Pay your money, take your choice
Posted on
March 02, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
-
About
Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. (More)
-
Recent Posts
- 08-05
- 07-31
- 07-24
- 07-15
- 07-13
- 07-12
- 07-06
- 07-04
- 07-02
- 06-29
- 06-29
- 06-28
- 06-22
- 06-15
- 06-15
- 06-13
- 06-09
- 06-08
- 05-22
- 05-09
Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
Wee Books
New friends
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EE4alauiS4
Confused? They’re both lying.
And who cares now anyway? It’s all or nothing!
How could you possibly fail to understand that this is Labour offering clarity and stability?
Or spot that it is so unlike the bullying and bluster of the megalomanaic Ale ….
Sorry, I can’t keep this up.
Its all pish.
Vote YES.
We already know that BT is, at a minimum, two faced. Nobody should be surprised that both mouths are dribbling a right load ae slavers.
Hands up all you surprised people!!
holy crap.. is THAT the time?
g’night …
The one thing everyone should remember, is that the Unionists have had since 2007 (when the SNP first won power) to formulate a coherent set of proposals. That is coming up for 7 years ago… but with 7 months to go, there is still nothing concrete from them at all. Zip! Oh sure, we got Calman… some guff about air guns (what!) if I remember correctly! They also had their chance at a Devo-max question on the ballot that they decided they didn’t particularly like.
Who in their sane mind could trust the Unionists to be competent and assured now? Anything they say in the next few months will be nothing more than knee jerky hollow rhetoric.
The biggest problem Labour in Scotland have is Labour themselves. Their Devolution promises to the Scottish people won’t go down well with ‘One Nation’ Labourites and only a few Labour MPs actually back more Devolution. Doesn’t matter if Lamont has the backing of Anwar, wee Dougie and Broon, there are several hundred Labour MPs in Scotland, England and Wales that will never go for more Scottish Devolution and they’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with the Tories and Libs in denying Scotland more Devolution. The promise will be made before the Referendum and nothing will be delivered after a NO vote. Labour betrayed the Scottish people by fixing the ’79 referendum and they’ll betray the Scottish people once again to keep their Westminster jobs promoting their real cause of ‘One Nation’ Labour. They are snakes in the grass, we won’t be fooled again.
Vote YES get everything … Vote NO get nothing!
The leader of the Labour party was quite emphatic that Labour lack the Generic ability to make political decisions in Scotland.
Lets keep reminding them of those words.
Why are they promising anything?
I thought that if you were going to Vote No it was because you didn’t want more powers and wanted to be kept in your place?
Surely BT are miles in the lead, and all is well back at the BT ranch so no need to offer more powers?
If you are going to get more powers by voting No then just go the whole hog and vote Yes.
Whilst I am not, nor never have been, a Labour supporter (although LFI got 20 quid last week from me!)It is disgusting to see a party founded on principal, so deeply at odds with their morals, ethics and purpose.
I hope history shows Brown and Blair for what they truly were and what they did to the UK
sleep tight peeps, they are clutching at straws
sleep tight peeps, they are clutching at straws.
I see that Lord Owen thinks that Labour should save the NHS in England (Wales and NI?). Can someone please remind me exactly how many Labour MP’s have “interests” in private health care.
http://news.uk.msn.com/lord-owen-in-labour-party-donation-2
LOLZ
@ Seasick Dave
You’ve hit on something that always puzzles me about our side there. Why do our side constantly harangue them about what they’re going to offer Scots in the event of a No vote? Why should they have to offer anything at all? Surely it’s clear to all that if we vote No then we’re perfectly happy with the current arrangement?
We need to be asking, in fact demanding, what they are going to offer their fellow Scots after a Yes vote? That is the pertinent question.
Rev, please, please, can we have a caption competition for this photo from the Scotsman article “Labour to back welfare devolution”:
http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.3325090.1393721630!/image/3603456210.jpg_gen/derivatives/articleImgDeriv_628px/3603456210.jpg
Marker Post
Toom Tabard just can’t get the hang of stone, paper and scissors.
In the United Kingdom England was the only country NOT devolved.If you said to England 40% max power,they would riot.
Yet labour Scotand are fighting over giving(sounds like begging–it is) us up to 40%.what a cheek,as the t-shirt says fcuk devolution
Marker post
Private citizen asks for no publicity.
Vote Yes, yes, yes. Do not get shafted again ever. Get out and get everyone converted to a Yes vote. You country needs you. Get out there. Feel better about yourself and your country.
In the event of a No vote, the campaign will continue until there is a Yes vote.
@And who cares now anyway? It’s all or nothing!
Even a NO vote will yield far more for Scotland than the status quo.
We are currently captive in a ‘democracy’ that hasn’t been tested in over 300 years.
Why?
Because we’ve been asleep while our manipulators repeatedly filled their pockets.
Labour are irrelevant, as we are looking at 10 years
Of Tory/ukip rule.cameron has already indicated
That he will dump the hapless liberals ( who are
Going to be wiped out at the next election.
Ukip will support the Tories either formally or informally
With the dismantling of the welfare state.if labour
Voters in Scotland think that their uk pensions
Etc. are safe with a no vote they had better think again
As the state pension age will go to 70 then 75 and will
Be means tested (if you have a small private pension in
Excess of the state pension you will get nothing!).labour voters
In Scotland better have a long hard think about
The prospect of another 10 years of Tory Westminster rule!
The air passenger duty argument made by BA & Aer Lingus is a perfect example of what happens if you devolve accountability minus the authority which is what will happen if Westminster devolves more tax raising powers.
If Scotland abolishes this travellers tax, the block grant will simply be reduced by an equivalent amount.
Westminster points the finger at Scotland & says, you see, you cut taxes and what have you got to show for it, a reduction in the block grant which means that something somewhere has its budget cut.
It’s a Unionist scam to make undecided voters think that Holyrood will have more devolved powers.
It’s like reducing pocket money to a teenager who has unilaterally decided to work less summer work hours to spend more time studying.
gatacca
And just how would they be able to do that then?
Even if and that would be IF, they ever got back into power they’d still require cross party consensus to deliver anything.
You can see ratification being discussed in the Lords now. In amongst the snoring and the rattle of mint imperials on dentures, pulses are jump started long enough for the establishment to return a resounding vote of nae chance.
Mind you its easy to make promises you have no intention of delivering on. What we have had are the remarks of Lang, Brown, Curran, Davison, Sarwar and others that the devolution journey is not just about to stop, but stands a good chance of going into a steady reverse. We’ve also seen one significant power already reclaimed by Westminster. I don’t recall the Scottish electorate being asked for any permissions to have their parliament weakened.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8428-fury-af
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cameron-delivers-pledge-barnett-formula-1924151http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cameron-delivers-pledge-barnett-formula-1924151
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/strong-case-for-scrapping-barnett-formula-1-2833465
Power devolved is power retained.
It appears people are making a choice and not paying their money – From behind the paywall at the Times (could be more BT chaff of course):
BETTER TOGETHER, the cross-party campaign to save the Union, faces a financial crisis after failing to raise even half its £7m funding target.
With 200 days to go till the Scottish referendum, the group led by Alistair Darling says it fears public opinion could swing the nationalists’ way because it cannot match the yes camp’s war chest.
One of the major flaws in the possible Labour offer of more devolution to the Scottish parliament is that it relies entirely on the people of England and Wales voting for Labour in the 2015 UK general election. Where’s the democracy for Scotland in that?
Marker Post caption-
Brown- ” you may kiss the bride “
Seems to me that “North Chief” gets it about right. Labour took another big step yesterday towards dumping any limits on it being anything but an alternative ‘neoliberal’ party dominated by post Thatcherite ideology.
As a UK general election approaches the Mail et al will chib them with more stuff from the deep past and they will most likely lose to the Tories. The “Chief’s” point about UKIP is important. The Tory response to their rise, in the upcoming local/European elections, will be the usual one in English politics – to slide further to the right chasing little Englander, anti european, racist support.
I’m confident that SLAB has already done enough to damage its own support for us to be able to drive home that, eleventh hour, whimperings about more devolution just risk leaving Scotland defeated by a No vote and at the mercy of a vengeful Tory government which tries to ‘out UKIP’ UKIP.
Getting the Yes vote out is not just highly desirable it is entirly vital !
Well, since we’re using wartime analogies this week, here is an apt description of SLAB’s ‘policy’:
SNAFU
@Seasick Dave
Precisely
Undecideds how much more info do you need ?
Positive YES v Nothing, Absolutely nothing but mibees from No = Vote Yes; come on.
Even the state press can’t make out whats going on with Nothing for Scotland, they are no more than a sham. Decades of smear & fear and still nothing to offer.
Pure orwellian double think
Posted this on the previous thread, probably better here, Iain McWhirter on fire in the Sunday Herald. I’d like to get a copy of this to every house in Scotland. 😉
http://archive.is/3COc4
As a life long Independence supporter I would have been quite happy to take devo max.In the past i had never heard of Devo max so when it was put on the table it caught my interest.
Things have changed since then,i have watch with horror how so called Labour supporters have campaigned so negatively against my country.I still remember all there lies and promises in 1979, they even spun the lie back then that good labour supporters who believed in Devolution where Tartan Tories.
Sorry total Independence is the only way forward for me.
Why the hell is everyone suddenly saying “Marker post”?
A friend remarked to me about twenty years ago that Labour had become a single-issue party whose only objective was preserving the Union. It’s looking increasingly like a suicide mission. Excellent!
Rev Stu.
Marker Post – see request at 2.34am.
Now even English press begin understand, that with currency union Osborne and Westminster are playing very risky for rUK game, where rUK is loser and Scotland is winner.
From New Statesman:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/flaw-osbornes-pre-emptive-strike-against-currency-union
In response to Marker Post’s request for a caption competition, I believe. 😉
As the First Minister once said “Labour say one thing in public, and another thing in public.”
Marker post
Anas. johann who slapped yer coupen.
Broon. aye, OK it wis me.
@ alex, I agree. I thought devo max was such an obvious compromise I was surprised that David Cameron ruled it out to run the risk of being the last Prime Minister of the UK. The debate has now changed (with the UK politicians showing their true colours) and devo max is no longer an option for me; power devolved is power retained.
Yet another crystal clear policy stance from Scottish New OneNation Labour.
It seems to be plan A and plan B simultaneously.
The concern always was, and still is, if Cameron is handed his Falklands moment.
He will appeal for unity, play the patriot card, call up reserves, and propose Scotland’s autonomy is laid aside for the time being.
Unless there are adept political compromises to defuse the situation, the conflict in Ukraine might just give Cameron and the enemies of democracy the excuse to lay differences aside.
Whatever happens, stand by for the Ukraine used before the Referendum as a reason flying a union flag is the best of all possible worlds.
Marker Post – Anus says “Well Johann, thank fuck we’ve got Gordon’s safe pair of hands” Johann says “Oh yes Anus thank fuck he is genetically programmed to make political decisions, he is isn’t he?”
comment telegraph reader
impartial anyoldirony • 20 minutes ago
There is no comparison. Scotland has never been an entity; it has effectively been part of what is now the UK for more than 1000 years. Our nation speaks the same language with only slight regional variations.
The European Union is in its infancy. There are scores of languages spoken with no common one. There are several currencies used. The Euro is very new and its very survival is questionable.
Our laws are centuries old as is our system of government. Uk is stable the EU is not.
There will always be small factions with new leaders wanting changes within a nation to achieve temporary advantage over their fellows.
bfh–wtf
If Westminster was even remotely sincere in their blethers they would be offering Scotland the drivers seat and climbing into the back of this UK bus.
We are the better ‘economic’ driver but they only want us as servants to their notions of elitism.
Any ‘offers’ to tempt are things we already have.
How things move on. Few years ago Scottish NHS, Water was regarded by the southern movers and shakers as Luddite when their PFI, water companies were really moving ahead. Just now on BBC1 an English audience is deploring the fact that PFI interest rates for example are precluding reformation of services to cope with changing problems of the elderly and an inability to fund both local and high tec care. Water and sewage in my former stamping ground of Kent will be the next crisis.
The old familiar promises and lies being dusted off for another round.
It seems to be plan A and plan B simultaneously.
JUST THIS.
“If Westminster was even remotely sincere in their blethers they would be offering Scotland the drivers seat and climbing into the back of this UK bus.
We are the better ‘economic’ driver but they only want us as servants to their notions of elitism.
Any ‘offers’ to tempt are things we already have.”
Readers, we had a blissful two or three weeks there, don’t make me start shouting at you about BLOODY PARAGRAPH BREAKS again. It’s gotten noticeably worse in recent days. No excuses whatsoever with the new comment plugin.
Stop quoting ignorant, ill informed Telegraph idiots.
If anyone is interested go to the Telegraph website. No one else wants to be bothered with their Pish. It is just annoying. Why quote a small number of ignorant, arrogant, insignificant Trolls.
Why give them oxygen or publicity?
I agree with gh graham and alt clut.
When oh when is the penny going to drop with
The Scottish electorate,as we are not a “sovereign”
Country without full control of our resources etc.
The devolution “myth”, of increased powers is a “smokescreen”as whatever
“May” be further devolved ( which patently won’t happen
Anyway under Tory/ukip Westminster rule) garage
Given further “Cosy chat” exposure on Marr show this morning.
Would only result in cuts to the block grant (if Barnett even exists under
The next Tory/ukip government.
It is all or nothing on sept. 18th ,if Westminster
Retains power over Scotland after the vote , we will
Never again be given a “legal/Edinburgh agreement” referendum
Again.the “eton lead” Westminster establishment will ensure
This.
Revealed on BBC Radio Scotland’s paper review this morning, “Operation Dambuster”, the unofficial name for the UK government’s onslaught on the Scottish people to scare them into submission last month,was officially called “Operation Chastise”. They reveal themselves in so many ways don’t they?
Great news! Another Scottish great has come out for independence. Welcome on board Katie Morag!
http://archive.is/wWp8H
There is absolutely no way I would trust ANYTHING that ANY of the Unionist parties say. They only have the Union’s interests at heart. Realise that fully, and nothing they ever say will satisfy you. Scotland’s welfare is NOT on their agenda, with false promises they want to STEAL your vote, and hope we fall for their lies.
No matter what they say, they are lying to deceive it is all they know how to do, it is all they have ever done.
When you realise this, nothing they say matters a hoot!.
@ Flower of Scotland
I agree; more posturing from the west.
The Crimea was gifted to Ukraine by Russia as an apology for the crimes of Stalin, no surprise then, that Russia keeps troops there, and is alarmed at events, but the Kremlin ought to allow a government of national unity a chance to show its worth before marshalling troops.
How obscene – the hypocrisy of the west telling Russia not to meddle in the process of renewal of another country.
(Don’t wish to divert topic: the apparently contradictory newspaper headlines on tax raising powers as muddled by Labour are less so than at first sight – all it means is proposals will be watered down to the ineffectual, or delayed, or both. Has that not always been the way of it? It is only more propaganda, a means to divert.)
Readers, we had a blissful two or three weeks there, don’t make me start shouting at you about BLOODY PARAGRAPH BREAKS again. It’s gotten noticeably worse in recent days. No excuses whatsoever with the new comment plugin.
Thank you Rev. it’s been cranking MY Asperger’s up to full pitch!
While I’m at it, can I annoy everyone with another of my pet peeves? The plural of ‘he was’ is ‘they were’ not ‘they where’.
Come on People!
Sunday papers full of scottish labour MPs offering more defo powers.
bizarrely
SNP —wanted devo max on referendum(now ecstatic it isn’t)
LABOUR—didn’t want it on(now praying it was to split the yes camp)
bfh—if YES is over 45% I will be ecstatic,god knows if we win
Marker Post caption:
“Look! Nae swet” – “Now xcuse me while I pat the dugs”
your right crackers
I won’t let trolls wind me up
@Bookie from Hell
If devo-max means “full powers short of independence” it logically follows it means independence.
No country enjoys full powers but doesn’t have independence.
Therefore, no Westminster political party will ever offer full powers short of independence.
Oops sorry Rev can’t type my own name!
Anyone know if the Sheridan/Donahue debate will be available on tinternet?
I only understand Pepsi Max @t this moment in time
@Grouse Beater
Thought this might interest you, Written by Hazel Lawrie in 2012
http://weegiewarbler.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/could-they-or-would-they-manufacture.html
Will you stop calling me troll please.
Hazel, Apols, spelt your last name wrongly.
Lewry.
x sticks Sheridan/Donahue is on top thread
“Anyone know if the Sheridan/Donahue debate will be available on tinternet?”
Live in a couple of minutes:
http://www.irvinebeat.com/index.php/webplayer
Am recording.
@Gerry Parker
Very interesting treatise, Gerry. Much obliged.
Thanks Rev Stu 🙂
@patronsaintsofcats.
More extreme than SNAFU is FUBAR!
Damn, can’t get irvinebeat to play! Are you going to post the recording Stu?
They’re clearly not up for any more devo. Unionists like Labour in Scotland and whoever it is that owns the Hootsman/BBC etc will scrap Holyrood completely if they got the chance. They don’t say though. Its all about bits devolving power to where it so really really matters, Labour run Scottish councils. If No wins and Labour win the next UK election, Milliband wont have an EU referendum and Scotland will still just be an annoying province in this nonsense union and lots bayoneted YES voters.
When Maddox in the Scotsman writes “Any failure to devolve income tax in full … would be seized upon by the SNP as a U-turn by Labour”, he clearly doesn’t mean “in full”. It’s just another Carwyn Jones story, SLAB want the same as WLAB wanted.
This is confirmed later in the story when it says “Scotland accounts for around £4.25bn in income tax raised”. HMRC’s estimates (*not GERS*) said “income tax in full” raised £11bn in Scotland in 2011-12. More spin than story in those words “in full”? Seems so.
And clearly SLAB have no plans to increase the Holyrood share of income tax as they are reported as being stumped by a £750m gap between the £4.25 share of income tax they want to devolve and the £5bn tab for welfare. Increasing the Calman Tax share (either across the board from 10p to 12p, or for higher rates 10p to 20p?) must never have crossed anyone’s mind.
John H.
‘Operation Chastise’ was the actual name given to the bombing raid on the dams in WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise
Here is another blast from the past. I had in my mind that in fact WWI slowed down the Scottish Independence movement somewhat… but maybe the historians can throw some light on this.
http://archive.is/VnUD1
I’m not sure even Labour knows what it wants in regards more devolution. Clearly some are ready to go a long way down the Devo Max route and others are horrified. I wonder what sort of fudge they will opt for in a few weeks.
Of course I can’t imagine Ruthie endorsing any of this and the latest opinion poll in the Guardian doesn’t make for great reading with Labour on 34% Tories on 29% and UKIP on 19%. If Labour don’t get in in 2015 and that is a possibility then any such promises are pie in the sky. A Yes vote gives us all that and more.
UKIP. Voters will return to Tory 2015
labour are doomed
Labour have no chance 2015 it will be at worst for
Tories minority government with ukip support
The Labour Party will have nobody to join
In coalition with as the liberals ( the party of “home rule” ha!ha!)
Will be drubbed
Conclusion is that Scotland on Sunday headlines
On “labour devolution” is completely irrelevant.
The Scottish labour party are in total disarray and will implode at their spring conference.
Pity Sheridan screamed and chopped his words.
Pointless doing that with an audience there voluntarily. And you lose dramatic variation. Outside, where people pass by, yes, you need to shout to arrest their attention.
The trouble with firebrands is, either they burn themselves out early, or end up in the House of Lords, a pillar of the establishment.
Agreed Grouse Beater, Sheridan does need to make that distinction.
Passion is one thing but when he starts bawling in the wrong setting the lights go out and the argument is lost.
Appreciation of your audience is the first tenet of any public performance, you need to adapt your style and rhetoric to suit the mood.
Lamont is a classic example of lazy public speaking, she sticks to a pre written script or diatribe with no room for ad lib. Shows a distinct lack of personality and consideration / respect for her audience.
In saying all that Sheridan is a passionate man with a passionate message and does seem to have trouble holding himself back, he just needs to be more adaptive with his script.
will they wont they
who cares just like the easter bunny we are on a roll