Priority boarding
It’s been quite the week so far. For the vile and sickening crime of [check notes] finding out what SNP voters were thinking about the important political issues of the moment, we’ve had (especially on Facebook) a two-day barrage of stuff like this, and worse:
So, y’know, on with what we always do: reporting the facts.
Yikes. We should probably have given you a bit of warning for that one. Remember, this is a poll of SNP VOTERS ONLY, but almost a quarter are willing to give up on independence “for the foreseeable future” if it saves England and Wales from the Brexit they voted for three and a half years ago and still want to happen. To be honest, we weren’t expecting that.
Interestingly, the figure is a third higher than the percentage of SNP voters who say they’d vote Leave in a future referendum:
(Presumably representing the “fair play” faction in the previous link.) And perhaps unsurprisingly, it’s the young who are most willing to wait a long time for independence:
27% of the youngest demographic prioritised avoiding Brexit over getting Scotland out of the UK, compared to just 18% of older people and 24.5% of the middle group.
And equally predictably, those who voted No in 2014 but have now switched to the SNP were heavily in favour of stopping Brexit instead.
(On that subject, incidentally, we also asked SNP voters if they’d always been SNP voters or had moved to the party since 2014. A remarkable 50% voted for other parties prior to the indyref, by far the largest group being former Labour supporters.)
So there we have it. While the number of SNP voters prepared to sacrifice the party’s primary goal to stop Brexit was rather higher than we expected, the SNP’s current policy of focusing all its energies on stopping Brexit – even at the risk of invalidating its 2016 election mandate – still puts it at odds with 77% of its own supporters.
It’d be quite interesting to know how many of the people currently furiously screaming “TRAITOR!” and “YOON PLANT!” at us are in the 23%.
I suspect there will be a change post-conference. Tidily it ties in with the ‘amok time’ that is mid october for Boris to go full mental junket.
Lets wait and see whats on the agenda and the feeling there among SNP acolytes.
‘Intension’ or intention?
So will James Kelly rip the pish out of this one too?
I used to be an occasional reader of ScotgoesPop, despite the resident troll and his constant “Nat Sis” and homophobic crap spoiling any chance of reasonable debate in the comments.
I guess I won’t know the answer as I’ve vowed never to visit there again. the last few days carping have been enough.
So nearly a quarter would like the old Status Quo back? Nae Brexit and the “safe” UK. Thought it was the Brexiteers who believed in Unicorns.
The whole debacle has been an illustration of how screwed Westminster politics is. Avoid Brexit and we’d stumble on to some other crisis. Either way the longer we stay the more we will be diminished.
@Rev: re your para 1, I hope you’re not taking it personally!
My head is in my hands most days. As for the conference agenda…
Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed.
Clearly your opinion poll is nonsense. Everybody knows SNP voters are drones operating with a hive mind.
Questions questions and more questions,
The only one I’m interested in is > “Should Scotland become an independent nation?”.
Wha’s like us eh. Probably no other nation in the world.
@Normski
I have science PhD and vote SNP/Green. Come over here and say that pal.
Old loyalties and values are often the hardest to kill. Howevef, Boris is doing a grand job on that front.
I’d be a “Refuse to answer” on Q12, as it doesn’t have my option. Which is the UK remains in the EU, and iScotland does as well.
In polling terms that might mean my opinion would be discarded as this poll stands.
Male, Female…No Gender neutral category?
( I couldnt resist)
A very interesting result and shows that reality is a lot more complex than anyone would like it to be. Is there any indication that the results (from any poll) are purely from Brexit-fatigue and once the deed is done at the end of the month opinions will start to coalesce in one direction or another?
Following up on my own question. This appears to show that uncertainty is killing everybody and people want to go with the closest result that gets them out of this hell.
Re the crap you’re getting over critism of the SNP, I see the SNP failures, anyone who sits down and rationally looks will see mistakes.
If you point out Tory faults and the rest, the SNP shouldn’t get a pass,otherwise you’d be the mirror image of the MSM
Fuck their criticism, you’re right .They just haven’t noticed ……..Yet
Not sure why the animus on Facebook but certainly the person that keeps posting on SGP has a serious bee in the bonnet and that bee may predate any polls or talk of a Wings party…by some considerable time.
The poll results are interesting and I’m not finding them too surprising. People are complex creatures and some people can hold three contradictory notions at the same time without batting an eyelid.
I also think most SNP voters cut the party slack because they opposed Brexit, Scotland voted emphatically against Brexit and Brexit would be bad for the Scottish (and UK) economy. If they didn’t try and oppose Brexit the opposition would cry opportunists.
The opposition think the SNP are playing the long game and are going to wave their Remain credentials in the faces of the mess that is the Tory/Labour position. The polls suggest Labour are going to fail in the coming GE. An ERG dominated Tory Party led by Boris the Questionable could form a majority. Brexit will then happen regardless of extensions and Scotland will either have to ‘people up’ (getting the hang of this gender thing…possibly) or forever tug the forelock to the most reactionary right wing government this side of WW2.
Could the strategy go tits up? Yes it could. Then again so could just about anything in UK politics at the moment.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Out in the real world (where people don’t spend their lives gawping and shouting at their phones over anything they either don’t understated or don’t agree with) I don’t think anyone really cares what you’re saying …
O/T
WTAF????
link to archive.is
Jeez. Personally think that this is the most important work Stuart has undertaken. If independence could be achieved through cosy assumptions, echo chamber opinions and a sense of self righteousness we’d be there by now.
@Proud Cybernat 1.54: MOD police working outside MOD property as reported in The Herald!! This is appalling. Our Scottish Government MUST be told that this is not on.
Give an inch and Westminster gov’ will take a mile.
@Proud Cybernat / @Sarah
Two things about that article.
1) dated 8th January 2017
2) Exclusive by Rob Edwards
As O’Neill might say, I rest my case.
It’s always better to have the GENUINE answer to the difficult questions rather than have wishful thinking lead us astray.
Hopefully it’s just Shug’s passion that’s leading HIM astray at the moment. I hope that he can reade and take in what you’ve written and think that we DO need to understand how supporters on Indy think and WHY they think that way. Both Labour and the Tories have failed to engage with their own support and paid heavily for it. Indy supporters have always been more open minded and really ARE a broad church. Folk of many political persuasions believe that Indy will help Scotland and all who live here.
I note, with appreciation and admiration I must say, that you have not simply tore into Shug, you have answered his concerns. In doing so I believe you attract more support to a cause. ie Catch more flies with honey…
Age of enlightenment?
More like age of bewilderment.
I’m puggled !
Sarah says:
9 October, 2019 at 2:03 pm
@Proud Cybernat 1.54: MOD police working outside MOD property as reported in The Herald!! This is appalling. Our Scottish Government MUST be told that this is not on.
Give an inch and Westminster gov’ will take a mile…
On the up side Sarah, Scottish cops might be serving an arrest warrant in Downing St next week…
Someone needs to get the site owner some torches as I am sure it must be very dark on the dark side. LOL it’s a joke before some of the site owners minders jump on me – Bob I’m thinking of you.
Pretty poor stuff from some people that make these type of comments about the site owner. The site owner is expressing a point of view and he is entitled to do so on his own site and based on his years of supporting independence. I just don’t think he has put up any evidence for such views. So they are an opinion in my opinion. It’s all about opinions except when facts and evidence are available.
I don’t do hero worship and that applies to any SNP leader as much as it applies to any blogger. In my opinion too many people go down this route and then you get the type of comment that the site owner gets from people who are disappointed by their hero. That’s an opinion not a fact.
To help explain the 23% figure, I have a mate who is English. He has spent most of his life in Scotland, and is an ardent Unionist and Labour voter – he thought Gordon Brown did a good job as PM, FFS!
He has now given up on Labour in Scotland as he sees them as a wasted vote, and he now votes SNP as they are the only credible party in Scotland. However, when it comes to Scottish Independence, he is totally against it – “Better Together” etc.
How many other people within the 23% of SNP voters are like him.
I can’t say I’m particularly surprised by the figures.
We know that backing YES, backing Remain, and voting SNP are three different sets of people. In Venn diagram terms, with three circles, the overlap in the middle is where most folks in this poll sit, but a minority are spread around the other segments.
The media is wall to wall Brexit. Indy gets as little mention as they can achieve. Is it any surprise a lot of folks immediate priority is to get Brexit stopped, at any cost.
One thing which will focus people’s minds is Brexit actually happening! Then the choice of Q12 evaporates forever! When the choice is Indy versus UK isolationist lunacy, that’s quite different.
MOD police attempting to “police” civilian areas outwith MOD official areas of juridstiction should be met with the full force of Scots law. This is not on. Come on SNP grow a pair and draw a line in the sand.
“even at the risk of invalidating its 2016 election mandate”
The mandate is NOT contingent on Brexit.
The right of self-determination CANNOT be invalidated.
“I’d be a “Refuse to answer” on Q12, as it doesn’t have my option. Which is the UK remains in the EU, and iScotland does as well.”
I’m not sure you’ve grasped the concept of a forced-choice poll.
“The mandate is NOT contingent on Brexit.
The right of self-determination CANNOT be invalidated.”
Sigh.
Tell that to Madrid Peter
“Jeez. Personally think that this is the most important work Stuart has undertaken. If independence could be achieved through cosy assumptions, echo chamber opinions and a sense of self righteousness we’d be there by now.”
This.
I think it’s likely that people do not change the way they think about or vote for brexit just because they move house.
England voted with nearly 55% in favour of brexit.
I reckon English people living in Scotland will have voted 55% in favour of brexit.
There are a fair number of people who are SNP members who apparently do not want Scottish independence and I just wonder if they are English people living in Scotland who do not want Scottish independence but want to be members so they can keep abreast of what SNP policies and its popularity is.
@Elmac
That’s old news – nearly 3 years old. And quite dubious at that.
“I’m not sure you’ve grasped the concept of a forced-choice poll.”
I’m not sure you’ve grasped the concept of opinion polls not being compulsory.
But while you’re on the subject, any data on how many people DID refuse to take part in the survey, or failed to answer questions, or submitted invalid polls, or spoiled their surveys in any way? Was it a telephone poll, or online?
“But while you’re on the subject, any data on how many people DID refuse to take part in the survey, or failed to answer questions, or submitted invalid polls, or spoiled their surveys in any way? Was it a telephone poll, or online?”
Online. The only way to skip a question is to quit the whole poll. If you don’t want to answer questions, don’t sign up with an opinion pollster. The question was “IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE ONE OF THESE”. If someone offers you tea or coffee and you demand fresh-squeezed mango juice, don’t expect to be asked back to their house.
How does the BBC gauge public or political opinion, well last night on the BBC 9 programme they had five *journalists* talking to each other
Today on Politics Scotland they had six *journalists* talking to each other with one three minutes of words from four politicians of the Holyrood parties and each one spoke in turn until the SNP rep’s turn came round then all the rest shouted loudly and pointed fingers over the top of what was said and even the *Journalist* conducting the interview did the same
Attacked by the media both TV and written press, attacked by all the other parties and attacked by online internet ragers or anybody else that thinks an extra lamp post in their street is an impositon on their human rights or that the SNP should just dae sumthin aboot sumthin while most of the time disengenuously endowing the SNP with powers they don’t have then insisting they use those non existent powers to do somthing to impress the folk who fell for the line that they do have the power
Smith commission: All of these parties (except the Greens) voted against Scotland having any powers at all now they shout and ball about use the powers they don’t want them to have because the SNP are everybody’s enemy and if we had those powers we’d do good stuff all over the place, and that’s the SNPs fault as well
In Liverpool less than one week ago fifty guns were taken off the streets by police, fifty, had that happened in Scotland it would have been headline news for weeks and calls for the FM to be kicked out of office
Just one small example of how quickly everybody forgets
Not so long ago everybody was trumpeting the SNP building more houses building more hospitals building more motorways, rail lines, clinics, bridges wow! what a difference to how things used to be and now what do we hear
They’re bad we don’t trust them they’re betraying us I’ve even heard the Tartan Tories phrase being brought back into use, they’ve only been in the job a few years compared to our previous golden era of Labour when Scotland was the colour black
I wish I enjoyed drink I’d be gobbling it down now
Turkey have been waiting for the green light to invade Kurdish controlled areas of Syria. Trump has now given them that green light and an invasion is underway. The Kurds are an indigenous people who have had the misfortune to be spread over various parts of eastern Turkey, northern Syria, northwestern Iran and part of Armenia. They have suffered discrimination, subjugation and worse from these various regimes in their quest for a homeland.
The Kurds performed heroics as allies of the USA and others in the fight against ISIS, an abomination on the face of this earth. Trump has no continued use for their assistance and has sold them down the river. There will now be much bloodshed and horror as a result which will be fully on the hands of Trump. Not that he cares as there is money and votes involved.
This is the man that Boris Johnson has pinned his hopes on as the saviour of the UK’s trade prospects post Brexit. Trump puts his own agenda first and cares nothing for trading or military partners. Mind you neither does Johnson. We have a lot in common with the Kurds to the extent that we are downtrodden and belittled by our “masters”. I sincerely hope that the SNP government will condemn the Turkish incursion and Erdogan in particular and Trump for what he is knowingly party to.
Dads army @ 3.48
I stand corrected. Blood pressure now returning to normal. Can’t recall where I saw this earlier but it caused a rush of blood.
dadsarmy says:
9 October, 2019 at 3:52 pm
“I’m not sure you’ve grasped the concept of a forced-choice poll.”
I’m not sure you’ve grasped the concept of opinion polls not being compulsory.
But while you’re on the subject, any data on how many people DID refuse to take part in the survey, or failed to answer questions, or submitted invalid polls, or spoiled their surveys in any way? Was it a telephone poll, or online?’
So, when its an opinion poll with questions/results to your liking you don’t insist on the above data (forgive me if you have, but I’ve never seen this response posted before). But when its an opinion poll asking ‘awkward’ questions that the leadership of the SNP might have to shed some light on, instead of telling everyone to be patient and trust them, then the whole ethos/methodology of polling comes into question.
Wow.
No wonder the Labour Party treated Scotland like voting fodder for all those decades – what an easy time of it we made for them. No hard questions allowed, anyone doing so to be shot down in flames, full-on hostile environment for those with impure thoughts.
The price of democracy is eternal vigilance – not blind loyalty. For those who have joined the SNP – please do not do so out of gratitude, or loyalty – do it to keep them honest.
22 days till No Deal Brexit. A PM still in power in spite of 11-0 unlawful verdict on Proroguing Parliament – an no guarantee he will not do so again.
Scottish Parliament bound to a fools gold standard S30 order prior to getting the Scots to the Ballot Box, oh yes, and they can’t do anything until the extent of Brexit will be known.
And yet everyone and their auntie can see – even the supporters – that Brexit will be shit, and a No Deal Brexit will lead to chaos, food and fuel shortages and a state of emergency being imposed. Good luck with any type of election thereafter – or court action.
Still perhaps Boris will send a letter, or all the Unionist Parties down in London (the ones who according to the Polls) have not got a chance in Hell of winning a GE, perhaps there will be a party of unity and GE soon. Ra, ra, ra.
“Online”
Questions stands. Is there a statistic for how many people abandoned the poll, if any, and is there any overall data for such “forced choice polls”, as to whether people would have answered “none of the above” if available? Bearing in mind that the panels probably don’t get paid if they fail to complete?
I’d abandon the poll, I daresay many would shrug their shoulders and take the money.
@Rev
This is where either “gateway” questions come in, or conditional questions. So for instance if Q12 had the option “neither”, and say 50% clicked that one, then 12a would be asked for those who voted “neither” and ask “but if you were forced to choose, which would you choose?” witj just the two options.
Then the poll question is sound. Otherwise it’s indeed a forced choice, and doesn’t represent the whole pool many of whom perhaps wouldn’t pick either one. So you get a duff result.
Dr Jim @ 15:55,
I do agree. It’s never-ending. But it’s exactly this longstanding feeling of “being the ball not the bat” which is beginning to grate, and the source of all our current disenchantment. And though Stu puts one slant on the results so far, they could just as easily bolster those like Pete Wishart who crave certainty and see little.
Frankly, all I see is the confusion which is a reflection of the magnitude of the UK’s existential crisis. At some point, and I hope soon, someone needs to take a lead on this. Take the initiative and offer a way out. (And I don’t mean Jo Swansong’s wishful thinking.)
But we also have to recognise realities, not least those diversions under the control of London that could be used to stymie any Scottish initiative, as happened in 2017 with the benighted UKGE of that year. ‘Sakes, we haven’t even managed to dispose of the zombie “Peoples’ Vote” yet, and likely won’t do until the 19th of this month. Another UKGE is very definitely on the cards before long.
We can’t make any definite move of our own until those potential diversions are put out of their misery and got out of our way, and the best we can do as things stand is to use the inevitable GE as a means of exposing the inherent weaknesses of the BritNat opposition in Scotland and give us some kind of fulcrum for levering IR2.
Before long though there has to be a full-on S.30 request, come what may, and a legal+constitutional battle to follow through on any refusal. With a strong hint of a “go-it-alone” referendum lurking in the background to focus minds. We can’t go on like this, twisting in a gale stirred-up by others, for ever.
Just got a leaflet through the door from my local Tory MP Paul Masterton. He says he is working hard for East Renfrewshire. Without any sense of embarrassment he says “At a time when families want more stability and security in their lives……”
Brexit is obviously not happening in the real world of Mr Masterton. NOT A WORD ABOUT BREXIT. It doesn’t exist. Wonder why that is – is it because East Ren was something like 75% remain in 2016.
Is it because his local colleague in the Scot parliament Jackson Carcrash MSP has come out and said a no deal Brexit is ok by the Scottish Tories. Funny how he doesn’t mention this.
What else no longer exists? Well the Scottish Conservstive and unionist party is not mentioned on the front page. Nor is the Ruth Davidson say no Independence Party mentioned anywhere – bye bye Truthless. There is a tiny slither of union flag at the top of the front page.
What gets most coverage in his leaflet – yes you guessed it no to a second independence referendum. Democracy does not exist in the Toryworld.
In Toryworld Brexit just doesn’t exist when you are making a total bolloks of it and your constituency voted heavily for remain. Somehow I don’t think the voters have forgotten about Brexit.
@Daisy Walker
What can I say? I did stats at Uni and did some for a living in a previous life, even including putting together surveys (rather than polls) as verifying and processing the results.
As for asking awkward questions of the SNP, the more the merrier!
In general I like the poll, even with its problems. It’s indicative while not always being completely representative.
@Elmac
Yes, it happens. I actually accidentally misled Sevvie on the Grun by unearthing an opinion poll of SNP members (including about NATO) which turned out to be 2 years out of date. I did apologise 🙂
Anyways, back to recorded Wales v Fiji before I accidentally find out the result.
Two great rugby matches today. Two great wins for Scotland and Wales.
@Handandshrimp @ 1.34pm
Hi HandandShrimp, yep there is a person who is being consistently scathing of WOS on numerous SGP threads to the point of obsession…I think he/she has made his or her ( posts as Anonymous) point and maybe it’s….enough already…we get it..you do not like Stu Campbell….or indeed some of the people who post on WOS…..agree that there is more to this than just polls info and WOS party talk….bad blood…on his/her side anyway Lol
Sorry but if people feel so strongly about WOS and seem to have an abundance of criticism they wish to direct at him then perhaps better to voice it , in a diplomatic but forthright manner , DIRECTLY to the person who is obviously the target…. as opposed to going under cover on another person’s blog…get it said on WOS…if rebuffed…well at least you have had your say…and have been brave enough to vent your strong feelings that you obviously hold.
One of the points he/she makes is how dismissive they think WOS is of criticism…nope…look at the posts on here…he will challenge you if you have misunderstood/misinterpreted his posts and some people push their luck and sometimes deserve to be told to you know what off Lol…..
If he comes back at me and tells me I am talking sheeite and it is true…cause I do ( waits for incoming posts agreeing this)…and often do Lol…then that’s his right…it is his site and we are visitors and thanks to him we have the opportunity to voice our opinions on his blog…without which we would probably have all gone mental at the frustration and unfairness of feeling totally powerless and without any platform to voice our opinions….a wee release and respite from the neverending sheeite….no ?
I think people who contribute to his crowdfunds get their money’s worth with the amount he has contributed to the Independence movement.
Thankfully one or two of the posters on SGP have told this individual to give it a rest on slating WOS ….so he/she is even peeing off fellow contributors to that blog….but funnily enough NOT peeing off the person who runs the site….hmm.
Also worth noting that WGD had shut down negative talk of Stu on one of his threads as did another poster call it out…Good for you Paul ….
Questions stands. Is there a statistic for how many people abandoned the poll, if any, and is there any overall data for such “forced choice polls”, as to whether people would have answered “none of the above” if available? Bearing in mind that the panels probably don’t get paid if they fail to complete?’
‘And did they abandon the poll for any of the following reasons?
The doorbell rang and they had to answer cause they were expecting a parcel
They were ill that day, and decided they needed to go to bed
They didn’t realise it would be so long and had to rush out the door to pick up the kids
None of the Above’
I mean seriously, you do a poll and ask some questions to get some answers. But oh no, now we have to measure up the possible motives for those who don’t even do the bloody poll. Really.
No wonder the Labour Party imposed the 40% rule in the 1979 election – even the no show voter’s votes counted as a No with that methodology.
Dads army…4.26pm
Not necessarily, no poll can continue down the road of
“ and if none of these choices apply to you would any of these apply to you “
A poll is a quick assessment
Not a thorough examination
But I get where you are coming from
If you were asked a question and given a choice of answers but none of the answers suited you it would be a conundrum
In a thorough examination you would get the opportunity to hone in on your personal choice
In a quick assessment you get to choose whichever option is closest to your personal choice
That is what makes a poll unreliable
Wings is not the SNP. Electoral commission will note this if a Wings party is formed.
N’est- ce pas?
@ Me @ 4.40pm
Note there are two who post as anonymous but one adds their real name to end of their comment…tis other one I was referring too.
@ Clapper57 you’re getting as BAD as Liz G I find that I’m having to agree with mostly ALL your intelligent posts ( OK all ) this will have to stop or I’ll start feeling like a Cult ( did I spell that right ) member. smiley face thingy
Clapper57 @ 16:40,
I don’t think either Stu or James come out of this spat particularly well. Too many bruised egos and too little fair-mindedness all round.
Stu’s venture IMO is way too premature, if still worthy of due consideration in the light of events, whereas James has gone completely OTT in rejecting it out-of-hand. While he snidely dismisses any such venture as a RISE-like complete flop, he also clearly regards Scottish elections as a zero-sum game, in which any gain by another pro-indy party is necessarily a loss for the SNP. (Just a touch of cognitive dissonance there.) He clearly fears a loss of influence for the SNP if not an actual loss of seats, which doesn’t exactly demonstrate much confidence in the strength of support for the party.
While the SNP is indisputably in the vanguard of the movement for independence, and has earned its place there by its continuing words and deeds, its supporters do need to maintain eternal vigilance against creeping exceptionalism. We don’t need a repetition of NorthBritLab’s worst excesses. This is a democracy after all, and no-one has a right to demand sole proprietorship of any political aim.
I don’t even understand the prickliness of some party supporters on the subject, since to me, as a member of no party, the SNP seems in a very secure position indeed (despite its own internal divisions on strategy). It’s currently striving to win over the very people we need to win over to succeed, and we who are already convinced just need to maintain a grip and stay focussed on the essentials.
We’re even closer now than we have ever been, so let’s not get diverted by unnecessary negativity around the fringes.
@ Daisy Walker & Terry C I think you’ll find that dadsarmy is just being mischevious , he likes being contrary and has done so for a long time , I like his posts ( sometimes ) but I hope he disnae forget the HAMMERS
Wow, what a game, I won’t say the result in case anyone’s got it recorded for later.
@twathater
Yes, a bit, a bit Devil’s Advocate, but a bit serious too. Half and half. Polls are difficult, and the forced answer rather than having a don’t know is very difficult. But does have to be done to get info we might not otherwise get.
There is a difference. Here my posts haven’t been deleted. That’s a strength. In the other place they were. That’s a weakness. Nuff said.
Bullshit baffles brains
and Brexit is bullshit – but it’s still happening.
People need to focus or our Independence is in danger of being lost in the fog.
BREXIT IS GOING TO HAPPEN – and the SNP need to make the most of this crisis.
Oooh, another interesting Panelbase poll just done…
HandandShrimp. 1.34pm. My money’s on the tugging of the forelock. But who knows. I’d gladly lose my bet ,Scotland may yet grow a pair.
dadsarmy @ 17:32,
It seems to me that all that’s being registered in polls such as this latest set is the current level of detached wishful thinking. The only “forced poll” that matters in the end is an actual electoral one on the actual available options, and even then some people duck the issue by staying home. (Disengagement, whether voluntary or induced, is part of the process, if an unfortunately negative part.)
Elections, in any event, follow campaigns. A truism that is all-too-often forgot. Polls (public of private) may give a hint or ten of whom among the public is up for engagement with what, but in the end it’s the case you present in public debate, and how you make it, that matters. As we all know from recent history, you can win or lose a plebiscite in ways entirely unpredicted beforehand. Thankfully, message still matters.
So bring it on, so we can stop fannying around like this and get to the nub of it.
Ha, oh well (fx: catches up). Anyways, that’s CoS (and UKSC) over for some time thanks be to figs, nothing more to comment on it really. Monday 21st October nothing will happen, if Bozo does what he’s promised JOCKISH judges in some minor JOCK court somewhere in the wasteland north of Watford Gap, otherwise he’ll feel the full force of JOCK Law. That would teach him to hold JOCKISH stuff in contempt. Our contempt is made from girders.
Time to do some other stuff 🙂
Twitter and the internet need to be reformed by law
@RJS
Actually I totally approve of the real “intension” of these polls WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE 😎
I hope it works.
STV News focussing on a Lord Provost using her official spending budget in a legal manner to buy shoes etc etc. Meanwhile Westminster has been stealing billions from Scotlands revenues and resources for decades and not a bloody word from them.
Scottish – no chance.
Any decent values – no chance.
The Scottish media colluding in one of the greatest ever robberies of a nations wealth. They really are a bunch of tractors. Owned and controlled by a foreign country,
@ twathater @ 5.15pm
Big smiley face back to you….you are a sweetie.
@Robert J Sutherland @ 5.22pm
Once again Robert you are the voice of reason….Well I AM an SNP member and vote SNP at every election…BUT ….you know…dare I say it….not sure what is going on just now with the SNP ( not all the SNP I hasten to add)….wait for it…….incoming surely….
” So Clapper….not sure what’s going on…well there’s a surprise…you’re not sure about much are ye ..some SNP supporter you are…aye we see right through ye….dare ye say it…well ye just did….hasten to add is it…not all SNP is it…I’ll hasten to add you…you are a **##**….I’ll gie you incoming ya bam “…or words to that affect but articulated in a ‘I’ll show you’ manner….I’ll put you straight clapper…or as LizG calls me Flapper Lol
Obvs Robert not saying YOU saying the above Lol…but you know if you say owt some fowk say better you had said nowt….
ps. Cubby my above comment NOT directed at you…as our previous posts on another thread stated we respected our differing opinions on some things and agreement on others….so I’ll leave it open as to who I meant….Lol
Right that’s me f***ed …..batten down the hatches….or perhaps my imagination or paranoia is working over time….”imagination, paranoia is it….aye I’ll overtime ye…tell ye what’s NOT working yir brain…och aye the noo ya silly auld coo “…..see I cannot stop …I am actually creating comments of people who may or may not berate me….I need help…” Need help…ye certainly do …I’ll gie you needing help”
Make it stop …
Have a nice evening twathater & Robert
Had Scotland voted Yes in 2014 and become an independent country independence day would have been the 24 March 2016.
In fact, the Scotland Act 2016 received its Royal Assent on the 23 March 2016.
After reaching an agreement with the EU, to give the UK special status in the European Union, David Cameron announced on the 19th February 2016 that he would hold a referendum on the UK’s membership.
link to gov.uk
During the Scottish Referendum the President of the EU Commission claimed an independent Scotland could only join the EU under Article 49.
While the result of the EU Referendum was ‘unexpected’, Article 50 and its five parts is very convenient.
O/T Stop Press , Scotland finds potential new way of exiting major World sporting events!
Hagibis is moving towards Japan and expected to make landfall on Saturday.
Both England’s game against France in Yokohama on Saturday (09:15 BST) and Scotland’s vital match with hosts Japan at the same venue on Sunday (11:45 BST) could be affected.
BBC weather presenter and meteorologist Simon King said it is “one of the most powerful tropical cyclones this year”.
World Rugby has called a news conference on Thursday at 04:00 BST to discuss what action will be taken.
If the Scotland-Japan match was to be cancelled, under tournament rules Gregor Townsend’s side would be knocked out of the World Cup.
Jings! Lord Provost apologises…and will pay some money back.
FGS. I thought she got an allowance and under spent on it?
Good old SNP.
@ Lenny Hartley @ 6.11pm
Hi Lenny….could this also be applied to Scotland being ‘knocked’ out of the UK….cause there is a storm a comin…sometime soon…wait for it…it’s a comin..anytime now…wait for it ….wait….wait…wait…..hold…hold…hold….where the f**k is it ?
Now Stuart Campbell is the victim of cybernattery. Very interesting.
Clapper57@6.07pm
No problem. Good to see you back posting regularly on main thread.
@ Cubby @ 6.23pm
Big smiley face sent to you.
have a good evening Cubby.
@ Cubby @ 6.23pm
Cheers.
Smiley face
have a good evening Cubby.
You only use 1007 out of ap.120000 members in your polls. Over 95% of voters voted for independence in 2014 were not members of the SNP.
@ me 6.35 & 6.36pm
oops thought it had not accepted my first comment as message came up ‘duplicate…already said that’ or something…hence slightly changed it…but Cubby both meant ….lol
You only use 1007 out of approx.120,000 members in your polls. Over 95% of voters voted for independence in 2014 were not members of the SNP.
Cubby @4.38pm
Forgot to include this:
Who else does not exist in Mastertons leaflet. His brand new spanking Prime minister no less. Johnston not given a mention anywhere. Methinks he is not very keen on his new PM and knows that a lot of Scots are not that keen on him either. Methinks he is worried he is going to lose his seat.
“Now Stuart Campbell is the victim of cybernattery. Very interesting.”
Apparently it’s the best way to get a gig with the BBC (Loki, Haggerty et al).
Scots courts about to be anglicised, with the removal of not proven and the reduction of jurors to twelve, one wonders what else is in the pipeline.
Source the unionist STV news.
I see that the Independence movement is reverting to the old Scottish historical battle position …..when a win is in sight and we outnumber our enemies we start fighting amongst ourselves and lose.
I spend countless hours talking to my English and Welsh friends and relatives that the SNP is not Scotland and if we win independence there is no guarantee that the SNP will form the government. They find that difficult to understand.
The goal is independence and we have to be united to achieve it.
Re Q.11: Thanks to the f.p.t.p. election system, for a long time in the past – say in the Thatcher era – an SNP vote would have been wasted, so anyone over a certain age had almost surely at least once voted for some other party.
Also, how would someone who – say – usually voted labour, but sometimes LibDem, answer that question?
On the basis of Q.11 alone I cannot draw meaningful conclusions about the proportion of voters who switched to SNP after 2014.
Divide and conquer the English establishment are experts in this strategy. Surely we are smart enough not to throw our chance of regaining our statehood away ?
Daisy Walker @ 4.18
Well said Daisy…
That’s exactly how it’s supposed to work Dr Jim.
When they ( in this instance the SNP )get it right we acknowledge it and reward them with our support.
When they get it wrong we let them know that they need to change tack or justify their trajectory.
Loyalty doesn’t or shouldn’t come in to it.
It’s our lives that are being decided upon ….. That’s the social contract,the way we’ve ordered society,and what we pay them for!
It is always, always in our interests to question politicians.
This “Loyalty” malarkey is an outright con developed by the powerful, for the powerful and aimed at all the rest.
We in Scotland don’t need to look very far to see how corrosive the concept of loyalty has been as still is.
It changes our cooperative Pack mentality over into Heard mentality and we should reject it in all its forms but especially in politicians.
So it’s basically all about letting them know we the electorate expect them to do their job…. AKA shit or get off the pot..Aye?
Cubby @ 16.38, 18:53,
Methinks he is going to lose his seat. And deservedly so. Along with rest of that dross. And the sooner the better!
Don’t you think it’s a little ironic you complaining about abuse on social media when you are constantly telling people they’re thick and telling them to **** off.
If you’re so cocksure a Wings Party would be an electoral success get on and form one.
Until recently you ran a very good Independence supporting website but now you’re just divisive.
If you do have the balls to form a political party you might want to appoint a leader who is able to unite people. From what I’ve seen of you on this site and social media you’d make a terrible leader.
As far as I saw, the BBC national news at 6pm did not mention the case in the CoS today.
Could it be that their thinking is, that if they ignore it, it will go away?
I’ll give Reporting Scotland their due; they did cover it. Can it be that the national BBC does not get how important today’s decision could be?
I was gonna type that I would stock up on popcorn – but I have a quandary. In my youth, now long gone, I enjoyed a bag of Butterkist. The problem I have nowadays is that there are so many flavours of Butterkist – and none of them are described as “original”.
So, for the moment, I’ll stick with whisky and (Lidl) Iron Brew as a substitute.
William Purves @ 18:39,
Close reading, William. It was “people intending to vote SNP”, not yer actual party members exclusively. And – surprise, surprise! – people vote SNP for all sorts of reasons. And for even more things besides when you ask them about hypothetical scenarios outwith an actual election that won’t in the event include them.
@ Brian doonthetoon
It shouldn’t be a surprise. They are circling the wagons over this. They have spent hundreds of years downplaying Scotland’s place in the Union. Now they face, through their own arrogance and stupidity, that the country and people they have ridiculed and underminined may imprison using Scots law an English Constituency MP, First Minister of Her majesties government for contempt of court and act to counter unlawful action by the government. That is not something they are to keen to advertise. Just imagine how that is going to play out on the international stage and the EU.
Always a re assuring moment to read a poster who confirms your belief in human stupidity.
Thanks Ian B for your confirmatiob.
O/T
Interesting article about how Brexit could be making Britain a bargain for foreign investors. Link here:
Is Brexit making Britain a bargain for foreign investors?
@Liz g at 7.36pm
Absolutely correct. All politicians need to know, and one would hope they would wish, to understand what we are thinking so they don’t make mistakes that will cost them electorally.
With Scotland’s recent political awakening of the masses, long gone are the days where they can simply ignore the electorate and lead us down paths we do not want to go.
It’s exactly the reason why I would prefer Scotland to be independent.
I want those that aspire to lead us to know exactly what we want from them, and for them to understand that we will hold them directly to account should they digress from our chosen trajectory.
As the SNP are Scots current main and preferred party of choice that we elect and put our trust in, it is obvious that they will receive feedback / constructive criticism if and when they err.
Unionists parties don’t get much feedback on here for the very reason that we do not rate them at all, and we generally feel they are beyond the pale.
link to twitter.com
Part of the 1997 SNP manifesto:
“Scotland can regain its independence at any General Election…”
Forget s30 and UK sponsored indyref, that won’t happen again. It’s now discredited anyway due to to the terms of the indyref being repeatedly breached by the UK state.
Sometimes the auld ways are the best ways.
Bob Mack @ 8.21pm
Quality debating BM. You seriously think Rev Stu could run a successful political party?
His response to criticism is not unlike yours (i.e. – tell them they’re thick or tell them to **** off).
Bob Mack @ 8.21pm
Quality debating BM. You seriously think Rev Stu could run a successful political party?
His response to criticism is not unlike yours.
Dan @ 21:00,
Except bear in mind that we here, and the wider pro-indy community in general, are not the only – and not necessarily even the most important – section of public opinion to whom the FM has to be attuned right now, at this most pivotal of times.
Donald Trump has just threatened in a Tweet to *destroy* a country’s economy if they dare to go against what he says
@Ian B,
Youve developed a stutter
Three times from the government dispatch box Michael Gove has accused the SNP of being and using sectarianism as a tool to gain Independence, the SNP have lodged a formal complaint with the speaker of the house
Michael Gove is a prominant member of the Orange Lodge
Dr Jim @ 21:34,
(O/T) Yup, while he simultaneously gives the same vile regime a nod-and-wink to take out a recent US ally whose only “crime” is to want an independent country of their own, on their own land. Then Trump metaphorically washes his hands on Twitter of all the ensuing bloodshed he’s just enabled.
There’s dastardly forked-tongue double-dealing and there’s Trump dirty dealing.
And we think we have problems. (But all that’s an issue for a different forum.)
@Robert J. Sutherland at 9:29 pm
True, herding cats comes to mind… and 62% percent (and more than that now) of Scots cats prefer EU cat food, and visa free cat flap borders with our European neighbours keep us purring.
If I wake up one day soon and find our rights to live, work, and love around Europe have been removed from Scots against our expressed sovereign wishes I’ll be like.
link to youtube.com
You are wrong.
I am one of the 77% and the current efforts of the SNP do not put me, and most SNP voters I know, at odds with the SNP.
Because we get it.
@Ghillie
The 23% is wrong? OK what is YOUR empirical evidence rather than hearsay to make that claim ?
I am really sorry you have received abuse.
That’s horrible.
Words do hurt and cause pain.
Obviously,Jardine has a dress problem.
Gillie @ 10.26
Well if you and the people around you get it!
And I don’t doubt yer word Gillie….
Some of you need to make a point of visiting a few West coast/West central Branches and start explaining it!
A trip to Aberdeenshire could be useful too!!!
Because they’re getting nothing.
I’m sick of explaining the 20/30 different routes and combinations of routes the SNP could/would or look likely to be talking to keep them from despair and I’m not a member….
It’s a friendly caution Gillie, but another Placebo conference could do real damage…
“From the outside looking in”
Predictable Chaos, Europe Braces for the Effects of Brexit.
How the Europeans are preparing for “F**k Off day when WM goes full metal whacko…
link to spiegel.de
The fate of immigrants to the EU who are not the moaning, sun-soaked pensioners but who do work and integrate with their European friends.
‘Everything Is Out of Control’ What Awaits Britons Abroad After Brexit.
link to spiegel.de
I have just reread my post at 6.07pm and just realised I have come up with a PERFECT formula….for posting.
1. Post your comment.
2. Berate your comment on the same post…. as if someone else is berating what you have said.
Sooooooooooooo…………..you cut out the middle man and anticipate any possible negative feedback or disagreement that could be highlighted in anything you have stated in your post via another poster…..
Oh hello…….will it work ?…….No…. Lol
However……if you do get bad feedback at least you can say your post has already noted what you anticipated they would disagree with……..so where does that get you…..nowhere.
That should make me even more annoying for some people….
Here’s me self berating the above :
” Oh more annoying….like you could BE any more annoying…what a stupid pointless idea…to be expected from you ”
See …..a formula….
ps. Watch it fall apart by someone pointing out the obvious to something I have missed in my formula…” Oh something you have missed is it….like the whole point of this blog…to encourage debate….tinhead ”
The above comment is why I am not allowed to play with matches !
@ Graf Midgehunter @ 10.49pm
Hi Graf Midgehunter, will read your links later…yes there are peeps from UKOK who have made lives for themselves in Europe and this must be as hellish for them as it is for EU citizens living here….and the EU must be seriously p***ed off at all of this.
BM
I am not at odds with the SNP.
Nothing to do with the 23%
Yet again all parties represented on BBC Newsnight tonight getting to give each of their 10 mins opinion on the current brexit situation. Three guesses who wasn’t invited??? Grrrrrrrrrr
Looks like election on 26th November.
What then though? When/if Johnson wins a majority?
Had a wee look on BBC Debate night twitter…and yes the Glasgow Lord Provost clothes exclusive via FOI request from Paul Hutcheon question being asked ….comment from lady in audience stating terrible…she says she shops at Primark…she said she is a Waspi woman….she said does not take kindly to someone who gets £8000 for clothes….her remark concluded this same as the WM expenses scandal…..
I too am a Waspi woman and note how much the SNP have fought for women like me on this….so strange that she should , as a Waspi woman, focus on this and NOT focus on the Waspi debate instead.
Perhaps some individual should delve into expenses from other individuals in other political parties thus not singling out JUST the SNP politicians….say like someone from The National…because this has grown arms and legs and will I am sure embolden Paul to seek further FOI requests on the SNP….
Wow from David Clegg to Paul…two cheeks of the same DR arse indeed…
BTW Paul’s twitter states he is providing post match analysis of Debate night…how convenient…and timely….for Paul….hmm
Clapper57 @ 23:28,
Ach, as Dr Jim mentioned upthread, it’s just another irritating example of the Scottish NitPicker Circus, of which Hutcheon is a usual suspect, and the BBC can always seemingly find some random (=ahem=) voxpopper to join in the chorus, irrespective of how little sense it makes.
It’ll be a blessed relief when in an independent Scotland we get back to ordinary cheap politicking and leave all this heavy-duty weaponising of every damn little thing behind.
Dominic Cummings puts his hand over the ‘phone at number 10 and shouts over to Boris . .
“There’s another one of these Celtic tossers on the line, do you want to talk to them?”
“O vere mihi in deo! I hope Leo did not actually here you say that did he? How many times have I told you not to let Johnny Foreigner actually hear what you think of them”
(Dominic) “It’s not Leo, it’s that bloody woman again desperate for a deal. We are scheduled to release a ton of nasty makey-upy briefings to our press when Leo is over in the morning – we’ll have the Tuckshop sorted proper and either he or some EU Kraut is taking the blame”
“Curam habere! She thinks she’s British you fool – watch your language with the Ffn Irish Biddy – we don’t need her right now but keep her sweet ‘cos you never know when you need 10 votes”
(Dominic) Its not the Paul Merton look-alike. I know how to handle bl–dy Motica Adams Granny – its the other one – says she has 30 votes for sale. It’s the sweaty in chief herself”.
“She says she called you yesterday about a deal”
“Nam amor omnium sanctum! I spoke to her yesterday. I had to get off the ‘phone before I laughed out loud and forgot to call her back. She said someone in Bath had told her to give me a ring and offer me a snap election or a no-deal vote or whatever the F we wanted so long as she got the power to call a referendum vested in the Scottish parliament”
(Dominic) “You’re sh—n me. Why the F did you not say? This is GOLD. Does she not know what the likes of Walter Softy and Mortica’s Granny would say if you voiced such an idea? The Spartans would go bonkers – no-one wants to lose all the Scottish dosh”
“I thought I was on candid camera so did not want to react. But, et auribus tuis audi, make sure it is her, and then put her on – make sure we get it recorded. This proves Ffn seaties are more stupid than the paddies”
Jo Swinson furnished an entire flat in Bearsden on expenses right down to teaspoons and tooth floss for the bathroom and then sold it to move to Chippenham where she really lived all the time when the Lib Dems were in coaltion with the Tories
Now that’s whataboutery but nonetheless as always with Liberal Democrats they avoid telling the truth about themselves
I remember well when previous Labour administrations in Glasgow flew off on Jaunts to Cuba and other exotic places around the world for *Fact finding missions* that was in the days when expenses were handed out in brown envelopes
What you have now are the dregs of the Lefty socialist Labour lot complainig about something they themselves did to massive excess and their pals in the press just love to help them out on it because it makes for lovely populist anger in the same way as they sqeal about more money for the NHS but know perfectly well there is more money but because of their support for Tory governments we’re losing people out of the NHS, and as Phillipa Whitford continually tries to tell people machines don’t fix you, you aren’t seen by machines when you make appointments, it’s people we’re short of, we’ve got the money but our people are leaving the country
From January to June of this year renewable energy in Scotland generated enough electricity to power two Scotlands, the UK vetoed a deal to sell some of it to France
There are hundreds of things wrong but there are thousands of things right bearing in mind that the Westminster exchequer retains 42% of Scotland’s money, it’s all about what Westminster decides to spend our money on that if Scotland were Independent, we wouldn’t, and we all know what we wouldn’t spend money on so when you start counting that up Scotland would be quite comfy off very quickly
I really wish I liked booze
@ Robert J Sutherland @ 11.52pm
Amen to that Robert.
BTW…what did you think of my formula in my previous post..workable ?….or am at one with the fairies ?
Be honest….I have not applied formula since posting comment about it at 10.50pm…but by God I will….I will…maybe…perhaps..probably..we’ll see…just you wait etc etc….Lol
I think we might not be getting a general election now if tonight’s Newsnight is anything to go by.
It appears that on the 19th October the opposition parties are going to try to pass a motion for a confirmatory vote (ie a second referendum).
@ me @ 12.03
” or am at one with the fairies “…obvs should be “or am ‘I’ at one with the fairies ”
See corrected my own post..not berated my own post..using different formula…i.e. doing it on follow up post…as opposed to same post….
Oh ffs forget it….I am deficient in applying my own formula….Lol
Your actions and behaviours are the sole reason why people have turned against you and your usefulness and readership has plummeted.
It is with sadness I say that but it is clear you are now useful to unionism, not independence.
The posts have dried up and you now appear to be anti SNP doing so in the vain hope of dipping into the pockets of the misguided.
It was obvious when you started throwing good money from readers on a imbecilic venture in court against an idiot rather than exposing her stupidity on the site, that there was only one direction for wings – such a shame!
And the top question on Channel 115’s Debate Night in the light of today’s CoS decision to dangle BoJo over a cliff for a while to see if he does as he is telt, was *drunroll* the Lord Provist of Glasgow spending too much on claes? An’ shoes. And, eh, underwear. An aw that.
Aye, there we had it – 20 minutes of rummaging aroon in the LP’s wardrobe and panties drawer and shoe racks to check the price tags on her new gear.
She is Swedish of course – which means feck all but still didn’t save her from being compared with tax evader Jacob Rees Mogg, uber-greed merchant Fred “the Shred” Goodwin and other villainous chiels.
It was entirely lost on the audience of course that she had done nothing wrong – and instead for her disgraceful conduct.Ms Bolander was wrathfully hauled over the coals in a fit of Calvinistic spite by assorted shut-faced contributors.
One particularly nasty wee nyaff gave it laldy on how “the unions” had to fight to get equal pay for Glasgow CC female employees – when it was the unions and the Labour controlled council that stitched them up in the first place and the SNP who sorted the mess.
When the panelists finally woke each other up to debate Brexit, manky jaiket’s hingers on wurnae slow in comin’ furrit.
I mean Jesus sufferin’ fuck it was bad – where do they get these people from?
When the dug slunk underneath the dresser at ma shoutin’ I knew it was time tae switch aff.
Hey BBC shortbread – yer slip’s showin’!
Major OT… sorry.
Easy decision to cancel the Engerland V France game as they are both through to the next round…….. and they have BTW.
However, Can they let the host nation be knocked out and by a weeee Nation that is not Independent though?????? Or is that a conspiracy watch this space……
Clapper57 @ 00:03,
I wouldn’t worry. Just post and “damn the torpedoes”. Sometimes you get it in the neck (for good reason or for none) and sometimes – very occasionally – you even get a compliment.
So just say what you think is apposite and leave the rest to others. Keeps life simple. (Anyway, most of the bad flak these days seems to be directed at Stu!)
You canny win with the Britnats. If the Lord Provost turned up looking like Michael Foot used to then they would have slaughtered her for dressing like a tramp. Why didn’t she use her allowance they would say. No respect for the position she holds. This sort of crap will always happen as long as the Britnats control the media.
Absolutely no chance of the Britnats discussing the billions of revenues and taxes stolen from Scotland over decades. How about a Freedom of Info on this subject matter Hutcheon.
All the bams seem to be on my case these days never mind the site owner.
So a simple message to the bams – the site owner gives it back with two barrels. I intend to follow his lead in future. So get off my back.
Debate night.
Suspect questions are submitted to producer prior to broadcasting thus really contentious issues binned.
For me, the STOP BREXIT campaign doesn’t conflict with an independence goal. What it does is demonstrate, beyond all reasonable doubt, that Westminster is the enemy of Scottish democracy.
If you’re a democrat you must give up any illusion that Westminster provides the slightest chance of democratic decision making. It is a cesspit of lies, deceit, bullying, cheating, theft and chicanery. It is a monument to arrogant greed.
Topped off by the biggest unelected legislative chamber in the world (perhaps excepting the Chinese Politburo), Westminster operates through a maze of arcane “rules” and conventions which can be conjured up whenever occasion demands. It can overturn any vote, law or rule if it gets in the way of the Executive.
Westminster is a dead parrot.
Which would you rather have governing your country? This travesty of democracy called Westminster? Or this oasis of calm common sense, led by our internationally respected FM, Holyrood?
Next time the Scottish voters are asked to choose the media will have to surpass themselves to disguise the sheer folly of choosing Westminster.
£4K for outfits. £80 a week, A budget of £1Billion+. A bit of misogyny is going on. The equal pay for women pay out. £1/2Billion achieved. Looks like a good pay out. Going into Glasgow for women. Other economies made. A good trade. .
Illegal unequal marches cost £Millions to Police and disrupt the economy. Football policing for troubles £Millions. MUP saving lives and £Billions. Trident, HS2, Hinkley Point wasted £Billions.
People drink too much and get depressed. Alcohol is a depressant. It give a high then gives a low. Alcohol poisons the human body. People become depressed and then go to the Dr for depression tablets. A double dose. People can commit suicide or overdose under the influence.
MUP is stopping people drinking too much. Alcohol related deaths are down 25%. An increase in depression statistics could on the increase by people drinking to much and more awareness. People seeking help. People admitting to their problems. Lifestyle changes can be a guide to help. Total abstinence rehab can be a help and is cost affective. Proper rehab counselling and help a few £Thousand. Prison £40,000 a year. There is a link between Alcohol/drugs and crime. People commit increased offences under the influence of drugs and alcohol. The drink’s, in the wit’s oot.
There are too many people on the spectrum in prison without being given the proper support. Too many women. It needs more awareness. Crime is a gender issue. More men commit crime.More men are the victims. Men lash out, women internalise. Different reactions to stress and anxiety? Less women commit suicide because they are the main carers?.
The Tory Royals cause depression. The Tory Gov, Brexit and Austerity increase depression in people’s lives. The Tories cause more strife and anxiety. They are responsible for increased death and depression. The Tory cuts affecting people’s health. The anxiety and stress they cause people (worldwide).
People can’t sleep for worry. Increasing depression and anxiety.Just because of the Tory Party. The Westminster unionist imbeciles cause people depression and worry in their lives because of Brexit. The worries affect everyone. They are an absolute disgrace causing mental health problems unsolicited.
The Tories cut NHS £4Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. Now having to reinvest. They cut Education £6Billion a year from 2015 to 2020. They cut Welfare benefits £18Billion over 6 years, Despite being elected to support essential services. They cut them. ConDems. They caused Brexit. EU vote. They are spending £Billions a year on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident. A total waste of money. Making people more depressed.
The Scottish Gov had to mitigate the cuts and have to try to stop Brexit and stay in the EU. £Billions are being lost to Scotland because of Westminster unionist policies. Total mismanagement and incompetence. Brexit could ruin the economy. Unlikely to happen but an IndyRef will come out of it.
Doug Buchannan says:
10 October, 2019 at 12:25 am
Your actions and behaviours are the sole reason why people have turned against you and your usefulness and readership has plummeted.
It is with sadness I say that but it is clear you are now useful to unionism, not independence.
The posts have dried up and you now appear to be anti SNP doing so in the vain hope of dipping into the pockets of the misguided.
It was obvious when you started throwing good money from readers on a imbecilic venture in court against an idiot rather than exposing her stupidity on the site, that there was only one direction for wings – such a shame!
You know Mr Buchannan, I empathise with your frustration, but wonder if you have any empathy for mine, because if you substituted ‘abandoning sovereignty and pursuing a Soft Brexit’ for the imbecilic venture at the end, I reckon I could just about get away with redirecting that comment word for word to Oor Nicola.
I read months ago, probably years ago now, a comment, or maybe it was a blog article written by Peter Bell which warned about the SNP’s secretive and enigmatic strategy running a very real risk of breeding frustration and resentment. QED.
Just stop and take a breath for perspective everybody… Two weeks before Scotland might be subjugated and robbed of its EU Citizenship, when we have the Constitutional means to halt Brexit in it’s tracks, the SNP Conference will not discuss alternative emergency plans to deliver Independence, nor will it discuss the fate of EU Nationals in Scotland. Does that “feel” right to you? Does it even feel democratic? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK HAVE YOU BECOME?
Brexit is THE key to our Constitutional liberation after three centuries of colonial suppression and withering exploitation, and with the WORST Campaign Strategy ever devised in the history of Fucking Useless Campaign Strategies, you obnoxious miserable gobshites are PISSING OUR OPPORTUNITY UP AGAINST A WALL, wasting the precious lifeblood of our liberation, and all you fuckers have to say for your own dismal underachievement is that all the exasperation is somebody else’s fault.
My heart weeps when I think where we stood back in 2014 and 2015, the inspiring nobility of our fully mobilised YES army, who’s efforts were rewarded with the Constitutional Godsend of Brexit dropped into our laps! But dear God, the head of MI5 himself could not have dissipated our momentum any better than the SNP Leadership, striving for some weirdly insecure acceptance by the very Establishment we want to be rid of, and conspicuous invisibility which for a long time wouldn’t even mention the “i” word at a time when Scotland should have been screaming its lungs out and standing up for itself.
I don’t care if there’s a 1000 of you or a million of you, there’s only one of you who is currently making a difference, and that’s Joanna Cherry, whom, we must hope, is still just warming up, and drawing strength and growing in confidence from a moderate and cautious application of Scotland’s Constitutional strength… a mighty sledgehammer which won’t just crack the nut of revoking Article 50 or telling Boris Johnson what letter to write, it will god willing, keep Scotland in Europe where we rightfully belong, and liberate our Nation from three centuries of darkness and impoverishment, … and three grey years of inarticulate political paralysis.
This is not a rehearsal for 2020. The fight is already upon us and we can still win it before 31st October simply by defending our Constitutional Sovereignty and repelling it’s assault from unlawful Colonial subjugation. You’d think a Party Conference might want to talk about that, … wouldn’t you? Instead they are leading us to defeat and attacking those who protest in frustration. Take a moment to think about that.
It’s not Boris proroguing Parliament which should be taken to Court, it’s Nicola and the SNP for abandoning our sovereignty to foreign subjugation which warrants being subjected lawful scrutiny. It seems there is little choose between an unconstitutional and unlawful personal crusade by Boris Johnson and the same high handed single minded unconstitutional crusade from the SNP. Neither engage with constructive scrutiny, nor it would seem, objective debate.
And by the way, £8k expenses seems small potatoes. If I was suddenly elevated to high public office, my own wardrobe would need a massive overhaul before it was fit to entertain important dignitaries and exude the correct impression. And that’s speaking as a bloke with one suit and one pair of shoes for every occasion whether it’s a wedding or a funeral.
I seem to recall however a certain Prime Minister spending nearly £1k as I recall within days of taking office on a single pair of leather trousers and then sacking somebody who dared to criticise the profligacy.
Does anyone know if there will be a motion on how to expel snotty little self important freaks?
OT
Been saying it for several years – Japan should NEVER have been given a world cup – they haven’t earned it.
And I don’t buy the bullshit about spreading the game in their country – its not like they have a massive pool of second rowers just waiting to be discovered.
My hope for the future is that an Independent Scotland could host one – and we would be brilliant at it too!
@Breeks,
Great post Breeks I have dreams of crowds standing outside a closed Holyrood waving flags and shouting that al! will be wel! when Nicoola unleashes plan B.
I admire faith in anyone but I also know that it can leD you
up many a blind alldy.
The posters who criticise the Rev are hanging onto that belief despite evey shred of evidence indicating that the SNP are and have missed a great opportunity to put clear water between ourselves and Westminster.
It is easier for them to attack the Rev rather than cha!lenge their own belief system. A man who has done more for independence than many of thenm have done in hears or sometimes decades.
Breeks @ 7.29 BBC still milking the Lord Provost’s expenses and asking SNP MPs if they agree with the claims.
Strange that they don’t challenge Jo Swinson on supporting Tory Austerity and increasing student tuition fees.
Or Tories and Labour on refusing the mandate for another Independence referendum
which are all more important issues.
BTW I think Eva made a huge error of judgement
Nicola and the SNP (Gov) are doing everything within their power for Scotland and making an excellent Job of doing it. Scotland has never been in better economic state since 1928. Or nearer Independence. Without the SNP and the SNP (Gov) Scotland would be nothing. In decline.
They are carrying out their mandate to the letter. 86% to stop Brexit and staying in the EU. 80% for a GE. 52%+ for another IndyRef when it can be won. Support for SNP/Independence rising all the time. Demographics. Prioritise. The best strategic strategy. For any successful campaign or management. The electorate agree. That is why the SNP keep on winning magnificent victories. They carry out the electorate mandate to the letter. They make fast improvements to the economy within their powers. An IndyRef will be held when it can be won. People must keep voting for it. A S30 can be obtained through the Court because Scotland has not been treated equally in the Union. Outvoted 10 to 1.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
@Ken500,
You exemplify my point. Domextically the SNP are untouchable.
Have you seen the Conference agenda ? How many sessions are devoted to independence ? Guess?p
Seems problematic when the Scottish party of independenceh dont want to discuss it. No ?
There is no mention of Swinson’s husband’s £Millions fund from the EU. Undeclared and kept hidden illegally. Johnston criminality. The unionist crooks at Westminster milking the system. Blair the war criminal mass murderer. Most of them should be in jail. Blair, Brown, Osbourne, Clrgg and Johnston should be out in jail for the trouble they have caused in the world. An absolute scandal of disgrace. A total scandal.
Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.
Attacking a women for spending within a limit. £80 a week. An organisation budget of £1Billion+ In the right attire for the job. Just like a uniform. Misogyny. Most uniforms can cost £thousands a year. Working attire for women in privilege posts can cost £80+ a week. Or a lot, lot more. The clothes can be recycled. Others can get the good of them. Wear and tear. They can end up helping others and be put to good use.
The unionist press are scraping the barrel and everyone knows it.
The SNP have been telling us for over three years that the people of Scotland voted Remain, so the SNP won’t allow us to be dragged out of the EU.
The argument from the FM and her supporters is that Brexit has to be crystallised or established and that that remains uncertain. That point of crystallisation may be fast approaching.
If Scotland is dragged out of the EU and the SNP’s only response is to complain, I fear the criticism, frustration and questioning of SNP strategy will turn to real anger and open revolt against the SNP’s leadership and especially the FM.
I genuinely hope it does not come to that.
SNP and FM, you have been warned.
The SNP members, Party and voters do nothing but discuss Independence. That is why another Independence Ref is coming soon. As soon as it can be won. If people keep on voting for it. Prioritise. Independence is not just for Christmas. Independence is for life. It will happen when the masses vote for it. Support continually rising.
The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. Agree by the total voters so far. The mandate they have given. Followed to the letter. One campaign at a time for best use of resources. Or campaigns can be lost. It is better to ensure the success of every one. Some people never learn. They make the same mistake over and over again. It is better to learn from experience. To make the right decision. That is being done.
With a GE probably being imminent, it’s too late to start selling the benefits of independence to the unconverted. A campaign should have started at least 3 years ago instead of going on about indyref2 which is a mechanism not a message.
Why should someone who is uncertain about independence want another independence referendum if they do not know what is on offer at the other end?
Heading for SNP conference in a few days and it will be interesting to see how satisfied delegates and members will be. I have not met many who are interested in the resolutions, worthy as they may be, while the main issue of independence appears to be pretty much off the agenda, even at fringe events. Standing ovations as usual? I simply don’t get it.
It is also difficult to comprehend the strategy of trying to keep the UK in the EU which will kill indy stone dead if it comes to pass.
Paul Hutcheon used to be a journalist.
@Footsoldier,
Yes, an election is imminent, but will the SNP fight that
election primarily on an Indepedence agenda? That sould seem a bit iffy, given the seeming lack of progress to date.
Or will the e!ection slogan be “We will get Scotland back into the EU”?
Time will tell I suppose.
I really don;t understand why the First Minister and mandarins of the British, “Scottish National Party” would put their trust in Labour, nor why they claim that a S30 Order is required for a legal referendum. We have no need of a Section 30 Order. We don’t even need a referendum. An act of the Scottish Parliament resiling the Treaty of Union and revoking the Act of Union is all that it required. Of course it should be followed by a confirmatory referendum. Why the British, “Scottish National Party” insist on following English law seems very strange. The claim that the EU require a country establishing independence to submit to the law of the Country from which it wants to become independent seems very strange.
The following is “… the legal opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom, as submitted to the International Court of Justice in the Kosovo case. The International Court of Justice endorsed this view, so it is both established law and the opinion of the British Government that the Scottish Government has the right to declare Independence without the agreement or permission of London and completely irrespective of the London Supreme Court.”
“The Independence of a country is not a matter of domestic law it is a matter of international law. The right of the Scottish Parliament to declare Independence may not be restricted by UK domestic law or by purported limitations on the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The legal position is set out very clearly here:
5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of
the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor
States law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.
5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration
of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of
the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be
predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in
which the secession is occurring.
5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim
independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international
law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional
authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond
the scope of already conferred power.”
The time when the English parliament of the UK was in chaos seemed to be a propitious time for the Scottish Parliament to resile the Treaty of Union and revoke the Act of Union. Perhaps the new session will bring an opportune time.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
I believe the SNP will never declare UDI (in effect) by dissolving the Union. The reason is they may fear civil unrest promoted by extreme Unionist movements.OO
What happened in Glasgow re the marches was only an indicative defiance. They Scottish government may fear more violent unrest would follow.
Footsoldier says:
Indeed. I was at the Spring conference in Edinburgh and was left feeling very much like that. Yes, worthy causes discussed. But not what everyone really wanted to talk about. Face to face over coffee, chatting to those seated next to me, folks wanted to get on with delivering independence.
IMO independence has been downplayed and sidelined by the SNP just too much. There’s a difference between the party, the government, parliament, the executive. While the latter three do have wider issues and remits, the party needs to stay more focused on the main game,
Memo to the SNP leadership ahead of conference:
The no deal lunatics truly have taken over the UK asylum.
Donald Tusk spoke the truth about Johnson and given the current trajectory there is no way back.
The SNP has played a blinder at Westminster and Holyrood in trying to protect Scottish interests by stopping Brexit, garnering support and respect along the way.
But the overwhelming majority of SNP members I talk to believe that boat has sailed, and now we must grasp the chance to save ourselves.
Tremendous trust remains invested in the SNP leadership as evidenced by the 200,000 in Edinburgh on Saturday.
It was a truly inspiring day full of hope and joy and belief, to which I’m sure Tommy, Joanna, Chris, Stewart and other colleagues can testify.
When Nicola says enough is enough, says we have done all we can, says we must uphold the people’s mandate for IndyRef2 and says we stand by Scotland’s overwhelming decision to remain in the EU, we are ready.
When the First Minister of Scotland tells the EU and the world that our country was one of the two sovereign state signatories to an international treaty, the Treaty of Union, and as such have the absolute right to dissolve it should the majority of the people wish it so, we are ready.
And when she says now is the time to fight for our country’s very survival, we will not be found wanting.
The SNP members, Party, voters speak about nothing else than a Independence. Waiting till the time is soon right. The leadership will know. They have never let Scotland down and never will. It is now up to the voters and society. To make their choices and they will.
Keep right on to the end of the road, keep right on to the end. May the way be strong. Just carry right on over the line. To victory.
The voters will only support legal action. So should govs respect the Law. Or they will fail.
I don’t want brexit I voted remain
But I accept that the brexit referendum was a UK vote and not a vote for each country in the UK
So I think SNP should not be trying to stop brexit
The brexiters won
I wouldn’t like it if england Wales NI tried to stop Scotland being independent when we win a Scottish independence referendum
Results have to be respected by both sides
That’s democracy
Having said that
I’m still supporting SNP because they are the only way through which we will achieve Scottish independence , at present.
A S30 should not be abandoned because when we leave the UK we will have to reach agreement with England wales NI on how we take our share of assets out of the UK and how we will do business with each other in the future an amicable arrangement is best for everyone.
I have heard it said that people vote SNP for all sorts of reasons and in a way that’s true
I vote SNP because amongst other things i think people in Scotland including family and friends will see a rise in their living standards once Scotland is independent and I think at present voting for the SNP is the best way to achieve that.
Sure there may be some people who vote SNP to get free prescriptions free university tuition etc but I don’t think there will be many at all that do that because what’s the point you get those things for free even if you don’t vote SNP.
When it comes down to it people vote SNP because they want Scottish independence or they want Scotland to retain its separate identity ,they may, like me have other aspirations that they believe will be gained through that action of voting for SNP but primarily for most a vote for SNP is a vote for Scottish independence.
The 23% that say in this poll that they vote SNP but want to remain in the UK are clearly NOT Scottish independence supporters you would normally think they would vote labour or Tory or Lib Dem because all three support Scotland staying in the UK but be reminded that there are a lot of people who will not vote for someone because of prejudice and labour and Tory leaders of the recent past being gay may well have put many voters off and likewise a labour leader who is English may well have put many people off voting for them and the Lib Dem’s having gone into coalition with the tories a few years ago will also have turned some voters away from them in Scotland.
There will also be people who say they vote SNP but do not actually vote SNP
when I lived in England it caused no end of trouble for me to say I believed in Scottish independence and being the only Scot in the street it was no fun dealing with the spiteful behaviour and exclusion I experienced
Eventually I found that it was easier to retain my beliefs but keep them from others including friends and neighbours and if the subject of my Scottishness ever arose it was beneficial to lie and say I believed in Britishness and was against Scottish independence, not that I was then treated as an equal, I wasn’t, but I was not treated as the enemy and that made life a lot easier.
I’m sure there are many many people living that same lie in Scotland.
@Breeks 7:20am
“Scotland might be subjugated and robbed of its EU Citizenship”
I understand the qualifier, it technically has not ocurred, hope springs eternal. This is not a criticism of your post, it’s just a personal observation and opinion.
For many of us Brexit has already happened. We have had to alter our lives, it has impacted our businesses our future plans, our travel, our families, financial burdens have increased and none of this will be “reversed” any time soon. Much of it cannot be reversed, decisions have had to be taken which are irrevocable.
The hope, the trust and desire, that perhaps somehow Brexit may be avoided, is reflected in most polls and I suspect even Indy polls. However the reality for many, is that Brexit is happening, has happened, the stench of it just hasn’t reached other nostrils yet. I’m only interested in Independence, I’m already smeared in Brexit.
The turd of Brexit is lying there already, covered in soiled and soggy tissue paper dreams, we’re only waiting the ineveitable flush. There is no redemption on the horizon. Brexit is a fait-accompli. Politicians may not know ‘the full details of Brexit’. They may be reluctant to proceed with their next bowel movements, they have no wish to be hit with their own splashback – but there is a swathe of public who know precisely what the details of Brexit are. We’re already covered in their pish, it just rinsed their shite off our eyes and now we’re left staring at arseholes. It doesn’t much matter whose, the result is going to be the same.
The SNP are not going to stop Brexit, nor halt it, nor are they going to reverse effects which have already ocurred, nor are they going to retain our EU citizenship (that is solely the gift of the EU and they are only interested in the UK until the UK is lost) The SNP might help us achieve independence, if they can get a plebiscite out and Scotland votes for it. They may help us eventually get back to some form of EU inclusion, with the EU’s assistance, after a successful plebiscite, but that’s about it.
That I suppose, is where Stu’s call for the SNP to just stand up, reach out and flush comes from.
Sorry if that rained on anyones parade.
It will be a great Conference as usual of like minded people. Knowledgeable and wanting to impose their society and the world. It will be an uplifting experience as usual. Anyone can join abd attend. The more the merrier the better it will be.
Join, donate, campaign everyone do what they can for victory. Do everything anyone can to improve their society.
Wanting to improve their society and care for others. Wanting to give not wanting to get from others.
Terry , you must have missed the independence referendum because the people of England and their cohorts in Westminster and the media did nothing but interfere and try to stop independence .
As for the ‘advisory ‘ referendum – yet again the people of Scotland were lumbered with the leavers in England and Wales , whom they can never beat purely numerically.
Bob Mack says:
10 October, 2019 at 9:38 am
I believe the SNP will never declare UDI (in effect) by dissolving the Union. The reason is they may fear civil unrest promoted by extreme Unionist movements…
Bob we don’t have to. Just by ‘being’ sovereign, we prevent Westminster from being sovereign, and thus we bring their colonial misadventure careering to a halt.
“They” fail in their misadventure because they have no sovereign clout or authority to overrule our objection to their misadventure, and that simple reality carries two inevitable consequences… Brexit fails, or at least Scotland’s Brexit fails, and secondly, the fundamental and irreconcilable falacy at the heart of the UK Union is stripped of its facade of legitimacy, and the faux sovereignty of Westminster Government is exposed as a wholly unconstitutional sham which cannot properly exist.
There maybe is a risk of unrest and instability in the aftermath of Scottish emancipation, but a Constitutional rupture of the UK caused by the reckless and illegal incompetence of a Westminster Government in chaos is an altogether different political and popular landscape from a scenario where Scotland instigates the rupture via any UDI (not possible anyway), or any indecisive, inconclusive or disputed referendum result.
Scotland’s Independence being a consequence of Westminster’s abject incompetence is much less inflammatory or provocative in my opinion and much less likely to spark unrest. The Union isn’t destroyed by Scotland but by it’s own bloated incompetence and arrogance. The Unionists in Scotland will have more cause to be angry with Boris Johnson and his Muppet Show in London than a Scottish Nation demanding the rule of law is respected.
The SNP (Gov) are doing exactly what the electorate want as per the Mandate. Stop Brexit and stay in the EU. 86% A GE 80%+ Another IndyRef 52% and rising.
@Ian Mhor,
We essentially are clutching at straws just now. I believe like you that Brexit will be one that suits Westminster,whichever form it takes. Thefe will be no comfort for Scotland. It is not a consideration.to please Scotland.
!ike the Kurds are finding out you can serve a master who will eventually turn on you anyway.
We do not learn from history We just relive it again and again.
The SNP conference information is on the website. The agenda, resolutions, fringe meetings etc can be read here. There are many interesting discussions scheduled, and independence is mentioned in several. You don’t have to be a member to read it:
link to snp.org
@Ken500
‘An increase in depression statistics could on the increase by people drinking to much and more awareness. People seeking help. People admitting to their problems. Lifestyle changes can be a guide to help. Total abstinence rehab can be a help and is cost affective. Proper rehab counselling and help a few £Thousand.’
It is possible that for some people – the depression comes first and the effects of alcohol are an attempt to get parts of the brain working that are otherwise not – self medicating is the term used.
With regards total abstinence re alcohol addiction – in the 1950 Dr Sinclair was tasked with investigating this. Rats are not naturally inclined to like alcohol. They gathered up a bunch of rats with an alcohol affinity and gave them access to alcohol. Then they cut them off from alcohol for over 1 month – total abstinence. On reintroducing alcohol to the rats – they were stunned to discover that the rats craving/liking for alcohol had INCREASED in its absence.
Put that into a human perspective for a minute. For an alcoholic, every day of ‘good’ behaviour, of abstinence, leads to an Increase in craving. That is torture…. and not a recipe for success, given that will power is a finite resource.
Sinclair carried out more work and discovered that one of the main parts of the brain which lights up with alcohol is the same part that lights up with opioids. He speculated and then carried out research to find out if opioid blockers (non addictive, inexpensive, and safe to administer) would enable the rats to wean themselves off alcohol. They did, and then so did the humans. Once no ‘high’ is obtained from drinking alcohol the cycle of addiction is broken and the brain re-wires itself.
Sinclair went on to work in Finland where his program is widely prescribed. It has a success rate of over 60%.
The Scottish NHS has enabled the same prescriptions to be issued here. Until recently – and I’m not sure it has changed – until recently England’s NHS did not.
Unfortunately even the GP’s in Scotlan do not know a lot about it and are more likely to prescribe the tablets that make a person ill when drinking (which the alcohol is already doing anyway) rather that deal with the receptors in the brain. If you think it would work for you, you need to know to ask for it!
For more info – there is a web site on you tube which includes info about the Sinclair method – called the 3 C Foundation.
Re Depression – in Scotland between October – April – our latitude is such that our place in the world does not get the correct UV wavelengths of light for our bodies to produce Vitamin D (which is actually a hormone). To this end most Scots are at least a wee bit deficient in this. Many more are very deficient.
A main symptom of this is Depression, chronic fatigue, and much more.
If you think you are depressed and are seeking help from the GP – be no harm in finding out what your Vit D levels are.
There is thought to be a link with MS – Scotland has one of highest rates of MS in the world.
There is another website re this called (from what I remember – Why Scots need Vit D) written by Doctors. It has the up to date research and advice re how much to take, etc.
Please note for anyone with very low levels of Vitamin D – 3 months of high level supplements will see NO CHANGE, only after then will a difference be felt (worth knowing so folk don’t get down hearted – expecting a gradual improvement – and think its not working).
The above is offered up as a different route up the same mountain. Works for some, not for others.
Best wishes to all.
@Capella,
Did you see the story in the National about the fight to have a debate on plan B on the agenda. Strong resistance from the hierarchy . Wny?
@Proud Cybernat says:9 October, 2019 at 1:54 pm:
O/T
WTAF????
link to archive.is
Well! Proud Cybernat, if you think about that little problem you would conclude that it is a great opportunity to put the MOD right where they belong – behind MOD fences.
The Rule of Law of Scotland states that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and that means the people, not either the crown or the government own Scotland. Which is why the people have legal Right to Roam in Scotland – being sovereign means they own Scotland.
However there are a few exceptions to that right to roam rule of law. There is no English style law of trespass in Scotland but the people can trespass on certain areas but these are not because of private ownership of the land but upon the safety of the individual or for the privacy of the individual private legal residents.
For an example you can trespass upon railway lines and specifically, (in this present case), upon MOD Property like bases, barracks or practice bombing ranges. From memory the MOD police do have certain powers on non-MOD property but these are very restricted see:-
link to gov.uk
Another restriction upon the right to roam is close proximity to dwelling places but these restrictions are to protect the privacy of the legal occupiers of dwelling places.
So there you go – if approached by an MOD police person, armed or not armed, tell them where to go, (Back onto MOD property).
This is just Westminster attempting to ignore Scottish Law again. The sovereign people of Scotland own Scotland – not Westminster or the MOD. There is, though, a question of the Coulport road which, (if memory serves), is indeed MOD property so the MOD police could have legal jurisdiction there – but only on the road itself.
When I worked in Rosyth Dockyard in the Yard Services Department we had to work during what were periods when the Yard was closed down for some reason or other. During such times and only once a year, we would be on our way to work and would come upon some MOD Police who would pull up a rope stretched across the road and stop the first bus or private car travelling towards the Dockyard.
This only happened once each year and the reason was for the MOD to continue to be able to claim ownership of that stretch of road. If they had not done so it would have allowed the public to claim it as a Right of Way.
Anyway, I digress. The point is that under Scottish law the MOD, or indeed any Police or security service, has very limited access other than on actual UK government owned property.
This MOD police expansion around the Clyde Base is a try-on and the local council should jump on it hard and tell then to get back behind MOD razor wire.
Richard Leonard at PMQs trying to blame Nicola Sturgeon for mesh implants scandal which happened under Labour’s watch.
@Breeks says: 9 October, 2019 at 2:51 pm:
… On the up side Sarah, Scottish cops might be serving an arrest warrant in Downing St next week…”
No chance – They have no jurisdiction outside Scotland except they are in, “hot pursuit”, (to coin a USAsian term). Scottish police must call upon the services of the English Police to serve warrants or carry out arrests. Just as English police have no jurisdiction in Scotland and must call upon Scottish law officers or Police Scotland for serving English warrants or making arrests.
Not so long ago, if the Scottish or English police were in pursuit of a criminal up/down the M6/M74 and the suspected criminal made it to the Scottish/English border then they had to give up the chase but the usual procedure was to radio ahead and have the other nation’s police set up a read block or to take up the chase.
I have a vague memory that their was a change made and agreement to allow either police service to continue a, “Hot Pursuit”, across the border.
@Elmac says: 9 October, 2019 at 3:23 pm:
” … This is not on. Come on SNP grow a pair and draw a line in the sand.”
Yeah! Let’s all blame the SNP. Sheesh! In the first place the MOD police can have jurisdiction but only if invited to do so by either Police Scotland or perhaps by the local council.
If the locals object it is the local council’s job to object ant to take up the matter with the MOD. Then, and only if the MOD do not get back behind MOD razor wire, it is the Scottish Legal system that should take up the matter with Westminster. Failing that being successful then, and only then, is it a matter for the Scottish Parliament to get involve.
So, Yeah! Right! Let’s all Wingers blame the SNP.
No wonder I cannot be bothered with this blog any more. I’m away back to lurking – if I can even be bothered doing that.
Robert Peffers
I wondered why traffic on Wings was declining – then I read your post. Please lighten up, you are better than that and have a lot to give.
@ Bob Mack – I’m afraid I have no access to the inner hierarchy of the SNP. If I had, there would be no question of bowing to pressure from the trans lobby.
That said, I can understand why conference debates on independence alone may not be a good idea. Independence is, after all, the core political aim of the SNP. It is the SNP’s raison d’etre. Nobody who doesn’t support indepenendene should join the SNP (OK there a few who do).
So I would support avoiding endless conference debates which would amount to little more than:
What do we want?
Independence!
When do we want it?
Now!
@Capella,
I can understNd your reasoning but the object was to discuss a SPECIFIC plan B, and not a general approach. Seems different.
@Robert Peffers,
That story of MOD police was debunked yesterday. Nothing to do with SNP.
Your frustration is making that association rather than the facts.
Perhaps you can join another blog thag also disapproves of Wings. Youd be right at home there.
ps love your historical perspectives.
Outrage by *journalist* as he finds out the FM doesn’t read the Sunday Post and immediately act on whatever it says about a rumour that somebody else told them
Hi Dorothy Devine 1037
No I didn’t miss the referendum
I voted YES in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum
I agree with you that the people of England , Westminster and the media interfered and tried to stop Scottish independence
But the result was not reversed and that’s my point the brexit vote has taken place and brexiters won SNP and others should not be trying to stop brexit
If they wish to reverse brexit and campaign to rejoin the EU fair enough but the winners of that referendum should have their day
What’s New England can outvote Scotland every time in every vote
That is one compelling reason why we need independence
Brexit is just like so many things so many times when Scotland has voted for something completely different to England but because they outnumber us we have to take what they decide , every general election proves that point and yet we have never ever seen the campaigning to reverse those elections have we.
Sorry but I disagree with those who think it’s okay to try and stop brexit
What they should be doing is preparing to campaign for rejoining the EU
@Capella
“Nobody who doesn’t support independence should join the SNP ”
That would be fatal for the chances of the SNP being the majority Goernment, in terms of voters, even maybe a minority one. Take 2011 for instance, if many people who liked what the SNP did from 2007-11 hadn’t voted SNP – about 14% at Indy Ref time – we wouldn’t have had an overall majority SNP Government from 2011 to 2016, and we wouldn’t have had Indy Ref 1.
We might not even have had a minority SNP Government from 2016 to 2021 – even with Greens the majprity isn’t huge, and one Labour MSP became the PO (it was their turn).
And I know you said “join the SNP” as opposed to vote for, but they too can campaign for the SNP on normal issues, run stalls, drop leaflets – and contribute money to the party they support for its policies. They can even be committee and office bearers, and delegates to help party policy. Plus perhaps bring a better understanding of “NO” voters to the SNP.
That was a PPB for the SNP 🙂
Terry callachan @13:11
“I disagree with those who think it’s okay to try and stop brexit”.
Is not the duty of our representatives to act in their constituents’ best interest?
Well, it is absolutely in my best interest to stay in the the EU. So, as far as I am concerned, it is not only OK for my MP to seek to stop brexit, it is precisely what I demand of her.
vlad (not that one) says:
10 October, 2019 at 1:46 pm
Terry callachan @13:11
“I disagree with those who think it’s okay to try and stop brexit”.
Is not the duty of our representatives to act in their constituents’ best interest?
Well, it is absolutely in my best interest to stay in the the EU. So, as far as I am concerned, it is not only OK for my MP to seek to stop brexit, it is precisely what I demand of her.
But Vlad, Brexit is an act of colonial subjugation contrary to International Law, and thus it is unlawful and unconstitutional and represents an intractable breach of the Treaty of Union. Brexit thus ends the Union by breaching the contract. Why would you demand it is stopped?
And if we can stop Brexit by simple virtue of ‘being’ sovereign, then we are also into uncharted territory with Europe, where there is no precedent ever set for our circumstances, but Europe physically has no mechanism to expel a sovereign nation from its institutions, agreements and treaties. If Brexit is so intractable it cannot be realised smoothly, then how much more difficult would it be for Europe to expel a Nation against it’s will?
It doesn’t matter that ‘Scotland’ the Nation doesn’t yet exist in Europe, because even with a formal membership, we habitually live our lives as EU citizens with access and entitlements to EU goods and services. Rather than expelling Scotland, I firmly believe Europe would be legally obliged to negotiate a bespoke membership, maybe even a probationary membership pending formal agreement. If the EU arbitrarily expelled us as a sovereign nation, I think it would open the floodgates on litigation stemming from the injustice, and the EU simply wouldn’t do it. There is no need. We want to be an EU Member State, and they want us to be an EU State.
I say we make absolutely certain Scotland’s sovereign legitimacy and constitution is properly recognised internationally, and with our Scottish Constitutional Backstop fixed in place, we can then be much more relaxed about Brexit occurring, because it won’t include Scotland and will not be to Scotland’s injury.
Can the SNP not fight for staying in the EU and independence at the same time?
I believe independence is not actually dependent on brexit happening or not.
So why can’t there be a very public snp fight for both?
They are very vocal about what will/could go wrong if Brexit happens. Why can’t they be just as vocal about how wrong staying in the UK would be for us and how good it would be for us to be independent?
In my opinion they don’t really push the positives for independence enough. I understand the media are not with us but they should take every opportunity they can to expose the horrors of being a part of the UK.
Tatu3 says:
11 October, 2019 at 3:10 pm
“Can the SNP not fight for staying in the EU and independence at the same time?”
I think their main problem is that they are not gallous enough, overburdened by an abundance of politics geeks.
If they were to declare loudly – “YES We ARE deliberately trying to thwart the democratically expressed wishes of the People of England …
…Serves ye fuckin’ right ya bastards ’cause that’s whit ye hae been daein’ tae us fur the past 300 years!
I would be much more supportive of them than I have been of late, despite believing that in the years to come Global Capitalism will become a bigger threat to the well-being of the Scots and the continued existence of our nation than English Imperialism.