Jenny Marra’s Nation
Alert readers may recall a piece from earlier today in which we mused on the curious and perhaps unique unwillingness of the people of Scotland to seek more powers over their own lives. It was in part triggered by a curious moment from last night’s BBC Scotland independence debate from Kelso in the Borders.
A gentleman in the audience had asked the assembled panel of politicians “what they understand by the word ‘nation’, and which nation or nations do you belong to?”, and Labour MSP Jenny Marra’s reply was illuminating and perplexing in equal measures.
The perplexing part came first.
“To me, a nation is a common culture, it’s people you feel an affinity with, you feel you have a common identity, and for me, my nation is Scotland.”
To which the strikingly obvious retort is “Then why the heck are you planning to vote for your nation NOT to be Scotland, but the United Kingdom?”
Note that even having been expressly offered the option of choosing “nations” plural, Marra declined. She didn’t say “I am both Scottish and British and I don’t want to have to choose between them”, which is the standard Unionist boilerplate for that question.
“My nation is Scotland”, said someone who is actively and strenuously campaigning to prevent Scotland becoming a nation, someone whose passport identifies her nationality not as Scottish but as British. Dishonest, crude political duplicity or simply a person who’s very confused? Make your own judgements.
The illuminating, and rather more significant, part of Marra’s answer followed.
“I think if I was given a blank piece of paper now to draw up arrangements for our country, I think I might draw them up the way they are now.”
That’s another uncommonly-direct answer that you won’t normally get out of a Labour MP or MSP. You’ll find very few prepared to say in public that the way things are now is the way they like it. (Viewers will see in the clip that Marra also called the current arrangements “an ideal scenario”.)
The status quo is, in every three-option poll we’ve ever seen, the least popular choice among Scots. It consistently trails behind both independence and more devolution, however the latter is defined. But last night Jenny Marra appeared to voice the love that dare not speak its name aloud – no more powers for Scotland. Constitution-wise, she reckons everything’s just perfect the way it is.
We haven’t taken her out of context – you can see the entire segment for yourself on the iPlayer (from 39 minutes), in which she expands on the point and says that she only wants to affect change in the areas that are already controlled by Holyrood, naming health and education specifically.
Despite being a list MSP, Marra isn’t just some seat-warming backbencher. She’s the party’s shadow youth employment minister and deputy finance spokesperson, so it seems fair to infer that she speaks for her party on those issues. And she says that she wants no additional controls over the economic levers that control Scotland’s finances and create employment.
The media insists that “more powers” is the clear preference of the Scottish people, and that “devo max” will be the outcome of a No vote. The evidence doesn’t support the first of those assertions, and for those of us actually bothering to listen to what the Unionist parties say, the second looks less and less likely with every passing day.
I was disappointed in Jenny Marra’s contribution to the whole debate as it lacked any evidence of serious political thought. She made no serious considered points and sounded like a third form school girl.
Playing to the lowest common denominator is the most apt description of her contribution.
I had expected better from her.
I don’t think these panel debates work as there are invariably too many audience questions and not enough time for coherent answers. Hosie had about four consecutive attacks on different areas near the end and about thirty seconds to respond.
The format lends itself to sound bites only
I think Ms Marra is a sneaky wee opportunist. She is one to watch.
One in five of Scotland’s children are officially recognised as living in poverty. More than 1.3 billion people worldwide live in extreme poverty. The world’s 85 richest people have as much as the 3.5 billion poorest.
Yet given a blank piece of paper Jenny Marra would not change anything. Shame on her and the Labour party.
Aye, that was an illuminating bit. So she wants to make “radical” decisions on health and education… But just not in tax, welfare or defence.
No no, we must keep the important decisions for the mummy parliament in London. Can’t go getting above our stations.
(Not half as illuminating as when the unionists in the audience – and on the panel – burst not laughter at the idea of Scotland being able to afford to exist without massive tax increases…)
Vote No for Marra the same shite.
When Marra declares that the current system is “an ideal scenario” she means that it’s ideal for herself and the other professional politicians of the Labour party. After all, it guarantees them a lifetime of publicly-funded comfort. Even rejection by the electorate is only a temporary inconvenience: That’s what the House of Lords is for!
The fact that life in contemporary Scotland is far from ‘ideal’ for many people is of little concern to self-serving careerists like Jenny Marra.
The most disturbing part for me was the part where Jenny Marra stated:
“Scotland’s Oil is declining, it is running out” which was met by wild applause and cheering from the unionists in the audience.
What kind of country do we live in where people actually cheer in the HOPE of the decline of their own country!?
She is an idealist who is in denial. Being a smart lady, deep down she will know that everything she stands for can only be acheived through Scotland being Independent.
She is wrought from the same ore as Sarwar.
Did someone in the audience not ask Davidson and Marra what currency they would like Scotland to have when we get Independence,no answer as usual this question should be asked of Lamont and Davidson all the time.
Her performance was a bit of an embarrassment, looking to have so much conviction but in reality being nothing but posturing. She obviously not thick but you wonder what goes on in such people’s heads. They can never, ever, be trusted again.
As usual there was no questioning on the issue of more powers and what would happen after a No vote, despite the opportunity coming up a number of times, like with Marra’s comments – James Cook was ready to jump in on other issues, even getting carried away enough to help Davidson’s position at one point.
The entire debate last night was one way; another question which could easily have been added in was what Davidson and Marra would want the currency situation to be if there was a Yes vote.
The whole format is flawed with having an audience who’ve already made up their minds and are clearly versed in the rhetoric of their side.
SynSin
Synthetic Sincerity Jenny Marra
It’s phucking pathetic, hopefully more and more people are feeling ‘scottish’ and get upset at the constant running down of our country.
Surely it isn’t far from them coming out with ‘we shouldn’t have a football team’ ?
JENNY Marra
A future leader of the Labour branch office in Scotland. She is obviously being schooled by her mentors Johan Lamont & Jackie Bailey in politics. Tutored in public speaking by James Kelly MSP.
How can she fail?
Heavens above!
Presumably she ticked ‘Scottish only’ on the census then.
The debate was absolute rubbish. As I said last night, I was losing the will to live. The amount of downright lies told by Marra and Davidson were relentless. Stewart Hosie was not good… poor debater and despite Patrick Harvie making a couple of important comments, he never got to speak enough and was negligent in not pointing out that the boom in renewables (that is only just beginning)… a boom which over the next 40 to 50 years will replace the oil, revolutionise the energy industry and become the most valuable and profitable asset Scotland will own.
Poor all round… it makes it even worse, when audience members, who clearly do not know what they are talking about spout rubbish about the state the Scottish Energy Industry is allegedly going to be in 40 to 50 years time.
Bonkers!!!
I am in little doubt that Jenny Marra stands an excellent chance of one day leading the Labour Party in Scotland-at least in the sense that Lamont “leads it” (I know that is all a bit confusing, of course).
Sadly all that will have happened is that a young, more personable lady lacking in political vision, will have taken over from an older, less personable lady lacking in political vision.
Does she have all she needs? Does she want for anything? Does she give a monkeys about anyone else like those that can’t even dream of having the basics in their lives, like a job and a home? What a truly disgraceful attitude in accepting and promoting the status quo, from someone who should be supporting the young and battling the present regime in their quest to destroy lives.
Something missing their, it’s called intelligence.
“I think if I was given a blank piece of paper now to draw up arrangements for our country, I think I might draw them up the way they are now.”
A Tory government we didn’t vote for. Good.
Policies we didn’t vote for. Good.
No control over our welfare system. Good.
Nuclear weapons we don’t want. Good
Etc etc
An illuminating insight into how the Labour Party think.
There will be no Devo Max or more powers for Scotland should it vote NO. There is every likely hood of Westminster taking away that what we already have. I have lived outside of the British Isles between 1972 and 1999 in a truly democratic country where you got the government you wanted or it was so close you might have had one other voted. They looked after the people and not themselves. I will be voting YES and I try to convince every one I talk to to do the same it is th eonly answer for Scotland to prospoer.
Personally I thought last night was better than the previous one from Greenock.
There seemed to be a real dislike of Labour in the audience which probably covered SNP and Tories. I though Hosie was fine and Harvie was to my mind excellent.
Ruthie blustered and Marra soundbited her way through. I nearly died from laughter when she said that the current scenario is perfect.
what amazes me is how any Labour politician can stand and say how much good they ate going to do in the future, given the chance. No party has had their level of influence in Scotland since almost forever…Yet somehow there is so much needs fixed.
I managed to watch the Vid before the BEEB squashed it… this time.
Maybe me, but seems to be without sound?
Prof. Maurizio Viroli draws a very useful distinction between ‘patria’ and ‘natio’.
The ‘natio’ is the ethno-cultural entity. It is identified by its folk-songs, its language, its landscapes, and other cultural characteristics.
The ‘patria’ is the civic-political entity. It is identified by its Cnostitution, laws, institutions,and liberties.
These two don’t necessarily coincide. For example, Machiavelli (a much vilified and often misunderstood man) was of the Italian ‘natio’, but a Florentine patriot. Pericles was of the Greek ‘natio’, but his ‘patria’ was Athens.
Now, in the UK/Scotland case, things get interesting.
In the traditional (pre-1970s) Scottish unionist view, Scotland was the natio but the UK was the patria. Scotland was a cultural identity based on people and place, but the UK was a political identity based on laws and institutions. In itself there’s nothing inconsistent in Jenny Marra’s point. She’s just reflecting an old view which acknowledges the existence of a Scottish ‘natio’, to which she belongs, but has no interest in the establishment of a Scottish ‘patria’.
Most people in Scotland accept that there is a Scottish ‘natio’. The battle ground is in making people realise that that ‘natio’ will never be well served, nor truly flourishing, without its own ‘patria’ – without a system of well-constitued institutions, laws and liberties through which we can discuss and act upon our common needs.
As stated by others. Why do the unionists seem to delight in decline. Why is the potential for oil production decline cheered?
The cringe factor was represented as always by the Labour representative.
Today is Devomax…this is as much as we’ll ever have under Labour or Tories.
Ok scratch that, reloaded and it works
Senlac88 wrote,
What kind of country do we live in where people actually cheer in the HOPE of the decline of their own country!?
I’m beginning to think that die-hard unionists suffer from a mental disorder akin to Stockholm Syndrome.
From Wikipedia:
Stockholm syndrome is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.
[it] can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.”
Daddy, what is that labour party for?
Another thing on the ‘Scandinavian High Taxes’
UK ($26,904 USD a year)- link to oecdbetterlifeindex.org
Sweden ($26,242 USD a year)- link to oecdbetterlifeindex.org
Norway ($31,459 USD a year)-
link to oecdbetterlifeindex.org
Denmark ($24,682 USD a year)-
link to oecdbetterlifeindex.org
Finland (£25,739 USD a year)-
link to oecdbetterlifeindex.org
Average for Scandinavia ($27,030 USD a year)-
So… Scandinavians pay more taxes… get much much better public services and on average still have more money in their pockets to play with than we do!
This is another issue which should have been firmly debunked in the debate and wasn’t.
“To me, a nation is a common culture, it’s people you feel an affinity with, you feel you have a common identity, and for me, my nation is Scotland.”
That’s just another more subtle way of saying “I’m a proud scot” which they know rings alarm bells now. You make the mistake of expecting logic.
Perhaps she’s scared and does not know how to vote in this opinion poll;
link to thescottishscaremonger.blogspot.co.uk
“I think if I was given a blank piece of paper now to draw up arrangements for our country, I think I might draw them up the way they are now.”
This is also known as lack of ambition and imagination (or a Labour career politician).
Senlac88 wrote,
What kind of country do we live in where people actually cheer in the HOPE of the decline of their own country!?
We live in a colony.
a2
I mentioned on the Guardian the other night that I was a Scot, plain and simple, that I do not need adjectives to put in front of Scot to justify to myself my decision to deny my country.
It is, I think, a fair comment but it didn’t find favour with everyone.
@Clootie
“As stated by others. Why do the unionists seem to delight in decline.”
This is because the nation state they support has been in decline since 1776.
Well at least BBC haven’t censored this clip for copyright breach like the one yesterday with the most spectacular political NO bias of their day, yesterday?
If I went around saying I’m a proud Scot I would be very very ridiculed and mocked, by all and every fellow Scot. But unionist Labour in Scotland say it automatically, with a straight face.
It is kind of odd how No have appropriated a version of McGlashan for themselves. I think it is called over-compensating for betraying their own hearts.
Marra doesn’t even look like she believes the sh8te she comes away with herself. How can loving your nation be letting another nation control it from another capital city. Thats not pride in your nation that’s sichophacy. Also I loved when Stuart Hosie challenged Ruth Davidson and she then made up a story. Hosie then said” God you are just making this up now” Her look gave the game away she was actually just saying the first thing that came into her head. Usual No hecklers in the audience as well saying that childcare could be implemented. Missing the point that if the SNP implementit now then they pay for it twice as the addtional tax from working mothers will go straight to Osborne and not the Scottish Government. Why would we want to give him any more money to spend on london flats and Nuclear Weapons.
Jenny Marra was by some way the poorest panel performer last night and her nation comments truly puzzling.
As a local, I applied to be part of the audience, and although I did get a telephone interview from the BBC in Glasgow, I didn’t make the grade. They were looking for a 3 way split between Yes / No / Don’t Know. Although there were a few SNP members in the audience, most of the YES folk were non-aligned. Predictably the tweed-clad NO side were mostly Tory and I did see a local Lib Dem councilor too.
We lecture children if they’re telling lies
They will not prosper and they will not thrive – Michael Marra
Jenny Marra revealed the Labour party have been telling lies on more devolution, as a consequence Labour will not prosper or will thrive in Scotland.
refresh page
“I think if I was given a blank piece of paper”
does she mean scrap piece of paper?
definition
a small piece or portion; fragment,old, discarded, or rejected
Just one of the pack, unable to show any sense of fair play because it would undermine 90 % plus of the BT campaign. Still waiting for the prominent Labour figure to break ranks and show their moral backbone. 100% certain it won’t be Jenny Marra.
Wait this is what Marra would draw on a blank sheet of paper???? I think she’d need more than one!
just checking in.
Anyone who witnesed – as I did – Marra’s contribution to the debate in Holyrood in 2011 on the proposed introduction of ‘Scottish Studies’ to the classroom would not characterise her as ‘bright’.
Her offering was a hotch-potch of ignorance of Scottish history and culture, leavened with standard issue platitudes from the Daily Mail, and sprinkled with the requisite amount of that self-loathing which openly courts approval from her London masters.
She’ll go far in ‘Scottish’ Labour.
“my nation is Scotland, but…” says Jenny.
“I’m a Proud Scot, but…” says just about every unionist.
“When you say ‘but’ you have just negated everything you said before it.” said some psychologist once upon a time.
At the eleventh hour for voters it will always come down to this in the poll booth.
Scotland v Britain (What comes first, where is your allegiance, where should all important decisions which affect you be made, where is your capital, where is the boundary of your home).
Dont buy the Scottish and British thing its way too messy for the referendum. Fair enough notion but No’s just exploit it every time as the statuse qou.
It amazes me that Jenny Marra is held up as being proof that there is still some hope for Scottish Labour in the future, along with Kezia Dugdale and Drew Smith. All three have proven to be every bit as tribal as the rest of Scottish Labour. I dunno if Marra sincerely believes the kind of cringing nonsense she was saying last night, but either way, she’s not the kind of politician I want representing me after independence (and being a North-East list MSP, she is technically representing me – just as well I’ve got an SNP constituency MSP.)
@Fiona says:
19 February, 2014 at 1:05 pm
Daddy, what is that labour party for?Fiona says:
Fiona, it’s for the Tories to stand on and kick, and make them feel superior.
Prof. Maurizio Viroli draws a very useful distinction between ‘patria’ and ‘natio’.
The ‘natio’ is the ethno-cultural entity. It is identified by its folk-songs, its language, its landscapes, and other cultural characteristics.
The ‘patria’ is the civic-political entity. It is identified by its Cnostitution, laws, institutions, and liberties.
Good post. Thanks for this, it encapsulates the two perspectives which seem to be in conflict within unionists.
I think the criticism of Stewart Hosie is a little unfair – he wasn’t given time to answer anything, but all the accusations were being levelled at the SNP.
Patrick Harvie continues to impress me, articulating the wider picture of what Scotland could be.
The audience, frankly, baffled me. Cheering the idea of the oil running out, heckling the Yes speakers, then laughing when Marra said Labour would win the next election!
Probably Jenny Marra was on the panel as the “acceptable face” of Holyrood Labour, in preference to Kezia Dugdale, who is rapidly becoming Lamont’s snarling attack bitch.
That will be the same Jenny Marra who said Scotland joined the union as part of a democratic process on BBC Radio Scotland just before Christmas.
I despair!
Anymore talk of Attack Bitches proudscot and it’ll be the Daily Mail for you!!
Marra – classic Labour ‘production line’career politician.
The no campaign just want to stop Scotland from being Scotland. When a foreigner in the name of Borroso or however you spell it. Compares their nation to Kosovo. They say well done instead of saying how dare you compare my country to Kosovo. It’s a bit like an abused person accepting that they are trash by their abuser. In other words anyone can abuse Scotland as long as it backs up their agenda. Traiters the lot of them.
Yippeee it worked. Ah hem, I thought this was an interesting wee article link to english.pravda.ru
I agree that a lot of people are confused and afraid, just what Westminster wants, keep us all punch drunk.
Suggests we’ve mostly been conditioned through our childhood using fear etc to turn us into individuals who are afraid to think for ourselves and, consequently, are slaves to governments etc. Think that’s possibly what has happened to a lot of people, they’re like rabbits in headlights and cant help themselves? It’s like they need snapped out of a trance. When you talk to them and answer the questions that worry them the most (with wings logic about whats really going on) when they finally get it you can literally see the veil lifting
Neither pride nor honesty from Ms Marra.
The lady stands in support of a legal opinion commissioned by Westminster which states that the country of Scotland ceased to be on the signing of the treaty of union and was in fact absorbed into a greater renamed England.
Personally I kinda take issue with that opinion.
So no, I seriously doubt that anyone in support of Westminster politics from Scotland can claim pride of any kind.
Helpmaboab @1.04pm mentioned the Stockholm Syndrome. There’s an interesting article about Welsh people by Dilys Davies much of which explains why proudscots feel as they do and see no inconsistency.
Davies, D. (2002) ‘The Significance of the Welsh Language & Culture in the Health Care Services’, in Jones, G. (ed.) Speaking the Invisible. Cardiff: NHS Wales. 37-40
What do Westminster, Whitehall, MOD AND a shoe-shop with a brothel above it, have in common?
All have a lot of F&&&ING Overhead.
An Independent Scotland will be considerably better off, through change and renewal. Looking at doing things better.
Centuries of building up this monster dinosaur called ‘UK Government’, informs us that it is probably too big, inefficient, inflexible, costly, bureaucratic, corrupt and ineffective.
All organisations get bloated if they are not reviewed regularly. Westminster is the misty bloated of all.
There are the tangible costs of running Westminster (50 million per year) they are nothing compared to the inefficiencies that leak down to the civil servants, quangos, MOD and all other Government departments.
“crude political duplicity or simply a person who’s confused ” As someone in the audience I would opt for the latter – looks like she’s joined a motorway going in the wrong direction and doesn’t know how to get off.
Ultimate irony is that Jenny is the niece of that well kent face Michael Marra. A fine musician and nationalist…where did it all go wrong. Well probably studying history at St Andrews. I am presuming it was English history she studied. She is bright alright but not emotionally very intelligent. Or as they used to say it’s the difference between studying for a degree and reading for a degree!
O/T apologies if this has been posted already …
Labour for Independence funding campaign:
link to indiegogo.com
Thought Hosie did well last night, he only let himself down slightly near the end in reponse to the question about being able to afford Scandinavian-style welfare costs.
The immediate reponse should be “Well for starters they don’t spend billions on WMD, foreigh wars and aircraft carriers for power projection and neither will we if we vote Yes”..
That would silence the hecklers and allow him to explain that good welfare provision actually pays for itself, without idiots shouting over him and in a way that people can understand the principle instantly.
Jenny is the late Michael Marra’s niece.
Here he is with our other National Anthem …
link to telegraph.co.uk
Apologies if posted already…. a load of lies about how the UK state pension would (not)work in iScotland
Yes,well I’m sure we can trust them to take stock after we vote no
.
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
Aye Right.
Marra’s just another Labour manufactured pull-string talking doll, with a limited set of pre-recorded responses.
Stewart Hosie was generally fine but floundered badly, like John Swinney before him, when he stated the cost to RUK business of not having a currency agreement in place and subsequently was asked to put a figure on the cost to Scottish business. Both of them glaringly side-stepped the question. The SNP really have to sort something out there – it doesn’t look good.
As to the others, Patrick Harvie was what he unfailingly always is – very good. To be fair to her, I think Ruth Davidson is improving as a politician, but she really needs to stop trying to talk over people when they’re trying to answer questions. Actually most of the current Tory MSP’s are better than the Labour mob (not difficult,I know).
Helpmaboab 1.04 pm. Excellent. Have we now discovered Jockholm Syndrome?
sorry,one posted same link twice.
link to archive.is
Big jock says: The no campaign just want to stop Scotland from being Scotland.
Exactly.
Oh, Marra’s onto a winner, alright. Anyone with above average intelligence who can avoid making enemies too early will wheech to the top in the Labour Party. It must be just about the easiest career vehicle, and the one paying far and away the best returns for good, but not outstanding, qualifications.
There is an obvious rival in Kezia Dugdale. Interestingly, she made a bit of a gaffe a couple of weeks ago on Question Time, which I haven’t seen picked up: she said that people in Scotland liked the SNP Government, but didn’t want independence. It’s not often you hear a Labour spokesperson candidly admitting that the SNP Government is liked: too close to an admission that it’s doing well.
polls n stuff
Aye Patrick Harvie is always quick witted and comes across as genuine. Hosie is also very articulate. However it’s difficult trying to reason with people with closed minds if not impossible. They were getting ready to heckle on the B of Bang as Linford Christie used to say. His lips moved and before sound travelled to ears the heckling had started. That’s just extremely ignorant and pointless. You can only learn if you listen. Stupid people are stupid because they can’t listen.
Off topic, but I’m sure the Rev won’t mind in this case. A glowing testimonial in the second part of a piece about Scottish journalism’s reaction to the Indy debate.
‘And then there is Wings Over Scotland. Speak to anyone engaged in the referendum debate and they will know all about it. It attracts just as much praise and respect from those in the Yes camp as it draws vitriol and abuse from the No side. With almost the whole of the UK’s traditional media lined up against Yes, Wings Over Scotland is a refreshing antidote. It is irreverent, brave, challenging, intelligent and often carries brilliant analysis and debunking of the media’s campaign against the Yes movement. The fact that a serious and on-going targeted DoS attack has been launched against the site is proof it is making an impact.’
link to tinyurl.com
marraculous
Notic how the BBC is taking its shows to the Tory areas of Scotland, Kelso with its upper crust farmers, Strathallan public school etc.
Wonder when they will go to Montrose or Fraserborugh or Stornoway or Perth?
Greannach and squarego,
It’s not just me who sees the Stockholm Syndrome paralells, then…
As a native Dundonian I’m afflicted with Stobswell Syndrome. This is an instinctive distrust of all the alumni of the Dundee Labour party: Jenny Marra, George Galloway, Brian Taylor, Lord Mike ‘Twisted Firestarter’ Watson, the Lonely UKOK lady etc. etc.
O/t A neighbour noticing my YES badge remarked that he was still ‘swithering’ on how he would vote. Hates the Tory’s and libdems. But, his main worry was being refused the currency union – not happy about reassurances re bluffing and it would all be ok after a yes vote. His other fear was for how Scotland would fare being ‘alone’. Worried that the friends we have might not be enough. Still think he might vote ‘Yes’….but what he said was worth noting. I pointed him to Wings etc
Does anyone know if and/or why Danny Alexander was in Holyrood today? Just catching-up…
oche Aye the noooooo.
O/T Apologies
‘One of the world’s leading economists, Professor Steve Keen, forecasts that the UK is heading for a “credit crunch similar to Lehman Brothers” and that Scotland breaking away from the “political domination” of the UK Government is “probably a good idea”.
link to scottishtimes.com
It’s from April 2012 but still very relevant today.
Calgacus MacAndrews
Thanks for the clip of “Hermless”. Michael at his very best, a genius piece of songwriting.
Pity about his niece.
O/T apologies
On Scotland’s EU membership, Andrew Duff, LibDem MEP for East of England confirms “it is crystal clear that no matter which legal route is eventually agreed, the practical result will be the same: unanimous agreement by all 28 member states followed by ratification of that agreement by the 28 plus 1.”
link to tinyurl.com
cringe
Sorry to go off topic just something to get that blood pressure up a bit. The BBC has signed a deal with ATOS (£285million)to do there IT stuff.
link to bbc.co.uk
There is a report in the Daily Telegraph about Labours Andy Burnham’s latest intervention in the independence debate. Apparently he is claiming that if there is a YES vote people in Scotland will ‘be forced to drive on the left’
I ‘m not making this up, see:
link to telegraph.co.uk
Sorry, meant to say he’s claiming we will be forced to ‘drive on the right’ (I know we already drive on the left. My bad.
We already drive on the left, so that’s that argument fucked already.
Interesting comment on LFI site.
A lady mentioned she was now Yes after last night’s debate and was delighted when she accidently found LFI as she was a Lab supporter.
So even though the debate was not roundly praised, she must have found something that persuaded her.
What with Alexanders ridiculous 5K mortgage increase scare today, if all these over the last week dont have a negative affect on the polls, then what will they try next?
Violence? Terror anyone?
@Ian Brotherhood
Probably something to do with this.
If only this would happen in the BBC:”A converse of Stockholm syndrome called Lima syndrome has been proposed, in which abductors develop sympathy for their hostages” LOL
Haha! Still the worst argument ever – you get used to driving on the other side in no time. Two of my vehicles are left hand drive anyway, so that would just be motivation to fix them…
Andy Burnham? What does he have inside his head…dried peas?
Sure, the very first thing we will want to do is turn all our road signs around, dig up all our slip roads because they will be facing the wrong way and then sit there in our cars and go Oh Noess!!111 our steering wheels are on the wrong side!
I mean for FFS! This man is a shadow minister? Really?
Does anyone know if and/or why Danny Alexander was in Holyrood today? Just catching-up…
Purveying scare stories about interest rates I believe.
HandandShrimp says:
I mean for FFS! This man is a shadow minister? Really?
Nip down to his hometown of Liverpool and ask them what they think of him there.
Especially those campaigning for Justice for the Hillsborough victims.
If the Scottish Government has borrowing powers,does that mean that the oh so important but squeamish and over reactive and volatile markets can look to that repayment record from the Scottish Government when it comes to Independence? Is this another straw man biting the dust here?
Just wondering.
@big Jock.
“Stupid people are stupid because they can’t listen.”
Bang on.
They’re also stupid because they keep doing the same thing time and time again, and expect to get a different result.
Jock
Just read the article.
What struck me most, apart from the inane comment that Scots would be driving on the right, was the attitude that it was all about ensuring that Labour are in government, it was about saving Labour and sod the people.
“Mr Burnham told Holyrood Magazine: “I would feel really genuinely sad if Scotland votes for independence, not just for our own self-interest and in the extra difficulty we would face getting a Labour government in England but I also don’t want to drive up the M6 and get my passport out or have to drive on the right when I want to drive on the left.”
How many months have we got left of this bilge?
@Dick Gaughan says:
Thanks for the clip of “Hermless”. Michael at his very best, a genius piece of songwriting.
A great man. Pity he didn’t live to see September this year.
If on September 18th we all don’t do what we need to do, we really will be “Hermless”
I’ve just watched the debate from last night (still watching it, in fact), and I couldn’t help get frustrated at Stewart Hosie over immigration. Ruth Davidson’s attack on higher lower-wage immigration should have been easily rebutted by the truth that, when the immigrants in question are married to a UK citizen, the wages earned by either party in order for the non-UK/EU citizen to gain immigration status is currently unreasonably high because it’s pegged to London wages. I believe that’s what Davidson was referring to.
In an independent Scotland, the process would be FAIRER because this wage requirement would be linked to Scottish wages. It’s currently £18,400. That;s not a fair threshold for the Scottish economy.
He also had the chance to state the case of foreign student’s staying on after their degrees. Chance missed.
An independent Scotland is a chance to topple this Tory-Labour-Dem attack on immigration and turn it into something more positive. Hosie looked defensive.
@Square Go – JockHolm Syndrome…. Bravo!
Rev : “you can see the entire segment for yourself on the iPlayer” – I see what you did there…shitebag! (JOKE!)
Does knobhead Burnham not realise that his boss ‘Red Ed’ has already got them driving on the RIGHT.
Danny Alexander was giving evidence to the Holyrood Economy Committee, just all the usual lies and half-truths. MSPs failed several times to nail him to the table, haven’t done their homework.
Please excuse me if this link doesn’t work but this song makes me smile every time.
[youtube link to youtube.com
Stu, OT but important. When you announce your crowd funding appeal please keep it as simple as possible to send money. No third parties. Just bank transfer details or cheque address..
Seems the canny Jenny Marra studied Scots and also English Law…which should very handy once the great Assimilation begins post any NO vote
As a native Dundonian I’m afflicted with Stobswell Syndrome.
Like it.
Might I suggest that Andy Burnham might start driving on the left from now on if that’s what he wants? I am sorry if my desire to live in an independent, adult country interferes with a few things that Andy Burnham wants. Live with it, Andy Burnham. I’m not sure who you are, but you must be very important.
@Dick Gaughan
I thought Andy Burnham was one of the MPs who campaigned for the victims of Hillsborough?
This was on the record comments, don’t know why the issue isn’t about securities rather than ‘years left’
‘Why the better together campaign are desperate to deceive?
The wealth of a nation is based on “securities”. The securities that you hold as a country will dictate how strong that your currency is and at what rate and how much money that you can borrow against these securities. e.g.. If you own your house outright you can borrow against that “security” as the bank know that they have your house as collateral Securities for most countries are based on gold reserves held or by oil, if you are lucky enough to have that resource. Forget everything else for a moment and think about this. ONE day after a YES vote everything changes for both Scotland and the RUK. Better together know this and are terrified. The day after a YES vote the complete future oil reserves currently under the control of the UK government LEGALLY pass to Scotland and the RUK are left with less than 10% as defined by International maritime borders. The assessment of the future oil reserves held in Scottish waters are valued at anything between 1&4 TRILLION pounds! Maybe never in history have the people of a country had so much power in their own hands. These incredible assets will support any currency that we choose, will allow us to borrow at extremely attractive market rates and support a Scottish Central Bank should this be required at any time in the future. The RUK will be forced to go to the markets with current debts of 1.5 Trillion pound just having lost their greatest ever asset. How do you think that they will be viewed? Project Fear are aptly named, they, and not us have everything to lose.’
Jenny Marra said “I think if I was given a blank piece of paper now to draw up arrangements for our country, I think I might draw them up the way they are now.”
So she is happy for Westminster Tory governments to introduce the Poll Tax, Bedroom Tax, or indeed any tax not based on ability to pay on the people of Scotland.
“I thought Andy Burnham was one of the MPs who campaigned for the victims of Hillsborough?”
My understanding was that he opposed an investigation.
He only changed his mind when confronted by tens of thousands of Liverpool supporters chanting for justice.
To paraphrase Darh Vador “The Cringe is strong in this one.”
muttley79 says:
I thought Andy Burnham was one of the MPs who campaigned for the victims of Hillsborough?
Yet when he was part of the last Labour Government he refused to go against his colleagues over calls for a full independent inquiry. Say one thing for him, he had the bottle to go to Annfield for the memorial and try to explain it away. He might be an idiot but he’s an idiot with balls. He’s certainly not the worst.
(After Hibs, my footballing loyalties are to the Reds)
@Angus:
I was wondering that myself: has anyone actually listed all the places BBC Scotland has “taken the debate” to? I don’t recall many debates from the likes of Springburn, Larbert, or Sighthill…
Proud Cybernat says:
Aye, that is right the UK has unassailable debt, which is going up rapidly. The danger for Scotland is being IN a currency union with rUK. If they default,we would be in the middle of it. Much better to use the currency board, keep all our Freedoms and choices AND save paying their debt.
Not being awkward saying that, but the debt is not ours, and we are currently paying big money towards it. Maybe now is enough.
Ref the debate, I think the BBC are very selective where they have these, also would not be surprised at what may happen when they select an audiences. Last night the first 5 questions were from obvious unionists, the chair knew just where they all were and picked them to suit purpose.That continued throughout.
Marra, is just following the labour line, albeit in a confused way.She reflects party politics,to belittle their own country in the way they do, is shameful.
On Marra’s bipolar ethnicity:
We need only recall the vitriol thrown at Salmond when he dared to celebrate Andy Murray’s Wimbledon triumph, booed and derided because he did not cheer as a Brit, that is, wave the correct flag.
Concealing one’s country of birth is mandatory when in Rome.
@Elliot Bulmer: Most people in Scotland accept that there is a Scottish ‘natio’. The battle ground is in making people realise that that ‘natio’ will never be well served, nor truly flourishing, without its own ‘patria’ – without a system of well-constitued institutions, laws and liberties through which we can discuss and act upon our common needs.
The waters get muddy when you consider that Scotland does have its own ‘patria’: Scots law, Scottish institutions, Scottish freedoms, which are distinct from English law, institutions and freedoms.
What Marra and others seem to be saying is that Scotland’s existing patria must be considered inferior to the UK’s patria, and that to ensure this, Scotland’s patria must continue to be limited and constrained. I cannot imagine anyone seriously claiming Scotland to be both this natio and patria, yet also be a unionist.
@John Gibson: Stewart Hosie was generally fine but floundered badly, like John Swinney before him, when he stated the cost to RUK business of not having a currency agreement in place and subsequently was asked to put a figure on the cost to Scottish business. Both of them glaringly side-stepped the question. The SNP really have to sort something out there – it doesn’t look good.
My guess is that it’s because they’re sticking to Swinney’s “I don’t think about a No vote” mantra. I do agree, though, that it would at least be helpful to point out the cost to Scottish businesses, if only to strengthen the idea of a currency union being best for all concerned.
@Elizabeth: O/t A neighbour noticing my YES badge remarked that he was still ‘swithering’ on how he would vote. Hates the Tory’s and libdems. But, his main worry was being refused the currency union – not happy about reassurances re bluffing and it would all be ok after a yes vote.
Poor guy, and given he mentioned the currency union and “going it alone,” suggests that he’s being (once again, I’m not going to stop repeating this because it’s something that I think is vital to the debate) told by the media what the “important issues” are. And since the news say this is the case, it’s easy to think “well, I guess this IS important, then, I should be worried about it.”
Of course, everyone will have different ideas as to what’s “important,” but I seriously doubt the pound/EU/borders are REALLY the big issue for the vast majority of people over jobs, health, security and whatnot.
These attacks on the site are getting tiresome. Whatever happened to trashing bus shelters and mugging pensioners? I don’t know, the youth of today …
Andy Burnham – Shadow health secretary. Hes going to be a very busy man when the hospitals are flooded with traumatic injuries due to the massive motorway pileups caused by the Scottish Government changing the Road signs overnight.
Completely O/T, but I think I’m going to pass on CiF for a while.
link to theguardian.com
Words fail.
Calgacus MacAndrews says:
If on September 18th we all don’t do what we need to do, we really will be “Hermless”
What if we all turned up at the NorthBrit Labour conference next month and entertained them with a massed rendition of “Hermless” outside?
Hi Stuart,
Any reason why my earlier comment wasn’t approved?
Was it too big?!
Do you want me to go away! It is your blog, after all.
I can give you my real name, if you like, but I can’t use it publicly. “They” are watching us.
Thanks!
Piemonteis – re your point about spouse that requires a visa and the financial test:
when I married non-EU national I had only been back in the UK for about a year and half. Fortunately the financial test hadn’t come in but if it had, we couldn’t have lived here. I’d have been told to go live elsewhere. Around the time they brought in the new test I had several clients in Citizens’ Advice who were going to fall foul of the new test. They were all educated folk, but some had recently been students, one guy was an artist with variable income, the spouses often also educated. Anyway, the three or four cases I dealt with, we couldn’t find any way round the rules and I can only assume our own citizens, some perhaps from generation after generation of people who had worked to build the country were forced to live somewhere else for having the cheek to fall in love with a ‘foreigner’ and not be rich enough to earn the right to have such cheek.
When I spent a bit of time visiting better together on facebook, I found there was very little time for foreigners of the type we are speaking of. Immigration had to be seriously tightened up. Cases like the above were at best collateral damage.
Jenny Marra = NAAFI
(No Ambition And Feck-all Imagination).
O/T
http://www.scotpulse.com is currently doing a survey on currency for those that are interested enough to sign up.
@Dick Gaughan
In the doctrinal pursuit of less government – meaning fewer democratic rights for the masses – the trend worldwide is to send in riot police or army equipped with rubber bullets and water cannon to disperse placid citizens protesting over the lack of political change
The large group encamped outside St Pauls in London, for example, were first lampooned as going home for a shower, or nipping to the nearest pub for a pint, a jibe to make the rest of us laugh at their struggles when dragged away by police on the flimsy excuse they were blocking access to the church, and making the courtyard untidy. At least, I think that’s what the rector and the mayor said.
Some less tactful administrations send in professional agitators to cause artificial conflict and so give the state an excuse to use tougher methods. In Cairo and Kiev’s Independence Square, (irony noted) many are summarily shot and killed for their effort.
In civilised Blighty’s capital policed by the understanding MET, they get kettled, crushed, or pushed to the ground savagely. In genteel Edinburgh they’re herded into boring St Andrew’s Square park until told it is time to leave so the grass can be cut.
Quite a number were singing when beaten to the ground, dragged off, or shot.
Jenny Marra will say whatever pleases her bosses and gets Jenny Marra further up the ladder, from what I can see. A career trougher dreaming of retiring in ermine, no doubt. She’ll say and do whatever gets her up the political Scottish Cringe career ladder.
@ Taranaich: “The waters get muddy when you consider that Scotland does have its own ‘patria’: Scots law, Scottish institutions, Scottish freedoms, which are distinct from English law, institutions and freedoms.
What Marra and others seem to be saying is that Scotland’s existing patria must be considered inferior to the UK’s patria, and that to ensure this, Scotland’s patria must continue to be limited and constrained. I cannot imagine anyone seriously claiming Scotland to be both this natio and patria, yet also be a unionist.”
Good point.
link to bbc.co.uk
Is the wee ginger kid wearing St George’s Cross cufflinks or is that just me? I know the Lib dems were accusing him of going native but he might be doing that and then some again… (if it isn’t fraud in the US apparently :p)
@Taranaich – In truth these Brit Scots are nothing but disingenuous opportunists. They are only ‘conviction’ politicians when the get caught fiddling their expenses leads to a prosecution.
They thrive on nebulous terms like ‘I am a proud Scot’.
Proud of what? The wicked witch of the west, Maggie Curran, uses this often but she means Scot in a regional term – Proud Yorkshireman.
They should be confronted by:
So you consider Scotland is your country then, or just a region?
When Milliband/Cameron speaks about ‘the country’ on English matters then England is obviously the context and considered their country. How dos Scottish Independence break up England? Should we have a sign to tell viewers when my country/the country mean England / E+W / UK / UK & NI ?
Another Question should then be: If Scotland is your country and your nation but you want to be a member of the UK, why cant Scotland
a) keep all revenues and pay into the UK for shared services
b) Have a veto on key issues (via a vote in the Scottish parliament): Trident and foreign conflict, bedroom tax?
At the end of the day these Unionists want Scotland to be a region with some autonomy but this is not the pervasive Scottish public view and it should be better exposed imo.
Stuart
Take a look at “76 Apologies to the Scots,” front page or Scottish Independence section – Guardian website.
@Gallowglass – Danny Alexander will one day have to answer to the Scottish people, let’s hope it’s the 19th Sept
When Isobel Fraser interviewed Alistair Darling, he said:
“There’s a consensus among all the political parties that the settlement reached in 1998…… is not what we want at the moment”.
At 07:45
@Grouse Beater
You’ve lost me. Damned if I can figure out WTF your lecture on police tactics has to do with my (very) tongue-in-cheek comment. FWIW, my experience of demos goes back to the Grosvenor Square anti-Vietnam War demos and a load of “civil disobediance” actvities since. So I’ve been to a few.
If I ever figure out what point you’re trying to make, presuming you have one and aren’t simply blowing smoke out of your arse, I’ll get back to you.
Two ‘funny’ posts today, on the Gruniad and the DT.
Have they gone back to laughing, as fighting wasn’t working?
@ Dick Gaughan
He says he was a senior executive with the BBC.
Smoke is a definite possibility.
Conan_the_Librarian says:
He says he was a senior executive with the BBC.
Even if he was, that in itself is an alert signal
Smoke is a definite possibility.
Definitely a strong smell of haddock.
I don’t think he’s quite twigged just how many of us have fully functioning and highly sensitive excrement detectors.
er, I think there may be a copyright issue wae that video
blue nun spoiler
check out Andrew Neil’s twitter feed
On #newsnicht last year, Marra was famously unable to commit to the simple acceptance that 50%+1 for Yes is sufficient for independence to be achieved. Will need to have a wee search for that footage….
@Conan
It’s amazing, even when something is there in black and white to read Chinese whispers still rule.
On a topic about BBC Scotland I mentioned I was a former executive, meaning I have some inside knowledge that might help understand how that iffy enterprise works. I did not claim it was a life’s career. Where’s the “senior” bit? I kept my time there mercifully short. Having experience of how poorly BBC Scotland serves Scotland is better than not having any but making wild assertions about it. Remember, it was fashioned by a Scot with one eye on Westminster elevation. And boy, did the British Establishment let him know he was merely a Scot, as they will Darling.
@Gaughan
Okay, so politically you’re a tough some of a bitch. Why so defensive? I make a point the forces of British power are little different from other nations determined to quash dissent. Withdrawal of democratic and civil rights is endemic. Keeping Scotland tame is part of that swing, Alastair Darling the pleasant face of it, his utterances easy to contradict. What lies behind has yet to be fully exercised and will be far more difficult to ignore.
@Doug Daniel
I’m enjoying your remarks – agree with content and tenor; I keep wondering why so many of us Scots feel comfortable relating to Westminster politics and values, and come to the conclusion it can only mean we think less of our own culture. Theirs is something better to strive for. Yet the best of our output is universal in application.
For example, I saw the Glasgow Boys exhibition at the Royal Academy of Arts and was struck by how advanced they were in comparison to their Parisian contemporaries with whom they mixed and met. The realisation was in spite of the curators not choosing their best work. Reviews were good to excellent but being London, few were there to explain why those artists were ahead of their time, and ought to be praised still. And of course, they are hardly praised in their own country.
Having watched Marra over the last two years, I have come to the conclusion that she may be photogenic but that she’s rather on the thicko side. Everything she says and touches is factually incorrect and poorly researched, but watching her earnest pleading last night was pathetic. Then again, the LAbourite British nationalists do quite a bit of that these days.
Eh kent her uncle, and he’d be fair scunnered wi ‘er. He’d hae a pure minter.
@Grouse Beater
To me ‘executive’ is senior…
I’ve been fighting the good fight on many forums for about seven years now, using the same moniker (mostly) because it was a my nickname, back when I was both a biker and a librarian.
It’s a hostile world out there. I was threatened with outing by our friends at the News of the World during the Cheesegate affair; I told Euan that I would welcome a hack at my door, but he’d better keep his motor running. No hack.
Ah well.
To get back to the point, McColm pretended to be ‘one of us’ in his dealings with Mark, so ever since I’ve been very, very, wary of newcomers…
Conan
There are various levels of executives. I was head of a department at 36. I couldn’t leave fast enough.
I’m no newcomer here – I am the same guy who backed you up a few times when you got attacked in the Guardian.
I’ve no wish to parade my accomplishments or achievements or protest march scars, one reason I use a psuedonym. I join the throng to be part of a mass movement, to learn. Been on the site ages. If I can contribute to the sum total of knowledge of Scotland’s ills and enemies I’ll do that but I don’t assume I’ll be heard.
As for Dick – an entertainer so well known as he could be accused of slumming by participating on a chat website.
I don’t need to know he’s a crusty old communist (less of the “old,” Grousy!) who can still play a banjo standing on his head, naked, hammer and sickle tattooed to the soles of his feet. To relate to him, and you, all I need to know is that both support Scotland’s self-goverance. So, no wee cozy cabals, please. Asking questions makes friends.
I don’t know about “McColm” – my wife recommended me to this site – but I can tell you about Bowie.
David “Stay with us” Bowie, (born Jones) lives in a high security gated community in Malibu, California.
If it’s ineligible for Sean Connery, a Scot, to support independence because he lives abroad, it’s unacceptable an expat Englishman with a Swiss bank account can toss a one liner out from a chauffeur driven limousine, no doubt on his way to a posh night club on Pacific Coast Highway. Talented man aside, he didn’t even attend the Brit Awards.
@ Grouse Beater
Ex Scottish editor of the News of the World.
That’s all you need to know about him…
PS: Once automomy is secured will the Brit Awards be renamed, the rUK Awards?
Just a thought …
@Conan
Never thought I’d live to see the day the News of the Screws got closed down. Sadly, Murdoch flourishes…
Grouse Beater
I don’t need to know he’s a crusty old communist (less of the “old,” Grousy!) who can still play a banjo standing on his head
Ho, ho, quite the comedian, eh? Let me guess, that lofty position you held at the EBC was as head of the Comedy Unit, right?
Just for info, “Grouse Beater”, I’ve been posting on the Internet since 1992 and I have always posted under my real name. I’m prepared to stand by and back up any opinions I hold.
@Dick
No need to explain. I took you at face value.
Slainte!
Sounds familiar – she was saying much the same when she came up to Dundee a couple of weeks back. Wish I’d confronted her on the “My nation is Scotland” line with your suggested retort. She does like her governments “progressive”, I discovered, so long as they’re Labour and not SNP…
link to adamlearmonth.wordpress.com
@EphemeralDeception: In truth these Brit Scots are nothing but disingenuous opportunists. They are only ‘conviction’ politicians when the get caught fiddling their expenses leads to a prosecution.
Ever the optimist, I like to think someone is sincere until proven disingenuous. It’s just unfortunate so many politicians practically fall over themselves in their attempt to prove themselves the latter, almost as if they want to engage in self-flagellating, apologetic Proud Scottery.
Another Question should then be: If Scotland is your country and your nation but you want to be a member of the UK, why cant Scotland
a) keep all revenues and pay into the UK for shared services
b) Have a veto on key issues (via a vote in the Scottish parliament): Trident and foreign conflict, bedroom tax?
At the end of the day these Unionists want Scotland to be a region with some autonomy but this is not the pervasive Scottish public view and it should be better exposed imo.
That’s very true, and frankly, I don’t know why they feel they should shy away from it if that’s the case. If they truly feel Scotland’s simply a region, then what’s wrong with that point of view beyond disagreement with those who believe Scotland to be a country? I’m a resident in a land which was once the mighty kingdom of Strathclyde, which stretched from Dumbarton to Lancaster at its greatest extent. Genetically speaking, my family are from the Islands, and so are descendents of Dal Riada and the Lordship of the Isles. Yet I consider myself a citizen of Scotland, and consider it to be both natio and patria. If you think Scotland should only be considered a region, then don’t shy from it. Be honest about it.
Speaking of genetics, has anyone else noticed the unnerving tendency for people to bring up names? Pro-Union commentators with names like Stewart or Cameron instantly bring up their genetic heritage as some sort of proof of the union. Usually they’re the same people who lament the fact that Scots diaspora in England, Wales and Northern Ireland don’t get a vote. It’s a really uncomfortable line of thinking for me. Humza Yousaf’s name isn’t particularly rooted in traditional Scottish nomenclature. Neither is Aamer Anwar’s, or Linda Fabiani’s – but that doesn’t stop them from backing Scottish independence any more than Anas Sarwar’s or Mark Lazarowicz’s stops them from backing the Union. My very pro-independent aunt’s maiden name is Mureithi, ferchrissakes!
When you start to bring names into the debate, that takes us dangerously close to bringing genetics into it.
Taranbaich
Fair points, Taranaich, except I think names such as Fabiani go right back to the Romans in Scotland, and forward again through any amount of key aspects of our culture. In addition our clan chiefs were proficient in Latin taught to them in French and Italian universities, and there was the not insignificant incident involving a certain private secretary called Rizzio.
Your whole analysis falls down because it adopts a particularly rigid definition of nationhood that takes no account of the instances where it is understood by many people to be different from statehood.
Marra, whom I dislike intensely for a number of reasons, is entitled, as any Unionist is, to feel that she has Scottish nationhood within a wider British state, just as any Nationalist who feels statehood and nationhood need to be identical is entitled to oppose Scotland’s incorporation in that wider state.
Frankly your argument rests on the most basic of polemical tricks which is to assert a specific meaning of a contested term and then accuse others who prefer one of the other widely-held understandings of being incoherent. In this case you assume that nation and state must be coterminous, as indeed you would, being a Nationalist. But that is an ideological rather than a semantic preference. It is neither inconsistent nor unreasonable for a non-Nationalist to see this question differently. Accepting that a nation and a state can be different things is, after all, the point of being a Scottish Unionist.