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Wings Over Scotland

Grapes are the sourest fruit

Posted on October 06, 2018 by

Tens of thousands of people had a party in Edinburgh today.

They caused no trouble, spat on no priests, and everyone involved had a ball.

And for some reason that really, really upset Unionists.

Although in fairness, the ultra-Yoon hardcore had a great turnout too.

If you’re having a wee drink in an Edinburgh pub tonight with some of the people who came from all over Scotland to show their belief in their country, spare these poor unhappy souls a kind thought, would you? They’ve had a rough day.

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    1. 06 10 18 20:56

      Grapes are the sourest fruit | speymouth

    217 to “Grapes are the sourest fruit”

    1. hackalumpoff says:

      Grapes-are-the-sourest-fruit – but the wine is so sweet.

    2. winifred mccartney says:

      Wonderful day, wonderful weather, wonderful people all enjoying the togetherness with kindness and care for one another.

      Thank you to everyone who organised it and to the many more joining every day. You can only feel sorry for those who have to eat sour grapes but they can always come and join us. You’re very welcome.

    3. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It must be horrible living with such bitterness and envy eating away at ye day after day…


    4. Helena Brown says:

      Spare a thought for these bitter and twisted people, not one.
      How does it feel to be so ashamed of your country that you do it down for another. One which is robbing it blind.
      Shame on all of them.
      Will someone tell that idiot holocaust denier that his filthy union flag jacket is actually an insult to the flag he purports to support.

    5. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I’ve never ever seen Duncan Hothersall at any of these marches.

      Surely they’re great opportunities for him to find converts. But then, he’d have to acknowledge how friendly and hassle-free these events are, and that wouldn’t suit his preferred narrative i.e. that we’re all ‘dirty xenophobes’ who would tear him limb from limb.

      In other words, he’s a liar *and* a shitebag.

    6. Return of the mac says:

      Just back from the most sensational walk down through the Royal Mile past Holyrood and we were permitted into a large park with a few friends. The heat is on.

    7. Ruglonian says:

      We I *happen to be* having a wee drink in an Edinburgh pub right now with one or two folk, and those poor deluded sowels are far from the minds of everyone who has been invigorated by today’s spectacle 😀

    8. Cactus says:

      Cheers to ye Rev.

      Cheers to Wings Over Scotland!

      Cheers to Scotland xx.

    9. Drekken11 says:

      Um Rev….

      You appear to have included the Tom Gallagher screenshot twice….

    10. Bob Mack says:

      The fear is palpable. Things are changing and they know it.

      They are afraid of change which deprives them of the right to feel somehow superior to the rest of us. They follow a cult of Queen,country and supremacy inbred over centuries and passed down by father to son and mother to daughter.

      Times are changing in a secular society no longer completely bound by religious allegiance. Only the hardcore remain.

      They should be afraid,because Scotland is ready to move on with them or without.

    11. Morag says:

      I don’t think we’ll ever know how many were on this one.

      Some guy on stage announced that the “official police estimate” was >100,000. The actual police estimate seems to be 20,000. I don’t think the 100,000 estimate is right but there were way more than 20,000. Everyone agreed there were more people than at Glasgow and reliable counts of the indylive footage at Glasgow came in around 45,000.

      This time the route was short and there were an awful lot of people and I doubt there will be a film of the entire procession passing one place as there was at Glasgow. Maybe 50,000? Maybe 60,000? But with different factions apparently making up numbers to suit their own agendas, who knows?

    12. sassenach says:

      Nothing these BritNats say about the march will affect my feelings of euphoria at today’s massive event.
      Proud to have been there!

    13. frogesque says:

      I’m in that photy!

      Part way up the hill net to the Yes Glenrothes and Yes Kenoway banners.

      Only a few thousand there? Yer airse is on fire!

    14. Illy says:

      Interestingly, the HES ruling was initially that *employees* of HES could not be obviously political while acting as employees.

      Since HES is some form of Civil Service bureau, that is entirely reasonable.

      Someone in the organisation has extrapolated that past its purpose. Hence the bullshit about political usage of their property.

    15. Return of the mac says:

      Just back from a wee walk down the Royal Mile with a few friends. We were “allowed” into a large park at the end of our walk. Truly sensational. BBC, Blue and red tories be afraid, be very afraid

    16. doug_bryce says:

      The infamous Edinburgh Councillor Scott Arthur estimated to media there were 20K people there… (this is the same guy who tried to close down WoS you tube channel then lied).

      Aye right.
      Incredible scenes in video below

    17. Morag says:

      That’s three of the marches I’ve been on this year and the weather has been fantastic every time. (OK, Glasgow in May was a wee bit overcast but it was dry and reasonably bright.) Everybody is so friendly and happy and you meet such lovely people. The cops never have anything to do except control the traffic and make sure nobody goes anywhere unsafe.

      This time I took the opportunity to climb Arthur’s Seat, with my Yes Linton flag and all. Never been up before. I looked at the hill from the bottom and said, I wonder if I can make it up in an hour? Easily got there in 45 minutes walking slowly and stopping to “admire the scenery” from time to time. It’s not as far away as you think.

      A metaphor, maybe?

    18. Tartan Tory says:

      Brilliant day in Edinburgh today. Only sign of any yoonery was a ned hanging out of a 2nd floor tenement window at Haymarket giving everyone from YesBikers ‘the finger’ as we rode past, so we just waved politely at the poor mite. He certainly wasn’t representative of Scotland (or even Edinburgh for that matter).

      Lots of folks came out of their homes and work-places to cheer us on – even in Corstorphine – which was a pleasant surprise.

      Police Scotland say over 100,000 took part today. SIU can just go and ‘do one’. I doubt if they could muster 0.1% of that.

    19. mark says:

      That’s their weekend ruined…win-win then 🙂

    20. Macart says:

      They’re no happy fer sure.

      A huge well done to all the marchers.

    21. Highland Wifie says:

      The puir wee sowls right enough.
      Everyone who was there today knows the truth. I know my eyes are getting aged but they’re no’ that bad!
      Genuine question, why are Britnats the most miserable, sour faced, unhappy looking people you’re ever likely to meet? They positively make the Rev IM Jolly look happy go lucky.

    22. Robert Louis says:

      It is amazing just how stressed out by the march the British nationalists are today. For something which they think is unimportant, they seem mighty obsessed with it.

      You can literally smell their fear.

      So, I and some others repeatedly challenged the British Nationalists prior to the 2014 referendum to state clearly the positive case for the union. Tell us just why Scotland is so much better off being run by a highly dysfunctional and undemocratic government of England, rather than a government elected by the people of Scotland.

      Of course the British Nationalists and their stooges in Labour and Tory parties never did say what the positive case was, aside from some neo-colonial hogwash of us’ winning the second world war together’ or even more stupendously daft, that ‘the union is the most successful in world history’. I guess it is successful for England, since they have taken all our oil and gas for free, whilst calling us scroungers. But aside from brazen theft from the people of Scotland, nothing tangible. No great benefit for Scotland that comes from letting England treat Scotland as its last colony.

      So, I guess the challenge remains, just what is the positive case for this one sided, wholly undemocratic union, where England can drag Scots out of the EU wholly against their wishes, and inflict an unwanted, cruel, twisted and frankly evil Tory Government on them.

      I’ll not hold my breath.

    23. Conan the Librarian says:

      We waited on Johnstone Terrace for forty minutes after one. By the time we got to the High St a steward told us 30,000 had been counted before us, and there were very many behind us.

      The BBC have reported 20,000…

    24. Tinto Chiel says:

      What sad, twisted and deeply unhappy people exemplified above, on the wrong side of history and unable to deal with the hope, optimism and cheerful solidarity on display today.

      I’ve quoted this once before, I’m afraid, but Samuel Adams knew a thing about types like that and reserved a special kind of contempt for them:

      “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

      An unforgettable and historic day so hats off to all concerned.

    25. Daryl Baptie says:

      When their entire argument is “there’s no appetite for another referendum” you can understand why they have lost it over the numbers demanding one today in Edinburgh.

    26. Gordon Taggart says:

      Well done to all who marched- good to see it was a fine day too! The yoons be somewhat vocal and protest too much!

      I estimate that all 100 of the screaming fearties are seething!

      Wishing all well from not so sunny but warmer Lima, Peru.

      Hope I can make another one next year (maybe on the run-up to the referendum?). Edinburgh in 2013 was fantastic and these demos should be regularly held, if for nothing else, to laugh at the antics of the under-estimators!

    27. I was there. I livestreamed the whole thing on Yes Stirling FB page. I don’t know exactly how many people there were but it’s the biggest indy march I’ve seen. I do know however how many unionists there were gathered on the Royal Mile…24. And I honestly STILL don’t know one single word that unionist fellow whatsisname said.

    28. Return of the mac says:

      Apologies for 2 similar posts, didn’t realise the first one posted. Regardless, it wisnae a bad day.

    29. stewartb says:

      Watched in the Park at the end of the march as a stream of people went up to the guys with the Rangers Fans for Indy banner to shake their hand and chat. One of many highlights of my day!

    30. Josef Ó Luain says:

      It wasn’t possible, for me, anyway, to gauge the true number in attendance. Throughout the afternoon there were, for example, as many people leaving the park as there were coming in.
      The minuscule number of Unionist counter-demonstrators sent it’s own “numbers” message loud-and-clear, though. Most of them appeared to lack the self-awareness necessary to feel embarrassed by their number, unfortunately.
      Today’s march was massive – that much I can say.

    31. Chris F says:

      Why are so many unionists so grey? So gloomy? So bitter? So resentful? The march today was invigorating, stimulating and, above all, good natured and fun! And It was seriously well attended.

      I was at the Bannockburn and Dundee marches, which were big, but today in Edinburgh was something else in terms of numbers. I was seeing tweets that the first marchers had arrived at Holyrood Park before we had even reached the start point at the top of Johnston Terrace! And we passed those at the head of the march coming back up the Mile again before we’d even reached the Canongate.

      Ah, well. I suppose to be getting their knickers in such a twist these unionists must be very worried. Good.

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      Just back in the door. What a glorious day for a march and what a turnout.

      There are some torn faces in that selection above. Oh dear how sad 🙂

    33. Helena Brown says:

      Tinto check, thanks for that, we should be reminded that they tarred and feathered those that were not behind their cause. They put them on ships back to the homeland, we only need a bus.

    34. Fred says:

      Big Larkhall indy banner on the hill! Better a sinner that repenteth!

    35. Chris Primrose says:

      Great gathering. My younger daughter and I attended. I have been at marches over the years but this was the biggest.
      O/T Got home tonight and discovered, from an advert, that “Walkers Crisps” thinks that Scotland is a a region like the “North” and the “South West”.
      Emailed them on their complaint form that I’d never buy a packet of their crisps again because I’m from the South West (of Scotland) which is north of their “North”.

    36. stewart fae stoney says:

      THe yoons are sad, deluded and unfortunately blinded by the butchers apron, all I can say to the yoons is open your eyes to the lies right in front of you,

    37. David McFeeters says:

      Apparently the one o’clock gun wasn’t fired today (damp powder?)……Now that’s being petty!

    38. James Westland says:

      Just got to love that “Force for Good” logo – the union jack heart. Guess what the BNP have as their logo. Yes, a union jack heart.

      I read in a tweet earlier by a gay guy with a rainbow flag that this lot (with the UJ heart) were shouting “faggot” at him…

      And the heart is a symbol of love… sigh….

    39. HandandShrimp says:

      And I honestly STILL don’t know one single word that unionist fellow whatsisname said.

      He was particularly incomprehensible today. I think the numbers and the acoustics of the street were against him. Given the numbers and length of time the march took to clear the Royal Mile (well over two hours I believe) he must sucking fishermen’s friends tonight (no euphemisms intended).

    40. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Helena Brown 9.32: no buses necessary. I’m actually going to insist Horsefeathers and his wee sad groupies stay abune the dyke post-Indy and have to suffer living in a progressive, egalitarian society governed for the benefit of all.

      That will surely drive them madder than hatters.

    41. Petra says:

      We’ve just returned from the march and what a turnout! We were standing next to a group of Policemen (and woman) when one cop spoke into his radio and said, “there’s well over 100,000 here.’ The Policewoman turned to one of her colleagues and said “how are we going to find them in this crowd?” Maybe she was referring to the Union flag flying Britnats, lol.

      The weather was great and the crowd was brilliant plus we had cars tooting and people on the pavements giving us the thumbs-up and so on. It was heartening to hear so many with English accents supporting independence and we even came across a “Rangers fans for Independence” group.

      Tommy Sheppard was there along with Joanna Cherry, Michelle Thompson (whom I spoke to – and was looking fantastic), Craig Murray, Prof Mark McNaught (another I had a great conversion with) and a number of other SNP politicians.

      Everybody around us ignored the Butchers Apron brigade and just sang and shouted even more loudly to drown them out.

      I wish I had taken the time to count the bikers. By the time it dawned on me to do so I had counted over 100.

      There’s so, so much more I could say about the day such as talking to a number of EU nationals, every last one supporting independence, but I’m off to celebrate now (big smiley face). As we’re celebrating TMay, Ruth Davidson et al must be quaking in their boots, as 100,000 PLUS at a march in Edinburgh equates to over a million in London. “No appetite for Independence”, Ruth? Aye right!

      Have a great weekend folks.

    42. Normski says:

      Oh what a shame that all the tourists saw 100k people walk past too and filmed it in astonishment.

      Today was a good day.


    43. Robert Peffers says:

      You really have to wonder, as there isn’t, according to the opposition parties at Holyrood, any demand for independence in Scotland, why those 100,000 plus folks with Saltires and Indy banners bother marching around our Capital City causing disruption and encouraging bystanders to cheer and clap their efforts to demonstrate there is some who do indeed demand independence?


    44. Stoops says:

      “Movement that sees all of Scotland as it’s private playground”. Well why wouldn’t we?

    45. Gordon bradley says:

      I wonder what the reaction of the press and the yoons would have been if tens after tens after tens of thousands of Union flags, 6 deep, had taken well over two hours to pass a forlorn clump of 24 saltires ?

    46. Sinky says:

      BBC tv ‘national’ news has zilch coverage of 100,000 Indy marchers but plenty of coverage of smaller USA internal demonstations and miniscule public desplays of support for the so called peoples vote.
      Meanwhile no Scottish news bulletin this eveeb

    47. Scottish Steve says:

      Funny how these self-proclaimed superior beings who supposedly hate nationalism never tweet about their frustration and disdain when the Orange Order disrupts life during the summer.

      Ah, wait. The OO espouses the “right” kind of nationalism, sorry “patriotism” – the British kind!

      Hypocrites and cringe merchants, the lot of them.

    48. ScottieDog says:

      Wonderful day
      Great turn out for M’Connachie’s All Under One Brolly demo.

    49. Big Jock says:

      The haters gonna hate, hate hate.

      I took my 2 year old to the march. She had a ball patting dogs and waiving her flag. Not a hostile word spoken. Not ever a threat even when provoked by the Yoon dunderheids.They hate us because we are nice law abiding citizens.

      So they have to pretend we are zealots to suit their preconditioned prejudices.

    50. Big Phil says:

      What a day, what a turnout sitting now with a huge smile on my face ,me and my daughter marched with our fellow countrymen and women of all ages and together we know we made an historical day.
      Everyone will say it was this many or that many,I grew up watching crowds at football matches passing my house ,that was easy 100,000 plus today. And without any media promoting it ,it was simply Amazing.

    51. Haggishunter says:

      The Police Scotland enjoyed their day also. Wonder when their London bosses are going to replace them with lackies and psycophants who will start beating up innocent people?

    52. Robert Peffers says:

      I just realised, going by the video footage of the march on YouTube, there were more Dugs for Indy on the march than Yoons against Indy Protesters at the march.

      Says it all really, when even the dugs in the street are better informed than the Yoons.

    53. Clootie says:

      We know the truth 🙂
      …and so do they 🙂
      The start had reached the park before the tail even moved.

    54. ben madigan says:

      watched the livestream as long as I could this afternoon – what a wonderful sight.
      Well done Scotland, all the marchers and the organizers.

      I’m posting this film here this evening because on previous threads some people were complaining it was poorly distributed and hard to get to see

      So for all of you – Black 47

    55. dramfineday says:

      Conan the librarian at 9.03

      I must have been somewhat down the terrace from you (blast, missed you again mate) as it was around 14:30 before we started to move.

      As per Morag and others, it was difficult to measure volumes. At one point we were told that people filtering in from other streets were causing the delay in our column moving.

      And, like David at 9.50, a number of us remarked on the silence of the one o’clock gun, thinking initially that the bulk of the castle must have suppressed the discharge…..probably damp powder as you suggest David.

      One thing I can say for sure is that when I arrived at the end of the Royal Mile, people were heading home, pubs etc (back up the hill) hundreds were still coming down the hill (and still they came on to quote someone, somewhere)

      Bikers, cars and vans for indie were a grand sight, as were the number of folks I spotted with Wings badges and flags and the number of souls trudging up to Arthur’s seat…well done to you all.

      A grand day out guys.

    56. galamcennalath says:

      Stoops says:

      “Movement that sees all of Scotland as it’s private playground”. Well why wouldn’t we?

      That was my reaction to that.

      Scotland is everything to us, and nothing to them.

      The hardcore BritNat problem is they confuse all 2014 NO voters with themselves and their cultish allegiance to all that is not Scottish.

      Many/most NO voters saw what the thought, and were told, was the safe option for their future. They didn’t vote NO because of blind fanatical attachment to some mythical UK.

      Those who are irrationally welded to the UK (examples above) are a minority of NOs. Many/most can be persuaded there is something better.

    57. patricia young says:

      wonderful day…i think we will win x

    58. HYUFD says:

      Haggishunter May has not asked Rajoy for tips on how he cracked down on rowdy nationalists, he responded by sending the Spanish Civil Guard to Catalonia. Both May and Cameron before her have largely ensured displays of pro nationalist sentiment are allowed provided they are peaceful

    59. brewsed says:

      Back home after a lot of sitting on ram-packed trains (was there something on?). Best bits? Just the hunners and hunners of nice people, completely drowning out the manky UJ jacket man with humour, the sight of the flags and banners silhouetted up the hill, and there was a stage with speakers and music despite everything (well done AUOB), then lovely folk drifting back to Waverly (or the bus station).

    60. Lara says:

      I was at the march and rally today, and I’m certain it was a lot bigger than te huge Glasgow one. As others have said, it was a fantastic day. Such friendliness and camaraderie that cn only exist when everyone is happy and confident. We shook independence up today, no question. I feel so happy right now.

      The comments here today are extra good, some tht provoke a ‘yes!’, and other that made me laugh out loud. However my favourite so far is you Mr Peffers ,about the number of indy dogs. Hahaha brilliant.

    61. Dr Jim says:

      I spoke to a lovely American family who were only here for four days and enjoying themselves at how friendly our lil old country and people are, so comfortable were they that they joined the march and when we arrived at the park they asked all the usual questions to which gave all the usual answers but the one thing that struck them as most diabolical thing was this

      Scotland isn’t allowed to have its own broadcasting because it’s a “power” that the English government keep and hold

      Well you could have knocked these good old folks down with a feather when they got a load of that information, they were stunned like *totes* man (I’m going over the top with the Americanisms now aren’t I, I’ll stop) they didn’t really talk like that they were just nice ordinary folks who’s boots were blown off at a country that isn’t *allowed* its own broadcaster

      Needless to say they got the whole thing immediately on that alone, a country that is afraid to *allow* its neighbour its own broadcaster is a? fill in blank ( ———— )

    62. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers, my dug a 8 year old Collie said he sniffed mair dugs bums the day than he has ever done on wan day on his puff, and not one growled at him, infact the only one that had ever growled at him on an Indy March is that Wee Ginger Dug at a Glasgow March a couple of years ago.
      He is highly chuffed as he got his photo taken wae Bobby Bruce and his Missus.

    63. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim What then is STV?

    64. scunner says:

      Our wee group snuck in near the head of the march and reckon it took just under 2 hours for the last of them to reach the park.
      Grand weather and crowd.
      Manky Shirt couldn’t be heard and I guess he couldn’t hear us shouting “For god’s sake wash yer shirt” at him either.

      Marred slightly by an encounter in the gents of the Jolly Judge afterwards.
      Stocky Bald Guy: “Had a good day?”
      Me: “Yes, How about you? We’re you on the march?”
      Stocky Bald Guy: “No, ye kin stick yer independence. That Sturgeon’s a f***in’ liar. She wants us to stay in the EU and fill the country with immigrants.”
      Me: “Aye OK, Bye” (exits uncomfortable situation)

      Self-preservation says I’m not going to argue bit a menacing bigot in the toilet of a pub, especially one that’s plainly low in IQ. These unreasoning mouth-breathers are what we are up against – there’s loads of them, we have a hard job ahead.

    65. Mik Johnstone says:

      Only one arrest at the March today apparently, and that turned out to be a british Nationalist hitting someone on the heed with their flagpole

    66. Iain says:

      Sadly today I had to work, but looking at the film footage if I was a yoon I would be very worried.
      Then again I’m glad I am on the winning side.

    67. Ken500 says:

      What a great sight people getting organised to claim their rights.

      Thanks on behalf of the millions that could not be there but there is always the Ballot Box. Thanks a billion to everyone. Thanks and a special cheer to Rev Stu for all you do, A total hero.

    68. Collie says:

      The thing you notice most about these marches is the camaraderie that is noticeable as soon as you arrive. We all know something good is happening and that you are just pleased to be part of it.

      Brilliant day, apart from when we had to walk by those irrelevant couple of dozen BritNats.

      And there was easily over 100 000 there today.

    69. Mik Johnstone says:

      i was at the march today and i have to say british nationalists are absolutely crap at counting … they must run oot of their fingers (12) and toes (11), then need to use their pals digits

    70. Cubby says:

      HYUFD = just another lying British Nationalist.

    71. Collie says:

      I think the wee mouthy BritNat who turns up at all our Marches will need to be put on suicide watch once we win our Independence.

      The poor guy will be inconsolable.

    72. Dr Jim says:

      OK Fuddy i’ll do you this last one

      STV is a privately owned company licenced by the English government to broadcast in Scotland, y’know like Sky TV or Fox news, the Scottish government cannot by law commission its own public broadcaster, the Scottish government doesn’t even have the power to licence a radio channel

      Unlike every other democracy in the world Scotlands FM cannot have access to television appearance to eg make any public announcement of any kind without the invitation of the licenced broadcaster except in the legal situation of Party political Broadcasts in which case equal time and exposure must be granted to all other political parties irrespective of size or representation, in the case of the BBC permission from London is required, for STV, permission also comes from London

      Try again twitnat or are you recognising the similarities to Oh, say North Korea

      The only access Scotlands First Minister has to any kind of broadcasting is the same vehicle you are using now, the Internet

      Now you’re going to have to look up on Google any other countries in the world where it’s most senior politician in government can’t get on the telly without permission from an unelected petty functionary who answers to politicians in another country…….I’ll wait

    73. Confused says:

      Well done all you lovely people.

      The butthurt is strong amongst the yoonitariat.

      Ta ben madigan for the film rip.

      FUD – too much Red Bull last night – give it a rest and try working on your dating profile – keep your spam on the dead thread, and if you have any takers, so be it.

      The Union is in fear of the YES ZERG RUSH

    74. Cubby says:

      HYUFD = just another lying British Nationalist dumping his crap on Wings.

    75. remo says:

      Dr. Jim is a god.

    76. jfngw says:

      Watched the Glasgow & Edinburgh marches from the fixed livestream cameras. Can’t tell you the numbers but the duration at this point in Edinburgh was pretty much double the time taken for the Glasgow march. So unless people in Edinburgh walk unbelievably slowly (Royal Mile is downhill from castle so that would be strange) then I would suggest it was around double the size of the Glasgow march.

    77. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “@Jockanese Wind Talker says: 6 October, 2018 at 8:24 pm:
      ” … brilliant comment, Jockanese Wind Talker – that’s him telt, then.” @Robert Peffers says 6 October, 2018 at 8:55 pm

      It’s still 80 sleeps till Xmas and yet it feels like RPs made my year.

      RP that hyFUD won’t be telt. He will be a “last man, last bullet” kind of guy in defence of the UK Reich.

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mik Johnstone says: 6 October, 2018 at 11:37 pm:

      ” … i was at the march today and i have to say british nationalists are absolutely crap at counting … they must run oot of their fingers (12) and toes (11), then need to use their pals digits.”

      Tell you what, Mik, I’ve just done my usual bedtime review of todays news on the BBC text service and I see the British/English Nationalists are far more worried than I had thought.

      I base that opinion upon the fact that the only mention of the AUOB march was the one for Scotland and that one rather played down the extent of the numbers attending.

      There was not a mention on the UK Politics section, nor on the UK, English, English regions, Welsh or other English Kingdom countries, nor on the Main Headlines, UK News, World, Politics or anything else.

      A total BBC text blackout of the entire matter. Quite obviously they don’t want the rest of the United Kingdom, the EU or the rest of the World to know the break-up of the United Kingdom is getting so close to happening.

      Yet we get the first news item on the Main Headlines as, “Victory for Trump in Supreme Court vote”, and the second item as, “EU expects Brexit deal by ‘end of year’.

      They are obviously not only running scared but fear the pound will nosedive if the World currency market gets spooked at the idea of The Kingdom of England attempting to exist without their Kingdom of Scotland cash cow to milk.

      They are caught in a trap of their own making – if they suppress the news then anyone with a finger on the UK pulse knows they are running scared of independence but if they broadcast it they spook the World Financial Markets but the World Finance Markets are not inhabited by numpties and their omissions will be noticed.

      You can smell the Westminster fear from Shetland and it is very pungent indeed in Central Scotland.

    79. Cubby says:

      Mega crowd in Edinburgh today.

      Thanks to the organisers.
      Thanks to the stewards.
      Thanks to the Police.
      Thanks to all who attended for their good nature.
      Thanks to all the yes bikers – what a show – magnificent.
      Thanks to the dancing queen – don’t dance with the devil. You were brilliant.
      Thanks to the speakers- all were good but rock on Tommy- you were the man.
      Thanks again to Amanda for all her songs but particularly her version of Caledonia.
      Thanks to the band.
      Thanks to all with their stalls.
      Thanks to all who climbed up Arthur’s seat to add to the spectacle.

      NO thanks to HES – it’s only a bit of flat grassland FGS.
      NO thanks to the Britnats- what is the point of them turning up- sad hanger ons. Organise your own March.
      NO thanks to the Britnat media for their usual Britnat biased coverage.

    80. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim Why would she need to? Almost the only instance the leader of a country needs to broadcast to the whole nation outside of a TV or radio interview as Sturgeon does frequently anyway is in the event of a declaration of war or a major military strike and only the UK PM has that power not the Scottish First Minister

    81. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Also HYFUD

      “The global price of oil has slumped, if you are plumping most of your eggs in that basket”

      It is not all about OIL

      It is about ENERGY

      Who will your ‘England and Wales Government’ be proposing to buy it’s energy from and under what tariff regime?

      Scotland is a net exporter of electricity.

      England imports electricity from Scotland and from continental Europe (via the France and Netherlands interconnectors)

      What would WTO tariff in the event of NO-DEAL be to UK for this Continental European electricity?

      Northern Ireland also imports electricity from Scotland via the Moyle interconnector.

      In 2010, Scotland exported 20.6 per cent of the electricity generated there to consumers elsewhere in the UK (this rose to 26.1 per cent in 2011).

      Transfers from Scotland to England rose by 45 per cent between 2010 and 2011, to a new record high, as Scottish generation increased and consumption fell.

      In 2016 Scotland generated its electricity by:

      3.9% from Coal
      6.8% from Gas
      42.9% from Renewables
      42.9% from Nuclear
      3.5% from Oil & Other

      In 2016 England generated its electricity by:

      8.0% from Coal
      45.0% from Gas
      21.5% from Renewables
      23.1% from Nuclear
      2.2% from Oil & Other

      How much would it raise in revenue for an Independent Scotlands Exchequer?

    82. HYUFD says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker Great Scotland has so many renewable wind farms but ‘Scotland already has to import energy from England on days when wind turbines produced too little power to keep the lights on.’

      The UK is now moving towards the first stage of a deal with the EU anyway

    83. smithie says:

      Cubby says:
      7 October, 2018 at 12:02 am

      HYUFD = just another lying British Nationalist dumping his crap on Wings.
      So why the fuck did you answer that twat?….weak willed?

    84. Dr Jim says:

      Sturgeon, or as I prefer to call her Scotlands First Minister is *invited* to be interviewed as you have agreed, she has no right to decide on what the interview basis will or will not consist of and the reason for that is always always to attack her as the Enemy of the *British* state for some invented indiscretion or manipulation of fugures to which she can only refute, which is then followed by a prearranged pre recorded statement by the ineffectual Tory leader and ex BBC employee Ruth Davidson followed by Labour followed by Liberal Democrat
      then discussed at length by Tory or Labour supporting *journalists* from the anti SNP press which remember are licenced by the English government and many of its *journalsts* because of the failing and dwindling nature of sales in newspapers right across Scotland are paid by English government tax BBC licence payers money because the aforementioned newspapers are now so cash strapped in Scotland they can’t afford to finance themselves Google that sonny Lonely boy from Epping

      Unlike Theresa May your chosen representative (well actually you really didn’t choose her she was third choice leader by her party because the other two didn’t relish the job and Mrs May’s ego couldn’t hold her back) Theresa May refuses interviews on a regular basis, she travels to different parts of the country to scout halls to make televised propaganda surrounded by her chosen press representatives and armed guards then jumps into a waiting car or plane to be whisked back to downing street claiming she had visited somewhere where no actual ordinary people (voters) ever saw her

      First Minister of Scotland however is not surrounded by armed guards everywhere she goes and is just as easily seen on the street by anybody anywhere especially children who jump into her arms on sight (and you can’t fool kids) Nicola Sturgeon does not fear assassination round every corner, I’ve met her several times and I would guess most of the folk on this site have at some time or another met our First Minister she is that accessible and so popular in fact that little birdys and woodland animals scamper around her feet so much so Disney could make a film of her life possible starring someone like oh say Scarrlett Johhansson, I like her but it’s more likely to be Saoirse Ronan a fine Irish actress

      You should watch for it in a movie theatre near you coming soon

      Now off to bed with you lad so you’ll be fresh as a daisy for the gym in the morning and get that average body toned up in the hope of finding love in maybe some different places from here because let’s face it lad you’re not doing well for pals here and you are a little slow even in you’re own language, which must be a disappointment to your Mum along with the no grandchidren thing I guess

    85. Street Andrew says:

      God almighty! they’re getting desperate with their sniping comments.

      Didn’t hear what the twat in the dirty union flag jacket was saying….too much noise of footsteps going past…..

      Doubtless his rantings will be reported by the BBC as the only interesting thing to have happened in Edinburgh today, but what the hell ? Who’s listening. Not me . Why would I ?

    86. James Westland says:

      If indeed there were over 100000 at the march today, then that bodes well for the number of footsoldiers needed when Indyref2 is called. Prior to the 2014 Ref, the situation was nothing like this. There is clearly a massive groundswell. Fire that starting pistol will you, Nicola….

    87. Dr Jim says:

      50/50 on tonights average polls except when the Brexit question is put then the polls move to an immediate 52% Yes

      And our First Minister of Scotland hasn’t even asked the question yet or begun campaigning, it’s little wonder Yoonworld is having squeaky bum time (In a screamy loud way today)

      How uncharacteristic of them (snark)

    88. Molly says:

      Ben madigan

      Thanks for that. I’d wanted to see it but there wasn’t a cinema near me showing it.

    89. marga says:

      Just envy from Catalonia. Currently, our several 1 millioner peaceful marches have been back-defined by judges as “mobs”.

      Along with a big demo protesting against national govt searches of Catalan institutions, these have been used in an impressive exercise of creative jurisprudence to fuel accusations of violence, justifying political and social leaders being charged with rebellion and sedition over the recent unauthorised referendum.

      There’s now 9 leaders including 7 elected politicians among them the ex-Speaker of parliament in preventive jail w/o bail, and 5 in exile. Facing 30 yrs jail after a show-trial starting in January when all are expected to be found guilty.

      Even if HES gets heavy, don’t suppose things will get that bad, so count your blessings, folks, that you’re only in Brexit Britain and not Spain.

    90. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      HYFUD England has decided to go with importation of electricity from EU and Scotland plus Nuclear (Chinese built but paid for by UK tax payer) as National Policy.

      In Scotland Energy Policy is for developing renewables

      Ignore the finds in Scottish waters (The Atlantic Margin) which are bigger and better than the largest finds in Saudi Arabia, but without the water contamination.

      One word for you:


      I suppose you can huddle round a candle and envoke the “Blitz Spirit” while the English electorate who were lied to on the whole EU Referendum riot.

      Us Sovereign Scots will cope without Greater England’s benevolence somehow


    91. robertknight says:


      Took a while as we had to stop periodically to allow traffic to cross the Royal Mile at G IV Bridge, South Bridge & St Mary’s St, so it was a case of start/stop due to this.

      Can never tell numbers-wise but whichever cop spread the rumour that their estimate was 100,000 might I suspect have been on the wind-up.

      If the Council say 20,000 then a probable 30,000 would be nearer the mark. (Johnston Ter was full top to bottom and full width so judge from that what you will).

    92. David Mills says:

      Well, if nothing else, this article has show me how many Unionist have me in there blocked list as I had seen so very little of this “toys out of pram” fest interesting that any organisation that doesn’t tow their line is immediately deemed to be in the thrail of the SNP, and the called us conspiracy theories!

    93. Ghillie says:

      What an amazing wonderful day 🙂

      Met so many friends old and new!

      A sea of blue shimmed away down our High Street under a bright blue sky – so Scottish – so awesome =)

      Smiles all around =)

      The Saltires flying from the crags and hills took my breath away.

      And ALL these lovely folk want Independence too – so lovely to look around and see only friendly faces =)

      What a day 🙂

    94. smithie says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker @2.48am, was that a reply to a so called troll?…if so why?
      ~ are you and others trying to piss off Rev Stu?

    95. Bill says:

      @voiceoftheunion Same guy who threatened to shoot me. CID approached him, court appearance soon.

    96. Clootie says:

      Well done to all who travelled to Edinburgh yesterday. It really doesn’t matter what the unionist posters and media claim.

      It was the lift in spirit that we all needed. Keeping talking to friends and neighbours – that is how this fight will be won.

      Take heart from the way that the media ignores or plays down the support for Independence.

      Beware the Unionists making noises about a 2nd EU vote as it will still be England who decides your future and not the votes of Scots.

    97. gus1940 says:

      Does anybody have pictures of the flag bearers on The Radical Road, Crags and summit of the hill?

    98. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The “reliable police estimate” at Glasgow was over 91,000. We left Johnstone Terrace at exactly 1 pm near the front of the march and they were still streaming into the park (just over a mile away)at 3.30 as we were leaving. It was the police who initially supplied the 100,000 estimate yesterday of a march that took well over an hour and a half to pass any point.

    99. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rather rely on Colin McKay;s estimate

    100. Robert Louis says:

      I see lots of folk stating numbers for the march. I guess it was hard to tell, although I can say this, it was definitely more than Glasgow by some considerable margin. How do I know that,? First the number of folks assembling prior to the march, and also the number I saw in Holyrood park, even after some folks had already left. Assembly on Johnstone Terrace (and castle terrace), is a very wide road, yet it was thick with people.

      Honestly, the number in the park at the end was huge. I’d been to Glasgow green and the previous marches that ended in Princes street gardens and calton hill in Edinburgh, and their were definitely way more in attendance yesterday at Edinburgh.

      I would suggest estimates of 60-70k are likely not far off the correct number, but if anything it may have been higher. What it most certainly was not, was 20k, FFS.

    101. Robert Louis says:

      James Westland at 0146am,

      I totally agree. In the run up to 2014, the number were much, much smaller. Now, the starting point with number of bodies is much stronger.

      Of course the British Nationalists have their puppet media (BBC and almost all the ‘news’papers), plus all the full resources of the English colonial government, but we have the people.

      That will make the difference this time around. The last time we had to start getting people interested. This time around we already have 50% of voters interested.

      It is easy to forget, just how low the numbers were, way back at the START (not 2014) of the last campaign. Just waiting on the starting gun.

    102. Dorothy Devine says:

      The more I see and hear the more I wish I had hirpled over to Edinburgh yesterday.

      As I understand it Hysterical Environment Scotland has charitable status with government funding unlike the National Trust which gets no government funding . This indicates to me a certain grip on its short and curlies and therefore some leverage – no?

      See when the flag of Scotland appears on ALL its Scottish castles and environs I might forgive them their awkwardness.

    103. Robert Louis says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      Yip, I’d concur. Been to many of the marches. I know personally I reached the start of the Royal Mile at the top from Johnstone terrace at 2pm (and I started around two thirds of the way up). I got to the park a long time later – people were still arriving at least one hour after I arrived in the park.

      As I was heading back out the park (much later), I heard somebody say that the last people had just arrived.

      As I reached Coburn terrace on the way down, I saw the first of the people who had already made it to the bottom and were walking back up.

    104. Phydaux says:

      What a fantastic day out at the Indy March. Giant Saltires planted high up on the hill and the bonny sight of a sea of Saltires flying en masse as far as the eye could see. I reckon that the WOS flag was flying right at the very top of the Crags on a giant flagpole with Saltires underneath…soaring above us all. Hundreds of Bikers for Yes blazing a trail through the park, a head-turning spectacle to behold.

      How good it feels to be celebrating who we are, what we want and where we want to go. I have nothing in common with British Nationalists. They are conscienceless, emotionless, selfish, cold and calculating and devoid of any moral or ethical standards. The people of Scotland are now taking a very different path.

      The imminence of the death of the Union is palpable. Whilst Maybot is doing her allegorical Dance of Death, we are very much alive and full of hope and joy and optimism for the future freedom of our beautiful country.

      Heartfelt thanks to everyone involved and to Stuart for everything you do.

    105. sinky says:

      Scotland on Sunday quotes the nonsensical 20,000 turnout without competing more credible figures.

    106. Dorothy Devine says:

      P.S for those of you who didn’t see the YES Bikers in all their glory , nip over to youtube and have a keek!

    107. Ken500 says:

      What really matters is votes at the Ballot Box. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP for better governance standing up for Scotland,

      The Ballot Box is really important. That is were the number crunching is finally done.

      There was a huge Rally in Edinburgh which folk enjoyed. Well organised and attended. Just appreciate that.

    108. Robert Louis says:

      Phydaux at 0811am,

      Aye, as I was leaving their were still folks high up on the radical road and crags with many, many saltires flying. It was a glorious day.

      You comment is worth quoting;

      “How good it feels to be celebrating who we are, what we want and where we want to go. I have nothing in common with British Nationalists. They are conscienceless, emotionless, selfish, cold and calculating and devoid of any moral or ethical standards. The people of Scotland are now taking a very different path.

      The imminence of the death of the Union is palpable. Whilst Maybot is doing her allegorical Dance of Death, we are very much alive and full of hope and joy and optimism for the future freedom of our beautiful country.”

    109. Steviesparkie says:

      So proud to ride out with #yes bikers .massive crowd at park. Well done everyone..

    110. ScottieDog says:


      I’m sad I missed the bikers. I had been really looking forward to that part. Took us so long to get to the park that you had done your circuits by the time we got there,
      Boy in the ice cream van at the park should be able to retire after yesterday!

    111. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      52% Yes … And our First Minister of Scotland hasn’t even asked the question yet or begun campaigning,

      ….. and that’s against a background of years of relentless anti SNP/SG/Indy campaigning by BritNats.

      We are in a very strong position. When our campaign does take off, the BritNats know what will happen.

    112. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim Did the gym yesterday but thank you for the concert.

      Panelbase today still has it 52% No 48% Yes in the event of No Deal Brexit while Survation has it the reverse. On the standard question Panelbase has it 56% No 44% Yes and Survation has it 54% No 46% Yes.

      No Deal Brexit would make it closer true but even most English voters in the polls do not want No Deal Brexit and as May is moving towards the whole UK staying in the Customs Union until a technical solution is found to the Irish border to get the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period to negotiate a FTA even Juncker confirmed yesterday an initial Deal was near

    113. Les Wilson says:

      Well, being stuck in Johnstone Ter, for an hour and a half was no fun. However, it did allow some good chats with fellow Scots with the same mindset.

      Glasgow was huge, but so was this and yes, perhaps even bigger. When still standing in Johnstone ter, my son found a live feed on his mobile, from the park, loads of folks there, a sea of saltires flying.
      That was before we and the many thousands behind us had even made a step forward. So forget the Unionist crap this must have been the biggest Indy march ever.

      There was 8 butchers aprons on show as I passed them, I counted them. The stinky tee shirt guy was completely drowned our by our booing. Yup, a depressing day for the yoons AND their media.

      People from all walks of life in harmony, this is what Scotland is, we should be very proud that no negative events occurred.

      We will no longer suffer English rule!

    114. Robert Louis says:

      The National newspaper has a rather splendid front cover today. 🙂

    115. Ken500 says:

      Brilliant article in the National @ Andrew Trickell. Going from strength to strength.

      The National must curtail the unionist trolls from the website to add to achieved success. Just as posters who supported Independence were deleted and banned consistently from the Herald website etc, Ruining it, leading to it’s demise. Groundhog Day. People will not view it. There are other BT website were they can habitate from the South. Do not make the same mistake as the Herald (total bias). Stick to recognised expressed support and aims.

      Tgere is going to be an absolute unionist rammy soon. With the introduce of Universal Credit. To totally unnecessarily cut payments. An absolute disgrace. Scantionig and starving vulnerable people. Just like Thatcher, it ended up with civil disorder and violence. Unemployment at 18%. Higher in Scotland. Interest rates at 18%. Inflation reaching 25%.

    116. Sunniva says:

      Yes, a fantastic event. I joined the march at the bottom of Johnstone Terrace at 12.50. It hadn’t moved by 1.45 so I began moving up the stationary crowd to see what the hold up was. We had to cross George IV bridge / Bridge Street and also South Bridge. The police were holding up the march to allow traffic through periodically so the march was being broken up and never allowed to form a solid block with large gaps between where it had been held up to manage traffic. I eventually arrived at the park around 2.15 and people continued to straggle in for at least another hour. Folk who had arrived earlier had pitched themselves up on the crags and it was a marvellous sight to see all those saltires waving so high as we entered the park. The parade of the Yes bikers was about 2.20 and I counted over 200. Fantastic day and very uplifting but regret that the crowd was so straggled and never allowed to feel it full force.

    117. Robert Alexander Harrison says:

      We are getting to them those britnats which was probably no more than 20 were so sour faced it was like misery just ozooed of them when I passed them in the mid section of the March the fact they making up these lies is they can’t stand to be dying out like the dinosaurs or the dodo that’s what happens when stuck in the past while the rest of the world moved on in the last 300 years.

    118. Andy Anderson says:

      I was there. I asked a person in a uniform in front of Holyrood palace what time the start if the March passed him. He said 1.30pm. This was at 3.20pm and the marchers were still passing. It was 3.25 the end came by.

    119. Ken500 says:

      The rest of the UK (England) is the third highly densely populated State in Europe. (Not in the world), Not because of any EU policy or the free movement policy. It is because of UK (US) distaterous foreign policy and Illegal wars. Bombing the Middle East to bits. Displacing million of people. Over 4 million living in tents. This brought mire migrantion into Europe.

      Even out of the EU still would still happen as a result of Westminster unionist foreign policy, Johnston and his cronies wants a war with Russia. A total imbecile. No one benefited more from the EU (public funding). His father was an EU diplomat. This gave Johnston his privilege free existent. A migrant family existing on public benefits. There would be mititary action on the Russia borders if Trump had not refused this action. He knows the US cannot afford it. Or thousands more innocent deaths and destruction.

      Johnston would not last 5 mins as PM.

      Everyone was against the illegal war intent. The Westminster cretins when along with it causing devastation. Leading to a low wage enonomy in the UK. Wasting £Billions, same in the US.

      Scotland population stagnated since 1928. Since 1951 it hardly changed. Went down under Thatcher in the 80’s. Barnett Formula ensured that tgecequivalebt of £Billions of Scottish revenues went south to the UK Treasury, illegally and secretly, To fund London S/E. Thus ensuring London S/E population remained higher than Scotland, The population in Scotland has only increased since Devolution 2000 with some growth.

      The reason why the rest of the UK (England) is the third most densely populated State in Europe.(not tge wirld) Is because of the Westmibster illegal foreign policies. More people come to the UK because if it. Not because if EU membership,

    120. gus1940 says:

      Dozens of great pics and clips on RT.

    121. 100,000 + easy,

      the lassie on the stage singing/belting out Flower of Scotland had to stop because she was overcome by emotion,

      you cannae fake that,the chill October breeze made my eyes water a bit,

      the whole day/occasion was a phenomenal endorsement that the want/need for Independence is not only still there but robust and growing

      and a fantastic and uplifting boost for Nicola and the SNP Conference.

      Almost felt sorry for the manky shirt guy or as we called him `Billy nae mates`.

    122. HYUFD says:

      Ken500 Actually the biggest movement from the Middle East to Europe has been from Syria where the US and UK did not intervene against Assad and the biggest intervention has been from Russia on Assad’s side agaibst the rebels. It was Merkel who welcomed the Syrian refugees. Agreed the EU allowed transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 but Blair refused them

    123. HYUFD says:

      Ken500 UK unemployment is now just 4%. Universal Credit will ensure you do not lose all your benefits if you work more than 16 hours a week as is the case now

    124. Dorothy Devine says:

      Gus 1940, thanks for the heads up on the RT photos . Love the one with the bonny lass and her ‘today is my 18th birthday and this is my future’

    125. Dorothy Devine says:

      We need a song folks – where is Stanley Odd when you need him?

      Not a dirge but a jolly – like Marie’s wedding style.

      Though I have to say I did appreciate the wondrous rendition of where to stick ones Tunnocks wafers however I do acknowledge it might not be to everyone’s taste!

      Haven’t eaten any Tunnocks since 2014 .

    126. Orri says:

      The capacity of Hampden is 52 thousand , Wembley 90 , Celtic 61, Rangers 51

      Just to put into perspective the kind of numbers police are used to seeing and managing.

      Wembley, or at least the roof, is 11 acres. Holyrood Park is 650. However not all that’d be used yesterday.

      Not saying it was 100,000 but it’s definitely possible.

      A rule of thumb might be 8 wide and a yard apart means 14 thousand per mile. So length of walk, average speed and time taken might all be used to estimate how many took part.

    127. frogesque says:

      For anyone, FUD included, who thinks the rally was pointless with only YES talking to YES, I would guarantee that there are more photies of us doing the social media rounds in Japan and elsewhere world wide. Every tourist and groups were taking snaps as we went down our High Street.

      The usual Unionist presence was drowned out an one lad caused much amusement when he produced a packet of Daz for Manky Jack.

      And dogs, lots and lots of dogs, enough to rival Crufts!

      Also caught up with Brian Doonthetoon and some the other vile cybernats with the Glenrothes, Kenoway, and Methil YES banners.

      We are getting there, they know it, we know it, they have nothing to offer and they are bricking it. It’s coming yet fa’ a’ that!

      Freedom! And whatever butters yer toast and soothes yer achy tootsie’s.

    128. Flower of Scotland says:

      I’ve been to every Independence march except Inverness. This one was HUGE! I believe over a 100,000 attended with lots more waving from the sides with their flags too.

      Living in Willie Rennie territory, I needed yesterday!

      Met up with some Wingers. Nice to see you Ronnie and Cearc.

      The camaraderie was wonderful. Except for 10 British Nationalists, everyone watching were very friendly!

    129. Valerie says:

      @ Bill 6.46am

      Well done. Since Dunblane, Police take any talk, stupid or not, as serious, I know this personally, so good to see it continues.

      I had occasion 3 weeks ago to contact Police using a special email contact on the site to report threat. I was arguing with a Britnat, when it suddenly said “You need to do better at hiding, I’m looking at your FB page”

      My response “That’s screenshotted. Now I’m going straight to Police with that tweet that you are trying to stalk”

      Went to Police Scotland site, it’s quite clear how to report. Did my report, what actions I’d taken.

      Within 30 mins, Police reponded, advising I had done everything right thus far, and what to do, should this idiot try contact again.

      Do not ignore, people, be the change you want to see. You cannot let these idiots threaten as they wish.


    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 7 October, 2018 at 12:24 am:

      ” … Dr Jim Why would she need to? Almost the only instance the leader of a country needs to broadcast to the whole nation outside of a TV or radio interview as Sturgeon does frequently anyway is in the event of a declaration of war or a major military strike and only the UK PM has that power not the Scottish First Minister”

      I won’t leave out a word of your absolutely idiotic comment, HYUFD.

      It absolutely makes the best possible case for the termination of the Treaty of Union. It does it far, far better than I ever could.

      but lets point out why it does so:-

      You state, ” … Almost the only instance the leader of a country …”, which highlights that Scotland’s FM is the leader of a country and is elected as such by the legally sovereign people of that country of Scotland.

      Then you continue your idiocy with this little gem, ” … and only the UK PM has that power not the Scottish First Minister.”

      Note too that you adopt the customary Westminster practice of using acronyms instead of the full titles in order to distract from what is really being claimed being a lie.

      The UK a.k.a. “The United Kingdom”, as its full title clearly shows is NOT a country – its full title shows it is factually The bipartite. “United Kingdom”, that is a quadratic two partner kingdom composed of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms one of which is composed of three distinct countries.

      Furthermore the acronym, “PM”, is in full, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”. Thus the acronym PM is used to distract from the truth that the Prime Minister is legally the Queen of England’s delegate of the Queen of England’s sovereignty and not that of either the country of England nor is the Prime Minister legally the Prime Minister of either the country or the kingdom of England.

      Not only that but there is no such legally, elected as such, parliament of either the country or the kingdom of England. The last parliament of the Kingdom of England sat and declared itself in permeant recess from 30 April 1707 and no one has been elected as either a country or kingdom of England Member of parliament ever since 1 May 1707. Every member of the Westminster parliament of the United Kingdom since that date is a United Kingdom Parliament Member and thus the, (cough!) PM of the UK is neither the Prime Minister of a country nor the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom – but the Queen of England’s delegated sovereignty in the United Kingdom Parliament.

      Thing is that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”, does not represent their legal sovereignty – but the Scottish First minister legally does.

      To put all that in a nutshell – The people of the three country Kingdom of England are Her Majesty The Queen of England’s subjects who get to elect Her Majesty’s Prime Minister of Her Majesty’s Government but Her Majesty’s Prime Minister is Her Majesty’s Legal delegate in the United Kingdom Government and no Government of England exists.

      The members of the United Kingdom Government elected by the sovereign people of Scotland are their legal delegates and represent them, not the Queen of Scots, at Westminster.

      Complicated but legally true and that is why the Westminster Government did not contest the recent Scottish Claim of Right at the Supreme Court. By which omission they acknowledge that the People of Scotland are legally sovereign and if a majority of them give their legally elected First Minister a mandate to end the Treaty of Union the United Kingdom is ended.

      Thank you for making our case for us, HYUFD.

    131. Socrates MacSporran says:


      Wingers: Spare a thought this morning for the Titan of Scottish media opinion; the biggest fish in oor ain wee puddle – Kevin McKenna.

      Marr on Sunday comes live from Glasgow, they need Scottish talking heads for the newspaper review. OK, Sarah Smith, Her Britannic Majesty’s media representative in Scotland – yes we will have to have her on. We need a non-scary face from the SNP, step forward John Nicolson. Who else?

      Sady for him – not Kevin McKenna, he doesn’t register on the Unionist London radar. Puir wee soul.

    132. Robert Peffers says:

      Just a wee reminder for Wingers:-

      Worth reading as it tells you that it is the members – not the party leaders – who make or change SNP party policies.

      It also lets people sign up as SNP party supporters without actually becoming card carrying members.

    133. Cageybee says:

      Being cursed with chronic arthritis I was puggled by the time I made it to the tron from my car parked outside the council offices in newmarket st. I took refuse on one of the concrete bollards and remained there from 12:45 until after the end of the parade had passed. The parade started as the one o’clock gun went off and it was 3:20 before the official end (but there were still stragglers rejoining probably from a pub or sandwich bar break). I am sad to have missed the park but having got back to my car and driven home I have spent 16 hours in bed recovering. My guess for the crowd is 100-120 thousand even allowing generous 40 minutes of non movement due to traffic

    134. Andy smith says:

      Myself and my wife were at tail end of march at 1pm, by 2:15 we’d only moved around a hundred yards,needing toilet break we took refuge in nearby hostelry, by time we left around 3 the road was clear but we eventually caught up with end of march in the cannongate.
      Make of that what you will, but 20-30,000. no way !!

    135. mike cassidy says:

      Its a Sunday morning.

      So, in between the euphoria of yesterday’s march and the SNP conference

      why not have a look at how a wee country can look after itself.

    136. Ken500 says:

      John Nicholson has got a radio slot in the south. He will be quite known on the London radio/media circuit. He has relevant media contacts in the south.

    137. Patsy Millar says:

      Great day in Edinburgh yesterday. We had to leave the park at 3.20 to get back to our bus and there were still large numbers coming down the mile. We couldn’t see the end of the line.

    138. Marcia says:

      Good, these marches are getting under their skin. The size of the Edinburgh one has taken the yoons by surprise, but they won’t admit it.

    139. schrodingers cat says:

      interesting comment on james kelly’s blog about latest polls.
      I think this sums up why we need clarity on brexit before launching indyref2.

      Should Scotland be an independent country?

      Yes 46% (-1)
      No 54% (+1)

      Attracting more interest, though, are two hypothetical questions asking how people would vote in the event of two Brexit-related scenarios:

      In the event of Brexit:

      Yes 50%
      No 50%

      In the event of a no deal Brexit:

      Yes 52%
      No 48%

      RobertOctober 7, 2018 at 9:34 AM
      The interesting one for me is the middle question.

      It kind of suggests that despite the EU referendum being ages ago and Brexit rumbling on constantly since and us only being a few months now away from March 2019, quite a few people still don’t really “believe” Brexit is going to happen because presumably if they did it would ALREADY be baked into the response from the first question.

    140. Jock McDonnell says:

      ain’t she terrific

      really on song today

    141. Dorothy Devine says:

      Andrew marr and very especially Gordon Brewer attempting to make the huge mark a scar against the SNP .

      Gordon brewer is a rude and ineffective interviewer.


    142. Stravaiger says:

      Yesterday was awesome! The tourists must have wondered what hit them 🙂 It took hours to get all the way down the High Street. Totally drowned out the dirty jacketed Brit Nat bloke by singing ‘Flower of Scotland’.

      The bikers for Indy took over 6 minutes to all roar by, then we went up Salisbury Crags to look down on the crowds. Back up the High Street to try to find a table in the packed pubs.

      If you saw a kilted bloke with twa dugs wearing Saltires, that was me 😉

      Later that evening a Japanese news agency asked if they could use my photos and videos from Instagram so the world is aware, even if there’s a virtual news blackout here at home.

      Thanks to all for making it such a great day.

    143. Fred says:

      Did anybody clock the Indy bride in her limmo near the High Court? Great day for it! 🙂

    144. Footsoldier says:

      There are various techniques used to estimate crowd numbers and here is one of many found online.

      The problem with a moving march and using photos, is the very strong possiblity of counting the same people more than once.

      Perhaps the next march a few people could be positioned to do an estimate of those passing – a boring job for sure.

    145. Tammytroot says:

      Like Cageybee above, I too suffer from arthritis and I had planned to get the bus to the park and watch people arrive.
      However, when I got on the bus it was jam packed with folk carrying flags and I felt ashamed.
      Long story short, I did the whole March.
      Suffering for it today, but so, so glad that I made it.
      The spirit of all those taking part carried me all the way!
      My gratefu thanks to everyone concerned with the organisation and stewarding.
      Had a good laugh at the pitiful wee group of toons.
      Thanks again everyone.
      You’ve made an old man very happy.

    146. Fred says:

      Janey Godley/Mundell superb, Hackalumph link on Off Topic!

    147. Frank Gillougley says:

      Watching the telly this morning, Nicola is a saint and Ian Blackford has the patience of a saint.

      I know it’s just tough shit this waiting until there is some form of clarity through the due Brexit talks process. Can you imagine the toxic clamour otherwise (and forevermore), if the SNP acted prematurely?

      For the sake of 1-2 months, why would the SNP give the unionists a counter-productive gift? Especially when without being seen to be ‘doing’ anything and through the continuing Tory brexit farrago, the SNP support and Yes movement support is growing in the right direction.

      But, if the goalposts are moved yet again in the near future and the SNP are complicit with it, I for one will have had it. History moves quickly.

      The pressure being kept on the SNP to deliver is only understandable and right.

    148. Ken500 says:

      The Pollster use the Polls to manipulate the result. Based on 1000 people. Often breaking Polling rules and guideline That is why on tight margins they are so often wrong. They are illegally funded and used by wealthy people to manipulate the markets to make them £Millions. The electoral rules totally broken. The Polling industry is a total disgrace. A completely corrupt industry. Shown up time and time and fined and censor. Often to no avail. Breaking electoral and personal data Law. Still under investigation. Why a Scottish uni is employing an electoral Law breaker on public money is a mystery.

      The Polling association being censored and fined repeatedly. Breaking the professional standards and guideline. The damage it is doing to the economy. Causing increased poverty and derision.
      Predicted electoral results in three years on these results are just ridiculous. Fast changing events show just how much things can change in three years.

      Labour etc could have brought May and her cronies down over a year ago. September 2016. To end their ridiculous policies . Sanctioning and starving people to death. Leaving vulnerable people illogical without food. A criminal political offence. Corbyn and his cronies do not want the poisoned chalice.

      These Polls could be being released at this time to do precisely that purpose. To try and manipukre the vote and the outcome. Even within a 3 year timetable. In a fast moving situation. Just a waste of time and more than likely wrong again.

    149. Les Wilson says:

      I had one tiny concern yesterday. Eventually when I got to the park I went over to hear who was coming next at the speaker’s platform, I watched a stirring speach from Tommy Shepherd.
      I then waited for who was next.

      It was a perky wee lass on from the Basque country. She went on about why the Independence seeking places should act together ie together we are strong and more likely to succeed. Went on to talk about areas in Portugal, Basque country, Catalonia and serveral others.

      I think in our hearts we support the idea, but for me that is for after we ourselves are successful. We have long supported Catalonia, however we are different from all of these and others she mentioned. I personally do not think we need more powerful enemies in Europe at this particular time. We have our own hurdles to jump first.

      When we get lumped together with others seeking Independence, we are confusing the issues.
      We are in a “Union” with the English state, we are not a region seeking Independence in the same way as others are. We should, again in my view, not get tied to other ideologies that may bring more problems for our own movement.

      We have different paths to cross, at this moment in time, while we cross these paths we do not need more enemies, the ones we have are bad enough.

      We will after winning, have more time to support these other issues, with which we largely support, at least for their challenges towards freedom.
      So lets keep our agenda different for now, we need to sow up our own destiny first.

    150. Fred says:

      Well done Tammytroot!!!

    151. Valerie says:

      Oooh, that will go down like cold sick, with Brit readership.

      Journalist from New Stateman

    152. Bob Mack says:

      Every great general in every conflict ever fought, attributed their victories to one thing. In a word—-impetus.

      We are the ones already in motion ,spreading the word and gaining support. Post No deal Brexit that impetus will become a deluge. We have the advantage now and they damned well know it.

      Unionists can obfuscate and prevarication all they like but the tide is turning and we all know what happened to King Canute when he sought to turn the tide.

      Keep the faith and desire alive, because we are definitely in the final run in to our liberty as a people

    153. Ken500 says:

      The complete and utter lies they are telling about Russian are despicable. Absolutely outrageous. A diversion and distraction. Just total propaganda. Trying to cause disasterous illegal military action. Increasing strife.

      Since the 1990’s 150Million people have gained self government, determination and freedom. The Russian (USSR) population has halved. 150Million people. Under Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Putin. Putin is a total hero and a great Statesman bring more prosperity to the people and decreasing poverty and inequality. That is why he has 80% rating and is constantly re elected. Establishing more democracy and trying to stop war and illegal action by dialogue if possible.

      The last thing Russian or Germany want is more war and destruction. 26Million Russians died saving the West. Europe was devastated. It left no country affected. That is why the EU was formed to stop starvation and war in Europe and elsewhere. In the world. This has been successful.

      Poverty rate in US and Russia 14% -16%. In the UK 15% 18%. Increased 3% under the Tories. Illegal sanction put on Russia by the West have increased poverty in Russia from 10% to 15% illegal sanctions cause poverty in the world. A regressive policy. increasing world poverty.

    154. Dr Jim says:

      Our resident lonely average body boy Troll has made it his mission to troll our First Minister now

      Fancies her!

    155. Collie says:

      BBC News24 gave about six seconds of coverage from yesterdays march,,,three seconds showing the Saltires flying and three seconds showing a close up of the few Butchers Aprons that were on show.

      I kid you not, they were trying to make out there was a huge turnout of BritNats.

      The dirty sneaky Unionist bastards at the BBC never miss a trick.

    156. galamcennalath says:

      ” Sturgeon told the BBC she expected British Prime Minister Theresa May to reach a “cobbled-together” deal to leave the European Union which parliament would be expected to rubber stamp with no details. Such an outcome would be unacceptable, she said. “

      Indeed. I have long thought a fudged Blind Brexit is a probable outcome.

      The SNP will oppose it, good. But would it provoke IndyRef2?

      Also, will Tory rebels (if both extreme factions) support it? IMO Yes, because they think they can get what they want during the transition period trade talks.

      Will enough Labour support it? IMO also Yes because enough want Brexit,

      Perhaps May will be defeated and things take another course, but like Nicola I have felt it’s all going Blind.

    157. Jack Murphy says:

      Cageybee began his/her Post at 10:31 am:

      ” Being cursed with chronic arthritis I was puggled by the time I made it to the tron from my car parked outside the council offices in newmarket st.

      I took refuge on one of the concrete bollards and remained there from 12:45 until after the end of the parade had passed…….”

      Now that is sheer determination,but you can truly say,” I WAS THERE ” and that’s what matters. Best wishes. 🙂

    158. schrodingers cat says:

      polls can be skeewed, no question, but what is interesting about this poll isnt the absolute figures but the trends

      1. brexit, for some, hasnt happened yet and hasnt been decided.
      2. brexit will cause voters to switch from no to yes, enough for us to win

    159. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers So on your argument any TV platform needs to be given to the ‘people of Scotland’ not Sturgeon as First Minister as it is they not her who are sovereign!

    160. Ken500 says:

      People who cannot manage to march can just use the Ballot Box. Just as important and necessary. If not more. No one should tax their strength totally unnecessary. There are various legitimate means to give support etc. Donation and canvassing. Join the SNP? Helping out with deliveries etc. When any campaign comes. Do not tax health and become unwell.

      A magnificent effort and thanks to all the marchers. There are plenty of other ways of giving support. Just do it. Requiring less physical strength.. Millions of people are doing it. That is no disgrace because of logistics. Remember when any Official campaign starts the SNP has the means to fund it. Adhering to the Official guidelines. Keep right on to the end of the road. Keep right on to the end. Though the way be tough. Just keep going on to success. Right above might.

      Spain/Catalonia and Scottish Independence is a totally different situation that should never be considered or compared without qualification. Too many diffences to be similar. Apart from being Independence Movements. Not to be confused. Or it could harm Independence Movements by creating confusion.

    161. HYUFD says:

      Schrodingers Cat Though Panelbase today in the Sunday Times has it No 56% Yes 44% but No 52% Yes 48% in the event of No Deal.

      Clearly the biggest boost for Yes comes with No Deal but even then that does not guarantee Yes gets over 50%.

    162. Elmac says:

      The Biased Broadcasting Corporation and their media pals are trying to keep the success of yesterday’s march from the general public by their usual omission and manipulation of the facts. This was achieved despite their prior attempts to keep the existence of the march out of the public domain and then latterly to disrupt it. All who were there know the size of the turnout and the effect it would have on the many tourists and local bystanders. It was an awe inspiring day. It brought back memories of standing on the Hampden terracing on an April day in 1970 as part of a crowd of 136,000 to watch Celtic play Leeds – or was it only 20,000? Guess it must have been as it felt like the same size of crowd yesterday.

    163. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim Personally as a Unionist Tory former Remain voter I have some respect for Sturgeon, she is an intelligent pragmatist on Scottish independence in a similar manner May is on Brexit. Both back them but look at the detail and technicalities before rushing over the cliff.

      It is Salmond who is the real rabble rouser for Scottish independence just as Boris is for hard Brexit

    164. HandandShrimp says:

      The BBC say that the police say that someone from Edinburgh City Council said it was 20,000. Who was that someone?

      The previous 4 marches had official police estimates. There is no way that there were only 5,000 more than the ones in Stirling, Inverness and Dumfries. I was at the Glasgow march where the official police estimate was 35,000. This one was definitely bigger. There may have been 20,000 up at the stage end in the Park where I think there was a council van but there were people up the hill and when I left at 4ish I was surprised to find as many people at the gates and Parliament as there were up at the stage which was a fair way into the Park.

      I don’t know how many were there but double Glasgow probably so if the police said 60,000 I wouldn’t quibble. If it was 100,000 I could believe it. Trouble is you see wild unsubstantiated numbers floating on the interwebs. I have no idea where the 193,000 comes from. People shouldn’t quote numbers they can’t link to.

      No real surprise from the Unionist on Sunday duo this morning that McGinty palmed the Council estimate off as a police estimate and Garavelli contorted the polls to show that SNP members cared more about the country (UK) than independence. I do care that the UK is leaving the EU but that doesn’t mean that I would sacrifice Scotland just to make 1950s Bexitland slightly less awful. What planet would that happen on?

      They scooted off the march and the SNP conference pretty quickly actually although to be fair the US supreme court nomination did deserve time. I didn’t think they deconstructed that farce particularly well either so I switched off at that point.

    165. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The Establishment is struggling lads, they’ve got HYA FUD working a double shift this weekend.

      The turn-out for the march yesterday must have scared them shitless, that they have to put our resident troll on double-time.

      Ignore it people.

    166. galamcennalath says:

      People’s Vote. Here’s what I think is needed …..

      Scotland and NI have already answered the question about the EU firmly and that opinion has become even more pro EU. There is no point in asking that question again.

      There needs to be genuine Peoples’ Votes across these Isles … while England and Wales vote on Leave or Remain in the EU, Scotland and NI should be presented with a question which asks what they want in the event of England and Wales opting to Leave again.

    167. Bob Mack says:


      I feel your pain. Loser in so many things ain’t ya

    168. gus1940 says:

      It would appear that according to the metropolitan blats yesterday’s AUOB march and rally did’t happen.

    169. Petra says:

      @ Dorothy at 8:03am …… “I wish I had hirpled over to Edinburgh.”

      Dorothy I was talking to some women sitting on a bench yesterday. They didn’t join the march, rather just made their way to Edinburgh, found a spot on the route, plunked themselves down and draped the saltire around their shoulders. I noticed a number of other people sitting outside cafes and so on who didn’t look as though they had joined the march either. Their very presence however made a massive positive impact, imo, and of course they had the time to talk to, and hopefully convert, others (as I managed to do with one woman while having a coffee before the march set off). Just a thought for the future, for people unable to march for whatever reason. Contingent of course on the weather being fine.


      @ Marga at 2:15am ….. “Count your blessings folks that you’re only in Brexit Britain and not in Spain.”

      Thanks for taking the time to post on here Marga. We’ve still got a challenge on our hands in relation to getting our Independence mostly due to having no control whatsoever over broadcasting in Scotland. Something I know that you have, well at least up until recently. You on the other hand are subject to Spain’s ruthless and violent behaviour. We can only hope that your politicians return home safely in the very near future and that the tables turn for you soon. Best wishes to you: ALL in Catalonia.


      @ Robertknight at 3:30am …..”whichever cop started the rumour that their estimate was 100,000 might I suspect have been on the windup.”

      I was one of the people who overheard a Policeman pass on information to someone via his radio, to the effect that there was WELL over 100,000 people on the march. I doubt he was mucking about for my (our) benefit. Later on I questioned further policemen, on separate occasions, about the numbers. Some were loathe to give out any information but one said, at least 80,000.

      You come across as fitting the bill as a member of the group that Stu refers to as the soor gr*pe crew … and I suspect that it’s you that’s on the “windup”. If you were there yesterday you would know fine well that there was over 20,000 / 30,000 people marching. However it doesn’t matter one way or another what people like you say, those who do matter such as Nicola Sturgeon and more so Ruth Davidson and T May will know exactly how many people were there yesterday, and that was, “Well over 100,000.”


      Well it was a brilliant day and thankfully all went well. HES has a great deal to think about now in relation to the banning of “political” events, not least of all flying the Union fleg over our castles. On the other hand expect to see other “political” groups demand the same rights now. We can’t complain when we see Orange Order yobs flying the Union flag, banging their drums, tooting their flutes and lying drinking buckie at Holyrood Park and on Arthur’s Seat.

      AUOB, imo, should also be thinking about their behaviour and in future keeping everyone up to date, on a regular basis, on their site about what’s actually going on. Finding out 2/3 weeks before a march that there’s massive problems looming isn’t good enough. Problems that could have led to a disaster for our cause. I also reckon that Police Scotland didn’t exactly appreciate being held to ransom by AUOB either. Time for AUOB to get their act together and cut out their infighting. I’d also like an update on what happened to my donation in relation to the AUOB appeal for money to fund bands at marches. Maybe they could get round to posting some info on their site about this too?

    170. Lochside says:

      Re. the numbers…I marched in ’92 with the Scotland United demo along Princess st. and it was estimated at 30,000. The 2013 one from the High St. up to Calton Hill was estimated (wrongly) at 40,000. Yesterday a senior cop outside Holyrood informed me the parade took 3 hours..and was at least 50,000..(at which I snorted derision, naturally). We left the High ST. near the front and halted at Holyrood to watch for 2 and a half hours the phalanxes of people marching round the corner from the Royal Mile.

      I have never seen such volumes….12 -15 wide…with at least three bands adding a wonderful atmosphere to the chanting etc.
      We walked to the park and the vision of the figures holding saltires on the ridge of the crags was emotionally overwhelming. As far as the eye could see saltires and other other nations’ flag, and happy, joyous Scottish people of all ethnicity having a massive picnic.

      We didn’t listen to the speeches… the Scots don’t need leaders to articulate what we want…..the people have spoken, yesterday proved it, all ages and backgrounds under one banner, confident and determined….. and it’s time for our leaders to listen and act upon it.

    171. Ken500 says:

      Holyrood elections. Just give them another three years under Labour Richard Leonard, Davidson’s replacement, Libdems useless and Green reneging on their own policies. All telling even more lies. The continuing Brexit shambles. To lose even more support. See any manipulated Polls in that situation. Changing of the deck chairs.

    172. gus1940 says:


      For weeks the Metropolitan blats have carried daily items bigging up somebody called Princess Eugenie who apparently is getting married.

      Now, they are doing the same for the other ugly sister and her loathesome publicity seeking mother.

      The Courier has now joined in the fun of this pathetic attempt to endear us to even more parasites.

    173. Ken500 says:

      Do the trolls never get sick fed up of their ill informed nonsense. They certainly get other people sick fed up of it.

      Thanks Rev Stu for all you do getting rid of them.

    174. Cageybee says:

      Thanks for the kind wishes and encouragement. I had intended to whole thing and knew that the result would be a certain amount of discomfort ( a price I waa more than willing to pay) but made the error of using carrubers close rather than the jeffrey street slope. As others have said we need to be seen to be seen despite the BBCs best efforts to belittle u. I spoke to a number of people tourut and new students. People let load of folk cut across the march (try doing that on an OO parade at your peril) Glad i was able to be there it does morale no end of good to see such a happy ebulliant throng

    175. bookie from hell says:

      bbc coverage

      news24 sat – zilch
      breakfast- a few thousand
      lunchtime – big march (internet images forced them to change info )

    176. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 7 October, 2018 at 12:07 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers So on your argument any TV platform needs to be given to the ‘people of Scotland’ not Sturgeon as First Minister as it is they not her who are sovereign!”

      Are you really as stupid as your comments here on Wings make you seem?

      Either that or I am far more inarticulate than I think I am.

      No I do not in any way claim or even suggest what you seem to imagine I claim.

      The people of Scotland are, without any doubt, legally sovereign as the Westminster Establishment has acknowledged by refusing to contest the Scottish, “Claim of Right”, that factually predates even the Westminster claim of a, “Union of the Crowns”, in 1603.

      Just for the record there was indeed a Union of the Crowns in 1603 – but it was only a personal union for the individual Scot who inherited the crowns of England, Wales & Ireland. Which is why Westminster illegally engineered the Treaty of Union of 1706/7. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if both kingdoms had united in 1603?

      The person who instigated the Darien Expeditions was the same London Scot, William Patterson, who had previously instigated the fund that resulted in the formation of the Bank of England and who was in the pay of Sir Robert Harley who was the English Government’s Spy master. As was Daniel Defoe the English author and English Government political pamphlet writer. Defoe was also in Edinburgh and had the ear of the landed Scots gentry who were also the Scottish Parliamentarians. The Treaty was forced upon Scotland and thus illegal under both Scots and English law.

      So to return to the main point of what I actually said and not to what you seem to think I said:- The people of Scotland have been legally sovereign under international law since 1320 and the Holy Roman Se acceptance of the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320. At that time The Holy Roman Se was the international authority of the whole of Christendom, (basically Europe).

      The Treaty of Union, (Article of Union number 19), clearly states that the two kingdoms legal system have to remain independent from each other forever, (due to then being incompatible with each other). The incompatibility being that in the English Kingdom the shared Monarch was/is legally sovereign but in Scotland the people are sovereign and the shared monarch is their protector of the people’s sovereignty.

      So here is where you got it wrong – when the people of Scotland go to the polls and elect a person as anything from a community councillor to an councillor. MEP, MP, MSP or whatever they elect someone who legally represents the legally sovereign people of Scotland. i.e. the elected person is the people’s delegate.

      When the legal subjects of the monarch of the Kingdom of England elect someone to office they, not being legally sovereign, are choosing someone to be the legally sovereign monarch of the Kingdom of England’s delegate.

      In short we Scots choose out delegate to represent us but in the English Kingdom the Monarch’s subjects choose delegate of their monarch’s sovereignty.

      So no Nicola Sturgeon does not have legal sovereignty and that is why she has always insisted she must have a mandate to do anything. In point of fact, (as the SNP party National Conference begins today), the SNP leaders or party officials cannot make or change party policy.

      Only the delegates sent to national conference can do that and Nicola Sturgeon has exactly the same number of votes on that as every other card carrying member of the SNP.

      Remember also that Nicola, as Party Leader, has different responsibilities to the party members as she has to the electorate as First Minister.

      I’ll explain that thus, As First Minister her duty is to serve the entire electorate of all political views.

      As Party Leader her duty is to only party members. Thing is, and Nicola has always had her priorities right, her duty as FM comes first. In any case, as Party Leader, she only has one vote like every other party member and part officials cannot dictate party policy – the members do that vie delegates to national conference.

      You really do need to understand that when it comes to Westminster and the Union that Westminster has acted illegally since before the Treaty of Union was being forced upon Scotland.

      It will, almost certainly, eventually end up in the International courts – and that is why, Nicola Sturgeon, as a trained and previously working Lawyer, is very, very careful of what her duties consist of.

    177. Artyhetty says:

      The march and rally yesterday was superb. I was late in arriving, 2 hours in fact, and the march was still going on down the Royal Mile. A great sight with slatires everywhere.

      Great speakers and music, great singing in the street, and fabulous atmosphere and Saltires, which looked especially wonderful adorning the hillside of the crags overlooking the stage. 🙂

      I had a fabulous meander up and around the crags to boot,(though was a bit horrified to see tourists just about hanging off the edge, some even with tots in arms, to take snapshots though! Crikey) but what a sight, with a good pair of specs,:-/ could see way, way up north, lovely mountains in the distance, on such a clear day.

      Scotland is a spectacularly beautiful country. We must not allow the Brutish Britnats to ruin it, by dumping their toxic waste and fracking, and by destroying our communities like they have done before.

      The crags were quarried a long time ago, to er, build many of London’s landmarks, I think even London Bridge. It was a last minute decision not to take the whole lot down! What I don’t get is why the Glenfinnan viaduct was built using concrete, (a cheap alternative?) when Scotland was awash with all kinds of rock, and being quarried to kingdom come, to build the rUK!

    178. admiral says:

      bookie from hell says:
      7 October, 2018 at 1:28 pm
      bbc coverage
      news24 sat – zilch
      breakfast- a few thousand
      lunchtime – big march (internet images forced them to change info )

      Half a dozen luvvies from London held a protest about Brexit at the Edinburgh Festival and the MSM en masse went doolally with blanket coverage! LOL!

    179. James Westland says:

      O/T a bit. Salisbury Crags getting a mention. One of the most important locations in the history of geology. James Hutton observed conclusive evidence that the rocks had been molten at one time and intruded the sedimentary layers. “Huttons Section” the location is called. Globally significant.

      Also worth mentioning that the rock of the Crags is a type called teschenite. If you do a Google Image Search on “teschenite” it ia amazing the number of pics of Salisbury Crags that come up!

    180. Thepnr says:

      That’s my wife and I back from Edinburgh after a great day and night. I met up with some Wingers at the top of the Royal Mile while my wife went with her friends to the bottom of Johnstone Terrace to drop of some bags at the foodbank collection point.

      I watched the start of the march going past and over a hour later had a text from my wife saying “Still not moving!”. Eventually you got to were she knew I was waiting and proceeded to walk right by LOL.

      I ended up waiting for the end of the marchers to pass our bit of the Royal Mile and joined them on the end of the line. If I was to estimate numbers then in excess of 50,000 absolutely and 60 to 7o thousand would be my guess.

      When I did reach the Parliament building at Holyrood it was around 15:45 and I finally met up again with my wife. A great day with the most amazing atmosphere created by the people themselves. I’ve never in my life seen so many smiles and such belief on so many faces. Just brilliant.

    181. frogesque says:

      @ James Westland: 2.05

      I’ve a copy of Hutton’s book, Hutton’s Arse. It really was the begining of geology as a science.

    182. James Barr Gardner says:

      4 people abreast (single carriageway) walking past a fixed point = 400 per minute, therefore 2 hours = 48,000.

      However when both carriageways are used for 2 hours = 96000.

      So when Bikers for Yes and their pillion passengers, Folk running the Stalls and Folk who came directly to Freedom Park plus those on Salisbury Crags, 100,000 plus cannot be disputed !

    183. Meg merrilees says:

      Best bit for me – we were having our picnic of a club biscuit each – we know how to live!

      A man sitting down behind us was quite talkative and was beginning to sing. I had a quick look round and noticed his half bottle of refreshment was diminishing as his songs turned into Gaelic – very pleasant. Then another song, also pleasant.

      Then, an energetic kilted younger man walked past holding a ‘Stornoway’ banner. Hearing the Gaelic song, he looked up and shouted, ” Alasdair!’ .
      There was a hand shake and they launched into a Gaelic conversation of which I understood:
      ‘How are you man? Nae bad, and you? ‘
      He helped his friend up and they walked off into the crowd.

      Imagine coming all that distance to Edinburgh and meeting someone you know – pure brilliant.

    184. A Macrae says:

      I’m not a “Yes” voter and was in town for a “Photowalk”. I arrived at the spot just down from St.Giles, where the union jacks were and spent the next 2 hours mostly standing on a bollard doing “Face in the crowd” photography. Loads of walkers would have seen me. Eight times, I spent a minute counting the people passing me. The average was very close to one hundred. That equates to 12,000 on the actual walk. (People were strolling, not marching, I’m happy to say. we have all the marchers we need in Scotland. There were many disabled people in the parade.

      Apart from some (mostly good humoured) comments and hooter blowing at the hapless union jack chap shouting quite incomprehensibly into his microphone,(in 2 hours, I understood not a word) it all seemed pretty friendly- lots of dogs and kids involved, plus a few baffled tourists. Most folk were smiling.
      I followed the tail enders to Holyrood, so I don’t know how many folk accompanied the 100-odd bikers direct there, but unless that number was over 8000, I’d say the 20k figure is in the ball park. Maybe 25. A big event by any standards, but both the “few thousand” and “100,000” estimates are well off. There was a kestrel over St. Giles, but I don’t know if it was pro- or anti-. Thanks to the lady with the bubbles. I got an interesting shot there.

    185. robertknight says:


      Forgive my lack of expertise in counting heads from the rear of a march and not having heard 1st hand any utterance over a radio by a policeman.

      I’ve no idea how many bodies it takes to fill the length and breadth of Johnston Terrace, but having experienced multiple marches over the last 30+ years I know that official and unofficial figures differ hugely from whatever gets reported in the meedja and am content therefore not to get hung up on them, unlike others it would appear…

      Having read your comments to her, I’ll not relay my 85 year old mother’s advice as to what use you can put sour grapes to. She’s not at her best today, bless her; all those cobbles took it out on her knees. But she did enjoy waving her anti-Brexit placard, (kindly lent to her by the lady from the international school), at the idiot wearing the butcher’s apron. (So much so that I had to stop her going back for a repeat performance). I just hope the ‘Yoon Goon’ filming the march posts the footage of her online – it’ll make her day!

    186. Legerwood says:

      Artyhetty says:
      7 October, 2018 at 1:46 pm

      Re Glenfinnan viaduct. The local stone, schist I think, was too hard to quarry. Bringing stone in from elsewhere in the quantity required would have been prohibitevly expensive given the state of the roads – that was why they were building the railway. Furthermore the contractor who built the viaduct, McAlpines, was a great fan of concrete – nickname Concrete Bob a bit of a giveaway.

    187. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers Yet after all that waffle Scots still voted 55% to stay in the UK in 2014 and on present polling even after Brexit Yes would only have a chance of getting over 50% with No Deal and even that is not certain, Panelbase today had it No 52% Yes 48% even with No Deal

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      I got the 10.30 bus from Glasgow, was standing in a long queue there and luckily people I’d been blethering to told me they were calling booked people up, I just made it! I heard the bus people talking about an extra bus, but even then I think some would have been going over later. Thanks whoever for the Lothian Road tip by the way, that’s what I and most of the bus did.

      So, maybe 12.00 to 12.15, people at Usher Hall (I used the loo in Shaespeare’s) and still some crossing over the other side of Lothian Road, walked down and though the wee market, and the queue, not totally compact, was down just to Castle Terrace, end of Johnstone Terrace. Sorry, just checked map to see where roads start, and some were ON Castle Terrace already, where it goes over Kings Stables Road. This about 12.15 (don’t wear a watch).

      Walked up a bit, talked to Paula a bit and people were coming up making it more compact but many were staying where they were, down to Castle Terrace and maybe even beyond. Then I made my way up past castle, to where steps coming down had a queue of people waiting to join. Talked to a policeman as is my wont, and he said 15,000 they were estimating from the people in Johnston Terrace. But it already stretched beyond that, plus the joiners, and was getting more compact as people passed up. I got a bit further then the march started slowly – no idea how far that was from the front (quite a way).

      It’s certainly a lot more than 20,000.

      I did hear a very muffled bang at what would have been close to 1, the march started shortly afterwards where I was. Maybe a misfire, accidental of course …

    189. Simon Curran says:

      If anyone wants to count out how many marchers there were there’s comprehensive footage here. Best of luck.
      I’ll just settle for there was a lot!

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh yes, YES Bikers. More than when I was last at George Square 2014, I’d have reckoned 300 but The National says 250. I should have counted I was in prime position by accident. Plus one pedal cyclist 🙂

    191. robertknight says:

      Cheers for the link Simon – didn’t spot us until 2:15:45 ! (Thank goodness for the 15 second skip function!)

      Had no idea there were so many ahead of us. Pity no birds-eye view from a drone available, unless someone has one?

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      I blethered to a lot of people by the way, as is my wont. “Just” randomers, and the amount of knowledge they (we) have is absolutely outstanding. Journalists like MacWhirter should have been there round about 11 and instead of “interviewing” people, just had a blether themselves. They might not make such fools of themselves in their articles then.

    193. Artyhetty says:

      Re; robertknight@6.05pm

      Not sure re; drones, or whether they are allowed in the streets, probably not, flying them over/in all of Edinburgh’s parks is banned, I do know that.

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see you’re still a saddo cultural chauvinist. I suppose you support the Tory ‘plan’ to Brexit? That would definitely suggest you don’t support the principle of universal human rights.

    195. HYUFD says:

      CameronB Brodie So ‘universal human rights’ means Scots can vote for independence from the UK if they decide to but the English and Welsh can’t vote to leave the EU if they want to?

      In any case May is moving towards a deal with the EU

    196. CameronB brodie says:

      No, you don’t understand the principle of universal rights. Has Scotland not just been told it would not get an opportunity to determine it’s own future. You’re a Tory, aren’t you?

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      If England and Wales want to leave the EU they can do, that’s their democratic right, but it is democratically wrong for them to drag Scotland and Northern Ireland – or Gibraltar – with them, when we voted to Remain, Scotland by a margin of 62% Remain, 38% Leave.

    198. Ghillie says:

      Hallo Cameron B 🙂

      Hey thepnr! 🙂

      Glad you and both made it home safely =)

      What a day 🙂 🙂 🙂

      xxx to all who were there and especially those who joined The March in spirit 🙂

    199. CameronB Brodie says:

      Can you not see how your argument denies reality. That the non-British nationalist kind of reality mind. Again, I’ll ask what your frame of reference is? Also, what do you thick gives you the right to comment on Scottish matters, given you are not registered to vote here? Feeling paternalistic, or perhaps posesive?

      The Right to Development at a glance

      What is the Right to Development?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      It was certainly a day to lift the spirits. 😉

    201. Thepnr says:

      Hi Ghillie

      Twas a fine day indeed and you brightened it up some more 🙂

    202. HYUFD says:

      CameronBBrodie According to Panelbase today the SNP and Greens will lose their majority at the next Holyrood elections and Sturgeon will only be able to govern with Ruth Davidson’s support if she wants to keep out Leonard, Labour and the LDs. Davidson will require no indyref2 as the price of her support

    203. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 If that was the case Yes would be well ahead in indyref polls after the Brexit vote, yet Panelbase today has No to independence ahead 56% to 44% with Scots and even in the event of a No Deal Brexit, which May is now likely to avoid, Yes are not always ahead either, Panelbase has No to independence ahead 52% to 48% with Scots even in the event of No Deal

    204. Chick McGregor says:

      I was there in ’92 when MacLeish, standing in for Dewar, who was ill, along with other party leaders signed the Claim of Right at the end of the march then got his arse reamed by Dewar for doing so. He has been unable to come of the fence ever since, ouch!

      IME that march was more like 60,000, all the more surprising since it came out of nowhere, no real precedence.

      Michael Ignatieff, then a renowned documentary maker, later a leader of the Liberal party, which had been the dominant political force in Canadafor years but which lost heavily under his leadership, made a documentary about the dangers of nationalism on the BBC in 1993 which featured the ’92 march.

      The end credits for that documentary were run over a crude flag I had made which featured a lion rampant and a Mouse rampant side by side.

      For the Edinburgh march this weekend I flew something like the fourth iteration of that

      This engendered so many positive comments on the march that I am now considering funding the purchase of several thousand stickers of it which might be used when the indyref2 campaign officially starts for people to stick up on wherever they deem appropriate.

      I realise, the connection to royalty might annoy the republican element but they are not the target recipients.

    205. yesindyref2 says:

      Stupefying Survation survey suggests Scotland will vote Yes to independence if there’s a No Deal Brexit

      Should Scotland be an independent country?
      Yes 46% (-1)
      No 54% (+1)

      In the event of Brexit:
      Yes 50%
      No 50%

      In the event of a no deal Brexit:
      Yes 52%
      No 48%

      Someone has been at those grapes to excess, and it ain’t SGP.

    206. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bollocks! What’s your knowledge base, the corporate media? Do you support the principle of universal human rights, or are you a Tory?

    207. CameronB Brodie says:

      Chick McGregor
      Wish I’d caught up with you and may others, but alas. I did bump into a few Wingers though, which was nice. Love the flag.

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t think most people know the Lion Rampant is only supposed to be flown for the royalty. Same as most don’t know that (I think) the union flag (jack) is only supposed to be flown by government, not citizens.

      I guess that means that 200 years ago, SiU would be taken to the Tower of London, and thence to a place of education where they’d be forced to wave the Saltire. Or something like that.

    209. I was at AUOB the march in Edinburgh on Saturday, and met up with many colleagues I hadn’t seen for a quite while.

      As for those SUI Brit nationalists, I didn’t and will never give them any kind thought whatsoever

    210. Wow, that list reads like a whose who of whom’s been attacking me on twitter lately, after reading a highly disturbing website on Steve Sayers I presumed they were all him. He talked of a list I was to go on, I’ve since had to add to my hosts file. They really didn’t like me picking off Disablists in Union’s big boss man/mutant, or being told we know all about who writes their letters, or how many Steve’s there are. Had no idea who SIU were at the time, UK Viscount Voice and Voice of the Viscounts more like. The ones with Ayrshire in their name amused me no end, no one here is proud of it to that extent, clearly a marketing exercise to be more Ayrshirian than thou whilst being Britania till they die because claiming they’re most Scottish fooled nobody, keep an eye on that deveopment.

      It’s tremendously easy to hijack their mainstream hashtags BTW, pointing out their demons to their few would-be voters who engage, and when charged, court cases for disablity hate crime charges is a must:

    211. Fred says:

      @ Chic, love the Rampant Moose kid!

      @ Cameron BB, lifted a few spirits masel on Saturday!

    212. bittie45 says:

      @ robertknight 6:05pm

      Depending on each council’s bye-laws, there should be no reason why a balloon/ kite with a small camera cannot be flown to record an aerial view of events for posterity. Would certainly help with evidence of numbers.,-events-and-activities/Kites/

    213. Cactus says:

      On Saturday, Edinburgh was and remains excellent, going on that turnout, ye can imagine the City of Edinburghs Yes2 vote will be well over the hauf-way mark, Yes next time, thx to the Embra Polis and safety wardens too, yee’s did a braw job on the march, very professional and friendly, Loved the horses tail.

      The Glasgow Yes2 vote should be well above three-score%, Yes this time, on an even higher Yes voter turnout.

      Aye, we enjoyed a wee drink in an Edinburgh pub somewhere high up on ‘the mile’ and once again, like previous, a natural phenomenon occurred…

      A brief shower came across and a full perfect rainbow formed, looking down the mile towards where we just came from.

      Three cheers for nature, again… 🙂

    214. Chick McGregor says:


      There was drone shots of the march as seen in this video.

      We were near the start of the march just a couple of thousand or so from the front. When we got to the park we waited until all the marchers got there took well over an hour after we arrived, but many people left after 20 mins, half an hour or so.

    215. bittie45 says:

      Chick McGregor

      Wow, incredible footage! – thanks for the link.

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