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When is a pot not a pot?

Posted on August 14, 2014 by

This is a “Better Together” graphic about pensions.

btpp1

We’d like you to note what it says carefully. There’ll be a quiz in a minute.

Here’s another one. Click for the source page.

btpp2

So how many falsehoods did you spot, readers?

“60 million people pay into the same pension pot”

Really? 60 million of the UK’s 64 million people pay tax? Seems a bit dubious, but we suppose that six-year-old girls buying Fruit Pastilles are technically paying VAT, so we’ll let that one slide pending a bit of stat-checking.

“We all receive the same state pension”

Well, no we don’t. That’s an easy one:

“You need 30 qualifying years of National Insurance contributions or credits to get the full basic State Pension. This means for 30 years at least 1 of the following applied to you:

If you have fewer than 30 years, your basic State Pension will be less than £113.10 per week but you might be able to top up by paying voluntary National Insurance contributions.”

But let’s look at the words in the biggest print. “Pension pot”?

“The state pension, unlike private pensions, is not – there isn’t a fund there, it’s paid for by today’s taxpayers. So the ability to get your pension, and how much the pension is or how much any increase is, depends on the ability of the government of the day – and if it was independent, the independent Scotland – to pay that.”

Can you run that past us again, Alistair, just to be sure?

“It does come as a surprise to a lot of people to realise, although they pay their National Insurance contributions, there has never, since National Insurance was set up, ever been a fund like a pension company’s fund out of which you get your pension.”

Well, it’ll certainly come as a surprise if they’ve been reading your website, yes.

So of the three core statements about pensions made by “Better Together”, one of them is at best stretching the truth to breaking point (and more likely just plain wrong) and the other two are unequivocally, unambiguously, flat-out lies. There is NO pension pot, and we are NOT all “guaranteed the same state pension”.

Those aren’t our partisan assertions, but those of the UK government and of Alistair Darling himself, standing up live on TV before the entire nation and telling everyone that his own campaign’s claims are a load of nonsense. A reasonable viewer might find themselves wondering what else their campaign isn’t telling the truth about.

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    187 to “When is a pot not a pot?”

    1. Votadini Jeannie says:

      Is he not also wrong in saying that an independent Scotland would need the ability to pay its pensions from the tax payers of the day. As Westminster is guaranteeing the pensions of those who have already paid into the UK Treasury, Scotland will surely start day one of independence with no pensions to pay out. Sure, it will build over time, but isn’t the whole pension thing another red herring, like the currency question? Or am I just dumb?

    2. Schiehallion! Schiehallion! says:

      Is he more likely to stop saying Skawtlund with a Yes or with a No? I’d give up my pension if I didn’t have to hear him spread another word.

    3. Where is this pot hidden?

    4. Craig says:

      People will still buy into this crap and still state it as a reason for voting no.

    5. Ian Brotherhood says:

      At what point does a pot become a pan?

      At what point does a thick soup become a stew?

      At what point does Alistair Darling become credible?

      ‘It’s all just so complicated and it doesn’t make any sense!’ (A. Darling)

    6. Lesley-Anne says:

      AS I understand the pension thingy, on day 1 of independence everyone who is currently receiving their pension from Westminster will continue to receive that pension in the same way that everyone moving to Spain, Australia, Canada etc will still receive their pensions.

      The question, as I understand it is for those still in work etc. What happens to their pension when they ultimately retire. If my understanding is correct then they would be entitled to the proportion of UK pension that they have paid into up to the point of independence. After independence they would start paying into a Scottish pension scheme and this would make up the apparent shortfall from the now rUK pension.

      No doubt I’m all over the place here and I stand ready to get my knuckles rapped for being so stupid. 😉

    7. heedtracker says:

      “British state pension at a maximum £110.15 a week is the most miserable in Europe. Compared to average income, even Hungary and Slovenia better the pension benefits 12.3m British pensioners receive, according to a new OECD report.” Thats from aolnews last November, its three quid higher now.

    8. Big Red says:

      Darling said that the payment of pensions was determined by the number of workers in a country and so with less people working in Scotland, there would be less people to contribute taxes and so pensions would be at risk. For anyone who has paid those 30 years of NI to the UK, they will get their pension paid by the Uk – irrespective of where they live.

    9. Clootie says:

      We have no pensioners on day one. If you are Polish and returned home after paying into the Westminster coffers then they are liable for your pension. If you retire to France from Falmouth or Falkirk you get your pension from the stamps you purchased through working in the UK.

      I suppose they could agree to return all of those stamp payments to Edinburgh in a deal in which Holyrood takes over but they can’t have it both ways.

      Another lie by BT – will they stop all those pension payments to those Scots already retired to England, France, Spain, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa etc etc.

      Already retired for 10 years or retiring this week – they have the same rights.

    10. TJenny says:

      cynicalHighlander – ‘Where is this pot hidden?’ At the end of the red, white and blue rainbow. 🙂

    11. Patrician says:

      I was really surprised when Mr Darling made that statement during the debate, it undermines one of their strongest scare stories. I can only think it is because the next step is to say that the UK government can’t be expected to pay pensioners in Scotland from the taxes of workers in the rUK. Of course this will only just be another scare story but as long as it raises the fear it will do for them.

    12. Clootie says:

      If you have a mix of Westminster and Holyrood stamps it will be in proportion e.g 10 + 20 or 15 + 15 etc.

      I will wager that the Holyrood portion gets higher, faster.

    13. IcySpark says:

      O/T

      Sir Tam Dalyell, a Labour MP for 43 years has called for the Scottish Parliament to be scrapped. “The only solution to the West Lothian question is the ending of the Scottish Parliament”

      http://en.ria.ru/world/20140814/192011923/Veteran-UK-Politician-Calls-for-Scottish-Parliament-to-Be.html

    14. Tam Jardine says:

      Isn’t there an NI threshold below which we pay nothing? So someone on less than 8k pays 0%? So surely those on part time or low incomes, students, children, the elderly, prisoners serving long sentences, the unemployed, the terminally ill or disabled (those who cannot work)… all don’t pay national insurance which pays for the spend on pensions.

      So far fewer than 60 million then. I suppose you could argue that the specific fund taxed to pay for pensions and welfare is actually used for defence spending and the funds derived from indirect taxation, vat etc was the tax being spent on pensions, but that seems a little disingenuous as we are told specifically this is the reason for national insurance contributions.

      That would be like saying I personally pay part of Alistair Darling’s salary with my entire tax contribution and my wife buys a certain number of SA80 rounds with her contribution: it could technically be argued but it is not a helpful way of viewing the UK incomes and expenditures.

      You are making this look too easy Stu – i challenge you to find a paragraph in any BT literature where they don’t tell a single lie. Good luck with that.

    15. Colin says:

      There are 36,600,000 working age adults in the UK.

    16. Lesley-Anne says:

      Colin says:

      There are 36,600,000 working age adults in the UK.

      Looks like BT have been using wee Danny Alexander’s calculator again. 😛

    17. Famous15 says:

      As was explained to me ,it is a notional pot,so up to 2016 the UK pays pensioners existing at that time until they die and from that date negotiations will have agreed the % contribution of the two nations Sliding scales that provide fairness based on history of payment.The recipient will see no difference.With occupational and private pensions there will be no detriment since these are contractual or quasi contractual .The DWP have confirmed this and Wings has given the references.

      After 2016 I would expect the iScottish Government to enhance pensions on par with equally wealthy nations.

    18. north chiel says:

      I thought that the “Con” dems had increased the qualifying years contributions for the state basic pension from 30 to 35 years? Please correct me if wrong.Thus the basic state pension will be paid in full to even less people,who would only receive a pro rata amount on qualifying years under this threshold.Just another way of conning people out of their entitlement by raising this threshold and simultaneously increasing the state pension age.Any way for these thieves in the London treasury to continually devise means of reducing payouts on pensions.Of course the biggest con lately was increasing the qualifying age from 60 to 65 for women pensioners , thus cheating females in their late fifties (who had contributed for the vast majority of their working life )out of circa £30000 each ,What a shower of cretins.

    19. Colin says:

      Sorry, there are just over 2,000,000 unemployed in the UK. Plus those on incapacity allowance etc.

    20. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26243641
      Gordon Brown’s pants on fire here too eg.

      Brown says

      “You are expecting, quite rightly, that you will get a British pension – but if there is independence, the British pension stops, the national insurance fund that you’re paying into is broken up.”

      But UK.gov Pension Minister stated

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/pension-for-scots-guaranteed-after-yes-vote.24160772

      Mr Webb told MPs: “Citizenship is irrelevant. It is what you have put into the UK National Insurance system prior to separation. Answer 35 years, that builds up to a continued UK pension under continuing UK rules. They are entitled to that money.

      Why would Brown lie about such a big issue. Are Crash and the Flipper trying to out lie each other?

    21. geeo says:

      Looking at all the mistakes and outright nonsense on important numbers and figures by the unionists, it becomes easier to see how the uk has 1.5 trillion debt and rising every day.

    22. cearc says:

      TJenny beat me to it!

      I had the exact same thought when I read your comment CA.

    23. TJenny says:

      cearc – great minds and all that. 🙂
      (ps – I too have now got a hat, with lots of wee pro-indy badges on it.)

    24. Devereux says:

      @IcySpark says: ‘Sir Tam Dalyell, a Labour MP for 43 years has called for the Scottish Parliament to be scrapped.’
      Sir Tam has been saying this for some time. He is one of the few from the other side who has come out of all of this with a modicum of dignity. I can see it from his point of view. The very existence of the Parliament set the rest of these islands on a path of change that is now irreversible. Any small powers it gets it moves further down the social democratic route and away from Westminster. Of course, his desire for it to just disappear is a pipe dream. The union is over – it just doesn’t know it yet. I remember having the same discussion with Prof David Walker, the man behind the textbooks that every student of a certain era who studied law at Glasgow will remember. He was adamant that Scotland and England ceased to exist in 1707. That there was no mechanism in law to overturn the Royal charter/decree (correct me if I am remembering this wrong). I used to argue that law is fine until the people decide otherwise. I received beautifully handwritten treatises trying to persuade me otherwise until frailty intervened and he passed away. A lovely man. Just wrong about independence 🙂

    25. crazycat says:

      It’s far, far, fewer than 60 million; in the year 2011/12, 28.6 million people were making National Insurance contributions (https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/national-insurance-contributions-statistics).

      These seem to be the latest statistics; the next set were due on 30 April 2014, but release has been delayed “due to data issues”.

      So not even 50% of the number claimed – that’s a pretty big difference. Perhaps they are including those who have made contributions in the past, but have stopped because they have become pensioners! Even then it can’t be 60 million – there seem to be about 12 million people of pension age or older, which takes the total to about 40 million.

    26. cearc says:

      TJenny,

      Great news about the hat!

    27. fred blogger says:

      north chiel
      below 10 yrs contributions get 0.
      after april 2016 it goes up to 35yrs contributions.
      the european social charter states that uk benefits and pensions are 40% to low.
      also see recent wings pensioner jackpot post.

    28. Ian Mackay says:

      Off topic I know but, if I may, a gentle plug for this Saturday’s 3pm Galilean Society talk at Glasgow’s Caesar!ny Centre:
      Research and Innovation in an Independent Scotland
      by Dr. Stephen Watson
      Founder of Academics For Yes
      http://www.galileosoc.co.uk/talks/2014/aug.htm

      This Saturday’s talk looks at the scientific and research community in Scotland’s universities and asks how they will be affected by independence. Funding is a key issue and this talk will reveal new research that changes the whole political and funding landscape for academic research…

    29. TD says:

      The crazy thing about NI is that the contributions generate entitlement (to a future pension and also benefits for unemployment) but the cash generated just goes into the general pot (if I can use that technical term) of government revenue. So all the time we are creating a future liability and just keeping our fingers crossed that in future there will be enough revenue to cover the liability. It’s a pretty irresponsible way to organise things, but it is what has been done.

      Given that the money to pay the liability comes from current tax and NI payers, and given also that about 10% of them will be in the soon to be created independent Scotland, it seems inconceivable to me that rUK will agree to paying the liabilities without getting the revenue to cover it. So the notion that Scotland will start with no pension liability which only gradually increases over time is a nice idea, but I think it unlikely that it will actually happen.

      During the negotiations following Sep 18, a deal will be done. But like the debt, we have a strong hand. Legally, if rUK is to be regarded as the continuing state, then they need to pay Scottish pensioners. It will be up to the Scottish negotiating team to extract the highest possible price for it, but I am sure that Scotland will end up paying its own pensioners out of current taxation and NI, just as the UK does.

    30. crazycat says:

      @ north chiel

      I also thought there had been an increase in the qualifying period to 35 years; I took early retirement with 31 years of contributions and was told I had enough for a full state pension. I then received a letter to advise me that this had changed; I still haven’t reached retirement age, which is receding into the future all the time, and I have no longer accrued enough credits.

      I have just checked this letter – the increase will only take effect in 2017, by which time Universal Credit (which changes everything again) is supposed to be up and running, though I will believe that when I see it.

      All of this means that the statements about what happens “right now” are irrelevant, and would be so even if they were correct.

    31. Robert Peffers says:

      Eh! So correct me if I’m wrong but if there were just one person Y paying in to the scheme then that one person would get X as a pension so that’s: –

      Y, in and X, out.

      If it were 10 people that becomes : –
      10, Y in and 10, X out.

      and if its 1,000,000 it will be 1,000,000 out.

      What the hell difference does it make what the numbers are?

      Except of course that as Scots have a lower lifespan the dead Scots are subsidising the English – Sheesh!
      ;-))

    32. tony Jensen says:

      You should have been more forceful with the first point because AD states later that today’s pensions are paid for by those in work. Therefore, he really means those paying income tax and nics. The working population is 31.5m in UK. Even the economically inactive (pensioners and students) pay tax but including them is stretching a point.

    33. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 14 August, 2014 at 11:43 pm:

      Brown says : -““You are expecting, quite rightly, that you will get a British pension”.

      So Gordon thinks that there is a British Pension?
      Does it pay the Republic of Ireland pensions? What of the Isle of Man pensions, Jersey, Guernsey?

      When will these numpties realise that the UK is not all Britain?

    34. Nana Smith says:

      When is a pot not a pot.

      When it’s full of holes and leaking like a sieve.

      All better together’s pot is full of holes and their lies are dribbling oot.

    35. sausage fingered luddite says:

      When is a pot not a pot?
      When you don’t have one to piss in, i.e. when you’re national debt is £1.3 trillion.

    36. Indy_Scot says:

      I’m beginning to think, maybe they are not lying, maybe they’re just thick as shit.

    37. David Stevenson says:

      A pot is not a pot when it is a crock….

      They really don’t give a damn about facts.

      Labour: toxic liars, and Brown is the worst of the lot.

    38. TJenny says:

      There is already a Scottish Public Pension Agency which administers Scottish NHS staff and GPs, Teachers, Fire Services, Ambulance Service, and last but not least, MSPs pensions.

      Apart from the MSPs, these pension schemes all have individual pots of contributions from which these pensions are paid. As do Local Authorities. Anyone having paid into these pots will be entitled to their pro rata payts from WM and then the money paid to Scotland will be used for the balance.

      The state pension is a ponzi scheme as there is no pot of money and pensions are paid on demand from all current collected taxation.

      When Scotland becomes independent anyone having paid NI for the required number of years will be paid their state pension from WM. To not honour these payments would incur the wrath of money regulators, IMF, and markets.

      When Scotland becomes independent, it will therefore have a number of years to build up a national state pension pot for retirees to draw on (no doubt enhanced from oil etc revenues). How many years we will have before we have a substantial number of pensioners drawing on this pot could be worked out from age demographics, by someone who could be bothered.

      As a women of a certain age, I’m not worried in the least about their pension scaremongering, ’cause that’s all it is.

    39. north chiel says:

      Crazy cat the one absolute guarantee on the state pension from a Westminster uk Tory government will be to MINIMIZE the Total CURRENT PENSIONS LIABILITY for as long as they control the purse strings.OF COURSE a certain method for discriminating against Scottish based N.I.and income tax payers is to Raise the state pension age, as residents of Scotland on average do not live as long as residents of elsewhere in the UK ( ON AVERAGE).
      Expect ( with a Tory win in the general election) further rises in the state pension age , followed later with “means testing” of the same being introduced further down the line.This will be all part of the continuing ” austerity welfare cuts agenda” central to their “foodbanks” “charitable” expansionist program.
      So much for Gordon Brown and his ” scare stories” on pensions after independence. So much for uk pension guarantees “under the security of the union”
      AYE RIGHT!VOTE YES!

    40. Johnny says:

      They’ve half-inched it already, I’m quite sure.

    41. Johnny says:

      Also at the current pace they are moving these things, I’ll need to be 304 years old before I am allowed a pension anyway.

    42. tinyzeitgeist says:

      Is Darling smoking ‘pension pot’? I’m posting this on FB so that my friends in England can enjoy his views on pensions. After all as we are better together they should also know about the UK ‘pension pot’ no?

    43. Johnny says:

      Devereux @ 11.50

      I have said lately to a couple of people that ‘the law is only the law as long as the majority accepts that’. It draws funny looks, though.

    44. arranc says:

      hubby had private pension when he passd got halved for me and have to pay tax

    45. thedogphilosopher says:

      @Indy_Scot 12.32 ‘…maybe they’re not lying, maybe they’re just thick as shit’.

      I would like to second that comment. It seems to me that the Yes side contains most of the intelligent and informed people in this campaign. That does sound a bit arrogant but I’m becoming more and more convinced of it each day that goes by.

      What you have to ‘admire’ about those in the Establishment No side is how they have cornered the market in ‘respectability’ and ‘trustworthiness’, as if the whole thing (politics) is just a game of pulling the wool over the voter’s eyes and seeing how much they can get away with, while at the same coming across as if butter wouldn’t melt.

      This would tie in with my other suspicion that much of the WM political class are well along the psychopathic spectrum. Yes, they are thick as shit, but very cunning, very manipulative.

    46. Az says:

      I’ve never commented here before, but this seems to be a tipping point for me. I now feel nothing but contempt and hatred towards the likes of Darling, Brown et al.
      It is literally all I can do to restrain myself from screaming obscenities at the top of my lungs.
      Thinking over and over “DIRTY B’S, DIRTY B’S dIRTY B’S”

      For the love of all that is decent, let the majority see some sense. Well at least I’ve had the slightly cathartic excercise of sharing my thoughts.

      Aaaannnd, relax. Few deep breaths.

    47. macart763m says:

      ‘We all pay into the same pension pot’.

      Puts down cup, carefully places breakables to one side and proceeds to bang head off table.

    48. Tattie-bogle says:

      It is 2 weeks till the Postal Vote goes out(ahem) and we still don’t know what currency we will use ? eh yes we do the £

    49. joe kane says:

      The British state pension is a highly abstract metaphysical concept these days much like everything else to do with the British welfare state.

      It’s all a bit like cutting edge particle physics. To be eligible for the British state pension you also need to be in a state of existence and, just like everything else to do with accessing the British welfare state that is being deliberately put beyond the reach of people who need to use it, such a state of still being alive at the official state age of retirement is getting harder to realise and achieve in the real world.

      ps
      Other abstract metaphysical DWP states of being –

      – Being found unfit for work doesn’t actually mean the DWP thinks you’re unfit for work. Despite the fact of being too ill and disabled to work you can actually be sanctioned if you don’t do unpaid work when ordered to by the DWP.

      – Being unemployed and having no visible means of financial income or support in no way entitles anyone to be classed as unemployed and entitled to broo money. And anyway unemployed aren’t classed as unemployed, they’re “Jobseekers”. In much the same way everything else in the official lexicon of the DWP has underwent a wholesale Orwellian language change to prevent such words as sickness, illness, disability and unemployment from ever being uttered within the confines of the walls of the DWP. As Orwell noted, once you start disappearing words people start to disappear too.

      It goes without saying that most of the orwellian-kafkaesque social engineering project began under New Labour.

      Reference –
      Number of Sick And Disabled Claimants Facing Sanctions Triples In Just Six Months
      johnny void
      13 Aug 2014

    50. You and My Comb says:

      @ T Jenny

      Although the SPPA does administer public sector pensions in Scotland, they operate in the same way as the state pension ie. the pensions if current pensioners are paid by current contributions (at least, as far as health service is concerned).

      Stu has the video on this site from the statement made by the UK Pensions Minister to the ‘Bayonet’s’ Scottish Affairs Comittee explaining the facts over pensions. The Rev has thoughtfully included a short précis by the ‘Bayonet’ himself for those with an attention span just a bit more than a 3 year old. These can be tracked down on you tube if it’s easier.

      Correct me if I am wrong but inthinknthe White Paper says that iscotland would take on paying pensions.

      The reason for the leaflet is that many older people use traditional methods of news delivery, like the written word, and are less likely go have the benefit of t’internet. Many will be taken in by this crap, unfortunately.

    51. john king says:

      thedogphilosopher says
      “maybe they’re not lying, maybe they’re just thick as shit’.”

      Or
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

      Upton Sinclair (1878-1968)

    52. davidb says:

      They ALL lie about pensions. Darling openly and brazenly told us last week it was a Ponzi scheme. So many of the lies are in plain site it clearly shows how cynical our politicians have become.

      The only guarantee you can make about pensions is that the politicians will be safe. The rest of us will have to wait and see.

      An important reason for reclaiming our Independence is that the UK is bankrupt. We will go down with their ship if we don’t take this chance to jump on the liferaft. We can make our own decisions about what matters to us, and we can take the consequences of our own actions – good or bad. Its not going to be easy or instant. Its going to take a generation to finally see the fruit. But is that not far better than condemning your grandchildren to their fate.

    53. Derek M says:

      ahh the economic myth your pensions are safe with the UK ,a total lie everyday the UK debt grows and overall taxation lowers due to various factors like lowering the tax threshold of those on low incomes ,reducing the taxation on those who can and should pay more on high wages,the ability of large corporations to “avoid” the level of taxation they should be paying through tax havens and loopholes and many more ill thought out schemes all add up to increased borrowing by the UK government ,that is why they have raised the pension age they can no longer make ends meet without borrowing heavily which passes the burden onto the next generation but hey we are all right union jack and screw the future its their problem and by that time we will have all left politics so wont be our problem ,a total mismanagement on an unbelievable scale to secure political votes in the present.
      Now enough about robbing peter to pay paul economics lets look at what an iScotland can do ,by simply creating an oil fund from tax revenue we could have a pension pot to secure all of us in the future with some spare cash to throw about ,seems to work fine for Norway ,so are we really better together no we are not.
      Vote yes Scotland to end this economic madness westminster has created and make a brighter future for our children and their children you know it makes sense.

    54. McHaggis says:

      They’ve used a typical Glaswegian 40 year old on those photos, hardly a pensioner. Another blatant lie by BT.

    55. Grant says:

      Why not take it up with Advertising Standards Authority?

    56. Fiona says:

      @davidb

      Site wouldn’t let me post a response so I have put it here

      http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=56702092

    57. O/T – Nuclear Radiation at Fukushima is FOUR TIMES that of Chernobyl.
      See – Sophie Co on RT tv right now.(07:30)

      There are 2 x million people living in the Fukushima Prefecture where their children are dying and suffering from Radioactive fallout diseases.

      The ex-mayor of Futaba says the Safety Report supplied from the Podium of the UN from a Japanese Prof – was a tissue of Lies.

      Drumchapel in Glasgow is less than 20 miles from Faslane, and 2 miles further is Coulport where 200 x Nuke Warheads are stored.

      Less than 80 miles from Faslane we have Nine Nuclear SUB POWER PLANTS – rusting and rotting at Rosyth,and, if Scots vote “NO” NEXT MONTH – we get all 27 x Nuke Subs of UK.
      FFS.

    58. Hewitt83 says:

      O/T

      Superb headline on the Press and Journal this morning.

      Maybe the oil isn’t runninng out so fast after all?

    59. Jim McIntosh says:

      O/T – Postie has just been and I’ve received my Scottish Referendum Official Polling Card. I’m not sure why but I was a bit paranoid that I was going to turn up at the polling station only to be to
      told I was not registered.

    60. Brian Fleming says:

      I don’t want to pour cold water on people’s faith in the solidity of the UK’s pension commitments, but……
      I moved (at the time, possibly temporarily) to Finland in 1987. For a couple of years I paid voluntary NI contributions to the UK. One day I wrote to the appropriate authority (I can’t remember what it was called at the time) in Longbenton near Newcastle to ask about my current pension position. I received a reply that they had no record of me. I immediately cancelled all payments of voluntary NI and decided to spend my entire working life in Finland. I don’t expect I’ll ever return to Scotland unless perhaps after a YES vote. An old age in poverty is not an attractive proposition. I pray for all of you over there that YES wins the day.

    61. Famous15 says:

      For accuracy it should be noted there is no actual pot or fund for the OAP and also for occupational public service pensions like FIRE and Police. The FBU and Police Federation way back wanted a fund like the NUM but were refused by Westminster.

      However in terms of who would be the safest provider the iScottish Government wins every time in terms of affordability . We just have to keep an eye on the demographics (vide John Swinney’s “secret analysis” or his guide to common sense public expenditure)

      Demographics? Yes just provide a better welcome to remain for those who study here and hang on to more of the youngsters born here by better jobs and housing. Yes it is a challenge but is that not what life is about!

    62. Michael says:

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/3175-fury-as-laughing-cameron-brands-scots-stupid

      Can we please make some more of this.
      Needs to be highlighted much more than it is.

      A public apology?

    63. davidb says:

      @ Fiona. The funds invested by new investors are used to pay the dividends to the older investors. Thats a Ponzi scheme. Its not quite a pyramid scheme where there is a reliance on sucking in ever more new contributions to pay off those higher up the chain. I think its closer to a Ponzi scheme. Moot perhaps.

      We have an Insurance Scheme where the premiums bear no relationship to the returns. The words are a bit of a misnomer. It was once a hypothecated income tax, before we all started to live longer.

      There are models in some other places where the citizen copays with their employers ( Singapore springs to mind ) and in effect looks out for themselves. But I am not expert. I understand a previous Chancellor who seems to be hailed as an expert in the field raided the tax shelter of the private pensions system a few years back, apparently doing much damage. Again, I am no expert.

      I am not writing a manifesto or organising a political party or standing for election. I do save slavishly in the full knowledge that I have been lied to by politicians since I started working.

      It may be comforting for people to have unrealistic expectations of what government can do for them, but I am not big on the idea that Independence is all about the quality of public services. Yes is not just for people on the left of politics.

    64. Macart says:

      @davidb

      “They all lie about pensions.”

      Well technically all politicians lie at some time either for party or personal gain period. The best way to judge between campaigns on any issue is what do you see around you. Ignore the reams of ‘facts’ fired at you and open your eyes to the effects of government.

      A question I’d like to have seen put to Mr Darling is – If we are supposedly better together, safer in unity, stronger in economy, then why aren’t we?

      You simply have to turn on a telly, look out a window, walk down a street. Its a bit like having that conversation with a creationist ‘If we’re only six thousand years old, how do you explain the dinosaurs?’ kinda thing.

      If we’re better, safer, stronger etc, how do you explain austerity, foreign adventures and blatant systemic governmental corruption?

    65. Fixitfox says:

      Is this the BT Pot calling the YES Kettle black?

    66. Hewitt83 says:

      http://www.energyvoice.com/2014/08/video-north-sea-resource-produce-700million-barrels/

      777 million barrels of Oil in this field alone to last until at least 2050.

      But Oil is a bad thing remember.

    67. Grouse Beater says:

      The notion of swallowing any bitterness if a No vote carries the day on a raft of lies and deception should fill us all with anger.

    68. Leymal says:

      Looks remarkably like a bbc graphic on there. Funny that.

    69. galamcennalath says:

      State pensions are something else UKOK should be ashamed of!

      My understanding is that, for many years now, UK state pensions lag well behind other developed countries.

      http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2514378/Only-Mexico-worse-state-pension-UK.html

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html

      I would hope iScotland, given its GDP, should be able to improve the situation (in time) and get us more in line with European neighbours.

    70. Wp says:

      Hewett83, thank for that link, on the same page is a story of Noways oil fund recent perchase of property in Mayfair for £343 million. It’s portfolio also has properties in Times Square and The Champs-Élysées. What a waste of oil money, far better with foodbanks.

    71. X_Sticks says:

      Thanks Hewitt83 / Nana tweeted that one!

      That’s three large new fields – Lancaster/Hurricane Excite/Bentley and BP/Shell/Claire all coming on stream.

      So much for the oil running out.

      No wonder WM doesn’t want to lose Scotland.

    72. Macart says:

      @X_Sticks

      Yep, just wait till you see next years’ receipts from the north sea. They made much noise about how low the returns were in the last set of figures. They were counting on people looking at the bottom line and not at the history of background investment, fields temporarily shut down, but due to come back online, new field exploration and technical advances. £1.4tr? Chickenfeed to what the potential is and UK gov knew it.

      Just like forty odd years ago when they deliberately misled the public, so history repeats today. Fool me once…

    73. Grouse Beater says:

      The photographs on the leaflets come from Crowd Casting.

      A good many in them won’t be Scotland domiciled.

      ‘What did Danel Defoe do? Let’s do that!”

    74. Hewitt83 says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28739640

      Wings getting mentioned as a source for people to visit for independence info.

      Incredible scenes!

    75. Craig P says:

      davidb:

      An important reason for reclaiming our Independence is that the UK is bankrupt.

      I can’t help thinking that a no vote will be a repeat of 1979, where all the things we are warned will go to shit (then, mining, shipyards and factories; now, currency, EU membership and pensions) will go to shit anyway under the illusory security of ‘the best of both worlds’.

      Grant:

      Why not take it up with Advertising Standards Authority?

      Stu has already established that lies are permitted in political literature under ASA rules.

    76. Fiona says:

      @davidb

      http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=56702092&p=398304956

      Reply here, again, because this site is not letting me post today for some reason

    77. Grouse Beater says:

      can’t help thinking that a no vote will be a repeat of 1979, where all the things we are warned will go to shit (then, mining, shipyards and factories; now, currency, EU membership and pensions) will go to shit anyway under the illusory security of ‘the best of both worlds’.

      Our caring, sharing English politicians and their Scottish lickspittle have made all that cystal clear, even to the audacity of blocking democractic progress by delaying independence if, ‘it is not in the interest of the United Kingdom.’

      I am certain Thatcher dismantled much of Scotland’s economic strength in order to keep it docile and weak.

    78. Nana Smith says:

      The No campaign have denigrated Scotland ,lied to us over and over, scaring our elderly and openly condone the use of foodbanks.

      How anyone in Scotland can vote No is beyond me. I will not forgive the media collusion with project fear.

    79. Craig Fraser says:

      This reminds me of the Matrix film – Neo meets a young lad bending a spoon. He says to Neo you can’t bend the spoon as the spoon is not there. Just like the UK state pension you cannot invest in the UK state pension as it is not there. Workers pay in today and money paid out directly to pensioners et al. Or have I got this wrong?

    80. Grouse Beater says:

      Westminster will take its revenge on Scotland if there is a ‘No’ vote.

      Canon Kenyon Wright

      He is, of course, correct. That’s the way Westminster has always operated whenever Scotland demanded equality.

      As someone who moves in those social circles I can guarantee they have draconian sanctions in mind this time around too. They talk of them openly.

    81. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T

      Was at Yes fundraising dinner at the Marcliffe in Aberdeen with Alex Salmond, John Swinney and Elaine C Smith last night. Very buoyant mood and it sure didn’t feel like Yes is behind in the polls.

      Over 260 people attended and £17.5k raised for Yes!

      Good to see Tartan Tory there, but missed you at the end – was under heavy manners with Mrs X_Sticks there. It was past her bedtime and I knew it 😉

      Let’s get out there and WIN FOR YES!

    82. Roderick Scott says:

      @ cynicalhighlander – he keeps the pot under his bed along with the other pish he talks.

    83. Macart says:

      @Nana Smith

      So long as we can live with those who vote no for whatever reason Nana. They’re our family, friends, neighbours and people in our wider community.

      But I’m 100% with you on the media and the politicians.

    84. Albert Herring says:

      “Stu has already established that lies are permitted in political literature under ASA rules”

      But are lies permitted under Electoral Commission rules?

      “You must not use threats, intimidation, deception or fraud to persuade electors to vote for an outcome”

      I’ve reported this breach to the Electoral Commission, specifically concerning the lies they published on behalf of BT in their “Voting Guide” booklet.

      Just waiting to hear what action they’re going to take.

      Shouldn’t be long now…..

    85. X_Sticks says:

      @Grouse Beater

      “I am certain Thatcher dismantled much of Scotland’s economic strength in order to keep it docile and weak.”

      Yup, GB. Coal, Steel, Shipbuilding, Engineering, the Scottish banks, Fly Globespan, the Whisky industry and Oil.

      All either gone or hobbled to prevent too much success in Scotland from giving us jocks ideas above our station.

    86. Nana Smith says:

      @Macart

      Project fear will be the main reason some will vote No and that will be down to the media.

      I would never blame any elderly person taken in but my goodness young folks have the tools at hand to educate themselves and find out who is telling the truth.

      My son’s friend is English and says he will vote No and trusts Westminster. Will not listen to us when we try and point out the facts. So bang head against the wall time!

    87. galamcennalath says:

      @Macart
      @Nana Smith

      If there is a Yes win, I will be of a more forgiving disposition towards No voters, accepting that they were lead astray by overwhelming MSM & BT.

      If there is a No win, then forgiveness will be harder to find for No voters, I will see them as stupidly torching Scotland’s future.

      As for BT & MSM, they are damned and beyond redemption.

    88. bunter says:

      If there is a NO vote, we should continue here and train our sights on the media. They think they can get away with lies and misinformation in the debate, hoping we will all forget after 18/9. Er NO.

    89. desimond says:

      It may be lucky there isnt an actual pension pot because you could gaurantee Gideon and his bitch Danny would be looking at privatising it by now if there was.

      After NHS, pensioners viewed as the other major drain to the Westminster Lets help London help ourselves coffers so quicker they could dump both, the better in their eyes.

    90. desimond says:

      C’mon everyone, get promoting the WBB and lets get rid of these liars forever

      http://etims.net/?p=5510

    91. superjaxx says:

      If you have a vote and are voting Yes, sign up to this facebook page to show your solidarity. I’ve watched membership more than double from just 6,000 to almost 13,000 in just a few days. Wouldn’t it be amazing if we got like 1,000,000 people saying they were going to vote yes? May help to sway undecideds if the see the support yes has!

      https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/events/496687853766663?ref=m_notif&notif_t=event_mall_reply

    92. McTim says:

      In the event of a No vote, we’ll have to get as many SNP MPs into the Westminster Parliament as possible, and get the SNP re-elected in 2016 with a push for a second Indy referendum in 2017 right after England has voted the entire UK out of Europe. Combine that with the threat to our NHS, the true extent of the austerity measures to sink in and the realisation that Westminster won’t keep any of the feeble pledges they’re now making, and that should provide enough tipping points for the remaining Don’t Knows and soft No’s to see us over the finishing line IF we don’t win this September. We will win though in 5 weeks, but hopefully on a decent margin.

    93. Macart says:

      @Nana and galamcennalath

      Frustrates the hell out of me too when you see younger people, who do have the tools to hand simply refusing to see what’s right before their eyes.

      In the event of a no vote the last conversation I want to have is the one that begins ‘I told you so’. But we’re not there yet and all to play for.

    94. McTim says:

      Man, I wish there was an Edit button. That should have read, “we’ll have to get as many SNP MPs into the Westminster Parliament as possible in the 2015 UK election”.

    95. heedtracker says:

      I am certain Thatcher dismantled much of Scotland’s economic strength in order to keep it docile and weak.

      It was much more than just Thatcher

      http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSA00847 The Forge closed down in 1976 with 26 thousand job losses and all under Labour, Callaghan, Heath, Benn.

      If you had even the first North Sea oil reports in front of you back then, would you be closing down UK steel production? Southern North Sea oil and gas production’s been ongoing since the early 60’s, with North Sea oil drilling results all ready by the late 60’s, early 70’s.

      So whatever was going on in Whitehall 3 or 4 decades ago, they had never had intention of doing the same as Norway, UK.gov Labour or Tory. That’s what power is all about and we’re all being given a giant demonstration on how to keep hold of it. As in rancid old Graun”s hideous Ronald MacDonald’s ” you’ll be a crashed petro- economy” garbage yesterday.

    96. TheItalianJob says:

      @Lesley-Anne says

      Spot on Lesley Anne. You have been reading and listening to what has been said about this from the Works and Pensions advisor to the Parliamentary select committee a few months back and this is also my understanding of the pensions going forward in and independent Scotland.

    97. TheItalianJob says:

      @Big Red says

      You are also correct in this regarding pensions in and Independent Scotland.

    98. Liquid Lenny says:

      Lesley-Anne

      Aint read all the comments, its my understanding that if you have paid the minimum national insurance contributions which will be 35 years worth for new retiree’s then you will get your pension from fUK. However they may not be in a position to honour their pension commitment.

    99. Roland Smith says:

      Not desperately relevant but there is actually an NI fund. Currently its got about 22 billion in it. Worth remembering when it comes to counting up the assets to be divided.

    100. tartanfever says:

      So the simple message to get out to voters is this.

      There is no state pension pot. Pensions are paid out of general taxation.

      Therefore as Scotland generates more in tax revenues than the UK and has done so for 32 of the last 33 years your pension is safer in an independent Scotland.

      Case closed.

    101. galamcennalath says:

      @McTim

      I tend to think the same way. If there is a No win, it will only be by a few percent. A battle lost. The war must go on. [I hate military analogies, but it seems appropriate.]

      However! I still we have a good chance of winning on the 18th.

    102. Midgehunter says:

      I am officially retired allthough I still run my business at the moment.

      I receive THREE pensions, each proportional to the amount of time working/living in the respective countries.

      I have one pension from the UK.
      A second one from Germany.
      A third one from Denmark.

      I receive each one at the appropriate time each month.

      When increases in the pensions are announced, I receive them without fail, also Xmas bonuses.

      The amounts are paid in Euro in to my present account in Germany, no hassle with conversion.

      When I return to Scotland (hopefully before March 2016 / business situation), I will still receive my pensions without any problem. They’ll be paid in whatever currency I choose – pound, Bawbee, Euro or whatever.

      Darling talks bulls**t.

    103. chalks says:

      There is also the simple fact that they are keeping us working longer and longer.

      I’d hazard in ten years time the retirement age will be 72.

    104. Karmanaut says:

      Imagine there was a pot and everyone paid in £1. A pot for 60 million people would be worth £60m, which means everyone would be entitled to the £1 they put in. A pot for 5 million people would be worth £5m, which means everyone would be entitled to the £1 they put in.

    105. Proud Cybernat says:

      Well, let’s be fair–Darling did stand in front of the nation on TV and tell us that the claims made by Better Together were just “a joke”. So, don’t take anything they tell you seriously folks (not that I think you do).

    106. Black Douglas says:

      80 less people today paying into the “pension pot”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-28803561

      Better Together I think not! 😡

    107. Proud Cybernat says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-28803561

      I wonder if they thought the Union would safeguard their jobs?

    108. Trixy says:

      This twitter account is alleging that paid Parli staff are being used by Lab MSP to campaign, wonder if there is anything in it? https://twitter.com/truth45r

    109. Gillie says:

      Pension pot has got a tad smaller with Ferguson shipyard in Port Glasgow going bust.

      The unions are going to be embarrassed by this.

    110. Sinky says:

      I thought Darling was trying to say it was just a joke when Labour’s Shadow Health Minister Andy Burnham told Holyrood magazine, “Let’s get health policies that can be consistent across England, Scotland and Wales”.

      So the people of Scotland should beware – a No vote in September puts NHS Scotland at grave risk from Tory privatisation and Labour austerity cuts.

      Daily Wail online reports Labour is under fire for employing a senior adviser on an ‘off payroll’ arrangement which is often used to avoid tax.

      Kevin Lee, who manages the office of shadow health secretary Andy Burnham, is not on a typical staff contract but is paid through his own private company.

      These sorts of deals have been criticised by Labour, because they allow both the employee and the employer to get out of paying National Insurance contributions.

      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2724461/Pay-deal-Labour-MP-s-aide-sparks-row-tax-Party-previously-criticised-payroll-arrangements-used-avoid-paying-National-Insurance.html#ixzz3ASEPT1Xf

    111. Gillie says:

      835 jobs axed at BAE Govan.

      80 jobs gone as Ferguson’s goes bust.

      What were the GMB union saying that only Westminster can protect jobs on the Clyde.

    112. Training Day says:

      The Scottish Affairs Committee (Chairchoob in the Chair) told us last year that – and I quote – ‘Separation shuts shipyards’.

      They lie. The Union shuts shipyards.

      Thoughts with the folk losing their jobs.

    113. Andy-B says:

      Received, my Electrol Commission booklet today, in the booklet there’s a couple of lines explaining, the benefits of independence.

      Whoever there’s a full page explaining the huge benefits of remaining in the union. Also there’s a column, where an ordinary working mum named Lisa Gardner, from Cambuslang, explains the UK,
      s great because we have the best of both worlds.

      So much for the Electrol Commission not taking sides, in the independence debate.

    114. Helena Brown says:

      What can you say about Better Together, if they loathe Scotland so much and think it is a terrible place why don’t they just move South, oh right, they don’t want them either, just handy tools.

    115. handclapping says:

      @Training Day
      Save Scottish shipyards – separate!

    116. Helena Brown says:

      Andy-B, We got ours last week and I have to say I tried looking her up, got the wrong town into my brain, but what is it with Better Together/Tory/Labour and their ordinary Mum’s. They don’t listen to a whole lot of ordinary Mum’s who think differently.

    117. galamcennalath says:

      Less than five weeks to go and we still haven’t heard BT’s Plan A for Scotland in the event of a No.

      They ask for us to vote for a pig in a poke, but criticise Yes who present extensive plans for a future iScotland.

      And yet, some people allegedly plan to vote No. Deeply frustrating!

    118. Anne Lawrie says:

      Many seem to think that if we vote no, there’ll be another chance in a few years! What nonsense! If there’s a no vote WM will ensure we’ll NEVER be able to have this chance again. Tam Dalyell is not alone in thinking the Scottish parliament should go. WM could probably sell it to their cronies to develop as upmarket apartments (selling point – nice neighbours!) As far as the pensions are concerned, privatisation of the NHS will ensure that many don’t even live long enough to collect their state pension!
      Only the elite will be able to afford further education and be assured of a seat in WM.

    119. fred blogger says:

      compulsory membership of any org/union is bad for human vitality. one must be able, have freedom, to choose to join or leave @ anytime, vote yes!

    120. Ronnie says:

      X-Sticks @ 9.33.

      “£17.5k raised for Yes!”

      According to the wonderful P&J, the dinner raised £124,000, for Yes, which includes a single donation of £100,000 by a ‘mystery donor’.

      Not you, then?

    121. HandandShrimp says:

      I think the thing that annoyed me most about Burnham “joke” thing that Darling tried to use to rubbish Salmond’s accusation of ridiculous scaremongering was that it was not reported as a joke.

      He went on: “Maybe people in Scotland don’t feel any great affection to the north of England but I think they do and where a Yes vote leaves us is with a higher chance of a Tory government. My appeal would be to get the leaders of those northern cities up there to Scotland to say, ‘please, recognise that we are better together fighting together’.”

      Motorists would have to drive on the right and present their passports at the Border if Scotland becomes independent, Mr Burnham added.

      Mr Burnham told Holyrood Magazine: “I would feel really genuinely sad if Scotland votes for independence, not just for our own self-interest and in the extra difficulty we would face getting a Labour government in England but I also don’t want to drive up the M6 and get my passport out or have to drive on the right when I want to drive on the left.”

      The above snip is taken from Matthew Holehouse’s piece in the Telegraph on the 19/2/14. Holehouse didn’t see it as a joke. I do not recall anyone from Better Together rushing to say that this was a joke at the time. It looked very much like a serious article by Burnham asking Scots to stay in the Union to ensure a Tory defeat with a couple comments to remind us how foreign we would be if we voted Yes.

      Darling said it was a joke and Burnham almost immediately tweeted to say “Yes, it was a joke” I call both out as liars.

    122. Kevin McLaren (SNP) says:

      When’s a pot not a pot?

      …When it’s a rubbish bin?

    123. TD says:

      Tartanfever

      You have summed up the pension situation perfectly. It all comes down to the viability of the public finances. And we know that Scotland will be in a better position financially than the UK.

      The National Insurance system is a glorified, state run Ponzi scheme. You repay past investors from the contributions of new investors. There’s never anything there – there is no pot. In the real world, people are sent to jail for this. Remember Madoff?

    124. cearc says:

      Ronnie,

      And there was me thinking that it must be you.

    125. Hewitt83 says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28802697

      More positivity from the BBC.

      I’m getting dizzy!

    126. X_Sticks says:

      @Ronnie

      Wow, hadn’t seen that Ronnie. No, unfortunately it wasn’t me. A bit out of my league. There must have been other donations added later too, my £17.5k was the amount they announced at the end of the night.

      Hope to see you tomorrow at the Yes stall and Sunday with the YesMobile in Aberdeen.

    127. PeeGee says:

      The herald once of glasgow has changed the headline so that it is now “Salmond” to blame for closure of Ferguson’s.

      Well done them. Enjoy being unemployable.

    128. jon esquierdo says:

      People were once told that the earth was flat and they believed it.

    129. jon esquierdo says:

      How will westminster manage to pay for the current people in Scotland who are on a state pension after independence when they have no income from scottish tax payers? That must be a very big worry for the DWP

    130. Calgacus says:

      Was Darling’s blood and soil remark a joke?

    131. HandandShrimp says:

      Calgacus

      I’m beginning to think their whole campaign was a joke.

    132. Big jock says:

      The Herald headline is an absolute scandal. Since when did the Scottish government have the economy and shipbuilding devolved! This is the ultimate proof that the media are being paid by the rich owners on the no side who own the press. How in any remotest sense is Salmond to blame! The shipyards closed under London rule!

    133. Vestas says:

      Am I the only one whose first thought was “bloody hell its Chris Huhnes ex-wife”? 😀

      /me will get his coat 🙂

    134. Nick Edmunds says:

      On a lighter note, sorry: I thought at first the picture they used was Nigel Slater in drag

    135. Nana Smith says:

      @X_Sticks

      Going to Aberdeen tomorrow…where will the Yes stall be located?

    136. X_Sticks says:

      @Nana

      Just outside Mark & Spencer on Union Street (soon to be renamed Separation Street 😉 )

    137. X_Sticks says:

      @Big Jock

      Look forward to James getting his teeth into that on ScotGoesPop.

      No doubt Scottish Skier will have fun with the numbers too.

    138. Nana Smith says:

      @X_Sticks

      Separation St has a certain ring to it hahahaha

      Depending on the traffic I will try and stop by.

    139. Nana Smith says:

      Re the Ferguson job losses. Statement from scotgov below…

      Responding to the announcement that Ferguson Shipbuilders, the last shipbuilders on the Lower Clyde has gone into receivership, MSP for West of Scotland Stuart McMillan said:

      “This is terrible news for Ferguson Shipbuilders and all the workers who face an uncertain future.

      “As someone who was brought up in Port Glasgow and is fully aware of what shipbuilding means to the area I am devastated for all those involved.

      “I was hoping the order for two hybrid ferries, from the Scottish Government, was going to be a springboard for more opportunities for the yard.

      “I have been in contact with John Swinney and the Scottish Government to ask for their support and I know they will do everything possible to help keep Ferguson’s working and I also intend to raise the matter in the Scottish Parliament next week.”

    140. Big jock says:

      Also Press & Journal reporting massive oil find in Clair sector! I can’t get into the link but we need to get this out if someone can post the link. Needs to go mainstream that’s our game changer if it’s factually accurate!

    141. Nana Smith says:

      sorry that should read statement from msp Stuart McMillan

    142. McTim says:

      I’ll take the 18th and 19th off, and vote early to avoid the prospect of such long queues in the evening that they have to turn people away at 10pm. Edinburgh City Council are sending me a postal vote even though I didn’t ask for one but the chap on the phone told me I can hold on to it and just hand it in to the registrar officer at my polling station on the 18th. I want to soak up the atmosphere and do my bit of voting day activities in Leith.

    143. chalks says:

      Jock, it’s the bentley field to the east of shetland….clair ridge is to the west.

    144. Hewitt83 says:

      Same here McTim, I’m going up there bang on 7am then spending the rest of the day in front of the TV.

      What a horrible, tense day it’s going to be.

    145. heraldnomore says:

      WBB printing – see Stu’s twitter feed – indiegogo here we go

    146. Calgacus says:

      Hand and Shrimp

      I think we will be the ones laughing on September 19th. ????

    147. HandandShrimp says:

      Calgacus

      I hope so because the direction of the UK is not going to leave many smiles on peoples faces if it is a No vote.

    148. Les Wilson says:

      O/T a very interesting article about the known and the possible oil finds in our new boom North Sea area. Thw Atlantic Margin.

      http://www.scotsindependent.org/features/game_changer.htm

    149. chalks says:

      Big Jock, it’s been updated since then….500 million extra barrels…

      http://www.energyvoice.com/2014/08/video-north-sea-resource-produce-700million-barrels/

      God only know’s how much is in the clair ridge, the initial estimate on that was 600 million.

    150. TJenny says:

      heraldnomore – already donated. 🙂 Come on and dig deep peeps, we need to get the WBB out to as many undecideds and Nos as possible before the vote. 🙂

    151. doorstepper says:

      In 2007, it was expected that my UK pension would be paid ‘in full and on time’.In 2012, I was informed that it would be five months late and £3000 pounds short. And I’ve got off easily compared to most.This shows me that UK can no more guarantee the future of pensions than iScotland.

    152. John O says:

      Off topic i know but worth a mention it seem’s better together were right about the ship yards being safe in the union or maybe not then.

      http://tinyurl.com/qemxa8q

    153. Big jock says:

      Chalks it’s time for Salmond to press Darling and Cameron and Alexander about the secret oil trip to the Shetlands. He also needs to get it into peoples heads that we are being lied to as per 1979. We might even have more oil than Norway. Good God if Scots can’t see this then I despair!

    154. Jim says:

      Ah well, no matter what financial crisis happens the rich never get any poorer, Millionaires and Billionaires will still be Millionaires and Billionaires.

    155. Nana Smith says:

      A new Oil and Gas Islands forum: The framework recognises the islands are vital to meeting the UK’s energy needs. The UK Government is committed to work with the Islands Councils to assist strategic decision-making on future priorities for the oil and gas industry. This will allow the councils to work more closely with the UK Government and industry.

      Above is a paragraph from the Stornoway gazette article.

      All of a sudden the UK gov are falling over backwards to please…whiff of desperation I would say.

      http://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/news/local-headlines/uk-government-responds-to-our-islands-our-future-campaign-with-ten-point-plan-1-3510802

    156. Edward says:

      Re the closure of the Ferguson yard
      Shocking headline in the Herald, but they are pandering to the quotes supplied by GMB (read Labour – interchangeable) and the very anti independence GMB leader Jim Mohan, who just hates independence, SNP and anyone that supports independence.

      The GMB leader is trying to and succeeding in having the media twist things to make out its all the fault of that Alic Salmin

      Hopefully GMB members see through this crass politicising , what is a traumatic situation for the workers of Fergusons

    157. Pam McMahon says:

      Why are they using Stanley Baxter as their pension pot pin up “girl”? It’s almost as scary as Tam Dalyell, ex-guards officer, door stepping me in general elections, when I used to be a constituent.

    158. Ronnie says:

      X-Sticks,

      Will be on the Aberdeen stall tomorrow, but I’m on the Freedom Convoy on Sunday.

      Weather’s nae looking’ great, tho’.

    159. call me dave says:

      Lord Reid has been taking the truth serum. 🙂

      BBC Scotland reports.

      During a speech in Midlothian ahead of September’s referendum, Lord Reid said an independent Scotland would face spending cuts of £6bn, meaning “schools and hospitals in Scotland would be at risk”.

      In reply, former Scottish Labour Party chairman Bob Thomson, now a leading member of Labour for Independence, said: “Increasing numbers of Labour members and supporters are realising that an independent Scottish Parliament offers a much better way of making sure that the wealth of Scotland works for all the people of Scotland than an out-of-touch Westminster ever has.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/

    160. Ronnie says:

      X-Sticks/Nana Smith,

      The ‘Spirit of Independence’ will also be at the Aberdeen stall tomorrow.

    161. call me dave says:

      @Pam McMahon

      That’s exactly what my first reaction was Stanley Baxter.
      He’s a NO officially.

    162. X_Sticks says:

      Ronnie says:

      “Weather’s nae looking’ great, tho’.”

      I’ll bring ma wellies 😉

    163. sydthesnake says:

      BBC pole has no @ 55%
      yes @ 35%
      don’t knows at 11%

      who’s calculator are they using add all 3 and I get 101

      ????????????

    164. YESGUY says:

      Same scares different day.

      Folks are not gonna fall for this are they ??

      We shot the pension scares down months ago but here they are again . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

      How can anyone believe the tripe from WM or the NT lot. Give a positive reason for the union ya shower of liars.

    165. Bob Sinclair says:

      Damn it, was hoping to be the one to push it over 20k, but never mind, i know it’ll buy a damn good bundle of books.

    166. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has lost £4Billion a year in Oil tax revenues since 2011. Alexander/Osbourne 11% (£2Billion) increase up to 60% – 80%. Scotland has had £1.3Billion a year cut to Block Grant. Pensioners have lost £30Million cuts a year since 2011. £1.5Million Cuts in welfare/Benefits. Average of £7Billion+ a year. Enough to pay higher pernsions in Scotland.

    167. Ken500 says:

      The Ferguson shipbuilders should get themselves up to the NE, where there is a shortage of skills.

      The Islanders should never trust a Tory or their namesnakes.

    168. todayinscotland says:

      New posts, please share

      todayinscotland | The Referendum Blues
      https://todayinscotland.wordpress.com/

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath
      Roughly 20% of the population are gullible and a further 20% intransigent, so that should take care of the bulk of Naw. We’ve just got to make sure the other 60% have their eyes open. Nature (i.e. evolution), should take care of the rest.

      Note: There is little or no scientific basis to my hypothesis. 🙂

    170. Ken500 says:

      Scottish taxpayers pay £16Billion a year for (UK) pensions/benefits. Scotland raises, on average, £58+ Billion. Gets back, on average, £28Billion (half) + £16Billion (pension/benefits. Scotland could save £1.5Billion on Trident/redundant weaponry/illegal wars. £1.5Bilion could be saved by a tax on ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol.

    171. Bob Sinclair says:

      One of Jim Murphy’s ‘Grass-Roots’ Shawlands supporters.

      http://www.dropbox.com/s/h4cqyc5hboyfdzt/Screenshot_2014-08-15-19-48-50.png

    172. Sinky says:

      Why do you think BBC / STV/ Proud Scottish journalists / editors failed to report this news?

      http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/9594-huge-north-sea-oil-find-enough-to-produce-for-over-thirty-five-years

    173. crazycat says:

      @ Bob Sinclair

      Well spotted indeed!

    174. Rock says:

      Albert Herring,

      “Stu has already established that lies are permitted in political literature under ASA rules”

      “But are lies permitted under Electoral Commission rules?”

      Yes, they are.

      The Electoral Commission is itself peddling lies on behalf of Better Together who don’t have the manpower to deliver them themselves.

      The system is rotten to the core.

    175. Rock says:

      galamcennalath,

      “If there is a No win, then forgiveness will be harder to find for No voters, I will see them as stupidly torching Scotland’s future.”

      It will be even harder still to find No voters!

      Regardless of Yes or No, no-one will admit to voting No.

    176. Ken500 says:

      The BT leaflets are total propaganda.

      The UK gov (ConDem) has committed to a standard £140? future basic Pension, regardless of contributions etc.

      Pensioners would need £180 week pension just to stand still with additional benefits being cut. (ie rate rebates, additional means tested welfare benefits supplements). This is where most of the Welfare benefit goes to heat and eat low income pensioners. The one’s who have given most in the past.

      Pensioners pay tax. In Scotland 9% of pensioners keep working (poorer?) In the rest of the UK 6% of pensioners (wealthier?) keep working. In Scotland, on average, people die younger than in the rest of the UK. There is less of a pension deficit in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK. In an Independent Scotland priorities could change, and pensioners could get higher pension payments. Scotland gov pension costs £6Billion. In the rest of the UK £68Billion. A higher liability pro rata. If as reported yearly pension liability is £74Billion in the UK.

      Why does the UK government no open the books and publish the Accounts.? Not secretly acting against the public interest.

    177. Ken500 says:

      The terminal at Sullom Voe could just be moved. The Shetland’s are not indispensable. Oil Companies are not committed to exclusive use and were already were considering other alternatives because of cost.

      The importance of Orkney/Shetland to the Oil industry is often overstated for political purposes.

      Orkney/Shetland has a £300Million Oil Fund, negotiated by former Dave Clark an Islands negotiator.

    178. Fay says:

      Lie number three ‘Better Together’ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    179. Penderyn says:

      Well I had confirmation last week from the Department of whatever it is that look after pensions in Newcastle. rI paid into the “pot” for 5 years, and left the UK for Germany in 1994. I am still entitled to a small crust from this “pot”. Any Scot who has therefore paid in up to and including the date of independence will therefore also be entitled to either a crust or a full loaf of hovis depending on what he/she has paid in.

    180. Hamish Humphy says:

      Just realised – that’s the foul-mouthed old woman that’s been out campaigning with Jim Murphy. She said some very uncomplimentary remarks to a YES voter who asked Jim a question. Once again, Bigots Together are unable to find an “ordinary” person for their campaign propaganda.

      p.s. She also reminds me of Alf Garnett’s long suffering wife in “In Sickness and in Health”.



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