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How politics works

Posted on October 16, 2015 by

policescotlandtories2a

(Times story here, Tory manifesto here.)

We thought we’d check for the Tories’ current position, in their 2015 manifesto:

policescotlandtories3

Seems they always “voiced concerns” about this “controversial” policy. How odd.

(The bill was so controversial, in fact, that it was passed by 101 votes to 6 – see page 1588 here. The Conservatives, having campaigned on the policy, abstained.)

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    1. 31 07 19 10:04

      Send in the Clowns | A Wilderness of Peace

    126 to “How politics works”

    1. ClanDonald says:

      I posted this on a previous thread but it’s worth repeating:

      Labour also proposed a centralised police force in their 2011 Scottish manifesto. If elected they promised to:

      “Deliver better services and cost efficiencies through the creation of a single police force and a single fire service for Scotland.” (Page 47)

      http://www.comparetheparties.co.uk/manifestos/2011LBmanifesto.pdf

    2. galamcennalath says:

      A sensible person, or organisation, must be willing to change their minds when circumstances alter and new information has become available.

      That is NOT what is happening here with this Tory policy u-turn. They have completely changed their stance simply to give another excuse to chant the mantra SNPbaaad. Pathetic politicking.

      We are truly blessed to have such poor opposition Unionist parties at this crucial time in Scotland’s history.

    3. frogesque says:

      Don’t you just lurve the airbrush and revionisim. Not so easy to airbrush the internet though is it?

      Of course there are problems within Police Scotland. Most of them relate to individuals or local police stations (Kirkcaldy anyone?) rather than the unitary organisation.

      Wouldn’t it be better if the Scot Cons and Onions got in touch with their pal Osbourne and stopped charging VAT on our Police Force.

    4. Big Jock says:

      Yougov (Scotland)

      Holyrood voting intention

      Men (Women)

      SNP 52% (50%)
      Conservatives 20% (18%)
      Labour 18% (25%)
      LibDems 5% (4%)

    5. Geoff Huijer says:

      Classic hypocrisy.

      Also seems like the Tories are okay with armed police when it suits them; like ‘guarding’ their own Conference from the general public.

    6. Wulls says:

      Stu… Any chance of checking back on the labour and lib dems manifestos ????
      I’m pretty sure everyone was on board with one police force untill the nasty SNP actually did it.
      The lib dem candidate in Gordon stated he was for supporting local policing at a hustings.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      Some poor printing company will get the blame for the critical ommission of the last line on their manifesto,which unfortunately went unnoticed at the time
      Aye right.

    8. Macart says:

      In other words, Conservatives are two faced, hypocritical charlatans.

      Who knew? 🙂

    9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Stu… Any chance of checking back on the labour and lib dems manifestos ?”

      AM I THE ONLY PERSON AROUND HERE WHO CAN TYPE “scottish liberal democrat manifesto 2011” INTO GOOGLE OR SOMETHING?

      They opposed it: http://comparetheparties.co.uk/manifestos/2011LDmanifesto.pdf

    10. One_Scot says:

      It is now pretty much the trade mark USP with unionists, they will say what every crap it takes, and surprisingly there are still some people stupid enough to fall for it. A classic example being the Independence referendum last year.

      Hopefully, God willing, we will be less stupid next time.

    11. ClanDonald says:

      @ Wulls: see above for Labour support. I’m fairly sure the Lib Dems didn’t support the single force, this will be why the BBC always wheels out Wee Willie Rennie whenever they’ve managed to hype up some Police Scotland Bad non-story and they need someone to slag off the SNP.

    12. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T (Apologies Rev – waited until there were a few posts before going O/T)

      BBC Radio Two (Jeremy Vine Show) will be analysing the SNP’s record in Government. Show stars at 12:00 this afternoon.

    13. mr thms says:

      Have the Tories voiced concern about what happens in their own backyard?

      The move to single force control rooms is also occurring in England and Wales.

      In December last year it was reported that over one million people abandoned their calls to the non-emergency 101 number..

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2862020/More-million-people-abandoned-calls-non-emergency-101-police-number-waiting-hour-getting-cut-off.html

      Vodafone has the Home Office contract for the provision of the 101 service. Last November a technical fault shut down the 101 service, and others services.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2845212/Police-non-emergency-101-number-NHS-24-hour-111-helpline-UK-technical-problem.html

    14. heedtracker says:

      Another tory fraud on Scotland but are they thinking more now, or just same ol shite.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/15/modern-politicians-better-spin-miners-strike-margaret-thatcher

      Tory boy shall spake onto tory boy, spin better everyone, that’s the way to defeat vile separatists.

      Toryboys destroyed UK heavy industry but its ok because

      “The whole world really recognises that it had to happen and even in these places it’s recognised that it had to happen, but [Thatcher is] not going to get the credit for it.”

      “Is that because she did not demonstrate sufficient sympathy?” asked Osborne.”

    15. call me dave says:

      Another unionist lie exposed already this morning (again).

      The ‘wobbly police Scotland plaything’ which pops up every second day in the MSM is knocked down repeatedly…but it will be back again grinning in the papers and on the BBC tomorrow never fear.

      As will the Scottish NHS and the FE sector. 🙁

      You wonder if some Scots ever look South to see what things are like there! Much worse in many areas.

      Remember it 2 X SNP at the next election.

    16. blackhack says:

      O/T Professor Pish is on BBC Scotlandshire radio peddling his already debunked (By Wings) pish again….Note to self..Must not listen to this radio station…..

    17. call me dave says:

      Any interested conference watchers?

      Discussing police statistics at the moment. Some good stuff there who knew…it’s not in the papers or on the BBC.

      Now Health service..

      http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSnp/live

    18. Laverock says:

      Scared of hammers… But professor pish is on radio Scotland just now debating with ruth Wishart and Johann Lamont (and others not sure of)

      Just got neatly slapped down by Ruth but still spouting pish regardless

    19. Jim Mitchell says:

      Of course it’s odd, it’s the Tories!

    20. heedtracker says:

      Red tory Graun boost blue tory FT, shock. Maybe there’s a parallel universe where reality gets reported and discussed in newspapers-

      “A comprehensive account of the SNP’s record in government will to wait for another day, I’m afraid, but if you are looking for the case for the prosecution, here is some useful material.

      The best single article is probably this one, written by the FT’s John McDermott in Prospect over the summer about the SNP’s record. It was even praised publicly by Tony Blair. Here’s McDermott’s conclusion.

      Over the past decade, the SNP has proven itself to be the most successful political party in Europe. It has won seemingly impossible majorities in Holyrood and of Scottish seats at Westminster. Scotland is now a democratic one party state. And from next April, it will be by some measures the most powerful devolved country in the world. Yet if politics is about power then policy is what you do with power. And the SNP has done very little indeed, especially for the poorest Scots it now claims to represent.”

      Praised publicly by Tony Blair, even.

      Why hasn’t Nic Sturgeon fixed 70+ years o Slabour reign over their Scotland region, back when Scotland wasn’t a one party state ruled by red tory SLab, for ever and ever, who were so great, they’ll be back soon with a UKOK vengeance, just don’t call them the red tories.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      I understand that certain sections of society have been known to apply the term pigs to the constabulary. This must have caused some confusion in Tory ranks 😉

    22. Ruby says:

      blackhack: I tuned into ‘Radio Pish’ listened to 20 secs of ‘Mrs Pish’ and switched off. I might tune in again later when there is a fast forward facility.

      I’ll do the same with Jeremy Vine.

    23. ahundredthidiot says:

      O/T and unafraid of hammers

      State propaganda show (The BBC) has likeable Norman ask NS a series of Scottish questions in a quite clear and pathetic attempt at embarrassing her.

      Nic done well, but should’ve finished on…..

      ‘….and I know what the magnafuckincarta is!!’

    24. Lollysmum says:

      O/T
      Hey Stuart you got a mention from the stage at conference this morning. Can’t remember which speaker but it was quite early on 🙂

    25. Ruby says:

      Having listened to only 20 secs of Mrs Pish spouting pish on Radio Pish I was reminded of what a really excellent job Wings does for us.

      Iain Murray on Jeremy Vine as I type.

    26. Big Jock says:

      Professor Tory Tomkins blows withe the wind. He once believed in a Scottish republic, now believes in a British republic yet he is a Tory…go figure:

      Will the real slim shady..please stand up!

      https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/scotland/2004/10/298867.html

    27. Jimbo says:

      Total hypocrisy. This is the kind of politics that Scotland’s people have come to despise.

      It is because of this kind of politicking that the Unionist parties are dying on their feet. Long may they remain in blissful ignorance to the reasons why they are being rejected by the voters.

    28. Ruby says:

      Does the BBC offer a written transcript of their programmes?

      If only I had kept up my shorthand skills I could write down everything being said on Jeremy Vine & Radio Scotland.

      I wonder what ‘pro’ journalist do? Do they use voice recognition software like Dragon?

    29. shug says:

      Showing this here’s fine but every time I switch on the tv or radio police Scotland is in trouble is the headline and so it will continue
      People believe what they are told often enough

    30. Danny says:

      Interesting that Willie Rennie hasn’t been jumping up and down about the allegation that one of the officers in Fife was racist. Then I checked the dates he had been accused and it was 2003 and 2005 so obviously Willie Rennie wouldn’t want to smear his own party.

    31. Dr Jim says:

      Why is Nicola Sturgeon not patrolling our streets keeping us safe (unarmed)
      Where is the First Ministers medical bag so she can attend personally to any emergency
      Nicola Sturgeon turns up to many schools but never gets down to conducting any lessons

      These are the important issues that must be addressed
      I am shocked and appalled at her dereliction of duty
      Far too much time spent on Building Bridges,Hospitals,Roads,Houses,Railways,Schools,Mitigating Bedroom Tax,Funding Childcare, going on trade missions

      The SNPs record in government is totally unacceptable

    32. Ealasaid says:

      Yesterday morning R4 said before 7am that Nicola Sturgeon was going to announce at in her speech at conference that there would be no second independence referendum.

      According to comments in the last thread CorpseMedia continued to claim that she had said this throughout the day.

      They are really pushing lies about the reasons why they think people vote SNP. Desperately trying to destroy the SNP majority. Be sure to counter such claims to those that do not use social media.

    33. dakk says:

      Dr Jim

      ‘where is the First Minister’s medical bag ?’

      Ye,I can’t imagine most people expect any government to micro manage NHS or other public services.

      However,where the SNP differ from the British/Unionist parties is that they have at least got a vision for Scotland and want to take more responsibility for fulfilling that vision.

      Whereas the Scottish branches of the British parties don’t want to take responsibility for Scotland,but just do as they’re told and be dependent on London governance.They are bone idle with no vision other than of themselves sitting in the House of Lords.

    34. Iain More says:

      Well I am pleased to see that the SNP members who attended the conference in Aberdeen have seen fit to declare that the SNP/SG Land Reform Bill doesn’t go far enough.

      So what has happened about Fracking as I couldn’t make head nor tail of the gibberish being put out by the Brit Nat Press and Media about that debate.

    35. ArtyHetty says:

      DrJim@1.27pm

      Absolutely. The SNP policies are totally unacceptable to the red n blue tories agenda to keep the people in their place, obeying all orders, hating the poor and accepting the (immoral)austerity tactics.

      The message that the corpmedia is in control has to reach the unenlightened and soon.

    36. I wonder if unionist politicians are simply thick or are just pretend to be?

      Don’t they realise that when the money the Scottish Government receives from Westminster is being cut, that means it has less money to spend.

      That impacts on the funding of public services and the way they are being delivered.

      Of course its been very easy for the unionists from the position of opposition to criticise the Scottish Government.

      But as these unionists appear to have all the answers, Maybe its about time they explained to the public what they would do differently to provide better funding and improved delivery of these services with less money available to them!

    37. orri says:

      Once upon a time there was a call for more bobbies on the beat in order to reduce the amount of crime. If that succeeds then it makes sense that the crimes left to will more than likely be the ones that are harder to solve.

      Perhaps the question should be: would you rather your house wasn’t burgled in the first place or that we spent more manpower trying to find those responsible afterwards?

    38. Iain More says:

      Listened uncomprehending to two white settlers moaning about the treatment they were getting on the NHS Scotland at my local surgery. That was this morning.

      They then moaned about how they got Private Health Cover through their respective jobs. At that point my GP was running 40 minutes late for various good reasons and those moaning Twa faced gits were ahead of me in the line.

      By the time he had seen them, the GP was running over 1 hour late. I bit my lip rather than say what I thought of them both.

    39. Thepnr says:

      @Ealasaid

      Nicola in her own words:

      “Over the next few years, as the Tories impose even deeper cuts, press ahead with Trident renewal and fail to honour in full the vow of more powers for our Parliament, I think support for independence will continue to rise.

      “So let me also be clear about this. If there is strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country, then we have no right to rule out a referendum and we won’t do that either.

      “No one has the right to stand in the way of democracy.”

      She has been consistent in that “the people will choose”. We aught not be surprised that the state and their Corporate Media friends will continue to lie and bend the truth.

      A stratagy that is doomed to failure if we do as you suggest and continually counter such claims. There are those even here on Wings peddling such crap, give them short shrift.

    40. Les Wilson says:

      dakk says:

      “They are bone idle with no vision other than of themselves sitting in the House of Lords.”

      Yes they have a vision,that is true, their trouble is WE interfer with it.

    41. scotsbob says:

      As an avid reader of the satirical magazine Private Eye for over 40 years I have noticed that at every election they ask their readers to send in local election leaflets from the various parties.

      This allows the magazine the ability to refer back to past policies and manifestos, e.g. Labour and Tory promising to dual the A9 at every election from 1979 onwards.

      I am delighted to see that Stu has access to a vast array of such material. This is what we need to keep the Unionist parties accountable. Let’s make the graphic at the top of this page appear on other forums on the Internet when the SNP bad brigade start trolling.

    42. heedtracker says:

      On this great day of UKOK democracy, as Lady Mone of Mayfair and fantastic British knockers, finally takes her job for life at the House of Lords, BetterTogether Slovenia says UKOK speaks onto the too small, poor, stupid, sweaties, and it’s already made me splurt tea all my ipad-

      Prof. Adam Tomkins ?@ProfessorPish 44m44 minutes ago
      I’m on Radio Scotland’s @bbcbigdebate at 12pm today. Still foggy at Pacific Quay. Hope that’s not an omen. SNP BAD.

    43. Luigi says:

      heedtracker says:

      16 October, 2015 at 2:33 pm
      Still foggy at Pacific Quay. Hope that’s not an omen.

      A dark cloud hangs over BBC Labour HQ.

      By the way, it’s an absolutely beautiful, sunny day up here in Aberdeen. 🙂

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      The SNP conference seems to be going well and I was delighted to see the membership pushing on land reform.

      It certainly seems to be getting a lot more coverage than before. Indeed the press and TV seem to be pouring over every word no doubt in hope of a slip up or disagreement.

      However, by dint of coverage (and can anybody remember anything about the Labour conference) there will be a reinforcement of the view that the SNP is the party that represents Scotland.

      Thinking of the Tory Party conference the thing that sticks out most was May’s scary anti-immigrant anti-everyone speech.

    45. Big Jock says:

      The reason the unionist parties dont like the SNP. Is because they say the SNP are a populist party.

      How dare the SNP reflect the dreams and ambitions of the people that elected them…What has the world come to!

      I mean giving the people things they like. That will never catch on.

    46. liz says:

      @HandandShrimp What stood out most for me at the Tory conference, was them hiding behind a giant steel fence to keep them ‘safe’ from the electorate.

      Well that and the snipers on the roof.

    47. JayR says:

      See Adam Tomkins has deleted the various funny yet critical replies to his tweet about being on the BBC Big Debate. I’ve noticed he deletes all the non-fawning and ass-kissing comments on his blog too. No criticism is tolerated! Sort of strict censorship you’d expect from a dictator in a one party state hahahaha

    48. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ealasaid
      I read the Record waiting to get my hair cut (it’s a tradition), and their article says Sturgeon said:

      “So let me also be clear about this. If there is strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country, then we have no right to rule out a referendum and we won’t do that either.”

      and online in the Record another article: “Torcuil Crichton: Nicola Sturgeon lets slip biggest hint yet that a second referendum is on the cards”

      Ironically the Record is doing a good job of helping to keep the SNP united, so us Indy nuts can stay onside, and the SNP can concentrate on the Holyrood elections. Bravo!

    49. orri says:

      If Torquil thinks that to be the case then surely he’s conceding that there’s an unstoppable move towards an independent Scotland or at least a second referendum where at the onset Yes has an overwhelming lead.

    50. Big Jock says:

      I have always thought that there were three things that needed to happen for Scotland to get to independence. One was a Holyrood majority = Done ,a Westminster Majority = Done. Control of all or most of Scotland’s councils = 2016.

      It’s the final piece to end the symbols of unionism.

    51. call me dave says:

      Good stuff from Swinney at the conference. He used the plumbing analogy in reference to the new financial powers to come which was rather good.

      Among other references he says “it’s not to be a drain on the Scottish people” if it is then “no deal” he says! 🙂

      2 X SNP next election.

      PS:
      I see Strugeon getting a bit of flak on the BBC(surprise quiz) for knowing all the ‘Broons’ but only one of the ‘Lisbon Lions’…but she put them right on the first Bond film Doc NO but was told it was Thunderball….ZZZZZZZZ!!

    52. Big Jock says:

      To be fair Nicola was only born in 1971. Lisbon lions was 67. I would struggle to name 3!

    53. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Big Jock

      “Control of all or most of Scotland’s councils = 2016.”

      Holyrood elections in 2016.

      Scottish council elections in 2017, BJ.

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      Poor Rev, he goes to all the trouble of looking out the FACTS (as always) and hardly anyone comments. But then there’s not much to say I guess, except all the complaints from Labour and Conservatives about “Single Police Force” are a lot of dishonest political hot air – as usual, because they were for it themselves.

      Lib Dems come out clean, I still think it’s a shame for them they sold out to the Tories for the sake of a bit of power, they should have been content with Liberal values which were widely respected, even if people didn’t vote for them as much as they would have liked. As it is they got the likes of Danny Alexander and Alistair Carmichael, not to mention the Clegg. And some guy in Holyrood whose political satnav seems to be stuck in Westminster. Though in fairness, he might be changing for the better with his “LibDems get a free vote next Referendum”. At least he is on target with his scrutiny of the police, the Libs were always on top of that issue, and personal freedom.

    55. heedtracker says:

      Luigi says:
      16 October, 2015 at 2:42 pm
      heedtracker says:

      For minute I thought Jezzy my gorgeous pouting BetterTogether Slovene girlfriend had developed a sense of humour, but no:D

    56. Big Jock says:

      Correct Proud – I was jumping the gun!

    57. Alastair Ewen says:

      Simpson, Craig, Gemmell, Murdoch, McNeil, Clark, Johnstone, Wallace, Chalmers, Auld, Lennox.

      ..and I’m a Dons fan!

    58. heedtracker says:

      The list of Prof. Adam Tonkinski’s new twitter account is really really funny, its like all 60 odd UKOK zoomers are so utterly desperate for an even bigger one to lead then to the promised land of teamGBness.

      Jack McConnellVerified account @LordMcConnell
      Member, UK House of Lords. Campaigning against global poverty, conflict and bigotry. Enjoying music and sharing knowledge. First Minister of Scotland 2001-2007.

      Neil Lovatt (1845) @neiledwardlovat
      Investment & protection products, trying to declutter the industry one product at a time. Work for Scottish Friendly all tweets are in a personal capacity.

      Kenny FarquharsonVerified account @KennyFarq
      Columnist and senior writer with @TheTimes in Scotland. I’ve been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king.

      Effie Deans @Effiedeans
      Pro UK Scottish blogger. You can find all my posts by following link below.

      Even Big Bliar’s jumped in

      Blair McDougallVerified account @blairmcdougall
      Labour campaigner. Ran No campaign to keep UK together in #indyref. Set up @M4COnline. Slowly writing book on Keir Hardie. All views personal, etc.

      Are red and blue tories that stupid?

      Yes.

      Also, Prof Tomkinski’s master plan is to get to Holyrood, bash away for toryboy world couple of Holyrood terms, get made up to the Lords for that land of unelected UKOK troughing and glory next to likes of Lady Mone of Mayfair.

      You didn’t hear that from me right.

      Also Lady Mone of Mayfair’s chauffeur is called Parker, hopefully and whether he likes it or not.

    59. orri says:

      Is there a difference between a Professor of Constituional Law, as Tomkins claims to be and Professor of Public Law as his employer thinks he is?

      http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/law/staff/adamtomkins/#/researchinterests,biography

      Fortunately there seems to be no such thing as a Professor of Constitutional Law at Glasgow University.

      http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/law/staff/

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      That Sturgeon quiz “spluttering” covered in the Herald because it’s such a major major breaking news worldwide implications news story with interplanetary, nay, interstellar interest throughout the Empire (Strikes Back):

      “She badly underestimated the £1.30 cover price of the Scotsman newspaper – explaining that she read it online and declaring that her guess of 45p was what “it should be”. “

      And the Herald don’t even have the brains to realise she was taking the p.

    61. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Orri

      I notice from the list of Law staff at Glasgow Uni. that Roddy Hart’s name is missing. Guess he must be touring the world now with his band, Lonesome Fire.

    62. AndyH says:

      Sensi was great and you kick Unionist arse too.

      Well done!

    63. Quakeawake says:

      @Iain More 2.06pm
      Craig Murray’s blog gives his take on the fracking debate here https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ second one down. It’s not very complimentary of the SNP but that seems fair enough, from what he says, which is basically that the leadership over-managed the debate.

      But then the opposite seems to have happened on land reform.

      Conclusion: The SNP is a large organisation now and as such can be a bit clunky at times but it’s still managing to make all the right decisions for the non-elite of Scotland’s people. That, in itself, is some achievement.

    64. Truth says:

      That’ll be one of the reasons David Cameron arranged for all past Tory speeches etc to be deleted from the internet.

      Nobody likes a hypocrite, so they make it harder for us to expose them.

    65. galamcennalath says:

      For the next five years we have Cameron and his mates to deal with. Perhaps we will be shot of them before that period ends.

      Here’s a sobering thought, in approximately 1380 years the inhabitants of the KIC 8462852 system are going to receive our first radio transmissions. And in around 1467 years they will get a glimpse of WoS .

      Bet they are impressed compared to the Corp Media pish. 🙂

    66. Ken500 says:

      Will Tomkins be giving up the academic ‘career’ and salary to go into politics. Will it be a stepping stone to Westminster or ermine.

    67. Brian Powell says:

      I’ve come to the conclusion that the Unionist commentariat, in it’s various forms, is having severe difficulties dealing with the fact that it has become largely irrelevant, leading to extreme shrillness and frothing.

    68. heedtracker says:

      Will Tomkins be giving up the academic ‘career’ and salary to go into politics. Will it be a stepping stone to Westminster or ermine.

      Stand up comedy more like, him and JK Rowling. The English Krankies, fandabydosie Adam or whatever JK stands for, Jeff, Jesus, Jack, Jim etc

    69. Valerie says:

      @heedtracker 4.33

      The mad Professor s friends aren’t in the least bit pretentious!

    70. galamcennalath says:

      The media have an astonishing ability to get carried away with a story, all feeding plagaristically off one another. We take it personal when it involves Scotland and our Indy cause. Truth is, they do it with everything, spinning stories from little info.

      I’ve been watching the unfolding story about the unknown aircraft being shot down by the Turks. Sheesh, it a little drone with a camera. I’m no expert, but it looks like something you would buy from Maplin! It almost certainly is a Russian made Orlan 10.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Conflicts/status/654988706848313344

      http://en.ruvsa.com/catalog/orlan_10/

    71. call me dave says:

      @galamcennalath

      Good comment … I never checked the maths

      Looks like TATA kissing bye-bye to the two remaining steelworks in Scotland. 🙁

      Worried about Scotland? Do you…

      Vote labour!
      Vote SNP!
      Vote to take an Anadin Plus!

    72. heedtracker says:

      The mad Professor s friends aren’t in the least bit pretentious!

      Watch it! That’s my girlfriend youre talking about. You dont want to get into it with Slovene girlfriends. She’s gone a bit quiet lately but her last rancid The Graun CiF’s were a bit odd

      ” In response to newbag
      The idiots are giving weapons to the terrorists

      Here is a post from the comments section of SLOVENIA’s national broadcaster a few days ago (9 October 2015) under article entitled Did Russian missiles land in Iran or is this only ‘psychological warfare’? (my rough translation of the posts from Slovene to English):”

      Its odd because of her usual Professorial standard of perfect Slovene to English Cif translation, suddenly falls to rough translation.

      You cant beat a bit of BetterTogether bullshit on CiF.

    73. Iain More says:

      Well the Tata announcement comes out to coincide with the SNP conference, those Union Divvies just keep coming and coming and coming.

      On the Police, the Brit Nat end game as far as I concerned is the eventual total privatisation of it and thus make it am institution that is under London’s control 100% of the time by proxy through their friends in low places.

      I have no doubt the Tory hidden agenda is ultimately to have one single Greater Britannia Paramilitary Police Force.

    74. Capella says:

      @ Iain More
      re fracking. The delegates voted on whether to “remit” the resolution i.e. send it back to make it stronger, or to accept the resolution. The resolution simply accepts the status quo which is a 2 year moratorium on fracking and unconventional gas until scientific evidence is reviewed and public consulted.

      The “remitters” wanted a complete ban and argued very well on that point. However they lost the argument.
      Vote was approx 540 – 430 against remitting back. So original proposal carried.

      You can watch it on youtube.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYcqj93rKo

      Mhairi Black, Alex Salmond and John Finney were all great this afternoon.

    75. Capella says:

      Oops – John Swinney!

    76. peekay says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says;

      AM I THE ONLY PERSON AROUND HERE WHO CAN TYPE “scottish liberal democrat manifesto 2011? INTO GOOGLE OR SOMETHING?

      Probably not, but you’re also the only one around here that gets fucking paid to do it

    77. call me dave says:

      @peekay

      Och man! Too early to light the blue touch paper.. 🙂

      On his team’s footie night too!

    78. gerry parker says:

      pk, NUTS.

      Stu doesn’t get paid to do anything, he gets paid to be something.

    79. Midgehunter says:

      Peekay, I think you could be pushing your luck there with that sentence.

    80. Bob Mack says:

      @peekay,
      What was asked for is linked underneath.,so give Rev a break.

    81. Lollysmum says:

      Peekay
      Don’t be so bone idle. Stu doesn’t get paid minimum wage(his choice-we’ve all told him to take a wage rise)to be your servant.

      His job is to run Wings & to analyse Scottish political news. That does not include pandering to people too lazy to do a simple search themselves.

    82. K1 says:

      Seriously Peekay? Who made you the jumped up little nyaff telling the owner of this site what he’s ‘paid’ for?

      I don’t pay the Rev to ‘do’ anything, I contribute to crowd funding this site because the person who owns and runs it provides a service that I personally am grateful for. He produces well informed and forensically researched, accurate journalism to a standard that the other so called journalists that currently occupy that profession, can only fantasise about.

      He’s not here to look up Google cause some nitwit can’t fuckin’ be bothered to do that for themselves.

      Condescending nutfuck.

    83. Michael McCabe says:

      peekay. BOO

    84. Paula Rose says:

      Oi darlings – lay off Peekay that was a jestful comment, ffs get a grip!

    85. john king says:

      I am still thinking this one through so forgive me if it seems a little off beam, (and o/t)

      first we have Abdel basset ali al Megrahi released by the Scots government in a humanitarian gesture as he was dying of cancer,
      and now suddenly we have a reopening of the case with police Scotland (patsies) releasing information that we have two other “people of interest”
      one of whom is Abdullah Sennusi who just happens to be Ghadaffi’s erstwhile brother in law and his chief of intelligence and a more unlikable man you could not imagine
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Senussi
      Why?
      why now, he’s under a death sentence in Libya and not …very likely…to be extradited to the UK to stand trial…Ahhh now I get it,

      so we have the British foreign office and the minister of state for trade department screaming at Cameron to get Iran back in the mainstream of the public consciousness as being “a country we can do business with”
      lets remember this
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
      and ask ourselves if Ghadaffi’s compensation
      was all it seemed http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7703110.stm

      Put yourself in his position, he sees an opportunity to reopen relations with the west, the cost of 1.5billion in compensation to the Lockerbie victims families as a small price to pay for normalized relations with the west,

      We’re being had folks
      Iran downed Pan Am 103 in retaliation for the disgusting destruction of the Iranian flight which flew over the gulf ever week at the same time and in spite of the fact the Americans shot it out of the sky when it was still in Iranian airspace we’re expected to accept they believed themselves to be under attack in spite of the Iranian aircraft’s transponder being active and identifying it as a civilian aircraft,

      But we need to make pals with Iran (Obama told us its ok)so we need to bury the Lockerbie issue for all time and what better way than to pin it on a scumbag whose about to be executed?

    86. JLT says:

      A nice little addition to be placed each week on Nicola’s papers when she attends First Ministers Questions.

      Nicola will be praying each week for Ruthie to walk into a trap of her own making by trying to be clever one Thursday lunchtime and try and discuss ‘policing issues’.

      In fact, they may have to call the police …as it could be a car crash for Ruthie.

    87. john king says:

      peekay
      “Probably not, but you’re also the only one around here that gets fucking paid to do it”

      Whoohahahahahaha fucking love it,
      your a dead man! 🙁

    88. Ruby says:

      peekay: Are we not supposed to be having a debate where all participants make a contribution?

      My contribution for today is a transcript of the Jeremy Vine show. Sure everyone can go and listen to the Jeremy Vine show but I find having something written down gives you a totally different perpective it gives you time to consider what is being said.

      I do like the fact that Westminster produces a PDF transcript of all Westminster meeeting.

      I don’t know if Holyrood do that or not nor do I know if the BBC do it.

      I’ve started to transcribe the Jeremy Vine show but being that I don’t do shorthand or know how to use Dragon Voice Recognition software or whatever it is pro journalist.

      I will post the first bit and you can let me know if you are interested in the rest.

    89. Ruby says:

      https://transcribe.wreally.com/

      Perhaps worth further research!

    90. Graham MacLure says:

      Peekay, check the NHS site to see if they do retrofit brains.

    91. Ruby says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06g7qnw

      Jeremy Vine at the beginning:
      The SNP are still riding on a wave in Scotland but how good is their ACTUAL record in government.

      35.53

      Jeremy Vine:
      First the Scottish National Party they’ve never had it better the number of positive headlines they’ve generated over the last couple of years has been astonishing from leading the charge for Scottish Independence to a high profile switch of leader from Alex Salmond to Nicola Sturgeon to an astonishing clean up, a sweep of Scottish seats in this year’s general election and this week it is all about their party conference in Aberdeen inevitably the press continue to focus on whether another Independence referendum could be in the pipe line but leave that to one side because there is something rather crucial missing throughout this period the SNP have been responsible for running an entire country so what are the headlines saying about how are they are getting on with THAT with education, with the NHS with crime is it the case that the Independence referendum has completely distracted us all and the SNP itself from domestic policy in Scotland. The party has never been more popular their poll ratings are the highest they been since they first came to power in 2007 meanwhile their achievements in government are less obvious there are certain areas where their critics notably Scottish Labour say they are failing big attainment levels are down in the education system NHS spending isn’t keeping up with the rest of the UK changes to the police force in Scotland have been a bit of a mess so yes the SNP are popular but how good is their track record? Lets go first to Glen Campbell political correspondent at BBC Scotland. You’ve been at the SNP Conference in Aberdeen Glen are they starting to feel hang on we need to go back to basics a little bit?

    92. john king says:

      The Iranian aircraft was shot down by USS Vincennes on third of July 1988 and Pam am 103 was downed on 21 December 1988 go figure!
      screamingly obvious it was Libya eh?

    93. Bob Mack says:

      What the political commentators miss is rather obvious to the population of Scotland.

      If we do not vote SNP what is left ?
      Labour Whose record in Scotland speaks for itself.

      Tories. Not a snowballs chance in hell

      Lib Dems The Tory message boys who were turned on by power and sold their soul.

      That is what it comes down to really ,and whilst the mass media try to convince us otherwise we are acutely aware that anything other than SNP will not serve us well.

      That is the bottom line.

    94. Ruby says:

      Part 2 Coming soon part 3 feature Iain Murray Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland

      37:16
      Glen Campbell

      I think they feel pretty confident to be honest although they keep stressing that they are not complacent with seven months to the next Scottish election they’ve been in charge of the Scottish Government which as you say runs the NHS education policing in Scotland they’ve been in charge of all of those services for eight years now and they think they’ve built up a reputation for competence but their political opponents say they’ve been too busy campaigning for Independence in recent years that they’ve taken their eye off the ball and they k that as the election draws nearer the public will focus more closely on what has actually been happening in these key public services

      Jeremy Vine
      Are they not vulnerable lets us say on something like the NHS where you can always find ammunition

      Glen Campbell
      That’s right they would say NHS waiting times are better now than when they took over from Labour and the Liberal Democrats eight years ago but if you look at their own target for accident and emergency they want 95% of people to wait no longer than 4 hours now that is a target that they are persistently struggling to meet and some of the most severe problems are at the new super hospital that has just been built in Glasgow. You look at education for instance Nicola Sturgeon the First Minister and SNP leader would be the first to acknowledge that attainment levels are not good enough with one recent survey suggesting they may be going in the wrong direction. The government says there will be a renewed focus on that and when it comes to policing the big reform that the SNP pushed through was the merger of Scotland’s regional police forces into one single service and there have been problems flowing from that including a big knock to staff morale according to a staff survey and problems in the call handing service you’ll remember the terrible incident in the summer where there was a crash on the M9 motorway that the police failed to respond to for 3 days which ultimately left 2 people dead.

      Jeremy Vine

      Thank you very much Glen Campbell who has been at the SNP conference in Aberdeen. We are going to speak shortly to an SNP MSP about their record in office but first a Labour MP in Scotland, no THEE Labour MP in Scotland. Iain Murray Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland Good Afternoon to you.

    95. Glamaig says:

      @Ruby
      thanks for transcribing that. What an appalling piece of propaganda. Radio 2 arent even subtle.

      The last time I listened to them was a day or two before the referendum when they were reading out messages supposedly from people who claimed they had been abused and intimidated by Yessers. It sounded fake.

      I switched off and havent listened since.

    96. Ruby says:

      Bob Mack says:
      16 October, 2015 at 8:03 pm

      What the political commentators miss is rather obvious to the population of Scotland.

      If we do not vote SNP what is left ?

      Ruby replies:

      There is only ONE PARTY
      ONE PARTY worth voting for
      ONE PARTY who will fight for Scotland
      ONE PARTY to oppose the Tories
      Scotland is a ONE PARTY Nation.

      I feel song lyrics coming on.

      Anyway back to transcribing the words of Iain Murray.

    97. Sinky says:

      Strange that BBC never ask SNP MPs to comment on London Labour’s annual conference

    98. CRAIGthePICT says:

      Good spot, and another lie exposed. The unionist parties, their newspapers and their supporters are all positively pathological. All of them.

    99. Dan Huil says:

      @Ruby. You must have a strong stomach typing out all that unionist garbage.

    100. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och Ruby…

      You have to remember that the Rev uses HAMMERS! (My wrist will bear witness.) Don’t post HUGE blocks of contiguous text – they cause the eyes to cross.

      Stick in paragraph breaks (double return/enter) every couple of sentences, to make it easier on the eyes.

    101. john king says:

      Ruby says
      “I feel song lyrics coming on.

      Anyway back to transcribing the words of Iain Murray.”

      maybe give this one a try
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6iRNVwslM4

    102. Jim Thomson says:

      @Ruby you can add formatting to your posts if you try the following:

      Look at the bold text above the box that you use to enter your text. Stuart shows an i and a b enclosed in chevrons. Those will switch on italics and bold respectively.

      To switch italics and bold off simply put a “/” immediately before the i and/or b and enclose in chevrons. You can see the effect immediately in the text that appears below the green “Submit Comment” button

      If you want to show a quotation try using “blockquote” (without the quote marks) enclosed in chevrons and use the “/blockquote” to switch it off again. The chevrons don’t appear in the text because they are control characters that tells WordPress a formatting command is enclosed in them.

      this is how a blockquote enclosed comment appears

      I wish I had your tenacity to sit and type out that drivel. Thanks for doing it 🙂

    103. Ruby says:

      Part 3. Transcribing Iain Murray’s words wasn’t easy. I had to keep checking what he said. There are probably some mistakes in this transcript but I can’t bothered listening again. Perhaps someone else can have a listen and point out my mistakes. The most interesting parts are Jeremy’s questions.

      39:40

      Jeremy Vine
      It sounds as if it’s steady as she goes with the SNP you are not really taking any lumps out of them

      Iain Murray

      Well Nicola Sturgeon said back in 2011 that a party who is in it’s second term in office cannot avoid taking responsibility for it’s own failings now I think the fact that the SNP only want to talk about the constitution shows they are trying to deflect away from all the problems that there are in Scotland and their dreadful record in government since 2007

      Jeremy Vine
      So what’s the big one for you?

      Iain Murray
      Well it’s about public services the Scottish parliament have always had full control over public services and I think you heard there from Glen Campbell some of the issues in the National Health Service and infact the spending of the Scotland is much much less than even a Conservative Government in England in terms of that comparison education attainment gap between the richest and the poorest is growing 6,000 children in Scotland still leave primary school unable to read and we have the shambles of police Scotland and a YouGov poll out today say 63% of Scottish public think the police aren’t doing a good job and the police Scotland was a mistake you can see thoughout the whole course of the last 8 years the SNP have had a majority government aswell since 2011 and they haven’t used that majority to improve the lives and life chances of Scots

      Jeremy Vine:

      I’ll put these points to Mr Brown in a second but I do have to say if the SNP are that bad Labour must be shocking to lose to them.

      Iain Murray
      Well I think we are still in the post referendum politics in Scotland and we see that by the SNP constantly wanting to talking about the triggers for a 2nd referendum
      we’ve had the discussion about the dreadful days that Labour had in May and that was the perfect storm of coming out of that post referendum discussion and also looking at what we had with regard to the Conservatives at the UK Level so this is an incredibly complex issue and what we want to do in the run up to the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary Election is to hold the government of what any colour the government is to account on their record and it’s quite clear the SNP’s record in government for the last eight years has been nothing short of appalling in terms of things they’ve got responsibility for.

      Jeremy Vine:
      What is your policy on Trident this afternoon?

      Iain Murray:
      Well our policy on Trident in terms of the Labour Party’s policy on Trident hasn’t changed it was a policy we went into with regards to the manifesto one that was approved by the party in the National Policy forum and as Jeremy Corbyn has set out the party will go through a policy reform with regards to Trident and well enter

      Jeremy Vine: You haven’t got one? You haven’t got one?

      Iain Murray:
      Jeremy the policy of the Labour Party with regards to Trident is the policy we had in the General Election which is to have a minimal credible nuclear deterrent at sea. That is the policy of the Labour Party at this moment across the United Kingdom. We will have a discussion and a debate with regards to that policy changes

      Jeremy Vine
      With only one MP and a policy on Trident that can best be described as being influx with greatest respect your party is a total shambles in Scotland isn’t it?

      Iain Murray:
      I disagree with that I don’t think we should have a debate here about whether debate means division I think its

      Jeremy Vine
      You can’t have any division you’ve only got one MP

      Iain Murray:
      It comes out of a very bad general election result for the Labour Party we have a new leadership team in Scotland and the UK. Kezia Dugdale is doing a fantastic job in Scotland trying to get the agenda and the narrative onto talking about what people in the street want to talk about which is public services it’s quite right for a party that’s come out of a general election to go through a policy analysis and debate about the future. Our agenda and manifesto was rejected at the General election so
      it’s right for Jeremy and his new team working with the new Scottish managerial leadership team to go through a policy renewal process I think that’s healthy and we should be welcoming it.

      Jeremy Vine:
      Thank you very much Iain Murray

    104. Macart says:

      How politics works.

      Quite simple really.

      In exchange for position, responsibility, pretty decent wage + Exs…

      … Dae yer joab, dae whit yer telt and don’t fucking lie to and/or attempt to manipulate your employers.

      No rocket science.

      This post by the Rev is merely the latest in a very, very, very long line of exposed double standards. They call it politics or politicking. I call it hypocrisy, lies and naked manipulation.

      They call it a game. I call it fucking with our perceptions and opinions to profit personal agendas.

      They call it acceptable (see under current defence for a certain Mr Carmichael). I do not.

      If I seek to deceive, manipulate or pretty much down right lie to my employer, I expect a damn sight more than the Revs hammers to fall on me. I’m looking at losing my job, facing tribunals and dependent on the lie/offence possibly criminal court proceedings. THAT is life in the world outside of politics. THAT is real life action and consequence. We face that every day.

      For the meeja Johnnies and policy wonks whom we know sift this site on a daily basis, THIS ‘politics as it is practiced’ in the UK is what we are sick to death of. Its why your parties of choice have a vote share resembling a shoe size and one of the reasons your titles readerships are falling off a cliff.

      Take a hint.

    105. msean says:

      Thanks Jim Thomson, I didn’t know that either,cheers! I learn something everyday on here. I always wondered how that was done.

    106. Ruby says:

      I’ll see what I can do re formating tomorrow.

      I want to transcribe the comments particularly the one from the English women who moved from England to Aberdeen and sent her children to private school but has a lot to say about state schools

      IF YOU WANT TO SHOW ME HOW IT’S DONE I WOULD BE HAPPY TO READ YOUR TRANSCRIPTION OF the words of Professor Pish from the Big Debate

      Has anyone actually had a good hammering from Rev Stu or is he all talk and no action?

      Are different coloured fonts available? I could perhaps do a Spike inspired post with all different colours.

    107. Thepnr says:

      @Macart

      Well said that man.

      UK type politics only works if the media back them up and day after day shovel shit into the minds of the electorate.

      To me at least it seems that the majority of journalists in this country are paid shills only too willing to serve their corporate and government masters rather than their fellow citizens.

      Yes, I’m talking about YOU.

      Those with the wool lifted from their eyes, those that voted Yes have seen through your shenanigans and you will no longer be trusted.

      There is a new media and you are not part of it. Does it pain you?

    108. Ruby says:

      Testing

      Testing

      Perhaps I do need to read ‘this page’

      I hate reading rules.

    109. Ruby says:

      The transcription of Iain Murrays words seem to have vanished into cyber space. Perhaps it’s been hammered due to all the dodgy formatting.
      Here are the interesting bits.

      Jeremy Vine:
      What is your policy on Trident this afternoon?

      Jeremy Vine:
      You haven’t got one? You haven’t got one?

      Jeremy Vine:
      With only one MP and a policy on Trident that can best be described as being influx with greatest respect your party is a total shambles in Scotland isn’t it?

      Jeremy Vine:
      You can’t have any division you’ve only got one MP

    110. liz says:

      @Ruby, no it’s all there.

      Have to say I laughed as it sounded like JV thought IM was a bit of a plonker

    111. msean says:

      tested

    112. msean says:

      italics

    113. OT: Since folks here just luv the BBC please donate what you can.

      How the BBC Stole the Referendum – The Documentary

    114. Ruby says:

      Phew! just when I thought I was getting a hammering.

      The whole post has appeared now and it’s bold bold bold!

      Got it you have to do an end tag otherwise the whole thing is bold.

      I just wanted to bold Jeremy Vine’s comments.

      Time for a cup of tea and one of my Ginger muffins. Well they are my Ginger muffins because I bought them not because I baked them. They sound good they are gingerbread with lumps of ginger. I do love ginger.

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      (@Ruby_
      Iain Murray:
      Jeremy the policy of the Labour Party with regards to Trident is the policy we had in the General Election which is to have a minimal credible nuclear deterrent at sea.

      I can understand “minimal”, and I can understand “at sea”, but how does Ian Murray get to describe himself as “credible”?

    116. Thepnr says:

      @Ruby

      I can see that you are really enthusiastic, I’ve tried that, transcribing a radio talk and it aint easy. So well done on that.

      Maybe though slow down a wee bit and get the basics right first, like paragraph breaks, I wouldn’t like to see any accidents involving hammers.

    117. Glamaig says:

      @Ruby
      that’s hilarious! JV giving the MP for Red Morningside a hard time. Maybe R2 has something going for it after all.

      When you hear this pish on the radio you just go ‘whit??!!’ and get on with your day, but seeing it in black and white kind of preserves it for posterity so we can pick over it at our leisure over a beer and enjoy the fact he is a total car crash.

    118. ArtyHetty says:

      Macart@9.27pm.

      What you say, so well, thanks.

      It is just a tad topsy turvy when politicians in ukok can lie, cajole and manipulate. Thing is, it has always been like that in ukok, you just have to read Keir Hardie’s letters to see what crap he was dealing with, a different era, but the toffs and their hangers on, kept their gravy train and they knew how to, same now.

    119. Macart says:

      @Ruby

      Doffs bunnet. I couldn’t stand to listen to word one from Murray. How you did that without having a fit of some kind deserves medals or at the very least a large glass of something potent. 🙂

      @Thepnr

      They’re not ignorant. They know fine well why folk are turning their backs on them. They simply refuse to act any other way. Their problem? WE have the power to wreck their media and put the politicians out of a job.

      All we have to do is walk away from their titles and sack those politicians we find behaving unacceptably.

      In Scotland we’ve just rediscovered the fact that we are their employers. We have the final say over all of their careers and all we ask to reverse this state of affairs, is that they do the job we expect of them.

      In the media what we expect is journalism to replace coloured commentary.

      In our politicians we expect honest representation from those not in government. From those who are in government we expect that in exchange for our taxes and our trust they administer our needs, protect our livelihoods and lives, care for our poor and dispossessed (there but for the grace of God) and last but by no means least seek to serve, not direct. Politicians are the people we pay to care for US. That is the job and that is the duty of care due.

      A government should reflect the people it serves, not twist the people to serve its own ends.

    120. Ruby says:

      What is meant by paragraph breaks?

      Are you referring to the tag?

      It’s been a long time since I did html I need a bit of a refresher course.

    121. cearc says:

      Ruby,

      Well done, thanks for that.

      ‘Jeremy Vine
      You can’t have any division you’ve only got one MP’

      Best laugh for ages.

    122. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ruby –

      Here’s to ye.

      As others have commented, well-done. Must’ve been a serr fecht, but you got some nuggets. (‘You can’t have a split – you’ve only got one MP.’ !! Brilliant.)

      Rev once mentioned an app he was using to ease transcription – I think it somehow slowed down the speech so that you didn’t have to keep ‘rewinding’. No idea what it was called, but that type of thing may be of use if you really are masochistic and intend to do something similar again.

      🙂

    123. Ruby says:

      earlier post should have p before tag. I did write the html for the p tag but it disappeared.

      cearc: A lot of Jeremy Vine’s comments were really worth transcribing.

      I liked

      What is your policy on Trident this afternoon?

    124. Ruby says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      I don’t think I will be taking up transcribing professionally but it was quite an interesting experiment.

      I did it from the iplayer which is not the best as you can’t fine tune the rewind on the iplayer.

      If I were ever to do it again I would record the programme and then split the MP3 into 1 min sections

    125. Tom Platt says:

      The situation that Rev Stu describes with the Scottish Conservatives is astonishing to me. They are behaving more like Westminster Tories!

      I look forward to Scotland becoming a normal country. Normal countries do not have large proportions of their population voting for political parties based in another country..and a country whose political leaders show such antagonism towards Scotland. The prefix “Scottish” often used before Labour, LibDems or Conservative needs to be universally recognised in Scotland as a disguise used by branch offices to mask the UKish agenda of their HQs at the expense of Scotland and Scots. What business do Westminster based parties have in standing for election to Holyrood and to Scottish local councils?

      After Holyrood elections in May 2016 and Council elections in 2017 we look as though we will can reasonably expect to be in a very different position than today. Independence should seem even more inevitable, particularly if there has been a rise in the representation of non SNP Scottish parties to replace the discredited Westminster based ones.

      I will be disappointed if IndyRef2 has not occurred before 2020. Nicola’s speech has changed little IMO.

    126. cearc says:

      Hmm, Inverwotsit, that’s next week.

      Don’t things creep up suddenly when one is busy doing sod-all?



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