Not all information wants to be free
Posted on
December 13, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We got a letter from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office today. We opened it, read it, and – if we might paraphrase for a moment – it said we were suckers.
Now, it’s not terribly unusual to get fobbed off with a Freedom Of Information request. But we were mildly surprised this time, because we sent this particular request right after the Sunday Post revealed that the very same category of information HAD been deemed to be something the public was entitled to see, so long as it was held by the Scottish Government rather than the UK one.
We’re not sure we understand the difference. Can anyone help?
The UK Executive is a proper government whereas the Scottish Government is just an executive, will be the difference.
The difference is how the respective governments balanced out the competing interests in making their decision. In short the FCO decided to shaft you.
Worth an appeal though, but the problem with this sort of thing is that it is heavily weighted in favour of the decision-maker, particularly if they have asked themselves the correct question, but have just reached an answer you didn’t like.
Do we really need to know how much they were paid? It was too much whatever it was as their analysis was pretty weak overall, and downright amateurish in in a few key areas. Though it is always worth returning the points they make repeatedly about any legal view on the EU issue being “speculative”, and that everything would essentially come down to negotiation.
Cuz we’re poor. Stupid, wee and poor. And mugs. Does that about cover it?
Westminster is sovereign, Holyrood is devolved.
Got it now, Jock?
What a load of gobbledygook. So release of information will damage an individual’s commercial interests and would make it more difficult for them to be able to conduct commercial transactions.
As any lawyer will give you a fee quote and their hourly charge out rate, isn’t this saying the UK government did not pay a market rate for the advice. If a market rate had been paid then there is no way an individual’s commercial interests could possibly be damaged upon release of any information. Surely it is therefore in the public interest to understand what the non-market fee was?
We’re not sure we understand the difference. Can anyone help?
OK, one last time. These MSPs are small… but the MPs down there they are far away. Small… far away… ah forget it!
Sorry, Rev I have no idea why they should be any difference, except perhaps that the Scottish Government treats its FoI requests within both the law and the spirit of the law. Westminster, and its assorted agencies etc. do not want to give any information about their activities to anyone. Was it not Blair who said his worst mistake in Government was the FoI legislation?
To be frank, I do not see the point of “transparency” legislation if there are so many get-out clauses.
Would not surprise me if there Freedom Of Information list of people just to be palmed off and not to be given answers even if they are reasonable questions to be asked, Would not put it past them. Westminster has probably spent millions to produce their project fear papers.
I would have thought that non disclosure would have prejudiced the commercial interests of independent legal advisors more than disclosure.
Maybe those whose contract details were forced out by the FoI request on the Scottish government should sue for breach of commercial confidentiality. There seems a legal defence there.
Is it coz i is black?
The explanation is quite simple – Adrian Halfyard is a pseudonym of Sir Humphrey Appleby.
One government has nothing to hide, so is quite happy to provide details, particularly as those details just go to show that they cannot be accused of not being diligent.
The other government, on the other hand…
Because You are on their “Sod off” list
Let’s face it, the British State will do feck all that might harm its interests. And one of their well paid, titled judges will agree with them if you had the damn cheek to take them to court.
The Foreign & Commonwealth Office has a ‘Devolution Unit’ ? Who knew? Is this for overseas countries that are or want to be devolved?
Seriously why would a Government department that deals exclusively with Foreign affairs want with a ‘Devolution unit’
Or is it Government speak for a propaganda unit dedicated to misleading and lying to the devolved nations within the UK?
I’m still waiting for ALL the papers pertaining to Scottish devolution being made public. Something to hide? I bet they have!
These people just make me jump up and down in rage, roll on September 19th 2014 what a day that will be.
@Doug:
I really hope we can get that narrative out there. Unfortunately, everyone knows that “if you’ve got nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to worry about” is a lie for ordinary people, convincing them that it’s because of the power imbalance between people and state, and that it does really apply in reverse might be more effort than is possible.
OT I see it’s kicking off again about the EU – Mr Van Rompy-pompy has been bumping his gums. All he has said appears to relate to Catalonia, but that hasn’t stopped the BBC applying it to Scotland.
Here’s what he said. At no point does he mention Scotland
link to consilium.europa.eu
I won’t link to the BBC report – just depressing. Will these imbeciles ever differentiate from a legal consensual decision and an illegal unconstitutional one?
I’d imagine the difference is that it suits them not to release it, the Westminster Government, only do things thats in there interest, heaven forbid, doing something for the people they serve, and I retain the right to switch the word serve with. fleece at my discretion.
O/T I do apologise.
I see Alistair Carmichael was taken to task yesterday by the Holyrood health committee, over figures published by the child Poverty Action Group, who stated 100.000 Scottish children, are likely to be living in poverty in Scotland, under this Tory, Lib/Dem Government.
When questioned on the matter, the so called Secetery of State for (against) Scotland, huffed and puffed his way through the session, not knowing answers to many of the questions, and indeed at one stage Carmichael had to ask an aide to fetch the desired paperwork.
When asked about George Osborne’s autumn statement and how it would affect child poverty Carmichael blurted out in a buffoonish manner, “I don’t have the figures to hand”. Translated to I’ve no idea.
To think this is the man, who represents Scotlands interests at Westminster
That’s a cast-iron 100% complaint to the ICO right there…
Jamie Arriere
I wonder if van rumpled suit’s speech has anything to do with him being given an honorary doctorate at the University of CEU San Pablo in Madrid?
link to twitter.com
The Press release from the EU, put it as ‘remarks’ while in Madrid
link to consilium.europa.eu
Maybe its because were no forgein afterawe, you need tae wait tae efter we re Independent , then who gives a Fud
Jamie Arriere
Just further, here is ‘tvnewsroom’ copies of the press conference, its split into 4 parts, I think you can start at part 3 with rumpled jacket’s start of his speil
link to tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu
I heard a little bit of GMS, and a female guest/prof? from Glasgow Uni was saying that van Rompy was just making political noises.
No doubt that section will have been cut from later episodes?
Andy B
You have it the wrong way round. Carmichae represents westminster wishes in Scotland. It’s was the same with Rifkin etc.
Edward,
Quite a coincidence that, isn’t it? A good politician knows his audience. Maybe Edinburgh Uni should do the same, and see what he says while he’s here.
Jamie Arriere
The actual Q&A session in which the rumple one gives his ‘remarks’ about Catalonia are here
in part 4 link to tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu
By the rumpled suit retires next year
Jamie Arriere
Yeah your right, offer a doctorate and raise a fellowship for Edinburgh Uni, see how that panders to the rumpled suit
Mind you I think San Pablo is a minor uni, so might get away with a college degree
On the EU, is there some reason that the Scottish Government don’t simply turn on Westminster and demand that they ASK THE QUESTION?
I can only think it must suit the YES campaign to hold back for now, otherwise why not hound the no campaign for an answer? Timing is important of course, but issues like this, repeatedly dragged out in the media, must be turning people off the referendum and undermining confidence in our case. Am I missing something?
When I put some rough figures together to estimate the cost of the “Scotland Analysis” documents 2 months ago, I came up with £980k (I used to commission reports/be involved in procurement when I was a UK government official), but I didn’t realise then that Scots were paying our population share of the bill for part of the FCO, as well as other parts of the Whitehall machinery, to produce propaganda against us.
I reckon that will take the bill (so far) for the ‘Scotland Analysis Programme’ to over £1 million (our share being around £84k).
I tried to find out what the FCO Devolution Unit officially does/is supposed to do. All I have found so far refers to Wales:
“The FCO Devolution Unit provides a link between the FCO and the Wales Office and
Welsh Government, to ensure that the particular interests of the people in Wales are
reflected in and promoted through the UK’s foreign policy.”
Nothing about fighting the good fight against restless natives in the ‘home nations’.
On the EU, is there some reason that the Scottish Government don’t simply turn on Westminster and demand that they ASK THE QUESTION?
The FM has made this point in the last 2 weeks at FMQ’s when responding to Ruth Davidson….
I suspect there are strategic reasons why they are holding back….if Westminister fails to comply with the electoral Commission by Dec 20th then the Scottish Govt can then turn round and point out the uncertainty is not being caused by them but the No Campaign.
Using it then amplifies it’s effect…..now it would just sound like a rebuttal…..then it’s part of a long charge sheet against Westminister.
Hard to see how the No side can maintain is ‘non-cooperation’ stance for another 10 months
I see Rompy-pompy retires in November next year – weeks after ours and Catalonia’s referenda. I wonder if they’ll be lining up a replacement by then?
If he does come over here, I hope the Scottish Government get to him before the BBC does.
Can’t help but feel the Catalans, by deciding to slip stream our referendum push in order to add extra force to their own ‘non constitutional’ referendum in Nov 2014, they have damaged our cause.
They have now allowed Madrid to go full speed ahead with it’s anti Catalonia in Europe scare policy. It will mean a year of Spanish/EU official responses to the scenario of Catalonia without agreement, declaring UDI.
This scenario will most likely mean an official EU response declaring a newly Indy Catalonia outside Europe. Catalans are very pro European and the Spanish Government will hope to frighten the population with official EU warnings of exclusion and vito. Westminster will back them up.
Westminster will continue to refuse to contact the EU with questions relating to Scotland’s specific agreed independence scenario and our expected position post YES vote. In this way, The BBC, MSM and other broadcast media can then report and conflate all the Catalan specific EU and Spanish arguments as ‘obviously’ equally relevant to Scotland’s situation.
That way we will now see acres of EU scare stories reported in our press throughout our official campaign period ending in a crescendo on the day of the vote.
I am sure that Cameron will be able to ask the Spanish PM for the odd, well timed EU fearbomb, delivered when felt to be most effective. It is after all, thanks to the Catalan decision on their referendum timing, certainly now in the interests of the Spanish Government as well as the UK’s, to secure a NO vote in our referendum in September 2014.
I do not think the Catalan Independence leadership has not helped us here and I am not very happy about it!
Can someone reassure me? Please.
1.Catalonia is an ancient nation with disputed borders…..not like Scotland
2.Scotland is an ancient nation with clearly defined borders and co founder of the United Kingdom….there is a legal argument that without Scotland the UK does not exist either…..so not like Catalonia/Spain
3.There are also umpteen Legal authorities without any links to the Scottish Govt. who think and have stated quite clearly that (and I’m paraphrasing here) Van Rumpoy, Rajoy & Baroso are talking oot their arse regarding EU Law on this
4. The EU believes in self determination…..it would place it in an almost untenable position on the world stage if it denied it’s own citizens the same rights it demands from Russia, China, Syria Turkey etc regarding ‘separatist groups’ in their countries
5.Better Togethers straw men are now all out……this scare story is a reheat of a reheated scare story from 12 months back….so the Yes campaign can now stroll down and torch these strawmen at it’s own leisure in the next 10 months….
There’s just 5 straight of the top of my head…..Actually…..
6. This advice from Van Rumpoy clearly states…..’In Relation to Catalonia‘…..
There you go….problem solved
I have no idea why we are still getting hung up on the EU issue.
Our position should be “We are completely confident that Scotland in the EU – like Denmark – or out of the EU – like Norway – will manage just fine”.
This would suit most of our people who, I have to say, show no overwhelming interest or worry about this issue.
Don’t agrre with Braco,by the way. I think the Catalan decision to defy Madrid will do us no harm whatsover
The GreatBaldo,
Not how ‘our’ press will report on it though, is it?
Braco – You’re sitting with a glass half empty there mate. What if the EU makes clear Catalonia would negotiate the details of its continued membership of the EU before independence day – as proposed in Scotland? That would blow the issue out the water.
Copy of ‘Scotland’s Future’ arrived today.
What a handsome volume it is too – nice big margins so you don’t have to crack it in half to read, and a very generous font-size. Some lovely pictures as well – a stunning photo of Andy Scott’s ‘Kelpies’ illustrates the Chapter One title page.
Very impressive. (I dare say even Darling and his BT buddies will privately be admitting as much, whether they’ve any intention of reading it or not.)
Not how ‘our’ press will report on it though, is it?
I dunno….the Sunday Herald and (unbelievably) The Sun will probably allow the Scottish Govt. to makes it’s case….and once the official campaign starts after the Euro Elections then the Beeb, STV, SKY and every radio station will be obliged by law to give balanced coverage.
And to be honest with you the impact of the press in the internet age is not what it was even 10 years ago, especially since The Rangers Tax Case, the Scottish people have learned when their being sold bullshit and how to use the internet to get to the real unspun facts.
I think Rev said during the White Paper launch this site alone took over 100,000 hits a day…..I don’t think 3 to 4 times that number will be on here in the final weeks & days of the campaign is an unreasonable estimate many of whom will be ‘Don’t knows’
Beachthistle,
The FCO Devolution Unit are complicit in pushing the Scotland Analysis papers into the EU through the EU & EC British Ambassadors. Heads of Station are expected to report back reactions to the series of papers & requests for further information directly to the FCO Devo Unit. Lines to take are provided, most are in complete denial of the possibility of a Yes vote being returned.
We are being beaten with our own stick that has democracy burned into the handle. Furthermore, certain flavours of Civil Servant are denied/forbidden engaging with the Scottish Govt over matters of Defence, yet are encouraged to support the Whitehall/Westminster machine, members of MoD staff who are members of the Armed Forces are expected to advise ministers of UK Government but ignore Scottish Government.
Democracy…..where art thou?
Given the stushie between Westminster and Spain over Gibralter, I don’t uderstand why Spain would do anything to favour UK. So something doesn’t quite add up here. Unless, maybe Dave’s done a backroom deal offering the Spanish joint sovereignty over Gib or somesuch, in exchange for a united stance against Scot + Catalonia indy?
Thanks Cèitean, very well put.
I don’t think that the ‘diplomatic’ activity around the ‘Scotland Analysis’ papers is going to have any actual impact as to how people will vote though. It is mainly a face-saving strategy, albeit one based on spin/denial/believing their own propaganda – the last of which will be the main reason that Yes will win: the more that the Whitehall/Westminster/Fleet St regime believe that they are winning and that there is no chance of a Yes vote, the more mistakes/misjudgements they will make – and ironically, the bigger their loss of face internationally is going to be.
The UK establishment is too blinkered and pompous to see that they could gain a lot of global credibility and respect, plus new international friends, if they were seen to be relaxed and helpful re Scotland’s bid for self-determination. Instead they are sadly, predictably, digging a hole for themselves and reinforcing the view that most of the rest of the world already has of them: arrogant, untrustworthy, etc.
@TJenny
Gibraltar. Careful of treasonable thoughts young lady!
Don’t know if anyone’s linked to this yet, but Rev Tweeted it earlier. You may want to secure your jaw before opening this. I thought it was someone at the wind-up, but it seems not:
link to publications.parliament.uk
I demand an annual Bank Holiday to celebrate “Ding Dong the witch is dead”
@Ian
But NOT appropriate in Scotland! Maybe a wise thing that. Frankly what the rUK calls a holiday is not of the slightest interest to me.
“This Act extends to England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”
Robert Kerr – Ooh, er! But seriously, surely I can’t be the only one who thinks there’s something iffy about this Westminster/ Madrid solidarity?
@Tony Little –
Ha! I must go back and read the small print.
Anyway, I’m sure it’ll go down a treat in Wales and N Ireland…
“Can someone reassure me? Please.”
Sorry I concur, except to add that the present situation was encouraged by quite a few pro-indy (in intent) Scots, mostly of the lefty/republican persuasion.
All attempts to get them to see sense on this, something that some of us have tried to do for many years now, fell on deaf egos.
Catalan nationalists have damaged Scotland’s chances AND their own.
As I’ve said many times, a far cleverer approach even from the point of view of their own self interest, would have been to play shtum until Scotland gained independence.
@TJenny
Only if you think Better Together to be iffy. Its quite obvious that Gibraltar is Better Together with Spain, they’ve been joined for millions of years. So much shared for so long, the granny in Gibraltar should show solidarity with the granny in Granada; to paraphrase a speach by D Alexander (either).
@Ian
Been there, done that!
No prob
Why is the F & C office involved at all in any of this? Are we already foreign?
In any case if you realise that the F&C office is already guilty of crimes against humanity, as judged by the English high court, but remain immune, then piffling FOI questions are very small beer indeed.
@TGB
with apologies, but I lifted some of your bullet points about Catalonia for a comment on the Herald. Hope that’s OK
Chic McGregor,
I would have thought playing it cool and laying low would have made the most sense for the Catalans too. By trying to slip stream like this, they are really stirring up a bit of an EU shitstorm for us.
The only reason I can see for their thinking, is that by following us with a quick Yes vote too (assuming we manage ours now, with all their ‘help’) The EU will have less time to separate out the specifics of each case and so be more likely to see both newly independent countries in the same positive light, even though Catalan’s vote was viewed ‘un constitutional’ by Madrid.
Even so, I think it was a very foolish and unprofessional move for their leadership to make and something that really could damage both our causes.
I can see this being used to close down and shorten any benefit we may have enjoyed from press coverage of a big UKIP campaign (or even win) in the Euro Elections. A couple of well timed and juicy Spanish/EU Statements about exclusion, vito and watnot ,along with the attached Unionist spin, would be enough of an excuse to change media focus from ‘UK unsure of EU future’ headlines into another installment of that old familiar, ‘EU unsure of Independent Scotland’s future’ story.
Am I being paranoid, unfortunately I don’t think so.
Roboscot,
The EU will not countenance an unconstitutional break up of Spain. That’s why the SNP put such store in the Edinburgh Agreement. The Catalans will not get an equivalent, and so the EU will certainly not ‘make clear Catalonia would negotiate the details of its continued membership of the EU before independence day – as proposed in Scotland?’
In fact it’s more likely the EU will spin a much harder line on the Catalan situation than they would on ours, but Westminster will not be asking about the EU’s view on Scotland. Instead Spain will be asking about Catalonia’s EU position and the EU responses will be conflated by ‘our’ media and used to hammer us.
I am not happy tonight!
@Tony Little –
Shouldn’t BT be kicking up a fuss about this ‘Margaret Thatcher Day’ stuff? If we’re truly part of the union then it’s heart and soul, for better or worse etc – we should be as entitled to that holiday as anyone else on the basis that we were all UK citizens during Thatcher’s reign, sorry, tenure.
If they won’t give us that last Monday in August to ‘show our respect’ for Lady Thatcher? we should just take it anyway, given that we have more reason than most to remember her.
Sort of on topic, yr not the only one having a peck at the bbc.
link to monbiot.com
“It’s hard to understand how the BBC can sustain its bizarre position, unless it’s content for people to see it as an organisation incapable of upholding the most basic standards of journalism. Eventually, if enough people complain, and pursue those complaints, I believe it will have to change its policy: the gulf between its editorial guidelines and editorial practice is just too great.”
“then the Beeb, STV, SKY and every radio station will be obliged by law to give balanced coverage.”
This sounds lovely, these legal obligations could work for all sorts of things, imagine , no more violent crime.
I could imagine there being a ‘Mandela’ day, or a ‘Ghandi’ day, but a Maggie thatcher day is plain idiocy and insulting to the people who’s lives she ruined with her very right wing and self centred ideals, ‘no such thing as society’, she meant that. May she rot in hell.
“a Maggie thatcher day is plain idiocy”
Even if we make it November 5th?
The answer is that this information is far too embarrassing and therefore we cannot possibly tell you. I trust you are satisfied with this answer. How the fuck would anybody be satisfied with a “we are not telling you”? That should have been a “I appreciate you will disappointed in this response” Artless buffoons.
At the risk of going all melodramatic about it, every fucking day is ‘Margaret Thatcher Day’ for some people, for the simple reason that she made it acceptable to be a ruthless, self-serving bastard – the so-called ‘British Disease’ was a readymade myth for well-groomed neo-liberals to take full advantage of. Some will celebrate that, for sure, but most of us associate her with hopelessness and genuine despair.
We should never ever fall for the ‘Iron Lady’ fable – that bitch was put in place by Airey Neave and his controllers because she was, to use a hackneyed phrase, ‘the best man for the job’ – it had fuck-all to do with charisma, vision, or any suchlike cobblers. ‘Thatcher’ was a creation of the ‘special relationship’, and the main beneficiary of the turmoil she caused was, guess who? Tony Fucking Blair.
The rest, as they say…
Aye, give us ‘Thatcher Day’, ‘Empire Day’, ‘Churchill Day’, whatever other pish you can invent. Keep doing it, and ram it down our necks as often as you like.
Lest we forget…
Fully to realise the global potential of Maggie Thatcher Day, the rest of the planet will be required simultaneously to celebrate RUK-day. Except in Scotland where the programme will be a series of sketches by “The Two Alistairs”. We will all laugh like maniacs and wish we could be like them.
Van Rompuy is an ex belgian prime minister,a country that has the potential to be at least 3 nations at the heart of europe.He will automatically slip into bt mode if in Edinburgh lol.
Simple. Scottish government is more transparent than the UK government. Who’s have thunk it?
One rule for Westminster, another for everyone else. Typical.
Maybe just take an unrealistic guess at the figure and if they question it’s accuracy you can give them the opportunity to provide proof.
That’s how the other side have been treating the entire debate.
Completely OT.
We are aware that the Treasury has stated that Scotland cannot be forced to accept any of the UK’s debt in the event of Independence.
We also know that Scotland can use sterling in two ways. Firstly by entering into a sterling zone where the BOE would remain as a lender of last resort.
Alternatively we could use sterling without entering into a sterling zone. We could walk away debt free. Borrow e.g. £20bn and keep it on deposit to act as a bond. Bearing in mind our share of Westminster’s incompetence could be circa £130bn. I’m not an economist and this may be a stupid idea? What do you think?
Ian brotherhood
Surely we need a day for our Independence Day. In the interim an Alex Salmond day would suit me.
A day off and my Tory work colleagues would be working drowning their sorrows wit herbal tea from the unionist mugs.