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Nine Times That Same Song

Posted on November 05, 2020 by

Last year I was booed on the stage of the SNP’s annual conference for attempting to have a debate on how we can achieve independence in the face of Boris Johnson’s unswerving refusal to agree to a referendum.

I know that it still sticks in the craw of many that an SNP representative was booed at an SNP conference for wanting to discuss how Scotland will become independent (the very idea!), but it only made me even more determined to ensure that the democratic voice of Scotland is heard.

The independence campaign is a journey. We know the destination, and more people are joining us, but how we get there is not set in stone.

In the runup to last year’s UK election, Angus MacNeil MP and I thought it gave us an opportunity to hold the UK government’s feet to the fire. If we had a plan to grasp our independence, that we’d seek a mandate for at an election, perhaps the staunch opposition to an Edinburgh Agreement 2.0 would be diminished.

The leadership of the party said that we didn’t need a Plan B because Plan A was working, and that any opposition to a referendum would be unsustainable if the SNP won the general election.

We won a landslide victory at the election, getting over 80% of Scottish MPs, and it turns out that Boris Johnson did manage to sustain saying “No”. Ultimately, if all you have to do to stop Scotland voting for its independence is tell the people of Scotland that they are not allowed a choice on their own future, then that’s rather easy for a UK Prime Minister, because telling the people of Scotland what they can and cannot do is a prerequisite of the job.

We can stand up in the House of Commons and call Boris Johnson a democracy denier. But the thing about tinpot dictators is that even the most feckless Francos don’t suddenly change their mind just because we keep saying “By gosh Prime Minister this just isn’t cricket”. If we always play Westminster’s game we will always lose.

Since last year, a consistent majority of Scots agree that decisions about the future of Scotland should be made in Scotland. Right now, the next generation of weapons of mass destruction to occupy the Clyde are being designed. Scotland stands on the cliff edge of a Tory no-deal Brexit. And in Whitehall the next bedroom tax, the next rape clause and the next decade of austerity are being drawn up.

It won’t be the people of Scotland that get to decide the economic policies best placed to help us recover from the coronavirus, it’ll be the policies of the UK government that are imposed on us as usual.

And we’ve now learned that when Scotland wanted the furlough scheme extended to support the battle against COVID-19 the answer was no, but when England needs an extension then there’s no questions asked by the Chancellor as he writes another cheque. This is a UK government that won’t devolve bond-issuing powers to Scotland so that we can match our public health response with an economic response, but also one that’ll only allow us to have financial support if and when the south of England needs it.

That is why we must act now. There are those that say that if the SNP win a majority at the Holyrood elections, and with support for independence at a record high, Boris Johnson will suddenly change his mind and agree to a referendum that he knows may well end his precious union. But why would he do such a thing when all he has to do is keep on saying no?

Do we really think that the same Tories that won’t even feed hungry schoolchildren will care one bit about the democratic voice of Scotland? Westminster doesn’t want to give the Scottish people a choice again, because it knows what they’d say this time.

The UK government is never going to agree to another Section 30 order, we know this. If the Scottish Government asks for one (for a third time), it will be denied, again and again. If the SNP goes to the polls in 2021 seeking another mandate for a referendum that would be, by the lowest possible count, our fourth such mandate. Why would it succeed where the first three failed?

It’s precisely for that reason Angus MacNeil MP and I proposed a democratic way of countering Westminster’s undemocratic intransigence. Boris Johnson has the power to say no to a consensual referendum. He may even have the power to take the Scottish Government to court to block a referendum made legitimate by our own parliament and deemed lawful by our own Lord Advocate, but Boris Johnson does NOT have the power to stop the people of Scotland voting for their independence at the ballot box next year.

If Westminster won’t concede a referendum before next May then we should make the Scottish Parliament election the democratic test that we seek a mandate from the Scottish people for our independence.

We are now informed that there will be no debate on independence strategy at our party conference. Party members can instead voice their opinion during discussion sessions, but will be denied their constitutional right to debate a specific policy position. We will say that we won’t accept a Westminster Veto to indyref2 but have no plan for when that outcome becomes a reality. We said we wouldn’t accept the Boris Veto after last year’s general election, and we did. We can huff and puff as much as we want, but without a plan we most certainly will not be blowing Boris Johnson’s opposition down.

Ours is a plan that sets out a means of ensuring Scotland’s voice is heard, and it progresses our mandate for a referendum as it should be deployed, with democratic determination. We don’t need another mandate for a vote, we already have several, so let’s just have a vote. It’s a plan that’s easy to understand and that the people of Scotland can rally around to give it the popular support required for a country to take back its independence.

The coronavirus has rightly taken up the focus of our First Minister. That is why it is vital a debate among the wider party is allowed so that our leadership can listen to the path we, the members, wish them to lead us on.

The referendum strategy is not integral to our national cause. It was devised by Alex Salmond and helped create our Scottish Parliament, as well as taking us closer to our independence than we’d been for 300 years. However, if the UK government had blocked a referendum back before 2014, as they do now, then Alex most certainly would have found another way to ensure that the people of Scotland were not denied their right to self-determination.

The time for talking is over, it’s now time for action. It’s time for Plan B.

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    1. 05 11 20 11:56

      Nine Times That Same Song | speymouth

    125 to “Nine Times That Same Song”

    1. Morgatron says:

      Superb Chris.

    2. TheMadMurph says:

      Spot on Chris. We need this urgently. May 2021 will already be too late for many. We need to put WM on the back foot before they ravage our parliament any further.

    3. Thomas Dunlop says:

      We cannot allow our selves to under estimate how devious and dirty the unionists and BritNats are (I for one read the nutty Spectator and Unionist blogs, best to understand the enemy), therefore plan B, C and D are needed, in time, and in place, so the electorate know where we are going with this, and clearly sign posted along the way. What is the point of getting to position where we are at , in order to walk away when we have the majority in support of independence as well. Id like to see a challenge to this dangerous idea of sharing the pound or sterling-nisation, which both would produce continued dependence on the good will of the UK (which as we know is of limited supply). .

    4. Bill Boggia says:

      Dead right !

    5. fraser reid says:

      Absolutely spot on!

    6. Sharny Dubs says:

      Hear hear

    7. Skip_NC says:

      Why isn’t this called Plan A?

    8. faolie says:

      Chris, it’s a good plan and I heartily agree with it. But how do we achieve it? What’s the plan to get there?

      It seems to me that Yes is caught, on the one side because the UK won’t agree to a S30 order, but also on the other side because our own SNP government won’t agree to anything other than asking for a S30 order.

      Now that discussing Plan B has actually been forbidden at Conference, what do you and Angus suggest we do? Because asking ever more strenuously ain’t going to cut it.

    9. shiregirl says:

      This was a great read – many thanks Chris.

      I still struggle to figure out why certain high-heed yins in the SNP reject debate on Indy strategy? Why? What are they concerned about? Is it because ID politics have taken centre stage and Independence just isn’t so important to certain folk high up in the SNP?
      Independence is important to me and I am incredibly angry that the party I supported and was a member off have morphed into a movement I, as a Woman, no longer identify with.

      Perhaps they are fearful as they know what would happen if it was debated at conference – and wish to avoid this.

      So many questions.

    10. Ian McCubbin says:

      Absolutely true and needed.
      More YES folk and many SNP members want a plan B.
      It’s shocking that a minority of the party get to set what is debated.

    11. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Well said sir, how strange it is that only Mavericks in the SNP push for a plan for independence.

      It gives me comfort to hear your words however I remain alarmed at the conduct and stance of the SNP over a number of issues to the point where I and I am sure others think the time approaches for a new Independence Party.

      I left the party this year with sadness I did stand as a candidate once and have put my hand in my pocket and delivered leaflets for the SNP on many occasions.

      I will cast my vote at the next election for the SNP in the slim hope that they pursue independence with urgency.

      If they do not and I suspect they will not my next vote will be for the new party or no party.

    12. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Skip_NC ‘ why isn’t this called plan A’

      Well said, it very much has to be Plan A now or we are well and truly gubbed.

    13. Patsy Millar says:

      Unlike Jason Smoothpiece, I haven’t yet cancelled my membership but am in total agreement with his last two paragraphs. The SNP is turning into the Labour party in taking its supporters for granted and assuming that all they have to do is put up a candidate and we’ll vote for them regardless.

    14. ,,newburghgowfer says:

      Why stay in a Party that isn’t for Independence?
      Many a Mp/ Msp Councillor has changed or stood as Independent. I dont see what the purpose of the SNP is anymore and not a Party I would support after 38 years of voting for them!!
      The last 6 under Wee Nic have been the most mediocre

      Form a new Party, go Independent or join ISP but under the SNP banner your services are wasted !!

    15. dan macaulay says:

      Yesh
      a belter Bond plan B

    16. Effijy says:

      It is just so frustrating to see a common sense solution
      Not only rejected but ridiculed.

      Is there something they know but don’t trust the members with?
      Has the EU offered Scotland’s return on a No Deal Brexit but keep
      quiet until that is settled?

      I need a charted course from Scotland’s government the moment Brexit is concluded.

      I demand the right to exercise my Sovereignty now after so many years of abuse and lies from
      Westminster. I am not willing to live in a second class colony of a hateful Empire.

      Start cooking SNP or get out of the Kitchen!

    17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “what do you and Angus suggest we do? Because asking ever more strenuously ain’t going to cut it.”

      All we can do right now is prepare to be ready for when Sturgeon resigns.

    18. Dan says:

      Effijy says at 12.02pm

      Is there something they know but don’t trust the members with?
      Has the EU offered Scotland’s return on a No Deal Brexit but keep
      quiet until that is settled?

      Aye, it would be good to know.
      Mr Wishart now banging on a bout a “SuperVeto”, and at the other end of the spectrum you wonder if anything has been evolving behind the scenes from previous btl discussion re. Article 48.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/serving-the-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-2408091

    19. Ronald Fraser says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      5 November, 2020 at 12:06 pm
      “what do you and Angus suggest we do? Because asking ever more strenuously ain’t going to cut it.”

      All we can do right now is prepare to be ready for when Sturgeon resigns.

      Brilliant…You are sharp as a pin these days Rev,,, excellent stuff.

    20. Ronald Fraser says:

      Chris,

      You will be familiar with Chic Brodie and Andy Doig.

      They have launched a new Indy Party called “SCOTIA FUTURE”.

      I’m sure you will give them your full backing.

      I am giving them a few plugs to get them up and running.

      Hope you can give them your support in some way, every little helps take us that bit closer to Independence.

    21. Ronald Fraser says:

      I know there are others pushing this New party SCOTIA FUTURE,

      I had a look there website and found it very interesting indeed.

      We need an alternative list vote and even Constituency vote to the SNP

    22. Frank Waring says:

      ‘Has the EU offered Scotland’s return on a No Deal Brexit but keep
      quiet until that is settled?’
      Absolutely and certainly not!
      The EU doesn’t work like that.

    23. Cath says:

      We need something prior to Brexit. If we go into Brexit (especially if it’s a no deal) with no date for a referendum, no campaign and no plan, we’re simply asking for our parliament to be walked over. Post Brexit the pace at which the UK will have to start doing trade deals – whole UK ones, because it’s never going to be England and Wales NHS, agriculture, fishing etc on the table – will be staggering. By necessity devolved powers will be rolled back.

      A strategy which says, “Vote for us to give us another mandate to talk about maybe having a referendum for another 4 years” is tantamount to saying “vote for us to hand over all the decisions about Scotland to Westminster forever more”.

      The only way that can be prevented is if every other partner at the other side of UK trade deals know for sure that Scotland is having a imminent referendum and can therefore not be assumed to be included in trade deals.

    24. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Perhaps off-topic, but

      Listening to FMQs, I get the impression Baroness Buffalo is just going through the motions. The FM is never going to yield on Covid, but, with this week’s revelations re the Salmond stitch-up, she is vulnerable there.

      However, TRuthless ignored that and stuck to Covid. I get the feeling,e ven more and more, the Unionists are holding back on going for Sturgeon where she is vulnerable, but will surely ratchet-up the pressure once we get into the Holyrood election campaign.

      And, what a waste of space Rhiengold Leotard is. He gets up on his hind legs and says much the same as TRuthless has just said.

    25. Effijy says:

      Received a text suggesting Trump posted a warning
      That if Biden wins he is leaving the country.

      Please do come here to the new money laundering, tax evading centre of the world.

    26. Stoker says:

      Where are all those former Wingers who accused Stuart Campbell of all sorts from being a plant to deliberately trying to destroy the SNP? Very strange how most of them stay hidden on articles such as this and the ones produced by Kenny McAskill isn’t it? What’s wrong sycophants? Cat got your tongues?

      Scotland is being denied its democratic voice right enough but it’s not Westminster that’s doing it, it’s Queen Nic. The buck starts & stops with her. I disagree with the utter nonsense that her focus should “rightly” be on Covid. Utter tosh! There is nothing preventing them keeping their word & dealing with Covid at the same time. Plenty of other countries are doing it.

      Unless there is something, that her & Murrell know about, that’s keeping her hiding behind Covid (rolls eyes)?

      The part in that article above about being booed for suggesting the SNP discuss the very reason it was created, tells me that was Murrell’s Marauders (aka The Wokeratie) who saw that suggestion as a threat to the time they need to push through their extreme minority agendas and to hell with independence.

      Sturgeon & Co must go.

    27. Fireproofjim says:

      I’m afraid these numerous little independence groups/parties will achieve nothing unless they put their egos to one side and combine into a credible List party. Ideally they could talk to the Greens about a common approach.

    28. Vestas says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      5 November, 2020 at 12:06 pm

      “All we can do right now is prepare to be ready for when Sturgeon resigns.”

      What happens if she resigns as FM but not as leader of the SNP?

      Her & hubby still control every aspect of the party so apart from a suitable sock puppet for her to control, what changes?

    29. aulbea1 says:

      As has been stated before – if the current SNP leadership wanted Independence we would have Independence. The current leadership must be removed – quickly.

    30. Stan Broadwood says:

      I see Sturgeon has her new burd Somerville on show with her again today.

      Somerville getting plenty of telly time these days,,,a move must be on and they will think we don’t notice.

    31. Mike d says:

      Well said chris, wish there were more in holyrood with your gumption.

    32. Stoker says:

      Fireproofjim wrote on 5 November, 2020 at 12:46 pm:

      “I’m afraid these numerous little independence groups/parties will achieve nothing unless they put their egos to one side and combine into a credible List party. Ideally they could talk to the Greens about a common approach.”

      Agree but not on the part about the Greens. The Greens under PH “leadership” have proven time & again they cannot be trusted. Even their latest siding with Blue & Red Tories demanding an inquiry into Hospital to Care Home Covid deaths/situation etc.

      Despite the Cons doing exactly that in England and Labour doing exactly that in Wales. And let’s not forget the Scottish Cons back in march *demanding* the ScotGov do just that. Nope, wouldn’t trust the Greens as far as i could throw them.

    33. Lorna Campbell says:

      Cath: have been saying for ages that we need to make it clear to every UN nation state that making trade deals with the UK will not necessarily include Scotland. The problem is that if we accept Westminster’s decisions on this issue, we, too, will be tied legally into those trade deals. We really do need to give ourselves a little wiggle room because, if we don’t, our entire starting budget on independence – if we ever see independence, that is – will be swallowed up in paying for court cases against us for reneging on deals.

      You are right: we need to make it clear to the voters, in the Manifesto, that 2021 will be the turning point, and that independence will follow soon after. As you say, this needs to be made clear now, this year. Will the SNP go for it? I fear not. A commitment to independence is just another mandate to do nothing.

      I like Mr McEleny, and I like Mr MacNeil, but I think that the Plan B option is no more viable than Plan A (S30 and wait and see). What it would have done is open up the debate about a different route to independence, and, being aware of that, the SNP hierarchy have strangled it at birth. They do not want any divergence from the S30 Order so that they can go on and on indefinitely, always harping, always whining and whingeing, always blaming Westminster, but never actually doing anything at all to give forward momentum to independence.

      If people would just stop and think: independence would most likely scupper the pseudo ‘woke’ plans for Scotland. They are determined on a social experiment whose worst repercussions (the elimination of natal women from all areas of public life) will not be felt for another generation, by which time it will be all too late. Like Thatcher and her economic nonsense, destroying the country for an ideology (now acknowledged in hindsight) the SNP are hell-bent on doing the same for Scotland – and all in the name of being right-on and ‘woke’ when what they actually have is a superficial, puddle-depth, middle-class, entitled, pampered view of other people’s lives. It is the talk of the student union, of immature and silly people who have not grown up.

    34. katherine hamilton says:

      SNP keep asking for a Section 30. Johnson — No
      McEleny and MacNeil keep asking for plan B. Sturgeon— No.

      Parallels, eh? Wans as bad the another.

    35. katherine hamilton says:

      oops “the other”

    36. kapelmeister says:

      There never was a Plan A. Asking nicely for S30 isn’t a plan, it’s just a vain hope for simpletons. For some SNP troughers it’s not even a hope. For them Plan A is just the alibi they need to continue troughing. Sturgeon is of course in the latter category.

    37. montfleury says:

      “The time for talking is over, it’s now time for action. It’s time for Plan B.”

      Exactly. And it’s time for whatever action is required for Plan B to replace and become Plan A.

      If that means Ms Stugeon getting a medal and a farewell dinner so be it.

    38. Peter A Bell says:

      As Chris and Angus are aware I’m not fully in agreement with their Plan B. My preference is for a Plan A that does away with the need for a Plan B. A Plan A that actually works. Unfortunately, neither the current Plan A nor the proposed Plan B will work as both involve the Section 30 process.

      Plan A supposes that the Section 30 process will work because the British state will relent and not only grant permission but cooperate fully and honestly with the process. It remains unclear by what devilish cantrip slight this happy state of affairs might come to pass. Personally, I don’t do faith.

      Plan B supposes that there are no circumstances in which Boris’s Veto will be withdrawn, but if it is then it’s back to relying on magic with Plan A. Plan B also fails to take account of the fact that Plan B creates perhaps the only circumstances in which Boris might withdraw the veto afforded him by the Union.

      The error lies in imagining that a Section 30 order being granted is somehow better than a Section 30 order being refused. It isn’t. Boris Johnson will only grant a Section 30 order because he knows that the influence the Section 30 order gives him will allow him to sabotage the ensuing process. Granting a Section 30 order is actually the British state’s second option. Its fallback position. Because by the granting and accepting of a Section 30 order the British state assumes involvement in and influence over Scotland’s exercise of the right of self-determination and the Scottish Government legitimises that authority.

      It’s like the Americans inviting the British to have the final edit of their Declaration of Independence.

      Boris Johnson will continue to veto a referendum so long as he wishes – there is absolutely nothing to stop him doing so. He will continue to veto a referendum as long as the Scottish Government accepts that he has powers which supersede the sovereignty of Scotland’s people. He will continue to veto a referendum until it better serves the interests of the British political elite to have a Section 30 order granted. Those circumstances arise when a Plan B is adopted which would disallow the British state having any influence over the exercise of Scotland’s right of self-determination AND that Plan B can be killed stone dead by the simple expedient of granting a Section 30 order.

      The SNP has driven the independence campaign into a dead-end alley, parked it and gone off to strut its stuff on the pandemic stage. The ONLY way to get the campaign out of that trap and on the move again is to completely renounce the Section 30 process and create our own democratic process by which to exercise our right of self-determination on the solid basis of the sovereignty of Scotland’s people and the democratic legitimacy of our Parliament.

      It is at this point that nominal independence supporters intervene with their parroting of British Nationalist propaganda about legality and international recognition. Which only demonstrates how thoroughly some minds have been colonised by the British. They repeat this stuff not because it makes sense – it doesn’t if you bother to think about it – but because they think it makes them sound wise and sophisticated and moderate. As the price of them feeling good about themselves they would have Scotland continue to be the annexed territory of England-as-Britain.

      The fight to restore Scotland’s independence urgently needs a fresh mindset. If you’re still talking about the Section 30 process – whether as part of Plan A or Plan B – then you are still a long way from adopting that mindset. The mindset characteristic of the citizens of an independent nation.

    39. Joe Morrison says:

      I don’t think you need a brand new, one Party approach for alternatives to the SNP.

      Voting ISP or any other Indy Party has got to be a good thing.

      It doesn’t matter if they are not all in the one Party, as long as they put Scottish Independence to the forefront of their thinking.

    40. Republicofscotland says:

      Well put Chris, it costs Johnson nothing to keep saying no, and ultimately the higher the polls put independence the more he’s going to keep repeating it.

      Many independence supporters were left stunned when Plan B was dropped. You had the likes of Pete Wishart comparing Scotland’s position with that of Catalonia, which as everyone knows is preposterous, Scotland is actually the elder of the two countries in this not fit for purpose union.

      Hopefully Martin Keating’s day in court, which will now happen, despite the Scottish government, and the Lord Advocate, attempts to stop it.

      The do we need Westminster’s S30, will be answered once and for all, and I think the answer will be no, and both parties that tried to block that forthcoming answer know this.

      Then what for the SNP hierarchy and Plan B, or C, or D, for that matter. Many at the top of the party want to keep their snouts well and truly dipped into the trough, independence is not on their agenda period.

    41. Peter A Bell says:

      Joe Morrison says:
      5 November, 2020 at 1:38 pm
      I don’t think you need a brand new, one Party approach for alternatives to the SNP.

      Voting ISP or any other Indy Party has got to be a good thing.

      It doesn’t matter if they are not all in the one Party, as long as they put Scottish Independence to the forefront of their thinking.

      That naivety could be very costly.

    42. Johnny Martin says:

      In favour of this, or something like it.

      It’s unconscionable that the party that’s supposed to be for independence is throwing up barriers and trying to stop people knocking them down into the bargain (for example, the Sec30 court case).

      Someone up-thread compared the party to Labour taking its voters for granted and it’s an interesting comparison when you consider the SNP and New Labour comparison that’s often made.

      I am sure people pointing out errors were constantly told ‘but Tony’s so popular, shut it’ as seems to be the way of Nicola fans also.

      Both Blair and Nicola seem to also take all the credit where others laid a lot of the foundations for their party’s successes.

      She seems set to follow him in not giving people what they voted for, with likely similar results to follow in the end if the course is not altered although I am certain her fans imagine this will never happen (as I am sure New Labour did once upon a time).

    43. Livionian says:

      Good luck reforming your party mate… Join the new movement when the time comes. The SNP is not the answer

    44. Bob Costello says:

      As it is becoming more obvious by the day that Nicola Sturgeon and her cabal of unionists at the top of the SNP are actively engaged in thwarting the will of the Scottish people. The talk and effort should not be about tiptoeing around her but removing her from a position she has held fraudulently since 2014.
      There needs to be a challenge to her leadership ( such as it is) or the formation of a new party, and I do not mean one which will only fight list seats.
      It is way past time for the cold light of realism to become very apparent. Nicola Sturgeon has failed miserably in the task she was allotted the day she was made leader of the SNP and it is time for her to go.

    45. Desimond says:

      If we always play Westminster’s game we will always lose.

      Says it all.

    46. Joe Morrison says:

      SCOTIA FUTURE

      Chic Brodie,,, Andy Doig

      New Indy Party SCOTIA FUTURE

      Contact info:-

      Address:

      Email: info [at] scotia-future [dot] scot

      Phone: 07553 942484

      Business Hours: 8am-6:30pm Mon-Fri, 9am-2pm Sat-Sun

    47. Joe Morrison says:

      From what I understand, Scotia Future are putting candidates forward for Constituency and List seats.

      Very ambitious.

      Why not have a look.

      Strong Indy Party.

      Contact info and all other info on Link.

      https://www.scotia-future.scot/

    48. Joe Morrison says:

      New Independence Party launch.

      Chic Brodie ex MSP and Cllr Andy Doig launch:-

      “Scotia Future”

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18815380.ex-snp-msp-chic-brodie-launches-new-independence-party-scotia-future

    49. Republicofscotland says:

      O/T.

      The British nationalists foot soldiers are seeking a new HQ, surely there’s room at the Hub for them.

      https://archive.is/jwSWT

    50. Astonished says:

      Well said Chris. I would just have a referendum without a section 30.

      And as we are a monarchy – why don’t we start annoying the queen.

      Bob Costello @2.02pm – I agree with every word.

    51. LeggyPeggy says:

      Chris , Thank you for this post .

      I met you when you toured the branches last year with the proposal for plan B and fully supported yourself and Angus McNeill in bringing this forward for last years conference .

      Unfortunately at the time certain members in my branch were against the plan but even they now realise that we’re going nowhere with plan A and would now support plan B if it had been allowed to come forward at this years conference .

      As an Snp voter for 40 plus years i have been very close to resigning my membership but why should we allow a certain *clique* to have control of the party whose sole existence is to regain Independence for Scotland.

      When you were booed at last years conference we all know who that *clique* were and to be honest they should have been removed from the hall and their membership removed from them for their disgusting behaviour when the party have removed the membership from better people than the *clique* will ever be .

      Hopefully we’ll get a new NEC elected at conference with members who will get get the party back on the right direction to securing Independence .

    52. robertknight says:

      Chris…

      I think you must be the reincarnation of Hans Christian Andersen’s small boy shouting “(s)he hasn’t got any clothes on!”.

      Hopefully some of your colleagues might catch on, but I doubt it, because as far as they’re concerned, Plan A is the most remarkable Plan there’s ever been.

    53. Frank anderson says:

      From Iain Lawson’s blog, a very straight forward way to move this forward.
      We have a Democratic route to freedom, it’s there if the will exists to exercise it. We announce we are intending using the constituency vote in next May’s election as our alternative referendum UNLESS Westminster issues a .section 30 order no later than the end of January 2021. That removes the straw man arguments that we must fully exhaust the Section 30 process before moving to a Plan B position. We put it in our manifesto and seek the other pro Independence parties to do the same that a majority of seats secured in May will be regarded as the mandate for Independence. Should Westminster want the outcome determined by votes rather than seats then the Section 30 must be delivered by the January deadline. It is perfectly democratic, it allows us to demonstrate that Westminster has had every opportunity to act if they wanted to and it is more than sufficiently democratic to win widespread International democratic support.

    54. Muscleguy says:

      Indeed Chris but how do we make the Murrell’s allow this? They’r scared you see, they ran some focus groups and some told them that a Plan B at the election would be regarded as ‘gaming the system’.

      But how many of these people there are was not measured. And support for Indy is increasing and will increase more if the election becomes an indyref and focusses minds and makes the DK’s come down off the fence.

      The Murrell’s fears are holding us back. When your leaders are too feart to act in the national interest you must get new leaders who are not feart. This is why Alex was traduced and they tried to ruin his reputation and imprison him.

      Of yes, there’s some UN award that nobody else has heard of but people in Sturgeon’s position worry their heads over. Nicola thinks she’s up for one, for being nice to Trans people. That is what is driving this, Nicola wants a gong. To hell with what’s best for Scotland.

      The Murrells must go, you have to be brave and call for this.

    55. Alec Lomax says:

      How’s the new party coming along?

    56. Saffron Robe says:

      I agree entirely with Cath at 12:39. It is imperative that the path to independence is laid out prior to the year’s end, and it does not involve asking England’s permission – we simply tell Westminster how we are going to proceed in accordance with international law.

      The problem, however, comes back to the leadership of the SNP. For a long time I have had in my mind the analogy of a corked bottle. Nicola Sturgeon is the cork keeping the spirit of independence trapped in the bottle. Pop the cork by removing Sturgeon and her partner in crime, and whoosh, there’s an outpouring of energy for independence!

      I also think that Nicola Sturgeon must surely realise that her time is up. She cannot possibly hope to keep the pretence going until May next year. As someone up-thread mentioned, she should go gracefully while she still can. After all, if she does truly believe in an independent Scotland (or at the very least does not want to stand in the way of independence) then her resignation is the only way forward. Unless, of course, her malfeasance is all-consuming!

    57. susanXX says:

      O/T but I see Yousaf has been tweeting shit again. The man is a menace.

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      I appreciate many still cling to the belief that Scottish politics are democratic, but that simply isn’t the case, as Westminster dictates the terms of our democracy, while considering itself above international law. Which means Westminster’s diktat can not be considered compatible with international law and order, or the rule-of-law. Unfortunately, this appears to be a satisfactory state of affairs for ‘our’ legal Establishment, as well as an alarming number of senior SNP officials. Who simply don’t appear to be democratically inclined.

      Remember, all Scots are agents of international law, so Scots will never enjoy the benefits of democracy and human rights, while being denied access to international law, and the democratic principles that underpin it.

      https://rm.coe.int/state-of-democracy-human-rights-and-the-rule-of-law-role-of-institutio/168086c0c5

    59. Republicofscotland says:

      Pete Wishart having a go at Wings yet again.

      https://twitter.com/PeteWishart

    60. Republicofscotland says:

      A somewhat telling remark from Daddy Bear.

      A motto for our times: “we should not treat our opponents as enemies.”

      https://twitter.com/AlynSmith

    61. Breastplate says:

      Thanks for this Chris, perhaps it can help the wilfully blind to re-evaluate their position.

    62. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP have been devolutionist gradualists since 1999 under Salmond. The SNP way is the British way. All the way. Even Chris, talks of Westminster “conceding” a referendum.

      We could hold a plebiscite election to resile the Treaty of Union via a vote of no confidence in the Scot Govt or Holyrood 2021.

      Or a declaration anytime that the Treaty of Union is resiled by Scotland’s MPs, followed by the withdrawal of SNP MPs from WM and a confirmatory Scotland referendum.

      No s30 involved. No permission or concession sought from or required from the English Parliament as UK Parliament.

      Scotland simply exercises her sovereign right of self-determination by dissolving the Union.

      It is wishful thinking that getting rid of Sturgeon will be a magic bullet solution to the colonial careerist mindset of the SNP.

      Even with the well-meaning Chris, there is no mention of sovereignty and the legal right of Scotland to resile the Treaty of Union as a sovereign right without seeking permission or concession from UK Parliament.

    63. BLMac says:

      The British state has always been expert at subversion.

      Radicals get duchessed into acquiescence.

      Those who don’t get honey trapped.

      It makes you wonder what they might have on Sturgeon?

    64. Big Jock says:

      Chris – You need enough of your colleagues to come out of the woodwork to make this happen. So far there are only a few dissenters.

    65. Breeks says:


      Republicofscotland says:
      5 November, 2020 at 3:00 pm

      Pete Wishart having a go at Wings yet again.

      https://twitter.com/PeteWishart

      Wishart also saying Plan B hands Westminster a ‘super veto’, which proves that Pete Wishart doesn’t actually understand what Plan B fundamentally means.

      I don’t think our Pete likes to give his brain cells anything too arduous to do.

    66. Bob Mack says:

      @Peter Bell,

      You give credence to the old saying.

      “If you want something you’ve never had you have to do something you’ve never dkne”.

      Never more true.

    67. Breeks says:

      Can anybody give me one good reason why Scotland should NOT run it’s unconstitutional and anti-democratic Brexit subjugation past the UN and Council of Europe?

      You know, just for kicks to see what they say, given the modern day presumption against colonial Imperialism and subversion of democracy.

    68. Skip_NC says:

      Daisy Walker, talking about getting gubbed, just imagine Steve Clarke resigns as Scotland manager and Ian Blackford gets appointed. His team talk in Belgrade would, presumably, amount to no more than “Scotland will not be dragged out of the European Championships against its will!” Imagine his surprise when he walks out to the dug-out and realizes that there are eleven Serbians planning to do exactly that.

      That is what Scotland is up against.

    69. Dan says:

      I understand the SNP NEC is to decide how much it will cost delegates to “attend” and vote (whilst sitting in their living rooms) the virtual conference.

      One wonder if that dude who was on here a while back pushing for folk to state their membership numbers was a ploy to identify the “expensive” tickets! 🙂

    70. Fergus says:

      Would this amendment get a meaningful Indy ACTION thru conference?

      SNP Conference Provisional Agenda
      – proposed amendment

      3. AN INDEPENDENT FUTURE FOR SCOTLAND
      [2nd last paragraph]

      Existing:
      “Conference agrees that if there is a majority in the Scottish Parliament after the Holyrood election in May for a fresh referendum on independence
      there can be no justification whatsoever for the Westminster government to seek to veto that democratic choice nor should we accept such a veto.

      Conference believes any attempt to block the right of people in Scotland to decide how they should be governed would be both undemocratic and unsustainable,
      and would only strengthen support for independence. ”

      Amendment:
      “Conference agrees that if there is a majority in the Scottish Parliament after the Holyrood election in May for a fresh referendum on independence,
      the Scottish Government should implement such a referendum within six months of the election, ideally in cooperation with the UK Government.

      Conference believes any attempt to block the right of people in Scotland to decide how they should be governed would be both undemocratic and unsustainable,
      and the Scottish Government should proceed with the referendum with or without Westminster agreement.”

    71. Alison Brown says:

      110% behind you Chris!!! I’ve cancelled my SNP membership after the Joanna betrayal and need to see hope. Well done. ??

    72. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the SNP doesn’t change it’s approach to the law and politics, they can’t be considered anything other than being hostile towards international law and order. Which apparently suites ‘our’ legal Establishment. So here’s a look at “Behavioral International Law and Economics”, which is kind of essential to democracy.

      https://esil-sedi.eu/post_name-360/

    73. ScottieDog says:

      “ Should Westminster want the outcome determined by votes rather than seats then the Section 30 must be delivered by the January deadline”

      Good point. Then they can’t keep moving the goal posts. Either constituency seats or actual votes – which means a referendum.

    74. ScottieDog says:

      We really need a definitive big hitter to join one of the existing list parties or start one of their own ASAP.

    75. iain MacGillivray says:

      The farmer won’t let the prized, and only, cash cow go until it has been well and truly milked dry. There is an awful lot of milk left too. The cash cow needs to charge the imaginary fence and get away pronto, while it still has the energy to do so.

      We need a plan Z, the Final plan, one that does not mention or include S30 and one that puts the sovereignty of the Scottish people at its core..

    76. susanXX says:

      I agree totally iain MacGillivray @4:25pm

    77. Cod says:

      I’ll tell you one thing – I am sick to death of Pete Wishart and his utter refusal to engage with anyone, but particularly SNP members, on his constant refrain and assertion that Johnson will simply concede and grant an S30 if there’s a majority in May for the SNP.

      His response, more and more, to members of his own party, is to simply block them on every form of social media so he can’t be asked the question again and refuse to give an answer again. And it doesn’t matter whether he is asked in a non-confrontational evidence only approach or a more robust manner, the response is the same. And the party above Wishart’s level simply don’t respond at all to the question.

      I said it before, elsewhere, but the SNP have failed to transition from a small party to a mass membership party and that failure, and the entitled attitudes that seem to accompany the upper echelons, is now causing serious issues. Policies are now being pursued which large chunks of the membership simply do not agree with, and routes to dispute these policies are being shut off and removed.

      As an SNP member I talk to other SNP members, at branch level, and almost without exception, the question Wishart refuses to answer in any meaningful manner comes up, along with what is seen to be a completely non-democratic functioning of the party, and the imposition of policies from above.

      It has to stop, and it has to stop soon, or we will be hemorrhaging members at an ever increasing rate. Maybe that would suit some factions on the NEC, but it definitely won’t help gain independence any easier.

    78. Kenny says:

      Ideally, of course, the SNP and the Greens should declare independence, say, exactly a week before the dissolution of Holyrood prior to the elections. Then both parties stand on that in the election. So it will be a de facto consultation with the people on the declaration.

      Even better, for Scotland’s sovereignty, of course, would be to announce the vote prior to 31 December, thus serving notice to European partners.

      Whatever happened about being ambitious for your country?

    79. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Cod
      That is a good post. Wishart et al have a bunker mentality. They long for the membership adulation of yesterday. Power within the party has been centralised since the current FM took over. So your comment on the lack of membership input is well articulated. She is dug in deeper than an Alabama tick but she will go all the same. Stu is right to say prepare now for the changeover. We can’t afford to get it wrong a second time.

    80. Iain More says:

      Count the votes no stop the votes no count the votes no stop the votes. It doesn’t matter as they have now lost mine.I left the Party years ago as it was. This was the last straw. Not that we live in a democracy anyway.

    81. Johnny Martin says:

      Cod @ 5:12pm:

      Yes, there is frankly a denial of reality by Wishart.

      Large numbers of people (of those who engage closely at least) see rather large problems with strategy and want it addressed cleanly and logically.

      His response is to give them cheek and nonsense, and insult their intelligence by suggesting that the problems they identify don’t exist. The problem is that the ‘if we just crawl a bit more’ argument he is espousing flies in the face of what intelligent folk know about Westminster Tories (and frankly the Labour party down there as well) which is that if you crawl up to them begging, they will crush your face into the muck.

      Denying this truth will not end well; folk don’t appreciate being taken for mugs and they *know* what the Tories are like.

    82. MaggieC says:

      Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,

      The Convener wrote to the Lord Advocate on 5 November 2020 requesting information from the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service ,

      https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/General%20documents/20201105ConvenertoLordAdvocate.pdf

      And I’m reposting this for anyone who missed it first time ,

      Legal firm Levy & McRae, representing the Former First Minister Alex Salmond, submitted documents relating to the Judicial Review for the Committee’s consideration (please note due to the size of this file it may take several minutes to open this document) ,

      https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/AS_Documents_(Final_Redactions_02.11.2020_GD_PM)_Redacted.pdf

    83. A Person says:

      Wishart’s social media consists of him calling Wings “vile”, some replies simply agreeing with him without explanation, and others saying “but he has a point” and getting no answer.

      They are incapable of answering this site’s questions.

    84. Willie says:

      And so a governance review has just been announced by Keith Brown.

      A genuine attempt to allow the branches to speak and the party to take heed, or a distraction since conference is being silenced from debate.

      Mnnn?

    85. Willie says:

      I’d like to debate how Nicola Sturgeon proceeded in the light of legal advice into Alex Salmond civil case and how the Government then threw in the towel conceding bias.

      But if the FM can’t or won’t make available to Parliament that legal advice, what chance a review.

      But maybe Sturgeon and her coterie may soon be gone

    86. Willie says:

      And the theme song for Conference…well that’s easy …..” Woke me up before you Go,Go….”

    87. Melvin says:

      Put my name to that . Why not have a petition of SNP members electronically set up so they can lodge their name and membership number ,in support or against the motion. In that way the party can see what support there is for it. If the members call for it they will find it hard to say no. If they do then I believe that the SNP has been infiltrated by the British state and that they are never going to push the button on plan b.

    88. James Che. says:

      Do we not need to talk about the sovereignty of the people over the sovereignty of Scottish parliament, do we not need to get to the centre of this issue from a different prospective, the snp are not sovereign and can not dictate when the people want and chose their sovereignty, the Scottish parliament is only a pretend parliament,
      ie, devolved,
      And a devolved parliament, a subsidiary parliament, that actually is not within the treaty of the union acts, and the treaty is set in stone as forming part of the institution of Great Britain, without adhering to that by Westminster there is no Great Britain or uk,
      Do we not need to have deeper discussion on where we the people stand and what our position is rather than the snps, tories, labour or any other political party for that matter.
      It often seems that the most important legal position we hold here in Scotland is the least spoken about on any site,

    89. Tannadice Boy says:

      I can’t believe the average SNP MSP and MP are not reading the situation. I saw encouraging signs during the debate yesterday. So many abstentions, when has that happened before? So why El Alamo today? Are they are comfortable with their lot?. Untouchable? Release the legal advice on the AS judicial review now. How long do you need to “consider the implications of the vote” I would think a few hours. We need substantive change before it is too late. The worm has turned. Finally, realise you are replaceable then I will take up my SNP membership again.

    90. twathater says:

      Thank you Chris for having the BALLS to come on Wings and consort with the malcontents as MBP would say

      What Sturgeon and her coterie FORGET it is NOT just the SNP members who she represents BUT the WHOLE population of Scotland and that population is NOW more convinced that independence is the ONLY way forward for us to EXIST

      I personally prefer NOT engaging with WM for anything, I fully support a plebiscite election announced loudly and publicly before Dec 2020 where no one, not WM or the international community will be in any doubt, that if ALL independence supporting parties put it in their manifesto and GAIN the majority of seats that that is a DECLARATION of independence and will enter into talks with WM for the disbursement of assets

      That is the reality Chris and if Sturgeon and her coterie fail to agree then YOU and US must FORCE her to stand down , I would recommend that you gather all your real independence supporting colleagues together Chris to enable this to take place , BECAUSE if she doesn’t get with the programme now very few of your colleagues will have a job, and I for one, my family and friends will not vote for MORE TREA SON

    91. Dan says:

      @ James Che

      Aye, it comes down to that really.

      And with that sovereignty comes the question asked earlier by Astonished at 2:28 pm

      And as we are a monarchy – why don’t we start annoying the queen.

      Scots did want to leave the EU, and another poll today showing 54% of Scots expressing their wont for Indy.
      So is it not aboot time oor Lizzy stepped up and acknowledged, respected and defended oor wishes or she’ll be gettin’ her P45, coz that’s the deal with being a Scottish monarch richt?
      Nae point in paying aw these folk the big bucks to represent and uphold oor expressed instructions if they’re gonna do feck all when it really matters.

    92. Elmac says:

      Does the SG have the legal right to refuse to co-operate with the committee? if not surely it is time for the committee to demand immediate compliance failing which legal action will follow against the SG and, more importantly, against the individuals involved. In the real world everybody is accountable for their own actions. Not so much in politics and big business where they try to hide behind the corporate veil. It is time to let them know that they will be held personally accountable for any negligence/misdemeanours in public office and that we, the people of Scotland, will go for their jugular. The message is – we put you there to serve us not yourselves.

    93. Dan says:

      Scots did not leave the EU obviously…

    94. Tannadice Boy says:

      BBC Scotland presents the Pete Wishart show to present the Indy case. He says we should all work together etc. Now I know its SNP push back. El Alamo won’t save them because of unanswered questions. They think we are thick. They are replaceable.

    95. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi robertknight at 2:39 pm.

      You mentioned,
      “Hopefully some of your colleagues might catch on, but I doubt it, because as far as they’re concerned, Plan A is the most remarkable Plan there’s ever been.”

      I’ve posted this on Wings in the past but your mention of “PLAN” renders it repeatable…
      ————————————
      The Plan
      In the beginning, there was a plan, And then came the assumptions, And the assumptions were without form, And the plan without substance,? And the darkness was upon the face of the workers, And they spoke among themselves saying, ”It is a crock of shit and it stinks.”
      And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said, ”It is a pile of dung, and we cannot live with the smell.”
      And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, ”It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, Such that none may abide by it.”
      And the Managers went unto their Directors saying, ”It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide by its strength.”
      And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another, ”It contains that which aids plants growth, and it is very strong.”
      And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them, ”It promotes growth, and it is very powerful.”
      And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him, ”This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor of the company with very powerful effects.”
      And the President looked upon the Plan And saw that it was good, And the Plan became Policy.
      And this, my friend, is how shit happens.

    96. Balaaargh says:

      Just watched the Andrew Neil with Alyn Smith clip from earlier today. Smith wasted what little time he was given trying to be clever when he should have been quicker on how devolution under austerity ties Scotland’s hands. We don’t just need plan B, we need plan C and D as well.

    97. Elmac says:

      Until the SNP clean out their stable no thinking independence supporter can vote for them. They have to be purged before they can be electable again. The Murrell clique now have total control of the party and they so love their highly paid sinecures. They have no intention of giving up on the gravy train.

      For those of you on here who are still SNP members or financially contribute to the party, for god’s sake wake up. STOP funding the SNP! All you are doing is perpetuating a dire situation by allowing these leeches to cling on. Stop your membership subs now and stop all donations and fund raising activities. They are already suffering a massive drop off in membership and have a huge hole in their finances (despite appropriating ring fenced funds in excess of £1/2 million). There cannot be much more left in the kitty to pay their fat salaries and when that has gone you will not see them for dust. Unless enough of the membership muster the courage to force them out then this is the only way.

      Until and unless the corruption of democracy in the SNP is addressed I will not vote SNP again. Instead I will vote for the most viable of the alternative independence parties on both the constituency and list polls. If no such party exists in my area I will vote for an independent who will do most for the local community. I urge everybody to do the same. As it stands the SNP are beyond saving without an immediate and massive change. There is no prospect of independence for very many years. If they will not change we have to start again and the sooner the better.

    98. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Balaargh
      Alternatively we can replace Alyn Smith. He lost hands down to Andrew Neil. Neil’s argument was Scotland has been diminished under the SNP. An argument he won. Smith said that Neil was disrespectful. Smith has never met me. This ‘Daddy’ stuff is offensive to me. How many bairns has he got?. El Alamo is not working SNP HQ.

    99. Balaaargh says:

      @Tannadice Boy,

      No reason why we couldn’t do both. Smith has never impressed me personally, tries too hard to be clever and just comes across as smug.

    100. How does the Catalan referendum and how that worked out fit in to your plan,

      the Spanish State just said “nah” (Spanish for no) and sent in the police,army,pet right wing judiciary,thugs and infiltraters.

      what happens when we win your referendum and the Brutish State say “nah f@ck of jock”.

    101. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Balaargh
      We are after the same outcome. Our methods may differ. I think we need a discontinuity and a change of power at the top. Wisharts interview on BBC Scotland news summed it up. Coincidence when he criticised this blog? I don’t think so. I would trust Stus comments before Wishart or Smith any day of the week. Except when it comes to Aberdeens FC results and performance.

    102. Johnny Martin says:

      ‘your referendum’.

      Interesting words, Scot.

    103. Johnny Martin says:

      Scot wants to let Boris veto us forever.

    104. Johnny Martin says:

      Here, Scot, what if Boris says we can have a section 30 and then we win and then he says ‘nah, not worth the paper it’s written on, we are not putting up with it’. What then? Let me guess, presumably they’d need to be decent and adhere to their word? They could cheat at any point so do we just give up now?

    105. Dan says:

      @ Elmac

      I hear you, and believe me it has been a real struggle putting up with all the crap.
      I agree it has to change, and the next month or so will determine at least for me if it has the capacity to do so. We’ve got MSP candidate selection voting for next year’s Scottish Election finishing tomorrow. Will the membership select serious players or lightweights.
      If the decent folk don’t get selected then at that point I hope they will consider standing as independents or join pro-Indy candidates for an other party.
      We have got nominations for the NEC till the 13th Nov, with delegates then voting at conference to determine who gets the positions.
      All it takes for bad shiz to happen is for good people stand by and do nothing.
      I’m pinging the list of identified “good” folk around as many of my SNP contacts as possible, and trying to get them to take up being delegates so they can vote in an attempt to influence changing it for the better.
      If it comes to nothing so be it, but I can at least say I tried.

    106. Molly's Mum says:

      This afternoon I tweeted the latest poll results from Survation :

      “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

      Yes 54% (+1)
      No 46% (-1)

      and moments later I saw the response from the First Minister, which was akin to that air-sucking noise car mechanics make when they look into your engine and shake their head sadly before telling you how many weeks salary it will cost to get your motor back on the road

      Y’see having 12 (I think) consecutive positive polls on the trot isn’t enough to start even thinking about having a referendum. Oh no friends. Because ? Because America. Just look what’s happened there, ol’ Joe was tipped for a landslide but here we are, nothing is certain, it can all go horribly wrong……..

      Why not wait until May, when you can all vote for policies no-one in their right minds wants in the vain hope that the fasciti in Westminster have a change of heart and give us a S30

      One more mandate, give me one more mandate (as Phil Collins nearly once sang)

      So there we have it – the manifesto is written. Vote SNP in 2021 because we will let men into women’s changing rooms, we will jail you for thinking bad thoughts, even if they aren’t that bad.

      But we will never, ever lose you an Independence Referendum, no sirree.

    107. cirsium says:

      @iain MacGillivray, 4.25

      We need a plan Z, the Final plan, one that does not mention or include S30 and one that puts the sovereignty of the Scottish people at its core..

      Agree. The time for a referendum is past.

      The cash cow needs to charge the imaginary fence and get away pronto, while it still has the energy to do so.

      They are going to treat us the way they treated India. We have to go before they extract all our resources.

    108. velofello says:

      @ Lorna Campbell: I very much doubt that when the trans/woke stuff finally comes down to basics that natal women will be pushed out of politics. More like they will be roused into action.

    109. Elmac says:

      You are trying to fight this from the inside. I applaud the effort and sincerely hope enough sensible people can be voted on to the NEC to make a difference. If they are not successful then I hope they will leave the dark side behind and join other pro Indy parties or, as a last resort, stand as independents.

      Of course all of this waters down the pro independence vote and makes a unionist majority in Holyrood more likely, but this is already the potential outcome of the current disillusionment of independence supporters. SNP votes will be disappearing like snow off a dyke if this corruption of the core values of the party is not addressed soon.

    110. Contrary says:

      “The coronavirus has rightly taken up the focus of our First Minister. That is why it is vital a debate among the wider party is allowed so that our leadership can listen to the path we, the members, wish them to lead us on.”

      Oh dear.

      I don’t think you are going to get very far if your are still making excuses for her, Chris. You spend time telling us how undemocratic the party is, how you can’t present anything at conference even, but somehow, miraculously, the first minister will start listening because everyone’s been chatting about independence?

      If that’s a good excuse for the First Minister being unable to talk about independence or engage in any fashion on the subject, or to do anything else except give her excuses about why she hasn’t done very much at all except avoid any other subject apart from Covid-19 – then, all I can say is, she’s really not fit for that office. A supposed leader that’s unable to do more than one thing at a time? That really doesn’t sound like the ideal skill set.

      I believe that many SNP members are already chatting about independence, how many times do you need to discuss the subject, what we need is the political will and action to get on and do it. Present plausible ideas and thrash it out, a vague ‘let’s have a discussion’ is something that should have been done 10 years ago. I’m pleased to know there is still some people in the SNP that have an interest in independence, but the inertia is breathtaking.

    111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Melvin at 6:09 pm.

      You typed,
      “Why not have a petition of SNP members electronically set up so they can lodge their name and membership number ,in support or against the motion. In that way the party can see what support there is for it. If the members call for it they will find it hard to say no. If they do then I believe that the SNP has been infiltrated by the British state and that they are never going to push the button on plan b.”

      I feel that it is not DEMOCRATIC that only delegates to the conference can vote for who gets to be in the NEC, or what policy directions the party takes.

      In these days of cyber-connectivity, it is possible for ALL members of the party to vote on EVERYTHING, rather than leaving it to those who gain credence as delegates to a conference.

      After all, the party has put in place a member-wide system for nominating NEC members – why can’t they put in action a system for ALL members to vote on EVERYTHING?

      Too democratic?

    112. Dan says:

      Angus B MacNeil and Dr Mark McNaught on Indy live, started at 8pm.

      https://twitter.com/IndyLiveStream/status/1324357035304079361

    113. Saffron Robe says:

      Yes indeed, it all comes down to sovereignty. I went for a walk the other day with a good friend of mine who is an independence supporter, and he mentioned that he was worried there wouldn’t be independence without blood being shed. However, I replied that as Scotland was never conquered militarily by England, we have no need to take up arms to reestablish our sovereignty. Our sovereignty was won in battle by our ancestors at great cost and that is why England has no right to treat us as a colony or a subject people. The Treaty of Union was an attempt to achieve by trickery what they could not achieve by force, but ironic as it may seem, the Treaty of Union protects the sovereignty of Scotland and it is Westminster themselves who have rendered the treaty null and void through Brexit. The SNP, however, do not want to discuss sovereignty because they need to act and act fast to defend Scotland against Westminster’s onslaught but ultimately have no intention of doing so. So it’s “wheesht for independence” and “wheesht about sovereignty and the Treaty of Union”.

      I do not think that appealing to Mrs Battenberg will help either. She has repeatedly acted against Scottish sovereignty (such as authorising the illegal seizing of Scottish maritime waters) so she is, in effect, an enemy of Scotland.

      A challenge to Brexit and the Treaty of Union must be made under international law before the 31st of December. It should also be possible to delay Brexit through this challenge until our independence is ratified in May’s elections. If the SNP are still under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership then they are going to do everything they can to stop Brexit being challenged under the Treaty of Union. We will therefore have to find another way to make this challenge. A possible solution is that Scottish sovereignty lies with the people and not the monarch or parliament so we can circumvent them both. We just have to be creative!

    114. Robbo says:

      Sorry to rock the boat here but can someone please tell me what is the point of going over this ad nauseam. Nobody wants Independence more than me but surely it doesn’t need a Conference motion to conclude that there isn’t a Plan B C or D that is perfectly clear. We can talk around this for years but apart from armed insurrection which I’m sure we would all discount there is no other way forward. IF SOMEBODY DOES HAVE A PLAUSIBLE PLAN B THEN PLEASE SHARE IT WITH US UNTIL THEN LETS FOCUS ON MAKING THIS COUNTRY THE BEST IT CAN BE.

    115. @Johnny Martin,

      Hey Johhny

      i`m not against Chris`s Plan B referendum, `Audaces fortuna iuvat`

      but as i said and maybe you could answer,

      `what happens when we win your referendum and the Brutish State say “nah f@ck of jock”.`

      what happens next ? ,simple question.

    116. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “IF SOMEBODY DOES HAVE A PLAUSIBLE PLAN B THEN PLEASE SHARE IT WITH US”

      It’s literally in the sodding article.

    117. Donibristle says:

      As you say Chris, Westminster will always say no… their reason to be is to rule the United Kingdom, all of it.
      Scotland cannot accept Westminsters say on anything pertaining to Scotland, because the numbers are rigged against us.
      I think asking them once politely was enough.
      Now its time to just go ahead and act like a country and move to plan B.
      And if the Scottish Govt stand in the peoples way too, then we have the wrong people in Government.
      Time in all cases, for a change in the way we do business.

    118. red sunset says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      5 November, 2020 at 8:12 pm
      Hi Melvin at 6:09 pm.

      After all, the party has put in place a member-wide system for nominating NEC members – why can’t they put in action a system for ALL members to vote on EVERYTHING?”

      Maybe because they get £30 for every delegate that signs up to watch them on Zoom?
      And then vote on candy floss resolutions.

    119. Fionan says:

      There seems to be plenty talk about challenging brexit in the international courts before 31st dec, but talk will not bring it about. We need to crowdfund for the legal action required and to find a legal representative who can move this forward quickly.

      Soon all legal and constitutional systems and organisations will close for the festive break and we will be right out of time. This is a matter of around five weeks away, that is all the time we have left. The weeks are flying by. Legal systems never work quickly even in an emergency like this one that Scotland is facing. Surely some winger or someone known to some winger is a legal eagle who can start the ball rolling NOW, this week! And surely some winger is familiar with the process of setting up a crowdfunder, NOW, this week!

      I am excusing myself from these tasks due to disability, poor health and lack of up-to-date knowledge and competence to undertake these tasks – there are many younger and more skilled wingers than me who have the energy and the knowledge and who may know the right people. Please, curtail the talking ( talking and communication is always needed, but action speaks louder) and commence the doing before we run out of time.

      Breeks has several times outlined the kind of procedure we need, a challenge in international and /or european courts on the basis of our sovereignty being killed off by repeatedly being ignored and acted against and our weak and silent submission to that process.And in this way at least buying ourselves time to sort out indy parties and indy strategies, root out bandwagon-jumpers, and reuniting the Yes grassroots to go all out to win.

      Diving quickly back below the parapet!

    120. Fionan says:

      oops, in moderation, no idea why.

    121. holymacmoses says:

      This is definitely the way forward , but how to achieve it?
      The question was asked by Stu, whether Nicola Sturgeon would resign having lied to Holyrood. I doubt very much if she will and I also doubt that she will accept this excellent plan.
      However I do think a lot more pressure on Mr Murrell would make Sturgeon’s position untenable. In order to get this plan even considered , the position of Mr Murrell has to be examined and I suspect he will have to resign under examination.; that event would, I suspect, bring about the demise of Mrs Murrell .

    122. Tartanpigsy says:

      Agree wholeheartedly with this bit Chris
      “If Westminster won’t concede a referendum before next May then we should make the Scottish Parliament election the democratic test that we seek a mandate from the Scottish people for our independence.”
      Stu, “All we can do right now is prepare to be ready for when Sturgeon resigns.”
      Do you really think she will? Is there not too much ego to countenance that move?

    123. James Che. says:

      We the people have to decide on this vote, the organisation of the vote, how we get the message out to the world, and be recognised, we also must recognise the emergency of the situation, and the very limited time
      If we leave this to others in parliament, we are letting our own sovereignty slip into a political decision, and blindly given up our rights, this is how politicians legally work, by tacit means, taken your rights from you by stealth.
      This is something we must do, politicians talk, politicians are allowed to lie in elections, politicians do lie to gain votes,
      When everything is over the politicians backtrack on their promises, I haven’t forgotten the Sewell convention, the vow, evil, mandate promises right here in Scotland or Carmichael, a broken 1707 treaty,
      We must control our own future, not be led by star dust and wispy dandelion seeds.
      We are sovereign, for now, let’s keep it that way.

    124. MaggieC says:

      I posted this on the OUR NUMBER ONE FAN post but I should have posted it here ,

      Well Well , the Snp’s plan A for a referendum can be forgotten about according to Alister “ UNION “ Jack

      “ Scottish Secretary Alister Jack has said the UK government intends to refuse another independence referendum “for a generation” .

      In a BBC interview, Mr Jack suggested a generation could be “25 or 40 years”.

      And Rev Stuart’s Number 1 fan has his say in the article ,

      “ SNP MP Pete Wishart said UK ministers would be “taking on democracy” if they refused demands from MSPs for Indyref 2 “ .

      https://archive.vn/bMOpu

      Maybe It’s time for the Snp Mps and Msps to be “ taking on democracy “ and listen to the Snp members and the much wider YES movement if they continue to refuse demands for Indyref 2 .

      It’s definitely time for Plan B .

    125. Jimmock says:

      The 2021 Scottish parliamentary election MUST be the defining vote on independence. There is
      NO OTHER WAY. While support for independence stays at a level above 45% the U.K. governme will never say YES to another referendum. There is NO alternative vehicle than the SNP that can
      take us there. It is dangerously naive to vote for or promote any other party. The SNP must use the
      2021 election as the independence vote. The manifesto must state this. Every statement by the
      party must include it. EVERY answer to EVERY question MUST be prefixed by the words “THIS
      IS THE INDEPENDENCE ELECTION —————“. No doubt must be allowed to be cast on the
      purpose of the vote. Achieving this may require removing the present party leadership which is
      becoming an embarrassment. This needs to happen in time to let the dust settle before May.
      Joanna Cherry or Phillipa Whiteford would be my preferred leadership choices because they have
      had media exposure. Other candidates would be Kenny Macaskill or Angus McNeil. However, the
      only vehicle is the SNP.



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