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Wings Over Scotland

Quoted for partial truth

Posted on February 23, 2014 by

A Radio 4 “Point Of View” programme by the writer and philosopher Roger Scruton on Friday evening attracted quite a lot of social-media ire from nationalists. We can only assume they were so angered by a few crass factual errors (“The Scottish economy is subsidised by the English”) and Dr Scruton’s rather patrician manner that they didn’t bother to listen all the way to the end.

“Suppose then we English were finally allowed a say in the matter, which way would I vote? I have no doubt about it. I would vote for English independence, as a step towards strengthening the friendship between our countries.

It was thanks to independence that the Americans were able at last to confess to their attachment to the old country, and to come to our aid in two world wars. Independence is what real friendship requires. And the same is true for those, like the Scots and the English, who live side by side.”

We can’t say we find anything there to disagree with. After some of the cross-border ugliness and bad feeling that’s been whipped up by the actions of Unionists lately, the only outcome of the referendum that will allow the people of Scotland and England to regard each other with dignity and mutual respect in the future is a Yes vote. Crawling pathetically back to London with our tail between our legs won’t do it.

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    95 to “Quoted for partial truth”

    1. gordoz says:

      Ive never had a problem with an honest English outlook, it’s the Brits and their ‘proudscot puppies’ I can’t stick !

    2. alexicon says:

      I’m tired of the times I have heard some English person saying they want Independence.
      To date not one of them have done anything about it.

    3. Macart says:

      Its what we all want out of life.

      Independence, choice, mutual respect, whether on an individual basis or national.

      Seems like a no brainer to me.

    4. Susan S says:

      Come to our aid? Hardly. Woodrow grudgingly sent a few battalions that took part in a couple of battles (although there was a fine squadron of US fighter pilots fighting for us) – and the main aspect of Roosevelt’s election win was down to his promise that he would not enter the ‘European’ war. Oh, he helped us in other ways, but I doubt they’d have actually ‘come to our aid’ until we’d been invaded, if it wasn’t for Pearl Harbour.
      Nothing to do with independence and more to do with savings one’s own backside in my opinion.

    5. Lanarkist says:

      I found his statement regarding independence for England, if they should ever accomplish the situation where this might be offered, interesting.

      He would vote yes to that scenario, shoe on other foot, what.

      Same article published on BBC without comments allowed. He was one of the guests on QT. Last Thursday.

      Came across as a landed gentry type with opinions to match.

      Edwardian upbringing no doubt.

    6. I too listened to the very end. I was not surprised by his favouring independence for England. Most of his talk was a rather sad but predictable anti Scottish rant. His analogy with America is also a tad odd. There was me thinking that Pearl Harbour was what brought the Americans into WW2. If they had wanted to show real friendship and attachment to the old country, why did they wait three years before entering WW1? Scruton may be a tip top philosopher, but he seems to be a pretty poor historian.

    7. Neil McAdam says:

      Well I must admit I’m on the side of taking ire at the first few lines.

      The Scottish people have been on a long and hard journey which has taken them through the growing pains of devolution, and now to a full-blown democratic and bloodless battle for Independence.

      The English have not seen it necessary to embark on a similar journey, largely because their identity has been appropriately served by calling themselves British.

      They cannot now say, “Eh we wan’t a say on some of this Independence malarky!”

      Fine, start your own journey. Don’t jump on the back of ours.

    8. Onward says:

      I think this is a good campaigning angle.

      Independence for an improved Britain, with respect and friendship among equals.

      Most Scots would be far more comfortable about a part-British identity, if it wasn’t associated with London political rule.

    9. Andy-B says:

      I tend to agree, that independence will make for a better more equal relationship with the rUK, indeed, its only Westminster that I find, is at the heart of the problem, not the people of the rUK.


      Here’s a Scottish polling trend I’d like to see swing to the SNP, before September 18th.

    10. west_lothian_questioner says:

      Anything less than YES is worse than useless.

      “Independence is what real friendship requires…” You just HAVE to like it!

    11. Lanarkist says:

      Sorry comments are now allowed on this thread on BBC but comments closed on article concerning Cabinet visit to Aberdeen and the oil industry.

    12. Charles P. Kearney says:

      Och! I get so tired of these Folks. Had a look at his CV, soon as I read he’d written a book called ‘The Meaning of Conservatism!’ ennui enveloped me, another spoiled, Public Schoolboy, telling me how to think about and understand ‘The Master Race!’

      As Brecht has the Hitler-Ui character say in ‘The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui,’Beware you People, the Bitch that bore Him is in Heat again!’

      We must be Rid of these Nutters, just Vote Yes!

    13. Alba4Eva says:

      Rev Stu… honestly, I don’t know why you even posted this. I seriously pet-hate alledged ‘Academics’ trying to make sence out of chaos. He basically tried to combine Russian politics with American politics and mix it all up with random conclusions on issues such as democracy, freedom of speech etc. I also got that he is a Tory.

      Basically, he waffled on for 4 parts and came to no conclusion. Obviously, that was always going to be the case because he was trying to blanket cover every single aspect of human nature in a 40 minute speech… not possible! Why you even bothered with this is beyond me?

    14. Seasick Dave says:

      Aw naw, now its our mountains!

      In March’s issue of Cyclist magazine, the editor, Pete Muir (London based Scot) makes this impassioned plea:

      “Which is why, in this year of the Scottish Independence Referendum, I urge our Scottish readers to vote No.

      Cyclist’s UK rides features would be just that bit less rugged and dramatic without the roads of Scotland in them.

      So please, Scotland, don’t leave”.

    15. Alba4Eva says:

      …OK, I probably used the wrong link… ie. The first one on Stu’s article. Everyone, go listen to this overdone Academic. Honestly, its like the moment you realise a drunken conversation is exactly just that!

    16. Jim T says:

      O/T there’s a thread on Twitter started by @MorayMP at 5:48pm that has a couple of spreadsheets (helpfully supplied by a @flashgrim) that seem to show a budget deficit for Scotland of around £71Bn since 1990. Based on oil revenues.

      I’m certain they’re skewed figures and there must be items missing, but I don’t know enough about the subject to wade in and challenge. Any help would, I assume, be appreciated.

    17. benarmine says:

      The neither like or respect us now and a No will only make that worse. Only one way to go to a better future for this island.

    18. benarmine says:

      They, doh.

    19. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Crawling pathetically back to London with our tail between our legs won’t do it.

      That’ll be what Mr Naughtie and the other parachutists will be doing after September 18th …

    20. SquareHaggis says:

      It was’nt the piece itself I objected to (having listened to at the time) though there are some inaccuracies I disagreed with, it’s more the fact it came right on the back of the Tosvig slag-fest – to put an upper class sounding Englishman asking “would england be better off without scotland?” may well have gotten myine and many others’ ire up.

    21. frankieboy says:

      The English already have independence. They do whatever they like for their own betterment. I’d say that was pretty much independent.

    22. scaredy cat. says:

      Reload page

    23. twenty14 says:

      O/T – David Cameron and the Westminister elite will visit Aberdeen tomorrow, side topics will be Scotland’s ability to Control our own Oil industry , or as an unnamed Government official put it in simpler terms ( to allow us to be able to grasp the reality ) if we won the Euro millions we would be incapable of knowing how to spend it.

      The unnamed Government official stated that the main aim of the visit would be to discuss the return of the orange up button on Winging over the Scottish land site – only as part of the union would you be able to fully interact in a democratic society – ” make no mistake, if the People of Scotland vote Yes the orange up button will be excluded from this site from now and forever more.”

      A spokesman for the YES campaign stated that the orange up button is no more owned by the union or Scotland, Alex Salmond stressed that once again the No campaign is nothing but bullying and bluster and the orange up button will be shortly back in its position to provide the people of Scotland the ability to rapidly get from the bottom back to their rightful position at the top – 🙂

    24. JGedd says:

      Roger Scruton was Thatcher’s favourite philosopher and was very much favoured by the Eastern European neo-liberals during the fall of communism in Europe. In the former Czechoslovakia at the time of the Velvet Revolution, he was seen as something of a guru who persuaded them that Capitalism was synonymous with freedom. Very much a right wing thinker.

    25. Andy-B says:

      Here’s another country, that wants to dump the Union Jack flag, its seems its lost its popularity.

    26. Bruce Wallace says:

      I read something last year that America where planning to invade and colonise Britain before the outbreak of WW1, sorry for no link, I will search after my dinner

    27. AvidViewer says:

      Thanks for picking up on this broadcast, Reverend.

      Scruton’s opinion piece contained several errors- the Scottish economy is subsidised by England; Scots have two votes, the English only one; Scottish voters decide UK General Elections are just the ones I jotted down whilst doing other things. His politics are to the right of mine. His somewhat patrician persona is at odds with current “Call me Tony” image management.

      But look beyond the messenger to the message. His conclusion is surely correct. Independence is what real friendship requires.

      Incidentally, Scruton is no toff. His dad was a teacher, he’s a grammar school boy, and his longest (21 years) academic post was at Birkbeck, the University of London evening school.

    28. Clootie says:

      I’m with frankieboy. The English have independence,most consider the u.k. to be greater England.

      All roads lead to Rome (London)

    29. Flower of Scotland says:

      The English I know don’t want Independence from Scotland , they want it from LONDON and the South !

    30. Alex Grant says:

      If you want o hear some quality balanced debate about Scottish independence from England try this.Aaronovitch eat your heart out! If only the BBC could do its job properly!

    31. heedtracker says:

      At what point will they bottle it and “give” Scotland devo max, like what their Emperial ancestors did the USA? Ha!

    32. Gill says:

      Same point more briefly and positively put in today’s Herald.

    33. Marcia says:

      Jim T 7.06

      Everything you need to know about the economic arguments can be found here;

    34. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T – Apologies.

      Disqus Comment Forum (as used by the Herald and many other media outlets) has altered the way its comment voting works. Whilst you can still vote particular comments down the down total for the comment is no longer displayed.

      Before this change you would often see anti-independence votes strongly down-voted (you have to be logged in to down-vote any comment). So, whilst these anti-independence votes may still be getting strongly down-voted, it is now not possible to see the down-vote figure. This, of course, works the opposite way with pro-indy comments being down-voted but in my experience the pro-indy comments were much less voted down than the anti-indy comments.

      We can now only see the up-votes for any comments and whilst the pro-indy comment up-votes are often far ahead of the anti-indy comment votes, it still does not give a true reflection of the ‘feeling’ of the comments. Often you would see, for example, an anti-indy comment with an up-vote of say 10 and a down-vote of say 35 resulting in a comment score of -25. Now it looks like it has a score of +10 which just isn’t true.

      This change in Disqus voting has, at a stroke, brought up the anti-independence comment count (which was always far behind pro-indy commenst), giving a completely false impression of how the comment is actually regarded by the readership. This change by Disqus clearly benefits the anti-independence comments more than the pro-indy comments.

      It should be mentioned also that up-votes can be given without having to login to the Herald site (and many others). This situation is, of course, replicated across all media sites that use Disqus comments Forum.

      Why would Disqus make such a change? Who authorised it? Has Disqus been ‘leaned on’? Anyone have any more info on this?

    35. Southerner says:

      Your choice of yes or no will correctly decide Scotland’s governance, however, is it not the constant anti-English aggression as demonstrated every day by anti-English commentary (such as on WOS ) and not Unionist propaganda as suggested that is gradually hardening England’s attitude.

      I had never before heard any English, Welsh or NI patriotic fervour or aggression against the Scots when living in England, however I have seen first hand anti-English aggression a number of times when visiting Scotland.

      The article is right that In England normally mild people are increasingly expressing some anti-Scottish sentiment but is it not directly a result of what they are seeing and hearing from the Scots themselves?

      Scotland is currently a part of Westminster and to call Scotland, as I have read on WOS, a colony is bizarre, Scotland majority votes Labour in general elections and Westminster was dominated by Scots Labour for 13 years under Blair, Brown etc. How is this a solely English fault? Add in RBS, with Fred Goodwin’s reckless destruction of the banking sector and it seems incongruous to blame the English for all the ills we are all suffering.

      Today, the Lib Dems, with strong Scottish representation are partly in the Westminster driving seat. What percentage of Scots vote for either the Conservatives or the Lib Dems? Is it over 50% potentially?

      It seems to of been forgotten on this website that James 1st was a Scottish king c1600 for 30 years before he was declared King of England. The Stuarts were the monarchy that reigned and apart from the UK wide revolution led by Cromwell, ruled for over a hundred years, and if I am not mistaken Queen Anne, a member of the Scottish monarchy was Queen when the Scottish Parliament voted for the Union.

      Go for Independence as is your right, merge into Europe as you please, but please don’t build up any more unbridled hatred for the English people to much in the process.

    36. Andy-B says:

      Norwegian trade surplus in January reaches record level of 48.8 billion. This is what you can achieve if you have control of your own economy like Norway.

    37. BuckieBraes says:

      Very good!

      The thing is, the ‘down’ button’s there, but it doesn’t work. I therefore don’t see the point of it – a bit like Alistair Carmichael.

      And comments are appearing then disappearing like snaw aff a dyke. Spock, analysis please.

    38. TJenny says:

      twenty14 – and the orange down button will no longer be present only to tease us, but be activated once again. 🙂

    39. Andy-B says:

      If we hadn’t been cheated out of our independence in 1979, we too could have, reached these dizzy heights of national security.

    40. Craig M says:

      Independence for England should be encouraged. English identity has been deliberately supressed by successive Westminster Governments as it suits vested interests. When you see patronising statements and misinformation quoted as fact coming from English people regarding Scotland, the referendum, etc, it is a symptom of a greater malady. The English have been lied to for decades as well. Independence for Scotland will provide the leverage to inject some common sense into the English view of themselves and will provide a catalyst for change. If English voices are advocating English Independence, then good for them.

    41. Schiehallion! Schiehallion! says:

      Say what you like about Roger Scruton, he’s bound to have broad shoulders . Apparently Scots tend to slide down the oil wells. You need a posh boy for the continuity of flow and to supervise clearing away the wasted locals. A libertarian philosopher explains all that sort of stuff twice before breakfast… Or is it that he has two breakfasts and then explains it. To maintain his shoulder size. I hope the cabinet has plenty rowies for their meeting tomorrow. A lot of shoulders.

    42. Andy-B says:

      Here in an older post from Denmark’s only English language paper, they realise that Scotland is looking towards them to base an economic model on their Danish one.

    43. Croompenstein says:

      @Southerner – can you please provide links or evidence of anti English commentary such as on WOS because I have never seen it

    44. Vincent McDee says:

      I’ve always been of the opinión that, left to our own devices, the English and the Scots would find a suitable arrangement for a very good neighbourly relationship.

      It’s the British Establishment the one causing mischieff both sides of the border, basically by using their mighty hold on the media to proyect screens of their versión of “how things stand”.

      We have been very lucky the actual push for Independence, due to the “it’s alright” SG management of those things (allowed), is taking place in the 21th Century, with the internet letting the Common People to have a peek beyond those proyected screens and find out they think us fools.

      The Web has transformed the old grapevine, to become real time. No need for conflicting rumours any longer, every thing you ever wanted to know but were affraid/didn’t know were/whom to ask, is now at our collective fingertips.

      There’s never been such a chance to debunk propaganda, if we fail now…we’ll ever fail.

      Thank heavens failure is not an option.

    45. twenty14 says:

      @ southerner – Very pleased you joined the debate.

      As a Scotsman living in Scotland I don’t think I’ve ever heard of any anti- English abuse or hatred . Yes the occasional humour when it comes to sporting occasions but on the whole there is a ” couldn’t care less attitude ”

      We are currently, in discussion, on about the biggest pro- Independence site in Great Britain and I ask you to search through all the topics ( which there are too numerous to know where to begin ) and pick out any anti- English hatred or abuse.

      You seem to totally miss the point that the whole ” debate ” is absolutely nothing to do with you ( our English neighbours )but the people that run our Country and yours.

      The bigger picture is that a massive majority are not happy with the people that run our Country, but we, in Scotland, have the power to change it forever.

      For un- bridled hatred please look at the people from whom you get your information and then explain why you feel as you do – you will not find it on this site

    46. Vincent McDee says:


      There is an implicit answer to your question in your own comment.

      British and English are not synonymous, the second are just people, the first a caste.

      And a very arrogant one.

    47. Erchie says:

      I don’t know about WW1, but before WW2, the Yanks wargamed and planned war against several other nations.

      Case Red was for the UK, Case Crimson was Canada

    48. handclapping says:

      I regularly read and post on here and am an Englishman living in Scotland who will be voting Yes. Not through any anti-Englishness, I don’t hate myself, but because Westminster is totally out of touch with what happens in Scotland.

      Mrs Thatcher introduced the poll tax up here a year before it was imposed on the rUK because she was totally out of touch with Scotland and the voices of the Scottish MPs were too few and too feeble. Nothing has changed since then in the relationship of Scotland and Westminster and that is 30 years or more. Enough, we want a government responsive to what we want for ourselves and our future not what some twit 300 miles away can force on us.

      Its not the English, or the Welsh, or those in Northern Ireland, It is Westminster. Even the English have problems with Westminster. Why should Welsh and Scots and NI MPs be voting on the English NHS or English schools? Why, because Westminster set up a crazy system. If you want it changed, then you have to change Westminster, the Scots and Welsh and NIers don’t have enough votes to do it for you.

    49. Indy_Scot says:

      Andy-B, don’t you mean Devolution in 1979.

    50. cynicalHighlander says:


      What can one say other than manufactured Daily Hail nonsense and does you no favours unless you can provide any links to back you up. There are idiots on both sides of the border and a high percentage of them inhabit the green benches in Westminster.

    51. gordoz says:

      @Southerner ? Daily Mail / Independent reader ?

      Take it you led a sheltered life then – no anti Scots feeling in England ? Really ? Are you sure ?

      Er the BBC for starters, followed by the media.
      Big fan of Kelvin McKenzie, Ray winston ?

    52. crisiscult says:


      I don’t want to challenge you on whether you’ve read anti English comments here or elsewhere, or people referring to Scotland as a colony. I’ve seen comments on newspapers, BBC stories, etc, that just demonstrate why the internet is a bit like a school playground at times (lots of insults getting traded back and forward). However, if you’ve spent a bit of time here and read the stories and comments, I think you, like me, will notice that a lot of independence supporters are motivated by anger at the direction the UK has been going in for a long time, making UK the second most unequal country in Europe as far as I recall. I’m not sure it really matters to me where the MPs come from or who votes for the parties; I genuinely believe that this constitutional change will at best reverse the trend I referred to, and at worst slow it down dramatically.

    53. twenty14 says:

      @ southerner – please don’t take any offence on any replies to your post anymore than I do on any posts in the Guardian

    54. Bill McLean says:

      southerner- I wouldn’t normally comment on anything like you have submitted. The assumption that many English people, like you, have is that you are lily-white. Let me assure you that this not the case.

      I grew up with English people in colonies like Malta, Ceylon, Hong Kong and Singapore and then lived in England for most of my adult life. I was beaten up age 14 by two English boys for simply being a Scot. Throughout my life afterwards abroad and in England I have been subjected to racism, both casual and intended. It bothers me not but your “normally mild people” is as untrue as it is phoney.

      You clearly know nothing of England’s history up to now. These are the mild people who stab people on football terraces, castrate prisoners of war, massacre entire villages – I could go on indefinitely. Of course you don’t want to know any of this as it deflates your own opinion of yourself and your country folk.

      I know many decent straightforward English people including my own wife and her family but your talk of “unbridled hatred” of the English is nonsense – I suspect you know it but in your need to be superior it is a ready weapon. Ask the Rev to reprint the 48 pages of tweets about Andy Murray (and sickeningly his mother) that you “mild” people sent.

      If you don’t like a bit of truth please don’t come back – try reading comments about Scots in your press and web sites – absolutely disgraceful as proved by a paper presented to the House of Commons by Dr Mark Shephard regarding on- line vitriol – the worse by far was from those supporting the Union!If I seem angry I am – never in my life have I made difference between people on race, colour or religion but I’ve just about had enough of the lies and distortions coming at us because we have the temerity to peacefully pursue the dream of governing ourselves. All your historical comment is of no relevance to the future of Scotland or the rUK!

    55. Richard Bruce says:

      While I agree with the ire this man’s arrogant tone inspires on the wings commentators. I disagree with the sentiment about the USA declaring war on axis powers. As in coming to the aid of good old Britain.

      Is that not the same sentiment we shout about when we here the unionists tell us we can’t do this and that?

      There was a lot of political hostility in the USA to joining a war in Europe. I think FDR did what he could to help, (lend/lease and the famous “gift horse” ships). Not being an expert other than what I have read and been told by my family who fought through both world wars. I probably should leave the actual facts to better read people than me.

      I just feel we should not react in the same way that we accuse our opponents of doing. We are better than that surely. After all was it not good old ‘blighty’ that left Czechoslovakia to it’s fate in the late 1930’s.

      Sorry I need a drink!

    56. TJenny says:

      twenty14 – I agree with everything in your riposte to southerner and I agree that he must be getting his anti-English nonsense from other sites and definitely not WoS. Surely he can separate the disgust we have for Westminster rule and it’s politicos which does not translate into ‘unbridled hatred for the English people.’

      Also he asks whether the Tories and Lib Dems potentially got 50% of the Scottish vote in 2010 GE. Is that true? Does anyone on here have those figs? Seems very high to me.

      And if he really wants to see ‘unbridled hatred’ I suggest he has a look at the Indyref twitter feed, where it’s constant, vile and definitely unbridled hatred against indy minded Scots and almost always from unionists/BT.

    57. Paula Rose says:

      I thought we were just going to get on with being a modern european democracy – pity the rUK wants to return to the dark ages.

    58. Croompenstein says:

      @southerner you clickbaiter – still waiting on those links!

    59. scottish_skier says:

      Scotland is currently a part of Westminster and to call Scotland, as I have read on WOS, a colony is bizarre

      Of course. Colonies had no representation in Parliament. Scotland has 9%, or 4% under the FPTP system.

      I quote you what seems an innocent line, yet says it all so succinctly.

      The full UK cabinet will meet in Aberdeen – only the second time in more than 90 years it will have met in Scotland.

      How can a country be properly governed by a government that visits twice in 90 years only?

      It is only British nationalists (unionists) who have issues with ‘foreigners’ in the main.

      Hating people requires considerable time and effort. Your average Scot of course has better things to do, just as your average Englishman does.

    60. scottish_skier says:

      Also he asks whether the Tories and Lib Dems potentially got 50% of the Scottish vote in 2010 GE.

      35.6% combined.

      But then you are only as good as your last general election result and that was 19.7% Tory+Lib combined on average in 2011.

    61. twenty14 says:

      To simplify a quote from a great great man – liking another man comes naturally – hating has to be taught

    62. TJenny says:

      SS – thanks. I thought 50% seemed far too high, but then I think he’s just a troll that’s wandered onto the wrong site (for him). 🙂

    63. twenty14 says:

      @Tjenny – as the whole debate opens up and Wings draws more and more people we should expect and welcome more like minded, but I’m also sure we should expect more
      ” employed ” people to join the debate – fortunately they usually leave a trail which can be picked up after a time.

      Quite sure the Rev has a handle on this

    64. Papadox says:

      We were lied to over the extent of the oil in the 70s.

      All political parties (and governments) deceived us regarding the mcCrone report.

      We have been told for a very long time that England subsidises us.

      Labour and Tory’s have colluded in the deceit and lies to the Scottish people.

      We were swindled out of the 1979 referendum by a labour politician.

      If getting used and abused by England is the justification of better together then count me out.

      They still spread their lies about subsidising Scotland. Doesn’t sound to much like a mistake to me sounds more like attempted fraud on a massive scale. With malice.

      If we are stupid enough to vote no they will make sure there are no more chances for the daft Scots to get justice, they will finish us off and no mistake. There will be no second chances, we might be stupid but they certainly ar’nt they are ruthless and vicious. We will be stood upon.

    65. TJenny says:

      twenty14 – I’m quite sure our Stu has indeed got a handle on this, but it irked me to be hit with such dis/misinformation esp denigrating this site and commentors.

    66. twenty14 says:

      @ TJenny – as you said ” troll ” and I said ” employed “

    67. cynicalHighlander says:


      Now what do we have here?

      Now lets have a look at that first paragraph shall we.

      We want to live in an inclusive England, which can look to the future rather than cling with nostalgia to our past empire; which is comfortable with our neighbours, whether to the north, the west, or in Europe. The idea that our friends in Scotland might carve a space for themselves on our shared island but beyond the oppressive and depressing Westminster political consensus is thrilling.

      No doubt Southerner will deny or confirm!

    68. Bruce Wallace says:

      @cynicalHighlander, @Erchie.

      Thanks, I knew it was before a WW, I was shown it last year by an elderly gent who was going on about how he thought the two of the events were linked (Americas plans & WW2).
      At the time I thought he was losing his marbles, now I don’t diss anything outright, Dark Forces and all that

    69. TJenny says:

      twenty14 – Aah! Got you now, employed to troll, are these vacancies advertised at the JCs? 🙂

    70. HandandShrimp says:


      Is there much anti-English sentiment here on Wings? I am not aware of there being such. We do put the boot of an occasion but it tends to be Johann Lamont, Ian Davidson and the like on the receiving end. In this respect it is no different from the knock about that occurs on English sites and newspapers regarding Milliband vs Cameron. The words are harsh but politics often is rather visceral.

      Obviously there is ire at Westminster especially in relation to the co-ordinated attempts to sow fear and uncertainty about Scottish independence. Again though, this is a political battle rather than one between Scotland and England. We have political friends in England as well as foes. We have political friends who are English who live in Scotland.

      This is about forging Scotland’s political identity going forward into the future. Something that is more in tune with how people who live here view the world.

    71. Proud Cybernat says:


      When I tried to reload the page using ‘page refresh’ I received a message telling me I had already made that post i.e. a duplicate post. I then wrote page refresh under the first line (see my post above) and it refreshed the page. Are we looking at another ‘mutation’ of the DDOS attack?

    72. The Rough Bounds says:


      I think you are mistaken. There are quite a few English people living round this part of Perthshire and I never hear any bad mouthing of them among my fellow Scots.

      I suspect that you are a bit like the man with the big nose; you think everybody is talking about it…and they aren’t.

    73. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Bruce Wallace

      There were youtube links highlighted by Moridura in the past which alerted me to the affair. Greedy men in the financial industry desperate to increase their individual wealth through complicit governments.

    74. Alba4Eva says:

      Alex Grant… thanks mucho for that link. 🙂

    75. Papadox says:

      @Southerner says:

      The SE England, London, Westminster, Establishment, BBC & MSM.

      They are your guilty persons! I have never had any feelings either way regarding England but I must confess thanks to the ” BBC striving to be impartial and fair” I certainly am beginning to feel a little uncomfortable and only wanted in GB (as a second class serf). There is NO going back, whatever the result, we are not getting back in the cage.

    76. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “When I tried to reload the page using ‘page refresh’ I received a message telling me I had already made that post i.e. a duplicate post. I then wrote page refresh under the first line (see my post above) and it refreshed the page. Are we looking at another ‘mutation’ of the DDOS attack?”

      As noted previously – if you type it twice in the same thread, it’ll be counted as a duplicate. Just type anything else along with it – as long as “page refresh” or “refresh page” are in there SOMEWHERE, the filter will catch it.

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      As if on cue Bob Mortimer provides a tweet. A political friend. 🙂

      (I have an absurdist taste in comedy and I liked House of Fools.)

    78. Southerner says:

      My comments were not in any sense meant to be negative to or detract from the yes for independence cause, I was making the point that the English people can often appear to be the target and it is this tone that is changing attitudes and not any press campaigns, Scottish people are to generous of spirit for me to suggest this is widespread.

      Ref links, I do not have access to my computer currently but will look tomorrow to revisit some of the previous comments that I have read, as a supporter of English and Scottish self determination I feel the yes campaign would gain from not playing the antii-English card to hard as it will detract from the cause.

      Saying reading the mail, guardian etc is relevant is not correct as I have spent many hours researching the claims and comments from this site and others, my family originate from throughout the UK and making sense of the debate requires digging into detail and not reading the comics that are published.

      The tolerant response to my post is appreciated.

    79. Southerner says:

      P.s.. The comment that there is no going back surely hits the point exactly, Scotland is clearly on the path to independence even in the event there is a slender no vote win. The English self determination debate will move forward strongly on the back of the Scottish referendum, however any debate will clearly centre more on independence from Brussels than Wales or NI.

    80. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “is it not the constant anti-English aggression as demonstrated every day by anti-English commentary (such as on WOS)”

      I’d love you to quote me some. It’ll come as quite the surprise to me, as a long-term resident of England.

      “Would globally any Scots born or 1st generation born Scot be given a Scottish passport?”

      That question is very explicitly answered in the White Paper. The answer is yes.

    81. Ken MacColl says:

      If the Prime Minister can spare a few minutes on his flying visit to Aberdeen tomorrow perhaps he can explain to our Norwegian neighbours, and to us as well, how they could have improved the benefits they presently derive from their North Sea oil industry if only they had been able to call upon the political clout, fiscal policies and business acumen of a larger imperial government to take the important decisions for them.

      It seems that the Norwegian Oil Fund has just reached a new high. How misguided they are!

    82. HandandShrimp says:


      The PMs comments about the oil are patently silly. The oil companies invested the money and took the risks. Westminster’s broad shoulders simply sloped and let them.

    83. Taranaich says:

      @Southerner: I had never before heard any English, Welsh or NI patriotic fervour or aggression against the Scots when living in England, however I have seen first hand anti-English aggression a number of times when visiting Scotland.

      And I can point to anecdotal evidence from every single one of my family members who live or have visited England who *have* personally experienced or witnessed anti-Scottish aggression.

      I don’t doubt your veracity when you say that you’ve experienced anti-English aggression, and for that I can only apologise, but to say that there is no anti-Scottish bias in England is to ignore reality. This is NOT a fault of the English people as a whole, it is an insidious and persistent phenomenon cultivated over centuries as yet another form of divide-and-conquer over the disparate nations of the British Isles.

      This seems to be the basis of your misunderstanding: when WoS and others talk about Scotland being treated as a colony (Not actually being on), or about London-centric media and legislation, we’re NOT talking about the people of England. You bring up Blair, Brown etc and ask how it’s a “solely English fault”: of course it isn’t, it’s a WESTMINSTER fault. And you might’ve noticed that a significant number of Scots favour Westminster rule – most of whom are the frequent targets of WoS.

      This isn’t about Scots vs English, Scotland vs England, or even Conservatives vs Labour. It’s about whether Scotland should be a nation that holds itself to account, or a region which allows itself to be subsumed into a larger entity with different politics and interests. But just as the government seeks to pit middle class vs working class, employed vs unemployed, born citizens vs immigrants, and abled vs disabled, so it serves their purposes to falsely portray the referendum as a Scots vs English issue.

    84. TJenny says:

      Have the Westminster Cabinet, minus Georgey boy, announced where they will be holding their sermon to the oil industry et al, or do we all surmise it’ll be in Bob Dudley’s boardroom?

    85. Alexandra-M- says:

      There is, unfortunately, anti-English AND anti-Scottish sentiment on both sides of the debate Southerner. However, it’s mostly to be found on the comment sections of newspapers such as The Daily Mail, and social networking sites. I have been reading WOS for a while now, although only started to join in with my two pence worth with the other day, and I am genuinely struggling to think of a single comment I would call anti-English. Anti-Westminster comments, yes by the barrel load – but anti-English and anti-Westminster aren’t the same thing (a concept which is blurry to some, sadly).

    86. geeo says:

      Like everyone else I refute any claims of anti-English vitriol.

      I spent a good while reading this site before posting,it is clearly a site which is honourable and fair to all posters,and the lack of abuse to that post by southerner
      could be viewed as endorsement of that view.

      I for one,and I am sure plenty others would agree,would welcome more views from people from the rest of the current union.

      All I would ask would be for everyone to show the same respect which they themselves would expect,no matter their viewpoint.

    87. Morag says:

      I’ve seen the odd hot-headed comment on Wings that I wished hadn’t been posted, but when you look at the size and popularity of the site that’s inevitable.

      When you look at what’s coming from south of the border, well that’s something else. And I lived in the SE of England for 25 years and while most people were perfectly nice there was an unpleasant minority who would go off on one at the slightest provocation.

    88. geeo says:

      The sad thing about media/politically driven derision of Scotland being subsidy junkies etc,is that the reality is lost on those being lied to.

      English people in particular are going to realise that in the event of a YES vote,they have been aiming their disdain in the wrong direction.This could bring serious political repercussions down south and provide an opportunity for the rise of the likes of UKIP in 2015.

      Yes is a must.

    89. Jim T says:

      @Marcia 7:58

      good morning. Just catching up.

      I’m aware of, and make frequent visits to, Business for Scotland – great resource.

      The problem I had was that the table the guy had provided seems fairly straight forward and, when I accessed the raw data on the Scottish gov website, it tied in just a wee bit too tidily. I’ve since asked BfS (I’m a member) to look at it and explain what, if anything, is missing.

      It concerns me that if I can’t see the twist (and I consider myself to be reasonably numerate) that the same presentation of data will be trotted out to convince the less well informed.

      I’m probably just having one of those senior moments and can’t see the wood for the trees, but I like clarity and this was a prime patch of fog IMHO.

    90. tom says:

      I was indignant. Not at the conclusion which was all very well, but by the fact that he had a full 10 minutes to expound in a calm, unhurried manner, an opinion on Scottish independence. Compare this to the treatment the BBC metes out to people from the Yes campaign who are hounded and contradicted at every turn.

    91. Jim T says:

      Rev, any reason why my reply to Marcia, earlier this morning, has been removed?

    92. Jim T says:

      Rev, strike that – just refreshed the page with that last query and the reply is there. Damn the cache problem!

    93. Southener says:

      “The idea that our friends in Scotland might carve a space for themselves on our shared island but beyond the oppressive and depressing Westminster political consensus is thrilling.
      No doubt Southerner will deny or confirm!”

      @cynicalHighlander. This would be the best possible outcome in my humble opinion, so, yes a strong confirmation from me.

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