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Quoted for truth #82

Posted on August 07, 2015 by

Frank Cottrell Boyce in the Independent, 7 August 2015:

“Only 25 per cent of the population earns more than £30,000 a year. Most media commentators (including me) do. For people like me, the country basically works. Politics doesn’t affect me. Politics, for me, is about how other people are treated. It’s easy inside my echo-chamber to believe that I am the norm, or the middle. Easy to forget that there are voices outside.

To people in my position, austerity can be read as regrettable but pragmatic. But to my friends and family, who live outside the bubble, it’s not regrettable, it’s terrifying. It’s also not pragmatic. The crackpot, gimcrack ideological nature of austerity becomes more apparent the closer you get to the point of delivery.”

“Outside the bubble, everyone knows that an economy in which you can work 50 hours a week and still need tax credit to make the rent is a broken economy. To those outside the bubble, a Parliament that knows the country does not have enough houses yet cannot bring itself to build any for fear of “interfering with the market”, is not a Parliament at all.

And a media that sees a 50p top tax-rate, public investment and re-nationalisation of the worst failures of privatisation (railways and energy) as politically dangerous is a media whose understanding of politics has shrivelled into mere gossip.

People keep comparing the Corbyn campaign to 1983. But surely the more apt comparison is with 2001. Back then, everyone in the country – apart a few hundred politicians – knew that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, that the invasion of Iraq was a harebrained folly that would end in tragedy.

In 2015, everyone – except a few hundred politicians – can see that austerity is a harebrained folly that could end in tragedy.

We were right then. We’re right now.”

(See also this.)

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    1. 07 08 15 11:46

      Quoted for truth #82 | Speymouth

    148 to “Quoted for truth #82”

    1. heedtracker says:

      After 12 years of Bliar/Brown/Flipper Labour government-
      “Only 25 per cent of the population earns more than £30,000 a year” and then there’s their war on terror in the middle east.

    2. jimnarlene says:

      Well said.

    3. Dave McEwan Hill says:


    4. think again says:

      “It hurts the poor and the economically precarious when they can’t see themselves reflected in the collective mirror that is the media” This is taken from the second article you included by Barbara Ehrenreich.

      Strikes me that that observation goes far beyond the poor.

      How much of what we read, see, or hear in the media reflects where we are and what we believe. That is true I would suggest not just of pro independence supporters or the poor, regardless of where they live or who they support.

      Labour has sold its soul to the Establishment and the fact that the SNP and Corbyn strike such fear into them means two thing in my mind we are both, in our own way, right and even more scary for them we are in touch with the mood of the people who have seen that there is a sense of hope over fear.

    5. The Man in the Jar says:

      I was going to type “Hear, here” but I have decided to clap instead. Applause, applause! 🙂

      A very good article. There again most of us (75%) know this already. However I dont expect that it will stop most of the newspapers from trying to persuade us otherwise.

    6. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Perceptive quotes from the link at the end (The Guardian).

      “certainly there were no more free lunches.”


      ““If we don’t do something to fix the glaring inequities in this economy, the pitchforks are going to come for us.””

      The fact that things are the same on both sides of the pond, must be down to the “special relationship” that bonds the UK and USA.

      I would suggest that in the case of Scotland, our votes at every election – council by-elections and Holyrood next year – are our pitchforks.

      Labour supporters down south appear to have had a rake in their sheds and found THEIR pitchforks.

      Interesting times…

    7. The Man in the Jar says:

      “Hear, here” how did I manage that? 🙁

    8. Marie Clark says:

      At last, someone who actually can see what is happening, and what’s more, has the courage to say it out loud.

      Well said that man.

      He maybe better watch himself or he could be labelled a cybernat. Or maybe a left wing loony like Corbyn.

    9. Ken500 says:

      Tube strikes, the illegal bombing continues, migrants ‘swarming’. Children being abused, starved and killed. £Billions wasted. Scottish resources being illegally and secretly taken, unequally. Westminster Unionist policies.

    10. Wulls says:

      As one of the very fortunate 25% i am absolutely in agreement with this.
      This is the basic flaw in broken Britain. Every politician earns at least double the £30k banding therefore live in the bubble.
      The vast majority of politicians work in London a high portion of their lives.
      There is another protected bubble.
      Untill Labour sort out their stance and either return to their roots (elect Corbin) or fall into obscurity ( elect Burnham or cooper) this will not be accepted doctrine.

    11. Sunniva says:

      At last, somebody speaks the truth.

      Paul Mason’s post-capitalism makes this point, that the jobs that are being created now are ‘rubbish jobs’ like nail bars or baristas.

      Though what is rubbish about them is the pay, I would have thought…

      Last October Osborne had to borrow another £12 bn because the expect tax receipts didn’t materialise, because despite the rise in employment, the jobs were low pay and didn’t generate sufficient tax.

    12. a supporter says:

      Frank Cottrell Boyce in the Independent communicates the truth in an easily digestible form. I could not believe that MPs were so stupid as to believe the nonsense about Saddam’s WMD. And they were not alone in their stupidity as most of the London commentariat believed it too. Intelligence wherefore wert thou?

    13. Brian Powell says:

      Just been reading Jeremy Corbyn in a comment article in the National.

      On nuclear weapons, Corbyn. said, “Unlike government at Scottish and UK level, as Labour leader I’ll take defence diversification seriously”.

      That was the whole point of Independence and now getting as many powers as possible, it was to get diversification, create new industries to replace weapons.

      This was one of the great criticisms of Labour in Scotland over the last decades, they made no effort to do this.

      So, when he said that he lost my support.

    14. think again says:

      A small contribution to numbers.

      As one of the 45 who rejoiced at the 56 I see I am now one of the 75%.

      Next year at 66 I retire and will be well below 30,000 even on joint income.

      I blame Margaret Thatcher with her greed is good outlook – yes I know I should move on but the present is pretty much the same as the past with the added bonus the “opposition” have become the “abstainers”.

      Independence anyone?

    15. Macart says:

      That’s a keeper.

    16. Lollysmum says:

      Iain MacWhirter was retweeting this story this morning so fair play to him. Seems there’s still a few journalists out there willing to help get the truth out despite the media barons stranglehold on press output.

      Not overly confident of seeing anything come of it so think I’ll just dig my pitchfork out- ready for action 😉

    17. Lanarkist says:

      I read both articles with interest and the thought occurred that you could change the concepts of poverty and independence in the articles and it would still hold true.

      The lack of any recognition or analysis of any possible positives of independence obscured the overall theme of the discussion.

      When 98% of the media either ignore or undermine the concept then we are left without a voice or presence and all perspectives are viewed from within the bubble.

      As with any perspective on poverty so with the concept of independence.

      Interesting comment on the Guardian linked article where one commentator lists the Educational history of all the Guardian Journalists.

      Yep, you guessed it, overwhelmingly privately educated and Oxbridge Graduates. So much for diversity and a plurality of views!

    18. Mac says:

      Austerity is nothing more an elaborate asset transfer of public resources to the private sector.

      Royal Mail, RBS, NHS…all have been either sold under value, (RM/RBS) or are being systematically broken down and sold to the highest bidder.

      Austerity is legalised theft of public assets and shortly the “cupboards will be bare”…then they will come for the “middle class”, just as the weak/vulnerable/poor and working class are being targeted just now.

      Sooner we can rid ourselves of the shambolic excuse for a westminster government the better!!!

    19. Luigi says:

      Aside from 75% of the working population that are struggling, if the UK economy was truly in such good shape and recovering, then why are we still at 0.5% interest, after 6-7 years? (yes, it really has been that long).

      Something just does not seem right, eh?

    20. JLT says:

      Well Rev, that is pretty much what you and many others have highlighted over the last 3 odd years. I wonder how long it will finally take before the rest of the UK cottons on.

      Then you have to ask the question; how long it will be before the other 50% of the Scottish Electorate …cotton on!

    21. Stoops says:

      This article rings sadly true with me. Until quite recently I enjoyed a lucrative career in the oil and gas industry. Six figure salary, perks, bonuses and, to be perfectly honest, I didn’t have to do that much for it. Life was sweet. Poverty was something I read about and occasionally saw on the streets. I almost thought that it was your own fault if you were poor, the old “nobody gave me a hand up” line.

      I got paid off in May when the company I worked for folded. There isn’t a hell of a lot of O&G sector work around at the moment and, despite my ample qualifications, I’m really struggling to find work. Employers in other sectors aren’t interested in an employee who they know will up and leave the minute the industry recovers for a much bigger pay packet.

      Now, all of a sudden, the future is a scary place. The safety nets I assumed were there are either not or they’re more fragile than I thought. The world looks very different from the wrong side if the tracks.

    22. Dr Jim says:

      Because “developed” countries are at the mercy of the buyers and sellers of money and human life, and the setting of the value of money economy against economy, and the price of a brick then changing the system becomes the political football no one really wants to change

      Competition is artificially created to serve the profiteer not the population at large
      Every Government says we need to trade with other Nations and then go about creating systems that make it impossible to do so fairly

      Why is the £ right now at a stupidly overblown £140 to 1 Euro for example, how does a country sell it’s product when Governments behave like this

      Ooh, isn’t it good for going on holiday to Europe, yes, but no shittin good for trade
      Why on earth should a Spaniard buy British when he can buy Chinese for example

      We can’t get a fairer deal in wages because the Government deliberately create imbalance to suit the Markets money men and their friends the Bankers

      Unless you can change the Priorities of Governments for the few to Governance for the many we’re F….d and there shows up the pretence of Democracy which only exists in the hopes and minds of the powerless

      God that was gloomy…sorry

    23. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ah, so this will be why we need more slums, right?

      Income inequalities

      Better Together?

    24. dramfineday says:

      Good article well put. Glad he woke up. As one of the 75% that don’t qualify by a margin I’d offer this, it is better to offer the “have nots” hope rather than take it away, lest one morning you wake up to find they have their hands round your throat and are forcefully taking it from you.

    25. Robert Kerr says:

      It’s the Union bonus. 300 years of Better Together.


    26. Sinky says:

      O/T but BBC still think Labour is the dominant party in Scottish politics.

      I know I am sad but listening to Radio Scotland Big Debate with Gordon Brewer cross examining the sole SNP representative four times on first question but not Labour Party member Prof Richard Kereley who was presented as a non political member of the panel and is in addition to the Labour MSP.

    27. cearc says:


      That comment got modded-off rather quickly!

    28. galamcennalath says:

      I sometimes think folks just don’t appreciate just how far the UK has moved from the Western norm in terms of inequality. A Google for inequality of countries and the Ginni Index shows that the UK & US are out of step with countries across Europe and the likes of Australia.

      Where did the UK go wrong? Almost certainly Thatcher and people looking at the U.S. As a role model. Major, Blair, Brown continued the trend, rather than reverse it. Inequality simply isn’t seen as an issue – especially with Cameron’s lot!

      Well, tackling inequality bloody well should be high on any governments agenda!

    29. Joemcg says:

      And I will bet you my crippling extortionate mortgage that up to 90% of that top 25% were no voters.

    30. faolie says:

      Worth clicking the link, and then clicking the pitchfork link at the end of that article too. Second one was around a year ago, but still worth reading – i.e. still very relevant.

      Oppressed and poor people can only take so much. Add into the mix middle east turmoil and massive migration, and you have a nice little recipe for revolution.

    31. Bob Mack says:

      The Rev excluded, thank heavens —–FOR A JOURNALIST WITH A DEGREE OF INSIGHT!!.
      It is so sad that we pick this up as being remarkable,when it should be the norm.

    32. CameronB Brodie says:

      A number of the big banks have published reports recently, highlighting the increasing risk of worldwide civil disorder, as a result of the widening income gap. In Europe, these pressures are most evident in the southern periphery, at present.

    33. Big Jock says:

      I always thought these song lyrics by Divine Comedy summed up the UK:
      “Lovers watch their backs as hacks in macs
      Take snaps through telephoto lenses
      Chase Mercedes Benz’ through the night (Diana mania ref)
      A mourning nation weeps and wails
      But keeps the sales of evil tabloids healthy
      The poor protect the wealthy in this world”

      Read more: Divine Comedy – Generation Sex Lyrics | MetroLyrics

    34. Big Jock says:

      Joemcg- I suspect you are right.

      Some folk without putting any effort in just voted no because their boss or colleagues were saying it was the right thing to do financially. For us it was a vote for our nationhood, for them it was like picking a mortgage.
      I must have heard countless:” I dont follow politics but I am voting no”. Maybe that’s our problem in this country.

      The uninformed made a decision that overided the informed.

    35. DerekM says:

      good to see someone getting it so a round of applause for Mr Boyce.

      Austerity is a lie to keep the economic cycle broken so the wealth never regenerates and is siphoned off into the hands of the few.

      And yes there is a bubble around the middle earners but that bubble will soon pop as full blown Thatcherism is let loose and they turn their eye to the middle and squeeze it for every penny they can get before the stupid English electorate figure out what they are up to and vote in the other lot of wasters on promises of tax cuts,jeez it would make you weep its like we are stuck in some kind of time loop same old crap different era.

      We have got to get out of this insanity and start using taxation for what it is meant to do,create jobs in the public sector for the unemployed and not these meaningless low paid work fare crap either a real job with a descent pay raising in line with inflation,if you dont let consumers consume in a consumer society then its pretty well done for.

      But then the neo liberals dont care about society to them there is no society.

    36. Brotyboy says:

      I would dispute the 25% figure, in Scotland surely. I thought the mean was around £20k.

    37. John Dickson (@NkosiEcosse) says:

      Certainly a member of that 75% club. Strangely in 2007 after getting my self some extra education and a nice job in an architects and increasing my yearly salary from £18000.00 to £25000.00 I thought I was actually starting to get my head above water.
      Sadly in 2010 the architects made their whole Scottish office redundant. Suffice to say 1 year unemployed (2011) the a year on a contract and then a new job in the highlands for a biomass engineering company my salary has now increased to £25600.00 a whopping 2.6% in 4 years. Maybe highland salaries are lower than the rest of the country, the cost of living there is certainly higher.
      If I had managed to stay at the architects at the same rate of increase on a yearly basis I might just have cracked the £30k barrier this year. sadly i have seen my standard of living deteriorate over the years of Tory rule and unless we get shot of them it is only going to get worse.

    38. Big Jock says:

      For the record I earn £21k (Work in insurance), and haven’t had a pay rise for 5 years. The company think that’s ok.

    39. Luigi says:

      Joemcg says:

      7 August, 2015 at 12:29 pm

      And I will bet you my crippling extortionate mortgage that up to 90% of that top 25% were no voters.

      You could be right, but unfortunately 90% of 25% is only 22.5%, meaning that the other half of the 55% who voted NO were turkeys voting for Christmas. Hopefully the penny will drop eventually.

      Even those 25% are not safe. The top 1% (i.e. the billionaires) will be the last to suffer, but once the poor have been bled dry, the middle classes will be the next in line and so on. The 75% becomes 80% and then 90% as all the resources are siphoned off to keep the banks afloat. The poor and well off NO voters will find out this soon enough if they haven’t cottoned on already. There’s no escape (unless you are a billionaire).

      I’m sure all the UK billionaires have their escape routes planned – just in case!

    40. Another Union Dividend says:

      Also O/T Sinky says at 12.15:

      On Big Debate from Fairmilehead Edinburgh the audience participation was dominated by Dr Scott Arthur who was allowed to attack SNP on several occasions without right of reply and on virtually every question Labour got to put in their tuppence worth after Gordon McDonald MSP (SNP).

    41. gus1940 says:

      I cannot understand why those who are opposed to Austerity don’t look back to the 1930s and The Roosevelt New Deal and come up with proposals for a 21st Century equivalent as an altenative to Austerity.

      After all The US Economy in The Great Depression was in a far worse stete than anything ours has suffered since the 2008 Crash.

      It would certainly be worth a try because Austerity sure as hell ain’t working.

    42. Dr Ew says:

      Just a note to say Frank Cottrell Boyce isn’t really a journalist, but a novelist and scriptwriter . He worked with Danny Boyle on the film ‘Millions’ and on the Olympic opening ceremony. He also wrote what is the best single TV drama of the century so far, the brilliant ‘God on Trial’.

      Not posting to split hairs, more to emphasise that journalists tend to get jaded and cynical but that Cottrell Boyce is an artist and obe of the most foremost writing talents in the UK – hence the clarity and pithy insight.

    43. Lady Arbroath 1320 says:


      I think, only think mind you 😛 , that we might actually have a journalist here who actually gets it.

      Congratulations Frank for having the guts to put down in print your thoughts about austerity and how those NOT facing sanctions,living with tax credits,the poor, disabled or homeless have to live. Now if only more of your compatriots would find a backbone and do the same we as a country may actually begin to start to get somewhere.

    44. Grant says:

      Good article, though 37% of the population aren’t of working age of course.

    45. Robert Peffers says:

      Most of the prols have been saying just what Mr Frank Cottrell Boyce seems to have just realised of late. Thing is no one in government is listening and no one in opposition, until now, had enough intellect to understand and the realisation is proving far too much for their wee, childlike brains to comprehend.

      I am totally amazed at the mental state of the
      Labour leadership contenders who are, “Warning”, about how damaging is the policies of Corbyn and the danger of the new Labour, (cut price), Membership signees. You honestly could not make this stuff up.

    46. Dr Jim says:

      We love on this site to have a go at the BBC for their bias or incompetence or just plain stupidity

      But how about this, Sally McNair on Reporting Scotland while looking at moving pictures describes this scene as follows

      “The Tennis Player Andy Murray and his wife Kim Sears”…baby blah blah blah

      Now who in the known Universe doesn’t know Andy is indeed a Tennis Player, not only that but one of the best in the world and a wee bit recognisable
      ITN SKY BBC London and STV reports all just describe him as Andy Murray coz they know we know

      Shouldn’t have confessed Andy you’ll soon be down to “Local” tennis player has crashed out

    47. Joemcg says:

      Way off topic but jerry sadowitz is doing a run at the festival and in his blurb he says it’s for a good cause, all proceeds are going to the Keep Edinburgh English fund!

    48. Legerwood says:

      Train drivers will be in that 25% earning more than £30,000.

      After training and a probationary period drivers with Scotrail start on a salary of £39,000 do they not?

      Ms Sturgeon and the SNP led the way with their proposals for a limited increase in borrowing over the lifetime of the current UK Parliament. The money was to be used for infrastructure projects to help boost the economy and, by improving infrastructure such as railways and roads, help to make UK more competitive. Shortly after the GE the UK government pulled the plug on a huge tranche of Network Rail projects.The borrowing in year 1 could have been used to fund them. It would also have allowed the houses to be built that the UK so badly needs and a lot more besides.


    49. heedtracker says:

      Where did the UK go wrong?

      Great Britsh class conflict, London centralised socio economics politics, south East of England socio economic and cultural domination of UK, Scotland’s socio economically no more or less significant than Yorkshire to any Westminster MP (listen to lefties like Corbyn), the enormous catastrophic collapse of the giant British Empire heavy industrial market running through and after WW2, no UK economic policy makers capable of coping with losing their world wide and closed imperial markets. Other counties have of course coped with and thrived with change but economically, teamGB since the 50’s and 60’s failed and now has extreme winners and losers and a comfortable middle.

      Which are you and why?

      Talk to people in England who may or may not ever vote at all and Labour is good for public services and the Tories fix the economy. It’s really as simple as that in England. To these non voters, Scotland running Scotland becomes highly personal, makes no sense, irritates, annoys, enrages.. . We all know the rest.

    50. Ali says:

      Much as I agree with him for most of it, given the recent election result I can only assume that he has a very bad memory. We live in the American dream. Those who have vote to keep it. Those who almost have vote “aspirationally” based on the notion that they may have in future. Those who don’t have are screwed.

    51. handclapping says:

      New record required. Try – “Labour build up public assets and the Tories flog them off again”. Just as valid as a description of the Westminster Dance of Death as yours.

    52. nodrog says:

      Spot on Frank Cottrell Boyce. Sometimes the few can be right and the majority wrong but on both the occasions he describes it is indeed the majority that are right. Same idea I am currently reading Paul Mason’s Postcapitalism – A guide to our future. Paul is also spot on.

    53. Fred says:

      A bit off-topic. The photograph of Kezia Dugdale in yesterdays National was a shocker, woke up in a cold-sweat at three in the morning. The mask had momentarily slipped, goodbye Mary Poppins & hello the Wicked Witch of the West. She must be bealin, or the witchy equivalent. 🙂

    54. andy smith says:

      Always said the problem with this country is that we’ve never had heids on sticks!:-)

    55. Les Wilson says:

      Good article in Business for Scotland by Gordon MacIntyre Kemp.

    56. GallusEffie says:

      133 hour working week, 52 weeks of the year.
      £562 a year less than JSA
      Just passed £50,000 in total earnings after 21 years.
      No occupational pension.
      At current levels I would take 9.3 years to earn £30k.

      I can’t even SEE the bubble…

    57. annie says:

      To my shame when the journalist spoke of a friend who had to “sell his plasma” which could damage his health I briefly wondered how selling a TV would damage anyone’s health, then I realised they meant blood.
      I have to say with journalists like Deerin and Cochrane etc with a few good exceptions it is hard to feel sympathy.

    58. orri says:

      Given the existence of automated trams and railways I wonder if the underground drivers have been suckered into providing the motivation for their own replacement?

    59. Wp says:

      Just a little point of info. When the campaign for emancipation of the slaves was in full swing, the only way the slave owners (many of whom sat in both houses) would agree was compensation from the government. The government agreed and paid a total (in today’s equivalent) of £17 billion to people who were already very wealthy. Around ten years later the same government allowed millions of Irish to die or relocate to foreign shores when the potato crop failed as they could not interfere with the market.

    60. velofello says:

      If Corbyn fails to secure the Labour leadership independence is our only option,the other three candidates are Red Tories. Trouble is Corbyn is a Unionist too and independence will be delayed whilst as Labour leader we give him time to show his intentions.

      Corbyn as prime minister would be faced, as was Obama in the USA with the advice/briefings/realities of UK international objectives. I would never believed that Obama would sanction drone attacks on people. Surveillance yes, but firing missiles at people several thousand miles away via a computer monitor! Corbyn would be faced with whether to continue UK personnel for these duties.

      Lets not be diverted or stalled,Scotland’s future is best safeguarded by independence.

    61. Lady Arbroath 1320 says:

      Jon Stewart saying farewell as only Jon Stewart can. 😀

    62. mike cassidy says:

      Obviously, where I live in Fife, most people would need the Hubble telescope to see a glimpse of a £30,000 salary.

      But a look at this list will give people some perspective on the figure.

      Its in easily digestible form — ie, I got lost trying to find the data on the ONS’s own site.

      Didn’t know miners had become so rich!

    63. DrJim says:


      Who’s Corbyn?

      Could I just suggest getting a tight grip for a minute
      Sounds like you’re prepared, yet again, to give the British/English Labour Party another chance, did I say that loud enough Another Chance,

      Well why not,I’ll just cross my fingers tae and if it dizny work wae this wan we’ll wait tae another yin comes along

      Who gives a flying S..t what England does and why should we bother waiting to see
      England are big enough to take care of themselves and if they’re not
      Oh dear how sad never mind

    64. chris kilby says:

      That’ll be the 25% (or thereabouts) who vote Tory. So what are the other 75% playing at?

    65. galamcennalath says:

      I hope sooooo much that Corbyn doesn’t win and Labour down sourf choose a red-Tory Blairite.

      The Labour Party are still a force in Scotland – they get ~25% of the votes.

      With an already weak and weakening Labour, added to everything else that’s happening, we have the perfect storm to achieve independence. A Labour which starts to talk the right talk is a distraction because it can’t deliver. However, it could soak up votes and seats.

      An SNP majority at Holyrood is absolutely essential, without that, the game’s a bogie.

      Does that mean I’m abandoning the English? Well over half of them just voted for ultra right wing parties Tory+UKIP. We have chosen separate paths and need to embark on our separate journeys.

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ll try again, this time leaving out the ‘Z’ word.

      Corbyn is a friend of the Palestinians not Israel. Think he will be allowed to harm the Establishment’s pet project?

    67. Mealer says:

      Over on Newsnet Scotland,Derek Bateman has an excellent interview of Billy Kay.Well worth a listen.

    68. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marie Clark says: 7 August, 2015 at 11:25 am:

      ” … He maybe better watch himself or he could be labelled a cybernat. Or maybe a left wing loony like Corbyn”

      Nah! Marie, He’ll just be an insurgent like the rest of we independence supporters.

    69. Effijy says:

      My God there is a Journalist, in the true sense of the word, here in the UK!

      Brilliant piece of writing straight from the heart and the head.

      Did he get into the country via the Channel Tunnel or on a Smuggler’s Boat?

      Could he be denied asylum here for inciting common sense hatred?

    70. One_Scot says:

      “Only 25 per cent of the population earns more than £30,000 a year”

      If one on four people in Scotland earsn more than £30,000 a year, then I’m a monkeys uncle.

    71. handclapping says:

      Why do you think they gave us income tax?

    72. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mac says: 7 August, 2015 at 12:00 pm:

      “Austerity is nothing more an elaborate asset transfer of public resources to the private sector”.

      Actually, Mac, it began well before the present austerity and even before privatisation of public assets. The beginning was under Labour and achieved by changing mainly direct taxation into mainly indirect taxation.

      We certainly did have indirect taxation as, “Purchase Tax”, but this was levied upon such luxury items as fur coats, expensive foreign perfumes, expensive foreign wines, jewellery and foreign high fashion clothing.

      In fact, until fairly recently, the main taxation burden moving from the richest to the poorest happened more under Labour than it did under the Tories.

      Here’s a few facts in the 1950/60s a person could bank with, for example, the TSB that belonged to the ordinary members but was run by the Trustees. If they went to withdraw their cash they went in a public service vehicle, tram, bus or train, that belonged to the public. If they used the withdrawn cash to pay their household bills the rent was to the local council, the services like water, electricity ad gas were all public service boards.

      If they went abroad on holiday they took a bus to the rail station and flew British Airways, or British European Airway to London and then BOAC, “British Overseas Airways Corporation to their destination. All owned by the public.

      If they had anything delivered it came via a public owned bus, by an, “Iron Horse”, from British Rail or By British Road Services lorry.

      Get the picture now of just how much the Red, Blue and Yellow Tories have filched from the pockets of the people?

    73. Ken500 says:

      Average wage in Scotland £21,000

      Average wage in the UK £25,000

      The majority £30,000 will be in the rest of the UK. Especially London? People in the whole of the UK pay to service these jobs. Buying goods, services, admin etc.

    74. Legerwood says:

      Ken500 @ 7.09 pm

      I think the figures for the average salaries are higher than you have quoted. ONS figures for 2013 showed Scottish average was slightly more than £26,000 and for the UK just above £27,000.

    75. ahundredthidiot says:

      Many comments re wages – and many way off in my opinion.

      My workplace all earn over £30k (for which I am eternally grateful) and I genuinely believe (despite my optimistic side) my place of work, male dominated, west of Scotlandies, were split 50/50 on the referendum.

      Many of them fit the selfish type highlighted in this article – the no voters that is.

      But 50/50 – which is why I thought we would swing it. How can my place be split down the middle last Sept…..arguably high(er) earners….and the Country votes No – I still actually don’t get it. WTF is wrong with people.

    76. T222Deracha says:

      The Tories have been reducing the income needed to start paying 40% tax every year. For 2014/15 it is £31,866, for 2015/16 it will be £31,786. In 2010/11, you could earn £37,400 before paying 40% tax. Looks like the turkeys REALLY have been voting for Christmas!!!. Economic mismanagement from a bunch of dunces!!!

    77. CameronB Brodie says:

      Check out graph 7. 😉

    78. heedtracker says:

      handclapping says:
      7 August, 2015 at 2:50 pm
      New record required

      Hey pointing out the blatant obviousness of the last 100 Scottish years is my super power. In light of that, see tweet below. I like to watch unionist teamGB toryboys, in Embro this time, currently raging at the latest UKOK toryboy are fiscal geniuses stats. Its not the appalling borrowing stats for toryboys y’see, its the SNP MP having the bloody cheek to tweet them.

      Gordon Macdonald MSP
      UK Government debt soars to 112% of GDP. Now the 9th most indebted country in OECD. That’s why they need us to stay!

      Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 3h3 hours ago
      Kevin Hague retweeted
      I’m offering (pro bono) to give @theSNP MP’s a talk on Scotland’s economic relationship with rUK – any takers?

      Its all the silly sweaties fault, want to run your own country you’re so stupid and so on.

    79. Croompenstein says:

      OT – Just learned that RBS will be closing the Maybole branch in November. They don’t give a fuck about local business or the rural community it’s all down to balance sheets and profits. The tories sell the bank at a loss to the taxpayer and already they are cutting jobs and services. Fuck off RBS, fuck right off…

    80. Rock says:

      75% of the population are treated as “plebs”.

      Their votes are take for granted.

      In Scotland, probably even less than 25% might be earning more than £30,000 a year.

      Yet 55% voted No.


    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      Check out graph 7. 😀

    82. dakk says:

      Struggling to get the drive to compose a comment to this after another 9 hrs on my feet.

      Many people doing 50 hrs and earning 12000p/a would not even qualify for tax credits if they have a partner earning roughly the same with no/no young children.

      The workers/people with the best pay and conditions/pensions whom I know tend to be older public sector workers,and as Legerwood said earlier traindrivers(for whom Aslef seem to have secured excellent conditions).

      Perhaps the time has come for a guaranteed basic income set at a realistic level,paid for by train drivers 🙂

      I believe Switzerland is to hold a referendum on instituting this in 2016.(not the train drivers bit).

      I don’t know if Corbyn has a policy on this,and wouldn’t trust Labour even then.

      Did Frank Boyce support Scottish Independence or like Corbyn and most Labour lefties ‘ much prefer things to stay the same’ ?,and thus reducing our chances of finding a better way.

      I know I’ll get pelters for this comment but I’m too tired to reply,so fire in.

    83. chris kilby says:

      @ Rock:

      “75% of the population are treated as ‘plebs’.

      “Their votes are take for granted.

      “In Scotland, probably even less than 25% might be earning more than £30,000 a year.

      “Yet 55% voted No.


      Simple. We fear change. ‘Better Together’ ruthlessly exploited that. I seriously doubt that will work a second time. Not after everything that’s happened. And what hasn’t happened. Namely the non-delivery of ‘The Vow.’

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @Luigi says: 7 August, 2015 at 12:05 pm:

      “Aside from 75% of the working population that are struggling, if the UK economy was truly in such good shape and recovering, then why are we still at 0.5% interest, after 6-7 years!?

      Err! Luigi, quite obviously the only reason is that anything other than 0.5% just doesn’t suit that other 25%.

      The plain fact is that I that6-7 years of austerity we have all been in together the 75% have seen their incomes, (in real terms), decrease. While the 25% have more than doubled, (in real terms), their actual wealth.

      The whole purpose of the exercise has been to take from the poorest to give to the richest. What else could you expect when all the Westminster Establishment political parties are drawn from the same background of privilege and wealth?

    85. dakk says:


      I remember during referendum campaign a TV interview with a homeless man saying he would vote NO as ‘we had to much to lose’

    86. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      Check out graph 7.”

      If I understand it right, 20% are in the richest fifth in Scotland compared to 28% in London and the South East of South Britain.

      So it seems 80% of us are “plebs” in Scotland.

      Out of the 45% who voted Yes, I would say about 40% came from the “plebs”.

      Out of the 55% who voted No, 40% came from the “plebs”.

      Out of the 40% “plebs” voting No, I would say 20% are the die hard elderly British nationalists, the vast majority of whom will never change their minds.

      That leaves 20% to be convinced of the advantages of being independent.

      As I have been saying for a long time, this 20% come from the poor unemployed and working class, frightened to death by the likes of Asda.

      We must not waste our time and money “embracing” the 90% Tory middle classes and the 70% British Nationist elderly.

      The 30% elderly who voted Yes are the veterans of the independence movement and don’t need any convincing.

    87. Phronesis says:

      A commendable article.It’s eternally disappointing that other MSM outlets do not give print space to the alternative economic vision of the failed ideology of austerity.

      A political narrative repeated in a compliant MSM that pits self-responsibility against solidarity(redistributive measures that reflect social and political values, equal-opportunity guarantees, compensation for labour and financial market failures) to inure us to the effects of welfare cuts that pile more misery onto poorer households (the poorest 1/10th lose more than 12% of their net income) is a gross misrepresentation of the cost and function of the welfare spend and will lead to deep and irreversible social divisions.

      ‘Capital is not an immutable concept; it reflects the state of development and prevailing social relations of each society…Income disparities are partly the result of unequal pay for work and partly of much larger inequalities in income from capital, which are themselves a consequence of the extreme concentration of wealth…concentration is already a source of powerful political tensions, which are often difficult to reconcile with universal suffrage’ Piketty (2014) Capital in the 21st Century

      Creating equality of opportunity will not happen under this UKOK set up- their MO is to create opportunity for the 0.1% using fiscal smoke and mirrors. The squeezed middle who thought it a good idea to vote them in will come to regret their voting choice as they pay for their university education, NHS treatment, higher % taxes, rising food prices, child care. UKOK is busying itself with re-structuring societal DNA- a large chunk will be coded for poverty- to be passed on from one generation to the next.

    88. galamcennalath says:

      Rock says

      ““Yet 55% voted No”

      What everyone else says, fear etc..

      However, I am become more and more convinced that a lot of people see each vote in isolation. Then don’t see the wider picture or the way things interconnect. It may also explain why some people change so easily, example voting SNP in 2007 and 2011, but still returning Labout to WM in 2010.

      With regard to the IndyRef, let’s face it … a huge chunk of the 55% didn’t seem to appreciate they were guaranteeing Scotland would be ruled over by Tories with no mandate sooner or later. The probability was sooner, and the reality very soon!

      My believe is 15% wanted Tories, another 15% were Unionists who would accept Tories as part of the UK system … And a massive 25% just didn’t understand what a NO vote would mean. Even now, with all the crap from the media and BBC and Unionists, that ~25% probably still don’t realise that being rules by Cameron and cronies is all their f*cking fault!

    89. Rock says:

      chris kilby,

      “Simple. We fear change.”

      Those on very low incomes actually voted for change.

      With the possible exception of some who were frightened to death by the likes of Asda.

      Those who don’t want change are the middle classes and the elderly British nationalists.

      I don’t want to play the race card, but the vast majority of the English living here form part of these two No voting sections of society.

      They are happy to vote SNP for better governance, but they are highly unlikely to ever vote Yes to independence.

      UK Tories of either colour win Westminster elections by targetting swing voters in middle England.

      We can only win independence by targetting and convincing the poorest sections of our society.

      The RIC succeeded in reaching those parts of society whereas the WOS boycotting Yes Scotland nice guys failed miserably in their attempts to win over middle class and elderly voters.

      Better Together knew who to target.

      Why didn’t Yes Scotland? Was an enquiry ever launched?

    90. manandboy says:

      Let’s face it – we are at war with the Establishment. It’s that simple. And there must be only one winner.

    91. Rock says:


      “I remember during referendum campaign a TV interview with a homeless man saying he would vote NO as ‘we had to much to lose’”

      God save him!

      But if it was on an unionist TV interview, he would have been told what to say and given a few pounds to say it.

    92. Rock says:


      “And a massive 25% just didn’t understand what a NO vote would mean. Even now, with all the crap from the media and BBC and Unionists, that ~25% probably still don’t realise that being rules by Cameron and cronies is all their f*cking fault!”

      Which section of society do you think this 25% come from?

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      What graph 7 tells me, is that Scotland has the UK’s 5th highest regional % in the top income groups and the UK’s 2nd lowest proportion in the lowest income groups. Too many folk are just comfortable enough so as not to see the appalling need for change. All they can see are their own priorities in front of them. They certainly weren’t prepared to consider the cataclysmic disaster self-determination was painted as by Project Fear, including the civil service.

    94. Bob Mack says:

      You having trouble with haemorrhoids mate?
      You are one grumpy gent over the last few nights.

    95. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock –

      You’re good at providing nice round percentages to simplify your arguments, but you never provide sources for those stats.

      Are we to assume that they are based on gut-feeling in response to actual contact with real voters, perhaps via extensive street-work/door-to-door canvassing etc?

      And as for ‘I don’t want to play the race card but…’ (@9.22) I hope you don’t push that one any further – it’s been done to death.

      P.S. You’ve started placing the word ‘pleb’ inside quotation marks. Why? You didn’t bother before now.

    96. Rock says:


      “Lets not be diverted or stalled,Scotland’s future is best safeguarded by independence.”

      Fully agree.

      Even if Corbyn becomes PM, he would not do anything that would harm England’s interests and benefit Scotland.

      The win-win situation would be Scotland fully independent in 2020, Corbyn PM of rest of the UK re-nationalising the railways and the rest of the public utilities!

    97. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “Too many folk are just comfortable enough so as not to see the appalling need for change. All they can see are their own priorities in front of them.”


      But assuming we have at least 50% not comfortable enough, we need to convince every single one of them.

      If more than 50% are comfortable enough, then there is little hope.

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      I simply don’t have the polling/campaigning experience to comment. As I suggested to Will though, society is too complex to codify as black hats and white hats. We also live in very interesting times. Who knows where the next ‘shock’ will come from?

    99. galamcennalath says:

      Rock says

      “Which section of society do you think this 25% come from?”

      I’m guessing, but when Tories (& LibDems) are so unpopular, the 55% must contain a lot of people who didn’t understand they were ‘voting Tory on 18th Sept’.

      Why didn’t they know? It was the talk of the Yes steamy that No meant a Tory government, if not immediately, soon. Clearly that message didn’t get through to everyone. The fear and the false promises did, though.

      The 25% (I guess again) have to be folks who believe the papers and TV, believed Gordon Brown, probably still vote Labour, rarely or never online, typically older than average. They certainly won’t be typical Tories because for them, NO wasn’t a mistake.

      As far as I’m concerned, ‘they voted Tory’. The tragedy is, they didn’t appreciate that. Now we have the Tories and if IndyRef2 is soon, while Labour are useless, we need to get everyone to accept that there will be no Etonian posh boy austerity loving poor bashing Tories after independence. The homegrown Scottish variety are a bit more palatable, and are fewer in number!

    100. Big jock says:

      I think we can paint a 100 reasons why people voted no. Fundamentally I think it was apathy towards self knowledge education and lack of vision. Passion for your nation ends at Murrayfield and Hampden for some Scots.

    101. Robert Peffers says:

      @gus1940 says: 7 August, 2015 at 1:50 pm:

      “I cannot understand why those who are opposed to Austerity don’t look back to the 1930s and The Roosevelt New Deal and come up with proposals for a 21st Century equivalent as an altenative to Austerity.”

      You don’t actually believe all that USA propaganda do you, Gus? It’s absolute claptrap. Real history tells the true story. The USA dragged itself out of the Great Depression by selling the WWII allies arms and supplies. I’ve posted the facts, with cites, several times on this forum and I’ll do so again now : –

      In the 1930s the USA Congress, under the presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, passed several, “Neutrality Acts”, in an attempt to maintain neutral status in the European conflicts. The first of these, “Neutrality Acts”, prohibited the sale of arms, or the making of loans, to the belligerent countries. The significant Neutrality Act of 1937 allowed trade with other countries ”under the condition that American ships were not used”. This became known as the, “cash-and-carry” principle. Then, in November 1939, it was amended to become , “The Neutrality Act”, (1939).

      However, if you read the act, the first line begins, “In defense of the US”. A clear admission that the USA Congress knew and admitted that they were acting to defend the USA and you cannot claim to be defending yourself unless you know you are actually being threatened. In short the USA were fully aware that they were actually part of the European conflict. In essence the USA were selling arms to the allies and this was how the USA began to pull themselves out of, “The Great Depression”.

      Basically the 1937 Act had allowed warring countries to purchase all goods except arms but they could, however, purchase important resources such as oil from the United States. Providing the purchaser, “carried,” the goods on non-American ship and paid for them with ready, “cash”, Hence the term the, “cash-and-carry” principle”.

      The 1939 Neutrality Act, (This also began, “In Defense of the US), renewed, “The cash-and-carry principle”, but expanded the policy to include arms sales. American ships were still not allowed to “carry” the weapons to foreign ports. Cash-and-carry was expanded just months before the U.S. Entered the war. Congress revoked the ban on arming American merchant vessels on Oct. 17, 1941. Then repealed the ban on American ships entering combat zones in November, 1941.

      In late 1940 US Congress, (March 1941), passed, “The Lend-Lease Act”, after the ready cash provided by the, “Cash & Carry Act”, dried up. This became the principal means for providing U.S. military aid to foreign nations during World War II.

      The Act allowed the president to transfer arms, ( or any other defense materials), to, “the government of any country whose defense the President deemed vital to the defense of the United States”. This allowed the transfer of supplies without compensation to Britain, China, the Soviet Union and other countries. This act permitted the United States to support its war interests without being overextended in battle.

      The United States did not come to actually fight their own corner until after the Japanese bombed the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941. This was Japan’s declaration of war on the USA and was followed, days later, by Hitler’s Declaration of War on the USA. So all that propaganda they came to, “Save our bacon”, is pure and utter lies. The 1939, Neutrality Act clearly states it was, “In defense of the US”. Incidentally the one and only Nation that paid off their Lend/Lease was the UK. On 31 December, the UK made a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and to discharge the last of its loans from World War II.

      BTW: during WWII and right up to before Pearl Harbour the USA, under The Cash & Carry Act, was selling scrap iron to Japan.

      This was what Japan was using in their steel manufacturig and no doubt parts of the Japanese fleet and aircraft that attacked Pearl Harbour used that scrap iron.

      You could call that, “Ironic”.

    102. dakk says:

      Rock 9.26

      ‘ If it was on an unionist TV interview ‘

      It couldnae no be !

      Cameron B Brodie. 9.50

      I thought that may be what you are getting at and I agree.

      See that higher public spending per capita we’re told that Scotland gets which we pay for with Scotlands revenues sent to London.

      That’s the ‘English gold’ that bought and sold just enough people in Scotland to retain British state control over Scotland.

      Workaday people,mostly older(some who are teachers),who have holiday homes in Spain and employ maids to clean their homes.
      It’s almost like Victorian times,I call them the nouveau riche.

      Before anyone starts,I’m not saying all teachers are in this position. I like teachers, some of my best friends are teachers 🙂

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Big jock says:
      “Fundamentally I think it was apathy towards self knowledge education and lack of vision.”

      I agree, that covers a lot of NO voters.

      The two different things, though …. Couldn’t be bothered understanding what was going on with how it actually effected them … and, no imagination to visualise a better society.

      Hard to do anything about lack of imagination …. But education is possible if gentle persuasion is applied! We need to get through to a lot more people.

    104. Finnz says:

      I do not believe we have to convince the ones that have voted for this state of affairs, I believe we have to persuade those who have given up on politics entirely as a consequence of this state of affairs to start making their voice heard.

      The Tories won with only 37% of the vote on a 66% turnout.

      That is a truly shocking statistic and clearly demonstrates the ‘ennui’ that is a result of the constant 24/7 coverage of the minutiae of politics in this country.

    105. dakk says:

      @ myself

      ‘some of my best friends are teachers’

      Some of my best friends WERE teachers !

    106. Faltdubh says:

      Some very positive news.

      Means nothing, but out of my group of pals. It was 10-2 to Yes. The No voter has now said he will vote Yes in the next one and he voted SNP at the last election. He realises what a huge mistake it was, I tried, we all tried, but he was a relucant British nationalist, but he said himself “They’ve done nothing and I’m ever so sorry for not voting yes”

      Voted SNP last election and is firmly Yes.

      We only need 200k next time.

      I’d rather forget about the English settlers in Scotland. Majority of them will never be won over. Never.

      The bairns, a small majority of Scots, and chuck in the white settlers/European 25% of them each and we’re almost there.

    107. Marga says:

      CameronB Brodie – banks and the risk of civil disorder in the south of Europe.

      It depends what you mean by civil disorder – it could be as simple as people democratically demanding independence or getting angry and standing up for their rights, mostly through peaceful demonstrations and founding new politics.

      Speaking from Spain, there is no sign at all of civil disorder. The only kind I can see is the passing by the majority government of muzzling legislation and harsh reprisals against independence and other civic movements – for example, peacefully waving independence flags (estalladas) in football stadiums is being dealt with by the Anti-Violence committee, and FC Barcelona is due to be heftily fined.

      The establishment is longing for a bit of violence so it can act, but for me the most foreseable risk if any will be basically provoked by them.

    108. ronnie anderson says:

      C Mon folks give this crowdfunder some serious attention.

      Boorach needs our help.

    109. Lollysmum says:

      Harmonium from Usher hall being livestreamed now

    110. @Lollysmum

      It was good.

    111. ronnie anderson says:

      Ave went to sleep on this thread I hope I dont hear Rock ah bye baby.

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @Wp says: 7 August, 2015 at 4:48 pm:

      ” … Around ten years later the same government allowed millions of Irish to die or relocate to foreign shores when the potato crop failed as they could not interfere with the market”.

      It is not widely known but the Potato Famine, (1846 to roughly 1856), affected the agricultural communities of the Hebrides and the western Scottish Highlands. These had become over-reliant on the potato crop and it was repeatedly devastated by the potato blight. This was all part of a wider food crisis that faced Northern Europe during the mid-1840s. The best known manifestation was the Great Irish Famine. Compared to its Irish counterpart the Scottish Famine was less extensive (the at risk population being never more than 200,000).

      It also took a lot less lives due to quick and great charitable work by the rest of Scotland that thus saw relatively little starvation. However, the way the charitable relief was given caused destitution and malnutrition amongst the recipients.

      A government enquiry suggested no other solution than to reduce the affected area’s population by emigration to Canada or Australia. Highland landlords oversaw the emigration of around 6,000 of their tenants. Mainly to Canada but many highlanders went their own way to other places in the Scottish Lowlands or sometimes further afield. An estimated 90,000 went from the Western Highlands and Western Isles between 1841 and 1861.

    113. Dr Jim says:

      George Gideon Osborne

      Will be then next Prime Minister

      Clears your mind….eh

    114. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock –

      We’re so lucky to have you around: to point out our shortcomings; compile handy lists, boldly naming bad influences in our midst; state the obvious ways in which ‘we’ can achieve independence, and, last but not least, cheer us up generally with your topical sense of humour and sparkling wit.

      It’s hard to imagine this place would fare without your input. 🙂

      Anyway, if you’re still around, I’d be grateful for a response to my questions @ 10.00 p.m.

    115. Grendel says:

      “Joemcg says:
      7 August, 2015 at 12:29 pmAnd I will bet you my crippling extortionate mortgage that up to 90% of that top 25% were no voters.”

      I guess that puts me in the very small 10% of the 25% then.

      Over the last few years I have been lucky in that my salary has increased. On paper I suppose you could say I’m doing alright, if your basing your assessment solely on income. Unable to get a mortgage though, my eyes have been opened to the rip-off world of private let property. There is no social housing available, and none being constructed. The present fad of building socially affordable housing fails to address the fact that many people, even those with good incomes, do not have the required good credit history to give them even a sniff of a mortgage.
      These long bloody years of financial crisis and austerity have left many people trapped in a sea of debt that they cannot get out of. For many, even those with “good” incomes, their former commitments are strangling them, to the extent they are in as precarious a position as those who earn far, far less.
      Who can blame them then for succumbing to Project Fear’s relentless negativity, telling them that if they thought they were bad now, independence would be so much worse.
      I voted Yes despite that. My position financially was not rosy then, and isn’t much better now, but I was willing to accept that the decision I was being asked to make was bigger than simply the difference of a few quid in my pocket. While others were counting their small change I could see the bigger picture.

    116. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Man in the jar
      Behave yourself. Next you will be wandering around and pointing at things and exclaiming “I say old chap” just keep to clapping. The dug will dae fine.

    117. Tackety Beets says:

      No voters @55%

      They are all walks of life Not just the well off .I do not want to be doom and gloom, but what is most worrying for me is the lack of FACTS understood /known by so many of the 55%

      Last week I had a chat with a friend of many years. He served his time doon the mines in Ayrshire where he belongs. A general good guy etc
      I thought he was a probable YES after our discussions this time last year .
      He admits Scotland has been badly treated all his life etc etc yet judging by our conversation he votedNo and still is and probably always will be . WTF ! Our tone got a bit edgy as he, like others I have spoken with , clearly had an issue with Currency , SNP lies etc All the stuff we know a crap!

      My concern is simply , how the feck are we going to reach out with FACTS to these types / people.

      Thanks to the massive afforts of Our Rev Campbell , bless you my son , and all who were involved we do have the famous WBB awaiting a wee update and re-print as soon as Ref2 date is announced.

      Meantime it is in our gift to engage with everyone “nicely” on facts as our conversation flows.


      Pleb 75%

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I can’t find the article that was reporting these bank studies, which I think were all basically telling the 1% to baton down the hatches.

      There was a time when European welfare states had explicitly stated redistributive ambitions. Reducing income inequality was considered a legitimate policy objective in its own right. Over the past decades, however, such egalitarian ambitions have given way to more complex aspirations framed in terms like social inclusion. Equality of opportunity is now deemed rather more relevant than equality of outcomes. Yet ‘old-style’ outcome inequality reduction seems to have re-entered via the back door in the guise of the social indicators adopted by European governments to help gauge progress in the field of social inclusion. Prominent among those are indicators with respect to income inequality and relative income poverty. Hence, in officially endorsing these indicators, European governments have in effect re-avowed the importance of reducing income inequality as a policy objective (Atkinson et al., 2002; Marlier et al, 2007). However, little justification is given. Lower relative poverty and income inequality seem to be considered desirable goals for their own sake. A limited degree of income inequality is widely seen to be a core attribute of the European Social Model and a key dimension on which Europe distinguishes itself from the United States and other advanced economies…..

    119. liz g says:

      OT for those of you who tweet
      Apparently there is a competition going on between
      Sam Heughen (Outlander Guy & Yesser) and John Barrowman (him o’ the glakit jaket)
      It’s a radio times thing
      A wee distraction and a bit of satisfaction that we all could use…..Have Fun

    120. CameronB Brodie says:

      Marga, sorry.

    121. call me dave says:

      I’ve been spluttering and gargling trying to make Paul Robson ‘basso profundo’ like noises since teatime but it ain’t working…I don’t suppose Stevie the ‘rocket man’ will be popping his stuff for me anytime soon. 🙁

      I’ll just have to convince my acquaintances and others I meet about the advantages of independence in my usual mode.

      Anyhoo! I couldn’t help it…strayed into enemy territory… mentally twiddling my thumbs on the new thread.

      Glimpsed this in the discarded paper rack in the cafe Friday morning. 🙁

    122. Iain More says:

      Well I have gone from being one of the 45% that voted Yes to one of the 75% that are considered lazy disease ridden etc subsidy junkie scroungers. I suppose it is what they mean by Bitter Together or is it the Brit Nat notion of progress?

      I despair because I know no less than 5 Yes voters who have said eff it and are filling out emigration forms for Oz and NZ respectively. The final straw for 2 of them was getting was being effectively gazumped on a house bid by snot rags from the SE England who will use that house as nothing more than a holiday home for two weeks of the year until retirement. The other 3 have been handed redundancy notices in the last month – so much for the Brit Economy eh.

      I don’t blame any of them for saying eff it since they all have young families.

    123. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It’s now (yaaawn) 00.48, so, I guess ‘Rock’ has gone for now. Nae answers… 🙁

      Never mind. Here’s a wee tune to entertain us until he resurfaces –

      Blondie, ‘The Tide Is High’

    124. ahundredthidiot says:

      Ok folks, I need to be careful here, senior management meeting in my place – average earnings 70k plus – had an honesty sesh before sept last year – ten people – 60/40 in favour of no. think about that please. our problem is brainwashed effwits – not high earners

    125. ArtyHetty says:

      Here is my penny’s worth, scuse the pun, sorry!

      Whatever the ‘average’ wage for any particular country within ukok, or region, it is, I would think based on an individual basis, so if you have say 3 adults on 20k, in one household that is, well 60k.

      The so called ‘benefit cap’ is per household, not per individual, so if no one in that household has a job, and all therefore have to rely on state handouts, they are quite simply plunged into poverty.

      Going on what my sis says, in NE England, 15k is a good wage! Cripes what was that about pitch forks?

    126. call me dave says:

      Aah! Blondie just as I was contemplating the land of nod you mention Clint Eastwood…. Oh!

      Now that’s better got all the vinyl versions, the tapes and the CD’s. Love the shoes… 🙂

      Must come clean about the shoes one day. Anyhoo!

      The scale of the by-election defeat with some wards seeing labour outvoted two to one by the SNP in first preference votes has brought the bigger picture for Labour in Glasgow into focus.

      The by election result following the General Election wipe-out has lead to increased speculation that Labour will lose all Holyrood constituency seats next year and struggle to keep the current three on the regional list.

      Labour trailed by more than 1000 votes in Craigton, which is in the Pollok seat held by Johann Lamont.

    127. Dal Riata says:

      So the Glasgow by-election results *did* get a wee (very) mention from oor pals at PacQ when Mally Sagnusson gave it the quick once-over about two-thirds into Friday evening’s (mis)Reporting Scotland.

      Mally’s snidy last comment about one of the results being returned on a turnout of only 14 point-something% (which is, truth be told, a pretty shitey turnout, but, hey, that’s democracy and all that!) got me into shoutin’-at-the-telly-like-a-nutter mode, once again, with an “Aye, and so? Ha! GIRFUYz!”, being flung its way.
      (Note: the “GIRFUYz” was directed at BBC Scotland, not Mally Sagnusson!)

    128. call me dave says:

      Ruthie in tank top…er! Not quite but you get the picture. 🙂

      Before a manifesto has been printed or a vote cast, leader Ruth Davidson, has announced (via twitter as these things are now) that the party has “secured” an MSP on the Glasgow list for next year’s Holyrood election.

      And because the job has been done and the seat has been impressively secured nine months before polling day, Ruth is off to the Lothians to bolster the party there. At this rate, that extra seat should also be in the bag in a fortnight, so, who knows, perhaps the leader will soon be on the move again to secure yet further success.

      Both Ms Davidson and her predecessor, Annabel Goldie, have many admirable qualities and appear to be decent, good-humoured people.

      But such is the state of the Scottish Conservatives that their leaders tend not to be judged by the same standard as all other party leaders: i.e. their ability to win votes.

    129. Petra says:

      @ Rock at 9:22 Rock

      I agree with what you have to say Rock especially in relation to the vast majority (74%) of rUK individuals who have relocated to Scotland voting NO for an independent Scotland (at least 375,000 people based on 2011 statistics …. extremely outdated in light of recent migration reports).

      Shame that you feel that you have to apologise on here for (denying) playing the ‘race card’. Race card!! This site constantly outlines statistical data and that is all it is … statistical data. Data that will hopefully enlighten us / help us to acquire our Independence.

      I’ll mention statistical data too and also some facts that haven’t been researched officially but should / could be on here.

      Scotland has become an EXTREMELY attractive new homeland for individuals reaching their twilight years (previously working and paying tax elsewhere …… rUK, EU and further afield). We can see this as being a compliment (fair, just and progressive country) or a real challenge (an ongoing and in fact never ending drain to our economy). And before reaching the ‘care / medical benefits’ relating to living in Scotland it’s a no brainier to point out that Scotland is one of the most beautiful and safest countries in the World to live in and that properties in Scotland sell for peanuts in comparison to other parts of the UK.

      We provide free prescriptions, eye testing and free home care (to some extent). Our home care support, in particular treatment of Alzheimer’s patients, is FAR superior (not perfect) to other areas in the UK. Our professional carers go through a stringent (constantly being updated) training regime, background reports and so on. In other words if there is anywhere in the UK you want to reside in when you become elderly or infirm Scotland is the place to be. No research has been carried out to this effect. The SNP will say nought for all the obvious reasons.

      I’ve found through carrying out my own informal research programmes, latterly on the Island of Arran last week, that the vast majority (not 74% …rather 89%) of rUK residents living in Scotland now will NEVER vote YES for Independence at all.

      I’m not saying give up on them but I doubt we’ll ever get anything like 5% of this vote no matter what we do. Their allegiance to the Union is absolutely entrenched. I also found that they, mostly, were extremely happy to have what they deemed to be the best of both worlds and it suited them, wealthy as they are, as the Tory (or Labour) austerity cuts wouldn’t affect them.

      I don’t agree with you Rock when you say the focus should be on ” targeting and convincing the poorest in society.” I reckon that the poorest in Scottish society have in the main already voted YES. By saying that I recognise that we still have to get ourselves out there and spread the ‘educational’ message. More than anything now our job is to encourage them to continue to vote.

      Many NO voters came from the home owning, degree type holding voters. Did having a mortgage (currency, economy, pensions) really worry them? Did the fact that they ‘seemed’ to be more intelligent (had a degree) mean that they had bothered to check out all of the facts or not? To my mind this is the group that we should be targeting now. This is the (a lazy) group that have probably been totally brainwashed by the MSM. Get some of them onboard and they’ll pass the message around. More than anything we really need to have broadcasting devolved to Scotland.

      @ Marga at 11:07pm

      Marga thanks for taking the time to contact us on Wings. What you have to say is very interesting indeed and I reckon that Westminster is lining up to totally suppress the SNP / supporters too. Time will tell. Keep in touch. Let us know what’s ongoing in Spain.

      @ Les Wilson at 3:56pm

      Les many thanks for posting that article. Just about sums up what’s going on and how to go forward now. A must read for everyone.

      @ GallusEffie at 3:57

      Effie what I have to say about your situation (and thousands of others) would take all night. I’ll get back to you xx

    130. call me dave says:

      ‘It’s good news week’ 1965: Remember him?

    131. Marcia says:

      Dal Riata

      When there were quite low turnouts that helped Labour as their core vote was like having a having a starter for 10. These days were don’t know what their core vote is.

    132. Marcia says:

      were = they

    133. john king says:

      Bob Peffers says
      “On 31 December, the UK made a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and to discharge the last of its loans from World War II.”

      You forgot to mention the year Bob!

      It was 31/12/2006 and our prime minister was Tony Blair,
      A little scam Arthur Daily would have been proud of,

      So what do we have, we have a United States with an Atlantic fleet, no wait a minute, NO Atlantic fleet, selling rust buckets built during the first world war, which were due to be sent to the scrap yards “loaned” to the UK,

      destroyers which were of dubious value given the outdated technology on them, only when Britain developed A.S.D.I.C (known to the Americans as SONAR short for anti submarine detection investigation committee (named after the group of American British and French scientists who invented it during the first world war.

      So when Britain finally managed to create a working ship mounted A.S.D.I.C. those ships “gifted” by the Americans suddenly proved of value and did indeed break the wolfpacks in the North Atlantic, but a nice little side effect was that they effectively provided a defence for the Eastern seaboard of America which was otherwise undefended by any serious surface vessels and in reality the American coastguard was their only defence from German attacks on the east coast.

      So between the convoy protection vessels in the North, the British capital vessels in the Caribbean, and Gibraltar the Americans had a nice little buffer to German attacks on New York Boston and of course Washington.

      So the net outcome was they made US pay to protect THEM,

      And as part of the price of “Lend Lease” Britain gave up the island Diego Garcia, to the Americans for a giant airbase dispossessing the indigenous population of their home, and to justify the action Britain described the Chagossians as non indigenous given that they were a mixture of African Indian and Malay, just think about that, could they dispossess the Scots the same way?

    134. john king says:

      Ian Brotherhood (snigger)
      “We’re so lucky to have you around: to point out our shortcomings; compile handy lists, boldly naming bad influences in our midst; state the obvious ways in which ‘we’ can achieve independence, and, last but not least, cheer us up generally with your topical sense of humour and sparkling wit.

      It’s hard to imagine this place would fare without your input. 🙂

      Anyway, if you’re still around, I’d be grateful for a response to my questions @ 10.00 p.m.”

      Ooh that’ll leave a mark. 🙂

    135. Pod says:

      You can point at my shortcoming all you like but you’re not seeing it. :-p

    136. Fred says:

      Ken Macintosh is opposed to more powers for Holyrood on the grounds that in twenty years time we might have a reactionary government. What have we now? might one enquire and why vote for Zoomer Macintosh at all.

    137. bowanarrow says:

      The obvious being preached to the oblivious.
      If the labour party carry on doing what they are doing
      and the SNP don’t start organize its grass roots
      support Scotland will not need to bother with
      independence, we will have the NEW NEW SOCIALIST
      LABOUR PARTY back.
      No need for independence then.
      Lets just get back to the way it was, before we had
      to think and talk about alternatives.
      Tick Tock…The Scottish peoples enemy.
      When are the SNP going to act?

    138. Petra says:

      @ Robert Peffers 10:40pm and John King at 7:32am

      Thanks to you both for the most informative posts. I found them to be particularly interesting as I had just recently been rereading diaries left by a relative. He joined the Navy in November 1938, aged 17, and was in Port Said with the Middle East Fleet when the Captain informed them that they were heading back to the UK as they were now at War. In his diary he says ”I remember his (the Captains) words to this day. He said some of us have been training for weeks, some months and some for years for War. We are now at War.” It took 10 days for them to get home whereby they were assigned to Dover Patrol. Shortly after picking up German Airmen, who were stranded on a raft, the ship hit a mine and sunk killing most of the crew including the Captain.

      This relative of mine was given two weeks survivors leave and returned to Maryhill to visit his parents. He was then sent to Scapa Flow to join the crew of the HMS Newcastle. Over the next four years or so his ship formed part of the convoys that travelled to places like Murmansk, Russia, Freetown, South Africa and Malta (bomb alley) where the Newcastle was hit by a torpedo (repairs carried out in Port Said and Bombay).

      He also refers to patrolling South America / the East Coast of America for 9 months with repairs being carried out to the Newcastle in Boston which afforded him time off to visit relatives in Hartford, Connecticut.

      I’d never been able to figure out why they were ‘patrolling’ the East Coast of South / North America at all but your post has clarified that to some extent.

      His diaries are full of fascinating information about time scales, places visited, shore leave, sending his pay home to his mother including his ‘rum quota’ as he didn’t drink, a fight in a bar in Africa where he got his front teeth knocked out and so on. I’d also like to mention something that I found to be very interesting. He says that when the Newcastle went in for a major refit the crew were transferred to other ships (he served on 4 ships overall). When the War ended he was Petty Officer on the Patroller Aircraft Carrier which was stripped in Clydebank and filled with bunk beds such as in the hanger (every spare place). They then set off for Guam to pick up black US troops as the US Navy preferred the British Navy to do this for them. He says that it was only after the War that US troops mixed (I wonder if he was right about that?)

      He was 24 when the War ended and returned home to look after two teenage siblings as his parents had died during that time.

      Anyway I hope I haven’t bored everyone with this story. Robert / Johns posts just triggered some memories.

    139. ian says:

      As i live in France its become quite obvious where the real problems come from in the uk.House prices,heating prices and Council tax.As a rule of thumb apart from exceptions such as paris the above are aprox.half to two thirds less than the uk.Wages in France are lower but pensions and benefits are a good bit higher.It does’nt seem to be so easy to get caught in this horrendous poverty trap that has become to common in the uk.
      My wife and i earn aprox.15000 euros a year in total but dont have any debt its hardly a fortune but we get by fine.Unless something is done about house prices ect things are only going to get worse in the uk.

    140. HandandShrimp says:

      Ken Macintosh is opposed to more powers for Holyrood on the grounds that in twenty years time we might have a reactionary government. What have we now? might one enquire and why vote for Zoomer Macintosh at all.


      I think Ken jumped the shark with that piece of Unionist mendacious twaddle. That and “I am just like Corbyn…except for the policies”

      Even more disturbing is that Kezia SNP very bad Dugdale is the only alternative.

      Total madness.

    141. Petra says:

      Interesting Ian. It’s clear that we’re being totally ripped off in the UK. If we don’t get Independence in the near future we’re planning to relocate to France, Spain or New Zealand. As far away from Westminster as we can get.

    142. Again Stu, if you were actually concerned with a solution to poverty you’d be shouting my solution from the roof-tops.

    143. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “@Rock –

      You’re good at providing nice round percentages to simplify your arguments, but you never provide sources for those stats.”

      I am only giving my views based on my understanding of the situation.

    144. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “You’ve started placing the word ‘pleb’ inside quotation marks. Why? You didn’t bother before now.”

      Looking back, I had used them in some comments but not in others.

      You asked me my definition of “pleb” and I gave it to you.

      Basically, it is the 75-80% lower earning population which are sneered at by the establishment.

      The police are part of the establishment. The Tory minister Andrew Mitchell finds even them to be “plebs”, so what do you think the likes of him think about the rest of us?

    145. Rock says:


      “I’m guessing, but when Tories (& LibDems) are so unpopular, the 55% must contain a lot of people who didn’t understand they were ‘voting Tory on 18th Sept’.”

      If after 3 years of passionate campaigning, 25% still didn’t understand what they were voting about, they must be really thick.

      “rarely or never online, typically older than average.”

      The 70% elderly who voted No are British nationalists very proud of the British Empire.

      They don’t care if they themselves or the younger generations can be better off independent.

      Rule Britannia is what matters most to them most.

    146. Rock says:


      “I agree with what you have to say Rock especially in relation to the vast majority (74%) of rUK individuals who have relocated to Scotland voting NO for an independent Scotland (at least 375,000 people based on 2011 statistics …. extremely outdated in light of recent migration reports).”


      “I’d rather forget about the English settlers in Scotland. Majority of them will never be won over. Never.”

      As I said, the vast majority of the English living here form part of two No voting sections of society – the middle classes and the elderly.

      It is a sensitive issue and most posters here would want to be “politically correct” about what they say.

      My view is that very little if any resources should be spent on trying to convince the middle classes and the elderly (whether Scottish or English).

      Those out of them who voted Yes don’t need any convincing.

      “I reckon that the poorest in Scottish society have in the main already voted YES.”

      No, it is the Labour loyalists within this group that voted No but otherwise are decent folks and should be our prime target.

    147. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Rock ( 7.21 & 7.31) –

      Thanks for answering my questions. I may not think much of your answers, but, fair play, you responded. 🙂

      As for your question about what Andrew Mitchell thinks of ‘the rest of us’, I haven’t the faintest idea. If Mitchell looks upon the police as ‘plebs’, and the police regard the rest of us as ‘plebs’, then there’s no telling where it all ends.

    148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      My Dad had a favourite saying when talking to me – “grasshopper mind”.


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