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In Scotland’s corner

Posted on March 10, 2018 by

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  1. 10 03 18 07:56

    In Scotland’s corner | speymouth

390 to “In Scotland’s corner”

  1. jimnarlene says:

    Ding, ding,seconds out, round two.

  2. Street Andrew says:

    She really does look more and more like Kim Jung Thing.

    Funny you never see them in the same room together…..(?)

  3. Lollysmum says:

    Bring it on

  4. Les Wilson says:

    Ha Ha, there is truth in this. Well done Chris.

  5. gerry parker says:

    Another ‘belter’?

    Well done Chris.

  6. Highland Wifie says:

    Never mind Hamish. We’ve all got your back.
    And if there’s blood she’ll be nowhere to be found.

  7. Robert Louis says:

    Great cartoon. It sums up the cringing hypocrisy at the heart of the Tories in Scotland. Only this week, the fishermen of Scotland found out AGAIN! (they were shafted by the Tories in 1970s, and Thatcher) that Tories lie to Scots with every single breath. They were promised, ‘leave the EU, and the fishing grounds will be all for you’ – only to find out, London intends using them as a bargaining chip to be traded away to help London (AGAIN!).

    However, what really marks out the current bunch of lying Tories in Scotland when compared with their predecessors, is the fact that they don’t have the personal integrity to openly state their support for Scotland being ripped out of the EU against its will, and London trying to steal powers from Scotland’s democratically elected Parliament.

    In any other part of the world, by now we would have civil war. No democratically elected national parliament would tolerate this behaviour by Westminster for one second. Not for one freaking second. They talk of a ‘constitutional crisis’, but I think it is more. London thinks they can play with (and ignore) the rules in order to get what they want, but that works both ways. In short, if London doesn’t play by the rules, then nor should Scotland.

    Call the referendum, and don’t even bother asking them for some section 30 nonsense. The ‘constitutional norms’, as London likes to put it, no longer apply. We have a clear triple lock democratic mandate from both the parliament and the electorate for the referendum. Time to use it, and stop p*ssing about arguing endlessly with these lying clowns in London. If they don’t respect our Parliament and OUR government, they should hardly be surprised when we don’t respect theirs in London.

    Call the referendum.

  8. starlaw says:

    She does look like The N Korean leader. Bet he’s not to pleased about it.

  9. Robert Louis says:

    Starlaw at 0805 am,

    I think that might qualify as comment of the year.

  10. Robert Louis says:

    Their is a good piece about Keith Brown today, who is standing for SNP depute. Worth reading, if you STILL don’t read ‘The National’.

  11. X_Sticks says:

    Nailed Chris. Are we at the point yet when we can call the ‘Scottish’ tories ("Tractor" - Ed)s and still be politically correct?

  12. Marker Post says:

    I was going to agree with Robert Louis. “Stop p*ssing about arguing endlessly, and call the referendum now”

    But then I thought.

    WE know they’ll lie. WE know the “freezer” for devolved powers is a lie, with powers to be defrosted “when conditions allow”. WE know that Mundell is a toady that will say anything to squirm his way until the end of an interview. WE know the fishing rights are a bargaining chip. WE have all the evidence we need. WE don’t need any more.

    But I think the point is that THEY are starting to realise it too. THEY being the 55%. When even the fishermen are complaining, then the Tory card is definitely marked.

  13. Robert Louis says:

    x sticks at 0818am,

    x sticks, that point was reached in 1707 – they are of the same mould as those who sold out Scotland, against the wishes of Scotland’s people, for their own personal gain back then.

  14. heedtracker says:

    Funny tragic.

    Brexit UK, floats like a turd, gives you Hep B.

    Who’d be a Scottish fishfolk er, sucker today too.

  15. Morgatron says:

    I have never had anytime for the north east fishermen. How many times have been sold down the Atlantic and still they come back for more. They are a greedy,selfish lot and deserve everything thats coming to them.As for Bertie Armstrong who is a deluded bampot of a leader no one listened to the warnings, no lessons learned from the past, removed two great Mps in Alex & Angus and now find out again the tories have used them as fishbait.As long as we have self centred fellow Scots like the fishermen we will never reach independence and i dont feel one bit sorry for them.Ok a bit of a sweeping generalisation from me but hope you get the gist. These fools really make my blood boil.

  16. yesindyref2 says:

    Hamish, don’t forget to keep one eye on the referee. Oh, silly me, sorry to insult you.

    Yeah, don’t let the Tories off the hook, they have a lot to answer for, which is kind of difficult because they don’t even understand the questions.

  17. Bob Mack says:

    The great boxer Max Baer once got into the ring to face Joe Louis. He said, “I tried to show I was very confident,but when I looked over at Joe,I could tell he wanted to go home early ”
    You know the rest. Hamish is our Joe.

    Another keeper Chris.

  18. Macandroid says:

    x sticks at 0818am

    They are actively trying to keep our country of Scotland ruled and subjugated by another country i.e. England. So yes, I do think they are (“Tractor” – Ed)s.

    Can we still hang (“Tractor” – Ed)s? Tories love a good hanging and it would be rude not to oblige!

  19. Morgatron says:

    Sorry Chris, you toon started me again. Its spot on.

  20. heedtracker says:

    Morgatron says:
    10 March, 2018 at 8:27 am
    I have never had anytime for the north east fishermen.

    But they are lied to, by the most aggressive tory professional liars, on a beeb Scotland gimp scale. Bertie Armstrong, a very toryboy tory tells them they’re going to be the next Iceland, in the UK, keeping 90% of UKOK fash.

    Here’s another one, stinky olde The Graun, desperately trying to get Scotland to vote Leave, 2016. Wonder why?

    Fire in their bellies, even, waxed toryboy Severin. Not sure how many stinky olde The Grauns are bought in the Broch and the Blue Toon.

  21. wull2 says:

    Don’t fight using the rules, they wont and never have unless it is their rules.

  22. Famous15 says:

    All my life I have wondered why Unioists are Unionists because it is so patently not in most of their interests to believe that. Many are just deluded and go with the posh set but a few are actually better off being better off with the Tories. These better off ones make up a tiny proportion of the population but have a huge wannabe following.They sustain grudge and division based on the shallowest of human needs.Take sectarianism for example. I cannot go on with this.Is there a psychiatrist in the house?


  23. Perhaps Mundell and his 12 Apostles will resign in protest.
    Davidson certainly will. Oh look, a walrus.
    They didn’t even go through the farce of the Supreme Court this time.
    Holyrood officially has no devolved power on anything.
    The Tories have returned Scotland to militarily occupied colony status.
    WE are an occupied nation. We are suppressed and imprisoned by our larger nation to the South.
    Mundell is Lord Haw Haw, and we know what happened to the original TRactor after WW II.
    Over by October. Let’s get the fuck out of this corrupt wee Union now.
    If England’s Elite can ride rough shod over the rule of law, so can we.
    They have blown it. Davidson is toast.
    Cairns, stop making me so angry, ya wee genius.

  24. Scotspine says:


    We need to pile into that ring too.

    This time round, I think we all know its for keeps.

  25. heedtracker says:

    WE are an occupied nation. We are suppressed and imprisoned by our larger nation to the South.”

    We are a nation that is endlessly brainwashed by likes of BBC Scotland to vote AGAINST our interests and vote FOR the interests of the tories, red and blue.

    Its for our own good you see, we’re far too stupid to run our own country, Scotland. Just ask likes of Donalda, Brewer and Bird.

  26. galamcennalath says:

    We word of advice for Hamish. He won’t play by Marquess of Queensberry Rules. Expect dirty tricks.

    As for Ruth ‘Nae Surrender’ Davidson. She has only survived this long because she has the media watching her back and protecting her. She has fought elections at every level (even council) on the single issue of the constitution. And now, when constitutional matters have become prominent, she is hiding. Or should I say is being hidden by her loyal media.

  27. OT I’m looking forward to Patrick Harvie, or is it Harvy?, WATP Two Jobs It’s The Law Bigot Professor Tomkins,7 times serial political failure Murdo The Queen’s Eleven Fraser, Neil The Lightbulb Findlay, Monica Lemmon, and That Other Dick, ‘The Scarf’ Leonard, and James ‘I Will Not Sit Down’ political Reject Kelly as they link arms at the head of the illegal march on Ibrox tomorrow morning leading the True Loyal Sons of William ACAB (All Cops Are Bastards)gang of nutters. It is recommended that they wear dark clothing.
    IF there is violence or death tomorrow, I expect this lot to resign in shame.
    Perhaps Davidson will get her tank and Union Flag out of moth balls for the occasion.
    If we don’t get our way, threaten violence and murder. It worked for the DUP.Thugs march through the streets of Glasgow on a Sunday morning because their ‘civil liberties’ must be protected.
    If somebody dies tomorrow, may you all rot in your belief system’s version of Eternal Damnation.leading the True Loyal Sons of William ACAB (All Cops Are Bastards)

  28. Socrates MacSporran says:

    A good cartoon with which to end a fraught week Chris, well done.

    I read the online Guardian every day, because there are one or two diamonds in the dross, and, at least they do not give the oygen of publicity to tubes such as Wilson and Monteith in the Hootsmon, or Torrance in the Herald.

    Perhaps THE political speech of the week, was delivered by Mhairi Black to that Commons committee, but, there is not one mention of it in the Guardian.

    That is how little those inside the London bubble think of Scotland and the Scottish MPs. It gets me really angry, Mhairi’s was a terrific speech, totally ignored by the one UK-wide national newspaper which should have supported her.

    Time we were out of this unholy Union and independent again.

  29. Morgatron says:

    Morning headtracker.
    I totally get it what your saying, but to be continually gullible just screams bunch if chancers and Im alright Jack. They are gready to the expense of their fellow Scots and then greet like weans when it doesnt and never was going to go their way. Thanks for posting the article, interesting read.

  30. Robert Louis says:

    Jack Collatin at 0933am,

    but, but, but Patrick Harvie of the Green party told us that this is just ‘freedom of speech’. In reality, it is of course ‘Freedom of HATE speech’.

    Slow handclap for the bigot enablers, Patrick Harvie and Labour’s James Kelly. This might not be what they intended, but they were repeatedly warned that THIS is exactly how the bigots would see it. It is merely the beginning.

    Well done, chaps. Well done.

  31. Ken500 says:

    Not all fishermen take the bait. They should not be put into the same hokey, stinking, sinking basket. Many fisherman and farmers (in the NE) totally support the SNP and donate exceptionally. They want to reform and improve their industry. Increase sustained production,

    The farmers and fishermen have been fed lies for years. Just like the rest of the population. The tide will turn. Westminster are trying to take their rights, They have in the past. There is now more awareness,

    The Tories – unionists made gains in the NE because of lower turnout. Not gained support.. it was raining, people were just sick fed up of the electoral process. No wonder? They will be more engaged now with their livelihoods being threatened. A totally different situation.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. The only Party standing up for Scotland and fishing and farming rights, always have been. Any problems were being resolved with SNP representation. Changed innovative methods.

    It was lower turn out that led to unionist gain in the NE. Not the neccessary increased support.. in light of rapidly changing curcumstances the tide can turn and change rapidly. Before even more damage is done to the economy as a whole.

  32. HandandShrimp says:

    That is the most visible that Ruth has been for the last couple of months.


  33. auld highlander says:

    Watch out Hamish, ye can’t trust that slippery slimy barsteward, he’s well known for his dirty tricks, keep yer guard up and when you see yer chance, GO FOR IT……………..

  34. Jon Drummond says:

    Chris, your depiction of Ruthie becomes all the more grotesque with time but even more accurate. Well done.

  35. Ken500 says:

    A Scottish central clearing bank, is needed now. For so many good reasons. There is one being set up but is needed urgently. Tout haste.

    It’s in the water. The urgency is building, feel it in the air building. A second Indy Ref is coming soon. The buzzz is building. Preparations are being made in the background. Administration being put in place, Fighting talk from Keith Brown. The next deputy? A safe pair of hands of good sense and responsibility. Dedicated.

    Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Simple. Focused and aware. The alternative is unthinkable. The Scotland’s economy trashed again quite uneccessarily for no good reason.

  36. Tinto Chiel says:

    Hamish looks very calm about it all. Ruthie didn’t do very well in the Sky poll, I hear.

    Time for her to throw in that towel, I think.

    Jack Collatin @9.33: don’t worry, I’m pretty sure Patrick Harvie has never seen the inside of a football ground, otherwise he might not have been so keen to defeat the Act.

    I always laugh at your Dick “The Scarf” Leonard jibe so have found a nice present for you:

    Wrap up warm now.

  37. Flower of Scotland says:

    I thought that was Kim………the N Korean leader too!

    However I think Kim is much more clever than Ruth! Ruth has no hopes for Scotland or its people she only really cares about herself and the Tory party.

    Neither does Corbyn, he doesn’t care about Scotland. He just wants to keep Scotland,s resources to help the British State as in the country of England.

    And as for Vince Cable and Jo Swinson……….agh!

    We need Independence and very soon.

    Great cartoon Chris!

  38. Fred says:

    Ruth Davidson playing the victim over online abuse due to her sexuality is at variance with her calling a Labour MP “A shovel-faced lesbian!”

  39. Proud Cybernat says:

    Nice one, Chris. Just one question though – shouldn’t Hamish have the gloves off?

  40. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:


    UK, “Don’t use fishing industry as Brexit bargaining chip”

    Ireland/EU, “Fisheries negotiations must remain centre to EU Brexit talks”

    Fishermen put their trust in the Tories. They should have known better.

    Same as large scale farmers. They usually support the Tories. Now their buddies plan to destroy their industry with cheap and nasty imports.

    Hell mend anyone who supports the Tories. They only want power, they don’t have anyone else’s interests at heart.

  41. Macandroid says:

    galamcennalath @ 9:21

    Hamish will be using South Queensferry rules. Say no more!

  42. Gfaetheblock says:


    Scotland has clearing banks (BoS, RBS), a central bank (BoE) and is setting up an investment bank.

    These are all different things.

  43. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Fred @ 10.14am

    Please, get it right; ‘Colonel Yadaftie’ described HERSELF as: “a shovel-faced lesbian.” Although, it may be that she was quoting what someone else had called her.

    Just because the Unionists lie, twist, and misinform, and make wee errors of fact (cough), does not mean we have to follow them.

  44. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Forgot to ask – can I take it John Bull is in the Blue corner?

  45. Scott says:

    Hi Nana as I am not sure how you do these links maybe you can and let people remember what the Tories do with fishing.

    Scotland ‘snubbed’ in EU fishing talks

    Scotland ‘snubbed’ in EU fishing talks – BBC News

    Not easy for a 80 year old to master these things.

  46. Ken500 says:

    Parliamentary Channel

    Holyrood EU Continuity (Scotland) Bill

  47. dakk says:

    Perfectly illustrated Chris.

    We will need throw in a few below the belt fly ones to get the better of that Great Brutish opponent.

    Not like John Bull will ever play fair, that’s for sure.

  48. Nana says:


    Here’s your link archived, and for anyone interested I have posted a lot of links on the previous thread.

    Terrific cartoon as always Mr Cairns

  49. Robert Louis @ 9.41 am
    Tinto Chiel @ 9.55 am
    I am often alarmed about how naïve Patrick Harvie/Harvy comes across.
    He clearly is not a ‘football man’, and Kelly, Fraser, and Tomkins must laugh their heads off that the Greens are in bed with them on this bigoted sectarian BAD SNP nonsense.
    The last thing the Billy Boys and the Fenians want is Freedom of Speech. Freedom to hate and malign. Harvie, get your arse in gear.
    I repeat, if somebody dies today, I demand that they all resign.
    In 2018, the mobs rampage through our streets, with nothing but hatred, violence, and destruction on their minds. But it sells papers, and keeps the Proddy Kafflick nonsense going.The dog collars will be happy at their pulpits this morning preaching harmony and understanding; aye, right.
    I look forward to Ruth waving her Butcher’s Apron as the ‘parade’ passes by.
    Ye blocks, ye stones, ye worse than senseless things.

  50. Fred says:

    @ Socrates, Calling a spade a spade! Angela Eagle was referred to as a “shovel-faced lesbian” by Ruth Davidson, whether she referred to herself as such is neither here or there! She’s no stranger to the gutter!

  51. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 10 March, 2018 at 7:59 am:

    “They talk of a ‘constitutional crisis’, but I think it is more. London thinks they can play with (and ignore) the rules in order to get what they want, but that works both ways. In short, if London doesn’t play by the rules, then nor should Scotland.”

    Have you, perhaps, missed the whole point, Robert Louis?

    Which is that those rules are, first of all, Westminster’s applied interpretation, of the rules and are all about the, “constitution”, of the United Kingdom and those rules of the constitution of the United Kingdom are very clearly written down, agreed and were created by, “The Treaty of Union”, of 1706/7.

    That being so we must, (before we consider anything else), consider exactly what the term, “Constitution”, actually means.

    I long ago looked up exactly what is defined by the term, “constitution”, and I found two definitions:-

    constitution – noun: constitution; plural noun: constitutions:-

    1. a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

    Example:- “Britain lacks a codified constitution.”

    synonyms: charter, social code, canon, body of law, system of laws/rules:

    Example 2:- bill of rights;

    laws, rules, regulations, fundamental principles;

    synonyms: charter, social code, canon, body of law, system of laws/rules.

    constitution 2 – the composition of something.

    Example:- “the genetic constitution of a species.”

    synonyms: composition, make-up, structure, organization, construction, arrangement, configuration, framework, form, formation, anatomy, shape, design.”

    So, ignoring the common made Britnat error which wrongly claims that, “Britain lacks a codified constitution.” because the writer has obviously mentally accepted the Westminster propaganda brainwashing that wrongly conflates, “The United Kingdom”, as being synonymous with being, “Britain”. then plainly the written constitution of the United Kingdom is exactly as stated in the Treaty of Union 1706/7 and thus, “The United Kingdom”, actually does have a codified constitution that, furthermore, is confirmed by both of the signatory parties by their respective parliaments having as their penultimate actions passed their independent kingdom’s Acts of Union. Their final respective actions were the English Parliament’s winding itself up, (permanently), but where the Scottish parliament was legally prorogued.

    Thus the Westminster Parliament, which began on the 1 May 1707, is, constitutionally legally a bipartite United Kingdom parliament of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms. as agreed by the Treaty of Union and ratified by the respective, kingdom’s passed Acts of Union.

    Since that date there has been no further codified constitution of the United Kingdom – it thus legally remains as constituted by the written constitution of the Treaty of Union 1706/7.

    Now we come to the bare bones of the facts and they boil down simply to the difference between the legal sovereignty in the respective partner Kingdoms when they signed the treaty in 1706/1707. In England, (the Kingdom), that sovereignty was and is presently legally held by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth of England but not by Elizabeth Queen of Scots. In the English kingdom the royal Divine Right to Rule of Monarchs was legally delegated to the Parliament of England in 1688 by the English, “Glorious Revolution”, but the Kingdom of England parliament was ended on the last day of April 1707.

    In Scotland the monarch is not sovereign and, under Scots law, the people of Scotland are legally sovereign.

    Thus there is no legislative change in legal sovereignty since 1706/7. Thus Westminster remains legally sovereign in the kingdom of England countries but has illegally assumed itself to be sovereign over the kingdom/country of Scotland and there isn’t any codified constitution that says the legally have the sovereignty over Scotland that Westminster has assumed it has.

    Now – how will that play out when this matter eventually arrives at an international court? That international court will be the one often called, “The World Court”, but is officially, “The European Court of Human Rights, (ECHR).

    Do they really fancy their chances in the ECHR? At the same time as they are attempting to leave the EU?

    Now that brings up another concept. The concept of being recognised as an independent country has no real legal definition but depends only upon being recognised as such by the rest of the Worlds established nations.

    So, unless they can come up with a, “Codified constitution of the United Kingdom”, (which doesn’t exist), it boils down to who is sovereign over Scotland and to who can make their claims of sovereignty over Scotland stick as per with other countries accepting their sovereignty.

    The only codified constitution of the United Kingdom is the Treaty of Union and that clearly states the United Kingdom is a bipartite union between two equally sovereign Kingdoms and has not even one mention of country or countries in the entire document.

    You can read it here:-

  52. galamcennalath says:

    John Bull has always personified England (not the UK). Although with many South British confusing England and UK, John Bull’s identity gets blurred.

    His creator, Dr John Arbuthnot, was clear about John’s identity as an English yeoman. He also created the character of Peg, his sister, who personified Scotland.

    CHAPTER II. The Character of John Bull’s Sister Peg,* with the Quarrels that happened between Master and Miss in their Childhood.

    * The nation and Church of Scotland.

    John had a sister, a poor girl that had been starved at nurse. Anybody would have guessed Miss to have been bred up under the influence of a cruel stepdame, and John to be the fondling of a tender mother. John looked ruddy and plump, with a pair of cheeks like a trumpeter; Miss looked pale and wan, as if she had the green sickness; and no wonder, for John was the darling: he had all the good bits, was crammed with good pullet, chicken, pig, goose, and capon; while Miss had only a little oatmeal and water, or a dry crust without butter.

    A Family of Equals? Nah, Master and Miss.

  53. Glamaig says:

    the quote was ‘two short-haired, flat shoes, shovel-faced lesbians with northern accents’ referring to both herself and Angela Eagle

    sickeningly arse-licking article here – also shows how far Ruthies star has fallen since then

  54. Proud Cybernat says:

    Mr Peffers – a question.

    Why is ‘the Constitution’ a reserved issue? What is meant by this? If it means the Treaty/Act of Union then surely that cannot be solely ‘reserved’ to the UK Parliament?

  55. Robert Peffers says:

    Meant to say, great work Chris. Now you watch the state of your elbow joins – you don’t want to get repetitive strain injuries by repeatedly hitting those nails on the head.

  56. Auld Rock says:

    Robert Louis, they’ve thrown their own rule book out so who needs a Referendum, we have the majority of MP’s so just give them notice that Union is ended and walk out. If we don’t act quickly our economy is going to be ruined by them for this is what they want – Scotland on its financial knees. They starved Ireland and look whereit got them.

  57. Robert Peffers says:

    starlaw says: 10 March, 2018 at 8:05 am:

    “She does look like The N Korean leader. Bet he’s not to pleased about it.

    See me! Ah’m afu conter. Ah jalouse the N Korean leader luks afu like Rooth the Mooth. Ah jalousie she’ll no be muckle prood aboot yon aither.

  58. galamcennalath says:

    Auld Rock says:

    they’ve thrown their own rule book out so who needs a Referendum, we have the majority of MP’s so just give them notice that Union is ended and walk out

    With first-past-the-post a majority is a shuggly peg. In 2017 the SNP had a landslide result from just 36.9% of the vote. You could argue fptp is used at WM to form governments with well under 50% who then go on the rampage!

    However, the international standard for independence must be 50%. The SNP did achieve this in 2015 however.

    I’m not against independence by any democratic means. If a general election was turned into vote for independence, that was made clear during campaigning, and the SNP got 50% then I don’t see what is wrong with that.

  59. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 10 March, 2018 at 8:15 am:

    “Their is a good piece about Keith Brown today, who is standing for SNP depute. Worth reading, if you STILL don’t read ‘The National’.

    Be aware, Robert Louis, that, “if Wingers still don’t read the National”, and some will not be in no position to obtain hard copies if they are in more isolated areas, then it is a total waste of time posting a link to an on-line National article for the National on-line goes behind a pay-wall unless the would be reader is already subscribed.

  60. TD says:

    Several commenters make reference to the UK government “breaking the rules”. They are not – the rules under which they operate clearly state that Westminster is sovereign, can legislate as it sees fit for Scotland and can basically ignore the Scottish government and parliament if they wish. They can abolish the Scottish parliament if that suits their agenda.

    Of course there are other rules – Scots law – which state that the Scottish people are sovereign. This is incompatible with the Westminster devolution legislation so the question arises of which utimately takes precedence. That is a question which will probably need to be determined in court at some point. Seems to me, the current situation presents the perfect opportunity for bringing a case.

  61. K1 says:

    ‘removed two great Mps in Alex & Angus’

    Now we know ‘why’ they focused so heavily on removing them.


  62. Liz Rannoch says:

    Great toon Chris, just tell Hamish to watch out for gouging of the eyes, kicking of the privates and beware the other two waiting out of shot – the tag team of the Brutish empire!

    Is there any point to our Continuity Bill now that the b’strds are taking the powers anyway? How to get the importance of this, out there? To the ‘ach it’s politics, a’m no interested’. To the ‘ah dinnae like yon Nicola Sturgeon’ etc.

    The boiled frogs.

  63. louis.b.argyll says:

    When only those hard tasteless British tomatoes and are available..

    (for the same price as current class 1 European tomatoes)

    ..they’ll say.. ‘’s only tomatoes’

  64. Dan Huil says:

    British nationalist hypocrisy, especially in Scotland, never fails to sicken. Where’s the spit-bucket?

  65. Ken500 says:

    Scotland needs a central bank as soon as possible. It is being done and is
    quite easily achievable.

    Does Tomkins know anything about Constitutional settlement. A part-timer. Comes across as a complete, ignorant. With total lack of knowledge. Googlygook. Totally irrational argument. Does anyone understand what on earth he is speaking about. Typical of some lawyers. Overbearing, conceit, ignorant and the total lack of respect. Totally disrespectful and rude. A bully. Typical lying Tory. A bore. Academic are supposed to be non bailed and impartial. According to their code of practice of their professional body. Being broken. With impunity.

    The first half hour+ of the debate (Holyrood Continuity Bill) was quite civilised (with some exceptions and lies being told) par for the course. Interesting and informative. Then it just disintegrating into irrelevant boredom. Droning on. (Some Tory liking the sound of his own voice. Stuff and nonsense)

  66. Bobp says:

    Why can’t the SG call a snap election,(When the timing is right) with a declaration of independence as their manifesto. A snap election will give the britnat press and media less time to lie,seek to brainwash ,and try and terrify the Scottish public for a 2nd time. And anyone who wants to boycott it. F**k em, majority vote stands.

  67. Ken500 says:

    The majority (unionists) did vote for it. Small mercies.

  68. wull2 says:

    The tomato’s from the Clyde Valley are not tasteless, don’t class us British tomatoes.

  69. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scott says: 10 March, 2018 at 11:08 am:

    “Not easy for a 80 year old to master these things.”

    Well, from an 80 odd year old, you managed the link just fine, Scott.

    It’s like riding a bike, (and some other thing I’ve forgotten about), once you master the way you are supposedly never going to forget how.

    One wee point, though, for YouTube links only, you remove everything to the left of the, “www”, bit of the link.

  70. Ken500 says:

    May has already lied to the EU commission. She agreed in December that NI would be part of the single market. Now she has reneged on the agreement.

    The EU issues finally took Thatcher down. Deja Vu. Things are now even more complicated. The lies will not help. May is between the devil and the deep Irony she Sea. If she offends the DUP they will dump her in it.

  71. Ken500 says:

    The SNP do not need a snap election. They have a relative majority. A snap election would just complicate things. Delays when urgent action is needed. Look at May in an even more complicated position. More delay and confusion. More and more untenable. Weakening all the time. Opposition building up.

  72. Andy-B says:

    Well done Chris that’s a belter and so true.

  73. Jock McDonnell says:

    We shouldn’t let the UK government turn the power-grab into an argument about common standards.
    Nobody is disputing a need for standards – the debate is whether they should be negotiated or imposed.

  74. Bobp says:

    Ken 500. Just my opinion Ken if we are backed into a tight corner. That westminster boot is not half hurting the back of our heads now.

  75. Proud Cybernat says:

    When the BBC and the BritNat Establishment cannot influence the Scottish public in sufficient numbers to bring about the compliant Unionist #RegimeChange they crave then they simply strip our parliament of its powers. Job done.

    Question now is – will Scotland stand for it?

    Well Scotland?

  76. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 11.38
    It is the Treaty it’s self that allows Westminster to decide what Holyrood can and canny write laws for.
    Thats what Scotland signed up to in 1707 and approved of in 2014.
    The Treaty only demands that Scot’s law is always kept separate,but ensures that Westminster can write it

  77. Liz Rannoch says:

    Notice how Pidlington has already started the ‘if we don’t get these powers it’s going to make prices rise’? SNP Baaad as usual. And that’s what the boiled frogs will hear.

  78. Liz g says:

    Me @ 1.37
    Oh and forgot to add….
    Right now Westminster has written a law (1998 Scotland Act)…that says
    Holyrood can write law’s for everything except what’s on a “reserved” list.
    That law is still in force today.
    The row is about Westminster changing what’s on that list

    Not that they can change it….because they can.
    But that they are hiding the change in a mountain of other issues.
    If they wanted to change the 1998 Devolution Act,they should bring that plan to Westminster, in front of us all and try.

    So before they get the reserved list changed, Holyrood is writing it’s own law’s to keep the current list from being able to be included in the European issues.
    But make no mistake while that Treaty is still in force…..Westminster can still alter the reserved list..They would just need to do it on it’s own.

  79. Socrates MacSporran says:

    TD @ 12.16pm

    That’s a good point you make at the end of your post, about the need to test, in court, the primacy of Scots Law over Westminster, or vice versa.

    The problem for Westminster is, the status of Scots Law is guaranteed in the Act of Union, so they would not, I think be too-willing to go down the court route with that hanging over them.

  80. Michael McCabe says:

    OT sorry for going off topic. Should we start a sweepstake to see how many times Richard leonard mentions the SNP in his speech. I am going for 27

  81. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 10 March, 2018 at 11:38 am:

    “Mr Peffers – a question.
    Why is ‘the Constitution’ a reserved issue? What is meant by this? If it means the Treaty/Act of Union then surely that cannot be solely ‘reserved’ to the UK Parliament?”

    Read it again, Proud Cybernat.

    There isn’t any other written down,(a,k.a.”codified constitution”), of the United Kingdom other than the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

    This treaty is not only a written down and agreed legal contract between the only two kingdoms still extant in the British Isles in 1706/7, but it plainly states that the two kingdoms involved legal systems cannot ever be other than independent.

    Although it doesn’t say so the only obvious reason they must always remain independent is that, in spite of negotiations between the two kingdom’s representatives, the two legal systems can never be reconciled with each other because of the issues of sovereignty. This is obvious when you consider that in 1320 the Scottish, “Rule of Law “, was defined and accepted by the then international authority Christendom, The Holy Roman Se and that stipulated the people, not the crown, were sovereign under the Scottish Rule of Law.

    Then, in 1688, the English Kingdom’s three countries Rule of Law, also changed from Divine Right of Kings and made the English monarchy legally delegate their sovereignty to the parliament of the English Kingdom. This made England, Wales and all Ireland into, “A Constitutional Monarchy”. That is, the monarch of the Kingdom of England,(three countries), remains legally sovereign but must legally delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of the Kingdom of England. In 1688 there was no legal United Kingdom so that change cannot be applied to Scotland.

    As the two, “Rules of Law”, are incompatible then they cannot be unified. Thus they must remain independent and, as both signatory kingdoms are equally sovereign, neither can take precedence over the other.

    So let’s define what is meant by, “Rule of Law”.

    “The restriction of the arbitrary exercise of power by subordinating it to well-defined and established laws.

    Example one – “when military dictators fall, the democrats who follow them must try to restore the rule of law”.”

    As you can see the rule of law is actually defined as being who has the power of sovereignty to use already established laws of the kingdom, country or state that already has their own, “Rule of Law”.

    It doesn’t take a lot of thought to see why the Rule of Law of Scotland and England can never be compatible. Basically in Scotland what the people say is the law but a whole nation will have disparate views so that means the people of Scotland must work by majority choice and that needs a delegated by the people parliament.

    In the English Kingdom, though, the monarch remains legally sovereign but only in the kingdom of England’s three countries and it is NOT a democratic choice of the people that makes or changes the laws but the Royal prerogative. Except, under only English law the Monarch of England has to legally delegate their powers to the Parliament of England. In other words while the people vote for their parliamentary candidate they are not delegating their own sovereignty to that parliament but that of their monarch.

    And here’s the catch – there hasn’t been a Parliament of the Kingdom of England since 1 May 1707. Westminster is not legally the parliament of England it is the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    So who is governing the Country or the Kingdom of England for every members is a UK MP.

    Westminster is acting as the de facto parliament of the country of England yet no one is elected to a parliament of England. Yet they use EVEL. Furthermore the very good reason there isn’t a written, (a.k.a. codified), United Kingdom constitution is because there is no United Kingdom constitution and there cannot ever be a United Kingdom written constitution.

    The best that can be done was done and written down in 1706/7 as the Treaty of Union. Westminster’s claims of sovereignty would never stand up to proper legal scrutiny, (and they know it).Which means also that the so called Supreme Court that Westminster concocted is also illegal.

    The only legally correct constitution, (see the definition of constitution), of the United Kingdom is the written treaty that united the two, equally sovereign, kingdoms and no matter what Westminster attempts to force upon the two kingdoms can never be made legal unless both kingdoms agree to it but there is no real Kingdom of England parliament to agree anything which is why Westminster is only still a de facto parliament of England but continues to call itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It is flim-flam now and it always has been.

  82. Ottomanboi says:

    José Mourinho is joining RT as a football pundit. Shocking cries, among others, MP Tom Tugendhat. RT is not a media channel but an organ of state influence, he opines, Just like the BBC and ITV Mr T….touché as they say in Holy Russia.

  83. Bob Mack says:

    Yes, Westminster can change laws, most notably criminal law, but they cannot change Scots civil law. Yes, they can outvote us by 10 to 1 in Westminster.

    What they cannot do, and it is a problem for them is remove the sovereignty of the Scottish people. The courts may well rule that that sovereignty is expressed by the elected representatives in Parliament, but that same ruling must also allow that the majority of elected Scots representatives can call for a section 30 for a referendum.

    They cannot have it both ways.

  84. Wullie says:

    Socrates MacSporran says:
    10 March, 2018 at 2:04 pm
    TD @ 12.16pm
    That’s a good point you make at the end of your post, about the need to test, in court, the primacy of Scots Law over Westminster, or vice versa.
    The problem for Westminster is, the status of Scots Law is guaranteed in the Act of Union, so they would not, I think be too-willing to go down the court route with that hanging over them.

    Why wait for Westminster when will our legal system stand up for Scotland. I do hope this is being pursued vigorously by the SG and legal high heid yins.

  85. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 2.32
    I like to think of it as a riddle wrapped in an enigma.
    Because if the arrangements didn’t make “no sense” back then,they make even less sense now.
    Unless of course you own land in both Kingdom’s.

    As you say Robert…
    They know fine well they can’t have a court shine a light on it.
    Up to and including the court of public opinion…. which in Scotland is the Only one that really matters… and I think May doesn’t understand this.
    But as long as more and more Scot’s do….so keep on tellin it Robert..

  86. Effijy says:

    I was going to record the Ireland vs Scotland rugby on Virgin ITV
    The summery of the event mentioned the names of Ireland’s top
    Two players and then a note from the Irish coach on how pleased he
    Is with the progress of 2 other named Irish players.
    Full stop?
    At least they mentioned who Ireland were playing.

    Scott Hastings has a commentary job today as a well known shill.
    I’m going to call all Edinburgh Tatooists today to see if I can confirm
    Scott and Gavin both have English flags inked on to their arses.

  87. Robert Peffers says:

    K1 says: 10 March, 2018 at 12:23 pm:

    “Now we know ‘why’ they focused so heavily on removing them.

    Well! K1, Some of us knew that before they did it and some of us, including the Rev Stu Campbell, told Wingers as much and that was before the Yoons did it. That is, thought, where the Westminster Establishment have the strongest weapons of Mass(Media), Destruction. The fall out from which is very far reaching.

    Wings is a bit like that old saying about horses and water. “Ye can fetch a Yoon to wings but ye canna mak them think”.

  88. cearc says:

    Michael McCabe,

    Nah, the rugby’s on, much more relevant.

  89. Old Pete says:

    Richard Leonard talking nonsense, the man is deluded at best. British Labour in Scotland appear to think they are the Scottish government the stupid, useless, numpties ain’t got a clue.
    New Independence Referendum soon please Nicola, very soon please we need to escape these loonies.

  90. manandboy says:

    This a very important map, detailing the territorial waters around our coasts, and helps to explain why oil, gas – and fishing, don’t get a mention in Theresa May’s speeches.

    In a nutshell, UK oil, gas and the UK North Sea fishing grounds are, for the most part, all in Scottish territorial waters.

  91. Robert Peffers says:

    @Liz Rannoch says: 10 March, 2018 at 12:42 pm:

    “Is there any point to our Continuity Bill now that the b’strds are taking the powers anyway?”

    Of course there is Liz Rannoch, but the aim is not just to educate the Yoons or waverers but to build and establish a legal argument and set the scene for an appeal to the EU parliament and a likely case to the ECHR, (European Court of Human Rights), also commonly known as, “The World Court”.

    It’s that argument I’ve been attempting to explain on Wings for years. I’m not a lawyer but that may be a good thing for I’m explaining things from the lay person’s viewpoint. I actually take great heart that no actual legal Eagle has, as yet, made my case seem wrong. Having mentioned it now I expect there will be some along soon, (it might take a wee while for them to arrive from Philadelphia.

    Philadelphia Lawyer:-

    noun (informal) – Philadelphia lawyer; plural noun: Philadelphia lawyers.

    a very shrewd lawyer, expert in the exploitation of legal technicalities.


  92. Ann says:

    Robert Louis 7.59
    Agree with everything you say.

    The Tories are acting like petulant, spoilt children.
    As far as I am concerned, whst is not theirs is not theirs to have, but they are prepared to no matter what the cost.

    It is now past the discussion change and the devolved nations should now walk away.

  93. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Bob Mack
    “The courts may well rule that that sovereignty is expressed by the elected representatives in Parliament, but that same ruling must also allow that the majority of elected Scots representatives can call for a section 30 for a referendum.”

    I’m presuming here, Bob, that you’re speaking of the UK parliament. So what the Scots MPs do when England’s 500-odd MPs out-vote them and vote down such a motion, what then? I’m just asking because I want this clear in my own head before I go forth and battle on Twitter.

  94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bob Mack @ 14:38:

    The courts may well rule that that sovereignty is expressed by the elected representatives in Parliament, […]

    Yes indeed, but the question then arises, “which Parliament?”.

    Before, there was only WM. Now, with the re-convening of the Scottish Parliament, that has changed everything at least three fundamental respects:

    + Holyrood now supplants WM as the true locus for the people of Scotland’s sovereignity, since here we are not “outvoted 10 to 1”, as you accurately represent the case at Westminster.

    + The re-convening of the Scottish Parliament, creature of WM as it may have been, also involved a fundamental change to the UK constitution, in that the creation was predicated on the principle that “everything not reserved is devolved”. While London can still do what it likes over reserved matters, it cannot unilaterally claw back the powers it freely surrendered (to the EU and to Scotland). The purely English notion of the absolute supremacy of WM cannot override that later constitutional change.

    + In the past, there was no Scottish locus to challenge the constitutional arrogance of the English, so they were able to impose their will on us regardless. That has altered with the establishment of a democratically-elected government with a mandate from the people of Scotland. It can, and it seems is also ready and waiting, to make a substantive legal challenge. The first Scottish institution in 300+ years with the will and power to do so.

    And if an (unavoidable, IMO) constitutional challenge is dodged by a court system under the thrall of English norms, the challenge will become political. But equally unavoidable.

    “Ding, ding”, (cringing) seconds out…!

  95. Robert Peffers says:

    @louis.b.argyll says: 10 March, 2018 at 12:56 pm:

    “When only those hard tasteless British tomatoes and are available..
    (for the same price as current class 1 European tomatoes)
    ..they’ll say.. ‘’s only tomatoes’”

    The, “Scotch”, Tomatoe thing is a bit of a myth, Louis.b.

    My old Granny used to check for Scottish tomatoes by pulling the green stalk bit from a tomato and smelling it. She knew if it didn’t have the characteristic minty smell the tomatoes were not Scottish.

    However, my Grandad, a great and trained gardener would tell me that it wasn’t really true but that it did indeed usually indicate foreign, (that meant in those days from other than Scotland UK countries).

    His explanation made real sense. Tomatoes very quickly begin to deteriorate when picked and if not bought soon after picking fresh will not have the minty smell from the wee green bit where the stalk was but will also taste less good. Thus tomatoes from further afield would be more deteriorated.

    As to hardness the explanation also makes good sense. Scottish Tomatoes will be greenhouse grown and thus will be artificially watered and quick grown. Heat is expensive, Those from warmer climates will not only be less fresh but will have been grown outside and grown slower but ripened faster and drier and that means harder.

    Anyway, what is very true is that in Scotland your bought tomatoes will indeed taste better and be softer.

  96. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bobp says: 10 March, 2018 at 1:10 pm:

    “Why can’t the SG call a snap election,(When the timing is right) with a declaration of independence as their manifesto.”

    You answered your own question, Bobp.

    The wee problem is of predicting a guaranteed majority result.

  97. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ken500 says: 10 March, 2018 at 1:19 pm:

    “If she offends the DUP they will dump her in it.”

    I think it was just yesterday I saw a report that the backhander to the DUP was settled and added to their next payment from Westminster. If so the DUP won’t give a damn.

  98. Liz g says:

    Liz Rannoch @ 12.42
    As I understand it Liz.
    Our Continuity Bill,is to prevent any gap’s in the law that Westminster could rush right in and fill.

    If Holyrood don’t agree to the Withdrawal Bill then that would leave a gap….and that’s where the Proper use of the
    “Westminster will not NORMALLY legislate for Holyrood stuff” gets triggered.
    As in somebody has to take care of these law’s, and if Holyrood can’t or won’t Westminster needs to.

    It’s like N.Ireland just now they can’t pass their Budget “as they – NORMALLY – would” so Westminster step in.

    So Holyrood if it won’t allow the Devolved Law’s to come back to it under the umbrella of the Westminster Withdrawal Bill ( which it won’t because its an incomplete package of powers)
    And Europe are not to have them….then that leaves a gap.

    Therefore Holyrood if creates a home for these powers, there is no reason for the “Not Normally” bit to be assumed by Westminster, as they can’t claim there is nowhere in legislation for these powers to go!

    At least I think that’s the point of the bill..mibbi no the Whole point….. and as ever I’m happy to be corrected!

  99. Proud Cybernat says:

    Does anyone know if Salond’s S30 request went to a vote in Westminster or did Camron, as PM, have the power to simply sign-off on it without it going to a vote in WM?

  100. Tinto Chiel says:

    “The wee problem is of predicting a guaranteed majority result.”

    Quite so. Even the mega-landslide SNP victory in the 2015 General Election only just attained 50% of the vote.

    Despite Thatcher’s cynical remark about a simple majority of seats being sufficient to make Scotland independent, we know that the lack of a clear 50+x percentage would provoke all sorts of attacks on its validity from the MSM.

    Seems to me that with the size of the Horlicks the Tories are making with Brexit, that nice majority percentage will tip our way in the next year.

  101. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 3.56
    It was a vote in the Commons.

  102. Cuilean says:

    Things shown as plurals: just add an ‘s’ at the end with no need for any superfluous punctuation e.g. boys, girls, dogs, shoes. Deer & sheep are only 2 exceptions.

    If 1 girl has 1 sword: The girl’s sword.

    If a bunch of girls (more than 1 girl) have 1 sword, in which they all share equal ownership: The girls’ sword.

    If the same girls (more than 1) own several swords (more than 1) and each of these swords have their own scabbards (more than 1): The girls’ swords’ scabbards.

    e.g. The girl’s swords’ scabbard. Means 1 girl has several swords (more than 1) but just 1 scabbard.

    This applies to everything.

  103. HandandShrimp says:

    Don’t know if it was nerves or what but Scotland butchered a real chance to win there with a some poor handling in the 22 spoiling some good play. Thought we had more or less sorted that in last couple of years.

    On top of that Aberdeen seem to have completely lost the ability to score goals. What on earth is that all about?

  104. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 3.30
    Then Westminster don’t have any involvement in the Scottish Referendum.
    A section 30 isn’t permission for Holyrood to hold Referendum’s, that’s always been a devolved power.
    And the current Holyrood Parliament have a mandate from it’s own electorate to have one.

    Not to have any say in how the vote is conducted,is not in their interests,but I don’t have a problem with it!
    Although the price for having that say is an agreement to recognise the result….. Up to them really…..

  105. Meg merrilees says:

    Old Pete

    just been listening to Leonard’s speech to conference – don’t make sense.

    He’s angry at the “complacency of the SNP” try telling that to the Glasgow female council workers getting their back pay sorted out by the new SNP council.
    … and….

    ‘..if it comes to the choice between the sovereignty of the market or the sovereignty of the people, I choose the sovereignty of the people every time!..”

    But he’s agin a second indy ref!

    Kezia didn’t look too impressed.

    I wonder if he can talk if you stop him moving his arms about?

  106. Grouse Beater says:

    On the ropes, Chris, if only that were true and permanent. Has to be an uphill battle to convince the naysayers and the waverers. The other side has the entire British establishment and media in their corner and no gloves on.

    Your essential weekend reading:

    Updated to include ‘austerity’:
    A very fine history film ignored:
    The trash at Geneva Car Show:

  107. Meg merrilees says:

    Proud Cybernat:

    This is the BBC’s explanation, in 2012, of the steps needed to allow a Scottish referendum in 2014….
    information given out in the old days when the establishment thought they had Scotland under control and could afford to tell us the truth ( or something closer to the truth than anything we get now!)

  108. Alisdair says:

    Mr Peffers @ 2.32

    That is without a doubt the single most beautifully clear explanation of my human right I have ever read/heard (and my ears are ringing). Thank you.

  109. TD says:

    Robert J. Sutherland at 3.32 p.m.

    “While London can still do what it likes over reserved matters, it cannot unilaterally claw back the powers it freely surrendered (to the EU and to Scotland). The purely English notion of the absolute supremacy of WM cannot override that later constitutional change.”

    I’m afraid London can unilaterally claw back the powers it granted to Scotland. Remember that in the UK there is not really any such thing as a constitution. The constitution, such as it is, consists of a mix of acts of parliament, royal decrees, convention, court rulings and custom and practice. They change the constitution quite frequently – for example it used to be the case that if a government lost a vote in the House of Commons, a general election followed automatically. Harold Wilson’s government lost a vote and then immediately tabled a vote of confidence, which they won. At a stroke, the “constitution” was changed.

    If we accept the English doctrine of the sovereignty of parliament, (that’s a big “if” in Scotland) then they absolutely can do whatever they want, provided they can get it through the Westminster parliament. If a case were to be taken to court in Scotland, and if the Scottish courts ruled that in fact the people are sovereign, the case would for sure go to the UK Supreme Court. Who knows how the UK SC would rule, but I think my money would be on them upholding the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty. Either way, I think our cause would be promoted – if we lost at the UK Supreme Court, it would be political dynamite. If we won, then the matter would be settled once and for all and we would have made a significant move towards independence.

    So the real question is: How would the Scottish Courts rule? Any QCs out there care to give an opinion? (And no, I’m not prepared to pay £5,000 a day.)

  110. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tinto Chiel says: 10 March, 2018 at 4:05 pm:

    “Seems to me that with the size of the Horlicks the Tories are making with Brexit, that nice majority percentage will tip our way in the next year.”

    I think you are very probably correct, Tinto Chiel, but – and it is a big but, if politics has taught me anything in going on 70 years of being a political animal, it is that you cannot take as read what SMSM are saying nor can you believe their opinion polls.

    About the best you can do is study trends and guess that the trend is pointing in the right direction. Then there is the certainty that the opposing campaigns will sway general public opinion and that is even if they are obvious lies to those who are politically motivated.

    Take the example of North East Fisher Folk. Anyone with any sense knows that the great days of the Scottish Herring Fisheries didn’t end because folk stopped eating herring. They stopped because the fishers emptied the fishing grounds and their catches declined. No one was better placed to see and understand what was happening but these fishers just carried on overfishing.

    It wasn’t the Scottish Fishing fleet that saw a limited revival in some species of fish in Scottish Waters but the EU and EU regulations. It is entirely plausible that if these North East Scotland fishers get their way now that they will once more overfish the Scottish fishing grounds.

    They were, after all, much involved in what are known in Scotland as, “black fish Landings”.

    As always the SMSM were fairly silent about these illegal landings and I think we all know why. If you don’t understand why you could always ask Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson who lost their seats and were a great loss to all who live in Scotland – not least the fisher folk of the North East of Scotland.

  111. TD says:

    Bob Mack at 2.38 p.m.

    “Yes, Westminster can change laws, most notably criminal law, but they cannot change Scots civil law. Yes, they can outvote us by 10 to 1 in Westminster.”

    I’m afraid that’s not right. First, Westminster can, under their rules, change any law anywhere in the UK. Second, the law states that no English court (which includes the UK Supreme Court) will interfere with decisions of the Scottish Courts on criminal matters, but the UK SC can and does rule on civil matters in Scotland. However, even this rule was arguably broken when the UK Supreme Court ruled on the case of Cadder, which was a Scottish criminal case with a human rights issue at its core. Because human rights is a civil matter, the UK SC had jurisdiction. But their ruling changed a fundamental tenet of Scots criminal law and has changed custom and practice of the police and courts in Scottish criminal cases.

    So actually, Westminster does what it wants, where it wants and when it wants.

  112. yesindyref2 says:

    That was a great performance by Scotland full of adventure and spirit, and sometimes it don’t go right, the difference being pretty well about 6 passes that didn’t get there.

    All they need to do is play the same but better, and that’s the first time for years I’ve been able to say that, though the’#ve been getting better the last 2 or 3 years. But it’s there now, they’re the equal of any team in the world and can go out there – home or away – with a real expectation of winning.

    As far as Rugby is concerned, Scotland is back. All it needs is a few more points on the board.

  113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meg merrilees @ 16:30,

    Leonard wotsisname is such a poser. The NorthBritLab problem is that it’s obvious to everyone with even half a brain (dilletante socialists excepted).

    They hope that by keeping on banging on with their lies and distortions eventually people will start believing them. Fat chance.

    How can you be so stupid, thinking that copycat soundbites about “sovereignty” from a party that has betrayed Scotland at every turn won’t sound totally lame and hypocritical to Scottish ears?

    NorthBritLab don’t own “sovereignty”, the idiots, so the more they mention it, the better for us.

    I used to think that, as far as indy is concerned, the latest Great Leader of Labour’s Northern Accounting Unit was the more dangerous of the two recent pretenders to the position, but now I’m beginning to realise that Dick the Dick (henceforth to be known as Dick Squared) is as flimsy as Sarwar the Dick.

    But then, where’s the fresh ideas and leadership quality for them to draw from? They are as stuck in the 1950’s as the Tories, and don’t have a clue.

    If it’s hard to see Rude Gal ever becoming FM, how much harder to see Dick Squared…?

    (Or any likely NorthBritLab successor, for that matter. It’s actually “cruel and unjust punishment” having to lead that mob.)

  114. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, back to Indy and all that, there’s something going on behind the scenes, I don’t know who and don’t want to know, and I don’t know how many, and I’m not going to tell you what it is, but keep it up, it’s a WINNING strategy 🙂

  115. Stravaiger says:

    Re: section 30 and ‘permission’in general, as sovereign Scots we don’t need a section 30. Nor do we even need to wait for the SG to hold a referendum. We could, at least in theory, raise the funds and set up our own referendum.

  116. wull2 says:

    Just vote SNP/SNP or YES, whatever comes first, that is as simple as I can make it.

  117. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    TD @ 16:49,

    With all due respect, I don’t agree, except insofar as you say that the “British Constitution” as it has developed is notoriously plastic, conveniently serving the interests of the UK Government of the day as it suits them.

    What has happened over the centuries is that there has been no locus to resist what has been no more than an English carpetbagging chancer’s charter. While all power was located in London, that has been relatively easy to sustain, with nothing more than an occasional flicker of resistance from Scottish courts.

    If you’ll please excuse me, your expressed view seems only too typical of the kind of Scottish deference we have heretofore showed. Time for more backbone!

    You see, this “unwritten constitution” notion is double-edged. Why must any change only advance the power of the regime in London? Nowadays we do have a serious entity – the Scottish Government – willing to say politically, and now perhaps also legally, “ahem, who decides?”.

    London governments of the past have always preferred to duck and dive when necessary, precisely in order to avoid any such challenge, fearing that previous manipulations might be revealed, Wizard-of-Oz style.

    However, if the current UKGov pushes its luck, as it in its ignorance and arrogance may feel compelled to do, it may find it has wandered into both a legal and a political minefield. (Though like its predecessors, it does currently seem to be hesitating.)

    The “British constitution” is a complete guddle which has brought us to the present impasse. The Brexit catastrofolly may be the final straw that destroys it through the contempt and ridicule which it richly deserves. It’s as antiquated and unfit for modern life as the crumbling old palace which hosts its miserable proponents.

    And the easiest way for us here in Scotland to solve that problem is becoming more obvious to more people by the day.

  118. Liz g says:

    Meg Merrilee’s @ 4.46
    Ye were spot on pointing out that the BBC were probably only reporting a version closer to the truth Meg.

    Westminster thought it had took care of any independence referendum by reserving The Constitution.
    So it gave Holyrood – The Right – to hold referendums, in the 1998 Devolution Act, (quite a normal function of government)
    so Holyrood have always had that ability.

    Westminster it seemed,had made it impossible for Holyrood to organise an Independence Referendum and kept that particular power only for itself.

    Except…. Alex Salmond persuaded David Cameron, to use that good olé Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster’s, to make the impossible, possible.

    Turn’s oot that the powers to hold a referendum on the Constitution can be used in Holyrood after all.
    Cameron also agreed the reason for makin this happen,was that the Scottish people had voted for a party with “holding an independence referendum” in their manifesto.
    While he did put a sunset clause on it…nevertheless that power was Devolved
    ……and Devolved because that’s what the Scottish people had voted for,thus setting the precedent that it is indeed legally possible after all.
    Not to mention, it avoided a Court case around Scottish Sovereignty.
    Which I suspect Alex Salmon, would happily have instigated.

    So therefore the only real reason to “try” to refuse doing it again is
    ….if the Scottish people don’t want it and/or it is thought that it was being forced on them by an out of control ideology obsessed administration….
    Sound familiar?

    I have always suspected that Alex Salmond never expected to win that referendum… But rather his victory was in setting the Precedent not only in the UK Parliament, but also within the Scottish population that we can have one anytime we vote for it.

    What was possible in 2014 is still possible now,and Westminster can only look like they are tryin to put obstacles in our path.

    Should they be that stupit!!! its only a hop skip and a jump till everyone in Scotland understood and was ready to assert that Sovereignty of our own.
    I’m sure Robert Peffers could testify to just how hard it’s been to get that concept past the UK media and into the mind set of the Scot’s.
    But we are in more ways than one “halfway there”
    Even the British Nationalist Scot’s, by way of sayin “not another one” acknowledge the existing possibility.
    Should Westminster choose to do the rest of the heavy lifting!
    Well nae argument here.

  119. galamcennalath says:

    I thought UKIP had been absorbed into the Tory Party, however from the stuff coming out of Labour it sounds like they also took up a share of fascist ideas.

    Are we about to see a situation where the North British branches of both Labour and the Tories are going to pretend to distance themselves from their own London HQ?

    London popularist xenophobic politics is now out of tune with Scotland. The Brit Nat branches here know this and respond by hiding from their own parties stances. Pathetic – continuing with their Union is being put above everything else. Have they no shame or decency left?

  120. Iain mhor says:

    At risk of collective groans and for those not wishing to plow through the price of salt, fish and liquor in the Treaties of Union, here you go:

    Article XVIII. ‘That the Laws concerning Regulation of Trade, Customs, and such Excises, to which Scotland is, by virtue of this Treaty, to be liable, be the same in Scotland, from and after the Union, as in England; and that all other laws in use, within the Kingdom of Scotland, do, after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in the same Force as before, (except such as are contrary to, or inconsistent with this Treaty) but alterable by the Parliament of Great-Britain, with this Difference betwixt the Laws concerning public Right, Polity, and Civil Government, and those which concern private Right; that the Laws which concern public Right, Polity, and Civil Government, may be made the same throughout the whole united Kingdom; but that no Alteration be made in Laws which concern private Right, except for evident Utility of the Subjects within Scotland

    Pretty much throughout the Treaties, the caveat “…alterable by the Parliament of Great Britain” applies to the laws of the land – but importantly, not alterable by the Crown – For by the Claim of Right Act 1689 invoking Crown authority to “cass, annull and dissable” laws is itself “Contrair to Law.”

    “Wait a minute” I hear you say “What is Public Right, What is Private right? What is ‘Evident Utility’? That’s a protection of matters pertaining to Scotland, somehow, possibly – Aha! A matter for the Courts to decide! Hmm no, not really interested – “not a justiciable matter” (Gibson v Lord Advocate 1975 SC 136, 144) if you can be bothered reading.

    Parliament is not inherently Sovereign, but it is the Alpha & Omega for the laws of Great Britain – different things entirely. The “S” word is being misused and misappropriated. Parliamentary Supremacy and Parliamentary Sovereignty.

    A Parliament can claim Sovereignty, act as if it is Sovereign, ride roughshod over Acts, Laws and Treaties (as it does) and if nothing stops them and it is accepted – then it is de-facto Sovereign. However, the Parliament of Great Britain did not have sovereignty conferred upon it in any legislative sense, in Law or Act or Statute. Ask “The Judiciary” about Sovereignty and they will say “ah well now…interesting question”

    As for what the Scottish Parliament can or cannot do – pretty much it boils down to having been created by statute, it can be unmade by statute. Whether Acts of Parliament contravene the international Treaties of Union as ratified by the two Parliaments of Scotland and England; whether it contravenes the Acts of Union,whether one parliament is Sovereign or a people are Sovereign – that appears a matter for Courts to disentangle – but and here is the final “but”, pretty much the judiciary do not care to and do not believe such politics are in their purview to judge – It is a political construct and therefore should be decided politically.

    Which brings us eventually to can Holyrood do what it wants, would it be legal? – If it is backed by the populace, then pretty much yes it can and it doesn’t matter.
    The ultimate legal caveat is: that a law is only a law if supported by the people. Of course conversely Westminster can also do what it likes…
    Considering such niceties keep the judiciary in business, but they won’t decide such matters. They cannot. It is not in their remit to make laws, merely to “judge upon them” nor is it in their power to enforce any laws.
    All of this is purely political and can only be resolved politically and the power of the politician is, by very definition, in the hands of the “Polis” the “People”
    Westminster can grab back all the powers it wants from the Scottish Parliament, but only if it lets them.

    A vote for independence resolves absolutely all of these issues. They are an academic irrelevance.

    I leave the rest to RP.

  121. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 5.51
    Actually Robert,for what it’s worth I think that TD @ 16.49 is right.
    Well as thing’s currently stand.
    Westminster could tomorrow, pass a law,that superseded all laws before it and close Holyrood.
    There is no Court anywhere that would or could legally stop them.
    The consequences for Westminster would be political not legal.
    It can do this because the Treaty of the Union, gives the Acts of the Union,the Force of Law.
    This Treaty arrangement was ratified by a “legal,free and fair” ballot in 2014.
    How and why that Treaty came about is now irrelevant, the Sovereign People of Scotland accepted it.
    And by doing so gave Westminster it’s permission to write laws for Scotland under it’s own arrangements,for Law writing.
    Westminster,indeed has the arrangement that,it can make and unmake ANY law,it is no bound by Any Constitutionally at all.

    I can’t see how any Court can help establish our Sovereignty while we are still in agreement to be bound by the term’s and conditions of the Treaty of Union.
    It it I think a political issue not a legal one.

  122. Robert Louis says:

    I’ve been thinking about all this London supposed supremacy, and the bottom line is this, London has these ‘supposed’ powers because it says it does. It is that simple. It is not something ordained by god, or inscribed in tablets of stand, they literally make it up as they go along.

    In that context, and when London ceases to play by the currently adopted way of working by, oh for example, unilaterally trying to remove powers from the Scots Parliament, against that parliaments wishes, then Scotland and its Parliament can ignore the ‘pretends rules’ too.

    The fact is, Westminster is akin to the Wizard of Oz. They project an illusion of some kind of absolutist power, yet in reality it is just mere assertion, with lots of bluster and hubris. If the Scots Government choose to hold a referendum, then they need pay little heed to an out of control, absolutist, undemocratic Government in Westminster. I mean, Henry the 8th powers, FFS?? Talk about undemocratic.

    In other words, when we choose to hold the referendum, we will hold it. If Westminster, or their ‘scottish’ muppets choose to go to their ‘pretendy, made-up ‘supreme’ court about it, the Scottish Government shouldn’t even give it the time of day. It is irrelevant.

    I mean seriously, what are they going to do, send in the English army? That’s guaranteed to get us independence. Nah, I think, London hasn’t thought any of this through as to how it might end up.

  123. Bob Mack says:


    It only does what it wants ,when it wants because the politicians prior to 2007 had a Unionist majority. They were not going to challenge anything.

  124. Liz g says:

    Robert Lewis @ 6.33
    Pretty much Robert, but and its a big but….
    Ye have tae take most of the people with ye..aye!

  125. Tinto Chiel says:

    “I’ve been thinking about all this London supposed supremacy, and the bottom line is this, London has these ‘supposed’ powers because it says it does. It is that simple. It is not something ordained by god, or inscribed in tablets of stand, they literally make it up as they go along.”

    I have been inclined to think the same, Robert Louis. “Make it up as they go along” seems admirably to describe what the English call their unwritten constitution, something they try to ram down our throats.

    Such a pity they omitted to absorb Scots Law in 1707.

  126. Liz g says:

    Robert LOUIS…. Spell check hates me..

  127. Clootie says:


    …just to remove any confusion re post and photo ” is that my wee pal Scott…”.
    I’m the one with the MIC and have no connection to Scott!

  128. Liz Rannoch says:

    Robert Peffers @ 3.09
    Liz G @ 3.56

    Thanks, to both of you. I think I am basically keeping up (?) and have worked out that what confuses me most is the timing of all this. I was wittering on about when the repeal bill would happen a couple of weeks ago. As long as their repeal bill doesn’t get through before our Continuity Bill – right?

    Now all I need is someone to explain ‘phases’ in rugby to me!!

  129. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Iain mhor @ 18:25,
    Liz g @ 18:30,
    Robert Louis @ 18:33,

    I (obvs!) disagree with the first two of you. How can the notoriously “flexible” British Constitution only ever be one-way? A kind of weird Alice-in-Wonderland construct where UKGov simply asserts that “the constitution is what we say it is”? And everyone just meekly assents?

    The fact that the Scottish Parliament was re-convened by an Act of WM doesn’t condemn it to remaining perpetually inferior either. A prime example is the Canadian case, where the “supreme” WM ceded authority to the Canadian Parliament and although in some kind of theoretical way it could notionally claim it back, I would like to see it try!

    Which does of course justify Liz’s point that ultimately it’s always political.

    But RL nicely amplifies my point. The almightly British Constitution has never really suffered any kind of serious challenge. Not least because the UKGov of the day has always studiously avoided any such by dodging and weaving if necessary. And until now the Scots have always been too deferential to properly try.

    But maybe that age of deference is about to end, and it faces a UKGov uniquely incompetent and backed into a corner of its own making. So who knows? One push and the whole impressive edifice might come tumbling down.

    Our very own Jericho moment! What a thought…!

    (…though I suspect that politics will take over first. But you never know. Look what Gina Miller achieved…)

  130. Clootie says:

    So much for the solidarity of the Independence campaign…quote from leaflet handed out by SSP at the RIC conference today
    “We lost the 2014 referendum because the SNP’s conservative message did not persuade working class people that they would be better off”

    We also had the YES movement classed as “..:a wholly owned subsidiary of Nicola Sturgeon”

    The unionist don’t need that level of help but the SSP felt the need.

  131. Thepnr says:

    Proud Cybernat says:

    “Does anyone know if Salond’s S30 request went to a vote in Westminster or did Camron, as PM, have the power to simply sign-off on it without it going to a vote in WM?”

    The Section 30 order known as the “Edinburgh Agreement” was signed off by both Cameron and Salmond before it was voted on in Westminster and Holyrood.

    “On 15 October 2012, the Agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government on a referendum on independence for Scotland was signed in Edinburgh by the First Minister, the Prime Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland.”

    The draft Section 30 Order was laid, for approval, before the UK and Scottish Parliaments on 22 October 2012. Secondary legislation, such as Orders in Council, can only be approved or not approved in the form that they are laid in Parliament, they cannot be amended.

    Having been approved in both Parliaments, the Section 30 Order provides the statutory authority for a referendum on independence for Scotland to be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament, and held before the end of 2014.

    Lots of interesting information on the S-30 order in this pdf.

  132. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Just watched the BBC Scotland news coverage of the Labour Scottish conference. Interested to see the size of the audience. No pictures of it. Wonder why?

  133. Dr Jim says:

    Are there still some folk who think this power grab is actually about UK frameworks
    It’s about direct rule from Westminster turning Holyrood into the Scottish county council otherwise what’s been the point of beefing up Mundells Scotland office with a skyrocketing budget and the place brimming over with a gazillion staff, remember Mundells own words *Scotland is not a country it’s a region of the UK* live on telly *Scotland tonight*

    The SNP are the only thing standing between them and us

    This has been coming since Scotland voted NO in 2014 and Westminster Tories and Labour now have their chance to pull the trigger on it all
    There was a deal almost on the table for Norn Ireland over a week ago both parties turned up to sign up to it then Theresa May and her team arrived and it was all Oooh! (Shock and surprise) all of a sudden no deal possible Hmm? So that’s Norn Ireland ready for takeover, Wales is easy (poor souls)
    now for the main job…. Scotland

    So we expect all this from Tories but there are still folk out there who think the Labour party wouldn’t put up with this, well Labour voters not only will they put up with it, they’ll help the Tories with it
    Why do any Labour supporters think that Jeremy Corbyn is running around talking like Nigel Farage now with his new *Immigrant bad taking all your jobs driving down your wages pish* he’s doing exactly the same thing as Farage did to win the Brexit referendum but he’s doing it in Scotland now
    Get the immigrants out and we’ll all be better off in the new Scotland of nationalisation, the Man’s a Liar and complete charlatan
    The Westminster powers know it couldn’t use Farage in Scotland he’s totally discredited and no one would fall for it so the willing minions of the Tories Labour are ready and prepared to serve their masters for the cause and a piece of the power that no doubt Jeremy has been promised
    for doing the will of the people

    (Westminsters people that is)

  134. Liz g says:

    Liz Rannoch @ 7.02
    Yip that’s about the size of it Liz,unless Westminster agree not to interfere with the returning power’s.
    As for the Rugby…..haven’t a clue either,all I keep thinking is. ” that must have hurt”

  135. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 7.02
    While Gina Miller did land a blow on the “Government” Robert it was in defence of the Westminster system.

    But it does kind of illustrate what I’m sayin about Court’s.
    They will focus very narrowly on the question they are asked,and they get to decide of its even OK to ask it.
    So even if the Continuity Bill does get into a Court,it will most likely resolve nothing around our Sovereignty.

    Anyhoo…..Westminster don’t “just” assert their right to decide what their Constitution is (and yes it’s Alice in wonderland stuff) they are willing to enforce it.
    And unfortunately might often means right.

    If they think they can demonstrate that they have a majority of the population supporting them.
    Then they will indeed use force and they will declare it a UK matter,thus heading off any international involvement.
    Think Ireland.
    Think Falklands…
    and that’s only the recent past.
    They keep a section of the population either loyal, or in the majority, or both
    We need to be confident that most of Scotland want this…
    Are you?
    The only way is by a ballot….. a court will make not a bit of difference… (Please don’t think that I thought, or am tryin to make out you were suggesting violence.
    I’m pointing out when you say “what can they do” …thats where they take it…..and they are well practiced at it)…
    Court’s are only useful for Law’s that are already there,although fortunately that means Treaties too!!!

  136. Liz Rannoch says:

    Liz G @ 7.26

    A snowball’s chance in yon place on the powers I think.

    Me too on the rugby, that and .. ooft!

  137. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Clootie @ 19:03,

    Oh, the Judean Peoples’ Front are at it again, are they? (RIC had a conference, who knew?) But they just can’t help themselves. All that excess of ultra-left socialistic exceptionalism has to have an outlet somewhere!

    Thing is, I could forgive them absolutely everything if they could “walk the walk” as well as “talk the talk” and actually recruit vast legions of the non-voting proletariat to actually coming out for indy. So genuine good wishes for them with that very laudable aim.

    But so far they have only come up empty, though they have managed to fool some (like our resident Monolithic Man) with their overblown rhetoric. But the IR1 figures show that even in Yes-voting areas like Glasgow where they were most active, the turnout was depressingly low, so that was a bust. Further confirmed by their miserable showing in the following ScotGE.

    No wonder they’re bitter. But jealous back-stabbing won’t help either them or us.

  138. Clootie says:

    @Robert J

    RIC do a great job.
    My post related to a SSP flier
    Please do not mis-quote me.

  139. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 19:57,

    Well, yes and no.

    Gina Miller put a spoke in the UKGov’s attempt to decide everything for itself alone, so that hardly counts as a “defence of the UK”, except in the narrow sense of defending all our rights. It was a setback for Mayhem, and it hurt her. So a win by proxy for us too.

    You may be right that courts are reluctant to make law instead of merely trying to interpret it, despite vile Daily Heil accusations to the contrary. A weakness of the UK system, since there isn’t the reliable yardstick of a written constitution by which all governmental actions can be properly compared.

    But nevertheless court actions do have an impact, including the ones that are nominal losses. Look at what happened to Liar Carmichael, for example. He escaped on a technicality, but lost in the court of public opinion, and damaged his own party across the country in the process, even if he managed to hang on (for now).

    Losses in court are not necessarily losses in the public sphere, and are not therefore to be feared. In constitutional terms, highlighting our lack of equality – if that’s what happens – may make the point more effectively than any number of speeches.

    The point I’m mainly trying to make is that we can’t possibly advance through crippling self-doubt and a belief that the UKGov is supremely all-powerful. That seems to be the Scottish disease. If we don’t ever demonstrate the confidence to stand up and fight for what we think is right, win or lose, how can we possibly inspire others to follow?

    Sometimes a loss, as in 2014, inspires people just to try harder, or indeed enrages and rallies so many non-involved bystanders that it backfires spectacularly.

    Sometimes you’re David taking on Goliath, and yet you still win. Because the apparently impregnable has a fatal flaw. I believe the UKGov is in exactly that position now. They’re quietly cr*pping themselves in private over Brexit, while trying to pretend to the world that they’re “in control” (to coin a phrase).

    But you can only win if you’re willing to try in the first place.

  140. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: the lack of turnout in the YES voting cities of Glasgow and Dundee, for the 2014 referendum.

    I know that RIC did a power of work in Dundee, getting peeps to sign up to vote. I guess that was going on in Glasgow at the same time.

    I don’t think any survey has been done to work out WHY the voter turnout was so low in those areas, although the result was a YES vote.

    Could it have been complacency – peeps thinking that the result was foregone conclusion, so they didn’t feel the need to vote? That’s something that could need addressing, leading up to indyref2.

    I don’t have a clue! All I know is that the majority of peeps wandering ‘doon the toon’, were supportive of Team YES Bus’s efforts in Dundee city centre in the couple of months before the vote.

  141. Liz g says:

    Liz Rannoch @ 7.38
    Totally agree Westminster is never going to give way on these power’s.
    What worries me at the moment is…Holyrood is not the only Parliament that can do Emergency legislation.
    I’d wager that they are tryin to work out what the Political cost would be to just going ahead and putting the withdrawal bill into Law,before our Continuity Bill gets there.
    I hope the Scottish MPs are on the ball and care keepin an eye out for Emergency sittings…

  142. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Watching a programme on Brunel on Channel 5. Quote from presenter Robert Bell: “Here in Glasgow, some of Brunel’s ship-building techniques are still in use.”

    They’re in the Ferguson Yard, in PORT Glasgow. Scotland, a small, far-away country, of which the English know nothing.

    Shakes head in disgust.

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    OT rugby
    I was on record / playback for the England match, good grief, the commentators are telling us how the penalty try wasn’t a penaltry try because even though that’s the rules that it’s a penalty try it’s a bit harsh following the rules so France shouldn’t have had a penaltry try. So England actually won because, errr, thing. Oh, and the England team should be sacked because they’re all getting old and have lost 2 games. And this lot are better than the ITV commentators who are even direr if that’s a word, I just went out half-time to get away from the ITV garbage commentators who wouldn’t get a gig at the local pub dominoes championship.

  144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Clootie @ 20:06,

    I didn’t quote you on anything, so how could I possibly “misquote” you? I just added my own take.

    Care to define “great” in this context?

    I don’t see any evidence of anything useful for indy myself. On the contrary, leaderene Cat Boyd comes out for Corbyn. Jeez. What a help, that. And effectively admitted recently that some of the faithful have defected now.

    Shafi’s recent foray in Bella was widely mocked for the quasi-Unionist bollocks that it was. Need I go on? How many votes did RIC win again from the public-at-large the last time or two round?

    So wish on as you please. I prefer to believe actual practical evidence with my own eyes when I see it. Not holding my breath in the meantime though.

  145. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 8.27
    Well Yes and No……now that’s a politicians answer,and no a judges… LoL
    But yes Robert while we differ slightly on the details, we are broadly in agreement.. We have to try…we have so much to gain.
    And when I’m Queen of Scotland………But seriously, we are on the same page,and I have enjoyed the debate,especially since I know next to nothing about rugby!

  146. Robert Louis says:

    Liz G at 645pm.

    I agree. And I think that is the point of all this.

    Power is never given, it is taken – as Westminster does. They do not have a divine right to do so – and all in the SNP need to stop believing that Westminster does.

    Scotland should just start doing the same – make their lives in Westminster into a living hell. Oh, and end the current’ talks’, as London is just taking the absolute p*ss.

    You can only take the people with you, if you chart a course and show the way. Otherwise somebody else (westminster) will.

  147. Tinto Chiel says:

    @BDTT: I’ve often thought about this and have told this story before.

    Blair Jenkins turned up in our town the Saturday before the referendum. The blue fire-engine was there and we were all feeling hopeful, given the local soundings (our Hub was second or third nationally in canvassing returns).

    My wife liked Blair and we started to chat. He was confident that, between pledges for the Referendum Covenantsignythingy and voter registrations, the whole thing was in the bag.

    I will spare you our reaction on 19/9/14 (including our daughters).

    Still don’t know how to put my finger on the particular problem.

  148. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 20:53,

    I would vote for you as Pres (if not Queen), Liz! =grin=

  149. K1 says:

    There were Yes saltires, big ones all along parts of Byres Road and Great Western Road on the 18th Sep 2014, high up on the lampposts up until about 2/3pm. Then they all vanished…I went along a bit later and couldn’t quite believe or understand why they’d been removed. There was also a ‘strange’ feeling in the air on that day too…can’t quite put my finger on that either.

    Given the polling stations hadn’t even closed yet I’ve always considered that something was a bit ‘rum’ about that entire day.

    Sigh…and here we are dealing wi the consequences…

  150. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 20:53,

    Oh, and me neither with rugby.

    It’s that game played with a funny ball that doesn’t roll properly, isn’t it? =laugh=

    Or as someonce once said, “Whereas footie is a gentle game played by roughs, rugger is a rough game played by gents”. Or somesuch.

    =heads rapidly for the exit…=

  151. Tinto Chiel says:

    K1: that would be about the time we got the message from Yes HQ to stop canvassing and start to prepare for a result of historical significance.

    Told to just turn up at polling stations and smile confidently.

    What saps we were.

  152. Liz g says:

    Robert Louis @ 8.55
    Absolutely… and we need to stay the course…

    But I’m not sure that we should recommend walking away from the talk’s.
    Wales are in on them too,and N.Ireland might come back to them.
    Thats a pressure point in and of itself…. Let Westminster do the walking.
    Let’s face it,if (and I believe they do) they think that the are the ones who should be deciding everything, then having to play nice must be….shall we say….a wee bit stressful?
    It can’t hurt us,and our Parliament is no exactly “just Rollin over”,every little helps…or so I’m told!

  153. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 9.13
    Just before ye get tae that Exit…
    Do you speak of funny ball’s tae yer future Queen Sir???

  154. Ken500 says:

    Corbyn is a useless incompetent. He has not got a clue he is taking about and neither does. anyone else, Offending so many. It is sad to see so many being conned.

    The radical left and their major unpopular policies puts people off of Independence. Some of their constant criticism and condemnation of the SNP can put people off of FFA/Independence. There grievance culture puts people off of Independence. Their zoomer out of sync policies of no rationality puts people off of Independence.

    The vast majority who do not want many these unpopular policies. So they would be better not cutting off their nose to spite their face. Or the outcome will be less (SNP) support and support for FFA/Independence. In reality the outcome could be a decrease of support for FFA/Independence.

    Campaign all they like but if they are constantly criticising the SNP. It just puts people off of voting for the SNP and Independence. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. For any votes they gain they lose alternatively as many. They do more harm than good to their acclaimed cause. Some people will go and vote unionist because of the constant unqualiied, non substained criticism of the SNP. They have the organisation funding etc which has more chance of getting over the line. Along with others.

  155. Sinky says:

    Tinto Chiel says @ 9.18 pm:

    That was never the message. Given that the turn out was much higher in Tory areas it was to get into working class areas with lots of razzmatazz to motivate normal non voters to get out and vote for their country.

    Even the Postal voting returns showed much higher returns from better off areas it was clear, even to Ruth Davidson, that the Yes campaign was behind.

    If Glasgow and Dundee had turned out to vote to the same extent as Edinburgh and Aberdeen YES would have carried the day.

    That is the message for Indy Ref 2 get traditional non voters registered for a postal vote.

    That should be the priority for the SNP and Greens when canvassing or knocking on doors.

  156. wull2 says:

    I have never been to a big football game in my life, but I have switched over and seen a goal at the end, never take anything for granted and go for it up till the end.

  157. K1 says:

    Wasn’t there a phenomenal voter registration campaign by RIC in Glasgow, and wasn’t this the ‘weird’ thing about the low turnout here?

    Why did so many sign up to register and then not ‘turn out’ to actually vote?

    It’s never made sense. And still doesn’t.

  158. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Sinky.

    “If Glasgow and Dundee had turned out to vote to the same extent as Edinburgh and Aberdeen YES would have carried the day.”

    That’s what I was hinting at.

  159. Bobp says:

    Did we all see that irish support in the Aviva stadium? Nae 45% 55% division there eh? All for one and one for all. Can you imagine the short shrift tractors would get there?. Can you imagine the irish media and tv saying their own country is sh**e and they should rejoin the yookay. Naw me neither.

  160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    K1 @ 21:48,

    RIC have frequently claimed that, but who knows? Could possibly be somewhat exaggerated self-promotion (or self-deception).

    When it came to it, although very many folk were motivated in IR1, and remain so, it is very plausible that some actual “new” voters just didn’t put up in the end. Signed a registration form shoved at them at their front door but couldn’t then be arsed to take a wee walk down a few streets to a polling place when it really mattered. “Horse to the water” and all that.

    Just like always in regular elections, so nothing surprising there really. More like disappointing, since it’s their future at stake as much as (if not more than) the rest of us.

    Maybe there is some way of energising them. There effing well ought to be, but we don’t seem to have found the secret yet. (But I reckon it may take the street-wise to do it, not well-meaning middle-class idealists, somehow. Preferably people from their own local community that they trust and respect.)

    And don’t forget, demotivation is a powerful weapon that Bitter Together deployed very ruthlessly. (Especially effective in a Scottish context, more’s the pity.)

  161. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “In Scotland the monarch is not sovereign and, under Scots law, the people of Scotland are legally sovereign.”

    “legally”, the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    How many Scots had the right to vote when they were proclaimed “sovereign” by a document that was not worth the paper it was written on?

    How can a person without the right to vote be “sovereign”?

    When did all the people of Scotland get the right to vote and who gave it to them?

  162. yesindyref2 says:

    @RJS and all
    I’m with RJS on that one, people registered to get people out of their faces, maybe even some with a vague intention of turning up – but something was more important or they forgot. But for many people, one politician is the same as another, and who cares whether it’s a load in Holyrood or Westminster, it’ll make no difference to their lives. That’s what they think. No idea how to get them motivated.

  163. Rock says:


    “With first-past-the-post a majority is a shuggly peg. In 2017 the SNP had a landslide result from just 36.9% of the vote. You could argue fptp is used at WM to form governments with well under 50% who then go on the rampage!”

    I am in favour of denying English settlers the vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England, when it is next held in 622 years’ time.

    But I am dead against “first-past-the-post” for the Scottish parliament.

    It is undemocratic and resulted in the elected dictatorships of Thatcher and Blair, and their illegal wars.

    I can’t understand why Ken500 and the Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend are so strongly in favour of it.

  164. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    10 March, 2018 at 12:10 pm

    “Be aware, Robert Louis, that, “if Wingers still don’t read the National”, and some will not be in no position to obtain hard copies if they are in more isolated areas, then it is a total waste of time posting a link to an on-line National article for the National on-line goes behind a pay-wall unless the would be reader is already subscribed.”

    Robert Peffers says:
    10 March, 2018 at 3:15 pm

    “News Flash!

    Tiny coloured immigrant held captive in Scotland.

    And you have the brass neck to call other posters “numpties”.

  165. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 10.31
    Do ye think it’s as simple as a logistical… physically get the voters to the polling station thing ..then?

  166. heedtracker says:

    I can’t understand why Ken500 and the Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend are so strongly in favour of it.

    Because Holyrood’s PR set up’s not actually representative Rock.

    My Slovene girlfriend came, what was it, last? And yet he’s the D’Hondt list go to toryboy spokesberk, for massed ranks of beeb Scotland liggers and gimps.

    Prof Smirky should not be in any elected MSP slot and he would not be, if Scotland had the same system as Westminster, where SNP have a clear, representative majority, representative being the operative word.

    Hope that helps Rock

  167. Ken500 says:

    Some folk should crawl under a rock. They are just so unaware it is tragic. A lost cause.

  168. Ken500 says:

    Bye, bye Butterfly. Fly away. Bye bye wallflower.

  169. Rock says:


    “Because Holyrood’s PR set up’s not actually representative Rock.”

    Isn’t it? How not?

    Do you think Westminster’s “first-past-the-post” is more representative?

  170. Liz g says:

    Ken 500 @ 11.20
    Bye, Bye Baby..mibbi
    Or does that mean Pebble’s… Who can tell..
    Anyhoo ..don’t waste yer time,this guy “Craig”, I’m pretty sure has N.P.D. ( narcissistic personality disorder).
    Don’t let him Gaslight ye,my friend.

  171. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Could be, yes. I was thinking maybe a band, I doubt free drink would be legal. But if the likes of a minibus arrived at the door and took them back after, who knows? The other way is postal votes.

    It’s not lazy so much as intertia, can’t be bothered. I know how that feels at times, you get comfortable, settled, don’t want to move. Or people going to work will do it before work, oops they’ll be late, they’ll do it after work, then it’s been a tiring day they’ll do it after their tea, zzzzzzzzz. Or off to a pal’s house.

    Mmm, found a survey:

  172. Rock says:


    “Some folk should crawl under a rock. They are just so unaware it is tragic. A lost cause.”

    Why don’t you explain your logic for strongly supporting the totally undemocratic “first-past-the-post” system?

    You often refer to Blair’s illegal wars.

    It is your beloved “first-past-the-post” system that gave us the Blair “landslide” dictatorship with much less than 50% of the vote.

    Without “first-past-the-post”, there would never be “strong”, meaning BRUTAL governments in Westminster.

  173. Rock says:


    “if Scotland had the same system as Westminster, where SNP have a clear, representative majority, representative being the operative word.”

    “Representing” how many people?

    How can getting 56 out of 59 MPs (95%) with 50% of the vote be termed “representative”?

    To think that even with this unprecedented mandate, Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

  174. DrunkenDee says:

    K1, Brian and Sinky

    First real post, so apologies if I break any protocols or I’m just rambling!

    I don’t know if it was widespread but my experience in Dundee during the indy ref was that there was a few factors that stopped the voters coming out.

    One was apathy, as many either didn’t think we’d stand a chance or were over confident and another was the effects of project fear/the vow. The main one that I got angry about though was the hostile way some of the canvassers in the city centre were apparently acting towards anyone not openly Yes…

    My ex and her friends worked in the centre and as such walked past the canvassers a few times a day going in and out, as well as on lunch/coffee breaks. They often didn’t have long for their breaks so couldn’t (or wouldn’t because they weren’t as open about their politics) stop to speak to the guys and girls who were out in the centre.

    While most of the canvassers were grand with me (I was wearing my badges and stopped for a chat if one of them caught me) I know of two girls who were yes voters that didn’t vote in the end because they were sickened by the amount of abuse they apparently got for not stopping.

    One claimed she was told to f#ck off and worse since they assumed her not stopping was coz she was a No voter and the other just freaked out at the intensity of feeling from both Yes and No voters that she bottled it in case anyone gave her grief about which way she voted…

    Like I said I don’t know how widespread that was, but just thought I’d share it, since if it put them off I’m sure there will have been others who either just said they’d vote yes (or no) to avoid the grief or heard people like that complaining/experienced similar and were switched off themselves.

  175. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s another one:

    Occurs to me that those happy enough with the status quo would be more likely to vote than those who change could help – which is of course what others have said, including me I guess, so it didn’t just occur to me!

    But the first link describes optimism about the future, those with less optimism are less likely to vote – though that was also behind the increase for UKIP – and strangely enough, Brexit. Which was a load of hype and false promise.

    Maybe an answer is personalisation, which would take a lot of resouces to check things out: “what difference will it make to me personally?”.

  176. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 11.34
    A Band..I don’t know!!
    But Sumthin..that we all do??
    A wee bit like when …During the Commonwealth Games, Street’s were shut off….So to compensate… Local event’s were organized.
    So on Referendum Day..couldn’t we do the samel

  177. Rock says:

    Liz g,

    ” Anyhoo ..don’t waste yer time,this guy “Craig”, I’m pretty sure has N.P.D. ( narcissistic personality disorder).”

    Why don’t you have the guts to go on the record as to whether you support Westminster’s first-past-the-post system or Holyrood’s Proportional Representation system?

    (Note to self: sycophants don’t have guts)

  178. Indy2 says:

    Liz g

    And all the rest of the Trolls are out to play tonight.

    You lot have got to be on somebodies books?

    Nobody would sit and post the shite you lot post for free.

    You have to be paid Trolls.

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, apps is one answer, but they’d have to be sexy, fun or interesting, and advertised somewhere. It could increase motivation though. Add in a quiz where one or more of the questions was specific to the local polling station and around, like a treasure hunt. Doubt if a prize could be offered all the same, probably not “legal”!

    Not easy to put together, what was that figure I dug out, 4,310 polling stations off the top of my head?

    The app of course would give route from home to polling station.

    Off the wall thinking.

  180. Indy2 says:

    C’mon Peffers and Co, how much are you lot gettin paid???

    Two bob a post? because that’s about all your posts are worth.

  181. heedtracker says:

    Do you think Westminster’s “first-past-the-post” is more representative?

    Yes because it’s probably as close as possible right now, to how Scotland votes, nation state or teamGB region.

    Something went wrong with that last snap toryboy creep out GE, with the loss of Salmond and Robertson… why did so many Scots just not bother to snap GE vote?

    Was it really all down to around two years of spectacular BBC Scotland Salmond Out attack propaganda?

    But anyway, FPTP does give what looks like a pretty good layout of nation state Scotland would vote.

    That snap GE even let back in BBC r4’s toryboy network favourite Jo Swinson in. Not bad for a FibDem, Carmichael shyster style.

    And Jo Swinson’s only remotely interesting, comparing and contrasting beeb gimp attack propaganda in Scotland wise, because Jo Swinson is now on BBC r4 all the time but Nicolson was only barely tolerated by the most ferocious tory ligger, Andrew Neil, on his beeb gimp toryboy chat show and with that fabulous toryboy creep, Mike Portillo.

    Its a sleazy, slimy way to completely corrupt Scotland’s nascent democracy, beeb gimp wise. But FPTP in Scotland would kick its big fat mottled UKOK arse in to touch.

    And they know it too.

  182. heedtracker says:

    Indy2 says:
    10 March, 2018 at 11:55 pm
    C’mon Peffers and Co, how much are you lot gettin paid???

    Too much, you tosser.

  183. Hamish100 says:

    yawn…Rock disnae like the National
    or the FM Nicola Sturgeon
    or Independence

    this will last for at least a 1000 years

    Rock doesn’t believe in Independence – anytime

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    I did wonder about that, but only the gubmint or councils could sanction that one. It’d have to be sent to ScotGov as a suggestion. And I guess we’d have to be reasonbly sure it would favour YES, though anything that increases active franchise is a good thing democratically.

    To bo official, any such idea would have to be impartial and open to all parties or YES / NO. But YES can do it with fun, NO only has fear.

  185. Liz g says:

    Hamish 100 @ 12.02
    I don’t think Craig likes me either…struggling tae care…
    Whit’s a Lassie tae dae!!!

  186. heedtracker says:

    Rock doesn’t believe in Independence – anytime

    I don’t know. Rock’s a not an uncommon kind of Scot is he, really.

    We all know them, they hate fucking everything, they look miserable as sin, all the time, everyone gets out of their way, because they cant be arsed getting into it with them. If they do, they get to see Rock style tonsils, as Scots Rocks bellow f yous, at everything and everyone.

    Keep on just being Rock, Rock:D

    Then you get creeps like Indy2, bitter wee shites, too chicken to actually be Rocks.

  187. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 12.09
    Was actually getting at ..!!Just us..not the council’s..
    We need a genuine vote.. matter what….get the people to the polls.
    Our independence would not be in doubt.
    Of that I have no doubt

  188. Ken500 says:

    The list gets longer?

    Just put every poster on it. Intruder. Who is so concerned they read and hover over every word. Digesting it. To put their wee point in. Troll. Some folk do protest too much. Have a nice day loser.

  189. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 22:31,

    Of course, convincing people that their vote doesn’t matter and won’t change a damn thing is the ideal demotivational tool.

    A self-fulfilling prophecy for the Dark Side, even.

    That was one of the most important functions of FPTP, as some seem too readily to have forgotten, alas. Labour votes weighed, so “what’s the point of adding another?”, slump, slump…

    That’s why the cultural dimension is actually quite important. Cheers people up no end and convinces them that change is in the air.

    So the idea of adding in a band or three to lighten the atmosphere is not at all daft. A great idea, in fact. Reaches many people in a way that politics just doesn’t.

  190. yesindyref2 says:

    Hey, here’s a riddle for you to ask your fellow barracks inmate Rock:

    Q: I’m tall when I’m young and I’m short when I’m old. What am I?

    Careful now, Rock’s programmer blew his processor and MB last night, and has to use a BBC Acorn same as yours now, don’t blow them, or it’ll be the ZX80 for you!

    If you manage that one, here’s one really suited to the two of you:

    Q: What two keys can’t open any door?

  191. geeo says:


    I worked out a few months ago that if you extrapolated the % of FPTP seats won in Holyrood 2016, to Holyrood 2016 being fully FPTP, the SNP would have won 104 (and a half) seats out of 129.

  192. heedtracker says:

    So the idea of adding in a band or three to lighten the atmosphere is not at all daft. A great idea, in fact. Reaches many people in a way that politics just doesn’t.

    Stop being flippant:D

    FPTP Holyrood today really would revolutionary.

    Scottish National Party 35
    Scottish Conservative Party 13
    Scottish Labour Party 7
    Scottish Liberal Democrat 4

    I’m a huge fan of Patrick Harvie too, but not that many Scots are, and not enough to give him the clout he has now.

  193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    DrunkenDee @ 23:43,

    Hi DD, an interesting insight. Too intense we can all get at times, and it doesn’t always help.

    Winning converts from the preoccupied-with-other-matters is a challenge. It takes a different approach.

    Not exactly what you are saying, but you see a similar kind of thing on here at times, alas. People so up themselves with disappointment with former “no” voters that they come over as grumpy and bitter as hell, and give every impression that they would prefer to erect a cross of their own making and climb up onto it rather than endure the thought of any former “no” daring to convert to “yes”. =sigh=

    Whereas (obvs!) we have to change a fair few minds if we are to win next time.

  194. geeo says:


    I can smell the stench of concern troll from here.

    Anyone who voted No because someone was nasty to them (and no..i do not believe a word of your fairy story) was NEVER voting Yes.

    No doubt you will use this response to shout .”aha..see..this is what i mean”..

    Dont bother, because by doing so, you confirm what you are.

  195. heedtracker says:

    geeo says:
    11 March, 2018 at 12:24 am

    I worked out a few months ago that if you extrapolated the % of FPTP seats won in Holyrood 2016, to Holyrood 2016 being fully FPTP, the SNP would have won 104 (and a half) seats out of 129.

    Interesting. But D’Hondt doesn’t make much sense either, on the ballot paper, in a UK region like Scotland.

    FPTP does make sense.

    Lets face it.

    D’Hondt is actually and seriously holding up progressive liberal Scotland. And that’s being optimistic.

    It’s ofcourse giving the toryboys, thanks to their Beeb Scotland gimps, a great chance to shut it all down. They clearly think they can, having taken out Salmond and Robertson, in the FTPT system. Beeb gimpery alone has to be confident D’Hondt can take out the SNP completely.

    Or, why is my Slovene girlfriend a beeb Scotland gimp level of Nige Farage household name?

  196. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heedtracker @ 00:26,

    FPTP is the last refuge of the scoundrel politician who doesn’t believe that s/he can win fairly. Cynical election-rigging by born losers looking for a quick fix.

    Show me someone pushing FPTP and I’ll show you a defeatist and a would-be cheat.

  197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heedtracker @ 00:36,

    And while we’re back on this old chestnut, just to put elementary things straight, “d’Hondt” is not a voting system, it’s merely one mathematical method for calculating vote shareout. Others are available. If you mean the system that applies in Holyrood, it’s actually called AMS (“Additional Member System”).

    Personally, I don’t like AMS either, because it creates this impression of two classes of parliamentarian, not least among the ill-informed. Also because it depends on party lists, which is a much more valid reason for objection. That’s what delivers the irrepressible Murdo.

    Which is why I personally prefer STV. People vote for people, and every elected representative is equal – every last one of them wins by getting sufficient backing from voters.

  198. heedtracker says:

    Which is why I personally prefer STV. People vote for people, and every elected representative is equal – every last one of them wins by getting sufficient backing from voters.

    Perhaps but not in a Scotland region of the UKOK zone, where all our brains are furiously toryboy washed by tory msm, starting at Pacific Quay, bleached SNP Out completely by Torygrah zoomers, stinky olde The Graun, SUN, Daily Heil and we all know the rest.

  199. DrunkenDee says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    Hi Robert, thanks for the reply. It was something that I was probably as guilty of at times during 2014 myself since I struggled to see why people couldn’t or wouldn’t ‘see sense’ but I’d like to think I reserved my grumpyness for any out and out yoons…
    I’ve been a lurker since before the indy ref so I have seen what you mean though and it could be an element of the same thing that was at play. The ‘radical left’ or ‘more indy than everyone else brigade’ not being able to see that it maybe takes a different approach to persuade different types of people. Wish I had the answers but like I said just an observation from what I saw/heard going on around me.



    Thanks for jumping in with the assumption, but if you read what I wrote, I didn’t say they voted No, I said they just didn’t vote.

    Both were young girls (early 20’s) and while one was fairly clued up, the other had never engaged with politics before so both were maybe more easily swayed than a committed voter but given the original topic was why the yes voters didn’t mobilise in Dundee and Glasgow I felt the need to chip in.

    Never mind though I’ll away and get back to my lurking but FYI I’ve been SNP all my days – my mum and dad were heavily involved in the 70’s so I’ve grown up with the right politics

  200. ian murray says:

    The Scottish Government must stay the course.
    If they go off message or throw a fit That will become the story for the rest of the year.

    Referendum Referendum Referendum The Unionists constantly repeat those words and what has happened is that the public are sick of hearing about the SNP and Nicola and her referendum, even although the SNP rarely mention the word the damage is being done by the Unionists.
    When you control the media you control the message

  201. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, just read your post and it sounds reasonable to me. I’ve seen the same thing in forums, particularly after the ref. Enthusiasm is great, some goes to extreme with those who don’t share all their views. I’ve even been called a warmonger for talking about defence, what sort of navy we might have, air force, the effectiveness of various ships, jets and even missiles. Shrug.

    There were 1,600,000 people who voted YES in 2014, and surprisingly we’re not all clones.

  202. yesindyref2 says:

    If we’re telling stories my daughter told me about one campaigner on facebook with some exchanges, then asking them repeatedly if they wanted a Margaret Thatcher again, and poll tax.

    The reply eventually was that they didn’t know as they weren’t born then. The campaigner won no converts.

  203. Cactus says:

    This song seems to fit…

    Get in the ring:

    Caution: Sweary words featured above.

    And in this 850lb corner.

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    Just found this, which is an interesting account of the Battle of Two Sisters:

    “My impression of a night attack was that it was nothing like I expected it to be – in terms of a fairly ordered affair with people running and taking out machine gun nests. It was just hugely confusing. It was fairly arbitrary as to who seemed to be injured – lots of bangs and flashes and very loud noises. You had naval artillery and mortars and heavy and light small arms fire as well. It was terrifying, to be honest. I don’t know how my colleagues felt. We were pretty much pinned down and we came under direct fire from the Argentinians. Up to that point it was all to do with artillery and mortar rounds, but this was direct fire and they were using what seemed to us to be tracers, which was pretty daft. So, you could see where their fields of fire were and we were down low on the ground.”

    The things you find out!

  205. Cactus says:

    When ye see John Bull, sitting on his stool…

    His UJ top looks like a target.

    Like a dartboard.


  206. louis.b.argyll says:

    Iiiiiin one!

  207. K1 says:

    I think many undecided opted for ‘no’ or didn’t vote because they were ‘instinctual’ noes, not because of interest or investment, simply because ‘they didn’t want to know’ at all. Further I think many of them didn’t enjoy seeing the engagement and dare I say it the hope, and looked for a reason or blame or some criticism that they could put on the Yes side to vote No or not vote at all.

    One of those ‘reasons’ that was bandied about was actually that ‘we’ (yes side) were somehow ‘hostile’, sure didn’t Jim Murphy go around the country literally ‘noising up’ potential Yes voters to get the ‘egg’ (cough *planted egg upon the shirt* ) incident on reporting Scotland to convey this very narrative that the Yes side were ‘aggressive’ and ‘bullying’?

    In my experience the exact opposite was the case, the hectoring, dismissal, intolerance and downright condescension was in the BT side in spades. But I will say that it may well have left many of us on the Yes side, defensive and angry at the way we were being portrayed. I certainly did not hear of any instances where canvassers and those manning street stalls behaved in any ways from the Yes side as Dee has described. Though I did see some footage of some utter bastards trying to provoke a reaction from some Yessers at a stall.

    One more point:

    ‘…who were yes voters that didn’t vote in the end because they were sickened by the amount of abuse they apparently got for not stopping.

    One claimed she was told to f#ck off and worse since they assumed her not stopping was coz she was a No vote…’

    ‘sickened by the amount of abuse’ is a stunning statement. Did they report this ‘abuse’ to the police, if not, why not?

    I can’t imagine anyone manning stalls being let off with this display and level of abuse your friend says took place. Without intervention from others at the stall/s?

    There’s always two sides to the story.

  208. Tackety Beets says:

    I’ll just leave this here:

    Don Key & Dar K##

  209. yesindyref2 says:

    I dundee dunno. Yeah, kind of agree.

    Apart from that, donkey and monkey I think. Dunno which is which.

  210. sinky says:

    Apart from toxic attack on a British spy,the biggest story of the week was Westminster power grab. But not one mention of this or Continuity Bill in Scotland on Sunday which suits the Unionists just fine.

  211. Robert Louis says:

    Aside from all the robots and the usual trolls (why do people argue with robots/paid trolls, FFS?) their were some interesting comments last night.

    I was thinking again about the constitution, and this notion that Westminster has absolute power, and I have to say ,even on re-consideration, it just doesn’t. It is just a front. Bluster and hubris, supported by the state propagandist broadcasters like the English run BBC.

    The most recent REAL example of this kind of thing to cite would be Catalonia (and, yes, I know it’s very different from Scotland etc..), but the thing is, the fascist run Madrid Government use ONE thing to get their way, the Spanish WRITTEN constitution. Now, I know they are wrong, and the behaviour of Mariano Rajoy is right up their with the very worst despotic leaders, but it does raise an interesting point. Their is no written constitution -as many of the saps in southern England seemingly take pride in.

    That is the point. All this nonsense about ‘oh Scotland cannot do that, or Westminster controls this or that’, is just that, bland assertions. All through history, no matter the circumstances, Westminster has just quite literally ‘made up’ its rights. It did so all over the world, in America, India, and most recently Ireland.

    That ‘flexibility’, which they all admire so much, will be their downfall. On one hand they claim to be a parliamentary democracy, under THEIR ‘constitutional understanding’, yet have only just recently voted to destroy that parliamentary democracy, giving full untrammelled power to the executive (the government in Downing street). They simply cannot have it both ways, arguing they are a parliamentary democracy where Westminster is supposedly ‘sovereign’, yet in the same supposed crisis remove the role of that parliament.

    The Scottish parliament and Government should start to take the powers they need to run Scotland, because that is EXACTLY what westminster does. Of course Ken Mackintosh will say it is outside their remit, but then Ken Mackintosh has by his own actions destroyed his own credibility.

    We simply, as a country, cannot sit back, and let England (for that is what it is, when you think about it), remove Scotland from the EU against our wishes, remove EU citizenship from Scots against their wishes, destroy Scottish industry, and quite literally destroy the wealth and economic prosperity of Scotland. It just CANNOT be allowed to continue. Their is no justification for it. None.

    That is why the Scottish parliament and Government should just start to ignore London. England (for that is what it is) has no f*****g right whatsoever to force me to give up my EU citizenship.

  212. Nana says:

    Theresa May Protects DUP

    Police are investigating after the hate-filled leaflet called on supporters to carry out violent attacks on Muslims

  213. Nana says:

    Can you be a pensioner aged 64 and a half?

    Brexit: People crossing Irish border would have to register in advance

    Panic, chronic anxiety and burnout: doctors at breaking point

    This Huge Leak of WhatsApp Chats Reveals The Full Fury Of The Tories’ Brexit Split

  214. Hamish100 says:

    I always thought that regional list MSP’s could form a 2nd chamber to revise policies and procedures in conjunction with the committee structure. Ultimately like the House of Lords in England they would need to defer to House of Commons votes. Maybe each local authority would have an input to the 2nd chamber. How to get rid of a wayward MSP is important. If one dies or leaves then there should be an election and not picked from a list. Not ideal but better.
    At local government level having 4 councillors in some wards is just too much.

  215. Sinky says:

    Robbie Dinwoodie standing up for Scotland’s corner on BBC Radio Scotland at 8.06 this morning over Westminster Power Grab.

    Well worth a listen

  216. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Louis: “(why do people argue with robots/paid trolls, FFS?)

    If you don’t play with your pets occasionally they get neurotic and moult, and their batteries run down. And the SSPCA will come and take them away, free of charge, and recycle them. It’s just being kind and supporting the SSPCA.

  217. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 10 March, 2018 at 11:33 am:

    “John Bull has always personified England (not the UK). Although with many South British confusing England and UK, John Bull’s identity gets blurred.
    His creator, Dr John Arbuthnot, was clear about John’s identity as an English yeoman. He also created the character of Peg, his sister, who personified Scotland.

    Further to your correct information, galamcennalath, The author of the fiction that is John Bull wrote that he based the fictional Bull upon a real live Englishman. The Regency journalist, Theodore Hook, and here is his biography:-

  218. Tinto Chiel says:

    “That was never the message.”

    I repeat, Sinky: mid-afternoon on 18/9 we were told to stop the knock-up and prepare for a historic evening. Most activists hung about polling stations “looking positive”.

    Maybe we should have driven around the schemes in 72-seaters.

  219. Ken500 says:

    Not more of them or other chambers it just make the problem(s) worse. Then voters can’t get rid of them. They just come back to haunt. Regurgitated all the time. Ie the HOL but no powers at all just to delay, A talking shop of unelected (corrupt) ex politicians, A total nuisance and unneccesay expense,

    The electoral system is flawed. The electoral system has no proper govanance or is not appropriate. Governance is not enforced. By sanctions or relevant action being taken. To stop the criminal misuse. Breaking of the electoral code. Breaking of electoral code signed declaration by candidates. The rules are broken and no appropriate action is taken to stop the rules being broken and the sanctions enforced. Even committing criminal action with no enforcement of any sanction.

    FPTP is the most supported, The easiest to administrate. The simplest to understand. The most practical. That reflects voters choice. The only one that gets rid of candidates that do not have voters support.

    Tony Blair’s actions had not relevance to the argument. A charlotan liar. He could have come to power under any electoral system. His actions are an entirely irrelevance to the argument of corruption the corruption within the voting system. A different argument as to the integrity of individual elected candidates. Cooks and charlatans are elected through the STV and D’Hondt system in fact more easily elected under them.

    The Tory Blair argument is the consideration of honesty and crooked qualities of candidates that stand under any electoral system. The qualities and attributes of candidates i.e. under any electoral system. A total non argument to the electoral fraud resulting within different electoral system and their relevant use to give a credible result, That is to do with how political parties select candidates, endorse and then support them. Plus how his (their) colleagues and associates did nothing to stop his illegal actions. A different situation. A different argument. A red herring to comparing electoral systems. He could have gained power and then made the gross betrayal under any electoral system given the relevant support (from the Party).

  220. Hamish100 says:

    KEN 500
    Enjoy the debate but FPTP gave us how many years of continuous labour in Scotland and tories in England and by definition Scotland. Some proportionality is required with all its faults. My comment over regional MSP’s is that they are not the same in my view. Their role should be distinct from those who came to the top of the list.

    Just my view.

  221. Ken500 says:

    The result of IndyRef1 is one of the most successful electoral campaign ever undertaken. To increase possible support from 27% to 45% is a massive achievement. It was not enough to get over the line but it was a massive achievement. Especially with the lies being told and the electoral rules/Laws being totally broken by electoral fraud by the (unionist) opposition. Without any sanctions or discipline.

    Support increased 50% (Indy1) is a massive achievement. A further stepping stone to better governance,, equality and democracy in Scotland/UK. Every good reasons to have another one. Just as has happened with massive SNP electoral victories. To reduce the electoral deficit in the UK Union (arrangements) and conditions between too supposed equal parties. (States) Now Brexit being used by corrupt UK politicians . Illegally. To try and reduce these hard fought for (inadequate in range) powers.

    For better, equal govanance and prosperity in Scotland/UK Union. Scotland should be given more powers not less. For equality and parity. To reduce the electrol deficit.

  222. Les Wilson says:

    Postal votes in Indy2, will remain a huge problem for us. The EC say they have tightened up the process.Forgive me for being cynical but as we know the EC is a politically motivated construct, any changes they make will retain the possibility that our gloriously corrupt rulers can cheat us.

    Back before the Indy1 vote there was talk of postal votes being transferred to England for “counting”, for such a thing to happen is at the least very odd. So at the time people were discussing in various blogs how could this info be used against us?

    A post I read about it was a lady who thought she had the answer to that, in that there were machines in existence, which she had physically seen working herself. With these machines you could put a document through the machine which would have a signature,
    details could be then changed in the document and the machine would resign the document with an exact copy of the persons signature.

    At that time I was unsure if such appliances were even possible,
    however, she was right and I was wrong, they do exist.
    Here is one in action, bear in mind if they had been used to forge signatures of postal votes they would have been even more advanced. But this shows it is indeed possible to do.

  223. wull2 says:

    Question, does everyone resident in Scotland have a Scottish tax code, if not why not, even those over 65.

  224. Ken500 says:

    How do you distinguish their role. Who does it? When they are appointed (by political parties)not elected by the electorate. It just means there are more of them. On an already flawed system which is not being rectified, it is the difficiencies in the PR systems which are not being addressed. Parties breaking electoral Law/rules which it throws up that it not being address. Within the Scottish unauthorised, imposed, changed electoral system which it is throwing up. That is not being addressed. Problems that can also be within FPTP but are (even) less contained there as regards a democratic process. Ie concerning Electoral Law not being enforced.

    Candidates etc not being held to account for their corrupt actions. No discipline or application of governance of electoral code/rules (system). If they just get away with it. The corruption continues because there is no deterrent to breaking (electoral) Law. At Westminster which in turn has an affect of corrupting the Holyrood system, by (Unionist) politicans, They take their corruption with them, endemic within their Parties.. So less changes, It leads/brings politics into disrepute. People feel/get extremely disenfranchised (angry and unhappy) at the corruption taking place. Especially when it is extremely difficult to vote the candidates and culprits out. (unionist) Party corruption since 1928.

    That is when e-mail, texts with a few expletives go flying about. By people who feel they are disenfranchised and struggling. Basically want and needing some help. They are entitled to and should be getting. In any casc those who have been sending expletives etc should not be so complaining when they get some back. Kettle black. They could seen as being hypocritical of any Party. Appropriate to point the lauguage out as possibly being inappropriate but sometimes understandable. Limited acknowledgement,

  225. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says


    This article states the obvious in a focused way. Hits the nail firmly. BritNats fear Indy, but it goes beyond even that. They have an agenda to promote Britishness (flegs on veg) at every opportunity to reinforce their mythical nation of ‘Britain’. We and our parliament are their biggest obstacle.

    “Scotland now has it’s own political culture; its own democratic institutions and processes; it’s own Government, and it’s own Parliament. And the British establishment does not like this. They do not like it at all. And the intend to do something about what they perceive as a serious threat to their “precious, precious Union”.”

  226. Highland Wifie says:

    K1 wrote
    “I think many undecided opted for ‘no’ or didn’t vote because they were ‘instinctual’ noes, not because of interest or investment, simply because ‘they didn’t want to know’ at all.”

    I really believe that we are in a different country now from that in 2014. In many ways, as voters, we were very naive back then. I was always going to be a ‘yes’ voter but mainly on instinct. My knowledge of politics was of the BBCQT variety. I had a growing political awareness but none of the knowledge I have now. I agree that people who voted ‘no’ were also instinctual, based on their limited knowledge of what was actually going on. The status quo felt safe and all this political upheaval was just too much to deal with on top of the increasing effects of austerity. i.e things are bad enough without making them worse. Project Fear had an easy ride.
    It won’t be like that this time round. If you’re already hanging by a thread and there’s no safe port in the status quo then ‘no’ becomes more of a decision than a fallback.
    I’m not complacent but I think there is a substantial number of people out there who won’t take much persuading to get in the lifeboat.
    Our SG has spent the last three years showing us how a modern, forward thinking country works. The contrast can’t have been wasted on many. Only the dyed in the wool British Nationalists will stubbornly refuse to save themselves from catastrophe imo.

  227. heedtracker says:

    Thank you for the Sunday linking Nana.

    Olde Scottish tory Ian Jack of The Graun’s,

    “General Franco died in 1975, but 13 years later Gibraltarians still viewed Spain as a country of secret policemen, sinister priests and tyrannical bureaucrats ruling a population who, a Gibraltar politician told me, “don’t understand freedom as we do”.

    hits the spot today too. Although he probably doesn’t mean Spain and Catalan, a non story at The Graun. Well a topic in the teamGB media that’s certainly testing all those tories too.

    You can have fun with that old Scots tory’s stuff too.

    eg, what have I changed here?

    Hard edges have been softened; sovereignty means less; historic anomalies such as Northern Ireland and Gibraltar have an easier time. Scotland, which had no future as a military base for a country losing its military strength, makes a better living out of selling car insurance.

    Perhaps the newsagent now sells El País. Just 36% of Scots voted to leave the EU. “

  228. Marcia says:


    You should have. It will have the prefix S followed by the amount of allowances i.e S1150L for the current tax year. If you don’t get in touch with HMRC and update your address with them. You may have lived outwith Scotland for a period or moved to Scotland but HMRC have you old address in England or Wales or NI.

  229. Indy2 says:

    Liz g

    And all the rest of the Trolls are out to play tonight.

    You lot have got to be on somebodies books?

    Nobody would sit and post the shite you lot post for free.

    You have to be paid Trolls.

    C’mon Peffers and Co, how much are you lot gettin paid???

    Two bob a post? because that’s about all your posts are worth.


  230. cearc says:

    The polling on non-voters is slightly interesting but not very enlightening as it is a poll of a small subset of people ie. those who don’t vote but do fill in political polls.

    Political polls only ever show a smallish number of ‘won’t votes’ and yet at the last election approx. half the population didn’t vote. (Remember the map showing registered voters who ‘didn’t vote’ winning masses of seats?)

    Turnout figures are based on registered voters only and it seems that around 20% of UK residents are not even registered to vote.

  231. heedtracker says:

    And all the rest of the Trolls are out to play tonight.

    It’s 10.09 am indy2, in Scotland anyway.

  232. heedtracker says:

    Stinky olde The Graun tories really boosting that Leonard nobody today. Is he the messiah/saviour of UK/BBC hegemony in their Scotland region? mais oui, bien sûr!

    Scottish Labour leader pledges radical economic reforms”


    What are they?

    SNP bad.

    Anyone can be a UKOK tory hack, red and blue:D

  233. Wings Sunday papers international section,

    Well worth a read to anyone interested in geopolitics and the wider world,

    Interview to American TV channel NBC
    Vladimir Putin answered questions from NBC anchor Megyn Kelly. The interview was recorded in the Kremlin on March 1, 2018, and in Kaliningrad on March 2, 2018,

  234. Ottomanboi says:

    It is regrettable that some in the National party see fit to jump on the anti-Russia bandwagon.
    As far as I know Salisbury is not in Scotland and the spy and his daughter had no Scottish connexions.
    The British state employs spies too, not a few active in keeping the centre informed about goings on in Scotland. It may not be physically poisoning people but it injects its own brand of existential poison by other, state approved, means.
    This rush to judgment on culpability merely serves the interests of our true enemy.

  235. heedtracker says:

    What UKOK hackdom is not reporting to its annoying Scotland region. I mean you’re never going to hear this kind of Brexit reality on the £300+ million a year beeb Scotland gimp network…

    EU has spelled out what the UK has failed to.

    The ridiculous red lines set out by Theresa May last week, designed to appease the Brexit ultras of the Tory party, mean that we can – at best – expect a Canada style Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the EU after Brexit. The full Council guidelines laying this out can be read here.

    As Kirsty Hughes of the SCER notes in her excellent assessment: “Estimates of what impact a Canada-style free trade deal could have on UK-EU trade, suggest a 35% drop in goods trade and a massive 61% drop in services trade – adding up to a 45% drop in trade overall.”

    Fact is, hard brexit is coming.

    And planet toryboy’s really coming for you now. They’re teeing up a five grand a year health insurance policy programme, because teamGB can no longer afford the NHS.

    5 grand a year UKOK health insurance is nae bad compared to what the yanks pay really.

  236. Capella says:

    We’re not the only ones who see the bias in the BBC and, specially, Question Time. There is a poetry genre about QT online:

    It’s time to park it in the garage
    If the best you’ve got is Nigel Farage
    You say your programme’s fair and square
    So why’s the SNP rarely there
    You’re just a shower of Tory shite
    A waste of space on Thursday night

  237. geeo says:

    I had someone send me a wee reminder of this earlier, from late 2015..

    10 minute rule Bill by SNP MP Angus MacNeil.

    Scots Votes for Scots Laws !

  238. DrunkenDee says:


    Sorry, I’d crawled off into bed and didn’t see your reply til just now. Thanks though and yeah my Dad was ex military (Sergeant in the Marines before he left in ’65) so I’ve read a fair few of your posts with interest about what’s going on in the UK military just now & how we’d maybe run things after indy.



    Like I said I didn’t have any issues with anything like that myself so I’m probably at fault for repeating third hand rumours but those two were Yessers I thought I had in my pocket so I was gutted when I heard they hadn’t voted and the supposed reason why.

    I didn’t believe her when I heard it at the time (a couple of days before the vote) & asked the same about reporting it and the one girl that got ‘the abuse’ said she had seriously thought about it but it was just verbal so she didn’t take it further. I’ve since wondered if she (or the canvasser) was just a Yoon disruptor trying to stir but I really don’t think she would have been since she was just a fairly well read, innocent, uni kid but I could be wrong.

    As for the canvasser, I don’t think it was at a yes stall – we did however have a lot of folks who were in the same area (reform st, high st junction) who were a lot more proactive about chasing people down and trying to get their vote that I’m sure are usually out with placards and banners in support of some socialist workers/bedroom tax/union campaign so without being able to get her to point the guys out I assumed it was one of them. Whether or not he was a real Yes Campaigner or not is another conversation entirely though.

    I’m not trying to be a ‘concern troll’ as geeo put it and I’m not just trying to tell stories (tbh I wish I’d never said anything for the amount of explaining I’m having to do now), it was an observation of what I’d heard from ‘Yessers’ that didn’t turn out.

    Take from it what you will but its not that far off what was going on on Facebook at the time where people were starting to ram their views down folks throats a bit and imho were doing more harm than good at times.

    As I said to Robert, wish I had the answers on how to convince everyone that yes is the way to go but I think we need to work on how we canvas and persuade people who aren’t already Yes… Could be a project pre indy ref 2 for someone in marketing to give tips on how to get people to buy in to an idea?

  239. DrunkenDee says:

    @Cactus at 2:14 am

    Love that tune but I’m into even heavier stuff these days myself – have tried to post my own personal anthem before but it didn’t appear (or I didn’t see it)

    Even more shouty and sweary but I want to play it at every no voter I know – Architects ‘Downfall’

  240. geeo says:

    Keep digging there DrunkenDee…

    And backtracking…

    And revising….

    Just admit it, you are talking rubbish, unsubstantiated rubbish at that. “3rd hand RUMOURS” (YOUR WORDS).

    You embarked on a Smear story, got called on it, and now are trying to dance on a pin head over it.

    At least stand by your pish ffs. Like the rest of the goon britnat/PSB’s on here.

  241. Robert Peffers says:

    @DrunkenDee says: 10 March, 2018 at 11:43 pm:

    “Like I said I don’t know how widespread that was, but just thought I’d share it, since if it put them off I’m sure there will have been others who either just said they’d vote yes (or no) to avoid the grief or heard people like that complaining/experienced similar and were switched off themselves.”

    Tell you what, DrunkenDee, how about not relying upon hearsay but upon actual authentic official statistics?

    Go do a Google, (or whatever search engine you favour), and digging out the official figures for charges and convictions for offensive and/or criminal violence throughout the entire campaign.

    You will find, in spite of SMSM fake news reports, that such legal actions are heavily slanted towards the NO campaigners.

    In fact if you just check out the number of MPs, MSPs, MEPs and members of the HOL who accused the indy movement of being NAZIs you may change your tune.

    Here is an example of just Westminster long running abuse. Count haw many times this person, Jacob Reese-Moggs, inserts deliberate abusive or pejorative terms into his speech in the HOC.

    Jacob William Rees-Mogg is an English Tory politician. A member of the hard right wing of the Conservative Party, a High Tory and social conservative with reactionary, traditionalist, and right-wing views.

    Born into a wealthy family in London. Educated at Dragon School,then Eton College and Trinity College, Oxford where he was president of the Oxford University Conservative Association.

    He worked in, “The City”, for Lloyd George Management until 2007. He co-founded the hedge fund management business, “Somerset Capital Management LLP”, and amassed a large fortune: in 2016, his and his wife had a combined net worth estimated at more than £100 million.

    Now, just in case you didn’t pick-up on the abuse here’s a hint for you. The letter, “N”, in SNP stands for, “National”, i.e. it represents the whole Nation of Scotland it does not stand for, “Nationalist”, and in case you are not aware of it there is no more nationalistic people in this old World than the English and in particular the Conservatives, (capital, “C”), for the term, “conservative”, is defined as:-

    blockquote>conservative – adjective:

    1. averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.

    And those conservative values include the, so called, “British Empire”, that even now includes their sole partner kingdom in the so called United Kingdom that Westminster now treats exactly the same way it treats the pre-Union two Kingdom of England dominions of the countries of Wales and N. Ireland.

    Scotland is an, equally sovereign, partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom, but Reese-Mogg thinks otherwise.

  242. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    red lines set out by Theresa May …. mean that we can – at best – expect a Canada style Free Trade Agreement

    Indeed. To me it sounds like a ‘Canada’ deal is closer to No Deal than to full membership on the spectrum.

    Free Trade with no quotas and tariffs doesn’t not mean frictionless borders. No customs union means goods whose origin is a third country needs to be identified because EU tariffs still apply.

    So why is nothing much happening? That is going to need staff, admin systems and infrastructure. Things need to be built, staff need to be trained.

    Also, Ireland. TMay can’t sign off Phase One as a legally binding treaty because it will inevitably mean a hard border in the sea. The DUP won’t have that. So TMay’s government falls.

    Then no progress towards a Transition Deal is possible.

    In fact, it sounds like no progress is being made until the UK clarify what they thing will happen with Ireland.

    I have always assumed there was logic in an ostrich burying its head it sand – it’s waiting for the storm to end.

    But the Tories have their heads in the sand while waiting for the storm to begin!

  243. the wasp says:

    Highland Wifie @ 10.45

    Good point, well made.

  244. heedtracker says:

    Scotland is an, equally sovereign, partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom, but Reese-Mogg thinks otherwise.”

    Great read Rab!

    Rees Mogg earned his £100+ million fortune the old fashioned toryboy way, by always being polite to father.

    But that’s only half the Rees Mogg road to riches

    It has been overwhelmingly evident throughout the interview that the Honourable Jacob Rees-Mogg MP is a member of that rare and happy breed who have been able to turn their passion into a career — in his case, doubly so. Whatever his political future, it’s safe to assume that he will be keeping a weather eye on the markets for many years to come, if only to manage the Mogg millions.”

    Rees Mogg’s hedge fund Somerset Capital Management, $7.6-billion. That’s a lot of tory boy power.

    Strong and Stable Teresa’s husband’s hedge fund’s double Rees Mogg’s too

    That Spectator thing about Rees Mogg campaigning in Fife from his Bentley, probably also explains why there are so many unionists in Fife today:D

  245. Glamaig says:

    heedtracker says:
    11 March, 2018 at 10:36 am

    ‘As Kirsty Hughes of the SCER notes in her excellent assessment: “Estimates of what impact a Canada-style free trade deal could have on UK-EU trade, suggest a 35% drop in goods trade and a massive 61% drop in services trade – adding up to a 45% drop in trade overall.”

    Fact is, hard brexit is coming.’

    Even the Canada-style FTA is not going to happen until the Irish Border solution is found, and it wont be while the Tories need the DUP. Westminster is paralysed. Large numbers of both Tory and Labour MPs fearing a Leaver backlash in their constituencies if they even back the Single Market, and Corbyn is being a dick.

    Cant see there being a GE because the Tories wouldnt risk losing.

    Could be a No Deal.

    Meanwhile the media gloss over it all.

    The UK is so f*cked, please can we get outta here!

  246. heedtracker says:

    galamcennalath says:
    11 March, 2018 at 11:12 am
    heedtracker says:

    Yes but… its really important to keep in mind that UK gov is working extremely hard getting ready for Brexit. There’s a whole ministry of Brexit,

    Catchy title.

    Clearly this set up’s ensuring that no matter what massed ranks of beeb gimps brainwash us with in the coming year, a great tory triumph of Britishness etc, there is no going back.

    We’re an ex EU member state, or rather Scotland’s a region, of an ex EU member state.

    Question really is, how are middle class Scots going to react to it all.

    Scottish middle class were pretty solid NO, 2014. So they’re in for an interesting time next year, to say the least.

    If they change their UKOK minds, it really is all over for UK rule in Scotland. Not even BBC Scotland could stop it all.

  247. HandandShrimp says:

    Happy Mother’s Day to you all*

    *thinks he has really cracked this gender neutral thing

  248. galamcennalath says:

    Glamaig says:

    Could be a No Deal.

    Yes. Something pretty major needs to change for that not to be the case.

    heedtracker says:

    how are middle class Scots going to react to it all.

    They like there European-ness. They love their wealth and status. If the penny drops that it is WM that is their biggest threat then, as you say, game over for the UK.

  249. Liz Rannoch says:

    Nana – great links as per usual. Thank you.

    Especially the one @ galamcennalath highlights at 9.45am

    A bit disappointed that Peter A Bell left it ‘til the last couple of paragraphs to mention HOOP (‘most folks just read the headlines’!) IMO the actual HOOP facebook site isn’t brilliant, however, I got an email from Dunfermline Yes promoting this event which had a ‘flyer’ from HOOP in it.

    Fri 23 March 10-5pm
    10am Gathering
    11 Stewards update
    12 Hands around the parliament (saltire/rampant flags required for link-up) What? No enough folk coming?
    1.30 Rolling Thunder – bikers
    2.00 Show of shields – bring yer own targe
    3.00 Car convoy
    All Day speakers corner. They have 13 folk listed including WGD, James Kelly and Gordon Ross + more tbc.

    Please also see

    Indycar Ross on HOOP (a bit on AIM out of date now) and.. CSI.. rather than SIC – great idea!

    Really, really hope that I’ve done that right!

    Given what has happened this past week I think this MUST be a success. Imagine the fun rooth the mooth and PQ would have with ‘about 200 people turned up’. Let’s SHOW them that there is an appetite for indy, that we will NOT be turfed out of our parly. Get this out there folks!
    I’m not on twitter thing and although I’m on facebook (‘thanks’ to my daughter) I haven’t a clue how it works!

  250. Ken500 says:

    The list is getting longer. Jost post a list of all the commentators. It will save any problem and necessity of avidly reading and digesting of any comment. Or just pass by as all are mainly misunderstood. Or alternatively just get to feck. Annoying little Indy troll Indy2 troll. Indy2 is coming. The dues are paid and anyone can contribute. Just get back under the rock. Useless.

  251. cearc says:

    Patrick Harvie (or should that be Harvy?) must be delighted to see the difference his green party votes have had in Glasgow today.

  252. Ken500 says:

    Happy Mother’s Day to all who have mother. Available. They do a grand job in every way. Ensuring the survival of the Plant. Thanks for all you do. Extremely busy important duties. Thanks to all. Where would people be without you. Not far. Best wishes to all every available day.

    A special thanks Nana.

  253. wull2 says:

    Thanks Marcia,
    Does people that are unemployed or over 60 have a Scottish tax code.

  254. heedtracker says:

    Just in case you thought SLab were getting weirder by the red tory day in their Scotland region, up pops just one more imperial master, to make it more so.

    Labour’s Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has said he won’t be making any more appearances on Kremlin-sponsored TV station Russia Today.

    He said RT’s coverage “goes beyond objective journalism” and it was “right”, after events in Salisbury, that Labour MPs did not appear on it.


    If that spook was nearly murdered by the Kremlin, why is Lab boycotting Russian tv going to bring them to UK heal, etc?

  255. Ottomanboi says:

    Scottish fisherfolk can sleep easy, happy in the knowledge ‘proud Scots’ Gove and Davidson are at the helm. All together now ‘The fishermen of England….*

  256. Clootie says:

    …is it just me or do others think this Russian hit is a load of b……..s!

    He could have been taken out be a hit and run, a mugging, etc but no. Those Russions are so thick they use a complex agent that can be traced directly to them (allegedly). This incompetent plan would ensure that they got lots of bad publicity.

    ….the British State really do think we are stupid…in my opinion. It has been a very useful deflection from Brexit….in my opinion…I know “cynic”

  257. HandandShrimp says:


    It is a tricky one. On face value it does look odd that Russia would do something so cack handed and stupid which does make one wonder about conspiracy theories, wedges etc. On the other hand maybe the Russian security services really are that stupid and crass.

    I can’t decide at the moment. If it was Russia then it is probably time for trade sanctions at a UN level. If it was a third party then they need their collars’ felt.

  258. wull2 says:

    Is it a squirrel, the beast from the east, Russia or anything that’s not Brexit.

  259. wee bud says:

    I see Douglas Ross is doing his full-time job at the lovely spectacle that is the old firm derby.. Probably increase his majority if he keeps it up, going on this performance..

  260. Hamish100 says:


    who knows — next thing there be a story of bad nasty leftie charities abusing there power overseas to help those poor for……… oops sorry- we did that one. Another week gone.

  261. heedtracker says:

    ….the British State really do think we are stupid…in my opinion. It has been a very useful deflection from Brexit….in my opinion…I know “cynic”

    It sure is. Also, this is probably the Kremlin telling all its spooks in Russia and beyond, if you’re a ("Tractor" - Ed), this is your fate and we will kill your family too.

    Clearly our imperial tory masters have gone toryboy beeb gimp tonto with it all. Its a been all the BBC r4 gimps have talked about since they decided to go massive last week.

    But maybe the bigger a deal the UK/BBC makes of it, Kremlin might back off a bit. Getting smeared endlessly by the most trusted public broadcaster in the UKOK galaxy, is not that great a look for any regime, even for a deadly super rich kleptocratic nutter like Putin.

    KGB did not disband when the Cold War ended, just changed its name.

  262. Flower of Scotland says:

    Cootie! It’s the “Russians are coming” all over again. Of course Seb Coe and co. managed to get the Ruskies booted out of the Winter Olympics so now they’re aiming at disrupting the World Cup with a wee bit of help from the Americans!

    I’m no great supporter of Russia, but this is getting ridiculous!

    Sky, Beeb et al are trying to brainwash everyone again by repeating the poison Spy story over and over again.

    Hi Robert Peffers, when some folk have a go at you, we all know that you are educating us and these Yoons hate it that Scots might actually learn some real Scottish history. You carry on, your comments are always so interesting.

  263. Liz Rannoch says:

    A red squirrel?

  264. Ken500 says:

    Rees Mogg can make as many tosh speacherd he like. It does not take from the fact he is a criminal. A tax evader, liar, Party to illegally sanctioning and starving people. A criminal offence committing murder. Embezzling public funds on a colossal scale for years. A dirty little cheating lying crook. Now once again intent to bring the the world economic down further in every way. To continue to tax evade. A greedy, evil psychopath. By their own admission, they describe themselves as ‘psycho bastards’. When are they going to be stopped getting away with it. Fraud, corruption and lies at every level. Totally tanking the economy and party to killing people worldwide.

    All the Westminster cabinet and the supposed opposition could be counted in it. When are they going to be stopped from this according to the Law. Be charged and convicted for their fraud and murder. It has been going on since 1928 and before? No much they try to deny it.

  265. cearc says:

    I dunno know much (anything) about football but are they supposed to have a linesman who is a public supporter of one of the teams playing?

    I thought refs/linesmen were supposed to be neutral.

  266. Lenny Hartley says:

    Re red russian squirrel, i would pee my pants if they discovered that the pair of them had just being spraying undiluted “Roundup ” in their garden and the wind changed 🙂

  267. Cactus says:

    The queens eleven beaten by the Celtic X at Edmiston Dr.

    Scotland wins by a knockout.

    Have a happy Sunday.

    In one, indeed.


  268. Undeadshuan says:

    Brexit touting started ……..Normandy advertising for uk companies to move there

  269. TD says:

    Robert Louis at 7.36 a.m.

    I agree with much of what you say. When we are discussing what can and cannot be done, or what should or should not be done, we need to be clear about the context within which we are making that statement. So I could say “under the UK constitution, Scotland can be removed from the EU”. That would be true. I could simultaneously say “it is completely immoral and undemocratic for Scotland to be taken out of the EU”. That would also be true, in my opinion.

    In my original comment at 12.16 p.m. yesterday, I said that under their (Westminster’s) rules, they could do what they wanted. That is true. Under Scots law, where the people are sovereign, I don’t believe it is true. So there is a conflict between UK law and Scottish law.

    When there is a contradiction between two overlapping sets of rules like this, the result is always that both sides make sweeping assertions based on the law that suits their purpose. So we get simultaneous assertions that Scotland can and cannot be taken out of the EU against its will.

    I can think of only two ways to resolve this. The first is that it could be taken to court and the courts rule on which law takes precedence. The case would almost certainly end up in the UK supreme court. If we were quick, it might just get to the European Court of Justice before we are out of the EU. The irony of the EU Court ruling that Scotland could not be taken out of the EU just before Brexit day is almost too sweet to contemplate.

    The second way to resolve it is to hold indeyref2, win and become independent. That way, we could say without fear of contradiction that whatever the position was in 2018, in 2019, as an independent country, Scots law takes precedence.

    Personally, I think pursuing the two approaches in parallel is the way to go. That would sustain pressure on the UK government on two fronts while they are already collapsing under the weight of Brexit. We should strike while the enemy is weak, so to speak.

  270. heedtracker says:

    When are they going to be stopped from this according to the Law. Be charged and convicted for their fraud and murder. It has been going on since 1928 and before? No much they try to deny it.”

    We’re brainwashed by all the usual UKOK gang that we must worship Winston Churchill, who sent the tanks in to Glasgow city, to stop Glaswegians striking.

    Bolsheviks, Winston called Glaswegians.

  271. Andy-B says:

    SNP MSP takes vile abuse from the knuckle dragging Union Bears.

  272. Sinky says:

    Another good piece in Sunday Herald (and a great front page).

    Meanwhile the Tory supporting Scotland On Sunday has no mention of Westminster’s power grab.

  273. Tinto Chiel says:

    @TD 2.18: thoughtful post.

    If the Supreme Court over-rules Scots Law on the sovereignty question is it not itself contravening the Act of Union?

    Your two-prong approach is attractive and an ECJ decision in our favour would be sublime. I can’t believe the SG, which has a good few lawyers in its ranks, will be unaware of all the legal angles.

  274. Giving Goose says:

    Now that the Unionists seem likely to succeed with making sectarianism legal in Scotland, I think it’s about time they invented a video or board game around the Union Bear movement.

    I propose “Guess the IQ” as the game’s title.

    It’s definitely a goer!

  275. Meg merrilees says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, Scotland and N.Ireland voted to remain in the EU.

    How come the DUP and Bertie Armstrong are calling all the shots? The are dictating terms to T May on how we should LEAVE the EU but… we voted to remain???

    Nicola and co have been arguing the finer points for months, now we’ve reached ‘High Noon’ ( as MacWhirter calls it) still no mention of this impasse in most of the Scottish papers yet full headlines to Gove and Davidson who are warning T May to take us straight out if the CFP asap. If it works, they will get all the credit and if it fails – it will be SNP’s fault.
    What’s all this ‘if’?
    T May is going to negotiate it away as part of her 24 extra powers she wants to retain, Truthless Davidson should be getting behind the SCOTTISH government and demanding that the devolved powers are returned en masse.

    She, and Grovel are blatantly lying to the Scottish fishing fleet, they know that T Mayhem thinks that Scottish fishing is ‘expendable’ and they know that our fishermen will lose.

    High time their hypocrisy was called out.

  276. yesindyref2 says:

    Could have been a unionist agitator, or even a student yesser going over the top. I was in the student union for the count, and there was one of our company went well over the top, drunk and quite obnoxious. A few of the unionists ones did as well, in your face kind of thing as every result came through. Mind you, in fairness, if it had been a YES it would probably have been the other way around from some there. Glad to hear it wasn’t the stall though, you’re always going to get a few individuals.

    Glad you read my defence posts, glad someone does!

  277. heedtracker says:

    She, and Grovel are blatantly lying to the Scottish fishing fleet, they know that T Mayhem thinks that Scottish fishing is ‘expendable’ and they know that our fishermen will lose.”

    Fishing folk in Scotland have been told that no deal Brexit and bombing out of the EU will be great because that will mean ALL UK territorial waters would no longer be accessible to anyone else.

    Bertie Armstrong has explained frequently that it’ll be like the old days, with the giant klondike fishing fleets waiting offshore to buy all the Scottish fish, that the EU will of course no longer be buying. The whole world wants to buy his Scottish only fish, even if the EU refuse to, says Bertie.

    A lot actually believe this. Bertie says look to Iceland Scottish fishing folks, that’s what you’re going to get with Brexit.

    He may be right.

  278. schrodingers cat says:


    i think your analysis is spot on, i cant see this ending any other way,

    in truth, if all this huff and puff by the tories was to end in the next few weeks, it would serve us better, if they walk out now it would give us time to launch and hold indyref2 before the 29 mar 2019

  279. Dave McEwan Hill says:


  280. geeo says:

    With the New Continuity Bill doubling as a Sovereignty affirmation tool, and an effective barrier to the WM EU power grab, it seems WM now has ONE SINGLE option left to defend the Union.

    An indyref, WITH a Section 30, held at a time of OUR Scottish Government’s choice.

    ANYTHING else leads to a courtroom, affirmation of Scots Sovereign power of the People of Scotland, and the end of the Union, on grounds of WM subjugating of said Scots people’s sovereignty.

    The SG have aligned the planets to this point in history, and completely blindsided WM in the process.

    That’s some answer to those who thought they were behind the curve huh ?

  281. TD says:

    Tinto Chiel at 2.58 p.m.

    “If the Supreme Court over-rules Scots Law on the sovereignty question is it not itself contravening the Act of Union?”

    I don’t know. Possibly. In a way, that is the nub of the matter. Did the Act of Union extinguish the established Scottish law that the people are sovereign? And if it did, why in 1989 did every Labour MP (except Tam Dalyell) and every Liberal MP sign the Scottish Constitutional Convention which states that they “hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs”? And why did the Lord President (Scotland’s most senior judge) in McCormack v Lord Advocate state “the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law”?

    If the UK Supreme Court over-ruled the Court of Session, politically it would be another nail in the coffin of the UK. And it would raise the prospect of taking the case to Europe. So my view is that we could not lose by taking the case to court. If we win – great. If we lose, we win politically.

    Theoretically, anyone could pursue this in the Scottish Courts. However, it would be far better if the Lord Advocate, as a government minister and chief law officer, pursued the case on behalf of the Scottish Government. I can see no reason not to do it – who knows, perhaps this is part of Nicola’s master plan.

  282. yesindyref2 says:

    Totally agree with your analysis of the Continuity Bill situation, that’s how I see it too. It’s very possible this was anticipated even before the EU Referendum, the devolved matters that are EU based were debated in Indy Ref 1 about our possible EU continued / transitioned membership and potential irrevocable EU citizenship way back them.

    I’d guess even then there was a pool of “legal advice in the context of the Indy Ref” as Salmond roughly put it, but like all such legal advice, if you’re likely to use it you don’t tell anyone what it is – same as Wolffe now.

    Oh, and Wolffe has wanted to take things like sovereignty in Scotland to court for many years, since the Devo Ref certainly, but I think also before – and long before he was the Lord Advocate (it was Mulholland).

  283. louis.b.argyll says:

    For 300 years across the globe,
    Indigenous populations are deported,
    The rich get richer,
    The disadvantaged become slaves,
    The rich get richer,
    The poor become cannon fodder,
    Wars are won,
    The rich get richer,
    Independent thought is suppressed,
    A politicised middle class is created,
    The richest of the rich become richer,
    War is spread further afield,
    The rich get richer,
    The disadvantaged become marginalised,
    The middle class becomes richer,
    The poor get poorer,
    Wars are maintained,
    Slavery returns,
    Zenophobia returns,
    Elites now rule,
    Rich countries place tarrifs on poor ones,
    Foreign workers are demonised,
    Fascism is hidden by elite media owners.
    The rich now hide behind fascists,
    The poor get poorer,
    Misery is humanity’s new normal.


  284. heedtracker says:


    They do and oh how they wish the EU would crash and burn too.

    I’ll never forget likes of BBC gimp of the millennium Jim Naughtie, slime all over Europe’s top fascists and nazis, summer 2016 especially, for BBC news from Europe.

    Its hard to gauge which is worse, beeb gimps like the present crew or their UKOK imperial master elite.

  285. Shinty says:

    Flower of Scotland

    Agree completely – I grew up at a time when we even blamed the Russian’s for the weather.

    IMHO, Russia is not be on the top of my list of Scotland’s enemies. Scotland’s enemies are far closer to home. (as always)

  286. galamcennalath says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    if all this huff and puff by the tories was to end in the next few weeks, it would serve us better, if they walk out now it would give us time to launch and hold indyref2 before the 29 mar 2019

    Too true.

    Although the loyal BritNat media is hiding the situation, I think it has all stalled until the UK accepts no border in Ireland. And that means NO infrastructure at all. It can’t stay stalled for long!

    The next stage is for the UK to sign up to Phase 1 which includes an Irish solution. Heaven knows how they’ve get that past the hard right and the DUP.

    I’ve also heard nonsense about deals being done close to next March. Nope. It has to be agreed by October so 27 countries and parliaments can ratify it.

    It all should like – nae chance – to me.

    The only question is really, IMO, how soon do the Tories admit all this?

  287. Dr Jim says:

    According to the Daily Records political editor David Clegg
    the position of Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party is *Don’t focus on what we say just vote for us because* and he went to great pains to tell us that today, and you always know when David Clegg’s getting anxious because he starts spittling at the corners of his mouth and waving his hands around in a pleading like fashion when he’s attempting to convince us all that Labour are really good honest they are

    The problem with David Cleggs argument that Labour is really good but just very poor at expressing that they’re really good is every adult in the country has heard these same excuses for Labour …always, when in fact they express themselves very accurately because when they don’t deliver the promises that they ask people to make up in their own heads Labour can then refer back to what they actually said which was the tripe coming out of their mouths at the time they actually said it, giving them total deniability of everything people *thought* they voted for

    Honesty has always been a long standing difficulty of Labour, they just don’t know how to do it, but what they do hope to do is convince a new young generation of hopefuls who have never seen this tactic before then proceed to dissapoint them just the same way they’ve always done to our generation

    I wouldn’t trust Jeremy Corbyn if my head was on fire and he promised to put it out, Richard Leonard?, well you just can’t do anything other than sigh deeply at this apology of a man

  288. Ken500 says:

    Labour are useless incompetents and so is the Clegg/DR. What a pity so people are suckers in to believe the stuff and nonsense. A pack of liars. They all are intent on being out of a job. Clegg will go the same way as no doubt Foote working for the Labour Party. All useless together.

    Msybwill be gone before the year is out. The Tories will follow. The idea of Corbyn in charge does not bear thinking about. The absolute total, chaos and mess of the Westminster unionists. It is just appalling.

  289. Ken500 says:

    A central bank is needed as soon as possible. Easy to set up. It is being done. Before a IndyRef is called? An IndyRef will be called when the administration necessity are put in place, Needed to win. The administration/legal will be putting in place. It take quite a while, months not years, for the Indy Ref to put in gear.

    Even McWhirter is starting to waken up. How long will that mast?

  290. jfngw says:

    Davidson calls for UK to leave Common Fisheries Policy, but backs May to join a Fisheries Common Policy. What’s the odds of this receiving headline BBC Scotland treatment, not 6th in running order.

    Davidson speaks, BBC Scotland Headline. Davidson runs, BBC Scotland shrugs shoulders.

  291. jfngw says:

    Neil Findlay announces that Labour is only 4 points behind SNP in opinion poll. Labour intends to expand the next poll to beyond UK Labour (Scotland) conference delegates.

  292. Socrates MacSporran says:

    jfngw @ 5.57pm

    Or, to put it another way – the London Tories are The Judean People’s Front; the Ruth Davidson not the Tory Party, say no to an Independence referendum Party are actually the People’s Front for Judea. Glad “Colonel Yadaftie” cleared that up.

  293. Hamish100 says:

    The BBC quote Davidson and Gove as ‘Proud Scots..’ in relation to the fisheries debate.

    When the trawlers from Grimsby and other English ports take our fish they will become proud Brits! Mind you looks like London Tories are touting Scottish fishing waters away as a price worth paying. Will the britnats fishing fraternity in Peterhead etc be pleased ? Who knows? Who cares? Maybe wee Bertie Armstrong of Ulstur will sing rule Britannia as the jobs in processing are lost.

  294. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:

    The only question is really, IMO, how soon do the Tories admit all this?

    i think they want to spin this out for as long as they can, but the EU are losing patience, either treeza publishes her proposal for ni or the negotiations stop. that has piled the pressure on treeza.

    we are nearing the end game

  295. Al Dossary says:

    We need look no further than Iceland in 1974 and the Cod wars to guage Westminster’s respect for sovereign countries

    After the Hull and Grimsby fleets had decimated English waters of Cod they turned their sights on Icelands stocks.

    Royal Navy vessels were sent north with the fleets to “protect” the English trawlers from Icelands navy – which basically consisted of coastguard cutters whose only weapon was a tool towed behind them designed to cut the English trawl.wires

    And guarenteed they would show the same callous attitude to an Independent Scotland’s fishng grounds were she to be without the protection of the EU.

    We can expect some big cases at the Hague over oil and gas – but also who exactly has the right to claim Rockall as their own. That particular island is I think claimed by Ireland, Iceland and the UK (plus perhaps the Faroes).

    There was a reason behind someone kipping up in a tent on that rock all those years ago.

  296. Hamish100 says:

    Further to the Cods war which tiny Iceland won
    Why did they win ? In wiki it states that ..The final Cod War concluded in 1976 with a highly favourable agreement for Iceland, as the United Kingdom conceded to a 200-nautical-mile (370-kilometre) Icelandic exclusive fishery zone following threats that Iceland would withdraw from NATO, which would have forfeited NATO’s access to most of the GIUK gap, a critical anti-submarine warfare chokepoint during the Cold War.
    Is there something to be learned there?

  297. wull2 says:

    There is always some good comes out of everything.
    After today, more people from no to YES.

  298. Sinky says:

    On Tory lies over CAP and fishing Read Orkney News

    Fishing after Brexit

  299. galamcennalath says:

    following threats that Iceland would withdraw from NATO …. Is there something to be learned there?

    Scotland can learn a lot by looking at the small countries around us.

    Like the way Norway handles large oil companies and the benefits it gets from managing many of its fields with its own state company.

    Or the influence small countries have in the EU.

    Or the way the EU is sticking up for Ireland over Brexit.

    Or how Nordic countries have the happiest populations in the world.

    I’m sure a long list could be compiled with a little bit of research!

  300. heedtracker says:

    We can expect some big cases at the Hague over oil and gas – but also who exactly has the right to claim Rockall as their own. That particular island is I think claimed by Ireland, Iceland and the UK (plus perhaps the Faroes)”

    There was an English dude from Edinburgh trying to live on Rockall around indyref1, for that union jack draped claim. Stinky olde The Graun went huge with it but I think he got washed off.

    Real reason teamGB lost the Cod war with Iceland, Iceland threaten to close the huge Cold war NATO air base on the island.

    Otherwise its likely the RN would have sunk Icelandic shipping. The Spanish were also majorly hacked off about losing Icelandic cod stocks.

    Are they ready to get blocked out of Brexit UK waters too?

    Icelandic fish industry employs a big UK processing industry too, for access to, wait for it, the EU.

    If that’s lost…

  301. Ken500 says:

    May made a deal in a December with the EU commission, Negotiated and agreed that NI would continue to be in the single market. To solve the border issue. That is when it was dated that progress was being made. May has now reneged upon it. Lied and broken her word. (as usual). They is why they gave washed their hand if it and total her to come up with any proposal for resolution.

    May is between the Devil and the deep Irish Sea. If she dumps them they will dump her. She is actually in an intransigent position. There is no where to move. She is blocked in. Chess Mate. No where to turn.

    @ ‘They were in with opt outs. Now they are (want) out with opt ins.

    She will be gone by the end of the year. It was the EU division among the Tories that finally got rid of Thatcher. There were riots in the south etc. Violent protests. Interest rates at 15% and over 3million unemployed. Inflation rife, The Tories were sanctioning and starving people. Social unrest. It was finally division about the EU among the Tories which finally did her in. She bullied them that was the last straw. She was gone. Greeting face. She became a further figure of ridicule. Eventually the Tories (Major) were defeated.. Blair. That did not go very well.

    What has taken down wages and low paid jobs. Is the money that should be in the economy to improve facilities, essential services and support higher wages. Is being taken out of the economy and used to fund illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The Westminster criminals use public money to bomb other people’s houses and homes to bits. (causing migration). Instead of building houses and homes for people in the UK and providing better wages and support for the population.

    Remember when Cameron gain power on promises to protect the NHS. The PR bleating heart Act. About his son etc. He was actually making plans to demolish it. Cutting funding £4Billion a year over five years 2015-20. Ruining healthcare and condition in the rest of the UK. The SNP protected it and increased funding in Scotland.

  302. Macart says:


    Just got back from a bit of familial care for the past couple of days and playing catch up. How and ever, on your point of stalling and timescale? Couldn’t agree more.

    The short answer is – for as long as they can. I’ve said from the get go, May needs time and at every opportunity they’ve drawn out a process to the very last second available. This will be no different.

    She’ll attempt to spin out every single part of this till the very end. That being brexit itself. She’s lined up her scapegoats (Ireland, N. Ireland, Scotland, EU and assorted ministers) and simply needs to let nature take its course.

    Her problem, is that other than her helpers in N.I. (see under DUP) and those in Scotland (see under Ruthie, Leonard and thingy) her main asset is a media, that WILL turn on her like a rabid ferret, the second things look like going wrong for them.

    She faces a strong Scottish government who will NOT give an inch without a fight. She faces an EU that literally hold the short term economic fate of the UK in the palm of hands. Finally she faces neighbours in Ireland who are becoming less sympathetic by the day.

    Then there’s the wild card Spain and Gibraltar. (that bird is yet to come home to roost)

    All the EU requires is one member to knock back any proposal the UK makes and they could collectively send the UK’s economy back to the stone age. Mind you, trading furs and stag horn may be no bad thing.

    So yes, she needs time and a biblical amount of spin to sell the unthinkable and implausible to the populations of the UK.

  303. Gfaetheblock says:


    I am still not sure that you understand what a Central Bank is or does. Scotland is not currently setting one up and nor could it whilst it is part of the United Kingdom . Scotland is looking to set up an investment bank . You are in danger of confusing people here with this disinformation.

  304. heedtracker says:

    Gfaetheblock says:
    11 March, 2018 at 8:41 pm

    I am still not sure that you understand what a Central Bank is or does.

    Is this because the Bank of England is Scotland’s central bank?

    Meaning that its reserved fiscal powers like setting interest rates and borrowing, only for the Bank of England?

    Why is it not called the Bank of Britain or Bank of UK?

  305. Rock says:


    “FPTP is the most supported, The easiest to administrate. The simplest to understand. The most practical. That reflects voters choice. The only one that gets rid of candidates that do not have voters support.”

    But it is very undemocratic and unfair.

    The SNP got 56 out of 59 MPs (95%) with 50% of the vote. How can that be fair? Before that the SNP used to get less than their fair share of MPs.

    In the earlier years of the Scottish parliament, the SNP would have had hardly any MSPs under “first-past-the-post”. There would never have been SNP governments in Scotland under “first-past-the-post”.

    Even if it gets the Guardian reader’s Slovene (ex-)girlfriend into the Scottish parliament, proportional representation is a good and fair system.

    In how many Scottish seats did the SNP get more than 50% of the vote?

    Your beloved “first-past-the-post” would backfire spectacularly as unionists would vote tactically (as they did at the last Westminster election) and the SNP would be left with no more than a handful of seats.

  306. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “Scotland is an, equally sovereign, partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom, but Reese-Mogg thinks otherwise.”

    Scotland has effectively been a colony of England for the last 311 years.

    “equally sovereign” my foot.

  307. heedtracker says:

    Even if it gets the Guardian reader’s Slovene (ex-)girlfriend into the Scottish parliament, proportional representation is a good and fair system.

    PR also got us list MSP Nic Sturgeon, Rock. Funny you forget that.

    Why should electoral processes be written in stone, brought down from the Mount, from God almighty.

    Also, this toryboy’s toryboy likes PR too, so it really must be keeping his yoonion and planet toryboy in power in his Scotland region.

    So off you go Brian Spanner, zoom zooooooom.

  308. stewartb says:

    Hamish100 @ 7:04 pm

    You write: “The BBC quote Davidson and Gove as ‘Proud Scots..’ in relation to the fisheries debate.”

    I noted this too in the BBC’s online coverage today of ‘Scottish politics’. It also gives Davidson and Gove profile in its headline and publishes smiling photos of them – “Gove and Davidson in fisheries control call” – and then that the two “teamed up” no less. Gove is the relevant Secretary of State, so calling on himself?

    Fergus Ewing, the SNP and the Scottish Government do get mentioned in the body of the article but not in the headline; with no photos; (obviously!) not referred at as ‘Proud Scots’; and are not linked to the ‘backing the fishermen’ phrase.

    The online article is probably in no way inaccurate – just carefully framed in a way to give Gove and Davidson the best profile.

    The headline could of course just as well have been “SNP and Tories both call for fisheries control” – even “Tories and SNP call for fisheries control” – but that would have involved the editor deliberately choosing to frame differently.


    On another matter, I’d be interested in views on BBC Scotland’s editorial decision to ignore (as far as I can see) what happened outside Ibrox today – an organised ‘march’, without Local Authority license, organised by a politically motivated (note it is UNION Bears) and extreme sectarian group (see promotional leaflet and event logo) supported by hundreds(?) with leaders wearing black balaclavas, on a Scottish street.

    BBC showing sensible caution, not giving these extremists publicity? Balancing out the BBC’s lack of coverage of Yes marches? (!!) Continuing its preference for airbrushing out the unpleasant, extreme aspects of British Nationalism/Unionism that they showed when ignoring what happened in George Square immediately after Indyref1?

    I don’t wish to be alarmist, but what happened today before the match at Ibrox seems to be a provocation and an escalation that no-one in Scottish civic society should be left unaware of or relaxed about.

  309. heedtracker says:

    Euan is on good toryboy form today. Who knew so many toryboy’s loved Scottish feetball so much.


    Brian Spanner

    3h3 hours ago

    There is a growing movement of Scottish Nationalists who chose their food shopping by the flag/country of origin.

    If this is civic nationalism i’d hate to see the other kind.


    And its a good tory hackdom question too, is there a food taint if its wrapped up in union jacks?

    My highly successful vile sep campaign to get Morrisons to not use union jack boxes on their delicious packets of five doughnuts, has made them much nicer without that union jack food taint.

    Not only are Morrisons doughnuts even more delicious in great big Scotland flag boxes, the extremely hot customer services lady says they sell like er, hot cakes, too.

    If you’re out their toryboy’s, try some, custard filling today was yummy, sans union jack food taint:-)

  310. sassenach says:

    heedtracker – like you I stopped buying those delicious doughnuts when they introduced the Butcher’s Apron wrapper, now they are in Saltire wrappings they do taste even nicer. Well done Morrisons (or you, perhaps!!).

  311. heedtracker says:


    Its all down to me! Also trying to chat up the Morrisons customer services lady, who laughed her head off at it too. But she’s I think Lithuanian and I asked if there was this kind of flegs on scoff carry on in Europe and she’s says not.

    Its a very British thing maybe, in Scotland. She gave me a suggestion form and zip zap zooeee! union jack boxed Morrisons doughnut boxes are no more. Although they probably are still a thing in the England Brexit zone.

    Also, for the history of Scotland’s route back to nation statehood annals, I didn’t actually ask Morrisons to put their delicious doughnuts, (salted caramel are the best) in Scotland flag boxes, because, well I am not that nuts, yet:D

  312. Gfaetheblock says:


    The BoE is so called as it it was created before the act of union.

    But yes, it is the central for the uk.

  313. Rock says:


    “PR also got us list MSP Nic Sturgeon, Rock. Funny you forget that.”

    It is not me but the likes of you and Ken500 who are forgetting that with your illogical support for “first-past-the-post”:


    “Do you think Westminster’s “first-past-the-post” is more representative?”


    “Yes because it’s probably as close as possible right now, to how Scotland votes, nation state or teamGB region.”


    “In the earlier years of the Scottish parliament, the SNP would have had hardly any MSPs under “first-past-the-post”. There would never have been SNP governments in Scotland under “first-past-the-post”.”

  314. heedtracker says:


    “In the earlier years of the Scottish parliament, the SNP would have had hardly any MSPs under “first-past-the-post”. There would never have been SNP governments in Scotland under “first-past-the-post”

    Fair enough but is this what’s happened in Scotland? SNP sneaked in on the list and now all the unionists in Scotland, red tories, blue tories, 37 tory rags, STV, the great beeb Scotland gimp network are going to get SNP out, PR next time Rock?

    Yoons picked PR for a reason, to keep Scottish democracy from flourishing because it could and may well, end this farce union with England.

    Nothing in democracy should be unchangeable.

  315. Cactus says:

    “This posting is dedicated to all the Wings Over Scotland fans who stuck with us…

    Through all the fuckin’ shit…

    And to all those opposed..

    Hmm, well.”


  316. stewartb says:

    heedtracker @t 9:37 pm

    Always delighted to be alerted to a contribution from Brian Spanner who you report wrote: “There is a growing movement of Scottish Nationalists who chose their food shopping by the flag/country of origin. If this is civic nationalism I’d hate to see the other kind.”

    Knowing that there is no such thing as British Nationalism, I was perplexed with Mr Spanner’s remarks. Was I mistaken in remembering various “Buy British” campaigns in past decades?

    “But it is surely common sense that if we collectively make more of an effort to buy goods and services where value has been added in this country (I say nothing about ownership), then we will be helping to boost employment, and helping to reduce the costs of welfare that we all fund in our taxes. All we need is to be more aware of what we produce – and when you dig into it, the answers are amazing.”

    Source: Boris Johnson, 31 Dec 2012

    The several ‘Buy British’ campaigns over past decades have had political support from different UK parties. However, as always this is irrelevant. Clearly campaigning to buy British things with a Union flag is ‘good’, but preferring to buy Scottish, labelled with a Saltire, is very, very ‘bad’.

  317. James Barr Gardner says:

    Will you be at HOOPS?
    Will you be holding hands with your back to the Scottish Parliament?
    Will you be with me on the Salisbury Crags?
    If the answer is no to all three are you MI5 ?

  318. Cactus says:

    Celtic 3 : Sevco 2.

    It could have been 3 : 3.

    How did ye miss that open goal ya walloper…

    Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

    Ha ha ha.

  319. Meg merrilees says:

    Calling any fluent gaelic speakers – mine isn’t good enough! – please can you summarise this article for us.

    Caught the item on BBC Alba – looks like the Tories are trying to win over the Western isles seafood fishermen – who voted Remain I think? – into trusting the UK gov to get them a good deal for Scottish fishermen after Brexit.
    Somewhat alarmingly, Lord Duncan – he of the failed Perth GE and instantly promoted to ‘Lord’ by Colonel BLIMP – appears half way through seemingly calm and reassuring… but what are the local fishermen’s leaders saying?

  320. Kangaroo says:

    Re: Voting

    In Oz we use a proportional system. So if there are ten candidates you mark them one to ten in order of your preference. The one with lowest votes gets eliminated and all their votes get redistributed to the other 9 candidates based on the selection that the voter chose next. This process continues until one candidate has more than 50% of the total votes cast.
    Result is the “preferred” candidate is elected.

    A very reasonable, straightforward and democratic system.

  321. galamcennalath says:

    stewartb says:

    Clearly campaigning to buy British things with a Union flag is ‘good’, but preferring to buy Scottish, labelled with a Saltire, is very, very ‘bad’.

    Those who adhere to British Nationalism believe in the absolute exceptionalism of their cause. It is actually unique among nationalist causes because its adherents don’t even believe it exists. How ironic is that?

    Possibly the most fervent nationalism the planet has ever known isn’t perceived as such by its followers. Really weird!

  322. auld highlander says:

    Meg M at 10.58

    The google translation came out as this.

    Confidence at a conference on fishing in Uist
    9 March 2018 Updated at Updated at

    A conference in Benbecula has heard that the voice of the fishermen is heard clearly in the talks about Brexit.

    The event was organized to discuss the potential opportunities for the business after leaving the United Kingdom of the United Kingdom.

    Murray MacLeod was in us.

  323. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Kangaroo at 11:01 pm.

    You typed,
    “Re: Voting

    In Oz we use a proportional system. So if there are ten candidates you mark them one to ten in order of your preference. The one with lowest votes gets eliminated and all their votes get redistributed to the other 9 candidates based on the selection that the voter chose next.

    That’s the system – “Single Transfereable Vote”, STV – that we use for council elections in Scotland. I like it. The only negative I saw when they introduced it was that instead of using it for each individual ward in a local authority area, they reduced the number of wards and made them 3 or 4 member wards.

    An unnecessary complication that removed ‘understanding’ of the process from your average voter. The number of wards should have remained the same, with one councillor elected by STV for each ward.

  324. Ken500 says:

    How the hell can it be a reasonable and democratic electoral process when people are voting ten times for different candidates (Parties) stuff and nonsense, Too complicate for words. Non democratic in every way. People should be voting for the candidate they favour and that is it. Not diluting their vote having to vote for halfwit unionists. The result denying the first preference.of the majority. For a unionist Alliance Party. A non existent Party no even on any voting list. Or electoral register. Suddenly appearing in power after the result. Getting double unfair chances of candidates. As to how many candidates can be presented by each Party. Not a unionist Alliance non existent Party.

    A travesty of electoral justice. Including the breach of electrol rules on illegal political donations, The lying or non existent manifestos. Just a cabel of crooks committing criminal offence with impunity. Completely braking electiral rules. Gerrymandering supposed to be punishable with prison

    No wonder the electoral process in Australia Is in such a mess and politicians are so despises. Having to resign for fraud and criminality every other week. For fraud and misrepresentation. Apart from being a Federal system. Totally different from the UK (supposed) Union with autonomous separate States. States in a federation. There is also compulsory voting. Another miscarriage of Democracy. Having to vote for total incompetent bastards everyone despised and distrusts with a vengeance, Australian politician are a laughing stock. A bunch of total criminal fraud. Just like in many places. Zoomers. The Australia electoral process is a shambles.

  325. Ken500 says:

    Australian pop 24Million. 6 States.

  326. Ken500 says:

    Brian Spanner is a zoomer best ignored, Just a wind up merchant. Another useless incompetent. No even good at offending folk. The purpose of the comments/tweets. A half wit.

  327. Famou15 says:

    It is not ALL about flags. Through hard work and diligence “Scotland the brand” was built up over the years and throughout the world it was valued as an indicator of quality. In places I have visited like USA,Singapore,South Africa,Australia etc “Scotland the brand” was valued and admired.

    In one fell swoop of Brexit fervour all that waS turned to SHIT.

    Wake up Scotland. They think you are expendable

  328. Cactus says:

    Two away frae on and over 1,500 donors!

    Ron Strathdee.
    Aileen Macfarlane.
    Iain Diamond.
    David Todd.
    Alan Thomson.
    George Duncan.
    James Wilson.
    Jim Green.
    James McCabe.
    Marie Crawford.

    And many Anonymous more…

    You are SO cool you.

    Midnight nears…

    One is HOME.


  329. Thepnr says:

    The remaining 27 EU states must approve the plans for a transition agreement at a Brussels summit on 22 March. So where are the plans?

    It doesn’t look like there are any plans yet to approve, so what chance of moving on to the next phase of actually beginning negotiations on a trade deal?

    Well from where I’m sitting it looks like zero chance. The Northern Ireland border issue will see to that, doesn’t help either that the Scottish and Welsh governments are give Westminster the two fingers over the Withdrawal Bill.

    Mays government and her merry band of Brexiteer ministers stumble from one crisis to another. Hard to make sense of any of it, I guess that is simply because there is no sense to any of it.

    Getting ready for another bag of popcorn during the coming week.

  330. Cactus says:


    She’s 00rs.



    Welcome tae ye new Anonymous.. 5 minutes ago.

  331. ben madigan says:

    @ Thepnr here are my views on the latest brexit crisis –

  332. Ken500 says:

    Whether the SNP would have no or less SNP members under D’Hondt is irrelevant. They soon had a sizeable majority because of their ability of better governance. Still continued by a vast majority. over the non existent Unionist Alliance Party. Illegally plastered all over Council representative website.

    Under FPTP they would have come through earlier and have a much higher majority presence.That is why the Unionists changed the voting system without authority. Precisely to stop the SNP (one legitimate) Party getting a majority. Ie it was not changed to be fair or representative. (It is not) It was changed to ensure the unionist cabel would always have a majority without authority or agreement if the electorate. Taking their illegal, criminal activities into the Holyrood Parliament (Councils). With impunity.

    The electoral/voters can’t get rid of the unelected 3rd rate rejects. Cluttering the Parliament (councils) of the non existent Unionist Alliance Party/BT. Not on any electoral list, non declared funding, yearly register account filed. Breaking Code of conduct of public officials. Investigation after investigation. No recognised penalties applied. No existent democracy. Financial shambles. Having to be bailed out constantly. Breaking electoral Laws with impunity, just troughing on public money smirking at the voters/electoral. Just making people more and more angry at their regurgitated rubbish denouncements. Googlegook. Stuff and nonsense. Constant lies.

  333. Thepnr says:

    @ben madigan

    Haha, yeah pretty much what you wrote.

  334. Still Positive says:

    Ben Madigan @ 12.00 Thanks for that. It shows what deep shit the UK is in.

  335. Cactus says:

    Hey main page number 1,500…

    Alex Wright.

    “Your the pump Stu, all hands to you”

    I second yours Alex 😉


  336. Ken500 says:

    Welcome back Mark McDonald

    Lang may yer lum reek. Good luck. Welcome back to the fold soon, A gentle man of high ability.

    A total disproportion witchhunt. MSM. Totally out proportion. Just needed an acknowledgement and an apology for any unintentional minor offence. Naive. Thanks for all your good work for additional needs children and families. Increasing awareness of autism matters and other issues. Hope your family with extra daily struggles is fine. Best wishes.

    The problem of those who claim the most of offensive of expletive text or e-mail are usually the ones who are also sending them.

  337. Cactus says:

    Cheers for yer tune DrunkenDee ~

    Keep posting.

  338. Ken500 says:

    The unionists voted tactically at the last Westminster election under FPTP and still ended up,with less seats than the SNP ( one party) The SNP ended up with a sizeable majority. Higher than all other combined Parties in Scotland. In the non existent supposed Unionist Alliance Party. BT. A party that does not exist. Non existent Party. With only first preference votes. Not a choice of ten candidates at each seat. A shambles of democracy. Impossible rational choice of parity.

  339. Cactus says:

    Yesterday is always a good day.

    Yer maw is yer maw.

    Love her.



  340. louis.b.argyll says:

    ..’has effectively been..’

    Isn’t the same as..


    When relating to continuation of ancient sovereignty, which, while protected by Act of Union itself, has been suppressed politically for 300 years.

  341. Cactus says:

    And tomorrow could be SO much better.

    Ludovico on ra ‘Numbers’.

    Do not you know.

  342. Cactus says:

    Whom is in whose corner…?


  343. louis.b.argyll says:

    I agree with Ken500,

    Multiple preferences turns voting into an exercise in damage limitation. For example Lib Dems can upset natural logic by deliberately losing.

    A majority of community positivity becomes a wounded isolated wedge, seemingly delicate, despite clearly winning the popular vote.

  344. geeo says:

    Just watched Tricky Dicky leonard on Sundsy Politics Scotland…

    “The SNP can never form a WM government, so you should vote labour if you want change”.

    Oh dear…in other words..

    There is no point voting in a WM election, so you may as well vote for Independence, then you WILL get the government you vote for EVERY TIME.

    CHEERS for the advice there Dicky…oh aye..there is no such thing as a uk single market ya dick (sic).

  345. louis.b.argyll says:

    The pound is as much a Scottish construct as it is an English, or British or UKish one.

    Currency isn’t an asset to be negotiated, it has no actual value until ‘compared for purpose of transferring value’, it’s a fundamental overarching flow-mechanism, nothing more.

    Money can be printed and signed off by a central bank, who assist independent governments to use the timing of activating certain mechanisms which protects their interests.

    We, Scotland, have right to use the pound or we take a tenth of everything. One in ten of everything. One in ten palaces and embassies and residencies, a tenth of the licence fee and military hardware, shares in HS2 and RBS.

    We could alternatively create a cash buffer with a rolling steering group, possibly including remnant devolved parliaments, to determine quarterly BoE voting/committee involvement, based on trust & insured to the hilt. Easy.

  346. Cactus says:

    Ken Dodd is deid.

  347. louis.b.argyll says:

    thanks for watching that awful BBC stuff, so I don’t have to, all the time.

  348. Cherry says:

    Truely worrying times.

    We need an escape route..oh wait! Vote yes, for Scotland!

  349. Kangaroo says:

    Briandoonthetoon @ 11:22pm

    Yes it seems to me to work best when there is only one elected candidate for each constituency. Judging from discussions on ScotGoesPop from time to time you have different methods for every election, council, Holyrood or WM, that seems to make it more difficult for the electorate to get their heads around. As an example Ken500 seems to have difficulty judging from his various posts.

  350. Macart says:


    Leonard said that did he? I wonder if he thought that through first?

    No. No leader of the SNP will ever be PM of the UK. But then Scotland’s population needn’t be party to, or reliant upon, Westminster government. Might be he should think about that these days. People don’t need the SNP to run the UK, only to be prepared to defend the Scottish population’s interests and of course be prepared to govern Scotland effectively.

    About now, some folk might not be far wrong in noting that the WM system of government, its practice of politics and its attitude to nation partners and friends is on a shoogly peg.

  351. Ken500 says:

    Especially comments by people from other countries/areas who have absolutely no knowledge of a situation or electoral system they are commentating or making judgements about, Butt out, Either do a little research before making comments. Stop showing ignorance. Ignorance is not excuse. It just makes comments about other people look foolish.

    There is absolutely no difficulty making judgement about a corrupt, criminal electoral system and the corrupt, criminal unionist Parties and the corrupt actions of their members, who support it. It is plain for everyone to see. The list is endless.

    Illegal wars, banking fraud, tax evasion. The Law not being upheld by Westminster unionists. Lies about the EU. (Management construction and ideals). illegally starving people. Misappropriation and squander of public money without authority. Illegal cuts to public services. Illegal cuts to NHS/Education. and essential services. Maintanence of low wages because funds are being taken out of the country and the economy. Diverted. No building of affordable homes because public money is being used to illegally bomb houses and and other countries to bit. Causing death destruction and migration.

    Westminster guilty of illegal mass murder. Making vast economic/migration problems. Worldwide. Using public funds to bomb the world, funds which should be being used to build enough house and provide higher adequate wages in the UK so people have enough to substain them and support them,especially women and children the sick and the vulnerable. No tsking account of public opinion.

    The list is endless. The appalling corruption of Brexit. Causing even more misappropriation of public money increasing unnecessary red tape. Misuse and embezzlement of public funds by unionists party members and their associates. On gotesque projects no value with no business case in order to line their own and their associates pocket. Illegal ‘D’ notices on the Press. Illegal Press control. Absolution of duty to ensure a free, fair Press. Without a free and balance Press there is no democracy. Breaking the ministerial code and lying about it.

    The list is endless.

  352. Nana says:

    Tories in Perth and Kinross Council tried to screw taxpayers
    Video here

    Theresa May’s Brexit plan to register millions of EU citizens risks descending into ‘chaos’

  353. Nana says:

    France signs deals worth $16 billion in India; to deepen defense, security ties

    Developments promoted by politicians – including former chancellor George Osborne – remain unbuilt, sparking fraud allegations

  354. Ken500 says:

    The Scottish National Party. A description of a party that operates in Scotland. More internationalist than any other uk political oarty.. It is not the Scottish Nationalist Party. The clue is in the name. It has nothing to do about nationalism. It has to do with right and wrong. To do equality, respect and justice. People’s views and equal rights being taken into consideration and respected. A proper democracy. Not trying to undermine the social structure and cohesion. Corbyn etc should put their own house in order before they start criticising other people’s houses or existence.

    If the corrupt Lablour party wants power in the rest of the UK it will have to change it’s way dramatically. Stop telling so many proven lies and stop being so useless incompetents. Change direction, Dominance in Scotland is gone. Stop living in the past. Modernism. Embrace modernity. A comparable structure of a any (future) union will have to be entirely different and truly democratic.

  355. Nana says:

    First lot of links have failed to appear. I have to to go out this morning so suggest you check back later to see if they appear.

  356. Kangaroo says:


    Just because I live in Oz doesn’t mean I know nothing about Scotland or Scottish politics. You are being extremely rude with your comments when all I am doing is making suggestions based on experience and knowledge. I note you want people like me to Butt out but you want to comment on Oz politics as your posting shows. Your posting about Oz politicians resigning shows no understanding of what happened here. So perhaps before asking others to Butt out because of assumed ignorance you should show some knowledge yourself of the circumstabces in other places before writing about it.

    I am a Scot and have a strong desire to see my country free before I die. So I will not be Butting out anytime soon.

  357. Sinky says:

    Scots Law is under threat and you can help save it.

    The Scottish legal system is at risk of disappearing and law firms being deregulated and bought by investors, warns Michael Sheridan (Scotsman 12 March).

    This month brings you a late opportunity to lend a hand to the preservation of one of the pillars of the Scottish nation, the legal system of Scotland. Developments took place in England about 14 years ago for the deregulation of legal practices permitting the sale of shares in these practices in the commercial market.

    The act of union 1707: this guaranteed the independence of the Scottish legal system and Scottish courts in all time coming. That has held for 300 years but the introduction of ABS will bring English law and the jurisdiction of English courts into Scotland.

    Impracticability of Regulation: Just how would you ever be able to regulate the conduct in Scotland of a commercial entity situated on some other part of the planet? Why hand any control of our legal services to such an entity? A previous attempt to bring ABS into Scotland in 2010 has already failed for lack of an acceptable regime of regulation.

    The Scottish Government has shown clear misgivings about this policy and has set up a review into the future regulation of legal services in Scotland. Now the Scottish public has until the end of this month to write to the Independent Review into Scottish Legal Services, GW10, St Andrew’s House, Regent Road, Edinburgh EH1 3DG to explain why Scottish legal firms should not be made saleable, in whole or in part, outwith the Scottish legal profession.

    You will find full details of the review questions and more about this sordid tale and also an email link to the Independent Review on the SLAS website at

  358. K.A.Mylchreest says:

    Meg M. @ 11 March 10.58
    Auld Highlander @ 11 March 11.10

    re :

    The written text translates :
    “Confidence apparent at a conferance about fishing in Uist
    9th March 2018
    A conference in Benbecula was told that the fishermen’s voice would be clearly heard in the discussions surrounding Brexit.
    The event was organised to consider the opportunities that might exist for the industry after Britain leaves the EU.
    Murray McLeod was there for us.”

    I wouldn’t trust myself to interpret the spoken commentary, but as far as I can follow it, it doesn’t seem to add a great deal to the summary above.

    A bheil fìor-Ghàidheal ann a seo?

  359. Robert Peffers says:

    Is Theresa’s Red Line part of the London Underground?

  360. Macart says:


    Yeah, a LOT of Brexit articles as you would expect Nana. You get the feeling that folk are waiting for that inevitable other boot to drop about now?

    Anyroads, many thanks. 🙂

  361. Ken500 says:

    It is highly likely just another disruptive. trolling,bastard is hiding behind the internet to cover up their identity based not overseas but within plain sight.Time up.

  362. Hamish100 says:

    Westminster controlling food standards will allow the US to railroad their GM food and steroid laden meat onto our tables. If Scots have control we could prevent its sale. Grubby Westminster at it again.

  363. Ken500 says:

    Australian ‘whites only policy’. For years. Racist and bigoted. Migrants left to die on concentration island, without proper food, medical attention or shetter. Aboriginal polices that were appalling. Child. Sex and abuse scandals, Not properly dealt with within the Law or International Law. Environment concerns of reef deterioration. Climate pollution. Total lack of compassion and breaking Human rights and International.

    Kettle black. Should not make comments about others and not take comments back. Put their own house in order, The Australian electiol system is a shambles. Shamed politician disliked distrusted by most of the population. A running joke. Duel nationals standing although being debarred etc. Financial scandals of fraud and misuse of public money rife. Expenses scandals. Out their own house in order first. Before critising others views. Other people have connections. Relatives etc. Exchanging views. Not a whitewash. At less there is so retribution. Laws obeyed. Deselection. Unlike in other places.

  364. Baldeagle58 says:

    Hamish100 says:

    12 March, 2018 at 8:55 am

    Westminster controlling food standards will allow the US to railroad their GM food and steroid laden meat onto our tables. If Scots have control we could prevent its sale. Grubby Westminster at it again.

    Isn’t it about time that new Scots Laws were passed by the Scottish Government protecting Scottish food production?
    It can surely be made Law that any Food / Goods produced in Scotland MUST clearly display the Saltire and the place of production. This would include goods to be sold abroad, so certain shortbread tins and whisky bottles could no longer be sold with the butcher’s apron on them?
    This would solve the ‘Union Jackery’ question immediately as producers would be breaking Scots Law if they did otherwise.
    In the same way, could the Scottish Government call for a moratorium banning foods that do not currently reach the EU Safety Standards in Scotland?
    Would that not stop chlorinated chickens, GM crops etc being forced onto Scottish consumers by any Westminster trade deals with the US?

  365. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says

    ‘No deal’ Brexit could cost UK, EU companies a reported £58b

    “British exporters to the EU will have to pay £27 billion a year.”

    That will be twice the current membership contributions to the EU.

    More than anything else I have seen, that puts the utter stupidity of a no deal Brexit in perspective.

    I assume there will also be tariffs to be paid by UK exporters to the many countries the EU has free trade agreements.

    So what will a hard Brexit be like?

    It’s beginning to look like the 2008 financial crisis, the early 1990s recession and social discontent, Thatcher’s 1980s de-industrialisation, and the shock of 1970s rising energy prices all happening at once!

  366. Ken500 says:

    Surely the Scottish Gov coukd go to Law to protect the Scottish legal system. The question iof ownership does not prevent still the only legal practice in Scotland is the established Law system. Established by the (UK) Act of Union conditions. It is based in Law under the whole separate education system. Guaranteed Under terms of the Act of Union. Non solicited, practising partners, sleeping partners. Share owners. Can’t see it ever taking off because of the different training established practices. Different Law base. Roman and Latin. Separate systems.

    Guarantee the Scottish legal professional body will not allow that to happen. Threaten their incomes and the profession bodies code of conduct. That is totally guarded religiously binding within the Law. Like most orifesdional bodies. Send off correspondence anyway, the whole UK legal system would collapse. What theybweave when theybattempt to deceive. Tying themselves in knots. No wonder the rest of the UK economy is in such a mess.

  367. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Ben Madigan 12.00:

    Your question: “Is the UK government really exposing GB to the disaster of a no deal Brexit because Mrs May will not sign up to something she agreed to in December?” encapsulates the whole dishonest, chaotic, Tory mess of Brexit.

    I was thinking of the silence of our wonderful MSM on Ireland and Brexit while stirring my porridge and listening to Pravdasound4 this morning.

    Hot topic being probed by that incisive bulldog John Humphrys:
    Cornish or Devon cream teas? Jam above or below the cream? How do you pronounce “scone”?

    Expect a day or two of wall-to-wall coverage of death of “National Treasure” English comedian. He liked a Butcher’s Apron too so double whammy.

    It also occurred to me that not a single journo has said to Foster or any other DUP politician, “Why should we listen to you when 56% of people in NI voted Remain?”

    This statistic is so rarely mentioned and stressed by the MSM that I had to check the exact figure myself.

  368. roddy anderson says:

    Who is it supposed to be that Roothie’s attending in the corner?

  369. galamcennalath says:

    roddy anderson says:

    Who is it supposed to be that Roothie’s attending in the corner?

    John Bull, the nationalistic personification of England and therefore Westminster etc.. Oor Hamish’s arch-adversary.

  370. louis.b.argyll says:

    Baldeagle58, I’d say that the laws already exist.

    Once their is a known risk to health, or an actual threat to existing standards in environmental and animal welfare, then the Scottish Government can pull rank, on our behalf. At local authority level if need be.

    Thing is, if we’re independent we can offset the costs of banning cheap (US) imports, by using negotiations, by protecting, creating jobs in premium quality (EU bound) produce.

    Protectionism is fine, logical, when it’s about natural geographical efficiencies.

    It’s not fine when it claims to be protecting jobs, by (cough) maintaining existing profit.

  371. galamcennalath says:

    Tinto Chiel says:

    the silence of our wonderful MSM on Ireland and Brexit

    Indeed, the silence has been deafening all weekend.

    It’s as if the loyal MSM are frightened to say anything in case they say the wrong thing. Perhaps they are awaiting a directive from on high!

    It all went quiet when the EU said there would be no progress until the UK put their proposals for Ireland on the table. Since there are no imminent proposals, the entire process has ground to a halt. And that would appear to be serious at this very late stage!

  372. Breeks says:

    Brexit? What Brexit?

    London property prices down 15% in 12 months…

    UK this year has the worst growth in GDP in the G7.

    Inflation is beginning to creep up, now at it’s highest since 2013 with pressures on inflation set to grow.

    Wage growth already is not keeping up with inflation, and is set to fall into negative growth resembling 2013. (For 2013, think Credit Crunch).

    Mortgage lending is in steep decline.

    Crops last Summer rotted in the fields with nobody to pick them.

    Nursing recruitment from the EU is down 96% and NHS hospitals in England are screaming for staff and cancelling operations.

    Bars, restaurants and hospitality cannot recruit staff.

    Investment banks in London’s financial sector have already announced plans to relocate jobs from London to Frankfurt, Dublin, and Warsaw.

    Jobs have also been cut at Vauxhall, 450 last October, another 250 in January, and Jaguar Land Rover is planning to curb production. Depending on Brexit, Nissan may “adjust” its business jeopardising 7,000 jobs at Sunderland.

    Sainsbury’s cutting jobs.
    Tesco cutting jobs.
    Asda cutting jobs.
    Centrica cutting jobs and issuing profit warnings.
    BAE cutting jobs.
    Vodaphone cutting jobs.

    BHS bust.
    Carillion bust.

    Maplins into administration. Toys-R-Us into administration. Carpetright, Mothercare, and Laura Ashley have all put out profit warnings.

    Brexit? What Brexit? Brexit doesn’t happen for another year yet.

  373. louis.b.argyll says:

    How could we allow our uncaring ‘partner’ England and it’s Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties, to take us to the brink, against our better risk all for so few..

    ..and not LEARN SOMETHING about how to secure a better future?

  374. Iain mhor says:

    @Sinky 7:53am

    I’d imagine peoples initial reaction would be ‘surely the legal profession are best placed to fight their own corner on this’

    There is the crux. There is no legal entity or court anywhere in Great Britain which can legislate against the Parliament of Great Britain. No legal redress whatsoever.
    All the legal profession can do is offer an opinion or judgement on an existing Act. It cannot amend it in any way. Nor compel Parliament to be somehow ‘punished’ for an adjudged breaching of an Act.
    The Parliament of Great Britain can and has amended any Act it cares to (including if it wants ex post facto) up to and including the Acts of Union.
    Yes it’s been done a few times eg: Universities (Scotland) Act 1853 (repealed)
    It does not matter one whit if any judicial body finds against the “Parliament” on a point of law over an existing act. The offending parts will be amended or superceded by a new Act to ensure “Parliament” is not in error. Doing it ex post facto (retrospectively) means they were not in breach or error before the case was adjudicated.
    Yes really.

    Which is why all of such things, all issues surrounding powers, constitutions and sovereignty are political and can only have a political solution.
    The power of parliaments and politicians is vested in them, by definition, via the polis – the people. Hence the appeal to people to assist the legal profession – which cannot be in any form other than for the people to assist politically.

    As for eg Holyrood the same principle applies. It is not equivalent to Westminster. It is a creation of an Act of the Parliament of Great Britain which passed into Law (was enacted) therefore it’s actions can be scrutinised under Law.
    As is being done. If it is judged to be acting within the law then any Acts Holyrood passes subsequently have the highest protection under Law.
    However, referring to earlier – it merely takes the Parliament of Great Britain to amend or rescind the Act which conferred Holyrood’s powers and hey presto – it is acting unlawfully. Hell even be found acting unlawfully since inception if they ex post facto it.

    I trust this is eventually sinking in, horrific though it appears. Courts and law are for the governance of the people. It does not apply to the Parliament of Great Britain – there is no hope there. Parliaments are given power by the people. That is where ultimate redress lies.

  375. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Nana @ 07:26,

    Very interesting, that article “Late to the party”:

    One of the most remarkable things about the Brexit debate (and there is very stiff competition) is the relative quiescence of commerce and industry

    Yes, well observed, that. It’s not just the MSM who are ducking their responsibilities here.

    Remember all the guff that big business deluged us with in 2014, egged on by Dodgy Dave Cameron, without any shred of modesty, honesty or realism? Yet now with Brexit it’s the complete opposite, a glum silence while they get on secretly with their contingency plans to move a big chunk of their operations over to the Continent where they can continue with “business as usual”, leaving us to sink into the Tory Grimpen Mire.

    This whole damn UK is sleepwalking into disaster. Dead man walking.

  376. Baldeagle58 says:

    louis.b.argyll says:

    12 March, 2018 at 9:51 am

    Baldeagle58, I’d say that the laws already exist.

    Once their is a known risk to health, or an actual threat to existing standards in environmental and animal welfare, then the Scottish Government can pull rank, on our behalf. At local authority level if need be.

    Louis, that might be fine for threats from future trade deals, but there doesn’t seem to be anything in Scots Law to protect ‘Scotland the Brand’ against the continuing ‘Union Jackery’ that’s going on.
    We need something enshrined in Scots Law to prevent it from happening in the first place and we would then need to come down hard on companies that didn’t use the Saltire brand on Scottish goods/produce.

  377. Fred says:

    Ruth Davidson now in panic-mode as she recruits her former adversary Gove on the side on NE fishermen who she promised the moon & can now expect to be sold down the river. Gove wasn’t invited to the Scottish Tory Conference but strange things happen at sea!

    Speaking of fishermen, Northern Ireland doesn’t appear to have much in the way of fishing-grounds of its own. Just sayin!

  378. Rock says:


    “The unionists voted tactically at the last Westminster election under FPTP and still ended up,with less seats than the SNP ( one party) The SNP ended up with a sizeable majority. Higher than all other combined Parties in Scotland.”

    The SNP lost 23 seats out of 56.

    If we have your beloved “first-past-the-post” next time, the unionists will make sure that the SNP is almost wiped out of the Scottish parliament.

    In how many seats does the SNP have more than 50% support?

    Proportional representation is a fair and democratic system which gives a party roughly the number of MSPs it deserves.

    Hardly any other EU member has a Westminster style “first-past-the-post” system.

  379. Chick McGregor says:

    ‘Speaking of fishermen, Northern Ireland doesn’t appear to have much in the way of fishing-grounds of its own. Just sayin!’

    No, but what they have was thoroughly explored for oil and gas pre indyref1, despite any such developments which ensued being just as much a hazard to the nuclear subs as the West Coast of Scotland.

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