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Wings Over Scotland


Seventeen days later

Posted on December 03, 2015 by

This is Labour’s shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn, quoted in the Independent On Sunday on the 15th of November, just two and a half weeks ago.

hbenn

That’s interesting, isn’t it?

“Labour’s opposition to any British involvement in military action against Islamic State (Isis) in Syria has intensified, despite the massacre in Paris. 

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn said the co-ordinated attacks on the French capital, which left at least 127 dead, were an ‘act of war’ – but all but ruled out backing UK air strikes in response.

He said that the idea of British action against Isis in Syria should be put to one side until the country’s civil war had been brought to an end.

Mr Benn said the ‘terrible events in Paris’ meant it was ‘even more important that we bring the Syrian civil war to an end’ before considering air strikes on Isis. He outlined his thinking:

‘Why? Because the vacuum in which Isil/Daesh [Islamic State] in Syria thrives is a consequence of that civil war. Therefore I hope that the talks that are taking place really will redouble their efforts to say, look we’ve got a find a way of bringing this to a conclusion – we’ve got to bring this to an end. Because then, people can then really focus their efforts on the threat from Isil/Daesh and the circumstances in Syria will have changed.’ 

Mr Benn, who supports military intervention to protect civilians, said he did not think the Government was planning to come forward with a proposal to extend air strikes from Iraq into Syria.

But asked if he thought they should, Mr Benn said: ‘No.’ He added: ‘They have to come up with an overall plan, which they have not done. I think the focus for now is finding a peaceful solution to the civil war.'”

We’re fairly sure the civil war in Syria HASN’T ended. The comments above were made AFTER the Paris attacks. We don’t think ISIS, who Benn called “fascists” in his speech last night, only became so at some point in late November, after he wanted peace talks. And the bombing proposed by Parliament last night will do nothing to protect civilians. Indeed, it’s all but inevitable it will kill more of them.

Given all that, we suspect that we’re not the only people who’d quite like to know what changed Mr Benn’s mind. We do hope someone in the media asks him today.

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    409 to “Seventeen days later”

    1. Steve Bowers says:

      I’m sure it’ll be lead story on all news channels tonight with some hard questions being asked of him

    2. Angus Anderson says:

      Simples – he can see the leadership opportunity that is coming!

    3. gerry parker says:

      A hint of a Place in the Lords?

    4. tartanfever says:

      Glenn Greenwald hasn’t asked, but he’s highlighted the article.

      https://twitter.com/ggreenwald

      Hoping someone closer to home might confront Benn…

    5. Quinie frae Angus says:

      I can only imagine that what’s changed his mind is that he’s been given a nod and a wink by the Blairites that he’s going to be Jeremy’s replacement once they get “their” party back.

    6. heedtracker says:

      It is disgusting but how they all cheered. Clearly it’s Benn’s bid for red tory leadership and why not exploit the horror of war. Another Blair/Brown red tory legacy boots up.

    7. David McCann says:

      King Corbyn is dead.

      Long live King Benn!

    8. Andy Borland says:

      Who knew the road to Damascus went via Leeds?

    9. Training Day says:

      The only thing that ‘journalists’ will be doing re Benn is braying approval of his ‘fantastic speech’ in the manner of their paymasters at Westminster last night.

    10. alexicon says:

      Another principled Labour politician I see.

      Strange how this vote has divided Scotland, no talk of this division from the unionists now is there.

      I also see it is okay to talk about the Labour MPs who voted with the government as being ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’ according to the daily heil.
      Of course it’s not trolling.

    11. Embradon says:

      Could be he spotted the opportunity of a leadership bid.

      I think that is probably more likely than a “consultancy” from an arms manufacturer.

    12. Grey dug says:

      The police have concluded their investigation into the earth tremor which occurred during Hilary Benn’s speech last night. Turns out that it was just his father revolving in his grave.

    13. Clootie says:

      Benn is an opportunistic man embrassing two truths!

    14. Anagach says:

      A man with his eye on the main chance.

      His father would weep.

    15. ahundredthidiot says:

      Cut a deal after he read the script given to him to read in HoC and promise of full swing media attempt to sell his leadership bid to the minions.

      The lure of power is too strong for the weak minded.

      There’s me thinking Lord of the Rings was a piece of fiction.

    16. Jimbo says:

      Probably just another Labour back-stabber who’s part of a plot to get rid of Corbyn – Perhaps the Blairites have decided Benn’s the top candidate to usurp Corbyn and take the Labour Party back to the right?

      Cameron certainly looked smugly pleased during Benn’s speech.

    17. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Says it all and sums up Labour completely.

      Weather Cock!

    18. Macart says:

      He has a dagger in his hand with Corbyn’s name on it. They sell them wholesale on ebay just for Labour politicians I’m told.

    19. Bob Mack says:

      I hear that moves are already afoot to try and deselect the Labour candidates who voted Yes to war. Apparently activists are going round constituencies to collect sufficient objections to force the issue.

      Hope they can still laugh and congratulate each other if that is happening
      Until they are gone the Labour Party is irrevocably split.
      Wonder how Labouf activists felt watching that fiasco yesterday?

    20. Luigi says:

      There must have been a Lady McBenn in the shadows, urging him to stab his leader in the back. Either that, or the three witches convinced him he would soon be king and he made his move.

      Hail MacBenn!

    21. McBoxheid says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      3 December, 2015 at 1:17 pm

      Cut a deal after he read the script given to him to read in HoC and promise of full swing media attempt to sell his leadership bid to the minions.

      The lure of power is too strong for the weak minded.

      There’s me thinking Lord of the Rings was a piece of fiction.

      Lord of the Ring-pieces more like!

    22. Stephen kilday says:

      My my, what a leadership platform opportunity, screw principles and truth. His father would be ashamed!!

    23. Lochside says:

      If any remaining SLAB voters cannot get the reality that Labour are part of the British American Project, an organisation that seeks ‘to ensure the left and liberal intelligentsia are not hostile to US foreign policy initiatives’. Founded in 1985, coincidentally around the emergence of ‘NEW’ Labour, then they never will.

      Hilary and his Labour tractors are only doing what they’re paid to do.

    24. peter says:

      The only explanation for this stab in the back of his leader, is that he wants to be the opposition leader himself … this just goes to show you, what kind of man he is!! they say the apple never fall far from the tree??? maybe he was adopted ..

    25. Lesson from all of this is don’t trust a word that comes out of Hilary Benn’s mouth

    26. I wonder if Hilary met three witches on his way to the Commons.

    27. Lollysmum says:

      Rather than having an epiphany perhaps ‘someone’ brought some leverage to bear on Mr Benn the younger & very pale imitation of the older statesman? Complete 180 degree reversal of his opinion suggests something fishy happened in the last few days.

    28. Famous15 says:

      Would it not have been cheaper and better for the greater good to have given Cameron,Osborne carmichael,Mundell.Benn et al a prescription of testosterone or even invite them to a pissing conteat?

    29. Proud Cybernat says:

      Salmond’s comments to Adam Bolton last night on Sky news were spot on. Why did John Bercow allow the debate to be summarised by two pro-war speakers, Benn and Hammond? An utter disgrace.

    30. Bob Mack says:

      Perhaps he has bought shares in the “Brimstone” firm.

      No offence,but I can’t trust a man called Hillary.

      Reminds me of a boy named Sue I used to fight with. Wonder what happened to him ?

    31. Proud Cybernat says:

      “We do not want to walk by on the other side of the road.”

      No, you want to fly by in the air and kill innocents. The problem you have, sabernats, is that you NEED boots on the road to have any chance of this nonsense reaching a ‘successful’ conclusion.

    32. T.roz says:

      What a rancid thing to do, making the case for war, to gain personal political elevation. I actually thought his speech was crap, totally over theatrical and fake.

    33. Dr Ew says:

      Well, Hilary Benn’s performance last night certainly confirmed the case…

      …the case AGAINST the heredity principle.

    34. Kenzie says:

      Re Camoron: didn’t the late old Bibliophile Michael Foot say that “any man who tries to be macho usually hasn’t got very mucho” He’s spot on there. Camoron will never be a man as long as he has a hole in his arse pointing downwards.

      As for Benn; he will never be half the man his father was.

      All those who voted for this gross error are truly beneath contempt.

    35. Almannysbunnet says:

      He gave a rousing speech. The HOC was clearly aroused. I’m sure I saw several Tories and Blairites close their eyes and shudder with excitement as they came together during his speech.
      Red tories? They are turning blue before our eyes! Hillary Clinton in charge of the USA and Hillary Benn in charge of the UK? Not sure which party Benn will be leading though.

    36. gillie says:

      It’s all about Labour and NOTHING to do with bombing Syria.

      We have two political lightweights in Corbyn and Benn fighting over the future of Labour; and the Syrians will pay in blood for whoever wins.

    37. tamson says:

      I’ve seen various “How your MP voted” breakdowns, but I wonder how strong the correlation between voting Yes and being a member of a parliamentary Friends of Israel society was?

    38. Neil Cook says:

      Pratt !!

    39. Cuilean says:

      Benn also, mighty fishily, forgets his speech sentiments on armistice day this year 11 Nov 2015:

      http://press.labour.org.uk/post/132995023614/the-case-for-a-stronger-united-nations-to-protect

    40. Bob Mack says:

      I love films and the history of films.
      One screenwriter when asked to write words for Arnold Schwarzenneger portraying Conan the Barbarian,thought for a while and eventually came up with what he imagined a mindless Barbarian would say in a few words about the 3 best things in life ; it goes

      ” Crush your enemies,drive them before you, and hear the lamentation of their women”

      Westminster could have a new role in films!! Screenplays for Barbarians!

    41. Grouse Beater says:

      What altered Benn’s mind was the opportunity he spied to seize leadership of the Labour party, and in full theatrical glare of the House and the public, indelible on the historic record, his chance to become prime minister, everything his father failed to do.

      It’s all about ‘power’, remember?

      The population, Syrian or British, is merely a means to that end.

      Benn might himself say “It’s only a matter of time.”

    42. Iain More says:

      Stephen kilday says:

      “My my, what a leadership platform opportunity, screw principles and truth. His father would be ashamed!!”

      That is a polite way of saying it. The Brit Nat Press and Media will be hounding you now to withdraw your comments Stephen. Well they would be if your name was Alex Salmond. His father would indeed be birling in his grave, Benn’s that is.

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      It is reported in the New Statesman :-

      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/tony-benn-s-granddaughter-calls-alex-salmond-retract-burling-his-grave

      That, “Tony Benn’s granddaughter calls for Alex Salmond to retract “burling in his grave” comment.”

      Do you think we should tell her that her hearing aid seems to be malfunctioning?

      Or perhaps that in fact Salmond was actually complementing her Grandfather?

    44. Iain More says:

      Due to my 24/7 carer stint I had to sit through Disreporting Jackie or Disreporting Sally as it was today.

      I had to listen to more guff about locals had been noticing increased activity from RAF Lossie in the last couple of weeks. Well discounting the NATO exercise that was recently held, the increased activity has been ongoing for months and not weeks as the lying BBC claimed.

      It has been obvious that we were being cranked up for a war months ago. From months before the last NATO exercise in fact.

      I can hear jets screaming past the house again right now. But then the BBC and Britannia TV Aberdeen have cameras at Lossie right the now, no doubt collecting shots of the jets to be fed to the more gullible viewers.

    45. Ruglonian says:

      ‘And it’s 1 2 3 what are we fighting for?
      Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn…’
      🙁

    46. Bill Hume says:

      What a mess. What a complete and utter mess. I’m beyond anger and beyond tears. I want these nasty, nasty men to go away.

    47. dakk says:

      That reminds me of the old cartoon- Mr Benn-,where he goes into the changing room,puts on new sets of clothes and becomes a new character each time.

      Those cartoons were obviously a bigger influence on him than his father.

      Doesn’t say much for either of them.

    48. Graham MacLure says:

      Can’t help wondering how many Blue Tory “plants” there are in the Red Tories.
      Using occam’s razor all London based political parties are one party.

      The English Ruling Party.

    49. Robert Louis says:

      Ho ho, you really need to laugh at the mad unionists this morning, complaining about Alex Salmond saying Tony Ben would be birling in his grave. Ooh, the ‘offense’.

      Yet one more example of the manufactured ‘outrage’ perpetrated by unionists. I can only hope Alex Salmond repeats the comment. It is not offensive, and is a well used turn of phrase used day in, day out by the media, writers and politicians.

      Forget faux fur, up here in Scotland we have faux unionist offense. What a pathetic bunch.

    50. Wulls says:

      The apple has fallen further from the tree than I would have believed possible.

    51. Stuart says:

      And yet an Independent Scotland would have bombed Syria!

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/syria-action-backed-under-independence-salmond-1-3071423

      “AN independent Scotland would not have rejected the prospect of military intervention in Syria like the UK has done, Alex Salmond said today.”

      Well, well, but hey the SNP are never hypocritical!

      Mair faces than the toon clock…

      So now in 2015 a UN resolution is in place supporting action in Syria, and the Assad regime has used chemical weapons

      As if it was good enough for an Indy Scotland to bomb Syria, what are all you Nats beeling about then?

    52. Karmanaut says:

      This article by the Financial Times explains why the US-led Coalition has not bombed oil fields.

      http://goo.gl/lcoHCL

      “The importance of Isis oil to those living in rebel-held areas of Syria is one reason why the US-led coalition has been reluctant to target the group’s trade routes. The coalition says it is wary of alienating local populations by bombing fuel now critical for their daily lives.”

      This is exactly why bombing is useless without a ground force to back it up.

      War without a plan.

      Personally, I think the main reason Cameron is joining in the bombing is because he wants to be able to stake a claim when they sit round the table to carve Syria up after the war.

      Maybe Isreal gets to keep the Golan heights and the billion barrels of oir discovered there recently? The west divvies up the rest of Syria’s oil and also gets their oil pipeline through Syria from Iraq.

      Then they buy off Putin by promising NOT to build the gas pipeline from Qatar, thus leaving Russia as Europe’s main supplier, and by letting him keep his deal with Syria to exploit offshore gas in the med (which is why he’s backing Assad, after all).

    53. Macart says:

      @Robert Louis

      THAT’S what offends them?

      I’m offended by the fact that people are about to die and our names are signed on the dotted line for this f*****g folly of theirs. I couldn’t give a flying **** just how offended they are that Mr Benn is called out for being exactly what he is. Pro bombing!

      Frankly if being offended at opinion is their top worry right now, I reckon they should maybe reassess their priorities.

    54. Andy says:

      Maybe he simply changed his mind.

      I thought the speech was an excellent one and it summed up the case for the minor extension of the current bombing in Iraq( which has successfully helped to stop ISIS taking Baghdad).

      The point about fascism and Nazism was well made.

      When we finally got round to opposing the Nazis the only way to destroy them was to defeat them completely and unconditionally. This also had the benefit of destroying their ideology as a realistic power in Germany.

      Cameron’s policy in Libya, and his mad idea of attacking Assad in 2013, were both totally wrong. He’s right this time though, and Hilary Benn was right to support him with his wonderful speech.

    55. Andrew McLean says:

      Sorry of topic
      I listened to call Kaye this morning I know I shouldn’t on the account of its utter craziness,
      But heard a complete waste of Space say how embarrassed he is to be Scottish, its being bugging me all morning.

      When Thatcher was in power and destroying our industry, I didn’t feel embarrassed, though I did shout at her in Perth. When Labour were in power I didn’t feel embarrassed, when we only had a handful of MP, s and weren’t even the party in control of Holyrood no embarrassment felt.

      When politics changed, and the SNP rose I didn’t feel embarrassed, when we lost the referendum I didn’t feel embarrassed. When I see Scots of all nations and colours I don’t feel embarrassed, when I see a new crossing on the forth or the new super hospital or the new university building I don’t feel embarrassed. When I listen to first ministers questions I don’t feel embarrassed.

      When I think of all Scotland and its people have given the world in so many ways I don’t feel embarrassed. In our darkest nights and brightest days I don’t feel embarrassed.

      How can the sentence I am embarrassed by the country I call home, how can it stand. What nation on earth would have a presenter or host not stop the caller right there and question his statement? What nation on earth has people who are embarrassed by their nationality, and would call a radio programme to declare it to the world?

      Scotland is a cosmopolitan country with many people from many backgrounds, trying to get buy and live a full life, with all its joys and sadness.

      Honestly if you are embarrassed then in absolute sincerity I think you should look around at the beautifully vibrant imaginative country you live in. And if after all that you still feel embarrassed then the fault is deep inside you and you have my most profound sympathy.

    56. K1 says:

      I’m with you Lollysmum, on this. Though I agree completely about his speech fulfilling the oratory part of the test on his application form for the Labour leader job.

      It does seem ‘odd’ that within the space of two and a half weeks that this complete turn around has occurred. GIven that it is the ‘establishment’ who decide who’s next in line for ‘imagined’ greatness, they either have something ‘on him’ or he’s been made a promise of further ‘enhancement’ further down the line.

      The two are not mutually exclusive either.

      I wonder what he’s been up to?

    57. Robert Graham says:

      He should have been fired as he tried to sit down in full view of all the other spineless MPs behind him, gutless cowards , just one of many times they have supported these Tory liars

    58. mike cassidy says:

      Could the byelection today in a previously very safe labour seat hanging on a shoogly nail have been on Benn’s mind as well?

      Well you don’t want to go head to head with UKIP having just declined to blow foreigner to bits, do you?

      The Labour candidate said he would have voted no.

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/oldham-election-corbyn-hasnt-hurt-6938113

    59. alexicon says:

      Tell me Stuart, are westminster going after Assad, because you seem a tad confused.

    60. frogesque says:

      “A week is a long time in politics”, as somebody once said.

      Aparently, 17 days is a different universe when there’s a chance of becoming Labour’s new heed honcho. So what if a few non consequential brown children get crispy fried when a career is at stake?

    61. ahundredthidiot says:

      Stuart

      Go take yer medicine and hay a wee lie doon

    62. Bob Mack says:

      @Stuart,

      You are a diddy.

      Read the article not the headline to find out what contribution an independent Scotland could make. If it is too much for you to go more than a paragraph ” bumping” the word sounds, maybe an adult could help you

    63. Benn’s speech was grandstanding of the highest order and it’s content said more about his own political ambition than principle. As the article from The Independent indicates, his position altered by 180° inside 17 days. I think most political observers recognised his speech for what it was.

    64. Macart says:

      For the hard of understanding

      “The First Minister said Scottish MPs at Westminster backed the possibility of action through the UN – if the use of chemical weapons had been proved by weapons inspectors.

      This gives an “indication” of the way an independent Scotland would have acted, Mr Salmond said in a speech in Fraserburgh.”

    65. Gary45% says:

      There seems to be a mentality, that to become a great leader you must have to tick the “went to war” box.
      Sam Cam, must have had the little lord Fauntleroy costume(wanker size) laid out for Dave when he got in from his work last night.
      He probably spent the night running round No10 on his imaginary horse with a pathetic little plastic sword, shouting (you decide).

      Hameron and Mr Benn, The pantomime horse with an arsehole at each end.

    66. Dave MacIntyre says:

      I agree @Bob Mack, it’s about having a plan backed up by the UN for conflict resolution and not the easy butchers apron approach of this mob.

    67. msean says:

      They settled will of the Labour party is Mr Corbyn as leader,now his own MPs undermining him in parliament.

    68. Frazerio says:

      BBC (Back in yer Box Cockjocks) lunchtime news guy said “by all accounts” Benn’s speech was being highly praised.

      BY ALL ACCOUNTS?????

      Westminster bubble indeed.

      When Sturgeon was railroaded pre election into giving a ‘material change’ example, she used the EU ref. If last nights example of Scottish MP’s voting overwhelmingly against airstrikes, but the UK voting for a bombing campaign, isn’t a material change, what the hell is?

      At least Labour are further exposing themselves to rUK (Benn obviously has been elected as the leader of the forthcoming coup against Corbyn), as they did to us during Indyref, but what makes them soooooooo beyond contempt is they’re politicking with innocent lives.

      This is sickening.

    69. HandandShrimp says:

      I see today that Cameron, rapturous in the happy afterglow of a good bombing, is telling us that we are in for a long haul and that we will be involved in Syria for years.

      He might have mentioned that last night.

      I said last night over on the Groaniard in a fairly lengthy piece that the die is cast now we can count our regrets at leisure.

      As for Labour, I am struggling to care any more. Whatever it is they have got I don’t want.

    70. dakk says:

      My comment above re the Mr Benn series was not quite on the mark.

      Having wiki-ied it,Mr Benn went into the world of the fancy dress outfit he tried on.

      There was usually a moral to the story and he came back out of the secret door with a small souvenir of his magical adventure.

      The Mr Hilary Benn story however is an amoral one.

      What souvenir will he be holding on return from his playing God,or Soldiers in Syria.

      Blood spattered entrails perhaps.

      Oh for the innocence of childhood and the good Mr Benn.It would make you weep.

    71. woosie says:

      Andrew McLean;

      Yes, I heard that call on “call kay-e”. Judging from the caller’s plummy, reluctantly-Scots accent, I’d say he was embarrassed about being Scottish long before the hoc vote.

      I’m never embarrassed about being Scottish; on the contrary, I am embarrassingly proud of it!

      Actually, the only embarrassment I’m feeling right now is from admitting that I listened to radio scotchland!

    72. MJS Dundee says:

      Partly on topic …

      Whilst driving there, was listening to Cosgrove and Eammon-something reviewing how the BBC and press was dealing with the Syria debacle on the John Beattie show. (Radio Northpleb, I know … ).

      However, I’ve seldom heard the BBC and MSM take a hiding like this on air. They tore lumps out of the lot of them taking no prisoners whatsoever. The Tory press X-box version of warfare in multi-page spreads c/w illustrations. The ignoring of ‘pinpoint’ bombing ‘collateral’ – until the pics turn up of a massacred wedding (or similar) when it all sours suddenly and they notice there never was any actual plan or strategy. Pointed out that if you watched Cameron in action yesterday side-by-side with Blair in WM presenting on the dodgy dossier, you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference between them. So true, same damned mistake all over.

      JB didn’t seem sure what to make of any of this, but was completely unable to tempt/draw them into a “more balanced” (a la BBC) position.

      That was something, but what came along shortly was an even bigger shock for any of us used to standard BUM Broadcasting/print media.

      Beattie wanted to discuss how the BUMs had treated Andy Murray following the Davis cup thing. One of his commentariat, with the full support of the other, laid into the treatment Murray got on Twitter following the win. How he was called an un-British “tractor” who didn’t really want to Britland to win, foul language galore, endless nastiness towards Murray. Discussing that on the back of his decision to vote Yes and the previous horrendous pressure he came under to drape himself in the Butcher’s Apron.

      JB, of course, didn’t know anything about any attacks on Murray and couldn’t comment directly. Of course. Did that really happen? So surprised was he. (Yeah right).

      It then goes off into why absolutely none of the BUMs reported on the vile Onionist twitterating of Murray and (joy of joys) they jump into how the press would have been all over it had JKR or any of other UKOKs been the subject of the abuse. JB – ho hum, yes well … . And how dare Northpleb Murray criticise the jolly Lawn Tennis Association (another Cucumber Sandwich Vicar?). Implying that the jolly posh Pimms club may not be up to training and supporting winners.

      When you’re still thinking that this couldn’t possibly be being broadcast on Radio Northpleb, the pair of them then get stuck in about The Trump. On the basis that the Washington Post had openly called him a racist bigot, citing a long list of quotes and positions clearly marking him out as such. It would be fair to say they didn’t like The Trump or his positions and much shame was expressed that he has anything to do with Scotland at all.

      I’m still in shock lads and lasses and you’ll know why. This was public radio/commentary/punditry like we actually need and want to hear. I doubt it will last – and am dreading the warmongering surely on tonight’s menu, but today, if only for a few minutes, there was a glimmer on Radio NorthPleb.

      One day, all Scottish broadcasting will be like that. And that day is getting closer by the minute. Bring it on … .

    73. proudscot says:

      Stuart – obviously you failed to read the full content of what Alex Salmond actually said on the subject of an independent Scotland’s possible support of action through the UN – if the use of chemical weapons had been proved!

      Word to the SNPBad intellectually challenged – take the advice of Jeff Dugdale to his daughter Kezia – “please ensure brain is engaged before mouth is operated!”

    74. Capella says:

      Mhairi Black tweeted this video of Tony Benn speaking out against bombing in Iraq. Jeremy Corbyn sits behind him. What a world away from Benn junior.
      2 min
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfXmpJRZPYI

    75. Anagach says:

      “Stuart says:

      And yet an Independent Scotland would have bombed Syria!”

      An Independent Scotland would have helped any UN plan for the future of Syria.

      Perhaps you can read, and just don’t know the difference.

    76. Bobby mcpherson says:

      From Nicola Surgeon:If you disagree with westminster’s vote for airstrikes, you can make your voice heard here #SyriaVote https://t.co/2K9cFsUTPS

    77. Will Podmore says:

      Benn is a disgrace. Parliament is a disgrace.
      President Assad’s forces are fighting ISIS. NATO policy is to oust the leader of the forces fighting ISIS. Assad’s departure would be a victory for ISIS.
      So all this talk from Cameron, Benn and other warmongers about bombing Syria to fight ISIS is a lie.
      The target, as it was in 2013, is still Assad. The beneficiaries of NATO policy would be ISIS, just as the beneficiaries of Cameron’s Libya policy were ISIS.

    78. Petra says:

      You can clearly see what’s been going on here. Wee (or big) group hug whispering plans in each others ears as to how to oust Corbyn and replace him with Benn. Doesn’t matter if the personal (or party) plans result in even more collective death and destruction, as that’s the Tory (red and blue) way.

      And of course Hilary Benn would give his niece a wee hug and whisper in her ear .. ask her to complain that Alex Salmond has upset her by mentioning that the grand-daddy that she adored may be ‘burling in his grave’ … and by God we ALL know that that’s true …. including Hilary Benn.

      One thing for sure is that it looks as though she’ll follow in her uncle’s footsteps, not grand-daddys, as it would seem that she’s more focused on one grave site than the hundreds or thousands that her uncle will help to create.

    79. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graham MacLure says: 3 December, 2015 at 2:12 pm:

      ” … The English Ruling Party.

      In fact, Graham, it has been known as, “The Establishment”, since the Romans first recorded Britain’s History from even before Christ was born.

      It has also always re-written history to suit the ruling southern faction as the differing Roman historical records show. The Romans sent reports back to Rome that spun the history to enhance the Roman General in Britain’s political ambitions back in Rome. We know this from the concurrent Roman Records that tell different historic stories.

      Since then it has been just different factions of the Germanic tribes doing the same after the Southern British invited them to settle in Britain.

      It is not generally understood that the name, “Normans”, for the Germanic faction who brought us the feudal system that still has the hereditary royals, and hereditary peers sitting in the House of Lords, is a corruption of the name, “Norsemen”.

      These it was who were also invited to settle in what became Normandy and then invaded the Germanic Anglo Saxons in South Britain and took over.

      The Establishment has been attempting to rule over all Britain since there was written history and have always spun the history to suit themselves.

      The southern ruling elite were, and are, “The Establishment”.

    80. Dr Jim says:

      Do you get promotion from the Tory Red Team to the Tory Blue Team?

    81. Andrew McLean says:

      Stuart says: at 2 December 2015 10:18 pm

      Which Alex Salmond are we talking about?The one who spoke today?Or THIS Alex Salmond in favour of bombing Syria in 2013?http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/syria-action-backed-under-independence-salmond-1-3071423“AN independent Scotland would not have rejected the prospect of military intervention in Syria like the UK has done, Alex Salmond said today.The First Minister said Scottish MPs at Westminster backed the possibility of action through the UN – if the use of chemical weapons had been proved by weapons inspectors. This gives an “indication” of the way an independent Scotland would have acted, Mr Salmond said in a speech in Fraserburgh.”Seems the SNP have mair faces than the toon clock!In case someone says chemical weapons have not been used in Syria, yes they have, and the UN has mandated action.The SNP’s stance on Syria is nothing more than naked opportunism, to score a few cheap points.So will the real Alex Salmond kindly stand up!

      Being completely rubbished he tries again 3 December 2015 2:18 pm

      And yet an Independent Scotland would have bombed Syria!http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/syria-action-backed-under-independence-salmond-1-3071423“AN independent Scotland would not have rejected the prospect of military intervention in Syria like the UK has done, Alex Salmond said today.”Well, well, but hey the SNP are never hypocritical!Mair faces than the toon clock…So now in 2015 a UN resolution is in place supporting action in Syria, and the Assad regime has used chemical weaponsAs if it was good enough for an Indy Scotland to bomb Syria, what are all you Nats beeling about then?

      Ok Stuart I like you, bit lazy on your part but I will explain how it works.

      What we do here is have a discourse using the dialectical method, that is two or more people holding different points of view about a subject communicate using the Revs organ whilst wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments backed up hopefully with empirical data.
      What you have done is postulated an argument, but used the wrong evidence, actually you use evidence that refutes your own argument. In case you miss my point you have made yourself look stupid.

      I take it you are that which Ms Dugdale spoke of, one who don’t read too good?

    82. Luigi says:

      Irony of ironies:

      Was it or was it not Tony Benn who first introduced the idea that politicians were either signposts or weathercocks (on Youtube methinks)?

      There can be no doubt, Hillary Benn is a Deluxe Weathercock with 180 degree capability!

    83. Bob Mack says:

      @Will Podmore.

      The penny finally dropped.Almost.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @Wulls says: 3 December, 2015 at 2:17 pm:

      “The apple has fallen further from the tree than I would have believed possible”.

      Speaking for myself I always found Anthony Wedgewood Benn to be far more a hollow man than he led the commons to believe himself to be.

      I always thought him a sham. I see no reason to change my opinion since he has died.

    85. caz-m says:

      A minor point regarding last nights bombing of the ISIL oil fields in Syria.

      If the RAF blew up these oil fields, would you not see the smoke burning from miles away?

      I remember when the oil fields were blown up during the Iraq War and you could see those fields burning from hundreds of miles away.

      Maybe Reporting Scotland will have video of the burning oil fields on tonight’s programme.

      Or have we just to take their word for it.

    86. Dr Jim says:

      Some people are talking about Scotlands contribution

      Is that what we’re calling it now a “Contribution”

    87. Ken MacColl says:

      Commenting on the Hilary Benn speech just after the announcement of the vote last night someone said that it was an impressive, if somewhat over the top bid for party leadership, although it could be argued that it was not absolutely clear which party was the target. This was further confused by the enthusiastic reception accorded by the ranks of Tory MPS.
      I understood that clapping to indicate approval was “bad form” and “unparliamentary behaviour” but far worse things than that happened in the Commons last night

    88. Petra says:

      @ Capella at 2:52pm …….

      Thanks for the video of Tony Benn denouncing the War in Iraq Capella. Did you notice that he looked as though he was ‘filling up’ at one point near the end of the video? Obviously had a big heart.

      Therein lies the difference between him and his despicable son. Tony Benn could empathise with the people of Iraq and had compassion for them. Hilary Benn quite obviously doesn’t give a sh*t for anyone at all .. other than himself / great big ego. Thinks, ha, ha, that he’s going to save the Labour Party … be the next Prime Minister.

      The proof of that is now on record, the Benn 17 day U-turn, for all the World to see.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Stuart says: 3 December, 2015 at 2:18 pm:

      “And yet an Independent Scotland would have bombed Syria!

      Utter pish!

      What is more, Stuart, your idiocy has already been shown and your misquoted claims been discredited.

      Only an idiot would return to repeat the same pish that had already been shown as lies. You are such an idiot.

    90. Lesley-Anne says:

      I’m sorry folks but there is only one thing I can say about THAT vote last night!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztZI2aLQ9Sw

      One other thought did cross my mind just now and it is that now that the bacon lover has his way and the R.A.F.are now bombing in Syria how long will we have to wait before we have another Paris or 7/7 styled attack in London, Manchester, Birmingham,Glasgow or Edinburgh?

      To be honest I don’t think Glasgow is in much fear … remember we have the Smeatonator living near there. 😀

    91. Luigi says:

      Bobby mcpherson says:

      3 December, 2015 at 3:00 pm

      From Nicola Surgeon:If you disagree with westminster’s vote for airstrikes, you can make your voice heard here

      #SyriaVote https://t.co/2K9cFsUTPS

      Signed. Still climbing fast. It would be great to get it over 100,000 signatures. Otherwise they will just say it is only SNP members!

      C’mon folks!

    92. Petra says:

      @ Luigi says at 3:12 pm ”Irony of ironies: Was it or was it not Tony Benn who first introduced the idea that politicians were either signposts or weathercocks (on Youtube methinks)? There can be no doubt, Hillary Benn is a Deluxe Weathercock with 180 degree capability!”

      That’s right Luigi and Mhairi Black mentioned him / WC and signposts in her Maiden Speech.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZAmhB55_-k

    93. ahundredthidiot says:

      Duh……I’m confused

      Bomb Isis?

      Aren’t they on our side?

      This Assad guy, duh…is he on our side?, no, Russia welcomes UK to the fight…..so, are we allies, no?

      OK, we will fight Assad then? But he’s backed by Russia..

      Truth is already a casualty. Bullshit baffles brains.

      Rule brittania, God save the queen, quack quack.

    94. During the last 15 months, approximately 8,200 air strikes (an average of almost 18 per day) have been made by “allied” forces, mostly American, at ISIS targets stretching across the Iraq/Syrian border.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27838034

      Perhaps one of our British war mongers can explain how increasing the number of air strikes by a measly amount with addition of a couple of ancient Tornado jets will magically reduce the recruitment rate within ISIS?

    95. manandboy says:

      WHAT CHANGED HILARY BENN’S MIND

      Whatever it was, it was an offer he couldn’t refuse. But whoever made him the offer, then attempted to cover it up with the story of how Benn had written the speech while sitting on the Labour benches. The BBC made a point of telling us on the 10pm news, and not just once.

      But how did Hilary then produce page after page of typed text at the dispatch box. And, if the speech was composed by himself and no one else, why did his eyes rarely leave the page during delivery. In fact, he gave the impression that he was reading the text very carefully indeed, so as not to add or subtract even a word.

      Odd too, that having spoken on the bombing a mere 17 days previously, offering a clear anti-bomb opinion, Benn made no reference to his stunning change of mind. Are we to believe that his change of mind occurred during the debate itself. Had that been so then he would surely have given some clue as to such a late ‘conversion’ to the Tory cause.

      Then there is the content and structure of the speech which indicate that much time and effort had gone into it. But in addition, his speech avoided the weaknesses in Cameron’s case, while emphasising Labour history and the Uk’s emotional ties with our close allies, the French. You couldn’t make it up; but someone did. But who?

      Was the whole Benn speech stage managed; prepared beforehand in secret? Sounds like the Tories, feels like the Tories. And Benn is a red tory.

      Cameron has been preparing for months to go to war. This was his big chance, after Paris. But he needed to be sure he would win the vote when it was debated. Benn was the ace up his sleeve. Just like the last minute Vow before the Independence Referendum. It’s hard not to repeat a winning trick.

    96. frogesque says:

      I feel so helpless but is there any way we could make this THE Christmas No.1?

      Bob Dylan : Masters of War

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exm7FN-t3PY

    97. Muscleguy says:

      @Andy Borland

      The road to Damascus might indeed pass through Leeds. Depends where you are starting out out from, surely? The road to Damascus also goes through Guangzou and Johannesburg.

    98. dramfineday says:

      Andy Borland @1:02 – Big Grin Andy – enjoyed that observation

    99. Sooz says:

      According to one SNP MP, some Labour MPs were last night running around to get Benn’s autograph.

      Seriously.

      This was a leadership bid. I can almost hear the deal being done. “Hillary old bean, the leadership is yours if you’ll just back Cameron for this bombing thing.”

      He says the government’s plan had merit enough to support it. It did not. Anyone with even a short memory span would have remembered that the motion was predicated on there being sufficient ground forces to secure the areas once they’d been bombed. The 70,000 was a complete fabrication. Therefore by the government’s own advice, bombing would be pointless without ground troops as back up. Its bombing for bombing’s sake, not because it will make a difference, and many Syrians will be killed.

      There is an alternative strategy that doesn’t involve murdering Syrians in their beds, but the warmongers didn’t want that. They wanted to bomb.

      To hell with all the warmongers. To hell with them.

    100. caz-m says:

      Luigi

      Re: #SyriaVote

      I signed the petition last night.

      Do the SNP intend to do anything with it when it reaches a certain number?

    101. Capella says:

      Mhairi Black regarded Tony Benn as an inspiring politician and I agree – mostly. He had his faults too as Robert Peffers says, not 100% trustworthy from a Scottish point of view. But very genuine in the above clip. And not a Blairite.

      Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert are on the money with the share prices af weapons companies soaring again. Brimstone manufacturers will be delighted by yesterday’s turn of events.
      https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/324089-episode-max-keiser-843/

    102. K1 says:

      Andrew, ‘different points of view about a subject communicate using the Revs organ’

      Dis the Rev know we’re using his ‘organ’ and which of his organs we’re using?

      Made me laugh out loud….thanks! 😆

    103. Hugh Barclay says:

      Could it be he was leaned on by his buddies in Friends of Israel? made him change his mind and toe the line?

    104. caz-m says:

      Tory Benn will be an ideal leader of London Labour.

      They can then get back to playing that famous Westminster game of Red Tory, Blue Tory. Where the two major Parties take shots each at keeping the London Establishment flourishing.

      And the rest of the UK fight for the crumbs.

    105. Thepnr says:

      Stuart

      Alex Salmond issued a clear statement two days before the vote in the commons on Syria in 2013. This is exactly what his view was.

      First Minister Statement on Syria
      28/08/2013 12:28
      Scotland First Minister

      As the UK Government prepares to put a resolution to the UN Security Council on “authorising necessary measures to protect civilians” in Syria later today, First Minister Alex Salmond said:

      “The Scottish Government condemns unreservedly the actions of the Assad regime over recent months and years. In particular, we condemn and deplore any use of chemical weapons by any party as a crime against humanity. If the findings of UN inspectors do point to this appalling attack having been perpetrated by the Syrian regime, Assad and those responsible should face the full accountability of the International Criminal Court.”

      “Any resort to military action should always be approached carefully, on an evidential base, and within a clear legal framework – and only after full consideration of the aims, objectives and consequences. At this stage, we consider that these criteria have not been met and therefore that the case for military action in Syria – or the UK’s participation in it – has not yet been made.”

      http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/First-Minister-Statement-on-Syria-376.aspx

      “The Scottish Government believes that the UN inspectors should be given the time and the full support of the international community to complete their investigations.”

    106. Andrew McLean says:

      Luigi says:
      3 December, 2015 at 3:26 pm
      Bobby mcpherson says:
      3 December, 2015 at 3:00 pm
      Done!

      But I want to sign a petition to get our two wonderfull MPs returned to our party.
      it is a common right in our nation that you are innocent till proved guilty, having looked at all the evidence presented by biased press I can see no reason not them to return.

      Google MP expenses scandals 2015 you cant go back further that 2010 because the Government destroyed them all.

    107. Giving Goose says:

      On LBC this morning they had Michael Portillo on to comment.
      He described Benn as leadership material.

      All that is happening is that the Establishment are trying to shoe horn in their man as leader of Her Majesty’s Labour-wing-of-the Tory Party.

      That man is Hilary Benn

    108. Dr Jim says:

      The people of the entire UK should be enraged and disgusted by the actions of their MPs in their support of last nights vote

      To burst into spontaneous applause and cheers at the prospect of killing anybody should be held in the utmost contempt and it makes those MPs who took part in that exhibition no better than the Lunatics they want to kill

      Killing somebody is not joyous or exuberance filling nor does it bring pleasure of the kind displayed by these war mongering rabid bench bum warming idiots whom I’m %100 sure will exhibit all the Faux tearful distress if or when our armed forces come to harm once again in this complete and total folly of an “Extension” as I believe they are calling it

      The ultimate goal, we are told (After we sort out the Nutters) is the removal of Assad, well just let me point something out to the “Death Eaters”
      Assad might not want to be removed and his pals the Russians might agree with him

      The French have already fallen for this nonsense and now so have the British, so that’s it, America now has the full set
      So America gets what it wanted, the Nutters in Syria get what they want

      Now I just wonder what WE the people are going to get
      Coz you can bet your sweet life it’ll not be what they told us

    109. Bob Mack says:

      I think you only need to look at the make up of the Labour National Executive Council to see who is plotting against Corbyn. Heavily loaded with last nights yes men and women and several union leaders who would want to enhance Labours chances at the next election.

      Corbyn is akin to Caesar,and his senators are just as untrustworthy as their forebears.His speech was definitely crafted for him.

      Et tu Benny?

    110. Andrew McLean says:

      K1 says:
      3 December, 2015 at 3:46 pm
      I was going to put blog, but the Revs organ felt appropriate so I slipped it in.

      The rev will not mind he is big enough to take it!

    111. Petra says:

      @ Stuart says at 2:18 pm ”the Assad regime has used chemical weapons.”

      That’s the wee flaw in your argument Stuart. Assad didn’t use chemical weapons on his own people … conveniently carried out on the very day that he had allowed an International Body of Chemical Weapons experts to carry out an investigation in his Country (the CW attack actually happened a few miles from their location).

      Go do your homework and find out who exposed Assad / Chemical weapons as a lie. Start off with the Germans.

    112. Andy D says:

      Jesus, I am so angry cant for the life of me why you would bomb a country whose people are leaving in droves already. Why does the MSM not ask why?, what is Assad doing for his people caught up in this,( warmongering bastards the lot of them)”Britain goes to war” …. really? we have not enough ships or manpower to do Sweet FA, as an ex Army man the only solution is to put boots on the ground I say that with a heavy heart but it will be necessary otherwise this WILL last for years. As early as 2010 I served on RN Warships and the people in the know said “we are stretched to the cant do anymore”,Why? well ask the Tories they keep cutting the number of ships available to fight. that’s good…. fills me with confidence that does. The Russians coming into this are the answer for me bomb everybody, they are all terrorists, so what if they support Assad he kept his people in check not now though, Christ we are all doomed. Oh by the way just wait we have kicked the hornets nest again, hell mend us, death will come to our door now, so sad.

    113. TJenny says:

      Andrew McLean says: ‘different points of view about a subject communicate using the Revs organ’ – oooh! But you’re right, as we do use it to f**k the yoonies’ propaganda. 😉

    114. TJenny says:

      Erk – missed out the ‘ in Rev’s – grovelling apols. 🙁

    115. Janet says:

      Old man Tony Benn knew what war could do from first hand personal experience as a war hero! His son knows nothing…and I’ll bet that Labour finds itself with a new leader in the new year.

      SSDD.

    116. dramfineday says:

      And while the battle rages on, a reminder of what an “Alert reader” spotted a while ago. Another facet of the Syria story to be reflected on.

      http://tinyurl.com/ne4ugke

    117. rog_rocks says:

      I wondered if perhaps Hillary Ben (who only last week, I thought was a woman) has been motivated by a promise from an ex-Chancellor?

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3329337/Stop-complaining-Police-save-money-historic-sex-abuse-inquiries-says-ex-Chancellor-Lord-Lawson.html

    118. Vestas says:

      He’s the third generation of MP (and shadow cabinet member) in his family so I’d be very surprised if he believed in anything other than the acquisition of power by any means.

      The ultimate politician is totally facile after all.

      Somewhat frighteningly there’s already a fourth generation of this family – Emily Benn, who if memory serves is so far to the right that she’d do better standing as a Tory.

      Nepotism in UK “left-wing” politics, who’d have imagined it mmm? 😉

    119. Will Podmore says:

      Bob Mack writes of me, “The penny finally dropped. Almost.”
      Why does he not think that a communist hates and despises Westminster as much as any SNP member? Possibly even more so, as we wouldn’t choose to enter it?
      The difference is not so much in our attitudes to the British state as in our attitudes to the British working class, the only force that can overthrow capitalist class power.
      The SNP wants to divide the working class, into 2 nations. Communists want to unite the working class in order to overthrow capitalism.

    120. Petra says:

      @ manandboy says at 3:38 pm ”WHAT CHANGED HILARY BENN’S MIND?”

      Could be anything at all manandboy. A means to oust Corbyn, lent on by his buddies in Friends of Israel (Hugh Barclay 3:48 pm), blackmailed by someone who knows one of his dirty wee secrets, promised a load of (BAE) dough or maybe he suffers from bi-polar condition? If so he was going through the manic stage of that illness last night.

      Only time will tell ….. maybe.

    121. mogabee says:

      Sick and tired being lied to and deceived.

      https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10208409669629500

    122. ClanDonald says:

      Hey Hilary, don’t forget to ask the RAF to bring you back some Arabian perfumes from Syria so you can wash your bloody hands.

    123. Ken500 says:

      What have they got on him? He has committed political suicide. Mr Benn says good bye.

    124. caz-m says:

      Cameron wants British troops on the ground in Syria.

      Him and his wee French buddie will use a terrorist attack in London as the trigger to get the public (English) support that he needs.

    125. David McDowell says:

      It makes you wonder if Scotland will ever escape these people with their corrupt system of patronage, their warmongering, their immunity from the law, and the power to control the masses using propaganda.

      They appear to hold all the cards. How can you win a political game when the odds are so heavily stacked against anyone who challenges it?

    126. ahundredthidiot says:

      Andy D

      It cannot be ‘done’ with boots on the ground.

      To do that you would need half a million troops and a welcoming public, like Germany in closing stages of WW2. Then a clear and immediate plan to implement civil continuity.

      We have neither.

      The Russians have called Americas bluff, now it’s time to back down and accept Assad as Syria’s rightful leader, whip Turkey into line before she goes sideways by giving Erdogan exile in sunny Florida.

      Or. Face war.

      A great philosopher once said ‘hey kid, you think that’s oil?….man, that ain’t oil that’s blood’

    127. Rock says:

      Many Scots voted No because they didn’t like Alex Salmond.

      28% of Scots are in favour of the bombing.

      Around the same percentage will vote Labour no matter vote.

      It is safe to say around 25% of Scots are either the most stupid or the most selfish people on earth.

      Hilary Benn is an utter disgrace.

      His father was a Tory plant all along.

    128. Bob Mack says:

      @Will Podmore,

      One day your fossil will be on display at the “British Museum”
      along with the other dinosaurs. Communism does not last. Ask Russia and China.

      The theory we are all equal is great.The practise much harder.

    129. AndyB says:

      At what point would people here support military action against ISIS?
      If they took Baghdad?
      If they took Damascus?

      This band of murderers, rapists and thugs will only stop when they are defeated, completely, militarily just like their western cousins the National Socialists.

      And if you want a case study in how it is done, look at Algeria in the 1990’s when a Muslim government and Muslim army fought Islamists to the death, and triumphed.

    130. liz says:

      It was obvious that the cheering from the blue Tory benches was planned beforehand.

      There is no doubt that he has been offered a deal and he will be backed by the establishment to take over from Corbyn but this is Corbyn’s own fault.
      He had the backing of the people he should have grabbed it with both hands and got rid of the Blairites from his shadow cabinet.

      The press hate him anyway but at least he would have shown some backbone.

      As far folk getting upset about ‘birling in his grave’, FFS bombs are being dropped on innocents but AS’s remarks are a disgrace – what planet do these people live on?

    131. Kenny says:

      Will the Scottish parliament issue a cross-party condemnation of airstrikes on Syria? I would hope that the Welsh Assembly will also do the same.

      I am clueless how bombing Daesh in Syria will prevent further terrorist attacks in places like Paris. Were the Paris attacks directed and financed from Raddaq? If not, from where? Why has there been no investigation to lay out how the attacks happened from the initial planning? Satellites and the surveillance state, especially in financial matters, mean me know EVERYTHING that goes on in this planet. Was this information published or was I asleep when it did?

      When I heard the applause at the end of a speech which called for an action which means the death of hundreds of innocent people in lands we’ve already herriet for hundreds of years, besides being disgusted that the Houses of Parliament have now become the Houses of Death, I recalled a poem by someone from that same Middle East. Unfortunately, I am forced to recall this poem with every day that passes, every time I look at the news…

      Death
      sang its sad song
      for the hundredth time.
      My heart
      shook
      for the hundredth time.

      http://www.rusartnet.com/persian-culture/literature/poetry/english/death-sang-its-sad-song

      Now, that is far stronger than any mindless nonsense written by Hillary Benn (never could understand the myth surrounding his father, funny kind of socialist who would suppress the McCrone Report, the sort who were also against Indian independence because it benefitted the British Empire).

    132. Rock says:

      Will Podmore,

      “Communists want to unite the working class in order to overthrow capitalism.”

      The only thing communists have ever suceeded in doing is turning the working class into slaves, after murdering millions.

      It is the social democracies of Scandinavia that have done most for the working class.

      The model that an independent Scotland aspires to.

      You are too thick to ever realise that the British state is the last place on earth where the working class could possibly get the equality they deserve.

    133. caz-m says:

      Sky News and the BBC don’t half “sex up” the RAF. Loads of videos of planes talking off and landing, maps of targets on big screens, input from ex-Generals, it’s so exciting.

      I’m still waiting to see the burning oil fields that they blew up last night.

    134. ahundredthidiot says:

      Caz-m

      No, londons been done, my money is on Manchester or wherever the next big emergency services exercise is being held.

      Nobody likes to look stupid you see.

      And of course, all the ‘shooters’ must die – can’t have a court case now, can we.

    135. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m only half way down the thread and had to comment.

      Please stop with all the warm words for Ben snr., who conspired to steal a healthy chunk of Scotland’s wealth (McCrone Report). This was a major factor in keeping Scotland shackled to the Union, IMO, and diminished the potential life experience for all Scots by doing so. The Ben snr. of your memories never existed.

      The pair of them are unprincipled opportunists and that is putting it very mildly.

    136. Border Guards says:

      Two probabilities:

      1 He finally spotted the opportunity to be one up on his auld Da by dumping Corbyn and taking over the wreckage with the support of the media & the Blairite mob.

      2 MI5 have photos of him puting his tadger somewhere he shouldn’t.

      Embdy’s guess.

    137. Graham MacLure says:

      Robert Peffers @3.07pm

      Yes Robert you have put the common usage name on the English rule of the supposed UK.

      I am not a historian but I believe the Normans were descendants of Vikings and that since 1066 England has been ruled by the offspring of William Duke of Normandy and his followers.
      I have also seen William titled, William the Bastard Duke of Normandy seemingly being an illegitimate son of the French king.
      From what we saw recently of the English Establishment the second title may have been true in more ways than one and he has many descendants.

    138. Bob Mack says:

      @Cameron B Brodie,

      Consider it done.

    139. Angra Mainyu says:

      Angra Mainyu
      Speech to the Nation of Scotland
      Dateline: December 3rd, 2015.

      Fellow Scots.

      Many of you will be old enough to remember the children’s cartoon show Mr Benn from the 1970s and would have been stirred to remember it last night when Tony Benn’s son took to the stage in the House of Commons.

      “As if by magic”, what we witnessed last night in the antics of Mr Hillary Benn, was nothing short of a truly remarkable and implausible transformation.

      “Good morning, Sir,” the shopkeeper said, “which costume would you like to try today?”

      Before our disbelieving eyes we witnessed the complete transformation of a previously mild mannered and rather non-descript politician into what can only be described as an angry, seething, and murderous warmonger.

      Questions have rightfully asked here today as to what might explain this transformation.

      In the front of our minds there is the idea that Mr Benn wishes to assume the role of leadership within the Labour Party and, to that end, as we bore witness to ourselves, he exhibited a willingness to stab not only the leader of his party in the back but the very memory of his kind-hearted father in the back too.

      In the back of our minds, we can only guess what elements within the establishment might have on Mr Benn that would induce him to confound the very principles that his party, his father, and he himself not so long ago once stood on.

      Brothers and sisters, I ask you all to consider that in terms of our own narrow struggle for freedom here in Scotland, we must be patient and prepare to make the most of these shambolic developments. It is more than inevitable that this Syrian situation will deteriorate and fall into our hands like a ripe apple in the weeks and months to come.

      If everything in the Middle East is about oil, as I assume it is where Britain is involved, then it is as well that they have Syrian oil to compensate them for the now certain loss of ours.

      Never forget: The Barns O’ Ayr Burn Weel…

    140. Lesley-Anne says:

      I want to say I am surprised but in reality I am not. Funny how everything from the bacon lover and his earse kissing media has been about “we MUST bomb Syria!” and absolutely NOTHING has been said about these stories!

      https://www.rt.com/news/323594-turkey-risks-world-war/

      https://www.rt.com/news/323427-downed-jet-world-reaction/

      https://www.rt.com/news/323899-turkey-officers-treason-arrests/

    141. Lesley-Anne says:

      Funnily enough these stories appear to have not been discussed by the bacon lover and his earse kissing media either!

      https://www.rt.com/news/323895-isis-smuggled-oil-iraq-syria/

      https://www.rt.com/news/323603-isis-oil-smuggling-turkey/

      https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/

      https://www.rt.com/news/320190-isis-oil-saddam-turkey/

      No I am not on a commission from RT. 😀

    142. Graham MacLure says:

      Cameron Brodie @4.27

      Amen tae that.

    143. Big Jock says:

      Yes Tony Benn had form on the Scottish question. He is like Galloway. Full of principles for all the nations in the world. Except for Scotland.

      George if Scotland had voted yes we wouldn’t be bombing Syria. Yet still you want us to stay in the UK. 995 of our Mp’s voted against the war and still you think Scotland gets something out of the union.

      What the ferk is it George!

    144. Valerie says:

      We surely all KNOW by now, that the West want Assad out.

      So why are people repeating debunked shit about Assad and chemical weapons.

      I have posted quite a few links about this, as have others. This forum is about debunking, so if you are not doing the courtesy of reading folks links, and educating yourself, please don’t write parroted propaganda.

      I’m sure Assad is a gangster, but so are a lot in charge of this country.

      I remember posting info on this 2days ago, with the link.

      It pisses me off, because all sorts read the forum.

      Personally, if I don’t agree with a post, I let it go, OR do some research, if I want to challenge.

    145. Effijy says:

      Nothing that I could ever prove, but has anyone else heard about the arms manufacturers holding a “meeting” with some politicians
      who appeared to be against using the bombs that they produce?

      Lord George Robertson has made a Very nice living out of “defense” relationships. It must be tempting to greatly enhance your take home pay and pension with a consultancy job waiting for you down the line.

      Would he want to be party leader when he knows he has no chance in the 2020 election. He would be 72 years old come 2025, which if he could win would seem leader up to the age of 77.

      I’d go with the Westminster God, Money, being behind these incredulous events.

    146. I have been reading that the Labour chief whip abstained on the vote last night.

      If true what does that say about the Labour party?

      Finished?

    147. caz-m says:

      Lesley-Anne

      You are right to highlight the roll Turkey is playing in Syria. They are buying cheap oil from ISIS. And to keep them onside, the “West” is turning a blind eye to it.

      That is why I want to see video footage of burning oil fields from last nights RAF bombings. We need proof that they are actually taking out these oil fields.

    148. annie says:

      Is it possible Britain were so desperate to get involved so they can legitimately claim their share of the spoils once the dust settles. Lots of oil out there and they’ll want a return on the cost of all those missiles.

    149. mike cassidy says:

      Slightly OT – but as “Britain Goes To War” seems to have had its day –

      This is worth reading by virtue of the website in question gaining indirectly that rarity – a response from a BBC journalist ‘defending’ their frontline reporting.

    150. Lesley-Anne says:

      One thing I thought that was rather interesting about last night’s vote was the way the whole media shit storm kept going on and on about Jeremy Corbyn giving the Labour M.P.’s a free vote. Funnily enough the same brainless bampots failed to go on and on about how the bacon lover whipped his Tory M.P.’s to vote for bombing of Syria. Only 7 voted against and a further 7 abstained I believe.

      Surely if the bacon lover was truly confident of having put the case for bombing he should have given his M.P.’s a free vote!

      I can only assume that the bacon lover was far too concerned that too many of his M.P.’s might do the right thing instead of voting for bombing!

    151. Hamish McTavish says:

      This is quite a long piece so, I’ll split it into two related posts.

      It’s another epistle from Howard Wheeldon who is a commentator/analyst on military (mainly airpower) matters.

      Part 1:

      Vote on Syria and Mission Sustainability

      As the 174 majority vote in the House of Commons demonstrated last night, the Government not only has the absolute authority to proceed to act in support of our allies and in undertaking precision air attacks over Syria, as well as continuing those over Iraq, the vote also enhanced the position of Prime Minister, David Cameron. The point here is that even if not all aspects of the mission go right, Mr Cameron has received a mandate from the House.

      Two Royal Air Force Tornado GR4 pairs have already delivered the first round of precision bombing on east Syrian Omar oil fields in an attempt to cut off a vital income stream for ISIL. I, along with others including a former Chief of the Air Staff, ACM Sir Michael Grayson, and the former Foreign Secretary, Lord Hague have been busy in BBC radio studios this morning providing informed comment and views. All three of us agree that extending our air strike engagement into Syria in support our allies, particularly France and the US, is absolutely right and we agree as well that there is a strong case to extend the level of UK ‘Special Forces’ involvement on the ground. But I do not agree with those such as the former Head of the Army, Lord Dannatt, who believe that we should deploy a larger force of ‘boots on the ground’.

      Not surprisingly, given their hardly neutral stance on matters, the Secretary of State for Defence, Michael Fallon was given a particularly hard time by John Humphrys on the Today Programme this morning. Mr Fallon defended the position of the UK Government extremely well, saying that the strikes that took place last night using the four Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado aircraft and that delivered a total of 12 Paveway IV guided bombs, “will have dealt a real blow at the oil and revenue on which Daesh (IS, ISIL) terrorists depend.” He reminded that the military action against Daesh can be expected to continue for years rather than months and that ending this war will not be quick.

      We must also recognise that even though our spirit and our determination is there, we have allowed our armed forces to be considerably weakened. Yes, SDSR 2015 went some way to begin the process of reversing the decline but, in terms of capability, there will be little of any change seen over the next couple of years. We do have sufficient Tornado GR4 capability and, slowly but surely, Typhoon capability in the form of weapons delivery systems and radar is being enhanced so that, hopefully, by 2019 the capability will match or even outpace that of the brilliant Tornado GR4.

      The worry though is sustainability. I am reminded, as I have been many times in the past, of the warning about sustainability given by ACM Sir Simon Bryant to a small group of MPs in a briefing paper in 2012 in respect of our then still ongoing involvement in the Libya campaign, Op Ellamy. “The ability” he said “of the Royal Air Force to respond to future emergencies was likely to be eroded if the mission in Libya extended beyond the summer. His view was backed up by the then First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, who warned the government that it would face challenging decisions if the Libya mission lasted more than [another] six months.

      Bryant was not just talking about equipment sustainment, he was also talking about military personnel and all that they do. He may also have been referring to our inventory and holdings of complex weapons which were known to be stretched. Bryant’s warnings were shot down by Prime Minister in a sentence that David Cameron will have come to regret when he replied with the now immortal words:

      “There are moments when I wake up, read the newspapers and think: ‘Well look, you do the fighting and I’ll do the talking’. Time is on our side and we will keep going with this; and the pressure is turning up all the time.”

      A coupleof months after making the speech the position held by ACM Sir Simon Bryant, CinC Air, was scrapped and he retired from the Royal Air Force. More’s the pity for comments such as those made by Bryant are needed to ensure that Government sees sense.

    152. Fred says:

      Tony Benn’s to blame for calling this tosser Hillary in the first place.

    153. bugsbunny says:

      Almanniesbunnet,

      What about Donald Trump USA in power at the same time as David Tramp in the UK?

      The American name for a Tramp is BUM, and isn’t David Cameron the biggest ARSEHOLE in Westminster. And what comes out of a bum? Total shite.

      David Camerbum, the Prime Minister with the face like a skelped erse.

      Maybe Hillary Benn should be renamed Hilarity Benn? Now there’s a new character for the comic VIZ. Hilarity Benn, the MP with mair faces than the toon clock. I prefer Mr Benn from 52 Festive Road, (remember him), with his bowler hat and rolled up umbrella. lol. Come to think of it, all that was missing was an orange sash. And just like an Orangeman, he lived in a world of his own.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiLuHily9_M

      Stephen.

    154. Thepnr says:

      Part of Hilary Benn interview on Sky also from 15th November.

      DM: But it seems arbitrary, given that our allies are attacking ISIL in Syria, that we’re not joining them does it not? Is it still the position of the Labour party that it would not support a debate, a discussion within the House of Commons that calls for such an extension to take place, is it still the position of the Labour party that you don’t think it would be productive?

      HILARY BENN: We’ve said to the government consistently throughout, if you have a proposal then bring it to the House of Commons then we will consider it, we will judge it against a number of criteria but as the Conservative chaired Foreign Affairs Select Committee reported recently, you need to have a comprehensive plan. There has to be a comprehensive plan if you are really going to end the threat from ISIL Daesh and that needs to come forward. If the government wants to bring that forward then we would look it but you are not going to defeat ISIL Daesh in Syria just by dropping bombs.

      Full transcript of interview here https://archive.is/WWOUL

    155. Cuilean says:

      The Battle of Britain constricted the Luftwaffe to a defence force. Despite this, we still needed D day & the Russians to defeat fascism in Europe in 1945.

      Benn’s so-called fascists – Da-esh – will only be removed ‘house by house’, cellar by cellar, just as was required in 1945.

      This has to be done by islamic troops, otherwise it will be a recruiting sergeant for Da- esh all over the world. The sphere of bloody conflict will simply shift from Syria to some other godforsaken land.

      If Britain had shown real strength, it would have declined to bomb Syria. It could then have acted as a neutral broker in Syrian civil war peace or cease fire talks, so that all parties could turn their attention to Da-esh, for now.

      Then the remaining factions could have sorted out their other issues, one by one, including the creation of a Kurdish state.

      Over simple, I know, but the Kurds are the only faction actually taking on Da-esh, on the ground and winning with very little weapon support from NATO (as it does not wish to upset Turkey).

      Da-esh are terrified of the many thousands of Kurdish women soldiers fighting them. Da-esh fears more than anything being killed by a woman, as according to their warped beliefs, they will never gain paradise if killed by a Kurdish woman. The torture inflicted by Da-esh on Kurdish women soldiers is unimaginable, which is why Kurdish women soldiers kill themselves or have their own male soldiers shoot them, if there is no escape, rather than allow themselves to fall into Da-esh hands. Yet the West promises the Kurds NOTHING.

    156. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Oh look, Stuarts back again on a new thread with the same comment from the old thread. Bleating on about Assads Chem Weapons, except they weren’t.

      “Evidence leads directly to the White House, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Martin Dempsey, CIA Director John Brennan, Saudi Intelligence Chief Prince Bandar, and Saudi Arabia´s Interior Ministry.”

      http://nsnbc.me/2013/10/07/top-us-and-saudi-officials-responsible-for-chemical-weapons-in-syria/

    157. caz-m says:

      Here’s another one for you Lesley-Anne.

      How much is this bombing campaign going to cost? Philip Hammond was asked last night how long this is going to go on for and he said,

      “For as long as it takes for us to wipe out ISIS”

      So we are going to keep bombing and money doesn’t seem to enter the equation.

    158. Hamish McTavish says:

      This second part of Howard Wheeldon’s post is mainly about the GR4 and Eurofighter capabilities

      Part 2:

      While writing let me remind of the capability that the Royal Air Force Tornado GR4, Typhoon and Reaper have. In addition, the UK is maintaining Sentry E-3D AWACS and Sentinel from RAF Akrotiri in support of the Iraq and now Syria campaign (possibly Air Seeker as well). The eight 9 Squadron Tornado GR4 aircraft are to be enhanced by an additional two GR4s and six Typhoons. For the GR4s the weapon of choice will be the MBDA-built Brimstone air-to-ground attack missile which has a range of ten miles and speed of 700mph and able to hit small moving targets with absolute precision, together with the Raytheon UK-built Paveway IV smart bomb. In addition, the unmanned Reaper capability has the ability to fire the Hellfire air-to-ground missile.

      Tornado GR4 specification and armament capability is given on the MoD website as:
      Engines: Two RR RB199 Mk103 turbofans, Thrust: 16,000lbf each, Max speed: 1.3Mach, Length: 16.72m, Max altitude: 50,000ft, Span: 8.6m, Aircrew: 2, Armament: DMS and Legacy Brimstone, Enhanced Paveway II, Storm Shadow, Paveway II, Paveway III, Paveway IV, Mauser 27mm Cannon, ASRAAM

      Powered by two Rolls-Royce RB199 Mk103 turbofan engines, the GR4 is capable of low-level supersonic flight and can sustain a high subsonic cruise speed. The aircraft can fly automatically at low level using Terrain Following Radar (TFR) when poor weather prevents visual flight. The aircraft is also equipped with Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) and is Night Vision Goggle (NVG) compatible. This gives it a relatively unique all-weather night capability as well as making it an impressive platform for mounting passive night electro-optical operations.

      For navigation purposes, the Tornado is equipped with an integrated Global Positioning Inertial Navigation System (GPINS). The GR4 has a Ground Mapping Radar (GMR) to identify fix-points and update navigation systems as well as providing an air-to-air search facility. The GR4 is also equipped with a Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) that can be used to locate targets designated on the ground or can provide accurate range information to ground targets.

      The GR4 typically carries up to a maximum of five Paveway IV smart weapons or two Stormshadow cruise missiles but can be configured with various weapons, targeting pods and reconnaissance pods simultaneously, including the Dual Mode Seeker (DMS) Brimstone, ALARM Mk2 missile, Litening III and the Reconnaissance Airborne Pod Tornado (RAPTOR).

      The RAPTOR pod is one of the most advanced reconnaissance sensors in the world and greatly increases the effectiveness of the aircraft in the reconnaissance role. Its introduction into service gave the GR4 the ability to transmit real-time, Long Range Oblique Photography (LOROP) to commanders or to view this in-cockpit during a mission. The stand-off range of the sensors also allows the aircraft to remain outside heavily defended areas, thus minimising the aircraft’s exposure to enemy air-defence systems. Additional capability in the Non-Traditional Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR) role is provided by the Litening III RD and the use of the ROVER data link for providing tactical operators with real time Full Motion Video (FMV) in the battle space.

      All GR4 aircraft are capable of carrying the Air Launched Anti-Radiation Missile (ALARM), which homes on to the emitted radiation of enemy radar systems and can be used in the Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD) role. The GR4 is capable of carrying up to nine ALARM or a mixed configuration of ALARM and bombs. The self-protection capability of the GR4 has recently been upgraded by the integration of the state of the art ASRAAM short range air-to-air missile. Infra-Red (IR) and Radio Frequency (RF) countermeasures are provided by a BOZ-107 Pod on the right wing to dispense chaff and flares and a Sky Shadow-2 electronic countermeasures pod on the left wing. The aircraft is also equipped with an integral 27mm Mauser cannon capable of firing 1,700 rounds per minute.

      The Tornado GR4 is now equipped with the Storm Shadow missile and two variants of the Brimstone missile, including the most advanced DMS variant. The Storm Shadow allows the Tornado to make precision strikes in poor weather with a greatly increased stand-off range from the target area. While legacy Brimstone provides the Tornado with an effective anti-armour weapon coupled with an enhanced stand-off range. The DMS variant enables unrivalled flexibility coupled with precision which is second to none.

      Typhoon Capability specification and armaments as per MoD Website
      Specification Engines: Two Eurojet EJ200 turbofans, Thrust: 20,000lbf each, Max speed: 1.8Mach, Length: 15.96m, Max altitude: 55,000ft, Span: 11.09m, Aircrew: 1, Armament: Paveway IV, AMRAAM, ASRAAM, Mauser 27mm Cannon, Enhanced Paveway II

      By 2018/19 when the current upgrade work is complete, Typhoon Weapons integration will include Meteor air-to-air missile, Paveway IV, Storm Shadow, Brimstone and Small Diameter Bomb. Additionally, the aircraft is planned to be fitted with upgraded radar to that of an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) capability.

    159. Lesley-Anne says:

      Thanks Caz.

      I know lots of folk don’t trust RT or Putin but there again RT does get to the stories the likes of BBC are too feart to report on.

      Funnily enough I read over on twitter earlier today a tweet from someone who said that the R.A.F. had bombed a water supply last night and not an oil refinery supply depot. It will interesting if:

      a) this does turn out to be true.

      b) BBC/SKY/STV/media actually report this if it is indeed true.

      I also read someone saying that the BBC, I think, were claiming that the R.A.F. were able to confirm that there were no civilians in the target are before dropping their bombs. 🙂

      I have to admit that I am curious to know if they can do that then why were they not in Syria from the beginning?

    160. Capella says:

      @ mogabee 4:07 pm
      Sick and tired being lied to and deceived.

      https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10208409669629500

      Good link. Thanks for posting. Confirms what most of us suspect about who created Daesh.

    161. Another Union Dividend says:

      Unionists now attacking Salmond for saying that Viscount Stansgate would be birlin in his grave at his son’s speech.

      Stan Collymore has a better grasp of the Middle East situation than Hilary Benn.

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock
      Rock, Will isn’t thick, he’s deluded. 😉

      Will
      You were doing so well with your last couple of posts. Here to pick up the disgruntled socialist? I suppose it’s classier than hanging about in public conveniences. 😉

      —————————————————–

      The Warmoster party wants regime change in Syria and have been pretty open about this. They now have a ‘legitimate’ target (Daesh), who has been armed and trained by a coalition of NATO members and Gulf monarchies. The bombing will be ‘precision’ targeted but will inevitably denigrate the social infrastructure. Once this reaches a certain level of destruction, regime change become inevitable due to internal strains. Simples.

      I posted an article here which I didn’t bookmark, that reported a study of the Iraq invasion. The study highlighted a similar strategy and explained that such willful destruction of a civilian population’s means of survival, is deemed a WAR CRIME. Fancy that.

    163. David McDowell says:

      Any word from the “bams” now they all know which way the wind is blowing?

    164. Lesley-Anne says:

      caz-m says:
      3 December, 2015 at 5:03 pm

      Here’s another one for you Lesley-Anne.

      How much is this bombing campaign going to cost? Philip Hammond was asked last night how long this is going to go on for and he said,

      “For as long as it takes for us to wipe out ISIS”

      So we are going to keep bombing and money doesn’t seem to enter the equation.

      I don’t have an answer directly for you on this Caz but, again from twitter, I did read someone quote the figure of £500,000. Now I have no way of proving or disproving that figure but it would not surprise me by the time you take into account aircraft running costs, costs of munitions etc.

      As far as that dunderheid Hammond is concerned I would just say think of Afghanistan and double it. Now that Cameron has dragged us into Syria we are looking at decades fighting Daesh. This is not a war where the armies stand out in open ground and face off to each other. This war WILL require “boots on the ground” to clear out Daesh.

      Despite the bacon lovers claims I have serious doubts about the 75,000 local boots on the ground. For starters how many groups will agree to fight together and how many will end up fighting each other as much as they fight Daesh?

      There is only one group that I think are reliable enough for full support and that is the Kurds but of course NATO and the bacon lover don’t want to supply them with heavy arms because no one is prepared to upset Turkey.

    165. Valerie says:

      BBC at lunchtime.

      Some guy orgasmic with graphs of jets and bombs.

      The accuracy is ‘frankly astonishing’, because it’s only 6% casualties.

      See what they did there? Dehumanizing arsewipes.

    166. `Turkey buying cheap oil from Daesh`

      Oil is trading at less than 40 bucks a barrel,why would Turkey need to buy oil from terrorists and lose face with the `civilised` world?

      Maybe oil at 120 > 180 bucks a barrel you would maybe think it was worth it but at 40 odd legit on the open market,can`t see it being worth the hassle.

    167. caz-m says:

      L.A.

      Why haven’t the Americans and the French been bombing these oil fields in Syria. They say that ISIS makes Millions of dollars every week selling the oil from these fields, so why are they still producing oil.

      Something isn’t right here.

    168. Another Union Dividend says:

      Stan Collymore’s torn up Labour membership card here

      https://archive.is/tNtZG

    169. Andrew Mclean says:

      In Search of Schrodinger’s Cat!

      Schrödinger if you read this I need a bit of help, its a bit embarrassing but I fell asleep reading George Orwell’s 1984, and would you believe it some of the book and my conciseness has imprinted into this universe. I discovered statistically unlikely circular patterns in the cosmic microwave background in this universe that has occurred from being bumped by the universe I live in.

      I realized it was statistically impossible reasoning when hearing of the explanation of laughing and cheering during a vote on war from the Ministry of Truth was that it was sombre and reflective cheering and shouting, clearly doublethink! Then I heard a labour minister say the Tunisian terrorist was actually Syrian as were the French and Belgium terrorists, and that Syria and Iraq are the same. His argument lauded as shattering and marvellous was we need war for peace, slavery to be free, and our strength is our ignorance!

      So we are sending only jets to a war, making us airstrip one, we have a ministry of peace who are looking for thought criminals on the internet. We have the outer party the Labour Party that seeks power entirely for its own sake. We have perpetual war among Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia. Or the war on terror, as they call it, a war with no end.

      Schrödinger I need the algorithm to search for inhomogeneities in the inner-bubble cosmology, to get the hell out of here, this timeline is unstable, we could disappear into a false vacuum state, a catastrophic bubble at a moment’s notice.

    170. Glamaig says:

      caz-m @4.50

      Another problem with the Turks in all of this is their pathological hatred of the Kurds and their desperation to prevent an independent Kurdistan from taking shape. If the Turks and the Kurds were on good terms, the situation would not be so stupidly complex.

      Turkey is really the rump of the Ottoman empire and Kurds, along with some other ethnic groups in the east of the country, are trapped in the remains of this empire. Former imperial powers get increasingly desperate to hold onto the last vestiges of their power and greatness.

      Does that sound familiar?

    171. rongorongo says:

      That reminds me of the old cartoon- Mr Benn-,where he goes into the changing room,puts on new sets of clothes and becomes a new character each time.
      Actually the real Mr Ben is not too happy.

    172. nodrog says:

      mogabee says:
      3 December, 2015 at 4:07 pm
      Sick and tired being lied to and deceived.

      Do you think Hillary Benn has seen this?

    173. Lesley-Anne says:

      I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here Scott. It is not about Turkey needing to buy oil from Daesh it is about Daesh needing to sell oil to fund their “war.”

      The fact that oil is trading at or below $40 a barrel is of no consequence to them they are all about the money and the arms that they can buy.

      Typically an oil tanker will carry between 4,500 and 9,500 imperial gallons. Recently it was reported that the U.S. bombed around 115 oil tankers in Syria.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_truck

      If you work off that one attack then we get:

      115 oil tankers
      9,000 gallons per tanker
      1.035 Million gallons of oil ready to transport
      $41.4 Million in revenue

      Daesh could have bought a lot of arms for $41.4 Million.

    174. CameronB Brodie says:

      Who owns these oil fields? Apparently only the German power plants bombed during WW2, were those not owned by American corporations and their subsidiaries. As a result, Germany was able to continue war.

      Then again, I might believe their intention is to avoid denigration of Syria’s infrastructure. Well…I might.

    175. Glamaig says:

      @Valerie 5:22

      Its pathetic isnt it. I think they really want to get out their Airfix models and give us demonstrations ‘neoww neoww tacka tacka tacka boom’ like schoolboys.

    176. Lesley-Anne says:

      caz-m says:
      3 December, 2015 at 5:24 pm

      L.A.

      Why haven’t the Americans and the French been bombing these oil fields in Syria. They say that ISIS makes Millions of dollars every week selling the oil from these fields, so why are they still producing oil.

      Something isn’t right here.

      You are right Caz.

      I did read recently that the U.S. did hit an oil refinery with about 115 oil tankers waiting to go on the road but that was the first time I had heard anything about oil refineries being hit.

      I saw this last night on *ahem* RT 😉 it goes some way to explaining how the Daesh oil gets into the open market I think.

      https://www.rt.com/news/324303-isis-oil-routes-turkey/

    177. Joanie says:

      This has nothing to do with war against ISIS. An American dude interviewed on Channel 4 news last night summed it up very succinctly – America doesn’t need the UK’s help militarily, this is about the relationship between the UK and the US.

      Ie, its about proving to the Americans that Britain is still their faithful poodle.

    178. David McDowell says:

      Lib Dem MP Alistair Carmichael MP said the decision to back air strikes “has been the most difficult one that I have ever known, apart from that one about whether or not to have that third cream puff at the House of Commons canteen yesterday.”

    179. Valerie says:

      @Alan Mackintosh

      Thanks for that link, after my rant. I too noticed Stuart was cutting and pasting tired shit, but others keep repeating the chem weapons propaganda.

      The link I posted also mentioned CIA using ‘contractors’ to teach locals how to use chemical weapons.

    180. Lesley-Anne says:

      Just for a wee bit of light relief folks. 🙂

      https://archive.is/TEe36

    181. Black Joan says:

      Entire 15 minutes of Benn oratory spewing out of State Broadcaster Radio 4 PM programme as build up to 6pm news.

      Preceded by pathetic statement that Alex Salmond was on earlier.

    182. Bob Mack says:

      Cracker of a cartoon on the Rev’s twitter feed.Sorry ,cant cut and paste on this device.

      Basically a fully loaded Tornado with the price painted on each bomb,and the pilot is saying

      “If we cant destroy a school or hospital here in Iraq ,and least we will destroy one back home”

      Brilliantly incisive.———-and true.

    183. John says:

      Vanity bombing! We all should see it for what it is.

    184. Andy.D says:

      Andy.D reply

      ahundredthidiot @ 16.13pm
      Yeah mate liked what you said and agree with you on all points, but unfortunately we will suffer for our actions and yes we will need masses of troops, a UN army preferred, toothless and without a moral cause in a war we don’t want, hell there are no easy answers. The Russians to some extent have awakened the great American eagle and said what are you going to do…. lets see.

    185. galamcennalath says:

      Glamaig says:

      “If the Turks and the Kurds were on good terms, the situation would not be so stupidly complex.

      Turkey is really the rump of the Ottoman empire and Kurds, along with some other ethnic groups in the east of the country, are trapped in the remains of this empire. ”

      Could this be the biggest cock up of the post WW1 imperial carve up?

      To say the situation is complex around Syria is an understatement, but perhaps one obvious move toward peace would be the creation of a United Kurdanistan. Each of the four regional powers could show good faith and agree to cede their part of Kurdish territory?

      There are 30 million Kurds spread across four countries , 15m in Turkey. If there was an independent Kurdanistan, that would be one aspect of the conflict solved.

    186. Skooshcase says:

      Don’t forget, to the loons of Daesh and their sympathisers, the UK to them is one entity – not England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – but one whole ‘country’ that is now, officially, their enemy in an official war.

      Scotland, via the SNP, did not vote for this war, indeed, every SNP MP voted against. But no matter, for Scotland, as a result of last year’s independence vote, is still a continuing member of the UK.

      So, Scotland and its people are now legitimate targets for the death-cult maniacs. Machine-gunning and blowing-up innocent Scots in high numbers is now a horrific possibility.

      But… think of how excited the commanders of Daesh must be at the possibility of overruning Faslane with assault weapons and suicide bombers. And then the ultimate prize, detonation of a nuclear weapon…

      These nutters adore death and practically long for it. How better to achieve that aim than by nuclear oblivion, while taking the ‘infidel’ populations of Glasgow and district and a large swath of the west of Scotland with them…

      Scaremongering nonsense? Maybe. Not possible? Maybe not. Let’s hope not, eh. But can you be sure – 100% sure?

    187. K1 says:

      Just to keep the momentum going, in case any new readers haven’t see it to sign it.

      Standing at just over 82,000 signatures as I post:

      http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria

    188. Skooshcase says:

      Happy Xmas (War is Over) – John Lennon & Yoko Ono, 1972.

      Happy Xmas (War has Started) – David Cameron & Hilary Benn, 2015. (allegedly)

      Oh, and that Stuart dude further up this thread is a fucking trolling/flaming idiot.

    189. Ken500 says:

      Tony Benn helped bury the MCCroe Report. Supported the 40% Devolution rule, supported the myth that Scotland was subsidise (a pack of lies) and did everything he could to stop Devolution. He was no supporter of self determination for Scotland. Supported self determination for everyone else. Just like Galloway.

      The English working class vote Tory. They voted for Thatcher and voted for Cameron Unionst politicians sought support in England, by running down Scotland. Scotland out voted 10 to 1, expendable because their vote in Westminster doesn’t count. It’s a form of bullying.

    190. john king says:

      So,since 2013 US planes have been bombing Daesh in Syria, but had to wait until last night for UK aircraft to show them how its done by bombing the main source of ISIL’s income by destroying a refinery, what are we like? we’re pure dead brilliant soinweare,
      Or do they think we’re just THAT stupid?

    191. Ken500 says:

      @ McCrone Report.

    192. galamcennalath says:

      @k1

      YES. 100000 in 24hours sends another message to WM.

      TELL EVERYONE,

    193. @Lesley-Anne

      If Turkey do not need to buy oil from Daesh, why are they? it is so cheep on legit market.

      Their is also the gas pipeline that was supposed to link up the largest gas field in the world under Qatar and Iran to Europe but has to go through Syria,

      this pipeline if completed would be a blow to Russia`s near monopoly supplying Europe`s gas,

      it would also be another nail in the coffin on America`s gas fracking industry by lowering the price of gas below sustainability levels.

      So both Russia and America are in no rush to return Syria to any form of peace.

      And the UK just want to sell arms to any and everybody.

    194. caz-m says:

      Evening Standard:

      “Ken Livingstone fuels Labour de-selection row by challenging MPs who backed air strikes.”

      http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ken-livingstone-fuels-labour-deselection-row-by-challenging-mps-who-backed-air-strikes-a3129256.html

    195. Glamaig says:

      galamcennelath

      along with an independent Kurdistan I cant see any solution to Syria other than partition into a Alawite/Druze/Christian area and a Sunni area including the mainly Sunni E of Syria and W of Iraq, pretty much the area currently controlled by Daesh.

      But here we go drawing Middle East borders from our armchairs again. That was done in 1918 and it didnt work out too well. What were those witless toffs thinking of?

      It goes even further back than that, it was diplomatic ineptness by more Eton toffs in 1914 that was a major factor in Turkey joining Germany in the Great War, instead of staying neutral or even joining the Allies, resulting in the forced dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire in 1918 by a bunch of arseholes.

      Those posh boys really shouldn’t be trusted with running a real grown-up country. It beggars belief that 55% of Scots voted to entrust them with our future.

    196. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @caz-m,

      I think you could be waiting a while for smoke from the Omar oilfields due to the RAF strikes.

      Apparently the US obliterated them weeks ago…

      https://archive.is/fiACE

      I wonder why the RAF had to go and blow them up again?

      Smoke and mirrors from the Express.

    197. Ghillie says:

      He sold hs soul.

    198. Petra says:

      It’s all about OIL and GAS.

      The Truth About Pipeline Politics in the Syrian Proxy War ………. Assad is the Gatekeeper

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMCs2XlDRE

    199. caz-m says:

      John King 6.38pm

      And am still waitin on BBC Scotland showing me the video of the bombed oil fields John.

    200. ahundredthidiot says:

      Here’ a solution

      Russia joins EU, NATO is disbanded, let the UN sort out Israel/Palestine with a binding agreement to recognise borders, let Assad run his own country, respect China’s claims to islands in south China sea and America get’s told to fucking do one until it sorts Washington out by coup d’etat.

      Crazy, I know.

    201. Petra says:

      It’s all about Oil and Gas ………..

      ‘US GEOPOLITICAL TERRORISM PLATFORM: In late 2010 huge natural gas deposits off Syria’s Mediterranean shores were discovered. The initial results revealed that the “entire” eastern Mediterranean is swimming in huge untapped oil and gas reserves.’

      ‘Why are US Israeli mercenaries in Syria? Same reason why the US illegally attacked Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya and Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian civilian population – oil and gas. The U.S. Geological Survey reported that the Levant Basin, which covers Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Cyprus and Palestine, contains around 122 trillion cubic feet of gas and at least 1.7 billion barrels of oil ………………

      The Israeli government plans to build a floating liquefied natural gas terminal with a sea-based defense radar system off its Mediterranean coast while forming a naval force to protect what it claims is its rich offshore gas fields. However, Syria, Lebanon, Cyprus and Palestine all have Levant Basin oil and gas rights …………………

      Israel sent its Mossad and their foreign mercenaries into Syria to help the US and its mercenaries start a bloody uprising to take from Syria its oil and gas rights in the Levant Basin. Israel attacked Palestine and is grabbing land from them to deny them their oil and gas rights in the Levant Basin. The people of Palestine are being slaughtered to extinction (genocide) because of the oil and gas in the Xe Services LL. Levant Basin. ……………..

      Xe (US Xe Services LL) mercenaries are blocking the Red Cross and Red Crescent ambulances from entering the battle stricken towns for fear that they will leak to the outside World what is really going on ……………………………

      The US has brought in the butcher of Baghdad, Kofi Annan, to oversee the overthrow. Kofi Annan oversaw the “Oil for Food” genocide scheme in Iraq wherein 3 million Iraqi children were murdered by Annan when he denied them any essential humanitarian aid, including medicine and food.’

      And is this why the World Bank and the IMF suggested Greece hand over some of it’s islands to pay off their debts?

      ‘Tulane University oil expert David Hynes told an audience in Athens recently that Greece could have solved its entire public debt crisis through development of its new-found gas and oil. He conservatively estimates that exploitation of the reserves already discovered could bring the country more than €302 billion over 25 years. The Greek government instead has just been forced to agree to huge government layoffs, wage cuts and pension cuts to get access to a second EU and IMF interest bearing enslavement loan.’

      http://counterpsyops.com/2012/12/02/oil-and-gas-find-offshore-syria-motive-for-us-israeli-mercenary-uprising-and-bloodshed-in-syria/

    202. caz-m says:

      Hoss

      Are you tellin me that the RAF never blew up ANY oil fields last night?

      I’ve watched BBC News all day hoping to see the damage our boys in Syria done last night. Damn!

      Ah well, there’s always tonight’s bombing to look forward to.

    203. Neil Baillie says:

      Hilary Benn and those Labour MPs who voted for bombing appear not to have learned the first lesson of IndyRef; that those of us who despise the Tories reserve our special contempt for those who should know better but line up alongside them to do their dirty work.

    204. michael diamond says:

      Wouldnt put it past ungodly forces in london to orchestrate a “terrorist” attack in scotland, just to hammer home the point, that we should stick together, just to spite the “terrorists” you know.

    205. Petra says:

      ‘The-syrian-crisis-syrian-opposition-armed-to-thwart-construction-of-iran-iraq-syria-gas-pipeline.’

      ‘It is not difficult to notice that the rebellion in Syria began to grow two years ago, almost at the same time as the signing of a memorandum in Bushehr on June 25, 2011 regarding the construction of a new Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline…

      It is to stretch 1500 km from Asaluyeh on the largest gas field in the world, North Dome/South Pars (shared between Qatar and Iran) to Damascus. The length of pipeline on the territory of Iran will be 225 km, in Iraq 500 km, and in Syria 500-700 km.

      Later it may be extended along the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea to Greece. The possibility of supplying liquefied gas to Europe via Syria’s Mediterranean ports is also under consideration. Investments in this project equal 10 billion dollars.’

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-geopolitics-of-gas-and-the-syrian-crisis-syrian-opposition-armed-to-thwart-construction-of-iran-iraq-syria-gas-pipeline/5337452

      ‘WHAT WAS SYRIA’S OIL PRODUCTION BEFORE THE CRISIS AND WAS THE GOVERNMENT ABLE TO EXPORT OIL AFTER THE CRISIS BEGAN?

      The U.S. and European Union banned Syrian oil exports in 2011, depriving Syria of its main European customers. After that, exports came practically to a halt and the constantly dropping production was diverted to domestic needs.

      Before the uprising against Syrian President Bashar Assad’s government began in March 2011, the oil sector was a pillar of Syria’s economy, with the country producing about 380,000 barrels a day and exports — mostly to Europe — bringing in more than $3 billion in 2010. Oil revenues provided around a quarter of the funds for the government budget.’

      http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/25/details-oil-fields-in-syria-oil-locations-in-iraq-under-control-islamic-state/

    206. Still Positive. says:

      Skooshcase @ 6.24,

      That thought had crossed my mind too but that’s maybe because I live roughly half way between Faslane and Glasgow.

      Just pray it doesn’t happen.

    207. cearc says:

      galamcennalath

      ‘Could this be the biggest cock up of the post WW1 imperial carve up?’

      No. It was deliberate.

      The Ottoman Empire was that, an empire, consisting of many countries. With the silk road running through it there was a diversity of people across all of them. Nevertheless people knew which countries were which,

      It was quite deliberate to ignore the old existing national boundaries and create ‘new’ countries on the divide and rule basis.

    208. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @caz-m,

      err let’s check with Express again…

      https://archive.is/tEi6l

      yes – RAF help blow up Omar Oilfields and have wiped out two-thirds of ISIS oil overnight!!!

      Tally-ho – the plucky Brits show them how to do it properly.

      It must be these Smart Brimstone missiles – yah yah yah!

      ( err they used Paveways – aren’t they American ?)

    209. Robert Peffers says:

      What is so breath-taking about this whole affair is the brass necked hypocrisy of the Establishment hacks who have been cynically abusing the democratic, legally registered political party that is the SNP and the perfectly democratic and non-violent Scottish independence movement throughout the years.

      They have used terms like insurgents, terrorists, fascists and have compared our democratically elected leadership to every known evil terrorist, dictator and perpetrator of genocide who has ever made a name for themselves in the World’s history books.

      Yet here they are bleating like lost motherless lambs, to anyone who is stupid enough to listen, because they have been abused after having freely chosen to vote for killing other human beings. It was on a free, un-whipped vote.

      It is thus, without any doubt, their own personal choice to vote to bomb other human beings even although there are several other nations already blowing hell out of the Middle East already.

      They are joined in their idiocy by the media who are determined to make as much of a song and dance about the claimed, and deserved, abuse as they can manufacture. This especially from the despicable state propaganda machine that is the BBC.

      Quite frankly I find it the most laughable proof yet that they have totally lost the place and are both on the point of collapse.

    210. Thepnr says:

      Hilary Benn – Hypocrite, more faces than a Decahedron

      November 15th 2015

      The position in Syria is different because there is this terrible civil war going on and I think that the thing that we need to do as quickly as we can is to bring that civil war to an end. I am encouraged by the negotiations that have been taking place in Vienna this weekend because there are the outlines of a potential peace process emerging and if that happens then all of the parties can turn their attention on ISIL Daesh.

      …but you are not going to defeat ISIL Daesh in Syria just by dropping bombs.

      https://archive.is/WWOUL

      November 27th 2015

      The divisions erupted into the open within hours of David Cameron asking Parliament to support air strikes against Islamic State in Syria. Today the Prime Minister, speaking in Malta, called on Labour MPs to “do the right thing”.

      Shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn, who praised Mr Cameron’s case as “compelling”, made clear he would not be quitting but would stay in post to fight his corner.

      http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/corbyn-urged-to-quit-as-labour-rift-widens-over-vote-on-syria-a3124736.html

      And Mr Benn wins the Gold Medal for hypocrisy with that singularly magnificent backflip.

    211. cearc says:

      caz-m,

      Why would the BAE Broadcasting Corp want to show you how effective Paveway missiles are?

      They don’t make them and so are unlikely to feature them on their multi-channel, multi-media advertising organisation unlike the all singing, dancing (at the shareholders meeting, sooper-dooper, Brimstone.

    212. David Agnew says:

      The UK air campaign will fail because it has already failed before it got started. there plan is a nickle and dime affair. The least amount to avoid too much concern at home, but just enough to not look like you’re taking the piss.

      A handful of cold war vintage tornadoes armed with super missiles that were built to take out tanks. It won’t make the slightest difference to ISIS but will heap a score of dead civilians onto those America and Russia have already killed in the war on terror.

      Its not being done to secure British interests or secure us from attack here. It is done for no other reason than prestige. It’s being done for nothing less than hubris. Its being done to give Cameron a little bit of swagger.

      The US don’t need us. Russia could not give a shit. The Syrians have had enough. ISIS think its just what it needs as a rallying call. But ISIS plans for Syria are just as full of shit as the Wests.

      This is not the first time ISIS declared a caliphate and then lost it because no one wants them. The declared them in Iraq, Yemen, Mali and have recently popped up in Chechnya. They have all failed. Just as we failed to secure Iraq or Afghanistan for the west.

      This is not a clash of civilizations. Nor does ISIS, ISIL or whatever it calls itself represent an extensional threat to the west. Cut through all the bullshit. The propaganda and righteous cries from each side. All you have is a land grab for economic and political power being fought on the cheap.

      If they really thought this group was a threat – the West would have went in mob handed with massive troop levels and kicked the living shit out of both ISIS and Assad. In the west It’s just business, its market share and contracts. Its oil and gas. Its about the money but they don’t think its worth selling the kids inheritance to win it. But the plan is bollocks. All it does is breed resentment and resistance. All the bombing will achieve is to take large pieces of rubble and turn them into smaller bits of rubble

      For ISIS – its the same but they haven’t learned from previous failures that they can never truly be a state doing what they do. They hope they can use religion to rally Muslims in their defense. But guess what? The majority don’t want that kind of world…huh who knew.

      What we have at the moment is an incident pit. Every decision we take will incrementally make matters worse. The only way to have avoided it, was not to step into the pit. Too late for that now.

      In a years time, those war mongering shills who lead us into this, will be wringing their hands and demanding to know what went wrong. Inquiries demanded, answers expected.

      The only thing we have learned from our mistakes is that we have learned nothing from our mistakes.

      Call them out. Don’t let these fuckers hide behind service men or guilt trip us into silence when the coffins come back. Bear witness. Watch the horror of dead civilians. Remember the braying cheers and for fuck sake, don’t let them forget it.

    213. Iain More says:

      So some warmongering psychopathic Brit Nat Labour MPs got abused by their own Party members – AWE DIDDUMS – POOR WEE SOULS.

    214. Lesley-Anne says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      3 December, 2015 at 6:41 pm

      @Lesley-Anne

      If Turkey do not need to buy oil from Daesh, why are they? it is so cheep on legit market.

      It is not that Turkey HAS to buy oil from Daesh Scott it is that they CHOOSE to buy oil from Daesh. In doing so they are, obviously, supporting Daesh. Remember Turkey has an inbuilt hatred of the Kurds and as far as Turkey is concerned any enemy of my enemy is my friend!

      Skooshcase says:
      3 December, 2015 at 6:24 pm

      So, Scotland and its people are now legitimate targets for the death-cult maniacs. Machine-gunning and blowing-up innocent Scots in high numbers is now a horrific possibility.

      You are very probably right Skoosh but really would ANYONE dare attack Scotland and its people?

      Seriously?

      I mean has Daesh not heard that WE have a secret weapon that we can launch at a moments notice … the Smeatonator! 😀

    215. Thepnr says:

      November 16th 2015

      Hilary Benn wakes us with a hangover and thinks “Fuck did I really say that on the telly”.

    216. john king says:

      Take a look at a map of the middle east and North Africa,
      http://tinyurl.com/yomm9m
      anything catch your eye about the countries such as Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Algeria ect?

      Its the straight lines, only countries governed by European imperialists have straight lines at their borders, look at the countries to the south and the countries in Europe, natural borders,following natural contours and natural ethnic boundaries,

      But in our infinite wisdom we decided who should be Iraqi, Syrian, Egyptian, Malian, Algerian, it mattered not one jot what the local populations who have lived in these regions for millennia thought, WE, the masters knew best.
      Apparently we’ve learned nothing, we STILL think WE KNOW BEST!

    217. Lesley-Anne says:

      I have a question for the bacon lover.

      In the whole weeks of lead up to this vote last night we got bored to tears with the almost non stop mentioning of the fact that “we” have the technology to defeat Daesh, namely Brimstone!!!

      Having heard snippets of the news earlier tonight, I have come to the conclusion that someone has been telling porkies! The aircraft that bombed Syria last night used Paveway bombs. So last night we bombed Syria using the SAME bombs as everyone else, effectively.

      Now you can call me a cynic if you like but I thought we were the techno kings in the art of war because we had Brimstone. I have one question … “Whaurs the Brimstones?”

    218. Dr Jim says:

      @michael diamond 7.02pm

      Many in America believe the CIA have done exactly that to further their ends
      They call it a “False Flag Operation”
      The Twin Towers Aircraft Black Boxes is an example, the FBI claimed they were never recovered due to destruction by the fire yet Black Boxes are designed to withstand 1200 degrees centigrade which when tests were completed on the Towers it was found the fire had never reached temperatures close to that

      A local firefighter at the time gave evidence he saw three boxes being removed which was denied by authorities later

      There’s lots on that story and people always start shouting about conspiracy theory nuts, but there is much evidence to support it

      You pays your money and decides yourself, me, I don’t know but there’s a guy called Governor Jesse Ventura (ex navy seal) who says he does

      I suppose the thing is, who do you believe and who do you trust
      Funny though they found body parts, even bits of teeth they were able to DNA test and identify yet no trace, not a shred, not the teeniest weeniest bit of any of the four black boxes survived, even though they’re made out of stuff you can’t break. destroy,or melt

      I’m only telling you what I’ve read

    219. sinky says:

      On channel four news cathy newmam included alex salmond with online abuse of hilary benn then socialist trisum hunt then given free reign to attack salmond

    220. starlaw says:

      Labour MPs who are applauded and cheered by Tories, deserve the sack. They have failed entirely to represent the people who elected them, trusted them. People who expected their protection from the worst Tory excesses. Guess who will pay the costs of these smart weapons It wont be the MPs or their ilk.

    221. Dr Jim says:

      @Lesley Anne

      If all it was going to take was the Magnifico Brimstones could the Yanks have not asked for a wee lend of a few till the weekend a while ago and it would have been all over by now

      Must be just our Great Britness they needed (Brit Bombs are Better Bombs) no matter what they’re called

    222. Bill Fraser says:

      So obvious .A glory hunter.His father would be ashamed of him.

    223. Dorothy Devine says:

      I cannot say I am upset on behalf of the MPs who think it a jolly wheeze to declare war on innocent , desperate men women and children, that they have been castigated by Joe/Josephine public.

      They should be aware of what their constituents think of their actions and how many think they are evil shits.

      After all it may help them make the decision to stand or not at the next election – I suggest it may be foolhardy to think standing would be a good idea because they have just woken those South of the border to the ” game ” the establishment play and how much democracy is ignored and demeaned by their elected representatives.

      Tick ,tock as they say.

    224. Lesley-Anne says:

      Aye you’d have thought that would have been the case Dr. Jim. I’m guessing the poor wee Americans are, like us in S******d, too wee, too poor and too stupid to be able to figure out how to use these Brimstone thingys. 😀

    225. David says:

      Seems such a long time ago that I was handing out leaflets and stickers reading Bairns not Bombs and looking forward to living in a country that worked for peace.

      Instead thanks to the No campaign and it’s supporters we have a bunch of baying bloodthirsty cowards beating themselves into a frenzy at the prospect of dropping bombs on bairns.

      I look forward to any of these murdering gits turning up at my door during next years campaign.

    226. john king says:

      Why is the scenery moving past the window of a stationery car in Emmerdale?…eh Irene waants tae ken.

    227. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @David Agnew (7.29) –

      Hear hear.

    228. asklair says:

      The yes movement for me was all about the positive attitude. Sadly we failed to stop the English MPs from pulling us into killing people. The positive thing I see is people who I never ever thought were party political are now openly supporting the SNP on humanity grounds since Westminster voted to wage another illegal war.

    229. john king says:

      @ME @8.03
      “Why is the scenery moving past the window of a stationery car in Emmerdale?”

      ooohhhhnnoooootheresnaebrakesheeellllpppp!!!

    230. Legerwood says:

      Lesley Anne @ 7.43 pm

      I noticed the mention on the news about the planes using Paveway bombs as well. I also heard them say that the planes were not designed to take Brimstone missiles.

      Now we are told!!

    231. Petra says:

      @ michael diamond says at 7:02 pm ”Wouldn’t put it past ungodly forces in London to orchestrate a “terrorist” attack in Scotland, just to hammer home the point, that we should stick together, just to spite the “terrorists” you know.”

      Exactly in line with my way of thinking too Michael and I have absolutely no faith in their Intelligence Services protecting anyone at all from genuine terrorists. They can’t even keep track of known potential terrorists leaving and re-entering the Country. Too busy keeping an eye on people like us, no doubt.

      Additionally it hasn’t gone unnoticed that Scotland is lumbered with THEIR Trident and now THEIR jets at Lossiemouth. However note that no one in Scotland is employed in either industry … not that we’d want to of course but it just highlights how they are using us. Treating us like a bunch of mugs.

      They’ve got some brass neck locating their Nukes, jets and bombs in a Country that doesn’t want anything to do with their warfare and the sooner we get out of this nightmare the better.

      Many people were pointing out pre-Referendum that if the Tories got in this is exactly what would happen … posts deleted in an instant of course.

      It just p*sses me right off to think that if we had used our bl**dy wits we would have been totally free of all of this last year. However there are to many PC people living in Scotland and they’ll need to buck up, and see the light, next time round if we want to win OUR WAR with Westminster.

      ‘US Knew About Glasgow Attack Weeks Before’

      http://news.sky.com/story/524473/us-knew-about-glasgow-attack-weeks-before

      Glasgow Airport suspects on M15 files; US warned of terror threat

      http://www.uk-airport-news.info/glasgow-airport-news-040707b.htm

    232. JGedd says:

      Sorry, just had time to skim comments, but has any media personage questioned Benn fils on why he changed his mind so absolutely in such a short time? Has it even been mentioned by Unionist media?

      (Don’t watch TV news and certainly couldn’t stomach it today. Judging by comments up thread, the news media would appear to be as obnoxiously triumphalist as I expected.)

    233. Valerie says:

      Did you know that USA recently showed footage of their alleged bombing of oil fields in Syria? A few days later, I saw on RT, a claim that Russian oil field bombing footage was being claimed by the Americans to be theirs.

      In another article, I read that of the thousands of bombing runs, made by America, a very small number of bombs were dropped, as it was deemed ‘too dangerous’ to pilots.

      Now – please read this, and tell me how Cameron et al can sleep.

      I’ve got to stop reading, I’m literally losing my mind over this deception.

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bizarre-explanation-for-why-the-u-s-has-avoided-bombing-isis-oil-wells/5493167

    234. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lesley-Anne says: 3 December, 2015 at 7:43 pm:

      ” … I have one question … “Whaurs the Brimstones?”

      Easy question, Lesley-Anne, Dave keeps them in the same place as his ither staines – in a deid pig’s mooth.

    235. Robert Peffers says:

      @cearc says: 3 December, 2015 at 7:11 pm:

      ” … It was quite deliberate to ignore the old existing national boundaries and create ‘new’ countries on the divide and rule basis”

      Perhaps more a case of, “This is the French colony”, “This is the German Colony”, “This is the British Colony”. et al

    236. Glamaig says:

      Radio Scotland news – gridlock in Penicuik due to rush hour snow. Prepare for bad SNP, cant prevent snow, or keep roads clear, tomorrow.

      Also several minutes devoted to demands for apologies for Salmond’s ‘birling in grave’ comment. Seemed a fair comment to me particularly since even the BBC are highlighting Tony Benn’s passionate speech against the bombing of Iraq.

      And that’s all from our colonial broadcaster tonight.

    237. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lesley-Anne says: “Whaurs the Brimstones?”

      They cost £100,000 each, Paveway costs £22,000 each.

      Records I found indicated 93 Brimstones were used in the bombings of Iraq, no figure for numbers of Paveways.

      Various UK Gov sources have quoted “Precision-guided small bombs”. Well, Paveway IV is 500 lbs, half the size of the previous version, I’ve seen it described as a small bomb in defence articles.

      Brimstone is 100 lbs, but that’s with both warheads, if just the first one was used it’s probably as low as 10 or 20 lbs.

      Was there deliberate deception? It’s a question the media should be asking, and a question MPs should have been asking. They might have still voted “Aye”, but at least it would have been with full possession of the facts rather than selective and misleading wording.

    238. Phronesis says:

      A very robust epidemiological study published recently in the BMJ

      The authors examined 78?769 civilian violent deaths that occurred in Syria from 18 March 2011 to 21 January 2015 and conclude 16-23% of those killed were children (this sample is an under estimate of the true number because of challenges of collecting data in a war zone)

      ‘The government and rebel factions in Syria typically claim that the targets of their bombs and shells are enemy combatant strongholds, but our findings indicate that for Syrian children these are the weapons most likely to cause death. Children who died in the Iraq war were also most likely to have been killed by bombs or shells…

      Because children in the Syrian conflict are generally not in a combatant role, the high proportion of children among victims of explosive weapons may signal possible disproportionate or indiscriminate behaviour or weapons. It could also be the result of the intentional targeting of civilian dwellings and areas likely to contain high proportions of children…

      For children, on the other hand, deaths caused by air bombardments or shelling were even more likely than those caused by chemical weapons. Ground level explosives were similarly likely to cause the death of children as chemical weapons in this war. Although chemical weapons are an international target for control and destruction, air launched bombs and shells, which are at least equally and in our analyses probably more lethal (for children in particular), remain without effective sanction…

      In NSAG controlled areas, the odds of death were significantly higher for children than women for all explosive weapons: 1.47 times higher for air bombardments (95% CI 1.33 to 1.63), 1.31 times higher for shelling (1.20 to 1.43), and 2.04 times higher for ground level explosives (1.67 to 2.49). The odds of death by chemical weapons were lower for children than women (OR 0.45, 0.35 to 0.57)…

      Our analysis indicates that using explosive weapons in populated areas in Syria has disproportionately lethal effects on women and children and should be urgently prohibited. Given the mortality burden of weapons on children and women in Syria, active measures to stem the flow of heavy armaments to all sides in the Syrian conflict are a possible way to cease hostilities. This was a major lesson learnt from the Lebanese civil war when the import of heavy weapons was stopped by outside powers and should be used now’

      Guha-Sapir, D., Rodriguez-Llanes, J. M., Hicks, M. H., Donneau, A. F., Coutts, A., Lillywhite, L., and Fouad, F. M. Civilian deaths from weapons used in the Syrian conflict. BMJ 351, h4736. 2015.

      This additional report from 2013 firmly puts last night vote in the cosy atmosphere of a voting chamber thousands of miles away into a Syrian context that actually affects real Syrians, many of whom are minors

      ‘The grim and relentless rise in casualty numbers seems set to continue…By far the primary cause of death reported for children was explosive weapons, killing 7,557 (71%) of the 10,586 children whose specific cause of death was recorded. • Air bombardment was given as the cause of death for 2,008 of the children reported killed by explosive weapons’

      Dardagan H, Salama H. Stolen futures. The hidden toll of child casualties in Syria. Nov 2013

      http://www.everycasualty.org/downloads/reports/Stolen-Futures.pdf.

      It’s a complicated concept to grasp isn’t it that children don’t fight for Daesh or Assad.

    239. john king says:

      Sorry,
      I have to go to my bed now,
      I may sob for a while,
      but I will fall asleep in a warm safe bed,
      my cat may wake me during the night,
      I WON’T be awakened by a bomb removing my roof and killing my family .

      GOD HELP SYRIA!

    240. HandandShrimp says:

      Brimstone is a smart anti-armour missile. Its small warhead is designed to punch a hole through the armour of tanks and armoured vehicles causing splintering and serious damage in a tank turret or armoured vehicle. It isn’t designed for chasing terrorists down alleyways and into buildings.

      It is a fire and forget weapon that was designed to deal with conventional armed forces who possess sophisticated counter measures. A couple of Tornado planes could take out a couple of dozen tanks and clear a way for UK land forces. However, if Daesh are on the road in trucks a drone with Hellfire is cheaper and just as effective.

      For bigger targets they are just going to use paveways like the US and French.

      The hard sell on the need for us to be involved because we have Brimstone was just so much chaff.

    241. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain More says: 3 December, 2015 at 7:33 pm:

      “So some warmongering psychopathic Brit Nat Labour MPs got abused by their own Party members – AWE DIDDUMS – POOR WEE SOULS.”

      It’s all right, though, Iain, to abuse the sweaties. Now we have Corbyn, who masterminded the divisions in his party by NOT issuing a three line whip and telling anyone who dared to defy the leadership they would be up for deselection by the membership, (the bit of the party he actually leads).

      Now the bloody numptie is showing his true colours by warning the membership, (that he actually leads), in an email to stop bullying the elected MPs, (who want to rid themselves of Corbyn), while Burham has also called for a new code of conduct to curb abuse.

      Where were these two numpties when the Labour Barons, knights, lords, MPs and MSPs were abusinng the SNP and YES supporters?

      Seems it is all right by them if the Labour lot abuse around half of Scotland’s people but a no! no! if they abuse their own Labourites.

    242. Capella says:

      RE online abuse, Andy Murray has always been subjected to it and even after his Davis Cup win he was bombarded with nasty tweets. (Not sufficiently British apparently)
      This is not picked up by the media but Stuart Cosgrove mentioned it on the John Beattie radio programme at lunch time today. The Media Review is one of the best things on Radio Scotland. Stuart and Eamonn O’Neil provide an excellent analysis of the Syria vote and fallout.
      The Media Review starts at 1 hr 10 mins and the Andy Murray comments are at 1 hr 19 mins.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ptsyl

      I almost hesitate to mention it in case they are suddenly dropped like everyone else who has anything relevant to say!

    243. christine says:

      Roland Dumas 2013 interview says it all

    244. Grouse Beater says:

      A moment’s festive cheer:

      Just read a plot for a drama. It begins:

      “The action takes place in the Scotch Highlands, in and around Falkirk.”

      Written by an Englishman without a compass, maybe Gordon Brown.

    245. Valerie says:

      Oooo, those Labour rebels complaining that calls for their deselection, and being told ‘blood on their hands’ just ain’t cricket.

      *sniggers*

      Do allow me to inject a Scottish flavour to the abuse –

      GIRFUY

    246. Tackety Beets says:

      I have been otherwise engaged recently , effectively “oot o the loop”

      Due to time constraints “speed read above” so apologies if I missed an important post.

      I’m curious on the following and wish to be updated or corrected :

      Any info on the alleged ” foiled attacks on UK , eh 7 of them ?”

      Hammeron has been preaching to Parliament that we need to get into bombing to help out as we have these super-dooper accurate Brimstone bombs. Yet tonight the news readers tell us the planes arriving today are using “Paveway”. True or false ?

      Tony Benn has been admired on here often , happy for you to feel this way , BUT
      I’m sure I saw a documentary many years ago. Tony Benn , probably along with others, set up a Co in Scotland with the idea of taking control of the Oil ,under the pretext of being Scottish and for the benefit of Scotland.
      Anyone got any info / link to this ? If only to help me do a we refresher , it’s due.

    247. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Scot Finlayson, Turks buying oil at $20 a barrel, half price and the bonus of using IS to have a go at the Kurds and destabilise their neighbour. Whats not to like? Oh aye, almost forgot, they’re in Nato, so they’ve got a big gang behind them(for the time being anyway…)

    248. Grouse Beater says:

      And another colonial howler:

      The Guardian film critic can compare the beauty of Lewis Grassic Gibbon’s “Sunset Song” only with a Thomas Hardy novel. You see, we’re all really Anglo-centric at heart.

    249. heedtracker says:

      BBC r4 news crew should call themselves Party Political Broadcasters on behalf of you know who. On the hour Cammers calmly explaining its a long war ahead, our thoughts should be on pilots and their families so shut up, extremely aggressive BBC/tory monstering of Lab divisions via war vote, aren’t Lab shits eh listeners.

      R4 go into the greenest party ever/biggest liars ever, reneging on carbon capture in their Science prog tonight but the scientist from Edinburgh uni says he’s incandescent with fury at the _____ party cuts last week.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06qml0r

      13.30 minutes in.

      Its not just carbon capture from energy producer plants, they were going for even more bigger industrial CO2 producers. Toryboys fcuked it all off and as per, lots of other countries are well ahead and it has massive global warming reducing potential, BUT lets have another bloody good UKOK war instead.

      Hope that Edinburgh uni scientist voted NO too.

      No wonder JK Rowling says she only listens to radio 3, for the culture n shit.

    250. Nana says:

      @Tackety Beets here you go..

      https://archive.is/rjTrr

    251. Gary45% says:

      O/T
      On a slightly happier note,
      I to remember the Mr Benn cartoons, only Hilary Benn would walk into the changing room, and come out with his pants on his head (back to front of course).

      Grouse Beater@10.10
      Another moment of festive cheer.
      Toodleoothenoo is applying for the job as science correspondent with the EBC, As well as galaxy’s, mars and milky way’s, they are now talking about ripples up in space.
      Num,num,num.

    252. Capella says:

      @ Tackety beets
      Maybe you are thinking of BNOC British National Oil Company, set up by Tony Benn and headquartered ib Glasgow. it was intended to be a nationalised industry. It became Britoil, then was privatised and sold to BP.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britoil

    253. Nana says:

      @Tackety Beets

      Meant to say I did have a link for a blog re the documentary you allude to but can not find it right now. So I posted the bbc link instead.

      Will see what I can find later

    254. Tackety Beets says:

      Thanks Nana , you’re a star.

    255. Andrew McLean says:

      Black Joan and Thepnr

      Yes I herd the speach from Hilary Benn the first time catching bits on my iPod speakers, but driving home tonight I heard it on DAB surround sound, forget what he says for now,

      I used to do a bit of public speaking, so as part of my CPD I was on a training day in a hotel in Birmingham, boring stuff, but I got chatting to the course provider at the end of the day, as I was staying in the hotel that night I was in no rush, we were discussing delivery and the hooks used to capture the audience. When he said do you know who was great, as we had heard Kennedy, King, Churchill amoungst others I was wondering who,

      Well if I say it I will get into trouble so I won’t, purely from an academic viewpoint, volume turned up, surround sound, I could hear him thump the desk, his breathing, his voice rising in disgust at his contemptible enemy, his pride in his shared history?

      And the shouts of outstanding, hear hear, from the mesmerised audience, spellbound, did he really say that?

      Academic that’s all, no judgment, just curious?

    256. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Tackety, The oil company was BNOC and I think it eventually became BP or was taken over and renamed, and sold off! Something like that.

      Re the bombs. Paveway are guided 500lb bombs wheras Brimstones are missiles with a small warhead designed to penetrate armour. The planes there are Tornados and Typhoons and I think Yesindyref2 noted above that the Typhoon isnt yet configured to use the Brimstones, they are only compatible with the Paveways, but I defer to him if I’m wrong. Completely different thing with different uses. As IS seem to be moving about in Toyota pickups then an anti armour missile seems to be overkill. Particularly as they are advanced tandem charge designed to overcome reactive armour, the sort you see on Russian tanks… oops, just had a thought.

    257. heedtracker says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/03/hilary-benn-speech-on-syria-exposes-political-genes

      Rancid even stinkier than usual over Benn. Once upon a time, rancid The Graun might done a WoS thing on what a complete and utter red tory Benn turned out to be last night but here we are.

      Phoney old conartists of The Graun exposes political genes of how the whole UKOK media is just establishment boot lickers and bullshitters.

      “Somewhere along the way, Hilary must have quietly concluded that dad was wrong, much as Tony repudiated William’s peerage and moderation.”

      It was somewhere between a couple of weeks ago and last night dear old rancid. Red tory Benn wants JC out.

    258. caz-m says:

      If Corbyn had whipped his Party he would have won on two fronts.

      Firstly, Cameron wouldn’t have went for a vote in the Commons, because he didn’t want the Tories being the only major Party to vote in favour of bombing Syria.

      Secondly, if Hilary Benn was forced to toe the Party line he said he would have resigned.

      So, due to Corbyn’s weakness, he has no one to blame but himself for what unfolded inside the Labour Party.

    259. Fireproofjim says:

      Tacketybeets
      Britoil was a great idea. It was a National Oil Company like Statoil in Norway.
      It owned oilfields and had the right to take a share in any new discovery. It could have contributed massively to the industry, but, as it was a national industry, Maggie Thatcher’s cabinet decided to sell it to their friends in BP round about 1980 if I remember rightly.
      It had a big office in Glasgow and employed top oil industry talent at high wages and was great for the economy. All gone at the stroke of a pen.
      Under this government it looks like Scotland will be the only country in the world to find massive amounts of oll and end up poorer.
      The oil price WILL recover. It always does. But it requires a Scottish government to cherish and develop this wonderful asset for the benefit of everybody instead of a few City cronies.
      Vote SNP/SNP

    260. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06qmpr2

      If youre bored, this is also a good dollop of UKOK propaganda. Classic BBC very soft soaping of one of the bankers that more or less destroyed world business.

      He should in jail but this is UKOK land, probably one of the most corrupt regimes in the world today, or completely lovely, honest and run with probity and accountability. This banskter says he did it all because the results had to be repeated on the books the next year.

      He got UKOK fired by Barclers board, also not stuck in the big house, so he puts the boot in hard. Great British finance is on the cusp of another IT revolution that will take out 100,000+ bank back office UKOK bank jobs.

    261. yesindyref2 says:

      @HandandShrimp
      Yes and no with the Brimstone. It was designed as a fire and forget but is now dual mode which is the one the RAF have, with laser guidance to allow a spotter to pick out specific targets amongs civilians (or friendlies).

      It’s also two explosives, one to penetrate, the second to destroy, but it seems it can be used with just the first explosive.

      Some info at this link, but the above is from others too.

      http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2011-11-10/vital-role-british-airpower-over-libya

    262. Lesley-Anne says:

      Legerwood says:
      3 December, 2015 at 8:48 pm

      Lesley Anne @ 7.43 pm

      I noticed the mention on the news about the planes using Paveway bombs as well. I also heard them say that the planes were not designed to take Brimstone missiles.

      Now we are told!!

      I’m never one to defend the Tory warmongers or the Britpack media but maybe when you heard the mention of not being designed to carry Brimstone Leger you heard them talking about the Typhoons. They are not fitted out to use Brimstone at present apparently but the GR4 Tornadoes can use them.

      Robert Peffers says:
      3 December, 2015 at 9:17 pm

      @Lesley-Anne says: 3 December, 2015 at 7:43 pm:

      ” … I have one question … “Whaurs the Brimstones?”

      Easy question, Lesley-Anne, Dave keeps them in the same place as his ither staines – in a deid pig’s mooth.

      Phew I’m glad they Brimstones are stored there Robert, I’d hate to think they were stored in the same place as the bacon lovers Trident missiles … up his earse!

      yesindyref2 says:
      3 December, 2015 at 9:41 pm

      @Lesley-Anne says: “Whaurs the Brimstones?”

      They cost £100,000 each, Paveway costs £22,000 each.

      Records I found indicated 93 Brimstones were used in the bombings of Iraq, no figure for numbers of Paveways.

      Thanks for that yesforindyref2 I just knew you’d be on the case. 😀

    263. Caroline Corfield says:

      “Or something like that”

      You are correct, it was something like that. The British National Oil Company was sold off to British Persia ( commonly misthought of as Petroluem) by Thatcher and allegedly the government retained a ‘golden share’ which appeared to be worthless, in terms of stopping BP shutting the purpose built Scottish headquarters of BNOC in Glasgow and its subsequent ‘witch hunt’ via redundancy of those formerly employed by BNOC ( who all had an identifier in their employee ref on their salary info).

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      @Alan Mackintosh
      Yes, according to the original plan Typhoon wouldn’t be able to use Brimstone until 2018 or 2017. But it could have been advanced, that’s money as much as time.

      But as far as the Brimstone being overkill, I think it’s the other way around, with Paveway at 250 Kg but Brimstone at 50Kg, and if instead of the tandem charge being used, it’s just the first one, the blast would be less hence, presumably, far less blast radius and casualties than the Paveway.

      So basically I think for urban targets Paveway would literally be overkill. But cheaper. It depends on how committed the UK Gov is to saving money, or saving civilians.

    265. ahundredthidiot says:

      Petra@8:54

      I have been hunted a few times from this site for thinking outside the box, but you are incorrect that US Intel knew about Glasgow airport attacks weeks before.

      These two idiots failed to detonate bombs in London, when they realised their equipment would be full of evidence, they panicked. Stuck a few gas cylinders in the back of their motor and went for the closest high value target without any sort of planning, which is why it failed so badly.

      I will though refer people to do their homework on op Himmler, op Gladio and op northwood, all evidence based verifiable episodes of state sponsored murder on their own citizens to achieve a particular aim

      Which is why I choose not to buy Paris.

    266. yesindyref2 says:

      Ended too soon again. Brimstone cost around 5 times as much as Paveway, as well as being 5 times smaller in explosive power.

    267. Gerry says:

      Saudi Arabia has brimstone missiles. The point was made in the debate yesterday.

    268. Tackety Beets says:

      Too many to thank ,I’m grateful for the prompt and excellent info on my questions.

      Thanking anyone else in advance for posts which are whirlin aboot oot there for the usual 20 mins , LOL

    269. mike cassidy says:

      Phronesis at 9.42.

      You are not paying attention.

      As some of us were ‘celebrating’ on the previous thread, we’ve got advanced sensors that can distinguish between civilian and enemy.

      Honestly!

      The MOD told us.

      And it makes me weep to think that nobody in the mainstream has yet queried that bullshit.

    270. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lesley-Anne
      Still looking it all up Lesley-Anne, amongst working. The devil is in the detail, and in this case that’s possibly almost literally true if Parliament hasn’t been fully informed over the technical details – or cost. Brimstone costs 5 times as much as the Paveway per missile, which could be a reason for using the more “collateral damage” causing Paveways.

      For me, money saving is not worth costing innocent lives.

      But I still need to do more research to check if my suspicions are really correct. Shame we have no investigative journalists worth the name, in the MSM.

    271. Lesley-Anne says:

      Gerry says:
      3 December, 2015 at 11:14 pm

      Saudi Arabia has brimstone missiles. The point was made in the debate yesterday.

      Thing is Gerry Saudi is too busy bombing Yemen to be bothered to go bomb in Syria as well. Not that we will ever hear that much, if anything, about Yemen … it is not in the Bacon lovers interest for that information to be made readily available.

    272. nodrog says:

      Pity we cannot obtain information on who bought shares in UK armament companies from 1/11/15 and up to 1/12/15. Could be interesting especially as the conflict is scheduled for 3/4 years.

    273. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Yesindyref2, aye i was meaning that the Brimstone was overkill in terms of the softskin pickups that are being used. Both in terms of its cost £100K and its anti reactive armour role. In contrast to Hellfire or Maverick which I think are much cheaper. Wasnt meaning in terms of explosive power per se.

      But I guess that Brimstone is BAE, wheras Paveway, Hellfire and Maverick are Raytheon/Lockheed Martin.

    274. yesindyref2 says:

      @Gerry
      Saudi has a good few Tornados and I think they’ve all been upgraded. I didn’t know they had Brimstones but in view of their close relationship with the UK and BAe it wouldn’t surprise me.

    275. Alan Mackintosh says:

      100th idiot, yep, would you be surprised to learn that there was a drill going on in Paris when the incident ocurred?

    276. @Andrew McLean

      My first thought when watching Benn`s well rehearsed performance was its style was Nuremberg 1938.

      This was a call to war,this was a call for foreign blood,this was a call to the old days of UK empire.

      Benn appealed to the base instincts of Red and Blue Torys.

    277. Lesley-Anne says:

      Oh look … some of tomorrow’s papers, the Times and the Sun, have headlines going with a story about the M.O.D. warning the bacon lover not to go with the 70,000 boots on the ground line.

      Well who knew … I mean WHO actually knew that the 70,00 figure for boots on the ground was dodgy, very very dodgy? 😉

      Oh that’s right … WE knew! 😀

    278. Edward says:

      Sorry to be O/T
      But is anyone else having problems accessing Facebook on PC or Laptop?

      #facebookdown trending

    279. ahundredthidiot says:

      Alan mackintosh

      Not surprised at all, for me that’s part of the script, no-one wants to look bad which is why everyone’s on standby and all the shooters must die so there can be no court case.

      Just like today in America, exact same thing.

      And to think I used to be in favour of the US introducing gun control laws.

      How niaive was I.

    280. Edward says:

      Well shit my breeks

      Now leaking out on the media, questions about the ‘70,000 rebels’ claim by Cameron

      According to Sun, “MOD disowns Dodgy Dossier by PM of 70k anti-IS Troops”
      and
      Times “Army Chiefs warned PM over 70,000 rebel claim”

      So now one of the planks of Cameron’s argument for going to war has just evaporated. Curious that this comes out after the vote

    281. Nana says:

      @nodrog

      I remembered a dinner for parliamentarians by the defence industry earlier this year [Curran was very quick to say she did not attend]. Might be worth checking the names against those who voted for more war.

      https://www.caat.org.uk/issues/influence/resources/2015-02-03.ads.dinner-parliamentarians.pdf

    282. WP says:

      So America, France and others have been bombing Syria long before we became involved, how are all these oilfields and other targets still intact. Nice of the others to leave us something to fire at.

    283. Legerwood says:

      OT

      Jeremy Corbyn’s brother is on This Week talking about climate change. Don’t think he believes in it – if I have followed him but it is a bit difficult to do so.

      Truly a sight to see.

    284. Nana says:

      @Tackety Beets

      I wonder if the documentary was Diomhair which was shown on Bbc Alba. Perhaps that is why the uk gov are withdrawing funding.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-id8hYRx0D4

      On looking through my archives I clicked on a number of google book pages and strangely they are all blank.

      Anyhow here’s a few links you might find interesting.

      https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/departments/icbh/witness/PDFfiles/NorthSea.pdf

      https://www.energyvoice.com/opinion/86950/north-sea-reflections/

      http://www.oilofscotland.org/Scots_Independent.pdf

    285. mike cassidy says:

      Re military exercises —

      How many take place each year in France?

      How many took place and there were no terrorist attacks?

      Basic questions, guys.

    286. Capella says:

      A little background on “Why ISIS Exists”.
      Covers the chemical weapons slur.
      Covers the pretend war on terror.

      “Foreign intelligence and special forces (British and Qatari), and potentially US personnel, have operated inside Syria since at least February of 2012. The CIA admits to spending $1Bn per year training Syrian insurgents and boasts that it has “trained and equipped nearly 10,000 fighters sent into Syria over the past several years.” If US personnel aren’t actually inside the territory of Syria, their pets surely are.”

      https://archive.is/FbRJw

      Cameron & Co must know all this, they meet in COBRA. The Red Tories must know all this, not so long ago they met in COBRA.

      So what is the charade that was the Commons Debate all about?

    287. Grouse Beater says:

      On telly because you’re a brother of a politician?

      My brother is s chippy and no broadcaster has called me. What a strange country.

      Next thing Hilary Benn tells the nations we must bomb ISIS because our democracy is virtuous- oh, wait!

    288. ahundredthidiot says:

      Mike cassidy

      NOT military exercises, major emergency services exercises, and each major city usually do live practical full blown ones every two years.

    289. Training Day says:

      Seen today’s Herald front page?

      Still fancy buying the Sunday version?

    290. Bob Mack says:

      @Edward,

      Yep, have not been able to access facebook for a few days now.

    291. K1 says:

      Same as the London bombings Alan, ‘terrorist drills’ run by ‘Visor Consultants’ a ‘UK-based crisis management firm’ on the morning of 7/7.

      http://www.sott.net/article/124587-London-Bombings-The-Facts-Speak-For-Themselves

    292. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Leger, Piers Corbyn is an Astrophyisist who runs a weather forecasting company. As far as I am aware he is fully aware of Climate change. Its just that he recognises that it is a cyclical thing and not the man-made creation that many in the media like to portray. I’ll illustrate that with this gem from a few years ago.

      “One must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore.”
      ~ Ottmar Edenhofer, Co-Chair, UN/IPCC WG-3

    293. Tom Platt says:

      From Craig Murray’s site:-“Hilary Benn is very serious about his power grab and has been laying the ground for it very carefully. On 18 November BICOM – the British Israeli Communications and Research Centre – published this:

      Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn told a Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) lunch yesterday that relations with Israel must be based on cooperation and rejected attempts to isolate the country.

      Addressing senior party figures in Westminster, Benn praised Israel for its “progressive spirit, vibrant democracy, strong welfare state, thriving free press and independent judiciary.” He also called Israel “an economic giant, a high-tech centre, second only to the United States. A land of innovation and entrepreneurship, venture capital and graduates, private and public enterprise.”

      Consequently, said Benn, “Our future relations must be built on cooperation and engagement, not isolation of Israel. We must take on those who seek to delegitimise the state of Israel or question its right to exist.”

      It is worth reading the next article BICOM published. Brigadier General Michael Herzog, head of strategy for the Israeli defence Force, sets out a strategy for Israeli interests in Syria which dovetails precisely with what Benn and Cameron were pushing in the Commons. Note that Herzog says an overall diplomatic solution is not realistic and rather de facto partitioning of Syria suits Israel’s interests. Therefore there should be no waiting for diplomatic progress before western military action.

      With his abandonment of any pretended concern for the slow and agonising genocide of the Palestinians, and his strident support for Trident, Benn is embracing the Israeli establishment and the British military and political establishment. In return, the Tories roared his speech to the rafters, while the media, and especially the Genie Energy linked media, are boosting him to the Labour leadership.

      The United Kingdom has, temporarily, an opposition leadership which is not controlled, Zionist, neo-con and in the pocket of the arms industry. Benn has positioned himself very carefully to offer himself as the vehicle for the entire establishment to move to correct this aberration.”

    294. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Re Hilary Benn exiting his uber Tory, war-mongering, Brit imperialist closet & his “sainted” father:

      First, no surprise there.

      He has Fabian antecedents, for goodness sake.

      Secondly. his auld man was a British reactionary Unionist fakir with a pipe stunt – which he nicked from Harold Wilson – and who pro-actively decimated Scottish industry, ripped off our oil and gas sector, and put the boot-boy boot into our body politic whilst puffing benignly away.

      Enough with the hagiography.

      The son is his father’s spawn.

    295. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Training Day at 12.11

      It doesn’t seem to matter how often it is pointed out that the Herald and the Sunday Herald have entirely different editorial teams and entirely different agendas some people don’t get it. Do you confuse the Sunday Mail and the Daily Mail as well?

    296. ben madigan says:

      With regards to Hilary Benn’s motivations for his speech – maybe there are patricidal Freudian undertones, maybe he wants the title Lord Stansgate that his father renounced, maybe he wants to be a great statesman, maybe the Tories made an offer he couldn’t refuse – whatever . . . .
      He appeared as the quintessential upper class Englishman who cannot /will not understand the non-English point of view of other inhabitants of this UK.

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/no-terrorist-sympathizers-in-westminster/

    297. Petra says:

      @ Phronesis at 9:42 …..

      Phronesis thanks for your post. We read these reports. We study the statistics but can any of us really get our heads around how these people are truly suffering? My head actually feels as though it’s going to burst at times thinking of it all. And my heart just breaks.

      Parents sitting in their homes that are now reduced to dust covered hovels never knowing, from minute to minute, when they and their children are going to be blown to pieces; worst still watching their children suffering horrific burns and injuries to the point of death. Worried about and feeling protective towards their elderly, sick or handicapped relatives but knowing that they can’t protect them at all.

      Although they may never, ever have committed any crime at all: may have been the most decent of people they now have the most powerful and rabid of enemies (61 Countries now) flying above capable of killing them and barbaric enemies living amidst. At the mercy of Daesh raping, torturing and / or killing them in the most hellish of ways, but more than anything never knowing when or how it will end. Constantly praying for it to end. Praying as our leaders know that bombing won’t end it at all. Could go on for years says Cameron. Every bomb dropped fills the Treaury coffers … drag it out say those with vested interests.

      By God I can truly understand why hundreds of thousands if not millions of people absolutely HATE the West. I say this because I think of how I would feel sitting night after night wondering who on earth, on this Earth, on this Planet can I turn to for help? Nobody?! Most Syrians I would think are praying for Assad to win the most inequitable of battles ever faced by any one Country in decades, if not centuries.

      I too just wonder if this nightmare will ever end? We hear stories and read that NATO, the World Bank, the IMF, the EU, the Zionists and more than anything the US and our own Country are totally corrupt. We’re aware of the power of the CorpMedia propaganda machine and know that they are duping billions of people on this planet, so how on earth, against such odds, can any single person, group of people or even mass of people ever outwit these individuals / institutions and turn things around?

    298. MrObycyek says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Yes it did remind me of the man with one nut. The thing with Kennedy, Dr King Jnr, Churchill etc was that they actually believed what they said. Hilary Benn is a cowardly little weasel trying to undermine his own leader.

      The speech JFK gave in June 1963 at the American University in Washington is for me still one of the greatest anti-war speeches ever made. War is never inevitable.

    299. CmonIndy says:

      Independent is running with this Benn back flip.

    300. Lesley-Anne says:

      Looking like Labour may have won the Oldham by election. UKIP complaining quite loudly about … erm … postal votes!

      Now then it may just be me but I seem to recall there being a wee bit of a stushie over postal votes at some point in 2014. 😀

    301. heedtracker says:

      Oldham just told the BBC/MSM to stick it where the toryboy sun don’t shine, just like Scotland does, mostly:D

    302. crazycat says:

      @ ben madigan (and Ronnie Anderson earlier)

      When Tony Benn renounced his title in order to remain in the Commons, it was kept in abeyance. When he died it was inherited by his oldest son, Hilary’s brother, who is the current Viscount Stansgate.

      If Hilary wants a title, he’ll have to get his own, and it won’t be hereditary.

    303. K1 says:

      One last push for the noo;

      http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria

      Standing at just over 88,500 signatures.

    304. Petra says:

      I’m beginning to think that I’m going doolally. Who cares what weapons the UK is using? Brimstone or blo*dy Paveway? They’re killing innocent people. End of.

      Maybe I’m saying this because I don’t have a clue about how much damage, how many people one can kill compared to another, just like the poor, wait to get blown to bits by a Brimstone or Paveway, Syrians.

      ”Oh great my granny was obliterated by a Paveway not a Brimstone … that was different, cool man.”

      Let’s just start to do something constructive about this! Brimstone or Paveway?

      I live in Scotland. I’m paying taxes. I don’t want Trident to be located here. I don’t want Westminster’s jets being based in Scotland. I don’t agree with the UK bombing in Syria. I don’t want the blood of innocents on my hands. I’m not willing for MY hard-earned money to be spent on such warfare. And MOST Scots agree with me.

      Westminster may rule us but we can’t allow them to control our minds or actions.

      We should get together and march south from Scotland to Westminster. Fund raise to cover peoples travel expenses between working and reuniting with marchers. I’m sure many English people would also join us on the way.

      Westminster has just taken this country to WAR, once again. WAR. Let’s just get out there and DO something FGS. What’s happened to the Scots? No massive ‘Not in my Name’ Protests? Sign a petition that sad to say will do nought. Discuss Brimstone versus Paveway online? We should be marching in the streets. Have a National (Scottish) Strike. Refuse to pay our taxes. Refuse to pay our TV license. Protest at Faslane and Lossiemouth. Fly anti-war flags from our cars, place in our windows and so on … where’s Ronnie?

      Somethings sadly lacking here. Maybe it’s me! Then again when I think about it some of the shining, militant stars of the Labour Party movement, in the past, WOULD have dealt with this. And say what you like about Tommy Sheridan but give him his due. He’ll go down in history as being one of Scotlands most effective activists. They’re gone now but what about the SNP? Are we just a bunch of all talk, especially online, no action type of folks now?

    305. Barbara McKenzie says:

      Those who still enjoy the fairytale that the Syrian government was responsible for the Gouta massacre really must look at:

      Who Attacked Ghouta? : An analysis of all evidence relating to the chemical attack in Ghouta on August 21st 2013 – An online collaborative effort.

      Who Gouta concluded that: The only plausible scenario that fits the evidence is an attack by opposition forces.

      Petra, if you know of any other good stuff on Gouta, I would be interested to hear about it.

    306. Global Nomad says:

      In response to Ian More further up:

      The RAF conduct the two major exercises every year – one in the summer and one in the autumn. The exercise used to be known as JMC in which you had tri-services on exercise. I myself was involved in these exercises 5 times in five years with one of those based at Faslane.

      I don’t think you seeing the jets practicing has anything to do with the fact they knew they would be going. They are pretty much just generally practicing aerial manoeuvres.

      Don’t get me wrong, I abhor what these vermin are doing but just wanted to clarify this before people get the wrong impression.

    307. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      If the Daesh planned to kill 2,000 innocent civilians in Paris, London, wherever, but if 200 Daesh in Syria were killed it would save the lives of those 2,000 in Paris and London.

      And if to kill those 200 Daesh using Paveway would kill the 200 Daesh but also kill 2,000 civilans in Syria.

      But if to kill those 200 Daesh using Brimstone would kill the 200 Daesh with the deaths of 20 civilians in Syria.

      Do you think people in the UK should care what weapons the UK is using?

      I did say “if”.

    308. yesindyref2 says:

      I see Jim Sillars in the National is quoted as saying:

      He insisted that a vote for the SNP on the list system was “wasted” given that so many SNP MSPs were expected to be elected in the first-past-the-post constituency section of the ballot.

      Sillars went on: “Last time when I attended the count vast numbers of list SNP votes were of no value as the SNP got the constituency seats. These were essentially totally wasted votes.

      The last Holyrood count he would have been at would have been in 2011 when the SNP won 53 constituency seats but also 16 list seats, with a 44% share of the vote. Not 0 seats, votes not wasted, far from it. It gave the SNP the overall majority without which we would have had no Independence Referendum.

      Now the polls have the list vote as 52% for the SNP, and even the predictor has the SNP as getting 6 seats on the list. That’s 6 seats, not 0 seats, hardly a wasted vote.

      If anyone wants to make such sweeping ignorant comments, they should be forced to back it up on a region by region basis which they would be totally unable to do, and with detailed polling data from each constituency within each region, for both constituency vote and list vote. And even then a sample poll is just that, a sample taken on the day, it’s not the ballot itself.

      I wish Rise, the Greens, and Solidarity good luck, but please, no more nonsense.

    309. Ken500 says:

      The Oil industry has always been taxed so highly. The UK Gov has always had high receipts without, expenditure. Ie the Companies have always put up the money. ThevUK Gov takes 50% of total production. And then taxes it.The tax just now is 75%. The Oil price has fallen. TgevUK Gov as always got most of the vast profits from NS Oil and Gas. Absolute £Billions for over 50 years. The UK Gov has wasted it. Spent it on illegal wars tax evasion and banking fraud.

      Britoil took the Oil off the rigs in tankers. The staff has nothing to do. BP was a Britsh Co. (woese compsny in economyc history as it turned out). The UK Gov got vast revenues from the Oil industry even though it wasn’t nationalised. Possibly as much as if it had been nationalised. The Companies bore the cost of the exploration and production.

      It was political decisions that were unfortunate. Thatcher cancelled a pipe line (would not pay for it) which wasted £Billions of Gas. The Gas was burnt off. Thatcher tried to get the terminal to Newcastle at great expense. To take the Oil. The terminal should have been at Peterhead. The nearest land mass. It is beside Edinburgh. The Oil gets transported to Grangemouth.

      Osborne has the Oil tax at 75%. He Increased it 11% (£2Billion) in 2011). Cut it 5%. The Oil price as more than halved. But the tax is still 5% more than it was – 75%. Osbourne,is deliberately ruining the Oil industry losing thousands of jobs and stopping production (it is uneconomical) because of the tax. Killing the golden goose. Osbourne s deliberately ruining the Oil sector to try and stop Scotland from voting for Independence. Costing thousands and jobs and revenues. If the tax was lowered as the price has fallen. There would still be higher production and revenues from the Oil sector. Ie the tax should reflect the price.

    310. Ken500 says:

      BP the worst company in economic history. Broke UK Health & Safety rules. Heyward just received an Honorary Degree in Technology from RGU. A absolute disgrace, an insult to everyone who has died, the invironmental damage and the financial disaster. RGU should get it’s funds cut or be censored. Heyward should be in jail.

      Helicopters falling from the sky. Companies breaking UK Health & Safety Laws. No Inquiry despite the UK Gov Transport Committee recommending one. The Company sold up two years later for £250Million. They should have been out in jail.

      Ian Wood is a liar running down the Oil industry without mentioning Osbournes 75% revenue and tax take. Costing thousands of jobs and revenues. Killing the golden goose. All the No voting tax evaders will be paying their tax when Scotland gets tax raiding powers to pay the UK deficit for illegal wars and banking fraud. Then they will vote YES.

      Scotland has been cheated and deceived by Westminster Gov. Illegal secrecy and lies kept secret by the Official Secrets Act. Paying off the rest of the UK debt, that Scotland doesn’t borrow and spend. Westminster is deliberately running down the Oil/supply sector. (+the West). More Oil & Gas has to be imported, putting up the balance of payment deficit and putting up the debt. Leaving less monies to be invested in Renewables and essential services. The Tories have cut tax so much in the rest of the UK there is not enough money for essential services and they are starving vulnerable people. Elected to protect NHS and cut the debt, they have done neither. They have gone on another illegal crusade. A total diversion to the muck up of the economy.

      Vote SNP/SNP for Independence.

    311. john king says:

      Caz-m
      “And am still waitin on BBC Scotland showing me the video of the bombed oil fields ”

      Do you know how many diplomatic channels the RAF have to go through to get a wee shottie of cockpit video from the USAF? 😉

    312. IAB says:

      I remember his father’s speech on Iraq. I would never have anticipated Tony bringing up a red Tory. He sees his days ending and he would never live down crossing the floor.

      Corbyn has a membership mandate and his support will increase as the carnage starts.

      Hilary will run off and start the New New Labour Party with the other red Tories and get to be the leader.

    313. Ken500 says:

      More nonsense from the Tories about education. Add in the 20% of nature students – more students go to Uni (+college 2nd year – HNC/HND) and more get Uni education from poorer and deprived backgrounds. The 20% of mature studnts are conveniently left out of the equation. The Unionists were means testing student loans on household income. This meant students from working class background couldn’t get a full loan (£60 a week a- Halls are £100 a week) to go to Uni. More 16 year old are going into proper skilled apprenticeships, rather than going to Uni. That could be why bursary payments are down,

      The Proper ‘additional needs’ training was not put into the teacher training system by Unionists (inclusion) The changing demographics of older parenting.

      More Tory lies from incompetents that can’t add up or understand basic Maths. Scotland has one of the education system in the world.

      The Uni’s get enough cash. Educating the wealthy from elsewhere. As anyone who works in Uni Land Estate can tell. ‘So much money they don’t know what to do with’. Glass libraries and all. £1/2Billion.

      Put money into early learning and ‘additional needs’ training for teachers, which would help all pupils. Low cost for major benefits. Keep class sizes down.

    314. Ken500 says:

      Tony left £5Million and used tax avoidance scheme to pass it on to the privileged son. Giving the worst speech of a lifetime. Troughers. The Benns et al were no friends to Scotland.

    315. john king says:

      An interesting wee observation on that piece Nana linked to

      “A dividing line had been agreed in 1965 half way between the two countries, even though the UK’s shelf extended much further.
      Lord Rothschild, head of the central policy and review staff, said the UK had “given Norway the biggest Christmas present in history”.

      Seems like the UK is generous to everyone BUT Scotland but hey what have we got to do with it? The oil just happens to be in OUR territorial waters sa’ll.

    316. john king says:

      Capella@10.32

      Britoil building St Vincent street Glasgow
      I worked on that building during its construction,
      I remember two fully grown trees being planted in large planters in the atrium which were shipped in from Texas (no doubt to make the oil barons feel right at home y’all)at a cost of thousands of pounds each, I remember the workers complaining about such extravagance when it was quickly discovered that the only place in the building that was heated was…yes you’ve guessed it, the atrium, to protect the expensive trees meanwhile the rest of the building where guys like me were working? eh not so much, you could see your breath but the atrium was off limits in case we gave the Texan trees a chill.
      Imagine my joy when Thatcher sold off Britoil to BP,
      BASTARDS.

    317. Ken500 says:

      Unelected Rothschild, Thatcher’s pet adviser also devises the Poll Tax against elected advice, which ultimately brought her down. Stabbed in the back by her ‘colleagues’. Partners in crime. She left over 3Million unemployed, interest rates at 15%, the economy devasted and sowed the seeds for one of the biggest financial crashes in history. Deregulated Banking.

    318. Effijy says:

      The only rock I can latch on to is the main Western Politicians are all devious liars.

      If Turkey was indeed buying £Millions of ISIS oil reserves, shouldn’t Westminster be telling them that they have that Scottish type of oil?
      You know that special type that runs out, the type that cannot do anything for your economy, unless you give it all to a neighbour.

      For goodness sake, don’t the Syrians know that they are too small
      to have any chance of surviving on their own?

      The area’s first know Kingdom/civilization,Ebla,appears to have been founded around 3500 BC,

      Wouldn’t it be nice if civilization was to develop in Westminster some 5,500 years later!

    319. frogesque says:

      Very o/t

      Forth Road Bridge to be closed for a minimum of 24 hours due to more structural defects being found and problems being exacerbated by operating a contraflow on the north bound carriageway causing uneven loading.

      This will have serious consequences for East Central Scotland businesses and knockons further afield.

    320. Nana says:

      @Tackety Beets A couple more links for you.

      The first one is an old parliamentary 1978 debate. Interesting mention of a ‘brown book’? Where is it kept and who can view it.

      http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=1978-01-09a.1253.3&s=speaker%3A17975+speaker%3A17975+speaker%3A17975

      http://scottishjerk.com/scottish-oil-revenues/

    321. john king says:

      o/t
      Whats the betting Kezia Dugdale will “accuse” the Scottish government of causing the structural defects in the FRB by removing the bridge tolls? 10…9…8…7……

    322. john king says:

      Effijy @7.46
      🙂

    323. Nana says:

      Links

      CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank said a source told him “there’s intelligence that has been obtained by European security agencies that ISIS in Syria and Iraq is aiming to hit the United Kingdom next

      https://archive.is/gIFeK

      Arms manufacturers stocks soar after UK decision to join Syria bombing

      http://linkis.com/www.commonspace.scot/GDCk7

      ‘B*llocks’: Pro-war Labour MP responds to email from concerned constituent with utter contempt

      http://linkis.com/www.thecanary.co/201/9HPpA

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/operation-hydrant-300-celebs-politicians-included-list-2220-child-abuse-suspects-1531482

    324. frogesque says:

      @ John King

      Toll booths cause more damage due to vehicle acceleration and deceleration forces being transmitted to the structure. They should never be placed on bridges.

      Not that facts will stop Dugdale.

    325. scottieDog says:

      Was in a hotel last night and made mistake of switching on tv. BBC one was the horrendous sight of tank girl Davidson telling us wur doomed unless we bomb massey Fergusons and weddings in the middle east.

      Switch over to itv and the new neo-liberal insert into the labour party – Hilary Benn was all the rage.Yuck.
      Neither wonder I no longer watch TV.

      Good result in Oldham. Michael meacher was a good egg and money reformer to boot. Hope the next mp is of similar stock

    326. Tam Jardine says:

      Nana

      I see Foulkes is proposing an amendment to include creating a Scottish Senate to scrutinise Holyrood. Just a wee minor amendment there- creating a second chamber, alongside changing ‘to’ to ‘for’ or ‘may’ to ‘must’ or whatever.

      Think Foulkes may have an idea of someone perfect for the job as Senator. Shame for him he is proposing the positions are elected.

    327. Training Day says:

      @McEwan Hill

      Nope, I don’t confuse the Sunday Mail and the Daily Mail. Both Unionist outlets. Similarly I’m not daft enough to mistake Tom Gordon and Paul Hutcheon for proponents of Scottish self-determination.

      Stiiiilll waiting on that evidence of vote-rigging you’d uncovered in Argyll and Bute during the referendum by the way. It’ll be along any time now I’m sure..

    328. ahundredthidiot says:

      The canny Putin has just thrown some fuel on the fire of discontent in Turkey.

      If the consequences werent so deadly, this would be a great show.

      RT is what it is, just like BBC, but his speech on there is worth a read.

    329. Dorothy Devine says:

      I put my plea in yet again, boring I know ,that folk stay off the Herald comments – please leave it to the frothing unionists.

    330. Famous15 says:

      Have re-read Hilary Benn speech again and noted the strucure and emotive use of imagery related to events with popular conclusions in the public mind. He deliberately fights a different enemy.

      Dig out a copyof the book “Straight and crooked thinking” and his speech would illustrate it beautifully.

      Jeremy Corbyn has my sympathy. Scotland has my total sympathy ,being thirled to these crooks.

    331. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun put the daily toryboy boot in to Scottish democracy.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/04/hilary-benn-of-the-tribe-but-his-own-man

      Hilary’s a bloody star, so leave him alone meanies.

      “Alex Salmond, the former first minister of Scotland, said that Benn’s late father would have been “burling in his grave” had he heard the speech. Emily Benn, his niece, called on the SNP member to retract his “deeply offensive and simply untrue” remarks.

      The family were hurt by Salmond’s remarks because father and son were devoted to each other and were completely open about their deep disagreement when the young Benn voted in favour of the Iraq war in 2003. “People don’t understand about rows in the Labour party. They’re family rows; passionate,”

      Salmond hurt my feelings. Poor old Rancid. Quick somebody call them a wambulance. But at least these creeps actually slot some Scots democracy into their politics for a change, although usual whipping boys basically.

      Indy can’t come quick enough.

    332. Capella says:

      @ john king n’all
      What a wealth of knowledge and experience there is on this site. It’s like a “Think Tank”!

    333. Breeks says:

      Tony Benn. McCrone Report. Can you keep a secret? Tony Benn could.

      Google YouTube for Tony Benn, Sicko. Michael Moore interviews Tony Benn and his frank revelations are some of the most cynical and shallow admissions I have ever heard. Talk about a hypocrite. For such people to be held in high regard turns my stomach.

      Wisdom warns us not to visit the sins of the father upon the son, but personally, I find myself cynical about all political dynasties. Politics should be an individual’s vocation. At its best you get the Kennedy dynasty which peaked with JFK, but then you have Bush. At worst, you get Sarah Smith promoted way about her ability in the vile BBC which is riddled with Labourite infiltrators.

      Trust none of them. They are players in a game and see Scotland as their commodity to do with whatever they like. Politics will always have one end of its spectrum mired in skullduggery and deception, but at the moment, there is no counterbalance of decency and integrity in UK politics. It is lost, and fumbling in the dark. Scotland must cauterise the infection, or better yet, break free altogether.

    334. Macart says:

      I see the turd polishing continues in the Herald. Mr Gardham and the massed ranks faux outrage claiming that the SNP are using Syria to to spread division and fuel independence.

      FFS! Just when you think these people can’t get any lower, they somehow manage to find a corner of the barrel they haven’t explored yet.

      For Gardham’s information what part of the SNP want nothing to do with overseas wars, nuclear weapons or militarism in general escaped his and the rest of the media’s notice for the past decade at least? Its kinda why in an independent Scotland the military services would have been known as the Scottish DEFENCE Forces.

      Not only that, but of course they were going to vote against a bombing campaign which was long on rhetoric and short on actual fucking forward planning or information. So the Herald as usual fills in with puff faux outrage. Oh and when Mr Salmond comments on Mr Benn… Ohhhh the horror. How very dare he call out the current darling of the commons.
      Y’know the PRO bombing fella.

      We’re talking about military action with real civilian casualties which WILL be laid at our door on a campaign so ill considered it had to have been concocted by Baldric and these fuckers are the ones who are playing party politics, then projecting. Tory, Labour and Liberals with the aid of their media.

      Just to be clear. There will be no civilian blood on the hands of SNP MPs.

    335. heedtracker says:

      Tony Benn. McCrone Report. Can you keep a secret? Tony Benn could.

      English faux left now canonise Benn clan but if you were around early 80’s, when snatcher Thatcher was about to fall after one term, Benn was never off BBC tv, ranting away like commie loon, making Lab totally unelectable.

      Benn’s died penniless to dodge death duties on his personal fortune, his greatest UKOK legacy other than make Thatcherite toryboys look electable? Concorde.

      Concorde, super fast air travel for the super fast rich. How very Labour of him.

    336. heedtracker says:

      BBC 24 tv news with Farage explaining how corrupted postal voting is in UKOK land, how foreigners are only voting Lab. Satire is dead.

    337. Ken500 says:

      Sky canvassing like mad. Tom Watson tried to manipulate the Falkirk by-election. Illegally created Labour Party members to manipulated the candidate selection. In order to appoint the ex partner of (his ex flat mate) Len McCluskey as candidate. The Labour Mafia. All to no avail the SNP won the seat.

    338. I see Russia have just come out and said that the U.K action in Syria is illegal under international law. Of course it is, as anybody who reads U.N.S.C.R 2249 will realise.
      Presumably, following on from that, then that makes Cameron and his cohorts war criminals. However I fear we have as much chance of seeing them in the dock at The Hague as their predecessors, Blair and Brown.

    339. Anagach says:


      Alex Beveridge says:

      I see Russia have just come out and said that the U.K action in Syria is illegal under international law.

      Presumably, following on from that, then that makes Cameron and his cohorts war criminals.

      Worse, it means that if the Russians are acting with the blessing and approval of the regime and they shoot down an RAF jet then its all legal.

    340. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Training Day at 8.30

      Everybody knows Tom Gordon is a Labour hack. He writes in the Sunday Herald. And?
      Paul Hutcheon is just an attack dog with no evident political insight or agenda whatsoever.

      You obviously have no knowledge of the report you refer to. It was not produced by myself but by an organisation called DSF and does not refer to Argyll and Bute but to all of Scotland. Would you like a copy?

      The Herald and the Sunday Herald however are different papers with an entirely different editorial agenda

    341. sensibledave says:

      Alex Beveridgr 9.16

      Which part of Clause 5 of the Resolution are you struggling to understand?

    342. Capella says:

      @ Breeks
      I followed your advice and listened to the first video which came up ( 4 mins) and I agree with everything Tony Benn says in it. So I don’t understand your blanket condemnation of him. Can you enlighten?

      I agree about him being anti-independence and wanting Westminster to control the oil.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LnY-jy_cE0

    343. Training Day says:

      @McEwan Hill

      Is your claim that Tom Gordon has no editorial input to the SH?

      I’m not talking about the DSF report to which you refer. I’m well aware of that report. I’m talking about you coming on here post-referendum and banging on repeatedly about discrepancies and anomalies in the vote in Argyll and Bute, and how you would furnish ‘more’ on this to readers of Wings. Nothing ever materialised.

      Still, I’m a great believer in the maxim that a fool and his money are soon parted, so knock yourself out buying the Sunday Herald.

    344. Brian Powell says:

      While Deerin and Osborne hype the Northern Powerhouse, here is a different view from the LSE on where the money is really going.

    345. Anagach says:


      sensibledave says:

      Which part of Clause 5 of the Resolution are you struggling to understand?

      The bit where it says you can attack the government of a country, its armed forces, its allies, and violate its airspace against its wishes.

      Because operating without Syrian government approval opens the door to all those things.

    346. Capella says:

      Craig Murray has a good analysis of Oldham vote and collapse of Tory support.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/12/massive-collapse-in-tory-vote-share-in-oldham/

    347. caledonia says:

      Never thought I would say this but UKIP have shown the SNP how to deal with postal vote irregularities

      The SNP for me are far to soft at times when it comes to the press or even just things that Scottish labour have lied about
      They need to fight back at times even if it means labour/press/bbc bad

    348. ahundredthidiot says:

      Anagach@9:21

      Observant point, but I don’t think Putin is that stupid, besides, French and US jets already operating over Syria.

      No, my monies on his divide and conquer strategy which is in full swing re Turkey leadership. I foresee riots in the streets over there. Meanwhile, if I were Isis I think I would be, while no doubt earlier than planned, changing focus towards taking Saudi territory where they have considerable support.

    349. Nana says:

      @Tam Jardine

      I saw Foulkes tweeting last week about ‘scrutinising the scotgov’ Wondered what his amendment would be and now we know.

      Funny how he didn’t think there was a need for a scrutinising upper chamber when slab were in charge. I think every institution where labour have had influence should be scrutinised forensically.

    350. sensibledave @ 9.34 am.

      What part of “in compliance with international law” are you struggling to understand?

    351. sensibledave says:

      Anagach 9.47

      “Clause 5. Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures, in compliance with international law, in particular with the United Nations Charter, as well as international human rights, refugee and humanitarian law, on the territory under the control of ISIL also known as Da’esh, in Syria and Iraq, to redouble and coordinate their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts committed specifically by ISIL also known as Da’esh as well as ANF, and all other individuals, groups, undertakings, and entities associated with Al-Qaida, and other terrorist groups, as designated by the United Nations Security Council, and as may further be agreed by the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) and endorsed by the UN Security Council, pursuant to the statement of the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) of 14 November, and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

      ….. “Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures…. “ and “… and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

      Now, I’m no lawyer, and, I am guessing, neither are you – but I can read. The meaning and intent are unequivocal. You would have to be rdiculously contrary, or a Russian President, to interpret that to “take all necessary measures” and “eradicate the safe haven …” means “without using military power”.

      By all means maintain a stance against the bombing, but suggesting that the UK is now operating illegally, is just silly.

    352. Valerie says:

      Anagach@ 9.21

      I said much the same a few days ago. Anyone bar Russia, is in the country uninvited, and without the proper UN legality.

      I respect RAF, but even they must be bricking it, and may explain no footage of oil field bombing, which was defunct, and close to the Border.

      It’s a fact that since the downing of the Russian jet, and Putin moving his anti aircraft missiles in, most sorties suddenly stopped.

      Not that they were doing anything anyway, as yanks have now admitted, they rarely dropped bombs

    353. Brian Powell says:

      The Guardian touting Benn’s speech as some great game changer for Labour, but not as the warmongering pornography it was.

    354. Joemcg says:

      Farage this morning “postal voting is wide open to fraud” well, who would have thunk it?! 800,000 postal votes my arse.

    355. sensibledave says:

      Brian Powell 10.06

      Still going with the “warmongering” stuff Brian?

      Are you a pacifist coward who doesn’t care about anyone but himself?

    356. heedtracker says:

      ….. “Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures…. “ and “… and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

      Here in your Scotland region sensibledave, hard core toryboys use Syria to monster Scottish democracy.

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 5m5 minutes ago
      Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Kenny Farquharson
      “Isis need not fear the Scottish National Party.”

    357. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      “”In compliance with International law”.

      The UK and France are therefore uninvited by the recognised government of Syria and can be treated as invaders by the recognised Syrian government.

      Which bit of that do you not understand ?.

      Chapter 7 only,allows direct action in another country.

    358. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 0:25 am

      You wrote “Here in your Scotland region sensibledave, hard core toryboys use Syria to monster Scottish democracy. Isis need not fear the Scottish National Party.”

      Maybe some people do Heedy. Party membership is not a barrier to being an idiot.

      As you know, the point that I am making is that after all of the debate in the HoC, where all the issues and points were raised, then, generally speaking, it demonstrated the breadth of thought by members to arrive at their individual conclusions. Impassioned speeches from both points of view, across party lines.

      Anyone who subsequently comes to the conclusion that MPs were either warmongering, child killers – or they were pacifist cowards that do not care about the plight of others – is being grossly unfair to either side.

    359. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 December, 2015 at 10:22 am
      Brian Powell 10.06

      Still going with the “warmongering” stuff Brian?

      Are you a pacifist coward who doesn’t care about anyone but himself?

      Its much more about how effective the RAF is going to be dropping bombs on the blighters sensibledave?

      Iraq is a pretty good example of massive land invasion that caused massive civilians casualties but made no actual difference, as we can see today. It may well have made IS even more powerful and look at the millions of refugees pouring out of the whole region.

      All this war is good stuff does show is, how UKOK toryboy world tries to feed off of war, how toryboy media attempts to use war in all manner of horrific ways to attack political opposition at home.

      Which is why almost instantly, a hard right Times chancer/henchman in your Scotland region like Farquarson, leapt on it.

      What will take the wind out of UKOK neo fascism sensibledave, is last nights Oldham result and maybe war is not good, for toryboy world outside the south east of teamGB, no matter how hard BBC war propaganda works at it all.

    360. Brian Powell says:

      sensibledave

      LOL

    361. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 December, 2015 at 10:38 am
      heedtracker 0:25 am

      You wanted war sensibledave and you got one. Benn up there turned out to be just one more reprobate, flip floping around like only the worst kind of chancer political does with the most fundamental crisises facing humanity and yet here we are, UKOK press like rancid The Graun rushing in the protect their man o war, who twa weeks ago said no.

      Its not cowardice to say, this probably wont work, it almost never works and it almost certainly wont work in the middle east.

      Russia lost in Afghanistan much like America lost in Vietnam, US/UK lost in Iraq, you could do this all day but its always the same. Hard core rightwing warmongers of the west charge off to war, massive civilians casualties, failed states, gangster culture takes over, endless war on terror for the domestic politics at home.

      If we lived in a democracy, the whole of Blair/Brown cabinet would be in the dock at war crimes trials in the Hague. But here we go again.

    362. dunx says:

      @ Nana smith 8am
      Way back in the days before the internet thingy the UK govt.used to publish annual reports on income and expenditure in the “Blue Book” available from HMSO.

      The “Brown Book” was (is?) a supplementary publication from the same source dealing with oil and gas development in the UK. It was also available from the HMSO.
      Difficult to find references to it nowadays but I did find these old references.Circa 1980s

      https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yySY9lDdGqcC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=government+brown+book+annual+report&source=bl&ots=b4hsfBWkw8&sig=1l9FfjzNVD_gW-oM93JL-siooAo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjY1dCs98HJAhVCtBoKHfjEDJgQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=government%20brown%20book%20annual%20report&f=false

      And
      https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R_jpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=uk+government+brown+book+annual+report&source=bl&ots=EJ6zCryMgu&sig=w2LCDSVgITD8-YMPXzUYwFqiwFM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji1aGXgsLJAhVH5xoKHSbOBNgQ6AEIKzAG#v=onepage&q=uk%20government%20brown%20book%20annual%20report&f=false

      I would probably have been better searching under ” How to bury the McCrone report”

    363. Gregor MacKintosh says:

      My view is that many labour mps used this vote on war cynically to undermine Corbyn, Benn included.

      What evidence was produced, 70 000 non jihadists, seven foiled attacks we can’t talk about and we must stand by France. As evidence goes, this ammounts to zero.

      I don’t think this was a difficult vote, I would sum my NO stance as:

      – not poking a hornets nest,

      – being able to be seen as a neutral and able to talk to all sides to brocker peace,

      – saving money to spend on NHS / schools,

      – not killing innocent people by mistake

      – not giving additional reason for weak minded and maginalised to join IS

      In sum not spend scarce resources to do the wrong thing that will make me a target!

      Roll back the clocks Benn and other labour mps would have had other people’s sons and daughtess fight in Vietnam – for what?

    364. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 10:55 am

      “You wanted war sensibledave and you got one.”

      You stupid man!

      No Heedy, I dont want war. Sadly, there are those that have chosen to have a war with me – and you.

      They want me dead, they want my family and friends dead, Heedy. They want you dead. They want you and your family and friends dead Heedy. They want all infidels dead and they want all Muslims that don’t agree with their interpretation of Islam, dead, Heedy.

      They have chosen a war with me and you Heedy.

    365. nodrog says:

      Nana says:
      3 December, 2015 at 11:50 pm
      @nodrog

      Are sure that is a full list Nana? I could not find any SNP on there – Aye Right.

      Thanks for that.

    366. Bob Mack says:

      Sensibledave.

      Two years ago France tried to obtain a Chapter 7 resolution against Syria and Assad in the UN. It was refused obviously due to a Russian veto. However,several other members pointed out it was an attempt to destabilise a legal government,and therefore was a dubious thing to do.

      The latest resolution Chapter5 had agreement of Russia because it could limit the intervention from participating States,especially around military action directly in Syria.

      UK and France now want to bend the resolution to give them flexibility where none was intended.

      Be in no doubt.Russia will defend Assad with everything they have, and it is we who are taking the risk.

      Syrias latest announcement that we are not invited to their country is the blue touchpaper.Let us hope we are smart enough to heed that warning,otherwise ISIS may seem a better option.

    367. heedtracker says:

      They have chosen a war with me and you Heedy.

      That’s very mad even for a hard core toryboy Britnat like you sensibledave. And pretty much exact same insane bloodlust for war reasoning that our hideous right in the US and here farted out after 9/11.

      Why didn’t Bomber Bliar, Crash Gordon and neo fascist maniacs like Bush, Cheney etc in Washington not just spend the same resources going after Bin Laden sensibledave, instead of causing the endless horror we have to live with a decade on?

      Look what its done, lets do it again. Very very insane.

    368. ArtyHetty says:

      Re;Nana@8.16am

      Had a quick look at the ‘amendments’ to the Scotland bill. Is this actually going forward to committee regards a senate at Holyrood? Who would pay for it? If it is a real proposal, what qualifications or how much cash would a candidate needs to put themselves forward? Or would ukok choose the candidates?

      O/T

      I looked up ‘toe the line’ and it’s correct, not tow, though often confused, doh!

      Regards war mongers, last night I thought, why are these leaders, men, not sitting round a nice big table, negotiating, and discussing how to sort out the huge mess in the middle East? Then I thought, where are the women in all this, do they want war and killing? I don’t mean the right wing protected politician ones. Enough said.

    369. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      sensibledave at 11.11

      “No Heedy, I dont want war. Sadly, there are those that have chosen to have a war with me – and you.”

      So Isis is bombing us? Bishopbriggs is it, or Largs? Because I hadn’t noticed.
      Surely they are too busy most of the time trying to do what we funded them to do – destablise Syria and remove the US’s enemy President Assad. That worked out well.

      Your posts have steadily graduated from the silly to the laughable to the to the downright stupidly offensive

    370. Ruby says:

      ‘A backbencher made a formal complaint to Labour’s chief whip over Mr Corbyn’s “despicable and deliberate” threats over the Syria vote which he said will lead to “personal violence” against MPs.

      Labour Unity, a hard-left organisation linked to the party leader, released a “("Tractor" - Ed) list” of backbenchers who should be targeted for de-selection.

      Corbyn and his allies have been directly accused of aiding the intimidation of Labour MPs by leaking the names of MPs preparing to back the government in recent days.

      “He’s not just making us a target for Momentum and Stop The War, he’s making us a target for home-grown jihadists,” a shadow cabinet minister said. In 2010, the Labour MP Stephen Timms was stabbed by Roshonara Choudhry, a young Islamist student, during a constituency surgery.’

      This is interesting. If Labour MPs who backed the government are a target for home-grown jihadists surely it must follow that the whole country is at risk.

      The names of Labour MPs who backed the government are available to all on the Gov website why would Corbyn need to leak the names.

      Anyone get a feeling of deja-vu reading the above? Will Corbyn be asked to reign in his Corbonats? Corbonats named and shamed in Daily Record.
      Hilary Benn calls off tour after being hit by a Corbonat egg.

    371. Capella says:

      @ dunx
      Thanks for these links. Interesting read and I expect the Brown Books will have been deep sixed long ago.
      There’s a Wilfred Owen anti-war poem in the first link (although they have changed the words to a more acceptable image). Dulce et Decorum Est.
      http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html#READINGS

      Very apt today but in UK every day is probably a war day. I read somewhere there was only one year in he whole of the 20th century when we weren’t at war with someone.

    372. Ruby says:

      I really wish I were as popular on this website as ‘sensibledave’

      The man gets loads of attention!

    373. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 11:29 am

      “That’s very mad even for a hard core toryboy Britnat like you sensibledave. And pretty much exact same insane bloodlust for war reasoning that our hideous right in the US and here farted out after 9/11.”

      Why don’t you cut the useless waffle out for once Heedy and actually address my comment? Let me try and make it simple for you. Do you agree or disagree with my paragraph. I wrote:

      “They want me dead, they want my family and friends dead, Heedy. They want you dead. They want you and your family and friends dead Heedy. They want all infidels dead and they want all Muslims that don’t agree with their interpretation of Islam, dead, Heedy. They have chosen a war with me and you Heedy.”

      One word answer please Heedy. Agree or disagree?

    374. Ruby says:

      Something very strange about the whole Hilary Benn thing!

      His speech was nothing special!
      The applause was pretty strange! Was it planned in advance.

      Should Hilary Benn & his family be less worried about Alex Salmond’s ‘birlin in the grave’ comment and be more worried about Hilary Benn & his family being a target of ‘home-grown jihadists’?

    375. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 11.39

      “I really wish I were as popular on this website as ‘sensibledave’”

      … maybe you should try coming up with intelligent arguments -rather than just shouting insults at anyone who happens to have a different point of view to you.

    376. heedtracker says:

      Ruby says:
      4 December, 2015 at 11:39 am
      I really wish I were as popular on this website as ‘sensibledave’

      The man gets loads of attention!

      War mongers always do Ruby. Its why they do it. If we’re not all terrorised by their war, digging for victory, backing our boys, bomb em back to the stone age, kill em all etc, we’re not the right sort, disloyal, excluded, misguided, deluded, not British, or read sensibledave’s war rage.

      UK.gov is currently making every public sector employee at every level watch out for radicals in the UK, via a training video. War is good.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06qmpr0

      Changing Jihadi minds, apparently. Personally Id focus more on changing the red/blue toryboys of Westminster’s minds but here we go again, and again

    377. Lochside says:

      Good on you Petra!..Direct action, Civil Disobedience, organised non-payment etc. is something I practised back in the the Thatcherite days…inspired by Tommy Sheridan.

      He may be toxic to many these days, but we sadly lack someone like him to get Scots mobilised again against the real ‘fascists’: the Tories and their Unionist lackeys.

      The ‘Yes’ campaigned should have continued as a mobiliser against Operation Fear mk2. We are being not only bombarded by media lies and deletions but legislation and economic vandalism is ongoing.

      Meanwhile we mump and moan on here instead of getting out there and challenging these bastards at every turn!

    378. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ruby

      Agree completely. I’m sure the ridiculous plaudits for Benn’s speech were coordinated well before the debate.

      I believe his speech has actually backfired pretty badly with the core Labour support and any intelligent observer
      It whole exercise was patently a pre ordained spin

    379. sensibledave says:

      heedy 11.50

      … I note that you haven’t responded heedy.

      I wrote “They want me dead, they want my family and friends dead, Heedy. They want you dead. They want you and your family and friends dead Heedy. They want all infidels dead and they want all Muslims that don’t agree with their interpretation of Islam, dead, Heedy. They have chosen a war with me and you Heedy.”

      One word answer please Heedy. Agree or disagree?

    380. I’m not sure if I am correct here, but wasn’t Cameron, as a courtesy made aware of what was in Benn’s speech before he delivered on the floor of the house of Commons.

      I don’t know just asking!

    381. cirsium says:

      Well said, Bob Mack, 11.24. Hopefully, it is not blue touch paper but a marker. The Syrian Government can now submit a formal complaint to the UN. The UK is yet again in breach of international law and the UN Charter.

      I came across this comment on a US site. I think that it applies to the UK as well.

      “The reason the U.S. has avoided bombing the oil trucks is that overthrowing Assad is the main priority of the U.S. government. Our goverment does nothing to degrade ISIS’ capacity to fight the Assad regime. We are effectively allied with ISIS and al-Qaeda in Syria in overthrowing the regime.

      We bomb electric power stations in Syria, but leave oil infrastructure alone. Our government started bombing ISIS 14 months ago and didn’t bomb a single oil truck. What, pray tell, prevented the U.S. from dropping the same leaflets and then bombing the trucks 14 months ago? Nothing. As President Obama stated, our goal was never to eradicate ISIS. Instead, Obama said he would “contain” ISIS. This means allowing ISIS to continue as an effective fighting force against Assad.
      The evidence we are allowing ISIS and al-Qaeda in Syria to be effective fighting forces against the Assad regime is overwhelming.

      We don’t do anything to stop oil smuggling. We don’t do anything to prevent allies from arming and supplying ISIS. Frankly, our “war” against ISIS is little more than a propaganda campaign aimed at the American people. It’s a phony war.”

    382. Valerie says:

      Awww hang your heads, folks, Kinnock jnr is blubbing to Joco about getting called warmongers.

      What a bunch of pussies.

    383. David McDowell says:

      Hilary Benn, typical politician: says one thing in public and another thing in public.

    384. heedtracker says:

      They have chosen a war with me and you Heedy.”

      One word answer please Heedy. Agree or disagree?

      There is no one word sensibledave, as you know. Also, they have chosen a war with me and you is deeply creepy, again even for UKOK tubthumpers like you.

      Ever heard of empathy sensible? It is a thing and it always seems to missing from toryboy world rule Britannia mindset.

      Or how would you feel if London came under the same cruise missile assault, Baghdad style, RAF guided bombing, land troop and tank invasion that several Iraqi cities have and all of it based on one staggering horrifying lie from staggering horrifying liars like Bush, Bliar and Brown? The whole of London in ruins, south east a gangster warlord hell on earth, spreading out across teamGB, mass murder, mass rape, slavery, endless terror from repeated bombings out of the blue via fine chaps like Cammers and that giant red tory a hole Benn up there?

      Never happen, we’re rule Britannia eh sensibledave?

    385. Dorothy Devine says:

      Please stop responding to the cretin.

    386. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 12.27

      You wrote: “There is no one word sensibledave, as you know. Also, they have chosen a war with me and you is deeply creepy, again even for UKOK tubthumpers like you.”

      Ah, I see your problem Heedy. This is new information for you!

      You didnt understand what they are saying. At least you have moved to “deeply creepy”. Im not sure that “deeply creepy” is quite there yet – but keep going, you might get there in the end.

    387. heedtracker says:

      There’s your answer sensibledave. A UKOK toryboy, one of Murdoch goon’s, agrees with everything your selling here too.

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 41m41 minutes ago
      Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Kenny Farquharson
      “The SNP has demonstrated to the world that we Scots cannot be relied upon in an international crisis.”

    388. Anagach says:

      not-so-sensible-Dave
      You would have to be rdiculously contrary, or a Russian President, to interpret that to “take all necessary measures” and “eradicate the safe haven …” means “without using military power”.

      All necessary means, in compliance with international law.

      That means you are not allowed to bomb Moscow or Damascus or Paris and claim you are just taking all necessary measures against ISIL.

      And it means that if you operate military action inside a country uninvited they, and their allies, are entitled to defend themselves.

    389. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 December, 2015 at 1:18 pm
      Heedy 12.27

      Like I said sensibledave, pig shagger Cammers has given you all your toryboy war.

      But just out of interest sensibledave, what’s the UKOK toryboy world end game here, here being I don’t know, peace in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, southern Turkey etc?

      We have one of the world great state propaganda machines in BBC mass brainwashing, currently explaining why UKOK war is good but noone in that ghastly outfit says what the outcome will be.

      I listened to Victoria Derbyshire’s this morn and her ridiculous explanation of how latest RAF bombers have now started their campaign to make IS bankrupt, starve them of oil revenues etc, takes a year, she says, but our boys will win through in the end. Vote Tory

    390. Germany decide to honour pledge of support to France,

      `German lawmakers on Friday overwhelming approved a broad non-combat mission to aid the coalition fight against Daesh, including reconnaissance jets and a frigate, following a call from France for support following last month’s attacks in Paris.`

      I do not think Hilary Benn`s manic call for war would have gone down well in Germany,

      they still have memories of another certain warmonger`s speeches promoting war.

    391. Ruby says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 December, 2015 at 11:44 am
      Ruby 11.39

      “I really wish I were as popular on this website as ‘sensibledave’”

      … maybe you should try coming up with intelligent arguments -rather than just shouting insults at anyone who happens to have a different point of view to you.

      Ruby Replies

      I don’t come here to argue! What would be the point in having an argument with you?

      If I really wanted a lot of ‘attention’ on this website I would just do what you do. Flamebaiting is not all that difficult.

      I would be good if Stu could set up a thread especially for flamebaiters & those who can’t resist responding.

    392. Ruby says:

      Actually I’ve changed my mind it wouldn’t be good if Stu set up a flame-baiters thread what would be good is if people who want to argue back and forward all day long moved over to The Herald or The Scotsman where arguing is the norm.

      Why turn Wings into just another forum like The Scotsman?

    393. heedtracker says:

      So ask a toryboy what the outcome of their all new smart bomb is, and they disappear.

      Pig shagger Cammers says dont worry, its only for two years tops, so chillax peeps. Your house prices wont be affected

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/04/killed-after-posing-for-pictures-the-five-year-old-victim-of-russias-airstrikes-on-syria

      Raghat died in new holiday clothes and a bead bracelet bought by a favourite aunt, Rasmea, who studied computer engineering before the war. “We were shopping, came home, did some pictures, and then – the end,” she says. She still wears her niece’s bracelet, faded now to dull browns and blacks. Her Facebook profile picture is a montage of images of Raghat, both radiant in life and mutilated in death.

      “Why are the Russians bombing Syrian people, what have we done wrong?” she says, on the verge of tears. “We want people to see what is happening in Syria, please tell the world.”

      Kill em all, and bring our boys on home.

      Rule Britannia.

    394. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I suppose a ‘corbonat’, who swings both ways (left and right simultaneously) and fizzes with indignation, would be a bicorbonat of soda…

      I’ll git mah coat…

    395. Andrew McLean says:

      Re Emily Benn, Hilary’s niece and Tony’s granddaughter, has demanded an apology, because burling in his grave is deeply offensive, Nowhere do I read that she is a Labour councillor in London, must be a pretty sensitive bunch those Londoners.

      But great deflection Emily, make it all about you’re offence, good girl, bad SNP, God they will be bombing civilians next, oups that’s us with our victory bombs.
      so as civilian casualty’s mount in this new war, lets all sing to Emily,

      So when you are offended Emily smile ‘It’s all about you’
      It’s all about you’ Emily.’It’s all about you’
      It’s all about you’ Emmmillly.

      This is what a real orator sounds like, and he wasn’t stabbing anyone in the front, like good old boy Hilary.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41xJiEPuAhg

    396. cirsium says:

      O/T interview of a retired American General in Der Spiegel in which he says how dumb it was to bring down Saddam Hussein and Ghaddafi

      http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/former-us-intelligence-chief-discusses-development-of-is-a-1065131.html

    397. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “The Herald and the Sunday Herald however are different papers with an entirely different editorial agenda”

      Yes, to fool the more gullible like yourself.

      They and the National have the same unionist owners who most definitely don’t want Scotland to be independent.

      The National and The Sunday Herald are the cash cows that feed the anti-independence and anti-SNP venom of The Herald.

    398. Barbara McKenzie says:

      Anagach

      ‘Worse, it means that if the Russians are acting with the blessing and approval of the regime and they shoot down an RAF jet then its all legal.’

      Why is that worse?

    399. ben madigan says:

      @crazycat who said:
      4 December, 2015 at 1:11 am
      “If Hilary wants a title, he’ll have to get his own, and it won’t be hereditary”.

      sorry for the late reply crazycat – been hard at work. There’s no rest for the wicked!!!

      Who says Hilary’s not angling for a title? hereditary or not? I confess I knew nothing about the ins and out of who inherits what title, so thank you for the info.

      In any case it was only one of many hypotheses I (and others) put forward to account for the motivation(s) underlying his speech.

      I still think he spoke with the voice of an upper class, ruling class Englishman, Which he is. And which is why the Tories and press loved his speech.

      This type of person has never, and does not, understand the feelings and aspirations of Scottish, Irish and some Welsh and Cornish inhabitants of the UK because they cannot see anything wrong in what they do and they cannot see anything wrong with a majority drowning the voices of others.

      And I still think this vote for war has to do with the UK “strutting the world stage” “punching above its weight” “having a seat at the top table” and “doing business”

      it has nothing whatsoever to do about protecting British or Syrian citizens

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/no-terrorist-sympathizers-in-westminster/

    400. Will Podmore says:

      There are warmongers everywhere. parliament disgraced itself by its vote for killing. So long as we allow capitalism to exist, it will inflict wars.



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