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Wings Over Scotland

History and legend

Posted on January 04, 2014 by

The Claim Of Scotland chapter 2.


“It may be replied that Scotsmen can have no cause for complaint since there is nothing to prevent them from writing history from their own point of view; if they fail to do so, this is their own fault.”

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    114 to “History and legend”

    1. naebd says:

      Some prominent English historians still do find it awful hard to be sparing when pointing out the shortcomings of Scotland, eh?

      I’m thinking of the famous ones that get plenty of BBC airtime.

      In fact that’s one problem of independence – there’s a risk that we might be exposed to historians that are afraid to explain to us how Scotland was and is rubbish. We might get big-headed.

    2. John Jamieson says:

      Excellent stuff. Please keep the PDFs coming Stu. I had a look on Amazon and some chancer is demanding £115 for the only copy available.

    3. naebd says:

      It is probably just an algorithm noticing at an upsurge in demand and tweaking the price accordingly.
      Stuff can get… weird on Amazon,2817,2384102,00.asp

    4. dinnatouch says:

      There are copies on Amazon US for under seven dollars, but add between $17 – $45 for shipping

    5. M4rkyboy says:

      Waiting for the next chapter is like some sort of week long striptease.

    6. gordoz says:

      Try ebay – I bought a copy earlier for £15

    7. dinnatouch says:

      Oh, and thanks for making this available Rev, much appreciated.

    8. naebd says:

      These PDFs are good enough for me – thanks for scanning and uploading.

    9. The Man in the Jar says:

      I am going to have to buy a hard copy and a copy of “Laptops for dummies” at the same time. I have downloaded part one onto my laptop now I am buggered if I can find it. 🙁

    10. bannock hussler says:

      @ M4rkyboy
      This is a bit tasteless as a follow-up, but then so is Alistair Darling. Your comment made me think about the nonsense he’s been spouting over on the Daily Record. A distracting week-long striptease involving him and the rest of Bed Together will eventually perhaps be the only way out for them. We could all then forget about serious matters as far as they were concerned, treat them properly as a comedy sideshow and get on with real life. 
      More to the point, it is very encouraging to see so much antagonism towards Darling and his duplicitous cronies in the Record’s comments. Those BT people really are making life very difficult for themselves: that is a sight to behold.
      Like nothing that H J Paton could have imagined having to write about, I am sure.

    11. Inbhir Anainn says:

      Of historical interest as well are the ‘Lockhart Papers’
      MEMOIRS and COMMENTARIES upon the Affairs of SCOTLAND from 1702 to 1715, by GEORGE LOCKHART, Esq. of CARNWATH.

    12. Dcanmore says:

      You can find this book with international resellers and shipped for less than £15.

    13. heraldnomore says:

      abebooks, and there’s a dealer in Edinburgh still with a copy

    14. Erchie says:

      If you can negotiate the Swedish website, there is one here for about £6

      a few copies available via abebooks

    15. M4rkyboy says:

      Aye Bannock,but you look forward to a striptease and its conclusion.Personally,i cannae wait for Darling to get off the stage.I just wish Stu would get on with it.Get the chapter out!Get the chapter out!get the chapter out for the lads!

    16. Glass Girl says:

      There is also this website that seems to be offering a downloadable copy. Although I haven’t tried it yet to see if its legit.

    17. liz says:

      WOW this makes fascinating reading,
      The author has so far been very astute in his observations.
      Thanks Rev Stu

    18. @Glass Girl :
      That website requires you to give them credit card information.
      I wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole.

    19. bannock hussler says:

      @ M4rkyboy
      Ha ha. He’ll not last long, they must be queuing up behind. Meantime, let him get his chapter out as well.

    20. GrumpoMcchief says:

      What happened to the original post with the front cover ?

    21. Glass Girl says:

      @Scots Renewables
      Ah right, in that case its probably pretty dodgy then. Thanks for letting me know.

    22. Gordon Smith says:

      to The Man in the Jar:
      The Laptop is the thing with the Keyboard and Screen. Can’t be hard to find!

    23. dave kemp says:

      glass girl and others : don’t follow links as suggested above – the web trail leads to which looks suspicious at best.

    24. bunter says:

      Joined Twitter as per Revs recommendation. Dunno if I have a clue what Im doing tho, but has anyone picked up on K Farquharson tweeting about another senior SLab politician coming out for YES, in tomorrows SOS?

    25. TamDoc says:

      What happened to the original post with the front cover?

      PS. It’s also listed in ‘recent posts’ under it’s Chapter 1 name ‘To our English brother’

    26. Stuart Black says:

      @TMITJ, I might be teaching you to suck eggs, if so I apologise, but if you right click on the Start menu and select Open Explorer, you will see a folder up in the left hand corner called Downloads, under Favourites and Desktop, it should be nestling safely in there.

    27. Chickenhawk 2 says:

      There is a copy of the Canadian book mentioned, Scottish Home Rule, by A Turner, in SF, US $30+ p&p

    28. AnneDon says:

      Can I just say, the Amazon seller isn’t actually being a chancer by increasing the price – they don’t want you to buy it!
      The seller is charged for each new listing. Often, when they get to the last item, the seller increases the price because they don’t want to sell the item until they get further stock! That way, the new stock doesn’t count as a new listing, so it doesn’t cost them anything to list it. In this days of small businesses and small margins,
      I was told this when I went to work for them. You’ll notice it doesn’t just happen to books, and it’s done by small sellers. 

    29. Chickenhawk 2 says:

      There is a copy of the Canadian book mentioned, Scottish Home Rule, by A Turner, in SF, US $30+ p&p. Update p+p $25.00

    30. naebd says:

      Scotland on Sunday: a cartoon poking fun at BT, piece by Alex Salmond, and Senior Labour Figure 4 Indy.
      It’s happened guys – SoS has gone over! THE TIPPING POINT!!

    31. antmcg says:

      For any one in Edinburgh, of Central libraries 2 copies, 1 has been withdrawn from service and the other is packed away until the Edinburgh and Scottish collection reopens at some point. I went over the road to the National Library of Scotland, who advised they have a copy, but there is criteria for joining, and of course their copy is reference only.
      I am quite happy to read the copy Stu is posting, but am wary of the copyright issue; especially with the amount of interest this site is getting from both sides of the debate.

    32. JLT says:

      This is the problem with Scotland. The vast majority of our people do not know their actual history of this country. I’m not talking about Robert the Bruce, Bannockburn, Culloden. No.
      What I am talking about is the things that they don’t know. I kid you not; most people in Scotland think the Scots are an Irish tribe. Bzzzzz. Wrong! There is no tribe called ‘Scots’. What they are talking about, is the Gaels, and they were only 1 of 5 tribes in Scotland at the time when they crossed Ulster and entered what would become Scotland. When they came over, did the Gaels immediately create the Kingdom of Scotland – NO!!!
      Ancient Scotland was made up of various Kingdoms. There was no Scotland. The Gaels set up the kingdom of Dal Riata in which is primarily some of the Highlands and Islands and the Western part of Strathclyde.
      There were other Kingdoms. The Kingdom of the Picts (Grampians / Fife). The Kingdom of Northumbria (Lothian’s and Borders). The Bretons in Dumfries and Galloway, and of course, the Vikings in the North.
      That means we have Gaels (Celtic X), Picts (Celtic Y), Vikings, Bretons and Anglos as well as other minor Celtic tribes.
      Primarily, the Kingdom of Scotland came into being when the Gaels and Picts made peace with each other and united to create the Kingdom of Scotland. Whereas the Gaels had a written language, the Picts didn’t, hence, the reason why Gaelic culture dominated in the end. The Picts weren’t wiped out. We ARE the Picts!
      Over time, the Lothian’s, the far North and other parts were eventually forged on to our ancient land.
      So, there never was a race called the Scots. The Scots are the amalgamation of all of the above (and then later enriched with the Normans (who were Warrior Vikings that had conquered Normandy in France). So, in effect, Scotland is made up of 6 different races. Whereas the Irish are Celtic, the Welsh are Breton, the English a mixture of Celt and Germanic races, it is the Scots that were the true melting pot! It is therefore with great surprise that a nation was even created from all those Kingdoms …and a wee nippy one at that!!
      Looking further at our pre-Union history; once we rid ourselves of English military rule after the wars of Independence, Scotland’s history become seriously volatile and quite dark!Clans and major families vying for power as they looked at the Scottish Throne with ambitious eyes (seriously, the books, ‘A Game of Thrones’ is heavily based on Scottish History). Stuarts, Black Douglas’s, Red Douglas’s, MacDonald’s, MacGregor’s, Campbell’s, etc …all vying to do each other in and become the main power in the Kingdom. As this is all going on, Scotland is fighting England continually with one war after another.
      Then we get to Mary Queen of Scots, as well as Knox and the Reformation. We have her son, James VI and his Union of the Crowns. Then there is Charles the 1st (son of King James VI and I of Britain) and his attempt to convert the Scots to Episcopalianism. This leads to a bitter 3 way religious fight in Scotland with Presbyterianism (Scottish Protestism), Catholicism, and Episcopalianism (English Protestism) all at each others throats.
      Then we have the Killing Times, Cromwell, Charles the 2nd, the Glorious Revolution, William of Orange, the Darien tragedy …and then, of course, Act of Union…
      This is one of the key problems with the referendum for the Nationalists. Our people don’t know their history! If they did, then seriously, we could have the referendum tomorrow and we would win easily by 90%. You ask people about Darien, the Killing Times, or Charles the 1st and they will just look at you as if you were growing a horn out of your head. People have been told (thanks to those supporters of the Union) that everything after the Wars of Independence (1314) to the Act of Union (1707) is just plain old rubbish history.  They will tell you that nothing much happened in Scotland. Just daft Clansmen living in hovels, fighting each other in the north, while Central Scots lived a piss-poor existence. At this point, I really, really want to swear, but I won’t! It just angers me when I hear that drivel about pre-Union history!
      Guys, I know I have said this before, and some of you might be a bit fed up with me saying it, but seriously, read books such as Magnus Magnusson’s ‘Scotland’ (brilliant book) or Arthur Herman’s ‘The Scottish Enlightenment’. These are great books, and go into great detail about Scotland before the Union. Magnus Magnusson explains in easy detail about the major family feuds and why some clans detest others …even to this day! Another good book is Neil Oliver’s ‘A History of Scotland’. Very straightforward and easy book to read.
      Anyway, enough ranting! A very interesting read, Rev. Copying and storing each copy that is posted. Cheers for that!

    33. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Stuart Black
      Cheers mucker. That was a bit of a help. I had been looking in my “library” but hadn’t click on favorites “star” to access dropdown. So I have found my downloads. There are lots of things that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY MEAN. Sadly no book download but I have found my long lost gas and lecky bill. Hurra! 😆 

    34. antmcg says:

      For any one in Edinburgh, of Central libraries 2 copies, 1 has been withdrawn from service and the other is packed away until the Edinburgh and Scottish collection reopens at some point. I went over the road to the National Library of Scotland, who advised they have a copy, but there is criteria for joining, and of course their copy is reference only.
      I am quite happy to read the copy Stu is posting, but am wary of the copyright issue; especially with the amount of interest this site is getting from both sides of the debate.,_Designs_and_Patents_Act_1988 implies this is not exactly legal 🙁

    35. Jingly Jangly says:

      I read something recently that stated that DNA and archaeological  evidence was pointing to the Scots being indigenous to Scotland, same as the Picts.

    36. JimW says:

      Fascinating stuff. Can’t wait for the next instalment.

    37. Monty Carlow says:

      There is an interesting observation at page 43,  that even before the Union of Parliaments, with just the Union of Crowns in place, but coupled with the executive power of the monarch at that time, “the Scots had the worst of all worlds:  They were expected to fight in England’s wars, but to have no say in foreign policy”.  
      It seems that not much has changed in this respect.  However, Better Together now refer to this as the “best of both worlds”, “punching above our weight” etc…

    38. Seanair says:

      Against my better judgement I clicked on SOS to look at what you are claiming. Just the usual anti-SNP crap cartoon, nothing from Farquarson, nothing by AS.
      Do you have a special method of getting into SOS or am I just thick?

    39. Silverytay says:

               Snap , I did the same and the cartoon was from December .

    40. Jingly Jangly says:

      Had a look at hootsmon site, this by AS seems to be new

    41. twenty14 says:

      I just checked on Twitter ( even though I don’t have account ) and it states another Senior Labour figure is heading our way by K Farquharson

    42. Andrew Morton says:

      I know you all like a laugh, George Foulkes has just tweeted this,
      “@GeorgeFoulkes: @KennyFarq If you started to look in more detail at the Federal Option some of us are trying to advance you might have a less arid debate.”

    43. mato21 says:

      Wings the crowdfunding ect and newsnet get a good write up for their stand against the media bias

    44. Silverytay says:

      twenty 14
                      Lets hope so , perhaps at long last the dam is starting to breach .

    45. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      bunter at 8.32
      Last week LFI were hinting at two such conversions, one being described as a “game changer”

    46. twenty14 says:

      Did Scottish Skier not ” predict ” this just before the end of last year ?
      if so he’s our new ” Brahan Seer “

    47. Wilma Watts says:

      To JLT.
      We were not taught Scottish history in schools, that is a fact. I always wondered why I was so ignorant of historical events until recently when I was speaking to a gentleman a bit older than myself who had been brought up in Shetland. He explained that until 1948 Scottish history was taught, after that year it became British history. 

    48. mato21 says:

      Could this be true?
      Scottish Secretary Carmichael reveals ‘I’m thinking about quitting Westminster … I can’t be in politics forever’

    49. twenty14 says:

      If it is true – the dams not crumbling its feckin ruptured big style with no hope of plugging

    50. sneddon says:

      Jingly Jangly- Can you reference the research that suggests scots are original aboriginies to Scotland.  Scotland didn’t exist as a distinct country until 1000 yrs ago approx.    If you are reffering to the Moffat book, the incidence of DNA types does not record when that DNA arrived just inferences based on incidences of  specific genotypes in Scotland.  The Scots as a distinct race based on genotype?  That’s not backed by the evidence unless you count thatweb handed lot in East Fife! (puts on helmet and ducks)  Good book by Alistar Moffat tho’

    51. Ye’ll need mair than a helmet fir protection if me or ony o’ ma fellow Methil folk catch up wi’ ye ya bass!

    52. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T slightly
      Watching the news on TV one night I saw an item on Afghanistan. It featured a lorry load of armed Afghanistani in the north of Afghan. They mostly had beards and facial hair with a lot of ginger in it. They looked like they had just come out of a Glasgow pub.
      I’m inclined to believe that the Scots came from Asia minor and round the Med to get to Ireland and then on to Kintyre and Dalriada. As they expanded across Scotland they brought a written language (Gaelic) which predates Latin which quite quickly became the language of commerce and then the language of the mercantile classes in the land they had arrived into. The Picts didn’t go away. The just started talking Gaelic in much the same way as lowland scots started talking inglis centuries later. The pentatonic scale used in piping is Asian in origin.

    53. sneddon says:

      Sorry Dave  but anywhere that sells red pudding suppers scares me 🙂

    54. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Wizney ginger oot a boatle. Rid heidit wis what ah meant

    55. Ken500 says:

      Scots are not a distinct race, they are mongelised just like very other nation.

      Just as well, otherwise they would be inbred. Don’t go there.

      Console one’s sel. The seed has spread far and wide.

      World Peace \/ Everyone in the world is descended from a few folk in Africa – Genetically proven everyone in the world has a prick of the same DNA. We are all cousins. That doesn’t mean we want to stay in the same house,or wear the same type of clothes or eat the same food (if there is some available). Depended on other factors mainly climate, weather, climate and weather. Variety adds Spice. Spice is quite Nice. Yum, Yum.

    56. Douglas Guy says:

      Carmichael isn’t as stupid as he looks.  He knows whatever happens his career has peaked. And he was promoted to his “level of incompetence”.  His drubbing by Sturgeon and his party’s reaction to it must have been soul crushing.  
      This was it for the Libdems.  At 2015 Westminster election they will be annihilated as the floating antipolitics vote goes to ukip and the tactical vote punishes them for perceived comprises with the Conservatives. It’s back to real life jobs or clinging on to marginals by their fingernails.  And that’s if we vote NO.  A YES and he’s gone too.  If he can hold his seat.  With lifelong liberals like defecting to the SNP even that isn’t a good bet.
      If HE ISN’T considering his options,  he should be.

    57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Surely you mean “mongrelised”. 

    58. Name (required) says:

      There is only one race!
      the Human race.

    59. Molly says:

      Wilma Watts, I recently watched a French historical/romance film. I m embarrassed to say, I knew Mary Queen of Scots spoke French but I never realised how powerful or close to the Crown (in other words the power ) the Guise dynasty had. Put it in to perspective( after a further bit of reading and 30 years after leaving the school), what the threat was and it wasn’t her good looks. 

      JLT you are so right about not knowing our history, without any background, the stuff we were taught appears straight out a Ladybird book.

    60. Ken500 says:

      Except the Alkie inbreds. Definitely a different strain. Inherited. Need some special TLC.

    61. Andrew Morton says:

      John Mulvey, the ex-leader of Lothian Regional Council.

    62. Ken500 says:

      Mary Queen if Scots was brought up in France, she was betrothed to the Dauphin at a young age. Lived in the French court., as they did in those days. Young marriage, often early death. Her mother was one of the ist wife’s of Henry Vlll. (Can’t remember her name) Mother was replaced by a young thing, became the Dowager Queen lived in a different Castle/Palace. That’s why they needed a few of them. She died a natural death, lucky escape. That’s why Mary was Elizabeth half sister. Same father. Henry Vlll.

      The Dauphin died young – teens. Mary returned to Scotland. Elizabeth 1 had England. Elizabeth never married. Mary had James V1 Scotland – 1st of England – the Union of the Crowns. Mary was very mademoiselle. The conflict involved her keeping her Catholisim.Father Henry had split from Rome etc. Established a separate Church in England. Mary was expected to convert, she wouldn’t. Scotland was Protestant?

      The Scottish/English/French nobility often inter-married. More an act of convenience to conserve Dynasties/estates/lands, through marriage. Sometimes to solve conflict. Trade was important. All were trading Nations.

    63. Andrew Morton says:

      You may be confusing Mary Queen of Scots with Mary I of England.

    64. laukat says:

      Really enjoy this website and as a supporter of Independence fully appreciate the good work done by Rev Stu and many others in articles and the forums. In particular would really love to see an article by Scottish_skier on how the different polling companies are producing such a spread. I also have a a couple of questions/thoughts as follows

      The SNP seem to be doing the dance of the seven veils with the latest Panelbase poll can we expect the last veil to be a lead in the big question?

      Also appreciate that its unlikely that UKIP’s polling levels will be unlikely to convert into MP’s but if it did  could we be looking at a Conservative and UKIP Coallition? Would this not be the ultimate display of the democratic deficit?

    65. Ken500 says:

      # Mary Queen of Scots – gibberish predictive text. Oh no.

      Carmichael might try to come over to the other side. Leave the Dark, and step out into the light. Frightening,

    66. twenty14 says:

      Former Labour Council leader John Mulvey will vote YES- and so it begins

    67. Ken500 says:

      Falkland Palace. Loch Leven. Beheaded.

    68. twenty14 says:

      Wait for latest BBC headline – no one defects from YES Campaign to Better Together. Alex Salmond accused of telling truth and not misleading Scottish Public

    69. Ken500 says:

      Confused with other Mary

    70. dadsarmy says:

      I’m going to go for being overlords of the Germans, getting kicked out while hungover, heading south and sacking Rome, taking to the boats in a drunken stupour, landing in Spain, too much sun, heading round to France, got bored, went off and got shipwrecked off Cornwall, used up the easy to get tin, headed round to Wales, set up a global maritime trading corporation, recognised the invading Saxons. took the ferry across to Ireland, liked it and invented a very dark beer, day-tripped to the Isle of Man where they became bikers, learned to ride on water and ended up in Kintyre, ripped up the roads up and down the west coast where they can be seen to this day.
      Curious that spuggie is a sparrow in Scots and Speug in German. There are others but I forget.

    71. Molly says:

      Ken500, in a ‘there is so much I dont know although I might pass this everyday way’, someone told me (Little France where the old Edinburgh Royal site was )named after the Hugenots who came to Scotland. The whole big picture of who the Hugenots were and the Guise family (plus all the religious stuff) must have been filed under “nothing relevant happened in relation to Scotland 1314-1707” Scottish o’level.

    72. Ken500 says:

      Sometimes Gaelic (don’t understand it – but watch Caesar! TV), looks in print as though some phrases are conjegated like French/Spanish. They say Latin is the base of many European languages. Scots often get mistaken, vocally, for Irish or German and Dutch in Europe. The hard R.

    73. Ken500 says:

      @ Dadsarmy 5 January 2014 at 12.45 am

      That’s some ramble, take a camper van the next time. It’s a wonder you managed to find your way home.

      : – }

    74. Barontorc says:

      You are very welcome to the side of logic, compassion and common sense John and bring all your friends. We need to do this for our children and our children’s children, as much as for common decency and social justice now. 

    75. Ken500 says:

      John Mulvey – Brilliant

      A real Socialist

      When will Tommy Sheridan get adminished?

      He fought Thatcher, the Poll Tax and got warrant sales abolished. A true Socialist. The Unionists stitched him up.

    76. Derek says:

      re:- tribes
      So “1066 and all that” was right regarding the picts/scots/irish?

    77. Albamac says:

      Easier to read versions of foreword and first two chapters.  I’ll do more as Stu releases them.
      Chapter 1:
      Chapter 2:
      If possible I’ll do the whole book but can’t do that until all of the available chapters are in, so a bit of a wait.

    78. Albamac says:

      OOPS!  Forgot to insert the links
      Chapter 1
      Chapter 2

    79. Adrian B says:

      Thanks Caesar!mac,
      I can actually read those links. 😉

    80. john king says:

      “We have catched Scotland:and we’ll never let her go”
      We will see, we will see.

    81. john king says:

      Interesting to note that so far the Labour men who have come out in support of independence are retired, they have nothing to lose, so it would follow that the current MP’s see only their own interests being served by a no vote rather that the general good,
      sic a parcel o rouges in a nation?

    82. Holebender says:

      I’ve just started reading chapter 2 and I was immediately struck by this;
      a nation is inclined to dwell on its past when it is denied a future.
      Is this why the unionists are constantly harking back to the World Wars and all the rest of it, because they know their union has no future?

    83. Ronnie says:

      Much appreciated, many thanks.

    84. Tamson says:

      A former council leader hardly constitutes a ‘senior Labour figure’. To justify that description, it has to be a prominent MP, MSP, or elder statesman figure like McLeish.

    85. JLT says:

      Derek says:
      re:- tribes
      So “1066 and all that” was right regarding the picts/scots/irish?
      I know there is a book called ‘1066 and all that’, but have never read it (nor do I want to as I believe there will be no real depth research or analysis within it. From what I have seen, the author says ‘Scots’ came from Ireland’, well ….BZZZZ….WRONG! It was the Gaels who came from Ireland).

      As I said, if it were Scots, then why was it, that when they settled in the West Coast, they did not call the new land Scotia, Scotta, Scotland, Scottietoon or something that resembles ‘Scots-blah!’. Instead, it was called Dal Riata, and even that name meant ‘Riata’s Share’ (Riata’s share of the land).

      As to the Picts, well, I can’t confirm if they came from Ireland, but I could easily say that they came to the North of Britain by migrating up through England. I’m sure I have read that the Gaels and Picts are two very different types of Celtic tribes (so that is why I rule out the Picts coming from Ireland at any point, and why I called them Celtic X and Celtic Y). Even the Britons are a Celtic group and could be considered Celtic Z.

      Once they arrived in Britain, the Celtic tribes obviously branched off in different directions for a good few thousand years. One branch went to Ireland, while the others marched either North or some headed West to Wales or Devon-Cornwall.

      As to the book ‘1066 and all that’ – in other words, it’s a book with key dates and a couple of lines under each date, and I wouldn’t trust a thing in it. You and I could rattle off key dates, but in the end, it means hee-haw if half of the info is wrong.)
      The thing is Derek, how many people do you know, who believe that the Scottish race are an Irish tribe. A bloody lot, I’ll bet! and it’s nonsense. The truth is, that the Gaels who settled in the West were just one tribe. The Britons (Dumfries) or Anglo’s (Lothian’s) didn’t come from Ireland, and we can rule out the Vikings. We all know where they came from!

      As Dave McEwan Hill and Ken500 point out, we are an ancient ethnically-mixed nation. We are not unique, nor are we descended from a single race bloodline.
      What I will say next is not a dig at the good old English people, for I blame the media and past historians on this one. The English people are also caught up in the race myth nonsense! They have been told that they are Anglo-Saxons, and even then, there are many who perceive themselves to be just Anglo! The truth is, that England to a largish degree, is also a Celtic nation!

      Before the Romans, the tribes in England were Britons (as said, another Celtic group). Then came the Romans (who brought races from all over the Empire with them. Many of these people stayed or intermingled with the tribes, even once the Romans left), and even as the Romans were pulling out, the first wave of Anglo’s and Saxon’s were arriving. They pretty much dominated the East Coast of England. Finally came the Vikings and Normans (northern Germanic).

      So, as you can see, even England is made up of various races, and yet, they perception is, that they are of just two Germanic tribes (Anglo-Saxon). They are probably half and half; Germanic and Celt, and yet, very similar as to what happened in Scotland, the Germanic culture prevailed over England, just as the Gael culture prevailed over Scotland, and hence why Pictish culture disappeared in Scotland, even though in a very real sense, the Picts didn’t disappear, for the Scottish people are the descendants of the Picts, Gaels, Britons, Anglos, Vikings and Normans. We are one people made up of 6 major races.

    86. The Man in the Jar says:

      Not any old council, Strathclyde Regional Council. In its time the population of SRC was 2.5 million and was responsible for more coastline than the nation of France.

    87. sneddon says:

      Holebender- I think your onto something. I lived in Engalnd for 20 years and all I ever heard was folk banging on about the past, WW2, the empire, Agincourt and bloody WW2.  ‘ As the song says “No future and england’s dreaming”

    88. naebd says:

      Seanair – maybe the website hadn’t updated yet – I saw these SoS cartoons/articles on the twitter. 

    89. heraldnomore says:

      O/T Overheard in silly hours of the night.
      “The only hope for England in Australia lies with Andy Murray when the tennis starts.”  So spake the cricket commentator on BBC R5LSX.
      This sparked discussion on nationality of the tennis start himself.  Apparently he became the ‘darling of England’ and very much both Scottish and British when lifting Olympic gold for Team GB.
      There then followed a discussion with Aussie summariser, 3rd generation on the convict isle but with ancestry from Northern Ireland, confirming that he would of course be Scots again when he lost. To which said English commentator agreed.
      Still they may have to wait just as long to regain The Ashes as they have done already and will continue to do, for an English winner at Wimbers.  I’m sure Andy will be busting a gut to win in Australia, for England. 

    90. david says:

       As the song says “No future and england’s dreaming”
      so true, and a terrific song

    91. Kalmar says:

      Good stuff..
      O/T The Guardian has a big interview with some playwright, who is supportive of independence,

      posted from phone, hope it’s readable.

    92. Turnip_ghost says:

      This book is amazing. I was reading the pdf file at work the other day and when I looked up saw someone had placed a “yes” sticker in the staff bunk. Tickled me 😀

    93. Papadocx says:

      Why does an alien foreign country (England) want my country? Why does it want to erase my countries history, and substitute it with England’s. 

    94. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “A former council leader hardly constitutes a ‘senior Labour figure’.”

      I think you’re confusing the words “senior” and “well-known”. He’s “senior” by any reasonable definition of the word.

    95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Interesting to note that so far the Labour men who have come out in support of independence are retired, they have nothing to lose, so it would follow that the current MP’s see only their own interests being served by a no vote rather that the general good,
      sic a parcel o rouges in a nation?”

      FFS, John! Random apostrophes, no paragraph breaks, lines starting with lower-case letters, PARCEL OF BLOODY ROGUES, and you haven’t even spelt “rogues” right. Why not throw in a couple of CITE tags and really make my head explode?

    96. Paul says:

      We are only five days into 2014 and the unionist fear is getting more tangible. This is what happens when you publish dodgy polls when we in the yes camp know that it is a lot closer and if the comments sections are anything to go by then we are winning.

    97. yerkitbreeks says:

      “It is bad enough to say that Scotland did not exist as a nation, but it is still worse to pretend that it never did” reminds me of utterances in Jeremy Paxman’s critique of Robert Burns

    98. Dorothy Devine says:

      OOh! I’m getting scared to write anything now – how fierce Rev.
      Aberdonian born and bred those wee birds were always “speugs”.
      Caesar!mac another thanks.

    99. Malc says:

      They were always “speugs” in Ayrshire as well

    100. Jingly Jangly says:

      Sneddon, no it wasn’t based on Moffats book which I have read and for the like of me I cant remember where I read it, but it was fairly recently in a fairly recently published book.
      I must have got it from the Library as I have searched through my  book collection and cant find any newish books which I have recently read. Will check in the Library and find out what books I have borrowed recently!!!
      Certainly there is growing evidence both DNA and Archaeological that the Celts are indigenous to what is now called Great Britain. How they got there after the Ice retreated is neither here or there but we were always taught that the Celts didn’t arrive in Britain until 500bc. My thoughts are that a “race” which did start invading “Britain” around 410ad put this about so that people thought that it was normal to invade other countries!!!
      Incidentally in case anybody is put out by the use of the name “race” to describe what are now known as the English, I am reading a book just now called Brodick Old and New published in the thirties and the author uses the term “race” to describe a clan or family.

      Dave McEwan Hill
      Gaelic was never a written language until the Celtic Church monks used the Latin Alphabet to transcribe biblical and mythological legends.
      Hope everything is ok with formatting this post, its the first longish one since the new dictates and my hands are shaking as I post this….

    101. Albert Herring says:

      @Jingly Jangly
       If your hands only shook a wee bit more, they could have put in double carriage returns!

    102. Albamac says:

      Adrian B, Ronnie and Dorothy
      Thanks for the thanks!  Just brushing up on my typing. 🙂

    103. Andrew Morton says:

      You should read ‘1066 and All That’, it’s a very funny book.
      Re Little France, I was born and brought up there and it was named after Mary Queen of Scots’ French servants who lived there when she was staying at Craigmillar Castle. When I was a boy there was a rotting oak tree down by the bridge with a plaque saying it had been planted by Mary.

    104. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Hope everything is ok with formatting this post”

      No, it’s not, as you can hopefully see by looking at it.

      The rule isn’t hard to remember: either TWO carriage returns after a sentence or NONE. Never, ever one. It’ll look weird and over-spaced when you’re writing it, but the published comment will be fine.

    105. BuckieBraes says:

      Rev, I think you’re on a hiding to nothing with this comment formatting thing. You’re just going to wear yourself out.
      I’m reminded of that old public information film about lane discipline on motorways, featuring three cartoon blokes, ranging from one who knew the rule about not hogging the outside lane, but chose to ignore it, to one who didn’t apply the rule because his head was full of blue sky and birdies.
      You have something similar here. Your instructions aren’t really sinking in with some folk, while others may be deliberately ignoring them to wind you up. This last group is nothing but a parcel of rogues.

    106. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Rev, I think you’re on a hiding to nothing with this comment formatting thing. You’re just going to wear yourself out.”

      Well, no, the opposite. I don’t think anyone can complain that they haven’t been warned, so in future I’ll just be hitting “Trash” a lot more, which is much less effort than individually editing lots of posts to make them readable. If folk don’t listen, their comments will simply go in the bin, and on their own heads be it.

    107. thomas says:

      @ jingly jangly
      I would have to disagree with you there my friend. The Celts are something of an interest of mine.
      The Celts are simply the first people north of the alps to emerge into recorded history , and they certainly are not a race ( i appreciate you didn’t coin the phrase ), more differing groups of people originating at the head of the Danube and spreading to Ireland in the west , Spain , northern Italy to Galatia in Turkey in the east. Tall blond , short and swarthy , these people were united in language and culture .
      The word “Celt” is often erroneously described as being coined by Edward Lhuyd in  the 17th century. The romans and Greeks called them celtoi 2000 years ago , but the insular celts of Britain and Ireland didn’t use the name as far as we know , though undoubtedly they were part of the celtic people.
      The word  celt may derive from “ceilt “ , similar to “kilt” , meaning concealment to describe their pre Christian custom of not writing their history , law , etc down though they were not illiterate. Prior to the latin alphabet they used the “ogham “ alphabet when writing , used to write gaelic or very ancient irish found throughout Britain and Ireland.

      People have inhabited these islands since the end of the last ice age , we know there were farming communities in Ireland 3000 years ago , but the original celts came here around 1500 years ago.
      The irish have ancient books called the book of invasions , leabhar ghabhala erinn , which record in legend the various migrations of the celts to Ireland , whence the original celts who came to these islands were thought to be goidelic whom the Scots and Irish and Manx come from , although this is sometimes questioned.
      The celts you mention thought to have started arriving in Britain around 600 bc were the brythonic celts , whom the welsh come from and who gave Britain its name ( roman bastardisation of prydein).
      Best wishes pal

    108. Jingly Jangly says:

      Agree with most you say, however Ogham predates the latin based Gaelic writing by only a couple of hundred years or so.  There is DNA evidence to suggest that the Celts were in these islands long before 1500bc. I noticed about 20 years ago historians started calling the stone age people “Proto Celts” as they appeared to be the same culture but nobody would make the link that the Celts were Indigenous to the Islands of Great Britain. However  DNA evidence according to a growing number of historians including Neil Oliver in a BBC program claim that the stone age people and the later Celts were one and the same.
      Regarding the book of invasions, some people claim the Fir Boig (Original rulers of Ireland)were from the Belgae which were of the Gaul Celts, and therefore Brythonic. It matters little all I am/was saying is that there is growing evidence that the Celts of whatever branch were Indigenous to the Islands of Great Britain. 
      There you go think I got my line breaks ok that time

    109. Tamson says:

      @The Man in the Jar, 9:36am:
      the Yes convert announced today was John Mulvey, former head of Lothian Regional Council. Charles Gray, former head of Strathclyde, came out as a Yes back in April. Even in his case, I’m not sure the term “senior” was viable except in the “citizen” sense. How influential are these guys in modern Labour Party circles, really?
      As I said, I don’t think these sorts of converts are a big fillip to the Yes campaign. It’s not that they aren’t welcome, of course, but neither are they “game changers” by any stretch of the imagination.

    110. muttley79 says:

      Sir Charles Gray did not back the Yes campaign last April.  It was at the very end of last year surely?  I don’t mean to be rude but when you are up against the substantial resources of the British state, and a compliant MSM, should we really be putting down the endorsements to the Yes campaign from respected former SLAB elected members?  Anything that gives the Yes campaign a morale boost has to be good.  Just because you have not heard of them, does not mean that they are insignificant in the Labour movement in Scotland.  

    111. thomas says:

      Cheers Jingly Jangly
      Don`t think we are that far apart .
      I think the dna evidence shows that the Celts like later peoples were a ruling elite imposed upon the native people who were here before them. Possibly you may be right though as it is so far back its impossible to know for certain.
      I think some of the Anglo Brit historians and archaeologists actually dropped all reference to the “Celts” at one point calling them  “ Iron Agers” instead to some ridicule around the world.
      What matters as far as we are concerned is that Scotland , as far back as scholastic research can penetrate , was “Celtic “ in speech and many customs down to around the reformation. Celtic Scotland is the nucleus of the nation we have today.
      People tend to not know this due to the fact that much of Scotland`s history was lost or ruthlessly destroyed , which is why historians have scant native Scottish documents to go with and rely on Irish , Welsh , English , French and Scandinavian sources to corroborate much of our surviving myths legends and archaeology.
      Don`t know if you have read it but i recommend “ The Celtic Place Names Of  Scotland “ by pro. W. Watson.
      Best wishes pal.

    112. Tamson says:

      @muttley79 – apologies, I was going by a Google search which brought up the Scotsman story about Gray saying he was for Yes. For some weird reason Google dates the story as 11th April 2013. It’s clearly from November. Maybe this is another of the Scotsman’s website fiddles?
      As to whether I’ve heard of Charles Gray or not, I certainly do remember him as a major player in local government – over 20 years ago. Which is kind of the point, really.
      I just found Kenny Farquaad’s hype to be over the top.

    113. muttley79 says:

      Fair enough.  I see Dennis Canavan’s fingerprints on these conversions to Yes from SLAB.  Can only be a good thing for the months ahead.  Dennis will have many contacts within SLAB, we are seeing the results. 

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