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More ordinary voters

Posted on August 14, 2014 by

From a leaflet sent out this week by Scotland’s only Tory MP, David Mundell:

cockburns

“Do Keith and Michelle have a surname?”, nosy readers might be wondering.

It turns out that they do:

cockburn

You’d think that might have been relevant information, wouldn’t you? The leaflet also features a section where Mr Mundell answers “your questions”, starting with a flat-out unequivocal lie about whether an independent Scotland could keep the pound.

mundell_leaflet_questions

Our alert local reader couldn’t help but notice one of them was a “Neil Calvert” from West Linton, and wondering if it might be this Neil Calvert from West Linton:

calvert

We’re sure that not ALL the concerned constituents whose “questions” Mr Mundell answers in the leaflet are members of the local Conservative Party, of course. After all, they’re the sort of questions real people all over Scotland are asking:

johnlamont

And not just in the Borders. They were curious up in Deeside too:

burnett2

Mr Burnett and his family also had eerily similar views to the Cockburns.

burnett3

And to those of John Lamont’s constituents “Rachael and Billy”:

johnlamont1a

Do send us more if you’ve got them, readers.

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    1. 15 08 14 11:40

      The Voice of Edinburgh » Blog Archive » Abuse and Lies

    417 to “More ordinary voters”

    1. scullys gusset sooker says:

      Bwahahaha!!. Busted again.

    2. donald anderson says:

      Tell it to the Pandas.

    3. MajorBloodnok says:

      Cockburn. That’s a relief, I thought they were going to be Lally’s.

    4. MajorBloodnok says:

      (apologies for the apostrophe, I’m out of practice)

    5. Democracy Reborn says:

      Quite a Cockburn cock-up…

    6. EdinScot says:

      This internet thingmyjig is sure catching them out lol. I mean, surely it isnt that bad on the ground for the no camp that they have to recruit councillors to act as ordinary members of the public…

    7. Training Day says:

      Evil Yes voters never put family first.

    8. Busy-Bee says:

      😀 You couldn’t make this stuff up!… hilarious!

    9. donald anderson says:

      “The 2014 Electoral Scottish Independence Referendum Voting Guide” through my door has a Cambuslang “working mum” Voting No because she wants “the best of both worlds”. How many workin mums thought that one up?

      We weren’t against a “working mum” in Clydebank just a Labour bum.

    10. Danny says:

      Tory candidate votes for the Union Non-shocker!

    11. galamcennalath says:

      Well, let’s face it … what ordinary family is going to allow themselves to be featured in Tory NaeSaying propaganda like that? Shows just how hard it was to find someone when they actually used a councillor! Evidence that BetterTogetherNaeThanks have absolutely no grassroots!

    12. Drew McMorrin says:

      Not the only spurious stuff being handed out in Dumfries. I have a flyer which is being handed out and there must be some doubts to it’s legality. Not saying that it’s Mundell but worrying nevertheless.

      I have it in PDF format now. Did you get my email Stuart?

    13. joe kane says:

      Dear Mr Mundell, in an independent Scotland will you still be able to lie through your teeth and get paid by the taxpayer to do so or will you be out a job?
      Frank Neckbolt – Wishaw.

    14. gillie says:

      Who would trust a Tory?

    15. gillie says:

      Cockburn – a fireman’s worst nightmare.

      Ouch!!

    16. stonefree says:

      I always thought Tories were reasonable astute at fiddles , apparently that’s not the case

    17. Andy-B says:

      So a Tory councillor and his wife are out across as an “average couple with children” when in fact its a biased article trying to show the union in a good light.

      Whats wrong Mr Mundell couldn’t you find any ordinary folk to do your false bidding, and why are the answers to the questions ALL lies.

      Mr Mundell you truly live up to the “Tory mantra” which is tell lies and to hell with the consequences. A despicable man, and a despicable party.

    18. stuart says:

      Surely this is fraud if they’re making these questions up and portraying them as “ordinary” members of the public? Does anyone with legal expertise know? Should this not be reported to the police?

    19. Billy says:

      They KEEP doing this. They actually struggle to get an impartial, independent volunteer to appear in their leaflets and videos. It’s always politician stooges or paid models.

    20. heedtracker says:

      Frauds. “How do we get all the advantages of being part of the larger UK economy?” is a query they never answer. We take your taxes and resources, then we give you back what we decide you need, with the scrounger Scotland stuff thrown in for free.

      Maybe if the UK economy was say Germany or Norway, you would probably go, thank you so much oh wise and generous ones, but they’re just a bunch of……… very rude words, and they love a good war but only with countries that they think they defeat with ease, but look at the Middle East after Westminster charged off to do battle with forces they either couldn’t comprehend or didn’t care either way.

    21. HandandShrimp says:

      Let’s face it, who else is going to speak to a Tory MP?

      🙂

    22. biggpolmont says:

      Mundell probably thought that he could slip this one through!
      After all in Peebles not many folk will know that he is their cooncilor. He was elected for the third of three seats in a by election Last October. The folk in peebles are probably asking who is this guy? He was elected with just over 42% of the vote & The local paper reported that among the spoiled ballot papers was one which read: “Waste of time, yir awe *****”. Sort of sums it all up doesn’t it!

    23. G H Graham says:

      If it is indeed true that I am not allowed to keep the Pound Sterling, will someone from the Unionist/Better Together/NoThanks/UKOK/NoBorders/UK Gov/Treasury explain when the money in my bank account is going to be confiscated & what will I receive in return, if anything?

      And what becomes of the £6 billion or so sloshing around the Scottish economy?

      And what will become of all that hard currency & bullion deposited at the Bank of England that underwrites some of the deposits/loans etc in the Scottish banks?

      Since they keep claiming that independence negotiations will take forever, to receive an explanation sometime by 2016 seems reasonable.

    24. Craig Evans says:

      I got a similar leaflet from the prospective conservative candidate in Deeside/Garioch: Again the same lies

    25. BuckieBraes says:

      They’re certainly flogging this ‘best of both worlds’ shtick to death. Even if I were a No supporter, I’d be getting sick of reading/hearing it by now.

    26. GF says:

      I’ve never understood this “advantages of a larger economy” thing. What does it actually mean? As far as I can see, our economy being tied to rUK’s has been fairly disastrous for us.

    27. David Stevenson says:

      Yes, it’s quite a quirk of fate that Mrs Douglas of Thornhill thought up the exact same question as Trevor Adams of St. Boswells, ditto Mr Allison of Biggar and Andrew Meldrum of Lauder, ditto etc…..

      On the topic of No leaflets, Labour put out a 4-page tabloid size one a couple of weeks ago which generated some comment here because it was just SO riddled with misinformation, half-truths and irrelevancies (but irrelevancies aimed at scaring the electorate).

      Some people suggested an on-line dissection of it. Does anyone know if that has been done? I had a letter in our local paper this week (Rutherglen Reformer) in which I highlighted 3 ridiculous points, but there are scores of contestable points in the leaflet.

    28. biggpolmont says:

      The good news is Mundells goose is cooked. When we finish the job on THE 18TH he will only be at Wastminster under sufferance. Yet another good reason to vote yes!
      Imagine the fun we can have after the 18th, At the next election we could send down MPs from all the yes parties and Screw things up there until Indy day and then they can all come home and never have to return to that pit!

    29. fletch says:

      leafleting fail! deary me! how dumb and gullable to they think we are?

    30. galamcennalath says:

      GF says:
      I’ve never understood this “advantages of a larger economy” thing.

      The best tactic with BritNats who take this line is to suggest to them that they must believe all Westmister powers should therefore be transferred to Brussels, if bigger is better. Of course they don’t believe bigger is better, they just believe Britain is better.

    31. Anna says:

      Our local mps office told us this was just their ‘opinion’ not misleading at all then

    32. Chic McGregor says:

      Noticed this piccie on John Lamont’s website.

      http://www.johnlamont.org/sites/johnlamont.buttermountain.com/files/styles/bm_large/public/john_lamont_eckford691.jpg?itok=s181g4dx

      opening a new Tory conference centre?

    33. Peter Campbell says:

      Why is the SNP not using this to discredit the No campaign (as if it needed it)?

    34. heedtracker says:

      Also UKOK bullshit is “strength and security of belonging to the UK”

      This morn vote No or else Guardian had worries about moving Trident nukes to Devon and what happens to the poor souls in Devon, if a boomer goes off down there by mistake!

      it’s funny how a mega mega mega ton Trident nuclear bomb going off by accident on the Clyde isn’t an issue for our chums in the south.

    35. Juteman says:

      Best of both worlds?
      I’ve never understood this two world thing. Different planets though, definately.

    36. a2 says:

      @Craig Evans
      but is it the same questions with different names? please share.

    37. Moreida Lord says:

      Great! Someone sent you Alexander’s letter… the things is he wrote 2 personal letters, one to my 16 year old daughter and one to my husband and a questionnaire for them to answer and to highlight their concerns about metters of importance for Scotland. I somehow got ignored – it must be because deep down I’m a foreigner you see… and I don’t exist….

    38. Al says:

      You would think someone who said this in a Tory party memo in 2007(http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2007/03/david_mundell_m.html) about his own party, would see the opportunity to take leadership of an independent Scottish Conservative party. Sadly it would seem he is one of those lacking in the ‘thinking capacity’.

    39. Derick fae Yell says:

      I expect this to be reported fearlessly and honestly by the good old impartial BBC. Why they even fly up a good old impartial journalist to do so. Step forward Mr James Naughtie. Enjoy

      http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2014-08-12/whats-stake-scottish-independence-referendum/transcript

    40. This “best of both worlds” nonsense: ask anyone coming out with this guff why they think they should be getting something that their fellow Britons aren’t.

      It doesn’t show a lot of respect for their countrymen/women.

    41. Adrian B says:

      On the John Lamont leaflet. ‘Scottington Post’ pointed out the following on twitter:

      Surely that isnt’ Andrew Meldrum (Lauder), Dep Chair of the Con Eildon Branch http://www.scottishbordersconservatives.org.uk/about-us

      Trevor Adams/St Boswells is just another ordinary voter it would seem. http://www.scottishbordersconservatives.org.uk/news

    42. Craig P says:

      I feel like I am living in a parallel universe. One where representatives from the UK government have given a written guarantee of pensions continuing to be paid. How can they say this stuff? It might play well with decided nos who won’t look any further, but surely undecideds will investigate beyond the atom-thin veneer of plausibility in these claims and see them for the barefaced lies that they are??

    43. ukp42 says:

      @Peter Campbell It’s not up to the SNP, it’s the Yes side which should use this to discredit the No side.

      Can we call the referendum date, ‘The Glorious 18th’ after Independence? 🙂

    44. Seasick Dave says:

      GH Graham

      The RBS told me today that they would be using whatever currency the Scottish Government told them to use.

    45. JWil says:

      A good bit of sleuthing by Stu.

      You would have thought that Mundell might have picked a genuine Tory supporting family, with no specific political responsibilities, for his endeavour. Is the only Tory MP in Scotland saying that he could only find this one family group from all of the people who voted for him? The Tories in Scotland really are in a worse state than we imagined.

    46. seanair says:

      “and the best armed forces in the world” (Alexander and Lavinia)
      What a claim-I think I’ll vote NO.
      Perhaps a printer’s error, should have been “the best food banks in the world”

    47. The Rough Bounds says:

      I was at the funeral of my wife’s mother earlier this week.
      She was one of that old breed of Scot; a native Gaelic speaker who didn’t have a word of English till she went to school in the Isle of Mull to have the English language drilled into her by non-Gaelic speaking teachers.

      Her grieving sons were wearing their kilts, as was I.

      As I waited my turn to be called to take one of the cords (an honour indeed) I had a look at the scenery around the cemetery. It was raining steadily but it seemed to suit the occasion, and the trees in these mid-Argyll hills were wreathed in coiling mist. It was, frankly, quite beautiful.

      I recall her once telling me the story, in her native Gaelic, of the water horse in Loch Assapol. This loch lies just above the house where she was born over 90 years ago.

      I still remember the actions that accompanied the story of the young girl combing the ‘young man’s’ hair when the girl suddenly noticed that what she was combing out of his hair was the fine gravel and reeds that are found only at the bottom of lochs and the realisation that what she had thought was a handsome young lad was in fact an Each Uisge in disguise and up to his usual tricks of deceit. It was fascinating to hear that tale.

      She is gone now, and so is a little bit of Scotland.

      I couldn’t give a damn about the arguments regarding currency, jobs, pensions. These things are all transient and they matter little in the grand scale of things.

      But I DO give a damn about my country’s culture. That is the reason I will be voting YES for independence. We must get it.

    48. steve andrews says:

      Can anyone assist ? I recently had a discussion with a “Dunno” and found it quite a difficult task countering her “banks-panic-emergency” scare as she turned it into “investors and ordinary account holders will start to withdraw their money from Scottish banks and Scottish branches, if a YES vote looks likely, there will be a run on the Banks the day after a a yes vote “. It occurred to me that the MSM could easily start such a scare before the vote and cause the required panic.

    49. Craig Brown says:

      I’m surprised that this mob still have the ability to disgust me.

    50. steve andrews says:

      Can anyone assist ? I recently had a discussion with a “Dunno” and found it quite a difficult task countering her “banks-panic-emergency” scare as she turned it into “investors and ordinary account holders will start to withdraw their money from Scottish banks and Scottish branches, if a YES vote looks likely, there will be a run on the Banks the day after a a yes vote “. It occurred to me that the MSM could easily start such a scare before the vote and cause the required panic.

    51. steve andrews says:

      Can anyone assist ? I recently had a discussion with a “Dunno” and found it quite a difficult task countering her “banks-panic-emergency” scare as she turned it into “investors and ordinary account holders will start to withdraw their money from Scottish banks and Scottish branches, if a YES vote looks likely, there will be a run on the Banks the day after a a yes vote “. It occurred to me that the MSM could easily start such a scare before the vote and cause the required panic.

    52. Tam Jardine says:

      Amazing that so many people could be asking the exact same questions using the same wording. It surely reflects the identical concerns of voters all over Scotland. And they are questions the Yes campaign led by Alex Salmond simply refuse to answer.

      The fact that all of these diligent conservative politicians answer in identical wording surely highlights how emphatic their answers are!

      I have another question for the No voters or undecided: if the Conservatives are lying routinely in this campaign as they so clearly are in misrepresenting constituents, (invented or not) why are you all so certain that they are telling the truth about our dwindling oil revenues, extending the powers of our parliament and refusing a currency union?

      They are strangers to the truth.

      The best of both worlds is fast becoming the most meaningless phrase used in this referendum. They say that if you repeat any word again and again it loses all meaning – BOBW has no meaning.

      The way it trots off the tongue ‘we can have the best of both worlds’ is how it is normally phrased, suggesting a situation that does not currently exist but CAN exist in the future. I believe it appeared long ago as ‘make the best of both worlds’. Sounds rather like ‘make the best of a bad bargain’.

      I am sure I will have heard this cretinous phrase at least 10,000 times by the 18th September. I suggest it is outlawed thereafter.

    53. stef thomas says:

      Andrew Meldrum, Neil Calvert, Craig Wood and Moira Hughes are all Conservative members listed on here: http://www.scottishbordersconservatives.org.uk/about-us

    54. galamcennalath says:

      To quote Derek Bateman, “If you ask a Scot why he believes in Union … They don’t say it’s socially just or there’s even distribution of resources or it has an outstanding record on human rights and social mobility. They don’t say it’s a fair society or it’s democratically run or it looks after its elderly, respects workers’ rights or leads the worldwide green agenda.”

      Indeed. That’s not the type of things those nice families above say, is it? There is a hint of Thatcherite “me and my family first, to hell with the rest of society”.

    55. Adrian B says:

      @ steve andrews

      RE – “banks-panic-emergency” Better Together activists are telling this story right across Scotland.

      If there is a run on the pound in Scotland then it will also happen everywhere that the pound is used. The reason is that there is NO difference in the pound used in the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernsey etc with the same currency in Wales, England, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8wB6ycSvMU&feature=youtu.be

    56. seanair says:

      “And the best armed forces in the world”
      What a claim! And also a lie.

    57. galamcennalath says:

      steve andrews says:
      “I recently had a discussion with a “Dunno” and found it quite a difficult task countering her “banks-panic-emergency” scare as she turned it into “investors and ordinary account holders will start to withdraw their money from Scottish banks and Scottish branches, if a YES vote looks likely, there will be a run on the Banks the day after a a yes vote “. It occurred to me that the MSM could easily start such a scare before the vote and cause the required panic.”

      Independence doesn’t happen on the 19th September. It will be banking as usual. There’s a lot of negotiations to follow and it will be in neither sides’ interests to cause any financial crisis. Anyway, what is a Scottish bank, these days?

      I worry about a lot of things is life, but that scenario wouldn’t give me any sleepless nights!

      Worry your “Dunno” about the disasterous austerity, cutbacks and privatisation of a No win.

    58. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Oh, once upon a time we had some of the best forces. Fully volunteer, well equipped, even well paid, because after the Falklands saved her political bacon Thatcher gave the military the biggest pay rise in modern history. Apparently even the old witch knew when it was good to be grateful.

      Not now, though. Still all volunteer but heading for half part time. Equipped, in exact terms, with nothing special since the UK Government prefers big showy items over daft wee things like body armour. And morale through the tarmac with those that remain permanent wondering where the axe will fall next. And when, because there’s a nasty habit of wielding it just before the point where their service length will qualify them for a full pension.

      On the article otherwise, nothing says ‘we have no grassroots’ better than having to use councillors in your shite as ‘normal’ citizens.

      And for The Rough Bounds. I would share your sadness, not because I know you or your family, but for that loss to the land. I too would vote Yes just for the chance to see that culture restored to a safe, vibrant, place in modern Scotland. I would need no other reason; it is only sadder yet that society and government has put Scotland in such a state that there are many others.

    59. heedtracker says:

      @ galamcennalath, people are not stupid and as a confirmed maybe says to me this aftennoon, “so I’m going to do a run on my bank, taking my overdraft and 125% mortgage off to England, me”

      Mundell is a sneaky shit.

    60. Greannach says:

      I wonder if they got tips from the Nobs on how to run their campaign. Maybe they were advised by Nobs expert Fiona’s office junior on ‘family repositioning’. Maybe they think the public are as dim as they are.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      @Tattie-bogle

      Wow! “think very carefully before voting No”. My reading of this is McLeish’s damned close to suggesting people vote Yes.

    62. handclapping says:

      And just where are all these people going to put their money, and in what currency? Draw your money from RBS and deposit it in NatWest? All that that does is close your local branch and its ATM and make life difficult for you with the average broadband speeds in Scotland but heyho the MSM will punt it as required by HMG.

      Its the same bogeyman as the CU, take something that people aren’t too sure about, mistify it, then go for there’s no smoke without fire and ask questions.

    63. geeo says:

      David Mundell emailed, await reply.
      ……..
      Mr Mundell, i have recently had it brought to my attention, a leaflet attributed to yourself which features a family who are seemingly giving the opinion of an “ordinary” family who give an account of why they are voting No on 18th September.

      Now i have no issue with that whatsoever, but when i learn that in fact this is the family of a local conservative councillor, then i strongly believe it becomes deliberately misleading to the electorate trying to decide which politicians they can trust with Scotland’s future.

      It seems to me that this is a complaint which needs reporting to the electoral commission to request their opinion on if it is misleading or not.

      I would contact the Mainstream media with this, but it seems a bit pointless when they seem incapable of political balance these days regarding the referendum, although the Dailey Record might take it on due to their historic dislike of the Conservatives.

      I feel it fair however to give you a right to reply before taking further action.

      Over to you Mr  Mundell.

               

    64. Les Wilson says:

      Hard to imagine we can just forget all this crap.

    65. Grouse Beater says:

      Busted again!

      Wrong. Absolutely wrong.

      Which newspaper or news broadcaster will announce the leaflets are bogus and the content lies?

      Don’t doubt for a minute that lies will not help reinforce deep-seated prejudices. They will do their work well.

      People who compose false ‘facts’ should be fined, the politicians who approve and endorse the leaflets jailed.

      But even if they lose their seat at the next general election they will be awarded a fat pension for the rest of their lives – at our expense, the tax payer.

      They are the equivalent of those who took the English shilling in 1707 – they sell out their own country and democracy with it … and get better off.

    66. TYRAN says:

      It’s like the letters from Viz.

      http://i46.tinypic.com/ftix53.jpg

    67. Papadox says:

      STV HMG PROPAGANDA UNIT.

      Who is Prof. Ronald Mcdonald and what rock did he crawl from under?

    68. rookiescot says:

      Stu you need to blur out the contact details of these people or its going to end in sadness mate.

    69. geeo says:

      Ronald Mcdonald is a clown…!

      FACT !!!!!

    70. Tam Jardine says:

      Tattie-bogle

      Henry McLeish seems to be egging himself on in this referendum, toying with the idea of crossing the floor and backing Yes. I would respect him if he finally came out and just said what his head and heart are telling him to say.

      He has been teasing us with these little glimpses of pro-yes for an age now. September 19th is too late to find that courage. There stands a man who wants to say Yes but just can’t find it in him to do it.

      If any man needs a Wee Blue Book it is Henry. We are trying to build a new Scotland and if he steps up and takes a stand others in the labour party who have been taking a back seat might find their courage also.

      And Kezia… its no too late for you either. You might even save your career! Now there is a cause a labour MSP can really get behind.

    71. geeo says:

      @rookiescot.

      Why ?
      The details you speak about are publically available on his own material.

    72. Juteman says:

      @Derek fae Yell.
      That was a fine example of Naughties ‘impartiality’. Unionist twat.

    73. donald anderson says:

      Chick, Izzat Mr Lamont screwing the phone box coin machine in desperation.

    74. geeo says:

      5 weeks for any labour MSP’s to cross the floor and try salvage their political careers.

      Some may say they are too late already, but not for me, if we state too late then why would any wanting to break ranks do so if it is ‘too late’?

    75. Juteman says:

      @The rough bounds.
      A sad picture you painted. Lets hope the future is more respectful than the past.

    76. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      This is a wee bit creepy.

    77. Eric D says:

      The media would be in a frenzy if Yes Scotland had been caught doing this.

      The bias sickens me, and I now see the journalists and editors the same way I see those MP’s exposed in the expenses scandals.
      The only difference is that some of those MP’s went to prison for lying and dishonesty.
      Those media hacks get away with it – or are promoted.

      Surely there MUST be some kind of election rule that says :

      ‘No lying to voters’?

    78. heedtracker says:

      4 Flippers lies in 10 seconds. shock!

    79. Democracy Reborn says:

      Genuine question for David Mundell’s Labour allies in Better Together:-

      Do you agree (per the leaflet) that the UK economy is “creating jobs at a record pace, and growing at the fastest rate in the western world”?

      @BuckieBraes

      Like you, I’m now sick of hearing the “best of both worlds”. It’s a phrase that’s synonymous with “having your cake & eating it”. For most of us in the real world, that rarely ever happens…& it certainly isn’t what Scotland gets out of the union.

    80. Croompenstein says:

      FFS Darling being allowed to witter on unchallenged

    81. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Surely there MUST be some kind of election rule that says ‘No lying to voters’?”

      Indeed, there certainly should be.

      It would stop politicians making up lies like claiming Scotland “will” be in a currency union and “will” become an EU member after a yes vote for example.

      Oh wait sorry, that was the SNP, doesn’t fit in with the narrative on here does it.

    82. piggy says:

      They cannot help themselves and are driven by fear and panic.
      We are led by great hope.
      They lie to us and cheat their own.
      We inform and seek to give.
      They propagate failure.
      We nurture growth.
      They have no future.

    83. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      Great article from Patrick Harvie, that neatly sums up why many yes campaigners are fed up of Salmond and his party and the damage they’ve caused to the chances of a yes vote:

      “Part of the problem is the SNP’s attempts to imply – quite wrongly – that a Yes vote is an endorsement of everything in their “white paper”, Scotland’s Future. By treating the referendum like an election, and trying to convince people that a Yes vote is a vote for this weighty manifesto, there is a real danger that they will alienate those who don’t support SNP policy on anything from corporate tax cuts to military expenditure. It’s tragic really”

      http://www.patrickharviemsp.com/2014/08/scotlands-future/

    84. heedtracker says:

      Flipper’s getting a real grilling on all kinds of issues, if only. What powers are Labour offering, waffle, 8 thousand jobs go with Trident, lies and on it goes.

      Why do we allow ourselves to be ruled by frauds like this.

    85. Bob Sinclair says:

      Flippers actually getting a bit of a doing from Sally Magnusson – who’d have thought.

    86. Marco McGinty says:

      Just to make it clear, JL and AD have it installed in their brains, that it is unclear which currency Scotland will use in the event of a Yes vote.

      If they cannot understand that Scotland will be using the pound, either in a currency union or not, they are imbeciles of the highest order.

      Vote Yes, to ensure that these buffoons never grace out televisions again!

    87. Croompenstein says:

      Ooh Alistair here are some fluffy kittens do you want your pillow puffed up….BBC Shite

    88. Gary says:

      Is it just me or is EVERYTHING they say a lie? Obviously they’ve been doing this for years, they’re well practised and slick. They’re just not used to anyone checking their information to see if it contains TRUTH. 100% truth free! How can they EVER be trusted again?

    89. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for going O/T but just been watching the eyebrows being questioned by Sally Magnusson. I have to admit firstly that she was far far better than Jackie Bird last night. Secondly she was pretty firm in her questioning of the eyebrows. I don’t think he got as free a ride as we all thought he would when discussing this interview last night. Well done Sally you certainly surprised this viewer. :P{

    90. Croompenstein says:

      FFS Duggie’s back as well!

    91. heedtracker says:

      Well at least they corrected their recognition for Scots detective that SOLVED jack the ripper murders, the fantastically expensive idiots.

    92. uilleam_beag says:

      What on earth is “a country which is paying down its deficit” supposed to mean?

      You can pay down a DEBT, or work to reduce your deficit (the amount by which you fail to cover your expenses and thereby still increasing your debt), but there’s no paying down involved where a deficit is concerned.

      How strange that all three (until more are found) of these perfectly ordinary families managed to make the same glaring error in their entirely original identically worded statements.

    93. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “If they cannot understand that Scotland will be using the pound, either in a currency union or not”

      Er….but the point is that there’s a significant difference between using the pound in a currency union and using it unofficially outside one.

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the “best of both worlds”.

      The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_terminating_cliche

    95. Brian Mchugh says:

      Darling doesn’t even have a ‘Plan A’ upon the outcome of a Yes vote… he just thinks everything bad.

      No proposals, no vision and no aspirations… he is the no campaign.

    96. heedtracker says:

      Flipper must be really desperate though if he’s reduced to lying about 8 thousand Trident sub jobs going, the harder they lie the more they know they are finished.

    97. Marco McGinty says:

      @Gary
      Is it just me or is EVERYTHING they say a lie? Obviously they’ve been doing this for years, they’re well practised and slick.

      It certainly seems that way. As for them being slick, I much prefer to categorise them as slimy.

    98. Indy_Scot says:

      How come Alistair never got the dragon.

    99. Famous15 says:

      The advert for the BIG debate shows AS with a moustache. I said to my family that I did not think he had a moustache.The reply was the BBC are making him appear like Hitler silly!

      Routine monstering and my family did not expect better from BBC.Oh dear!

    100. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      Oh dear, another nail in the coffin of the SNP’s version of ‘independence’:

      “One of the world’s top economists has warned that an independent Scotland’s economy would crash within seven years if it tried to use sterling.”

      If only the yes campaign had been controlled and dominated by the Scottish Greens and their plans for real independence with a Scottish currency, rather than the SNP’s sham version that would keep us economically shackled to rUK.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/14/independent-scotland-economy-crash-sterling-ronald-macdonald

    101. Breeks says:

      Can somebody define what the best of both worlds actually means in real terms? The Union treats us as second class citizens, lies to us, squanders our wealth, abuses us, under invests in our industry and infrastructure, forfeits out national interests to further their own. The home counties get the best of the Union. We don’t.
      Then there’s second part of ‘both’ which is I presume the limited degree of autonomy which devolution delivers. We don’t actually have any ‘best of independence’, just the best of devolution. The strongest manifestation of devolution I see is the fight to defend Scotland’s interests and services from Westminster’s interference. Such energies and preoccupations disappear with independence. We don’t therefor get the best of limited autonomy either.
      The Best of Both Worlds is a myth. The best we can expect is never more than a grubby compromise permanently rooted in the middle of the spectrum. We don’t get the best of anything, – ever.

    102. McTim says:

      Thanks for this article, Rev. Shared on Facebook. Re McLeish: what does it take to get this man to finally commit to Yes? He sounds like he knows it’s the right thing to do but for some reason he can’t get himself to commit to it.

    103. Big Jock says:

      His classic line about what currency he would use was…Well they are all rubbish.So in his world every other independent nation and currency is sub standard compared to the UK pound.What an arrogant and insulting narrow minded little P##ck.Good God I just can’t get over this level of arrogance.

    104. Scotspine says:

      Darling, when challenged about the affordability and feasibility (is that a word?, or did I make it up?) of Trident being removed from the Clyde, responds by saying words to the effect “instead of spending billions moving Trident, we can spend that money on Hospitals etc” FFS! FFS! What about the ethics of the thing, never mind that the money we can spend on civic things instead of buying a replacement for Trident is in the billions. The man is a class A idiot.

      By the way, well done Sally Magnusson. It’s a start.

    105. donald anderson says:

      Flipper and Bailie do not know where to9 stick the Trident Post Independence. Anyone?

    106. haud on the noo says:

      I emailed Mr Lamont on receipt of the above leaflet.

      =========

      Mr Lamont

      I have just received the latest in the long line of BT propaganda via the post..

      I am sure the entire edifice could be and doubtless has been destroyed by others but lets just stick to the first Q&A.

      Q: “Will we still be able to use the UK pound…etc ” Edna Tait – Hawick

      A : NO , the Chancer……..etc.. will not agree to Scotland using the pound…

      False and deceitful as you well know – the pound is an internationally tradeable currency and anyone can use the pound.

      The “true” answer is they have currently refused a currency union which is a different matter altogether. I know you understand all this fine but seem happy to parrot Westminsters/BT lies for whatever your personal agenda may be. You may well believe NO is the correct answer and you are entitled to that view but using untruths to achieve that is pretty sad.

      I assume you will be producing another leaflet which corrects the large number of “anomalies”.

      Dare you not dream of a better and fairer Scotland ?

      Regards ….
      =======

      His reply (at least he bothered..)

      Dear Mr Haudonthenoo,

      I’m pleased that my leaflet has arrived.

      I don’t accept your analysis but we will just need to agree to disagree.

      Kind regards.

      John

    107. Les Wilson says:

      Gary says:

      They most certainly cannot be trusted again, ever.
      We should make sure after a yes, that the lies they have poured onto the Scottish people for their own ends are widely distributed so every one of us is aware and reminded of what they did.
      They are finished here.

    108. Croompenstein says:

      It wouldn’t even need Prof Robertson to compare the two interviews the big burd – FM and Sally – Flipper. We could get the new primary ones to tell us.

    109. Scotspine says:

      Oh, and by the way, Darling called Yes and SNP liars and then referred to himself as Scottish.

      Was he not born in London, England in the 1950’s?

      (by the way, in case anyone claims so, that’s not an anti English comment, just an observation of fact)

    110. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      To be fair, given the fact that the Scottish Government’s own official white paper (produced at taxpayer’s expense) is riddled with lies and mistruths and false claims, we can’t really whine about anyone doing likewise.

    111. galamcennalath says:

      Tam Jardine says:

      “Henry McLeish seems to be egging himself on in this referendum, toying with the idea of crossing the floor and backing Yes.
      And Kezia… its no too late for you either. You might even save your career! Now there is a cause a labour MSP can really get behind.”

      Whatever the motivation, some ScoLabs crossing the floor at this point in the campaign would be a game changer. The more, the better. Come on ScoLab and ScotLib politicians, some of you know you really should make the jump to the winning side!

    112. heedtracker says:

      Stewart Mckenzie says:
      14 August, 2014 at 6:53 pm
      Oh dear, another nail in the coffin of the SNP’s version of ‘independence’:

      Stewie, can Scotland do any worse than the Westminster freak show? And Ronald McDonald is a clown, works at McDonalds.

    113. piggy says:

      Their words tell us they are driven by fear and panic.
      We are led by great hope and understanding.
      They lie to us and cheat their own.
      We inform and seek to give.
      They cause neglect and failure.
      We nurture growth and prosperity.
      Our hope is eternal.
      They have no future.

    114. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “We should make sure after a yes, that the lies they have poured onto the Scottish people for their own ends are widely distributed so every one of us is aware and reminded of what they did”

      Like, for example, exposing the SNP’s white paper lie that Scotland “will” be in a currency union after independence, once the currency union is rejected and we’re forced to grub around for a non-existent plan B?

    115. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      Does someone want to reboot ‘piggy’ it seems to be repeating itself.

    116. fred blogger says:

      their whole campaign is based on a print run, and endlessly repeating the same stuff over and over again.
      good to see sincerity in politics has not fallen victim to greed.
      so that’s diversity and creativity out of the window.
      little boxes made out of ticky, tacky, comes to mind.

    117. galamcennalath says:

      Trolljegeren, my favourite movie of the moment ……

    118. Justin Kenrick says:

      @ Rough Bounds (14 August, 2014 at 5:43 pm)

      A powerful picture you paint.

      These stories and people and relations are the life of us, one that is forever vanishing and yet at the same time forever strengthening. We now are part of the strengthening: the mourning, the celebrating, the belonging. Thank you

    119. Lesley-Anne says:

      OK come on guys own up who left the gate open? 😛

    120. donald anderson says:

      “The best of both worlds” Is a scientific term for space cadets, or two faced politicians with their noses towards Westminster and their tails to Scotland.

      Being a proud Scot means being in the tradition of Sir John de Menteith, Ramsay MacDonald, Wee Willie Rennie and their same party followers

    121. heedtracker says:

      @Stewart Mckenzie
      Read that nasty buffoon Carrell;s hourly monstering of all things Scots but come on dude, Scots oil is 20% of Scots GDP, even under Westminster but Ronald freakin MacDonald says we’ll overnight become a petro economy and a bankrupt one to boot
      Ronald MacDonald should stick to burger flipping Stewie

      “In a damning critique of Salmond’s proposals, MacDonald said that independence would immediately mean that Scotland became a petro-economy. That would leave it heavily exposed to higher prices in shops, wage rises, a significant trade deficit and increasingly expensive exports.”

    122. Croompenstein says:

      I must admit though I was a wee bit surprised when Sally gave a heads up to the magnificent document produced by the Scottish Govt, Scotland’s Future when she asked Flipper why there was no equivalent vision from the nawbags old Flipper just gave it look a squirrel. The only white paper he could produce would be Andrex Velvet to wipe his mouth to clean all the shite from it.

    123. Paula Rose says:

      I am an ordinary voter and as such I will not be eating trolls – I won’t even mention their “names”.

    124. ronnie anderson says:

      Where do I sign up I wunt to lead a life less ordinary.

    125. Juteman says:

      Don’t feed it folks. Please.

    126. Juteman says:

      Don’t feed it.

    127. Andy-B says:

      Did I hear right, did STV news at 6pm say that Professor Ronald MacDonald, said that Scottish independence would cause the stock markets to CRASH!!!!!

      I know Professor MacDonald backs Better Together but surely this comment is dangerous scaremongering, and it could lead to some sort of panic.

    128. Joe Swan says:

      The F One Show is asking people to send in pictures of the real CU Jimmies.

      Maybe they should ask Russ Abott what he thinks of Scottish Independence.

      I am going to stop watching this crap or I will have to increase my blood pressure meds.

      Oh that’s right Jocks. It’s only a joke.

      F right off BBC

    129. Colin Mccartney says:

      my god, i didn’t realise there were so many tories in scotland !!!!!! those pandas need to get breeding, and quickly.

    130. Lesley-Anne says:

      I’m sure that at the start of the programme Darling was sat there looking all smug as Larry, sorry Larry. 😉 By the end of the interview I’m sure I was beginning to see signs of steam coming out of the eyebrows’s ears! 😛

    131. heedtracker says:

      @ Paula Rose, I like trolls, free range, organic but deep fried with chips and a cheeky young chianti.

    132. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “the magnificent document produced by the Scottish Govt, Scotland’s Future”

      You mean the document that many others in the yes campaign are criticising and blaming for the yes vote failure (so far)?

      “Part of the problem is the SNP’s attempts to imply – quite wrongly – that a Yes vote is an endorsement of everything in their “white paper”, Scotland’s Future. By treating the referendum like an election, and trying to convince people that a Yes vote is a vote for this weighty manifesto, there is a real danger that they will alienate those who don’t support SNP policy on anything from corporate tax cuts to military expenditure. It’s tragic really”

      http://www.patrickharviemsp.com/2014/08/scotlands-future/

    133. Joe Swan says:

      Sorry for going O/T

    134. macart763m says:

      Mendacious, two faced, hypocritical, treacherous, devious, cynical, heartless liars. And those are just their good points.

    135. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      Stewart McKenzie, writing the words
      Of a sermon that no one will hear.

      It’s just project fear…

    136. Quentin Quale says:

      Conan, splendid sir. An anagram of Eleanor Rigby: yer ignorable…

    137. heedtracker says:

      @ Lesley-Anne, Flipper’s an old soldier, he looks freaked out but he’s really blocking any interruption/questions with full on bettertogether bluster. He knew exactly the questions coming and had all the usual empty strength power safeness crap ready and waiting.

    138. Andy-B says:

      @Rough Bounds.

      Nice sentiment, I couldn’t agree more, its not all about currency and material things, independence is much much deeper.

    139. Croompenstein says:

      I do like that beautifully crafted prospectus that the Scottish Govt published, Scotland’s Future. I also like the Rev’s Wee Blue Book. Two magnificent productions that will be held up, rightly, as legendary in the campaign for a better Scotland

    140. heedtracker says:

      @ Stewart Mckenzie, come on Stewie, you posted a clown like Carrell’s Scotland;s a collapsed petro-economy in waiting and you got the stats back, so stop being such a dick.

    141. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “I do like that beautifully crafted prospectus that the Scottish Govt published, Scotland’s Future. I also like the Rev’s Wee Blue Book”

      They’re both full of lies and unproven claims and made up ‘facts’, but to be fair given the former is an official government publication that was created using taxpayer’s money by (supposedly) neutral civil servants, and the latter is just an amateurish effort by some dedicated foot soldiers to the cause, I’d be inclined to forgive the latter more.

    142. heraldnomore says:

      Oh look. Second question on Mundell’s drivel sheet – Mr Allison, Biggar – that’ll be Alex of that ilk, former tory cooncillor, but now just an ordinary farmer, and regular with a BT/NT badge on whenever they can muster enough for a stall.

      Must see who else is there.

    143. Papadox says:

      Folks there are more than a few trolls spreading shit tonight don’t bite. We are under a attack, they must have got out of the sewer when they opened it to let Darling out to spew his lies to EBC.

      Sally did pretty good with Flipper credit where credits due. Flipper just a PARASITE! Nasty vile excuse for a man,

    144. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “come on Stewie, you posted a clown like Carrell’s Scotland;s”

      Er….I’m not sure you understand how articles work. Carrell wrote the article, but the claims in the article aren’t his, they’re the opinions of “one of the world’s top economists…Professor Ronald MacDonald, a currency expert who advises the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank”.

      I’m sure though, as is always the way, his expert economic views will be trashed and attacked by the SNP followers, while the views of some other economic expert will be held up as the word of God by those very same individuals – simply because one agrees with their party and one doesn’t.

    145. handclapping says:

      Mendacious, two faced, hypocritical, treacherous, devious, cynical, heartless liars.

      I’m sorry, it’s still not enough to get you elected. Where’s spite, a strong sense of entitlement and the desire for enoblement at least?

    146. heedtracker says:

      @Stewart Mckenzie, They’re both full of lies and unproven claims and made up ‘facts,’are they not Stewie?

      This is a cracker from our noble and honest neutral civil service in Whitehall, or just another bunch of con men, also buying full page ads in the ferocious NO Press and journal.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-the-uk-10-myths-10-facts

      “Fact: During the last crisis the UK taxpayer shelled out £66 billion to bail out the banks – more than £1,000 for every man, woman and child in the UK. Including guarantees, UK taxpayers gave more than £320 billion of support to Royal Bank of Scotland alone. Could we really afford these sorts of sums on our own?”

      Some Fact are more facty than others. Wont miss the teamGB civil service.

    147. Lesley-Anne says:

      True enough heedtracker. It’s almost like he has his “here’s one I’ve prepared earlier” segment plugged in when he faces these sort of interviews. I loved his answer to what we will get if Scotland votes NO. Oh you’ll get a,b,c which just so happens to be exactly the same s***e we are already due to get via the Scotland Act 2012. What a pity he failed to understand the, in my view, very simple question from Sally.

      I’ve come to the conclusion that Darling is the sort of person who when asked if he wanted milk and sugar with his tea answers no I want sugar and milk! 😛

    148. Paula Rose says:

      @ Heedtracker – I could agree with young and cheeky but the Rev might rap my digits.

    149. call me dave says:

      Good article challenging the Great Nictator and Labour about their claims that the Scottish NHS was in danger from the Tories during the 2010 campaign.

      http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/9589-yes-scotland-challenges-alistair-darling-on-nhs-funding-hypocrisy

    150. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      ” I loved his answer to what we will get if Scotland votes NO. Oh you’ll get a,b,c”

      At least that’s two more options than Salmond gave us on currency.

    151. heedtracker says:

      @ Stewart Mckenzie, ok forget Carrell, you posted it, why is Scotland going to become a petro-economy over night Stewie, let alone a failed one?

      Ronald MacDonald is one of a number of Professors that are foisting UKOK propaganda on Scotland presumably in the hope that the title Professor means stuff like don’t talk back, with facts n shit.

      These days have long past Stewie, in case you haven’t noticed

    152. turnip_ghost says:

      This really makes me angry. They rely on people in each of those constituencies not being able to talk to each other. They’re treating us like idiots. Can we write to them and ask them who each of these people are asking the same questions?!

    153. heedtracker says:

      @ Lesley-Anne, its meant to be about trust no? Its really about their work record and Flipper skipped by his past life as the Chancellor of the Exchequer with “I have experience of these things,” which may work, if you’re a goldfish:D

    154. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Ronald MacDonald is one of a number of Professors that are foisting UKOK propaganda on Scotland”

      Yes yes of course, he’s ‘biased’ and probably being ‘paid’ by the no campaign isn’t he.

      Seriously, this sort of ludicrous tin hat conspiracy theory guff that you SNP followers come out with just makes you a laughing stock.

    155. macart763m says:

      @Handclapping

      That along with arrogant, patronising and condescending would complete the set right enough.

    156. BigRik says:

      I am not related to anyone in a political party , nor am i involved myself , so , i suppose i can’t be an “ordinary voter”…. What’s that make me then??

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Prof.Ronald MacDonald. Is Glasgow University not a bit of a unionist stronghold, as well as being his employer? Although he is currently the Adam Smith Professor of Political Economy at the Adam Smith School of Economics and Finance (University of Glasgow), the Adam Smith Institute appears to disagree with his opinion.

      http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-banking/how-scotland-could-flourish-by-unilaterally-keeping-the-pound/

      http://www.adamsmith.org/wp-content/uploads/Independent_Scotland_Riches.pdf

    158. gerry parker says:

      O/T.
      Livestream from Bearsden.

      Kevin contacted me. There are very few people at this event. Anyone in that area who can attend please do.

      I didn’t get the usual e mail notification of the event.
      Looking for details just now.

    159. fred blogger says:

      BigRik
      it makes you someone who exercise’s their right to choose.

    160. Christine Sinclair Kabashi says:

      Lavinia! Theres a conservative name if ever I heard one.

    161. Andy-B says:

      @Stewart Mackenzie.

      Re Ronald MacDonald, STV announced after his inane comment that Professor MacDonald was supporter of Better Together, now if that isn’t conclusive evidence I don’t know what is.

      I do wish scatter mouths like yourself would do their homework before blabbing away, are David Mundell in disguise?.

    162. donald anderson says:

      Ronald MacDonald made a clown of himself as will the career Brit Nat boy revolutionary, Owen Jones, against Tommy Sheridan on tonight’s telly.

    163. gerry parker says:

      Westerton Hall Maxwell Ave Bearsden.

    164. heedtracker says:

      @ Stewart Mckenzie, Yes yes of course, he’s ‘biased’ and probably being ‘paid’ by the no campaign isn’t he.

      Stewie, luvy, read the article you posted you odd odd character.

      Sevey Carrell, the wretched old shill sayeth Ronald MacDonald is battering at Scotland and the future of Scotland but

      “He insisted he had done so because Better Together had commissioned him, and would have been “very happy” to give the same advice to the Scottish government, and denied taking a partisan stance on the referendum.”

      Prof MacDonald says he’s paid by Bettertogether to be neutral! and then he pukes fantastically biased vote NO grot based on a Scots oil GDP stat that even I can right click google. Maybe I should call myself the Professor Stewie?

    165. handclapping says:

      you SNP followers
      He’s not been on this blog long then.

    166. Tam Jardine says:

      Why dont we talk about the differences between the SNP’s position and that of the Scottish Greens for the rest of the night – I miss those discussions.

      We might even learn something new!

    167. Lesley-Anne says:

      heedtracker says:

      @ Lesley-Anne, its meant to be about trust no? Its really about their work record and Flipper skipped by his past life as the Chancellor of the Exchequer with “I have experience of these things,” which may work, if you’re a goldfish 😀

      There you go again heedtracker making assumptions about Better Thanks/No Together/ Project Feart or whatever. Didn’t you get the e-mail? You know the one it laid out what BT/NT/PF whatever understand, or rather do NOT understand, by the meaning of trust. 😛

      To be honest I’m amazed he even admitted having a past life of any description whatsoever. 😉

    168. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      Methinks the tellentroll has had enough exposure here for one day.

      See you on the Guardian.

    169. Juteman says:

      I’m starting to wonder who is the real troll?

    170. Nana Smith says:

      Anyone got the link for livestream Bearsden?

    171. TD says:

      Re McLeish, I think he is going to come out for Yes soon. I think he will do it at a time to create maximum impact which I would think will be around 2 -3 weeks before 18 September. He has come as close to doing so as he can without actually saying “Vote Yes”.

      Question is, are there any other Labour big beasts ready to do the same? I certainly hope so. If there are, I suspect they will co-ordinate the timing of their announcements. Exciting times.

    172. heedtracker says:

      @ Stewart Mckenzie, actually Stewie its a very cunning thingee there from Prof Ronald as in,

      I Prof Ronald am forecasting economic catastrophe for independent Scotland and yes I am being paid by Bettertogether but I would give the same prediction to SNP Scots.gov, so that makes me neutral.

      Genius Prof, meet Prof Curtice, a n other neutral.

    173. JWil says:

      I thought Alistair Darling didn’t come across very well tonight. It looked like he wasn’t going to let many of Magnusson’s questions be asked. Too much of the verbals. He just hogged the interview and come over as selfish and unthinking. The answers he did give came out by rote.

    174. Tam Jardine says:

      Juteman

      If there is a way to convey sarcasm more effectively, I am not aware of it. Just saying hello to an auld aquaintance.

    175. Lesley-Anne says:

      Funny enough TD I was just saying exactly the same thing about McLeish to my partner. I have always thought from day 1 that he was edging towards coming out for YES and this latest instalment yet again nudges him ever closer to grasping that nasty little thistle otherwise known as being a YES supporter. 😛

      Come on Henry you know you want to come out for YES. You know deep down inside that not only is your heart telling you it is the right move but your head is in total agreement! 😉

    176. IcySpark says:

      Mark Carney, November 2013:

      “My predecessor did have some very basic technical discussions with Mr Salmond within the course of the last couple of years. I certainly welcome the opportunity to have those discussions.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25154758

      John Swinney, August 2014:

      “The Scottish Government has had technical discussions with the Bank of England regarding our proposal for a currency union and we welcome their continued acknowledgement that the bank will introduce whatever the politicians decide.”

      Bank of England spokesman, 14th August 2014:

      “To be clear… the Bank of England has not entered into discussions with representatives of the Scottish government about proposals for future monetary arrangements in Scotland.
      “As the Governor said yesterday, the design of any changes to UK monetary and financial arrangements would ultimately be a matter for negotiation between the Westminster and Scottish Parliaments. The Bank of England will deliver whatever remit it is given.”
      The Bank says that in previous conversations between the Scottish Government and Mr Carney’s predecessor, Lord King of Lothbury, the Bank “did no more than answer technical questions from representatives of the Scottish government“.

      Why is this such a big story exactly? It’s all over the MSM and Alistair Darling mentioned it tonight on Reporting Scotland.

    177. heedtracker says:

      @ Lesley-Anne, sorry, Ive just been round my bowl once and forgot everything that’s ever happened. So Alistair Darling was Chancellor you say, how did that go? Really really well, interesting…

    178. JWil says:

      No one will know where we put our cross in the secrecy of the polling booth. However, if the labour people are going to cross the floor it is better if they come out and say it before hand so that they take others with them.

      I cannot for the life of me see that they are not aware of what they are letting Scotland in for if it’s a NO vote. They must put Scotland before self interest.

    179. Big Jock says:

      I heard the biggest labour beast ever is going to come out as yes.Overheard in Gregg’s:”More Bridie’s Jackie”..slurp drool” oh Yes please who needs food banks”.

    180. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      I find it interesting that Scots economy is £150 bn per year and yet Ronald McDonald says it’ll shrink by £100bn per year in 7 years…

      Sound feasible?

    181. Haggis Hunter says:

      Alexander Burnett’s say no to independence leaflet, the same one as featured on here was taped to a sign post near my house, on the same evening my Yes sign, which was put up with the farmers permission was thrown in a ditch, it was put up again and again vandalised.
      I have got a plan B for next time tho, and Tory toffs leaflet was used tae light the fire.

    182. Franariod says:

      Its like some B rated si-fi film. “The Day Of The Union Snatchers” Iv got my glasses on Rev

    183. Colin Morrison says:

      Tis easy explained “morphic knowledge”

    184. Chic McGregor says:

      Another one for Kirrie Aye TV’s virtual wall.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/ain52acanzhmn0g/TwoToriesSameStory.jpg

    185. Chic McGregor says:

      P.S. Check out the irony of the horrendous parsing of the cut’n paste job on the left and the words used:

      “whilst
      making our
      0 w n
      decisions”

    186. seanair says:

      Scotland Tonight. Rhonda seems to think it’s great that Rory Bremner will give his take on the referendum. I think we know what that means–the man has unionist form.

    187. seanair says:

      Scotland Tonight. Rhonda seems to think it’s great that Rory Bremner will give his take on the referendum. I think we know what that means–the man has unionist form.

    188. handclapping says:

      Trolls think of this blog as a sort of kabadi game, where they jump in spouting “pish” continuously and hope to snare a poster before the Rev blanks them and they have to get a new “identity”.

      I just wish they wouldn’t

    189. geeo says:

      Got a reply from mr mundell,
      He cannot answer my query as he is not my MP.

      Anyone here got the pleasure of being stuck with him as their MP fancy resending my email to him and see what he comes up with.

      Email is in my post at 6.09pm

      Thanks chaps.

      6.09pm.

    190. Bob Sinclair says:

      Can someone please direct the troll to the exit as it appears to be a wee bit wandered.

    191. Paula Rose says:

      Is Ronald MacDonald that clown who promotes mechanically recovered meat? Just asking, because I’ve seen more appetising pictures of effluent.

    192. Lesley-Anne says:

      heedtracker says:

      @ Lesley-Anne, sorry, Ive just been round my bowl once and forgot everything that’s ever happened. So Alistair Darling was Chancellor you say, how did that go? Really really well, interesting…

      WHIT?

      Did I say that?

      Wow, I must have had a Daily Mail (SPIT) moment there then heedtracker. 😛

      I’m currently watching the foodbank and Welfare reform meeting in Bearsden. Heart wrenching. I really, really, REALLY wish we had the power to take every singple unionist b*****d and stick them in a room and make them listen to these stories from the people who are at the sharp end of this disgusting situation caused 100% by WESTMINSTER!

      Only voting YES WILL help these people and 1,000’s like them and more importantly will ensure we can get the government that actually CARES about the people of Scotland. We all know Westminster doesn’t give a s***e about Scotland or the people of Scotland. Come on people we CAN do this. We WILL do this, NOT for ourselves but for people like Dennis Curran and Julie from Maryhill food bank!

      There got that off my chest, rant over, back to Bearsden now. 😛

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      handclapping
      Ever though how similar kabadi is to British bulldogs. 🙂

    194. cearc says:

      Chic,

      When you were jpging WBB did you manage to produce A5s that could be used?

      I think a few A5s would be very handy for some people with larger type.

    195. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “my Yes sign, which was put up with the farmers permission was thrown in a ditch”

      Wow, well done on finding a farmer who supports independence, they’re almost as rare as a hen’s tooth:

      http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/04/07/2014/145399/72-of-scots-farmers-against-independence-says-survey.htm

    196. Lesley-Anne says:

      For my crimes geeo I have Mr Mundell as my *ahem* M.P. so he has been duly e-mailed. 😛

    197. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Only voting YES WILL help these people and 1,000?s like them”

      But the SNP government already have control over many of the powers necessary to address the causes and reasons for poverty – economic development, education and training, healthcare, housing, law and order, local government.

      Their utter failure to even bother attempting to try to deal with the causes and reasons for poverty during their entire 7 years in power is shameful.

    198. Jamie Arriere says:

      Found something on the Cammy Young of Peebles (can’t be too many of them)- enjoying that mass participation sport of the grafters, horse racing. Must be real salt of the earth, he’s the one without a top hat on.

      http://www.peeblesshirenews.com/news/peebles/articles/2014/08/04/505687-excornet-cammy-takes-musselburgh-prize/

      He’s described as the ex-cornet of Peebles 2012, which I presume is a great local honour, so he should get along well with Tubatastic Blair and his organisation full of trumpets.

      He’s also described as ‘horse-mad’ – you can supply your own punchlines. (I bet he’s voting ‘neigh’ etc)

    199. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      This Ronald McDonald ‘study’ clearly a spoiler…

      First Sir Donald Mackay talks sense and undermines Better Together, then the BoE contingency planning and Carney comments undermine BT too…

      Next thing Better Togethers main economist comes out with DOOM prediction that makes no sense but guaranteed to grab headlines…

      Remember that this is the guy who tried to deflect attention away from £1400 ‘cost’ of Danny Alexander’s when it was debunked by insisting it was TOO LOW.

      Make your own mind up… I’ll wait for the ScotGov response tomorrow

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      Stewart Mckenzie
      Funny you should mention farmers supporting Independence. Here is a report about the exact same, in the rabidly Yes supporting Press and Journal.

      https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/referendum/314714/former-nfus-presidents-back-independence/?piano_d=1

    201. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      Wow, well done on finding a farmer who supports independence, they’re almost as rare as a hen’s tooth:

      Like the FOUR frmr farmers union presidents backing yes???

    202. Big Jock says:

      a2 regards farmers.What’s this noise ..wooft? Another unionist lie dropping into the cludgy.These people are not only liars but particularly bad liars.Do keep up unionists you will need to start getting out of bed at farmer o’clock to come up with something original.

    203. john king says:

      Whats going to happen to you Stewart? when you have to report back to you handlers that your attempts to break the seperatists will have had no effect?
      It’ll be back to the typing pool for you mlad, no more black ops, or is it wet ops? (as in in wetting your pants).

    204. Paula Rose says:

      Something blowing the barley?

    205. Big Jock says:

      Awe John go easy on him he’s no very bright.He will have to go back to Troll night school now!I tell you the standards are really dropping these days.

    206. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Like the FOUR frmr farmers union presidents backing yes”

      Er….no, like the tiny pitiful 10% of farmers who back yes (compared to a massive 72% who supporter no) according to a poll of almost 2,500 ordinary Scottish farmers.

      http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/04/07/2014/145399/72-of-scots-farmers-against-independence-says-survey.htm

    207. jon esquierdo says:

      Is Edinburgh Dave back in disguise?

    208. Robert Peffers says:

      @G H Graham says: 14 August, 2014 at 4:48 pm:

      “If it is indeed true that I am not allowed to keep the Pound Sterling, will someone from the Unionist/Better Together/NoThanks/UKOK/NoBorders/UK Gov/Treasury explain when the money in my bank account is going to be confiscated & what will I receive in return, if anything?”

      Well I did post it already but on another thread. So I’ll post it again here.

      What is deposited in the BofE vaults is BofE notes. Not in denominations like in your purses and wallets but Promisory Notes none the less. The Scottish notes you have promise to pay you Pounds Sterling. Have a look if you do not believe me.

      So the Scottish banknotes promise you sterling and the BofE promises the Scottish Banks to make that promise good. The real big fact that seems to have gone over most folks heads is that Oor Eck has played a real blinder and Westminster is Hoist by its own Petard.

      Here’s the logic and truth of the matter : –

      Eck tells them in no uncertain terms, “Scotland will use the Pound “and would prefer a Currency Union”

      This means that the choice of currency union or no currency union is exclusively Westminster’s choice”.

      The ba is now in Westminster’s court and Scotland’s ONLY choice is PLAN A. There are thus no other plans. The total numpties are so bloody inept that it flies right over their heads and ever since they are dancing upon the spot, stamping their wee, (all shot to hell), feet and demading like spoiled bairns, “Tell us your plan B”? ad infinitum”.

      Had you not realised that the instant that Scotland insists she will keep, HER OWN CURRENCY the pound but would rather do so in a currency union that whether we get one or not is no longer for Scotland to choose?

      If there is to be a plan B it is Westminster that will choose it and it can only be to use Sterling with NO Currency Union but if that’s the case then what of the UK national debt? Eck has played a blinder and backed the whole bloody lot of them into a corner.

      Now next time one of them demands he tell then Plan B you can roar at the screen or speaker – “You Tell us as we have no further say in the matter”.

    209. Croompenstein says:

      @johnking – I preferred oor Stewpot in this…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GktZgeOQWUk

    210. Paula Rose says:

      @ Big Jock – Its such a shame, we used to have quality here but now all we get are the wee must try harder sort, maybe that’s all that’s left?

    211. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “you cannot say that we fail to back up our arguments with evidence”

      So where is the ‘evidence’ for the following uncited claim made in the book then?

      “The rebate is a sum of money paid by the EU to the
      entire UK, including Scotland. It’s therefore a moveable
      UK asset, and as such will be part of the independence
      negotiations like any other asset. Scotland is entitled
      to its share.”

      Where is the ‘evidence’ for the claims made in the book that “most” economic experts think the UK parties are bluffing and that “most” economic experts think using sterling unofficially is a “BETTER” plan for Scotland?

      And that’s from just a quick glance through the book, I’m sure there are numerous other unproven unevidenced claims.

    212. Paula Rose says:

      Bless

    213. Hood says:

      TrollBoy said
      “Er….no, like the tiny pitiful 10% of farmers who back yes (compared to a massive 72% who supporter no) according to a poll of almost 2,500 ordinary Scottish farmers.”

      OOPS

      “Of the 2,497 farmers polled, 529 were from Scotland ”

      Back to paper shuffling duties for you.

    214. Clootie says:

      Stewart Mckenzie says:
      14 August, 2014 at 8:42 pm

      I see 350 of the 2500 farmers said they woould be voting NO at a forum of UK farmers.

      Why didn’t you say!

      It’s all over given that resounding set of data.

    215. BigRik says:

      Yes , it must be Edinburgh Dave.. i take it he has a book of Scottish names.. Next Week , Hamish McSporran , it probably sound better than the real name…Tarquin Blythe-Bagshott.

    216. Paula Rose says:

      Ordinary, so ordinary, I love being in an extraordinary country.

    217. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “The ba is now in Westminster’s court and Scotland’s ONLY choice is PLAN A. There are thus no other plans…If there is to be a plan B it is Westminster that will choose it and it can only be to use Sterling with NO Currency Union but if that’s the case then what of the UK national debt?”

      What on earth are you babbling about? Why on earth would Westminster need to decide a plan B for what would be a separate state?!

      I know you SNP followers are desperate to cling on to Westminster as much as you can, but demanding that it now makes a decision on what currency a separate independent Scotland should use is ridiculous.

      The plan B failure is entirely the fault of the SNP and the onus is on them, and them alone, to find us another option if the currency union is rejected.

    218. cearc says:

      Even his horse disagrees with him (Beg to Differ)!

    219. Big Jock says:

      Hey Stewart just as well yon SNP government scrapped tuition fees.Yon resits would have been costing you a fortune!

    220. Clootie says:

      Stewart Mckenzie says:
      14 August, 2014 at 8:45 pm

      Congrats
      You are the first poster who has managed to convey panic in the written word.
      Continue to practise. I have a feeling it will get easier over the next few weeks.

    221. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “I see 350 of the 2500 farmers said they woould be voting NO at a forum of UK farmers”

      Only 52 of them said they’d vote yes.

      Oh dear.

    222. crazycat says:

      @Big Rik

      It’s tellen1 – identical posts on here at 7.10 and the Guardian at 7.40. (Could also be Edinburgh Dave, of course, as well as at least one other.)

    223. cearc says:

      whoops,
      that last refers to Jamie A @8.32

    224. Black Douglas says:

      wow 350 out of 5 million what a deal breaker 🙂

    225. Big Jock says:

      Clootie does the scatter gun panic hectoring not just remind you of that dancing eyebrows fella.You know the one that dyes his eyebrows but not his hair due to the austerity thingammy.

    226. Clootie says:

      Stewart Mckenzie says:
      14 August, 2014 at 8:50 pm

      “…you SNP followers”
      Another piece of info you shouldn’t have given away – we have a Labour Troll.

      Also quite a new one as any of experience would have known the make up of this site.

    227. Paula Rose says:

      Time to stop throwing scraps to the dog.

    228. Tam Jardine says:

      handclapping

      Trolls think of this blog as a sort of kabadi game, where they jump in spouting “pish” continuously and hope to snare a poster before the Rev blanks them 

      Great game is kabadi. Had a wee look on Wikipedia – turns out the name derives from the Tamil words Kai-pidi, which literally mean “(let’s) hold hands”

      So mibbe that’s what Rory the Tory was really trying: a failed attempt at the Guinness World Record for the largest Kabadi chain across the border EVER!

      Repeating “Kabadi kabadi kabadi!” around the union memorial cairn is more achievable. I’d like to see that.

    229. Paula Rose says:

      btw has anyone found that elusive positive agenda for remaining UKish?

    230. Lesley-Anne says:

      Not just a Labour Troll Clootie but a seriously pissed off Labour Troll still fuming over the 2007 Holyrood result as per Lamont’s instructions. 😛

    231. Croompenstein says:

      The currency options are set out in some detail in that marvellous blueprint published by the Scottish Govt, Scotland’s Future, all your questions will be answered in this mighty piece of democratic literature.

    232. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “we have a Labour Troll”

      Presumably you’re aware of the fact that there are more than 2 political parties in Scotland?

    233. geeo says:

      @Lesley – Anne.

      Thanks for that.
      Was kinda fishing for you to do it anyhoo…but i cannot be seen to show favouritism to a fellow Insomniac for Yesser..lol

    234. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “The currency options are set out in some detail in that marvellous blueprint published by the Scottish Govt, Scotland’s Future”

      You mean the fiscal commission’s academic assessment of the currency options, none of which are developed or planned to any level of detail?

      The fiscal commission who strongly urged against Salmond’s likely plan B – sterlingisation?

      Oh dear.

    235. Black Douglas says:

      A labour 👿 then confirmed 😀

    236. Terry G says:

      In the Burnett leaflet the question asked by Marcus of Dinnet is probably Marcus Humphrey one time Tory Councillor

    237. Big Jock says:

      Are the UK government going to pre/negotiate on who gets custody of the famous dancing eyebrows?Or will we just auction them like the Tunnochs Tea cakes.They are techbnicaly a shared asset to the Yes campaign.Lol.

    238. laukat says:

      o/t – Have a look on twitter at the conversation between Andrew Nicoll (political editor of the Sun), Simon Johnson (the Telegraph) and Ben Riley-Smith. It would appear the Bank of England told Andrew Nicoll that there have been discussiona with between the Bank of England and the Scottish Government on a currency union.

    239. Paula Rose says:

      Have you noticed how ordinary those people at the top of the page are? Do the other parties in Scotland have ordinary people as well?

    240. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Funny you should mention farmers supporting Independence. Here is a report about the exact same, in the rabidly Yes supporting Press and Journal”

      Yep, so that’s four extra farmers who support independence who we can add to the tiny 10% of those who also do according to the below poll.

      Well done.

      http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/04/07/2014/145399/72-of-scots-farmers-against-independence-says-survey.htm

    241. Quentin Quale says:

      O/T I see Stu has posted an article about BT leaflets bearing striking similarities in content and questions. Oh wait, this is the thread. Erm, was the thread.

    242. Black Douglas says:

      Time to ignore the 👿 its starting to repeat itself just like the BT merry-go-round of project fear.

    243. Paula Rose says:

      No-one has mentioned it of late – but around Angus where I live, many farming folk are switching to Yes, are other people finding the same?

    244. Brotyboy says:

      I’m starting to wonder who is the real troll?

      Me too. Perhaps the poster who insists on feeding them all, to absolutely no purpose, despite the Rev’s warning?

      Imminent ban? Can but hope.

    245. Big Jock says:

      I agree best to ignore or speak of in the third person.Never a good idea to enter into personal discourse.

    246. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for an interlude? Sorry if not immediately accessible, but these guys are my favourite band right now, and I think they get Project Fear. Why is it that I only discover bands after they break up?

      Messer Chups – Dark Story
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHkMeKw2XQ

    247. M Mackintosh says:

      @The Rough Bounds

      A small world! I was at that funeral too. I knew the lady when she was the Gaelic tutor of the local Gaelic choir. A lovely lady – and great fun too! Cannot agree with you more. “I couldn’t give a damn about the arguments regarding currency, jobs, pensions. These things are all transient and they matter little in the grand scale of things.

      But I DO give a damn about my country’s culture. That is the reason I will be voting YES for independence. We must get it”

    248. IcySpark says:

      The story I posted at 7.55pm is blowing up all over the MSM and the internet.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11035334/Alex-Salmond-accused-of-misleading-voters-over-Bank-of-England-currency-union-claim.html

      and yet Mark Carney said “My predecessor did have some very basic technical discussions with Mr Salmond within the course of the last couple of years. I certainly welcome the opportunity to have those discussions.” with regard to a CU.

    249. fred blogger says:

      Stewart Mckenzie
      can you tell me why the fiscal commission urged against sterlingisation aka plan B?
      please and thank you in anticipation of your reply.

    250. Paula Rose says:

      I’m not a fan of using the word ‘ordinary’ to describe the people I meet everyday – each of them has a unique life that is extraordinary, across Scotland we are witnessing many, many people engaging in a debate about our future.

    251. Paula Rose says:

      @ The Rough Bounds and M.Mackintosh xxx

    252. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “No-one has mentioned it of late – but around Angus where I live, many farming folk are switching to Yes”

      Yes yes I’m sure.

      Another re-tread of the tired old ‘the polls are all wrong and rigged’ cos my gran/neighbour/local farmer/some random man down the pub says they’re voting yes.

    253. Paula Rose says:

      Oh btw seeing as nobody has commented since my last one- do you have an order of service, so that we can express our condolences?

    254. Paula Rose says:

      We are a loving and caring community, what is good for one is good for all.

    255. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “can you tell me why the fiscal commission urged against sterlingisation aka plan B?”

      The Fiscal Commission can tell you themselves:

      “there is the option for Scotland to adopt Sterling through an informal process of ‘sterlingisation’. While this option would retain some of the benefits of a formal monetary union there would also be some additional drawbacks. In this instance, the Scottish Government would have no input into governance of the monetary framework and only limited ability to provide liquidity to the financial sector – this would depend on the resources and reserves of the country. The amount of currency available would depend almost entirely on the strength of the Scottish Balance of Payments position. The two clear options for Scotland are therefore to seek to join a formal monetary union
      with Sterling or the Euro.”

      http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00414291.pdf

    256. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave Beveridge says: 14 August, 2014 at 5:24 pm:

      “It doesn’t show a lot of respect for their countrymen/women.”

      Oh! You mean like how Scots, on a per capita GDP basis, contribute more to the De Facto parliament of the Kingdom of England at Westminster than we get back on a per capita funding basis and till are forced to pay towards those London & England only infrastructure projects that carry no Barnett Consequentials? Like, for example the London New Sewerage system, London Cross-Rail, grant towards setting up Transport for London, London Olympics, Several HS rail links, the London Dome, the refurbishment of all London Bus & Rail terminals. et al.

    257. Scotspine says:

      @ Stewart McKenzie

      Whisssssshhhhhhpshhhhhhhh White noise or tinitus? Cant quite make my mind up on that , but certainly an irritating background noise.

    258. Spout says:

      Re: “Mr McKenzie”

      As I said on the last thread.

      The Cringe is strong with this one.

      Much work to be done – best to put your time/energy into something else……. 🙂

    259. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      According to the ‘wee blue bible’ (sorry, book):

      “Many economic experts actually believe that using Sterling
      “unofficially” would be a BETTER plan for Scotland”

      Quite apart from the fact that the claimed “many” experts seems to consist of just one expert, oddly the book fails to mention the fact that the SNP’s own Fiscal Commission strongly advised against sterlingisation – and indeed ruled it out completely as one of the two clear options they suggested should be used.

      Oh dear.

    260. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “As I said on the last thread”

      Repeating it again doesn’t make it any better I’m afraid.

    261. Paula Rose says:

      Let’s have some ordinary words…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3jT5AGEK08

    262. Giving Goose says:

      Stewart Mckenzie

      It’s healthy to see you on here, representing a different view.

      We can trade statistics regarding farmers supporting Yes, for instance, but there is still a massive UK national debt, evidence of an economic model that doesn’t work. And what about the 1 in 5 Scottish children living in poverty that are a direct consequence of this failed model?

      Re “the SNP government already have control over many of the powers necessary to address the causes…”

      You are missing a fundamental point. If the Scottish government used these powers, Scotland would find itself effectively paying twice attempting to address the issues.

      Remember that Scottish revenue goes to London, then a block grant less than the total revenue gathered is then “awarded” to Scotland to manage services. Taxing Scots extra is not the answer; using Scotland’s total revenues wisely is the answer. Now London could do this but chooses not to…ergo you have discontent and an Independence movement to address the issue.

      Ultimately the Independence debate can be distilled down to a very simple question, and it is this;

      Do you believe in a compassionate form of government that has, at it’s core, the best interests of the people, their health, wellbeing, their education, a mixed economy with access to employment, an ethical foreign policy, a realistic appraisal of the state’s place in a global context?

      If the answer to that question is “Yes” then it cannot be achieved within a UK context. So a No vote is out of the question.

      Only a Yes vote in the referendum will enable this to happen in Scotland.

      However, if compassion in Government is something that you do not identify with then feel free to vote No. And the best of luck to you.

    263. geeo says:

      Stop letting this bawsack set the direction of a thread ffs.
      Ignore him before Stu has a meltdown at you.

    264. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      Dear Stewie,

      ScotGov paper on EU


      “Scotland would continue to be a net financial contributor to the EU budget after 2020. The net budget contribution will reflect the outcome of negotiations on issues such as the rebate and an independent Scotland?s share of EU spending programmes. The current EU budget has been agreed until 2020 and as such the Scottish Government would not intend to re-open budget discussions until the next financial period post 2020. Scotland and rUK will be required to negotiate the division of the UK?s contribution up to 2020.”

      http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0043/00439166.pdf

    265. Jon D says:

      Tellen1/Edinburgh Dave/Brigadoon Gent,
      Lives opposite me in Buckstone, Edin Pentlands.
      Comfortable looking in his own skin.
      Certainly not.

    266. handclapping says:

      Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy)
      I find it interesting that Scots economy is £150 bn per year and yet Ronald McDonald says it’ll shrink by £100bn per year in 7 years…

      Sound feasible?

      You’re like to loose your Alert Reader badge, Scott. Its quite simple, all that happens is the value of the pound trebles in the seven years so exactly the same output is measured as only worth £50bn at the new value of the £.

      Feasible, well I can remember a £ worth 5$, 10 marks, 12 kroner so definitely possible; its only when you think of Westminster’s involvement in the process that it becomes infeasible

    267. Paula Rose says:

      Darlings go up a bit to 9:32 and have a listen.

    268. Lesley-Anne says:

      geeo says:

      Stop letting this bawsack set the direction of a thread ffs.
      Ignore him before Stu has a meltdown at you.

      Well if I may make a wee suggestion geeo.

      The old meeting hall round the back of “The Darkened Room” is currently free perhaps he and anyone else wanting to have a wee *ahem* discussion might like to move over there. 😉

    269. snode1965 says:

      strange article in The Times today. Apparently the UK internet is on overload to the point of collapse, causing problems connecting to various sites. The providers are working on upgrade, although it will take two months. W.T.F. Pass the tin foil.

    270. fred blogger says:

      Stewart Mckenzie
      obviously these recommended options can only be actioned post yes.
      the euro for example will take 2 or more yrs, to put into place, post yes.
      after the yes vote we will have the £ up until it is decided otherwise.
      post indy yes vote we will have a currency.

    271. Paula Rose says:

      Fabby times dolls – we are on the road to freedom, not only for Scotland, we do have a bit of past form in revolutionary wherewithal 😉

    272. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      For a site that claims not to support the SNP or to be ‘affiliated’ with their version of independence, its odd that the ONLY currency option even discussed in the ‘wee blue book’ is the SNP’s plan to keep the pound – either in a currency union or unofficially.

      A Scottish currency – as advocated by the Scottish Greens, and numerous other independence organisations and individuals, isn’t even mentioned ONCE in the entire publication.

    273. laukat says:

      @icyspark
      Have a look at the following twitter conversation between Andrew Nicoll and SImon Johnson (he wrote the article you linked to). Andrew Nicoll appears to say that not only did Bank of England say they had discussions but that they had discussions on currency Union. If true and Nicoll publishes this would be dynamite!

      @AndrewSNicoll The statement from Dec 2012? You left out second bit: no “dialogue” on “changing monetary arrangements”.
      Andrew Nicoll ?@AndrewSNicoll 3h
      @benrileysmith Swinney’s quote yesterday was “technical discussions.” BoE confirms “technical discussions”
      Simon Johnson ?@simon_telegraph 2h
      @AndrewSNicoll @benrileysmith Swinney’s quote yesterday said the subject of the discussions was a currency union. BoE didn’t say that
      @simon_telegraph @benrileysmith they did to me.
      @AndrewSNicoll then it’s pretty odd the Scottish government is not repeating it’s claim the currency union was discussed

    274. scottish_skier says:

      Noticed the troll level up on various sites, notably polling ones. It’s just mainly panic.

      They’ll talk again and again about ‘the polls’. However, they’ll not talk about ‘our grassroots’ or ‘our canvassing’ nor about stories of converting people to No etc.

      This is basically because everything says Yes should likely win. Grassroots, visibility, personal experiences. Polls suggest it to from the collapse in the No lead to e.g. the SSAS where we have 41%(+10) for indy and 29% on top for all but. Trust in Holyrood vs Westminster, opinions on campagins..all +for Yes.

      All BT have left is the fact that, inexplicably even to them, straight Y/N still has them just ahead. One poll showing Yes just edging it and madness will ensue. Hey you remember 2011 huh? It was only at this point in time the SNP first just went ahead by a point or so.

      Yes is doing better than that, it’s already had a few statistical ties and has been ahead when voters are given a little excuse.

      This time only 50%+1 is needed, not a huge lead either.

      If BT were sure they were going to walk this, they’d not be visiting Wings. They’d be sitting by the fire quietly reading good book. That or maybe trying to get girlfriend. Even just a friend.

    275. Lesley-Anne says:

      Well it would be two year’s minimum fred. Check out when Sweden joined the Euro after joining the E.U. since 1995. 😛

      http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/countries/sweden_en.htm

    276. CameronB Brodie says:

      Stewart Mckenzie
      Set that aside for one minute, what do you think of these ‘ordinary’ voters?

    277. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “after the yes vote we will have the £ up until it is decided otherwise. post indy yes vote we will have a currency”

      Er….yeah, the Fiscal Commission’s recommendations are for independence i.e. after the 20 months we’d still be part of the UK following a yes vote.

      They recommend a currency union – either sterling or the euro – and rule out sterlingisation.

      Sterlingisation is the SNP’s plan B option (although they won’t tell us that because it has been rejected by their own Fiscal Commission).

    278. Paula Rose says:

      @ scottish_skier, you’ve just made an old punk very happy.

    279. Thepnr says:

      It is not coincidence that articles published on Wings since the issue of the wee blue book have attracted more than the normal quota of trolls.

      Their aim is to disrupt the thread and have you debating their agenda. Learn from today and just ignore them.

      We have a job to do and time is short, don’t be distracted.

    280. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Hey you remember 2011 huh? It was only at this point in time the SNP first just went ahead by a point or so.”

      Wrong I’m afraid. Labour and the SNP switched leads regularly in the two years prior to the 2011 election – the SNP led several times.

      6 weeks before the election they took a clear lead in the polls and it increased from then on until polling day.

      “This time only 50%+1 is needed”

      Er…you know that last time (i.e. 2011) the SNP only got 45%, right?

    281. Paula Rose says:

      Any truth in the plan to use Tunnocks teacakes as an alternative currency?

    282. Lesley-Anne says:

      Think I’m looking at bankruptcy then Paula, they never last more than 24 hours in our house. 😛

    283. HandandShrimp says:

      Quite apart from the fact that the claimed “many” experts seems to consist of just one expert, oddly the book fails to mention the fact that the SNP’s own Fiscal Commission strongly advised against sterlingisation – and indeed ruled it out completely as one of the two clear options they suggested should be used.

      Oh dear.

      Nice to see you could make it over here after all

      Here are two discussions that favour retaining sterling.

      http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/should-an-independent-scotland-keep-the-pound

      http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-banking/how-scotland-could-flourish-by-unilaterally-keeping-the-pound/

      Both right of centre think tanks too so that should please you.

      As for economists I was early on as an undergraduate that if you put three economists in a room within a day you will have four answers.

    284. Paula Rose says:

      I heard we were going to peg IrnBru to Kendal Mintcake.

    285. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Lives opposite me in Buckstone, Edin Pentlands”

      Seriously creepy.

    286. Lesley-Anne says:

      Nope, still doesn’t help me here Paula I’m afraid. Irn Bru lasts about as long as the Tunnocks Teacakes. 😛

    287. Croompenstein says:

      The Wee Blue Book is a wee mine of information condensed and aimed at the undecided and a wonderful resource for yes campaigners. The marvellous and plausible roadmap that was published by the Scottish Govt, Scotland’s Future, is a fine guideline for all who have a stake in a better, fairer Scotland

    288. M4rkyboy says:

      As far as i am aware on 19/9 we will still be denominated in £,through the negotiations we will be denominated in £ and upon Indy being declared we would be denominated in £.
      It’s after Indy that Scotland would have the power to decide which route to take.
      An important point to remember is that the No’s,who until now have been insincere and disingenuous in their demands for answers,will be on-board with the rest of the country trying to achieve the best result for Scotland.
      At present the No’s demands on currency should be treated for what it is-a ploy to trip up the Yes campaign.

    289. Jon D says:

      “Seriously creepy.”

      Purely observational on my part.

      Don’t worry Brigadoon – we’ll not be canvassing anytime soon. Or will we?

    290. scottish_skier says:

      Er…you know that last time (i.e. 2011) the SNP only got 45%, right?

      Pro-indy parties got >51%.

      But you knew that right?

      Can almost smell the sweat man.

      Chill. You’re ahead in the polls right?

      😉

    291. fred blogger says:

      Stewart Mckenzie
      so we’re getting somewhere.
      we will have a currency and it will be the £.
      as you correctly point out those are the snp’s preferred options, post yes it will be for the people of scotland to decide what happens next.
      only when we have independence via a yes vote sept 18th, can we decide currency issues, before that all questions of currency are hypothetical.
      this ref is NOT about the snp! but is for the people of scotland.

    292. IcySpark says:

      @laukat Here is the convo if anyone is interested:

      https://twitter.com/AndrewSNicoll/status/499998832730836993

    293. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “The Wee Blue Book is a wee mine of information condensed and aimed at the undecided”

      Why does it only promote the SNP’s currency preference and completely ignore the Scottish currency plan advocated by the Scottish Greens and many other independence supporters?

      Surely the narrative is to try to convince undecided voters that independence ISN’T all about Salmond and the SNP (even more so now Salmond has blatantly come out and claimed that a yes vote is a vote for him and his policies) – how does ONLY promoting the SNP’s currency policy help with that narrative?

    294. Dan huil says:

      No supporters: putting themselves first and to hell with everyone else.

    295. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “Pro-indy parties got >51%”

      No they didn’t.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/overview/html/scotland.stm

    296. Paula Rose says:

      Are there ordinary people who want more food banks?

    297. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      “putting themselves first and to hell with everyone else”

      You mean like Salmond putting himself and his own prestige and legacy first by pushing for a yes vote even if it means the sterlingisation option rejected by his own Fiscal Commission and the resultant economic damage that would cause?

    298. Paula Rose says:

      And are there ordinary people who want WMD?

    299. Paula Rose says:

      Sorry I’m on a rant.

    300. laukat says:

      @icyspark Thanks. I couldn’t remember how to link to twitter. Whats your reading of that conversation?

    301. Big Jock says:

      Anyway I hope everyone stays positive on here.We are winning this. I reckon the last 4 weeks will be when the game will change.The currency issue is losing its head of steam everyday.Banknof England will be pulling the strings in negotiations not any two bit chancellor with an agenda.

    302. Lesley-Anne says:

      Yes there is Paula, Johann Lamont, Henny Marra, Jackie Baillie, Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie. Oops, sorry I thought you said people you didn’t you said ORDINARY people didn’t you? 😛

    303. Black Douglas says:

      @Paula Rose

      Ordinary Britnats I suppose, they don’t want to lose their imagined prestige in the world.

    304. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      “We can say more confidently, however, that so-called sterlingisation – an option Alex Salmond dubs “quite attractive” – is the most probable, if still elusive “Plan B” for the Scottish Government. That would see Scotland continue to use the pound, albeit in an unofficial, informal fashion. The country would have no central bank and no lender of last resort. It is, however, an option the First Minister’s own fiscal commission deemed unattractive.

      A formal currency union or, alternatively, sterlingisation, might not on the face of it affect the lives of “ordinary hard-working Scots”. The pound in your pocket would remain the pound in your pocket. But it would most probably have an impact on the country’s financial services industry. Edinburgh, in particular, might have cause to be anxious about sterlingisation. The upside, from a nationalist perspective, is the possibility of reneging on past assumptions about sharing the UK’s debt and beginning independent life with no national debt.”

      The Scotsman http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independence-issues-financial-economy-currency-1-3506559

      “An independent Scotland could flourish either by using the pound sterling without the permission of the rUK (or by setting up a “ScotPound” pegged to sterling through a currency board, which would achieve a similar end). This ‘sterlingization’ would emulate a number of Latin American countries that use the US Dollar without an official agreement with the US government. Because Scottish banks would not have access to a currency-printing lender of last resort, they would have to make their own provisions for illiquidity, and would necessarily act more prudently.

      “Scotland actually had this system of ‘free banking’ during the 18th and 19th centuries, during which time its economy boomed relative to England’s and its banks were remarkably secure. And Panama, which uses the US Dollar in this way, has the seventh most stable financial system in the world.

      “Everyone says Mr Salmond needs a Plan B if the rUK does not agree to a currency union with Scotland. But unilateral adoption should be Plan A, making Scotland’s economy more stable and secure. The UK’s obstinacy would be Scotland’s opportunity.”

      The Adam Smith Institute http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-release-an-independent-scotland-should-keep-the-pound-without-ruks-permission/

      “Alistair Darling, the leader of the pro-union campaign Better Together previously called a currency union “logical” and “desirable” if Scotland were to vote for independence, however he would not be drawn on the comments by Salmond in last weeks debate on independence and has since argued that a currency union would lead to a political union and be bad for both Scotland and the UK.

      Salmond has been derided for not having an alternative “plan B” to a unified currency, but Scotland could still adopt the pound without approval from Britain.”

      City AM http://www.cityam.com/1407933432/scottish-independence-currency-contingency-plans-place-says-bank-england-governor-mark

      “Truth is usually the first casualty of political battles, as it is of war. I believe that Scotland and England are individually stronger for being part of the UK, but 25 years in currency markets tell me that the No campaign’s argument that Scotland cannot keep the pound is false.

      It would certainly be a limited version of independence, but there is nothing stopping an independent Scotland from declaring sterling sole legal tender and borrowing it on the financial markets to hold in reserve. However much it may appear to be like having your cake and eating it, neither action requires the permission of the rest of the UK.

      First, the list of countries that have adopted a currency issued by another state, outside formal agreement, officially or not, includes past monetary sinners like Russia in the 1920s, Mexico in the 1980s and many others. Today, it also includes about 30 small countries from Andorra to Panama and the Vatican that have officially chosen to do so. History and the present day teach us that currency substitution is possible. It should also be easier for Scotland than others, because it already uses sterling and its economy is tightly integrated into the rest of the UK economy.

      Second, the Bank of England cannot even deny sterling liquidity to any Scottish-focused bank prepared to put up the necessary collateral, without jeopardising sterling’s international liquidity and external value. Moreover, assuming Scotland continues to run a healthy external balance of payments, courtesy of 90 per cent of the UK’s oil and gas being in Scottish waters and other foreign currency earners like whisky and tourism, sterling liquidity will likely flow from the rest of the UK to Scotland. Scotland will be a net lender to England.”

      City AM http://www.cityam.com/article/1394565144/big-independence-lie-scotland-could-keep-pound

    305. IcySpark says:

      @laukat

      I’ve forwarded the story and twitter convo to Stu. This is a big story that the MSM are pushing.

      BoE don’t typically make statements like this, but could they have shot themselves in the foot?

      Perfect for Stu to get his teeth into 🙂

    306. scottish_skier says:

      To be honest if we only got 45% it would be a fucking disaster for the union. Annoying as hell sure, but just the next step.

      Support for the union is lowest in the younger generations with the oldest those still clinging on. Highest British natID is in those born in 1944; the post-war socialist ‘British’ society baby boomers. Thatcherism put paid to that idea – ‘There’s no such thing as [British] society’. Well there was, briefly, but from 1979 onwards London did it’s best to end that.

      Those coming of voting age right now – the devolution generation – are the highest ‘Scottish only’ of any generation; up to 72%. Solid Yes too.

      I’ve gone from an office off 50% Yes / 25% DK / 25% No to 100% Yes. The non-yes mainly < 30 yrs recent graduates. 'Hadn't thought about it. Maybe just more powers?' Man are they passionate when they start thinking about it and move to Yes. Out campaigning some of them now. Nice.

    307. Stewart Mckenzie says:

      SNP’s own Fiscal Commission:

      “there is the option for Scotland to adopt Sterling through an informal process of ‘sterlingisation’. While this option would retain some of the benefits of a formal monetary union there would also be some additional drawbacks. In this instance, the Scottish Government would have no input into governance of the monetary framework and only limited ability to provide liquidity to the financial sector – this would depend on the resources and reserves of the country. The amount of currency available would depend almost entirely on the strength of the Scottish Balance of Payments position. The two clear options for Scotland are therefore to seek to join a formal monetary union with Sterling or the Euro.”

      http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00414291.pdf

    308. Big Jock says:

      My office are still Salmond bashing!Agh the wonderful man!Don’t know how I hold my tongue with them sometimes!Must be the industry I work in spoon fed on the Metro and BBC!

    309. laukat says:

      @icyspark That was my thoughts. I also tweeted wings over scotland to alert him to it. If Nicoll runs this then it would in my opinion kill the unionist current union story

    310. heraldnomore says:

      There was me turned away for an hour or so, thinking that Brian Blessed is an arse.

      Then I come back and in comparison Blessed’s not so bad after all, but he’s still an arse, just as not as bad as the one I’ve been missing.

    311. Albert Herring says:

      Don’t know what the world’s coming to.

      You just cant get decent trolls these days.

    312. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      Rev Stu,
      have you got any of these muzzles left?

    313. No no no...Yes says:

      O/T The beeb haven’t wasted anytime getting next debate polls off and running:
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/breaking-have-bbc-decided-to-involve-no.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ScotGoesPop+(SCOT+goes+POP!)

      No surprise they are planning more traps for the FM..

    314. crisiscult says:

      Can anyone out there tell me if I’ve understood the currency situation correctly. If rUK won’t agree to currency union, Scotland is more or less going to have to refuse to take on much debt, if any, because to use sterling without using the Bank of England as a lender of last resort, it would need a +ve balance of payments in order to maintain its banking industry, which it couldn’t have (the balance of payments +ve I mean) if it started out with debt.

    315. BrianW says:

      Is this a Tory Entry for the Edinburgh Comedy Fringe. It’s comedy gold (not Perrier winning comedy though)

      This is hilarious. Seriously, it’s great seeing their claims being busted at every turn..

    316. handclapping says:

      @Albert
      Its like the herring 😉 they’ve been overfished

    317. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “the SNP’s own Fiscal Commission strongly advised against sterlingisation”

      Sigh. They did no such thing, and you know that full well because you’ve quoted what they said.

      You get one warning, and one only. This is it. Any more obvious trolling and you’re out. I’m really very busy indeed and I have no time for people aiming purely to disrupt with provocative lies and personal abuse.

    318. galamcennalath says:

      Now that Unionists have shown their true colours, it is even more important that Scotland gets a YES on the 18th. This, few here can deny.

      However, there is something else that YES will bring … the simple satisfying pleasure of sitting back and enjoying the reaction from that long list of NaeSayers, every one of them from Unionist politicians, media lap dogs, BritNat academics, et al.

    319. scottish_skier says:

      “Pro-indy parties got >51%”

      No they didn’t.

      You are missing a lot of parties there. You need to tally up / average for the regional too because if you wanted Green or Margo, or say Solidarity, that’s where you place your X as no option on the constituency FPTP.

      Have fun.

    320. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “They’re both full of lies”

      Seeya!

    321. heedtracker says:

      @ Stewart Mckenzie, I’m still surprised Stewie the Troll came calling with his Graun Scotland will crash and burn with Yes

      “Scotland’s manufacturing exports would soon become uncompetitive, because prices within Scotland would rise faster than in the UK. That would worsen if it chose to use sterling without a formal deal, with large parts of Scotland’s financial sector forced to move to London and investors withdrawing money from Scottish companies.”

      Since who has anyone ever had a wee dram of English whiskey? Westminster destroyed Scotish industry, pissed away our oil and now some demented unionist Prof says Our exports will be too expensive based on project fear with

      http://www.brodies.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Statistics-sheet.pdf

      As of Jan 2013, 84 thousand plus finance jobs in Scotland are going to sell up and move to London are they Prof? At what costs and London has housing etc for 3% of Scottish work force. They could sack them all and rehire in London I suppose. Such is teamGBlove for us up here.

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @Stewart Mckenzie says: 14 August, 2014 at 6:28 pm:

      “This is a wee bit creepy.”,

      More like it has become really stupid. Every one of their claims is now falling apart. The general public is getting to know just how stupid it has become. It is hysterical and panic stricken now.

    323. IcySpark says:

      @laukat

      If it’s proven that the BoE statement today is wrong as the evidence seems to suggest then it is huge. Alert readers get searching

    324. Lesley-Anne says:

      crisiscult says:

      Can anyone out there tell me if I’ve understood the currency situation correctly. If rUK won’t agree to currency union, Scotland is more or less going to have to refuse to take on much debt, if any, because to use sterling without using the Bank of England as a lender of last resort, it would need a +ve balance of payments in order to maintain its banking industry, which it couldn’t have (the balance of payments +ve I mean) if it started out with debt.

      crisiscult the bottom line on currency is that we, the people of Scotland WILL be using the pound AFTER independence. This leaves two options if I remember correctly a) currency union or b) NO currency union.

      With a currency union then an independent Scotland would take on its population share of the £1.4 Trillion Westminster owned debt.

      With NO currency Union the it is NO share of Westminster’s £1.4 Trillion debt and we start as a country DEBT FREE!

      I think that’s the basics crisiscult, no doubt one of the more financial astute wingers will be along directly to correct any wee slip up I’ve made. 😛

    325. Chic McGregor says:

      @Cearc

      “When you were jpging WBB did you manage to produce A5s that could be used?

      I think a few A5s would be very handy for some people with larger type.”

      No, I produced A6 size booklet which would be two pages on either side of an A5 which is then folded. Or, for practical purposes 4 pages on each side of an A4 which is then cut into two A5s which are then folded.

    326. IcySpark says:

      I have forwarded the quote from Mark Carney to Stu. The journalist Andrew Nicoll seems to back it up in his tweets.

      Were the BoE wrong to make todays statement, followed by savaging John Swinney in the MSM?

    327. crisiscult says:

      another linked question to that above about balance of payments, and banking sector, is if anyone knows how to explain to us simpletons how Jersey and Isle of Man, among others, use Sterling but have huge banking industries. How are those underwritten?

      I will be meeting some No voting friends tomorrow who I know are quite hung up on currency so trying to understand a bit more about it.

    328. laukat says:

      @Icyspark The bigger thing is that if Bank of England is willing to discuss currency union then it makes it difficult for the No Campaign to say they won’t.

      Would destroy the No case but it hinges on Andrew Nicoll publishing. He has in my opinion the biggest story of the indyref in his hands if he is willing to publish

    329. IcySpark says:

      @laukat

      Can you tweet Stu that I have sent the story with quotes from Mark Carney via Wings contact please?

    330. Macsenex says:

      Quite a hoot tonight out canvassing in Helensburgh. One voter insisted that there had to be a written agreement on Currency, EU and Nato before he would vote YES. He was not interested in the fact that the UK refused to negotiate before the Referendum.

      I suggested to him that many decisions and commitments are made without written agreements and cited Marriage as one where agreements are very rare.

      Just my luck , his response was: ” I have one”.

      Poor wife!

    331. Harry McAye says:

      I was a bit disappointed that Sally didn’t bring up Miliband’s quote to Ponsonby that no currency union would cost British businesses “100s of millions of pounds” but then Alex didn’t bring it up either last night with Big Bird. Why? Surely that comment must have been manna from heaven to Eck.

    332. IcySpark says:

      BoE Statement today:

      “The Bank notes the comments made by the Finance Secretary of the Scottish Government regarding technical discussions between officials of the Scottish Government and the Bank of England,” the BoE said in a statement.

      “To be clear, consistent with its statement in December 2012(1), the Bank of England has not entered into discussions with representatives of the Scottish Government about proposals for future monetary arrangements in Scotland.

      “As the Governor said yesterday, the design of any changes to UK monetary and financial arrangements would ultimately be a matter for negotiation between the Westminster and Scottish Parliaments. The Bank of England will deliver whatever remit it is given,” the note said.

      “The Bank’s position on the primary determinants of a successful currency union is set out in the Governor’s speech, delivered in January 2014 in Edinburgh and in his subsequent testimony to the Treasury Select Committee of the House of Commons.”

      Bank of England governor ‘welcomes’ currency talks

      From BBC post:

      The governor of the Bank of England has “welcomed” the chance to discuss the Scottish government’s plan to share the pound under independence.

      Mark Carney:
      “My predecessor did have some very basic technical discussions with Mr Salmond within the course of the last couple of years. I certainly welcome the opportunity to have those discussions.”
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25154758

    333. Big Jock says:

      Trident will determine the currency union.If RUK want to keep it they will have to agree currency union.Otherwise we will simply decommission it and they can come and take the scrap.I have heard that it can actually be decommissioned in less than 2 years.If instead they want time to find a new base then its up to Scotland to play ball or not.Personally I would go for scrap it and use Sterling outside agreement and NAE debt.

    334. Thepnr says:

      @crisiscult

      An Independent Scotland will have a Balance of Payments surplus not a deficit like rUK. For starters once the oil is in our control rUK will become a massive importer of this oil.

      Doesn’t matter whether they buy it or not as it will be traded internationally. We also export electricity to rUK never mind Whisky.

      Please do yourself a favour and read the following article.

      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scotlands-100-billion-of-exports-provide-the-foundation-for-a-wealthy-independent-country/

    335. IcySpark says:

      A spokesman for Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond, said: “Scottish government officials have already had technical discussions with their counterparts at the Bank of England to assist the Fiscal Commission with their work, including the publication of their report on a macroeconomic framework for an independent Scotland, which includes proposals for a shared sterling area.

      “The first minister met with the previous governor of the bank, Sir Mervyn King, before and after those technical discussions, and he looks forward to meeting the new governor in due course.”

    336. stuart says:

      I suspect this SM troll is part of a paid social media strategy by BT. The tactics he is using with all these posts looks familiar. Don’t feed him and hopefllu the Rev will delete him.

    337. Lesley-Anne says:

      I think you are wrong there BJ. Trident will not be involved in any of the currency discussions. Trident is, as far as I’m aware, off the table. Trident will be gone by 2020 provided SNP returned to power in 2016.

    338. crisiscult says:

      Thanks Thepnr. Will have a look at that.

      Still hoping someone can shed light on how Jersey etc operate with the pound considering their huge banking business.

    339. IcySpark says:

      Can someone please archive this page and repost before the BBC change it thanks.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25154758

    340. Lesley-Anne says:

      You mean like this icy? 😛

      https://archive.today/rXkTY

    341. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      Trident will determine the currency union.

      I disagree, trident and currency union are totally seperate, this may be a position that Unionist negotiators take but will get short shrift.

      Currency Union will be accepted by the rUK negotiators as the Fiscal commission makes clear. It is in their interests to do so.

    342. IcySpark says:

      Thank you very much Lesley-Anne. You’re a gem 🙂

    343. Lesley-Anne says:

      My pleasure Icy. 😉

    344. Liquid Lenny says:

      ok Lesley ann you beat me too it, now have to read it

      https://archive.today/rXkTY

      Putting it in to see if they used the same ref as yours

    345. Big Jock says:

      Hi Lesley I maybe didn’t explain my thinking properly.Trident is non negotiable in the fact that it will be going.However the timescale will be negotiable!In other words its something the RUK and the US want to keep.So this will be determined by how the negotians go.If RUK say no to currency SG then say well we are immediately scrapping Trident.If RUK say we will agree to currency and will you give us more time to get the English base ready.A reasonable SG will no doubt agree a longer deadline.Either way it goes but the timetable is not set in stone its just one of these that can be negotiated.

    346. Training Day says:

      STV are the new BBC. Cringeworthy segment with the daft Rhona and Rory Bremner on Scotland Tonight.

      Beyond puerile. North Koreans would scoff at this propaganda.

    347. laukat says:

      Also archived the twitter conversation here https://archive.today/DYxd7

    348. sausage fingered luddite says:

      Icyspark & Lesley -Anne cheers for the link.

    349. heedtracker says:

      @ Macsenex, I work with a very NO but he came back from his Spanish hols very Yes. Ref’s very much talked about obviously so I asked why the change and he’d been bettertogether canvassed and told, vote Yes and Scotland’s out of Europe but he wants really that to happen. Its a surprising switch but his wifes a NO still so emailed her WBB.

    350. Lesley-Anne says:

      At the end of the BJ the current SG has always said that in an independent Scotland Trident will be going. However they have qualified, if you like, this timscale by saying so long as it is safe to do so. The SG are not stupid they know that Trident will not be gone on day 1 of independence but it IS a central plank to Scottish independence.

      I’m still not sure you can link Trident to the currency negotiations the way you suggest BJ. I think you are still putting a link in place where there is no link. I think I understand what you are trying to say but you really have to take all ideas about currency union out of the picture completely.

      Whilst the Westminster parliament might try and negotiate a longer timescale before removal of Trident from Faslane that negotiation if it were to happen would be a totally independent set of negotiations with no other negotiations linked into it.

    351. Robert Peffers says:

      @Andy-B says: 14 August, 2014 at 7:08 pm:

      “… surely this comment is dangerous scaremongering, and it could lead to some sort of panic.”

      Actually, Andy, it is the result of the panic that has been quite evident among the Better Together for some time now.

      As evidence I offer you the logic that is obvious but is flying above heads in both the Naw & some Aye heads. When Salmond made the statement, “Scotland will use her own currency, the Pound Sterling, preferably in a currency union”, he bounced the ball right into the Westminster court. That statement is unequivocal and there is no room for the idiotic pleas of, “What is Plan B”?.

      The fact is that as they cannot prevent the use of the pound then the only ones who can make the choice of whether there is a CU or not a CU is Westminster. There was nether a question nor an option in the Salmond statement. The ball is now in Westminster’s court and it is long past time the media were made to face them with that choice and who better to do it that Joe & Josephine Public during TV and radio debate. If you get to ask a question ask them, “As Scots will use the pound and would prefer a CU then it is Westminster’s choice whether there is another plan than A, What is it”?

    352. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Lots of fun with Stewart Mckenzie here.
      The fact is that everybody in Scotland knows we can use sterling if we want so Better Together is basically motoring on a lie and Mr and Mrs Joe Public have already clocked this.

      Their only major concern is how much money they have, not what it is called or what colour it is.

      I share Irvine Welsh’s concern about who gets the biggest share of it whatever it is called.

      Meanwhile, as Better Together chases a dummy rabbit, YES campaigns quietly on important issues that matter to people.

    353. Andy says:

      “Sterlingization” is not a credible option. The real options are here http://niesr.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/dp415.pdf – warning though, this is written by real economists (rather than a blogger at the Adam Smith Institute with an History and Economics degree – that really needs to come out of the WBB as it is laughable).

      They strongly favour a new currency as the best protection against financial collapse, which has a far greater impact on welfare than trade effects of not using Sterling. As they point out in the report, when Ireland stopped pegging Sterling it had virtually no impact on trade.

    354. Krackerman says:

      Id agree with BJ – we don’t need to compromise on Trident – we already hold enough of the cards to do a deal.. Trident goes – end off. Sure they can negotiate to keep it a few more years – but it goes… I’m not so hot on a long term CU anyway – better to get the transition over with and find new markets for our oil and goods – the rUK is sinking fast – best we detach before they drag us down…

    355. Andy says:

      @Thepnr – what is the value of rUk’s exports to Scotland? Those are not included in rUK’s balance of payments at the moment.

    356. Patrician says:

      @Stuart, he was probably coming to the end of his shift anyway. He will be back anyway, different name, same shit.

    357. Big Jock says:

      Lesley its not just the currency the Trident is a bargaining chip for the negotions in terms of a card the SG have in their pack for the way negotiations go.This is a powerful chip.We know the currency is a red herring but in the unlikely situation where the RUK played hardball.Then its there to remind them of who holds the power over the timetable.In pragmatic negotiations everything has a purpose.Its indirectly linked to currency as one asset of many that need to be agreed.I am trying to say that the SG will hold the Ace card in the event of any funny business.

    358. Chic McGregor says:

      Sorry Cearc that wasn’t very helpful

      For A5 you need two pages on either side of an A4.

      the page number progression is

      ————-Side A——–Side B—–
      Sheet 1 L p68 – R p1 — L p2 – R p67
      Sheet 2 L p66 – R p3 — l p4 – R p65
      Sheet 3 L p64 – R p5 — L p6 – R p63

      Same progression down to:-

      Sheet 17 L p36 – R p33 — L p35 – R p34

      Which is the middle page.

      Finally:

      Sheet 18 side A – L Back Cover, R Front Cover
      Sheet 18 side B – L inside Back Cover, R inside Front Cover

      Odd page numbers are always on the right as you look at a sheet.

      But from what I hear it will be surprising if A5 booklet size is not configurable from one of the pdfs using your printer’s documents functionality.

      I’m certainly going to give the A6 size booklet another try using that, although what I’m getting now off the jpegs is good, before I shrunk the res, it was ‘smudgy’. (That’s right, I said ‘shrunk’ the res, go figure). That could happen for A5 size??

      So I’d reccomend exploring the printing options first before jpegging.

    359. Thepnr says:

      Folk so “Stewart McKenzie” has been booted for overstepping the mark. No big deal for them to reappear almost instantly with a new identity.

      Totally ignoring them makes them ineffective and we can just laugh at their pathetic efforts which mirror all the pathetic efforts of BT to date.

      Do not engage. Their is no better way to piss them off.

    360. Lesley-Anne says:

      I think on the idea of holding Aces BJ we can agree that the SG is holding all the aces in the pack. 😛

    361. Chic McGregor says:

      P.S. If you decide you need to try the jpeg captures I’ll stick up on dropbox for you.

    362. Big Jock says:

      Yes Lesley oil revenues going into BOE balance of payments.I am sure Carney would love to lose them!

    363. Lesley-Anne says:

      Yep oil revenues, £4 Billion in BoE valuts and so it goes on . 😛

    364. HandandShrimp says:

      Andy

      However the NIESR report was funded by Vince Cable’s BIS department

      You pays your money (literally) and takes your choice. A currency union, a pegged currency like the Irish punt or new currency will all work and all have their strengths and weaknesses just as staying in the Union and sticking with the pound has strengths and weaknesses. Most of us with grey hair have that grey hair from the days our mortgages were at 10% and more.

    365. cearc says:

      Chic,

      Thanks a lot for that.

      No I couldn’t resize the pdf. in booklet format but as you have so usefully listed the print order I may be able to in a document format.

      The prints of A6 booklet on A4 paper look rather scrappy and cutting the paper by hand is rather fiddly. Probably the printers version is much more readable at that size but a large print edition would be good for a lot of people.

      I didn’t want to ask Stu for one as he is so busy.

      There is so little time with the postal votes going out soon.

    366. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      Krackerman & BJ
      Trident could be disabled within months and then stored until a time the rUK is in a position to “safely” re-commission the warheads once they set up in a location as far way from London as possible – e.g. Wales, Cornwal or Cumbria – the old disposable Celtic bits.

      That will force the decision whether rUK needs or can really afford a nuclear deterrent as Trident is fundamentally obsolete.

      Scotland most certainly does not need it and can get rid of it or disable it very quickly.

      There is of course the remote possibility that their may be a nuclear war while the warheads are disabled and rUK could be at serious risk. You know how they like to worry about everything?

      Somehow, I think they may actually be safer!
      We certainly will be.

    367. Robert Peffers says:

      @geeo says: 14 August, 2014 at 8:16 pm:

      “Got a reply from mr mundell,
      He cannot answer my query as he is not my MP.”

      Oh! What A chance to say, “But Mr Mundell, there are no other Tory MPs in Scotland for me to ask – should I ask a Panda”?

    368. Lesley-Anne says:

      I think the panda’s are otherwise engaged at the moment Robert. 😛

    369. balaaargh says:

      Slightly rubbing it in here but am spending this week in the Algarve recharging my batteries for the last few weeks of campaigning.

      Anyway, one of the few things I’ve had the patience to read about on a small screen was Henry McLeish’s comments. I grew up in Glenrothes and if that man turns around and votes yes after everything he has said and done then Hell really has frozen over!

    370. IcySpark says:

      BoE argument over its statement now hits the BBC:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28787839

    371. FlimFlamMan says:

      @ crisiscult

      Still hoping someone can shed light on how Jersey etc operate with the pound considering their huge banking business.

      The key is that they run an external surplus, mostly financial services, plus tourism and agriculture. That surplus allows them to acquire, and use, ‘foreign’ currency, meaning a currency they don’t themselves issue.

    372. geeo says:

      @Robert Peffers.
      Brilliant !
      Cannot believe i never even tried a smart comeback, although i have referred lesley anne onto the job !

    373. donald anderson says:

      Chic MacGregor
      … For A5 you need two pages on either side of an A4.

      the page number progression is

      ————-Side A——–Side B—–
      Sheet 1 L p68 – R p1 — L p2 – R p67
      Sheet 2 L p66 – R p3 — l p4 – R p65
      Sheet 3 L p64 – R p5 — L p6 – R p63 …

      Can you recommend a booker type programme that allows you to pour the text into the pages automatically? Doing it manually can be a nightmare. I used to use Pagemaker 7. OK if you can use PGF for the printer’s.

    374. McTim says:

      I don’t get why they are so keen on maintaining Trident when at least some in their ranks (Michael Portillo for example) went on record as saying that Trident is not sustainable. It’s already been established that nuclear missiles are not a deterrent for terrorists, especially not when the Govt hosting the weapons can’t even launch them on their own accord because Trident runs on the American GPS (facepalm). But I suppose it’s the same logic that compels them to build a new aircraft carrier without having the planes to use it for right away.

    375. Fiona says:

      Biggus Dickus is a complete explanation, McTim 🙂

    376. geeo says:

      As Fiona says, “look at the size of this weapon, pity we cannot get it to fire”!

      I have said it for a while, the plan imo was to hold on to Trident until its natural death then open up the west coast waters for oil and gas production.

      This is why independence really panics them.

      This is why the mantra is that this vote is once and for all, never to be heard of again.

      This is why i think that Holyrood is a lame duck after the slashing of budgets for Scotland after a no vote, to ensure we never ‘rise again’.

    377. McTim says:

      I thought Sally Magnusson did an okay job interviewing Flipper yesterday (finally got round to watching it). The man just keeps giving himself more rope to hang himself with. So a currency union is a second-best option if Scotland is independent but as part of the Union it’s all fine and dandy? And using a new currency is “rotten”? Er, Flipper, it’s not “rotten” if the new currency is backed up by an objectively very strong economy and I’d much rather have us decide our interest rates ourselves than the Bank of England. I’d also like someone, either Eck or a Yes supporter in the audience, to point out to Darling in the next debate that since he is only a backbencher now and with no part to play in the negotiations, he has undermined the past debate and is undermining the future debates by acting as a proxy for David Cameron. I’d tell him to bugger off and get that coward in there to debate with the FM. Would be good if Eck brings up the West Coast’s potential for oil and gas as one of the reasons Westminster wants Trident to stay put, other than trying to save face and the costs of relocating the missiles.

    378. yerkitbreeks says:

      Hope Rachel’s business practices are not as sharp as husband Billy’s.

    379. superjaxx says:

      If you have a vote and are voting Yes, sign up to this facebook page to show your solidarity. I’ve watched membership more than double from just 6,000 to almost 13,000 in just a few days. Wouldn’t it be amazing if we got like 1,000,000 people saying they were going to vote yes? May help to sway undecideds if the see the support yes has!

      https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/events/496687853766663?ref=m_notif&notif_t=event_mall_reply

    380. Colin says:

      One of the dirty tricks employed by our current underhand westminster government is the use of paid trolls on forums like this and social media sites.
      You need look no further than the guardians site where there are more trolls than real commenters.

      These trolls are paid to take the subject away from what is being discussed on to something else less worthy, like this thread on the duplicity of the tories and the no thanks mob, and their attempts to hijack it away on to other issues.
      Their reasoning for employing this tactic is sound, if you are discussing what they want then you are not discussing the real issues.

      My advice, for what it is worth, is to just ignore the trolls, do not answer them and do not be deflected from the real subject by them.
      They will go away when they see that their tactics are not working.
      The proof of Westminster government paid trolls is in the documents that Mr Snowden leaked and is only a google away 😉

    381. McTim says:

      The Grauniad’s Indy ref coverage is one of the most disappointing developments in this debate. After the last brainfarts from Blair apologist Martin Kettle and Martin White, I decided I had enough and removed the Grauniad from my bookmarks. Craig Murray’s writing opened my eyes to how shifty the rest of their coverage is too.

    382. Mat says:

      @Billy … “They KEEP doing this

      Yep, they do. This morning’s Better Together concerned voice is Secretary of Edinburgh Labour Students.

      The first voice in their ‘A message from our volunteers’ video from yesterday …

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OvaV4tIWQE&list=UUKTXq91LTofxlv98ZS8TfbQ

      … is Chair of Scottish Young Labour. The second person – could he be a pet troll of this parish, I wonder?

      Petty, perhaps, but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone on this page …

      http://www.youtube.com/user/BetterTogetherUK

      … who isn’t a party activist in some way. Grassroots they ain’t.

    383. Colin says:

      @ McTim says:
      15 August, 2014 at 10:08 am

      “The Grauniad’s Indy ref coverage is one of the most disappointing developments in this debate”

      I think the trolls like it because it is free and regardless of what they say the guardian lets them get away with it.
      I don’t go there anymore, I’ve been banned for troll bating, and telling mr carrell he was a hack better suited to the mail. 😉

    384. McTim says:

      The Grauniad has gotten so bad that even allowing guest writers like Ruth Wishart or Lesley Riddoch in doesn’t begin to address the serious imbalance in the Grauniad’s reporting of Scottish affairs. Ultimately the blame has to lie with the editor, Alan Rusbridger, because he decides what gets printed (including garbage that was originally printed in the Daily Heil of all places). I quite liked Craig Murray calling Rusbridger as Blair’s catamite, all the more so because Rusbridger got very upset at that description!

    385. Johnney come lately says:

      Desperation humiliation and panic is the only thing left for the unionists and Westminster with regards to the subject of a CU.
      They have quite simply overplayed their hand out of sheer desperation and are having a final CU fling hoping to avoid the inevitable.
      The inevitable is that Westminster at a point before the referendum will be forced to make a statement of intent in order to calm market jitters and reassure investors.
      The unionist camp played the high risk gamble that with the help of the MSM the SG would crumble and reveal a plan B, which they could then savage. This has not happened and the closer the referendum draws nearer, the more edgy and nervous investors will become, seeking clarification of some sort. Stating vaguely “that we have contingency plans” is simply not going to cut it.
      My prediction. Watch out for a humiliating climbdown by Westminster in the coming weeks over the issue.

    386. McTim says:

      They’re probably banking on Carney’s statement being reassurance enough for the markets until after the vote’s been cast. If it is a huge majority for Yes, Gideon’s position may be in peril as well as David Cameron’s (clearly, Boris is hedging his bets on Cameron getting kicked out Thatcher-style) because Gideon (reluctantly apparently) agreed to Flipper’s CU bluff strategy so he’s going to have to look over his shoulder too if No loses badly.

    387. fred blogger says:

      many will have noticed darlings (14 8 14) continued use of scare tactics where he turned financial concerns into voter concerns to create voter uncertainty. “with 2 weeks to go, before postal votes arrive”, why is that his concern?

    388. Rory Borealis says:

      Our Models

      Billy Hamilton

      Billy owns the Buccleuch Arms Hotel in St Boswells and enjoys all outdoor country sports when he is not managing his hotel.

    389. I get bemused or even amused by the “Johann Lamont’s” real world and what other world she means! then we have this constant sorry tale about the best of both worlds,I only know this one world that I am on,so could any of the no voters please let me in on the secret other worlds that you seem to know about.

    390. Ken500 says:

      Landowners use their political power and privilege to support NO. One landowner put up 200 NO signs.

    391. Ken500 says:

      Landowners prevent progress and infrastructure. One funded a campaign against infrastructure and roads, because they did not want the road passing their estate. The Landowners use environmental issues as an excuse, wasting £Millions of public money. An abuse of privilege and power against the public interest.

    392. Ken500 says:

      Johanna’s fantasy world consists of ‘One Direction’ giving support while she is the main attraction giving the ‘Speech’. Delusional.

      Nightmare

    393. Ken500 says:

      The Burnett’s main landowners in the NE. Many business/enterprise interests.

    394. Ken500 says:

      Business/enterprises can operate at a loss but be tax deductible.

      The NO campaign at a loss.

    395. Ken500 says:

      In Thailland the (ordinary?) Donald family from Aberdeen were used to endorse the advantages of owning a holiday Villa. Six months winter, leasing summer. Win, win = loads of money. The one fact left out was they are multi-millionaires.

    396. rob young says:

      http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-tory-leaflet-dishonest-1-3510966 I see a newspaper is now printing stuff from you and not calling you an evil cybernat, that can only be a good thing. saw it on facebook and posted it to my page.

    397. Sandra Wilson says:

      Rory who? And his views on Scottish independence? Really? Someone seems to have mistaken me for a Scot who gives a ****. Ah well if Rory thinks it’s a bad thing we’ll better vote naw then. Aye right!

    398. farrochie says:

      Alexander Burnett, prospective candidate for Deeside & Kincardineshire gets the exact same questions from people of Sauchen, Banchory, Stonehaven etc. And he gives the EXACT same answers.

      I think teacher will notice. #Cheatin.

    399. P.R.D. says:

      Strange that the accepted wisdom is that conservatives or right of centre voters are god given Unionists.

    400. P.R.D. says:

      Apparently even BT can not find a credible example of those ordinary right of centre NO voters.

    401. Karmanaut says:

      The gentleman depicted in the top leaflet, Councillor Keith Cockburn, is the managing director of a company that prints colour leaflets.

      I wonder if we could find out which company got the contract to print all these colour leaflets?

    402. highseastim says:

      Alexander Burnett must be an avid P&J reader as it’s had a love in wi’ the tories for as long as I can remember!!

    403. Terry G says:

      I asked mr Burnett, Mr Blundell and Mr Lamont to explain the similarities in their leaflets and if they were directly attributed to the people they claimed make them. Blundell hasnt bothered to respond and the other two dont say yes and dont say no although Burnett tries to explain it away as economy of scale ( what ever that is ).

    404. Casper1066 says:

      wow, do these people not realise that Wee Scotland has the internet. We don’t communicate with fire…that we have managed to work out something new called the “wheel”.

    405. Alwi says:

      I think the farmers (and fishermen, and the rest) will come round once May sells them down the river during Brexit negotiations.

    406. Wee Alex says:

      I had a Labour canvasser at the door on Saturday.

      Asked her about the bin collection being late this week, about poor state of our road and dog poo.

      All she wanted to talk about was the 2nd referendum.

      Now by all means have it on your leaflet but come on, you must have some views on dog sh*t.

      I said I was a dont know and she went away happy.

    407. Wee Alex says:

      I had a Labour canvasser at the door on Saturday.

      Asked her about the bin collection being late this week, about poor state of our road and dog poo.

      All she wanted to talk about was the 2nd referendum.

      Now by all means have it on your leaflet but come on, you must have some views on dog mess.

      I said I was a dont know and she went away happy.

    408. defo says:

      It’s what they’re good at.

      “Putting family first” thought our young hero Oliver, as he giggled to himself.
      Simple, anodyne and utterly meaningless.Just perfect. On so, so many levels. And think of the savings.
      A little cut’n’paste, like the intern showed him last week, and Bobs your auntie.
      Quite possibly literally, in todays dynamic Tory party.

      And won’t papa be pleased at his wizard plan for the locals literature, pondered Fluffy jr.
      That’ll show him for trying to stop me standing, but hey I was on the list anyhoo so…
      Ruth gave him an especially angry glare on my behalf, and like the blouse he really is, he caved.
      Maybe even get noticed by the big boys down south now, he mused.

      100% of Scottish Tory MPs have offspring in Holyrood. 🙁

    409. defo says:

      Meanwhile, yer auld auntie reports…

      “In a letter to Prime Minister Theresa May, Mike Padgham the Chair of the UK Homecare Association said: “My biggest fear is that we will soon run out of capacity to provide care to those who cannot fund themselves.
      “I agree wholeheartedly with Age UK’s warning that the social care system will begin to collapse this year, but I would go further and say that the system has already begun to collapse.”

      Oooft !

      Brexit will fix it, in some as yet unspecified mystical way.
      And if not, Cruella can always try tapping her (genuine) kitten heels together three times…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39507859

    410. donald anderson says:

      Putting family first. Like getting yer son a joab in Parliament when Tory seats in Scotland are like gold and then promoting their nothingness through the willing media.



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