, its all the common worker has to rebel with, his or her labour.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
link to 12ft.io
Is there anyone one left with any doubt that the millionaire knight of the realm and leader of the Labour party is actually a Tory in disguise, this should surely get them thinking.
“A LABOUR shadow cabinet minister has defied leader Keir Starmer’s orders to stay away from picket lines as RMT members carry out widespread strike action across the UK’s rail network.
Shadow transport minister Sam Tarry joined striking workers on the picket line at Euston Station in London, despite Starmer’s opposition to his MPs doing so.”
A Labour leader telling his party minister not to stand up for workers.
O/T: Allison Bailey has won her case against the Stonewall-inspired discrimination by Garden Court Chambers.
See her twitter.
Wonderful news.
Sarah Mackenzie says:
27 July, 2022 at 12:22 pm
O/T: Allison Bailey has won her case against the Stonewall-inspired discrimination by Garden Court Chambers.
See her twitter.
Wonderful news.
It is indeed good news. On the other hand, it depresses the hell out of me that reality is classed as a ‘belief’ as if it were some religion like the bloody Moonies.
‘gender critical belief’ is simply recognising that men and women are different – basic reality. Now it seems the law is treating belief in reality as if it ere a cult.
How the fk did we get here?!?
Roger,
I think we got here because perception is now the new reality among many.
Breastplate says:
27 July, 2022 at 12:43 pm
Roger,
I think we got here because perception is now the new reality among many.
<b Isn't the proper term for that 'psychosis'?
Sarah @12.22pm.
Yes that’s a result here is Bailey’s press release and Twitter page.
link to allisonbailey.co.uk
link to twitter.com
And yet still Stonewall are going “lalalalalwewon!”
Well if you think reality’s whatever you want it to be, no surprise really they can’t accept real world facts.
Roger,
You’re not wrong.
Counting the votes used to be done locally and publicly here in Scotland when was younger,
There also used to be more voting constituencies.
When constituencies are altered to favour a different outcome of voting results, it displays interference,
When a system of local voting and vote counting in public has worked for hundreds of years , there has to be a reason why suddenly you want all the votes packaged up and shipped by vehicles through the night to else where to be counted without public viewing,
When any political party no matter which party, owns the vote counting franchise it allows scope for corruption.
When the monoperly of the vote is no openly honesty for the public to view from start to finish it is no longer a reliable source from interference.
WHY WOULD YOU collect all the votes together from their all their counting stations source and box them up to be counted elsewhere out of site and of site miles away.
There has to be some sense of extreme naivety like a child if you think how things were forty or fifty years ago has been unaltered politically.
For a start We no longer count votes locally or in front of locals by hand,
Mark,
Agreed.
If you can believe you are Napoleon, Ghengis Khan, Tutankhamen or a woman just because you say so, then I suppose it’s difficult to be accused of being a victim of reality.
Republicofscotland says:
27 July, 2022 at 11:48 am
Is there anyone one left with any doubt that the millionaire knight of the realm and leader of the Labour party is actually a Tory in disguise, this should surely get them thinking.
“A LABOUR shadow cabinet minister has defied leader Keir Starmer’s orders to stay away from picket lines as RMT members carry out widespread strike action across the UK’s rail network.
Shadow transport minister Sam Tarry joined striking workers on the picket line at Euston Station in London, despite Starmer’s opposition to his MPs doing so.”
A Labour leader telling his party minister not to stand up for workers.
The galling part is that some MPs (or rather their constituency parties, since sponsoring MPs directly is “illegal” in Labour now … supposedly …) are sponsored by the RMT: namely Diane Abbott, Ben Bradshaw, Dan Carden, Alex Cunningham, Clive Lewis, John McDonnell, Rachel Maskell, Ian Mearns, Grahame Morris, Lisa Nandy, Angela Rayner, Matt Rodda, Lloyd Russell-Moyle, Cat Smith and Jo Stevens.
What the hell are they supposed to do? Turn around and say to their constituency party, “sorry, but Sir Keir of Waffle has instructed all his squires not to support your premier bankroller, you’ll just have to find new ways to raise money for elections and the like – and don’t expect me to make up the shortfall!”?
Likewise Sam Tarry – he’s their Transport Minister for crying out loud!
I don’t particularly trust Mick Lynch – regardless of the rhetoric, he clearly sees himself as a new Arthur Scargill (who was a cannier man than given credit for) or Jack Jones – but it’s ludicrous of Labour of all parties to attempt to make political capital out of this dispute while telling its frontline politicians not to show public solidarity on picket lines (even if for just a five minute photo op) – and then adding insult to injury by expecting the RMT to still support Labour at the next election on the grounds of “Tories Baaaad!”
There’s times I wonder if both Labour and the Tories are now deliberately trying to fk up their own party’s chances of winning the next election because they know the nightmare the winner will inherit will see them rendered pariahs to the electorate for the next three thereafter.
Republicofscotland .
All present political parties are under one umberella Including in Scotland, it seems to be a worldwide common cult to sing from the same hymn sheet nowadays while the present a false front of difference.
O/ T
It has raised more than curiosity that fibulators are being placed in garages, shops and scools.
What are government expecting to happen to peoples health soon.
James che said (26 July, 2022 at 2:16 pm);
“Breeks and anyone out there whom may help with a questions I cannot get my head around.
Q1. Prior to the signing of the treaty of the union did the two parliaments of Scotland and England agree and sign off legally that the soon to be created British parliament in 1707 would become under the protector of the treaty of the union.”
A1. No, they did not! The Treaty is the foundation of the UK Parliament, and Westminster doesn’t want us Scots to exercise our sovereign right as one of the two signators to end it, so ‘protecting’ the Treaty is really Westminster protecting itself. But it is protecting the Treaty by denying our right to end it. It does not own the Treaty and has no legitimate authority to amend it beyond what the Treaty itself permits. The UK Parliament is not one of the two signators, it is a creation of the Treaty, and didn’t exist until the Treaty was ratified and subsequently came into effect, so it cannot regard itself as either of the owners. This also shows up the lie of continuity with the English parliament, because the two parliaments had different authorities and powers, and dealt with different populations that have different forms of consitututional of sovereignty and legal systems. Basically, the Scots are sovereign in their own country, and the English aren’t sovereign anywhere.
“Or, Was/ did the English parliament make that additional as and when they were ratifying the treaty of the union?
There seems to be a bit of fog obscuring the details.”
A1b. The English parliament made no amendments to the Treaty as ratified by the Scottish parliament. The Scottish parliament’s only amendment was the obligation that Scotland’s 1689 Claim of Right will be permanently upheld as a condition of that ratification. When the English Parliament also ratified the Treaty AND that condition, that obligation became active, binding, and ignored.
“Q2. As I can find NO actually historical date for the English parliament closing its doors for good as a political entity or of the monarchy acceptance of this specific date,
Did the English Parliament legally or ilegally, continue in the name of the British parliament?”
A2. The English Parliament continued unchanged except for its name and the extra territory it governed. Westminster proudly states its unbroken continuity with its pre-Union ancestor. It met as the English Parliament to ratify the Treaty, and adjourned immediately afterwards. There was no abolition of any kind. The Union came into effect on 1st May 1707, but parliament didn’t meet until the autumn, and when it did it was as the brand new GB Parliament, without even bothering with an election beforehand, despite it clearly being a brand new parliament. Every aspect of the old English Parliament, its rights, privileges, customs, practices, conventions, etc continued unchanged in the new GB Parliament, but nothing whatsoever of the Scottish Parliament was adopted bar a handful of Scots MPs and lords.
There was no formal transfer, nor any evidence of an informal transfer, of the sovereignty of the old English Parliament to the new GB Parliament. It somehow just already had the same ‘unlimited sovereignty’ as the old one, but now applied that over Scotland, in spite of the ratified obligation to uphold the Scotland’s sovereignty. So definitely illegal, unconstitutional, and Treaty-breaking.
“Again there is some there is some hazy fog around this,
Q3. For the British parliament to have any continued authorisation as a governing body, the two parliaments of Scotland and England could not be Cancelled.
Did canceling the two parliaments of Scotland and England actually cancel the treaty of the union before it could be continued under the new British parliament.
Or did three parliaments run simultainiously in 1706/1707?”
A3. The British Parliament’s authority to govern the UK came from the formal ratification of the Treaty, as agreed by the two parliaments. They both became redundant from 1st May 1707, and the brand new GB Parliament took over. That Treaty created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and created a new Parliament to govern it. Its powers are set and limited by that Treaty, and any serious breach of the Treaty’s terms is supposed to kill the Treaty and the Union stone dead. There have been many such breaches, but Westminster ignores all of them, waving its ‘unlimited sovereignty’ as sole justification. But we can still challenge the UKP and hold it to account, because the Scottish constitution is crystal clear that any form of government over the people of Scotland is accountable to them.
“Q4. When the Scottish and English parliaments signed the treaty of the union they worked two entirely different Calanders.
Thus we see the English parliament ratifying the the Scottish Acts almost several months before the Scottish Acts were approved by the Scottish parliament,
Until England changed its Calander in the mid seventeen hundreds, and then amended all treaty dates.
Was there not a serious discrepancy in dates regarding treaty of the union legality for Englands parliament approving the union between Scotland and Englands parliament before the Scottish parliament agreed?”
A4. No. The year numbers are just the year their annual sessions started. The two parliaments’ sessions started on different dates so the SP could finish up and start the 1707 one while the EP was still running their 1706 one. It has no significance.
Apologies if this is repetition but mention of the Covert Human Intelligence (Criminal Conduct) Act on same thread as talk of Margaret Ferrier’s ongoing persecution reminded me of some basic research showing (all) vehicle drivers to be about 10 times more likely to wilfully expose people to risk of death than an asymptomatic person leaving home with a positive PCR test.
Since these drivers are not routinely prosecuted for such alleged recklessness (and are not either required to advise DVLA of their travel plans in respect of the known risk) can anyone confirm my understanding that, notwithstanding said Act, Ms Ferrier defence team would be well within its rights to disbar all fully or partially vaccinated from the jury, and even the prosecution/ bench*, lest they be considered too susceptible to bullying, brainwashing or corruption to adjudicate her case correctly.
*Worst case, any request for same might reconfirm privacy rights (eg medical history) under Scots law and throw some contemporary legal precedent across the path of any chancers still pushing pet passports for humans.
Imelda Sturgeon is a useful puppet for the anglobrit establishment that is quite clear now. I mean look at her and the SNPs inaction plus the windbaggery and woke/sjw fascism and tell me her and her cronies will lead Scotland to its rightful independence.
James che says:
27 July, 2022 at 1:49 pm
Republicofscotland .
All present political parties are under one umberella Including in Scotland, it seems to be a worldwide common cult to sing from the same hymn sheet nowadays while the present a false front of difference.
yeah, its basically a one party system, just with a lot of parties all saying the same on wokus pocus and on economics.
It’s like Henry Ford’s choice of colours for his Model T.
“You can have any colour car you like, so long as it’s black”
The privatisation of everything (including elections, apparently) will continue nd Lady ick will keep flashing his hairy balls and demand to bee called ‘ma’am’….
Life in US neocolonies…
@Roger 11.32: I’m pretty sure Keir, as a former Director of Public Prosecutions, is quite sanguine about the Covert Human Intelligence (CC) Act. It’s ironical that he rose to prominence as a Human Rights lawyer but politics is full of such ironies.
His behaviour during the Covid period showed him to be arguably more authoritarian over vaccination, lockdown and masking than even the government. This is perhaps unsurprising since he is a member of The Trilateral Commission, another globalist organisation.
I’m afraid attempting to seek redress in the courts (particularly in Scotland) for libel is fraught with danger and costs: think of what happened to Stuart Campbell, for example. This could be summarised as, “OK, you’re not an anti-gay bigot but I ‘m going to award the plaintiff crippling costs against you any way.”
Nicola and the Lord Advocate seem very keen on bench trials, too, rather than trial by peers. Although this is often parcelled up as a good way of increasing conviction rates for r@pe (ignoring the obvious flaw in that proposal) it is very bad news for any of us charged with other offences and brought to court.
We should all get fully behind this strike.
link to twitter.com
I may call it a day here after today for a while, conversations above have made me realise I do not foresee a route through the usual systems of present protecol governance of elections to be any where near accurate for the future gain of independence. The goal posts often keep moving as to what constitutes a % from the main stream of politics for scottish independence,
There have been enough political mandates given to Holyrude to fill many lorries with votes.
This cannot be about convincing the soft NOs any longer, for the ballot box can be altered.
And Westminsters scoffs and ignores them.
Not to mention the agent in the devolved government.
Perhaps this has always been my feeling lurking underneath the surface,
The feeling of trying to glue a rotten chair together every year that is full of woodworm is a dauntless prospect, that will have very little stability from some heavy weight sitting on it.
Which is what is occurring
My issue here is that we are looking at the rotten chair as one day being fixable, , this will never be, as the wood worm was in the wood at the beginning of its creation.
Salvo is a more definitive route to go down and offers a higher percentage success rate long term when the organisation has a official recognised hub.
But the problem here relies on the British government following and observing the rules of a treaty of union as gospel.
When we observe their position on how to follow conventions, good friday agreements , and Scotland voting differently during Brexit to trade that was wrote into the treaty of the union, they ignore all pinky promises.
Salvo will only work if and when ( they) want to accept the and view treaty of the union with Scotland from our side that it was a legal treaty for both sides, not just one, but they do not,
However the treaty is more often than not, used as a weapon against Scotland from Westminster, While holding us to it word for word,
They break the terms, bend the rules, use English crown courts to run rough shod through Scots laws in a treaty,
These two sides of the same coin regarding the treaty of the union From Scotlands reality perspective and Westminsters hazy bendy slippery point of view, do not meet in the middle or any where near it.
Scotland and England have opposing realities of whom owns the treaty, so therefore whom can alter the treaty to their advantage.
In this light, they presume they own all of the treaty of the union and can refuse Scotland Access to our “Scottish claim of right” and there fore to Salvo,
At this point I prefer to look at the wrong choice of woodland and wood for the construction of the chair, rather than the chair after its construction.
The chair was never made for Scots to sit on.
With the result it was constructed in haste and badly.
The woodworm holes are so big they are loop holes.
@ Hatuey says:27 July, 2022 at 11:13 am
“Gandhi more harmful than Hitler”
Another day, another priceless pearl from Hatuey.
People have gone to the trouble to assess and compare baddies through history and there is plenty of online information to hand.
For those retaining some affection, regard and admiration for Gandhi, I can assure you he does not feature in the 8 Historical Figures Who Were Worse Than Hitler site, to name but one.
@ James che says:27 July, 2022 at 3:18 pm
“This cannot be about convincing the soft NOs any longer”
Sorry to hear that, James.
Myself, I have always thought that the “problem” of persuading the soft NOs was by far the easiest problem to solve, requiring as it does, “only” a track record of Scottish governmental competence at HR, and some credible, costed, independently verified facts about how the residents of Scotland will each be better off after Independence.
Residents of Scotland, of course, being everybody in Scotland. As I see it, the incomers, like immigrants everywhere, are out for what they can get. Show them how they can get even more, and they will be hard YESs.
But if all of this is too difficult, that is a crying shame.
Anybody watch the Truss/Sunak debate the other night? I didn’t, but the reports of it in the MSM made a few things very clear. Magna Carta, Cromwell, and King Edward the first never came up once. The candidates were fixated on the economy and to Hell with ancient history.
It’s the economy, stupid.
How very true that is, even here in Scotland. Show us the fucking money for YES.
This is excellent writing from Sarah Salyers on the missing constitution, it really is worth reading.
link to salvo1689.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com
Xaracen.
Thank you for responding to my questions I posed yesterday that were running around in my head, that was kind of you,
Reading through all you’re answers you clarified quite a few of them, and they made sense and much appreciated that you took the time, as these are questions that many others also maybe have been confused over,
The last one of those questions however I am a bit Slow to understand completely though.
As I understand it the english callander was not used just for parliamentary annual start session but was the callander used by all of England up to the Mid seventeen hundreds.
There are some historical accounts of how workers in England complained about missing wages when the Callander was changed.
If this is correct, All of England, not solely the English parliament annual sessions ran different dates from all of Scotland whom had been Working their country on a different Callander for many years previously.
On the basis that the two countries both ran very different Callander’s when the treaty of the union was signed,
The dates signed on that treaty show Englands parliament ratifying the Scottish Acts before Scotland actually passed the confirmation vote to join the treaty of the union,
I note that on the Actual treaty of the union England later has not signed a specific year date for ratifiying or for acceptance by themselves or a date from the Crown.
This is one of those hazy moments in history
We know that in the mid 1700s all treaty dates were aligned after England changed to its new Callander, However this left 40 odd years of no coralition between the two sets of dates on the treaty of the union.
Amending it forty odd years later through the New British created parliament in the mid seventeen hundreds does not alter the fact that space of those years Englands parliament officially agreed to the Scots parliament Joining the treaty of the union by date several months before The Scottish parliament had made that decision.
It also breaks the treaty of the union by altering any original dates on the treaty of the union by the British Parliament does it not?
If it was not an important issue to and for the treaty of the union , why bother changing Englands signed dates to be the [ same ] as Scotland’s.
Did the British parliament suddenly realise that according to the official dates on the treaty of the union they had pre- empted The agreed union from Scotland?
“Residents of Scotland, of course, being everybody in Scotland. As I see it, the incomers, like immigrants everywhere, are out for what they can get. Show them how they can get even more, and they will be hard YESs.”
Main @4.18pm.
Bollocks, over 72% of folk for elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland voted no in 2014, we know that most of them would’ve come from England, and that those that identified as British not Scottish, which would also include the incomers group from rest of the UK, besides Scots, voted no to the tune of 90%.
The Wee Blue Book and Salmond’s White Paper clearly stated Scotland’s path on how to make Scotland a more richer fairer progressive country.
We could however persuade a small amount of folk above the 47% 49% figure to take us over the line, but not with that treacherous shit hunkered down in Bute House, she’ll f*ck it right up, and that’s probably the plan.
John Main.
It is not that the independence road is to difficult to travel, in fact it should be a joyful jouney.
For me it is recognising that it is the wrong road we have mistakenly took, by listening and being guided by politicians into a dead end valley. With no water, no food, no fuel , to die of exhaustion and fatigue or old age.
I would travel as many miles as it took with hard YESSERs and soft NOs to reach our destination.
This route is simply the wrong route as long as politicians are supplying all of us ( with their ) road map.
And that leads us to their dead end valley. corralled.
We are striving and trying to reach a finishing line that keeps being repainted as a goal further into the distance resembling a mirage.
We should retrace our steps to the source, the beginning to find our rightful path, our road and journey will become shorter.
John Main says:
27 July, 2022 at 4:04 pm
For those retaining some affection, regard and admiration for Gandhi, I can assure you he does not feature in the 8 Historical Figures Who Were Worse Than Hitler site, to name but one.
Out of curiousity, I looked at said list and find it ludicrous that it has Genghis Khan coming out on top. For what? Centuries of butthurt to the Chinese and Persians, both of whom discovered the hard way they’d picked the wrong Mongolian to bully and they weren’t quite the master races both thought they were?
While his reputation as some sort of enlightened version of Vlad the Impaler takes some swallowing, his was the first empire which had full freedom of religious worship, gave education a blank cheque, attempted to operate a true meritocracy, banned torture and slavery, and was the first to attempt a redistribution of wealth so that the majority prospered under the Mongol empire and had a vested interest in its continuation rather than purely the fear of reprisals if they rebelled.
Also, for the EU nuts out there, it was the first to implement free trade, massively increasing the exchange of goods across his far flung empire across a road network only bandits with a death wish would attempt robbing anyone on.
Besides, his seventeen times great grandson wrote the song “Two Pints Of Lagar And A Packet Of Crisps, Please!” so he can’t have been all that bad.
This from Grousebeater.
“£3,000 to £5,000 in bursaries and scholarships are being offered to students from England, Wales and NI to entice them to study in Scotland. They can vote in an IndyRef franchise. (We don’t charge our students tuition fees; numbers are capped.)”
link to twitter.com
And this from Sturgeon’s fanzine the National.
“STUDENTS from across the UK who are at universities north of the Border at the time of independence should be eligible for Scottish citizenship, according to a proposal which has put forward for the SNP conference.”
“All British students from rUK currently studying, or with accepted places, in Scottish universities at the time of independence will be considered ‘habitually resident’ in Scotland at the successful conclusion of their degree programme, and therefore be eligible for Scottish citizenship,” the resolution states.”
The Edinburgh Central and Newington and Southside branches, of the SNP have drawn up the suggestion, what makes them think that the students will vote yes to indy and remain in Scotland, why even take this risk, I doubt any other nation would on such an important constitutional matter, and to boot we’re offering them thousands of pounds of enticement to come to Scotland, when there’s a cost of living crisis going on.
I think the SNP know fine well that students from the rest of the UK will vote in the majority to keep Scotland tied to the union, the SNP must NOT be allowed anywhere near an indyref.
We must vote Alba and get Sturgeon, and her spineless and gutless hoarde (SNP MPS and MSPs) out.
link to 12ft.io
I just mentioned this today, sacked for standing up for workers WTF has Labour become, Red Tories must be the answer.
“A SENIOR Labour MP has been sacked for appearing on the RMT picket line in support of striking workers.
Sam Tarry, Labour’s shadow minister for buses and local transport, went against instructions from Keir Starmer to stay away from strikes taking place across the UK.
The party said he had been dismissed because he had broken the code of “collective responsibility” among the Labour frontbench, which requires senior MPs to have their media appearances approved by party high command.”
link to 12ft.io
James che says:
27 July, 2022 at 3:18 pm
I may call it a day here after today for a while.
Best news I have read here for ages. Can you persuade RoS do to the same?
@ Mark Boyle 27 July, 2022 at 5:37 pm
Genghis Khan for FM!
One day scientists may indeed develop the technology to re-create living organisms from fragments of preserved DNA. Should that happen, those with some smarts will have much better projects to work on than dinosaurs and the like.
Haud oan though. RoS is adamant that no new Scot can ever be persuaded in favour of Indy, so I guess we will have to put poor old neo-Genghis down as a hard NO.
What a waste.
Bollocks, over 72% of folk for elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland voted no in 2014, we know that most of them would’ve come from England, and that those that identified as British not Scottish, which would also include the incomers group from rest of the UK, besides Scots, voted no to the tune of 90%.
Thought experiment for all the nativist fans of franchise restriction out there: since you’re so convinced that the 2014 result was swung from Yes to No due to (mainly) English and/or rest of UK voters voting overwhelmingly No, what about if things were reversed?
Let’s say a future referendum was won due to (say) non-UK born voters tipping the balance to Yes, when “native” Scots voted narrowly against…..would you argue it wasn’t legitimate?
Would you fuck….!
Rather than constantly obsessing about blanket disenfranchisement of “mud bloods”, why not concentrate your efforts on say…convincing more people to support indy or increasing turnout? Indyref 2014 turnout was pretty impressive at 85%, by 92.5% voted in the 1995 Quebec referendum. An extra 7.5% voting in Scotland would be around 330,000 extra votes.
The figures I can find online for Scottish higher education student numbers (dated January 2022) show approx 280K students in total, of which approx 180K are domiciled in Scotland.
So, as a first approximation, I think we can say that there are 100K foreign students, who as RoS asserts, may be considered to be hard NOs in any future Indy ref.
Let’s play a silly game and take the worst case scenario, applied to the 2014 Indy ref.
Assumptions:
1) There were 100K foreign students in Scotland in 2014, all of whom voted NO.
2) We can magically discount their votes to see how the result changes.
In 2014, No got approx 2 million votes. Subtract 100K to give us 1.9 million.
In 2014, Yes got approx 1.6 million votes.
So, disenfranchising foreign students would have returned the same result, with a 300K disparity.
However, permitting the foreign students to vote, but persuading them to vote Yes (by dangling the carrot of a prosperous future in a rich, meritocratic, incomer-friendly, Scotland) could have upped Yes to 1.7 million votes. Still the same result, but the disparity is down to 200K.
Makes you think, eh?
@ Andy Ellis says:27 July, 2022 at 7:53 pm
Good post.
In the simplest possible terms, persuading a No to Yes is twice as powerful as simply deleting a No.
Both processes reduce the No count by 1. But the No to Yes process also increases the Yes count by 1.
Haha, just don’t call it conversion therapy.
@ John Main at 8.04pm
That’s a very simplistic one dimensional take on it. Here’s another.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
“Was Gandhi more violent than Hitler?“
link to timesofindia.indiatimes.com
Slavoj Zizek says he was.
To be sure, Gandhi himself conceded that India would probably have achieved independence 10 years earlier if it wasn’t for his non-violence doctrine.
That’s ten unnecessary years under the imperialist cosh and millions of lives that might have been saved, including several million who died as a consequence of Britain’s handling of the famine during WWII.
Life expectancy in India in 1940 was about 27 years old, up from a low of around 20 years, in 1905. After independence, life expectancy steadily improved and famines have been “successfully contained by the Indian government”, so that “there has been no major famine in India since 1943.
link to en.wikipedia.org
What people tend to forget is that colonialism is inherently violent. If your country’s resources and best people are being extracted for the benefit of another country, that naturally comes at a cost in terms of health, poverty, social problems, etc.
I shouldn’t need to explain any of that to Scottish people. Join the dots.
If it’s franchise groundhog day again then it’s only fair we do a Quiz Time revival too…
Who said:
“Tightening the criteria in ways that excluded temporary residents is a no brainer…“
Andy Ellis, there’s a subtle difference between a thought experiment and a slab of steaming horse shit.
The point that you cannot escape with your ridiculous experiments is that people from England living in Scotland absolutely do exhibit bias when it comes to the issue of independence and voting. That’s a fact, not a supposition. The data is clear on that.
Now, back to your unionist drawing board, little boy.
Ahh chas you are so obvious.
If you re-read it I said for a while, until the Scots across Scotland realise they do not need to go through the political game of playing talking lies in the field of the treaty of the union,
that they are falsely and deliberately being led astray by the devolved Scottish government and wastemonster.
As an group or singularly Scots are sovereign,
Which is another thing they have to wake up to,
Where does it state that there has to be more than a hundred sovereign Scots to use the claim of right as a %.
Where does it state an english devolved government placed in Scotland will have dictate over Sovereign Scots , no parliament is sovereign above the Scots, it is wise to pause until a few catch up.
The devolved parliament in Scotland is not a legal entity as part of the treaty of the union agreed Articles.
It took but a few Hundred Scots to supposedly enter into a treaty, it requires the same amount to if not less to exit.
And remember that over three quarters of Scots did not vote to join the treaty of the union in 1707,
( ie) NO X marks the spot, No Signatures from the rest of Scots on that treaty,
In any court that could be construed as missing evidence
Nor were any elections held in Scotland to choose representatives by the Sovereign Scots to enter into a treaty.
Yet they considered it in the English parliament and then decided not to ask them,
Whoops error.
The Scots as a nation were not part of the agreement, no evidence to say they were. English parliament Error.
Now see what you have done Chas,
Andy,
The whole question put to Scots in 2014 was faux question,
The Scots never voted to join the treaty of the union, provide the missing evidence please.
“Let’s say a future referendum was won due to (say) non-UK born voters tipping the balance to Yes, when “native” Scots voted narrowly against…..would you argue it wasn’t legitimate?”
Ellis.
Lets not play your fantasy games lets stick to the facts more than 72% of incomers mainly English nativists (as you are so fond of saying) voted NO to Scottish independence.
Almost 53% of those who had a degree also voted no in 2014, yet as I pointed out further up the thread, the Scottish government wants to enfranchise what will more than likely be English nativist students flocking up to Scotland to receive between £3k and 5k to entice them up to Scotland, and going by the 2014 results and degree holders they’ll vote no.
A kind of thanks for the cheap education and the bung, but no thanks to independence, we’d be stark raving mad to enfranchise English nativist student on such an important constitutional matter.
“Tightening the criteria in ways that excluded temporary residents is a no brainer…“
There is a case to be made for change. I, and others who are pretty viscerally opposed to much of the franchise restriction narrative would I’m sure be open to common sense changes. It makes no sense for students – here or anywhere else – to have (effectively) 2 votes. I’ve always thought it was wrong, even when I was a student myself. The way to address such issues is to reform the system, yes.
Reforming the system however doesn’t mean we should throw the civic nationalist baby out with the bath water. We all know there are plenty of extremists posting BTL in here who seriously want to exclude ALL non-native born Scots from voting in a referendum, and many who even if they don’t go that far would happily disenfranchise those without ridiculously long residence periods of 10, 15 or 20 years.
Again, it’s been pointed out that NO other self determination referendums use such criteria, but nativists don’t care. To them Scotland is somehow a special case, which can and should go out on a limb and do something virtually no other country has done. It’s as disingenuous as it is regressive.
I’ve also said I could be persuaded that a 24 month residence criteria would be defensible as there’s a precedent in a few other self determination referendums, but I still reckon it’s both politically unwise and unnecessary. Franchise restriction is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Rev Stu’s words remain true:
“If you want to deny 20% of the people who live in Scotland the vote in a referendum because they were born somewhere else, we’re not on the same side. If you want their votes, fucking well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit.”
James Che
What a load of crap your last post is. To be honest the one before that was the same, and the one previous to that and the one…….
How many people on here and in Scotland overall, do you think are remotely interested in 300 year old stuff, together with your flawed logic in your puerile attempts to interpret it? You seem to think that is you and only you who has discovered some magic formula!
Just go…………….please and do us all a favour.
“What a load of crap your last post is. To be honest the one before that was the same, and the one previous to that and the one”
Funny that Chas I was thinking the same about your last post.
James Che stick around, even if its just annoy usual suspects.
Chas, it’s a 300 year old treaty that the independence movement is trying to extricate Scotland from. If you aren’t interested in 300 year old treaties, I think it’s you that should consider just going…
The Scots never voted to join the treaty of the union, provide the missing evidence please.
I don’t really give a shit what happened 300 years ago James. Only a handful of nutters get a semi droning on about it ad nauseam. We didn’t have universal suffrage in 1707.
Our right to self determination as a people, and our ability to make it happen, would exist just the same if the Treaties didn’t exist and if Scotland had no more experience of being an independent historically than Yorkshire or Flanders.
@Hatuey 8:24pm
I don’t get what you are saying here?. Are you advocating violence? Talk about historical figures is interesting but can be countered by equally valid examples where violence has failed to deliver the required solution. Let’s take a local example although there are others. Northern Ireland, the historical revisionist view from the IRA themselves was the troubles prevented a unified Ireland. See Gerry Adams statements on that. The IRA lost the war by their own admission. They tired of violence. The good Friday Agreement stabilised the situation and Sinn Fein are making electoral progress of sorts. Will it lead to a unified Ireland? Who knows. But if they do it will be achieved by a unification referendum.
James Che Hatuey RoS
Three individuals who are best to be ignored. The problem is, between them, they post up to 20 times per day. Saying the same things over and over and over and over again. No answers, no solutions except the mythical ‘WE’.
They have failed to grasp that the MAJORITY of the electorate currently do NOT want Independence. Any ‘waverer’ looking at this site would run a mile reading the output you continually produce.
My last response to the dreamers.
“Our right to self determination as a people, and our ability to make it happen, would exist just the same if the Treaties didn’t exist and if Scotland had no more experience of being an independent historically than Yorkshire or Flanders.”
What a crock.
I posted the link to this James Che is spot and his comment on the Claim of Right is as relevant today as the Claim was when it was written down all those years ago, in the end it will more than likely be what saves Scots from this vile union.
Enfranchising English nativists as Sturgeon wants to do will lead nowhere.
link to salvo1689.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com
Andy Ellis 9.05
Spot on. Prepare from the incoming dross from the afflicted.
“They have failed to grasp that the MAJORITY of the electorate currently do NOT want Independence.”
Chas.
What you fail to grasp is that even with the Britnat Sturgeon doing her best to destroy the indy movement, support for it still hovers around the 47% mark, which is remarkable, when you think that the full might of the Britnat state and its SNP puppets are running the show.
Imagine what the figure would be if we had a real indy minded FM in charge and not some Westminster puppet.
The point that you cannot escape with your ridiculous experiments is that people from England living in Scotland absolutely do exhibit bias when it comes to the issue of independence and voting. That’s a fact, not a supposition. The data is clear on that.
You might like to try and engage with what people actually say, not shit you randomly make up. Of course some people from England exhibit bias. So do a hell of a lot of native Scots. More than 80% of the electorate are native born. A significant proportion of “New Scots” support independence, I’d wager far more now than in 2014 given brexit and the Tories record since 2014.
Not being able to construct a majority out of that is the issue, not a relative handful of student voters, second home owners or folk who might vote the wrong way.
There are more votes to be gained increasing turnout and persuading No voters to switch than in trying to make windows in to folk’s souls and disenfranchising targeted groups.
Regressive nativists are so busy burnishing their turd they just haven’t noticed the reek.
“The point that you cannot escape with your ridiculous experiments is that people from England living in Scotland absolutely do exhibit bias when it comes to the issue of independence and voting.”
I agree Hatuey, selfish English nativists, in most part would vote no, simply for their own selfish reasons not to lose Scotland no need for passports, its cheaper to buy stuff or a house in Scotland, holidays etc and to keep a hold of the Golden Goose so to speak, its the unconscious imperial regressive English nativist mindset at play from top to bottom.
If you want to lose a indyref give this lot the vote that seems to be the plan.
RoS
I grasp a whole lot more than you. Is that 47% of the electorate or 47% of those who expressed a view? Two entirely different things.
No one loathes Sturgeon and the SNP more than me. Bunter and the Tories are equally despised.
You and your romantic, uneducated cronies on here cannot seem to accept that the ONLY way Scotland will ever gain Independence is if enough people put a cross on a ballot box. Do you really think that Westminster, the Courts, the EU, Nato, the United Nations or the inhabitants of planet Zog are going to wake up and say ‘Hold on a minute-Scotland have been treated unfairly in the 300 year old treaties-let’s repeal them tomorrow and give Scotland their Independence’? How do you think that the MAJORITY who currently do NOT want Independence would react to that?
Your arguments, together with those of the other dreamers, have nothing positive to add and actually hinder any Independence movement. Life is not fair, never has been, never will be. Look forwards instead of continually backwards. Go on-try it!.
@Chas 9:48pm
Agreed the ballot box only. I have been increasingly concerned about the posts advocating violence, that is very damaging to the Independence movement. Spoken by people that have never been on active service or had to deal with someone dead in front of you through violence. Anyway all information is valuable. I found out how you tell someone is dead and not comatose during that life experience. Place your finger over the bared eye. No reaction their dead. It’s to do with asymptomatic and symptomatic body reaction apparently. Graphic I know but necessary to ameliorate the call to arms that will end badly. Concern yourself with replacing Sturgeon before you get frisky. And stop watching violent movies.
“I grasp a whole lot more than you. Is that 47% of the electorate or 47% of those who expressed a view?”
Chas.
Yet you don’t even grasp what the 47% figure represents, that’s laughable.
As for this.
” Do you really think that Westminster, the Courts, the EU, Nato, the United Nations or the inhabitants of planet Zog are going to wake up and say ‘Hold on a minute-Scotland have been treated unfairly in the 300 year old treaties-let’s repeal them tomorrow and give Scotland their Independence’? ”
Its not up to any of the above to decide Scotland’s future, its for Scots to decide, try reading this to see just how fragile your precious union is.
link to salvo1689.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com
We’re only still tied to this putrid union because we have a treacherous b*stard of an FM, surrounded by gutless and spineless acolytes (SNP MPs and MSPs) who are utterly self-serving.
“I have been increasingly concerned about the posts advocating violence”
George Ferguson.
You mean like the British state did with the Chagossian people, but tell me George whose advocating violence in here?
@ Hatuey says:27 July, 2022 at 8:24 pm
“Was Gandhi more violent than Hitler?
Slavoj Zizek says he was.”
Cheers, Hatuey. I am now convinced that Gandhi was more violent than the 20th Century’s second most prolific mass murderer. [chuckles]
“famines have been “successfully contained by the Indian government”, so that “there has been no major famine in India since 1943”
And there was me thinking India became independent in 1947, in which case, 4 years of successful containment of major famines can be credited to government under your so-called “imperialist cosh”.
Jeezo, Hatuey, first logic, and now arithmetic. Is there no end to your limitations?
@Republicofscotland 10:22pm
Read some of the posts above as a start. Also tell me, the money and source of SALVO who is behind it?. Why is that a big secret?. Also SALVO means an Artillery barge, violent in of itself. I beginning to think they are the Natural Law Party. Let’s bungee jump over the bed that’s sure to get Independence. I am a cynic, been lied to many times before especially by the SNP.
@Republicofscotland says:27 July, 2022 at 10:22 pm
“tell me George whose advocating violence in here?”
You haven’t noticed RoS? Then read the posts more carefully.
Myself, I find it passing amusing that posts which really do look like MI5 fishing for evidence of potential law breaking attract hardly any comment on here, whereas honest differences of opinion bring down an avalanche of conspiracy theorising and accusations of BritNat meddling.
But as somebody else has just pointed out, the regular pebble-dashes by some of the carpet-gnawing stalwarts BTL do more to maintain support for No than any reasoned questioning of the case for Yes ever will.
Violence doesn’t need me to advocate for it, George, in case you didn’t notice.
An old soldier like you should know that 😉
Thank you Neale! Already thanked Kenny. This is what the SNP should have been doing instead of taking the perks and settling in.
Actually the word Salvo has interesting and very relevant historical origins, from the Latin ‘Act salvo jure cujuslibet’ meaning something like to everyone without prejudice. Thus;
“From 1592 to 1707, the Scottish Parliament acknowledged the sovereignty of the people by offering ‘salvo’ at the end of every session: any person who wished to do so was invited to challenge any legislation that prejudiced their civil rights or freedoms. (It was made law by the Act salve jure cujuslibet in 1663.)”
It has nothing to do with artillery.
@Hatuey 10:52pm
Of course but I was hoping to appeal to your intelligence and your inner statesman. Young men need guidance. They are passionate about Scottish Independence and that is commendable. It’s how to make it happen. I think Sturgeons time has passed. She is devoid of ideas and without a good team behind her. And has manufactured the ultimate folly of the introduction of Greens into cabinet. Paranoic in her succession with no where to go, with only the Woke BBC Scotland keeping her in office. Unfortunately for them the evidence is being gathered.
George,
Violence and the threat of violence has been successfully used throughout history.
That’s just a matter of fact.
Violence is being used by countries all over the world at this very moment, our government is currently advocating for it. Some on here agree with that position and may even have voluntarily offered funds for it.
I’m not advocating violence, I’m talking about it’s use.
Scotland is right now in a position where it doesn’t need to use violence to achieve it’s aims, it hasn’t always been this way.
Accepting that violence has been part of human history is not advocating for it.
If there is anything you disagree with or needs clarification, let me know.
@Hatuey 11:04pm
Salvo has a military connection used in common language amongst Artillery units. You are arguing semantics in your analysis of derivation and origin of the word. I am using common sense and modern usage of the word. I guess that sums up our approach to Independence. Somebody is living in 1700 oatcake and somebody is living in 2022.
@Breastplate 11:15pm
I give an example of where violence didn’t achieve the objective.
Yes George,
There are always winners and losers.
I did not say that violence always succeeds, you may have inferred that, I certainly did not imply that.
@george Nobody cares what your definition of Salvo is or what the word conjures up in your mind.
You asked why they had chosen the name Salvo and presumed or implied it had something to do with artillery and violence, and you were wrong.
It’s okay to be wrong sometimes. No need to get crotchety.
Its not up to any of the above to decide Scotland’s future, its for Scots to decide, try reading this to see just how fragile your precious union is.
Well, no. If that were the case Catalonia would be an independent country, everyone would recognise the independence of the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus, Somaliland, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria and both China and your mate Vlad’s homelands would disintegrate in to a patchwork quilt that would make the Balkans look united.
Scots having the political balls to actually vote for and take their independence is the necessary precondition for the international community to accept our self determination. The former without the latter isn’t going to help, however earnestly extremists insist we just have to use their cunning plans for indy and it will magically propel us to the sunny uplands of freedom.
We’re only still tied to this putrid union because we have a treacherous b*stard of an FM, surrounded by gutless and spineless acolytes (SNP MPs and MSPs) who are utterly self-serving.
Utter bollocks I’m afraid. Sturgeon and her acolytes are a symptom, not a cause. We’re still tied to this union because we haven’t persuaded enough ordinary Scots that the benefits of independence outweigh the risks, and that the costs of the union outweigh the benefits.
The policies and personalities of the current SNP certainly contribute to our collective failure, but there are multiple reasons: attributing the totality of the failure to one cause is vapid even by the already low standards of some of the posters BTL here. The only people to blame for the fact we’re not already independent are Scottish voters, not the SNP, not the MSM, not “New Scots”, and not the WEF / NATO / EU / space lizards OK?
Of course, it’s much easier to attribute our own failures to the ill intent of others (even where it is largely illusory or over-egged) than to admit the fault lies a lot closer to home.
Ellis,
We’re back to Schrödinger’s Scotland again.
You like to accuse others of using a false equivalence.
Is Scotland a country?
Is Catalonia a country?
Is the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus a country?
Is Somaliland a country?
Is Abkhazia a country?
Is South Ossetia a country?
Is Transnistria a country?
Apples and oranges.
Is anybody else have trouble getting on to this site?
Breastplate
It’s not rocket science, even for some of the hard of thinking in here surely? Arguably all of the above are “countries” if the people of those places decide they want to be independent. Whether they are accepted as sovereign states is a different matter. There are now quite a few unrecognised countries in the world: is that the kid of future you want for Scotland? Northern Cyprus without the sun? Recognised solely by Turkey, no access to international organisations and institutions?
The proponents of “cunning plans for indy” and abrogation of the Treaties of Union and other such frantic constitutional pin head dancing are free to insist all they like that they have this covered, and that all we have to do is follow the sage advice of Salvo, Sara Salyers and the SSRG to achieve independence, and that international recognition either doesn’t matter or will somehow be automatic, but wiser heads are entitled to point out it ain’t necessarily so.
Just because a handful of folk in here have an unshakeable belief in Scottish exceptionalism and is being a special case doesn’t actually make it so to the international community.
RepublicofScotland yesterday @6:17pm
Without wishing to underestimate the influence, if any, of Gordon Brown recently; what odds Sir Kier is one of the good guys after all – and was simply using insider knowledge to protect his MPs from arbitrary or malicious prosecutions lest due diligence elsewhere ensured records were kept of the number of potential heart attacks, confrontation points, missed appointments, etc. arising and it was subsequently discovered that everyone supporting the action is/was wilfully exposing people to a risk of death equivalent (or significantly greater once more traditional train crashes are ignored) than that able to be substantiated for the Margaret Ferrier trial..
Every club/organisation/political party/loose collection of individuals attracts people who can politely be described as fringe lunatics.
Said people tend to be extremely narrow minded in their views and can be obsessive in their attempts to continually try and convince others irrespective of what others may think.
Sometimes they are well intentioned but simply lack clarity of thought.
It is not too difficult to spot them on here.
Andy,
You have already stated categorically in earlier exchanges that Scotland is a country, I agree with this.
The others you mentioned on the list are not, I don’t need to be vague about it to give myself some wriggle room.
They may be in the future but right now they are not.
In the here and now, Scotland is a country, the others are not.
We are all indoctrinated to a certain extent to believe Scotland is less than what it is, 300 years of being told Scotland is shite could be a factor.
Propaganda is a powerful tool.
The spirit of independence is roaming the land in search of a backbone for support, the non actions of the nationalist establishment helping little in that endeavour.
But, hey, the Com. Games are here.
One big happy family of remnants of empire.
Scots can be proud to march with the Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Guernsey.
If you can’t beat them join them and be content with your lot.
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
Also,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with fighting on different fronts, there’s no need for us to be 1 dimensional in our endeavours for self determination, cunning plans or not.
@Andy Ellis says:28 July, 2022 at 7:48 am
“Sturgeon and her acolytes are a symptom, not a cause. We’re still tied to this union because we haven’t persuaded enough ordinary Scots that the benefits of independence outweigh the risks, and that the costs of the union outweigh the benefits.”
Amen to that.
John Main,
That’s one of the reasons but by no means the only one.
George Ferguson 10.36pm.
George so you have no evidence of anyone advocating violence, just a hunch, and that the word Salvo means to fire artillery, just brilliant George, you are PM material that’s for sure.
Salvo.
“From 1592 to 1707, the Scottish Parliament acknowledged the sovereignty of the people by offering ‘salvo’ at the end of every session: any person who wished to do so was invited to challenge any legislation that prejudiced their civil rights or freedoms. It was made law by the Act salve jure cujuslibet in 1663.”
“Well, no. If that were the case Catalonia would be an independent country,”
Here we go with the round and round same old shite, once and for all Catalonia isn’t a country its a region of Spain that wants to breakaway from Spanish rule.
Scotland is a country the elder of the two in this diabolical union, a union created by a treaty which did not remove the sovereign will of the Scottish people via its Claim of Right.
In England the monarch is sovereign but in Scotland its the people that are sovereign, it will be for us and us alone to decide.
Salvo are trying to inform people of this, that the Claim of Right has been hidden from Scots view mainly by this man Albert Venn Dicey for centuries and Salvo are trying to inform folk that its not Westminster or the monarch that is sovereign in Scotland but the people themselves.
link to salvo1689.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com
Call me old fashioned, but having to gain recognition, and therefore conforming to the vision deemed acceptable by the un-elected “international community” ain’t really that much to aspire to.
Ya ken, that same “international community” that has effectively steered the trajectory of the planet to where we are now.
Aye lets just be part of the same group of psycho fuckers that bring us endless wars, inequality, insatiable planet trashing consumerism of shitey quality products shipped around the globe by muckle dirty fuel burning cargo ships, tell us to buy a
diesel(retro throwback) electric car cause they are the future, put “green” ethanol in our fuel to fuck things up and make you buy even more shitey imported products, etc, etc.Thought the whole point of Scotland returning to being a self-governing country is so we can better control our own destiny in a positive way by making better use of our own unique attributes based on our geographical position.
“Utter bollocks I’m afraid. Sturgeon and her acolytes are a symptom, not a cause. We’re still tied to this union because we haven’t persuaded enough ordinary Scots that the benefits of independence outweigh the risks, and that the costs of the union outweigh the benefits.”
Ellis.
Salmond took us from the low 20s to 47+ percent, a remarkable feat considering the full weight of the Britnat media machine the Civil Service, the security services and the House Jocks all did their best to undermine the 2014 indyref.
Sturgeon has been FM for eight years and we’ve gone backwards on the indyfront, even though the like of Brexit which was an open goal has came and gone without a peep from that treacherous shit.
Instead of dissolving this god awful union the betrayer has focused on her agenda and many notable indy bloggers and supporters have found themselves under the microscope of the COPFS and Police Scotland and we know why.
If we’d have had a strong minded indy FM in place of the betrayer at Bute House Scots would’ve dissolved this ball and chain union within the last eight years. We need Sturgeon out of Bute House, her spineless and gutless SNP MSPs and MPs have stayed silent on what’s she’s done to Scotland over the last eight years they prefer to keep their snouts pressed firmly into the taxpayers trough instead of standing up for Scotland.
In the here and now, Scotland is a country, the others are not.
I doubt many people in those places listed would agree with you, or accept your right to tell them that they don’t qualify as countries whereas Scotland does. Catalonia in particular has just as much right to be considered a country in its own right as Scotland. The situations of the different entities around the world seeking to change their current status are all different of course, but there are also similarities and commonalities.
The Catalan situation is different because there’s a linguistic angle which is less important here, whatever one’s views on the status of Scots as a language. The Catalan situation is different because Spain refuses to acknowledge the Catalan’s right to secede without “permission” from the rest of Spain because of a spurious argument that their constitution forbids it.
In the end however, every people has the right to self determination. Getting from that starting point to the actual establishment of a new state is a different thing however. The e UN is full of countries that were never independent historically, never recognised as countries at all, many of them with far less going for them than relatively advanced countries like Scotland or Catalonia.
The fact Scotland has an international football team and Catalonia or Bavaria or Quebec don’t, or that some Scots get over excited about the unique status afforded to us by our history or 300 year old treaties and Claim of Right don’t mean that the rest of the world will cut us some special deal and prioritise our case or give us preferential treatment not available for other places you’ve taken it upon yourself to write off as “not like us”.
Breastplate says:
28 July, 2022 at 8:29 am
Ellis,
We’re back to Schrödinger’s Scotland again.
You like to accuse others of using a false equivalence.
Is Scotland a country?
Is Catalonia a country?
Is the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus a country?
Is Somaliland a country?
Is Abkhazia a country?
Is South Ossetia a country?
Is Transnistria a country?
Apples and oranges.
Er … Somaliland is a country as much as Scotland is beyond dispute.
They were forced into a merger with Somalia in 1960 when its elected representatives decided to unite with the Italian held protectorate after a mere five days of independence from Britain, without bothering to ask those who elected them if they wanted it first (sounds familiar?)
To no one’s surprise but the west’s, Somalia quickly became a brutal dictatorship and by 1978 Somaliland began to fight for its independence again. Since 1991, Somaliland has been de facto independent, even if the United Nations refuses to recognise it – under pressure from its five permanent Security Council members which objects to uppity blacks having the termacity to decide they know what’s best for themselves rather than their “betters”.
It received help from Taiwan in oil exploration and is likely to become a significant producer certainly by the end of the decade (perhaps sooner due to current events …).
“Thought the whole point of Scotland returning to being a self-governing country is so we can better control our own destiny in a positive way by making better use of our own unique attributes based on our geographical position.”
That should be the plan Dan, but not with the betrayer at the helm that’s for sure.
Here we go with the round and round same old shite, once and for all Catalonia isn’t a country its a region of Spain that wants to breakaway from Spanish rule.
Particularist fluffing I’m afraid. Most folk abroad and most countries we’ll be relying on to recognise our independence don’t care about some Scottish nationalist’s assertions that Scotland is a special case. They know little and care less about Scottish history and constitutional minutiae, however much it excites those in Scotland who are hung up on it. They may if you’re lucky concede that Scotland’s situation and history make it different in some respects from other “candidate” cases for potential independence like Catalonia or Quebec, but that doesn’t mean they’re invested in stroking the egos of those boring for their country about 300 year old treaties.
To most abroad, Scotland isn’t that different to Catalonia, Quebec, Flanders, Bavaria or any number of other potentially independent states: we’re just a region with a more colourful history and different accent. Our national football teams, unique legal system and different state religion don’t make us that special in their eyes. They’ll happily recognise an independent Catalonia before an independent Scotland if the circumstances are right and the Spanish position changed in the future.
The motto of this story is: just because yer mammy tells you you’re special, doesn’t make it true.
I consider that if there were a point of birth of a sense of nationhood it is contained in this document.
link to en.wikipedia.org
All the rest seems redundant.
According to the Welsh historian David Crouch the Declaration signals that,
“The two nations were mutually hostile kingdoms and peoples, and the ancient idea of Britain as an informal empire of peoples under the English king’s presidency was entirely dead.”
ANDY ELLIS.
If you do not consider yourself «special», certainly no one else will.
It is all in the presentation of that «special». Some countries are rather better at it than their case might merit.
Scots do need to cast off that drab Knoxian cringe.
Here’s a better and more apt thought experiment…
Imagine 100 women in a workplace were going to have a vote on whether or not trans women (biological men) were to be allowed to use the toilets too.
Would Andy or anyone else on that side of the franchise debate argue that trans women (biological men) ought to be allowed to vote too?
That should work.
“To most abroad, Scotland isn’t that different to Catalonia, Quebec, Flanders, Bavaria or any number of other potentially independent states:”
None of the above matters a jot, what matters is having a strong indy minded FM in Bute House the rest will fall into place, but first we need the betrayer out.
@ Dan and Republicofs: agree entirely – we need a sensible approach that puts the common good of people and planet as the number one priority. At the moment the “world leaders” are all on the side of global corporations and consumerism. Sensible? No it b…y isn’t.
O/T And look at the Labour Party, if you can bear to. If I were Sam Tarry I would be saying “I want the Keir Hardie party, NOT the Keir Starmer version” and would resign the whip and try to form a real party for the underdogs.
@Dan says:28 July, 2022 at 10:42 am
“Thought the whole point of Scotland returning to being a self-governing country is so we can better control our own destiny in a positive way by making better use of our own unique attributes based on our geographical position”
Naw, Dan, I don’t know where you got that from.
The stereotype of the typical Scot is that of a mean, politically conservative (note lower-case ‘c’), mistrustful of change.
That translates to business much as usual after Indy, but with more folding money in our pockets, and many fewer English accents on our tellyboxes. We won’t care if English people continue to make all the important decisions (we do want Indy Scotland to be a welcoming meritocracy, right?), just so long as the front men and women (both cis and trans) talk colloquially.
All the Indy movement has to do is convincingly offer us what the majority of Scots want, and the soft NOs will convert to hard YESs overnight.
The “destiny” stuff is strictly for the birds.
Show us the fucking money.
Mark Boyle,
I really don’t know anything about Somaliland, I was countering Andy’s point about Scotland being in the same position as those he listed, Somaliland being one of them.
Breastplate.
Forget Somaliland, like South Sudan the Great Satan (USA) caused its intended breakaway, the former due to mineral assets the latter because of it important position on the Horn of Africa.
“From 1592 to 1707, the Scottish Parliament acknowledged the sovereignty of the people by offering ‘salvo’ at the end of every session: any person who wished to do so was invited to challenge any legislation that prejudiced their civil rights or freedoms. It was made law by the Act salve jure cujuslibet in 1663.”
The above gives me hope, cold you imagine this in action now, Christ with Sturgeon at the helm we can’t even demonstrate outside OUR parliament nevermind challenge legislation.
Andy Ellis,
I’m sure the people in the places you listed have differing views, I was asking if you thought they were countries or not.
Asking somebody if they thought a guy in a dress is a woman is different question from does that guy in a dress think he’s a woman.
You’ve already stated Scotland is a country, I asked if you thought the other places you named on the list are countries.
You’ve not answered the question on which your comparisons depend.
Of course there are similarities in this group’s struggle for self determination but they have different starting points.
Similar, not the same.
The crocodile sheds some tears.
“FIRST Minister Nicola Sturgeon has spoken out after figures revealed 2021 was the second worst on record for drugs deaths in Scotland.
Data published by the National Records of Scotland (NRS) on Thursday showed that 1330 people died last year from misuse of drugs.
This was down by nine on the record high of 1339, set during the pandemic year of 2020.”
link to 12ft.io
@ Ottomanboi says:28 July, 2022 at 11:16 am
Any woodcutters present when the Declaration Of Arbroath was written and signed?
Ploughmen perhaps?
What about chambermaids and other domestic servants?
Naw, it was a stitch-up by the elites of the time, nobles, abbots and barons, every one of them a land-owning male, owing fealty only to their God-given sovereign under God.
Its relevance to our democratic, anti-monarchist, anti-hereditary rights, multi-faith but mostly secular, 21st century Scotland is slim to non-existent.
Stirring language though, I’ll give you that.
Ellis/ Chas/ SkidMark Boyle;
Three individuals who are best to be ignored. The problem is, between them, they post up to 20 times per day. Saying the same things over and over and over and over again. No answers, no solutions except the mythical ‘WE’.
Ellis’ latest: Scotland is historically equal to Yorkshire or Catalonia sovereignty wise….
Same old unionist blah.
Republicofscotland says:
28 July, 2022 at 11:46 am
Breastplate.
Forget Somaliland, like South Sudan the Great Satan (USA) caused its intended breakaway, the former due to mineral assets the latter because of it important position on the Horn of Africa.
Somaliland made its break for independence at the very point Somalia switched sides in the Cold War and became an American puppet, so you could not be more wrong if you tried.
@James.
Well roared, Bottom!
Republicofscotland.
Andy cannot find evidence of Xs or signature that the majority of Scots joined the treaty of the union in 1707,
So he tries a bit of word smithing like Albert Dicey,
So what Dicey’ did was convince himself and others that the Scottish half of the treaty of the union no longer existed,
NICE ONE.
So the Great British Parliament is in a treaty of union with the English Parliament both of which because they are the same are Claiming sovereignty.
But the Scottish side of the treaty no longer exists but the country of Scotland does.
Whats not to like.
What an idiot Dicey was talking in Circles around his own theory.
@ Hatuey says:28 July, 2022 at 11:26 am
“Here’s a better and more apt thought experiment…
Imagine 100 women in a workplace were going to have a vote on whether or not trans women (biological men) were to be allowed to use the toilets too.
Would Andy or anyone else on that side of the franchise debate argue that trans women (biological men) ought to be allowed to vote too?”
Interesting (revealing?) analogies from Hatuey:
Scotland as a toilet.
Scots as cis, incomers as trans.
I guess, in Hatuey’s overheated cerebral desert, he just can’t progress past his hard-wired biases:
Native Scots vote Yes.
New Scots vote No.
ONLINE option to attend the SSRG conference running from 29th – 31st July – able to see everything and join in Q&A for £5.
Go to scottishsovereigntyresearchgroup.org to buy your tickets.
Hope to hear your voices there!
Breastplate
Some are, and some aren’t.
I’d accept that Catalonia is a country and think it would be kind of odd for any Scottish nationalist worth their salt to deny it. A case can certainly be made for places like Somaliland being a country, if that’s what the majority of the people there want it to become. Transnistria isn’t a country, it’s one of Vlad’s confections like the pretendy republics in the Donbas. Similarly with Northern Cyprus: it isn’t legitimate in the eyes of anyone apart from Turkey, because the Turks imposed an unequal and unjust partition on the island in breach of international law and agreements with other states.
Some of the Caucasian examples are more problematic: there does appear to be legitimate cause for the peoples in some of the breakaway parts of Georgia to want independence, but it’s become part of Vlad’s plan to destabilise and dominate the region and ultimately re-absorb them into some neo-USSR. We all know that Vlad wouldn’t recognise the rights of any peoples within the Russian federation to self determination, even if he purports to support the rights of ethnic Russians “planted” abroad, or Abkhazians and Ossetians to destabilise neighbours like Georgia. The Chechen’s would probably have merited most peoples consideration as a country before Vlad and his mates carpet bombed their country and installed compliant stooges to rule on their behalf.
The comparisons are valid. It’s the assertion – for that is all that it is – that Scotland is somehow sine qua non made mostly by chip on both shoulders “wha’s like us” types in here that’s invalid.
The problem here is any union minded bodies cannot accept Scotland as a Equal in the treaty of the union.
So they have attempted to down grade Scotlands parliamentary input to the treaty since 1707.and give a boost to their own low insecurities at the same time.
Meanwhile no evidence can be provided not only from those whom contest history and records here, but also in the great british parliament that over three quarters of Scots did not vote to join the treaty of the union,
As to there being no voting franchise back in 1706/07 that is not a correct statement and goes against the UK/ great british parliament of westminsters statement,
The the English parliament had dicussed wether to give the Scots a vote to join but decided not to as the Scots would probably vote against it.
Full awareness in the English parliaments 1706 and the great british parliament site in 2022 that the rest of Scotland and Scots in 1707 should have been allowed to vote.
So why try pull the wool over Scots eyes that there was no such thing as voting in 1706/07.
As a political democracy.
There was.
And it was decided against the Scots voting to join the treaty,
So we find no evidence on record or in history book or in universities that the rest Scots and Scotland joined the treaty, that they are in reality outside the inclusion of the treaty of the union 1707.
The British Parliament site in 2022 states that they decided against giving the Scots a democratic vote in 1707.
You obviously think the UK parliament is wrong to have that statement on their site in 2022. And you know better.
So In stead of word smithing and bluster directing the conversation else where , please provide a date recorded that this vote took place and all the Scots voted over all of Scotland to join the treaty of the union.
James che said, “Englands parliament officially agreed to the Scots parliament Joining the treaty of the union by date several months before The Scottish parliament had made that decision.”
I don’t believe that’s true, because it was understood well at the time by both sides’ commissioners who negotiated the articles of the Treaty that Scotland’s Parliament should ratify the Treaty first, because it was entirely probable the Treaty would be refused, and so there would be no point in taking it further. The English Parliament was far more keen to see the Treaty in place, but if they ratified it first it could still fall apart in Edinburgh, and all that prior time spent on it in England would be wasted.
It also makes no sense that England’s Parliament could ratify the Scottish Partliament’s key amendment to the Treaty, if the Scottish Parliament’s own considerations of the Treaty were still to happen. That amendment was the insertion of an obligation that Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty as cited in Scotland’s 1689 Claim of Right must be permanently upheld as a pre-condition of ratification.
James,
Astute 🙂
JOHN MAIN you write.
«Any woodcutters present when the Declaration Of Arbroath
was written and signed?
Ploughmen perhaps?
What about chambermaids and other domestic servants?
Naw, it was a stitch-up by the elites of the time, nobles,
abbots and barons, every one of them a land-owning male,
owing fealty only to their God-given sovereign under God.
Its relevance to our democratic, anti-monarchist, anti-
hereditary rights, multi-faith but mostly secular, 21st century
Scotland is slim to non-existent.
Stirring language though, I’ll give you that.»
You might argue the same of the Union treaty or indeed of anything of the sort, anywhere, well into the 19th century. However, Arbroath was concerned with the existential concept of nation, at the time something of an innovation. The dynamic of Arbroath was the formation of a unique sense of Scottish nationhood, formed from disparate elements, vis à vis a force intent upon impeding and destroying the means to that end.
1707, Arbroath’s antithesis, was/is concerned with the latter.
Choose your times, choose your élites, but do choose carefully.
Hasn’t taken long for Xaracen to get the measure of James Che’s bloviations has it?
Whom would have thought it?! 🙂
Mark Boyle @11.57.
Yet the head of AFRICOM Commander, General Townsend has said that the Great Satan (USA) is already building extensively at the Red Sea port of Berbera.
Townsend added the US in Somaliland would also be
“Serving as a maritime gateway in East Africa for the United States and its allies.
“Countering Iran’s presence in the Gulf of Aden and China’s growing regional military presence”
Xaracen.
Thanks for responding to my queries.
One wonders why the English parliament did not change its Callander in preperation for signing the treaty between the two parliaments knowing that the Callander dates would not corralate.
Scottish nationalism took the wrong turning when it embraced the prosaic civic variety.
Everything turned a shade of taupe.
Safe though.
Andy.
I am musing an simply making enquiries,
Where as you stated that there was no voting democracy in 1707,
uk parliament site is in opposition to you’re statement.
Since the actual question I asked you yesterday was for actual evidence being provided from you of when and what date did the majority of Scots in Scotland join the treaty of the union. Which you have actually avoided answering,
@ Ottomanboi says: 28 July, 2022 at 12:59 pm
“Arbroath was concerned with the existential concept of nation”
Excellent point. The Scottish nation, existing between the ever-shifting boundaries of the country of Scotland, populated by constantly changing tribes and groups, each one of which dealt with the realities of their time.
“You might argue the same of the Union treaty or indeed of anything of the sort, anywhere, well into the 19th century.”
I can and I do. Just because it is currently fashionable to decry, deny and lament everything our ancestors did and every belief they held to be self-evidently true, it doesn’t make it true that they were wrong, wrong and wrong again.
The Claim Of Right, like the Union of 1707, has been little more than dusty history for centuries and generations.
The Claim Of Right was written out of practical utility. The people of the time cared little, and certainly not enough to stop it happening.
Scotland & England were united in 1707. Again, the people of the time cared little, and certainly not enough to stop it happening.
The generations since then have lived in that reality. The fiction that we can suddenly and magically jump to a parallel universe where this reality can be denied is on a par with the gender fantasies, and may well spring from the same self-delusions.
Persuade Scots of the merits of Indy to get Indy. It’s not rocket science unless you try to make it so.
@ Republicofscotland says:28 July, 2022 at 1:14 pm
When the USA is knocked off the number one spot, who will inherit the “Great Satan” tag?
What will you call the USA then? “Auxiliary Satan” and “Former Satan” are both available.
Not saying this is imminent you understand, but if I was you I would give it some thought. Be prepared!
Xaracen,
If it occurred as you are suggesting with regards the treaty times and dates, ie as a presumption , it it still works out rather well for the Scottish side of the treaty between the two parliaments.
For England’s parliament to ratify an verify the Scots ” Claim of Right “into the treaty of the on the union,
Which has safe guarded the Scots Sovereignty and prevents the likes of Westminster and stupid Albert Dicey altering or annulling the Scottish parliaments side of the treaty of the union.
It also begs another question,
Why is Westminster under the illusion it is sovereign over Scots, and ignores that claim of right wrote into the treaty of union, in its attempts to prevent Scotland choosing to access the “Claim of Right” Under self determination.
After all Westminster confirmed the Scots “Claim of right” again in July 2018.
They either have to choose between the Scottish parliaments side of the treaty of the union being legally accurate as they ratified in 1707.
Or they have to break the treaty of the union Articles they ratified in England by claiming Sovereignty over all the Scots in the country of Scotland.
It is impossible for them to hold and work both versions.
It seems to me personally The British parliament, aka the English parliament have dug themselves into a hole that is now difficult for them to get out of.
Martin Lewis who actually cares about people reports that home energy costs set to reach £3,500.00 per annum in January with further increases expected.
10’s of Millions will need to go cold in Winter and inevitably thousands will die of hypothermia
Millions more will need to eat and clean less in order to put the heating on.
It seems the U.K. buys 4% of its gas from Russia.
There is no way Scotlands gas supplies couldn’t be tweeked by a small margin.
Another problem seems to be the crisis being due to a global shortage priced in Dollars.
You know how we left the EU as they Tories say it wasn’t working well how about our fuel being our fuel and priced in our currency.
Centricas profits up £1 Billion in the last quarter compared to last year.
Absolutely disgusting profiteering on the back of human suffering but I fully expect most Tories in power to be significant share holders so what do they care.
Lady on LBC says she is surprised we are not out on the street with placards but I think that will be happening soon with pitch forks.
The Bastille was better built than Westminster.
link to itv.com
I say the unions should stop funding the Red Tories altogether.
“ONE of Scotland’s most senior trade unionists has resigned from Labour and called for his union to disaffiliate from the party.
It comes in the wake of Sir Keir Starmer’s sacking of shadow transport minister Sam Tarry for attending a rail workers’ picket line at London’s Euston train station on Wednesday.
The MP went against Starmer’s instructions to stay away from the strikes taking place across the UK.
In a letter to the party, Kevin Lindsay, Scotland organiser for train drivers’ union Aslef, said the sacking was “just a step too far” for him to continue his membership of the party.”
link to 12ft.io
Republicofscotland says:
28 July, 2022 at 1:14 pm
Mark Boyle @11.57.
Yet the head of AFRICOM Commander, General Townsend has said that the Great Satan (USA) is already building extensively at the Red Sea port of Berbera.
Complete “whataboutery”.
Your claim was:
“Forget Somaliland, like South Sudan the Great Satan (USA) caused its intended breakaway … because of it important position on the Horn of Africa.”
And as I pointed out, the insurrection from 1978 onwards occured immediately after it had switched sides in the Cold War and Somalia had become an AMERICAN satellite.
That America has chosen to diss off one of its regional allies and is doing deals with what it still sees as a “breakaway province” is simply par for the course for the most fair weather friend any nation could wish for … as Britain discovered during the Falklands War, until it became clear we were going to win and the American produced ordinance favoured by the Argies looked a crock of shit in a real battle where they didn’t have the luxury of ten squadrons of Stratofortresses to carpet bomb the area back into the Stone Age a month before “freeing” the area for showcasing.
John main,
People didnt care.
That will go hand in hand with historical records I suppose for you?
The Scots did care and they did in fact have an uprising called a rebellion, and Englands records Show there was a very real border, as England sent their army up to the Scottish borders to quell the rebellion..
Proving Scots did care at that time period, that there was a difinative border at that time period, and that the Treaty of the union was not voluntary but under duress of enforced by threat and violence from Englands parliament.
Did you forget to read your history books?
Mark Boyle @2.26pm.
Fair points, interestingly the likes of Pete Buttigieg and Nathan Myers have been cosying up to the government in Somaliland far back as 2008 at the behest of the US government. The UK’s Carne Ross via his Independent Diplomat firm which aids breakaways and regime changes was also involved in the Somaliland cosy up.
“Myers currently works as a senior advisor for the United States Agency for International Development’s Office of Transition Initiatives (USAID-OTI) in Washington DC. The OTI is a specialized division of USAID that routinely works through contractors and local proxies to orchestrate destabilization operations inside countries considered insufficiently compliant to the dictates of Washington.
Wherever the US seeks regime change, it seems that USAID’s OTI is involved.”
Buttigieg was possible POTUS candidate in 2020, he was US Naval Intelligence. He is United States Secretary of Transportation since February 3, 2021. he’s done many other covert ops and held numerous positions he’s definitely a US spook to boot.
Ross is also a dark horse having been involved in the Butler Inquiry and the Chilcot Inquiry.
James Che
I am musing an simply making enquiries,
Where as you stated that there was no voting democracy in 1707,
uk parliament site is in opposition to you’re statement.
Prove me wrong. We’ll wait……
Since the actual question I asked you yesterday was for actual evidence being provided from you of when and what date did the majority of Scots in Scotland join the treaty of the union. Which you have actually avoided answering,
I didn’t avoid answering it James. It’s a fatuous question, the answer to which is self evident, and only of any interest to you and a few other weirdos who share your obsession . In 1707 Scotland wasn’t a representative democracy. We didn’t have universal suffrage. You’re as bad as these politicians who get asked questions by interviewers, then totally ignore the question asked and proceed to answer the question you wished you’d been asked, or provide an answer to some unrelated topic you think is important.
Yet another British nuclear convoy travels up to Scotland on busy highways.
link to twitter.com
I recall this man Brian Quail used to lie down in front of the convoys.
“Every so often convoys would come up carrying hydrogen bombs inside up through England, the Borders, to Scotland past Balloch. I was a part of ‘Nuke Watch’ which monitored these convoys. When it was possible we tried to stop the convoy and inhibit the progress. The moment leading up to it, you might think ‘what if I do it the wrong way?’ or ‘what if I need to go to the toilet’? But when you actually [stop the convoy] it’s just calm and peace. I haven’t stopped a convoy for a long while because of Covid. I’m very frustrated at that: convoys are going up and down past the bonnie banks of Loch Lomond through Glasgow and it’s becoming normalised again.”
link to scottishcatholic.com
Xaracen & James Che
I think the following scenario applied equally to the old Scots Parliament in considering a union with England…
“They are telling this of Lord Beaverbrook and a visiting Yankee actress. In a game of hypothetical questions, Beaverbrook asked the lady: ‘Would you live with a stranger if he paid you one million pounds?’ She said she would. ‘And if be paid you five pounds?’ The irate lady fumed: ‘Five pounds. What do you think I am?’ Beaverbrook replied: ‘We’ve already established that. Now we are trying to determine the degree.”
Having established during late 1706, principally via the actions of the spy Defoe, that a majority the Scots parliamentary nobles and commissioners were supportive of the union, England simply had to haggle over the price.
The Scots Parliament was first to pass the Act, (January, 1707), with the English completing the process in March of that year. The English Act shows as 1706 as the “Legal Year” in England concluded on March 25th; the Act of the Parliament of England received Royal Assent on March 6th therefore, falling within the “Legal Year” of 1706.
@ John Main at 11:37 am
Were you in favour of leaving the EU?
Comparing Scotland with the rest of Europe including England, conclusion, we cannot afford to remain tied to this union.
link to macalbasite.wordpress.com
“Having established during late 1706, principally via the actions of the spy Defoe, that a majority the Scots parliamentary nobles and commissioners were supportive of the union, England simply had to haggle over the price.”
They weren’t supportive of the union Queen Anne introduced the Alien Act, and the Scottish nobles would’ve forfeited their lands in England, so the majority of them sold Scotland out to save their lands, and in return they (well some of them) divided up the Equivalent, of which some of the money went to the founding of the Royal Bank of Scotland.
This courtesy of Mr CJ Kerr is interesting.
“In 1702,William of Orange died and was succeeded by his sister in law, Queen Anne. James Edward Stuart (James VIII) was, at that time, the legal King of Scotland following his father’s death in 1701.
And, since Scotland was still a separate country they would have been perfectly entitled to crown him King of Scotland.
Because James Edward was Catholic, as opposed to the English Protestant monarchy, the English Government and Crown wanted to prevent this and started propositions to form a Union between the two countries.
Such a Union would effectively prevent the presence of a separate Scottish King since Scotland, within the Union, would have to accept the existing, (English) Queen.
England had passed the Act of Settlement following James VII’s death to ensure that upon Queen Anne’s death the crown would not go to James VIII but would pass to the German Princess Sophie the Protestant Electress of Hanover.
Scotland responded in 1704 with the Act of Security (which Alan Clayton mentions). This Act stated that: “Only the Scottish Government had the right to appoint the King of Scots.”
Queen Anne refused to accept that and brought in the Alien Act the following year, (1705).
It stated that all Scottish estates in England were to be forfeit unless: 1) The Scottish Act was repealed by the end of 1705; 2) The English Hanoverian line of succession was accepted; and 3) Moves to form a union with England were started.
The forfeiture of their English estates would have been a considerable loss to the Scots nobles. Queen Anne also bribed the Scottish nobility by offering to repay to them any monies they had lost in the Darien Scheme if they would agree to and sign the Treaty of Union.
Ninety petitions were sent to the Scottish Parliament from Scottish shires, burghs and presbyteries urging the rejection of the Treaty.
Not a single petition in favour was received. The Duke of Atholl, who was against the Treaty, stated: “There is not one address from any party of this kingdom in favour of this Union.”
There are records of riots taking place in Glasgow in November 1706 when the Tolbooth was stormed and it appeared that a national riot might break out.
In 1707, the “Edinburgh Mob” stormed the Parliament Hall in Edinburgh and drove the nobles out of Parliament house and then out of St Giles when they tried to sign it there.
But the Scottish nobility ignored the wishes of the Scottish people, succumbed to the bribery of the English and signed the Treaty. Lord Belhaven said of it, “Good God! What is this, an entire surrender”.
Lockhart of Carnwath said: “The Union was crammed down Scotland’s throat.”
John Main says on 28 July, 2022 at 1:55 pm
@ Republicofscotland says:28 July, 2022 at 1:14 pm
“When the USA is knocked off the number one spot, who will inherit the “Great Satan” tag? What will you call the USA then?”
LOL! ‘The Lesser Spotted Imp’
Republicofscotland says on 28 July, 2022 at 5:01 pm
Comparing Scotland with the rest of Europe including England, conclusion, we cannot afford to remain tied to this union.
link to macalbasite.wordpress.com
When i first seen this, some time ago, my first thoughts were that would look good in A5-booklet format. Easy at-a-glance tables and minimal text. I still think it would make a really good booklet for the indy cause. But i don’t have the skills to achieve that. Maybe someone else could?
Does anyone happen to know when Nicola Sturgeon last granted anyone an interview? (I mean a real interview, not just a blether with one of her pals.)
@ Ian B
There was that short wee clip a couple of months back iirc when she got asked an impromptu question by a reporter from the She / Her Fanzine aka The National, which caused She / Her tae look pure agitated as fook at the temerity of being asked such a question.
I thought the clip was included in a Wings article but had a quick look back an couldnae find it. Maybe it was on Stu’s GETTR or Twitter account…
“The Scottish Government’s paper on the democratic case for independence is decidedly low quality – and badly undermined by the performance of the Scottish Government”
Who’d have thought it eh.
link to robinmcalpine.org
I see Joanna Cherry disclosed in The Times that she considered leaving politics last September. Although I rate her pretty high and have a lot of sympathy for what the pieces of work running the SNP put her through, I can’t for the life of me understand how she could stay in the party.
Imagine the impact it could have had if she’d defected to Alba with a few others. It has to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in recent Scots politics.
Instead, we have her largely sidelined and isolated in a dysfunctional SNP. Tragic really.
I’m glad she appears happier now, confident she can see the TRA’s off, relishing her new role as chair of the Commons Human Rights Committee, and hopeful at progress in recent legal cases, but I can’t help but wonder “What if…?”
link to archive.ph
Watching ITV news with the lead item on Scotland’s shocking drugs problem. Sturgeon’s ’ drugs dunderheid and platitude issuer -in-chief Angela Constance bleating that we need to do more . WTF!! The plain truth is narcissistic identity cult attracts the political support and funding. The real socio economic blight like drug deaths and food poverty should have been the priority if the NUSSNP. As it is they treat the working class like voting fodder.
Does anyone happen to know when Nicola Sturgeon last granted anyone an interview? (I mean a real interview, not just a blether with one of her pals.)
Apart from vogue,I’m not sure the FM ever has.
I can’t even think of the first time as FM.
@ Effigy 2.17pm “Centricas profits over £1 billion” I don’t know about anyone else but it appears strange that the big 6 aren’t suffering the same destructive and decimating impact that the world energy crisis and prices have caused to the many newly formed energy companies set up to offer COMPETITION to the greed of the big 6
Is it because they have had decades of FLEECING the gullible public and salting it away for a rainy day that they have managed to remain profitable and immune to the PURPORTED vast increases in costs of energy
Surely it would be unthinkable and not remotely possible for those greed driven companies to come together and form a coalition or group that would concoct a plan of action to grossly inflate the price of energy through auction that it would make it untenable and completely unaffordable for the smaller companies to survive, albeit KNOWING that through their VAST resources they would survive and their profits would still be returned through FORCING the plebs to pay THEIR artificially concocted exorbitant prices
How has these exorbitant prices come about,are there more people vying for those energies,is there a desperate shortfall of those energies, are the big 6 refusing to take on new customers or are they just charging grossly inflated prices which they created for the same energy, have energy generating companies been holding a gun to the energy suppliers heads, where is the proof of the increased costs
Surely our governments are ensuring there are no underhand dealings going on like they did with the PPE supply and profiteering, oh wait
No doubt some of the free market proponents will be along shortly to destroy my tinfoil hattery
“Tavistock transgender clinic shut down by NHS after review finds it is ‘not safe’ for children”
link to archive.ph
Courtesy of the Rev via his Twitter.
Now for Humza Yousaf to shutdown the Sandyford in Scotland that carries out the same stuff as the Tavistock.
Another good reason to be fully in control of our own affairs and assets.
link to twitter.com
I see Joanna Cherry disclosed in The Times that she considered leaving politics last September.
I am sure most observers were aware of that at the time
Although I rate her pretty high and have a lot of sympathy for what the pieces of work running the SNP put her through
A great comfort, you will admit
, I can’t for the life of me understand how she could stay in the party.
This is not the first time your vivid imagination has failed you
Imagine the impact it could have had if she’d defected to Alba with a few others. It has to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in recent Scots politics.
In your imagination
Instead, we have her largely sidelined and isolated in a dysfunctional SNP. Tragic really.
Cheer up, there might be an outcome you have not imagined
I’m glad she appears happier now, confident she can see the TRA’s off, relishing her new role as chair of the Commons Human Rights Committee, and hopeful at progress in recent legal cases, but I can’t help but wonder “What if…?”
I always thought you frowned on, even scolded wishful thinking?
Republicofscotland.
More musings.
Thanks for the filled in history, much appreciated.
This still leaves a hazy cloud around the treaty of the union as I suggested,
Not only did the sovereign Scots challenge the Three Estates but then routed and chased them out of the Scottish parliament to flee.
Thus Scotland had said A big NO to the existence of 1706/07 parliament
So the Scottish parliament can be seen as in hiding (Not a recognised parliament in standing office) from the majority of sovereign Scots in Scotland.
As the Scots had never officially elected them, nor the commissioners, nor the Queen that selected the commissioners and had chased them all out of the Scottish parliament, on what authority and who were they representing when the three estates signed the treaty of the union.
As history states they were chased out of buildings and fleeing to hide.
Did Scotland choose on that day to delete, void the scottish parliament from representing them?
Then we can go further and find no evidence for the now Scotland’s [ dissolved parliament ] by the Scots themselves. Nor of the English parliament inviting the Sovereign Scots into the treaty after discussing wether to give them a vote on it or not.
So where are we when it comes to whom signed and entered the treaty of the union with England?
The Scottish representatives had been chased out of the Scottish Parliament ( meeting) by the Scots, then parliamentaries went into hiding. And visibly and audidbly were no longer the Scots choice as representatives of Scots and Scotland.
The Scots whom showed they were opposed to the treaty of the union by all their petitions from the shires, and the Scottish rebellion,
NOR were the Scots recognised even by the English parliaments.
If Scotland as it would seem at the time had no officially parliament recognised by Scots or representatives of their chosen parliament.
What officially brought the Scots into the treaty at all?
Someones invented it by say so?
I have always been of the opinion that Scots and their country are not in the treaty of the union at all and can find no evidence to support that scenario.
However to define the reality further,
We can from recorded history read that the remaining Three Estates that were chased out of the Scottish parliament 1706/07 did actually enter into individually a treaty of union with England. This cannot be denied.
Individually they signed their names,
And they are still in that treaty of union today wether Messed with by Westminster or not,
The out come of their fear after having been chased and hounded out of a Scottish parliament left them with the fear for their lives if they double crossed the Sovereign Scots again,
So latterly before ratifying was completed for the union they made the choice to insert the “Scots Claim of Right, thus Scottish Sovereignty above parliaments.
However this does not alter the history or facts that there is no record of Scots or Scotland joining in a voluntary agreement to a treaty of union with the english parliament.
Just that the Scots are Sovereign as it is mentioned in and agreed contratually in a treaty between Englands parliament of 1706 and the EX- MEMBERS group known as the three estates that used to sit in a Scottish parliament before their own treaty was signed.
If you have been kicked and chased out of parliament you are no longer a acting member. And cannot legally represent those that kicked you out,
@Paul & Dan –
Thanks.
It’s really difficult to recall the last time she was put on the spot in a conventional Marr-style gig. Different if it’s a Ted-talk type of thing, or a book festival, or something suitably globalist/virtue-signalling, or apologising for shite that happened centuries ago, then ye hufty haud her back.
She’s remarkably ‘shielded’ all things considered. You would imagine that the Scottish fourth estate (or what passes for such) might have a stake in ensuring that she was at least seen to be accountable but they don’t seem too bothered.
Perhaps we could organise a live show, a few decent journalists (Rev included, and mibbe likes of Eddie Mair?) and make a big deal of inviting her? Then, when she doesn’t show, we empty-chair her.
Ah, the banter!
😉
” I’m glad she appears happier now, confident she can see the TRA’s off, relishing her new role as chair of the Commons Human Rights Committee, and hopeful at progress in recent legal cases, but I can’t help but wonder “What if…?”
I’m also glad she appears happier now . I’d be even happier if she stopped wasting her time ( and skills ) , and ours , being dug-in further to WM Committee * Culture * .
Is there not a single SNP MP/MSP whose main concern is achieving Independence ?
Twathater .
Yip , Energy Corps , like every other , operate as a Cartel : Price Fixing , manipulating National and International situations/conflicts – Crisis Capitalism : making sure at all times shareholders n top corporate dogs get paid first , and in full.
You’ll have noticed the near total silence by the Political Class on the fact these soon to be inflicted , massive increases in domestic and business energy costs are coming AT THE SAME TIME as record profits for the ” Big Six ” . Fckn disgrace . If people don’t rise-up soon they never will , though I fear too many have been stupified by relentless propaganda or one kind or another , docility is * encouraged * , * Identity * has drowned-out n fragmented common solidarity on basic human issues . It’s all about the self now . Turns out Narcissus didn’t drown in that pool
RoS @5:12
“They weren’t supportive of the union”
I think you’ll find that, whatever their true motivation, the parcel o’rogues that put their names to it were, by that specific action, supportive of the Union.
If you place an X in the box on the ballot next to the SNP candidate, you are supportive of the SNP. To claim otherwise is self-delusional.
Whether these individuals had the right to act on Scotland’s behalf is putting the cart before the horse in 18th Century politics, as they were in reality acting on behalf of the sovereign, not the people. Power filtered down, not up, in Scotland. Unlike the English in the 17th Century and the French in the 18th, we never got around to chopping the head off our King.
@ Ian B
Aye, clearly pretty guarded and protected. Probably shiting hersel in case she gets Ponsobyed! 😉
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Come to think of it, I wonder who yon blond handler lass works for now…
But if she’ll no take questions in arranged interviews, then maybe we should just create the #AskNicola hashtag and post them there. Thought oor “government” was all aboot being open and transparent, well I did until the deputy leader apparently got a sponsorship deal with Sharpie marker pens for his redacting addiction…
@ Dan says:28 July, 2022 at 4:34 pm
“Were you in favour of leaving the EU?”
Too right I was, Dan. The ideas that anybody can be against a rancid union based in WM, and also in favour of a rancid union based in Brussels, is a feat of cognitive dissonance I am unable to achieve.
At the time, I was keen to get out of the EU before it inevitably collapsed from the death grip of its own sclerotic processes. I could not foresee the war that cannot be named, but all of the evidence I see now is making it clear that the timeline for EU collapse has been accelerated tremendously.
Not convinced? Check out link to macalbasite.wordpress.com
Who pays for the EU? The wealthiest countries in it do. The idea that Scotland should escape from subsidising England and jump straight into subsidising the EU is ludicrous.
Despite what some on here would claim, the Tories did us a big favour when they got us out. For a start, they demonstrated to the Scots Indy movement and the rest of Scotland that the sky does not fall in when you quit a political and economic union that does not work for you.
I see it as simply a legacy of the “too small, too poor” cringe that so many stalwart so-called “Indy” supporters still see Scotland’s endgame as absorption into what will inevitably come to be a second, hated, rancid, exploitative, anti-democratic, union.
Maybes they enjoy griping on here so much that they are subliminally looking for a means to keep it going after Indy!
@Dan (8.08) –
Indeed. More than one way to skin a cat, even if you can’t catch the thing.
Listening to Angela Constance today on Drivetime, I was trying to do a Uri Geller, beaming a question through the ether, and it could be very effective if used propely…
‘Are you proud of Nicola Sturgeon?’
It’s pretty straightforward isn’t it? Hard to imagine that any of the SNP MPs or MSPs would have had much trouble answering when Alex Salmond was leader. They may have had personal differences with him on specific policies or matters of presentation/priority, aye, but there seemed to be general agreement that he was a superlative party leader and even his enemies acknowledged as much.
But Sturgeon?
How many of them, in Holyrood or Westminster, would list off her post-2014 achievements whilst singing her praises on a personal basis?
When she has left the stage we’ll be treated to a conga line of SNPers telling us how they never really trusted or liked her but strange and powerful forces ‘behind the scenes’ prevented them from speaking out.
SCOTLAND LEADS EUROPE AGAIN!!
In drug deaths…
The GOOD news is that the number of deaths dropped – from 1339 in 2020 to only 1330 in 2021! A drop of 9…which is 0.23%
This is a total disgrace and a damning condemnation of the SNP government and the Union.
This is neither normal nor acceptable.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20584153.unacceptable-scotlands-drug-death-crisis-flatlines-1-330-annual-fatalities-2021/
Even more good news, Motherwell being dumped out of Europe by Sligo Rovers.
Their fans have a particular attitude problem on the few occasions they get to play foreign opposition in the big kids’ cups, literally that of “we are from Scotland and therefore better than anyone who isn’t from Germany, Spain, the Netherlands or Italy,” before getting all humpty when the “diddy club” from the “diddy league” puts them out.
Already they’re spitting the dummy over losing 3-0 to “only” Sligo Rovers. Yeah, only Sligo Rovers, who like Nancy-Lorraine (the other club they got gobby about before being destroyed by them) are cooperatively owned by their home town, and whose Ultras based on the Brazilian model (rather than the machismo asshole model preferred in Europe) raise sizeable funds for the club and encourage locals to matches so they punch well above their weight.
Oh, and who unlike Motherwell have won five domestic trophies this century (including their league title) and the cross-border Setanta Cup.
Andrew Smith in The Scotsman today said that without the Old Firm, our league would be on the same rating as Ireland. He’s flattering himself – try Moldova.
Scottish domestic professional football is in terminal decline outside the Ugly Sisters, as other lands do all they can to ensure their contests remain competitive to encourage the maximum participation and local interest level, whereas those in charge of ours bleat “market forces” as an excuse to run everything for the benefit of just two, much the same way politicians do when the big chain stores they’re taking backhanders from put all the wee local ones out of business – then wonder why the high streets are all boarded up.
This is one time we’ve no one else to blame but ourselves.
Unfortunate incident at Birmingham’s commonwealth games opening ceremony.
Priti Patel has sent the Rwanda team to a hostel in Rwanda fearing they are illegal immigrants
Mo Farah from Somalia wished his English mostly from the Caribbean team well.
Boris wished them all the best for the after party whatever a party is.
May the best team with all the stolen resources from the other teams win!
John Main says:
28 July, 2022 at 8:19 pm
I see it as simply a legacy of the “too small, too poor” cringe that so many stalwart so-called “Indy” supporters still see Scotland’s endgame as absorption into what will inevitably come to be a second, hated, rancid, exploitative, anti-democratic, union.
Yeah, but then some people choose to see the world through broader criteria than wealth.
So 15 months until Sturgeon’s IndRef, but in the last 3 months we’ve had 2 somewhat amateurish SNP papers, and I’m not really conscious of anything more than that happening under the SNP’s umbrella.
Has the Campaign been designed to start slow and build to a climax?
Or is everybody just waiting for the starting gun to be fired?
@ Breeks at 7.53am
Aye, you’ve got to laugh, yon pro-“Brexit” dude says folks are only motivated about increasing their wealth. Howz getting taken oot the Single Market working out in wealth terms for so many Scottish businesses and workers…
Re. your 8.10am post
The following link picked up from link to voices.scot lists some stuff that could have been done.
link to jonathonshafi.substack.com
U.K. media gloating in the high level of drug related deaths in Scotland.
Forget the latest leap in average family fuel bills that will freeze 10’s of thousands.
Forget the Westminster funded opening of Birmingham Commonwealth games.
Drop the twin pronged fascist contest to become PM
Let’s have extended coverage of Scotlands plight, let’s say worst in the world a few times.
Strange the plight of a sovereign nation denied the right to have a consultative referendum gets a 20 second slot.
What the hell have the SNP government been doing in the last year that they have made no impact on the figures?
If it happens next year it will become the hammer that knocks them out.
Time to break the Tory law that drug control is not devolved.
Perhaps time to imprison more to wean them off drugs and educate them on the circumstances behind their addiction before supporting them in the community.
I was also under the impression that we uniquely have our own way of what constitutes a drug death that drives the number up to higher levels than our counterparts.
If that is the case they want to see the stupidity of the situation and make measurements in line with England.
Nobody fakes figures better than England.
@ Effigy
Re. Drug death classification differences.
I understand it’s the case that if drugs are found in a deceased person’s system in Scotland it is classed as a drug death, NB. Whether the drugs directly caused the death or not.
In England it is only counted as a drug deaths if the death was directly caused by drugs.
Thanks Dan!
And no one in SNP can see the stupidity of doing this, to drive up the drug death tally above anyone else’s?
If U.K. media confronts them for making this correction we must broadcast that it’s due to them refusing to advise the public of the difference between measurements and ask who is behind not giving the public the true story.
SNP get this measurement changed today.
Put mobile drug support units in the worst affected areas tomorrow and break any Westminster laws you like if it is going to save lives.
Electric shock treatment and smelling salts for all SNP officials by lunch time!
«Independent Scotland quits Commonwealth»
Independence means never «having to», ever again, play the support in the muculent fantasies of others.
Key words: union, united, global, world, family, nations, kith, kin.
@ottomanboi
muculent
Chapeau to you for rare adjective usage! Gotta love learning a new word. “Slimy; moist and moderately viscous”. I’m sure we all know a few that fit that description!
“Dan says:
29 July, 2022 at 8:39 am
I understand it’s the case that if drugs are found in a deceased person’s system in Scotland it is classed as a drug death, NB. Whether the drugs directly caused the death or not.
In England it is only counted as a drug deaths if the death was directly caused by drugs.”
TBH this sounds like the kind of BS excuse making an SNP apologist would come out with down the pub. I’d like to see a source for that claim.
We all know there’s a huge heroin and Valium death problem.
Hi Dan & Roger.
This quote is from Annex A at:-
link to nrscotland.gov.uk
“b)deaths coded to the following categories and where a drug listed under the Misuse of Drugs Act (1971) was known to be present in the body at the time of death (even if the pathologist did not consider the drug to have had any direct contribution to the death):”
Which means that if someone is out for a wander after having a joint and a lump of masonry falls from a building and kills them, it is a drug death.
“Brian Doonthetoon says:
29 July, 2022 at 10:34 am
Hi Dan & Roger.
This quote is from Annex A at:-
link to nrscotland.gov.uk
“b)deaths coded to the following categories and where a drug listed under the Misuse of Drugs Act (1971) was known to be present in the body at the time of death (even if the pathologist did not consider the drug to have had any direct contribution to the death):””
But what was claimed was that Scotland uses a different definition of rug death than does England Your sources seems to show the exact opposite. It was about making the measure of deaths consistent across the UK.
The definition of drug-related deaths used for these statistics (the National Records of Scotland (NRS) implementation of the ‘baseline’ definition for the UK Drugs Strategy)
A1. Background
The definition of a ‘drug-related death’ is not straightforward. Useful discussions on definitional problems may be found in articles in the Office for National Statistics (ONS) publication ‘Population Trends’ and in the journal ‘Drugs and Alcohol Today’ (please see the References at the end of this Annex). ‘Reducing drug related deaths’, a report by the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD, also mentioned in the References), considered (what were, at that time) the current systems used in the United Kingdom to collect and analyse data on drug related deaths. In its report, the ACMD recommended that ‘a short life technical working group should be brought together to reach agreement on a consistent coding framework to be used in future across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland’. A predecessor of National Records of Scotland (NRS), the then General Register Office for Scotland (GROS), was represented on this group, and this publication presents information on drug-related deaths using the approach that was agreed, on the basis of the definition as it was implemented by GROS and, now, NRS.
The Office for National Statistics uses this definition to produce figures for what are described as ‘drug misuse’ deaths in England and Wales.
‘Causes of death’ are always complicated to define exactly – look at covid – but Scotland’s rates are way higher than England, etc USING THE SAME MEASURE.
Roger @10.34
Thank you for your clarification. Do Scotland and England use the same criteria for ‘excess’ deaths?
Oneliner says:
29 July, 2022 at 11:44 am
Roger @10.34
Thank you for your clarification. Do Scotland and England use the same criteria for ‘excess’ deaths?
I’m not sure what you mean – ‘excess deaths’ in what? Where are you getting ‘excess deaths’ from? All rug deaths are ‘excess deaths’ over deaths by other/natural causes. Sorry, I’m not sure what you’re asking
Republicofscotland.
RobertKnight.
The Scots chased their parliament out of office to flee for their lives in 1707.
So the Scots were without a recognised sitting parliament in 1707.
Annulling and voiding the Scottish parliament of the three estates in 1707.
And to date have not as yet, chosen a new one,
Republicofscotland
Robertknight.
Did the Scotland have a parliament to sign the treaty of the union in 1707.
Or was the treaty signed before the Scotland cancelled their parliament in 1707,
Effigy.
Dan.
Nobody fakes figures better than England. True.
And nobody fakes a treaty of union better than England.
The sad thing is until we question every aspect of both we co not realise that both are faked.
Dan,
effigy.
At one time in history we had our shores and sea around Scotland monitored to prevent trafficking of drugs along our coasts .
This was withdrawn, I am not sure whom made that decision, Scotland ? or England?
I remember something on the news about it when I was younger.
Top world news of the day from the beep. Two wags and who won the cat fight.
No mention of the impending catastrophe come winter when hundreds , maybe thousands will die cos they cannae afford to heat their hame’s.
Good they’ve got their priorities eh!
ON Topic i.e. getting out of the Union – an excellent post by Breeks on Yours for Scotland blog considering how to apply the Salvo constitutional tool of the Convention of the Estates to instigating the process of a 2-year notice of intent to withdraw from the Union.
Breeks invites discussion and debate. Wings is a good place to start!
I agree that Salvo’s work provides the essential route to regain independence i.e. Citizens Convention/Assembly running the show, rather than parliament.
Like the Rev and the Manifesto for Indy, Breeks suggests that a confirmatory referendum vote be held at the end of the 2 years transition period. This cunning plan would help keep Unionists on board with the process.
Breeks doesn’t say explicitly who these Citizens should be. Would it start off with all elected councillors and parliamentarians in order to give a clearly “democratically chosen” flavour? Or would these elected folk self-select with the Unionists choosing not to take part [but see the cunning plan above]?
There is plenty of room for UK shenanigans, I fear. But we have to try something soon – we cannot wait until 2023.
James Che
Be careful in applying a modern concept of democratic representation to a parliament that existed over three centuries ago.
The Scots Parliament was NOT a body of individuals established to represent the people of Scotland, but a body of wealthy, privileged individuals through which the priorities of the State, in the form of Sovereign, Kirk and those having vested interests in profiteering from the land and/or it’s people, could be implemented.
It was answerable to the Sovereign, not the people, and it’s purpose was to channel the wealth generated by the sweat off the backs of the lowest in society upwards, through the varying layers of aristocracy, to the Crown – such layers taking their ‘cut’ as that wealth filtered upwards.
Laws enacted by that body were for the benefit of the ruling classes rather than for the ordinary citizen. Those who supported the Union with England did so for their own perceived financial benefit, not through any sense of duty to the Kingdom of Scotland as an independent, sovereign state, nor indeed to the Queen’s subjects dwelling therein.
Turning to that individual, what mattered was not whether the ordinary Scot in the street considered that the Estates were doing their bidding, but that Queen Anne felt assured that the Estates were doing her’s. As such, that the Act of Union with England received Royal Assent, whether rightly or wrongly, concluded that process.. the Sovereign being sovereign despite any riots by the common folk or Claim of Right, which Scotland’s people then as now had no practical means to exert.
To answer your question, the ordinary people of the Kingdom of Scotland never had representation in the Parliament of Scotland. However, the Monarch(s) of the Scots together with their favourites, in the form of nobles and commissioners, most certainly did, and it was their interests which the Parliament of Scotland promoted and protected, not those of the people.
So who’s gaun oot tae binge on the ‘nativists’ games the day?
All manner of nativists from aroon the commonwealth have gathered in Birmingham to thrash it oot.
Wit dae ye reckon Andy? You gaun oot tae spend yer giro the day and binge watch the English medals come in! LOL
Robertknight.
Thank you for responding.
This scenario is very much like the fake rise in figures for drugs in Scotland that does not take into account any relevance of what happened around the subject, such as the uk withdrawing uk coast guards from Scotlands coasts, in an effort to safe money. Causing an increase of access to drugs in Scotland shortly afterwards.
Either the Scottish parliament did represent the Scottish people as a nation in 1707, or they did not, the phrase having your cake and eating it, simply cannot hold up.
Supposing we agree for a moment. that the three estates represented the the Scots as the Scottish nation.
We then have acknowledge that the Scots as a Scottish nation kicked them out parliament to flee for their lives. According accounts and records of the day in 1707.
@robbo
Yer patter’s as crap as what passes for your arguments in here. Just another know nuthin’ that likes to other anyone that disagrees wi’ them. We saw yoons doing the same wi’ cybernats during indyref1.
You and yer muckers are no better labelling anyone that disagrees wi’ their regressive blood and soil nationalism as unionists.
@Effigy
“Strange the plight of a sovereign nation denied the right to have a consultative referendum gets a 20 second slot.”
Scotland is not a sovereign nation, the UK is a sovereign nation. Scotland is a constituent nation which is part of the UK. If Scotland were a sovereign nation, then there wouldn’t be any need to hold an independence referendum, as it would already be independent.
sarah says:
28 July, 2022 at 12:12 pm
ONLINE option to attend the SSRG conference running from 29th – 31st July – able to see everything and join in Q&A for £5.
Go to scottishsovereigntyresearchgroup.org to buy your tickets.
Hope to hear your voices there!
—-
The SSRG are a fringe group that would do more to frighten undecided voters and soft YESSERS.
Alf Baird: An eccentric crackpot who believes that Scotland is a colony and seems to get off on writing the words ‘colony’ and ‘colonialism’ over and over again.
Sara Salyers: The perfect example of how having a little knowledge can be dangerous. She’s not an expert on Scottish/UK Law nor is she an expert on constitutional politics. Her claims would be easily discredited by genuine experts such as Professors Aileen McHarg and Andrew Tickell.
I also noticed that the limp-wristed In-D-Car Gordon Ross will be in attendance – a driving instructor with delusions of grandeur. In his mind, he’s an expert on constitutional law, international law, environmentalism, renewable energies, virology, recycling, foreign policy, international diplomacy etc…one wonders why the rest of the world hasn’t recognised his ‘talents’.
ON Topic i.e. getting out of the Union – an excellent post by Breeks on Yours for Scotland blog considering how to apply the Salvo constitutional tool of the Convention of the Estates to instigating the process of a 2-year notice of intent to withdraw from the Union.
So who chooses who will be in this Convention of the Estates, and how do we convince everyone that they represent the will of the majority?
I’ve seen Mia and others in BTL comments on Breeks’ piece suggest they should essentially be randomly selected like a jury from those that have put themselves forward as willing to sit in such a body.
How does that work exactly?
Do those involved get recompensed if they’re taking time off work?
If so, by who?
If not, you’re already self selecting by excluding those who couldn’t afford to do it unpaid.
I presume the proposal to have a confirmatory plebiscite at the end of the proposed 2 year “Transition Period” is because those proposing it are worried that a self-selected Convention might not be regarded as representative of the majority?
If that’s the case though, why would those opposed to independence (presumably both the Westminster government and Scottish unionists) accept the validity of the Convention, or anything it decides just because they’d had 2 years to mull it over?
A victory in a plebiscitary election at either Westminster or Holyrood doesn’t require any confirmation, just 50% + 1 to vote for pro-independence parties, then it’s a done deal. Seems a good deal simpler to me, and much harder for britnats to challenge.
“Alf Baird: An eccentric crackpot ”
Chris Pike.
Alf had a wealth of experience on the indy subject and just as much knowledge on Maritime matters, I’ve read a lot of his stuff, and it makes sense.
You on the other hand are just some numpty who has posted a few virtually uninteresting comments in here, I’m sure most folk in here will who know Alf’s work and read his comments will agree with me.
“Sara Salyers: The perfect example of how having a little knowledge can be dangerous.”
Chris Pike.
First you attack Alf Baird, now Sarah Salyer’s who’s next Alex Salmond, Neale Hanvey, Kenny MacAskill, from now I’ll take your comments with a huge pinch of salt.
Chris Pike @3.27pm.
link to pbs.twimg.com
The UK is a political union.
James Che @12.19pm.
“The pre-1707 Scottish parliament (covering the period up to the 1707 Act of Union between Scotland and England) was a single chamber (unicameral) institution, unlike its English counterpart, with no separate House of Commons and House of Lords. It was a representative assembly based on the concept of estates: clergy (clerical estate), nobility (noble estate), barons (estate of barons, also referred to a shire commissioners), burghs (estate of burgesses) and officers of state (crown appointments). Different estates were represented at different times in Scotland’s history, and several important constitutional settlements in the history of the Scottish parliament impacted on the representative nature of the estates.”
I’m sure most folk in here will who know Alf’s work and read his comments will agree with me.
Oh, i’m sure some will agree with you, but many will not. I doubt most of the – reportedly – many people who still visit this place will think you are entitled to speak on their behalf, still less agree that someone with your…..interesting, let’s say…..worldview is at all representative of those who might read Alf’s pearls of wisdom about “Scotland as colony”.
I imagine most ordinary Scots are as scornful of the concept that we are a colony, as they are of those who think that the “country which shall not be named” had it coming at the hands of your bestie Vlad and his nice bunch of lads. The fact that you and a coterie of fringe extremists who hang about about in here doesn’t signify much.
Mr Pike on here and WEBF on Lawson’s blog have a point: the movement as a whole doesn’t take the presumptious narrative of Salvo, SSRG and their self appointed leaderships seriously, because they have few heavyweight experts in the relevant fields backing their “cunning plan” narrative up. If they can do so over coming months and years, fair enough….but from current evidence it’s a big ask, and not one they are up to answering.
Bear in mind Mr Lawson, in spite of his protestations of encouraging debate on the article by Breeks, has form for ostentatiously banning folk he disagrees with from posting and deleting their contributions, having done so to Rev Stu, myself and doubtless other critical contributors. Seems an odd way to convince people to support “cunning plans for indy” don’t you think?
AUOB will hold a demo outside Faslane Naval Base tomorrow the march begins at 12.30pm from the junction at the Briars (550 metres South of the Peace Camp) Alba speakers will be in attendance, among others, entertainment will come from Andrew Docherty and Neil MacKay.
Saturday is not a Network Rail strike day, though some East Coast service may be affected.
Another march is scheduled for the 20th of August.
Christopher Pike says: at 3:27 pm
“Scotland is not a sovereign nation, the UK is a sovereign nation. Scotland is a constituent nation which is part of the UK.”
Okay, so how does that fit in with no constituent part of the UK should have an economic advantage over another as per agreed terms of being in the Union?
Just wondering how the Kingdom of England’s population could possibly have grown from approximately 5 to 10 times that of the Kingdom of Scotland’s, with all the economic advantage that growth yielded for the KoE if genuine parity of developmental policy for the constituent parts of said Union was being administrated in Westminster over the course of this 300 odd year equal union.
What kind of life do some people live when all they seem to do is post umpteen times on here EVERY day.
It would not be so bad if the posts were interesting or informative but sadly it is constantly a variation on the same theme.
However the 3 or 4 of them do support each other and seem quite happy turning the sane and sensible off!
Imagine visiting Faslane Naval Base and running the risk of bumping into one of them? Shudders at the thought!
Dan says:
29 July, 2022 at 5:44 pm
Christopher Pike says: at 3:27 pm
“Scotland is not a sovereign nation, the UK is a sovereign nation. Scotland is a constituent nation which is part of the UK.”
Okay, so how does that fit in with no constituent part of the UK should have an economic advantage over another as per agreed terms of being in the Union?
Just wondering how the Kingdom of England’s population could possibly have grown from approximately 5 to 10 times that of the Kingdom of Scotland’s…”
The Kingdom of England hasn’t existed since 1707.
@ Christoper Pike
If you say so, but the constituent nations you mention that make up the UK still do, so any chance you could actually address my point about no advantage being given to any constituent part?
Republicofscotland says:
29 July, 2022 at 4:29 pm
“Alf Baird: An eccentric crackpot ”
Chris Pike.
Alf had a wealth of experience on the indy subject and just as much knowledge on Maritime matters, I’ve read a lot of his stuff, and it makes sense.
You on the other hand are just some numpty who has posted a few virtually uninteresting comments in here, I’m sure most folk in here will who know Alf’s work and read his comments will agree with me.”
Simply repeating the words ‘colony’ and ‘colonialism’ doesn’t make it true. Alf Baird could write about how Scotland is a colony for the next 100 years, but it doesn’t make it true. He would be (rightfully) derided in the political mainstream if he started his eccentric nonsense. Scotland is not a colony, and was actually a coloniser. His oddball writings would convert hordes of people over to the other side. If you want to win a future referendum, then keep the lunatics (Salyers, Baird etc) taped and gagged.
P.S the UK is a nation-state. The sovereign state is the UK – Scotland and England ceased being sovereign states in 1707.
Dan says:
29 July, 2022 at 6:07 pm
@ Christoper Pike
If you say so, but the constituent nations you mention that make up the UK still do, so any chance you could actually address my point about no advantage being given to any constituent part?
——
The point you make is irrelevant to the fact that Scotland is not a sovereign country. The Kingdom of Scotland no longer exists, either – this is 2022, how far back do you want to take us? Present day Scotland exists as a constituent nation within the UK.
Stop reading all the crackpot posts about the Claim of Right and how there might be a super, secret way to achieving independence because a driving instructor and a retired teacher masquerading as a constitutional expert (Salyers) says so. Independence will only be achieved when you win over enough voters. Nobody cares about Scotland in 1707 – it is ancient history.
@ Christopher Pike
Presumably you’ll agree the Treaty of Union is still extant, or we aren’t in the Union. So if Scotland is still in the Union then the terms and conditions of the Treaty are still extant too, even if they are old, you can’t have it both ways.
Article VI.
“That all Parts of the United Kingdom, for ever, from and after the Union, shall have the
same Allowances, Encouragements, and Draw-backs, and be under the same Prohibitions,
Restrictions, and Regulations of Trade, and liable to the same Customs and Duties,
and Import and Export”
So how does continual disparity of population growth with the advantage that gives one constituent part of the Union over another (with no political policy implemented to redress the imbalance over the course of the Union) not breach the Treaty.
It’s not just population growth though. How about the lack of political will to develop Scottish ports. The transporting of Scottish goods to England for export from English ports also creates work in England with all the benefit comes with it.
Sara Salyers must be doing something right if she’s already receiving this sort of vitriol.
And Alf Baird, as we know, can speak for himself (without resorting to personal abuse) so perhaps he’ll drop in at some point and deal with ‘Christopher Pike’.
In the meantime,‘Stop reading all the crackpot posts about the Claim of Right..’ probably tells us all we need to know about Mr. Pike’s MO.
“Simply repeating the words ‘colony’ and ‘colonialism’ doesn’t make it true. ”
Chris Pike.
The similarities are striking, and cannot be ignored, which to me suggests that you haven’t read any of the ten parts, and I have a good idea why.
@Andy Ellis 5:20pm
The mainstream Independence movement will be taken down a constitutional rabbit hole by these developments. I suppose this is a consequence of the level of mistrust the Governing SNP has generated with their machiavellian games played since 2015.
Of the six routes to Independence proposed. I myself would support 2 of them. A plebiscite election and a section 30. Withdrawal of a majority of elected MPs should have been done in 2015 but looking at the group we have in place now, that won’t happen. The decolonisation route is based on a false assumption and considering Fanons theories and his solution of a cathartic release of violence against the colonial oppresser that is very concerning. Now for those who say there is no evidence of the threat of violence by current developments. I would say it has been hiding in plain view on these pages. I forgotten how many times Fanon has been quoted. I guess over a 100 times. These people are front and centre now. I dissociate myself from their machinations.
“I imagine most ordinary Scots are as scornful of the concept that we are a colony, as they are of those who think that the “country which shall not be named” had it coming at the hands of your bestie Vlad and his nice bunch of lads. The fact that you and a coterie of fringe extremists who hang about about in here doesn’t signify much.”
Ellis.
Alf Baird’s ten parter on The Determinants OF Independence points out clearly that Scotland although a country is treated as a colony, more Scots haven’t read the ten parter than have read it, and that’s why many Scots don’t even realise the situation they are in.
The same applies to The Claim of Right more Scot don’t know about it than do, that’s down to the treacherous shit Sturgeon and her spineless and gutless hoarde, and the Britnat media blanking out the real party for independence Alba who along with Sarah are trying to inform Scots that they are sovereign and not Westminster or the monarchy.
As for country 404 the same applies, many Scots don’t actually know what’s going on a rely on the same media that has lied constantly (the 2014 indyref a prime example) for generations, it never ceases to amaze me that the same Scots that know the Britnat media lies to them daily about Scotland suddenly believes what it tells them about country 404, when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
Jeez Oh this sites hoachin with Chinthes tonight.
Would the geniuses on here who do nothing but denigrate anyone who discusses original , untried approaches to achieving Independence care to tell us how flogging the fckn dead-in-the-water Pleberendum route is productive of anything other than pointless , repetitive arguments .
Let’s get this straight …..the UK/English State will NEVER willingly * permit * the end of Union , eg the loss of Scotland’s abundance of resources . NEVER . How anyone can doubt that defies belief . The fuckers are continually telling us that’s the case , pushing each other out of the way to proclaim it loudest .
You , * Pragmatists * are no different from the lumpen SNP supporters you deride , still spellbound by the voodoo jive of * Democracy * * justice * * Fair Play * being possible in Anglo/Scots relations . Forget it . Isnae happnin
FFS! Now Dad’s Army’s very own Private Pike joins the party. How ironic, he was appointed by Captain Mainwaring as The Home Guard’s Information Officer. LOL!
@George Ferguson (6.43) –
‘The mainstream Independence movement will be taken down a constitutional rabbit hole by these developments.’
Should we take that to mean that you don’t think we’re in a constitutional rabbit hole right now?
The mainstream Independence movement will be taken down a constitutional rabbit hole by these developments. I suppose this is a consequence of the level of mistrust the Governing SNP has generated with their machiavellian games played since 2015.
I think some in the movement might: we see a fair few baleful examples in here, but we – and indeed they – shouldn’t mistake their ideological certainty as a sign that they enjoy appreciable support. It’s much more likely they represent a similar number of folk as RISE and the SSP and they have about as much chance of seeing their platform enacted.
The obsession with the “Scotland as colony” narrative is necessary to them, because it justifies UDI. It makes them sound like fringe nutters of course, and will prove to be an electoral liability, but since they’re fluffing a non-electoral “cunning plan” route to indy, they don’t see a problem.
The prospects of Salvo, SSRG et all producing results that a plebiscitary election can’t, and in anything like the same timescale given the educational task they’ve set themselves seems remote to me. I’m particularly concerned that seem to have little in the way of expert back up, as others have pointed out.
Of course even experts will disagree, but I’ve seen no actual subject matter experts in constitutional law, politics, governance or any other field supporting their positions or being quoted. Doubtless it won’t trouble the uncritical supporters….not trusting experts, or thinking you need them at all is symptomatic.
I agree with you, Robert Hughes. Economically speaking, Scotland probably means more to England today than India meant in the 1940s. They will do everything possible to stop us leaving and the whole constitutional framework, from Holyrood to The Supreme Court, is designed to stop us leaving.
On top of all that, we have the rabid BBC propaganda machine to contend with, as well as all the other MSM attack dogs.
Scotland irrefutably became a colony when Westminster started denying the SNP mandates after Brexit. Until then I resisted the temptation to use the word, although I understood the vassal nature of the relationship.
Refusing to let people determine their own future in terms of who runs their affairs, etc., is one of the clearest indications that you are dealing with a colonial relationship. Anyone that pretends otherwise is lying.
Those who refuse to entertain the idea that Scotland is a colony are going to need to come up with a really carefully calibrated definition of the word, because in every aspects of our relationship, economics, politics, social and cultural terms, we are being bludgeoned to a pulp on a daily basis.
It’s so obvious now that Scotland is a colony that it has become embarrassing.
@Robert Hughes
I doubt many think indyref2 is happening any time soon. The answer to your question is plebiscitary elections, which are far more likely to happen and to result in a successful outcome than “cunning plans for indy” (TM).
A’ the rest of the conspiracy theorising guff that we’re hostages/being held against our will/colonised/yadda, yadda, yadda is just more chip on yer shoulder “wha’s like us? Guy few, and they’re a’ deid” excuses for not having good enough arguments, and not having the bollocks to vote for independence.
We weren’t robbed. We’re not being held in the union against our will. We bottled it in 2014, and with conspiracy theorists spreading the kind of bullshit we see regurgitated on here with such abandon, it wouldn’t surprise me if soft No voters decide the last thing they’d want is fringe nutter views like those being influential in the early days of a better nation.
@
Brian Doonthetoon says:
29 July, 2022 at 10:37 am
Which means that if someone is out for a wander after having a joint and a lump of masonry falls from a building and kills them, it is a drug death.’
…. would that be the origins of the term ‘stoned’?’
By the way… FULL HOUSE at the SSRG today at Dunfermline… nae bad fir a hot Friday in the middle oh the simmer hols;)
@George Ferguson (6.43) –
‘Now for those who say there is no evidence of the threat of violence by current developments. I would say it has been hiding in plain view on these pages. I forgotten how many times Fanon has been quoted. I guess over a 100 times. These people are front and centre now. I dissociate myself from their machinations.’
How noble of you.
But you know it’s just mischievous nonsense. Virtually no-one apart from Alf Baird quotes Fanon (although I’m sure Cameron Brodie did from time to time) and he does so in context. For you to cherry-pick mention of a ‘controversial’ thinker and conflate fear of him with ‘these people’ (who exactly are you referring to?) is sloppy rubbish.
No one here has ever raised the prospect of using violence to further the independence cause. (Rev perhaps had to hoof a few roasters through the years but I can’t imagine it was a huge number.) And many of us have been active for long enough to have become aware of any groups considering it seriously. Yes, there are lone zealots who fantasise about occupying castles and suchlike but they are mercifully few and scattered. Wittingly or not, you appear to have fallen into the trap laid by Ellis and others with their incessant portrayal of ‘radical’ Scots as (insert the usual stereotypes and insults here).
There’s nothing wrong with being ‘radical’. It’s just a word indicating a position relative to others. And let’s face it, most of us here are ‘radical’ compared to Sturgeon and her ilk. Alex Salmond certainly deserves that description, as do Hanvey, McAskill, Rev Stu and dozens of others who have never once advocated violence of any kind.
But mark this well George – the cork can’t be kept in the bottle indefinitely. Either the independence cause dies naturally, through demographics and the loss of will, or it doesn’t. And if it doesn’t, and if Westminster (with the assistance of tractors here in Scotland) continues to treat us as nothing more than bothersome natives who can be derided and ignored, there will be trouble down the line.
As things stand we’re all too busy trying to make ends meet, and there can’t be anyone who isn’t dreading this coming winter, but ‘normal’ politics will resume at some point (probably not until Sturgeon has ‘retired’ or been jailed) and then we’ll find out whether or not the constitutional route as outlined by Baird, Sayers, Sheridan and many others has any traction – if their efforts can help avoid even the distant threat of violent unrest then they should be getting our wholehearted support rather than sneers and insults.
Christopher Pike
Good to see that someone else has some sense. There are a few of us on here. I suspect that there is a lot whole more who simply choose not to post.
By now you will have realised that you have aroused the patriotic fervour (in their minds only) of the 3 stooges and the brain dead. As Denis Healey once said ‘It is like being ravaged by a dead sheep’.
It seems like anything will do for them other than an X on a ballot box! Maybe one of them will cast a magical spell?
“Christopher Pike
Good to see that someone else has some sense.”
Chas.
We didn’t realise that you had a sense of humour good for you.
So on the one hand:
…and dozens of others who have never once advocated violence of any kind.
And on the other:
But mark this well George – the cork can’t be kept in the bottle indefinitely. […] there will be trouble down the line.
Hmmnnn….
Difficult to trust the insights of one who only sees manichaean alternatives of death of the movement or some unspecified “trouble” ahead.
Putting your faith in “cunning plans for indy” and relying on the SNP deposing Sturgeon or changing radically is a recipe for delaying independence for far longer than the next General Elections, whether Westminster or Holyrood.
Perhaps the upcoming winter and recession will lead to an upswell of rage at our current situation: only time will tell. I think past experience doesn’t really suggest the Scots in general are about to take to the streets or otherwise force the hand of the current political elites. There are plenty of radicals, and there’s definitely a place for proposing radical solutions. We can’t assume that’s going to be what the majority will endorse though. One man’s radical is another’s extremist.
We didn’t realise that you had a sense of humour good for you.
I prefer Chas’ sense of humour to yours. You were joking when you said the inhabitants of Country 404 “had it coming”, right?
Or are you really that nasty a piece of work?
I think alert readers already know the answer to that question, huh?
NATO-boy, sorry to break it to you, but you aren’t in a position to lecture anyone on peace.
Yes, yes, I know, the MSM is on your side and you are going along with the bullshit… we see you.
RoS
You simply do not have any sense.
This video by ‘UselessOldGit’ opens with screenshots of Wings’ ‘The Great Indyref Swindle’ post of April 6th 2021.
It’s about 15 mins long and fairly dry in parts, but it explains why the SNP, and the Murrells specifically, are guilty of fraud over the ‘missing’ £600k.
The summary is at approx 13mins, but it’s worth watching the whole thing.
This can’t be dismissed as abstract constitutional debate – it’s straightforward evidence of criminality.
Powerful people want us to forget this stuff. All the more reason to remember it.
link to youtube.com
England’s relationship to Scotland is parasitical, which is ultimately the definition of colonialism.
It is a fair point to say that the Treaty of Union was signed behind the backs of the Scottish people, i.e. without their consent, and since the people are sovereign in Scotland there can be no legal validity to the Treaty.
Our ancestors laid down their lives for our country so that we don’t have to. Scotland is in an entirely different position constitutionally to Ireland pre-1916 or Catalunya currently, for example. The Claim of Right allows us to constitute our own national government without having to resort to violence (or ask anyone’s permission for that matter).
Colloquially, I was speaking with someone today about independence and republicanism and we agreed on both subjects along with our intense dislike of Sturgeon. “She’s going to fu*k it up for everyone”, were his exact words!
Yes, yes, I know, the MSM is on your side and you are going along with the bullshit… we see you.
Isn’t the problem for the Brigadoon Popular Front that the “you” above constitutes the overwhelming majority of Scots?
Much as the Bella Caledonia bolsheviki types and Vlad’s besties in here might hate to admit it, ordinary Scots scorn their fringe views, not because they’re duped by the MSM but because they think false equivalence is puerile.
Still…little better can be expected of anyone who lets themselves be persuaded by the “Scotland as colony” schtick.
@Ellis (8.37) –
I dislike addressing you directly because it inevitably draws more insults, but I would like some clarification here, on the record.
Are you suggesting that I advocate violence?
@ Brotherhood 10.02 pm
I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of your protestations in response to George Ferguson and the subsequent conjuring of “trouble down the line”.
Probably better if you kept to your resolution by the look of it.
@Andy Ellis (10.18) –
That’s not an answer but is noted nonetheless.
Gang canny mister – you’re on thin ice.
Dan says:
29 July, 2022 at 6:33 pm
@ Christopher Pike
Presumably you’ll agree the Treaty of Union is still extant, or we aren’t in the Union. So if Scotland is still in the Union then the terms and conditions of the Treaty are still extant too, even if they are old, you can’t have it both ways.
Article VI.
“That all Parts of the United Kingdom, for ever, from and after the Union, shall have the
same Allowances, Encouragements, and Draw-backs, and be under the same Prohibitions,
Restrictions, and Regulations of Trade, and liable to the same Customs and Duties,
and Import and Export”
So how does continual disparity of population growth with the advantage that gives one constituent part of the Union over another (with no political policy implemented to redress the imbalance over the course of the Union) not breach the Treaty.
It’s not just population growth though. How about the lack of political will to develop Scottish ports. The transporting of Scottish goods to England for export from English ports also creates work in England with all the benefit comes with it.”
——–
I don’t care about the Treaty of Union, most people don’t. I care about modern day issues such as the cost of living and securing my future. You’re living in a fantasy world if you think that the ordinary man and woman on the street are having restless nights over the Claim of Right and the Treaty of Union – nobody cares.
Can you imagine in the final days of a second independence referendum – polls are showing a 50/50 split, where every vote is to play for. BBC Scotland host the final debate and the YES movement wheel out Professor Alf Baird blabbering on about “the colonialist literature” and ocasionally breaking into the Scots ‘language’ (Stu Campbell is 100% correct in his view on Gaelic/Scots – utterly useless languages in the modern world) can you imagine the damage this would do to the YES movement and its attempt to win over undecided voters?
Sara Salyers would get utterly savaged if put in a debate with a genuine constitutional expert. Do you genuinely believe these people have more insight into constitutional law than the Scottish and UK Government’s top legal advisers? Do you honestly believe a driving instructor from Partick is more knowledgeable on such matters than Professor Andrew Tickell or the judges sitting in the UK Supreme Court?
YES lost because it couldn’t convince enough voters.
I’m reposting this link because it deserves to be seen by anyone ‘dropping in’ who may be diverted by squabbling.
The Murrells *appear* to have committed fraud. The evidence – as previously explained on this site – is right here:
link to youtube.com
The Wings article exposing/explaining the scam can be found here:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Christopher Pike says: at 10.36pm
“I don’t care about the Treaty of Union, most people don’t. I care about modern day issues such as the cost of living and securing my future..”
So you again swerve addressing the issue of breaches of the ToU because you just don’t care about the political union… That very same political union that has effectively created the modern day issues like the cost of living that you do care about.
If you’re a unionist then best just sit back, stop complaining, and enjoy the shit served up by successive Westminster Governments that England continues to elect through the power of the democratic deficit being 10 to 1 in their favour.
Scotland hasn’t had a fully empowered Government which it voted for in over 50 years. That’s rather a long length of time to just accept and endure major societal influencing policies that don’t align with Scottish democratically expressed wishes and outlook.
Maybe if Scots were better informed about many of the historic and current aspects that affect our existence we would be in a better place. Of course we won’t get that sort of thing happening on the BBC. So that’s what btl discussion on various different subject matters is all about.
Different subjects will resonate with different folk. Just because you don’t think a certain subject is relevant doesn’t mean others agree with you.
There’s been many subjects discussed btl if you keep an eye on commentary, and many of those subjects have nothing to do with all that “historical stuff”, but some are very much relevant to your cost of living concerns. Why don’t you add input to those other subjects? You surely will have your own unique take on things based on your life and work experiences.
James Che @3:06
“Either the Scottish parliament did represent the Scottish people as a nation in 1707, or they did not,”
I don’t, whilst conceding that I wasn’t there, believe for one second that the Parliament of Scotland represented the Scottish people as a nation.
The Parliament of Scotland was a parliament of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy. It’s role was to secure patronage, position and privileged for those who were willing to pay for the right to do the monarch’s bidding. The fact that the ordinary folk took exception to it’s dealings, supposedly on their behalf, is sadly neither here nor there.
In the absence of an alternative form of government, the parliament acted how it saw fit and its actions were ratified and endorsed by the Head of State.
Whether the nobles and commissioners had a right to act is a moot point, for the fact is that they did, and nobody, including the Scottish people as a nation, prevented them from doing so.
Going through that old thread, here’s a belter:
manandboy says:
6 April, 2021 at 10:02 am
Nicola’s knittin’s comin’ aff the needles.
🙂 🙂 🙂
Andy Ellis – Yi huv nae banter ya rocket. The only wan in here that supports yer point of view is the otherer pub bore ‘chas’
Stoap being a cunt and get wae the program-. Yer is much an I
@Christopher Pike
re Do you genuinely believe these people have more insight into constitutional law than..
As far as I can see (albeit without doing my own research) Sara has the luxury of being armed with irrefutable substantiation.
Accordingly ignorance can no longer be an excuse and those in the positions of responsibility you speak of will be obliged to work with it whether they believe it or not, particularly if they are to remain (to be seen to be) fit for high public office (ie competent, incorruptible, sane, etc, etc)
robertkknight says:
29 July, 2022 at 11:47 pm
I don’t, whilst conceding that I wasn’t there, believe for one second that the Parliament of Scotland represented the Scottish people as a nation…
I agree with that, completely. The evidence paints a damning picture, but yet for all that, there are little fragments of light which suggest that while some were rogues, there were others fighting for the life of Scotland.
The problem is, the fragments don’t tell the whole story, and as is the case today, the Union has been in sole control of the narrative.
Just odd things like Article 19, which protects Scots Law and the Court of Session… Why is that even there? People automatically say ha! ha! Lawyers looking after their vested interest… but even if that was true, it’s still quite a diplomatic coup with excruciatingly awkward ramifications to squeeze into your Treaty of Union.
In an equitable Treaty, why does clause 19 protect Scots law, rather than speak in terms of parity of protection for both Scots and English law?
When you look at what Article 19 says about Scots Law, ” within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges, as before the Union…
So Scots Law was to have the same authority in the Union as it traditionally had in Scotland, “as it was constituted”. So if that authority was a sacred thing, then it follows that the source of that authority was a sacred thing. So where did the authority behind Scots Law come from? We know from the SALVO papers that the “people” could overturn any law they considered contrary to the common good, so once again, the people are standing at the top of the pile and claiming the parking space marked “sovereign”.
You cannot have one without the other, because otherwise, the Court of Session would enjoy unlimited authority, and a degree of sovereignty for itself… but that would not be the “same” authority it had before the Union.
Suppose therefore, that Scotland’s last Parliament could see the writing on the wall that Scotland was about to be subsumed, and saw the Articles of Union as their last ditch attempt to “hide” protections for Scotland.
Isn’t it at least possible that some Scottish Parliamentarians voted for the Treaty, because better to have a Treaty with in-built protections, rather than a Union forced upon Scotland without those protections?
As you say, we weren’t there.
But the more and more I kick these ideas around my head, the more I see Scotland’s Parliament trapped with a Hobson’s choice to make, and “perhaps” they chose the least worst option.
Is it credible they believed they were signing up to a Treaty so full of holes and loopholes that it couldn’t hold water?
robbo says: 29 July, 2022 at 11:58 pm
Andy Ellis and the other posters of his ilk are playing to the silent majority who only lurk in this site.
The thing is instead of influencing them, they don’t have the self-awareness to realise that they instead of that they are alienating them with their patronising comments.
As the saying goes, don’t interrupt an opponent when they are making mistakes.
@ Brotherhood 10.32 pm
Gang canny mister – you’re on thin ice.
The phrase “like being savaged by a dead sheep” springs to mind.
Why would you drawing an incorrect inference mean I was somehow on thin ice?
@ Stuart mactavish 7.59 am
As far as I can see (albeit without doing my own research) Sara has the luxury of being armed with irrefutable substantiation.
Really? I must have missed this asserted “irrefutable substantiation”? Perhaps you can link to it? Is it supported by peer reviewed analysis from subject matter experts, rather than the analysis of former investigative journalist / writer / producer / educator?
We’ll wait…..
Accordingly ignorance can no longer be an excuse and those in the positions of responsibility you speak of will be obliged to work with it whether they believe it or not, particularly if they are to remain (to be seen to be) fit for high public office (ie competent, incorruptible, sane, etc, etc)
I strongly suspect those in “positions of responsibility” will only take notice of “cunning plans for indy” when it is demonstrated both that they are widely accepted by the movement as proven beyond reasonable doubt to be the best or only route forward, AND when they demonstrably enjoy overwhelming public support in Scotland. Neither applies at the moment.
Increasing the knowledge of Scots about their history is a laudable enough aim in itself: whether that translates to support for alternative paths to independence and / or abandoning the referendum or plebiscitary election routes is very much open to question.
In particular, if you or anyone else thinks these novel routes to independence are going to bear fruit faster than concentrating on 2024 plebiscitary elections, I have some magic beans you might also be interested in buying?
@Pac Man 8.15 am
Andy Ellis and the other posters of his ilk are playing to the silent majority who only lurk in this site.
You are – for once – absolutely correct. There is little point trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with some of the BTL denziens here, as anyone reading the comments will know. That doesn’t mean the field should be left clear for them to trumpet their inanities. As J.S. Mill said in his inaugural address at St Andres in 1867:
“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”
The thing is instead of influencing them, they don’t have the self-awareness to realise that they instead of that they are alienating them with their patronising comments.
Some people might be alienated. Tough. I don’t care if some of the exceptionally unpleasant pieces of work in here are alienated. I’m self aware enough to recognise that those individuals who are, and their opinions in general, are those of a tiny fringe of extremists with little popular appeal and even less actual support.
Andy Ellis says:
29 July, 2022 at 8:37 pm
So on the one hand:
…and dozens of others who have never once advocated violence of any kind.
And on the other:
But mark this well George – the cork can’t be kept in the bottle indefinitely. […] there will be trouble down the line.
Hmmnnn….
Difficult to trust the insights of one who only sees manichaean alternatives of death of the movement or some unspecified “trouble” ahead.
I have to say I’ve been disturbed by the amount of talk round these parts about the use of violence as some sort of legitimate tactic (and let’s be clear about thia, it is exactly what they are doing).
So for the benefit of certain individuals, try talking to some of the old SnG lot about it. You’ll find them kicking around at the marches – pretty easy to spot. Black saltires, black t-shirts, tendency to looking over their shoulders as if they’re being tailed by MI5 spooks all the time among the more deranged, but generally friendly enough – especially if you say “what’s yours?”
The older ones will tell you about Andrew Neill “Tosh” MacIntosh. One of their stalwarts during the era when it was run with a rod of iron by ex-Scottish Republican Socialist Party leading light, Jackie Stokes, Tosh was a talented artist, a bit of a tortured soul, but someone terminally obsessed with politics “by other means”, suckered in by an embittered sacked MI5 operative based in a Dublin bedsit with only cheap whisky for company – one who was to sucker in many others before the Irish government and the booze caught up with him.
There is little doubt it cost Tosh his life, that his “suicide” in prison was murder – because the state will tolerate those who dabble with “politics by other means” only so far. When it becomes more than a handy way to train new agents by monitoring hobby revolutionaries, the time comes to stamp them out.
“Politics by other means” as a euphemism for thuggery in lieu of sound argument always ends in tears – quite often your own and those of the people you sought to inspire. Remember that even those great citizens who brought back the Stone of Scone from the thieves’ lair made it a central tenet of their task that no one was to be harmed in pursuit of their gallant actions.
How the can anyone know and confidently state what the silent majority of btl readers think, they are fucking silent, so haven’t expressed a view one way or the other.
Similar situation with self-appointed spokespersons speaking for the majority of the Indy movement, have they actually canvassed the entire movement on all the different views held.
I think not…
I have a simple request.
Would one of the individuals, who continually harp on about 300 year old treaties, colonialism, etc etc please enlighten those of us, who are not so wise, what they envisage the end result would be if matters panned out as the 6 of them want. In replying please also advise who decides the course of action to be taken and how.
If none of you are unable to provide a coherent, logical response may I politely request that you desist from commenting in future.
Over to you.
Hatuey @ 7.33
” On top of all that, we have the rabid BBC propaganda machine to contend with, as well as all the other MSM attack dogs.”
Yes indeed H . Added to which there is the incontrovertible fact UK/England is rapidly approaching an Event Horizon where even the light of Reason will be swallowed-up in the Black Hole of hardcore Right Wing Tory Neo Lib dogma .
The prospect of them * allowing * or respecting any manifestation of will of the Scottish people is precisely zero .
Unless , of course , that will manifests as another NO majority , which , if the Sturgeon/NSNP wrecking crew have their way is just about guaranteed
@Andy Ellis
Perhaps I could have been more clear.
One reason for my not having seen any evidence to refute Sara’s substantiation is because those with a vested interest in providing it (inc prospective MPs in 2024?), in places where I’d be most likely to have seen it, have not (yet?) bothered to do so.
As to the beans – provided the properties are specified upfront, and I get a couple of growing seasons to assure personal competence and quality of product, the potential for a healthy return in current climate remains excellent:
link to aarp.org
link to naturalsociety.com
If Scotland was a sovereign nation and now isn’t when did that come into effect and who
signed that off on Scotlands peoples behalf?
Dan says:
30 July, 2022 at 9:32 am
How the can anyone know and confidently state what the silent majority of btl readers think…
—
Someone with multiple personalities might have so many that they think they are the majority.
Someone with multiple personalities might have so many that they think they are the majority.
Being an anonymous snivelling online coward without the courage to own your views publicly doesn’t count as a multiple personality “Scott”.
Andy Ellis says:
30 July, 2022 at 11:58 am
Being an anonymous snivelling online coward without the courage to own your views publicly doesn’t count as a multiple personality “Scott”.
—
An expert speaks…
@Ellis (11.58) –
What happened to your observance of the new ‘personal attacks’ strictures?
Get a grip FFS.
Rev Stu has been doing a great job when it comes to highlighting the false promises on indyref2, and The National has played its part with headlines that you can see at the top of the page. This has been going on for years.
Another thing that’s been going on for years is an unacceptably high number of drugs-related deaths in Scotland. Every year new figures are released, every year we all hang our heads in despair, and every year some SNP spokesperson tells us something is going to be done — we really mean it this time…
It’s the same pattern of bullshit and inaction from the same people, year after year.
I noticed some people talking about the way drug-deaths are measured in Scotland, suggesting we aren’t doing ourselves any favours, but as far as I know that’s the way they have always been measured. You can’t move the goalposts now, and why on earth would you want to?
There’s no excuse for failure on this. None.
Breeks @8:01
I suspect that Queen Anne’s commissioners in England took the view that in order to please Her Maj, their job was to get the Union done.
As in the case of BJ, who had to be seen to get Brexit done, the treaty was signed with the intention that those elements regarded by the English as being unpalatable would be accepted on the basis that they were to be revisited at a later date of their choosing.
I could list the Articles of the Act which the English dominated Parliament of Great Britain, and it’s successor the Parliament of the United Kingdom, subsequently tore up, but they’re there to read for those who care to do so.
Perhaps Article 19 was one of those cans which got kicked down the road? It may be that the creation of the UKSC is the first step towards extinguishing Scots Law as a separate institution. Although given the stink surrounding Salmond, Murray and others I’d be hard pressed to shed any tears…
stuart mctavish says:
30 July, 2022 at 10:12 am
@Andy Ellis
Perhaps I could have been more clear.
One reason for my not having seen any evidence to refute Sara’s substantiation is because those with a vested interest in providing it (inc prospective MPs in 2024?), in places where I’d be most likely to have seen it, have not (yet?) bothered to do so.
——
Yes, it’s all a big conspiracy. The UK’s top constitutional lawyers and professors of law are hiding in fear at the prospect of a retired teacher cosplaying as constitutional expert. She’s played a blinder by uncovering super secret documents that will bypass all blocked routes to independence and set Scotland free. The same way that a Nigerian prince wants to send you millions of pounds.
“I don’t care about the Treaty of Union, most people don’t. I care about modern day issues such as the cost of living and securing my future.”
Chris Pike .
The latter can not be full addressed in Scotland until the former is dealt with first.
A competent Scottish government cannot run a country to its full extent without having all the levers of power a government needs, these levers can only be attained by full independence.
No countries government (if a capable government is in place) can run a country, grow its economy and progress with one hand tied behind its back as Scotland currently does.
The only way Scotland can grow and prosper is to dissolve this union.
Good turnout of Yes Bikers at Glenshee this afternoon. Managed to avoid rain showers so far… 🙂
Republic of Scotland
@30 July 2022
The only way Scotland can grow and prosper is to dissolve this union.
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Which can only be achieved with the consent of the majority of Scots. Win over hearts and minds with logic and facts that fit the modern world – stop harping back to medieval documents and falling for the garbage coming from the SSRG.