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Wings Over Scotland

Not minding your language

Posted on December 29, 2017 by

In our latest Panelbase poll, as usual we took the opportunity to ask various social-attitudes questions as well as political ones, and some which span both categories. One of the most controversial posts ever on Wings addressed the subject of Gaelic, and having given everyone two-and-a-bit years to calm the hell down we thought we’d see what the Scottish electorate thought.

That’s a pretty tight call. Let’s have a wee delve in the data depths.

Men were marginally in favour of preserving the language with women a little more strongly against, but the first surprise for us was that the young were far keener than the old. The 16-34 age group scored a net 9% positive (44% to 35%), but the over-55s were heavily against spending any public money on it, by 53% to 35%.

Rather more predictably we found that the issue has become heavily politicised, even despite it notionally having cross-party support throughout the parliament. The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act – which mandates stuff like the infamous roadsigns – was actually passed in 2003 by a Labour/Lib Dem administration, and even the Tories were campaigning on a manifesto commitment to promoting Gaelic as recently as 2011.

Nevertheless, Yes voters came down in favour of promoting Gaelic by a hefty 21-point margin (53-32), almost precisely mirrored by No voters opposing it by 23 points (31 to 54). There was also a 14-point net positive from Remain voters, set against a 29-point negative from Leavers.

Voters from the two main Unionist parties were the most heavily anti, by margins of 37 points (Tories) and 14 points (Labour), while the Lib Dems were almost dead-heated at 44-43 in favour, with SNP voters backing the ancient language spoken by around 1% of Scots to the tune of a whopping 30 points.

More and more in Scotland, voters are choosing to politicise even the things that the political parties themselves (mainly) don’t politicise. It’s an interesting and probably not hugely healthy state of affairs. As for our own views on this particular subject, we think ++ KZZZRT ++ TECHNICAL FAILURE ++ PLEASE STAND BY ++

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    293 to “Not minding your language”

    1. Marcia says:


    2. frogesque says:

      Just back from a week near Craobh Haven. Realy beautifull part of Argyle an Bute.

      It would be just as beautiful in any language but for a non Gael the roadsigns add a special charm. Particularly for place names I would like to know more about the language. It’s a shame that English has become so dominant.

    3. handclapping says:

      It benefits us in the same way as Latin benefitted English. It should be part of the curriculum in non Gaelic schools just as the Classics are

    4. Tony Little says:


      Ha! Probably a “wise” technical failure. Interesting responses as always and as you say, it seems that everything has become far too politicised for our common good. For that I blame the negative and biased media (MSM/BBC/STV) who contort very minor issue into some kind of massive anti-SNP/SG “accusation” even the most trivial of points or statistical anomalies. (cf. Jackie Baillie and SNHS for regular examples)

    5. Martin says:

      I have always been ambivalent until recently my niece started a Gaelic school. Frankly the quality of the education far outstrips what I received at her age (I accept other variables may be at play). Also she’s developed a habit of using Gaelic if she wants to slag us off, which is cute. I like the Gaelic.

    6. dakk says:

      Most Yoons will want Gaelic to disappear in Scotland simply because it’s not English and is Scottish.

      End of.

    7. Lisa Corse says:

      What about looking at how much is spent on “preserving “ the English language? Or the difference in the cost between EME and GME?
      Or looking at why Gaelic speaking tax payers don’t seem to deserve the same as English speaking tax payers?
      I am an SNP member as is my native Gaelic speaking daughter and we both agree that the SNP is not doing nearly enough.
      Education alone cannot “preserve” a language. (By the way, it shouldn’t be “preserved” – it should thrive.) We need support for intergenerational and general community transmission.
      What the SNP and all other parties are doing is less than a sticking plaster.
      If we don’t fully support our own language and culture, who will?

    8. auld highlander says:

      Way back in time my mother who was a fluent Gaelic speaker met my old man who had no Gaelic whatsoever and it fizzled out in the family, the only time I heard it spoken was when she went to visit her parents or an aged relative.

      During my early years I felt that it was uncool to speak Gaelic and now some sixty odd years later I wish I had learnt it.

      Same thing happened in herself’s family.

    9. Zeebeving says:

      I remember asking to learn Gaelic at school in the 70’s, but no classes existed. Some time later a series on TV attempted to do it, but in those days I was unable to record programmes, and missed some… so my knowledge of the language still remains very poor.

    10. Giving Goose says:

      In 1984 I knew a man in Lochinver who went to school on the mainland and was punished by the teacher for speaking Gaelic. He was about 40 in 1984.
      The harrassment of Gaelic speakers was deliberate policy, driven by a British Nationalist agenda.
      The language deserves to be preserved and protected.

    11. Grouse Beater says:

      The first thing to be corroded or removed are communities, then comes symbols of community such as tartan, then language is banned, and finally history is rewritten.

      Either protect and nurture our heritage or go live in another country.

    12. Fred says:

      Most of Scotland has Gaelic place-names, commonsense to be able to pronounce them & understand their meaning! Suas Leis a Gaelic!

    13. Ye should hae speired aboot the Scots leid an aw. A think maist Uinionists believe Scots is anelie for Burns’ Nicht.

    14. DaveM says:

      The results aren’t surprising (and neither is the statistically insignificant difference between the views of the whole sample). The older generation are those most wedded to the idea of ‘Britain’ as some sort of homogenous entity, and the least likely in Scotland to have been taught their own nation’s history; so they are going to be unlikely to support Gaelic. The youngest generations have been exposed to more of their own culture (as a matter of policy) as time goes on – undeniably a good thing – so will be more likely to support Gaelic.

      The big issue around Gaelic is not that a ‘mere’ 1% of the population speaks the language – it is that it is still an important part of our culture, and a highly relevant part of the culture in the north, west and islands. We really must try to avoid homogenising the culture across Scotland. If people want to keep Gaelic alive, then it must be allowed to happen. I’d love to learn more than the tiny number of words that I know; the only thing stopping me doing this is myself through lack of time and organisation.

      It’s great that so many of us, whether or not we want to ever learn/use it, value Gaelic and its place in our society.

    15. cearc says:


      ‘It’s a shame that English has become so dominant.,

      It was made illegal (by Westminster) to use gaelic in schools in the 19th.C, that is why english ‘became dominant’. There are still people around who were beaten if they uttered a word of their own language in school.

      As Martin says’,…she’s developed a habit of using Gaelic if she wants to slag us off,’

      However, the british government didn’t think it was cute!

    16. schrodingers cat says:

      recent research has put forward the notion that and ancient form of gaelic was the linga franca of the tin trade ( Cassiteridish) and spread over all of britain and ireland, down the atlantic coast of europe and up the main river routes and into present day france.The out of the west hypothesis (2500-700 bce)

      p celtic, gaullish etc was the language of the iron age which spread from east to the west

      britain begins barry cunliffe

    17. R-Type Grunt says:

      If a nations worth is measured by the quality of it’s people I’m beginning to think Scotland’s not worth saving.

    18. SandyW says:

      Paul Kavanagh (Wee Ginger Dog) writes regular articles on Gaelic (and sometimes on Scots) on his blog posts. He is the most rational and well researched writer/speaker on this topic and argues convincingly on why the language should be preserved and nurtured (basically, if we’re all for preserving ancient buildings, artworks and artefacts, why would we let a most beautiful language die out?). I’d urge everyone to read his articles and decide before taking up an entrenched pro or anti stance on the subject.

      I find, as the poll statistics above seem to support, that those against the use and encouragement of Gaelic are those that are opposed to Scottish self determination. In short, they are attempting an act of cultural imperialism to stamp out a major difference between Scotland and England (different languages) so they can weaken the argument for Scotland being a separate country.

    19. Janet says:

      I was emailing a colleague with a Gaelic name. Fine. Spelt correctly.

      Then I was invited to a meeting with them. Bugger! Thanks to my unionist education, I had to make discreet enquiries beforehand regarding the pronunciation!

      Yes to Gaelic. For all sorts of reasons.

    20. Des says:

      Gàidhlig – cha bhithinn às a h-aonais! Gaelic – wouldn’t be without it!

      Get some now, today, don’t delay.

      Stu is spot on though when he says: “More and more in Scotland, voters are choosing to politicise even the things that the political parties themselves (mainly) don’t politicise. It’s an interesting and probably not hugely healthy state of affairs.”

      Not good for Gaelic to be a political football but there may be no way of going back now.

    21. cearc says:

      Thomas Widmann,

      In someways scots faired worse in that gaelic was at least recognised as a language, whereas speakers of scots were just told to ‘speak properly’ and ‘not use slang’.

    22. winifred mccartney says:

      It is great to see the signs in gaelic and it does create an interest for all of us the more we see it the more we will learn and perhaps even try to learn to speak Gaelic. Free Gaelic lessons at night school?? I think it is important to keep it and make more and more signs if for no other reason than to remind all of us just where we are and how wonderful it is to have a language shared around the Celtic world. We should never let it go and promote it at all times.

    23. Macart says:

      RE Technical difficulties

      I have the same problem every time I get sales phone call. The number of phones I’ve had to replace… tsk. 🙂

    24. Ruby says:

      I wonder if the same question was asked re the Gov spending money on the Arts what the result would be.

      How many people are interested in opera, these weird & wonderful art installations etc?

      Gaelic roads signs are works of art and much more interesting than the horrendous £100,000 ‘Everyman statue’ found outside the Council building in Market Street.

    25. Zen Broom says:

      Shame you did not ask about Scots, spoken by 30% of the population. Suspect the answers would have been similar, but wha kens?

    26. mike cassidy says:


      But it is that time of year.

      For those who didn’t rate ‘Dunkirk’ – and I remember there were a few

      Here’s an 8-minute, silent version.

      The titles are in English rather than Gaelic.

      I blame the SNP.

    27. Abulhaq says:

      Culture IS highly political. Only in the anti-intellectual confines of BritState is it deemed a neutral area bound by some kind of popular non-political consensus.
      This cloud cuckoolandish perception of what is in anglosaxondom utilitarianly categorised as ‘the arts’ or is tied in with media and sport would get short shrift on the European mainland where culture and national education and identity intersect. For example tell the Catalans that their culture ought to be above politics and expect loud voices of incredulity.
      We rather provincial Scots have much to learn. We first must climb out from under the protective shell of anglosaxon Britishness and begin the process of uniting ourselves as a multi-cultural nation. We do need to take a long and close look at what that vile Union has done to us.

    28. Albert Herring says:

      Yessers are pro-stuff, while nawbags are anti-stuff.

      It’s more mindset than politics.

    29. velofello says:

      I find gaelic pleasant to my ear, particularly gaelic singing,must be in the genes. I’ve tried to learn but raising a family, working a career, time just passed by.

      Gaelic should be protected and nurtured.

      And to the over 50s Yoon curmudgeons, you are a sad sad bunch.

    30. Valerie says:

      @SandyW 11.50

      Well said.

      Gaelic is an important issue, and we are way beyond it not being political. Irish Gaelic is practically the whole reason Stormont has been suspended for nearly a year. The DUP will not sanction it being introduced in schools.

      So, if the masters of Britnattery know it sets a people apart, it’s little surprise yoons decry it as wasteful here.

      It had to be outlawed here, along with so much more. Why do Scots want assimilated like the fucking Borg??

      Pleased to see yoons going ballistic at seeing a Police car in Coatbridge with the new bi lingual logo. 🙂

    31. Capella says:

      The extirpation of Gaelic has been a political aim of the British state since before the Treaty of Union. The Statutes of Iona in 1609 attempted to ban it on behalf of James VI after his removal to Westminster.

      The Statutes of Iona, passed in Scotland in 1609, required that Highland Scottish clan chiefs send their heirs to Lowland Scotland to be educated in English-speaking Protestant schools.

      Amongst the provisions of the statutes were:

      The provision and support of Protestant ministers to Highland Parishes;
      The establishment of hostelries;
      The outlawing of beggars;
      The prohibition of traditional hospitality and strong drink;
      The education of chiefs’ heirs in Lowland schools where they “may be found able sufficiently to speik, reid and wryte Englische”
      Limitations on the bearing and use of arms,
      The outlawing of bards and other bearers of the traditional culture
      The prohibition on the protection of fugitives

      In the view of some writers, this enaction was “the first of a succession of measures taken by the Scottish government specifically aimed at the extirpation of the Gaelic language, the destruction of its traditional culture and the suppression of its bearers

    32. Ken500 says:

      Gaelic schools get huge support from parents. They are popular for other subjects. Have a high reputation. The islands have high achievers. Higher than average. There could be other factors.

      Learning a language when kids are young improves other skills. A boast to music and other studies. World famous studies. Exported throughout the world. An unique identification. People come from all over the world to learn the language. Helping local economies. How much does that bring in? The world famous cultural centres in the universities.

      Signs have to be put up in any case. Costs are absorbed as signs are replaced, It is a boast to tourism. £26million with many costs absorbed from a tax raising of £54Billion is not an extravagant sum.

    33. Spout says:

      Suas leis a’ Ghàidhlig.

    34. Bob Mack says:

      Methinks we have elderly who are too unsure about learning a “new ” language considering they would start from scratch.
      They have been speaking English for so long they have become comfortable with it and do not relish the challenge of learning another.

      Mind you, there are characters like Reese Mogg who think we barely speak English at all.

    35. John Dickson says:

      Uill, tha mi airson a bhith a ‘brosnachadh na Gàidhlig. Chan eil mi ga bruidhinn mar a bha mi air mo ghleidheadh anns na naoi bliadhna deug nuair a bha mi a ‘dràibheadh a h-uile càil fhathast. Bu mhath leam a bhith ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig san sgoil seach Frangais, Gearmailtis agus Laideann mar a chaidh a thoirt seachad. Tha mi a ‘dèanamh cinnteach nach eil seo ceart mar a dh’fheumadh mi Google Translate a chleachdadh.

      Well I for one am for promoting the Gaelic. I don’t speak it as I was schooled in the nineteen sixties when te drive was still afoot to anglicise everything. I would have preferred to learn Gaelic in school rather than French, German and Latin as was proffered. My apologoes if any of this is not correct as I had to make use of Google Translate.

    36. Think you have skewed the option,any moral person would want money spent trying to help those condemned by Westminster Austerity,

      would the £26 million not be from the Education and Skills part of the budget,

      don`t think the £26 million would be allocated to alleviate Tory/Labour assault on those in distress and despair,

      option should have been

      `would you prefer the money spent giving parent/parents an extra hour free early learning and childcare per month or save your countries dying language`

      see totally not skewed,

      hope one day the official language of Scotland will not be English but Scots Gaelic,

      a lot of small countries have a national language but also have the ability to use English.

    37. James Sneddon says:

      Great poll and interesting findings. The cringe manifests itself in many ways. Whether it’s not supporting and reclaiming a nation’s right to self determination, reclaiming and recognising gaelic and scots language and culture and the role it plays in the iconography and ‘branding’ of Scotland to ourselves and the world. The cringe and its associated values are a poison culturally, socially, economically and politically to Scotland. It’s a cliche but we have to love ourselves( including all our languages and cultures) before we’ve grown the baws to govern ourselves, halve of us already do but it’s the rear end of the bell curve to convince.

    38. Ken500 says:

      If everything was costed out it could be classed as an investment. The whisky trails etc. Students coming and paying fees and accommodation costs. Music exports all over the world. Supporting a world famous unique identification. Influence on films, programming and books. Outlander etc. The interest in Scottish culture. The 40 million diaspora exploring their ancestry etc. All tied up in the language. Historical documents translated. Even Braveheart one of the most successful films ever. In spite of what some folk think of it and Hollywood run by perverts. No wonder films are rubbish. Wooden celebrity.

      Gaelic has just never died out. Imagine if it did? It is just always there part of Scottish identity. Same as Auld Lang Syne. Identified all around the world at this time and Burns. Part of the culture. Burns was not as boring as Shakespeare. Students could identify with Burns Scottish history is equality interesting. People can relate to it. There is even an equality about it. The four equal estates. Crown, nobles, church and people. Sovereignty lies with the people under Scottish Law. The Entightenment influence the world. Liberty, Fraternity and Equality.

      Shakespeare should maybe be taught in fifth and six year. To be appreciated. Maybe it is now.

    39. KOF says:

      My maternal grandfather was a native Gaelic speaker. He had no english when he went to school. The school insisted that he spoke only english and he was beaten whenever he spoke Gaelic. He was so badly beaten at school that he decided that when he married and had children, then they would learn no Gaelic, only english, so that they would not suffer the way he did. Two weeks before he died he had a stroke which left him bedridden, but still able to speak. However, he spoke and understood only gaelic. The english had left him. My mother was unable to speak to her own father on his death bed, except through an interpreter.

      I will never forgive the “British” state for this, for what they have done to my family, my culture.

      I will dance a dance of joy when Scotland sees her independence regained.

      It is good that the young are more accepting of Gaelic. I hope that in time the sound of Gaelic will be as common and natural as birdsong. … as it once was.

    40. douglas mcgregor says:

      Why does every issue have to be seen in the context of Independence ? If everything becomes contentious and people differ diametrically then it will be a big turn-off for a large part of the Scottish public.

      Causing a rammy over Gaelic language expenditure when it is , as you point out , 0.1 % of the SG budget is self defeating.

      We need things to unite us , not divide us.

    41. crazycat says:

      I’m not at all surprised that younger people are more receptive to/positive about Gàidhlig.

      They’ve grown up at a time of changing attitudes, greater opportunity to learn, and more exposure to the language via radio, television and groups like Runrig and Capercaillie. To the youngest, bilingual road signs will seem normal. (There’s still plenty of scope for improved support, though.)

      When all that is overlain with the tendency for unionists to be older, the correlation is what I would expect.

    42. Artyhetty says:

      Given the fact that Gaelic was banned by the English government, for me that is reason enough to ensure that it is promoted and kept as a living language. Why not, the Welsh language is given much more high profile. You can see a choice to see a UKGov document in Welsh, but never Gaelic.

      It’s a lovely language, you can learn it online, though I find it hard to pronounce words like Soleil! (sun). I might have the wrong spelling for that. Must go look up how to say, it’s freezing and snowing outside!

      I have no problem with people learning it, it’s part of Scotland’s heritage and history and that has been undermined enough as it is. Anyone heard of James Nairn the filmmaker and innovator? Thought not. Did you know that Thomas Telford was Scottish and not from Shropshire? Have you heard of James Hutton and did you know that he basically invented geology and discovered that the earth is billions of years old. Try picking up a book on geology and he might be mentioned somewhere in tiny writing next to a picture of Siccar point, or might be left out completely.

      My point is, if people want to learn Gaelic, then fund and support it. Scotland can do it and reject Tory and red tory nasty and unnessary so called austerity at the same time. Think Trident, and what we are forced to pay towards that heap of hell.

      Let’s see which battles we need to concentrate on though, in 2018. We may need to just concentrate on throwing off the shackles of the so called union as a matter of priority.

    43. Yerkitbreeks says:

      A few years ago an Out of Doors (non Gael) reporter commented that he felt he was seeing the West Coast in black and white while a Gael was seeing it in colour as each name place had a meaning.
      Is 0.1% of a budget too much for this quality of life issue ?

    44. Robert Graham says:

      Oh well it’s not quite as hysterical as the nutters in Northern Ireland Yet , the Unionists there have taken eradication of the Gaelic Language to the extreme,

      Manhole covers installed by Irish Water had Gaelic as well as English inscribed on them , these were subsequently removed and the Gaelic letters were chiselled and Ground off , Now that is bloody twisted and petty .

      The same nutters operate here and would probably do the same things in order to protect the Union and all elements promoting the Union, all deviations will be removed and no assistance will be given to promote Gaelic , even if most place names around Scotland are derived from Gaelic .

    45. Onwards says:

      frogesque says:

      “Just back from a week near Craobh Haven. Realy beautifull part of Argyle an Bute.

      It would be just as beautiful in any language but for a non Gael the roadsigns add a special charm..”

      I remember talking to American tourists who loved the Gaelic signs when they were touring the highlands. They said it was romantic !
      They enjoyed hearing it on the radio and sometimes in real life. Some guy even taught them a few words in a pub.

      It adds to a sense of heritage and uniqueness, and it’s worth trying to preserve for that reason alone. Tourists aren’t visiting Scotland to lie on a beach.
      Many watch the likes of Outlander and they want a bit of scenery, history and culture. If it’s the same as everywhere else, but with worse weather, they won’t return.

      There was a report on the bbc saying Gaelic could be worth over £100m to the economy.

      I don’t know the exact number, but if the survey question stated that research proved Gaelic gave back DOUBLE the tax invested in it, then we all know many unionists would still be against it, merely as a symbol of Scottishness.

    46. David Caledonia says:

      I know a woman who speaks Double Dutch, i think her name is may and she lives somewhere called Downing Street

      Gaelic will never die out, i know a few words, but i would learn it if there where classes near me
      I love the gaelic channel on the digital service and the music especially is terrific

    47. Gary McIlkenny says:

      Just the usual. Old folk and unionists with their Scottish cringe and negativity wanting to keep Scotland down. Predictable and depressing.

    48. Thepnr says:

      The more visible Gaelic became then the more it would be accepted and understood as an important part of Scots heritage. Signs are one small way of getting it more noticed and accepted.

      Though to become a true feature of a modern Scotland it would have to be taught in schools where it would really make a difference.

      Some interesting statistics on the use of Catalan both spoken and written since it became the official “proper to Catalonia” language in 1979.

      As a result of the ongoing linguistic policies favouring Catalan, implemented in various degrees by the autonomous government during the last 20 years, knowledge of Catalan has advanced significantly in all these areas, with the ability to write it having experienced the most pronounced increase, from 31.6% of the population in 1986 to 49.8% in 2001.

      By age groups, those between 10 and 29 have the highest level of Catalan-language literacy (e.g., 98.2% aged 10–14 understand it, and 85.2% can write it); this is attributed to these individuals having received their education in Catalan.

    49. Az says:

      A couple of years ago Paisley played host to the MOD and the Spree similtaneously. I got on a bus to Partick which was surprisingly busy for early evening. I heard another language being spoken which is of course not unusual – it’s just that in Paisley/Glasgow it’s usually a continental language and often something like Polish (though you do hear most of them).

      It was only after a minute or two it dawned on me that ALL conversation on this bus was in Gaelic. That was really cool in my view. That’s why I hate when people describe it as “dead”, because it was very much alive on that bus. I only felt a bit cheated in some way being unable to understand a word of it (except ‘agus’) and yet I’m no monoglot – I can speak French pretty well at conversational level.

    50. Dal Riata says:

      I remember having a massive fall-out with Stu within that “one of the most controversial posts ever”. I left Wings in a huge huff for months afterwards. But, hey-ho, here we are again, happy as can be!

      Being a fluent speaker of Scottish Gaelic who speaks it at home, obviously I’m very pro all initiatives to promote the language.

      Without it, I wouldn’t have known another culture – a true Scottish culture – filled with music, dance song, story (bards) and poetry.

      And you know, none of it is anti-English in story or in song. Surprising, perhaps, considering all the effort put in by the English through the years to eradicate the language and the heinous things they did to a huge number of Scottish people who spoke Gaelic as their mother-tongue.

      By the way, BBC Caesar! does an excellent current affairs programme on political, social and cultural issues throughout Europe – something the mainstream BBC DOES NOT do.

      Personally, I’d like to see Gaelic being made a compulsory subject in school, at least in primary – done in a fun way for the kids through music and games – to get some basics of the language.

      Even minor bi-lingualism has been shown to improve learning ability of other subjects, so that would be another definite plus.

    51. panda paws says:

      I don’t speak a word of Gaelic but I wish I did and I FULLY support any attempts to ensure the language not only survives but thrives.

      Re DUP and Gaelic Lesley Riddoch did a very interesting series on BBC Norn Ireland covering language and cultural links with Scotland. In NI Gaelic is thought of as a Catholic language which is why DUP is so firmly against it. It must have blown the DUP’s tiny minds when she went to the Hebrides and filmed a Wee Free service entirely in Gaelic!!

      BTW she also said that she wanted to return to Belfast when the family moved to Glasgow in the 1970s as she found Glasgow too violent!!!

    52. Dan Huil says:

      Keep Gaelic alive and well. To hell with the Scottish Cringe.

    53. BSA says:

      Opposition to Gaelic promotion, especially on the grounds of the marginal cost, is probably the most small minded manifestation of Scottish self loathing. I doubt if the results indicate any direct politicisation of the issue ; they just reflect the demographics which are confident and tolerant of diversity and those which are not, though its probably no surprise that these align broadly with ‘Yes’ and ‘No’.

    54. Fred says:

      People who want to know the price of everything know the value of fuck-all!

    55. cearc says:


      Instead of showing the anglisied spelling of the place name and gaelic, I think they should show the correct (gaelic) place name and an english translation.

    56. David Smith says:

      To be perfectly honest, I wish I spoke any language OTHER than English. I am far too embarrassed by it’s assocation with the most arrogant, ignorant and violent nations on this planet.
      I dream of a day when the language fades from the first position of tongues spoken in Scotland at least.

    57. David Smith says:

      And by the way; well said, Fred!

    58. Derick fae Yell says:

      Yerkitbreeks says:
      29 December, 2017 at 12:56 pm
      ” (non Gael) reporter commented that he felt he was seeing the West Coast in black and white while a Gael was seeing it in colour as each name place had a meaning.”

      Very much so. But not just the West Coast. Just yesterday we had a fine snowy walk up the hill Tomatin, above Kilsyth, looking south to Croy,and east to Darroch hill. Gaelic names all, in Central Scotland.

      Tomatin – hill of the juniper bush
      Darroch hill – oak hill
      Kilsyth – Church of grass
      Croy – hard!

    59. CameronB Brodie says:

      Definately a whiff of ideological antipathy towards Scotland and all things Scottish. What a surprise?

      Failing to protect Scotland’s cultural heritage and intellectual property is bad, mky. All ethnic cultures are of equal value and should be respected as such, for the good of humanity, mky.

      Council of Europe 2005
      Framework Convention on the Value of Cultural Heritage for Society

      “(…) a group of resources inherited from the past which people identify, independently of ownership, as a reflection and expression of their constantly evolving values, beliefs, knowledge and traditions (…)” (article 2(a)).

    60. Kate McLaren says:

      As a (non-fluent) Gaelic speaker I find it quite amusing when people say the road signs and so on are “so romantic”. Er, it’s a language. It’s our language. We call places by their Gaelic names because those are their names. Is it equally “romantic” to see Sevilla rather than Seville, Firenze rather than Florence? Part of the problem is the romanticisation of Gaelic. It’s as if people are trying to turn it into a tourist attraction rather than…a language. Suas leis a’ Ghàidhlig, certainly, but could we treat it as Wales has treated Welsh, rather than a relic from the “romantic” past?

    61. Gordon McRobert says:

      The language has been undermined for centuries. I can’t imagine that Wings would join those who undermine indigenous languages in other countries but he is happy to join those who continue to undermine Gaelic in his own country today. I assume because he doesn’t identify with the language and he is from Scotland that he doesn’t see it as in any way important.

      My own view of this website is that it is excellent at what it does – look at what the unionist press and politicians do and say and hold them to account. The writing is an excellent and well worth subscribing to.

      Bringin up Gaelic for no other reason than to undermine it amongst its supporters is a snide move by an arrogant human being who doesn’t like to be challenged on his own opinions.

    62. Ruby says:

      What is the argument for spending money on learning modern languages like French, German & Spanish?

      Once all the computerised translation programs have been perfected there will be no need for these modern languages for business purposes.

      Learning a modern European language seems about as useful as learning analogue photography.

      The sad truth is that most of the money spend on teaching modern languages is a total waste as the vast majority of people are hard pushed to even say ‘Bonjour’

    63. Socrates MacSporran says:

      A rugby reporter friend of mine, sadly taken far-too-young, was the son of Gaelic-speaking parents, so, he was himself fluent in the language.

      When BBC Caesar! started covering the PRO12 (as it was then) games in Gaelic, he asked Hugh Dan McLennan, the commentator, for a glossary of the Gaelic terms for the technical words in rugby: scrum stand-off, wing threequarter etc. Which he took home to his parents.

      They were most impressed by the thought which had gone into translating the terms into Gaelic, rather than simply using the English word. The term for stand-off, for instance, is based on the Gaelic word for “hinge”, which is appropriate. When that sort of work is being done, no language will die.

      As an Ayrshireman myself, and therefore a Burns fan, I would like to see some of the same encouragement given to Lowland Scots,Lallans – call it what you like.

    64. Ruby says:

      Is it equally “romantic” to see Sevilla rather than Seville, Firenze rather than Florence

      I do think a lot of things sound more romantic in a foreign language.

      cul-de-sac is certainly more ‘romantic’ than ‘the arse of a bag’

    65. Breeks says:

      The first time I ever heard a Gaelic choir / congregation singing Psalms, it was nothing like Capercaillie vocals I was kind of aware of, and I actually thought I was listening to African music with a hint of Islamic chanting which would not have sounded out of place in Zulu the movie, and yet at the same time, there were tones of North American Indian chants in it too. It was something unequivocally ethnic, but you just couldn’t place it. A wee chapel in the outer Hebrides??? Get away!

      It really made hairs on the back of my neck stand up that something so intensely rich in terms of raw, original culture was something still living and indigenous to Scotland.

      I don’t speak Gaelic, wish I did to access it so much more than I can, but while I like Capercaillie, and similar highly polished and well produced modern music which you might be forgiven for pigeon-holing as Gaelic folk music, this footage I watched of the psalm singing was raw and unfiltered, but there was something tremendously powerful about it too.

      At the same time, as a non-Highlander, I can also respect that the Gaelic language, Gaelic culture and attitudes, the kilt, tartan and clan structure that has become synonymous with Scotland doesn’t fit my shoulders as well as it might, and there seems to be a great void there between the “Scottishness” rooted in Gaelic culture and the Anglicised Britishness which didn’t want me to learn Scottish history. I’m neither a Gael, nor a Britisher, so where do my own Scottish markers have their origins? Auld Scots rolls off the tongue easily enough by way of tidy explanation, but what exactly is Auld Scots beyond a convenient “catch all” explanation?

      It’s a difficult issue to resolve. Would I like to see every Scot at least capable of speaking a little Gaelic? Yes. Absolutely. There’s no harm in it. I feel the same way about Speaking French, or German, or Spanish, Chinese whatever… the knowledge does nothing but broaden your horizons and enrich your life. Just so with Gaelic.

      The problem is not I think merely a question of preserving the language, but somehow preserving and sustaining, and yet modernising the Gaelic culture to which the Gaelic language is only the key. Saving the key, but losing everything else is worth very little as an exercise, but an artefact is more valuable if it’s living and able to renew itself.

      But save a big chapter or two in the story of Scotland’s cultural renaissance post Independence for the often ignored “Auld Scots Non Gaelic” misfits like me. I don’t quite know the ingredients of myself.

    66. Liz g says:

      One of the saddest things about those results is the age demographic!

      Apparently the very group who would benefit most from learning a new language is the elderly.
      It’s ment to be giving the brain a bit of a workout,and help to row back those senior moments.
      Even if it didn’t really it’s likely no going to do any harm.
      And could open up a whole new world of music as well!

      Putting money into keeping our pensioners mentally agile could turn out to a saving in the long run?
      As to which language Holyrood should be supporting to this end…..why choose a foreign one?
      Its such a wee shame that they are the very group that are the most resistant to the idea.

    67. starlaw says:

      I have in my Music collection a version of The Iona Boat Song sung by a female singer accompanied by a flute. The song is in Gaelic and a beautiful haunting melody which sounds like the sea. I have no Idea who the singer is but its an oldie.
      At the South Uist Highland Games years ago I saw two young boys, about three or four, they were fighting over a kite and were bawling at each other in Gaelic….Magic
      This Language should be preserved at all cost, Westminster tried its best to kill it off…. a good reason as any for keeping it safe.

    68. gus1940 says:

      As I mentioned earlier on another article I was forced in the 50s to spend countless hours studying Shakespeare’s plays and feel that any resultant benefit has been extremely minimal.

      Given that £26Million is relatively a drop in the ocean re The Scottish Budget how about cutting back on the Shakespeare stuff by say 50% and allocate the savings which must be a damn sight more than £26Million to the teaching of Gaelic.

      Personally I would cut the Shakepeare stuff completely but can just imagine the outrage that would break out in our Colonialist rulers and their tame media fan club at the thought of suppressing what they would call UK culture.

    69. Les Wilson says:

      If we want to show ourselves as we are as a nation, then both Gaelic and english should be taught in schools, rather than simply english. Of course the english would not want it or our proud but’s either, as someone else pointed out, just because it ain’t english.

      We should regain pride in our heritage and Gaelic should be a part
      of that, and for the reason the “union” wants to kill it of.

    70. SeanW92 says:

      When my great gran passed away my great uncle Stephen sang a Gaelic song at her funeral as she had sent him to join a Gaelic Choir as a boy. I had never heard Gaelic music before this and it was beautiful, it’s such a shame that it isn’t more commonly known.

      When I was in high school there was a Gaelic class which only ever had about 4 or 5 people in it, I was never given the opportunity to join, I assume this is because I had already begun learning French in primary school.

    71. Les Wilson says:

      From the Rev’s twitter account, it sounds good!

      Wings Over Scotland
      Looks like we’re going to be ending 2017 on an absolute *belter* of a scoop, readers. Stay tuned, won’t you?

    72. CameronB Brodie says:

      The One Nation ideology that is at the heart of British nationalism, has really done a number on the Scottish identity. Research indicates that protecting cultural heritage is generally perceived as a good thing. Not in Scotland though, where any perception of difference from British i.e. English culture, is to be rejected as unworthy. That’s three centuries of cultural imperialism that’s done that. What a nation of cringing supplicants.

    73. Muscleguy says:

      You have it correct with the old documents. Why leave them just to precariously funded academics? And I say that as a precariously funded academic but us scientists are far more fulsomely funded than history is.

      I understand we lost Pictish because when the Kingdom of Caesar! was established the Gaelic was adopted as the lingua franca as it was a trade language up and down the Atlantic coasts as far down as Gallicia in Spain.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      BBC Caesar! make a much better job of Scottish programming than BBC Scotland. As usual we will be watching their Hogmanay ceilidh.

      Gaelic matters on all sorts of levels. It’s one of the many things which make Scotland individual and different. In a small part it defines us as a nation.

      Politically, Yoons want to suppress everything which detracts from their Greater England Project. Anything which reinforces Scotland as unique is a threat to their world view.

    75. Thepnr says:

      Had another look at the table and the three groups most opposed to spending any money at all in raising awareness of Gaelic (and consequently Scottish culture) are the Tories at 63%, Leave voters at 58% and No voters at 54%.

      That alone encourages me to support the promotion of the Gaelic language if it sticks in their craw! The cringe wasn’t born overnight but over decades and centuries of English rule.

      Cast off the cringe No voters and take pride in our wee country!

    76. Davo says:

      I took night classes in Gaelic and really enjoyed it. I used to watch BBC Caesar! but I can’t anymore as I refuse to pay the BBC tax. It’s a subtle way for Westminster to keep the language down.

    77. Capella says:

      Opposition to Gaelic started long before Westminster got involved. It was seen as Irish, therefore Catholic, therefore uncivilised and its speakers barbaric. The later Stuart kings wanted it eradicated along with the challenge to their authority which was Gaelic culture.

      Of course, the Westminster which invited William of Orange to be king was more than happy to provide the troops to carry out the pacification of the clans.

      Maybe the addition of “which football team do you support ?” would have produced an interesting divide in opinion.

    78. Ruby says:


      Just out of interest what songs were you taught at school?

      All the songs I remember being taught were Scottish songs a lot of them in Gaelic. We didn’t learn ‘The lass of Richmond Hill’ or anything like that.

      I did live in an area where a lot of people spoke Gaelic. I also went on my holidays to a part of Scotland where everyone spoke Gaelic even the dogs.

      As I was quite scared of dogs so I quickly learned to say ‘Go home!’ in Gaelic to stop these Gaelic speaking dogs from chasing me on my bike.

      I loved it when I was being introduced to Gaelic speakers as I got my full title.
      My christian name, my mothers name & my grandfathers name & nick name. All in Gaelic.

    79. Simon Curran says:

      I remember David Mitchell (the comic,not ex Rangers forward) slagging off Gaelic and saying it wasn’t worth supporting. Came across as narrow minded and ignorant of political reasons why Gaelic had declined. Gaelic would be safer in an independent Scotland, unionists as a whole prefer English dominated cultural imperialism.

    80. jdenham says:

      This old lassie passed the old ’11+’ with flying colours, and was made to study Latin. This has in all the preceding years helped me with English language, a fact I can’t deny, but now, fast forward 60 years of living and learning, I so wish I was fluent in my ‘mother tongue’. Such regret, although I do tell my small grandchildren that their grandmother was indeed a Celtic Princess in a former life. This doesn’t quite compare with Santa Clause. Must try harder!

    81. galamcennalath says:

      There are far more living languages across Europe than most people think. Look at the European parts of this ….

      … see where Gaelic and Scots fit in.

      The green boxes are living. What an amazing tapestry of living culture!

      English, Scots, and Frisian are part of the same branch.

      First five numbers in Frisian … ien, twa, trije, fjouwer, fiif …. are the same as Scots.

      All our languages matter and must be kept alive.

    82. Ruby says:

      SeanW92 says:
      I had never heard Gaelic music before this and it was beautiful, it’s such a shame that it isn’t more commonly known.

      Ruby replies

      I find that quite surprising!
      I heard Gaelic music all the time as a child.

    83. Lenny Hartley says:

      We got Gaelic at Primary although it was mainly singing, but now and again we would get a wee bit, a neighbour was fluent so she used to help me, I remember rebelling when I went to secondary and refusing to take German and French. So much so that the teachers just gave up,on me and let me do what I wanted in foreign language classes. I only had a smattering , and went to night Skool in Aberdeen uni back in the ‘s but was too thick to pick it up again.
      Btw don’t know if you have seen the rev’s twitter, saying there is a belter of an exclusive coming up and stayed tuned !!

    84. Westcoaster says:

      We were belted in primary school in the early – mid 60s for speaking Scots. Throughout school, speaking Scots was actively discouraged and anyone daring to use it was told to stop using slang.
      The context for this was that we were taught considerably more about English history than we were about our own history.
      Having said that a classmate of mine was belted in 3rd or 4th year for saying he hadn’t gone to mass on the previous Sunday when selected by the teacher (later Headteacher) to say what the sermon had been about.

    85. Peter A Bell says:

      “…the ancient language spoken by around 1% of Scots…”

      That 1% is deceptive if not pejorative. The choice is actually binary. Gaelic is either alive, or dead. so it’s not money being spent for the benefit of 1% of the population. It’s money being spent for 100% of a language.

      The road signs thing is also a nonsense. These have to be replaced from time to time anyway. So the additional cost is, not that of an entire road sign, but the cost of the wee bit of extra paint and sign-writing involved.

      It would probably be possible to put a price on the time and materials. It’s less easy to quantify in monetary terms the extent to which Scotland would be diminished by the loss of an entire language.

    86. Clootie says:

      …same old debate.

      It is down to 1percent BECAUSE of neglect and a campaign to destroy Scottish culture.
      The level spoken should not be used as an arguement to kill it off but instead to highlight the need to save it.

    87. louis.b.argyll says:

      Frogesque..above, 2nd comment.

      That’s not how you spell ‘ Argyll ‘…

    88. Fred says:

      Gaelic probably had the edge on Pictish as Christianity spoke Gaelic. The same question on Gaelic could be used anent Music, History or Art & get a similar answer.

    89. schrodingers cat says:

      Muscleguy says:

      I understand we lost Pictish because when the Kingdom of Caesar! was established the Gaelic was adopted as the lingua franca as it was a trade language up and down the Atlantic coasts as far down as Gallicia in Spain.


      recent research puts gaelic as the language of western europe, including the picts.

      p celtic did come into britain, no question, about 500bce but while brithonic/cumbric were p celtic languages they share far more vocabulary with gaelic than gaulish. better to view the difference as continental and insular celtic

      the traditional historical time line for the introduction of gaelic into pictland by the dalriadans is too short.

      kenneth macAlpine didnt pitch up at forteviot until 823ce, then spent the rest of his life subduing fife (venicones, cu sidh, dogheads etc). the idea that he and his descendents went about (each supposidly with a copy of the irish book of invasions) renaming everywhere after irish pagan gods (earn, atholl, banff, mannan etc) isnt tenable

    90. Tinto Chiel says:

      Encouraged by the positivity (and knowledge) on display in this thread.

      As Fred said, the Lowlands are full of Gaelic place-names because the language was spoken extensively there for centuries. Indeed the last official speaker of Carrick Gaelic, Margaret McMurray, died when Burns was an infant and there may well have been others later on. This is an inconvenient fact for One Nation Britnats.

      Gaelic and Scots are not a binary choice: we are lucky to have two fascinating native languages in our country.

      Paul Kavanagh tells of a Twitter spat with a Yoon Frother about bilingual train station signs who disputed his correct view that Gaelic was a Lowland language too.

      “Where do you think the names Dalmarnock and Rutherglen came from then?” he enquired gently.

      “Scotrail,” quoth she.


    91. David McCann says:

      I remember when in school (not yesterday!) I chose French over Gaelic, and have regretted it ever since.

    92. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      time line for the introduction of gaelic into pictland by the dalriadans is too short

      One theory (I will try and find a link) is that in Pictland the ordinary people spoke Gaelic and had done for centuries, while the ruling class spoke P Celtic. That ruling class had been displaced from further south and had taken over Pictland. That situation, where a warrior nobility invades and takes over an indigenous population, is historically common.

      That would explain why Pictish died so easily and quickly. Gaelic was already there among the ordinary folk.

    93. schrodingers cat says:


      thats a very probable senario.

      interesting new info from prof fraser,

      Crit —Cruithne, is not what the scots called the picts, it is how the irish annals refer to both the picts and the dalriadan scots

      p celtic invasions would have rendered this as
      Pryd–as in prydain

      and romanisation further changed this into Brit

    94. Shinty says:

      I’ve been learning Gaelic because I’m mortified that I cannot pronounce many of Scotland’s place names, mountains etc.

      There are many ways to learn, with support groups who meet up for conversation skills. I also believe there is now a phone app. to help the young ones (& old yins) with pronunciation.

    95. Colin Alexander says:

      Interesting hypothesis about ruling elites changing but things staying the same for the general population.

      Makes me think of the SNP displacing Scottish Labour as the ruling elite in Scotland but, things changing very little.

      A token gesture here, a token gesture there.

      Of course, I have to say people point out in the SNP’s defence, that that’s the whole reason for devolution.

    96. mr thms says:

      Taking the inititiative…

      “It’s Christmas! Schoolchildren release Gaelic festive single”

    97. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Two thoughts:

      Firstly, it’s only those whose own cultural identity is weak and insecure who feel “threatened” by the mere existence of another language, even one as traditional to Scotland as peat and heather. So it’s hardly surprising that it’s the likes of hardline Unionists and Leavers who are most antipathetic. An inability to tolerate any kind of diversity, since it would confront their insecurity. Just another manifestation of The Cringe.

      Secondly, the support for Gaelic among SNP voters gives the soundest possible refutation of the BritNat slander that the SNP “care nothing for the periphery and care only about the central belt”. It would seem that the truth is precisely the opposite!

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      Colin Alexander
      Do you live in Scotland? At present, things can only change within the parameters defined by Westminster, but there is an ongoing change in the culture of governance, if you care to look. Which other party can enable the conditions needed for Scots to regain our sovereignty? Are you hinting at UDI again? If so, on who’s authority would UDI be implemented?

    99. Breastplate says:

      Gaelic as a language is important to the campaign of independence for Scotland, how many speak it is not so important.
      I believe Gaelic stripped from Scotland diminishes our country and promotes assimilation and absorption by a Greater England.

    100. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 16:08,

      ie. that it’s the BritNats who really want to impose stifling monotone central control (from London, even), and SNP supporters who truly care most about the periphery.

    101. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re P and Q Gaelic. Back in the Eighties one of my friends worked for a French drilling company in the North Sea, he spoke French, one of his colleagues on the drill floor was a Breton who didn’t speak English, he announced that during his two weeks off he was going to the Western Isles. When he returned my mate asked him how he got on communicating with the locals as he didnt speak English, he replied I spoke my Language (Breton) and they spoke theirs, we could understand each other.

      So to a fluent speaker there does not seem to be any impediment to communicating with the other
      Type of Gaelic. Probably not much worse than a Doric Speaker talking to a Yank!!!

    102. Highland Wifie says:

      I too was given a “good” education – Latin, Shakespeare, Keats, Yeats etc etc and by a process of osmosis learned which language, history and cultural basics were required to “get on”.
      Talking proper English of course. I spent my whole life adapting to these expected norms.
      I remember learning all about Alfred and the burnt cakes, the English Civil War and the Wars of the Roses. No Scottish songs just Lavender’s Blue Dilly Dilly!
      Now I just feel sick to my stomach at the thought of it all. The extent to which I allowed myself to be moulded into someone British.

      Moving to the Highlands in the late 70s was a revelation and gave me a new perspective on Scottish culture. In the forty years since I have come to terms with my multiple identities but would now happily rid myself of the British one. I am angry at the cultural vandalism wrought on my country and looking back I wonder how close we came to losing it over that period.
      I tried to learn Gaelic with Can Seo in 1979 but gave up. I should maybe have another go.

      My son’s American in-laws are so much more connected to their Scottish roots, presumably because they kept them alive after emigration and didn’t suffer the drip drip of UK propaganda all their lives.

    103. Legerwood says:

      Perhaps interesting to note that the only programme on any of the terrestrial TV channels to cover anything European is Eorpa which is, of course, in Gaelic.

    104. schrodingers cat says:

      that p celtic gained a foot hold in sothern scotland is beyond doubt, and maybe it was limited to aristocrats in pictland but frequency analysis of cumbric/brithonic gaelic and gaulish shows that gaulish and germanic share 60% vocabulary whereas gaelic/brithonic and germanic only share 30% vocabulary. gaelic split from germanic/gaulish at least 1000 years before gaulish split from germanic.

      the other point being made is brithonic is far closer to gaelic than it is to gaulish

      there is no genetic residue showing any P celtic invasion into britan in the iron age but the p celtic influence and numerous p celtic tribe names, eg parisii, epidii, damnonia/dumnonia etc shows some for of contenental influence, possibly trade in iron or aristocratic intermarriage

      the upshot is, in gaelic, we have the survival of a bronze age language, perhaps the oldest in europe.

      worth looking after

    105. frogesque says:

      @louis b. argyll 3.17

      My apologies, I stand corrected lol.

      Just to clarify when I used the word ‘charm’
      Wasn’t meant to be Patronising, rather that Gaelic place names are very descriptive and I agree with the comment about seeing in black and white whereas a Gael will be seeing the names in full technicolour and, probably with surround sound as well.

    106. galamcennalath says:

      We tend to think of the Hebrides as the centre of Gaelic speaking.

      Most place names in the Hebrides are Norse and those which are Gaelic appear to date post Norse. Very few Gaelic place names are pre Norse. Conclusion – at the peak of Norse settlement, Gaelic was extinguished from the Hebrides. It returned only with demise of Norse rule.

    107. wull2 says:

      Why does one of the Wingers fluent speaker of Scottish Gaelic not start a 10 minute weekly course on YouTube to teach us all Scottish Gaelic, A basic level with the correct pronation in Scottish Gaelic. Starting with YES.

    108. Él Cruden says:

      I’d like gaelic to be more widely available at schools in Scotland, from quite young too. Yeah, other European languages might be more ‘useful’ [read remunerative you capitalist pigdogs] but a) learning *any* language young helps learning any *additional* language immeasurably so b), if there’s no harm in it, why not let kids learn a little bit of another language from the country they’re growing up in which might also open elements of the country and its history, culture and literature up to them?

      Nevertheless, I’m personally of the belief that languages, and their persistence, are down to their being spoken by their speakers.

      My gran gave up her native irish gaelic: “it was an old person’s language!” She wasn’t actively dissuaded from using it by some Franco-style homogenizing regime. Now it could well be argued that education in recently post-imperial rural Ireland was never going to quickly turn around a recently decolonized people’s attitudes towards irish gaelic – a point I raised with her. I was, quite rightly, treated to the mildly disgusted grimace of the patronzied in response.

      Still…my auto-question to anyone really frothing against gaelic in Scotland is ‘would you say the same thing about nahuatl in Mexico?’ to which the inevitable responses are either something about that being irrelevant or about the relative awfulness of both language’s subjugations, highlighting that, for certain frothers, *language* is not really what they’re so agitated about.

    109. Colin Alexander says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Aye, I live in Scotland.

      I agreed with Stu’s suggestion I stop going all out at criticising the SNP, so pointing out, no matter how good the SNP or any party is, devolution is rubbish.

      Devolution is NOT really Scottish Govt, it’s Westminster Govt allowing some administration of Westminster Govt from Holyrood rather than Westminster.

      Stu did an article on UDI. He made comparisons with UDI’s that have taken place.

      (No offence Stu, but in my view it is one of the poorest articles I’ve read on Wings, amongst some excellent ones). But make your own mind up on that.

      Here it is:

      NOT ONE OF THEM WAS SCOTLAND’s SITUATION. I guess the closest comparison is Ireland. But Ireland was an English, then UK colony obtained by war and held by denial of democracy and repression.

      But there are differences, read Mr Peffer’s comments for the explanation, but simply, Scotland remained a sovereign Kingdom in partnership with England via Treaties to create a Union of Kingdoms.

      Scotland wouldn’t be Catalonia, or Ireland, or USA or India. Scotland would be Scotland. We can be independent by democratically deciding to end the Union Treaty.
      It takes at least two parties to make a Treaty. It takes at least two to keep it.

      Scotland can simply decide they no longer wish to be signed up to that Union, just like the UK did with the European Union.

      The basic principle is as simple as that. That’s what I believe we should do.

    110. Des says:

      wull2 – there is a wealth of stuff out there to get started with. Tell you what folks it does really enrich your life, I just wouldn’t be witout it.

    111. Des says:

      wull2 just get on with it – there is a wealth of stuff out there to get started with. Tell you what folks it does really enrich your life, I just wouldn’t be witout it.

    112. Thepnr says:

      Ignore the well known troll, trying deflection again from what’s being discussed.

      This discussion on Gaelic and Scotland’s heritage has been excellent and very informative. No point throwing snowballs at trolls, they are best ignored.

    113. Artyhetty says:

      If you want to learn some Gaelic online, just go to this…

    114. HandandShrimp says:

      For many No voters, especially the older ones, anything that even remotely smacks as being Scottish is off limits. They have embraced being North British about 130 years too late.

    115. Artyhetty says:

      Ps I especially like the ‘beginners’ bit aboput the weather!

    116. Andy-B says:

      I’m all for pushing the Gaelic language in Scotland. I’m hoping one day Gaelic will replace English as Scots first language.

    117. wull2 says:

      Thanks for the advice Des, others take note, I know I will.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Gaelic’s as old as Latin but because our imperial master baiters have been passionately in love with Roman Empire shit, since 17th century, mythic conquest, slavery, architecture etc, we are taught to respect and bow to that completely dead language and those who know it, or pretend to.

      If they use Latin to teach grammar in private schools, Scotland can use Gaelic. But that just wouldn’t be British. Gosh it really is easy to politicise anything in Scotland today.

    119. Ruby says:

      Highland Wifie says:
      No Scottish songs just Lavender’s Blue Dilly Dilly!

      Ruby replies

      That’s interesting!
      It would seem some areas were taught Gaelic songs and others none at all.

      Obviously if you were denied all things Gaelic you would feel that is wasn’t part of your culture.

      Anyone else remember the songs they were taught at school?

      Learning songs is a good fun way to learn a language for example I know how to say

      I am tired gathering bracket all day long
      Wee Donald & sugar
      The Isle of Mull is of isles the fairest.

      I also know the highest apple but this one I didn’t learn at school. I learned it because I love the song

      Choir in Harlem learning to sing in Gaelic.

    120. ian murray says:

      In Ireland it is mandatory in school and you must pass it if you are to graduate
      On a personal level I am quite sure i would have used Gaelic far more than I have used Algebra

    121. John Symon says:

      We spent generations trying to extinguish the language. We, the Scots.
      It, and its associated culture, were under attack from centralising government long before the Union of the Crowns.
      The strongest campaign against Gaelic was waged by the Kirk and, more particularly, the SSPCK who ran schools which discouraged the use of Gaelic in favour of English from the late 18th century.
      It wasn’t till 1872 that Westminster got involved with the Education (Scotland) Act which effectively banned Gaelic in schools. Children weren’t even allowed to speak their native language in the playground.
      That anti-Gaelic prejudice still exists throughout Scotland, sadly. As can be seen by any discussion that one has, online, when you try to defend government protecting and encouraging t now.

    122. Colin Alexander says:


      You are the one that started talking about Catalonia when the discussion was about Gaelic.

      I was about to type pogue mo …but as it’s Christmas:” Nollaig Chridheil agus bliadhna Mhath Ùr for 2018.

      That’s merry Christmas and happy new year in Scottish Gaelic.

      Didn’t you know: The trolls are all busy with the elves helping Santa at Christmas time Ho Ho Ho.

    123. Liz Rannoch says:

      O/T sorry but could be important.

      Couple of folk have mentioned Wings twitter site and maybe a little excitement?!

      Because of something I heard a couple of weeks ago I have been interested in this site:

      Something is definitely going on!

    124. heedtracker says:

      There’s probably a lot of jobs in Gaelic just waiting. TEFL courses can get you quite a good anywhere in the world today but TGFL is in demand too.

      Another BetterTogether farce,

    125. Albert Herring says:


      I’m afraid there’s no word for “yes” in Gaidhlig.

    126. louis.b.argyll says:

      Marcia says 11:17 am


      Yes,very interesting.

      It’s a tricky language to learn from scratch, like Welsh, so a basic grounding for everyone at a young age would at least create a population which could at very least pronounce people’s and place’s ‘names’ without embarrassment.

    127. Shinty says:

      ian murray – On a personal level I am quite sure i would have used Gaelic far more than I have used Algebra

      Love it.

    128. thomas says:

      Interesting thing i read recently was when King James 4th moved down from the old citadel in Edinburgh to build his new palace at holyrood in 1503 , it appears gaidhlig was still the local vernacular in midlothian .

      An adjoining plot of land came to be known as “croft an righ” , the kings croft.

      Small part of the evidence to show that gaidhlig was once the language of the whole of scotland , and how the change from gaidhlig to English can be traced through the centuries.

      I think most scots today are still completely unaware of the gradual disappearance of the southern and eastern Gaidhealtachd.

    129. Torqil Fflufington Smythe says:

      Anent Gaelic speaking in Ayrshire.
      In 1746 a schoolmaster was required for the parish of Barr, South Ayrshire. One of the conditions that applicants had to meet was that they be Gaelic Scholars ie.they had to write and speak Gaelic. Now those who study these matters tell us that the majority of the people in this parish must have been Gaelic speakers to make such a qualification necessary.
      The man appointed to the post came from North West Perthshire proving that it was not Irish Gaelic that was in use.
      In a book published in 1899, the writer, a minister from Prestwick?, stated that he had spoken to the last native speaker in Ayrshire, an old lady in the clachin of Barr, a few years prior to the date of publication.
      Sorry I cannot remember the title of the book, the authors name may have been Black.
      It being now some 65 years back since I read that book.

    130. Habib Steele says:

      My view is that until we teach Gaelic and Scots as first languages, and English as a necessary second language, we will be treated as inferior by the Rees-Moggs of the English establishment, and we’ll feel ashamed of the way we speak.

      My opinion is that in the Highlands and Islands teaching in every subject should be in Gaelic, with English and Scots as important second languages. The Gaelic schools which exist already, can teach and show educators how it can be done. In the Lowlands, Scots should be the first language of education, with English and Gaelic as important second languages.

      I lived and worked in West Africa for 12 years. Everyone, including the children, spoke several languages. Alas, Education in schools was only in French. So people could speak their ethnic languages, but could not read nor write them. In Koranic schools they were taught to read Arabic. During a dictatorship, between 1958 and 1984, education was required to be in the language of each region’s ethnic make up. When the dictator died, the new regime reverted to French as the language of education.

      Classes for Adults and Television and Radio language education programmes could enable them to support their children and grandchildren, and be proud of our languages and cultures.

      I don’t know how these changes affected the population or the country. I think Scotland needs to teach our children to be proud of our languages and cultures.

    131. Vestas says:

      £26m is probably a lot less than the total of “accounting errors” amongst Scottish councils.

      You can’t bring things back when they die.

      Oh and @Albert Herring – yes there is, it just depends which tense you’d like it in 😉 Actually its a bit more complex than that IIRC.

      My mother was born in a village on Lewis and such was the (ongoing) purge on Gaelic (yes it is spelt that way in places) she found herself unable to talk to a woman in Skye because the language diverged so much.

      The Can Seo series of Gaelic learners programmes expanded the language enormously.

      Shame people think my ancestors are a waste of money….

    132. velofello says:

      ‘Gaelic singing is like the sound of the sea”, as noted above. – I’ve said that to so many people when discussing music.

      Thoroughly enjoyable posts from everyone.

      And yes Colin Alexander, don’t just be out of step for the fun of it. The SNP are arguably assimilating into our everyday lives the normality of “free at the point of use of many of life’s essentials”, the Nordic model if you like, and by via a fair spread of taxes to pay for these benefits,we support each other.

      Our task, the proIndy is to deliver the message to all, particularly the Yoons that with Brexit the “Times are a’changing”, and not for the better.Imperative we leave England to it’s Brexit fate.

    133. Colin Alexander says:

      “I’m afraid there’s no word for “yes” in Gaidhlig.”

      True, but “tha” pronounced like Ha in English is used as the eqivalent for yes.

    134. Robert Peffers says:

      While I have never grudged a single penny of taxpayers money spent upon promoting the ancient language of the Gael I find it very strange that proper Lowland Scots, (as distinct from Scottish Standard English), has no financial support whatsoever.

      I was brought up on a farm in what was then Mid Lothian but is probably now part of Edinburgh or perhaps even West Lothian. I do not recall hearing English spoken until my first day at the nearest village school.

      Thing is, after I learned to read, I found I could, without any effort, read such Scottish language works such as Thrawn Janet by Robert Louis Stevenson. I also found no problems with the Scots language works of The Ettrick Shepherd, James Hogg and had very little trouble with Robert Ferguson either.

      I did, at first, have a few problems with Burns but soon felt comfortable with the West of Scotland dialect.

      Really the only Scottish dialect a had a struggle with was the more broad spoken areas of the Doric such as, The Broch, (Fraserburgh), area.

      The Doric of North-East Scotland is perhaps, the most distinctive of all cottish dialects. There are different accents of Doric found in Aberdeen, Ellon, Inverurie, Elgin, Huntly, Keith, Aboyne, Braemar, Peterhead (Peterheid), Fraserburgh (The Broch), Buckie, and in the country districts of Buchan and Banffshire.

      However, I never could get to grips with the Gaelic.

    135. Robert Kerr says:

      I am a Scot with English as my mother tongue. I am very in favour of bilingual signs both here in Scotland and also in Wales which I visit frequently.

      These state very clearly and very eloquently


      Oh and this year I shall again enjoy BBC Caesar!’s new year programme. The subtitles can be improved but at least I don’t have to look at J Bird!

    136. Shinty says:

      ‘Bu choir’ with an accent over the ‘o’. – still have the badge.

    137. Glamaig says:

      I learned Gaelic after a German asked me if I could speak it. I said no, then asked myself why I didnt know much about it, having lived my whole life in Scotland surrounded by places with Gaelic names, and yet my knowledge of the language was virtually zero. Just one instance of a series of pennies which started dropping.

      Sometimes it takes an outsider to point out the obvious to you.

    138. Famous15 says:

      Hay Colin Alexander does batshit crazy Jill in the Green Ink Brigade
      know you are wasting your time on Wings? Pierce the Polis or the Prof will punish you.

    139. Iain says:

      A proportion of the population have an innate prejudice towards Gaelic, which I equate to representing their fear of Gaelic because they are, perhaps through no fault of their, ignorant of it. Simple as that.

    140. Albert Herring says:

      “Tha” means “is” and “Bu choir” means “ought to”.

    141. Moonlight says:

      Just saw a police car (a rare event). It seemed to have the word POLIS inscribed under the word Police. Hard to see in the snow. Is this a move towards Gaelic or a symptom of centralised control from Glasgow.

    142. TheItalianJob says:

      Fully support the Gaelic language. So part of Scotland, it’s people, history and culture.

      Can’t speak a word but love the sound of it and being a great lover of Celtic folk music since the 70’s absolutely love their songs. I have all the Ossian albums (actually saw them perform live in their heyday) and they have some great Gaelic airs and also Burns songs in their repetiore.

    143. One_Scot says:

      Have been gone for two days, (No Internet or TV and 302 missed WOS tweets) and it feels like I have no idea what is going on in the world. 🙁

    144. crazycat says:

      @ Shinty

      On my keyboard, ctrl + alt + o will give you ó

    145. crazycat says:

      @ Shinty – ignore me! That’s an Irish accent, not a Gàidhlig one.

      I used to have a UK-Ireland extended keyboard which contained both, but it didn’t transfer to Windows 10. I don’t know how to get ò without it, so just copy and paste.

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      I support Gaelic because there are native born speakers in it, and people who speak it in every day conversation, and it’s not just the old, it’s the young too. I come across then in various parts of Scotland. You get the same with Welsh in Wales.

      As for the poster who uses every thread to attack the SNP and attacks and misrepresents those who correct him and call him out on lies, there is this:

      A bit old-fashioned, but “Thou Shall Not Troll” and “Thou Shall Not Hijack” seem particularly appropriate.

      Any danger of a New Year clear out, to reduce disruption and hijacking – which are very different from wandering off-topic as all threads do after a couple of dozen posts or so?

    147. Colin Alexander says:


      Cheers for the acknowledgement, cos that will drive Alex Clark ( apologies, Thepnr) nuts. Engaging with the trolls he’ll call it.

      Gaelic is no jist a language, it’s part of a rich culture stretching back millenia. So, it should be embraced and cherished and used.

    148. Brian Powell says:

      Liz Rannoch

      That Facebook page isn’t available. What was mentioned in it?

    149. Shinty says:

      Robert Peffers – I think it would be grand if we all spoke Scots as a matter of course, but I would guess most of us struggle with it apart from the odd word. Too many skelped arses to ‘speak proper’ (ly), too many teachers belts, private school elocution lessons, and way too many cringers.

      I try to use the odd word on a daily basis and build on that over time.

      Sad reality of living in England’s last colony!

    150. Alan Mackenzie says:

      Just which alternative did the 1022nd respondent chose? The numbers quoted only add up to 1021. 🙂

    151. Des says:

      Just another thought folks, sometimes you may feel like answering to some of the anti-Gaelic pish you see out there. Just as easy to point them at this very useful page:

      “Top ten anti-Gaelic arguments demolished”

    152. Bob Mack says:

      @Brian Powell,

      The gist of it is that Michael Keatings and a team of 20 have been working on something since the referendum defeat. He states he will release the findings at 12 00 during the bells.

      Intriguingly he mentions the need to have done research in secret due to possible State interference.

      Mr Keatings claims the results will shake the foundations of Westminster to the core. Sounds very very big indeed.

    153. Shinty says:

      Crazycat – thanks for that, but I think (not sure) the ‘accent’ is the opposite ie high to low.

      But thanks for reminding me – think you can also get a Gaelic keyboard or at least a list of F keys.

    154. heedtracker says:

      Can’t speak a word but love the sound of it and being a great lover of Celtic folk music since the 70’s absolutely love their songs.”

      Its not just that. Gaelic first language speakers also have beautiful Scottish accents, when they speak English, the lucky sods:D

      Our glorious beeb gimp network sometimes has Gaelic speaker hacks, well one, and he’s now on neo fascist Nic Robinson’s daily BBC vote tory Today show. 3 hours of UK news, that never ever mentions their S____d region.

      So we’ll know we have finally become nation state Scotland again, when the state broadcaster news readers speak with the Doric, Glaswegian, Dundonian, Gaelic accents and NOT beeb gimp RP.

    155. Billy T says:

      Female, 55+, No voting, Leave EU and Conservative just hate our native language. Think Scotland has been colonised by takers but hate to give.

    156. crazycat says:

      @ Shinty at 6.48

      I realized I’d given you instructions for an Irish, not Gàidhlig, accent the instant I’d pressed “submit” (of course).

      My post saying that has not appeared. In it, I mentioned having had a UK-Ireland extended keyboard when I was using XP, which hasn’t transferred to Windows 10. I did install both languages as alternatives to English (for the rare occasions when I need them) but haven’t yet found a handy way to toggle between them for individual words, so usually resort to copy and paste.

    157. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      OT but shocking

      RTE reporting in 1987 MI5 asked the UVF to murder Ireland’s Taoiseach.

      The Orange chaps declined as they did not trust the Brits.

      This will be all over the Newspapers and BBC and all the regime’s broadcasters.

      The UK wanted the leader of a friendly state murdered.

      Wonder what the Irish lobby in the USA think of that.

    158. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Brian Powell 6.39pm

      Strange, I’ll check that out.

      Found this on Rev’s twitter same thing different layout

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lisa Corse says: 29 December, 2017 at 11:25 am:

      “Or looking at why Gaelic speaking tax payers don’t seem to deserve the same as English speaking tax payers?”

      That attitude may well be the reason that the SNP, as a government don’t spend more on the Gaelic Language. They do spend 100% more on Gaelic than they do on the Lallans leid, (Lowlands Language), never mind what is not spent on tunes o the Lallan’s leid, (dialects of the Lowlands language).

      “I am an SNP member as is my native Gaelic speaking daughter and we both agree that the SNP is not doing nearly enough.
      Education alone cannot “preserve” a language.”

      In that you and your daughter are correct – the only people who can extend the use of any language are those who speak and use it as their everyday language – and that is why both of Scotland’s languages require some help but, with the exception of Robert Burns, Lowland Scots has virtually no support from any government department.

      “If we don’t fully support our own language and culture, who will?” And there again is the attitude that shoots your claims down in flames. Just which is, “Our”, language, Lisa?

      Mine is Lallans Scots – a language in its own right, and at least as old a language as the English language with which it shares some common roots.

      Now I have supported the free use of Scottish Gaelic all my life but it is not MY language and neither is English my language.

      It is long past time that the people of Scotland came to terms with the fact that Scotland now has three languages and only two of them are native to Scotland – Gaelic and Lowland Scots and it does not include Scottish Standard English which is factually a dialect of English. Both Gaelic and Lowland Scots have distinctive dialects of their own.

      I’ll quote you an example of how Lowland Scots differs from Scottish Standard English.

      “The old man went down the garden path, through the gate and walked slowly down the street”.

      “The auld man went doon the gairden fitpath, ben the gate an wandered awa doon the road.

      ” The bodach gaed doon the causey, ben the yett an stravaigit the gate.

      English, Scots Standard English and Lowland Scots respectively.

      Unless, of course, any of you have your own local dialects of any of the three versions I quoted above.

      BTW: No language is pure – they all borrow from each other.

      I kid you not. I was in Wales, in a seaside area popular with the English. While sitting in the sun on benches outside a little snack bar a young woman across the table used the very Scottish term, “Minger”, about another young lady who was just passing by. Only then did I learn that the very Scottish terms, “Mingin”, and, “minger”, had passed into the English Language from Lowland Scots and had even featured that year as being a new, “English”, word in the Standard Oxford Dictionary.

      I kid you not:-

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      Michael Keating eh? One of Scotland’s (Aberdeen Uni) and the UK’s most interesting political constitutionalists.

      Can’t wait to see what he has unearthed.

    161. Neilyn says:

      If anglo-supremacist Brits ever try telling you that “we” should all speak English, and nothing but English, because this is Britain and we’re all Brits etc etc etc, just remind them that Welsh is Anglo-Saxon for a native Briton. Hence, “we” should all be speaking Welsh, the contempory British language, not English. That should shut most of them up. After all, I’ve heard it said “there’ll always be an England”. Fine, in that case there’ll always be an Caesar! / Scotland and a Cymru / Wales.

    162. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah – Martin Keatings, not Michael Keating. I did wonder as he’s kind of neutral.

      Still interesting all the same, seems it will appear here:

    163. Macart says:


      Curiosity well and truly piqued between the two for sure.

    164. ronnie anderson says:

      @b yesindyref2 Its Martin Keatings from Dunfermline & my guess is he’s ready to make his case at the Court of Sessions for Scottish Sovereignty .

    165. yesindyref2 says:

      @ronnie anderson
      Ah! Thanks for that. Good idea. That would put Scotland;s Future firmly in our hands, with no interference from Westminster “Now is not the time”.

      Indeed! 2018 is looking promising. Can’t wait! 2017 was a bit fraught [1] in a lot of ways.

      [1] fraugh in non-Gaelic = shi and add an “e” on the end.

    166. frogesque says:

      Whatever the sensitive biggie is for Hogmanay I can’t help but feel idle speculation is not helpful.

      You don’t threaten a wee nyaff, just nut them between the eyes when they least expect it! Lol

    167. Ruby says:

      My last post didn’t appear. Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted something I read on the Wings Twitter account which might be slightly disappointing.

    168. Ruby says:

      Is there going to be one or two Hogmanay biggies?

    169. Ruby says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      29 December, 2017 at 7:55 pm

      Ruby replies

      That’s one of the biggies and the other is the Rev’s big scoop which might be delayed due to shortage of legal advice today.

    170. Iain says:

      O/t I can’t help hoping that 2018 brings freedom for Scotland.
      All the best for 2018,freedom awaits.
      It’s coming.
      Yoons gnash your teeth!
      It’s coming!

    171. Albert Herring says:

      @Robert Peffers

      “Bodach” is actually Gàidhlig.

    172. colin alexander says:

      It would be fantastic if someone stood up for Scottish Sovereignty.

      Congratulations Breeks, maybe someone is listening to us at last about Scotland exercising her sovereignty.

      Unlike the politicians who claim to stand up for Scottish interests but, won’t deal with the basic issue of exercising Scottish sovereignty.

      Instead they bend the knee to Westminster and HM Betty in devolutionist servility.

      All the while trying to dig the Tory UK Govt out of their Brexit catastrophe which, if they succeeded, would strengthen the Union and weaken the case for indy.

      Not mentioning anyone in particular, of course.

    173. Shinty says:

      Crazycat @6.57pm

      ahh, Windows 10 – the biggest con in the history of my PC experience. Still grieving for Windows 7, lol.

      frogesque – you have a point there – it better be monumental and in our favour. And, something the barstewards can’t silence.

    174. Andrew Kennedy says:

      The MSM have the power to promote it but don’t. the 26 million is only 10% of the money raised via the licence fee and NOT spent on BBC Scotland.

    175. crazycat says:

      @ Shinty

      Yes, Windows 10 depresses me daily. I have, however, just discovered that pressing alt + the key to the left of the 1, releasing them, and then typing a vowel, leads to àèìòù, which is useful.

    176. CameronB Brodie says:

      Colin Alexander
      I agree, the voluntary nature of the Union is its Achilles heal and in an ideal world, the people of Scotland have the moral right to revoke the Treaties. However, we don’t live in an ideal world, we live in a normative world defined through narrative. In case you are forgetting, Scotland voted to No in 2014. As such, we lack ethical justification to declare independence and will need to convince enough Scots that independence is in their own best interests, and that of the global community (strengthening support for human rights and the rule-of-law). Any other approach to Scottish self-determination would fundamentally undermine the legitimacy of Scottish statehood, which, subsequently could not expect to succeed in achieving more pluralism and better governance than Westminster.

      You are aware of that, aren’t you Colin? Well you are now.

      David Miller, ‘Is there a human right to democracy?’1

      Human rights and democracy are both values that are almost universally endorsed, at least in contemporary liberal societies, and so it might seem somewhat pedantic to ask whether they can be linked together in the way that my question suggests, by seeing democracy itself as something to which we have a human right. Nonetheless there are at least two good reasons for asking the question. First, it is important to know not merely what our political principles are, but also why we hold them.2

      In the case of democracy, for example, we need to be clear whether it matters to us instrumentally, for the other goods and values it helps to promote, or whether it matters for its own sake. Equally, in the case of human rights, if we are going to avoid the mistake of packing everything that’s important to us into that particular box, we need to explore the grounds of human rights, and see whether those grounds can get us all the way to an institutional arrangement such as democracy. Those are the more philosophical reasons for exploring the question. But there is a second, more practical, reason.

      If there is indeed a human right to democracy, and if, as many believe, for a state to be politically legitimate it must respect human rights, it immediately follows that the many undemocratic states that exist in today’s world are illegitimate, and don’t deserve the respect that we owe to all legitimate states. This would undermine the position of those like John Rawls in The Law of Peoples who envisage a pluralistic but tolerant world in which liberal democracies co-exist on terms of mutual respect with ‘decent hierarchical societies’ whose political institutions are not democratic.3 It would significantly change the terms on which we interact with such states. We would have a moral responsibility to see that the human right to democracy was realised, even if this meant interfering in their internal affairs….

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      Re the Rev’s mysterious tweet and legal advice needed, I somehow doubt if any law of defamation specifically covers claiming that a DNA test has shown that [redacted + 24 other redacteds] is a shape-adapted body-snatching nightime Martian canal dweller – or their names when posting on Wings.

    178. colin alexander says:

      CameronB Brodie

      You make some very valid points. One of them is that the Union is a voluntary arrangement.

      The biggest obstacle to indy is getting enough residents of Scotland to vote for it.

      As Stu and contributors point out on a daily basis, the UK and their Unionist backers continually attempt to undermine the case for indy. Truth, morality and democracy are the casualties.

      I accept people are entitled to this opinion which I’m going to criticise, so to whoever, please don’t take it as a personal criticism, if you hold this view:

      In my opinion, it is absolutely absurd for the SNP to attempt to sort the Brexit mess the UK Govt and those who backed it by voting no, find themselves in.

      I’m not saying the SNP should try to make the situation as bad as possible, but I’m sure if the boot was on the other foot, the Unionists do all they could to exploit and damage the indy campaign if it was YES’s Brexit mess.

      To persuade people to vote for indy, in many cases we need to convince people they will be at least as financially secure, if not more so, by indy.

      The Union betrayed the promise that voting NO would keep Scotland in the EU and is trying to drag these No voters out of the Single Market too, which is predicted to be an economic nightmare.

      A situation that could make the Union a considerably less attractive economic safe house. By contrast, if indy Scotland could join the Single Market, it could make Scotland economically advantageous. Economically more appealing.

      An incentive to vote YES or elect pro-indy politicians to declare the Union dissolved.

      But instead of allowing the Unionists to stew in their own juices, alienating the No voters by their lies and total mess up, the SNP are making strenuous efforts to prevent a UK Union disaster.

      The UK Union has dug itself into a deep hole and the SNP are trying to give them a hand up and fill in the hole for them.

      If the UK Brexit disaster is averted, it would maintain the Union as being the safer option.

      Thus, damaging the chances of persuading more undecideds or previous No voters to back indy.

    179. colin alexander says:

      I don’t want to overload the thread with my comments, so I’ll bid you:

      Oidhche mhath

      or Goodnight Wingers.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      So long and thanks for all the pish.

    181. t42 says:

      Have you got ANY questions that show older people in a positive light?
      Getting fed up with the constant bile.

    182. JOML says:

      In my experience, the people who make anti-Gaelic statements have their facts wrong and are largely ignorant about Gaelic in general. The school building and cost of staffing are identical to any other state schools, and the class sizes are significant eg. there’s 33 pupils in my daughter’s class. I challenged someone once, stating that their comments smacked of bigotry… and they replied it was nothing to do with religion! That exchange illlustrates perfectly the quality of the anti-Gaelic camp.

    183. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I would like to know what mental picture Rev Stu has of the ‘average’ WOS reader e.g. age, social class, preferred facial hair arrangements etc etc.

      ‘Tae see wursels as ithers see us’…all that stuff.

      If it’s any consolation to t42, I would ‘guess’ that the average age of attendees at Friends of Wings social nights is well over 45. Or is it? I’m just having a stab in the dark, thinking about the people I’ve met.

    184. Conan the Librarian says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      You’re not wrong. When I was nineteen I played lip service to being a socialist, but I didn’t let it actually hinder my social life.

    185. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher’s Gov M15 were trying to murder Irish leader @ Guardian. UDV were being given information so they could murder people with the collusion of M15/UK Gov.

      Covering up under the Official Secrets Act. Papers not released on the sales of arms to Iraq 1980’s. Bank corruption and collapse, Report into BCCI collapse and surprise, surprise information on European matters not released. The Tories were/are complicient in all these matters. More cover up. They have also conveniently ‘lost’ papers into Tory corruption and child abuse. The crook and criminals in Westminster should be in jail. Covering up their crimes under the Official Secrets Act.

      Illegally killing and murdering people worldwide. Iraq reports covered up for 100 years. Dunblane cover up for years.

    186. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      You might find some of the answers you seek here:

      For example 59% of those that have taken the survey of Wings readers are over 45. That’s from 5320 surveyed and I’d guess that’s about right 🙂

    187. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Conan the Librarian –

      The biggest con-trick I’ve seen is the fetishisation (is that even a real word?) of solitary words. ‘Socialism’ is right up there – by merely suggesting it you can make adult Americans cry.

      Got talking to a friend t’other day whose father is total ‘Yer Da’ material, an Express/Mail reading bigot. He boasts (to family) about having a Blue Badge he *knows* he should’ve surrendered years ago, using it to secure special treatment at airports, getting wheelchaired onto the plane ahead of the queues etc, calls for ‘Your Bus’ to take him into the city centre for shopping because he grudges finding and paying for parking. He rails against the number of ‘dark’ faces on terrestrial television. Etc etc et-fucking-cetera…

      But his favourite target?…


    188. Dr Jim says:

      Just how many things have been culturally banned removed replaced by a country who would ban us breeding if they could
      People speak and learn Gaelic because it’s another part of who we are and our decisions to be who we are
      I don’t speak it and never had the opportunity to learn it, and that’s the point of having it, to not ever let anyone remove choice or what’s next

      Let’s have your DNA removed and replaced by a Morris dancers

      No F…..g thank you!

      And that’s not anti English it’s anti bullying
      So sick to the back teeth of Unionist familiars and bloody English Nazi Tories and Labour head cases imposing their lack of culture on everybody else because they’re too stupid to learn any other languages themselves except for the how to deal with Johnny foreigner language which is shout even louder English in peoples faces and demand the Fuzzy Wuzzies learn it

      I used the term Fuzzy Wuzzies in honour of our southern cousins love of nicknames for those “lesser” peoples of the world who are not them

      I could have cited many many more

    189. galamcennalath says:

      Re Wings Survey. Results don’t surprise me at all … except one …

      Are you male or female?

      Male (81%, 4,207 Votes)
      Female (19%, 1,010 Votes)

      Why? I haven’t a clue why women stay away.

    190. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      Cheers aplenty mister, I’d forgotten all about that survey, and I probably took part in it!



    191. Ken500 says:

      The majority of Wings commentators appear to be older. A majority of people vote SNP, including older people. Just better informed. Share with others. There is said to be a majority of older people in Scotland, as a proportion. Older people are more likely to vote, statistically. Most of them must vote SNP. Or the SNP would not win all the time by a vast majority. Just less as a % of the population, by comparison. According to the Polls. Most of which are wrong. Especially on a narrow division, The Tory (unionists) Party have few members % and they are elderly. Average age over sixty? They have to drag in people off the street to stand. That is why they have such incompetent, useless candidates. Limited pool of candidates. Bigots and racists with unrepresentative views.

      The biggest Party pro rata is the SNP. With thousands of members – proportionately. EU citizens can’t vote in GE only in local elections. Keeping out relatively younger voters. Preventing them from voting. Look on the back of the (electoral) council tax demand to see who is registered to vote in council elections per (EU) country. It happens in other EU countries too. EU citizens residents can only vote in local and regional elections. Not in GE and Referendums? No taxation without representation.

      The electoral system in Scotland was changed to favour the unionists. They is why they changed it. STV and D’Hondt gives them a 3/4 more advantage for unionists to vote out the SNP. A corruption of Democracy. In an electoral system many voters do not understand, voting for six? candidates can dilute the vote. Cancels out people’s vote. Some voters believe wrongly they have to vote for other Parties. They don’t. They can be deceived. FPTP would wipe the unionists out. It is not the elderly. It is the corruption of the electoral system by the unionists etc.

    192. Seon Caimbeul says:

      Your previous post on Gaelic wasnt “controversial” except in the sense often used by the unionist media to attack most things Scottish. It was most remarkable only for the way you revealed yourself as a xenophobe.

    193. Ken500 says:

      More men than women proportionately join political parties. 10 to 1? Or higher, but women still vote. In relatively equal numbers? Over 50% of the population. Encouraging more women to engage gives positive results. Nicola is good as an example, plus equality. Encourages more women to participate. Combats apathy which is deprimental to democracy. If more women participate it encourages others.

    194. Ken500 says:

      Any survey should really have equal male and female numbers. Otherwise it can distort the results. Methodogy standards. Unless it is factored in (as a proportion). Given (highlighted) explanation or acknowledgement. Statistically.

    195. Cactus says:


      Love the festive.

    196. Still Positive says:

      Ken 500.

      Many of the older voters who voted Yes are Snp members and voted for the SNP in the 70s.

      You just have to look at any SNP Conference crowd to see the number who are silver-haired and some of us who are not silver-haired but are clearly pensioners.

    197. Andy-B says:

      So Lord Adonis, whose been a infrastructure tsar, under PM’s as far back as Blair, and now under Theresa May, has resigned over the farce that is Brexit.

      Adonis came clean, admitting that Brexit will be bad for British business, and people as a whole. Adonis added that a extreme hard core of Brexiteers, is driving a hard Brexit.

    198. Fred says:

      Frankie Boyle in good form tonight! just sayin!

    199. Hamish100 says:


      Another year of honours — arise Sir Clegg and Curtice – under police investigation joe swinson gets a gong and on it goes. The establishment hicks with their noses in the trough being rewarded for Brit nat services rendered.

      This is how you keep them under control.

      Still their spouse/ mummy/ daddy/ dog/ cat/ goldfish- delete as required, are awfully proud and so surprised! What’s on my nose they ask? Just a bit of the OBN.

      Bless them.

    200. Phronesis says:

      There is ‘a linguistic dimension to discrimination. But language continues to be one of the least visible, least measurable and least understood aspects of discrimination which can be easily squeezed out by a proper and understandable focus on structural and institutional racism’ (Roberts,Davies & Jupp. Language and Discrimination)

      Gaelic is beautiful, poetic as are many of the languages that are spoken in Scotland currently. Whatever one’s cultural background the language of Scotland’s autonomy is equally important. The language of diversity, nurturing, aspiration, hope, ambition that is strongly connected to social justice. Compare with the language of deficiency that pervades the discourse of the disunited kingdom.

    201. Terence callachan says:

      Why do you think there are so many English people living in Scotland ? To buy a cheaper home ? To marry someone here ? Just because they like to live here ? These account for a small number, the main reason is work and that has been the case for a long time and it’s not just a case of spreading their wings to find work oh no, the British government intentionally made it easier for English people to get jobs in Scotland by filling senior posts with English people who then employed more and more English people and now nearly a fifth of our population is English people most of whom will return to live in England, but this is a never ending British policy they did it all over the world and continue to do it wherever they can you see it’s about converting a country to Englishness and it’s been done to Scotland by calling everything British.There is an unusually high number of English people in senior positions in our schools universities hospitals and national institutions and they all do the covert work of employing as many English people as possible.
      Scotland has been colonised and its people downtrodden by its larger bullying neighbour.

    202. Still Positive says:

      Just seen the ‘honours’ list. Happy for Barry Gibb and Ringo Starr if that is their thing.

      Some of the others are boak-inducing.

      In an independent Scotland we must find a new system to acknowledge our citizens who have worked hard in their communities.

    203. heedtracker says:

      . Compare with the language of deficiency that pervades the discourse of the disunited kingdom.”

      I am old enough to remember Snatcher Thatcher suddenly appeared on the tory beeb gimp network talking like the queen. It was both very funny and quite scary at the same time, as only tory reprobates can be, red and blue. Good old St Thatcher, from middle class Grantham to blue blood royalty.

      The English do like their betters to sound like the queen though. This weeks BBC R4 Today show’s been edited by someone called Baroness Trumpington who is clearly mad as a hatter, but slotted in very neatly to neo fascist Nic Robinson’s vote tory Today 3 hour show. If the bbc logo turns into a swastika tomorrow, it wouldn’t be that much of a shock.

      To the whore house everyone! Tally ho.

    204. Thepnr says:


      Aye, mibbee in good form pity the patters poor. Could do with some new material I would think.

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      One of my grannies was English but she ran away from domestic service in Carlisle when she was 15 years old. She found work in the Dundee mills.

      That might be why I’m an enthusiastic heckler of those who support exploitation and a lack of liberty. Possibly not though. 😉

    206. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      Now you are really getting on my nerves. Despite me providing evidence fromthe Census in recent days here on Wings that your 20% figure was obviously wrong and that the true number of English born living in Scotland was 9% you continue to push your agenda.

      I saw yesterday too that you had done exactly the same also on the btl comments on Wee Ginger Dug, I was irked but couldn’t be arsed replying so instead I typed your name in Google.

      It would appear that you have typed the same stuff on many Indy supporting blogs even though I believe you are a supporter of Independence you have a giant Queen Bee in your bonnet about English people. Why?

      Well that is NOT what Independence is about so could you quietly walk right out the door of Wings and please don’t bother trying to find your way back in again.

      Spreading misinformation and lies does not last long on Wings.

    207. Ken500 says:

      10%? of voters in Scotland are English. Over 1/4 of them support Independence. More vote SNP. If a residential qualification was bought in to prevent students etc passing through. Even less. 4%? A relatively low number which can easily be outvoted. 40% of the rest of the voters do not support Indy yet. Many of them lived through Thatcher. That is the mystery. People can become more conservative when they get older and even have memory lapses. Understandably. That is just a consideration.

      It is 50/50 now. At the last Indy Ref the support grew over 18% from 27%? to 45%. It is still increasing. Keeping up with an irrelevant blame game is not helpful to the situation. In fact is a deterrent to gaining support in some cases. It just needs a couple of % to get over the line. Encourage others to participate. Not be negative might be a better policy. Everything to play. To get others to come onboard. The Brexit fiasco. A complete shambles will scunner people. When the vast majority want to stay in the EU. Even people without a vote.

    208. Ken500 says:

      There are 10% of Scottish folk in England. What would people say if they were denied the vote. There would be outrage from many who advocate withdrawing the vote from English people long time residents in Scotland and paying taxes etc. It just makes a mockery of Democracy.

      Proportionately 2/3% of the 10%? in Scotland will not vote. That leaves roughly 6%. 2% vote for Independence 1/4? Take off the students passing through 1 or 2% of the 4% left. Leaves 2% of total voters. If that can’t be outvoted? Instead of getting hysterical. Mass hysteria.

      There are other injustices more important to worry about. The corrupting of the political system etc and criminal behaviour by unionist politicians. Getting away with it.

    209. Ken500 says:

      English the language is universally spoken in the world. Possibly more influenced by the US (300 million+ ) For trade and commerce etc. Although Spanish? is the most widely language spoken and easier to learn. A history of colonisation. It can be as an advantage to traditional speakers, throughout the world. Means they can be lazier and and not learn another language. Travel can be just as important as education for better understanding. People run the world sometimes learn English from films. Unfortunately in some cases, Hollywood films made by perverts and crooks. They end up speaking ‘English’ with an American accent.

      Gaelic is still surviving though (a miracle) and given support is thriving. Shows it’s resilience. Part of the culture. It would be quite weird if it was not continuing there in music, history and literature. A loss. It’s influence can be found in many areas. Not just sign posts or places.

    210. Ken500 says:

      People around the world. Where did ‘run’ come from. Pre text. A scunner.

      Imagine the justifiable outcry if Rev Stu was prevented from voting in England. Even though there is no one for whom it is worth voting. Same old, same old. Shame.

    211. David Caledonia says:

      Arise Sir David Caledonia, thank you, your majesty, you can call me anything you like, but don’t call me to early in the morning, that’s the time i will be getting myself all tarted up, and going to the House of Lords to get my 300 quid, oh its a great life being Sir David of Idleness , that’s next to useless and brainless btw, drop in for a cuppa and a custard cream if your ever in the neighbourhood….. heh heh heh

    212. Petra says:

      I’ve had no time to read through ANY of the posts on here, but at the end of the day I would say that we should be promoting and holding onto our own Gaelic language.


      Why not?

      Because Westminster and their lackies say no?

      Because some Scots in Scotland or further afield say no?

      I say get lost and get real.

      With Independence we’ll be reuniting all Scots with their own unique history, culture and heritage and that includes their very own language. Like it or not.

      Tata to all folks who don’t agree.

    213. Hamish100 says:

      Sir David Caledonia


      You only get £300 quid a night if you become a Lord or Dame — or work on the streets! Allegedly

    214. Thepnr says:

      Looks to me now like a straightforward fight now between those that believe in the propaganda and those that don’t.

      This is not between us that believe in Independence and your neighbour who might not, it all about a fight for minds and the information people are getting that can change minds. Including your neighbour. We have a voice so must use it.

      We all have it within us to use our powers of persuasion to convince just one person. That’s what you must do, that’s your job between now and the next Referendum.

      Get in there with the head down, do the best you can, then we win.

    215. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wonder how many lawyers trained in Scots law, choose to support Brexit and not their nation’s culture and intellectual property?



      B. General Theory of Norms

      3. Individuation

      ….In the context of discussions of normative and legal pluralism, order, system, code, and culture all present conceptual problems. If one asks: under what conditions is it true to say that a normative order exists? One is tempted to give a rather vague answer. One example might be in the form of a definition per genus et differentiam: for example, a normative order is a set of norms or social practices oriented towards ordering relations between members of a community or group where this set is more or less established, more or less integrated, with more or less defined boundaries. This is not a precise set of necessary and sufficient conditions that give “the essence” of a normative order because most of the constituent elements are vague: normativity (or obligatoriness), institutionalization, boundedness, and to use a Llewellynism, groupness are all matters of degree. Often the concept is useful just because it is vague and flexible.

      Here the concept of culture provides a relevant analogy. It is a commonplace that “culture” is a vague and elusive term. We know that cultures are not static, monolithic, or clearly bounded; cultures change and intermix; there are dozens of different definitions of “culture.”30 Yet we often confidently talk about multi-culturalism and multi-cultural societies, cross-cultural dialogue or communication, cultural blindness, cultural mixing, and so on. It is a useful concept provided that we do not reify it.

      C. Normativity

      We have noted in relation to the concept of pluralism that there is tendency in the literature to slide from the descriptive to the prescriptive. But classical legal pluralism studies tell us almost nothing about the internal or external legitimacy, obligatoriness, or legality of non-state legal orders. Their existence as a social fact has been their main concern. But questions arise at all levels of legal ordering about how coexisting orders should view each other.

      In recent years legal philosophers have devoted a great deal of attention to the topic of “the normativity of law.” The central question is whether (state) law is by its nature obligatory, binding, authoritative or whether obligations to obey, observe, respect the law are based on contingencies external to the law itself. For example, in a stimulating book Sylvie Delacroix argues that laws are human creations that are obligatory for judges, lawmakers, and citizens “if law is deemed to promote a set of moral and prudential concerns essential to a ‘good’ way of living together.”31 In other words the normative force of law is itself a creation of the moral aspirations and sense of responsibility of its subjects as members of a community….

    216. Cactus says:

      Big hints in the Wings Twitter…

      Big scoop coming up.

      2018 coming up.


    217. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 29 December, 2017 at 4:50 pm:

      “I agreed with Stu’s suggestion I stop going all out at criticising the SNP, so pointing out, no matter how good the SNP or any party is, devolution is rubbish. “

      Why don’t you stop wasting everyone’s time, Colin, including your own?

      “Devolution is NOT really Scottish Govt, it’s Westminster Govt allowing some administration of Westminster Govt from Holyrood rather than Westminster.”

      Indeed it is, Colin. Seems everyone but you knew that even before we agreed to accept devolved powers.

      Stu did an article on UDI. He made comparisons with UDI’s that have taken place.

      So, why the very big jump from the subject you began with, Colin. Devolution has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with UDI. There used to be a term for that kind of logic. They called it, “The Grasshopper Mentality”.

      So now you think that Stu’s article on UDI was poor because, “none of the UDI situations Stu described was Scotland’s situation. – “NOT ONE OF THEM WAS SCOTLAND’s SITUATION”

      Yep! That’ll perhaps be because Scotland’s past and present political situation has/had nothing whatsoever to do with UDI.

      In any case if the SNP were to declare that Scotland was now independent it couldn’t legally be a Unilateral Declaration of Scotland’s independence. This because the definition of unilateral independence is:-

      “Unilateral Declaration of Independence. noun.

      1. a declaration of independence made by a dependent state without the assent of the protecting state.

      Like the Republic of Ireland made after it was The Irish Free State, (That is it was first made a DOMINION of the United Kingdom), but all Ireland was previously annexed by, “The Kingdom of England”, from the 1582 Crown of Ireland Act of the Parliament of Ireland.

      This after the Holy Se in Rome had appointed the Monarch of the then Kingdom of England the Lord of All Ireland. That Kingdom of England had already annexed Wales in 1284 by The Statute of Rhuddlan. Thus, The Kingdom of England, that became the partner kingdom with Scotland in 1706/6 was composed of The Country of England and the two annexed countries England had annexed.

      So both Wales and all Ireland were already parts of the Kingdom of England long before there was a United Kingdom in 1706/7.

      Legally Wales and all Ireland became parts of the United Kingdom because they were parts of the Kingdom of England and the Treaty of Union, as it’s name tells the World, is a Union of Kingdoms and one of them contained three countries. I’ve seen the actual document that only has the signatures of the representatives of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England.

      The United Kingdom is exactly what it claims to be a bipartite Kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms and it is not, as Westminster would have us believe A COUNTRY. At best it could be described as political union or state. Ask to see the document that created a single country from two kingdoms that contained four countries and they will search for that document a very long time, but will not find it.

      That is the reason Scotland cannot legally declare UDI, because the constituent parts of the United Kingdom are legally both equally sovereign KINGDOMS. As such there cannot be a dependent Kingdom, state or country.

      ” … But there are differences, read Mr Peffer’s comments for the explanation …

      First of all, Colin my name is Peffers thus you should have written the name in that bit of English language as, “Peffers’ but we will let that pass. I am not responsible for what you think I have explained but it sure as hell doesn’t back up your claims.

      ” but simply, Scotland remained a sovereign Kingdom in partnership with England via Treaties to create a Union of Kingdoms.” Aye! they were not countries, not states just plain old Kingdoms and, as such, each was a sovereign kingdom and quite simply they both still are legally kingdoms according to the Treaty of Union.

      Yes, that is correct, but the salient facts are that both Ireland and Wales were/are, “The English Kingdom’s”, possessions and there is documentation to prove it. The Statute of Rhuddlan and the Crown of Ireland Act.

      Wales was an English principality from before the Statute of Rhuddlan and the Prince of Wales of today is the Queen of England’s first born. What remains of Ireland in the United Kingdom is an English Province. A province is defined thus:-

      “a principal administrative division of a country or empire.” But there is no British Empire and I’ve never heard mention of an English Empire – have you?

      Example – “Chengdu, capital of Sichuan province”.

      “Scotland wouldn’t be Catalonia, or Ireland, or USA or India. Scotland would be Scotland. We can be independent by democratically deciding to end the Union Treaty.”

      Whoa! Just what do you mean by, “We can be independent by democratically deciding to end the Union Treaty”

      Who is this, “We”, you refer to?

      It cannot be the Holyrood Parliament, nor can it be the Scots in the Westminster Parliament. It cannot be the SG, no matter which party is in power when that event occurs unless they had a real landslide and wiped the collective unionist parties out.

      In both cases that would indeed be a UDI. The big thing that stops the SNP/SG from doing just that with a simple majority at either Westminster or Holyrood is that the Scottish people are legally sovereign and thus to end the Treaty of Union requires that whoever declares the Treaty ended must do so on the orders of a majority of the eligible voters in Scotland.

      Not just a mandate to hold another referendum. Not just a majority enough to be bigger than any other individual party but a greater than 50% of the entire electorate but excluding those who abstain. Westminster has a record of counting abstainers as whatever way suits their barrow.

      The sovereign of the Kingdom of England is Elizabeth Regina but, (only under the kingdom of England rule of Law), the monarch of England has to, “LEGALLY”, delegate the sovereignty of the Kingdom of England to the Parliament of England. She is though still legally the sovereign of the Kingdom of England

      However, according to the Treaty of Union, the Rule of law of both kingdoms must remain sacrosanct in perpetuity and thus the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and that means only they can decide that Scotland will end the Union, (and, if any political party were to attempt to declare the Treaty ended) there would be legal challenges and unless they could show they did not instigate such a decision by the legally sovereign people of Scotland the courts would have to rule it was

      Why do you think that Westminster has been claiming such balderdash as that claimed opinions of their commissioned legal experts that, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England to be the United Kingdom?

      Why do you think that they claim the last, elected as such, parliament of England had just continued after the union but with the addition of the Scottish contingent? It didn’t – it was clearly would up and is reported as being so in Hansard.

      That though is the reality – Westminster has continued as if they were the actual parliament of the country of England. The truth is so bloody obvious that it hasn’t yet made it through to ordinary people’s conscious thoughts.

      I’ve been shouting it at Wings since ever I posted here.

      Westminster is the de facto, unelected as such, Parliament of the country, (not even the kingdom), of England and there has not been an actual elected as such Parliament of England since the last day of April 1707.

      Yet Westminster, since 1st May 1707 has legislated for the country of England, using English Law, and then tagged wee paragraphs on the end of the English Acts where Scots law differs. Not only that but they fund only England as The United Kingdom, (And London as if it were a country by itself).

      Thus, when Westminster decided to devolve Westminster powers to the other three countries, it decided to keep Westminster as, the unelected as such, parliament of the country of England it was actually devolving the sovereign power of ONLY the de facto parliament of England to the other three countries and thus ignoring the legal fact that Scotland was not just another constituent part of the Kingdom of England but an equally sovereign partner kingdom.

      And that, Colin, is what only the majority of the sovereign people of Scotland can make stick. Scotland is an equally sovereign kingdom partner and not just another annexed part of the Kingdom of England like Wales and N.I.

      Until the legally sovereign people of Scotland realise they are an equally sovereign partner in a two kingdom United Kingdom then we will remain just another British country that the country of England has decide to rule over.

      Scots must get it through their heads that what the United Kingdom actually is and that Westminster is NOT the United Kingdom Parliament nor is it the parliament of Britain.

      It operates as the non-elected Parliament of England, uses EVEL to enforce that, and thus it is the country of England treating Scotland as just another possession of the country of England when the legal truth is that the United Kingdom is a two partner kingdom with only two equally sovereign partner kingdoms. Can anyone, either for or against, legally prove otherwise?

    218. Big Phil says:

      @ Alex, Thepnr.
      gone yersel mate ,what a kick in the arse ye gave them @ 11.56. brilliant 😉

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “Unilateral Declaration of Independence. noun.

      1. a declaration of independence made by a dependent state without the assent of the protecting state.

      I never thought to look that up. Very interesting Robert. Also interesting to go along with that are:

      state: a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.


      government: the group of people with the authority to govern a country or state; a particular ministry in office

      as opposed to

      executive: the branch of a government responsible for putting decisions or laws into effect

      there’s also this of course (dependent state = dependent territory):
      which doesn’t contain Scotland.

      and then there’s this (subnational entity = administrative division)
      where “An administrative division, unit, entity, area or region, also referred to as a subnational entity, constituent unit, or country subdivision, is a portion of a country or other region delineated for the purpose of administration. ”

      but of course Scotland is not a subdivision of a country, nor is it a region.

      Could be that Salmond knew long-term what he was doing back in 2007, and all that’s needed would be a DI, not A UDI! Just as long as a majority agree.

    220. yesindyref2 says:

      “… but of course Scotland is not a subdivision of a country, nor is it a region.”

      Didn’t complete that sentence, should be:

      “… but of course Scotland is not a subdivision of a country, nor is it a region. Scotland is a country in our own right.”

    221. yesindyref2 says:

      Or from another angle, there’s this, the 1689 Claim of Right which was perhaps Wolffe’s sole interest in his submissions to the UKSC appeal, Sewell being a distraction:

      plus of course the Jan 2012 Holyrood Claim of Right, which gives the power to the People of Scotland to choose the form of Government we want.

      2018 could be very interesting.

    222. Liz g says:

      Mibbi they’re going to take Westminster to Court for breaking the terms of the Treaty.
      Get it set aside and made void
      And the next referendum will be to decide if we want to negotiate another one?

      Now there’s a thought!

    223. caledonia says:

      Where are all these documents about Scotland held
      Because a lot are going missing

    224. Ken500 says:

      UDI can’t be declared without a majority voting for it. That is not democracy. There could only be grows for UDI if a majority voted for it. Or a majority voted for Independence and it was not respected. Just like the promises and lies that were already given and betrayed upon. The VOW etc. Not delivered. Printed by the arrogant, conceited Foote. What an Imbecile. This gives definite grounds for another Independence Ref without a doubt. A majority of people in Scotland have already voted upon and there is a mandate.

    225. Charles says:

      Glad you are using the donations you recieve from Gaelic speakers and those sympathetic to its revival…to undermine them.
      Why dont you waste more money asking what film they like…oh wait.

    226. Ken500 says:

      The Honours system is just ridiculous. A farce. Another political total waste of taxpayers money. Costing £Billions, Awarded in the majority to already well heeled folk. To corrupt politicians and others who keep on getting it wrong.Total corruption in the majority. In every way shape or form. While people are being sanctioned and starved to death. Leading to the death of millions of innocent people. How crass can they get. Shameless.

      Another feature of the UK unionists. The most unequal society on the planet. More politicial corruotion and manipulation. In the main multimillion tax evaders rewarding themselves and their supporters. Just a scandal.universities in Scotland should really look to who they are employing and their competence . Censored time and time again by their association. Paid for failure in every aspect. Taking a total lend of the Scottish taxpayers.

    227. Liz g says:

      Charles @ 7.29
      While am glad yer glad Charles whit exactly is yer point?

      And how dae ye feel about contributing to a substantial poll back in 2014 that never did get published.

      Personally I think any poll that Westminster used your money to pay for should be published…. I mean if Wing’s can do it for his contributors, why can’t Westminster?
      What say you Charles?
      Should they publish and be dammed?

    228. Les Wilson says:

      Charles says:
      As another yoon troll arrives.

    229. Liz g says:

      Les Wilson @ 7.48
      I Think this might be only a baby wan Les!
      Anyhoo it was a good opportunity to remind everyone that Westminster ordered a substantial poll just before Indy ref 1 at tax payer’s expense and kept it secret.

      Wis wonderin tho what do you actually call a baby troll?
      A trollett? or is that a female troll?

    230. gus1940 says:


      Last Saturday’s first leg of the Edinburgh v Glasgow 1872 Cup was broadcast on both SKY and BBC Caesar!.

      According to the TV Listings today’s second leg is only being broadcast on SKY.


      Perhaps PQ could provide us with the reason.

    231. mr thms says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2.03 am

      Prior to the Scottish referendum thought was given to the status of an independent Scotland.
      At the time, most of the mainstream media said Scotland would become a new state and the rest of the U.K. would become the successor state.

      Had there been a Yes vote in a Scottish referendum, would the U.K.have had to leave the EU?

    232. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says…

      “…. to end the Treaty of Union requires that whoever declares the Treaty ended must do so on the orders of a majority of the eligible voters in Scotland.

      Not just a mandate to hold another referendum. Not just a majority enough to be bigger than any other individual party but a greater than 50% of the entire electorate but excluding those who abstain. Westminster has a record of counting abstainers as whatever way suits their barrow.”

      What I find exasperating is that Scotland’s decision to end the Union would be sovereign, so it is implicit that Scotland does have the capacity to make a sovereign decision. So why isn’t Holyrood confident in presenting itself as a credible sovereign interlocutor to Europe and insisting that Europe respects Scotland’s capacity to act independently from the UK? – Even if it was just on a provisional, probationary basis to resolve the membership protocols and to formally determine how Scotland would or could retain its EU Membership.

      Neither Articles 48 nor 49 of the Lisbon Treaty are applicable to Scotland, because Scotland’s situation is unique and unprecedented. Westminster would try to maintain the argument that Scottish Independence is an act of secession, but the ending of the Union between two equal Kingdoms does not create a continuer State and a secessionist State, because there is no continuance condition for a Union which ceases to exist. England has no more right to claim status as the Continuer State from a dissolved UK than Scotland does.

      If the United Kingdom dissolved before it left the EU, then would be no UK to act as Continuer State. The reality is you would have an English government which could act as continuer State with minimal disruption, given that in relative size and performance together with fully rounded government England could do things which Scotland could not, but that argument is academic.

      For arguments sake, say the positions were reversed. Say it was England wanting to remain in the EU and Scotland which had elected to leave. England could only seek EU membership on the basis of English sovereignty, and they would have no right whatsoever to continue their EU membership as the “Continuer” of the United Kingdom.

      It’s all very well to talk the talk as a sovereign Nation with our own constitutional integrity, but then we cannot walk the walk, and time and time again we meekly prostrate ourselves and accede to every Westminster and EU diktat produced. We should DEMAND that the EU recognises Scotland as a sovereign interlocutor, and facilitates Scotland’s own Brexit negotiations and contingencies.

      We may not be the seceding State by legal definition, but by our actions and supine deference to Westminster, we are tacitly accepting that Scotland would indeed by the seceding State, and all our membership rights and protocols would be forfeit.

      I simply do not accept the argument that Scotland can do nothing whatsoever to safeguard its sovereign constitution without first a majority for Independence. To “act” may require a democratic mandate, but to “be” sovereign is an absolute permanent condition. Westminster is currently dancing all over our constitutional sovereignty when with a far more healthy degree of obstructive awareness, Scotland could, and in my opinion should, have Westminster quaking in its boots the moment any issue begins sailing close to a remotely constitutional issue.

      Out Scottish Constitution should be a veritable minefield for Westminster, but instead we muddle on, fumbling in the Constitutional darkness looking for the light switch, and allow the confused guddle between democracy and sovereignty to tie ourselves in knots, frustrate every initiative for us not them, and provide ourselves with a convenient excuse for doing absolutely nothing.

      Exactly what do we expect from Brexit when throughout the negotiations we sit on our hands, let Westminster decide what’s best, and act like the proverbial disinterested wall flower? Instead, we should ask ourselves what sovereign Scottish government would do in our shoes, and act accordingly, getting to grips with Brexit and our hostile propagandised media monopoly.

    233. Kate McLaren says:

      By the way, wull, there’s no Gaelic word for “Yes”. Apologies if someone has already pointed that out and I have missed it.

    234. Ruby says:

      Kate McLaren says:
      By the way, wull, there’s no Gaelic word for “Yes”. Apologies if someone has already pointed that out and I have missed it.

      Ruby replies

      That has been posted already. Not quite sure why you think that’s important. It would only be an issue if there was no way in Gaelic to answer in the affirmative.

      Funnily enough even with my very limited Gaelic vocabulary I do know who to say YES & NO in Gaelic.

      For Yes I say tha and for no chan eil.

      There is no reason why Gaelic speakers couldn’t just use the word YES after all just think of the number of foreign words we use in English. Just last week Kevin McKenna used the word arrondissement in his Herald article.

    235. Colin Alexander says:

      @Mr Peffers

      I applaud you on much of what you explain.

      However, ( if I understood you right) I totally disagree that to leave / end the Union requires 50% of ALL the population of Scotland to vote to end the Union.

      The Union was entered into by the votes of the unelected aristocracy. If the Union is created without a minimum % of votes, then I don’t see how any minimum figure to leave can be stipulated.

      I would argue, in the modern era of popular democracy, the requirement would be to win an election or referendum – no minimums, as long as the pro-indy vote wins.

      I suspect courts would wash their hands of these legal arguments about the Union. I suspect the courts would say the Union is not law, but a political agreement.

      The effect of that is that, would be to demolish all the Westminster arguments about Scotland needs WM permission to hold referendums or that Scotland’s politicians cannot decide to vote to end the Union.

      Basically, the game’s a bogey as regards all legal arguments.

      The future will be decided by popular political will. In other words, if independists stood for and won a political mandate to end the Union, they could declare it ended.

      Westminster legal challenges would be rejected as not competent; it’s politics, not law.

      Of course, you have your opinion, I have mine. None of this has been established as fact.

      I would point to the Sewell Convention challenge in the Supreme Court as the basis for my reasoning. What I took from that is that the Court didn’t want to get into politics. It washed its hands of the matter.

      No doubt, I’ll be told, the Court didn’t say that. But sometimes, what’s not said, is more important than what is said.

      @Breeks Well said. Until the whole Scottish sovereignty issue is properly explored by attempting to exercise it, rather than just accepting what Westminster tells us, then the whole situation is a mess, that continues to give Westminster the power.

      That the SNP / Scot Govt ALWAYS deliberately avoid this issue: the nearest they came to it was attempting to use the Sewell Convention ( but that’s a devolution issue, not Scottish sovereignty) is a serious mistake.

      The SNP talked about the Claim of Right, and Scotland’s vote on the EU ref must be respected.

      Then the SNP accepted Brexit and not only accepted it, they are actively participating in it, trying to obtain a soft Brexit – after asserting the democratic will of Scotland must be respected ( Scotland voted Remain in the EU.)

      The Scottish Govt should have asserted to the UK Govt and EU that Scotland’s will to remain in the EU should be respected as Scotland has political sovereignty. That the UK is not a unitary state, but a partnership, so all partners must agree.

      That is the argument the FM was putting forward. (Take that as praise for the FM and Scot Govt).

      But, Why did the SNP then do an about turn and totally undermine the sovereignty issue?

    236. Calum McKay says:

      No suprise, colonialists seek to “rub out” the culture and language of nations they are colonising.

    237. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks “So why isn’t Holyrood confident in presenting itself as a credible sovereign interlocutor to Europe and insisting that Europe respects Scotland’s capacity to act independently from the UK?

      Because it’s not a competent sovereign interlocutor, currently, it hasn’t been empowered by the people.

      Indy Ref 1 “Should Scotland be an Independent Country?” 55% NO, so Scotland remains in the UK (partnership).

      EU Ref “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?” 51.5% Leave, so the UK leaves the EU. The UK decided to leave the EU, and previously Scotland decided to remain in the UK.

      Holyrood has no mandate for Scotland to leave the UK so it needs to ask another question, in another referendum, to reflect the substantial change to the 2014 constitutional position that leaving the EU would make. That’s not even definite yet, the Brexit farce is still being played out.

      But note carefully that Sturgeon was going to outline the steps if the UK Gov refused to “grant” a Section 30 Order, so clearly there are steps that can be taken. It’s probable Holyrood knows its limitations – but also its powers, in respect of representing the Sovereign People of Scotland. But “now is not the time” to test these, and potentially take it to the proof in Court. The easy route is an S30, perhaps obtained in the face of obstruction with the understanding of those “next steps”. The UK Gov either fodls and “grants” it, or faces humiliating consequences, similar to the UKSC Miller appeal.

      That’s the way I see it.

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      I said: “But “now is not the time” to test these, and potentially take it to the proof in Court

      That’s the Scottish Government, NOT any individual in Scotland who is totally entitled to do what they want, within the Law. Just as Miller did in the UK.

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      Regarding the Sewell Convention in the UKSC appeal, as I said earlier I really don’t think Wolffe had any interest in that at the time, there was only a brief discussion over the meaning of “convention”, though in International terms such as the CWC – Chemical Weapons Convention – once signed and ratified by a state, is legally binding.

      The discussion was over the word “normally” in the Scotland Act, and Keen had a distinct advantage there as he was one of the Lords who implemented that in the Act and was able to explain the “Intention”. Wording is important, but when it is ambiguous the next step is to see if the intention can be clarified, and that includes whether it can just be struck out as superfluous. In this case it was upheld, and the meaning was taken as “usually, but not always”.

      Regards Scotland voting 62% Remain and 38% Leave, which I know you will point to Breeks, as do I, contrary to the overall UK vote, that is a Constitutional matter, and also a “Sovereign People” issue, and I would say it’s time has not come. Yet. But it will – if neccessary.

      Just one last thing. Wolffe has been desperate to do something like he did in the UKSC, for many’s a year – since last century I think. I doubt he fluffed his chance, hence he was prepared and knew what he was doing – or at least, I think so. A case of limited objectives perhaps, one step at a time.

    240. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2 11.58

      That’s my understanding too. Of course there is also more than one way for a willing Scottish government to seek that mandate. A Scottish election or a GE, but a popular mandate on a specific question/understanding is all that is required.

      Until now self governance has not been the popular option. The UK state convinced a slim majority that a political union was their best option at the time and that sadly, was that.

      That majority though is fast disappearing. Roughly 4% over three years, though it may be slightly more or less and that is without campaigning or formal organization. Not fast enough for some, but not too shabby either. Any amount of parties in the normal course of politics would bite your arm off for that kind of shift.

    241. Macart says:


      Should be 11.55 post.

    242. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. I also think IR2 being mostly out of the news now is helping people move over slowly of their own accord, first to don’t know or won’t vote / won’t say, then to YES, hopefully. I think a lot of people were sick of hearing about it all.

      There was a 21% FK / WV / WS in Rev’s poll. Gimme a yes. YES!

    243. Macart says:


      My guess is the FM will practically invite May to refuse an indyref/S30 (I double dare you kinda thing). I’d be surprised if she did mind you, but not shocked. They are a bit on the arrogant side. It frees up options b, c and d, which are still within a devolved parliament’s remit and would decidedly affect the Scottish electorate’s view given the current climate.

      UK gov need to have some control of any referendum and the smart play on their part would be to grant an S30 (agreement on outcomes) and attempt to pull the same stroke they did last time out. A purely consultative Scottish referendum (which would still carry popular mandate), or a snap SE would leave UK gov ‘officially’ out in the cold and they won’t like that.

      2018 should prove… interesting. 😉

    244. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Robert Peffers typed,

      “to end the Treaty of Union requires that whoever declares the Treaty ended must do so on the orders of a majority of the eligible voters in Scotland.

      Not just a mandate to hold another referendum. Not just a majority enough to be bigger than any other individual party but a greater than 50% of the entire electorate but excluding those who abstain.”

      Seems pretty clear to me. How then, can someone read the above and misunderstand it, to the extent of reading it as,

      “I totally disagree that to leave / end the Union requires 50% of ALL the population of Scotland to vote to end the Union.”

    245. Colin Alexander says:

      Yesindyref2 said: “Regards Scotland voting 62% Remain and 38% Leave, which I know you will point to Breeks, as do I, contrary to the overall UK vote, that is a Constitutional matter, and also a “Sovereign People” issue, and I would say it’s time has not come. Yet. But it will – if neccessary”.

      “that is a Constitutional matter, and also a “Sovereign People” issue”.

      So why did the SNP Scottish Govt argue this principle, only to go for Soft Brexit?

      That appears to be a volte-face.

      Unless, the penny dropped at last, and the FM and Scot Govt realised they are NOT the government of Scotland. Westminster is. They have NO sovereignty. They are Westminster’s lackeys. Nothing more.

      Even their democratic mandate via Holyrood elections, is a mandate to be Westminster’s lackeys. Devolution administrators.

      But Nicola Sturgeon or another SNP politician could have done a Gina Miller. Legal action as a private individual. But they didn’t.

    246. Cuilean says:

      My great grandparents were all Gaelic speakers who were moved or had to move from Gaelic areas to Scots English speaking areas. My grandparents could speak a little and parents not a jot other than some choice insults e.g. “Eat my shite you lowland whore/bastert etc’

      I have an old Gaelic dictionary where there is one word in Galic which always amuses me, as the English translation of the ONE Gaelic word is as follows’The death rattle of an emaciated cow’.

      I have waited all my life to hear that sound so I can turn to who ever is with me and say, in Gaelic, ‘Oh, that’s the death rattle of an emaciated cow’.

      Now I am very interested in the language and my children even more so.

    247. Colin Alexander says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      You missed out that the next sentence Mr Peffers typed: “Westminster has a record of counting abstainers as whatever way suits their barrow”.

      In that case, 50%+ of all registered voters would be needed.

    248. Colin Alexander says:

      As Mr Peffers pointed out, sovereignty lies with the people.

      The people of the kingdom of Scotland voted Remain.

      The SNP and so-called Scottish Government, had no right to go for so-called Soft Brexit or ANY Brexit.

      The people are sovereign, not the devolution administration at Holyrood.

    249. Thepnr says:


      When we do have Indyref2 will Westminster send in armed riot police to baton the voters?

      I very much doubt it as that will absolutely seal the end of Union.

    250. Macart says:


      Unlikely. Two entirely separate legal systems and an entirely different constitutional arrangement. The precedent has been set as of last indyref. If Scotland’s electorate vote for a thing, then they can have it. It’s always been about popular mandate.

      UK gov would struggle a bit to explain breaching both precedent and treaty. So long as Scotgov works within the devolved powers, there’s not much they can do.

    251. Breeks says:

      I appreciate what you’re saying Yesindyref2, but the same thorn in my side has been there since well before the YES referendum.

      I remember commenting about how misguided it was to put all our trust in members of a certain party who had revealed themselves to be pretty feckless and useless in local issues, to suddenly expect the same individuals to develop a level of cunning and sophistication equal to outsmarting the predictable strategies of Westminster.

      That “wait and see” rhetoric about what the SNP had up its sleeve was successful in containing dissent in the ranks, but I am by no means convinced we were better of because of it.

      To be specific, in 2014 we were waiting, and waiting, and waiting, for the SNP to address the issue of biased reporting. We were told to be measured in our criticism because complaining about a biased media would be used against us, and told to keep faith the SNP strategy.

      The truth was the SNP had no strategy for dealing with the media, and on the eve of the referendum the BBC was pumping out Gordon Brown’s propaganda on prime time TV, brazenly flouting the rules of Purdah, expressly to frighten Scottish pensioners about losing their pensions. It was aired on the BBC which had barely even been formally criticised for its bias except by a few important exceptions. I’m talking about Prof Robertson and G A Ponsonby, who in my opinion were badly let down and left exposed by the “body” of the YES campaign.

      The SNP says “Wheeshed! Trust the SNP to deliver! We know what we’re doing!

      Well I did wheesh myself in 2014, and I have repeatedly wheeshed myself time and time again since, but just because I stopping banging on about Sovereignty, please don’t think it’s because I feel reassured the SNP has got it covered.

      As far as I can see, IndyRef2 is passing by precisely the exact same route markers we passed in 2014 and still hasn’t any answer to the dreadful media distortions or Constitutional arguments.

      The SNP seems paralysed to commit itself to being in the EU or out of it. It expresses an aspirational preference to stay in, but develops central strategy consistent with Scotland’s reluctant exit. Personally, I find that very alarming because Scotland’s Remain Majority IS a sovereign mandate and constitutional red line which the Holyrood Government has already conceded. All I can see from my own personal perspective is a perfect Constitutional storm for the Union, but we are failing to capitalise on their chaotic misfortune, and we are letting them off the hook.

      The only “reassurance” I get when raising such concerns, which I believe are well founded, is being told to shut up and stop undermining Nicola Sturgeon.

      So here I sit, expected to throw my weight behind a campaign I desperately want to win, but which makes no sense to me, cannot be explained to anyone, seems flagrantly counterintuitive, but is apparently so sure of itself it can afford to ignore the media bias (again), and dispense with the Constitutional improprieties of Brexit which Westminster walks all over, and which Europe declares themselves powerless to observe.

      Don’t worry they say… we’re nearly there! Any day now the fight begins in earnest!

      Good. About time. But what does it mean? Are we finally ready to be Constitutional Myth-busters yet? Are we about to cite our sovereign credentials to take limited control of Broadcasting in order to break the Unionist monopoly on broadcast news? Or should I just be ready for another anticlimax?

    252. How many Colin Alexanders are there? Is it case sensitive sign in to post?

    253. Ron Maclean says:


      The Brexit referendum was UK wide but showed a Scottish preference to remain in the EU. Should we not therefore hold a second EU referendum prior to to Brexit aimed at the Scottish electorate only with an unambiguous question which makes that clear. A vote in opposition to Brexit would provide an opportunity for a legal challenge based on our sovereignty and loss of our EU citizenship and rights.

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, colin alexander twists what people post to give a different meaning. Either that or is thick as mince.

      I have a different view, but hope you continue to air your concerns. I’m keeping a beady eye on things too!

      I daresay Sturgeon is a little deliberately provocative at times!

    255. COLIN ALEXANDER says:

      @Ron MacLean

      I totally agree. I said the same thing myself. I keep being told the Scot Govt can hold any referendums they want that, now is not the time for indyref2; the EU ref was a UK question, not Scotland specific. So, I suggested hold a Scotland specific EU referendum. Still waiting.

    256. Colin Alexander says:


      Well said. I agree with every single word of your last post. So do many others of the non-commenting readers I’m sure, so NEVER let the SNP bullies silence you.

      @Yesindyref2 I had respect for you, that you were willing to debate with dissenters from the: SNP has all the answers mantra, until the bullies turned on you for being willing to do that. Then you fell in line with them. Now you act nasty like them with your insults.

      Face facts, aye the SNP got us indyref, but lost us the YES win.

      Since then, regarding independence, there has been no visible progress. Only the SNP worshippers believe this about secret plans and playing cards close to the chest stuff. Me? I’ll believe it when I see it.

      The SNP did stand up for Scottish sovereignty regarding Scotland’s EU membership vote, then did the opposite and fell in line with the UK Govt’s Brexit, working FOR Brexit ( just a different version from the UK Govt – soft v hard Brexit – and they want more devolution powers).

      Breeks is more polite, I’m a blunt Glaswegian: The SNP leadership have been a bloody shambles in the run up to indyref – and have gotten worse – with regards to working towards Scottish independence or even respect for Scottish sovereignty as EQUAL PARTNERS within the Union.

      The truth hurts, but sometimes the truth has to be told.

    257. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander
      Is there something about GFY you don’t understand?

    258. Thepnr says:

      What a fanny, bestest fanny ever on Wings.

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s a good laugh. Kind of like watching kids play pin the tail on the donkey.

      Yes, 10 out of 10 for entertainment value.

    260. Thepnr says:


      Tries his best, the funniest bit of all is that he still expects to be taken seriously. Hahaha.

    261. Gullane No4 says:

      Incompetent or accomplice.

      I like that description of the Unionist press.

      I suspect accomplice is ranked higher than incompetent.
      Surely they cannot be that thick.

    262. yesindyref2 says:

      Oooh-err, is there an even bigger story on the way than “The lost art of keeping a secret weapon” which now appears to be a story from 2015? Or is it just a case of duplicate titles having confused wordpress? Watch this space – or the right-hand next link at the bottom, currently blank!

    263. K1 says:

      They don’t like it up them dae they lol

    264. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      I too am a blunt Glaswegian, and you are being a tosser. What we are fighting for is to be treated equally within the Union.
      The problem is that a majority of people in 2014 stated that they did not want that privilege. Add to that fact our MP’s are outnumbered by dozens to one by English parliamentarians who vote down any proposition without discussion or debate and what do you have?

      Your way will inevitably lead to civil war and violence. That is fact. We will have to intimidate or eradicate opposition to obtain a majority if the conditions of the last referendum remain.

      Keep your violence Colin. Preach all you want about Scotland declareing UDI or arbitrarily going it’s own way without formality. It won’t work. Do you actually believe that extremist Unionists will sit back and accept such actions ?

      You mate are a shit stirrer. What are your motives? Only you know, but I suspect they are not for the good of independence.

    265. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      The Colin Alexander’s of this world are not here for the benefit of you or I. He’s either a total idiot or shit stirrer as you say.

      I believe he is both.

    266. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks, just saw that. Well, SiU may have give a bigger story than before, if the MSM decide they don’t like articles being forced off by lawyers. I think the likes of David Leask and Iain McWhirter call it “Freedom of the Press”.

      I’m sure they’ll be all over this, and it’ll even get a mention on the BBC and an exposure on Panaroma, followed by an interview on Hard Talk of the principals.

    267. Dr Jim says:

      Yes i’m a SNP bully and we forced Scotland into the position of nearly getting it’s Independence until Jackie Burd and Alistair Darling created a third illegal option on the ballot paper, let’s call it Devo Max said Jackie, so they did and the Nazis and the BBC were pleased

      So let it be written so let it be done

      So me and my bullying SNP are on the verge of of doing it again for Scotland despite the protestations and dirty tricks of the Nazi Tories and their Allies the media and of course the Dickheads who come on WOS on an every five minute basis to try to convince rational people that me and my bullying SNP are the enemies of Scotland so don’t vote for us

      That means vote for them, so who are “them”? what is their plan? what is their strategy? what indeed is their end game? by insisting that my party the bullying SNP who got us to within a whisker of Independence be dropped from your voting plan

      These persistant little lonely Trolls used to talk diarrhea now they are just straining constipated Arseholes with nothing coming out but smelly air

    268. Hamish100 says:


      I see the main story of the day or year is off air.

      Spanner in the works appears to be quite anxious on twitter.

      Seems he doesn’t like information in the public domain. Same view like those who don’t wan their secret bank accounts held abroad being disclosed. What a weakling.

      Quite certain that this issue is in the PUBLIC INTEREST not only for Scotland but for the Uk as a whole should we value a free news media and opposed to a totalitarian state. The shit has been stirred.

    269. Thepnr says:


      Whether the article goes back up again or not you can be certain this is the end of SiU and their £50K/year director. They’ve fucked up big style and done more damage to their cause than is possible if they hadn’t existed.

      Who now would trust them with a single bean? Only a fool and they’ve been had already. Goodbye SiU.

    270. Thepnr says:


      Not like you to use sweary words 🙂

    271. wull2 says:

      Don’t be put off, it just makes the YES movement more determined, anyway the list is out and I’m sure some wingers will have saved it to pass it on. YES.

    272. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, the way counter-intelligence works you don’t compromise an asset by open use of that asset’s material unles you’ve got other embedded assets.

      So I daresay these won’t be the only leaks …

    273. heedtracker says:

      Can we see the SiU lawyers letter please? Be great to see what Law they use, data protection probably.

    274. heedtracker says:

      The truth hurts, but sometimes the truth has to be told.

      Come back Rock, you’re sorely missed:D

    275. David Caledonia says:

      Have a happy and peaceful year everyone in 2018, and lang may yer lum reek

    276. Colin Alexander says:

      30 March 2017, the headlines read: Nicola Sturgeon writes to Theresa May to request a second independence referendum.

      Though I believe she asked for talks about a second indyref.

      What was the answer?

      Thank goodness for the Brexit mess, or Theresa May and the Tories would still be laughing.

    277. heedtracker says:

      Though I believe she asked for talks about a second indyref.

      What was the answer?

      For not the last time, Scotland cant hold referendums at the drop of a hat.

      Its just not how it works in the grand olde teamGB style of democracy, by billionaire owned msm reprobates, all led and coordinated by easily the most corrupt state broadcast of any western democracy.

      There really is no way to get around the BBC in Scotland and win indyref2, unless it is all about very clear choices, certainly not based on casual criticisms from likes of you Colin A.

      If we take your advice and do stop voting SNP, it really is all over for Scotland.

    278. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 30 December, 2017 at 2:34 am:

      “@Robert Peffers: “Unilateral Declaration of Independence. noun.
      1. a declaration of independence made by a dependent state without the assent of the protecting state.”
      I never thought to look that up. Very interesting Robert. Also interesting to go along with that are:”

      That is the real problem, Yesindyref2, you hit the nail on the head – not nearly enough people have thought to look it up..

      When they do the eyes begin to open and the true legal implications, (and the, seemingly unimportant, distortions of the English language by many succeeding generations of Westminster Establishment Yoons), begins to make very clear sense to those who can be bothered.

      The journey once began results in understanding just how Westminster has operated its propaganda since before the Treaty of Union negotiations even began.

      As the guy on the Mastermind TV show says to the person in the big Master Mind leather chair, “I’ve started, so I’ll finish.” when end of questions alarm sounds.

      Now you have started and it really isn’t a very long journey.
      You are now going to understand just why it is so important to use the seemingly unimportant terminology 100% correctly all the time. If you do and have the courage to face down the officialdom of Yoons who have always used the wrong terms then the battle is over for Westminster.

      Imagine Theresa May on the platform spouting claptrap and a member of the public protests to the chairperson that the Prime Minister is in error when she spoke about, “The country”, as Britain is not a country and Westminster doesn’t govern all of it anyway. The chair has to immediately rule the wee man in the audience is right and the PM of The United Kingdom is Wrong.

      If the chair does not and thus attempts to say the United Kingdom is indeed really a country then the chair has to bring proof to back up that decision. Even it that is allowed to pass there will be those in the audience who will begins to question the chairs decision and discussion about the real legal facts has begun. As we say in Scotland, “The Westminster ba’ is oan the slates for there is no such proof of the facts as Westminster interprets them.”

      Go to YouTube and watch just about any televised programme with unionist leaders making pronouncements and in just about every phrase they use there will be those distortions. If we pull them up as often as we can the attention of the electorate will awake and start to realise they have been distorting everything for centuries and the distortions remain on record for evermore. It is just a matter of getting the attention of the voters drawn to the real facts and truth.

    279. Ken500 says:

      Oh the spoilsports have tried to killed the ‘story’, and all the fun. They certainly do not appreciate openness or democracy. Or democratic choice or thought. What a bunch of losers. People laugh at them. Totally obsessive. Thevwripples are being spread far and wide. Another Wings exclusive. Thanks to the mole and the amateurs. They are not fit for public political action breaking all the Electoral and data protection Laws. No wonder folk will be furious. People laugh at them. At least they are having to pay more taxes.

      Along with the University Prifessors who pay half their remuneration in taxes. Most of which gives down to Westminster. At least now it remains in Scotland. Kenna wants them on the minimum wage. The SNP Gov has done something about it now the University Courts will be involved in agreeing remuneration. Not the Professors etc alone. Again major opposition but it was done, Although education deserves it’s weigh in gold as an investment in the economy. Health and education the most important investment of all. Less than the unionist awards in the south and international remuneration. Totally important. Supported by the majority of people. They bring in EU funds. It pays for their remuneration. .

      How much does an ignorant hack earn in remuneration and expenses when they can’t even do a minimum of research. On the internet even. Their industry going down the drain. The education system blooms. Most academics do masses of important research. In medicine, the Arts etc. Keeping people alive and informed. Ignorant hacks support illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion, They are paid by tax evading Non Doms, manipulating the ‘News’. Many are the dishonest enemy of the people.

      University academics do research which funds them out. Most are altruistic. Chosing public sevice rather than the dollar. They cost nothing but are funded by their own activities and their special talents bringing £Millions/Billions into Scotland. In research projects etc. Then sold on. Talented and able. Look at what the games industry bring in through Dundee uni. £Billions. The list is never ending. World class medical research and advancement benefitting the whole of humanity. Telecommunications etc. Computer research. Often spin off patents and remuneration. Computer research manufacted and exported. Programmes developed.Design, architecture, world class. and technology the list is endless. Engineering. Oil & Gas technology and development. World class. Bringing £Billions into Scotland. Scotland the country of invention through education and the university activity. Worth their weigh in gold.

      Except for some the unionist appointed ones. From unionist patronage by joining a unionist Party getting privileges. It even brings them false, hypocritical honours. Fifty years of lying Labour and public funded reports. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. The unionists have cut funding for Education and the NHS. £10Billion a year.. £7Billion in real terms. £3Billion they will not get back from students, especially in the south saddled with massive debts. They are wasting £Billions (from Scotland) on grotesque projects of no value . Education is one most important investment ever. Pays for itself. An investment in society. To have health, wealth and a successful happy society.

    280. Colin Alexander says:

      @Bob Mack

      The people were not asked for approval of Westminster rule and for Scotland to be treated equally within the Union.

      They answered the question: Should Scotland be an independent country?

      With the poor economic arguments put forward by the SNP, especially things such as sharing the pound – and continuing EU membership when the EU wouldn’t back that up – it undermined public confidence in the whole arguments for independence.

      For one thing, sharing the pound and Scots law having to be compatible with EU legislation means we wouldn’t have been independent, sovereign Yes, but in two unions, monetary union with rUK and political and economic Union with the EU.

      But then both these two potential partners of any future unions rubbished the unions that Alex Salmond was stating were a dead cert to happen.

      It discredited and undermined the whole YES campaign.

      Let me make it clear: I have never supported or encouraged violence. I’m not the one that uses intimidatory abusive and obscene language against people. I leave that to the SNP worshippers who threaten the heretics.

      As for extremist Unionists would never accept independence. George Square 2014?

      And that was indyref with the Edinburgh Agreement gentlemen’s agreement to abide by the result etc.

      You are entitled to your opinions about me but, I don’t care what you or Alex Clark or anyone online thinks of me.

      What are my motives? I want independence or at the very least, Scotland’s sovereignty active and operating within the Union, with the end of WM dominance and devolution Mickey Mouse government in Scotland.

      Like Breeks, I had serious doubts about aspects of the indy1 campaign, but kept my criticisms to myself, as I campaigned daily by letter writing to newspapers and speaking to friends and family to encourage support for YES.

      I didn’t preach to the converted on here, I debated and promoted indy. I argued for independence. I got the Unionist’s abuse, so name calling from SNP worshipping Wingers is water off a duck’s back.

      This time I’ve spoke out before it’s too late, trying to get people to stop the SNP from messing it up again.

      It’s fallen on deaf ears, but at least I tried.

    281. heedtracker says:

      This time I’ve spoke out before it’s too late, trying to get people to stop the SNP from messing it up again”

      We’ve got a dude at work like you Colin A, “I voted YES last time but never again,” is all we get over and over. He’s as big phony as you.

    282. Ken500 says:

      Least thinks it’s OK. Irrelevant. @Twitter. These hacks are just an embarrassmnt. Along with their mates in Scots in Union or whatvever it is called. They want freedom of speech but only for themselves and their unionist Gov. Their arrogance is astounding. Always deleting and banning people. They can talk the talk but no walk the walk. Established by reputable Uni research years ago.

      The bias in the Westminster right wing supporting. Murdoch right wing bias illegally established by Thatcher. To make them both extremely wealthy. Illegally funded by public money. It is all documented in Official papers. Handing over the Press to right wing support and control. Breaking the UK political code of practice. Sworn to by elected Gov officials PM’s. Breaking all the rules. Including enforcing the tax Laws. Like the tax havens established by Thatcher. So she and her cronies could tax evade and illegally starve citizens to death.

      Murdoch Breaking business laws. Illegally hacking and surveilling the public, bribing public officials. Lying and destroying the evidence. Claiming ignorance. All punishable by prison. Walks away. Not a sanction. It is illegal under US business law for US citizens to bribe a public official anywhere in the world,

    283. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 30 December, 2017 at 2:39 am:

      “… but of course Scotland is not a subdivision of a country, nor is it a region.”
      Didn’t complete that sentence, should be:
      “… but of course Scotland is not a subdivision of a country, nor is it a region. Scotland is a country in our own right.”

      True but not enough – NOT YET: Scotland is indeed a country in her own right but Scotland is also a fully equally sovereign Kingdom in her own right. The Country of England is also a country in her own right but the country of England IS NOT also a Kingdom in her own right. That’s is the big difference that Westminster is distorting.

      The United Kingdom is a two party, (bipartite), union of Kingdoms it is NOT a union of countries and if it were it would be a four country union of countries. The Kingdom of England contains three individual countries two of which the then kingdom and country of England forced, by warfare, to become part of the kingdom of England.

      That is why there was a Treaty of Union forced upon Scotland by illegal undercover work of spies, the use of the English Navigation Acts, bribery of Scots MPs and massed troops gathered on the Scottish/English borders. However, that treaty was a Treaty of Kingdoms and each of the two parties are/were equally sovereign kingdoms.

      One kingdom + One Kingdom = One United Kingdom — It does not add up to one United Country. Especially when one of the partner kingdoms is composed of three distinct countries.

      There are only the signatures of the two, equally sovereign, Kingdoms representatives on the Treaty document and none from Ireland and Wales because these were already parts of the Kingdom, but not the country, of England.

      There is the biggest lie of all – Westminster claims to be the Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom but it operates as the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England. This is even more apparent since Westminster was forced into devolving powers to the three other countries in the United Kingdom.

      However, because there was no devolution to the country of England Westminster was inadvertently exposing its lies so was in effect devolving the country of England’s powers to the other three countries but Scotland alone was not just another English annexed country but a fully equally sovereign partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom.

      Why the Scottish electorate still cannot clearly see the real truth has always flown right over my head for I not only saw it but saw it was going to happen before devolution actually came about.

      The instant that Westminster did not devolve United Kingdom powers to the country of England should have ended the United Kingdom on the spot. For at that instant the United Kingdom parliament became the unelected as such de facto parliament of the country of England.

    284. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “a Treaty of Union forced upon Scotland by illegal undercover work of spies, the use of the English Navigation Acts, bribery of Scots MPs and massed troops gathered on the Scottish/English borders

      Plus a fleet of some sort in the Forth I think, and threats to the families of members of that Parliament. It’s likely a reason the parliament wasn’t reconvened, as perhaps it wasn’t going to dissolve itself it was going to repeal the Act of Union with England before the 1st of May, the implementation date.

      Hence the Queensberry “Royal proclamation” that dissolved the Parliament a day or two before 1st May as the Union couldn’t have gone ahead without its dissolution, and I have to wonder if that proclamation by the Queen’s High Commissioner was actually legal before the 1st May – a Catch-22 situation.

    285. Robert Peffers says:

      @Charles says: 30 December, 2017 at 7:29 am:

      “Glad you are using the donations you recieve from Gaelic speakers and those sympathetic to its revival…to undermine them.
      Why dont you waste more money asking what film they like…oh wait.”

      Just a though, Charles, (and I hope your Gaelic grammar and spelling are much better than your English grammar and spelling), but just how many languages of Scotland do you claim there are?

      I have already mentioned two and made references to a, unique to Scotland, dialect of the English Language spoken in Scotland known as, “Scottish Standard English”, that is predominantly spoken in the West of Scotland and called by many Scots as, “Weegie”. Which, BTW, is not an insult as so often construed but simply a contraction of the term, “Glaswegian”.

      It certainly uses many words from Lowland Scots and Scots Gaelic but is in fact a dialect of the English Language. There are, however, many from Glasgow who can, and do, speak Gaelic and Lowland Scots.

      But here is the point – far more taxpayers money is spent on the Gaelic language than has ever been spent by any Scottish Government on Lowland Scots – a language that has existed for at least as long as has the English language.

    286. Robert Peffers says:

      @mr thms says: 30 December, 2017 at 8:51 am:

      “At the time, most of the mainstream media said Scotland would become a new state and the rest of the U.K. would become the successor state.
      Had there been a Yes vote in a Scottish referendum, would the U.K.have had to leave the EU?”

      Come on, Mr thms, before commenting put on your thinking cap.

      I’m really getting tired of having to explain the very same points over and over again when just a little clear thought by the commenter should be all that is requires. But here we go again:-

      The United Kingdom is legally a two partner union of Kingdoms.

      It is not legally a four country union of countries.

      Neither is the United Kingdom other than a Kingdom formed by two equally sovereign former independent, of each other, Kingdoms.

      Thus if either partner kingdom decides it cannot continue in the two kingdom United Kingdom partnership, (for whatever reason), then what remains is not a United Kingdom of any sort whatsoever.

      The three country Kingdom of England came into the United Kingdom partnership as a single sovereign kingdom and it will go out again as a single sovereign kingdom.

      The Kingdom of England is composed of the original Kingdom of England that annexed the principality of Wales by the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284 and annexed all of the kingdom of Ireland in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland Act passed by the Irish parliament under the direction of the, “Lord of Ireland”, who was the King of England.

      Thus the Kingdom of England that united with the Kingdom of Scotland is a sovereign Kingdom comprised of the three distinct countries of England, Wales and what remains of the former Kingdom of Ireland before the south of Ireland became a Republic.

      Just how could the three country Kingdom of England join the United Kingdom as a sovereign kingdom but then leave it as still being a united Kingdom? There are only two kingdoms signatures on the Treaty of Union.

    287. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 30 December, 2017 at 9:09 am:

      “What I find exasperating is that Scotland’s decision to end the Union would be sovereign, so it is implicit that Scotland does have the capacity to make a sovereign decision. So why isn’t Holyrood confident in presenting itself as a credible sovereign interlocutor to Europe and insisting that Europe respects Scotland’s capacity to act independently from the UK?

      Sheesh! please, not again, Breeks.

      The reason has been explained many times before – because, in the first place, whether it likes it or not, Holyrood is a devolved part of the United Kingdom Government and thus must remain, (except under only one circumstance), within the devolved powers given it by Westminster. That one circumstance is because, under the Scottish Rule of Law, the people of Scotland and thus neither the crown nor the Westminster Parliament are the sovereign authority. So unless Holyrood is instructed, (has a specific mandate), from a clear majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland, (not including abstainers), then Holyrood has not the sovereignty of the people of Scotland but only, (the legally doubtful), sovereignty of Queen Elizabeth who has legally, (as Queen of England), legally delegated her English kingdom’s sovereignty to Westminster who have, (doubtfully), delegated their delegated sovereignty to Holyrood.

      Now I’m going no further into the rest of your long comment as the above should explain anything else. It really isn’t that complex.

      The United Kingdom is a two kingdom partnership of two equally sovereign Kingdoms – the fact that the English Kingdom is composed of three countries is neither here nor there.

      If either equally sovereign kingdom decides to leaves the union of kingdoms there is no United Kingdom left.

      The problem is that the monarch common to both kingdoms is only legally sovereign in one of the kingdoms and the people of the other are sovereign in the other kingdom.

      Westminster operates as the legally delegated deputy of the sovereign of the English Kingdom and thus the Westminster delegated, (devolved), powers of Holyrood come from the Queen of England via her legally delegated parliament at Westminster that has never been elected as such since April 1707.

      There is actually no such parliament as the Parliament of the Kingdom of England – Westminster is elected as the Parliament of the United Kingdom. So just where is the parliament of the country of England?

      So there is the problem – the sovereignty of the Kingdom of Scotland legally rests with the people of Scotland and, to date, they have never given their sovereign majority to anyone or any organisation to withdraw from the United Kingdom. Furthermore, the SNP cannot directly ask for that sovereignty they must wait until it is given to them or they could/would be accused of declaring UDI. Nicola Sturgeon has come as close as she dare to inviting us to lend her our legal sovereignty. Until we do she is working under Westminster’s devolved powers and has no real legal way to question it. Need I remind you that every elected person is sworn in as being loyal to the royal person.

    288. Pepsi andShirley says:

      Interestingly most Gaelic speakers were NO voters. Any attempt to support it is middle class projection and Donegal Granny syndrome (LOL when Gaelic speakers are mostly highly Conservative protestants) ah the few that remain. But don’t let that stop the faux liberal middle class who want to speak it but don’t want the egalitarianism of island culture. Because darling Torcuil must not speak like he’s from the scheme. But he will speak Gaelic. Joke. They stole our culture. Cultural appropriation. Gaelic schools with no Gaels. Speaking staff =Joke. I could go on but who would understand?

    289. Liz g says:

      Pepsi and Shirley @ 12.26
      I think the whole point was to try to mainstream Gaelic.
      To open it up to the people in the scheme and not leave it to become something that the middle class use to showcase that their kids are exceptional.
      Takin it back if ye like.
      Make it as regular a choice in the schools as French!
      And how someone votes should even come into it,because it’s a separate issue from independence, why this ever got politicised is beyond me.

    290. Eckle Fechan says:

      GAELIC – my favourite guitar tuning*. In the right hands, sounds as beautiful as the natural language.

      * (c)Tony McManus…

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