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Pay your money, take your choice

Posted on March 02, 2014 by

This morning’s Scotland on Sunday:

devosos

Well, that seems clear.

Then again, here’s yesterday’s Herald:

devoherald

Now we’re just confused.

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    83 to “Pay your money, take your choice”

    1. Alfresco Dent says:

      Confused? They’re both lying.

      And who cares now anyway? It’s all or nothing!

    2. Claire McNab says:

      How could you possibly fail to understand that this is Labour offering clarity and stability?
      Or spot that it is so unlike the bullying and bluster of the megalomanaic Ale ….

      Sorry, I can’t keep this up.

    3. Seasick Dave says:

      Its all pish.

      Vote YES.

    4. west_lothian_questioner says:

      We already know that BT is, at a minimum, two faced. Nobody should be surprised that both mouths are dribbling a right load ae slavers.

      Hands up all you surprised people!!

    5. west_lothian_questioner says:

      holy crap.. is THAT the time?
      g’night …

    6. Alba4Eva says:

      The one thing everyone should remember, is that the Unionists have had since 2007 (when the SNP first won power) to formulate a coherent set of proposals. That is coming up for 7 years ago… but with 7 months to go, there is still nothing concrete from them at all. Zip! Oh sure, we got Calman… some guff about air guns (what!) if I remember correctly! They also had their chance at a Devo-max question on the ballot that they decided they didn’t particularly like.

      Who in their sane mind could trust the Unionists to be competent and assured now? Anything they say in the next few months will be nothing more than knee jerky hollow rhetoric.

    7. Dcanmore says:

      The biggest problem Labour in Scotland have is Labour themselves. Their Devolution promises to the Scottish people won’t go down well with ‘One Nation’ Labourites and only a few Labour MPs actually back more Devolution. Doesn’t matter if Lamont has the backing of Anwar, wee Dougie and Broon, there are several hundred Labour MPs in Scotland, England and Wales that will never go for more Scottish Devolution and they’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with the Tories and Libs in denying Scotland more Devolution. The promise will be made before the Referendum and nothing will be delivered after a NO vote. Labour betrayed the Scottish people by fixing the ’79 referendum and they’ll betray the Scottish people once again to keep their Westminster jobs promoting their real cause of ‘One Nation’ Labour. They are snakes in the grass, we won’t be fooled again.

      Vote YES get everything … Vote NO get nothing!

    8. Adrian B says:

      The leader of the Labour party was quite emphatic that Labour lack the Generic ability to make political decisions in Scotland.

      Lets keep reminding them of those words.

    9. Seasick Dave says:

      Why are they promising anything?

      I thought that if you were going to Vote No it was because you didn’t want more powers and wanted to be kept in your place?

      Surely BT are miles in the lead, and all is well back at the BT ranch so no need to offer more powers?

      If you are going to get more powers by voting No then just go the whole hog and vote Yes.

    10. David Halley says:

      Whilst I am not, nor never have been, a Labour supporter (although LFI got 20 quid last week from me!)It is disgusting to see a party founded on principal, so deeply at odds with their morals, ethics and purpose.
      I hope history shows Brown and Blair for what they truly were and what they did to the UK

    11. StevieMcb says:

      sleep tight peeps, they are clutching at straws

    12. StevieMcb says:

      sleep tight peeps, they are clutching at straws.

    13. Adrian B says:

      I see that Lord Owen thinks that Labour should save the NHS in England (Wales and NI?). Can someone please remind me exactly how many Labour MP’s have “interests” in private health care.

      http://news.uk.msn.com/lord-owen-in-labour-party-donation-2

      LOLZ

    14. Alfresco Dent says:

      @ Seasick Dave

      You’ve hit on something that always puzzles me about our side there. Why do our side constantly harangue them about what they’re going to offer Scots in the event of a No vote? Why should they have to offer anything at all? Surely it’s clear to all that if we vote No then we’re perfectly happy with the current arrangement?

      We need to be asking, in fact demanding, what they are going to offer their fellow Scots after a Yes vote? That is the pertinent question.

    15. Marker Post says:

      Rev, please, please, can we have a caption competition for this photo from the Scotsman article “Labour to back welfare devolution”:

      http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.3325090.1393721630!/image/3603456210.jpg_gen/derivatives/articleImgDeriv_628px/3603456210.jpg

    16. Seasick Dave says:

      Marker Post

      Toom Tabard just can’t get the hang of stone, paper and scissors.

    17. bookie from hell says:

      In the United Kingdom England was the only country NOT devolved.If you said to England 40% max power,they would riot.

      Yet labour Scotand are fighting over giving(sounds like begging–it is) us up to 40%.what a cheek,as the t-shirt says fcuk devolution

    18. john king says:

      Marker post

      Private citizen asks for no publicity.

    19. Take the High road says:

      Vote Yes, yes, yes. Do not get shafted again ever. Get out and get everyone converted to a Yes vote. You country needs you. Get out there. Feel better about yourself and your country.

      In the event of a No vote, the campaign will continue until there is a Yes vote.

    20. Seoc says:

      @And who cares now anyway? It’s all or nothing!

      Even a NO vote will yield far more for Scotland than the status quo.

      We are currently captive in a ‘democracy’ that hasn’t been tested in over 300 years.
      Why?
      Because we’ve been asleep while our manipulators repeatedly filled their pockets.

    21. North Chiel says:

      Labour are irrelevant, as we are looking at 10 years
      Of Tory/ukip rule.cameron has already indicated
      That he will dump the hapless liberals ( who are
      Going to be wiped out at the next election.
      Ukip will support the Tories either formally or informally
      With the dismantling of the welfare state.if labour
      Voters in Scotland think that their uk pensions
      Etc. are safe with a no vote they had better think again
      As the state pension age will go to 70 then 75 and will
      Be means tested (if you have a small private pension in
      Excess of the state pension you will get nothing!).labour voters
      In Scotland better have a long hard think about
      The prospect of another 10 years of Tory Westminster rule!

    22. G H Graham says:

      The air passenger duty argument made by BA & Aer Lingus is a perfect example of what happens if you devolve accountability minus the authority which is what will happen if Westminster devolves more tax raising powers.

      If Scotland abolishes this travellers tax, the block grant will simply be reduced by an equivalent amount.

      Westminster points the finger at Scotland & says, you see, you cut taxes and what have you got to show for it, a reduction in the block grant which means that something somewhere has its budget cut.

      It’s a Unionist scam to make undecided voters think that Holyrood will have more devolved powers.

      It’s like reducing pocket money to a teenager who has unilaterally decided to work less summer work hours to spend more time studying.

    23. Tattie-bogle says:

      gatacca

    24. Macart says:

      And just how would they be able to do that then?

      Even if and that would be IF, they ever got back into power they’d still require cross party consensus to deliver anything.

      You can see ratification being discussed in the Lords now. In amongst the snoring and the rattle of mint imperials on dentures, pulses are jump started long enough for the establishment to return a resounding vote of nae chance.

      Mind you its easy to make promises you have no intention of delivering on. What we have had are the remarks of Lang, Brown, Curran, Davison, Sarwar and others that the devolution journey is not just about to stop, but stands a good chance of going into a steady reverse. We’ve also seen one significant power already reclaimed by Westminster. I don’t recall the Scottish electorate being asked for any permissions to have their parliament weakened.

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8428-fury-af

      http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cameron-delivers-pledge-barnett-formula-1924151http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cameron-delivers-pledge-barnett-formula-1924151

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/strong-case-for-scrapping-barnett-formula-1-2833465

      Power devolved is power retained.

    25. Iain says:

      It appears people are making a choice and not paying their money – From behind the paywall at the Times (could be more BT chaff of course):

      BETTER TOGETHER, the cross-party campaign to save the Union, faces a financial crisis after failing to raise even half its £7m funding target.
      With 200 days to go till the Scottish referendum, the group led by Alistair Darling says it fears public opinion could swing the nationalists’ way because it cannot match the yes camp’s war chest.

    26. aldo_macb says:

      One of the major flaws in the possible Labour offer of more devolution to the Scottish parliament is that it relies entirely on the people of England and Wales voting for Labour in the 2015 UK general election. Where’s the democracy for Scotland in that?

    27. Joma says:

      Marker Post caption-

      Brown- ” you may kiss the bride “

    28. Alt Clut says:

      Seems to me that “North Chief” gets it about right. Labour took another big step yesterday towards dumping any limits on it being anything but an alternative ‘neoliberal’ party dominated by post Thatcherite ideology.

      As a UK general election approaches the Mail et al will chib them with more stuff from the deep past and they will most likely lose to the Tories. The “Chief’s” point about UKIP is important. The Tory response to their rise, in the upcoming local/European elections, will be the usual one in English politics – to slide further to the right chasing little Englander, anti european, racist support.

      I’m confident that SLAB has already done enough to damage its own support for us to be able to drive home that, eleventh hour, whimperings about more devolution just risk leaving Scotland defeated by a No vote and at the mercy of a vengeful Tory government which tries to ‘out UKIP’ UKIP.

      Getting the Yes vote out is not just highly desirable it is entirly vital !

    29. patronsaintofcats says:

      Well, since we’re using wartime analogies this week, here is an apt description of SLAB’s ‘policy’:

      SNAFU

    30. gordoz says:

      @Seasick Dave

      Precisely

      Undecideds how much more info do you need ?

      Positive YES v Nothing, Absolutely nothing but mibees from No = Vote Yes; come on.

      Even the state press can’t make out whats going on with Nothing for Scotland, they are no more than a sham. Decades of smear & fear and still nothing to offer.

    31. david sharp says:

      Pure orwellian double think

    32. Stuart Black says:

      Posted this on the previous thread, probably better here, Iain McWhirter on fire in the Sunday Herald. I’d like to get a copy of this to every house in Scotland. 😉

      http://archive.is/3COc4

    33. Alex says:

      As a life long Independence supporter I would have been quite happy to take devo max.In the past i had never heard of Devo max so when it was put on the table it caught my interest.

      Things have changed since then,i have watch with horror how so called Labour supporters have campaigned so negatively against my country.I still remember all there lies and promises in 1979, they even spun the lie back then that good labour supporters who believed in Devolution where Tartan Tories.

      Sorry total Independence is the only way forward for me.

    34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Why the hell is everyone suddenly saying “Marker post”?

    35. Vronsky says:

      A friend remarked to me about twenty years ago that Labour had become a single-issue party whose only objective was preserving the Union. It’s looking increasingly like a suicide mission. Excellent!

    36. Joma says:

      Rev Stu.

      Marker Post – see request at 2.34am.

    37. remy2a says:

      Now even English press begin understand, that with currency union Osborne and Westminster are playing very risky for rUK game, where rUK is loser and Scotland is winner.

      From New Statesman:

      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/flaw-osbornes-pre-emptive-strike-against-currency-union

    38. Stuart Black says:

      In response to Marker Post’s request for a caption competition, I believe. 😉

    39. Tamson says:

      As the First Minister once said “Labour say one thing in public, and another thing in public.”

    40. castle hills chavie says:

      Marker post

      Anas. johann who slapped yer coupen.

      Broon. aye, OK it wis me.

    41. Chris says:

      @ alex, I agree. I thought devo max was such an obvious compromise I was surprised that David Cameron ruled it out to run the risk of being the last Prime Minister of the UK. The debate has now changed (with the UK politicians showing their true colours) and devo max is no longer an option for me; power devolved is power retained.

    42. Murray McCallum says:

      Yet another crystal clear policy stance from Scottish New OneNation Labour.

      It seems to be plan A and plan B simultaneously.

    43. The concern always was, and still is, if Cameron is handed his Falklands moment.

      He will appeal for unity, play the patriot card, call up reserves, and propose Scotland’s autonomy is laid aside for the time being.

      Unless there are adept political compromises to defuse the situation, the conflict in Ukraine might just give Cameron and the enemies of democracy the excuse to lay differences aside.

      Whatever happens, stand by for the Ukraine used before the Referendum as a reason flying a union flag is the best of all possible worlds.

    44. Croompenstein says:

      Marker Post – Anus says “Well Johann, thank fuck we’ve got Gordon’s safe pair of hands” Johann says “Oh yes Anus thank fuck he is genetically programmed to make political decisions, he is isn’t he?”

    45. bookie from hell says:

      comment telegraph reader

      impartial anyoldirony • 20 minutes ago

      There is no comparison. Scotland has never been an entity; it has effectively been part of what is now the UK for more than 1000 years. Our nation speaks the same language with only slight regional variations.

      The European Union is in its infancy. There are scores of languages spoken with no common one. There are several currencies used. The Euro is very new and its very survival is questionable.
      Our laws are centuries old as is our system of government. Uk is stable the EU is not.
      There will always be small factions with new leaders wanting changes within a nation to achieve temporary advantage over their fellows.

      bfh–wtf

    46. seoc says:

      If Westminster was even remotely sincere in their blethers they would be offering Scotland the drivers seat and climbing into the back of this UK bus.
      We are the better ‘economic’ driver but they only want us as servants to their notions of elitism.
      Any ‘offers’ to tempt are things we already have.

    47. yerkitbreeks says:

      How things move on. Few years ago Scottish NHS, Water was regarded by the southern movers and shakers as Luddite when their PFI, water companies were really moving ahead. Just now on BBC1 an English audience is deploring the fact that PFI interest rates for example are precluding reformation of services to cope with changing problems of the elderly and an inability to fund both local and high tec care. Water and sewage in my former stamping ground of Kent will be the next crisis.

    48. Appleby says:

      The old familiar promises and lies being dusted off for another round.

    49. Adrian B says:

      It seems to be plan A and plan B simultaneously.

      JUST THIS.

    50. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If Westminster was even remotely sincere in their blethers they would be offering Scotland the drivers seat and climbing into the back of this UK bus.
      We are the better ‘economic’ driver but they only want us as servants to their notions of elitism.
      Any ‘offers’ to tempt are things we already have.”

      Readers, we had a blissful two or three weeks there, don’t make me start shouting at you about BLOODY PARAGRAPH BREAKS again. It’s gotten noticeably worse in recent days. No excuses whatsoever with the new comment plugin.

    51. Crackers Cockrane says:

      Stop quoting ignorant, ill informed Telegraph idiots.

      If anyone is interested go to the Telegraph website. No one else wants to be bothered with their Pish. It is just annoying. Why quote a small number of ignorant, arrogant, insignificant Trolls.

      Why give them oxygen or publicity?

    52. North Chiel says:

      I agree with gh graham and alt clut.

      When oh when is the penny going to drop with
      The Scottish electorate,as we are not a “sovereign”
      Country without full control of our resources etc.

      The devolution “myth”, of increased powers is a “smokescreen”as whatever
      “May” be further devolved ( which patently won’t happen
      Anyway under Tory/ukip Westminster rule) garage
      Given further “Cosy chat” exposure on Marr show this morning.
      Would only result in cuts to the block grant (if Barnett even exists under
      The next Tory/ukip government.

      It is all or nothing on sept. 18th ,if Westminster
      Retains power over Scotland after the vote , we will
      Never again be given a “legal/Edinburgh agreement” referendum
      Again.the “eton lead” Westminster establishment will ensure
      This.

    53. John H. says:

      Revealed on BBC Radio Scotland’s paper review this morning, “Operation Dambuster”, the unofficial name for the UK government’s onslaught on the Scottish people to scare them into submission last month,was officially called “Operation Chastise”. They reveal themselves in so many ways don’t they?

    54. Andrew Morton says:

      Great news! Another Scottish great has come out for independence. Welcome on board Katie Morag!

      http://archive.is/wWp8H

    55. Les Wilson says:

      There is absolutely no way I would trust ANYTHING that ANY of the Unionist parties say. They only have the Union’s interests at heart. Realise that fully, and nothing they ever say will satisfy you. Scotland’s welfare is NOT on their agenda, with false promises they want to STEAL your vote, and hope we fall for their lies.

      No matter what they say, they are lying to deceive it is all they know how to do, it is all they have ever done.
      When you realise this, nothing they say matters a hoot!.

    56. Grouse Beater says:

      @ Flower of Scotland

      I agree; more posturing from the west.

      The Crimea was gifted to Ukraine by Russia as an apology for the crimes of Stalin, no surprise then, that Russia keeps troops there, and is alarmed at events, but the Kremlin ought to allow a government of national unity a chance to show its worth before marshalling troops.

      How obscene – the hypocrisy of the west telling Russia not to meddle in the process of renewal of another country.

      (Don’t wish to divert topic: the apparently contradictory newspaper headlines on tax raising powers as muddled by Labour are less so than at first sight – all it means is proposals will be watered down to the ineffectual, or delayed, or both. Has that not always been the way of it? It is only more propaganda, a means to divert.)

    57. Andrew Morton says:

      Readers, we had a blissful two or three weeks there, don’t make me start shouting at you about BLOODY PARAGRAPH BREAKS again. It’s gotten noticeably worse in recent days. No excuses whatsoever with the new comment plugin.

      Thank you Rev. it’s been cranking MY Asperger’s up to full pitch!

      While I’m at it, can I annoy everyone with another of my pet peeves? The plural of ‘he was’ is ‘they were’ not ‘they where’.

      Come on People!

    58. bookie from hell says:

      Sunday papers full of scottish labour MPs offering more defo powers.

      bizarrely

      SNP —wanted devo max on referendum(now ecstatic it isn’t)
      LABOUR—didn’t want it on(now praying it was to split the yes camp)

      bfh—if YES is over 45% I will be ecstatic,god knows if we win

    59. SquareHaggis says:

      Marker Post caption:

      “Look! Nae swet” – “Now xcuse me while I pat the dugs”

    60. bookie from hell says:

      your right crackers

      I won’t let trolls wind me up

    61. Grouse Beater says:

      @Bookie from Hell

      If devo-max means “full powers short of independence” it logically follows it means independence.

      No country enjoys full powers but doesn’t have independence.

      Therefore, no Westminster political party will ever offer full powers short of independence.

    62. X-Sticks says:

      Oops sorry Rev can’t type my own name!

      Anyone know if the Sheridan/Donahue debate will be available on tinternet?

    63. bookie from hell says:

      I only understand Pepsi Max @t this moment in time

    64. gerry parker says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Thought this might interest you, Written by Hazel Lawrie in 2012
      http://weegiewarbler.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/could-they-or-would-they-manufacture.html

    65. SquareHaggis says:

      Will you stop calling me troll please.

    66. gerry parker says:

      Hazel, Apols, spelt your last name wrongly.

      Lewry.

    67. bookie from hell says:

      x sticks Sheridan/Donahue is on top thread

    68. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Anyone know if the Sheridan/Donahue debate will be available on tinternet?”

      Live in a couple of minutes:

      http://www.irvinebeat.com/index.php/webplayer

      Am recording.

    69. Grouse Beater says:

      @Gerry Parker

      Very interesting treatise, Gerry. Much obliged.

    70. X_Sticks says:

      Thanks Rev Stu 🙂

    71. Robert Kerr says:

      @patronsaintsofcats.

      More extreme than SNAFU is FUBAR!

    72. X_Sticks says:

      Damn, can’t get irvinebeat to play! Are you going to post the recording Stu?

    73. heedtracker says:

      They’re clearly not up for any more devo. Unionists like Labour in Scotland and whoever it is that owns the Hootsman/BBC etc will scrap Holyrood completely if they got the chance. They don’t say though. Its all about bits devolving power to where it so really really matters, Labour run Scottish councils. If No wins and Labour win the next UK election, Milliband wont have an EU referendum and Scotland will still just be an annoying province in this nonsense union and lots bayoneted YES voters.

    74. Angus McLellan says:

      When Maddox in the Scotsman writes “Any failure to devolve income tax in full … would be seized upon by the SNP as a U-turn by Labour”, he clearly doesn’t mean “in full”. It’s just another Carwyn Jones story, SLAB want the same as WLAB wanted.

      This is confirmed later in the story when it says “Scotland accounts for around £4.25bn in income tax raised”. HMRC’s estimates (*not GERS*) said “income tax in full” raised £11bn in Scotland in 2011-12. More spin than story in those words “in full”? Seems so.

      And clearly SLAB have no plans to increase the Holyrood share of income tax as they are reported as being stumped by a £750m gap between the £4.25 share of income tax they want to devolve and the £5bn tab for welfare. Increasing the Calman Tax share (either across the board from 10p to 12p, or for higher rates 10p to 20p?) must never have crossed anyone’s mind.

    75. call me dave says:

      John H.

      ‘Operation Chastise’ was the actual name given to the bombing raid on the dams in WWII.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise

      Here is another blast from the past. I had in my mind that in fact WWI slowed down the Scottish Independence movement somewhat… but maybe the historians can throw some light on this.

      http://archive.is/VnUD1

    76. HandandShrimp says:

      I’m not sure even Labour knows what it wants in regards more devolution. Clearly some are ready to go a long way down the Devo Max route and others are horrified. I wonder what sort of fudge they will opt for in a few weeks.

      Of course I can’t imagine Ruthie endorsing any of this and the latest opinion poll in the Guardian doesn’t make for great reading with Labour on 34% Tories on 29% and UKIP on 19%. If Labour don’t get in in 2015 and that is a possibility then any such promises are pie in the sky. A Yes vote gives us all that and more.

    77. bookie from hell says:

      UKIP. Voters will return to Tory 2015

      labour are doomed

    78. North Chiel says:

      Labour have no chance 2015 it will be at worst for
      Tories minority government with ukip support
      The Labour Party will have nobody to join
      In coalition with as the liberals ( the party of “home rule” ha!ha!)
      Will be drubbed

      Conclusion is that Scotland on Sunday headlines
      On “labour devolution” is completely irrelevant.

    79. jon esquierdo says:

      The Scottish labour party are in total disarray and will implode at their spring conference.

    80. Grouse Beater says:

      Pity Sheridan screamed and chopped his words.

      Pointless doing that with an audience there voluntarily. And you lose dramatic variation. Outside, where people pass by, yes, you need to shout to arrest their attention.

      The trouble with firebrands is, either they burn themselves out early, or end up in the House of Lords, a pillar of the establishment.

    81. SquareHaggis says:

      Agreed Grouse Beater, Sheridan does need to make that distinction.

      Passion is one thing but when he starts bawling in the wrong setting the lights go out and the argument is lost.

      Appreciation of your audience is the first tenet of any public performance, you need to adapt your style and rhetoric to suit the mood.

      Lamont is a classic example of lazy public speaking, she sticks to a pre written script or diatribe with no room for ad lib. Shows a distinct lack of personality and consideration / respect for her audience.

      In saying all that Sheridan is a passionate man with a passionate message and does seem to have trouble holding himself back, he just needs to be more adaptive with his script.

    82. bald eagle says:

      will they wont they

      who cares just like the easter bunny we are on a roll



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