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Return of the vortex

Posted on December 08, 2016 by

Particularly alert readers may recall a phenomenon we haven’t covered much recently, whereby aspects of politics magically transform as they cross the border between Scotland and the rest of the UK. But this week we’ve had a sighting in a new area.


Sounds pretty bad for poor old Wales.

The results weren’t so great for Scotland either, which slipped slightly since 2013 and now ranks fractionally below England and Northern Ireland in three key disciplines.


As you’d expect, Labour were scathing about the Scottish results.


As, of course, they’ve been about the Labour-run Welsh system, which has delivered the worst results in the UK for more than a decade.


Wait, we must have read something wrong.

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    1. 08 12 16 15:56

      Return of the vortex | speymouth

    173 to “Return of the vortex”

    1. Andrew McLean says:


      The gift that keeps on giving.

    2. Marcia says:

      I don’t think we should adopt the Welsh Labour model.

    3. shug says:

      I noticed on the UK news that Scotland was reported as pretty much the same as previous reports but on BBC Scotland it was reported as the worst ever results.

      Calling Kaye calling Kaye – we don’t believe a word you say any more – you could not report the truth if your life depended on it, you are a joke

      It is a measure of BBC Scotland that they are the only ones not embarrassed by the quality and accuracy of their reporting

    4. Macart says:

      That young lady needs a hobby. Preferably a new job someplace less publicly embarrassing, but a hobby would do.

    5. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I see that Dippity Dug puff for the Welsh education system was a Press Asscoation story.

      Since I would describe Katrine Bussey, PA’s Holyrood Honcho as the Kezie Dugdale of the Scottish MSM (Useless, Clueless and promotd way above her ability), I am not surprised that story saw the light of day.

      I worked with Bussey – a nasty piece of work.

    6. Bob Mack says:

      Well, if you count like Kezia ,it does.

    7. The Welsh will soon be outnumbered by English settlers, if not already.

    8. Robert Roddick says:

      Clearly Kezia is needing remedial help with reading and interpretation.

    9. heedtracker says:

      A lot can happen in 14 months, UKOK wise. Year before, 5 June 2014 at 9:59pm
      Scotland ‘most highly educated country in Europe’
      Scotland is the most highly educated country in Europe and among the best-educated in the world, according to new figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

      Said STV.

    10. winifred mccartney says:

      Kez is better when she is off somewhere delivering ideas or helping deliver a defeat at least then labour in Scotland is silent and not making a compete ass of itself – she now thinks she can save the whole country not just scotland – just like Big Gordie when he said about the banks he had saved the ‘world’ – deluded I thought we now had the most powerful devolved country in the world and the nearest thing to home rule you could have. So how can labour give us any more – though that was just for the front page of a rag and disappeared as soon as anything got near signing up for.

      Am I right in thinking that the pisa tests were being done during all the disruption with schools closing and that in other countries participants are coached to within an inch of their lives but in UK we do not select for the tests. I would never like to see young people put under such stress that they would harm themselves like they do in China. Sort out disruptive behaviour in classrooms and if we demand inclusion we have to provide the required support. No teacher can deal with the normally wide range of abilities in a class along with pupils who are disruptive,have behavoral problems or have special needs or serious learning difficulties. This all comes down to staffing and costs. Many children were put into mainstream education so that schools for pupils with special needs could be closed and parents were misinformed and sometimes even lied to about the support their child would receive. The required support never materialised or was spread so thinly that even with support the child could not cope with the curriculum or the social aspects of school.

    11. Cath Maguire says:

      I’m sick to the back teeth of this constant attack on the Scottish education system. I’ve just read a Lesley Riddoch piece where she uses the Pisa tests to decry the Scottish system and yet carries on to lambaste testing in Scottish schools.

      She gets one thing right when she points to poverty having a major impact on children’s attainment but other than that it’s annoying in the extreme.

      I spent too long the other day actually finding out what Pisa is, who’s behind it, what criteria they use etc etc. I found this report from the USA with unravels it, basically they are comparing apples with oranges. It shows it to be basically meaningless and at the same time dangerous if governments set too much store in the results.

    12. Clootie says:

      When you look at the actual scores across the UK the attack on the Scottish government is farsical.

      I am sure no one wants to teach to pass the Pisa test. Therefore the only way to use these scores is in regard to long term trending.

      It is unfortunate so few are interested in our children’s education and so many focused on a SNPbad story.

    13. Jimbo says:

      I always get this feeling that Kezia Dugdale lives in a dreamtime of how she imagines things are, or how she’d like them to be – as opposed to how things are in the real world.

    14. Nuada says:

      No, you didn’t read anything wrong. It’s just that everyone is now stupider having heard Iain Gray speak.

    15. George S Gordon says:

      The Times Educational Supplement (TES) is pretty scathing about both the effects and accuracy of the OECD/PISA. For example, the OECD has admitted that the UK rankings for maths and reading each carry an error of 8 places, and 5 places in science.

      Of course, the Scottish Government can’t be seen to rubbish PISA, but John Swinney has seen the TES piece and will take their comments into account.

      The TES article is free at

      PISA themselves have said “no trend data can be reported for the United Kingdom for PISA 2000, PISA 2003
      and PISA 2006” because the UK responses did not meet PISA standards. So statements about a decline over time are suspect.

      I also suspect PISA is like an unweighted poll, taking no account of biases in their samples. In fact, it is difficult to see what the necessary factors should be, and how the weightings could be estimated.

      PISA results are based on samples about half that of the Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy (SSLN). The SSLN results are almost certainly more accurate, and were already known to all at Holyrood.

    16. jimnarlene says:

      Dunce’s hat for Dugdale.

    17. Paula Rose says:

      This article also shows many of the shortcomings of PISA –

    18. blackhack says:

      I actually feel sorry for the poor wee lassie….Canny coont.

    19. manandboy says:

      Teresa’s none too clever either.

      “It’s important that we don’t leave it for too long, otherwise people will lose faith in their politicians, they’ll think that we’re trying to pull the wool over their eyes,” the prime minister told the FT.

    20. MajorBloodnok says:

      Speaking of dodgy statistics, did you know that six out of seven dwarves aren’t Happy?

    21. Stoker says:

      A wee blast from the past (not so long ago).

      “The UK is now a pointless entity, existing solely to protect entrenched privilege and continue the transference of the country’s resources to a global elite. For most citizens it’s a failed state, which cannot guarantee social progress, a decent education, the opportunity for useful employment or a debt-free life. With Scotland cast in the role as the conscience of Britain,”

      Labour risks failing the English – just like it did the Scottish

      Our children’s education is 100% safer in the hands of the SNP.
      I trust the SNP to get it right, this is a test they’ll pass.
      I wouldn’t trust the LibLabCons to put my rubbish out.

    22. Dan Huil says:

      The bbc laps up anything which puts Scotland in a bad light – whether invention or not.

      Just in case you haven’t see it:

    23. Socrates MacSporran says:

      As a “Baby Boomer”, I went through the final days of the traditional Scottish ducation system.

      I went to the local primary, I did well in my Qualifying and went into the A stream at the local Senior Secondary.

      My primary classmates who didn’t do as well in the dreaded “Qualy” still got a good education – a couple, who left school at 15, have since been able to go on into professions; others, who got NCB aprenticeships, benefitted from going to the local technical college and enjoyed good careers.

      I was one of the first to sit O grades, which replaced Lowers, with little difference to the curriculum.

      Then, the Labour Party in the late 1960s, brought in comprehensive education and it all went to pot.

      Every so-called “advance” in education since has seemingly brought a reduction in stanards and so-forth, things have, apparently, been going downhill for years.

      But, numbers going into higher education are apparently going up, poorer students, for whom in my days getting to university demanded serious sacrifices of parents etc, now find the path into higher education easier.

      We should not be surprised, therefore, to hear Krankie Tank Commander and Dippity Dug criticising the fact the SNP government has, in a decade, been unable to undo the damge 30-plus years of Labour and Tory meddling and bad ideas did to Scottish education.

    24. Sinky says:

      George S Gordon says @ 4.04

      A good bit of research and perhaps someone should point this out to Dr Scott Arthur and other unionist scribblers who are going orgasmic over this.

    25. Stoker says:

      When the FUDs knock our SNHS they knock all SNHS employees.
      When the FUDs knock our education they knock all teaching staff.
      When the FUDs knock….Ach….well….you get the picture….

      Keep it up, FUDs, nothing like making a rod for your own backs.

    26. velofello says:

      The article referenced above by Cath Maguire does pretty well advise against embracing PISA as a valid assessment. And yes, poverty is a factor. Interesting section on China, education in Shangai, and the reason behind aircraft tail stabiliser parts made in China for the USA corporations.

    27. Chic McGregor says:


      Thnx for link. Very good snapshot by Mr Welsh,

    28. Thepnr says:

      O/T Looks pretty obvious now what the Scottish Governments plan is for Brexit and that is EFTA/EEA membership.

      Alex Salmond has been in Oslo since Tuesday and just now the Courier published a short video of him online.

      “Scotland should set up its own deal with countries including Norway after the UK leaves the European Union, Alex Salmond has claimed.

      The former First Minister highlighted the European Free Trade Association, of which the UK was a founding member before leaving to join the European Communities in 1973.”

      Full link included due to the video not being available on

    29. Jimmy Crawford says:

      If only our Kezias da was a teacher…

    30. heedtracker says:

      #Kevrage piles to defend/attack poor Kezia. It looks like a Conservative’s cry from the UKOK heart. If you’re like Kevrage, handsome, clever and rich, why change anything etc?

      Blue and red planet toryboy has always ensured that teamGB has many millions of slave wage earners, with a few million terrorised on the dole, from which charmers such as Walmart, Tesco, Sports Direct feed off of for spectacular dosh, which they then squirrel away in teamGB tax havens.

      Poorly educated slave wage work forces are a staple resource for UK big business and its unlikely to change much really. Its one of Crash Gordo’s greatest legacies too.

      Repeat after me children…

      “New Labour is my greatest legacy,” St Snatcher Thatcher.

      SNP bad/Rule Britannia, sayeth BBC vote SLab Scotland.

    31. Andy-B says:

      Dugdale must remain Labour branch manager in Scotland, her gaffs alone, are worth many votes to the SNP.

      Go on Kezia, open your mouth again.

    32. Frann Leach says:

      She maybe thinks it’s like one of those card games where the lowest score wins

    33. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Frann Leach @ 5.14pm

      Or, to put it another way – Dippity Dug is Pointless.

    34. Ken500 says:

      Before the 11+ was abolished. 10% of the population went to University. Now 50% go to University.
      25% from school. 25% mature students. Reciprocal EU students, foreign students who pay the full cost and the wealthy from elsewhere in the UK, paying fees but still getting subsidised courses. College places HNC/HND. Apprenticeships. Tradespeople with skills can earn a comfortable living.

      Life long learning.

      The UK Gov has cut funding for Education/NHS. Cut the Block Grant now by £3Billion a year. Despite Scotland still raising £54Billion in taxes (same as with £4Billion of Oil revenues) Oil & Gas revenues cut by £Billions because of Westminster tax regime. Taxing the Oil & Gas sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs in Scotland. Tax is now 40% since Jan 2016.

    35. ben madigan says:

      here’s a link to the London calling film on BBc Bias and propaganda – which is apparently still continuing on relentlessly. Enjoy (the wee ginger dug makes some great contributions!!) and share the lessons!!!

    36. Ken500 says:

      China doesn’t have enough Universities. That is why they go overseas. Major competition. Poorer people do not have the same access to University. It happens in the Middle East. Only the privilege get higher University (paid) education.

      Higher Education is a big money earner in the UK from foreign students.

    37. Habib Steele says:

      Kezia complains about cuts to school budgets. Where do the funds for school budgets come from? Have funds for Scotland’s budget been cut over the years? How can we increase those funds? Oh, we can’t A government in another country with the vast majority of MPsfrom that other country and less than 60 from Scotland

    38. yesindyref2 says:

      Lord Neuberger said: “It bears repeating we are not being asked to overturn the result of the EU referendum.

      The ultimate question in this case concerns the process by which that result can lawfully be brought into effect.

      As we have heard, that question raises important constitutional issues and we will now take time to ensure the many arguments presented to us orally and in writing are given full and proper consideration.”

      Sounds good to me, for the result to be lawfully brought into effect would require consideration of whether Sewel is statutory or not – if UK Gov lose the appeal.

      And if UK Gov wins, then what about this royal prerogative?

    39. Dr Jim says:

      What we need is a red white and blue solution

      (ducks really quick to avoid flying objects)

    40. Andrew McLean says:

      This politics thin is bloody difficult, I thought I was clued up, but I was reading the revs twitter and they are talking about some bloke called Corbyn? Who is he E.D?

    41. Vestas says:

      Roll on May when nobody but BBC Scotland will care what anyone in SLAB has to say.

      I bet the secure document disposal companies in Glasgow will be on triple time come April.

      Tick tock you red tory bastards. Tick tock.

    42. schrodingers cat says:

      Thepnr says:
      8 December, 2016 at 5:01 pm

      O/T Looks pretty obvious now what the Scottish Governments plan is for Brexit and that is EFTA/EEA membership.

      I think this is the obvious solution, the 62% remain vote doesnt give nicola a mandate to negotiate a position of further integration into the eu for scotland, nor does it give her a mandate to negotiate a different deal for scotland. Since scotland retaining all of the opt outs it presently enjoys as part of the uk is unlikely, it looks like the status quo wont be an option either.
      that leaves only one real option for her and that is some kind of deal which is Less than the status quo. It would be possible to negotiate a status quo deal minus the opt outs, eg the uk rebate etc, but such negotiations, and the clarity that would accompany them, could only happen with the eu after a yes vote in indyref2. Selecting an existing option, ei an EFTA/EEA membership, clarifies exactly the position an indy scotland during the indyref2 campaign.

      it will also appeal to any of the yes leavers, especially the fishermen.

      the idea of an euref2 proposed by stu a couple of days ago, could be seen, not as a sop to the leavers, but to the remainers

    43. Stoker says:

      Today’s top 10 text stories from BBC Misreporting Scotland at 6pm:

      1: MP describes being raped as a teenager
      2: Sturgeon: ‘No excuses’ for school scores
      3: Face of Robert the Bruce revealed
      4: Workers locked out as contract ends
      5: Abuse inquiry ‘will not include football’
      6: Complaint over snake death investigated
      7: Holyrood ‘must be respected’ over Brexit
      8: Man gave ‘thumbs up’ before tree death
      9: Ex-football coach faces child sex charge
      10: Driver admits causing hard shoulder death

      Call me old fashioned but i would say 150 workers losing their jobs (No4) should be the top story. Quite a lot of job losses since the ‘No’ vote in 2014 and they’re trying to play it down.
      The BBC repeatedly fails to serve Scotland’s people adequately.

    44. Ian McCubbin says:

      Please please Slab and Labour central keep Dugdale as branch secretary. She is a great advert for SNP with all her gaffs.
      On a serious note the C of E was started by Labour activist educationalists and SNP ran with it as the education quangos were full of Labour card carrying folk.
      I know I was in education as a PT Guidance trying to suggest alternatives back in early 2000s.
      It was all about go with a new idea climb the greasy pole fir those ones. Credibility and really getting it right dor every child was never in the equation or practice. SNP inherited a broken system they have done well to make some improvement.

    45. Lenny Hartley says:

      Someone posted today (sorry can’t find it) that the never thought they would hear the Loch Ness Monster being mentioned in the Supreme Court. I’ll match that by saying I never thought I would ever hear the head of MI6 quoting verbatim Calgacus , leader of the Picts 🙂

    46. mike cassidy says:

      George S Gordon 4.04

      “..Of course, the Scottish Government can’t be seen to rubbish PISA..”

      Why not?

    47. Les Wilson says:

      I used to sort of suffer Dugdale, it always used to make me think,well she is there, doing us more good than harm, poor wee lass.

      I do not suffer her now, she is more and more dogmatic Unionist, she has had training now, to be just that.
      No thoughts for her own country.
      Perhaps she is thinking of ermine is she can turn things around.
      Think it can’t happen, remember Mone!

      On another subject, I notice the word ” populist “, which according to elites across the world, are saying it is a bad thing. If you think politicians are to serve their people, then are they not “Populist ” according to the votes they gather.

      I can only assume the Elites hate the word, but only when others are popular,not themselves.
      For me,they are scared that their iron grip on populations are in danger.
      Well hell mend them, if they cannot make lives better, and more fulfilling, and their bad choices impoverish the people they ” serve” then they deserve to be on the scrap heap.

    48. Truth says:

      If you want to take the moral high ground you’ve got you actually have some morals.

      Labour are completely bereft when it comes to morals.

    49. Vestas says:

      I think that in the case of a yes vote the EU would put Scotland in a holding pen – pending our decision on continuing our membership.

      We are compliant with the acquis communautaire and are existing EU citizens so there’s no change in rights unless we choose to initiate that change.

      If the EU slams the door on an existing liberal country which has a 62-38 margin in favour of the EU then its dead.

    50. MsDidi says:

      thepnr Alex Salmond expresses the view that EFTA/EEA membership is one possibility if we are dragged out of EU by Westministers Brexit adgenda. That has always been the case…..all options are rightly being investigated. I would dispute your claim that it is “obviously Scottish gov. preferred option”.

    51. otherdemons says:

      A bit OT, but the state of the news in this country..

      I almost missed this as it seems only the Mirror wrote about it, and even so, presented it as ‘Jack Monroe cancels BBC licence and goes on Twitter rant’ prompting an RT and “How’s this news” in my timeline. Glad I went on to read the article and her timeline though.

      “An audience producer for the flagship political discussion programme [Question Time] shared a series of posts by Britain First on Facebook.”

      “The producer also posted to a Facebook event for an anti-immigration demonstration, backed by the EDL, in Boston.
      She invited the 56 people who expressed interest in the march to apply to be in the audience of an upcoming episode in the town.”

      Cue standard ‘BBC is impartial’ reply from the Beeb. *sigh*

      In other news most of the media (and all the British media) deems too unimportant to cover, there’s the latest round of disclosures by Le Monde of the Snowden, focussing on extensive GCHQ spying in Africa.

    52. Centurian Oooya'bass says:

      Cooncillor Thinking fae Keezia Dugdale

    53. Iain More says:

      If the Dug wasn’t enough to crease myself with laughter then having to listen to the Brit Nat Media tell us that Ingerlands latest cwicket hero is actually South African. That is several bust ribs today.

    54. Tinto Chiel says:

      O/T: just watched in the pub Michelle Thomson’s moving HoC testimony of rape. Surprised so few SNP MPs were there, though I saw my own, Angela Crawley. I know Michelle is technically an independent because the party did the correct thing but wondered why so few were there. Mind you, it was generally poorly attended.

      Listened to the head of MI6 get a free Pravdasound4 hit, without journalistic questioning of course, to warn of unprecedented terrorism directed against the UK. A wonderful PR splash for the spooks and, to top it all, as Lenny H said, a quotation from Calgacus.

      Who’s been making the wastelands in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and (by proxy) in Syria, again?

      Irony by-pass as usual by Our Masters.

      But we’re all better together so let’s cower between Nanny England’s skirts. Don’t you dare leave this Wonderful Union, lovable Jocks.

      Or am I being too cynical?

    55. HandandShrimp says:

      Well Kezia, the Pisa tests either matter or they don’t. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

      As others have discussed here, there is more to education than three Pisa tests and it may be the Labour have done good things in Wales. However Kezia is hoist with her own petard and such things must count for naught if her own words are to mean anything.

      Kezia would be better to simply sticking to braying SNPbaaaad like some old Etonian in the House of Commons. It would save time and she wouldn’t keep getting blown up by her own utterances.

    56. schrodingers cat says:

      I think that in the case of a yes vote the EU would put Scotland in a holding pen – pending our decision on continuing our membership.

      we need a position on an Iscotlands place wrt to the eu DURING indyref2, we can just say, we will be in a holding pen?

      that is why the snp are looking at chosing the EFTA/EEA membership,

      1. the snp dont need another referendum to negotiate this position. the 62% remain vote in the euref gives them a mandate to propose and negotiate for this after indyref2. no doubt about it.

      2. The eu will not enter into formal negotiations with the eu before we are independent so clarity of exactly what an Iscotlands position would be in the eu would be difficult to extract from the EU. However, if we state we want to join EFTA/EEA membership, then everyone will now exactly what that means and will only require a Yes from the eU during indyref2 to confirm that this will be the case. and we will get that, i certain.

      3. it will also appeal to the 13% of yessers who voted leave, indeed, this was what many of them invisaged and were told what they would get if they voted leave.

      win win, very clever move by the snp

      even the no leaving fishermen i know would vote yes in indyref2 if they knew for certain that an Iscotland’s position in the eU was going to be EFTA/EEA membership

    57. heedtracker says:

      If she can cling on, she’ll get made a Lady or Baroness. Lady Kez La Di Da. That’s what a lot of this is all about. To be fair, future Baroness Kez will have a lot more SLabour clout in the Lords than she does now. Lord Darling of Roulanishoo can click his UKOK fingers and get on any national BBC SNP bad news.

      They gave us Lady Mone of Mayfair for gawds sake.

    58. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links for July 2012 now over in O/T.

    59. DerekM says:

      o/t Regarding the UK EU referendum result you do know in the context of an independent Scottish parliament it will mean diddly squat.

      There is no way it could be legislated it is UK legislation and on that note neither will the EU parliament be able to use it in context with an indy Scotland.

      Which means yes you guessed it we will have to do it again for legislation purposes,its one of those parliamentary things but do not get all worried its not going to happen until we extract ourselves from the UK plus the EU will be busy dealing with brexit so second term of a new indy Scottish parliament sounds about right.

      And anyway considering no 16-18 or EU nationals were allowed a vote even if we could use it would we really want to?

      Best to throw that in the trash can along with the UK where they both belong.

    60. Thepnr says:

      Ms Dugdale will be gone sometime next year, her leadership and mutterings have done more damage to Labour than even Jim Murphy could manage.

      Once Labour in Scotland’s support dropped below the despised Tories you surely have to realise your doing something wrong with your traditional support (which barely exists) but no, she wants to carry on with the same ridiculous mutterings. You couldn’t describe her views as policies, they are that bad.

      She now supports the minimum wage and employment law being devolved to Scotland yet her party voted against both of these in the Scotland act? What is that about?

      I think that there are as many of her faculties that have left her as there are supporters of her party. She maybe should pay attention to that. An announcement from the brain of Ms Dugdale and another 10,000 voters desert the party “they always voted for”.

      Destructive idiocy. Yet still the remaining members support her! Absolutely crazy to support a leader who is destroying your party in front of your eyes, well best leave them to it. Sure that the Tories and SNP will be happy, expect their vote to increase while Labour commits suicide.

      If that was me, I guess I’d call it a day and find another job, there are none so blind as those that cannot see though.

    61. john young says:

      Very good article by Robin McAlpine on common space about the SNP,s lack of innovation/forward thinking,sums it up for me.

    62. heedtracker says:

      john young says:
      8 December, 2016 at 7:12 pm
      Very good article by Robin McAlpine on common space about the SNP,s lack of innovation/forward thinking,sums it up for me.

      Nation state of Scotland not innovative enough for you Johnny boy?

    63. Conan the Librarian™ says:


      Baroness Bonbon?

    64. heedtracker says:

      Conan the Librarian™ says:
      8 December, 2016 at 7:24 pm

      Baroness Bonbon?

      Funny. Takes you back eh? Baroness BonBon and Lady Abiesalba.

    65. heedtracker says:

      Actually Lord Tomkinski of Ljubljana must be a shoe in for that law Lord greatness, if he can just hold down Scotland long enough to make it. Cue real toryboy hysteria from Jezerina ref 2. He’ll have sat and that Art 50 Supreme Court circus with a funny feeling in his special place.

    66. schrodingers cat says:

      There is no way it could be legislated it is UK legislation and on that note neither will the EU parliament be able to use it in context with an indy Scotland.

      not sure what you mean by use?? if the SG negotiated and adopted the euro, the eu wouldnt care that Nicola didnt have a mandate to do this, they allowed brown to sign the lisbon treaty without a mandate from a referendum.

      they only person who needs a mandate to do anything in and for scotland is nicola and the 62% result in the euref gives her that,(within the confines of the question) regardless of which parliament brought forward the ref bill

    67. john young says:

      Don,t see any signs of a new approach heedtracker you obviously see it different and are quite at ease with the status quo something that is a total failure in every sense of the word,his point about creating a national bank of Scotland for the necessary investment in our own country resonates with me,what the eff has the SNP done in creating/encouraging small businesses very little that I can see,still if it makes you and others happy,so be it.

    68. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Capella Any links to todays SC Transcripts

    69. schrodingers cat says:

      Thepnr says:
      8 December, 2016 at 7:11 pm

      Ms Dugdale will be gone sometime next year

      anas sarwar

    70. heedtracker says:

      john young.

      Yes dear. We saw MacAlpine and chums do and say anything to break into the SNP vote last Scots GE, very clever and radical of them. They were all played like fools by everyone yoonster and tory, from BBC vote SLab Scotland to the C4 teatime news gimps on right the noo. “Oh Robin, tell us again just how truly bad are SNP bad.”

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      So, to justify 28(8) being meaningless (political), Keen has said:

      “The Smith Commission was a political commission between all the political parties in Scotland. Lord Smith produced a report and the Government undertook to implement the recommendations in the report in the Scotland Bill 2016, and it did so virtually line by line. So it was the expression of a political agreement within statutory form, and that is why I would respectfully suggest it is rather unusual in that context.”

      But if Smith was a political commission, then either all parts that were put into legislation are statutory, or they might be political. But there’s nothing political about this to my mind:

      Smith: “22. The Sewel Convention will be put on a statutory footing

      Therefore it is, on a statutory footing. Ergo est as they might say.

    72. Tam Jardine says:

      john young

      You read McAlpine’s piece? He ridicules SNP alleged claims of 16000 jobs being created in Scotland due to the new Heathrow runway and proceeds to pull a £10 billion national investment bank out of his arse.

      “And the funding (£10billion)would be easy to find. One of the major focuses of Common Weal’s policy work over the last year and a half (working with the New Economics Foundation and Friends of the Earth) has been to develop rock-solid and easily achievable proposals for a Scottish National Investment Bank”

      In the same article!

      Anyway- Robin (who I like alot) should have stood for parliament rather than carping from the sidelines like this. He lost all credibility in my eyes when he stood up at Glasgow Green amidst the height of our brevity outrage and suggested we would be ready for another referendum in about 5 years time.

    73. Achnababan says:

      One thing that should be understood about comparing Schools around the world is how hard some nations make their children work. In Singapore, Japan and China the children have little time to play and enjoy life as they are driven from school straight to their tutor from the age of 4 or 5 to swot up on the days learning!

      Yes they achieve great scores but at what cost?

      The children get their own back on their demanding parents of course later, usually by going crazy at University, freed from the shackles of their School, parents and tutors.

      I don’t want my son to grow up under that sort of pressure – if he wants to be successful in work then he knows that one day he will have to work hard – but not just now as he is 3 and still likes having fun.

    74. Tam Jardine says:

      for brevity read brexit obvs

    75. Capella says:

      @ ronnie – here’s the link to the Thursday morning session which kicks off with the Lord Advocate. Some cracking presentations in this footage.
      The afternoon session wasn’t available earlier but I’ll check. It has the seething responses from Lord Keen and James Eadie QC both for the Government.

    76. Stu Mac says:


      I’ve said this here before (as have others) – she is only in place because the possible challengers know Labour is heading for another drubbing in next year’s local elections. No one wants to be in charge when that happens. Soon as the election is over she will be replaced, probably by schrodingers cat’s suggestion.

    77. Capella says:

      @ ronnie – yes the afternoon video is now available. List of all catch up videos at the foot of this page:

      As well as James Wolffe, I also liked the presentation by Helen Mountfield QC, very sharp cookie in the Thursday morning session. Manjit Gill QC also very good. The faces of the government lawyers sitting behind some of the QCs is hilarious. I think they are well and truly stuffed.

      Info on all papers and timetable with QCs etc on this page:

    78. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Capella Many thanks I saw some of this mornings session but not long, hope you can post the afternoon session transcripts.

    79. john young says:

      Tam Jardine so we couldn,t have a bank a bank of investment oh no we are as well to stick with the charlatans/crooks,anyone that pushes 16,000 jobs from heathrow is blowin oot their arse,he at least puts proposals up,what have we heard from the SNP about getting in or creating work sustainable work,I,ll tell you eff all,I vote for them but to me they are a bunch of typical politicians hopeless,I would bin the lot of them.

    80. Capella says:

      @ ronnie – the transcripts are at the foot of the brexit hub page I posted above.

      I was looking for some reference to the Independent Workers Union of Great Britain submission but nobody spoke to it as far as I’ve heard.

      However, James Wolffe QC mentions the Treaty of Union specifically and the fact that Scotland’s laws cannot be altered by the Crown ( so no royal Prerogative). Helen Mountfield QC also mentions the Treaty of Union on two occasions, basically saying the same thing.

      The Attorney General’s face is a picture throughout. And the closing speeches by Lord Keen against Scotland and James Eadie QC, Government spokesman, are apoplectic. They will need a long lie down after today.

    81. ScottieDog says:

      @Tam Jardine

      But creating a national investment bank and issuing bonds is the sort of thing that needs to be done. For me creating another dependency strand aka Heathrow which will do little (except highlight hypocrisy over our green credentials) wasn’t a good idea.

      I’d have happily invested in an investment bank which created organic growth in Scotland. It’s a shame it was dismissed so quickly.

    82. heedtracker says:

      I’d have happily invested in an investment bank which created organic growth in Scotland. It’s a shame it was dismissed so quickly.

      That’s not how it works.

      Where does the money come from?

      There’s no economic devo to set up a Bank of

    83. Capella says:

      For anyone who wants to catch up on “The Supreme Court”, season 1 episodes 1 – 4, the main pages are – the Article 50 Brexit Appeal Hub listing all the participants, their QCs, papers submitted and transcripts of sessions; and the page listing the catch up videos.

      I don’t know who designed their website but it wasn’t anyone with IT skills. Navigation is a nightmare so I’ll post these links here:


      I found the series fascinating and it is quite likely that there will be a season 2 in the New Year!

    84. Clydebuilt says:

      So …… What should we make of the Sunday Herald running a campaign to get Dugdale replaced….

      Shouting that The SNP must be held to account by a party of the Left…..

      The gift that keeps on giving….. And the SH wants her replaced…..

    85. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T but with regards to otherdemons says at 6:33 pm

      “In other news most of the media (and all the British media) deems too unimportant to cover, there’s the latest round of disclosures by Le Monde of the Snowden, focussing on extensive GCHQ spying in Africa.”

      “TOP-SECRET BRITISH SURVEILLANCE operations targeted the director of the World Trade Organization, several multinational corporations, a top French businessman, and heads of state across Africa, according to a new series of reports by Le Monde.”

      Makes me wonder if the whole Boris, Clown Prince of Brexit “slapped down by May over Saudi comments” is a wee smoke screen to divert attention to this GCHQ spying story.

      Brexit Britain wouldn’t want to upset their ‘brave new business markets’ in Africa now they’ve decided to leave the European Single Market would they now?

      I can just hear May on her Middle East tour saying “Take one for the team BawJaws and don’t worry House of Saud we’ll give you a decent reduction on your next Billion £ order of munitions destined to be dropped on the Yemen”

    86. Valerie says:

      @John young

      Here we go again, I vote SNP, but they are pure shite.

      How do you think they set about the Queensferry Crossing, the steel jobs, the new roads and hospitals? The investment in renewable energy and jobs to come? The world’s largest tidal power generation scheme underway?

      If they have done nothing for small businesses, then why do hundreds support them?

      You are chatting shit for the sake of a wind up. Do your homework, or stop posting this shit, that we know is desperate attention seeking drivel.

      No one is buying it here, try Scotland in Union. They eat that shit up.

    87. Tam Jardine says:

      john young & ScottieDog

      Neither of you have understood my post I’m afraid- I did not and would not denigrate the idea of a national investment bank and I have not and would not support Heathrow expansion.

      McAlpine’s article on CommonSpace criticises the SNP for magically inventing thousands of jobs and a couple of paragraphs later solves the £10billion Chinese investment shortfall by magically creating an investment bank with tens if not hundreds of billions of pounds of assets. It’s (and I quote) “easily achievable” apparently.

      I might try and knock one up over the weekend

    88. heedtracker says:

      john young says:

      Robin, is that you?

      I wonder what lessons mainstream politics is learning from the democratic shocks of recent years. Did the SNP win a landslide on the back of a campaign to create a different nation, and conclude that what its voters really wanted was for it to parrot Heathrow propaganda?
      Is the conclusion from Brexit that what people are crying out for is old politics,

    89. Croompenstein says:

      Aw FFS Greg Lake has died aged 69… f off 2016

    90. Robert Peffers says:

      @mike cassidy says: 8 December, 2016 at 6:19 pm:

      “..Of course, the Scottish Government can’t be seen to rubbish PISA..”

      “Why not?”

      Very good question, Mike.

      Now you probably didn’t mean it in this particular way … but – here is the answer:

      Because Scotland’s government isn’t independent yet and so must work within the constraints placed upon them by the parliament of our masters who govern us from their own parliament at Westminster in our neighbouring country.

      Let us not make any bones about that fact. After all the person our neighbouring country’s parliament has placed in charge of us, Secretary of State for Scotland, David Mundell, proclaimed that as fact on national TV:-

      “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.”

      Now when the actual, “Secretary of State for Scotland”, makes an announcement to the nation we have to take it as the truth.

      He does, after all, have the backing of the Government of England that calls itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom for that government has commissioned a paper by their experts that does indeed hold that to be true.

      Furthermore the Prime Minister of that government has not corrected him, or them, but has backed them to the hilt.

      What’s more, to make it abundantly clear, that same renamed Parliament of the Kingdom of England has passed legislation called EVEL, (English Votes for English Laws).

      They do indeed legislate for England with English law and they fund only England directly as the United Kingdom.

      Then they decide what restricted Block Grants they are prepared to allow the other three subservient countries as funding. While they prevent the MPs from the three subservient countries from being able to vote upon what they decide are none of the other countries business.

      They can express it in any way they decide but that is the actuality. I have to ask – just why to Scots put up with such oppressive treatment from another country?

    91. heedtracker says:

      john young says:

      Because if it is you Robin, I like “the think and do tank of which I’m the director” bit. Are you really that cheezed off about a conference stall price?

      “This ecosystem harms everything it touches. I am writing this in the cafe of the Glasgow Science Centre, across the river Clyde from the SNP’s annual conference. Common Weal, the think and do tank of which I’m the director, has always had a stall at the SNP conference. But this year, the costs quadrupled. We simply couldn’t justify the expense.”

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 8 December, 2016 at 5:45 pm:

      “What we need is a red white and blue solution”

      Naw! Dr Jim, Ye hae got yon earse fir elbow. That’s the problem – it’s no the solution.

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      @Truth says: 8 December, 2016 at 6:20 pm:

      ” … Labour are completely bereft when it comes to morals.”

      Nah! Labour actually have, arguably, far more morals than the other unionist parties. The problem is that they are all bad morals.

    94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat,

      You seem to be on a big mission these days to sell a soft-Brexit EEA/EFTA future for iScotland. Well, I for one ain’t buying.

      Firstly, the mandate from the EUref is NOT ANY kind of Brexit. It’s Remain. Some kind of renegotiation will of course need to occur, but that could simply be a divvying-up of Scotland’s portion of the current UK position, which obviously needs no further mandate to confirm.

      Secondly, if you tell the EU in advance of indyref2 that some kind of weaker non-EU position is your actual aim, they will drop Scotland faster than a hot brick. They want the 28 to remain 28, they’re not interested in us if we’re out. Why would they bother? So no “holding pen” option and no (diplomatic) “nods and winks” of support for us in the referendum. Wise choice? – are you crazy?

      Thirdly, you seem to think that this is Nicola’s ultimate aim somehow, but give no justification for this view. It looks like wishful thinking to me. (Unless you’re Nicola posting under an alias, that is! = grin=) If you care to check what she said to both the Irish and the EU Greens recently, her support for remaining firmly within the EU was stated clearly enough. You have never recognised this stone-cold fact. Or do you think she is being duplicitous a la Tony Blair, and telling everyone she meets whatever she thinks they want to hear?

      The EEA/EFTA business is merely part of a tactical attempt to explore possible options if Scotland remains attached to the UK and thus is forcibly Brexited along with it. It’s a convenient rallying-point for the doubters which you identify. In the event that even this “custom-tailored” option is refused by UKGov, as it will be, it becomes instantly obsolete, and indyref2 is on.

      Fourthly, I believe you are placing far too much emphasis on pandering to the self-declared Yes/Leavers. Some of them only voted Leave anyway to cause a crisis, not out of any conviction. I believe that most true supporters of indy will rally again to the cause, since to stick with the UK cripples every possibility of hoped-for significant change.

      Indyref2 is almost certainly going to be an existential question for Scotland. Independent or totally submerged into UK=England. Why would anyone who truly supports indy prefer the hard-control of the UK to the soft-touch of the EU? I mean, really?

      If indyref2 loses a few rightwing or loony-left theoretical purists along the way, what a shame. I don’t give a flying fart. Likewise the fishermen. (They will get screwed by a Tory-Brexited UK anyway, they just don’t realise it yet.)

    95. scottieDog says:

      @Tam Jardine
      I actually think it is easily achievable but take your point about Robin – i have put some critical comments following his articles before but they never get answered. There are other successful examples of national investment banks out there to make it a pretty straight forward process I reckon.

    96. Gary45% says:

      Aye heard this earlier, my mum bought me my first vinyl album, “I think I was about 11 years old” she went to get Pictures at an Exhibition but came home with Brain salad Surgery, (as Pictures was sold out at our local shop,) every ELP album a classic

    97. DerekM says:

      What is so hard to understand we will not be the UK,so we would be passing another states legislation through our parliament if we use the UK EU referendum result to legislate.

      can you see how insane that would be?

    98. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Keep up Robert, I’m doing sarcasm, Red White and Blue solutions are Theresa Mays answer to questions these days
      This apparently is how our new Utopia is going to work and we’ve all to believe in it (pentecostals singing in the background) well white black folk that’ll have to be for when the Donald arrives on his Golden Chariot hand made from the tears of heavenly cherubs

    99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      DerekM @ 22:15,

      There is no problem. Every newly-independent state retains the body of law of its predecessor until it explicitly chooses to change it under its own authority. Courts in Canada or the US, for example, can and do still quote English or Scots Law precedences (as applicable) from before their self-autonomy was established.

      In any case, as we have seen in the SC these last few days, it’s clear that the result of the EURef in particular was not binding, but the result is nevertheless politically significant. And that political significance for Scotland itself remains just as valid post-indy as pre.

    100. Robert Peffers says:

      @john young says: 8 December, 2016 at 9:02 pm:

      ” … I vote for them but to me they are a bunch of typical politicians hopeless,I would bin the lot of them.”

      Yeah! John, and that’ll be why they have the biggest support of the people of Scotland and your lot have, “so few”, elected to either parliament.

    101. K1 says:

      You ‘are’ an alert readers Robert JS @ 10.06pm! 🙂

      ‘If indyref2 loses a few rightwing or loony-left theoretical purists along the way, what a shame. I don’t give a flying fart.’


    102. Robert Peffers says:

      @ScottieDog says: 8 December, 2016 at 9:11 pm:

      “But creating a national investment bank and issuing bonds is the sort of thing that needs to be done.”

      Just why, exactly, Scottiedog? What would it actually achieve?

      In the rather chancy economic climate at present it would risk failure and the London Financial sector would do its level best to see it fail.

      ” … For me creating another dependency strand aka Heathrow which will do little (except highlight hypocrisy over our green credentials) wasn’t a good idea.”

      Why not look just a wee bit further than the end of your nose, Scottiedog? The chances are that a Heathrow expansion would take some years to plan, fund and build.

      By the time it gets well underway Scotland could well be an independent nation and the successor EU member state of a defunct United Kingdom and England out in the cold, cold World marketplace with the giant Heathrow Albatross hanging round its neck.

      An Albatross far too big to only handle English Business after many international companies bail out of England to retain their foothold in the EU.

      As I’ve pointed out before Scotland has several banks and any one of them could be expanded quickly to cope with a newly independent nations business.

    103. yesindyref2 says:

      @John Young
      I read the McAlpine article which spends quite a time talking about Longannet without mentioning even once that Longannet was in line for a lot of funding for CCS which would have taken its future for perhaps decades to come, but the award was scrapped by the incoming Tory Government. Now that’s very strange. The article was all about CRG/3 and China, ignoring that the possibility of funds is still there, they’re waiting for the ScotGov to get a team together to address projects for investment – stalled because of the Brexit vote. But it’s still on the go.

      So the article was a rant against the SNP, Heathrow (SNP), China (SNP), economists (SNP and Scotland) and even for those who don’t care about the SNP, it’s likely to put people off any notion of his idea of an investment bank because he’s party political – or anti-party political.

      So I had a look at his bank, one of the backers being the New Economics Foundation, which has an American foundation, the UK Gov Cabinet office, and the NI Office as donors, amongst others. That’s not against it as such, but it’s a bit of a shame he didn’t stick to a Scottish idea, one which Indy supporters might get behind.

      All I’ve done is what some of us do regularly to “think-tanks”, to check out their origins and their bias.

      Nothing wrong about the idea of an investment bank, it’s the provenance I wouldn’t touch with someone else’s bargepole.

    104. Andrew Mclean says:

      John Glen,
      Star man

      Flying high now.

    105. Andrew Mclean says:

      Apologies, Glenn.

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      I meant anti-SNP-party political. Nothng wrond with being anti-party political, I’m a bit that way myself even as a member of the SNP. Party politica are so destructive at times. Never mind.

      The NEF’s 2nd highest donor operates: “Throughout england and wales”, and there are a lot of reasons Scotland will benefit from a 3rd runway, which doesn’t stop us continuing to develop our own routes – and airports. The clue to that is “Friends of the Earth” as another joint part of that bankl thinktank. FOE have a petition AGAINST the 3rd runway.

      So basically Robin McApine is allied with people who have nothing to do with Scotland, let alone Independent Scotland.

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 8 December, 2016 at 10:17 pm:

      “Keep up Robert, I’m doing sarcasm,”

      Yeah! I know Dr Jim. I’m just doing a bit of, tongue-in-cheek, poking of fun at things with my usual pawkie dry humour.

    108. heedtracker says:

      BBC Question Time must have given Scotland a mention. Its a bit odd watching the QT stars watching it too, twitter wise. Are you a “true” Scot?

      Louise Mensch Retweeted
      Gray Connolly ?@GrayConnolly 3m3 minutes ago
      @LouiseMensch true Scots voted Leave, as the Stuart plan was for a united Britain under one Crown & allegiance regardless of religion/region

    109. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      schrodingers cat,

      You seem to be on a big mission these days to sell a soft-Brexit EEA/EFTA future for iScotland. Well, I for one ain’t buying.

      well dont then, im not selling anything
      If you are not interested in a thread, simply read past. I do

      Firstly, the mandate from the EUref is NOT ANY kind of Brexit.

      the mandate from the referndum was no to leaving the eu and 62% yes to remaining as we are, ie the status quo, nothing more but everything in between which retains free movement of people and goods which is what she is trying to defend

      It’s Remain. Some kind of renegotiation will of course need to occur, but that could simply be a divvying-up of Scotland’s portion of the current UK position, which obviously needs no further mandate to confirm.

      I dont believe we will get exactly the same deal as the uk, that is my point, anything more or different than we have at the moment has not been mandated by the people of scotland

      Secondly, if you tell the EU in advance of indyref2 that some kind of weaker non-EU position is your actual aim, they will drop Scotland faster than a hot brick.

      Im not sure this is true but it needs consideration, this was why i like the revs idea of an euref2, after we are independent, but with only options of a greater integration into the eu, ie no need for an leave option or conformation of anything in between a leave and the status quo, eg a norway type status. the 62% have already agreed to that.
      but i take your point that the eu fols in brussels might not be too keen on a norway type status for scotland. maybe nicola can buy them off with an offer of an euref2

      They want the 28 to remain 28, they’re not interested in us if we’re out. Why would they bother? So no “holding pen” option and no (diplomatic) “nods and winks” of support for us in the referendum. Wise choice? – are you crazy?

      27.5 to be correct, england is leaving
      if im crazy then so are salmond and nicola? and since she has actually spoken with the eu, I’ll leave her to decide what is advisable

      Thirdly, you seem to think that this is Nicola’s ultimate aim somehow, but give no justification for this view. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

      there are others on this thread who also see this move by both salmond and Nicola, there are also press releases and comments by both indicating this. google is your friend

      (Unless you’re Nicola posting under an alias, that is! = grin=) If you care to check what she said to both the Irish and the EU Greens recently, her support for remaining firmly within the EU was stated clearly enough. You have never recognised this stone-cold fact. Or do you think she is being duplicitous a la Tony Blair, and telling everyone she meets whatever she thinks they want to hear?

      fine but Remain means remain is as vacuous as brexit means brexit, no one actually knows what that means, and wont do until negotiations are over. that is why the snp are moving towards the norway model, the details of which are known, as a position to take during indyref2

      The EEA/EFTA business is merely part of a tactical attempt to explore possible options if Scotland remains attached to the UK and thus is forcibly Brexited along with it. It’s a convenient rallying-point for the doubters which you identify. In the event that even this “custom-tailored” option is refused by UKGov, as it will be, it becomes instantly obsolete, and indyref2 is on.

      as i said above, i believe this will be the snp strategy wrt the eu DURING indyref2

      Fourthly, I believe you are placing far too much emphasis on pandering to the self-declared Yes/Leavers. Some of them only voted Leave anyway to cause a crisis, not out of any conviction. I believe that most true supporters of indy will rally again to the cause, since to stick with the UK cripples every possibility of hoped-for significant change.

      I have no intention of sticking with the uk, im only interested in voters in scotland, you and I may be hard yes remainers, but we need to appeal in indyref2 to another 10% of the population for yes to win.

      Indyref2 is almost certainly going to be an existential question for Scotland. Independent or totally submerged into UK=England. Why would anyone who truly supports indy prefer the hard-control of the UK to the soft-touch of the EU? I mean, really?

      Im not sure what you are saying, i know how important it is to win indyref2, im merely discussing the best tactic for us wrt the eu in indyref2

      If indyref2 loses a few rightwing or loony-left theoretical purists along the way, what a shame. I don’t give a flying fart. Likewise the fishermen. (They will get screwed by a Tory-Brexited UK anyway, they just don’t realise it yet.)

      no point in appealing to any hard Nos, we all know that, what the revs article the other day was about how we attract another 105 to yes?

      i think the snps move wrt to the eu and the revs idea of an euref2 are ideas we should consider

    110. drew sword says:


      Let us go free

    111. Chic McGregor says:

      So much stupidity and ignorance on QT tonight I really despair and would not know where to begin.

    112. scotspine says:

      @John Young

      Listen min, piss off. Its easy seen you are an adherent to Westminster rule.

      Whats it like at GCHQ, or Aldershot, or Colchester, or Catterick tonight by the way?

    113. Valerie says:

      @Chic McGregor

      I feel your pain. Its depressing beyond belief.

      That Mensch harpy caught outright lying about Mays trip to India being a great success. No it wasn’t, it was highly embarrassing.

    114. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Tam Jardine 8.31 pm To be fair to Robin McAlpine he made that statement at G/Green and retracted it some days later, not some much as retracted but changed his mind on the 5 yrs. McAlpine is a soundbite politico ( Alistair Darling in his younger day’s). Sheridan has exited stage left Mc Alpine is filling the void , the deep thinker that runs aff at the mooth.

    115. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 23:25:

      Im not sure what you are saying, i know how important it is to win indyref2,

      On that point, I simply meant that when the chips are down, the vast majority of those who voted Yes the last time will come round to do so again the next time, because to do otherwise would be to permanently wreck all their hopes. (New lock-in Treaty of Union, attack on devolution by a very reactionary right-wing Unionist UKGov, etc.) All because of some dog-in-manger spite over the EUref? That’s not the positive attitude of the yes side I knew.

      After all is said and done, the prospect last time was actually indy within the EU. I don’t believe many on the Yes side were taken in by Project Fear’s monstering of the Yes side’s EU hopes with the help of Marr & Barroso’s dog-and-pony show on the BBC.

      On the other hand, many “no” voters were taken in. And thanks to Brexit, they are open to conversion now. Provided we offer status-quo on the EU, not something less.

      I think you are trying, with the best of intentions of course, to be too conciliatory to people who mostly don’t need it at the risk of losing important groups of people (eg. EU-leaning voters and EU leaders) who very much do.

      Surely we have to look outward to win, not inward?

    116. schrodingers cat says:

      Provided we offer status-quo on the EU, not something less.

      thats my point, if do this in indyref2, we will be shot down by andrew neil who will say, correctly in my opinion, the eu wont give scotland a population share of the uk rebate. ergo there is no chance of status quo?

    117. Still Positive. says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 12.16

      Agree totally: we have to look outward which I think we do.

      The nonsense spoken in indyref1 was totally ridiculous re EU. They would have welcomed us with open arms even if it was only for our green credentials – never mind the fishing.

    118. Capella says:

      Last word! Here is the Lord Advocate asserting that Parliament is the final authority in law, and not the Crown:

    119. Dr Jim says:

      I might be going out of my brain here but I’ve just read the National Grid has been sold to China
      Is this how you take back control and then sell it

      Somebody say it’s a joke and I’ve been had, but if it’s true how the F..k do you sell the National Grid, I mean it’s National, and it’s the grid FFS

    120. Meg merrilees says:


      I have just finished listening to the whole day’s submissions and I thought the Lord Advocate was much clearer and more succinct today; especially since his ACE card, “..that the Parliament is the final authority to change the law in Scotland and not the Crown” was left to the the final few minutes of his presentation, perhaps for maximum effect?
      Mr Gill was refreshingly direct and I loved his final request that the findings of this court, ‘… should not turn a flexible constitution into a slippery constitution’.

      The judges gave James Eadie, QC, a long grilling this afternoon and it was noticeable that the Lord Advocate, sitting just behind him, seemed to relish the situation. This gave me hope that perhaps his legal mind could read something of the judges thoughts and reasonings that gave him hope.

      I was worried that we might have been out-manoeuvred when 5 minutes from the end of the day Mr. Eadie quoted the result of the Brexit vote in UK Parliament last night and stated that Parliament had, in effect, already given its support to the Government to implement Article 50.

      It was reassuring that he was immediately corrected by one judge that only the House of Commons had voted and not ‘The Queen in Parliament’ and by a second judge that basically this was irrelevant to their judgement as they had to decide how to legally implement Article 50 and if it needed an Act of Parliament then so be it.

      Was it coincidence that there was no one from the IWGB to represent their case? Their written submission is largely concerned with the Claim of Right and the Treaty of Union. Was a decision made that it wouldn’t do to have someone openly talking about such ‘stuff’ on live television? Who knows?

      Found the whole thing fascinating!

    121. Meg merrilees says:

      Dr. Jim

      Looks like you might be right… 61% share of the gas distribution to China and Qatar…

    122. Meg merrilees says:

      Dr. Jim

      Looks like you’re right… 61% of the gas distribution to China and Qatar..

    123. Liz g says:

      Thank You so very much for your links.

      Ronnie Anderson @ 12.12
      I am not a bit surprised that Robin McAlpine changed his mind after Glasgow Green…He had to have seen everyone give each other the WTF look when he said it.

      Very OT.sorry
      But all this talk of a new act of Union around the net,which IMHO will have a no Independence clause tucked in it somewhere.
      Has me wondering….. Does anyone know if the all new shiny
      Voter Registration rules,has anything in them to prevent individuals going round and making sure that people are registered.
      They way a lot of people did last time for Indy ref 1???

      I know it sounds a bit far fetched but… I would have argued that anyone claiming N. Lanarkshire would ban posters from being put on lampposts as paranoid….yet they did it.

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      I keep meaning to post this link, now I am!

      e.g. “England’s war effort was funded through a national debt, supplied increasingly by taxes on trade rather than land.

      The largest component of customs dues was levied on the colonial trade. But this trade faced significant disruption from Scottish commercial networks which circumvented the Navigation Acts contrived to protect English domestic and overseas trade. “

      Scotland took on a share of England’s debt, in exchange for a few Baron’s being repaid their debts – not Scotland’s debts.

      “By agreeing that reparations and investment should be met by the raising of taxes to English levels, the Scots were effectively financing their own dividends from union. “

      From 2011 or before by Allan I. Macinnes – Professor of Early Modern History at the University of Strathclyde.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg Merrilees
      “Queen in Parliament”. Yes, from the transcript:

      “MR EADIE: The House of Commons, exactly.
      THE PRESIDENT: But the Queen in Parliament has not.
      MR EADIE: Because the House of Lords has not.
      THE PRESIDENT: No, the Queen in Parliament has not. There is no statute.


      The President likely got that from Wolffe the day before:

      “LORD MANCE: I see that point, but can we be specific; do you in the last in stance rely on the Scotland Act, the reference, the incorporation of the Sewel convention as law?

      THE LORD ADVOCATE: I would certainly make the submission even if it wasn’t, if it had not been incorporated into law by section 28(8), I would make the submission. Of course I have the benefit that the convention has been incorporated into statute, and if I could put it this way, in a legal system where the basic rule of recognition is that what the Queen in Parliament enacts as law, that has transformed the juridical status of the rule from a convention into a rule of law.”

      So his submission seems to have made quite the impression on the Lord President.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      One last thing, I remember a couple of posters talking about “the Prerogative” as opposed to “the Royal Prerogative. But in the UK the prerogative is delegated by the Queen to the Government whereas in the USA for example I guess it’s delegated by the Constitution (or something), certainly not a Royal, they don’t have one!

    127. Ken500 says:

      The Tories couldn’t make a bigger mess. What an absolute shambles. The unelected Tory Gov is a disgrace, They committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. They are a laughing stock world wide.

      Scotland is losing £20Billion a year to the Union. Coming out of the EU will lose £10Billion more in trade restrictions and in investment Grants etc.

      Westminster is a total shambles. An absolute disgrace.the only out for the Tories is to have an election and lose. With the SNP holding the balance of power.

      Westminster caused the migration crisis in Europe. Coming out of the EU will not solve the crisis. The migrants will still come.

      The only way to solve the crisis is for the UK/US Gov stop illegally invading and bombing the Middle East to bits, as they have been doing for years and reconstruct the damage they have done. Supporting absolute despot monarchies and apartheid States who disobey International Law. Most of Westminster politicians should be put in jail. They are criminals. The only reason they want out of the EU is to tax evade and defraud £Billions of public money. They are crooks and charlatans. Lawyers who disobey International Law. They break the Laws they make and hide it under the Official Secrets Act.

      Investment funds/banks depend on how they are run. Aberdeen Investment fund is the biggest investment fund in Europe. .

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    128. Jean Nisbet says:

      I want to point out a couple of things that won’t go down well with our Labour friends in Scotland (I’m a Green, btw, not SNP):

      Scotland joined PISA in 2000 and the decline in results began right then and has continued ever since.

      The Labour party was in control nationally and in local authorities from 1996-2006, not the SNP. This period coincided with the big push to have 5-14 ‘fully implemented.’ That meant teaching was stifled and tests were introduced, against teachers’ wishes, and years were wasted harassing teachers and headteachers over school results.

      It was Labour local authorities who demanded the SNP government do away with ‘ring-fencing’ education budgets. That led to millions being lost from education budgets almost overnight. Labour local authorities also demanded a special contract for supply teachers, which reduced supply teachers’ pay and has made it nigh on impossible for schools to cover absence and illness among their staff.

      Nicola Sturgeon is good to carry the can for CfE but tinkering with the curriculum will not work. Scotland has – sadly – always been keen to have a national/standardised education system, despite evidence that what’s needed is the ability to come up with something new that meets the needs of learners, not Labour politicians.

    129. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 5.45
      I had mentioned Prerogative/Royal Prerogative.
      But only in the context that especially on the first day every one was just saying Prerogative.
      What I was getting at was, I was wondering if there was an unspoken agreement to not mention Royal.
      So as to not associate the queen with this.
      Remember that these are all establishment types who slabber over the world Royal at every chance they get.
      That might be what you are remembering!
      It was really only an observation and I did notice yesterday some were back to using Royal…. especially the woman who spoke.

    130. Ken500 says:

      Getting rid of Sky was the best. Make Scotland SKy free. More money to donate to the SNP and food banks. The Murdoch criminals causing death and destruction world wide. Bribing public Officials. Including Gove. Remuneration to his wife. Non Dom tax evaders breaking the Law. .

      Sewell was the coke taker. A joke. How many of the ‘judges’ obey the Law. Westminster Unionists should be drink and drug tested before they vote. The Supreme Court is a farce, They should go to the ECHR before the Westminster criminals abolish people’s human rights. The useless, arrogant, ignorant incompetents.

    131. Free Scotland says:

      @Jean Nisbet at 7:07 a.m.

      Excellent post, Jean.

      This should be printed out and affixed to the staff-room notice board of every school in the country.

    132. Les Wilson says:

      Jean Nisbet says:

      A good post Jean, well done, keep it up.

    133. Undeadshaun says:

      So food and drink is worth 18 billion, I wonder how much of that is scotlands exports?

    134. Ken500 says:

      The Tories at Westminster have cut the Education/NHS budget for 6 years. They are trying to cut the NHS budget in England by £20Billion in four years – £5Billion a year. The Scottish Gov has had to top up the SNHS because of Westminster budget cuts. Scotland can’t tax ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol which would improve health and save public money in Scotland.

      The local authorities cut the education, essential services budget and spend the money on grotesque projects of little value that the majority do not want. Against the majority wishes and pubkic interest, They borrow and spend like there is no tomorrow. They waste taxpayers money on over priced, non mandated projects of little value causing even more traffic chaos supported by the Greens. They renege on their own policies for remuneration and Office. Corruption reins Supreme.

    135. Macandroid says:

      Disruptive pupils.

      I believe that in France, if your child is disruptive in class, your benefits are reduced or withheld. Seemed to make a difference.

      Haven’t checked this for a while so might be out of date.

    136. Nana says:


      Bob Dudley, was he not a funder of Bettertogether?

      If this was an snp man the headline would say so, but its a slabber
      Councillor charged with conspiracy and indecent messages

      Warning- Muddle Mundell in the pic
      Drams in London to toast whisky export boost

    137. Giving Goose says:

      Labour no longer exist as a party worth voting for. They are just a curiosity now.

      The Sleaford by-election result in England demonstrates that in England Labour have failed.

      Labour are simply a dead duck party.

      Labour politicians in Scotland are either excessively loyal to the party or simply stupid.

      Kezia Dugdale is a laughing stock. I mean, seriously, who actually thinks that she is going to do anything meaningful for Scotland or for her party? A joke politician representing a joke party.

      I can think of all sorts of metaphors to use that touch on fading, wilting etc but what’s the point? They’re gone for good.

      The candle has been snuffed out.

      Now back to Scotland. Now that’s a subject worthy of talk.

    138. Smallaxe says:

      Nana:Good morning.

      Is it daytime yet?very dark.

      Kettle’s on.Thank you

      Peace Always x

    139. Nana says:

      Guy Verhofstadt’s report on the reform of the EU has been approved in the european parliament’s-afco committee by a large majority


      Britain’s 12 million pensioners are set to be worse off

    140. Ken500 says:

      The SNP have now ring fenced Education budgets but allowed the Local Authorities to decide how to allocate the extra money given to keep class sizes down. I.e. Some authorities employed more classroom assistants as a way to distribute the extra cash allocation for primary one to three. Dinners were funded. The extra money given to fund extra nursery education has not had the full up take. Some people/main carers decide not to sent their child to nursery. It is a choice. It is better for young children to have one to one care. The local authorities are supposed to still spend the (surplus) allocation on Education.

      That is why John Swinney is trying to make the aeducation payments straight to the schools. So the local authorities can’t deviate and siphon off the funds. Education budget allocation now goes straight to the schools in any case. It has done for years. The lower ‘standards’ could be down to increased older parenting and ‘increased’ inclusion. Changing life styles and circumstances. Or just mismanaged ‘tests’. Teachers need training in ‘additional needs’ in their curriculum. So all talents and abilities can be fulfilled. Computers are an aid to knowledge, spelling and sums. Any drop in ‘standards’ of wider access can be compensated by Computer access. More students are accessing higher education, life long learning, apprenticeship and skills. Unemployment levels (as a percentage of the population) are going down.

      Eg A Green forced/caused a massive Inquiry into a Golf Development which had already been decided and voted on. It took six weeks and cost £2Million? They then complained when £2Million had to be cut from the Education budget. The Greens held up an essential road Development for years. Causing £Millions more in increased costs. Wasting £Millions of public money. The Group were funded by the local landowner who did not want the road near their land. A Green, illegally colluded and stopped the expansion of an Airport. Leading to more flights to and from Heathrow. Extra flights. Less direct flights from Scotland. Anywhere but Heathrow and even more chaos and congestion.

    141. Nana says:

      Morning Smallaxe, I’ve not looked out yet.

      I’m a wee bit late this morning, dog scowling at me!

      I saw on twitter Mr Malky passed away, reading the tweets had me in bits. It is sad to lose a precious friend.

      There is a mention in this morning’s National.

    142. Ken500 says:

      More sad news. About the wee dog.

      The Tories are ruining Christmas with their carry on.

    143. Nana says:

      A reminder to share the link for London’s calling.

    144. Ken500 says:

      Bo Dudley. The Russians nearly put in him in jail for fraud, BP the worst company in economic history. An environmental disaster. Cameron’s partner in running down the North Sea production. Put untold burdens on the workers. Osbourne deliberately ruined the NS offshore industry. Now untaxed fracked Gas from the US is being imported. Hinkley Point a complete waste of money is being funded with even more borrowed money. A disaster waiting to happen. HS2 a complete waste of public money will just add to the chaos and congestion. Another disaster with cheaper alternatives for better, shorter rail journeys throughout Britain. Trident an obsolete appalling waste of public money. Anywhere but Heathrow time wasting, congestion and chaos. It will be obsolete before it is finished.

    145. Ken500 says:

      Japan doesn’t have enough children to educate or Universities. It’s population is falling drastically. An imbalance in society. China doesn’t have enough Universities. It had a ‘one child’ policy which has caused a major imbalance in it’s population and society. More boys than girls. A good education has to be paid. Still rural poverty and child labour and less overall comprehensive education. Singapore a small quota.

      Finland doesn’t spend it’s resources on illegal wars. It can afford a better education system.

      There are flaws in these tables. Not comparing like with like or overall compehensive results.

    146. Ken500 says:

      Stop judging kids and let them grow up as they want to. The ‘judges’ are not perfect. Just perfect liars. What example is that to children? No wonder people are unhappy, angry and fuming. The unelected parasites in judgement of others. Westminster Unionist crooks.

    147. labour here in Scotland is keen to use Wales when it suits its political purpose, but it also allows itself a get out, however its a different story whenever bad news from Wales is highlighted.

      How often have we seen Labour trying to deflect attention away from the bad news on the NHS from Wales or England When the First Minister Nicola sturgeon raises issues of waiting times etc.

    148. Fred says:

      Anent, Mensch & “The Stewart Plan” for religious toleration. It was Charles Stewart’s demand for Scottish conformity with his God-given attempt to force Episcopalianism on the people which brought about the Wars of the Covenant & a general civil war which caused carnage on a scale not seen again until the Great War. Mince!

      Shortbread’s new head girl Donalda doesn’t sound as if she’s from Easterhouse. Is there a connection between depopulation in the Utter Hebrides @ the number of teuchters at pacific Quay?

    149. heedtracker says:

      Coffee time with the pervs. Why would STV liggers leave Scottish Labour til the end?

      England tory meeja gimps ghost/monster JC’s Lab. Scottish tory meeja gimps boost/cover up Kez’s SLab. Its like we’re two different countries now, between the ears of the tory BBC led press.

    150. Anne Bruce says:

      “Was it coincidence that there was no one from the IWGB to represent their case”

      I understand that it was agreed, in advance, that IWGB would lodge a written submission only. Due to time constraints, I think, they were not to give an oral submission.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh aye, I know what it is I thought of. There are 54 SNP MPs in the House of Commons – what if they could ask the Speaker to rule that a Bill was England only – and invoke EVEL?

    152. Breeks says:

      So who opened the chocolate box?

      Theresa May promising an Indyref2 after Brexit, Kezia promising I don’t even know, federalism or something, then we have Europe or EFTA…. peppermint cracknel or coffee?

      No, no, no, no.

      The first order of business is to reconnect Scotland with its dormant constitutional sovereignty. Until Scotland can act alone in its own sovereign capacity, then we cannot make a sovereign commitment to anything, nor enter any deal, agreement, or membership which requires a sovereign commitment. Until we have sovereignty, EVERYTHING else is putting the horse before the cart.

      It is not a democratic referendum we require. Paradoxically, it is democracy which is holding back the enactment of Scottish sovereignty. We do not need an electoral majority to do it. All we need is formal, legal, and international recognition of Scotland’s existing sovereignty, something already recognised and on the statute book. Recognition of sovereignty and emancipation of Scotland’s political instruments from a faux parliament which cannot properly function without the subjugation of Scottish sovereignty. That is what we have at present.

      We are not hostage to any Unionist majority, we are not hostage to the goodwill or obstruction of Westminster. We have a binary question staring us in the face; “Are we sovereign or are we not?” We hold ourselves hostage by refusing to answer the question.

      Step 1. Have the Court of Session ratify the legitimacy of Scottish Sovereignty.
      Step 2. Have Scottish sovereignty secure international recognition.
      Step 3. Hold an immediate plebiscite in Scotland to have the population decide which constitutional journey Scotland will set itself upon.

      For those who don’t appreciate the distinction, a referendum is a single yes/no or black/white question, but a plebiscite is where the choice is more sophisticated, as in a question with an answer a, b, c, or d.

      It will be very important to avoid civil unrest to make sure that Unionists in Scotland have a credible option to support in that plebiscite, something along the lines of a U.K. Confederation, essentially the new Act of Union but an act where Scotland’s sovereignty is appropriately recognised. That option is not to end the Union, but fix it and make it work.

      The outcome of the plebiscite is secondary. The Rubicon is crossed, and Scotland will already be a sovereign Nation, engaging with other sovereign nations as equals. Then we can overdose on democracy and international treaties and countless referenda. We can if we so decide, snuggle up to England more closely than the UK snuggles up to the USA if that is our sovereign choice. Give them every last drop of our oil – if we so choose. But what will be different is the Scottish sovereignty recognised as sacrosanct in the prenuptial agreement.

      I hope it goes without saying, that I want a sovereign Scotland snuggling up to Europe while root and branch reform of our economy and society revitalises and inspires our productivity and personal fulfilment to never before seen levels. Frankly, I don’t see the United Kingdom playing any part in achieving that. For my entire life long, the object of the Union has been to exploit Scotland and treat is as second best in all things.

      Flick the switch on sovereignty. Then, finally, we can begin.

      I appreciate the fear that Unionism has a very toxic potential to spawn trouble and unrest when it is threatened. But I have a greater faith that many other Unionists are simply Scots; stubborn and intransigent by design, but they are also great pragmatists, and if it is the law that codifies Scotland’s rightful sovereignty, understanding that will bring a level of acceptance. Reluctant acceptance perhaps, but if they care to examine the facts, nowhere is there any lie or con to be found.

    153. heedtracker says:

      Shortbread’s new head girl Donalda doesn’t sound as if she’s from Easterhouse. Is there a connection between depopulation in the Utter Hebrides @ the number of teuchters at pacific Quay?

      She’s got the top BBC vote NO Scotland job, not to bring the world a Scottish Breaking Bad, or a Scottish Sopranos, but to take out the SNP.

      Hard core Cons are piling in hard now. Cameron honks out, “its populism,” on BBC r4 Today show, owned by toryboy freak Nic Robinson… but,

      Happy Birthday Kirk Douglas. 100 years old, stood up too and against Mccarthyite USA and won.

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      Step 0: wait and see what the judgement of the UKSC is.

    155. louis.b.argyll says:

      Aye, Nic puts the ROB into Robinson.

      It’s hard to get a word in here, what with the utter thoroughness of so many others. Rev has a monster here.

    156. Proud Cybernat says:

      “… a faux parliament which cannot properly function without the subjugation of Scottish sovereignty.”

      That, in a nutshell, is where we are (and where WM is). For 300+ years Scotland has been sending representatives to WM who were happy to sit on Scotland’s sovereignty, keep their mouths shut and accept the queen’s shilling and, with a bit of luck, a bit of ermine thrown in for good behaviour. We have been sending representatives down to that place who simply would not speak up for Scotland and by not asserting Scotland’s rights, they allowed WM to ride roughshod all over Scotland’s rights in this so-called equal partnership.

      You see what happens when Scotland DOES assert its rights. Suddenly WM cannot operate the way it would like, suddenly WM (the defacto parliament of England) finds it needs to introduce EVEL to protect itself from the pesky Scots who are now asserting their rights. Suddenly WM begins to see just how much it needs Scotland to just shut-the-f*ck up in order for it to function smoothly.

      Sorry–those days are over. And we won’t be returning to them any time soon. Scotland WILL assert our rights as we have never done before. Better start getting used to it WM.

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat

    158. Meg merrilees says:

      Liz g @2.14

      re Kezia’s new Act of Union proposal –

      It sounds distinctly fishy to me coming at roughly the same time as the WM gov proposes to offer Nicola a vote after Brexit…

      would there be two questions-

      A: Do you want to be independent
      B: Do you want to stay in the Union which will now be the New Act ( within which we would def be extinguished for all time!)

      Fortunately Nicola isnae daft BUT an awful lot of people ARE!!!

      Apologies for the double post last night.

    159. yesindyref2 says:
      9 December, 2016 at 10:02 am
      Oh aye, I know what it is I thought of. There are 54 SNP MPs in the House of Commons – what if they could ask the Speaker to rule that a Bill was England only – and invoke EVEL?


      I heard one of the Judges at th SC near the end of the day in his summation talking about the English Parliament when he was clearly meaning Westminster.

      I believe that the Government will lose their appeal BUT that the devolved assemblies and Gov won’t be involved in the negotiations. I also feel that there will be a carefully worded sentence in legalise planted somewhere in the decision that will crush Scotlands case.

    160. Liz g says:

      Been looking over this new shiny act of Union all night.
      Don’t quite understand all of it yet ….but guess what.
      Funding will change…AKA Barnet will need to go.Quelle Suprrese!!!

      The Law will need to be aligned UK wide…. The structure of the Courts will be reorganised UK wide to accommodate this.
      Everyone agreeing the Supreme Court is Supreme ,and it will all be construed with a nod to The bill of rights from the 1600 given it’s historical place.
      Couldn’t find the claim of right mentioned anywhere…tis a puzzle???
      There goes our separate legal systems!!!

      Westminster’s Soverenty is Supreme….all over again,making the law for the Supreme,Supreme Court.

      Monarchy,Defence,pretty much the same.
      Bank of England rebranding… only….
      House Of Lords to kind of go…mibbi aye , mibbi naw..

      Now we can all have Independence referendums we want whenever we want to.
      But you can read either way if it’s individualy or all Four nation’s requesting and or voting for any one nation’s status.
      Suppose we would have to ask the Supreme Court!!!!

      But the best bit is the line


      There we go…if we jumped through all the hoops,got and won a referendum,then Parliament still gets to vote on wether the act gets repealed or not.

      This is of course so that we are all reassured that we are in a stable Union.
      The sickening thing is that they might…just might get us to vote for it.
      That bit can also be read both ways, it’s really not clear if it’s a UK majority that will allow the act to take on the force of law,or each nation individualy that has to approve.
      This was obviously put together before Brexit,but,it is reading like the Brexit issues were the practice run.

      And just incase youse wir wondering…nae mention of the TREATY of the Union.
      If this ever got into a Queens speech in this form and we couldn’t stop it going through….we can forget Independence ever.

      This is ment to be urgent and should include the positive promotion of Brand UK.
      Aren’t all the flags on the food,and,Kezzia starting to make some sort of sense now.

      And what about the children I hear you cry.
      Well there is a recommendation that this lovely new arrangement is taught in Schools so that the Kid’s know that it’s something that they can be proud of.

      They’re not even bothering to hide it now.
      Need to buy Whisky or won’t sleep ever again!!!!!

    161. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 12.11
      While obviously we can’t know what they will do.
      At this point in time another referendum after Brexit promise,just so we have the clearest choice possible you understand!
      With a No vote being for a new act of Union,a cast iron guaranteed one that’s real Devo Max all written down and everything.
      Makes sense.
      That’s what I would do.
      And I would be lining it up now.
      Wouldn’t you…. I am about to run out of battery here,so if I don’t reply that’s why.

    162. Stu Mac says:

      Not really; in England the enemy is the left part of Labour, led by Corbyn (yes he is weak but he’s genuine left). In Scotland the enemy is the SNP. Also, Tories pretty well run the news/current affairs in BBC England while Labourites run it in BBC Scotland. In both cases the BBC attacks the main danger to the elite whatever they are.

    163. starlaw says:

      Kezias new act of union will replace Browns Vow in the event of Indi 2 and be just as worthless.

    164. Liz g says:

      Starlaw @ 2.26
      Difference is this time there really is a new Act of Union sitting there ready to go.

    165. Meg merrilees says:

      It’s quite a clever trick really…

      Create an extra worrying climate of fear; Brexit worries, pound falling, debt’s rising, power cuts etc..
      Any undecideds and dyed in the wool NO voters would cling to it like the proverbial s..t to a shovel.
      “Roll up, roll up…
      We’re SO much better together, and that SNP is so BA -AD; this would teach them a lesson and we’d all be so much better off, pooling and sharing.
      We’ll let you stand on your own two feet with your own tax raising powers – it’ll be just like independence but you’ll never have to worry about another Neverendum. We’ll look after you, your fishing, farming and ship building will be shafted but you’ll be ok – we’ll make sure of that.

      Just vote for our new Act of Union and you’ll be OK mate!”

      Remember the talk about the H o L trying to work out a new Act of Union about 8 months ago where they were talking about painting out trains red/white and blue and calling it the Union Line; swapping places for Scottish and English school students to integrate better.

      We should be worried, but I’m not – why? Because too many of us have now got the measure of the BBC and WM and the longer the Brexit mess goes on the stronger our case will become. The Genie is out of the bottle.

      Liz g
      Once they crystallise their ideas, we can pick holes in them, especially this new Act!

      My hope is that the Brexit challenge will win, but I think Scottish reasons will not even be mentioned because, to mention them allows them air to grow and it would be best to keep the populace ignorant of these quaint discrepancies. NI a different case so that could be used altho they initially dismissed it before the High Court ruled to accept.

    166. Dan Huil says:

      @Liz g from “At the top of the dial”

      “As I said on the other page if that gets into a Queens speech as it’s written and we can’t stop it ,we can forget Indy ever.”

      Seriously?! You would give up so easily just because Westminster has passed another law?! You have every right to speak for yourself but I believe most people in Scotland have the guts and the nous to keep fighting for independence whatever britnats and the britnat media contrive to deceive.

    167. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      The referendum would be by one nation for itself according to the act of union, so at least that’s OK. Yeah, it looks from the discussion paper Barnett goes as it’s unfair. Sigh. So we’re a step back to holding out the begging bowl to Westminster, but this time with 168 MPs. So eEngland with 84% of the vote gets to make absolutely all the decisions, including how the money gets divvied up. Oh, we need a new bridge over the Thames, it’s for the good of the UK. Crap. Can’t be bothered looking at any more, it’s a midden.

      Basically it’s an All-England Club with Ming in it, and Kezia wanting to be. Jolly hockey sticks, where’s my pink sherry?

    168. Liz g says:

      Dan Build @ 6.05
      Sorry for taking so long to reply….. cause…. reasons..LOL

      No Dan I personally wouldn’t ever give up.
      I am hoping that there are also enough of us who won’t either.
      I think it has gone far to far for the Union to survive,lets face it.
      One of the biggest lie’s is that this has ever been a successful Union.
      From even before it was done and dusted Scot’s have objected.

      What I am saying is if that Act got thru, a peaceful democratic decision would be neigh on impossible to achieve for decades.

      We are so close now ,and at least half the population do not want this Union,are probably beyond ever believing that any arrangements could be trusted.
      So if this Act gets through it will have to be because a lot..a very lot of Jiggery-pokery was deployed…not a good position for a disgruntled nation to be in.
      All the while since they think ultimately we will go.
      I believe Scotland will be asset striped and civil unrest will be encouraged.

      The potential is there for Scotland to be a place you don’t want your kid’s in anyway.

      Soooo when I say forget Indy ever I mean the kind of Independence we are all working for.
      And trying to warn of yet another threat to it.

      It is I think so very important that no new act of union ever sees the light of day.

      But so glad my friend you won’t ever give up either

    169. Liz g says:

      Dan Huil
      Sorry Dan spell check hate’s me and changed your name.
      But I am sure you knew I was talking to you.

    170. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 6.16
      Are you sure that is what it says.
      I am reading it… that it could be argued either way…
      A bit like…we all need to debate the word!!

      Anyhoo.. The big issue is that no matter what the whole document says.
      The line Westminster is the only body that can vote to repeal this act ,is the lock in clause.
      If the Treaty of the Union,that allowed Westminster to legislate for Scotland,is allowed to be “amalgamated” with and presented as The Act/Act’s of the Union,then it is in danger of becoming Shrodingers Treaty.
      We know that Westminster has turned making their rules on their side of this Treaty into an art form.
      I personally think we have to now push the concept of Soverenty..big time.. Removing Soverenty is the one place they do not want to go.
      Don’t know what you read but the were another two PDFs with that draught act , nowhere was popular Soverenty and how to incorporate it mentioned.
      It’s the one thing they can’t get around because they have a version of Soverenty too.
      And they do not want it messed with.

      Oh and apologies for the delay in responding to you.

    171. Greannach says:

      Dear Kezia,
      Please never stop tweeting, issuing press releases or doing interviews. Thank you most sincerely.

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