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Wings Over Scotland

Quoted for interest

Posted on November 21, 2013 by

Here’s the Labour First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, one year ago:

“Asked if he could see Barnett reformed without touching the current generous allocation of funds to Scotland, Mr Jones said:

‘It would be difficult to envisage a situation where there would be widespread Barnett reform with an independence referendum pending in Scotland, and with a Scottish Chief Secretary to the Treasury I think that’s unlikely. The problem has been in years gone by that you can’t address the Barnett Formula unless you address the whole of it.’

The First Minister said it was difficult to predict a timescale because there was no timetable for the first step – Barnett reform. Asked whether he got a sense from Danny Alexander that he had an appetite for reform, Mr Jones said:

‘No, I don’t – and I can understand why. He’s a Scottish Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Reforming a system that wouldn’t help Scotland is not something that would be high on his agenda. I certainly can’t see it happening before 2014 and the Scottish referendum.‘”

Jones is all over the papers today with his bizarre delusions-of-influence assertion that he would have some sort of veto over a Sterling currency union between the rUK and an independent Scotland (“Wales could block efforts by an independent Scotland to join a pound-sharing pact”, reports the Scotsman).

For perspective, imagine Alex Salmond being given a veto over the result of a UK referendum to leave the EU. Stop laughing, the article’s not finished yet.

But when it comes to killing the Barnett Formula, thereby slashing billions of pounds off Scotland’s budget, Carwyn Jones is in lockstep with senior Scottish politicians of all three Westminster parties, let alone the English ones who constantly demand its abolition (including Lord Barnett himself).

Alert readers may have noticed in the Scotsman piece linked from that last sentence the absence of any denial from the UK government spokesman to the suggestion that Barnett would end after a No vote, for the very good reason that just about every political commentator in the country now agrees it would happen.

Here’s Iain Macwhirter in today’s Herald, for example:

“[Jones’s position] is confirmation, if still needed, that Scotland is likely to lose the Barnett Formula whatever the result of our 2014 referendum. 

The days when the men in Whitehall genuinely cared about what happened in the “regions” are long gone. In its place is emerging a kind of constitutional free market in which countries like Scotland and Wales have to fight their corner or risk going out of business, like the nationalised industries of old.

A UK government may conclude that there is no longer any need to placate the Scots or the Welsh once nationalism has been put back in its box.

A No vote will be interpreted as a reassertion of sovereignty by Westminster. And after the “bayoneting of the wounded” there may not be much enthusiasm for handing more powers to Holyrood. Unlike in Wales, Scots will not have had the option of voting for devolution max, so there will be no reason for Westminster to go to the trouble of legislating for it.

The Barnett Formula will be scrapped, certainly.”

We’ve been banging this drum for months now. A No vote is NOT a vote for more devolution, and it’s not even a vote for the status quo. It’s a vote to slash the Scottish budget, to reduce Scottish autonomy, to create “One Nation” – meaning crippling tuition fees, a privatised NHS and countless billions spent on nuclear weapons while the UK’s people freeze and starve in their homes.

You might call that negative campaigning, and perhaps it is. But only in the same way that it’s “negative” to tell someone standing in the middle of a railway track that if they don’t move, they’re going to get killed.

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95 to “Quoted for interest”

  1. JP says:

    No I wont stop laughing.

  2. Juteman says:

    Important article. This needs to be understood by the undecided. There is no status quo.

  3. Horacesaysyes says:

    I do feel that the Yes campaign needs to go more on the offensive about things like this. At the moment, the No side are allowed to get away with painting a Yes vote as being full of change and uncertainty, yet they avoid the fact that a No vote will also bring about change and uncertainty.
    Of course, the big issue, as always, is that the majority of the MSM are unlikely to push them on it.

  4. Greannach says:

    Interesting to see the Welsh First Minister drawn in to this debate, and a very good move on the No side, as it proves it’s not just some English politicians who don’t want the UK to end, but our neighbours in Wales too. Sit up, Scotland, and pay heed! I wonder if the No side will now try to draw in some proud Catalans, Basques or Flemings to point to the catastrophic consequences facing independent countries.

  5. TheGreatBaldo says:

    I’m confused !! 
    Is this the same Carwyn Jones who barely a few weeks ago was complaining about the UK Govt. dragging it’s feet over the transfer of the modest powers which would have brought the Welsh Assembly into line with the Northern Irish and Scottish ones ?
    Surely it can’t be ?????
    Presumably then if he’s going to exercise his ‘veto’ he will have done an analysis that will demonstrate what happens to the Welsh economy when 9.9% of revenues but only 9.3% of costs disappear of UK PLC’s Profit & Loss and £1.5 Trillion walks off the balance sheet over night……  
    I’m sure he has all the facts and figures at his finger tips…..has anyone asked him ?

  6. call me dave says:

    Call Kaye: Welsh being affected by referendum and scrapping the Barnett formula.Most folk are taking the view that it’s the business of the Scottish people. But even more importantly most are well aware of the implications of removing the Barnett formula and that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK. 

    Also the DK’s are listening and will soon realise what’s going on.Quite encouraging and that’s in spite of all the IFS claptrap earlier in the week.But the programmes still got 1hr to go, surely the BBC will get some folk to call in with a case for the Union!

  7. Luigi says:

    So, let me get this right:
    According to the flawed IFS report, if we vote yes, Scotland is 3 billion worse off.
    Today we learn, if we vote no and lose Barnett, Scotland is 4 billion worse off.
    Thanks to Carwyn Jones for clarifying – much appreciated.

  8. MajorBloodnok says:

    Carwyn Jones appears to be a turkey voting for Christmas.  That’s the problem though, pin a red rosette on a turkey (at any time, not just before Christmas) and people will still vote for it.

  9. Training Day says:

    “He’s a Scottish Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Reforming a system that wouldn’t help Scotland is not something that would be high on his agenda.”
    Eh, are you sure about that, Mr Jones?  This is Danny Alexander we’re talking about!

  10. MajorBloodnok says:

    Danny Alexander says “Is it cos I’s Scottish?”

  11. caz-m says:

    @call me dave

    LOL Call Kaye are having a bit of a problem finding support for this nonsense.

    I think they will have to drop a phone line down into the “bunker” so the wee poison dwarf can phone in to back her fellow Welsh Labour unionist plant.

  12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Today we learn, if we vote no and lose Barnett, Scotland is 4 billion worse off.”

    I’d be surprised if it was that little. “Better Together” loves to tell us that we get £1200 more per head than the UK. On their figures that’s something like 14%.

    14% of the total Scottish budget would be more like £9bn.

  13. Big Red Machine says:

    Horacesaysyes says:

    I do feel that the Yes campaign needs to go more on the offensive about things like this.

    I have been saying this for months. I could not agree more, there has to be some visible bite back from the Yes Campaign otherwise they’re going to end up looking like the passive classroom swot who is habitually bullied. The Yes Campaign is far too quiet for my liking, the message has to be presented in a simple, easily digestible form for the X Factor loving public to comprehend and it has to be loud, confident and passionate. Three qualities which, I’m afraid, are currently severely lacking in the Yes camp.

  14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Yes Campaign is far too quiet for my liking”

    As I keep saying: don’t expect the general public to be paying close attention to the referendum until next spring. There’s no point in firing off all your guns now. Look what good it’s doing the No camp – they’re reduced to repeating the same old scares everyone’s already sick of hearing, and their vote is crumbling away to Don’t Knows. It’s a classic rope-a-dope.

  15. Doug Daniel says:

    Very appropriate metaphor at the end there, Stu.
    Carwyn Jones is a total idiot. Scottish independence is a boon for him. Welsh devolution would look very different if it wasn’t for our struggle for independence (would it even have happened yet?), and if he thinks he’d be getting a referendum on increased powers if it wasn’t for us, he’s living in a dream world.
    If Scotland bottles it next year, not only does it give Westminster carte blanche to do whatever it wants to Scotland, it also gives them the confidence to start saying No to Wales. In fact, they could even go as far as to dare Wales to have an independence referendum – “if you want more powers, take them yourself. Otherwise, shut up.”
    Conversely, if Scotland votes Yes next year, Carwyn Jones can go to Westminster and say “See what happens when you don’t give people the devolution they want? Give me all these powers listed here NOW, or it’ll be Wales leaving next.”
    (Of course, Westminster might simply go “fair enough, off you go!”)

  16. alexicon says:

    @Big Red Machine & Horacesaysyes.
    Agreed, but we also have our part to play.
    Its about time someone (more computer savvy than me) came up with a leaflet spelling out which main stream press outlets (name and shame) are showing bias and why that bias is being told.
    Make our own headlines and post them through voters doors.
    That’s the only way were going to circumvent the barstewards.

  17. Ekindy says:

    Feeling a bit better after a tea break discussion with wormates in the factory. Think the Rev and the guys may be right that folk arent buying what they are being told at the moment. Most workmates while not declaring if they were Yes or not seem to fully understand it wont be carry on regardless with a No vote.
    As Rev says once all the guns are firing i think these guys would sway to Yes.

  18. GrahamB says:

    I’ve been saying for ages that I remember what happened after the 1979 referendum. We were seen by Thatcher to be too stupid and anyway we were too wee to oppose her so we rapidly became too poor as well!
    Call Kaye: very much pro-Yes with only a couple of dissenting voices including someone from Aberdeen saying everything was fine – he would if he is in the prosperous sector in Aberdeen. Spookily the parallel topic is bullying but so far no-one has made any connection with the unionist bulies.

  19. Barontorc says:

    I would like to know what’s coming up strategically from YES after the White Paper launch. If it’s to sit in the corner with arms folded, we’ll be stupidly giving way too much ground to the wreckers. I would truly like to believe that a program is awaiting, ready to unfold , on schedule and totally appropriate in support of the facts clearly spelled out in the WP.
    There will come a time when a catalyst needs to be introduced. It has to be hard and positive and countermanding of all the crazy scare stories we’ll be swamped with. The powder is extremely dry and ready to flash – don’t let us down YES.

  20. Fergie 35 says:

    Carwyn Jones is just the Tamborene player in a big orchestration, and I reckon even the non politically minded will be thinking who is this condescending Welshman.
    Just after the BBC presented him this morning, they went on to say there will be no Dr Who after Independence, what a laugh, so the Irish can get the BBC and Dr Who for free!?!
    Oh well, at least there will be no license fee to pay and no politically controled media either.

  21. Macart says:

    I’m laughing on the inside.
    Outwardly though, there’s a shiver running up my spine. They really are arrogant enough to threaten the dismantling of devolution before ink has hit the ballot papers.
    Vote NO and this is what you are signing up to.

  22. alexicon says:

    @Fergie 35,
    Not only do the Irish get it for free, the French, Dutch, Danes and Germans, all parts of get it for free. TV transmissions don’t recognise borders.

  23. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Big Red Machine –
    I can see where you’re coming from, and share your frustration. I’m sure ‘Yes’ will get tough eventually, but why do it right now? It would be like hauling out a Magnum against someone who’s been firing paper pellets at you with a rubber band.
    They have no decent arguments. They have no positive case. As and when they produce some serious threat? Aye – both barrels.
    That’s not to say that individuals can’t express themselves as powerfully as they feel is appropriate, case by case – not all of us are interested in becoming accredited ‘Yes’ ambassadors – but so far BT simply hasn’t produced anything worth getting het-up about. They’re losing, and they know we know it.
    We can keep our gas on a peep while they boil away in their own froth.

  24. Murray McCallum says:

    ““One Nation” – meaning crippling tuition fees, … “
    I’m hoping that SoS Carmichael MP will come to our rescue and pledge no tuition fees and/or no increase for the next 50 years. That man’s word is his [junk] bond.

  25. Alex Taylor says:

    I’m all for these interventions. They can only help the the undecideds see what’s coming down the line.
    A spokesperson from the Local Government Association in England was on Radio Scotland bemoaning Scotland’s better deal and insisting it should be reduced to reflect the deal available in the English regions.
    Great stuff if we can get it out there.

  26. HandandShrimp says:

    I will give Jones this, he is a far better orator than Lamont and Co. However, one does get the feeling that he has been trundled north to SpEak HIS BraNEs and bolster the No vote. Presuambly, given his words, he is a keen advocate for the EU countries to scrap the Euro and return to their old currencies (he may well be – many of the old Labour peeps were very anti the EU and wanted out back in 75).
    Talking of poor orators,  I thought Paul Martin’s performance over the forthcoming White Paper last night was risible. Desperately peeved would be a good description.  

  27. Cymru Rydd says:

    It’s a national embarrassment for Wales to see our First Minister in Scotland doing such dirty work on behalf of the UK state. He is a spineless politician, completely in the pocket of Welsh Labour’s Westminster contingent, who don’t want to see any diminishment of their gravy train to London, and will therefore fight tooth and nail against further powers for Wales.
    His craven attitude can be seen in the fact that he said that he can’t see any income tax referendum being won in Wales, and that there is no rush at all for Wales to start to be responsible for raising part of its money. He’s now being outflanked by the Conservatives for God’s sake, since the Welsh Secretary of State, David Jones is now urging the Welsh Government to hold this referendum as soon as possible!!
    Ironically, his speech in Scotland was another reason for the people of Scotland to choose independence, because in essence  he was saying please stay in the UK so we can reform the Barnett formula and give you less money!
    Carwyn is living in dream land if he thinks that a NO vote will lead to reforming Barnett in any positive way for Wales: it will just strengthen the hand of London to do as it wishes, and to slash public spending in Wales and Scotland even further.

  28. Alistair Wilson says:

    Looks like they are having to bring in ‘foreign’ mercenaries to fight the ‘ground war’ already.

  29. Macsen says:

    Just like to say as a Welshman that I’m totally embarrassed by Carwyn Jones’s efforts. Totally humilating. Like the school snitch doing the dirty work for the bully.

    And of course, like all Welsh Labour AMs he has to mention rugby.

    His government is a waste of space. Carwyn Jones’s Govt bought Cardiff Airport for £50m … only to allow London not to allow the Welsh Assembly powes over airport tax because it would undermine Britol airport! It’s a joke.

    He has no ambition for Wales, the Welsh language. His legacy is one of many great promises and targets which are just not kept.

    His analogy to the Welsh rugby team is actually, if he thought of it, a case for independence. That is, Wales has its own independent rugby team and as so enjoys the fruits of its success. Under Carwyn Jones’s world-view, and devo-minimum, Wales shouldn’t have it’s own independent rugby team.

    The man is an embarrassment. My only consolation is that enough Scots will be insulted so much by a second rate politician telling them that Scotland should know its place and aim to be as useless as Wales, that they’ll vote Yes in Sept 2014.

    Lets hope Carwyn Jones has helped the Yes campaign.
    Yours from Wales.

  30. Les Wilson says:

    O/T Just listening to “call Kaye !) something I rarely do, I may add. Well I guess it did not go the way BBC wanted or suspected it would go. There were two subjects for discussion one was the Welsh First Ministers warning to Scotland and his right to do so. 
    The other subject was bullying at school.
    It very soon became apparent that the very logical people who phoned in were, apart from one Welshman who works here. Were supportive of the ministers right to have his say. However, of the callers at that time was 6-1 FOR Indy, despite the sly comments of the interviewer to slightly skew them in favour of what the Minister said.
    They would have wanted disgruntled no voter as is the BBC fix, it did not happen, so after seeing where this was going, they were off to the bullying issue. I dare say if they had the Anti Independent caller they wish for, then a lot more time would have been available for the subject.
    It made my morning a bit happier somehow!
    Let us not forget either that this minister is Labour, and while he may have little input in the debate or be able to carry out his threats against a currency Union, his job is to create concern in Scottish voters.
    If it were Welsh Referendum we would wish them luck. Far different from his intentions over the removal of the Barnet formula such as he wants to see happen, knowing Scotland would lose out big time, friends like these!
    Remember too, he is firmly in the Unionist camp as is all labour, and assists the Tories in this. So let us see it as it really is.

  31. msean says:

    Just heard labour referred to as a dependence party on radio,i agreed with that lol

  32. theunicorn says:

    I’m delighted to see this reported in the main stream media at last. The people of Scotland must wake up and realise a No vote means a mandate to say No to any future requests/demands for funding from the Scottish parliament no matter the political colour of the party in power in the future. Expect to see calls for the abolition of the SP to save money with powers being devolved to Local Government. If that happens the brain drain from this country will make the highland clearances look like a wee holiday abroad. Scotland will return to its original purpose as a hunting and fishing estate somewhere in the far North. Of course a few savages will be left to tend the estates and to keep the thieving starving hordes off the land. £10 ticket to New Zealand anyone ?

  33. msean says:

    re this thing where people in non Scots constuencies in the south bemoan not having a referendum vote,would they like us in the north to have a say in your elections?One thing would be sure,you wouldn’t be electing tories then.

  34. Arfon Jones says:

    The phrase “Uncle Tom” has also become an epithet for a person who is slavish and excessively subservient to perceived authority figures and that is Carwyn Jones.

  35. ronnie anderson says:

    Call me Dave, couldnt get in on the discussion C Kaye but is another chance next Wed after AS introduse the next WP ,I had a ice wee chat to the wee lassy that puts you in the system to go on air , crack a joke or two they remember you I hope a lot of us are online / phoneing in next week .
    REV,  GET some good points up  Tues Night ,for us to through into the discussion

  36. cjmasta says:

    Totally agree, the YES campaign need to go on the offensive with their own project fear if you like.  They`re missing a trick if they don`t. The positive message should be rolled out after we highlight all the negatives and there`s plenty time to do this.

    It`s been clear for a while now that contrary to the promises of more powers for the Scottish Parliament there will be less as they move powers away to councils and it`s very telling that all those talking of such only ever talk of it happening here in Scotland. What about England ? NI? Wales?

    Scotland will become another experiment (poll tax) and the main reason for change has nothing at all to do with giving Scots what they want but has everything to do with countering Scotland daring to threaten to leave Westminster`s power over us all.

    One nation Britain should strike fear in all of us, any vision for Scotland emanating from Westminster is a scary prospect for us.
    Time to get the gloves off because it`s going to get very dirty.

    Has any country gaining its independence not had to fight for it?

  37. MochaChoca says:

    I presume as Jones is singing off the same hymn sheet as Miliband / Lamont with regard to their proposls for the Barnett deal in Scotland.
    If not, which of them is lying?

  38. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Big Red Machine at 9.55
    Ok. We’ll give you the job of making sure all the vast amount of information being put out daily by YES and the SNP is prominently printed in the press and announced on the BBC.
    I’m sure they’ll do it for you

  39. faolie says:

    People of Wales arise and tell these jocks to behave! Doesn’t ring true somehow, and doesn’t sound like the (admittedly few) Welsh I’ve met.
    Anyhoo, Jones sounded like an ill-informed buffoon on telly, clearly spouting rubbish straight from the BT hymn sheet. ‘An independent central bank would make independence worthless.’ Aye right Carwyn, tell that to the French and Spanish and Italians and Dutch etc etc
    Jeez, they’re really scraping the barrel if they think shipping up some Welsh lackey is going to scare us into voting no. Just more grist to the FiF mill.

  40. caz-m says:

    The First Minister of Wales says “devolution is working”.

    Try telling Welsh university students that. They will be landed with £30 000 worth of debt for a 3 year uni degree plus living expenses.

    The First Minister of Wales would like to see this in Scotland as part of the “One Nation” vision he has.

    Here is what Welsh students have got to look forward to.

  41. Andrew Morton says:

    Alistair Wilson says
    Looks like they are having to bring in ‘foreign’ mercenaries to fight the ‘ground war’ already.
    i have just registered myself for the phone in and pledged £25 payable at the event. Unfortunately I have a prior engagement and won’t be able to attend. I encourage readers to do likewise.
    Vis à vis Mr Jones, of the two adjectives used to describe him, Welsh and Labour, I suspect that the latter is the key one here.

  42. Papadocx says:

    Mr Jones will get his reward, white ermin robe and pockets stuffed with cash. Same as the proud SLAB ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s in the bunker. These are conviction politicians (or should it be convicted). 
    There is NO going back to the start line. If we win then we get on with it and create our own country in the image we want and live with it, sounds pretty good to me.

  43. liz says:

    I agree about going on the defensive but not before next year.
    Wasn’t there statistics which proved that if both sides were negative, the more negative approach won.
    I think it’s the same wiith the poster campaign that some have suggested – I think this is a great idea for people wo are not deep into politics – such as the one which shows where the wealth is made and where it goes – but again next year.
    What is really sad about this is that they are now setting the Welsh, the Northern English and the NI against us and diverting attention away from where the problem is which is the South East.
    Another point I noticed yesterday- and I’ve been reading tha much I cant rmember where – was that Inner London, followed by outer London had the most graduatesin the UK  and Scotland was 3rd!
    And O/T did anyone see in the Questions for Independance on the beeb website –
      in January 2012 the International Organisation for Standards (ISO) officially reclassified Wales as a country.
    That is really interesting as they can – in the event of a yes- continue to call themselves the UK -I think  the writing is on the wall – they are expecting a Yes.

  44. faolie says:

    Agree, btw, that we need to keep our powder dry. We’re drawing their fire nicely just now and by next spring / summer they’ll be shouting in frustration while the No vote continues to change to DK. I’d guess by then one of the MSM will have broken cover too. THAT’S the time to return withering and overwhelming fire power.

  45. liz says:

    Apologies for some errors it posted to quickly for me to edit.

  46. John MacIntyre OBE says:

    “Here’s the Labour First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, one year ago.”
    And here’s the SNP First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, the day before yesterday:-
     the pound is ”a millstone round Scotland’s neck” and “the Euro is an example of why Scotland needs [EU] membership status so that it can take a decision on entry into the single currency.” 

  47. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    With the first of the Strathclyde University debates coming out strongly in favour of independence that’s three universities in a row – and no press coverage whatsover, despite the Glasgow University NO vote a few months ago being plastered all over the media 

  48. roberto says:

    tell the people who live in Scotland, when the Barnett formula goes, 1200 pounds per head annually will be removed from Scotlands block grant,in the aftermath of a no vote.

  49. Marcia says:

    Someone with a Alex Salmond fixation didn’t use the line. ‘….but when the facts change, so does your opinion’.

  50. ronnie anderson says:

    Rev, I have to dissagree with you there,  ( re the Big Red comment) I am of the same opinion you use a Boxing  metaphor ( rope a dope ) as with any fight it starts long before the ring The Scottish People need to be made aware  that the YES  Campain have One Hand Tied behind their back  (  ie  BBC / MSM ) Bias reporting / Bias Interviewers , that information should be perused constantly, they have the bigger / wider reach in getting their voice heard, the only way I see to counter their Bias is on a monetery baseis ( not paying Bbc licence fee / not buying newspapers )  until such times as they provide UnBiased information / and taking that message to their Own Doorsteps  by demonstrations You know it makes sence I hope I will be fit and able by Jan I wll doorstep the Bbc / Msm on my own if need be. This country,s worth fighting for then we drop the kid gloves / and take the bare arsed boxer stance / ( a quote of my father Light W Champion Gordon Highlanders ) he and  Benny Linch good sparing partners ,W can b polite but dont mess with me voice

  51. John McKay says:

    Quelle surprise! The LABOUR FM of Wales comes out of his bunker to bang the ‘No’ drum. Joining Alistair Darling, bizarrely in bed with the unholy Westminster Tory/Lib/Lab pact to block Scottish self determination. As per usual, Kaye Adams (disguised as Louise White) did her best this morning in our ‘national’ radio station, to give the ‘No’ camp maximum exposure. I get more optimistic every day. When Mr Darling resorts to drafting in his labour cronies from Wales, I know it’s a slam dunk for ‘Yes’. 

  52. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Scottish People need to be made aware that the YES Campain have One Hand Tied behind their back ( ie BBC / MSM ) Bias reporting / Bias”

    Crivvens above, Ronnie, what do you think we’ve been doing for the last two years…?

  53. ronnie anderson says:

    ps Rev & the wealth of Info by your good self & others

  54. Murray McCallum says:

    And here’s the SNP First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, the day before yesterday
    Are you saying Alex Salmond made these statements on the 19th November 2013?
    Speaking of the past, I see former PM Tony Blair remains pro UK adoption of the Euro – case may become “compelling” he said in June 2011 at the height of Euro troubles.

  55. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What is really sad about this is that they are now setting the Welsh, the Northern English and the NI against us”

    Yep, Sinn Fein want Barnett abolished too:

  56. cjmasta says:

    As long as the YES campaign don`t go on the offensive we will constantly be on the back foot having to defend our position. Maybe this is part of the reason the NO campaign get away from having difficult questions being asked of them most of the time.

    The IFS report being taken as gospel this week by the media should have been aggressively shot down and called into question but I didn`t see it happen.

  57. John Kerr says:

    Re the Rev’s comment above about 14% of cuts  equating to £9 Billion, this was the level of cuts that Ruth Davidson said Scotland could expect if we voted NO.  I think this was at last years Perth Tory conference.

    To give that figure some perspective, the whole of the college and university funding figure is a little over 1/2 billion.  So perhaps we should just do away with further education and maybe wipe out half of the welfare and pensions funding and that will just about balance the books.  Do the DK’s and No’s really not understand what is being lined up for Scotland?  If we vote no, the country will not know what’s hit it.  Even the very capable John Swinney wouldn’t be able to balance this sort of budget cut.

    I spend a lot of time talking to people who are generally apathetic to the whole referendum debate and I reckon I’ve converted, or at least persuaded about 12 people to vote YES, who otherwise were not intending to vote.  I don’t tend to play the Fear card, although on occasion I have deliberately rattled a few of the die hard Unionists and Monarchists with some of the potential cuts to be expected in the event of a NO vote – I’ve got to have some fun sometimes.  I am fairly positive we are going to do this, from the feedback I am getting, although still disappointed on occasion at the “cringe” that comes from people I expected more of.

    With regard to the BBC and Pacific Quay, personally I would put padlocks and chains on the front door and bulldoze the whole lot into the Clyde.  Sorry if anybody finds this offensive, but it’s not nearly as offensive as the constant ("Tractor" - Ed)ous statements emanating from there on a daily basis.  Pushing the whole lot into the river may not necessarily work as sh*te floats.  They are nothing short of a National disgrace.

    Also as to negotiating how much we should pay to continue to watch there TV programmes, I would suggest £0.  If you can’t do without them, buy a satellite dish or get Freesat.  I can watch BBC1 and BBC2 Scotland, STV, Channel 4 and 5 all free of charge in our home on the Costa Blanca in Spain without paying a penny for it, so I think we might just be able to pick up a signal here in Rutherglen.

  58. Marcia says:

    Murray McCallum
    It was an very old quote dredged up by Jim Naughtie two days ago on the Radio 4 Today programme who mentioned that when interviewing  John Swinney .

  59. Alex Taylor says:

    @ cjmasta
    That is the whole problem we’ve been discussing. It is not a fair fight. They only report what they want us to hear and shut down everything else.
    We’ll get no help from the MSM. We, you and me, need to get out and let people know what’s happening. Stuart is doing his bit.

  60. caz-m says:

    The howls coming from Holyrood are getting louder. It must be getting near FMQ’s.

    The “bunker” doors will be getting opened soon and the tribe will be lead up to the chamber for their weekly scream.

  61. creigs1707repeal says:

    So according to the IFS, iScotland (a YES vote) will see an annual deficit of £3 bn. However, opting to remain in the UK (a NO vote) will see Barnett most likely scrapped and a loss of £4bn annually to Scotland.
    Do the (“maths” – RevStu).

  62. Murray McCallum says:

    “It was an very old quote dredged up by Jim Naughtie two days ago on the Radio 4 Today programme who mentioned that when interviewing  John Swinney .”
    I thought it was an old quote. I trust Jim Naughtie mentioned Tony Blair’s (far more recent) Euro enthusiasm too. The BBC seeking to provide balance to the debate and all that…!

  63. Brotyboy says:

    Don’t feed the troll.

  64. Marcia says:

    Strangely no. What you cannot get in the comment I made was the sneering way Naughtie put it.

  65. JLT says:

    Jones better be careful for what he wishes for.
    If Carwyn Jones doesn’t want us to use Sterling, and the UK Government agrees with him, then fine …so be it.
    We don’t use Sterling. We don’t take any of the debt.
    Jones can then explain to the people of Wales as to why their taxes are going up tenfold since they will be forced to pay for Scotland’s share of the debt.

  66. Luigi says:

    So, a NO vote in the Scottish referendum next year will lead to greater devolution for Wales?
    Dream on, Mr Jones, dream on! 

  67. theunicorn says:

    Have the Welsh no sense of their own history. When Llywelyn ap Gruffud and his men fought and died for their country his head was paraded in London at the end of a lance. They then put it on an iron spike and crowned it with ivy thereby fulfilling an old prophecy that a Welshman would one day wear a crown in London. Dafydd ap Gruffud was left to save his country from English conquest but he suffered the same horrific fate as William Wallace was later made to suffer.

    The trouble with the Welsh is that they no longer exist as a nation but rather as a province of a greater England. The Anglified Welsh can sense the way the wind is blowing and they want their hands on some of our Barnett formula funds. However the same vein of subterfuge and blatant self interest runs through their country as it does ours, the Labour Party who will be more than iinclined to grant them the favour. Who would have guessed it ?. Its utterly disgraceful.

  68. Marker Post says:

    “[Danny Alexander] is a Scottish Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Reforming a system that wouldn’t help Scotland is not something that would be high on his agenda. I can’t see it before 2014”.
    Is there an implication in there that Alexander would consider it after a No vote?
    Or, would there just be a cabinet reshuffle the day after the referendum, and get someone in there who would?

  69. MochaChoca says:

    I’m looking forward to the reaction when our FM heads down to Wales to give them the benefit of his advice on their constitutional arrangements.

  70. Gordon says:

    #Doug Daniel.
    What makes you think that Carwyn Jones has any interest in more devolution far less independence for Wales. He is a Unionist Labour politician (like our lot) tied firmly to London, hoping for the reward of anointment to the House of Lords in the twilight of his career.
    Of course he will try to block an independent Scotland if there is any danger of the contagion (democracy) spreading to Wales.

  71. call me dave says:

    Perhaps the historians among you can decipher the ambiguities in the legal position re Wales being able to, as Scotland was, vote for independence.
    I read that Wales, is not in the fortunate position that Scotland is in and there is no legal framework to move forward. Henry VIII and all that stuff.
    Anyhoo! Try this page 24 to 27 outlines the Welsh position re: Scottish independenc.

  72. a supporter says:

    “You might call that negative campaigning,”

    There’s nothing wrong with a good helping of negative campaigning if it is showing up deficiencies in your opponents case.

  73. JLT says:

    Call me Dave
    I think I can see what you are asking. To begin with, the days of Wales being a conquered colony of medieval England are long over.
    My guess is that if Plaid Cymru can get a majority within the Welsh Assembly, and if it was an option during their victorious campaign, then I believe, legally, they can approach Westminster, and ask for a Referendum.
    Westminster could say ‘No’ as Wales is not in the same position as Scotland. Scotland and England joined as a Union, where as Wales was ‘conquered’. However, if Westminster does say that, then it may rile the Welsh into demanding a referendum.
    Westminster could say that Plaid Cymru must take so many seats in a General Election for a referendum to be put on the table.

    Plaid Cymru could hold Scotland up as an example in Westminster, and state that as we are all equal nations, then what is given to one, must be given to the others, so if Plaid Cymru do take the Welsh Assembly with a majority, then they can ask for a referendum for their nation.
    That would be my take on it.

  74. Vronsky says:

    Hey, ease up Rev.  This is the moron who wants to host WMD in Wales when we chuck them out.  Leave the man alone – never heard the expression ‘useful idiot’?

  75. Hetty says:

    I have decided to get out there on the 26th handing out leaflets at train station, the SNP are asking for as many as poss to partake on the day of the white paper. So, if anyone feels so inclined join me then, I’m doing the evening slot not sure which Edinburgh station yet though. Too much couch potatoe campaigning on my part so far! 

  76. ronnie anderson says:

    Rev, Ah might have come late to your Wingers, but notwithstanding,the MSM have the upperhand in ,Bais information output, not every one has internet, knowledge of the wealth of Indy site, for accurate information,m post is in no way a critque of YOU & your helpers( we would be in dire straights without Wings/ Indy sites, but we must get the message out to the wider Scottish population ,as and when debunking falsehoods before it has a chance to gather legs, ie Caths Asda delivery  driver persuaded to Yes backwards to No ie Bias Media Cut them off at the Knees

  77. Luigi says:

    Perhaps the current legal/constitutional situation in Wales is more comparable to that of Catalonia than Scotland.  If Scotland votes YES next year, the people of Wales will demand a much greater level of self-determination, and that is what terrifies BT Labour the most.  It would be ironic if, in denying the people of Scotland a question on devomax, the long-term result of unionist belligerence is devomax for Wales.  It could happen.  Sweet.

  78. Fergie 35 says:

    Carwyn Jones is the man that said Wales will take the 200 nuclear warheads from the Clyde to Wales, ofcourse the people of Wales, like Scotland, don’t have a say in that.

    The man’s a neep.

  79. Hetty says:

    English councils short-changed by UK spending formula, says LGA
    just spotted this on bbc online, apparently the money needs to be ‘repatriated’. Huh? How can you repatriate what you already have control over?

  80. Hetty says:

    Comhairle approves North Uist wind farm opposed by MOD.
    bbc news article.
    Another reason why they are so desperate to hold onto Scotland? 

  81. theunicorn says:

    Luigi your spot on – they have created a crisis of their own making. UK-OK is facing a constitutional crisis and the panic buttons have been pressed. Thats what I love about recrudescence. Once a nation always a nation. They should have thought about the old phrase “Nemo me impune lacessit” before they treated us with contempt and peddled their lies and misinformation. Game on. 

  82. ronnie anderson says:

    John Kerr, any building sites roon aboot Atlantic Quay , a bent nail starts wan o they big dossers, point it in the rite direction , jump aff lol

  83. X_Sticks says:

    “But only in the same way that it’s “negative” to tell someone standing in the middle of a railway track that if they don’t move, they’re going to get killed.”

    I’m so stealing that one Stu

  84. ronnie anderson says:

    Faolie, am no the speelin / wordin polis ( hy you seen some o ma posts ffs) but did you n mean unwithering overwhelming fire power ( ah wuldna like tae think we we’re runnin oota bullets ) lol

  85. call me dave says:

    Thanks for that.
    Last year:Jan 2012.
    Membership of Plaid has gone up 23% in the past four months. And while its senior politicians once held that pointed talk about independence was a vote-loser, all four of the current leadership candidates are falling over themselves to underline their vision of a Wales finally free from the English yoke.

  86. X_Sticks says:

    Oh, look! There’s John MacIntyre OBE. (snigger)

  87. Lou Nisbet says:

    Has no one else noticed the laughable alteration by the Scotsman to (“Wales could block efforts by an independent Scotland to join a pound-sharing pact”.) Talk about  propaganda lies – it’s risible nonsense.

  88. faolie says:

    @ronnie Lol. No, I meant withering, in the sense of scorching, unremitting, intense. They used to describe the machine gun fire in WW1 as ‘withering’.
    I kinda think it’s the other side, ie BT, that’ll have run out of ammo by then 🙂

  89. Jingly Jangly says:

    Plan A Currency Union using sterling with real input into policy and decisions , take whats left of our share of the UK national debt after assets are accounted for. Leave our share of the Gold in London, leave the 3 billion deposited by Scottish Banks in the BOE to cover the use of Scottish Pound notes.

    Plan B Use Sterling without any input into policy and decisions (Status Quo) and take on none of the debt incurred by the UK (NB Scottish was mostly in surplus when debt incurred so no moral reason to take it on) Both Australia and Ireland used Sterling post independence in Australia’s case the Australian Pound was pegged to Sterling.

    We already have Scots pounds, if no currency union about 3 billion pounds deposited by Scottish Banks in the BOE will have to be returned to them, meaning the UK will have to borrow a further 3bn to pay it back.

    We will also have our share of the UK Gold reserves, although its not much as Gordon Brown sold it off cheap, (Losing about a grand an oz – Smart Guy wonder what happened to him)

    The UK Balance of payments will take a 70 billion or more a year hit,  cant remember exact figures but the UK’s balance of payments is one of the worst in the World, this 70 Billion a year hit would probably put it into the relegation zone!!!!

  90. Beastie says:

    “You might call that negative campaigning, and perhaps it is. But only in the same way that it’s “negative” to tell someone standing in the middle of a railway track that if they don’t move, they’re going to get killed.”

    Exactly. The Brit Nat approach to negative is ‘this might happen’ and ‘you couldn’t do this’ and none of it has any solid factual basis. On the other hard, cuts to the Scottish Block Grant, which already syphons off a sizable chunk of what we pay in, are to be cut in the 2014/2015 fiscal year, stated by no other political personality than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, history graduate Gideon Osbourne….. oh, ok, not personality, since he’s got about all the charisma of a cheesecake, but you know what I mean. It’s a matter of public record; he stated it. This is the fiscal equivalent of getting hit by that train. It is something that is going to happen. Fact, not something the Brit Nat side have much time for.
    We will get screwed in 2015… whether we vote yes or not. But if we vote yes we’ll only get screwed in 2015, because in 2016 the money stops going to the middle man and stays in Scotland. If we vote no… we are the national equivalent of a f**kbuddy… screw us whenever you feel like it.

  91. Andy-B says:

    Can’t really add much too that Rev, you got it bang on.
    Except to say Carwyn Jones, has obtained more devolved powers for the Welsh Assembly, or has been promised more powers by Westminster, maybe his part of the bargain is to keep promoting anti-independece for Scotland.
    Mind you I’m not surprised if that indeed is the case, he’s a Labour man afterall.

  92. Bannock Hussler says:


  93. Wales is at the bottom of just about every economic league table in the EU. And yet our FM is up in Scotland after being bought for a few token tax raising powers that he doesn’t even have the balls to use.

    By doing the dirty work for David Cameron and telling Scotland to remain in the UK he is basically telling everyone in the UK that he’s endorsing the Tories. This clown previously said that he would gladly take Trident off your hands, he has people in his own constituency facing eviction due to the bedroom tax. Councils around Wales that are run by his party have voted against banning evictions.

    It’s UK policies such as Trident and the bedroom tax that will see people who are not nationalists vote for independence simply to be free from London’s war against the poor and disabled.

    There isn’t much that shocks me about the Red Tories any more but him being bought for so little and then having the brass neck to stick his nose in up there whilst his ‘government’ are literally killing people down here has shocked me.

  94. Crefishgyn says:

    The bizarre thing to Welah ears is that this is the same feckless Carwyn Jones who told us before the last election that he was against any tax-varying powers for Wales on the grounds “because I am a Unionist.”  Having argued against Wales taking more responsibility for her finances he has a damned cheek to go outside our borders to lecture anyone else on their political or economic futures. Apologies Scotland. We’ll try to stop him at the border next time. 

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