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Wings Over Scotland


Missing you already

Posted on October 10, 2012 by

Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories have all recently called for the good people of England to speak up for the Union, and express how much they value the contribution of Scots to the UK. Helpfully (and very rarely), the BBC has allowed comments on a Scottish story today to give them the opportunity. We must admit, we didn’t manage to get through everything, but these are some of the ones that DIDN’T get modded off.

nicelobon winit
With 90% of Scotts getting some kind of state handout from the UK tax payer the sooner the Scotts go their own eay the better if you ask me, Salmond is just a nasty bitter little nationalist who hates England he will drag Scotland down with him so good luck to him and them.

squeezy
So I trust all the finacial support from England that allows Scotland to give free university places, free prescriptions etc that are unaffordable in England will be withdrawn. I cannot imagine Scotland lasting long if they have to pay for eveytghing with their own taxes.

Bauer
I’m looking forward to voting no in the referendum for Scotland to be allowed to be part of England again once they realise that North Sea oil and wind power is not enough to sustain their economy.
Once you’re out we don’t ever want you back.

The Ace Face
Does this mean we can deport all the Scottish people from the UK?

littlemisterfurious
Please vote yes. Please please please vote yes. We’ll be so glad to be shot of you.
A word of warning for the future though. When you find that you’ve run out of money and can no longer balance your budget:
1) Mel Gibson will be mysteriously unavailable.
2) Liam Neeson will stop answering your calls.
3) Sean Connery will have fled back to Hollywood.
Good Luck.
Send us a Post Card.

(Liam Neeson?)

anotherfakename
I would happily vote for casting them adrift, will finish any chance of Labour being elected again in the UK, will cut our tax bill (no more subsidies). Will get rid of a lot of current MP’s who can be sent north of the border to join their comrades. When it comes to oil, armed forces et al remember who has footed the bill and we will keep them. Can’t be anything but good.

longshot356
I used to respect and like the Scots. However I must say this referendum debate has revealed their true colours to me. Now I cant wait to be shut of you. Sadly, I dont think, when the true financial situation becomes clear to you, that you’ll have the guts to vote for independence.

stereotonic
With Global economy the state that it’s in, Scotland won’t last 5 minutes on their own, so who do you think will be keeping them afloat?. . . . .That’ll be the rust of us UK tax paying mugs then

Assynt
The UK would be mad to accept Scotland’s demand for the majority of oil to be in ‘Scottish Waters’. Salmond is on record as saying he wants a fair and equitable split of National assets – demanding 8% of what Brown left of the gold reserves! It will only be fair and equitable that Scotland gets 8% of oil reserve revenue. The ‘Scottish Waters’ argument is irrelevant the seabed belongs to the Crown!

xyriach
It has no means to support itself. Simple as. Oil and Gas will move to either Norway or England when they get into a tax break bidding war following Scottish independance which the Scots simply can’t afford to be part of.
English workers\companies will then become international, they’ll suffer tax consequences forcing withdrawal from Scotland, ultimately, it will collapse.

kaybraes
Will Mao Tse Salmond have the schoolchildren out on the streets waving his little red book ? Will we get a referendum on Europe after the referendum on independence ? Will Salmond and his far left acolytes tell anyone the truth about the financial prospects for Scotland ? What if some regions don’t want independence ? Will there be a Scots secret police force? Will dissidents be arrested?

Ooh! Mao Tse Salmond! Is that a new one?

Walt78
The SNP are poisoning our Country & not for some braveheart medieval notion of Scottish Freedom but for their own ends, so that they can have absolute power over the Scottish people. Rather than independence they will simply sell Scotland down the EU river. Don’t take my word for it, Salmond himself sees Scotland as like the “Celtic Tiger Rep of Ireland” & look at the state that they are in.

Damian
no, no money would they get from us, that would be political suicide for any party in power. Further, they needn’t think they’re starting with a clean sheet, they can take their fair share of the National Debt too. Oh, one last thing, just because it’s in the North Sea does NOT make it Scotish. Re 16 year olds, yes, gullible. Research shows more likly to vote Yes, why SNP want ’em included.

Alan
I like the scottish, don’t misunderstand me. But the fact remains, that every scottish person i have ever met has been extremely hate-filled towards the english. asking for a drink in a scottish bar will prompt a five-hour tirade of abuse.
So if we split, i will stand on hadrians wall, wave and shout:
“Good riddance, and take the bagpipes with you.”

Hyopocon
In 2014 Glasgow hosts the Commonwealth Games. Repeat after me: British Commonwealth Games. You are all a bit Previous getting hysterical about the findings of a referendum. Most of all Cameron. Would you mind having this walking Embarrassment Repatriated and off the backs of the long-suffering English? Thought not.

(Nope, us either.)

KickAssAndGiggle
Can’t wait for Scotland to leave. The Union is FARRRR better off without them.
Why are my fellow Englishmen so concerned????
Scotland and its people drags us down. Embrace a yes vote.

steve
If Salmond Expects the UK government to willingly give over £1.5 Trillion of UK assets if He wins the vote while keeping 90% of UK debts He is much more stupid than He looks.

geo
Every person i speak to wants rid of Salmond and dose not want to leave the union its a minority in the county that watched braveheart to many times. personally i think we should paint salmonds face blue and cast adrift into the north sea the sooner we are rid of him and his stupid idea the better , He wants to allow children to decide the Scottish future as he can have them brainwashed in schools

Davey Bones
Scotland has and continues to be a leach on the rest of the union, England especially would be so much better off it didn’t have to subsidise the Scots any longer.

Joyanblu
Want to be separate? FINE as long as after it happens ENLAND has effective border controls, SCOTS will be regarded as illegal immigrants the same as any other European if they want to come and work in England and will be deported just the same.Separation is separation…they want it not us so let them take the consequences and not us. The whole thing is stupid and just headline grabbing

lfd44
Scotland is a terrible country anyway, let’s be honest.

It’s going to be a real wrench.

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    188 to “Missing you already”

    1. Steven of Songnam says:

      I listened to this song while I read the comments. It was pretty darn funny.
       

    2. Steve McKay says:

      The sense of self loathing is palpable. So many years reading fictional journalism and avoiding ‘fool’ length mirrors.

    3. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      Well folks, the games up…

      They’ve figured out how to alter Subsea geology to make all the oil move to England

      Except that its already in England because we are apparetnly just the north bit of England

      They’ve found us out as being 90% unemployed benefit scroungers

      They’ve noted that us “Nasty, wee nationalist scrounging jocks” are bitter

      They’ve worked out they can deport all us scots… just like those other europeans that come over HERE… even that Jock Liam Neeson will be removed!

      They’ve even decided to set up a de-militarised zone at hadrians wall just to ensure bagpipes dont get within 100 miles of their population… although can meander around in the 1st 100 miles of northern england

      Theyve figured out that Cameron is in fact scottish and as such we are actually responsible for voting in the Tories with our 1 Tory MP.

      The UNION really will be better off with only 1 party to the Union agreeing to work with themselves…

      BASICALLY, THE JIG IS UP!!!

      We were wrong to look at EEA freedom of trade, movement and finance

      We were wrong to look at the non-existent border controls between UK and ROI

      International Maritime Border conventions and basic geology can obviously not be counted on to keep the Oil in scotlands waters.

      The higher taxes we pay are all illusionary

      The jobs we do are paid for in “Dodgy Scotch notes” that are apparently not legal tender, ergo we have all been sponging off England.

      I better get back to preparing the family gruel and practicing doffing my cap!

    4. Castle Rock says:

      Be honest now, you’ve taken all those quotes out of a Viz book haven’t you.
       
      Surely?

    5. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      Unfortunately not…

      Just click on each name as they are hyperlinked to the actual comments

    6. Steven of Songnam says:

      Your cap, Scott? Once our terrible country has separated from England, we’ll be reduced to eating non-vital clothing and poisonous berries within minutes. And with Big Wee Eck as our Dear Dictator, we’ll only be allowed to procreate once a year, to make sure none of us are doing it with English women.
      For you some of you, this will mean much less “relations”. For me, much much more! #simpsonsdidit
       
      (Unfortunately, in this day and age it is necessary for me to note that I’m joking. Interesting times.)

    7. Bill C says:

      I have no time for this sort of racist muck, whether it is from English morons or Scottish morons. The level of ignorance diplayed in these comments is in itself worrying. Unfortunately I think there can be little doubt that views such as these will increase in intensity over the next couple of years. It is vital therefore, as a number of posters on this site have already said, that the YES campaign get as much information into every Scottish household as humanly possible. Many Scots (not only the morons) are very ignorant of the facts  and are indeed brainwashed into believing that we really are too wee, too stupid and too poor to govern ourselves.  Now that the process on the Referendum seems to be drawing to a close, it is time to get the facts on the benefits of independence out to the general public in Scotland.

    8. Adrian B says:

      Very well put together Rev. Just one little point, it might be worth taking screen shots of these comments – if you haven’t already done so –  before the BBC wipe all comments as they did a couple of weeks ago.

    9. At first I thought you had quoted only the most extreme comments, but when I had a look at the actual list of comments, I realised they’re really quite typical.
      It’s funny — I had assumed the BBC had turned off the comments on most Scottish articles because they wanted to shut out the “cybernats”, but I’m starting to think they’re actually trying to protect the Scots against the wrath of the English. 

    10. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      Attitudes like this have a tendency to backfire on a Scottish Psyche…

      Thats what happened to me.

      I wasnt particularly bothered but once the SNP had the opportunity to put forward a referendum I took an interest.

      It was teh attitudes and comments like this that enraged me enough to get me out looking through government figures to find the truth so that if I came across one of these slurs against the scottish people I could respond with facts and figures.

      In the end it converted me from a soft yes (based more on faith in my country) to a hard yes, based on knowledge of the vast benefits to society that independence will offer.

      If comments like these get even one more person to look at the real figures than they scare into sumbissin then they are very welcome.

      Sometimes it takes a swift spiritual kick to the head to get people thinking and the dross in these comments may well cause that.

    11. pa_broon says:

      There was also a comment floating around that said the writer (using the word losely) couldn’t detect any anti-Scottish sentiment yet resentment against the English abounded.

      I think the prize should go to Assynt for suggesting that the oil be moved into English waters and even if Scotland gained independence, the seabed that surrounds us will still belong to the queen.

      Well done, I suppose the clue is in the name though.

    12. Steven of Songnam says:

      @Adrian B
      That’s a good point, though as Bill C said, it is unfortunately likely that there will be no shortage of this kind of thing in the future, whether from Scots or English or Surinamese or Eritreans or whoever. And it is deeply distressing
      You can really very strongly disagree with someone, and you would have every right to voice your opinion, but there’s a lack of civility about this debate. And unionist politicians are encouraging the nastiness with their personal attacks and insistence on weasel words that muddy the waters.
      On the comical side though, it reminds me of kids thinking they’re super cool rebels by using swear words about teachers when they’re out on the playground.

    13. Training Day says:

      Great to see the literary oeuvre of Nigel Molesworth and Whizz for Atoms lives on in the comments – as any fule know.

      I particularly like the comment of ‘Alan’ – “I like the Scottish, don’t misundertand me”.  I’m only surprised he didn’t add ‘some of my best friends are Scottish’..

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      …followed by “So if we split, i will stand on hadrians wall, wave and shout:
      “Good riddance, and take the bagpipes with you.””

      Imagine if he DIDN’T like us!

    15. scottish_skier says:

      Just had my biannual meeting with my research sponsors from various oil companies. After the meeting was over, one guy, originally from Liverpool but recently moved to Houston, asked me if I was going to vote Yes.

      He was a Labour voter and appreciated reasonably well why Scotland wanted independence, although admitted he knew little about Scotland. He said he felt that the BBC/UK MSM were using ‘propaganda’ and not telling the truth about what was likely to happen. Very much the case I agreed.

    16. Steven of Songnam says:

      I don’t know Training Day, I think “I like the Scottish, don’t misunderstand me” is just a blatant re-tooling of “Now, I’m not racist, but…”. But, since we are Scottish and we have a minor disagreement, we have to be enemies for life 🙁 You know, unless there are some English around.
      The good news is, it’s Unionist Math Time!
       
      I primarily relate to the United Kingdom and I wish it to remain a sovereign nation-state that is distinct and independent of the European Union = Jolly good ol’ patriotic Briton!
       
      I primarily relate to Scotland and I wish it to become a sovereign nation-state that is distinct and independent of the United Kingdom = You villainous Scotch rebel, don’t you understand that is is always better to be a part of something bigger?! You’d have to be a vile loon not to always believe that!
       
      I would like to now categorically state that I do not believe that all non-European Federalists must by definition be racially prejudiced against Belgians. That would be silly.

    17. YesYesYes says:

      I assume that Liam Neeson is mentioned because of his starring role in the film Rob Roy.
       
      Aren’t Scottish Labour’s British nationalist allies such charming people? After you’ve read through this lot, remember that Scottish Labour has other allies to show us, those nice chaps from the Orange Order, the BNP and the English Defence League, and let’s not forget their closest allies, the ‘acceptable’ face of British nationalism, the Tories.

    18. peter says:

      writing as someone who has just returned from a few days down in the SE of  England,  i was shocked at the level of “hatred” some spouted about alex salmond.
      the level of ignorance about Scotland’s financial standing within the UK,  was breath taking.  this was part through laziness of the people in question in not finding out the facts, however, if truth be told  (and i’m preaching to the knows) the MSM has much to answer for.
       
       

    19. Cuphook says:

      You mock, but do you realise how difficult it is to type with your knuckles?

      That the BBC allows such racist drivel says a lot about the BBC. They always make a point of highlighting commentable articles on independence to the English readers. I’ve no idea what they’re playing at as it only ever seems to attract the uninformed and the bigoted.

    20. Doug Daniel says:

      Stu, I’m shocked you don’t know get the Liam Neeson reference. After all, it’s every nationalist’s second favourite film (after Braveheart of course, which naturally I watch every evening before going to bed in my tartan pyjamas):

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Roy_(film) 

    21. scottish_skier says:

      From posting on a ‘Scottish Politics’ thread of a UK-wide forum (it’s for weather, because I like snow strangely, but has a section for politics etc for slow weather days) the only people who rant like the above BBC comments on the thread are rabid right-wing Tory/UKIP voters; rUK Lab and Lib Dem voters don’t and are instead are politely a little jealous we are able to vote for an alternative, with all mainly supportive of independence if that’s what Scots want.

      Not sure what the BBC hope to gain by opening up this topic for comments knowing full well what will be posted by some rather unpleasant people. 

    22. Steven of Songnam says:

      If anyone wants to balance out the quality of bon voyage comments and surprisingly ignorant ideas about women that have erupted from certain sectors recently, you may enjoy reading the satire in Amazon.com’s user reviews of the BIC Cristal For Her Ball Pen, straight from the era that Tories live in. Scots and women alike, they’ll believe what we tell ’em, dagnabbit.
      As an aside, I have an awesome little cousin who is English. She’s just the bee’s knees. If you think I have trouble with someone just because of their nationality, you’re from another planet. Which is also totally okay, it just explains why you wouldn’t necessarily understand me so well.

      Oh well, I’m pretty sure folks like this represent a pretty darn small segment of both Scottish and English society. For a’ that, and a’ that…

    23. YesYesYes says:

      @Doug Daniel,
       
      Now I think about it, if this chancer has actually seen the film, wouldn’t Brian Cox have been a more appropriate referent than Liam Neeson,? Anyway, Tim Roth stole the film IMHO.

    24. TYRAN says:

      BBC… isn’t that Savile’s channel? I wouldn’t put it past BBC writing these comments themselves. They lock down comments on the like of Blether With Brian, which AFAIK was civil stuff being posted. But always open up for the like of this crazed shite. They have previous on this.

    25. Jeannie says:

      Well, I have to say there’s nothing in these BBC comments that’s convincing me that we’re “Better Together”.  Own goal for the BBC?

    26. patronsaintofcats says:

      With all the comments about Hadrian’s Wall, I can’t work out if they’re really that unaware of  geography or they really hate the North of England.  Sure, we’ll take the border back to the 5th century if that’s really want they want 🙂
       

    27. Waldegaard says:

      Hilarious! The mind boggles what it’s going to be like in two years.

      Nice change of tack by the BBC on Scottish political stories.

      Before they closed regular comments down, Scottish political stories were virtually always reserved to the Scottish site only. This meant that there was always a strong pro-indy presence in the comments. This just wasn’t cricket.

      Now on the rare occasions they open a Scottish story up, they’ll launch them on the UK and Scottish sites simultaneously. This is the result. In an attempt to silence those ghastly ‘cybernats’ they’ve given the little englanders/ johnny foreigner hating xenophobes a voice, broadcasting all over Scotland.

      I’m not sure how this will endear the Scots to the union, though. 

    28. Cuphook says:

      As someone who enjoys words I’m thrilled be the decision of so many bigots to use the lesser known spellings. I particularly like Gordon’s post ironic take on ‘fool’ when he makes this trenchant insight ‘Ah if only this was true, but as any fule know.’ 

    29. uilleam_beag says:

      You are a bigger man than I, Rev Stu. I made it through about four of those before I felt an overwhelming urge to bellygurglescream at the computer.

    30. MajorBloodnok says:

      @cuphook

      I share your anguish and disgust at Gordon’s sophistry.  However, “as any fule kno”, Gordon may have been attempting to quote Nigel Molesworth’s oft used phrase, but only got it half rite. 

    31. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      If English hatred is brewing then the MSM will no doubt be blamed. It’s not an opinion I would agree with, as you would have to be as thick as mince to believe the crap that newspapers print. 

      Rather I would blame a post Imperial/Empire mentality. Unfortunetely, some are still delusional to believe that England is still a super power. Hence their acceptance of  obscene   sums being spent of defence.  The MSM merely exploit their bogotry. Us jocks have been accepted  so far we’ve been good boys and girls.  Alex Salmond is hated by some, because he exposes the truth.  

    32. An Duine Gruamach says:

      I don’t have the stomach to read through the comments thread, but I think someone (? on another post on here) quoted one of them confidently declaring that we should start building new hospitals because post-independence all the current hospitals in Scotland will belong to England.  Obviously.  I wonder what they’re planning to do with them.

    33. Cuphook says:

      @MajorBloodnok

      I’ve never come across Nigel Molesworth before; I feel so unlearned. I might have seen a book cover before but I didn’t think to open it. More ‘fule’ me.  

      Round one to Gordon. I shall just have to console myself with the fact that I’m not a cock.  

    34. James Morton says:

      I’ve seen this garbage so many times in various forms – frankly it beggars belief – but it is what happens when you keep pedalling myths about how Scotland is a subsidy junkie – yes I’m looking at you Scottish Conservatives. They are an utter disgrace to have sold such lies and then have the audacity to come looking for votes. Labour and regressed into some strange creature that is hideous to gaze upon. I hole them in the same contempt I usually save for the Tories. Lib-dems are idiots and Ukip? Fiscally illiterate fools who have done more to isolate the UK in Europe that any Tory sceptic could have dreamt possible.

      Two more years of the same old same old – people will be watching – even those in the no camp will start pausing for thought. I really do think we will win. 

    35. EmbraBoffin says:

      Just reading SneekyBoy’s post and this mirror’s my experience almost exactly. I was not fully convinced by Indy but was leaning towards it, but probably could have been persuaded against it with a little effort. Taking a greater interest in the politics I began reading more of the guff on some news sites (notably the Guardian) and it forced me to look at the situation again and review the facts. I got quite annoyed at the continual accusations and distortions made against the scrounging Scots. Have to say SneekyBoys detailed posts were excellent in this regard.
      Within a couple of weeks I had joined the SNP and started getting involved. I’m now an active member; been leafleting, canvassing at the council elections and pestering my family and friends.
      I’m sure we’re not the only two folk in this bracket – reasonable people who have been pushed into being ‘hard’ Yes voters by the nonsense posters of drivel.
      Best recruiting tool ever
       

    36. MajorBloodnok says:

      @cuphook

      To be honest I only know Molesworth from occasional references in Private Eye.  St Tinian’s, on the other hand, is a long time favourite – although it depends if you think Alastair Sim looks convincing in drag.

    37. Cuphook says:

      I did wonder.

      I recommend Alastair Sim in ‘The Green Man’ where he plays a horologist and undercover assassin whose downfall is brought about by a door-to-door vacuum salesman (George Cole) who represents the Little Wizard of the Carpet.

    38. Cuphook says:

      And, of course, I just realised the importance of your icon.

    39. MajorBloodnok says:

      Yes, I’ve got a copy of the Green Man, but not watched it (yet).  My favourite Alastair Sim film is School for Scoundrels, but then I am a Terry-Thomas fan as you’ve realised (quick edit there).  And I’ve just found out that the very charming Janette Scott is Thora Hird’s daughter (OMG!), ah the wonders of Wiki.

    40. Cuphook says:

      Watched School for Scoundrels the other week and was particularly impressed by Ian Carmicheal’s car. I guess that after a while icons lose impressionable significance.

      The wonders of Wiki. I recently found out that Woody Harrleson’s dad was an assassin who, when captured, admitted to a part in the Kennedy hit.

      I always wanted to see Thora Hird advertise sex aids for senior citizens – like a hydraulic lift that could lower a pensioner onto their partner.  
       

    41. Christian Wright says:

      I know I shouldn’t be surprised by this – I witness more extreme ignorance and bigotry exhibited daily by the lower primates over at the telegraph, and I’ve previously surveyed BBC blogs in just this fashion – yet it is depressing to see such brutal hatred arrayed herein.

       Who in their right mind would willingly share their country with such malignancies? These folks and that corrupting narrative are as a giant suppurating boil on the arse of the British body politic. Its stench fills the nostrils and its shadow darkens my day.

      Their behaviors  are surely presenting symptoms evincing an intractable clinical illness. The corruption of decency wrought by some soul-eating bacillus. No human would CHOOSE to be like this – surely?

      Surely?

       

    42. Domhnall Dods says:

      feel the love eh?

    43. MajorBloodnok says:

      That’s what Thora Hird said.

    44. MajorBloodnok says:

      Right, back on topic.  Did anyone see Ian Bell’s piece in the Herald?  Corruscating it was, corruscating.

    45. Gaavster says:

      Has anyone else noticed the incapability of the majority of ‘posters’ on that, and other similar BBC threads, to spell the word independence?

      I know we all make typos, and all of us cant spell properly, but the frequency that it occurs over there is uncanny…

      Funnily enough, their understanding of the concept and the machinations of independence would be comical, if it was not so sad…

      In all seriousness, where do they come up some of the shite they spout?

      It goes beyond what many in the MSM would even lower themselves to publish….. 

    46. Jeannie says:

      @Major Bloodnok:
       
      Major!  Ding dong!

    47. Jeannie says:

      I noticed an article in Bella Caledonia which suggested that Ruth Davidson’s coat might be on a shoogly nail following her recent outpourings and I thought to myself – first they have Annabelle who looks like a man trying to look like a woman, then they have Ruth, who looks like a woman trying to look like a man – what on earth will the Scottish Tories come up with next?

    48. zedeeyen says:

      I think it’s more charitable to read these sorts of comments as the impotent rage of a jilted, genuinely heartbroken lover. They’re lashing out because they feel personally rejected.

      Try humming Gloria Gaynor’s I Will Survive while you read them, they make much more sense.

      “OK now go, walk out the door
      Don’t turn around now, ‘cos you’re not welcome any more…”

    49. Paul says:

      Crazy opinions in a comments section.  How bizarre.  But surely there must have been at least *some* that were actually by nice, reasonable people?

    50. MajorBloodnok says:

      @Jeannie

      Well, they can’t have Thora Hird, she perished in a tragic stairmaster accident.

    51. Angus McLellan says:

      You’re bloody ungrateful so-and-sos. The lesson of history is that we should welcome these comments.
      If anyone can remember that far back, three days before the 1995 Quebec referendum vote the No campaign held a huge rally in Montreal. A lot of the speeches and surrounding spin were intended to convince the Quebecois(es) that Canada loved them and that they shouldn’t go. Pundits reckon it made enough difference to turn a narrow Yes into a narrow No. These kind of messages don’t (and won’t) have quite the same effect as the Unity Rally, quite the opposite really. Why worry?
       

    52. Cuphook says:

       
      @Jeannie

      I don’t think that people’s looks matter when it comes to politics. You’re descending to the level of the Unionists who rail against independence because Alex Salmond is fat. Annabelle and Ruth are just the people that they are. It’s their policies which disgust me.

      You have made me wonder though – have I ever found a politician attractive? I don’t think that I have.
       

    53. ScottyC1314 says:

      Open season on the BBC on us Scots again it seems. One can only imagine what their rules on moderation are. Clearly doesn’t include deleting comments that insult their own customers. If these contributions reflect wide scale English opinion then heaven help us if there is a NO vote in 2014. Happy for the neanderthals to keep it up in the meantime though as it should result in a few more Scots turning to Indy.

    54. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You have made me wonder though – have I ever found a politician attractive? I don’t think that I have.”

      There are definitely some foxy types in the last parliament’s SNP intake, and I have to guiltily confess I wouldn’t kick Pauline McNeill out of bed on a cold night either (unless she started talking about slashing the welfare budget).

    55. Muttley79 says:

      I am getting a little concerned with some of the bile from the unionist side.  The hatred of the SNP from the likes of Lamont  fairly obvious.  Hopefully it is just rhetoric but they are really giving Salmond some amount of abuse at the moment.  All the dictator stuff is poisonous and self-defeating.  I hope they realize soon they have a public responsibility not to let the rhetoric get out of hand. 

    56. Jeannie says:

      @ Major Bloodnok
      Not the old “Stairlift to Heaven” joke!

    57. Jeannie says:

      @ Rev Stu
       
      OK, I’ll confess to a slight fluttering of the heart watching Martin Sheen as President Bartlett in “The West Wing”, especially in the scene, for anyone who saw it, when he announces he’s running for re-election and the background music is Dire Strait’s Brothers in Arms.  Be still my beating heart!

    58. Jeannie says:

      @ cuphook
      Cuphook, I consider myself well and truly skelpt for that comment. You’re quite right.

    59. MajorBloodnok says:

      @ Rev Stu

      Yulia Tymoshenko?

      I don’t know much about her politics though.  Probably just as well.

    60. Franklin says:

      I am touched. I feel so loved. Thank you BBC and knuckle dragging unionist element. The scales have been lifted from my eyes. Gone from strong yes to certain no with one BBC storyy.

    61. Having read some of the comments from the South,I wonder why they even bother. There is nothing constructive in any of their posts,personal insults to our First Minister,and to all things Scottish,I think jealousy is the root.
      I woke up to independence when I was almost 15,I walked from East Kilbride to Hamilton to help hand out leaflets,and at  that time it was electric,I was just one of several who went down mostly just for “a laugh” or maybe we had the independence idea already fermenting.Now I’m 60 and more determined than ever,I cant see any reason why some folk are still,wishing to remain in this union unless they are still fooled by Westminster.I never was I always thought the Labour party used the working man to lift themselves to the middle classes,then looked down on us.
      I also think that there wont be a Scotland in less than 60 years unless we seize our independence now.

    62. Jeannie says:

      If I were a man, I also might fancy the Danish Prime Minister in Borgen.  With real-life politicians, though, I can’t think of a single one I think is attractive. That might not be to do with the political class, mind you, it could be that we’re just an unattractive lot on the whole in the UK?

    63. Christian Wright says:

      Cuphook says “. .  Alex Salmond is fat.”

      Alex Salmond  is NOT fat . . . he’s portly.
      October 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    64. Jeannie says:

      My mother informs me that Kenny McAskill was considered a heartbreaker in his day.

    65. Cuphook says:

      @Rev

      With her being a Labour type could you expect something for nothing?

      I think I’ll pass on the opportunity to see our elected representatives in a new light. It would be unfair to judge them even harsher than I do at present.

      @Jeannie

      Didn’t really mean to skelp you – but I am right. Judging people by their looks just gets into unnecessary territory. Of course ‘I’m put together beautifully’ and receive nothing but compliments.
       

    66. Christian Wright says:

      Jenny Marra 

    67. Jeannie says:

      @cuphook
      Yes, I’m quite gorgeous too.  That’s probably why we’re not politicians.

    68. Castle Rock says:

      Christian Wright:

      Know what you mean but beauty comes from within – I’ve listen to some of her speeches and she’s bitter to the core.
       
      Got to admit though that Pauline McNeill always had potential.

    69. tartanfever says:

      What’s happening here ? I have taken a wrong turn and ended up on a politico-dating site ?

      Oh.now, there’s a game. Rev Stu, should play Cilla Black and do a ‘Blind Date for Politicians ‘ ?

      How about Paddington Mundell’s chat up line to Johann Lamont – ‘I may not be Fred Flintstone but I could certainly make your bedrock’ 

      I’ve gone too far, that image will stay with me for days….

    70. Steven of Songnam says:

      @Jeannie
       
      Earlier this year, Canadian actress Jewel Staite (Firefly, Stargate Atlantis, LA Complex) called me “very cute” and hugged me. Eh, I didn’t want to be a politician anyway 😀
       
      For serious though, as someone who prefers competence to prettiness in his politicians, I roll my eyes every time one of ’em makes a jab at Salmond. None of you folks were elected because your 18 year old constituents think you’re “totes hawt” or whatever the kids say these days.

    71. Cuphook says:

      @Jeannie

      I’m sure that’s it.

      It just crossed my mind that there hasn’t been a sex scandal at Hollyrood. There was the MSP caught having sex in the chamber but I can’t remember if that made the news. Are our politicians too ugly or are they straitlaced?      

    72. Derick says:

      OK, I know it’s weird but Fifi La Bonbon aka Kezia Dugdale (a wonderfully Gromitish name – Cheeeese), despite her mental nature, and vile opinions, cries out to be loved and saved (from herself mostly).  I’ll get the toothbrush and dettol now. 
      Don’t forget the fabulous, admirable, bright and beeble beeble beeble redhead SNP contingent!!! sorry. OK, not sorry.
      Hey c’mon – still no as mad as Ian Smartipants!
      BBC agenda is so transparent – the ‘editor’s picks’ in particular are doozies.
       
       
       

    73. Jeannie says:

      @stephen of songnam –
      Jewel, eh?  My sons will be so jealous!
       
      @cuphook
      Somebody had sex in the chamber?????  On their own or with somebody else? Just askin

    74. H Scott says:

      And those are the comments they allowed.  

    75. H Scott says:

      And thought acceptable.

    76. Steven of Songnam says:

      @ Jeannie
      Jewel was lovely, though when I met her you could best describe my physical and mental status as ‘near-zombie’. It had been a loooong day. She was very sweet, though.
       
      @cuphook
      I also would like to know what person(s) were involved in the chamber-sex. I’m imagining a forbidden love story, one SNP and one Labour, star-crossed lovers whose stand against their parties was reminiscent of, well, it’s Romeo and Juliet, basically. Okay I am totally writing that short story.

    77. Cuphook says:

      I’m thinking that it did make a couple of column inches (no pun intended) but you had to read between the lines. A security guard caught them. It was the love that cannot speak its name – his mouth was full at the time. I got the whole story from a friend of his, who was an acquaintance of mine, in a club one night. God, that was a shit club. Good year though.
         
       

    78. Bill C says:

      As I said earlier, I think this this is only the start of the bile from the knucklegraggers who are encouraged in their racist outpourings by politicians, some of them so called Scots (I am ashamed to say), who should know better. If for example, Ruth Davidson accused an ethnic minority of being scroungers, she would be pilloried and rightly so. Politicians play with fire when they start accusing certain groups of people of being parasites.  We only need to remember what happened in Nazi Germany; when politicians look for scapegoats a firestorm can ensue.
      However, it was something which Cuphook and Scottish Skier alluded to which has got me thinking.  What is the BBC up to in allowing such racist filth to be posted on its website.  It is almost as if the BBC is trying to encourage a mob mentality when it allows such blatantly anti-Scottish sentiment. Is the BBC deliberately trying to stir up anti-Scottish sentiment south of the border? 
      For a supposed national broadcaster to allow its website to be inhabited by racist morons seem to me to be the height of irresponsibilty. Or am I just being too sensitve? 

    79. Steven of Songnam says:

      @Cuphook
       
      Hmmm, I prefer my version better. Sure it might not have happened the way I would have liked it to, but if the Scottish media has taught me anything it’s that that doesn’t matter. 😀

    80. Cuphook says:

      If nobody else remembers anything to do with that then it didn’t happen. I’m sure there was a thing in the paper though.

    81. douglas clark says:

      I am quite fond of Jennie Marra. She asks intelligent questions and seems to have interesting ideas. And she appears to not have any opinion, whatsoever, on independence. That would be an ‘interesting’ leader of an opposition, post a victory in 2014.

    82. Steven of Songnam says:

      @Cuphook
      I’m happy to take your word for it. I guess it’s just something we don’t do half as well as the USA. Shame really, seems like the kind of thing our fish n’ chips wrappers would love
       
      @Bill C
      I think the BBC can probably get away with “we don’t take responsibility for any of the comments on our website” blah blah blah, despite being heavily moderated. It really is ridiculous. I wonder, did they really ask the internet to say nice things in the expectation that it couldn’t possible backfire? Very odd.

    83. Jeannie says:

      @cuphook
      Jeezo. Wonder who got to de-brief the security guard? (so to speak)

    84. Jeannie says:

      @bill c
      Just had a look at the BBC moderation policy and I would say that many of the posts did breach the policy but were still allowed.  I wonder why?

    85. Bill C says:

      @Steven of Songnam, I think the BBC knows exactly what it’s doing. Fueling the fire and looking for an anti-Scottish backlash, so as to create cross border tensions and discredit the YES campaign.

    86. Cuphook says:

      This has got to be the worst night on Wings. Judging women and spreading gossip. We shall look back on it tomorrow with regret.

      I do remember reading it in the paper. I was sitting on the floor. It would have been the Sunday Herald about 2004/2005 – definitely before Destination Calabria was on import as we’d changed clubs by then. I’m now thinking my acquaintance was the MSPs ex or something before he was an MSP. Someone else has to remember it.
       
      I have the curse of an amateur photographic memory. Sometimes my thumb is over the lens
       
       

    87. Silverytay says:

      I would not worry to much about some of the comment from our friends in the south .
      I see them as a win , win for the yes camp .
      Some of the racist bile should drive a lot of the undecided into the yes camp and if the likes of the mail and b.b.b.c keep up their anti Scot,s tirade it should lead to an increase in the demand for English Independence . Job done either way . 

    88. Jeannie says:

      Tell you what though, guys.  I hear what you’re saying about Jenny Mara and Kezia Dugdale, etc., but for sheer charisma, I would suggest that Margo MacDonald in her prime could have given any of them a run for their money….and even now, though she’s older and not well, I think she’s still got that star quality.

    89. Adrian B says:

      Ireland, has today announced an oil find off the Cork coast. Have a look at the difference in the comments being made towards this story on the BBC website.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19889948

      Can we expect better treatment from our neighbours once we have gained our independence. I would like to think so. 

    90. Bill C says:

      @Silvertay

      I take your point, however when politicians play to racists in the gutter (I was going to say gallery, but that would be inaccurate)  and the national broadcaster gives them the oxygen of publicity, I fear that the debate on independence might degenerate into a racist slanging match or worse!

    91. Swello says:

      I first noticed the heavy anti-Scottish stuff on the BBC website in relation to Gordon Brown, and not Alex Salmond or the independence “debate”. I was no fan of Brown’s but was genuinely taken aback at the amount of bitterness displayed and the fact that the casual racism around the “subsidy junkie” myth at that time was allowed to go unchecked to the point that it became acceptable and ingrained. The fact the there was such a strong thread running through these comments that it was somehow “wrong” that a PM was from Scotland actually played a part in my becoming more receptive to independence. 
      My observation is that on this type of article, there is very little of the much vaunted “anti-english bile” or at least it is vastly outnumbered to the point it is difficult to find. Lastly I’ve always wondered what the criteria for “editor’s picks” is on these articles as some of the comments that end up with that prominence are pretty offensive at times. 

    92. Richie says:

      I got on to this blog quite late and I haven’t been through all the comments yet but this bit by Scott is a classic
      “They’ve even decided to set up a de-militarised zone at hadrians wall just to ensure bagpipes dont get within 100 miles of their population… although can meander around in the 1st 100 miles of northern england” 
      Well done Sneaky!
      Maybe we’ll get Berwick back after all.

      Otherwise I feel a bit saddened that our closest neighbours are talking about us like this just because of what a few bastard politicians and journalists have been saying to US for the last…um however many years.
      Right, time to enjoy the rest of the comments.
       

    93. Morag says:

      I used to think the young Robert Kilroy Silk was kinda cute.
       
      I need professional help.

    94. Arbor says:

      There was always soemthing of the stern yet sensual abour Annabel Goldie

    95. Jeannie says:

      @Morag
      No, I agree……he wasn’t bad till he went that funny orange colour

    96. Jeannie says:

      Aw No …. it’s started already!  John Mackay has just said that tomorrow Cameron will stress we need to mark the 100 years since the outbreak of WW1………..in 2014!

    97. Aplinal says:

      I always quite fancied the young Clinton (Hilary, not Bill!)  But it might just have been the ‘powerful woman’ influence.
      Time for bed, I think!

    98. Morag says:

      You know, RevStu, you really ought to find that one about all Scotland’s hospitals belonging to England after independence.  It was a keeper.

    99. Ron says:

      Sorry, folks, for me it has to be Rowenna Davis – Oh dear, better take another Enalapril!

    100. Aplinal says:

      @Jeannie
      I am sure we can do better.  How about 1814?
      “Star spangled banner” written; Formal end to transporting slaves (British – Dutch agreement); Stephenson’s first locomotive; London “Beer floods”; Congress of Vienna
      Or 1714
      Typewriter patented; Queen Anne sacks Haley; Ludwig von Hanover crowned King “George I”
      I’m sure there’s more.

    101. Jeannie says:

      @Aplinal
      Yes – Independence for Scotland…2014!

    102. Aplinal says:

      @Jeannie
      I’ll second that!!!!

    103. Richie says:

      Glad someone else mentioned Jenny Marra and Kezia Dugdale first. AWW they’re so cute! Jenny has lovely eyes, don’t you think?

      On a similar topic, and I don’t want to make anyone sick but it reminds me of a time I saw Lamont on TV, wearing a thin black top and I was almost sure I could see her nips through it. Yuk! I would’ve turned to dust if I could.

      1914.
      WTF?

    104. Catle Rock says:

      I guess it was the title of the thread (and the BBC) that started it all but I’m pretty impressed by:
       
      “…he wasn’t bad till he went that funny orange colour”
       
      How I wish I could have posted that.

    105. Bill C says:

      1914 -18 War. Another capitalist war where hundreds of thousands of young, Scots, English, Welsh and Irish lost their lives for nothing. Better Together no thanks!
      Not to mention the young  men of every nation which took part and who were slaughtered because the toffs of Europe had a disagreement. Remember 1914? Only with reverence and regret. 

    106. JMacks says:

      I’ve been lingering on the sidelines of this site for a while now – I’ll probably continue to linger as the articles and comments are of such a high caliber that I can never really add to what’s already been said, but I just wanted to back-up points made by SneekyBoy and EmbraBoffin early on.  My parents have always voted SNP and supported Scottish independence, so I guess i had a head start (not that it was shouted about in the household, but I was aware of their views), but I’m not one to follow blindly.  It wasn’t until the SNP won their majority that I started paying attention to news articles.  I started reading all the current stories, and was intrigued by the views of other folks – i had never discussed the issue with anyone, so had no idea what the consensus was, or the facts.  It was thanks to reading below the line and seeing such well informed comments – your Guardian comments caught my attention, Sneekyboy – in contrast to the strongly opinionated, hate-filled, and clearly false statements that some were spouting that made me think there was something in it.  The comments quoted in the article are a blessing.  The informed views shine through, and such senseless comments provide such stark contrast that anyone in any way inquisitive will see the light.   

    107. John says:

      Sorry to be o/t.
      I’ve just heard on the news that David Cameron is planning celebrations of the anniversary of the start of the First World War in 2014. Apart from the fact that I have never heard of anyone celebrating the beginning of a war, somebody should tell him that more than 27% of all Scots soldiers who fought in that war were killed. This is against around 10% of all other British troops. Apparently they needed to have shock troops to counter the German storm troopers at the time. What a clever wheeze. What an upper class twit.

    108. Craig P says:

      As for who had sex in the chamber. It  was almost certainly a Lib Dem with one of his male staff. I have no proof for this scurrilous accusation but it is the sort of thing a Lib Dem would do. 
       
      Anyway, while we are in puerile mood, Jenny Marra is the connoisseur’s choice. 

    109. Craig P says:

      Back on topic… if there was Internet in the 1980s I would not be surprised if the same level of hatred was being displayed in the other direction, due to Thatcherism. Scottish independence kills a basic assumption about English identity, that they ‘own’ the rest of Britain, no wonder some are hurting. 
       
      It will all be over by 2014. In the meantime there is no harm in politely pointing out, wherever possible, the international nature of the bank bailouts (RBS got billions from US for its US operations, the entire debt would not have fallen on indy Scotland), the latest GERS figures (Scotland 8.6% population, 9.3% expenditure, 9.6% income), the inadequacies of GERS (doesn’t take into account whisky, Scottish taxes of UK firms, etc – like having an English equivalent but not counting revenues from the City of London), and the McCrone report. Then ask them why they haven’t already been informed of these things by the media. 
       
      And remember, most of these people raging into the electronic ether won’t have a vote, it is only the undecided residents of Scotland who need to know this stuff. 

    110. Ray says:

      There’s some good science fiction to be written about a nation who can “move” all oil and gas from one place to another! In a similar vein I’ve just compiled another list of stupid comments on Twitter, trying to get some much-needed answers to the burning questions. If the BBC allowed comments on all stories and moderated (heh!) as it does now it would just be an extension of Twitter really. http://raymcrobbie.com/2012/10/11/some-questions/ 

      Keep up the good work here! WoS is now the first place I visit in the morning. After the bathroom, of course.

    111. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      @JMacks – Firstly, Welcome to the site. Comments are always welcome so please feel free to post again.

      Secondly, thanks for the compliments. I only comment on the Guardian occassionally now as they have figured out that publishing articles at set points of the day led to us nats getting at the comments threads first.

      These days the articles are few and far between and posted at random times. If I catch one early on enough, I contribute.

      In the meantime however there are others who watch the Guardian like a hawk and get in their swiftly to counter obvious ATL Trolling (Like the latest one on Scotlands Oil undermining Scottish CO2 reduction targets in an Independent Scotland)

    112. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      “WoS is now the first place I visit in the morning. After the bathroom, of course”

      Get yourself a WIFI enabled laptop / I-pad and take it with you to that bathroom… you part-timer

    113. scottish_skier says:

      Not only Scotland….

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19904438
      Assembly presiding officer warns about media ‘deficit’
      A lack of media coverage about the national assembly has created a “democratic deficit” in Wales, the institution’s presiding officer says….
      …Mrs Butler is expected to cite recent UK government reforms of the NHS in England when she speaks at an event in Cardiff Bay on Thursday.
      She is expected to say it is the most “acute example” of a story that only applies to England, but is reported as if it applies to the whole of the UK.

    114. Aplinal says:

      @Erchie
       
      WOW! Thanks
       
      😉

    115. Alasdair Frew-Bell says:

      Comments like these are more representative of the “Herrenvolkisch” theme permeating the pro-Union case. Essentially, the non-English are perceived as venal, untrustworthy, fawning, backstabbing freeloaders whom without the gracious favour of British/English largesse would regress to their instinctive barbarism. Patently neo-colonial attitudes revelatory of how thin is the veneer of “British civilization”. The rise of UKIP and the aggressive little Englander nationalism it embodies will encourage more of this. Independentist politicians should be prepared to meet this head on and give no quarter. The sun has set on their empire, ours just breaks the horizon. We have nothing to lose but the rusty fetters of moribund Britannia. 

    116. Rodger says:

      I want to know which Bar Alan went into and got 5 hours of abuse! just to make sure i don’t take my wife in (since she is English and we have been living in Leith in Edinburgh for the last 12 years and no one has ever even mentioned the fact she is English)

    117. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The gathered comments help illuminate a certain mind-set, but the expression is so crude and inept that we could easily be fooled into thinking the ‘attitude’ is equally primitive. Ain’t necessarily so – consider the following:
      Peter Kravitz, from his introduction to the Picador Book of Contemporary Scottish Fiction, 1996 -“While travelling around Scotland in 1995, the journalist George Rosie had a chance meeting with a senior English civil servant from Whitehall. As they sat in a hotel overlooking Ben Loyal and the hills of Sutherland, Rosie asked him why English governments have been so unwilling to hand Scotland back to the Scots. The official ticked the reasons off on his fingers: ‘One, oil. Two, gas. Three, fish. Four, water. Five, land. The oil and gas are self-explanatory, even now. Fish might not mean much to the British but it is a superb bargaining counter in Europe. Water will be important one day, I suspect. And as for all this (gesturing to the hills) well, this is our, how shall I say it, breathing space. That bit of elbow room that every country should have.’”

      Racist, illiterate bile from Mr and Mrs Angry is one thing, but wouldn’t it be fascinating to locate some ‘official’ characters of the sort encountered by Rosie, and have them explain what makes them feel entitled to regard someone else’s home as nothing more than their personal playground?

    118. muttley79 says:

      Yes Ian that unfortunately is the real British government view of Scotland.  The colonialist/imperialist viewpoint, where Scotland is a possession of the British state, a consolation for the end of the empire.  Shades of Lebensraum from the words ‘breathing space.’…

    119. Cath says:

      “I’m sure we’re not the only two folk in this bracket – reasonable people who have been pushed into being ‘hard’ Yes voters by the nonsense posters of drivel. Best recruiting tool ever”

      I’m in that camp too. I was more of a devo-max, full fiscal autonomy type last year but debating the facts or issues – however reasonably and politely – constantly attracted abuse, accusations of anti-Englishness (I’m half English, and quite like my mother to be honest) and being called a “cybernat”. The abuse was coming not just from idiot knuckle-draggers on the internet but from politicians as well who appeared to be abusing anyone who voted SNP.

      I joined the SNP earlier this year, with Cameron’s anti-Scottish speech being the final straw – I know I’m not the only one there as membership rose by about 1000 that week.   

      For me, the way the UK state and government handle this debate and referendum will be the measure of exactly what the Britain is really like and so far the evidence is far worse, and darker than I feared. If they are willing to actively stoke up these kind of hatreds, and play on existing fault lines in Scotland, such as sectarianism, that is the sign of a state that is far from democratic and would prefer to see bloodshed and hatred than a peaceful, positive transition to a new UK.

      The alternative would be to accept that change is going to happen and the best thing for Britain – for England, Scotland and the rest – is to allow a high quality debate, as free as possible from bigotry and nastiness, and look at how we can all best move forward positively. If the British state isn’t willing to do that, as the best course for all it’s people, but prefers that former option, what last respect and hope I had Britain was a decent country will be gone forever. And I truly fear for Scotland in the event of either a no or yes vote if Westminster and the British state really are like that.

    120. Luigi says:

      John O/T:
      If the tories go ahead with another union jack fest, on the 100th anniversary of WW1 in 2014, it will be the first time in history that the start of a war is celebrated. A particularly appalling war at that. By all mean, celebrate the end of a brutal war, but the beginning? Sheer desperation.

    121. muttley79 says:

      Good post Cath.  A lot of Scottish people believe that if you support the SNP or independence then you are anti-English, separatists etc.  The truth is that our dispute is with Westminster over holding important powers, such as welfare, financial powers, Trident over Scotland and not with English people.   The irony of the Union and the British state was that politically, Scotland and England could not exist.  With our devolved parliament, Scotland does exist again politically.  However, England does not officially exist politically and the West Lothian Question remains unresolved.

    122. Doug says:

      I further concur with the ‘hardening attitude’ theme.  I have always been sympathetic to independence and felt we could easily do well, but the reportage prior to the 2011 election and nonsense spouted therein (never mind the comments) started me looking deeper into the stats and into myself.  Once the full extent of the figures and the wool-pulling became clear, there was no going back.

      However, at no point did I question my instinctive liking for the English (people, not Westminster lot).  One thing I do note is, working with a fair few English from North and South, that the Northerners are much more sympathetic to indy and that mostly the Southerners have swallowed the tripe whole and believe the ‘evil Salmond’/’subsidy’ etc and get v angry when the topic comes up.

    123. bob says:

      wel well just look at all thses ignorant people making comments on a subject they know nothing about Scotland has subsidised  england for years look up the english goverments own figures, we in Scotland see england as an arrogant nation of thugs who have robbed Scotland blind for years and the soon we are rid you the better Here is a rather hefty an not yet complete list of reasons why the UK (British establishment and Westminster) want Scotland to remain in the Union :
       
      .
      1. They will lose 8.4% of UK population
      .
      2. They will lose roughly 10% GDP and 2 of the top 4 UK manufactucting exports (OIL AND WHISKY)
      .
      3. They will lose roughly 33% of total land mass
      .
       
       

      4. They will lose hugely in international importance, and the UK state will no longer exist .
      5. They will lose their permanent Security Council seat in the UN
      .
      6. They will lose seats in the EU and Scotland will gain those + others EU seats
      .
      7. They will lose part of their EU rebate since the Scottish fishing industry will no longer be simply given to Europe in exchange for that rebate
      .
      8. They will lose Sterling being backed by Scottish oil unless they choose to work with Scotland bein in the £ zone
      .
      9. They will drop even further and quicker down the list of largest economies
      .
      10. They will lose a nuclear dumping site
      .
      11. They will lose the base for all the nuclear weapons in the UK
      .
      12. They will lose 25% of the potential renewables resources in the EU
      . 13. They will lose 8.4% of all UK assets
       
      .

    124. bertiebrew says:

      Anyone else notice the chronic abuse of the ENGLISH language by most of the ENGLISH commentators? It seems that the ENGLISH should concentrate more on teaching the ENGLISH population how to write ENGLISH. 

    125. Cernunnos says:

      As an englishman living and working in Scotland it saddens and shames me to read the ignorant, ill-informed, racist bigotry that some of my countrymen (and presumably women) have to say on the subject of Scottish independence, and serves to remind me why we moved here all those years ago.

      It will give me great pleasure to vote YES in 2014, and soon thereafter to apply for Scottish nationality.

    126. Krafty Kris says:

      I’m not sure I approve of highlighting comments from delusional nasty unionists.
      It is what unionists and the media do to Nats, they pick the worst people/comments and then stereotype all nationalists.

      There are people North and South of the border that I will never get on with, some of the unionist comments on the BBC were nice enough, some hadn’t done a lot of research or didn’t have a strong opinion but wished us well whatever we decided.
      I think it is divisive and stokes anti-English sentiment focusing on the horrible unionist comments.

      An example of one I liked:

      @689.Fred Bloggs – It’s Labour that should be (and are) terrified of independence

      As a Socialist I am never terrified of democracy in action. If losing Scotland means saving several million people from the tory party forever I would take the hit.

      What it would do is change the face of English politics!

    127. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “What it would do is change the face of English politics!”

      Not directly it wouldn’t:

      http://wingsland.podgamer.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

      England is perfectly capable of electing a Labour government without Scotland. The only way an independent Scotland might change the face of English politics is by setting an example proving that social-democratic policies are still a viable alternative to the neo-Tory consensus adopted by UK Labour.

    128. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      @Cernunnos

      “As an englishman living and working in Scotland it saddens and shames me to read the ignorant, ill-informed, racist bigotry that some of my countrymen (and presumably women) have to say”

      It works both ways. Bigotry is a scourge that needs stamped on and thankfully it is better in Scotland now than in decades past. Perhaps having our own parliament and ability to have a voice has made us more open. But I concur that it saddens and shames me when my countrymen do likewise… even when not as openly hostile as the comments seen in the article above. 

    129. Krafty Kris says:

      Well maybe he/she meant Scottish independence would indirectly affect English politics, as you say if we started to run our country with better policies then I doubt people would accept the status quo in England/rUK.
       
      This is slightly off my point though, my point was not how well informed these unionists were, more that there are clear examples of nice people in the comments section and you’re selection is extremely skewed. I can’t remember if you have posted on this before but I’d be willing to wager that you had highlighted how the media &/or politicians have selectively chosen the worst comments from nationalists to make their point.

    130. Alasdair Frew-Bell says:

      There is something about Scots that gets the English back up. In the 18 century and into the early nineteenth we were ridiculed by the writers and cartoonists of the day as poor, sexually predatory, untrustworthy. It wasn’t until George IV covered himself in tartan and Scott began his romantic Scotland, Celtic twilight mythmaking that Scots, provided they were prepared fight and die for the Imperium and didn’t baulk at the terms English and England being affixed to their ex nationality and state, were accepted. Now that we are getting “uppity” we can expect more verbal excoriation and evisceration à la Wallace in all sections of our wonderfully balanced British media. Bring it on! 

    131. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Nice to see that the sales figures for the Daily Mail are still going through the roof…..NOT!
       
      The editor of this particularly nasty anti Scottish  ENGLISH rag must be over the moon that so many people are commenting on this BBC article using information quite clearly gleaned from the Daily Mail. I love the idea that we Scots who are intent on voting YES in 2014 are ALL anti English. Reading the comments that Stu has linked to I’d say that the ALL the unionist English are anti Scottish as well. (just using reverse Daily Mail logic on this.)

    132. Jeannie says:

      http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/tweed.html
      “Both Sides The Tweed” – a brilliant song by Dick Gaughan (though Karen Matheson sings it better).  The words of this song sum up how I feel about this issue.  I’ve nothing against the English and I wish them well.  I just want to run my own affairs because I believe we can provide a better future for our children that way.  Most of us would die for our kids – so I’ve no reason to believe that parents in an independent Scotland will not do their utmost to make it work for them.
       
       
       

    133. Melanie McKellar says:

      deary, deary me! How embarrassing is this for the BBC? How embarassing is this to the Better Together mob ? So much for unity and common cultures! The Union is well dead! BRING IT ON!

    134. Jeannie says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIX5QYsIsxw
      Karen Matheson version ( I hope)

    135. Jeannie says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pkCiSQjkDo&feature=endscreen&NR=1
      Dick Gaughan version – also superb, but I just thought, from previous comments on this thread that some of you might enjoy looking at Karen.

    136. Adrian B says:

      You should here the rubbish on BBC Parliament  (Freeview CH81) at the moment. Lord Maclennan of Rogart – Liberal Democrat – Someone should put him back in his box – he is only concerned with the House of Lords, ahhh the problems that these pesky Scots throw up are all beyond his understanding. All this change is causing him unrest. It’s not how things should be done you know. 

    137. bob says:

      REASONS WHY SCOTLAND IS BETTER OFF OUT OF THE UNION

      By Elliott Steven in ARGUMENTS FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE — SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE LIBRARY (Files)

      A LIST OF GAINS SCOTLAND WILL (LIKE ALL ANY OTHER NATION) ENJOY WITH INDEPENDENCE by PISTON BROKE
       
      ECONOMY:
      1. We currently generate 9.6% of UK tax revenue wealth with only 8.4% of population, effectively contributing more to the UK Treasury than we get back, receiving only 9.3% in return — this amount reducing constantly as Scottish block grant cuts take affect (currently the Scottish block grant is 30% lower than it was in real terms).
      .
      2. We will be able to make decisions that benefit Scotland to grow our economy instead of UK policies which benefit the Tory voting South East of England and London, especially its financial sector. .
       
      3. We will have a sovereign parliament that is elected by the people of Scotland with a real mandate in Scotland (unlike having 30 years out of the last 50 with UK Tory Governments which Scotland did not vote for) and 63 years out of the last 70 where the governments were chosen by the people of England and the remaining 7 years where Scottish MPs only helped produce minority governments or governments with wafer thin majorities of 5 MPs — none of which lasted longh.
      .
      4. Scotland will rise to become the 6th wealthiest country in the world (OECD) whereas we are currently 16th as part of the UK. (the UK will drop to 22nd without Scotland).
      .
      5. We will have greater personal pride and build an ‘oil fund’ like Norway for the financial security of future generations.
      .
      DEFENCE :
      6. We will have a borders defence force in line with other northern European countries of our size (e.g. Norway etc.)
      .
      7. We will be not be forced to go into illegal wars. .
      8. We will be free from nuclear weapons and Scotland in the future will no longer be nuclear dump site
      .
      ENERGY :
      9. We have 25% of the total renewable energy potential of the EU within Scotland’s territorial waters and land (tidal, wave and wind) — the future of which is likely to dwarf oil revenue income as we sell this clean energy to England and Europe
      .
      10. We have the largest oil and gas reserves in the EU with as much still in the ground as already extracted (£1 trillion to £1.5 trillion still to be extracted in current fields) and the oil will last anothe 40 to 100 years. This does not include the West coast fields which new extraction technologies and oil barrel price increases is making feasible.
      .
      EUROPE :
      11. We have the largest and best fishing grounds in Europe which have been bargained away by the UK in exchange for EU rebates demanded by Thatcher (essentially lowering taxes in the rich areas of London and South East England) — thus to ensure the rebate, the Tories wouldn’t ask for regional area development grants to aid local industries in the UK — for example Greenock shipbuilding closed down but would have continued with an EU grant.
      . 12. We receive less in Scotland in rural development funding (EU Common Agricultual Policy) from the EU due to us being within the UK than we would receive as an independent country
      .
      13. We do not have an independent seat in the UN and EU or any other international organisation as our views are represented by the UK — we would gain a UN seat as well as an EU seat — and more EU MEPs.
      .
      DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATION AND SOCIAL POLICY :
      14. We will become a fairier society and not be hamstrung by far right polices which our country never voted for but are imposed upon us by Conservatives and increasingly by Lib Dems and Labour.
      .
      15. We will not be subjected to policies aimed at privatisation of the NHS, social care or education which are all targets for privatisation by Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives.
      .
      16. We will use all our wealth in Scotland instead of sending to the UK Treasury — we will use it to help increase quality of life, life-expectancy, literacy, education and social cohesion in line with other small northern European countries (Denmark, Norway etc).
      .
      17. Small northern European countries like Norway, Denmark, Finland, and even Ireland and Iceland, beat the UK in the UN HDI (Human Development Index) and quality of life indicators.

    138. Galen10 says:

      “What’s the spring-breathing jasmine and rose
      What’s the summer with all its gay train
      Or the splendour of autumn to those
      Who’ve bartered their freedom for gain
      Let the love of our land’s sacred rights
      To the love of our people succeed
      Let friendship and honour unite
      And flourish on both sides the Tweed
      No sweetness the senses can cheer
      Which corruption and bribery bind
      No brightness that gloom can e’er clear
      For honour’s the sum of the mind”

      Ne’er a truer sentiment….

    139. Jeannie says:

      @Galen10
      Beautiful, isn’t it?  As my old granny used to say, “Keep your thoughts high”. 

    140. YesYesYes says:

      For those of you with children, and who want to provide them with a graphic illustration of  what the earth was like when the dinosaurs died out, tune in to the Parliament channel now and watch the House of Lords debate on the ‘Future of the United Kingdom’.

    141. Adrian B says:

      Yes Yes Yes,

      Watching it right now – The dinosaurs are still alive and kicking. Scotland must keep in line. Ohh here is lord Foulkes……..  

    142. Holebender says:

      Those comments on the BBC should be read in the context of a bullying abusive spouse when his long put-upon partner finally plucks up the courage to leave him.
       
      The comments are typical:
      Fine, go if you want but you’ll be sorry…
      You’re nothing without me…
      No-one else will want you…
      You’ll be begging me to take you back soon enough…
      Don’t expect a share of the money/house etc. I paid for all of it…
       
      They’re just lashing out in their blind panic and rage. They can’t understand what they have done wrong to make us stop loving them any more. They thought everything was going well; sure, there have been a few rocky patches but we can work those out, etc.

    143. Jeannie says:

      Just watching David Steel……wait till his wife gets HIM home tonight – Judy is an independence supporter!

    144. YesYesYes says:

      @Adrian B,
       
      It’s more of a collective dying gasp, don’t you think? But I hope Lord Swally stays fit and well until the autumn of 2014, we need him! 

    145. Macart says:

      Oh wow these people are prime examples of why we need to go our own way. Years of Westminster and media brainwashing on show here. They’ve swallowed the whole thing hook, line and sinker.

      Simply stunning. 😮 

    146. Elizabeth says:

      Did I just hear Lord Steele suggest that the House of Lords could act as a revising chamber for the Scottish Parliament legislation since the SP doesn’t have one of its own???

    147. Jeannie says:

      Lord Soley (Labour) wishes we would forget Braveheart and remember that the Civil War was not an English Civil War because Scots were also involved on both sides (true).  He then said that the Act of Union stopped all that fighting.  What the hell were the Jacobite Rebellions then?  Was Culloden a figment of our collective imaginations?

    148. CJCairns says:

      I notice the Rev has kept this as the lead item all day and I can understand why, given the rich seam of comment it has struck.
      But I’d like to echo the sentiments of those in this thread who worry that taking the piss out of ignorant (in the literal sense of the word) English people new and/or completely misinformed on the independence debate, fun though it may be, is a dangerous habit to form.
      We do not yet know the depths to which the establishment opponents of independence and their acolytes will plunge to maintain the status quo – but we can be sure someone somewhere is logging every last joke or retaliation ready to take it out of context, give it a good spin and throw it back at us with interest. 
      Really important we try and maintain the moral high ground as much as we can – as Jeannie’s granny said, “Keep your thoughts high.”
       

    149. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      In fairness, it’s still the lead item because I’m a little ill today and haven’t summoned the energy for a new post.

    150. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Did I just hear Lord Steele suggest that the House of Lords could act as a revising chamber for the Scottish Parliament legislation since the SP doesn’t have one of its own???”

      I believe you just did.

    151. wulie says:

      take it easy rev, hope you get well soon.

    152. Galen10 says:

      @ Jeannie

      The noble Lord Soley might also like to ponder that the British Civil Wars, whilst of complex origin, were ignited by the spark of Scottish opposition to the claims of Charles Stewart, and his delusions that the divine right of kings gave him a license to do what he liked….

      ….one might have hoped that a place with a statue of Cromwell outside would have a better grasp of history.

    153. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “take it easy rev, hope you get well soon.”

      I think I’ve just got a cold coming on, bit washed out is all. No cause for panic.

    154. Andrew says:

      Live on BBC parliament:
      A parcel of rogues with massive vested interests debating Scottish Independence to the accompaniment of the BBC’s propaganda ticker.

    155. Adrian B says:

      Yes Yes Yes

      It’s more of a collective dying gasp, don’t you think?

      As much as it is a dying last gasp, it is also very much a Cross Party Unionist Think Tank. They spout so much misinformed, crass lack of objectivity. Westminster good. SNP BAD.

      We need to keep an eye on this lot – they might not be completely united. Lord Wallace of Tankerness being surprisingly sane today. Lord Foulkes is a self serving idiot. McConnel uses his hands too much and it to eager to keep him self in the manner he has become accustomed too.

      Got to get shot of this shower. 

    156. YesYesYes says:

      @Adrian B,
       
      Agreed. They’ve stopped now. We can all return to the twenty-first century. Could have been worse I suppose, I mean, they could have broadcast a replay of Ed Miliband’s conference speech. 

    157. Jeannie says:

      Dear God!  I’ve never listened to a House of Lords debate before.  No wonder they all look as though they’re sleeping.

    158. Jeannie says:

      That’s ok, Rev, if you’re not well – “We’ll take it from here” till you’re better!

    159. Brad Millar says:

      Scottish and proud of it …… if loving my country is wrong then i never want to be right

    160. Cuphook says:

      @Rev

      I too have been feeling under the weather today. I hope we’re not going to get Better Together tough.   

    161. Juteman says:

      So £50m to be spent in 2014 ‘celebrating’ the start of WW1.
       Obviously Harry is refusing to get married that year.

    162. Cuphook says:

      @Juteman

      I really don’t know what they’re celebrating: UK’s last great imperial venture? It is, however, important during this time of economic hardship that we remind Johnny Foreigner that we once had an empire which Eton generals laid down the workers lives to defend. I’m sure all of our German, Austrian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Turkish… friends will be glad to join in the party.
           

    163. R Louis says:

      Juteman;

      I was waiting to see how the unionists would come up with an excuse for obscene union jackery in the run up to the referendum.  Now we know, they are going to celebrate the start (not the end????) of world war 1.

      I had relatives who died in that war, but I regard this as nothing but pure politicking.

      David Cameron is a freaking disgrace. 

      As you rightly point out, maybe Harry wouldn’t get married on demand, and Willie and Kate wouldn’t have a royal baby at the behest of the London unionist cabal.

       

    164. scottish_skier says:

      2014 is the 60th anniversary of Operation Anvil; a major part of the crushing of the Mau-Mau uprising in Kenya against the British colonialists. Nairobi ‘cleansed’ of 50,000 native Kenyans, these being sent to prison camps, forced labour camps or ‘reserves’.

      Maybe Dave can put on some sort of celebration?

    165. Juteman says:

      Handled correctly, the WW1 ‘celebration’ of Britishness could backfire spectaculary on Cameron and his Bitteronians.
       1,000’s of Scots slaughtered needlessly by the actions of a previous generation of old Etonians. 

    166. Jeannie says:

      And 100 years later, we’re still lions led by donkeys!

    167. R Louis says:

      Scottish_skier,

      Methinks that come 2014, we’ll also be ‘celebrating‘ the start of the war with Iran in 2013.  The hype has already started on Fox and Sky. 

    168. Cuphook says:

      Weren’t something like 26% of UK casualties Scottish at 12% of the population? Can’t be bothered researching the figures right now. It was wildly disproportionate though. It really depresses me when you find a war memorial in the Highlands and there’s not a house for miles.

      Wonder if they’ll celebrate sending English tanks into Glasgow in 1919?    

    169. scottish_skier says:

      Lest we forget.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

      the British detained not 80,000 Kikuyu, as the official histories maintain, but almost the entire population of one and a half million people, in camps and fortified villages. There, thousands were beaten to death or died from malnutrition, typhoid, tuberculosis and dysentery. In some camps almost all the children died.
      The inmates were used as slave labour. Above the gates were edifying slogans, such as “Labour and freedom” and “He who helps himself will also be helped”. Loudspeakers broadcast the national anthem and patriotic exhortations. People deemed to have disobeyed the rules were killed in front of the others. The survivors were forced to dig mass graves, which were quickly filled. 

      Sounds familiar.

    170. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      @Scottish Skier

      And the imperial mindset is prevalent in that article BTL judging by the responses posted. Ill quote 2 of them.

      So you just find out the British rounded up people into concentration camps, committed genocide, rape, slavery and deprivatins that wiped out entire villages children then decide to write…

      love the “liberal/Liberal” spin: you mustn’t look back at the good things in the past, only the bad things. Why doesn’t the Guardian do some articles about the loving, caring Portuguese, German, French, Spanish and Dutch colonial past? I’ve said this before: the world should be thankful the British had the biggest empire, not any of the above. If Britain didn’t have the empire, someone else would have.

      We can all dream of a loving, sharing and caring world, but we must remember that people exist, and human nature dictates that bad things will happen. Like it or not, the bully will triumph. I tend to think Britain were probably nicer than the other bullies. I wonder how pretty Indian and Chinese imperialism will be in the future? 

      Do you not think some people have their heads up their behinds. People need to separate idealism with reality.
       
       
      I’ll go further, George: it’s not even worth the effort of ignoring it. We had the largest empire the world has ever seen – do really think anyone could have made that omelette without breaking some eggs? 

    171. Erchie says:

      Not just Lord Steel’s idea, Foulkes too. The idea being that the Lords could “approve” Scots legislation as Westminster does for Wales.

      i.e. neuter Holyrood since they had the audacity not to just vote in Lab/LibDem coalitions

    172. Richie says:

      “Celebrating” the start of WW1 in 2014 is pretty sick if you ask me.

      Anyway, it could backfire on Cameron.
      This article in Bella Caledonia from April can explain.

      Why Ypres matters more than Bannockburn for the Independence vote.

      http://caledonianmercury.com/2012/04/16/opinion-why-ypres-matters-more-than-bannockburn-for-the-independence-vote/0032258

       

    173. MajorBloodnok says:

      Celebrating the start of the Great War must be one of the most bonkers things I’ve ever heard.  I would have thought that 11 November 2018 would have been far more appropriate, and even then, hardly a celebration…. I’m glad we’re leaving.

    174. muttley79 says:

      I was in a bookshop today and as I was having a look at the politics section, I saw David Torrance’s new book on David Steel.  On the front cover it said something about him being a statesman.  FFS!  We need to get rid of all this lot.

    175. Adrian B says:

      Erchie,

      We have no need for the House of lords to do anything with Scottish legislation. That job is for the Scottish electorate and Scottish Parliament.

      This top down version of politics has had it’s day in Scotland. We have moved out of the dark and into the light. We have no use for the like’s of Steel and Foulkes in this democracy. They endlessly waste time and taxpayers money while patting each other on the back and congratulating each other for their views on things they have no power over. 

    176. Jeannie says:

      My grandfather won the Military Medal for bravery at the Somme.  He would be appalled to see the sacrifice made by so many young men being highjacked by a rich Tory politician to further his cause in opposing Scottish independence and, at the same time, setting himself up for re-election in 2015.
       

    177. James T. says:

      I read a lot of history books. From the Roman period, all the way up to the present day. No other nation has ever …EVER…celebrated the beginnings of a War.

      So, if the Unionists are going to do this around august 2014, then they better get ready for one helluva backlash from the Germans, the French, the Belgians, the Russians, the Austrians, the Hungarians, the Serbs, the Bosnians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Canadians, the South Africans, the Indians, the Americans…..basically, the rest of the World

      And why …so they can promote how ‘Great’ Britain is. I have no doubt that if it does go ahead that some twats will say how we battered the Nazis….even though the Nazis were the 2nd World War…and weren’t even in existence in 1914. I’m sure Angela Merkel will absolutely delighted to celebrate the war that ended in disaster for them and probably cost them 8 million German soldiers.

    178. muttley79 says:

      Foulkes, Steel, McConnell, both Davidsons, Liddell, B.Wilson, Robertson, T.Scott, Brown, Darling, Rennie, Lamont, Gray, Curran, Reid.  A real rogues gallery and a reason to vote Yes in itself…..

    179. Adrian B says:

      muttley79

      Over on Munguins republic, Tris is having a vote on your 5 worst politicians

      http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/poll-which-politician-do-you-dislike.html

    180. muttley79 says:

      Cheers Adrian B.  Just had a look.  How did I forget to mention the Alexanders (Douglas particularly), Murphy, Forsyth, Baillie?

    181. bob says:

      judging by most of the comments on here the english are the most racist nation on earth and now camoron  say if Scotland gets independence he hopes the mayans are right and that the world will end this shows just how desperate the english are to hang on to Scotland and its money come 2014 the world will end for england when Scotland votes yes to independence.

    182. Jeannie says:

      Tavish Scott makes my flesh creep.

    183. Jeannie says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMwEd13r9-I
      Just in case you’re not otherwise engaged watching the Proclaimers on Emmerdale and are looking for some diversion, this is the link for the fantastic West Wing scene I commented on last night.  I’d vote for him in a heartbeat!

    184. Juteman says:

      @ Bob.
      The English are fine people. I have many English friends and relatives.
      It’s the British establishment that is the problem, not the ordinary English folk.

    185. Tris says:

      Better together, huh?

      I know where I’m not wanted. 

      As for David Steele…

      Yes, please take our laws away to England and have them revised by a load of unionist placemen, aristocrats and bishops of the English church… what a good idea.

      Every time these idiots open their stupid mouths we get closer to independence. 

      Bravo Steele. 

    186. Appleby says:

      @Scott Minto
       
      It’d be like saying to a woman who was raped that she shouldn’t be upset by it, she should be thankful as the person who raped her could have been worse and killed her too, then brush the crime under the carpet as a non-issue. What kind of monster would use such logic? Imperialism has warped and disturbed the minds of many.

    187. Adam says:

      I echo Kraft Kris’ thoughts above with this post. There are plenty of reasonable and sensible comments on that thread, from posters on all sides. The arch tone of this post is a real disappointment.



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