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Every kind of illiterate

Posted on November 21, 2013 by

There’s pretty much nothing about Labour’s latest fearmongering anti-independence leaflet (revealed exclusively by us on Tuesday night) that doesn’t make us facepalm.


The only difficult thing is deciding which aspect is the most idiotic.

The sub-editor in us, for example, wants to roll it up tightly into a sharp point and ram it into their eyeballs, earholes and anywhere else we can think of for an especially moronic use of what’s already the world’s most hideous boil on the face of typography – the screamingly cretinous US invention known as “title case”, in which words are capitalised more or less at random.

Johann Lamont used to be an English teacher – God save us all – so we’d love to hear her explain why the words “Means”, “You”, “Schools”, “Cut Tax” and many more in that leaflet have capital letters. They’re not the titles of anything, they’re not proper nouns, and they’re not at the start of sentences.

But that’s just a personal bugbear of ours, and one that’s commonly perpetrated by mouth-breathing dimwits the globe over, not just Scottish Labour. Rather more importantly, the tiny document manages to also pack in a considerable degree of economic, factual and political illiteracy.

The economic part is that – obviously – no government cuts Corporation Tax with the intention of having less money in its coffers. The policy may or may not work in any given individual set of circumstances, but its intended effect is always to generate more inward investment, which leads to more employment, which leads to a lower welfare bill and more consumer spending, which leads to growth, all of which (more than) offsets the reduced Corporation Tax receipts.

So to portray a proposed cut in Corporation Tax as meaning less money for the NHS and schools is not only dishonest but insultingly dishonest. We very much doubt that voters are stupid enough to imagine that the SNP really wants to have less money to spend on schools. How would that be in the SNP’s interests?

Then there’s the logical illiteracy, which manifests in several ways. Firstly, the idea that there’d be less money for the NHS and schools even if personal taxation had been increased. You can get people to believe that services will be cut if their taxes go down, or to accept that they can only get better services by paying more tax, but telling them they’ll pay more tax AND see their services slashed is treating the electorate as gullible simpletons.

Next up is factual illiteracy. A reduction in Corporation Tax would be for ALL businesses, not just large ones. It would create no advantage for large companies over small ones that doesn’t exist now. It would also have no inherent impact whatsoever on the size of bankers’ bonuses, because the bonuses of senior executives rarely have any relationship to the profits of the companies involved.

“More than 100 bankers at Royal Bank of Scotland were paid more than £1m last year and total bonus payouts reached nearly £1bn – even though the bailed-out bank reported losses of £1.1bn for 2010.”

And finally, there’s the political illiteracy. The reverse of the leaflet describes the SNP policy as “right-wing economics”. So we can logically assume that Labour politicians, and especially Scottish ones, would have no truck with such things, right?

“We have cut corporation tax twice and I want to go further. We will reduce the tax again when we are able.”

Wait, which insane right-wing economist determined to divert money from the NHS and schools to bankers’ bonuses and big business said that? Well, naturally it was Gordon Brown, speaking to the Institute Of Directors at the Royal Albert Hall in April 2008.

If you were wondering, the financial crisis had already been going for the best part of a year at that point. The “run” on Northern Rock took place in September 2007, and the bank was taken into public ownership the following February, months before Brown’s speech. But a Labour Prime Minister was still proud of having reduced Corporation Tax twice, and promising to do it again as soon as possible.

So we’re not quite sure what’s turned cutting Corporation Tax from a proud, socialist, progressive, redistributive policy into an evil, right-wing one aimed at hammering the poor. We’ve asked several Labour figures, but they’ve all been a bit too busy to explain. If you know any, get them to tell you and then pass it on to us, would you?

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  1. 29 08 14 21:57

    48 Lies | A Wilderness of Peace

111 to “Every kind of illiterate”

  1. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I have been warned about describing Labour’s efforts as playing for the” half-wit vote”.
    I don’t know how much longer I can desist – or should desist 

  2. The Penman says:

    I asked one*, and got the response: “But…but…separatists…Alex Salmond is fat!”  
    Seems self-explanatory enough. 

    *not really. 

  3. Luigi says:

      Desperate stuff. It’s like watching a roller skater trying to gain some traction on ice.
    AS is well capable of placing a few banana skins in their path, but to be honest, he doesn’t have to!  Never interupt an enemy …

  4. handclapping says:

    Its not illiteracy, its dishonesty. An argument based on a deliberately false premise otherwise known a a lie.

  5. Roger Mexico says:

    It would be fairly standard headline capitalisation (if still hideously ugly) if they had use ‘Money’ and ‘Taxes’ below.  Would a psychologist like to comment on why these don’t seem to deserve capital letters when they apply to ordinary people (or ‘You’ as they say) 

  6. Andy A says:

    Although corporation tax wasn’t the subject of choice today the term ‘right-wing economics’ was parroted by Johann at FMQs today. Must be Labour’s latest catchphrase.  I thought that Alex completely demolished her arguments regarding the IFS report after the first two questions yet she kept coming back for more using her script. He effectively turned the IFS report round into a big positive for independence but Johann appeared to be too dimwitted to notice.

  7. Vincent McDee says:

    I don’t know about the “half-wit” vote, Dave, as it’s not a fact but an opinion.
    What having that opinion of the voters shows is the wee wit of the spouters.
    We must not confuse labour voters with labour party (anywhere in the world) idiocy.

  8. Atypical_Scot says:

    When G Brown blessed us with the cut in corporation tax back in 2008, guess what happened? An immediate massive boom in the jobless sector.
    See chart on this link;

  9. John G says:

    It is the Ian Duncan Smith school of politics. Just say what you like, make the lie as big as you can and continue saying it as many times as possible. Then when someone points out that you have lied, continue saying it anyway. There seems to be no level low enough that SLab will not plough to get a vote. What level they will have reached by next September should be a worry for everyone.

    As for Ruth Davidson and her Dr Who scare story today, I am actually concerned for her.  How can anyone take this woman seriously after it!! having seen the Sun picture of AS as a Dalek, it shows the reasoning behind the story. never mind the truth about it being shown in 75 countries, it gives them a cheap shot at the FM. For my part I have this vision not of AS but Ian Davidson as the Dalek, wheeling around screaming “seperashun, seperashun” while bayoneting any survivors on planet Scotland!!

    If this is the level they are at now god help us all!!

  10. david says:

    but Johann appeared to be too dimwitted to notice.
    Does anyone believe she has even the tiniest understanding of these reports? Doubt it very mucho

  11. balgayboy says:

    The FM was in fine form today and masterly turned the unionist attack on the IFS findings to make a positive case for Independence.
    Over the last couple of weeks I get the feeling that the BT shower are realising that the Yes vote is gaining the upper hand and they are showing definite signs of bricking it.

  12. creigs1707repeal says:

    Do they really think people will swallow this rubbish? I mean REALLY?

  13. Marker Post says:

    I notice this is a leaflet from United with Labour (Working Together, Stronger Together), not Better Together.
    Ooh… see what I did there?

  14. Murray McCallum says:

    Labour politicians and advisers really do seem to have a goldfish approach to views on policy.
    Just to be clear I mean this as a compliment – it is a myth that goldfish have poor short term memory, e.g. losing their memory by the time they swim around their chamber. They can actually retain memories for at least three months.

  15. Macart says:

    That truly is a desperate leaflet.
    Not just misinformation, but utter misleading, misinformed bollocks top to toe. 

  16. heraldnomore says:

    Having tuned into FMQs I was, of course, shaking in my boots, at the prospects of the Debater of the Year letting loose with the full range of her skills.
    No, honest, I was.
    And she didn’t let me down, performing exactly as expected.  Sleekit, girnin’, rantin’.  More yes votes.  Thanks JoLa.  Keep it up.  Never lose that ability to read from a script.  It’s being able to think on your feet that does it for me.  Staggering wumman.

  17. Another London Dividend says:

    Innumerate Danny Alexander saying UK public spending of £10,150 per head in Scotland is a massive bonus for being part of the UK.

    But the the “highly respected independent” IFS reports that most recent Tax Revenues raised in Scotland amounted to £11,079 per head.

    So that’s a subsidy of £929 paid by every man women and child in Scotland.

  18. JLT says:

    ‘Johann Lamont used to be an English teacher’
    Hey Rev! One of my workmates, a Glaswegian, was taught by her in his youth.
    In his words, she was ‘utterly f***ing useless!’

  19. Wingman 2020 says:

    Labour support has been crumbling slowly but inexorably.
    In addition there is a political, awakening of a previously disenfranchised section of the populace.  They are stirring for the Referendum, where as previously they had a disinterest in Labour political hegemony over ordinary people.
    London is emerging as a superstate that is happy to see the Barnett hungry regions start to compete for the ever diminishing block grant crumbs from the establishment table.
    The weaker Wales, NI and Scotland are, the happier London is. They don’t want their ‘non english regions’ sparking unrest in the ‘English regions’ 
    We are not at the stage of the great potato famine in Ireland in 1845 that drove Independence (because the world is a different and much wealthier place now) but in modern day terms, that is whats coming.  A huge financial train wreck is guaranteed for the UK.  The minimum will be a  ‘Great Depression – UK’   

    London has sucked the wealth out of the rest of UK.  And continues to do so.  
    Labour no longer represent the socialist or working class people. Labour were subsumed over some forty years into the Establishment at Westminster.   Only Labour Leaders and worthies keep up the pretence that they can genuinely do something for the working man.
    Hence the desparate and shoddy literature that is being shoved through letter boxes.  It’s like throwing mud on the wall, some of it will stick.
    Labour is an organisation in demise.  We are witnessing it’s death throes.  The only thing that could save is the emergence of a brilliant leader who could provide additional longevity through open heart surgery.
    This would involve massive change in lifestyle (honest, transparency, integrity, and healthy values)
    In the meantime, if ordinary people don’t see something else to swim for, a huge number in Scotland will cling to this sinking ship.  Only the enlightened in Scotland are on or heading to the Life-raft.   
    It’s not enough.  

  20. Vincent McDee says:

    Sending every home in Scotland a copy of the independence White Paper would be a waste of money, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael has said

  21. HandandShrimp says:

    So then….
    Are Labour proposing to raise Corporation tax to 40%? I mean FFS! the UK rate will be around 24% when/if they next take office. If John Swinney is proposing 20 or 22% and that is very right wing then surely to goodness 24% must be pretty damned right wing too? 30% is that left wing? If so then surely 40% would be really left wing and much better for the ordinary tax payers? What are Labour going to raise the rate to Johann?
    Of course it is all so much hogwash. Labour will not frighten any horses and propose no such rate increase. Nor is it necessary. What Scotland needs is a tax rate that is simple, easy to collect and hard to circumnavigate. 20% that is actually collected is a bloody sight better than 30% that is for the most part avoided. 20% that is collected will reduce the tax burden on ordinary citizens not increase it.
    Johann may be an English teacher but she is no economist.

  22. Fraser Leith says:

    I’m a mouth breather too, don’t hate me, etc.

  23. Alba4Eva says:

    In 2007 Labour went into a massive huff.  This ‘Huff’ was at least partially blamed for the 2011 Scottish election results, after which Johann Lamont admitted so and stated that Labour had to move on and get over this Huff to grow into the party of power again.  (the video is available on YooToobe… its either the STV special or one of the last of the live 2011 coverage vids which are in about 27 parts of 10 mins each).
    It is now moving swiftly towards 2014 and Labour still don’t seem to have a coherent plan and have not developed any of their policies at all.  They are still very much… if not even more-so, even deeper in their huff!

  24. Ken500 says:

    If it creates 27,000 jobs, it pays for itself.

    Public spending higher in Scotland??

    The rest of the UK must be spending more on something else. £120Billion more. (pro rata £12Billion). UK gov spending 720Billion.

    Welsh FM wants to cut off his nose to spite his face. Devalue the £ even further.

  25. Jingly Jangly says:

    What they mean is that if you vote No then funding for the NHS will be cut, 9k per annum for University education, Illegal weapons of mass destruction still only 30 miles away from Glasgow. Barnett Formula scrapped and on top of the billions coming off public spending due to the austerity cuts which are coming into force in 2015 so  a further 4 billion per year less for the Scottish budget, That’s about the same as total spending in the NHS, so that means that substantial parts of the NHS will have to be privatised.
    Its good to be Broken Together!!!

  26. Greannach says:

    I think we need to be careful when thinking that the tide might be turning in favour of Yes. The No side are a pretty ruthless bunch and they have the entire resources of the British state at their disposal. If we start thinking No are on the slide and get complacent, they could just beat Yes to the finish line. It doesn’t matter that their arguments are crap and their continual denigration of people in Scotland is embarrassing – colonised people all over the world have been taught to understand they are second rate (but proud) and all too often believe it. A kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

  27. Tris says:

    I doubt that Johann has seen any of these things. They will be approved by London.
    I remember reading in Lance Price’s book about the Blair/Brown years, how he was sent to Edinburgh to make sure that the Great Helmsman did what Blair had instructed.
    He had to be careful not to be seen arriving at Edinburgh airport and in fact was “en capuchoner” on several occasions.
    They didn’t want the press to know that the strings were being pulled from London.

  28. BeamMeUpScotty says:

    BT are definitely getting desparate.A Welshman sent north to reinforce the message.Whatever next??? Dr.No from Northern Ireland?

  29. Graeme Morrice ?@GraemeMorrice17h
    SNP corporation tax plans show they have #wrongpriorities,cut for big business paid by West Lothian families  #indyref




    Roddy Macdonald ?@logicsrock17h
    @GraemeMorrice The Laffer Curve is still just a measure of audience reaction to their policies for Labour economic illiterates.

  30. Gray says:

    As Johann herself said “People have stopped listening to Labour” .. she just doesn’t have it between her ears to reason why.

  31. Murray McCallum says:

    The No to Scotland all together campaign send out so many mixed messages. It’s totally confusing.
    I thought there was going to be no big business in an independent Scotland? Just a few days ago they were saying we were a lost economic cause. Last year they were saying we were more than capable of flourishing. I wish they would make their minds up.

  32. Robin Ross says:

    “Working together. Stronger together” so goes the subheading to United with Labour stuck on to a saltire. An odd message for a number of reasons.
    1. If we’re all Better Together why the separate effort from Labour? Oh yes, the Tories are toxic and an embarrassment. Better Together for UwL actually means ‘worse together’.
    2. Why the Saltire? What happened to Ed Milliband’s ‘one nation’ stuff? Surely it should be the union jack? After all we’re supposed to be better together?
    3. Why Scottish Labour? As far as I know there’s no such reality behind the name, and if the Labour position is that they care as much for the poor of Manchester as they do for the poor of Motherwell why make a nationalist distinction?
    I wonder if MsLamont has moved from teaching English to teaching Media Studies – a poster in the finest tradition of the Triple B effect – bullshit baffles brains.

  33. [Humble apologies, Rev – I won’t just paste tweets in again, I just about died when I saw all the code it put in when I tried to edit it.]
    Labour were all over Twitter last night posting this kind of shyte.

  34. Macart says:

    @Vincent McDee
    Freaky isn’t it?
    They’ve spent the past two years asking for detail and now that they’re about to get it, its pointless to give it to anyone. 
    It appears they’re fearing some payback coming their way.

  35. Gillie says:

    Gordon Brown, May 2008, speech to Institute of Directors, “Britain’s tax regime must remain competitive. We have cut corporation tax twice and I want to go further. We will reduce the tax again when we are able.”

  36. JasonF says:

    Off topic:
    Good to hear Alex Salmond talking in FMQs about trying to encourage young people to stay in Scotland as a way of dealing with the potential population problems. While it’s good that people leave and experience life elsewhere, the migration of people from Scotland has been largely ignored and deserves to be discussed more widely. Even Ireland, with all its economic problems over the years has managed to substantially increase it’s population during the past half a century – unlike Scotland.

  37. Ken500 says:

    They keep on quoting the figure £560Billion (raised in taxes in the UK?) not the spending by the UK gov – £720Billion. Losing £120Billion the UK Treasury is spending in the rest of the UK. Speak about fiddling the figures.


  38. Gillie says:

    Alistair Darling, pre-budget speech 2007, “Mr Speaker, making Britain one of the best places in the world to do business, also demands a modern tax regime based on three clear principles: that our system is competitive, its simple and fair. I confirm the main rate of corporation tax will be cut by 2p to 28p next year. This is the lowest in the G7.”

  39. HandandShrimp says:

    Sadly as others have pointed out Labour and economics are not happy bedfellows. Brown sold gold when it was at a low, dropped the 10p tax rate when anybody with O level arithmetic and a pen could have worked out it was a tax hike for those under £17.5k and a tax gain for those over £17.5k and of course “I have abolished boom and bust”. Committed to wars that pushed energy prices to a crippling peak, made great use of PFIs that have endebted our children for decades to come and did nothing to stop tax avoidance and outrageous bonuses to bankers – knighting a few along the way.
    What a track record.  

  40. Neil McAdam says:

    So what are the YES campaign doing about it?

    It’s all very well for you to point these idiotic campaign leaflets out, but I’m fearful that on the morning after the referendum I’m going to be saying to myself, “My God, they fell for it. I DO live in a country full of half wits.”

    Is the YES campaign aware of these pamphlets?

    Are they publicly trashing them as you have done here?

  41. Vincent McDee says:

    ‘We need more wars’: Head of controversial private outsourcing firm blames lack of conflict for spectacular collapse in Army recruitment since it took charge

  42. fairiefromtheearth says:

    Its very strange they are allowed to lie all they want.but when the SNP used, Its your oil campaine telling the truth your getting robbed, according to unionists it was the most insiduius political campaine ever lol tell lies OK tell the truth BAD,are we living in 1984. 

  43. Ken500 says:

    Higher taxes are raised in Scotland, which pays for high public spending.

    Oil sector taxed at 61%. Multinationals HQ in the City of London tax evade.

  44. Gillie says:

    Wendy Alexander, “if a scheme to vary corporation tax were to be available in some of the devolved countries of the UK as a tool of the UK Government’s regional economic policy, it should be available as an option for a Scottish Government to use also.”

  45. Kenny Campbell says:

    Lots of people believe this pish, that is why we’re not independent…….

  46. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T, that great british institution has been recerected Monty Phython ( stand ready for some anti Scottish satire) Dippy Dave / Queens gonna be runnin oota Gongs

  47. Moujick says:

    The concerning thing about this leaflet and the overall tactic is that Labour got away with it in Dunfermline and won.

  48. macdoc says:

    In the car just there and listening to realxs on the radio.

    News comes on about Salmond and Labour leader clashing at FMQ’s with Salmond explaining growing the economy and creating jobs will fix the problem. Then Johann stating Alex is an idiot not addressing impartial respected IFS. Scotland faces much greater challenges etc.
    Then it plays a clip from the debate and we get 1 min of Johann mocking the FM about people in independent Scotland will become younger and fantasy economics while all her cronies are laughing behind her. Then it ends. No reply from Salmond on the clip, nothing,
    Its an absolute disgrace the radio stations are just as bad as the TV stations. 

  49. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Neil McAdam
    We here are all part of the YES campaign.  Take control of what you can do and we will do our part to the best of our abilities.

  50. Dcanmore says:

    O/T … YES Scotland has started a crowd funding campaign to help provide materials for the independence grassroots movement in communities throughout Scotland, £15,000 is the target.

  51. Wingman 2020 says:

    @Neil McAdam
    I am with you on this one.   This invidious and insidious campaign being run by the establishment (Westminster, Better Together and ‘Scottish’ Labour) is going to capture some people.  It’s what propaganda does.  

    The effect is a changing in values and attitudes, that unfortunately will not be reversed a month before the Referendum when ‘the big YES guns’ come out.  

    I think the information on the Billboards / Posters has to be an option worth considering.  

    Propaganda hardens peoples attitude over time with it’s persistent invective.   Some will be tough to crack come September next year.

  52. ronnie anderson says:

     Murray Mc Callum, is that true aboot the gold fish hivin 3 mths memory, where kin a git wan, ma memorys fked, its 3 steps tae ma kitchen, ah hiv forgot whit a went there fur lol ( only some times)

  53. Papadocx says:

    If we get a no vote then the better together mob had better understand: THAT ALL THE JOCKS WILL HANG TOGETHER, However we individually voted, IT WILL BE COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT. 

  54. Brian Powell says:

    Delusional Labour needs to have a look at The Telegraph, for example, to see what a hollow ‘victory’ a No vote would be for them.
    They are here in Scotland but they behave as if they watching Scotland from far away.
    The money that is going to be taken from Scotland is enormous and it will be their constituents who will suffer, and not just the SNP Government, which how they see it at the moment.

  55. Seasick Dave says:

    The secret is to get the b*stards to pay their Corporation Tax in the first place, then hospitals and schools wouldn’t have to make cuts.
    Maybe Labour could focus on that.

  56. X_Sticks says:

    BTW spagan pointed out this morning on NNS that you can comment on this bbc Wales Nick Servini blog about Carwyn’s visit: 

  57. Ken500 says:

    If you want to compare spending it’s on what’s being spent £720Billion not on what’s being raised £560Billion? Scotland raises more £60Billion UK total £560Billion? The rest of the UK spends £120Billion more. Pro rata £12Billion.

  58. Ken500 says:

    Scotland is surplus in fuel/energy. Exports 25% but pays a higher cost – it’s colder. A cost to the whole Scottish economy. It could account for higher public spending. The rest of the UK should pay 1% more, Scotland less to be equal. If Scotland was Independent it could sell or tax the fuel/energy.

  59. Kev says:

    News of another indy debate resulting in a Yes vote, this time at Strathclyde Uni, hosted by prof John Curtice. However, unlike preceding debates this one actually began with the majority of the audience already in favour of Yes, very good news indeed, and a sign that the fearmongering is being ignored…

  60. Kenny Campbell says:

    Public spending in Scotland will be higher in some areas due to the vast bulk of the country being rural….There are only economies of scale in the bigger cities.

  61. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I’m not calling Labour supporters half-wits. I suggesting the Labour R Better Together team is putting out stuff that only half wits c an swallow. It is pretty evident that intelligent and well informed Labour are walking away from them

  62. Jamie Arriere says:

    Less Money for the NHS
    Less Money for Schools
    Coming from the party who extensively used PFI, that’s rich indeed. Not only did John Swinney stop using PFI, but even set up a whole funding institution/mechanism which has saved over £500m since inception, and over £0.5m every working day!!
    Higher Taxes for You

    Coming from the party which abolished the 10p tax rate, and developed stealth taxation into a fine art, rich indeed.
    More bonuses for bankers
    From the party that governed while bonuses in the City of London exploded in the years before the crash in 2007/8, that’s rich indeed. Broken Together’s very own Alistair Darling didn’t do a great job of ‘coaxing’ them not to pay them.
    More profit for energy companies
    So remind me again, who was in power for thirteen years while the energy market cranked itself up into hyper profit mode? Who decided to impose the green levies through customers’ bills? Who along with the Tories underinvested in our infrastructure & building insulation over decades? Don’t think it was the SNP – rich indeed

    Unfair advantage over small businesses

    Most small businesses don’t pay corporation tax at all – but do benefit from no business rates under the SNP, which normally go up relentlessly (along with council tax) under Labour Holyrood govts. 
    Incoherent, hypocritical, non-sequitur garbage from the party seeing their chance of Westminster and getting very rich indeed, fading.

  63. Iain says:

    Re Lamont and teaching: JLT at 1.11 cites a friend who was one of her pupils and recalled her as being ‘utterly f***ing useless!’

    Her attainment of a degree now seems embarrassing to Glasgow Uni, and I know of teachers who groan when her former occupation is mentioned. Twenty years in teaching without a promotion, latterly invited to work with social workers in a unit trying to reduce truancy. Moved sideways: ties in with the above quote.

    Potentially, ridiculously, simply as leader of the opposition, the leader of the Government. In what other party, and in what other country?

  64. BillyBigbaws says:

    Remember before the 2011 election, when Scottish Labour put out a leaflet pledging to abolish “the failed Scottish Labour.”?

    That was hilarious.  Nearly made me vite for them, but then I remembered that they never fulfill election promises.
    I agree with those who say the Yes campaign is simply not doing enough through the mainstream media to defuse all these lies from the unionist side. 
    Think of it this way – if i am sitting in the pub with six other people, I can be attacked on independence from six completely different angles.  Let’s say – EU membership, NATO and Trident, defence generally, supposed tax rises, the mindbogglingly false “cancer drugs” scare, and maybe “foreigners.”  I can answer every single one of these attacks in a pretty effective way, because I’m just so great, BUT we can’t expect the same of every Yes campaigner or voter, and why would the people I’m talking to believe me anyway?  They will say to themselves: “Well, that guy gave me an answer, but why can’t the Yes campaign or the Scottish government do the same?  Maybe he’s just talking pish.  Why would I believe him rather than the BBC?”

    I don’t know how we are going to win this, frankly.  But we will, so cheer up. 🙂 

  65. Indy_Scot says:

    I believe the only way the Scottish Government can get the facts of Independence to all of the people of Scotland is to send the White Paper to every house in Scotland, as it will never be achieved through unionist media channels.
    It would also remove the problem of people saying they do not know enough about the facts. The Independence referendum is far too important to let the unionist media influence the vote.

  66. creigs1707repeal says:

    The politically informed, activists etc will see this leaflet for the utter garbage that it is and the blatant lies it presents. But such people are in the vast minority in this country. The vast politically unaware majority will probably swallow this rubbish especially when it is repeated ad nauseum on the complicit MSM/BBC.

  67. BillyBigbaws says:

    I kind of agree Indy_Scot, but who is actually going to read a 500 page government White Paper?  A lot of people already have their minds made up, they’ve had a lifetime of propaganda telling them that independence is IMPOSSIBLE, and they will simply chuck it in the bin.   

    Still, it needs to be done.  They should send out a summary at least.

  68. Iain says:

    Correction: every teacher I know groans when Lamont’s former occupation is mentioned.

  69. X_Sticks says:


    “I don’t know how we are going to win this, frankly.  But we will, so cheer up. 🙂  ”

    “A lot of people already have their minds made up, they’ve had a lifetime of propaganda telling them that independence is IMPOSSIBLE, and they will simply chuck it in the bin.”

    We will indeed win it BillyBigbaws.

    Don’t underestimate the people of Scotland. They weren’t ALL born here 😉

  70. Ghengis D'Midgies says:

    A certain cringer reported today on BBC Scotland that new figures on Scottish public spending revealed that it was £1200pp higher than in the rest of the UK. He then mentioned that a spokesperson from the SNP said that that Scotland contributes £1200 more per person.
    Now, I expect that this little bit of poison in the form of ‘new figures’ is designed to damage the white paper, but I wonder where the numbers come from and are they comparable with the numbers in the white paper which will presumably be from GERS, or maybe no.

  71. proudscot says:

    Papadocx, you mean of course those of us that haven’t been bayonetted by Ian Quisling Davidson’s Mopping-Up Battalion?

  72. john king says:

    I was sitting in committee room 1 watching FMq’s on video link as there were no tickets to get into the gallery and it was illuminating as people were less reticent to express their disapproval of the risible nonsense spouted by JL had we been in the public area,
    and you could hear several (including mine) chuckles of derision and tut tuts to the rubbish coming from her and several nods and murmurs of agreement when AS pointed out that the forecasts by the IFS  were actually based on Scotland staying withing the union,
    as we would have different policies (as acknowledged by the IFS) which would slew their findings in a more favorable direction but also pointing out the straw man point that a deficit is not a peculiarity of an iScotland but a  standard position across the globe. 

  73. Andy-B says:

    Well done Rev, in dissecting an error strewn leaflet, from an error strewn party.
    As you say, cutting corporation tax is about luring business to Scotland with the aim of creating jobs, and not just larger profits for big business.

  74. john king says:

    Just had a thought, 
    JLT  and anyone close enough to make a trip to Holyrood on a thursday, what about the idea of meeting up at FMqs on a thursday to swap ideas and generally shoot the breeze? the parliament cafe is surprisingly good value 

  75. ronnie anderson says:

    Dail Politics, Mayor of Liverpool, consulting the Public how to trim their budget, they have to make Cuts of  £ 150 mil in 3 yrs ,would the people of Liverpool think their better together  just now I dont think so & it will be worce after Independance   Scotland  OK  /  U K  Ffuked . Sorry the the people of Nth England but like us Westminster doesent work for the people

  76. Alex Taylor says:

    I agree: 500 is pages too much, but there should be a summary report sent to every home in Scotland with an option inside to ask for the full report should they wish to read it.

  77. creigs1707repeal says:

    Oh my–there’ll be uproar down Ibrox way. White’s coming to Glasgow!

  78. Wingman 2020 says:

    I will meet up one Thursday at Holyrood with group of likeminded individuals.
    Anyone interested in an all day (televised) white paper event?
    Or another event ‘In conversation with Nicola Sturgeon?’

  79. Wingman 2020 says:

    @John King
    Imagine a few dozen people in Holyrood with Wings t-Shirts on.  That appeals to my sense of humour, and penchant for stirring up the Unionists when ever possible.  🙂 

  80. Edward says:

    As the saying goes ‘Good teachers, teach. Bad teachers become Labour politicians’ 🙂

  81. Big Jock says:

    Lament is the worst speaker in parliament. English teacher! Well if they are teaching ned as a new language. Then I suppose it is possible, in some parts of deepest darkest Lanarkshire!

  82. ronnie anderson says:

    big jock, am in lanarkshire, ah feel agreaved t your comment, Johann teacing Neds, no here or anywhere else,am on the side of the neds,save oor sanity lol

  83. Jamie Arriere says:

    My God, Lamont was an English teacher! It’s funny that in all the dreary speeches and wasp-chewing interviews she has given over the years, I have never ever heard her quote anything substantial, interesting, funny or incisive from any literary source or great work – my parents were both English teachers and were forever breaking into poetic phrases and extracts, songs, quotations and proverbs to encapsulate a concept or an aspect of character.
    I pity the poor kids of Lanarkshire or wherever it was, who were introduced to literature and language through her

  84. Linda's Back says:

    Good quote / research on Gordon Brown and Corporation Tax.
    Added to that was his praise for the lack of regulation for the city of London.
    From speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP, to Mansion House  (20th June 2007 from HM Treasury Web Site)
    “So I congratulate you Lord Mayor and the City of London on these remarkable achievements, an era that history will record as the beginning of a new golden age for the City of London.
    And I believe it will be said of this age, the first decades of the 21st century, that out of the greatest restructuring of the global economy, perhaps even greater than the industrial revolution, a new world order was created.”
    Yet the run on Northern Rock took place on 14 September 2007 just three months later.  How could that have possibly happened?

  85. joe kane says:

    Does this leaflet mean that the only publicly owned and accountable institutions that will be safe in Labour hands are schools and the NHS? I’m sure we all know, though, that Labour turned schools and the NHS into cash cows for their mates in the City.

    The leaflet makes no mention of less money for the welfare state, Royal Mail, public water, student tuition fees and maintenance grants etc etc.

    Scaring people about paying more personal tax is a classic right-wing tactic.

    Labour’s PFI bill for NHS Scotland which we’ll be paying off for decades –

    Labour’s PFI bill for schools which we’ll be paying off for decades – 

  86. JLT says:

    Hi John King / Wingman 2020
    Could do mate. If you’ve seen my posts, then you’ll know that I’m off this whole week, and have finally completed decorating half the house in time for Christmas. It’s been a sore one. Two bathrooms, half the hallway, a Utility room, and skirting’s in the kitchen, hallways and both bathrooms. Bloody hellish!!! (though I am seriously in the wife’s good books! LOL).

    John, give me a shout on Facebook. Look up James Turbert (there are 3 James Turbert’s as far as I can see on Facebook. I’m the one from Livingston). Do that, and I’ll post you my moby number. Cheers

  87. Kev says:

    Dearie me, Lamont’s display at FMQ’s today has got to be one of the most depressing yet. Her “English” seems to be getting even worse than her “arguments”. Definite elocution lessons required;

  88. john king says:

    Wingman 2020 says
    “Imagine a few dozen people in Holyrood with Wings t-Shirts on.  That appeals to my sense of humour, and penchant for stirring up the Unionists when ever possible.  🙂 
      Got the tee shirt can do 
    you have to book by phone on the Thursday before for the next one because they’re  booked up for next Thursday so first one we could do that (assuming we could all book a place ) would be thurs dec 05  

  89. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    Roddy Macdonald says:
    21 November, 2013 at 1:27 pm
    Graeme Morrice ?@GraemeMorrice17h
    SNP corporation tax plans show they have #wrongpriorities,cut for big business paid by West Lothian families 
    For such an exciting SLAB Better-Whatever poster initiative the  webpage looks an awfully quiet place. Zero comments at the foot of the page, and you can almost hear the tumbleweeds rolling past. Made a couple of YES-minded comments a few minutes ago, but don’t expect them to ever appear.

  90. Tony says:

    Hello folks, sorry to go off topic! I’m a first time poster! But regular avid reader since the very beginning of the site. Looking for some help. I’m looking for some evidence that BBC budget is spent disproportionately in the UK to the detriment of Scotland. I was sure there was a fantastic article and I’ve tried the search function on the site (has worked for me wonderfully before) but not produced what I was looking for (perhaps I didn’t use the key words).
    Can anyone help? I had a discussion at work with an intending ‘no’ voter and am looking to ‘educate’ him (if I can).
    Many thanks 

  91. Davy says:

    I think todays FM’s question time really showed the difference between a positive vision for Scotland and a completely negative vision for Scotland. Lamont could not do enough to use the IFS report to show Scotland in as bad a light as she could, this woman forgets which country she comes from or who the people she represents are.
    Myself and my wife were just shaking our heads at her langage and tone as she did everything she could think about to down her own countrys prospects, their was nothing she did or indicated that was in Scotlands favor.
    Compare Lamonts mucking of Scotland to Alex Salmond’s positive outlook of growing Scotlands economy and advancing the job prospects of Scotlands people, you would have to be a complete nutter to follow Lamonts vision for Scotland.
    We just have to keep going forward with a positive message and take the doomsayers of the unionists apart at every opportunity.

  92. kininvie says:

    Preliminary heads-up for West Lothian folk: ‘Evening with Nicola’ Deans Community High School, Livingston. 4th December,  7pm
    “Ms Sturgeon will be joined on the Deans High School platform on Wednesday 4th December by local MSPs, and fellow Scottish Government ministers, Angela Constance and Fiona Hyslop.
    The event is to coincide with the Scottish Government White Paper on independence being launched on the 26th November, a document which sets out the Government’s vision for Scotland after a Yes vote.
    The evening which is designed to give undecided voters the information they are looking for to help make up their minds for the 18th September referendum.”
    If you know some undecideds, or soft No voters, see if you can them to come along.
    We also need some help with publicising this over the next 2 Saturdays. With the Rev’s indulgence, I’ll put details up tomorrow.

  93. Juteman says:

    Insult after insult.
    Could the British State be trying to provoke a violent reaction?
    Surely they have experts in this field, and must know how angry they are making folk.

  94. cjmasta says:

    Only the dimmest and the brain washed would take these champagne socialists seriously these days, they come out with this meaningless crap all the time. I suppose you just have to hope that those with a fully functioning brain will tick the right box next year seeing the opportunity for what it is.
    A big two fingers up to the ruling Elite of London from Scotland will put the biggest smile on my face.
    Just heard thanks to the BBC an economic “think tank” has said the borders rail link is a waste of money. I`m sure the project will be very good for the area when it`s up and running and I bet local businesses wont be complaining.
    They know the cost but can`t understand the value.
    JoLa`s performance today predictably dragged the debate into the gutter along with all the usual suspects. AS as per wiped the floor with them.
    It`s a sad day for democracy when elected leaders act to create headlines rather than come up with anything of substance.

  95. call me dave says:

    Calgacus MacAndrews
    Not a Salmon(d) or a Sturgeon then, . . . maybe a carp suits them?
    Other fish not excluded.

  96. JLT says:

    I’m up for the ‘Evening with Nicola Sturgeon’. Can help with the publicising. Just drop me an email, mate. Cheers.

  97. call me dave says:

    Tony:  Here’s a start  I’ll look for more stuff.
     population share of the licence fee income alone would be over £320 million, even before the Scottish share of other BBC income sources is considered – far more than is spent in Scotland.
    “It is vital that the substantial investment from Scotland is fairly benefitting Scotland, as we already know under current plans that spend on BBC Scotland will reduce to just £86 million in 2016/17.
    “This must be considered alongside the statement in the Trust’s report that a majority of Scots do not believe that the BBC is good at representing their life in news and current affairs content.

  98. call me dave says:

    Tony:  WoS has this on the BBC.

  99. lumilumi says:

    I spent a few days away from the reach of the modern world, in wilderness bothies in North Karelia – it’s just about the worst time of year to go. Not even 6.5 hours between sunrise and sunset, dark cloudy skies, horizontal sleet, muddy tracks. (Later in the winter the mud will be frozen, snow on the ground so it’ll be lighter). A small wood-burning stove and some candles, nothing to do but to play cards with a couple of friends.
    I come back and try to catch up online with what’s been happening in Scotland meanwhile. And I want to crawl back to the wilderness bothy. The Scottish MSM is really a disgrace. It’s getting to the point that BBC Scotland and other MSM are actually thwarting democracy.
    Anyway, one thing that strikes me with all these “Daily Hail” type wailings of how Scots get more tax money per head…
    It’s not actually like each and every Scot got this money to spend as they wish, though you’d think so from the “Daily Wailings”.
    Let’s take something almost everybody agrees on. Primary education as close to home as possible should be free. Everybody agrees with that, no? (Oh, a couple of no’s from rich SE England yummy mummies with kids in private education, OK.)
    Imagine a rural area where three villages between them have enough kids for a primary shool. So it’s reasonable that one village has the school and the kids from the two other villages go to the “school village”.
    In many parts of southern England these three villages would be a mile, maybe two apart. Kids can walk or cycle to school. In Scotland these rural villages might be ten, fifteen miles apart. Nobody in their right mind would expect primary school kids to walk/cycle (or even ski!) such a distance, so there’s a school bus.
    So there’s all that road that has to be maintained between the villages. Not only for the schoolbus but for the parents to go to work, for deliveries to the local shop etc. The roads lined with electricity poles and wires. Telephone wires, even “broadband”…
    It’s called infrastructure.
    Infrastructure is supposed to be one of the main things a state does for its citizens and for its own good as to competitiveness etc.
    The lesson?
    Government spend is always going to be “more per head” in less densely populated areas. Of course, the rich in SE England don’t want to pay for national infrastructure, like electricity or broadband or roads in rural Scotland (as long as their 4×4 gets to the shooting lodge). Better together, eh?
    I had real trouble finding a population density map of the UK but here’s one:
    It was very easy to find a population density map of Finland, straight from Wikipedia:
    (The map is slightly misleading. The triangle between Tampere, Kuopio and Imatra is full of big lakes so not very populated.)
    BTW, the whole of Great Britain is about 2/3 of Finland (cut it off somewhere between Oulu and Tornio) and Scotland would be something like 1/3 of what’s left, roughly from Kokkola to Kuopio to Joensuu, the rest south would be England, Wales and Northern Ireland. (Anything north of Tornio is Lappland, anyway. Part of Finland but still distinctive.)
    Funny how such a sparsely populated independent country like Finland can survive – especially since our elusive Baltic Sea oil still hasn’t materialised! ;-D

  100. this is the kind of rubbish which feeds the folk I saw on the youtube video you posted of our dear friends who support The Rangers 2013.

  101. john king says:

    Juteman says
    “Insult after insult.

    Could the British State be trying to provoke a violent reaction?Surely they have experts in this field, and must know how angry they are making folk.”

    Do you think they’re trying to engineer a reason to send in the tanks?
    serious question 


  102. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    call me dave says:
    21 November, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    Calgacus MacAndrews
    Not a Salmon(d) or a Sturgeon then, . . . maybe a carp suits them?
    Other fish not excluded.
    Guess who is more Desperate Fishwife than Great Debater?

  103. Ronnie says:

    I dunno if it was JL’s scriptwriter, proof-reader, diction or dentures, but I’ll swear at one point she says that ‘Alex Salmond has been told off in a muff…?

  104. Robin Ross says:

    With Wingman etc.  I’m up for a get together at Holyrood.  How can I get in touch without using Faceboak?

  105. Juteman says:

    I seriously fear what the British State is capable of. In the modern age, tanks are impossible, but what is their modern equivalent?

  106. Scarlett says:

    I have a meeting in parliament on Thursday afternoon, could get there earlier if other wings folk will be around?

  107. john king says:

    Scarlett says 
    “I have a meeting in parliament on Thursday afternoon”
     trouble is Scarlett the first chance of getting into the gallery is 05/12 but hey, that doesn’t stop us all getting together in the cafe and watching FMq’s in the committee room (no1) I think people express themselves more in that room whereas they’re too feart to murmer or tut in the gallery 

  108. john king says:

    Juteman says
    “I seriously fear what the British State is capable of. In the modern age, tanks are impossible, but what is their modern equivalent?”
    I don’t think we should imagine these people are any more sophisticated than their forebears who sent the the tanks into Glasgow  
    tanks it is 

  109. john king says:

    Robin Ross says

    “With Wingman etc.  I’m up for a get together at Holyrood.  How can I get in touch without using Faceboak?”
    See what you mean Robin totally with you, maybe if you contact the rev he could tell you my email address , rev?

  110. kininvie says:

    It’s a countrywide thing. We in YesWestLothian have asked for a few thousand copies, I believe. The 500 page thing is for us geeks and for John Curtice lookalikes. But we have a good six months to take what we need from it, distil it, and spread the message, before the final push.
    The point of the grassroots campaign is that we don’t need or want every voter to wade through 500 pages. We need to take out the messages that matter, and use them.

  111. lumilumi says:

    @Heather and Kininvie
    I’m so glad to hear there’s going to be a “pocket book” summary of the 500-page white paper! So encouraging for democracy in Scotland. Get the word out there, tell the people the truth, because the MSM won’t.
    I, for one, will download the whole WP on Tuesday and read it through and through as soon as possible. I won’t be able to read it through before the NO Scotland camp howl their objections that is all fantasy and they need more details and it doesn’t answer any and every question, such as the price of stamps, and it’s it’s all a (pipe) dream anyway, and… and…
    Aye, have a dream.
    Besides the booklet you’re talking about, which will be distributed to those already at least midly interested, shouldn’t every household in Scotland get an executive summary of the white paper? Or an extended executive summary with explanations, say, 16 pages (with pictures/graphs)?
    Finland made some major changes to our constitutional laws, actually consolidated them all into a proper, single constitution, at the turn of the millennium. The new constitution, a booklet, was sent to every home in Finland. You can’t say you weren’t informed!
    The new constitution is even written in non-legalese, in language that every Finn ought to understand. The English translation (provided by the Ministry of Justice, but unofficial, as the English translation cannot be used in a Finnish law court, only the Finnish or Swedish versions can), yes, the English translation is terrible, very legalese. The Finnish version is a lot more simple and elegant. Anyway, here’s the pompous English translation if anybody is interested.

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