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Wings Over Scotland

With permission

Posted on October 16, 2015 by

So shortly after this:


Came this:


So there you have it. After months of “investigation”, Scottish Labour has made its decision on what it considers to be an acceptable standard of internet discourse. The above is fine in Kezia Dugdale’s book. Just a bit of harmless banter between adults.

And that’s grand. But do feel free to bookmark it in readiness for the next time they go crying to the media with a dossier of “abuse”.

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  1. 16 10 15 22:43

    With permission | Speymouth

143 to “With permission”

  1. Nation Libre says:

    Surely that could be persued in court, stating that someone is motivated by racial hatred of the English

    Has Mr Not-so-Smart any money?

  2. caledonia says:

    Press will be all over this tomorrow
    oh wait a minute labour member thats ok then

  3. Paula Rose says:

    It’s only in the instance.

  4. Dan Watt says:

    English and Scots are, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the same race, Caucasian.

    Even his “argument” is invalid.

  5. Andy Borland says:

    To clarify then, Scottish Labour’s tolerance of racist scumbags is matched only by the their abysmal grammar?
    Good to know.

  6. Harry McAye says:

    In Ian Smart’s twisted world you cannot say anything against Westminster without it being hatred of the English. So he makes these casual accusations like he’s making a cup of tea. Alex Salmond was raging when a Scots crowd clapped some black English athletes according to the lame lawyer (not up to Professor Pish standard I’ll admit). So easy to type such guff without any logic especially when you know that Scottish(?) Labour will pretty much let you say anything you like.

  7. Bob Sinclair says:

    To be fair,he’s about as stable as the rest of them.

  8. MJS Dundee says:

    “Racial hatred of the English”?

    Where does that demented (less than)Smart get off? Stewart’s wife and our Health Secretary – Shona Robison – was born in Saltburn (near Middlesborough).

    I’ve never known Stewart to struggle with anything much less the facts, but it’s pretty clear that Mr Smart has little chance of developing an IQ akin to his shoe size. A fine specimen of a SLabber is he not?

    I don’t think “embarrassing” really covers the residual dregs of SLab.

  9. Farnorthdavie says:

    So even Brian Roy, Scottish General Secretary of the Labour Party, thinks there is a Scottish Labour Party and that it has members!!

  10. John H. says:

    Of course SLAB let him away with this kind of stuff. He’s only saying what they think.

  11. karmanaut says:

    So SNP supporters and people who support Scottish independence are fascist scum?

    Scottish Labour are OK with that view.

    Nobody is voting Labour In Scotland any more.

    Are these things connected?

  12. Cath says:

    Is it just me or does that lead singer look a bit like David Torrance without the glasses?

  13. NiallD says:

    “Don’t do as I do, do as I tell you” typical Slab double standards.

    Not only that, but that has to be one of the worst formal letters I have seen. It is full of mistakes and grammatical errors…….shabby stuff!
    ( quick check that my grammar is ok. Think so. Post)

  14. Dan Huil says:

    Perhaps Smart should see a doctor who specializes on treating people who are pathalogically aggressive? He obviously needs help. At least his crazed outbursts will show people how low unionism has fallen.

  15. Macart says:

    Just dire. 🙁

    I never want to hear the words ethics or standards come out of Ms Dugdale’s mouth ever again.

    Next May, let’s make sure of that.

  16. Thepnr says:

    Ian Smart; John McTernan; Jim Murphy

    Three peas from the same pod. Fuck them.

  17. Jim Thomson says:

    @Cath 10:19pm

    You’ll have Suggs (“that lead singer”) suing you for defamation of character if you’re not careful 😉

  18. galamcennalath says:

    20% of Scots plan to vote Labour. Sigh. Nostalgia? Misplaced allegiance? Brand loyalty?

  19. muttley79 says:

    Over the last 8 years, since the SNP first won and held political office at a national level, I have noticed that more and more unionists are using the same horrible and hate filled tactics that Ian Smart is using. It is toxic politics, and Smart in particular has completely discredited himself with his conduct and extreme outbursts. Any party with any integrity or decency would have expelled this pathetic individual ages ago. That SLAB have not done so tells you how low they have sunk, they are in the gutter.

    To accuse Stuart Hosie of racism is horrible and without any justification. As far as I can tell Hosie has been a calm, decent, and eloquent politician. I say we keep calm, and watch them self destruct, and stew in their own hatred and bile! 😀 😀

  20. HandandShrimp says:

    Ian is consistently good value for money 🙂

    The extensive coverage of the SNP conference must be really rotting the SLab socks.

  21. yesindyref2 says:

    Ian Smaart is an anagram of Martians.

  22. galamcennalath says:

    Do these UKOKers plan to become rUKers after independence?

    Or, will they stay and spend the rest of their life’s bitterly hating Scotland?

  23. heedtracker says:

    They won, get over it. It gets itchy and scratchy with these guys some times. In the Press and Journal today, which I should stop calling the neo fascist Voice of the North, there’s a few rich white dudes that routinely write Vote NO or else letters pretty much like Ian Smart would, if he lived in Aberdeen.

    Anyway today’s letter of the P&J vote NO day from rich white dudes, said that YES campaigners and Salmond in particular had desecrated the Saltire by flying it last year. It gave a really nasty boost to a previous letter about how there was only one Scotland at Hampden for the Poland match and its all down to Scottish independence.

    So the nutcase up there has company and they really do not like democracy.

  24. Anne Graham says:

    Why is this “Brian Roy, Scottish General Secretary” so illiterate?

  25. gillie says:

    This is what Brian Roy retreated;

    “Responding to news reports that 1200 jobs may be at risk at Tata Steel sites in Scunthorpe and Scotland, Roy Rickhuss, General Secretary of Community, which represents the majority of those affected, said:

    “Clearly this is extremely worrying news for all those who may be affected. We’ll be seeking further discussions with Tata Steel to understand the full detail, examine alternatives that may safeguard jobs and uphold our principle of opposing compulsory redundancies. “”

    ‘Scunthorpe and Scotland’ ???????

    The specific omission of Motherwell and Cambuslang to be replaced by the generic “somewhere north of the border in Jockland” shows how insignificant Scotland is in Labour minds.

  26. heedtracker says:

    It gave a really nasty boost to a previous letter about how there was only one Scotland FLAG at Hampden for the Poland match and its all down to Scottish independence.


  27. ArtyHetty says:

    This kind of crap is actually how the folks, well some from within and without, view Scotland and the SNP and Scotland’s people. The psychological manipulation is seeping through. However, those who soak this up are a bit thick anyway, unwilling to see beyond their cosy, nasty little bubble. We all know what bubbles do don’t we.

    The ire I was exposed to when recently in englandshire north was depressing, (some very ignorant folks sadly) but not half as depressing as the tory attacks on the poor, sick and vulnerable no matter where they are from.

    The Scottish government are cushioning the ukok attacks on the population, and working in the interests of the actual people, and ukok don’t like it, one bit. Tough!

  28. Onwards says:

    galamcennalath says:
    16 October, 2015 at 10:30 pm

    20% of Scots plan to vote Labour. Sigh. Nostalgia? Misplaced allegiance? Brand loyalty?


    I was trying to find the percentage of Scots still not using the internet and found this:

    “The percentage of adults using the internet for personal use was 82.0% in 2014.”

    If that figure has risen on trend to 84% this year, then it means around 1 in 6 Scottish voters still aren’t online.

    I would imagine a large number of the remaining Labour voters can be found within that statistic.

  29. Sandy Henderson says:

    Just looked at Ian Smart’s facebook/twitter. Says that he’s been verified. I’m sure they mean CERTIFIED.

  30. caz-m says:

    Sky News preview tonight,

    “Lets have a look at the Scottish papers”, regarding the possible redundancies at the steelworks.

    And what Scottish papers to the decide to show? Yes, the Daily Record and The Scotsman.

    Funny how they never preview The National or The Sunday Herald.

    Their papers of choice, when discussing Scotland seem to be, The Herald, The Scotsman and the Daily Record.

    Just to rub our noses in it, they even interviewed McSquirter from the SNP Conference hall in Aberdeen.

  31. clochoderic says:

    I see Smarty has made his usual early start on the swally this weekend. The dipso dinosaur is usually half-jaked by this time so maybe he will read this tomorrow.

    He is one of those guys we all know – always the first to start slurring his words at parties, being offensive to strangers, wanting to pish on people’s doors etc.

    He is a moral coward who hides behind his profession and political contacts while hosing ordure at random without any fear of retribution.

    The jumped-up little pencil neck squirt would shite himself if put in a room with Stuart Hosie and invited to repeat his accusation.

    And this is what passes for a deep thinker in Slab these days.

  32. K1 says:


    ‘…this is what passes for a deep drinker in Slab these days.’

    You’re welcome 🙂

  33. ArtyHetty says:

    Re; Onwards@11.05pm

    Ah, but it depends what we mean by, online. I know quite a few who are, online, yes mainly older friends, who like the idea of the internet, use it to confirm their ignorance. In other words they do not use it for news, social media or for information really.

    They are well capable of affording fast speed up to date internet and state of the art computers, but choose to ignore the actual wealth of info out there to inform themselves, they are usually social media haters as well.

    Facebook, twitter! No it’s the graun and bbc for them.

    No, they are quite, ‘offline’ and it’s an active choice to confirm their own prejudices.

    ‘Moderation in all things’, a good friend of mine says when I am having a glass or 3 of wine. But hey he has a 3 bed detached house, which I would say is a tad excessive for one person, while we 3 pile into a small overcrowded flat and still feel lucky! :))

  34. Dr Jim says:

    I think we should do all we can to support Mr Smart in saying many more things like that and to bigger audiences

    A campaign wouldn’t go amiss “Free Speech for Smart”

    Gaun yersel son gie it laldy huv anither drink (hic)

  35. Graham MacLure says:

    Dr Jim@ 11:23
    Totally agree. Mr. Smart ,Professor Pish and the pet shop boy should be publicized and scrutinised daily.

  36. Grouse Beater says:

    Am currently receiving highly abusive twitter from dim Unionist unable to discuss anything rationally.

    In time, you learn to detest the British establishment for its casual racism and its hatred of democracy.

  37. Cadogan Enright says:

    The MI5 jibe earlier in the week was almost certainly actionable

  38. Grouse Beater says:

    Enright: The MI5 jibe earlier in the week was almost certainly actionable

    That’s an obtuse remark, Enright. Don’t be coy.

  39. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Grouse Beater

    If the Rev had a few bob spare it would be worth a punt

  40. Chic McGregor says:

    I think at some point we must recognise that Mr Smart may not quite be the full shilling and our ire, therefore, may be better directed at those who use his ‘services’ rather than at the man himself.

  41. Grouse Beater says:

    Chic: Mr Smart may not quite be the full shilling

    He’s among friends, comforted by them because they say similar things.

  42. mealer says:

    Cadogan Enright 11.48

    And Mr Smart is almost certainly sectionable.(I hope that isn’t actionable)

  43. Grouse Beater says:

    If anybody watched HIGNFY they’ll know my assessment is correct: it’s another tired, safe stand-up show was full of fun banter, surreal animal jokes, (mostly from Merton) and taunting a political guest, but next to no satire.

    Where is our sharp, satirical look at the week’s politics?

  44. Chic McGregor says:

    @Grouse Beater

    “He’s among friends, comforted by them because they say similar things.”

    In that case perhaps his strange pronouncements are not that strange within that micro-bubble context after all.

    Interesting question, if an entire group has a distorted perspective can an individual within that group and who holds to the group’s view still be considered to be aberrant?

  45. Thepnr says:


    Tough shit mealer, you put your head above the parapet.

    Good on yeh!

  46. mealer says:

    Chic 12.32

    Aberrant? No.A neep.

  47. Chic McGregor says:

    @Grouse Beater

    TBH I cannot remember if it was HIGNFY or MTW last week which had a good old dig at Robert Peston (think it was the latter) but when I saw that my immediate thought was ‘that confirms the rumour he is moving from the BBC then’.

    These shows are past the point of being divest of meaningful satire and are already well into full blown BBC propaganda vehicle mode.

  48. K1 says:

    Only aberrant to those not in ‘that group’, perfectly normal within the ‘distorted perspective’ group.

  49. Tam Jardine says:

    Aye- nothing more needs said (by me) about Ian Smart. The next words required are from the Scottish Labour outfit.

    I have been working through the implications of the SNP’s stance on indyref 2… I can understand the official party position. I suppose I am one of the zoomers within the party that would hold another referendum next year and possibly lose it.

    One slogan still resonates with me from the indyref. We can, we should, we must. In all the positioning and planning and desire to show good governance we seem to have forgotten the last of these. We must.

    The SNP are now a successful party of government and long may that remain but the campaign for independence is going to need to leave the post referendum phase and transform into something bigger. Perhaps this weekend is an education, or maybe a realignment. The SNP are the political wing of the independence campaign.

    We must. Why must we? On a personal level, I am able to muddle through come what may but if I am a steel worker staring at an uncertain future with redundancy, a forced career change, a possible move to pastures new or life struggling on the dole in a place where hunners of others are in the same boat then platitudes such as being ‘better together’ or having the ‘best of both worlds’ are pretty inadequate.

    Scotland may never win the world cup in rugby or fitba. We may never challenge the big economies or play a decisive role in world politics and we may never become the socialist, egalitarian utopia we all want. We may never do any of these things if we are independent but we certainly will not within the current constituional arrangement.

    We must because we have a chance to do things differently, to support each other and choose WHO the priorities are… the people over big business. The people over the bankers. The people over the city of london. The people over the monarchy. It may not be easy but the route we are heading down with Cameron and Osborne and the tory gang in charge is a losing strategy for us. For all of us.

    The next 100 years are not going to be dominated by the old arguements of the unions and the EU and left versus right. Water. Oil, Electricity. Gas. Energy. Food. The ability of the state to shelter the people from harm and marshall their strengths and abilities, to sell products other people want and forge alliances with people on an equal footing.

    There is not a hope in hell of addressing the needs of our citizens in the future whilst we are strapped to the chariot of Cameron, Osborne, May and Johnson and no realistic alternative at this time within the union.

    We must become independent and to do so we are going to need to look at the SNP for support rather than watch them drive the debate forward.

    I read pieces on Ian Smart and just think- ‘why are we wasting our time on this punk?’ Fuck him- if he thinks Hosie’s a racist that just means he is a dismal, demented cretin. Amplify by all means but Smart is an unwilling ally.

    I am much more interested in another Ian- Brotherhood was talking about a forum to work out the way forward. I am limited in all kinds of ways- I am not an expert on anything particularily useful in formulating a plan for the next 5 years of this struggle but there are hundreds, thousands of individuals across this land who can, between them, between us, solve this great riddle and win independence, regain independence to leave our children a legacy they can build on.

    Nothing is written in stone. Nothing is inevitable. The one truth is surely that the powerlessness we have all felt in our fate under decades of westminster rule stems from our communal failure to believe in ourselves and to control tomorrow, to control what we can control.

    If the Scottish economy succeeds in the next ten years the union will be portrayed as a success and independence as a ludicrous pipe dream. If the Scottish economy tanks in the next ten years the union will be portrayed as a success and independence as a ludicrous pipe dream.

    If we are waiting for BBC Scotland or STV or labour or Ian Smart or the journalists at the herald or the scotsman or the record to change their tune we may as well give up now.

    We know the arguements. We know who our enemies are. We know how insane it is for the most resource rich country in Europe to be told we would be an economic basketcase if we go alone.

    So please lets not get tied down with lost souls like Ian Smart when there is work to be done. It is; he is beneath us all.

  50. ClanDonald says:

    I was just reading Ian Smart’s latest blog about how he was certain that the SNP had broken Electoral Commission laws due to an email to Business for Scotland.

    He appeared to be comparing himself to the investigative journalists in All The President’s Men, I think he thought he was going to be responsible for single handedly bringing down the SNP government and winning a Pulitzer prize for his efforts.

    Shame the Electoral Commission threw out their feeble complaint within a few hours of receiving it, lol.

    What a diddy, what a hoot. Guy is off his trolly.

  51. The Man in the Jar says:

    “BBC accused of lies over Scotland politics coverage”

    A worthwhile article in the Milngavie and Bearsden Herald. I dont expect that it will be picked up by any of the major titles. We can but live in hope.

  52. Chic McGregor says:

    @Tam Jardine

    That’s a ten.

  53. The Man in the Jar says:

    Reading over that article in my previous post I had a chuckle at this part. It would appear that the BBC stand at the SNP conference went down well. 🙂

    “Among the more outspoken critics was Glasgow councillor Phil Greene.”

    He told the meeting: “Max Hastings, who is a fairly eminent historian, in his reflections on the Second World War with regards to propaganda said that Goebbels … fighting against the BBC was boxed out of the park because the BBC had a far greater mixture of half truths and lies than the Germans. I don’t think things have changed that much.”

  54. Ronnie says:

    @ Tam Jardine

    I always enjoy your posts, but that was inspirational.

    We must – we will!

  55. Grouse Beater says:

    Man in Jar: BBC accused of lies over Scotland politics coverage”

    Interesting report.

    Confirms my feeling Fiona Hyslop – parroting SNP attitude – is far to sanguine and neutral when it comes to BBC’s support of the status quo.

    As for the BBC official saying yes, they got some things wrong but let’s move on together – should that not be, let’s move on better together?

    You’ve just cheated a nation out of its sovereignty, reviled its aspirations, and mocked its politics, and somehow we should all just … move on?

    F**k you!

  56. T222Deracha says:


    The Westminster government broke the Edinburgh Agreement, breaching purdah in the last week before the referendum. The SNP should have pursued that matter but chose not to, why?.
    Events recently seem to suggest that independence will have to come from other than the SNP. Perhaps other people may take the same view, interesting times are ahead.

  57. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Good to see that SLAB have cleared up that investigation.

    I wonder what the conclusions were and why does Kezia not publicise these matters?

    I think Mr Smart must know where all the skeletons are buried and there will be no moving him.

    All the better for Indy campaign.

    Can we start a fund raiser for Ian to keep him plied with wines of the best quality?

  58. Bruce L says:

    Lol, Smart’s a shite troll. D minus must try harder.

  59. yesindyref2 says:

    @Tam Jardine
    Strangely enough it’s been going through my mind that the SNP can’t push Independence at the moment. There’s Smith going through in the form of an insipid Scotland Act, and that, and Trident is their focus, they weren’t elected for Indy. So that takes care of the MPs.

    Similarly Sturgeon and Co have to concentrate on Scotland within the Union, to win the Holyrood Elections, but also to show how well Scotland can govern ourselves. So that takes care of the MSPs. Councillors do local issues.

    Which leaves ordinary members of the SNP, but not because we / thgey are SNP members but because we support Indy. That’s the same as Green, RISE and Solidarity who have policies. So we’re acting as ourselves, nothing to do with party membership. But we support Indy.

    So yes, it’s up to us to do something, and that’s to help move the support from Indy to 55%, then 60%, at which stage a Referendum is inevitable, and the result very hopeful. I wonder at times if the SNP “hierarchy” in Government are waiting patiently for the grassroots YES to really get going again. Where we lead, they can then follow. The 60% of People of Scotland will have spoken: “We want Indy Ref 2”.

    That’s all.

  60. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, it’s not good enough for me to say “that’s all”, it’s all very well saying “do something”, but what?

    There will be a big difference between the watery results of the Scotland Act, and Devo-Max or Full Fiscal Autonomy. One avenue would be to explore what could be done with the extra powers we should have, the extra revenues, and compare that to where it is or would be without those powers and revenues.

    So for instance investing £1 billion resulting in say 25,000 jobs, how much of that £1 billion comes back into our economy in the way of profit tax, income tax, VAT and other revenues, even including fuel tax and excise duty? Compare FFA with watered down devoplus very little. That helps to show what has been denied to Scotland’s benefits by Westminster obstructing the SNP’s amendment calling for FFA – all powers bar those we decide to let Westminster keep.

    Another is for example the container hub at Hunterston I mentioned the other day, something unlikely to come without FFA or Independence because of the level of investment and borrowing required.

    This could create a series of articles showing the benefits of FFA that will be denied to us, but that we can take with Independence, and a YES vote in Indy Ref 2. It also helps to build our own vision of what Independent Scotland could be like.

  61. Wulls says:

    ian Smart…….. He brings back memories of my grandfathers sage advice….
    “He is more to be pitied than scolded”
    Of far more concern than one loose cannon is the whole structure which allows he and his ilk to flourish. Social ( and mainstream) media have been in a race to the bottom which I honestly thought had been won during the referendum. Apparently not so……..once respectable outlets of journalistic licence like the Scotsman happily run to cretins like Smart for a printable one liner that they can use to goad the moderate commentariat into entering the RTTB …..why ??? To fill column inches, to generate mock outrage, to drag us all down to their level and beat us with experience.
    We are supposed to be left with a lingering gratitude that “quality” newspapers are still telling the whole story. What actually happens is they have generated the slowest moving train crash in history. We know they will implode under the pressure of their own bullshit we just don’t know when.
    Ian smart. The bastard lovechild of Katie Hopkins and Twitter.

  62. caz-m says:

    Wee Ginger Dug:

    Cracks visible in Labour’s SNP obsession …

    DOES anyone know what Labour policy is on anything any more, except that the SNP are bad, very bad? That’s the only policy that Labour have displayed any sort of consistency over, and the only policy capable of uniting a party that’s got more cracks in it than the egg that got splattered on Jim Murphy’s shirt.

    While we know that in the opinion of the Labour Party the SNP are badder than the villain in the country and western song who pushed the blind orphan in the wheelchair off a cliff and then sold their tastefully decorated house for a profit, we don’t actually know what Labour itself stands for.

    What we do know is that whatever issue arises, Kezia Dugdale will pull a concerned face and demand that Nicola Sturgeon does something about it. This does explain why Labour are doing so poorly in the polls; after all, why bother voting for the woman who only ever demands that Sturgeon does something when we can make our own demands on the SNP ourselves. We can do that by voting for their manifesto at an election.

    Absolutely everything is the fault of the SNP, up to and including the inability of the Scottish national fitba team to make any progress in any international competition with the possible exception of the gaun hame early tae greet tae yer maw cup.

    They have the word national in the name, so clearly Nicola is to blame. Although if there was an international tournament for passing the buck and blaming others for your own misfortunes, Scotland would have world-class performers in the shape of Kezia and her team.

    Even so, despite the best efforts of Kezia and the Labour Party, they can’t blame Sturgeon for the unmitigated disaster that currently passes for Labour Party policymaking. Labour’s policy procedures make the Chernobyl disaster look like a careful piece of planning. Two weeks ago, in a bid to portray himself as a responsible deficit-cutting politician in the mould of deficit-cutting politicians who aren’t subject to a constant barrage of abuse in the media – in other words, anyone who’s not a Tory or a Blairite – Labour’s shadow chancellor John McDonnell announced he was going to support George Osborne’s publicity stunt to introduce a fiscal charter.

    The charter would effectively write permausterity into law, but McDonnell was still prepared to go along with it because he thought it wasn’t serious.

    It was going to provide the opportunity to have a few laughs at Osborne’s expense, and Labour could avoid being assaulted by the Tory press like a Ned with a baseball bat up a back alley, for not tackling the deficit.

    But now he’s had second thoughts and has decided to oppose it after all, citing the need to oppose the SNP as one of his reasons.

    This means we are now in the situation where a supposedly socialist shadow chancellor has been forced to adopt a more left-wing position by a political party that the self-same socialist shadow chancellor’s party decries as being right wing.

    Speaking on the BBC, Kezia claimed she’d spoken to the party leadership in London over the weekend, and hinted that she was partially responsible for the policy reversal.

    That’s reversal in the same way that battering a ripe pumpkin into a pulp and then flushing it down the toilet is a reversal of its growth from a seed.

    Kezia may, or may not, have been instrumental in getting the policy changed because Labour want to lay claim to the unique selling point that it’s the only anti-austerity party in Scotland.

    The problem with this claim is not that it is merely untrue, there being two other parties in the Scottish Parliament – the SNP and the Greens – whose anti-austerity credentials are far stronger than Labour’s; the real problem is it was only a few short weeks ago that Labour failed to oppose some of the most brutal of the Tories’ austerity measures.

    It’s not just that Labour came late to the anti-austerity party and now they’re claiming to be its sole organisers, it’s that half of the Labour Party have refused to attend. And they’re being as vocal about their displeasure as Jim Murphy was about the violence caused to him by that egg.

    But John’s also got other reasons, it seems. He’s belatedly realised that opposing George Osborne in Parliament isn’t a joke after all. He went on a visit to Redcar and discovered that people are suffering grievously due to the effects of Tory policies.

    Which does kind of make you wonder if he is, as he claims, a left-wing anti-austerity chancellor in tune with the desires of the working classes, then why didn’t he realise this earlier? That’s an excuse that’s as plausible as Gordie Broon telling us he couldn’t supervise his vow after all because he was busy saving the world.

    The Parliamentary Labour party is now a seething mess of plots, hatred and bile. To be fair, this is what it’s normally like – put a pair of Labour MPs in a room and immediately you’ve got two stabbed backs, three plots, and four slapped faces – but this time it’s all being done in public.

    The biggest problem that Jeremy Corbyn faces is that he was a serial rebel under previous Labour leaders, so now he’s the leader himself everyone else feels perfectly entitled to rebel against him.

    This is Labour’s version of reaping what you sow. While the low paid see their incomes shrink, the disabled are strangled in work assessments and an ideological chainsaw slices through the support once given to the poor and vulnerable, Labour are only interested in turf wars and media positioning.

    Labour are the perfect Westminster party, self-absorbed, short-sighted, selfish, and ultimately useless. As Labour tear themselves apart, there’s only one effective anti-austerity party at Westminster. And it’s the party that tells Scotland we have no future under Westminster. Labour’s ineptitude only confirms that assessment.

  63. schrodingers cat says:

    bin saying this for weeks now

    the snp’s job is to continue to govern wisely as a means of convincing people that Scotland can be successful as an independent country

    it isn’t the snps job to launch yes2 and chose a head figure to lead……it is ours

    robin macalpine anyone?

  64. john king says:

    Dr Jim says
    “Gaun yersel son gie it laldy huv anither drink (hic)”

    Hands up, how many people went hic there?
    TMitJ SAYS
    “It would appear that the BBC stand at the SNP conference went down well. ”

    He did however admit that he was “not sure I would like to defend our complaints process” after one audience member said it appeared to have been “designed to make people lose the will to live”.

    According to my ouija board. 🙂
    Chic mACKgREGOR
    Tam Jardine

    “That’s a ten.”

    Hoss Mackintosh says
    “Can we start a fund raiser for Ian to keep him plied with wines of the best quality?”

    when his tipple of choice would be

    let us spray

  65. gerry parker says:


    “I wonder what the conclusions were and why does Kezia not publicise these matters?”

    An uncharacteristic slip by an otherwise reliable member of the party.


  66. manandboy says:

    Scotland is a bit like a zoo in which half the animals think they’re free. We also have a few hyenas one of which is Smart.

  67. Thepnr says:

    @Tam Jardine

    Brilliant post. gave me goose pimples 🙂

  68. Haggis Hunter says:

    The lunatic fringe of the Brit Nats and the knuckle dragging pro England separatists are noticed in Scotland despite the news blackouts

  69. One_Scot says:

    Ian Smart, such an unfortunate name for someone so stupid. It only goes to affirm my lobotomy theory.

  70. Robert Peffers says:


    Dan Watt says: 16 October, 2015 at 9:48 pm:

    “English and Scots are, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the same race, Caucasian.”

    There is no such race as, “Caucasian”, Dan.

    “The human race is defined as one group of people with common inherited features that distinguish them from other groups of people. All humans of whatever race are currently classified by the anthropologist or biologist as belonging to the one species, Homo sapiens.

    That is the differences between all of the claimed human races are scientifically incorrect, even although they may appear so, for example black vs white skin. All Homo sapiens in the world can interbreed because they have so much in common. All races share over99.99% of the same genetic materials. That means division by race is purely subjective. It also means that the original 3-5 races are subjective descriptions as well.

    In fact the use of such terms is, in itself, racist. The only real differences are factually environmental and cultural. Thank goodness for genetic science that has debunked the idiotic, (mainly white), false supremacist dogmas.

  71. Bill says:

    Poor Ian Smart, he’s desperate to be seen as a British Establishment “outrider”.

    We know that Labour in Scotland will continue to fall, the question is: how far?

  72. galamcennalath says:

    Bill says

    “We know that Labour in Scotland will continue to fall, the question is: how far?”

    Bottomless pit?

  73. r.esquierdo says:

    Mr Smart speaks from his waste expulsion pipe

  74. robertknight says:

    To be fair, if Labour is forced to throw one arsehole out, they’ll have to throw the remaining arseholes out as well.

    What then?

    Labour, to be fair, is simply a gathering place for arseholes, therefore no arseholes = no Labour.

    PS Not being a member of the SNP means that I can put in print WTF I like and it’s sod all to do with NS. Got that Smart-arse?

  75. Angra Mainyu says:

    So, I read Tam Jardine’s lengthy post above and it looks like the truth is starting to filter down: there will be no clear commitment to a second referendum in the 2016 manifesto.

    No goose pimples here. And the idea that we are to devote ourselves to winning the hearts and minds of unionists over the next few years sounds like an extreme form of self-torture — aren’t our politicians supposed to do that sort of dirty work for us?

    To blazes with that.

    An alternative, of course, would be to have a clear commitment to a referendum at the top of the manifesto worded something like this: ‘if the SNP commands majority support in the Scottish Parliament then it will legislate for a referendum on devo-max (I.e. Devolving all power short of Defence & Foreign Policy).

    Polls show that there was about 85% support for Devo-Max. My ideal is full independence but this would be a huge step in the right direction and at some point, Westminster scumbags being what they are, we would inevitably be given opportunity to jump.

    Anyway, I think we could all get right behind that. Sturgeon needs to throw us a bone and the idea that we should all devote ourselves to winning over unionists does nothing but fill an already heavy heart with dread.

    This thing we have going at the moment, this surge of interest and enthusiasm for Scotland and independence, it’s so rare and precious. Anyone who takes it for granted and assumes it will still be here in 5 or 10 years, well, frankly, they are irresponsible.

  76. peter says:

    Re:the comments on reporting Professor Pish to the Law society previously, well maybe it could be useful in Smarts case.

  77. Big Jock says:

    He is motivated by self loathing. Odious creton.

  78. woosie says:

    Mr Misnomer is being encouraged to spout anti-Scots propaganda without labour’s Scotch Branch official stamp, just to get it out there. Another faux pas by the most farcical organization since the goons split up.

    As non-tory voters in england are increasingly aware that labour are really this bad, and that Corbynism is not actually going to be allowed by the rich labour establishment, the SNP may well see a movement towards them from the shires. Quite what form that can take is intriguing.

  79. Proud Cybernat says:

    Another dumb sabre-nat.

  80. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    “All humans of whatever race are currently classified by the anthropologist or biologist as belonging to the one species, Homo sapiens.”

    Call me pedantic but I presume you are talking here about modern humans in which case the anatomically correct term is Homo sapiens sapiens which is a sub-species of homo sapiens:

    “Anatomically modern humans evolved from archaic Homo sapiens in the Middle Paleolithic, about 200,000 years ago.[3] The emergence of anatomically modern human marks the dawn of the subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens,[4] i.e. the subspecies of Homo sapiens that includes all modern humans.” – Source:

  81. gordoz says:

    Says it all about Labour North branch.

    More faces than a polygon

  82. Haggis Hunter says:

    So in Smarties world if Scots do not support England, say in rugby, football, foreign policy and politics then it is anti English?

    Fekkin Neep

  83. Macart says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    No commitment? Throw us a bone? I wouldn’t exactly say the lady has come up short on either Angra. 😀

    In fact I’d say that the First Minister has lit the blue touch paper on Westminster.

    The FM has committed her government to holding any future referendum at any time the people choose or under any major constitutional threat (see EU exit/revoking Human rights laws).

    No other party in the UK will do this, effectively hold the door open for the electorate. But it is mainly up to us, not just the SNP. The SNP are the only party in the UK who will facilitate the constitutional and popular wishes of the electorate and that would be the whole electorate, not simply their own support.

    THAT is the difference between the SNP and the old establishment parties, and that is what makes them fit to serve and govern. In short the SG don’t set the date of the next referendum, we do and that’s as it should be.

    As for devo max/FFA that’s what May’s election was all about. The SG were given a mandate to take our wishes to Westminster and improve on the Smith Committee bollocks. During the farce that was the Scotland bill debates, they tabled over twenty amendments including Full Fiscal Autonomy, all of which were defeated and rejected at vote. Every single one, without exception. That should have been near impossible in a democracy. Scotland’s electorate were being taught a lesson.

    Full Fiscal Autonomy (Devo Max) has already been shot down by Westminster. It was never on offer as part of Brown’s VOW, regardless of what the media led the people to believe. It was never on ‘Cameron’s table’ as part of the Smith Commission talks and it was never going to go through the first chamber never mind the HoL or a second reading. Devo Max is a myth and the decision has already been taken by a an overwhelming vote of 508 -56. Or as we see it, one partner voted down the other because they could. The fuckers cheered as the result of the vote in chamber was delivered. Does that sound like any kind of federal solution is on the cards?

    We want out of this bullshit deal? We need to lose the idea of the devolution journey.

  84. Big Jock says:

    Steel closures,Longannet shutting,food banks. This is Thatcher all over again. Scotland’s vandalism continues. And this was the great empire no voters prayed for!

    Angry. Damn right I am angry at no voters. These people need to open the eyes.

    I heard Lorraine Kelly saying it was terrible having all these food banks. Fuck Off Lorraine you millionaire that voted to maintain them.

  85. Truth says:

    Ian Smart has said a lot of distasteful things, but this really takes the biscuit.

    I’m not usually one for calling for legal action, but given Mr Smart’s background I feel it entirely appropriate here.

    To my mind it is clearly a defamatory statement.

  86. Effijy says:

    Dipity Dug set the tone of what she demanded was a cull of internet loonies being put in their place and neutralised by their
    party leader.

    Of course the Dug wrongly accused the First Minister of having any
    real form of relationship with some frustrated independence supporters.

    In response, Nicola directed the Dug to look at idiots like smart who regularly shit in her own kennel club flying the SLAB banner.

    As Smart is still a fully fledged SLAB member, she and her yin pot party have decided that unjustified name calling, offensive language, and violent threats are all quite acceptable!

    As this clown sends Dipity Dug and key Labour Party members regular updates of his abuse via social media, they cannot claim to be uncertain of the extent of his abuse, the reaction to it, and the period over which he has maintained his onslaught.

    I therefore say f*** the lot of you SLAB.

    False accusers, time wasters, liars, and generally nasty people.
    And to think they had to tell us that their Party comes before the people they pretend to represent.

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Good post Macart.

  88. Titus G says:

    Dan Watt says:
    16 October, 2015 at 9:48 pm
    English and Scots are, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the same race, Caucasian.

    Even his “argument” is invalid
    I’m sorry I have to correct you there Dan – the English and the Scots are indeed the same race… but that race is the human one, although I’m not entirely sure the same applies to Mr Smart.

  89. Kenny says:

    It’s tough for politicians to sue someone for any sort of defamation. You know the whole story would be “sour-faced referendum-loser Hosie couldn’t accept some light-hearted banter on Twitter.” It just looks terribly undignified anyway.

    HOWEVER, Smart has form for calling the SNP “Nazis” and “fascists.” Since he is very non-specific about such things, it’s arguable that it’s defamatory to every member of the SNP, since he never specifies very much. He has used claims like “fascist fringe of the party,” but again, without demonstrating that it actually exists and if it does, to identify its make-up, its leadership, how it acts etc., it implies that ALL SNP members freely associate with fascists and Nazis. I wonder what kind of crowd-funding you could get to bring an action against him as just an ordinary SNP member who doesn’t like being tarnished as a fascist or a fascist sympathiser? If nothing else, wouldn’t it be fun to get Dugdale and Murphy and everyone else who follows Smart on Twitter and who knew of his bampot chat into the witness box and ask them what action they took?

  90. Lochside says:

    @ Tam Jardine…brilliant post Tam. I’ve always believed the undermining of the ‘YES’ campaign post REF was a mistake.

    We needed a ‘leading light’ pan-nationalist organisation to agitate and mobilise people on to the street. Tommy Sheridan tried it…fairly successfully, but for unfortunately obvious reasons, could not get all on board.

    I worry about ‘managerial’ style politics…I understand the thinking of the SNP hierarchy…but I don’t buy into it. They cannot hope to continue or sustain the lead over the unionists under the stultifying regime that the UK operates over us.

    If you’re a slave… can’t be half a slave….you’re a slave and that’s all there is to it. Scotland must push on all fronts to bring down the walls of the UK hegemony.

  91. yesindyref2 says:

    Scotland should be excluded entirely from a controversial crackdown on strike ballots and union funding, Roseanna Cunningham said amid fresh calls for Holyrood to seek to block the implementation of planned reforms.

    “It is the only way in which we would be able maintain the integrity of our more progressive approach of working in partnership with trade unions,” she said.”

    That’s the way, and it would help if Scotland had our actual own CBI with a director appointed in Scotland, rather than being just a branch office of the UK CBI. Let’s call it the FSI. Then the three sides could get together and work together.

    And, errr, I’m waiting patiently at the letter-box for my signed book and prints, I think I’ll laminate the prints to protect them. Probably put them on the Unit wall.

    *desperately attempts to get back on topic*

  92. Angra Mainyu says:

    Macart, you’re all over the place. May’s election wasn’t about devo-max.

    As for Westminster and the Lords standing in the way, that’s exactly th sort of galvanising event we want and arguably need. Think about how it would play up here if the SNP put a referendum on devo-max on the first line of the manifesto — more to the point, think how it would play if she won a resounding majority in those circumstances.

    Westminster would be insane to stand in the way of that and if they did it would be playing right into our hands. On top of that, it would be easy to justify a referendum on devo-max; at the end of the day it’s probably something 80% of us would vote for and you could argue that it was a way of implementing The Vow — even Brown is saying the Vow hasn’t been delivered.

    It’s my opinion that the Vow above all else resulted in us losing the referendum. Well, here’s a way to use it in our favour.

  93. JLT says:

    Ach well …you got them, Rev. Another admission. Just like the one from the other day there when you found that wee gem within the Tory Manifesto where the Scottish Tories intended to amalgamate all the Police Forces in Scotland into one main force.

    If you keep this up, they’re not going to have many rocks to cast and throw at the SNP in the near future!

  94. Thepnr says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    “Macart, you’re all over the place.”


  95. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Angra Mainyu: “Macart, you’re all over the place.

    I wish he were, Scotland could do with more Macarts.

  96. Tam Jardine says:

    Angra Mainyu

    Independence can be declared. A referendum on independence can be won. Devomax is different- one hundred percent of voters could vote for it but it is no longer something that is ours to simply take. It has to be granted.

    If the SNP put a pledge in their manifesto to hold a referendum on Devomax (which they won’t) they would surely win the election and then Westminster would have to negotiate terms of the referendum.

    If agrement could be reached on the phrasing of the question and Westminster allowed the referendum to proceed we would need to win.

    Then the fun and games would begin. Remember Smith? Remember near federalism? Remember home rule? Anything we wanted would have to be agreed by Westminster- what kind of settlement do you think would be reached? Would it be favourable to Scotland? If you are a tory MP from the south of England how keen are you going to be to grant the Scots what they want? Or Baroness Mone and her new pals?

    They promised the electorate the earth to get us to vote no and have reneged all the way down the line. Do you think if they attached to the vow a wee caveat saying ‘by the way, your getting control of road signs, APD and some income tax but it will be on our terms and our timetable…. 1 year later and you will still be waiting.’- do you think that would have had the same effect?

    55% of the Scottish electorate gave a mandate for the promises made prior to the referendum. 95% of MPs were returned in May to hold the Westminster establishment to their promise of substantial new powers and they have been told to get tae fuck- whatever we are getting is on Westminster’s terms. What difference is another vote going to make?

    When they renege folk like you and me get pissed off and the 55% no voters rationalise it. The media spin it as a bad deal for Scotland anyway- “full fiscal austerity” 24/7.

    I respect your point earlier about not wanting years of persuading no-voters… but we could be looking at a much faster timetable thanks to the tories being tories and the EU vote. I would suggest we would be better approaching a snap referendum prepared with an organisation in place trying to drive up backing for a yes vote and keep the movement alive unencumbered by being a party of government.

  97. Tam Jardine says:

    Lochside and others

    Thanks for responding to my post from last night. It takes me a while but I get there in the end.

    Schrodingers Cat

    Robin would be a great choice if he would do it.

    But what is the real function? Crowd funded leafletting, social media dissemination, letter writing and organising meetings. Merchandising. If we are to crowd fund is it full time campaign organisers we need who can also speak to the public and are free to throw themselves into it?

    Robin has this big operation setup already so are we really just saying let’s all get behind Commonweal if we can persuade them to be the campaign?

    I don’t have answers – I am certain that the future victory will stem from this site.

  98. stephen says:

    Ian Smart has a brother called Alan ,also known as Citizen Smart.I met him a few times during the referendum ,he was a committed YES campaigner,great guy ,worked really hard during the campaign and still does,to achieve independence.Can’t fault the guy .

  99. Angra Mainyu says:

    Tam Jardine, I think what you say makes a lot of sense but not this: “When they renege folk like you and me get pissed off and the 55% no voters rationalise it…”

    I believe the 55% includes a lot of people who were hoodwinked by the Vow. I know one or two who can’t believe how stupid they were to fall for it. Actually, there are a lot of no-voters out there who are angrier than any of us on the Vow issue.

    I understand the logic behind the long game but I think it’s premised on the assumption that people will stay engaged. They won’t, not without encouragement. That’s what I meant by Sturgeon throwing us a bone.

    The only bone I hear of is this crap about an historic third term. That’s the sort of bone you’ll choke on. Who gives an eff about a historic third term? If I was willing to reduce life to meaningless piss like that, I would get into sport or something.

    And let me make myself clear on something while we are here. I have absolutely no loyalty to any politician or political party and that includes the SNP. Political parties are just means to ends, vehicles that ought to take us from A to B. If the SNP starts playing politics and talking of historic third terms, they can count me for one out.

    Loyalists on here would do well to remember that blindly and unquestioningly following politicians who claim to have the people’s interests at heart is what got us into this mess — and after 50 years of Scottish Labour, I’d expect people to know better.

    My instinct tells me this is a key moment. I wonder if we will look back in a couple of years and say “that was the beginning of the end of the Tartan Spring…”

  100. Macart says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    Can you point me in the direction of any establishment party that either voted for or endorses Full Fiscal Autonomy in the Scotland Bill debates?

  101. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi stephen.

    Something for you…

  102. stephen says:

    Thanks Briandoonthetoon,as I said Citizen Smart done a lot of good work during referendum,met him at a Yes meeting in Cumbernauld ,ended up through at the Kelpies in Falkirk.Happy memories .

  103. Tam Jardine says:

    Angra Mainyu 

    Good post. You wrote “Actually, there are a lot of no-voters out there who are angrier than any of us on the Vow issue.”

    I’ll take you’re word for it. Every no I come across just wishes the question had never been asked but I guess there are some folk who feel screwed over.

    The vow was a clever piece of nonsense to give patriotic Scots an out – a way to vote no and feel like they haven’t just bent over.

    I am just an SNP member who is talking about how to move us closer to independence. Being a member doesn’t preclude any other political activity. I wont get kicked out of the party for posting on Wings – and there is more to politics than a direct debit every month.

    Am I fucked off indyref 2 isn’t going to be the first line of the manifesto? Yes. Doesn’t mean it’s the wrong call.

    You wrote: “My instinct tells me this is a key moment. I wonder if we will look back in a couple of years and say “that was the beginning of the end of the Tartan Spring…”

    That may be the case. Or maybe the SNP win in May, England drags us out of Europe and Bojo or Osborne take over… and when the yes votes in 2 years are weighed they look back at Nicola’s move this weekend as a masterstroke – when she put the brakes on to let the tories run yes2 all by themselves.

    Interesting, if frustrating times.

  104. Tam Jardine says:

    Should read “patriotic” Scots.

  105. yesindyref2 says:

    @Tam Jardine
    I thnk McAlpine is good, but the problem is he won’t appeal to the conservative (small and big c) voters and that’s the ones that are going to need to be won over, most of a left inclination are already on the side of YES.

    What’s needed is charisma and cross-politics, able to create a vision of Scotland, but not a party political one. One with both socialism and capitalism, welfare and profit, safety blankets for those in need, and opportunity for those with ambition. But also someone with a passion for Scotland.

    Brian Cox would be a possibility but he moved from Labour to the SNP. It would probably be better to have someone belonging to no party, no particular ideology.

  106. Macart says:


    Interesting points by Tam and your good self.

    Good set of posts Tam by the by.

  107. Tam Jardine says:


    Yeah – the trouble is there is no one who will appeal to everyone.

    So maybe we need a board of 3 or 4 key figures to front the next campaign… Robin, Gordon McIntyre Kemp, Alan Bissett, Lesley Riddoch, Cat Boyd etc.

    Cover all the bases. Or maybe not.

    What about a group of four or five activists without public profile. Make it a paid role and get nominations from across the yes spectrum. Distill the entire movement down into 4 or 5 individuals. The absolute fucking cream.

    Then throw everything behind them. It was ordinary folk took us from 30% to 45%.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, Tam’s postings are well worth reading.

  109. Macart says:

    @Tam Jardine

    ‘a board’ Good idea.

    A mix of civic and public faces appealing across a broad spectrum sounds about right. Its the same approach favoured for the construction of a constitution, so why not YES2?

  110. Tam Jardine says:


    Thanks – straight back at you. I’m just trying to process all this. Been away for a week mulling over some of this stuff. Mostly been thinking how we should quietly absorb Northumberland into the New Scotland.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    Sounds good to me, a board not a main single player. Maybe spokespeople for different subjects. Yes, I like GMK too, knew him years ago. Solid, tryer, doesn’t give up, quite unflappable I think.

  112. Macart says:

    @Tam Jardine

    Well, the amount of times Hadrian’s wall has been noted as the ‘border’ in the past few years by the commentariat…

    Not quite all of Northumberland I know, but if they insist. 😀

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    I’d put in a word for Brian Cox though. Dundee, Scotland’s second YES city! His Jute Journey was very good and showed a real quiet passion. I can’t help thinking if he’d done A History Of Scotland (which I like anyway) instead of the passionless Neil Oliver, the first Ref would have been in the bag. He could have rivalled Huw Edwards with his The Story of Wales.

  114. yesindyref2 says:

    Probably want to include Michael Fry from as well, to help the balance of left and right.

  115. Macart says:


    Gordon MacKintyre-Kemp would be a good addition and Brian Cox (if available and willing), would be a superb addition. Elliot Bulmer for constitutional expertise could also be well worth an ask.

  116. Cherry says:

    This is quite a worthy crowdfund to put a couple of pounds to. It’s a great idea to make a video of ‘London Calling how the BBC stole the referendum’ then take it round Scotland to the people. Asking for £20,000 just about reached £5,000 come on guys this could be a game changer.

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    And here’s another idea for the new YES campaign. Instead of some rented plush glass and concrete corporate building with £100,000+ a year directors, buy a warehouse – there’s one for sale for £70,000 for 621 to 1331 square metres for instance in Townmill Road, Glasgow.

    Maybe bigger if the funds are there, with some acres. As well as using it to house other pro-indy groups at will, develop it up as a documentary, film and media editing centre, and then give it to the Scottish people for TV and film productions after the YES has been achieved.

  118. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, Elliot Bulmer would be a good addition. It would really confuse the BBC if when asking YES “take me to your your leader”, they were asked “Which one, what topic?”.

    And if they wanted to cover more than one topic in one program they’d have to have 2 or 3 YES guests.

  119. Angra Mainyu says:

    Yesindyref2, I was hoping you’d suggest this warehouse might be used to store the postal ballots…

    Macart, no I can’t. Not sure what ‘establishment’ means either nowadays or what your point is.

    Tam, the EU referendum is a stitch up. We can see guess that will play out already — “Europe is flawed but our economy needs it so badly… oh and look what jolly old Mr Cameron has succeeded in doing towards fixing it… We might as well stay in now because it’s more or less fixed… Good show, old chap!”

    Watching them drive that message home isn’t going to be much fun.

    I wonder how many of the 100,000 membership are going to renew their tickets…

  120. Macart says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    Establishment parties: That would be those in support of the Westminster system of government. Most typically Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrats.

    The point is Tam Jardine is bang on the money. Devolution is in the gift of Westminster and must of necessity require the popular agreement of all parliamentary parties and both houses to become legislation. The entirety of the Scottish electorate could vote for FFA tomorrow in a referendum and it wouldn’t happen without the willing say so of Westminster government.

    As for what May’s election was about? See page ten.

    Now, seeing as how we’ve had the first round of debates on the Scotland bill and pretty much most of the house of commons other than the SNP representation voted down the amendment proposing FFA, it seems highly unlikely that Scotland voting for more powers short of independence on its own is going to cut much mustard with the other 500 odd MPs who aren’t interested in Scotland’s constitutional settlement.

  121. yesindyref2 says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    Any chance you could send in Ahura Mazda for a blether? It might be more constructive!

  122. Cherry says:

    Good catch there @yesinderef2 now don’t go playing with him/her now!

    I spotted the inconsistent posts but wasn’t sure. Sneaky wee buggers aren’t they! Funny how they always get that wee bit too cocky .. well played!

  123. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s a constant problem. I think the thing is to take everyone as they are, but look for the constructive, rather than the destructive. Indy supporters want plans, progress, something to do. Talk to NO voters and hope next time they will vote YES. Keep going patiently until polls show enough consistent support.

    Last thing people who want to stay in the union want to see, is progress and plans.

  124. john king says:

    JLT says
    “Ach well …you got them, Rev. Another admission. Just like the one from the other day there when you found that wee gem within the Tory Manifesto where the Scottish Tories intended to amalgamate all the Police Forces in Scotland into one main force.”


    – Create single, national police force and single fire service.”


  125. john king says:

    Oops forgot this
    Party: Labour!

  126. Tackety Beets says:

    @Macart, Tam , Indyref2 , et tout

    Good posts , thank you.

    Sorry jumping in on your thread , may I add my vote to GMK , he was a NO type until a good few years back, when he had to do ” the sums ” ( can’t remember for what reason) that was when he realised the full implications and became a YES.

    He is good on TV etc as he deals in hard facts/ figures and not flappable as he knows his economics and is nae bad at getting it across .

    Pre ref there was a video , I may have it bookmarked on my PC, four business guys , Yessers, in front of a Hollyrood Parly Committee being drilled about the view of iScotland.

    There was JIM MColl , Mr MacDonald CEO of MacDonald Hotels and 2 others , can’t be sure on who they were , I do not think Mr Souter was there. The reason I remember JM and MacDonald Hotels is because they spoke VERY well indeed and had a great insight and understanding of the bigger picture from a business view.

    The CEO from ABerdeen Asset M would be good but they wanted to be publicly Neutral , understandably.

    Plenty famous folk like David Haymen and James McAvoy contributed before and would do so again I’m sure.

    Like you Tam , a want it bad. Av’ waited 50 years to arrive @ this point so a wee whiley longer to WIN will hae t di. Still it’s a scunner !

  127. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2 5.15 am

    Pretty much Dads. 🙂

  128. Posts are good as usual. Just one point that is of continual annoyance to me, probably not to anyone else.
    We are not, all of us, “ordinary people”. I much prefer the term, real people. Using the first phrase is merely part of the brainwashing the Scottish people have been subject to for over three hundred years, and still continues till this day.
    All of us have some talent, as is demonstrated in these pages every day. Together we can do it folks, hopefully in the near future.

  129. Angra Mainyu says:

    Indyref2: “Keep going patiently until polls show enough consistent support.”

    That’s a remarkable statement on about forty different levels. Just two days ago I described the SNP policy in terms just like that and followed it up by saying a second referendum would probably not be in the manifesto for 2016, how did you respond? You went potty.

    The trigger which involves waiting on Polls to change is fundamentally flawed. What polls? When? Who decides if they have changed enough? I could go on and on. Policy determined by polls is what you get when politics is conducted by cowards.

    The Sunday papers quite unanimously are either positive towards Sturgeon’s closing speech or indifferent towards it. That’s a good sign eh?

    I’m officially declaring this discussion over. It was fruitless. If the comments it generated are anything to go by, the rank and file on Wings are committed to 50 shades of sycophancy. I hope you are just daft young people who want to make friends or go on dates or something; at least that would explain it. The alternative, that you a representative of the independence movement as a whole, is too grim to contemplate.

    May God have mercy on your souls.

  130. wee folding bike says:

    Embarressment was an inspired choice.

    The song is about racial intolerance in the 1980s.

    Lee Thompson the sax player wrote the it. His sister had fallen pregnant out of wedlock. The father was black and members of Mr Thompson’s family were not happy about this. He was on tour and finding it difficult to keep in touch. The words reflect his family’s reaction, not Mr Thompson’s.

    In the end it all worked out when the baby was born.

    There is more to Madness than the nutty sound.

  131. Didn’t Nicola say the trigger for a second referendum would be a “gamechanger” event? What that would be none of us can predict, although I’m sure we could have a few inspired guesses.
    For me this actually occurred last month when Osbourne came north and announced £500m to be spent on Coulport/Faslane in preparation for the next generation of Trident.
    As someone who joined Scottish C.N.D in the year it was formed, 1958,for me this was the catalyst, and I would have called for an independence referendum the same day, never mind what the opinion polls said.
    Of course, with what’s left of my sensible head on, Partick Thistle supporter for over seventy years, I realise that wouldn’t work, so for one, I’m quite happy to trust our First Minister, and her judgement, on when the circumstances are right so that this time we succeed in our aim.

  132. Effijy says:

    Patience IS a virtue!

    I cannot see another Referendum with a good chance of winning until 2021. We still face the same issue of the UK media drowning the gullible with lies, distorting the reality, and withholding
    any information that may counter their biased scaremongering objectives.

    Every year that passes means that more and more people are able
    to use social media and find out what really is happening to their country.

    Youth is firmly on our side and they just need a little more time to mature into voters who will demand the right to forge their own future.

    I have every confidence the Tory elite will continue to hammer
    the rights and standard of living of the majority working classes, with their contempt of the Scots ensuring that we get the lion’s share of cuts economic restrictions.

    After 10 years of Tory abuse, backed by their Red Tory brothers, will see our cause flourish and bloom. We would also have the Ace
    up our sleeve when Cameron has to step down and be replaced by
    Boris or Gideon. How much of an incentive is that?

    Keep your powder dry and don’t waste your bullets when the enemy is still outwith your range.

    Our Day will come, just as it did in Ireland, India, Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, Jamaica, Egypt, Malta, South Africa, etc.

    Several 100,000,000 people can’t be wrong.
    Westminster need to stop raping your nations assets and live in their own cesspit living on their own corrupt resources.

  133. Tam Jardine says:

    Angra Mainyu 

    Well, that’s my feelings well and truly hurt. I’m trying to hold it together but the feelings I have right now could only be expressed using the medium off country and western.

    Can’t we be representative of the independence movement AND want to go on dates? That’s one of them there false dichotomies… adieu

  134. Big Jock says:

    Effigy.There is one way we could get another referendum and win. That’s if Slab embrace independence and campaign for it.

    However I suspect they are dumb enough to wait until someone turns the lights off.

  135. Angra Mainyu says:

    “After 10 years of Tory abuse, backed by their Red Tory brothers, will see our cause flourish and bloom”

    That more or less sums it up — Sturgeon’s strategy in a nutshell. If I was a young person that wanted a life, I’d read that and make plans to leave Scotland.

    Everybody that disagrees with me is wrong and for that reason I won’t be investing. I’m out.

  136. Effigy, I don’t feel you can put date on another referendum, and also I don’t think it matters who becomes the next leader of the tory party, and by default, Prime Minister. Same old, same old, no friend of Scotand..
    No, it’s as you mentioned, the asset stripping that bothers me. Of course, it’s been going on for centuries, and it continues to this day.
    The right moment will present itself to call Indy2, and this time hopefully we will prevail. Anyway, out to do some more canvassing, to convert more to our cause.

  137. Big Jock says:

    Alex correct. Osborne intends to vandalise Scotland while we remain trapped in the Union. Longannet shutting and no Steel industry, all in the space of a few months.

    This will continue. Osborne is Thatcher lite. The less assets Scotland has the weaker our position becomes. These Tories know what they are doing. Spending millions on nuclear power courting the Chinese. When Scotland is not going to have any nuclear power stations! So where is our share of the Chinese money for our renewables? Oh that’s right they cut that!

    You see everything they do is benefitting England and London. Yet still Brainless Scots think they are our friends. The Tories hate Scots but need our oil,nuclear Base and land mass. They are leeches who have taken over their host.

  138. Cherry says:

    @Angra Mainyu

    Don’t let the door smack you on the arse on the way out.

    Klaxon alert! See Yesindyref2 at 2.32am concern troll with nasty streak!

  139. Angra Mainyu says:

    Cherry, calling those who have better arguments than you trolls isn’t very original and I suspect most people on here who have engaged with me will agree that you’re just wrong about that. Actually, we haven’t had one single point of substance from you — not one. Do you have any opinion on anything we have discussed or are you just here to flirt with indyref2?

    There are websites out there devoted entirely to the task of meeting members of the opposite sex and the good news is you wouldn’t need to go through the charade of pretending you have an interest in politics. Let me know if you want me to provide some links, I’m always glad to help.

  140. yesindyref2 says:

    @Angra Mainyu
    Well, Angra Mainyu, variously described as “Angra Mainyu, the lord of deception, destroys or negates this world”, “the evil spirit of darkness, violence and death” or simply “destructive spirit”, nice to hear from you, to hear from you, nice.

    Good game.

  141. Angra Mainyu says:

    I would have thought that in the context of Scottish politics being destructive might be considered a boon. No matter. What’s in a name eh…

    Speaking of names though, indyref2, yours seems quite at odds with your stance of acquiescence and the general direction the anointed ones are taking us in. Would you like me to try and find you an alternative, I have a bunch of ideas?

  142. yesindyref2 says:

    @Angra Mainy
    No thanks, I prefer my own name and ideas. I’m not into “deceptive, destructive, evil, negative, dark, violent or deathly” names or ideas.

    I, on the other hand, am positive, or try to be.

  143. michael diamond says:

    Galamcennalath 16 oct 10.30. 20% of scots still voting liebor. I’m sure we all know who they are. Wearing their light blue jerseys and screamin….no surrender.

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