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Wings Over Scotland

The Slide

Posted on October 07, 2018 by

Especially alert readers may have noticed that we’ve had a new page on Wings for a while, maintaining a current list of Scottish newspaper circulations.

We were just checking it today and noticed that – seemingly unreported anywhere – the Scottish “regionals” had had their biannual figures published, so we thought we may as well keep you updated.


Press & Journal (Aberdeen) 45,935 (down 2%)
The Courier (Dundee) 34,260 (down 3%)
The Herald (Glasgow) 24,265 (down 6%)
Evening Express (Aberdeen) 21,003 (down 7%)
Evening Times (Glasgow) 19,130 (down 8%)
The Scotsman (Edinburgh) 13,739 (down 8%)
Evening Telegraph (Dundee) 12,351 (down 7%)
Paisley Daily Express (Paisley) 4,378 (down 3%)

Total: 175,061 (down 5%)


Evening News (Edinburgh) 16,093 (no update, Jan-Dec 2017 stats)
The National (Scotland) 9,746 (no update, Jan-Dec 2017 stats)
Greenock Telegraph (Greenock) 8,958 (no update, Jan-Dec 2017 stats)


Sunday Herald 16,345 (down 11%)
Scotland On Sunday 12,996 (no update, Jan-Dec 2017 stats)

Those will of course be the last ever figures for the Sunday Herald, and it marked its closure with the biggest drop of all the papers posting figures – a far cry from the heady days of almost 50,000 it rocketed to after coming out in favour of independence in the spring of 2014.

At the rates of decline recorded above, though, it won’t be long until other papers who haven’t managed to prolong their lives for a couple of years by appealing to the half of Scots who back a Yes vote join it in the dustbin of history.

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239 to “The Slide”

  1. Paul miller says:

    We’re gonna need some more Local Democracy Reporters methinks.

  2. Bob Mack says:

    In a previous existence I bought a Daily paper, and often 3 on a Sunday. Now ,the majority reflect neither my belief or interests. I have come to view them as an instrument of Unionist supremacy in a burgeoning Scotland which is contrary to everything they want us to believe.

    I no longer buy anything but the National, even in spite of its limitations.

    Do I suffer from being so I’ll informed ? Not a bit. I now read the news online and dissect it at my leisure.

    It has to be said that reading Wings has become my daily norm, and indeed throughout the day. Informed,evidence based, and thorough. What paper rivals that today?

  3. Dr Jim says:

    Failure to report is now reported as just failure

    Yet still they flail and rant and defend their lofty position as failures because the populace are too thick to understand their genius
    So thick are we, they believe, we haven’t noticed they keep telling us we’re thick while staring bewildered at their own sales figures

    They say education under the SNP is failing

    Apparently not

  4. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    The Regime will definitely have to pour more democracy funding into the propaganda rags.

    The problem is even daft folk are starting to realise that the rags are repeatedly printing pish.

    Who, even rabid Yoons, wants to pay good money for propaganda from the anti Scottish parties.

    You can kid some of the people etc.

  5. Caledonia says:

    The press & journal deserves all it gets full of snpbad on a daily bases
    Even the letters page is full of the green ink gang
    Batshit jill has a letter in on a weekly basis despite a few people i know writing in to complain

    Btw i dont buy it only read it at work

  6. Mike says:

    Good riddance to bad rubbish. The only problem I see is the decline is far too slow.

  7. Dr Jim says:

    Reports coming in confirming Police Scotland have announced
    193.000 attended the Independence march in Edinburgh

    Scotland has indeed become the media

  8. Astonished says:

    I love the discredited BBC term “local democracy reporters”.

    Like the democratic peoples republic of Germany or the democratic republic of congo, the word democratic is trying to hide the underlying malevolent totalitarianism.

    I do wish SNP msps would point this out.

  9. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dr Jim, one of the reasons I read Wos btl is because most people back up their claims with links to source . Saying reports coming in say 193k attnded the march is utter bullshit and is the sort of crap that has led to the dramatic drop in newspaper circulation. I have checked Edinburgh Police’s interweb presence and the only figure they have mentioned is the 20k accredited to a City Council source, having been there I think that 20k figure is as ludicrous as your 193k figure.

  10. Shug says:

    Did you see the bbc politics show, a small piece about 10s of thousands in edinburgh but the camera shot was of the 8 orange lodgers waiving their union jacks
    Has somone in the herald got a new job
    Ifthey must manipulate the news i would be better pleased if they did not insult my intelligence with such amateurish material

  11. Dr Jim says:

    Lenny Hartley

    If you’re having difficulty reading read it again, I said reports coming in, at no time did I say it was fact and no link provided because it is *reports coming in* and those figures are not my figures they are *reports coming in* I’ll ignore your insulting stupidity for not realising that

  12. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dr Jim and ill ignore your insulting stupidity believing unsubstantiated bullshit that there was 193 thousand people on the March yesterday

  13. HandandShrimp says:

    Used to buy the Scotsman before Andrew Neil took it towards some sort of Daily Mail tribute act. I can hardly believe that it has declined to such low levels.

    There was once a time when the newspapers reached every household with some houses taking two or three papers. Those days are long gone.

  14. HandandShrimp says:

    Talking of papers I would like to go and get the Sunday National but as beautiful as yesterday was today is as vile.

  15. Dr Jim says:

    Failure to understand words again leads to you complaining about something you say I believe when I never said that either you’re reinterpreting my words….funnily enough just like newspapers do, hence their failure

  16. Ken500 says:

    Just like the unionist vote plummeting in Scotland, as predicted.

  17. David McCann says:

    Why is it that in this day and age of drone photography,there are no accurate figures on how many actually attended the Edinburgh rally, or for that matter any rally?

  18. Josef Ó Luain says:

    @ Lenny Hartley

    Well said, Bud. Why the fuck would anybody post shite like that?

  19. Effijy says:

    I wonder if at the next march for Independance the organisers
    Appoint someone with click counter to estimate those who actually marched?

    At the final gathering, prior to the speeches a request could be made for a hands up on
    Who has come directly to the venue and didn’t march.

    Still a degree of estimation required but I’d be happy to accept it rather than any BBC propaganda
    Or lie from the UK media.

  20. Ken500 says:

    There was a wonderful march yesterday. One of the largest ever. People can consider what numbers they like.

    Thanks to all who made the March for the millions who could not. An historical event. Wonderful.

  21. HandandShrimp says:

    It was a wonderful march made all the sweeter with the stage and music and Tommy Shepherd giving a rousing speech.

    Delighted that HES were put back in their box (as I am sure the chap who had the ice cream van was 🙂 )

  22. Robert Peffers says:

    If anyone is interested here’s a nice link to the SNP Conference live:-

  23. Marcia says:

    Strip out the papers that are taken by public libraries, how many do they actual sell?

    The SNP Conference has just started on YouTube

  24. Famous15 says:

    SNP Conference on Parliament Channel.

  25. gus1940 says:

    Given thew reputation of Scotland’s weather surely the fact that all the AUOB marches and rallies have been blessed by good weather indicates that the gods are on the side of Indy.

  26. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: numbers on the march.

    Last night, I saw ONE retweet on Twitter. There was no link to substantiate it. It alleged that info from CCTV/police cameras counted 193,000 on the march and something like 386 YES Bikers.

    I’ve been looking today for further info on this but have found none. Looks like the claims are now being disseminated, but without a link to substantiate.

  27. AllyPally says:

    I still think Wings should crowdfund buying the Scotsman.

    What’s it currently worth?

  28. Clydebuilt says:

    Dr. Jim

    Aye yesterday was a great day for the marchers and Scotland. . . . . With the BBC quoting the police quoting a “Council Source” .claiming 20,000 . . . . Their nervousness is displayed for all to see.

    Would have been usefull to have had the event videod by drone or from a high vantage point.

  29. mr thms says:

    You can watch the SNP Conference on BBC Parliament.

  30. chic says:

    A line graph of these circulations v time might be a useful addition to the WoS circulation page.

  31. Fred says:

    @ Clydebuilt, there was a drone over Holyrood Park!

  32. Robert Peffers says:

    @Astonished says: 7 October, 2018 at 1:13 pm:

    ” … I do wish SNP msps would point this out.

    And where is it, and who is it, you wish to print, broadcast and tweet about it if they did, Astonished?

    Only yesterday I pointed out that there wasn’t a single report, (when I commented), about the Edinburgh March on any media source except by BBC Scotland’s text service and that was designed to play down the event.

    The same BBC text service made no mention on other BBC regional areas nor on the national network on Headlines, Politics, other regions, UK news or any other heading they had. Yet they reported upon very minor events from all over the World.

    The Westminster owned or controlled media doesn’t just lie and distort it omits to publish, broadcast or mention things, “They don’t want you to know”.

  33. Calum McKay says:

    I believe the press should have a broad range of political views and opinions. It is needed to inform the public, caveat being, the press (I include bbc & STV), must within reason, tell the truth, albeit with a political slant.

    Sadly in Scotland we have 95% of the press and media catering for 50% of the people, and 5% of the the press catering for the remainng 50% of the people.

    Even sadder is that the 95% of Scottish press invent stories, misinform, take stories direct from the opposition parties and present news to Scots from a supportive british perspective.

    I conclude the 50% of people supporting independence have byenlarge deserted the main stream media in Scotland, whilst the natural process of web takes its course with others.

    Scottish news papers and bbc have taken Scots for fools for years, it’s now pay back time!

  34. William Bryan says:

    Dr Jim,
    It was.Phantom Power videod from a drone seen on twitter.

  35. Lenny Hartley says:

    Brian Doonthetoon re figure of 193k its Standard operating procedure, make outrageous claims of attendance which does two things, it distracts from the real incredible numbers which were there and it sows doubt on any attendence claims in future as its its such an inflated number. Classic Black Ops at work.

  36. Thepnr says:

    So the slide goes on, no surprise. There were many more marchers in Edinburgh yesterday than the combined sales of the Herald and the Scotsman.

    I doubt many of those on the march would even consider buying one of those rags so no wonder their sales are heading over the cliff.

  37. Clydebuilt says:

    Fred @2.43

    Thanks for that . . . I didn’t see it, nor did Del Boy of Independence Live.

    Hope to see some of the Drones video output . . . That should help to put the Brit Nat claims back in their box.

  38. frogesque says:

    @ gus1940: 2.21

    Swinging up from Princes Street Gardens round the Castle to Johnston Terrace the tall cranes were complimented by a beautiful, bright sun dog.

    Just knew it would be a great day!

    As for numbers, someone, somewhere will know, spooks gotta spook an’ a’ that. Obviously shitting bricks by not confirming figures. Me? Frankly my dear, I don’t give-a-damn! What counts is that I made it as did many thousands of others and the moon howlers are singing a worried song.

  39. @Robert Peffers

    What`s the script for watching youtube `live` and having/not having a broadcast licence.

  40. The Ministry of Truth.
    Yesterday in Edinburgh nothing happened according to every newspaper except the exceptional National and the grudging Herald.
    The newsstand at my corner shop was pure Winston Smith, 1984 Brit Nat pufferie.
    It is small wonder that nobody is buying their Dead Tree Scrolls.
    The online Herald Britland has a picture of the 24 Holocaust denying Brit Nats waving their butcher’s aprons next tot he Marching tens of thousands.
    Sheer Big Brother telephotographic lies and Doublethink.
    Who the hell is propping up these patently loss making rags.
    Has Arlene bunged them some of her inexhaustible supply of Dark Money?
    I witnessed Gordon Brewer have a break down live on TV today.
    Three times he referred to the SNP’s tactics on Brexit and a Second Referendum on Independence as ‘waffle’
    My new nickname for The Droop? Waffle Brewer.
    He quite literally lost it when constantly talking over, interrupting, and quite frankly insulting, Ian Blackford on Sunday Politics.
    Later Kevin Pringle, who now writes for the Sunday Times, touted the Brit Nat Fabian Crap about postponing Inyref 2 until after the next Scottish GE in 2021.
    There’s a man who has gone over to the Dark Side.
    The Scottish Government has a democratic mandate Now.
    We are to suffer two years of Tory Brexit before we vote on whether we can have another vote on Indyref 2?
    Aye, right, Kevin.
    Of course Waffle Brewer agreed with that, and suggested that the Scottish Labour Branch Ofice would be delighted if Indyref 2 was kicked down the road another 2 1/2 years.
    What fucking privileged planet do these people live on?
    Next April, Esther McVague, DWP Minister, has admitted that when UC is rolled out nationally, recipients will see their benefits reduced by £50 a week, or £2,600 a year.
    Add to that the impact of Brexit, a drop in families’ incomes by £2400 a year, and Kevin, who must have a bob or two to suggest such a disastrous and fatal delay, suggests that we just put up with it, and watch as 12,000 UK citizens a year die of Blue/ Yellow/ Red Tory cuts.
    These people either have no heart, or are as thick as mince, or greedy self serving mouthpieces for the Elite, or have no concept what it is like to be poor, or, more likely, don’t give a flying fuck.
    I’ll not shed a tear when these paper Brit Nat pamphlets close.

  41. frogesque says:

    @ Thepnr 3.00

    Short may their demise be. Sad thing is, our new Indy Scotland will need a fair, honest and unbiased media but we have little chance of any change beforehand.

    I would rather wipe my backside with nettles wrapped in thistle leaves than resort to any Unionist rag.

    Irrelevant point, probably not of much interest, a very fine silky cloth can be made from nettles which will grow vigorously on human or other byproducts.

  42. Daisy Walker says:

    I was at the march yesterday wi me Dad.

    I can confirm the crowd size as easily more than a mickle and definitely a muckle, in fact, quite the most muckle I’ve ever seen in this country.

    And what an atmosphere. Superb. The flags on the hillside as we came walking round the corner of the parliament were inspirational. Well done to all.

    Indy Bikers, I thought they’d never end, they just kept coming, and coming, and coming (I wanted to cross the road, so I know!), but my god it was good to see them.

    It feels to me like we’re over the line folks (don’t worry I’m not talking about slacking off). ts just a feeling.

    Previous marches had the feel of intending to inspire and hope. This march had the feel of ‘this is done, lets get the paperwork sorted, and get on with it’.

    We joined the march at North Bridge at 1315 hrs, got to the park just before 1400 hrs. I went up the crags and looked down at the parliament, and the marchers kept coming, and coming and coming. They were still arriving at 1500hrs. What an amazing view.

    The park itself, with the hill there as a balcony, is a fantastic site. And the acoustics from the stage carried brilliantly.

    Really good speeches – Philipa Whitford – brilliant as usual. Really good to hear Tommy Shepherd as well – ‘we have to up our game.’ Well said.

    Tommy Sherridon – I have reservations (and admiration) about this guy – but fair do’s tae him. He could not have been clearer when he said, ‘as a socialist, we have to lend our vote to the SNP, its the only left of centre party with a chance of being elected, it s the only party that’s going to deliver Independence’.

    Well done to Indylive for the live streaming and AUOB for all their hard work.

    Well done everyone.

  43. Helpmaboab says:

    My last fond memory of the Daily Retard was when they published “Angus Og.”(Late eighties?)

    I stopped taking the Scotsman when Andrew Neil gutted it down to a fillet-of-hard-right-unionism.

    I gave up on the Herald too long ago to recall exactly when.

    I still buy The Courier occasionally for Rab McNeill, its local reporting and the TV listings. This can’t last much longer because they also employ the exceptionally unhinged Jenny Hjul.

    Soon, newspapers will play no part in my life. I can’t say that I care.

  44. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Here’s the link for Phantom Power’s published drone footage:-

    and another, at the start:-

  45. Petra says:

    @ Effijy at 1:47pm …….. “At the final gathering, prior to the speeches a request could be made for a hands up on who has come directly to the venue and didn’t march.”

    Effijy, there’s no doubt that a number of people would have gone directly to Holyrood Park. Then there was those who didn’t march or go to the park at all. Then there was loads, and I mean loads, of people leaving the park LONG before people had even arrived and that included Joanna Cherry, Michelle Thompson, Craig Murray and Prof Mark McNaught. Speeches in fact had been made long before everyone had arrived. You could basically tell nothing at all in relation to overall numbers at the final gathering.

    Surely someone could set up a camera and film the march from beginning to end and position a few people in the park from the word go to take a (non-marching) head count?

  46. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    On second thoughts, that second one looks like it was shot from the castle ramparts.

  47. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Here’s Independence Live’s time-lapse of the entire march passing the camera:-

  48. frogesque says:

    Just seen what looks like drone footage of the rally.

    On Facebook, taken by Phantom Power. Bloody fantastic!

    Getting widely shared so maybe someone more computer literate can get a linky up??

  49. frogesque says:

    Lol, Brian Doonthetoon has already posted link to Phantom Power drone footage

    Waves the BDTT, good to meet you and the rest of the Fife Vile Cybernats on the slope.

  50. Kevin says:

    Dearie-me. If news print circulation is down it’s because every store, shop, petrol station and supermarket that I shop from, in any part of Scotland, seem to have piles of newspapers hidden from view. I’ve seen them turned face-down, concealed under the National, dropped down rear of stall, stuffed behind boxes of cereal and, well, generally made unavailable – this phenomenon is more apparent during those times of silly, anti-Scottish lies and fabricated headlines.
    Usually I sigh, then continue with my shopping.

  51. ahundredthidiot says:

    AUOB march in EDI

    three men and a dug

    honest guv

  52. Clydebuilt says:

    SNP conference, after a difficult delegate, mikes apeared to be switched off, cameras either were distant from back of room, or behind speakers. At 4pm BBC stopped coverage, with no reason given, Internet coverage stopped around the time also. . . . Must’ve been interesting topic.

  53. R4 says:

    Over the last few weeks my digital recorder hasn’t been recording the first 15 mins or FMQ’s, therefore missing Ruth’s questions. Has anyone else been so lucky, or is it just me?

  54. Iain says:

    As I have said on many occasions that the Scottish press have hastened their demise by their anti Scottish attitudes.
    They are truly reaping what they have sown.
    I wonder who will be first to throw in the towel and call in the receivers.
    Their end can’t come soon enough.

  55. George Litts says:

    Do these numbers include the freebies that are seen more and more at airports and the like?

  56. Sarah says:

    I don’t know how I missed seeing cearc in Edinburgh yesterday given there were so few Yessers on the march, according to the BBC etc etc – about the same number as of British Nationalists, apparently.

    It was a very good day: having walked in through N Edinburgh from parking the car 2.5 miles away [!] and not seeing any sign of Yessers it was a great relief to arrive at the National gallery to see saltires etc and happy faces.

    An American lady asked me what was happening so I explained there was a march for Scotland… – “For Scottish independence?” Yes. “My ancestors fought for independence – in America, and here”, jabbing her finger towards the ground, “I hope you succeed”. That was an encouraging start!

    My husband, dog and I walked up the Mound and arrived at Castle Wynd North, the steps leading down from the Castle entrance to Johnstone Terrace. We joined the march from there when it began moving at around 1.30. I see from the map that Johnstone Terrace was a lot longer than I realised so there must have been a great number of marchers behind us.

    All the conversations we had whilst waiting were positive and pleasant – no grumbles or aggression, just sensible, nice people. [And we saw no litter in the park nor when we came back up the Royal Mile later.] It was touching to see people who were making the effort despite needing walking frames and such. And all the different countries’ flags.

    As for the people on the crags, right to the top, flying their banners. It was a terrific, dramatic sight – would make a wonderful film!

    The organisers and helpers did a grand job – everything was orderly and well-managed. It must have been a huge amount of work, especially with the HES problem. Well done and many thanks.

    The Royal Mile and Castle area was thick with tourists so their countries will know about the march, as other BTL commenters have said.

    Sitting on a bench back near the Castle before starting the long march back to the car, a new resident, a PhD Sociology student from London, came up to ask what had been going on and discuss the issues. She was supportive, saying the ethos in London and England is not as socially caring as in Scotland. And a New Zealand couple on holiday joined in – laughed at the idea that any ex-colony would vote to rejoin Britain.

    We got back home to Wester Ross about 1.00 this morning, entertaining ourselves on the drive reading Wings comments. Thank you everyone! It was a great way to celebrate my birthday.

  57. Famous15 says:

    Brexit is simply English Nationalism.

    Get over it,Scotch Jockanese!

  58. Meg merrilees says:


    I was at Johnson Terrace for about 12.45 and reached the Park at 3.20 and we were not at the back of the queue. By the time we finally began to move, about 1.20, we couldn’t see the end of the march behind us! Took about 30 minutes to walk down the Mile

    Plus, as regards numbers in the Park, as we reached the bottom half of the Mile and the Canongate both sides of the pavement were thronged with marchers returning from the Park and heading to cafes, pubs or home. They couldn’t believe we were still a solid column coming down the Mile.

    At no time was the entire march in the Park so trying to count that would not give an accurate figure. The only thing that would give an accurate total would be some sort of tally point just before the road opens into the Parliament area- possibly a CCTV source which could be what the Police is mentioning – as that would total everyone completing the march.

    Having said that, one chap in front of me had to stop and head back because his old dog had become lame and I also saw a mum with a crying toddler heading back up the road – suffice to say she eventually returned with smiling child but heard her ‘scolding’ her other half for not waiting at the bus stop for them like he said he would…. that old chestnut.. I think we’ve all had that experience. She wisnae that cross tho…

    Philippa Whitford was on BBC Any Questions on R4 on friday evening, repeated on saturday lunchtime. she was terrific and wiped the floor with many of the panel’s answers to much applause from the audience. She is such an asset. Brilliant debater.

  59. Auld Rock says:

    Hi Clydebuilt, SNP has as a matter of course had closed sessions where only members present get in either as a Delegate or Visitor. Sessions usually cover internal SNP business and at this point in time not for other ears.

  60. wull2 says:

    I will always vote for independence.
    But listen EU, if we are dragged out against the will of the people of Scotland, the independent country of Scotland might not vote for you in the future.
    Back to my first comment, I will always vote for independence.

  61. Dr Jim says:

    The difficult delegate was Gerry one of the older senior members and every year Gerry has a problem with something, this year was a point of order which wasn’t a point of order and he was told it wasn’t, but Gerry being Gerry insisted it was and was determined to make it and rather than just sling the old gent out they turned him off so he went

    Now if this was any other political party burly men would have been escorting him

    Bit more gentle treatment from the SNP for our seniors or even the grumpy

  62. Gary45% says:

    Mibees the gutter press could do a “build your own royal scrounging family.”
    Each day you get another sorry piece of nostalgic shite until you have the complete set including the dogs.
    This would increase the sales of said gutter shite for the gullible morons. Or the simple solution is to actually print worthy, factual, interesting unbiased real news.
    Then again Happy Days that their sales are disappearing into the mire.
    Mes Bo de fer.

  63. Andy-B says:

    Anti-Scottish shitrags, the sooner they fold the better.

    Even in a independent Scotland folk will have long memories and won’t purchase them. They’re doomed either way.

  64. Patrick Roden says:

    When you consider that these figures are the loss of sales for the past 6 months, it must look terrifying for the BritNats.

    They are only to aware tat they need the lies and misinformation put out by useless rags like the Herald, Scotsman, to keep the elderly scared etc.

    That would be a 16% yearly drop of sales for the Scotsman!
    12% for the Herald!

    ah well, never mind.

  65. Essexexile says:

    It does seem slightly odd that the immediate effect of the march yesterday was for NS to announce her party’s push for…. a second EUref.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m personally delighted she’s commited to supporting the people’s vote but if there is one, and remain wins second time round, it’ll knock indy back for sure. Not really what people were marching for was it?
    I’m a huge fan of NS, and I agree with her that independence is inevitable eventually, but I’m guessing quite a few in Edinburgh yesterday are running out of patience?

  66. call me dave says:

    Very uplifting scenes from the march all over the twitternatty.

    Good descriptions and varied personal accounts of the day are much appreciated and better than a bland MSM report.

    Worth a look here from James if you haven’t indulged.

  67. Bill Hume says:

    Re…drones to count attendances.
    It is illegal to fly a drone over a gathering of people.
    So…..would the person who flew one over the AUOB gathering please desist in future. We get enough bad press without you giving people ammunition to shoot us down.
    p.s. I worked for the CAA a few years ago…..they do not like people ‘bending’ the rules……for good reason.

  68. Yerkitbreeks says:

    Poor post “Caledonia “ – don’t be bigoted against the P&J when it’s only dropped 2% and has a circulation four times that of the Scotsman.

    Not that I’m trying to defend its bias.

  69. Dan Huil says:

    Good to see british nationalist papers losing readers.

    Boycott all britnat media.

  70. Capella says:

    Just catching up after a great day at the Edinburgh march. Weather fantastic, company brilliant and numbers huge. I heard that the police estimate was over 100,000 and that was certainly my impression.

    We waited an hour and a half in Johnston Terrace before we could get on to the High Street and heard that people were already down at Holyrood park by the time we even got started. Saw Keith Brown, Paul Wheelhouse, Angela Constance and Craig Murray in the crowd but arrived too late to hear any speeches.

    My one regret is that I didn’t see any Wingers there. I know youse were all about but in that crowd it is easy to miss people. The Saltires on the Crags looked brilliant. (We need to talk about HES.)

    A great occasion and atmosphere.

  71. Hamish100 says:

    essesxexile trolling, The FM wont be pushed by anyone. It may have escaped your notice that is SNP conference this week. I’m not inpatient. I want to win.

  72. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I appreciate, we Scots don’t do sitting waiting well. Far too-often in the past, we have become angry with the English and attaced at the wrong time, with disastrous consequences.

    Nicola has played a blinder, so far. She has covered every base, tried everything to get a deal, but, been ignored by the Tories.

    She will wait until the moger is assured, then call the referendum. The trouble is, Tory stupidity is compacting the time frame into which she can work. Between “no deal on Brexit” – “A bad deal on Brexit” and 2021, when her parliamentary mandate to call the referendum expires.

    Time is not on her side, but, I believe she will get Indyref2, and win it. Be brave Scotland.

  73. Ken500 says:

    The Conference day usually stops about 4pm/4.30. Close of day business. There are programmes of business available. Giving a timetable of events. Maybe some details on the internet. Or the SNP website? Try SNP.Org on the internet. Meeting and business, fringe discussion etc goes on informally. People meeting up. It is a very friendly occasion. Very inclusive. Even for people that attend on their own get in with folk. Such a wide variety of people.

    It is really interesting. Even apart from the speeches etc. Of course anybody can approach the representatives. For a natter or a quick hello or introduction. Even Nicola and Co. Every representative is totally accessible. Murrell gets involved in putting out extra chairs etc to make sure everyone has a seat. No air and graces anywhere in evidence. Alex Salmond is always missed. A really popular personality. Some people would just attend to see him.

    It can be very, very busy with so many people in attendance. It is always oversubscribed, People go for tea etc. Or gatherings. Some people have a distance to travel in order to get home or find their accomodation. Logistics.

    It is surprising that it is claimed that older people will not vote for Independence. The Party, branches and YES campaigns, marches, canvassing are full of them. Many are retired so they have the time. They are really good campaigners. Along with any unemployed. They have the time. Many people lead busy lives.

    Any new Indy Campaign is better to GE held over the summer months as a strategy. It is benificial for campaigning, and could affect success. The winter and Christmas are not such a good time strategically.

  74. Petra says:

    Paul Kavanah’s leaving us for a time to get married in the US. Best wishes from us all on Wings Paul.

    Wee Ginger Dug:

  75. Ruby says:

    I spotted a Yes stone on the wall outside Canongate Kirk this morning. I didn’t know about these Yes stones but having read the article ‘Yes stones made in Scotland start to spread across the world’. I do now.

    I thought it was very nice and I was tempted to take it but thought better of it and left if for someone else to wonder about.

    It’s a lovely idea.

    I’m going to keep my eye out for more in and around the Royal Mile.

  76. Rock says:

    “The National (Scotland) 9,746 (no update, Jan-Dec 2017 stats)”

    “by appealing to the half of Scots who back a Yes vote”

    The Yes movement needs a genuine Yes supporting paper, unlike the fake “independence supporting” The National, sister of The Herald.

  77. Iain says:

    Meanwhile, has the Scottish Review, whose editor Kenneth Roy in a moving piece announced his terminal illness only a few days ago, not been knocking up around 25,000 subscribers for each edition in recent times. I don’t think Roy adhered to any particular political stance, but his investigative reporting on many key issues and outrages demonstrated a style of journalism that is now, sadly, exceedingly rare.

  78. Ken500 says:

    The P&J is owned by a Dundee unionist. Thomson. He spends any profits and there are some. It is claimed tax evaded offshore by some commentators. A family of tax exiles. Spends it on a bankrupt Dundee Football Club. In trouble as well.

    A failure of biased bad ‘reporting’. No wonder sales are falling. ‘Reporters’ telling lies to do themselves out of a job. Dismal failure. There are agin Independence because they know in an Independent Scotland they would last five minutes printing all the nonsense. They might have to do a bit more research.

  79. yesindyref2 says:

    One of the most iconic visual spectacles must have been Arthur’s seat and all the crags with people and saltires. I took photos but dount they’ll really show it.

    What’s probably needed is a montage, and a perspective changing (cheating) one, with the stage and stalls in the foreground, maybe the YES bikers on the road, and en;arged crags in the sub.

    I was talking to a photographer who gives his time to Indy, can’t remember his name, wondering what he’s achieved. It’s some 3 word title for his twitter / facebook whatever, anyone know who I mean?

  80. ian murray says:

    The images of the march were very impressive.
    There was Sunshine on Leith and everywhere else in the Capital city.
    I am a long time exile but it made me want to come home to vote.
    wonder if there is a way ?

  81. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ken500 the owners of the P+J are DC Thomson also publishers of other comics such as the Beano, Dandy and Sunday Post, the stephen Thompson who I think you mean was the Chairman of Dundee United. Is father made his money at the Morning noon and night grocery stores, apart from that you comment is spot on especially the bit about doing more research ???

  82. yesindyref2 says:

    “and en;arged crags in the sub”

    WTF? Well I am suffering, found some people to drink with, plenty, and can’t take it like I used to. Glad I booked a nearby hostel bed back in August, just off the Royal Mile.

    Should have been “and enlarged crags in the background”.

  83. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scot Finlayson says: 7 October, 2018 at 3:13 pm:

    ” … What`s the script for watching youtube `live` and having/not having a broadcast licence.”

    Well most of YouTube is recorded anyway. However, if it is, “Live”, it is tabbed as live but most of what is labelled as live is livestreamed by individuals and not by broadcast companies.

    In many cases it isn’t a public Broadcast as such and the viewers signs up to a channel. Many people, like myself, have their own channel. There are two things about that – the channel operator has the option of opening any clip to public viewing or restricting it to only authorised persons.

    So I would say you just have to be careful what you watch and, if you have your own channel, what you allow to be free for all to view.

  84. ScotsRenewables says:

    Dr Jim says:
    7 October, 2018 at 5:15 pm
    The difficult delegate was Gerry one of the older senior members and every year Gerry has a problem with something, this year was a point of order which wasn’t a point of order and he was told it wasn’t, but Gerry being Gerry insisted it was and was determined to make it and rather than just sling the old gent out they turned him off

    Was that Gerry from the Oban branch by any chance?

  85. Ken500 says:

    No doubt? Quite a character.

  86. Ken500 says:

    The National is now printing some really good articles. It has. Been improving significantly recently. Much more mainstream. More realistic. @ Excellent one by Andrew Tickett.

    The Press are claiming that the SNP is the third largest Party in the UK. It is the second. The first (pro rata) by a massive lead. Scottish Party.

    Prof Robertson has a really good site. Really well researched information. ‘Talking up Scotland’.

  87. Worth a watch about being harassed to pay the live broadcast tax by Capita on behalf of the BBC on behalf of the UK State,

  88. Nana says:


    Westminster implement plan ‘B’ to deny Scotland its independence.
    New constitution bill will prevent it.

  89. ben madigan says:

    @ Socrates MacSporran who wrote “She will wait until the moger is assured, then call the referendum”.

    In her interview on the Marr show today, FM Sturgeon said she would make an announcement as soon as something was settled over brexit. “Mid-October” she said “Or maybe mid-November”
    So Scotland might not have to wait for much longer.

  90. Gerry says:

    This is cam footage of the march passing by. The first row of marchers pass by at around 29 minutes. At 2hrs 20minutes, there are still people going by marching. This is real time footage of the time lapse that was posted earlier in the thread.

  91. Clootie says:

    The P&J , Greenock Telegraph are purchased for local issues – who is going to jail, Births, Marriages and most importantly Death. Politics has little impact.

    However let us enjoy the departure of the Scotsman and Herald which will arrive soon. One Unionist rag after another closing their doors should be savoured 🙂

  92. Valerie says:

    This is a delight. Collected, submitted images from the march that AUOB has collated the best, and tried to show all manner of flags.

    Spotted WoS flag of course!

  93. Lenny Hartley says:

    ScotsRenewables Yup It was Gerry from the Oban Branch, whilst I normally think he does a good job of keeping the leadership honest today he was cringeworthy and thoroughly deserving of the slow handclap from the other delegates. Not a good idea to call Derek Mckay the Conference Business Convenor a liar.

  94. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Westminster implement plan ‘B’ to deny Scotland its independence. New constitution bill will prevent it.” As per Nana says at 8:00 pm

    Westminster going down the Spanish State route it appears.

    Please can you spread this far and wide folks?

    This would IMHO be the Official ending of the 1707 Act of Union and England officially declaring Scotland it’s vassal state.

    An enforced UDI by London.

  95. Dan Huil says:

    @ Nana 8:00pm

    The SNP must take advantage of this latest example of Westminster arrogance towards Scotland.

  96. Essexexile says:

    Hamish100, trolling!!!? Good grief! I was well aware before reading, and posting on this site that a sizeable contingent are fanatical about indy to the point of intolerance of any dissent but I guess this is my first personal experience of it.
    I, of course don’t have a vote in an iref (which is right), but I’m exactly the sort of soft ‘yes’ that is needed to win next time round. I was never convinced by Salmond or his arguments, and if I’m honest, I see him and his self aggrandising, thinly veiled anti English stance as unhelpful, outdated baggage that cost ‘yes’ the last iref and will hinder their cause in the next one.
    NS will deliver independence. I’m sure of it. The ‘purists’ just need to realise that they need to wind their neck in and accept that many people MOVING TO THEIR SIDE may not agree with every word of the nationalist doctrine.

  97. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Westminster implement plan ‘B’ to deny Scotland its independence. New constitution bill will prevent it.” As per Nana says at 8:00 pm

    Westminster going down the Spanish State route it appears.

    Please can you spread this far and wide folks?

    This would IMHO be the Official ending of the 1707 Act of Union and England officially declaring Scotland it’s vassal state.

    An enforced UDI by London.

  98. velofello says:

    Never interrupt your enemy…etc… etc. The proposed Constitution being presented to the House of “Lords” and then the “Commons” could be the trigger for the SNP to withdraw from the Westminster Parliament and so, UK governance.

  99. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Sorry for the double post.

  100. Tinto Chiel says:

    I would normally stick this on O/T but, in Smallaxe’s absence, there’s not a lot of traffic there at the mo.

    Can anyone identify the flag which was sticking out a window near the statue of Robert Fergusson on the RM? It seemed to be a white saltire on a black field with a white star at the middle near the hoist.

  101. Petra says:

    Thanks for that Nana. Then again maybe not! They’ve been beavering away in the background working on this for a few years now and all of a sudden ready to go, initiate debate, in two days time. Good timing, eh?

    Vow 2 coming up or is it 3, 4 or 5?

    The chain around the neck of our strong, wild and untamed unicorn has just been tightened. Our unicorn is being throttled, folks, right in front of our eyes. In a stranglehold.

    Time for us to bid them a not so fond ….. adieu, adieu, adieu.

  102. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Westminster implement plan ‘B’ to deny Scotland its independence. New constitution bill will prevent it.

    I’ve always thought the decisive moment for the Indy cause would come unexpectedly out of the blue.

    Yes, demand and support is growing slowly. However I am still convinced there will be a step change in opinion. Most likely something will get right up the noses of most Scots and that will include 2014-soft-NOs. And let’s face it, the current bunch of arrogant numpties in WM are just the right people to make a big fatal mistake!

    This attempt to force a new constitution on Scotland might be the match to the blue touch paper, it might not.

  103. Essexexile says:

    Hamish100, trolling!!!? Good grief! I was well aware before reading, and posting on this site that a sizeable contingent are fanatical about indy to the point of intolerance of any dissent but I guess this is my first personal experience of it.
    I, of course don’t have a vote in an iref (which is right), but I’m exactly the sort of soft ‘yes’ that is needed to win next time round. I was never convinced by Salmond or his arguments, and if I’m honest, I see him and his self aggrandising, thinly veiled anti English stance as unhelpful, outdated baggage that cost ‘yes’ the last iref and will hinder their cause in the next one.
    NS will deliver independence. I’m sure of it. The ‘purists’ just need to realise that they need to wind their neck in and accept that many people MOVING TO THEIR SIDE may not agree with every word of the nationalist doctrine.
    Very much trying to constructively play the ball here.

  104. Jason Smoothpiece says:


    Eh about that I know one or two Scots who would strongly disagree with any proposed legislation in that direction.

    Like about half the population.

    There is also the small matter of the United Nations Charter which says lots but includes this:

    All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

    Note the word freely being thrown about there.

    I honesty wonder who advises the nutters at Westminster.

    A cynic may suspect that they are attempting to provoke folk.

  105. Marie Clark says:

    Nana, absolutely outrageous. How can the Lords change the constitution/ act of union, they are two completely different things. they don’t have that right. Since we, Scotland, are signatories to the act, which is a legal treaty, how the blue blazes do they think that this will fly without Scotland’s consent. They sure as hell won’t get that. They can ram that where the sun don’t shine. Arrogant feckin arseholes. They still don’t realise that they don’t bloody own us, do they.

    Well, well, mibies independence will come a lot sooner than any of us thought.

    GIRFUY the whole feckin shower of them.

  106. Legerwood says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    7 October, 2018 at 8:33 pm
    “”This would IMHO be the Official ending of the 1707 Act of Union and England officially declaring Scotland it’s vassal state.
    An enforced UDI by London.””
    It is the Treaty of Union of 1707, a Treaty within International Law.

    The Acts of Union, note the plural, were the ratifying Acts passed by the Scots Parliament and English Parliament.

    It seems to be the English way to use ‘Act of Union’ when referring to the Treaty, a way of attempting to downgrade its importance no doubt, and, if seen as a mere Act, easier to alter.

  107. Brian Cahill says:

    The death of the printed press in Scotland is inevitable.
    The lack of quality journalists, and the anti Independence stance adopted by the editors is not helpful.

    The distortion of the truth,coupled with the snide attacks on the Scottish Government, will hasten their demise.

  108. Ken500 says:

    The P&J management have helped the unionists to practically destroy the City and cause major congestion. The City Council is despised for their corruption, by people of every hue. A total inaqequate joke. Universally despised. That is why less people buy it the P & J. It is a complete and utter disgrace. The standard of journalism is destestible. Dundee by comparison (Thomson premise on the by pass) is run with great success by a SNP led council. V&A etc.

    A two job Tory keeping the ACC regime in place. To borrow and spend £Millions on grotesque monstrosities no one wanted and and cutting necessary essential services. People’s demise. £1l2Billion in debt. It is shocking how they get away with it. Without and media comment.

    The only light in the tunnel was the SNP and Alex Salmond who managed to bring some successful long waited investment in. AWPR. Turbines in the Bay (eyesore right enough). The Golf Development still not complete by the action of the inadequate Aberdeen/shire council. Another bunch of total unionists numpties on the take. One Tory councillor not paying the council tax on the Castle.

    Another millionaire Tory landowner now in Holyrood. Getting Local authority contract as a councillor and overcharging £Millions. Hoping the Council do not find out. They got found out in Holyrood trying the same illegal corruption. Disciplined.. Another third rate lister. Dragged in off the street.

    The poverty report (20 food banks?) there are four registered. Claimed 20 pick up points on a Council leaflet trying to claim concern. They do not care or give a damn. The ‘report’ contained a quote from the two job Tory and the Labour inadequate who are causing the problem by sanctioning and starving folk with their illegal political policies. Without any comment to make reference to this fact. Claiming fake concern. Total lying, heartless, coarse hypocrites. How can they do this to vulnerable people?

  109. Shug says:

    I think we should encourage the orange lodge to march for the union

  110. One_Scot says:

    Essexexile, lol, don’t worry about it, it happens to all of us at some point. 🙂

    Just dust yourself down and keep moving forward.

  111. Collie says:

    The Scotsman figures will include the freebies they throw into Hotels and Hospitals.

    It has been rumoured for a while now that the Scotsman only actually sells about 7000 copies a day.

    Now you tell me how any “national” newspaper can survive on selling 7000 copies a day?

    Dark forces are definitely at work,,I think they call it the BBC. They would have no qualms about subsidising this Unionist rag.

  112. yesindyref2 says:

    I talked to quite a lot of marchers, and the position is that people are having patience for the moment, until the “terms of Brexit becomne clear”, and understand the reasons. But that patience would run out if the SNP don’t use the mandate. Desired date for the ref to be had, or at least announed, for many is March.

  113. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Bill Hume

    Hello Bill, thanks for the useful reminder about the legislation regarding legal operation of Drones.

    I went back and looked at the footage – with this in mind – there are perhaps, one or two shots where ‘it looks like’ the camera is immediately above the crowd. Quite a lot of the shot is clearly to the side, or on the clear bit of the road (away from the march) photographing the march as if leaving.

    I was there, and I saw the drone. I may not be the only witness who did NOT see the drone flying directly overhead. The council may find about 19, 999 others:)

    You gave good advice:) However, these things are always harder to prove from the footage… angles, lighting, foreshortening, etc.

    In any event … on 9/3/19 Scotland is taken out of EU against its democratic wishes and at that point the CAA ceases to have the authority is currently does.

    And the laws it currently works to ? Will they still be the ones they work to? Your guess is as good as mine.

    Yes we can. Now we must.

  114. Jock McDonnell says:

    If somebody suggested to me that Alex Salmond had a thinly veiled anti-English stance, I would say it wasn’t very obvious to his English acquaintances. His recent interview with the feisty Edwina Currie certainly lacked any acrimony that one would associate with such a point of view.

    Often I think it is just easier to characterise Salmond & Independence in such a way, makes voting No easier to justify to oneself.

  115. Ken500 says:

    There would never have been an IndyRef, a successful Independence movement or Devolved Gov without Alex Salmond and his years and years of efforts and dedication. Please get the facts right. Do not show ignorance. Go and do a bit of research and find out a few facts on that. His contribution is immeasurable and can never be denied. The exposure of the McCrone Report. The discussion of Scotland budget and Westminster deficit. The Illegal Barnett Formula

    The years and years of almost single effort in extenuated circumstances in Westminster. He could put them straight in no uncertain terms. The promotion of Nicola Sturgeon and total support for other women and respect for friends, people and supporters. A great Statesman for Scotland. When Nicola does deliver Independence. It was Alex Salmond who did the ground work. Never lose sight of that. Just telling the truth which people were dissuaded from believing by Westminster lies.

    The snide remarks are quite out of keeping with the facts. It is quite unnecessary.

  116. Fred says:

    @ Tinto, I saw that flag myself & wondered, the Canongate arms has a stags head so not that!

  117. Nana says:

    I’ve always been one of those who prefers to know what the powers that be are up to, that’s why I watch and listen. I share my findings here on Wings.

    It’s best we know what they’re up to even it does cause palpitations!

    ‘forewarned is forearmed’

  118. Dr Jim says:

    @Jock McDonnell 9.11pm

    Spot on being anti England attitude to Scotland isn’t being anti English

  119. Petra says:

    I see that they say on the new Act of Stuff the Scots that, “the case is a very urgent one.” I wonder if following the Edinburgh march yesterday they were all on the phone last night, emailing or texting each other, with the sweat pouring off them, and saying for God sake get that out NOW, lol. Get the legislation passed ASAP.

    Taking it that the Union includes Scotland did Lord Lisvane et al think of informing the First Minister of Scotland about their plan to announce this now? And is it fair that around 600 English politicians can overrule around 35 SNP MPs on this, as per usual, and over 800 Lords overrule, eh, …… no SNP individuals sitting (zzzzzzz) in the House of Lords at all? And what about the Queen? Queen of the Scots? As a sovereign Scot I’m getting pretty well p*ssed off with her.

  120. Ken500 says:

    The House of Lords has absolutely no powers. Just to delay a Bill twice sometimes less. On negotiation. Their consultation is just another talking shop. All power to legislate rests with the House of Commons and the Holyrood Parliament. Not the House of Lords. An unelected non entity. They have no rights over Scotland/UK/EU at all. Just as bystanders. No power at all.

    In fact Cameron was intent to stop that practice ie the House of Lords having the power to delay at all. Osbourne & May was in on it but they have not had time to act. With everything going on they certainly have their hands and heads full of nonsense,

    Catalonia/Spain compared to Scotland Independence cause/fight is a total different situation. Any attempt to compare can only be done with qualification. More different in many ways to be considered similar, Too keep on comparison could affect the Scottish Independence movement Draw folk away from voting for it because any perceived irrelevant disruption or hostility.

  121. Petra says:

    “Forewarned is forearmed.” Spot on Nana.


    @ Valerie at 8:14pm …… “AUOB images.”

    Brilliant Valerie and I just love the image of the cops laughing and smiling with the guy in the wheelchair. Also the Robert Fergusson statue. When I passed and took photographs an EU flag was tied around his neck and he was holding the saltire blowing in the breeze. The tourists loved it.

  122. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


    White Saltire on a Black background allegedly a White Russian Regimental Flag or a motor racing disqualification flag according to Wiki.

    No idea re the star on it.

    Also appears anyone with a Saltire with a darker blue back ground rather than the Panatone (light) blue is apparently flying the flag of Tenerife!

  123. Phil says:

    Fred says: 7 October, 2018 at 9:26 pm

    “@ Tinto, I saw that flag myself & wondered, the Canongate arms has a stags head so not that!”

    No info there, but we saw & spoke to a guy waving a large flag of solid red with black diagonal cross. Asked “What?”. He said it is a Saltire. He is an anarchist.


    Great day everyone!

  124. Robert Peffers says:

    @Clydebuilt says: 7 October, 2018 at 4:18 pm:

    ” … SNP conference, after a difficult delegate, mikes apeared to be switched off, cameras either were distant from back of room, or behind speakers. At 4pm BBC stopped coverage, with no reason given, Internet coverage stopped around the time also. . . . Must’ve been interesting topic.”

    Well no, Clydebuilt, Conference always has some topics that are NOT for general public view but are party business that is for members or delegates only. However, I did think that the old guy with his claim of a point of order rather stopped things in their tracks.

    I guess he is ex-Labour or an ex-Labour party trade unionist, They have the strange idea that if they disagree with something or are objecting to something that it constitutes, “A Point of Order”. It doesn’t for a Point of Order is bringing to the chairperson’s notice that the Standing Orders of the Meeting have been broken or otherwise not properly followed. The Old guy seems to have had some kind of complaint but it was nothing to do with Standing orders.

    However, if you were watching conference the chair had just stated that to get everything on the agenda covered he proposed to not call seconders to motions to speak. Their speech is not really needed unless there are counter motions called or amendments proposed and seconded. There were none so to get through everything the chair asked if it was all right to miss out the seconders speeches and conference agreed.

    Then the old guy called a point of order that wasn’t a point of order, (Like James Kelly when he got throw out of the chamber for both NOT stating what the point of order was and not sitting down when the chair was speaking – and that was a breech of standing orders – he was thus correctly escorted out and barred by the chair.

    I was a Union rep for many years and it was common for numpties to call points of order that had nothing whatsoever to do with standing orders.

  125. galamcennalath says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Also appears anyone with a Saltire with a darker blue back ground rather than the Panatone (light) blue is apparently flying the flag of Tenerife!

    Pantone 300 is the official shade.

    The Tenerife flag is indeed similar to Scotland’s, and tends to be darker.

    Funny thing, I’ve notice when BritNats wave a Saltire (as OO sometimes do on marches) the shade of blue tends to be darker. I suspect they favour a darker blue because it looks like the blue bit of their Butcher’s Apron.

    My understanding is that Union Flags used to have a lighter blue. However in the mid 19thC new chemical dyes became available which faded less. The Royal Navy began ordering Union Jacks (the naval version) in this new darker blue and the style became established.

  126. stewartb says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker @10:03 pm

    You wrote: “Also appears anyone with a Saltire with a darker blue back ground rather than the Panatone (light) blue is apparently flying the flag of Tenerife!”

    Agree. As I understand it, the blue colour equivalent to ‘Pantone 300’ ( is the recommended colour for Scotland’s national flag, the background to our white Saltire cross. The ‘decision’ to make this recommendation dates back to 2003 in the Holyrood Parliament (I think).

    And was it not a colour close to that of the sky over Edinburgh early afternoon on Saturday!

  127. Breeks says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    7 October, 2018 at 10:03 pm

    White Saltire on a Black background allegedly a White Russian Regimental Flag or a motor racing disqualification flag according to Wiki

    Are we positive it was a Saltire? Sounds kinda Cornish, white Cross on black background… Independence friends from Cornwall?

  128. yesindyref2 says:

    Re saltire there’s this:
    (Siol nan Gaidheal)

    Shade of blue – any one historically, they didn’t have computers or reliable ink centuries ago. Dark blue to light blie. The formal pantone colour is even more recent than the pantone scheme itself, and I think it was the SNP who brought it in.

    I’ve also seen another colour scheme somewhere, maybe no on the internet it might be on the plaques of a castle of something, maybe Rothesay. Can’t remember the colours, but it was a saltire and I vaguely remember it was a battle saltire. Maybe an Alexander but I’m guessing.

  129. stewartb says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker @ 10:03 pm

    You wrote: “Also appears anyone with a Saltire with a darker blue back ground rather than the Panatone (light) blue is apparently flying the flag of Tenerife!”

    Maybe so. As I understand it, the Holyrood Parliament in 2003 agreed that the recommended background colour of our national flag – the background for the white saltire cross – should be Pantone 300 (see ) rather than the darker blue use in the Union flag.

    A blue not far off the colour of the sky over Edinburgh on Saturday?

  130. Clootie says:

    The BBC managed the difficult task of NOT showing the two levels of the conference audience at the same time. Credit to their skills on achieving narrow angle shots under difficult circumstances e.g. The march in Edinburgh and the SNP conference.

  131. Bob Mack says:

    Really the new Act of Union.

    I have been following the Constitutional Reform Group for some time. They are very concerned about Scotland becoming independent ,and have asked the Lords to pressurise the Tory government into accepting and voting for a UK Federal system with of course the proviso Scotland is locked into the Union forever.

    The big fly in their ointment however is that Scotlands people would have to vote for it in a referendum, It would be an enormous risk by Westminster, because it may indicate that Scotland was against a Union, and could be rightly seen as indicating desperation by England to keep hold of a country they say is economically unsound.

    No doubt they will try, but it seems improbable it would succeed.

    To impose it unilaterally without the approval of the Scottish people would be literally an act of war.

  132. The blue in the bucher`s apron is Pantone 280C,a darker blue,

    the blue in our Scottish Saltire is Pantone 300, a lighter blue,

    don`t know why.

  133. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’m no constitutional expert but,

    any amendment of “the Act Of Union” must specify which “Act Of Union” it pertains to.
    Is it that of the English parliament (dissolved in 1707), or the Scottish parliament, prorouged in 1707?
    One parliament CANNOT legislate over the actions of a partner in an union.

    To paraphrase R. Peffers, I fear they are gibberin’ pish.

  134. frogesque says:

    @ Breeks: 10.35

    Cornish flag is the Cross of St. Piran.

    White upright cross on a black background's_Flag

  135. GrahamB says:

    Robert at 10:10 and Clydebuilt
    The ‘old guy’ was Gerry Fisher, he has been at about 48 conferences and has made a point of order at most recent ones. His gripe is that Scotland should be totally independent and not in any union especially with Europe (and rUK obviously). He seems to have a personal gripe with Derek Mackay as well but is allowed a delegate’s pass and a chance to have his annual point of order objection regardless.

  136. Robert Louis says:

    If Westminster decides to change the terms of the union, then that will be the end of the union.

    Clearly those suggesting such a move, do not understand the nature of the treaty of union.

    Scotland would in such circumstances immediately be an independent country. Perhaps some in London do not appreciate that fact. Scotland and England separately agreed the articles of union. If London chooses to change that by itself, then they end the current treaty. It is that simple. One party to a bilateral treaty cannot alter the terms by itself.

    The sooner the better. Afterwards they can claim what the hell they wish, but as of that passing, Scotland would be a foreign country, and they would have no authority over it. Any attempt by England to do so, would be invasion or interference in a foreign sovereign state.

    Absolute dummies in Westminster. Their arrogance and colonial attitude will be their downfall.

  137. Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert Peffers, the “Old Guy” Gerry Fisher is a long term indy Supporter like yourself , he has been a member of the SNP for well over fifty years so is no latecomer to the Indy Movement. He is very well known to those who attend conference as he is the resident contrarian often ensuring that correct procedures are followed. Sadly he got it well wrong today.

  138. Ken500 says:

    Some folk like some self publicity and the sound of their own voice. Some people particularly do not support EU membership and goes round and round in circles about it. Sometime incoherent arguments.

    The delegates only get to speak for 4 minutes? In time to get the work run through. The purpose of the Conference to formulate policy. If this ruling is ignored. People can try to go on over time. It is a point of order that everybody adheres to the rules. Otherwise the resolution discussion and vote would never be passed to go on time to next topic. It is normal practice in many organisation. The Conference is only on for two/three days. There is a lot of business to get through. On a set time table. The topics, resolution and vote come up from the members. It is quite interesting.

    In many organisation and business meetings there are people who like sound of their voice. They can go on and on for hours if not restricted.

  139. HYUFD says:

    Bob Mack Of course it wouldn’t be ‘a declaration of War’. Indeed if the Scottish people voted for a Federal UK in a referendum given nats go on about how power in Scotland is determined by the consent of ‘the people of Scotland’ that would entrench it within Scottish law.

    We are almost a Federal UK anyway now we have a Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Northern Irish Assembly, all that is needed is an English Parliament and then Westminster could become the Federal UK Parliament

  140. HYUFD says:

    Jack Collatin Universal Credit will end the current situation where workers lose all their benefits if they work more than 16 hours a week, ensuring it always pays to work.

  141. Ken500 says:

    It would not be an Act of Law, it would be a discussion for the UN which supports self determination and freedoms. In it’s constitution along with it’s members. Many of whom are friends of Scotland and have long held ties even in the US who fund it and could influence elections. France, auld alliance, Germany, etc A McAllister Deputy.

    Many EU/UN members support self determination and (Scottish) EU membership. It needs Alex Salmond involved. He knows most of them and has personal contacts with Russia and China as well. Knows the China leadership. Putin supported Scottish Independence and did not support Cameron’s or Obama lies. Even Trump has business interests and Scottish heritage. Like a lot of American friends and relatives.

    NewZealand, Australia and Canada has Scottish heritage. Historical ties. Alex Salmobd broadcasts all over the world to billion of people supporting Scottish Independence. Many people in the rest of the UK support it as well. Scotland is not alone but has international ties and support.

  142. Black Douglas says:

    Also spotted the black Saltire with the white star at Cannongate, it is the Black Flag of Catalonia,

    “The black mourns the fall of the city and the loss of Catalan laws and institutions of representative government which were replaced with absolutist monarchy after 1714.”

  143. Bob Mack says:


    I believe I wrote an Act of war. We are a sovereign people, Co joined only by a treaty with England.Federalism as devolution means taxation, foreign policy ,and many other rights and processes of government remain centralised. Why have federalism? We already have that arrangement which is becoming more and more unpopular.

    Better with independence all round.

  144. HYUFD
    You are talking mince, and you know it.
    But thanks for the light relief.
    Google Esther McVey UC £50 a week cuts..should do it.
    UC was designed to ‘save’ Welfare payments.
    You may recall that Osborne built in £12 billions in cuts to welfare; well, they’ve only managed £4 billion so far because of the delays to UC nationwide roll out.
    What colour is the sky in your privileged sheltered little world?

  145. Bob Mack says:


    So, the estimates by all the groups who predict poverty increases due to Universal credit just don’t have your insight. Poor them,. All that wasted time researching when they could just have asked little old you.

  146. 43 billion barrels extracted from Scottish waters,

    average price of barrel over 40 years is $54.30 pb,

    = $2,334,000,000,000,

    Westminster got $400 billion,

    the oil companies got nearly $2 trillion,

    Scotland got told for 40 years that it was just about to run out,

    price of barrel today is $84.47,

    average for the last year is $70 with nearly a billion barrels pumped.

  147. Molly says:

    Bob Mack
    I’m not sure it’s the same group ( the Commons Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee) but I contacted them on the 5th of March to complain and get clarification re their report.

    I’d stumbled across a forum which was asking for opinions from ‘ the people of Scotland’ regarding what areas of devolution worked best etc.

    In the comments section it was quite clear that many who were putting in their tuppence worth didn’t understand devolution and obviously did not live with a devolved Govt so I emailed and asked them to clarify what their remit was and if this would honestly be their evidence ? Others had made the same points on the forum

    Initially I was redirected to another dept but after I sent a second email,l basically got back an email saying thanks for participating in the forum and that was it. Life took over and I never followed it up.

    I have thought a system of trusty traders or Trip advisor should be introduced to review the responses you get from these departments

    It’ll be interesting to see what the evidence is though on Tuesday

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    Phew, got there in the end, now I can go to my pit:

    The Scottish Parliament decreed in 1385 AD that ‘Item every man French and Scots shall have a sign before and behind, namely a white St. Andrew’s Cross, and if his jack is white or his coat white he shall bear the said white cross in a piece of black cloth round or square’. The French probably wore white which accounts for the last part of the ordinance.

    Not a black cross on white, white on black, for the French at least, and the saltire itself (the cross) was just white.

    Sorry, what was the question I forget.

  149. Meg merrilees says:

    re the possible change to a new Constitution

    I guess Their Lordships think that Mundell is right – that Scotland is no longer a ‘partner’ in the UK but is now ‘part’ of the UK and so we need a new Act of Union to consolidate that.

    They must think that they can now legislate for Scotland without requiring our consent as they seem to have wittered on about that a few months ago under the Sewell Convention.


    They are in for a big surprise!

  150. HYUFD says:

    Ken500 The UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and can thus veto any UN resolution, as can Russia, China, the US and France

  151. HYUFD says:

    Bob Mack In you opinion, Panelbase yesterday had No ahead 56% to 44% on a straight Yes No question. Admittedly a No Deal Brexit would make it tighter but No was still ahead 52% to 48% and May seems to be avoiding that anyway

  152. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, just read a couple of sentences later:

    The first certain use of a plain St. Andrew’s Cross flag – but the field was red, not blue – occurs in 1503 AD in the Vienna Book of Hours.


    Traditionally the Saltire is blue (some say to represent the sky in the vision) but some versions have existed which have the white cross on a black background (due to the shortage of vegetable dyes that could reproduce the colour) and even green or red.

  153. HYUFD says:

    Jack Collatin, Bob Mack The problems with Universal Credit implementation are largely due to lack of Treasury support. The core aim, to ensure it always pays to work, remains a sound one

  154. Liz g says:

    Robert Louis @10.51
    That’s no actually my understanding of the Union…

    The TREATY of Union give the – Acts – of Union the force of Law.
    So …any Act of the Westminster Parliament,carries the Force of Law, because we’re in a Treaty agreement to “allow “ it to.
    Therefore…. Westminster can Write Law (act’s) for Scotland (but it must be Written in Scottish Legal Terms) all the time, “ while “ that TREATY is a live document!!
    New Acts of Union are smoke and mirrors, propaganda to be sure::!

    IT IS THE TREATY … the thing that they never mention, that is the real problem!!!
    Westminster CANNOT change the Treaty,itself.. because Scotland would need to agree all over again to ‘ actually ‘have a Treaty!!!
    #Disolve the Treaty, has it right!

    Our question must always be…
    Why are you proposing New Acts of Union when it’s the Treaty of Union that is in dispute?

    That Treaty is the Foundation document of the UK Parliament.. without it there’s no UK!
    We should, or mair tae the point, “they “ should, I think, not be allowed to get away with confusing the Treaty of Union with the Act’s of Union…. every Act of the UK Parliament is an Act of the UK Union.

    But … and it’s a big But… Nae TREATY means that Westminster has not the power to write Scotlands Law..
    I think, it was Rabbie Burns who first asked That question… and very much indicated..
    There’s a connection between Scotland’s Law and freedom, … or at the very least asked..
    What about Scotland’s King and Law…because this is where!! where freedom could fall??

  155. yesindyref2 says:

    Stupefying Survation survey suggests Scotland will vote Yes to independence if there’s a No Deal Brexit

    Should Scotland be an independent country?
    Yes 46% (-1)
    No 54% (+1)

    In the event of Brexit:
    Yes 50%
    No 50%

    In the event of a no deal Brexit:
    Yes 52%
    No 48%

  156. Cubby says:

    Robert Louis 10.51pm

    Hey don’t let the cat out the bag. The Britnat diddy who talks a lot of mince on Wings might actually tell them. But I’m betting their arrogance will not allow them to accept this possibility.

  157. Cubby says:

    Smithie @ previous thread

    HYUFD = British Nationalist talking a load of lying pish.

    Smithie please note that this is an information statement. Think of it like a public safety announcement. You know, health and safety warning. It certainly is not engaging with the diddy.

    My will is in in good health but thanks for your concern anyway. Perhaps you might want to take your ire out on others who engage with the diddy. There are plenty to choose from. Perhaps your will is not strong enough to take them on.

    The Britnat diddy is just trying to create disruption and spread Britnat propaganda.

  158. msdidi says:

    Tinto Chiel @8.39
    We saw that flag in Edinburgh too and wondered about it. It’s The Black Flag of Catalonia …. hope this link works

  159. galamcennalath says:

    When Scotland is independent, and Ireland is reunified, England and Wales will need a new flag to replace the by then defunct and inappropriate Union flag.

    Their choice, of course, but they might consider a hybrid of St George (red cross on white) and St David (yellow cross on black).

  160. K1 says:

    The potential introduction of misogyny as a hate crime mentioned at conference by Humza yesterday is based on a call for UK wide intro of this type of legislation.

    This from Sept 3rd in the Guardian, outlines analysis and surveys that took place in Nottingham, giving a detailed picture of endemic behaviours that are being challenged, I don’t think it’s about prosecution so much as education and curbing of these ‘attitudes’. A ‘nipping in the bud’ and de escalation of types of behaviours that with early intervention reduces potential worse crimes in the future.

    ‘Since the Nottinghamshire pilot scheme began, support for the policy has grown across the country. Other police forces have introduced similar schemes: North Yorkshire police likewise record misogynist incidents, while Avon and Somerset and Northamptonshire police now record gender hate crime. The civil society alliance Citizens UK, along with the Fawcett Society and senior Jewish and Muslim faith leaders, have co-signed a letter urging the NPCC to act on a national rollout. In Scotland, the Holyrood government is considering proposals to include gender, as well as age, as a hate crime in law.

    Officers working in the pilot areas say that, crucially, the policy has enabled them to chart the scale of the problem for the first time. For those who would argue that pursuing these crimes distracts from more serious offences, they emphasise the operational importance of information gathering, especially where offending escalates.‘

  161. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lenny Hartley says: 7 October, 2018 at 10:58 pm:

    ” … the “Old Guy” Gerry Fisher is a long term indy Supporter like yourself, he has been a member of the SNP for well over fifty years so is no latecomer to the Indy Movement. He is very well known to those who attend conference as he is the resident contrarian often ensuring that correct procedures are followed. Sadly he got it well wrong today.”

    Yes, Lenny I know. The point I was making, though, is the very common mistake of thinking that, “Points of Order”, have all to do with, “Standing Orders”, and nothing whatsoever to do with either personal beefs or complaints.

    It is particularly misunderstood in the Labour Party and Trade Union movement. There is, of course, a laid down method of procedure for a genuine point of order.

    You must inform the chair you want to make a Point of Order and usually after the motions have been dealt with. Then you quote the part of the Standing Orders that has been broken, or not abided with. Only then do you get down to the particular point of order in question.

    Failure to do so means that only the person calling the Point of Order knows what the hell they are talking about and everyone else is in the dark. Even more so if it isn’t a breech of standing orders in the first place.

  162. Robert Peffers says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon says: 7 October, 2018 at 10:48 pm:

    ” … any amendment of “the Act Of Union” must specify which “Act Of Union” it pertains to.”

    Actually it does not, Brian.

    Both Acts of Union were specific to the respective parliaments that passed them and as both were still independent when they passed the acts neither one could be applied to the other.

    The purpose of both Acts were really the winding up of the parliaments that passed them as that was what they were intended to achieve – to wind up the parliament that passed the Act and having achieved their purpose were, like the individual parliaments, of no further use.

    The Treaty of Union, on the other hand was, and still is, the legal agreement that forms the United Kingdom and if that was not so the union would no longer exist. Both Acts on Union were as dead as a DoDo as soon as they were passed.

    In point of fact the Parliament of the Kingdom of England has never say again for current Westminster is not the actual Parliament of England – it is exactly what its name says it is, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom”.

    It is also headed by what is formally known as, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”, not the Government’s or the people’s Prime Minister. Which is why Her Majesty calls who she is supposed to choose to Her Majesty’s Presence and commands that person to Form Her Majesty’s Government after an election. However, have you ever seen it explained who tells Her Majesty who to command to her presence to form Her Majesty’s Government?

    Me neither. BTW: Who is it that in the event of war, dissolves the sitting government and decides who will serve as the coalition War Cabinet?

    So just face the fact that both Acts of Union were redundant as soon as they were passed. Excepting that the Scottish Government was only legally prorogued and then reconvened.

    That means only Holyrood can call upon, and perhaps amend their Act of Union, but Westminster was permanently recessed and cannot be thus be reconvened. If they were to form another elected Parliament of the Kingdom of England it would legally be a brand new parliament.

    Which is why Westminster is only the de facto parliament of the country, (not the Kingdom), of England and why they are, and always have been, acting illegally and contrary to the Treaty of Union.

    It takes a while to get your head round but when it does it all becomes very, very clear. An international court could never accept the arrangement that came into force on 1 May 1707 for it was illegal from day one.

  163. Ian McCubbin says:

    We need some regional wings over Scotland reporters me thinks.

  164. Petra says:

    ‘Herald’s statistics fail to create believable crisis in Scottish teacher supply.’


    ‘Joanna Cherry tells conference independence can be won without a referendum.’

    ‘Speaking at a fringe event at the party’s annual conference, Joanna Cherry said a “democratic event” such as a General Election would be enough…’


    ‘Nicola Sturgeon says Brexit makes Scottish independence ‘inevitable.’

  165. Robert Peffers says:

    @HYUFD says: 7 October, 2018 at 11:15 pm:

    ” … We are almost a Federal UK anyway now we have a Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Northern Irish Assembly”

    Hilarious, HYUFD, why you come out with these idiotic comments is comic gold.

    The reason Westminster is, and has been since 1 May 1707, an illegal and undemocratic government is precisely because Westminster hasn’t, and has not been since becoming legally the Government of the United Kingdom, because it has operated as the English Parliament while claiming to be the United Kingdom Government and it cannot legally be both at the same time.

    The Treaty of Union has only two, equally Sovereign kingdoms as its member Kingdoms. It is called The United Kingdom because it supposedly united two Kingdoms. It immediately assumed that it was the continued old Kingdom of England Parliament and had annexed Scotland.

    Then it got even more illegal when it split the bipartite United Kingdom up as four countries but retained Westminster as the de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England and thus it devolved what it thought were English sovereignty to the other three countries which in effect made Westminster the master race with three dominion countries and even that was not good enough for Westminster for they then brought in EVEL to reinforce English dominance – and numpties like you cannot fathom why the United Kingdom must inevitably end with England being rejected as arrogant idiots.

    I’m surprised it has lasted this long and I really cannot see any mitigating circumstances that can ever save, not just the Union of the two signatory kingdoms to the Treaty of Union, but of the three country Kingdom of England itself. There is nothing more sure that after Scotland ends the Treaty of Union that both the annexed Wales & Norther Ireland will bail out too.

    I’d bet on Ireland reuniting, perhaps even before Scotland ends the Union, and that leaves the remaining problem for England of the three Crown Dependencies and Gibraltar.

  166. Kangaroo says:

    Robert Peffers @ 6:23am

    Acts and Treaties of Union.
    Agree with all your points, however wastemonster has never been shy of acting illegally. This is probably going to be the problem. They are getting all their ducks in a row to ensure they retain power.
    a) reduce the SG by constantly denigrating it in the media, suggest that devolution is not working, and
    b) reduce the SG’s powers by removing requirement for consent and challenging the SG Continuity Bill, and
    c) set up a parallel Scottish administraion under UK control, and
    d) reduce SG funding to undermine their credibility, and
    e) divert funding direcfly to Unionist Councils to improve UK credibility, and
    f) rebrand produce as British, and
    g) alter the Constitution, and
    h) remove jurisdiction of ECJ, 29 Mar19, and
    i) have a no deal brexit (always been the aim) to avoid EU tax treaty changes,
    j) use Henry V111 to enforce draconian law changes, and lastly
    k) enact Emergency Powers to control dissent

    I am sure there are others, but you get the drift.

    Hopefully the SG has its antenna working and is ready when the time comes. Otherwise you will all be living in North Britain under Viceroy Mundell, but they will probably stab him and insert Davidson instead.

  167. Petra says:

    ‘Ian Blackford to meet Michel Barnier amid SNP calls to stay in single market.’


    ‘GALLERY: The AUOB Edinburgh independence march in pictures.’

  168. Robert Louis says:

    Liz g at 1252am,

    The treaty of union is an international treaty formed between two sovereign nations (kingdoms), by separate acts of parliament. The English parliament passed an act of union agreeing to the terms of the treaty and the Scots Parliament passed an act of union agreeing (sadly) to the terms of the treaty. It is an international treaty. Neither party may unilaterally change the terms, without the original treaty becoming null and void. Otherwise in Scotland we too could change the terms of the treaty as we choose.

    As RP points out above, for Westminster to introduce a new ‘act’ of union is baloney. It is as absurd as the French parliament introducing an act to amend the treaty of union. Why? simple, because the UK parliament (westminster) is not a signatory to the treaty, and NEVER has been.

  169. HYUFD says:

    Robert Peffers The usual whinge from you. Westminster of course has been the Parliament of England, Scotland and Wales since 1707 +Ireland in the 19th century, Northern Ireland since the 20th century.
    You may still want Scottish MPs to vote on only English laws and scrap EVEL but now Scotland has its own Parliament EVEL is only right (though I prefer an English Parliament)

  170. HYUFD says:

    Northern Ireland Protestants will of course never accept being part of the Republic of Ireland, after all Protestant loyalist paramilitaries only laid down their arms alongside the IRA when Stormont offered powersharing within the UK. Most Northern Irish Protestants also voted Leave in the EU referendum.

  171. HYUFD says:

    In Wales Plaid trails both Labour and the Tories in 2021 Welsh Assembly polls and of course Wales voted Leave anyway.

    In Gibraltar 99% voted to stay British in the 2002 referendum, 44% more than the still majority 55% of Scots who voted to stay British in 2014

  172. marydoll says:

    Is this not another diversionary tactic by the Brit Nats?

    We have a VERY successful indy march , the SNP have their conference. Lets not talk about that …..look this little group of Lords , most probably with their Scottish friends, have concocted this plan. Lets talk about that instead

  173. HYUFD
    “Jack Collatin, Bob Mack The problems with Universal Credit implementation are largely due to lack of Treasury support. The core aim, to ensure it always pays to work, remains a sound one.”
    Five million citizens on zero hours low paid slave work, and a welfare system that resulted in 120,000 UK citizens dying of State engineered benefits poverty since 2010, during Willie Rennie’s and Ruth Davidson’s Ultra Right Wing Slaughter of the Innocents, while the Red Tories ‘abstained’, in order to reward the rich with a 5% tax cut, and Big Business with state subsidised poverty wages expendable slaves is the driver behind Rape Clause, two child cap ATOS privatised assessments Universal Credit.
    But you know that, but good for you.
    These are the ‘tough decisions WM Politicians have made since the 2008 crash.
    Starve the poor into servile low paid uncertain drudgery, or death.

  174. Nana says:

    Corri Wilson presents this week’s Full Scottish and her guests are Maureen McGonigle from Scottish Women in Sport and tbc.

    Europe and the UK continue to struggle towards an awkward, unworkable, dog’s breakfast of an Irish backstop – amid claims there might be a deal before November, December or January, according to whom you believe.

  175. Nana says:

    Thread by @Trickyjabs: Long list of Tory abuse, fraud, violence, racism, sexism, homophobia, sectarianism, child abuse, manslaughter and much, much more

    One in five British people are suffering erosion of their rights because they are disabled, the government-backed Equality and Human Rights Commission has said in a damning report to the United Nations.

    Brexit: internalising the issue

  176. Nana says:

    Adriel Kasonta: Has Brexit Become a US Foreign Policy Tool Against the EU and Russia?

    The Brexit face, consumed with bitterness and hatred.

    Lawyers for the Metropolitan police admit to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal that Mark Kennedy’s undercover intimate relationship with Kate Wilson was human rights abuse.

  177. Petra says:

    Someone tied the EU flag around the Robert Fergusson (neck) statue in Edinburgh and had him carrying the Saltire. It looked fantastic and was also fitting as he had no time for the Union and wrote a number of poems to that effect, such as the Ghaists. Note that Westminster was trying to rip Scotland off at that time too.

    ‘The Ghaists is a powerful political poem and first appeared in print in Ruddiman’s Magazine in May 1773. That year the Westminster parliament proposed a Mortmain Bill which caused hot debate in Scotland. By this Bill, it was hoped to raise the value of government securities by allowing trustees of charities to invest all their funds in a general government fund at an interest rate of 3%. However, Scottish opinion, expressed in the journals and magazines of the day, was decidedly against the Bill. Future benefactors, they argued, would be discouraged from endowing institutions because their wills could be ignored. Scots did not want funds from their charities drawn out of Scotland to pay for a national debt run up in London, and at such a meagre interest rate which served only to benefit the English economy. As a result, the councils of Edinburgh and Glasgow, and others, called emergency meetings and petitioned against the Bill, and it did not become law….’


    ‘The map which proves opposition to Union was erased from Scotland’s history.’


  178. Nana says:

    NIcolaSturgeon: “Scotland is a nation, we have a voice of our own, and it’s very frustrating when that voice is completely cast aside.

    Gove’s Brexit future aspirations
    Scrabbling about in the rubbish tip

  179. Petra says:

    Nicola Sturgeon was interviewed on the BBC Breakfast programme earlier giving people like T May / Ruth Davidson a right showing up. She was clear, concise and honest and managed to cram in a fair bit of data without being interrupted too much. If she got as much airtime as say, Dirty Money Davidson we’d be home and dry.

  180. Ken500 says:

    The Westminster Tory/unionists have cut Education funding £6Billion a year, NHS £4Billion a year Welfare cuts £3Billion a year. That is their stated policies from 2015 to 2020. That is what is being implemented. With total damage to the UK economy. Every unionist Party in agreement. They have used a sleigh hammer to crack a nut. With total human suffering. Illegal under human rights Law. Groups are having to sue Westminster Gov. To try to ensure they do not break the Law. They break the Laws that they make. Criminal behaviour.

    They illegally cut Scottish budget funding 10% a year from 2010 till 2018. Cuts now amounting to £3Billion. Cut illegally from the Scottish budget. They are still trying take to take £Billions illegally and secretly from Scotland. They can only do it because people voted NO in 2014 IndyRef.

    The Scottish Gov is having to try to mitigate the damage being done. With not enough powers. They are being successful. With the Westminster regime limiting the success by holding back powers and intending to try and take 25 powers. In order to devastate the Scottish economy further if they are allowed to get away with it. Hands tied behind the back. Two steps forward. One step back.

    Scottish resources being taken illegally to fund congestion in London S/E since 1928 and before. The Scottish economy being used as a second rate satellite to fund the London S/E econmy to the detriment of the Scottish economy and people in Scotland. Not being treated equal and fair. Breaking the terms of the Act of Union.

    The Tory and unionist Parties are attacking the most vulnerable people in society. Sanctioning, starving and killing people. It is costing more. They are not saving anything. They have causing collateral damage within society for a pittance of the overall budget which is actually increasing. These cuts were totally unnecessary. Austerity was totally unneeded and in fact has caused more harm than even intended. A deviant, destructive policy.

    People voting YES could have stopped them. The Westminster Gov unionists politician lied to influence people to vote NO. They have ruined the Oil industry in Scotland with illegally high Tory taxes. 40% since Jan 2016. More before that from 2010. When Oil prices had fallen 75% . The sector was being taxed at 62%. The Tories ruined the Oil & Gas sector since 2010 by high taxes. Cutting production. Losing £Billion and thousands of jobs. They have cost Scotland the Scottish £Billions from tax evasion. £3Billion? a year By Westminster Gov not enforcing UK Gov tax Laws. HMRC not fit for purpose. Mass corruption in Westminster governance.

    The UK Westminster Gov as a member of the UN went against UN International Law and legal advise engaged in illegal wars destroying the UK/world economy. Thwarting International standards and UN principle. Repeated illegal behaviour breaking the Law. Must of them should be in jail. Ignorant incompetents including the present cabal.

    Alex Salmond has world leaders on speed dial, He has met most of them and their official administrations while representing Scotland, Negotiating trade deals and business deals for Scotland. Improving the Scottish economy. A great Ambassador for Scotland, The best recognised representative by billions of people. Putting Scotland on the world the map Alex Salmond was the main guide to Scottish prosperity. Spent his live on Scottish interests. Freedom, equality and justice the world over. The diffence since Devolution 2000. The only time since 1928 the Scottish population has increased. Stagnated from 1951 till 2000.

    All Westminster unionists parties have done is try to bring Scotland down.Akex Salmond actions with others standing up for Scotland and prosperity. They were responsible for most of it and Scotland’s great standing in International Affairs lauded the world over. Principles of Freedom, justice and equality. Scottish discovery and invention shaped the modern world. Recognised all over the world. Chinese – ‘Scotland the land of discovery and invention’ . ‘Britain a small island without any Empire’.

    Alex Salmond for President. Never mind the Westminster unionist tittle tattle and corruption. Westminster unionist Civil service corruption and manipulation. They can get lost. In a sea of inertia.

    No corrupt Polls can predict the outcome in an Election in three years time. Just a nonsense. They might have corrupt intentions but they do not have a crystal ball. Take them all with a pinch of salt. They are being used illegally, corruptly. to try and manipulate the vote. Ignoring proper guideline and methology. Corruptly using personal data detail. They should be put in jail.

    Pollsters Organisation have been fined and censored many times for illegal activities and donations. Gerrymandering. Still no one put in prison or on trial. A corrupt industry of manipulation, Just trying to get away with it but still under investigation, They just happened to have released a Poll (1000) of voting intentions with out of date statistics? at the time of one of the biggest political demonstrations in Scotland. Funny that – no co incidence? Just ignore. Not worth bothering about. A game of chance. On recent results and outcomes. Always wrong. Rev Stu got better results with proper analysis,

    There would be better accurate predictions putting a tail on a donkey blindfolded. A Poll not worth the paper it was printed on to predict an election result three years ahead. Just a waste of time and money. A commentary? of a general tread of past or past intentions all ready known.

    May et al as corrupt as they come. Johnston etc even more. In on all the corruption at the centre of it. The embarrassing smirking and dancing, what an affront, it will go down in history. The total and utter complete incompetence, The juggenaut coming down the tracks to get them back. They had better watch their backs.

    The migration situation was not caused by EU membershipor any EU policies or freedom of movement. England is the third most densely populated country in Europe because of Westminster (foreign) policies not because EU policies. Not the third most densely populated country in the world,

    The worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11World War was caused by the Westminster corrupt unionist Parties. Costing £Billions damaging the world economy. The illegal wars bombing the world to bits, Causing havoc and starvation. They were told by the UN not to undertake. Undermining UN International Laws because the US is financing it. Reneging on the UN principles and membership. Trying to get away with it by the multiple of lies, as usual. They won’t. It is coming back to bite. Big time. Ending their corrupt administration.

    £Billions going out of Scotland every year to pay Westminster debt repayments on loans and PPI schemes not borrowed or spent in Scotland, illegally, unequal, unjust and unfair.

  181. Nana says:

    On #bbcgms @NicolaSturgeon confirms that @theSNP MPs support for a 2nd #EU referendum across the UK will be unconditional but we will make the case for Scotland’s position to be protected in the event of us being outvoted again

  182. Collie says:

    Dipping in and of the SNP Conference on the BBC Parliament channel and I have one criticism of the Conference set up.

    Where did they dig that old blue curtain up from? That cheap looking backdrop is a mess.

    I hope they change it in time for Nicola’s major speech. Because that speech will be seen worldwide.

    What were her stage managers thinking of when they come up with the idea of hanging an old blue curtain up?

    Apart from that,,,a lot of good commonsense speeches being made.

    Rant over.

  183. Ken500 says:

    Rev Stu know you are busy but get rid of the unionist troll from elsewhere clogging up the airwaves with totally irrelevant misinfirmation and lies. Trying to degrade the website. Unfortunately some people reply.

    Thanks for the links, Nanna. Brilliant as usual. That’s a billion Rev Stu and Nana etc, The organisers and the marchers. One fabulous occasion. Giving notice of intent.

  184. Colin Alexander says:

    With Brexit negotiations dragging on and on, and as a result, an indyref announcement being put further and further back,the chances are increasing there could be a general election or Scottish election before any indyref could be held.

    If that happens,and a straight out mandate for independence is not sought by the SNP next time, then I probably won’t be voting SNP.

  185. galamcennalath says:

    Survation survey. So now we know that if Brexit CANCELLED support for Indy is …

    Yes 46%
    No 54%

    …. which is probably irrelevant!

    Meanwhile in the real world we know support is ….

    Yes 50-52%
    No 48-50%

  186. Ottomanboi says:

    ‘300 years of lying, cheating, double-dealing, contempt, exploitation, colonialism and cultural marginalization and now Brexit have made the Treaty of Union irrelevant’ proclaimed a feisty SNP leader to the assembled faithful. ‘We Scots are a sovereign people, no power on Earth can interfere with that’. Then seizing a copy of the Treaty the leader tore the document into shreds. The conference hall rocked to the foundations.
    Some day, soon……

  187. Ken500 says:

    Scotland also lost £Billions having to finance the illegal wars destroying the (world) economy.

    Gove now ‘Stig of the dump’ @ Wings twitter. (Google or whatever it) Twitter accessible through the internet. You do not have to be on twitter to read the comments. Can’t comment without access but can read any comments. On any twitter stream.

  188. Collie says:

    Someone described the Union Jack as the flag of English Colonialism.

    That just about nails it for me.

    When being flown outside of England, it signifies you are nothing more than a Colony of England.

  189. Ken500 says:

    The blue curtain is hung up by the conference centre organisers. Ie the premises. It is part if the Stage. It can be viewed because the SNP have obviously allowed increased media access backstage. Openness and all that jazz. They do not need to. Letting people see how Conference works. Access behind the the seens/screens. Not necessary. Seeing Nicola etc coming and going.

    The media wants in on everything. Even if they are not wanted. Cretins. Trailing nonsense. They can often be see there. Scowls on their vacant coupons at such great success. Totally out of touch will proceding. A blot in the landscape, Then go and ‘report’ a lot of twisted nonsense that there masters want. Nothing to do with reality. They would try and see folk pants if they could, Gutter Press. That is all they mainly ‘report’ in general. The colour of someone’s pants or tattoos or something. All sexes. Vile Vindictive.

  190. Iain says:

    The march at the weekend was a triumph of the independence movement.
    According to Police Scotland the number of marchers was 193 thousand.
    The SNP is the second largest party in the UK, overtaking the tories.
    Unionist media is dying!
    Paper circulation has never been lower and the bbc is hemoraging viewers.
    The Yoon parties have an ageing demographic and are shrinking.
    The orange order and their labour pals have to keep their membership numbers secret as they are so tiny.
    Scotland is becoming a good place and soon will be free.
    And best of all the uk is breaking up because of Brexit.
    We have achieved so much and so much more is possible when we are free from this unequal union.

  191. marydoll says:

    no no no
    it must be conditional on a second indyref vote, otherwise we’ll get nothing ….or nobody will vote. Either way nothing

  192. Giving Goose says:


    The Union Jack is the flag of food banks, poor education, crumbling infrastructure, political corruption, a half-arsed navy, racism, grinding poverty and ignorance.

  193. Clootie says:

    ….breaking news

    8:58 colin alexander would not vote for the SNP…probably!

  194. Fred says:

    Mol Ben Folks with the black Flag of Catalonia, so not a cashmere trade-mark then?

    Burns castigated the Edinburgh gentry who let poor Ferguson die in extreme poverty! “A tythe o what ye spend at cartes it would hae stocked his pantry!” Burns paid for a stone for his unmarked grave in Canongate kirkyard!.

  195. Ken500 says:

    The corruption of the Westminster unionist Gov

    In 2010 the ConDems were elected on a manifesto of supporting Education, NHS and vulnerable people. That was the committed manifesto promises. No deviation.

    As soon as they were elected they preceded to put in place plans to wreck them. Supported by every unionist Parties. Instead of increasing funding or protecting funding for these essential services. Putting in plans to cut them £13Billion a year. From 2015 till 2020. Using a sleigh hammer to crack. A nut which would mean increased costs.

    Completely renegading on all promises. Telling a pack of lies to the electorate on the priorities. To get elected. The LibDem puppets keeping up the corrupt administration. Spending £Billion on non mandated projects. Not even included in their manifesto. Not consulted or evaluated properly. Grotesque projects of no value. Putting even more money to benefit an already disproportionately, over consuming, congested London S/E.

    Labour (plus) could have voted May down in September 2017. To stop this confusion and corruption. They abstained. They do not want the poison chalice,

    Even when Scotland votes for Independence. There will have to be negotiations which will take time. In any eventuality. Just as negotiations are going on just now. It will be an extension. Until there is a IndyRef that can be won. Soon by every indication.

  196. Nana says:

    Sorry, forgot the link to conference. Blackford on now

  197. HandandShrimp says:

    According to Police Scotland the number of marchers was 193 thousand.


    I am not sure the police issued a count. No idea where 193k comes from but I think it is a Facebook creation. The police only quoted someone from Edinburgh Council saying there was 20k there but I don’t think anyone is taking that seriously either. AUOB say there was about 100k there maybe a bit less maybe a bit more. I was at Glasgow which had a police estimate of around 35k and Edinburgh was way bigger, it felt at least twice the size so 70k plus is not unreasonable.

    Whatever, it was our biggest march ever and one of the biggest in modern Scottish political history, if not the biggest.It was a glorious day and a magnificent march.

  198. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thanks very much to Black Douglas and msdidi for identifying the flag I saw: most interesting and it will prevent sleepless nights. Every day’s a school day on Wings.

    The darker blue of the BA I have seen explained as a) to increase contrast with the St George’s Cross and make identification at a distance easier b) a consequence of better fade-resistant dyes but, given the historical/legendary origin of our flag, surely light (sky) blue should have been the original colour.

    Thanks most of all to Nana for highlighting the sneaky wizard wheeze they’re going to try on in the Lords to bind us inseparably to England a la Catalonia.

    Used to call Nana Queen of Links but now I think she’s some kind of All-Seeing Eye which Never Sleeps in Scotland’s defence.

  199. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Iain at 9:50 am.

    You typed,
    “According to Police Scotland the number of marchers was 193 thousand.”

    Can you provide link to the source of that claim? Edinburgh Police Division haven’t changed their comment from after the march:-

    “Edinburgh Police Division
    6 October at 17:20 ·


    Inspector Murray Starkey said: “Police Scotland worked alongside event organisers and partners today, Saturday 6 October, for a planned march in the capital.

    “City of Edinburgh Council estimate that 20,000 people took part in the march from Johnston Terrace to Holyrood Park.”

    That’s from their Facebook page at:-

    What’s the source you are quoting?

  200. Robert Peffers says:

    @HYUFD says: 8 October, 2018 at 7:29 am:

    ” … Westminster of course has been the Parliament of England, Scotland and Wales since 1707 +Ireland in the 19th century, Northern Ireland since the 20th century.”

    And the usual pish from you.

    The United Kingdom is, would you believe? a united Kingdom it is not, and never has been, a country.

    It is a United Kingdom that has only two signatory kingdoms as equally sovereign signatory kingdom that signed, “The Treaty of Union”, a bipartite Kingdom and one of those kingdoms is comprised of three distinct countries.

    It is not a country and, being legally a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms then either kingdom can terminate the treaty if the legal sovereign of that kingdom so decides.

    Now under the Glorious Revolution the law of the three country Kingdom of England change from the old rule of law of divine right of kings but did not remove the legal sovereignty of the monarchy of the Kingdom of England. Instead they forced the joint monarchs they invited to assume the kingdoms three crowns to legally delegate their divine right to the Parliament of England

    However, the Kingdom of Scotland was independent in 1688 and thus the two kingdoms Rules of Law differ and they are incompatible and that is as stated in Article 19 of the Treaty of Union.

    Furthermore, the Parliament of England was permanently put in recession on 30 April 1707 and has never sat since. There simply is no Parliament of the Kingdom of England and no one has been elected as a member of it.

    Westminster is thus legally The Parliament of the United Kingdom and when the reconvened Parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland decides the Treaty of Union is over then there is no United Kingdom Parliament and no Parliament of the Kingdom or country of England and guess what? Her Majesty the Queen of England is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England but not in the Kingdom of Scotland.

    If, after Scotland decides the union is over there is no united kingdom and no government of either the kingdom or the country of England.

    At which point who is to say that Ireland will not assume control of the North of Ireland or Wales will not declare itself a republic? After all there is no legally elected government of the United Kingdom nor of the Kingdom of England.

  201. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Nana.

    Here’s a link to the Google translation of your earlier link – “” –

    Mind you, it appears to translate the Danish for “Scots” as “shots”!

  202. Dr Jim says:

    What if the positions were reversed and Scotland was in charge of the United Kingdom, how long do we think it would take for the English to go mental at Scotland keeping 43% of Englands money and calling it foreign affairs and defence, then using it to build infrastrucure in Scotland which Scotland would say benefitted England, then changing the voting system to PR so lessening the strength of Englands population vote from their existing FPTP and any dissent from the English to be met with Scottish derision

    Would they be delighted with their own version of democracy right back at them

    Well they wouldn’t would they and likely they’d want a referendum to leave our *Precious Union* then claiming all sorts of *Grievances* but Scotland would be telling them they’re too wee and too poor and can’t possibly govern themselves like us Scots can because we’re superior and if they cause too much trouble we might even send the army round to give them a slap

    If every country in the world behaved like England then it would naturally follow that America Russia and China would run everything according to English style weight of population democracy which is *I’m bigger than you therefore I win*

    Kinda like domestic abuse really, Noo, exactly like domestic abuse

  203. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Do these numbers include the freebies that are seen more and more at airports and the like?”

    No. These are paid sales.

  204. Nana says:


    Sleep! what’s that again?
    I’m polishing my crystal ball at the moment due it being a wee bit cloudy 🙂

    Thanks Brian 11.04, I forgot to say “use translator” and
    I usually right click page for translation but doesn’t always work.
    There’s a few articles in the foreign press this morning.

  205. Abulhaq says:

    Be assured the union flag is almost universally perceived as the symbol of England.
    The niceties of the British=English, Scots, Welsh, N Irish all together does not compute in the minds of people in the wider world. Scots who travel beyond UK shores will already know that of course from references to Scotland in an English ‘regional’ context.
    Independence alone is the solution to this tiresome, vexatious matter.

  206. Bob Mack says:

    Undoubtedly the figures for the march will be varied according to which side of the fence you are on.

    My gran daughter who is a private events organiser was there and estimated around 80,000,to 100,000. She is good at calculating that sort of numbers.

    The thing that really matters though is that it was substantial, and made the Unionists take note. Job done.

  207. Nana says:

    Fascinating – and v worrying for unionists – research just coming out today from Edinburgh and Cardiff unis. Clear majorities of English Conservatives would support Scottish independence (79%) or the collapse of the NI Peace Process (75%) as the price of Brexit. Wow

  208. Fred says:

    Nana is the Lynx that never sleeps!

  209. Daisy Walker says:

    Re Crowd Numbers

    I had a quick google and it appears the tools available to analyse crowds do so from the point of view of looking at the crowd/area etc, and counting them. All very logical.

    But what if there was an App, where-by when you reach the designated area, you – as a marcher – can register your presence by mobile phone (not your ID, just your presence).

    Outwith the designated area, the app will not function. So built in verification of numbers of that geographical location.

    I believe there are already ‘drop box’ type apps, designed for treasure hunt type activities, where you have to be in a certain location, before your phone will receive the ‘message’.

    This idea is a variation on that theme. Nearly everyone has a mobile phone these days.

    Anyone know someone with the tech skills to develop same. Could be used internationally.

    At the risk of blowing my own trumpet – THIS IS A REALLY GOOD IDEA. Please pass it on and hopefully someone with the ability will make it happen. Be really nice if its one of Scotland’s own. And why not, we seem to have a history of producing innovative persons.

    Could be lucrative too, if every caller paid 1p to register at the march and in return there were verified numbers of attendees, and their mobile phone details are kept private./deleted once registered (deleting would be the most economically wise decision – otherwise in the event of any major crime, the authorities would get warrants to try and ascertain who was present, as this would be a logical line of enquiry.

    It would go a long way to stopping the arguments about crowd numbers at all sorts of events. Trumps inauguration anyone?

    And you can bet the Police officer in charge of such a peaceful event such as Saturdays would rather put in their CV they were responsible for Policing a Huge event, rather than a small one – where verified numbers can’t be argued with.

    Look forward to seeing something like this soon. Could call it the – Aye Count.

  210. ben madigan says:

    in reply to Dr Jim who wrote “Kinda like domestic abuse really, Noo, exactly like domestic abuse”

    Please see this post about gaslighting which supports your point of view

  211. HYUFD says:

    Robert Peffers The Queen would remain Queen of Wales and Northern Ireland (and indeed Scotland as even the SNP want to keep her as Head of State) in the event of an independence vote in Scotland. Westminster would simply revert to being the Parliament of England, Northern Ireland and Wales and the PM would remain in charge of the executive on the Queens behalf.

  212. HYUFD says:

    As Westminster is sovereign over England, Wales and Northern Ireland (Even if you insist the Scottish people are sovereign in Scotland) all it takes is a few statute changes

  213. HYUFD says:

    Nana Does not guarantee Scots would vote for independence even if ultra hard Brexit. Panelbase yesterday for example had Scots voting 52% No 48% Yes to independence even if the UK left the EU with No Deal. Though of course polling shows even most English voters want a deal with the EU

  214. HYUFD says:

    And May is moving towards a Deal with the EU for a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period to negotiate a FTA by keeping the whole UK in the Customs Union until a technical solution is found to the Irish border

  215. Dr Jim says:

    Have you still not understood that there is no solution to the Irish border because the people of Northern Ireland don’t want a solution imposed upon them by the UK government in any shape or form, Arlene Foster and the DUP do not represent Northern Ireland they represent the Orange Lodge

    The people of Northern Ireland are on the verge of deciding this one for themselves, don’t ever be mislead that Unionists want to be part of the UK because of political reasons because politics have nothing to do with it, it was the Brits who created the problem using the always divisive tactics they employ *Partition* using sectarianism which they created

    Northern Ireland is a Brit made project and they know it and the Irish know it. so NO it’s not that they (Protestants) like Brits, they don’t, they just dislike Catholics more but that’s about to change because they see and know how prosperous and peaceful the Republic is and not being idiots are ready to choose all Ireland again

    Why should a Northern Irish pensioner continue to accept a state pension of £154 per week when his neighbour over the border born and bred in the same country receives £209 per week as part of the EU

    Pragmatism dear boy

  216. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jack collatin says: 8 October, 2018 at 7:50 am:

    ” … Five million citizens on zero hours low paid slave work, and a welfare system that resulted in 120,000 UK citizens dying of State engineered benefits poverty since 2010, during Willie Rennie’s and Ruth Davidson’s Ultra Right Wing Slaughter of the Innocents, while the Red Tories ‘abstained’, in order to reward the rich with a 5% tax cut, …

    Not to mention that while claiming, “We are all in this austerity together”

    The most wealthy section of the United Kingdom population more than doubled their own personal wealth.

    You are not suffering austerity while more than doubling your own personal wealth.

    They are quite simply transferring cash from the poor to make the wealthy even more wealthy. It is the poor who are bailing out the banks – not the government.

    And guess what? The government in power when they changed the main burden of taxation from direct, (on wealth and earnings), to indirect, (on goods and services), taxation was Labour and they knew full well that indirect taxation has the effect of transferring the main burden of taxation from those most able to pay onto those least able to pay.

  217. Clydebuilt says:

    Bob Mack @11.59am . . . It’s not the Unionists we want to take notice . . . It’s the people of Scotland

    Good news about your GD’s estimate

  218. Robert Peffers says:

    @ Colin Alexander says: 8 October, 2018 at 8:58 am:

    ” … I probably won’t be voting SNP.”

    Ach! Colin, we mostly all got that message from you long, long ago.

    Every post you have made to date has been anti-SG, anti-SNP but mainly anti-Nicola Sturgeon.

  219. yesindyref2 says:

    The interdimensional problem with your large pod diving whale surfacing actions, is that, presuming you are male, they all have a frequency well above 180 Hz, which could I guess be caused by bilateral cryptorchidism. The result, frankly, is a miasma of intracranial self-cancelling energy transfers which results in a zero-sense auditory emission which then transfers to the skeletal pollex nerve endings in a random fashion, and the result? Well, we see that here in a repetitive fashion.

  220. Robert Peffers says:

    @HYUFD says: 8 October, 2018 at 12:46 pm:

    ” … (and indeed Scotland as even the SNP want to keep her as Head of State) in the event of an independence vote in Scotland.”

    Rubbish! The SNP say no such thing – in the first place that little matter is of no concern in Scotland because the Queen is NOT sovereign under Scots law. The monarchy of Scotland became, “Protectors of the People’s sovereignty”, upon the acceptance of the Declaration of Arbroath. Robert Bruce had that precise legal position and since then the Monarch is titled King/Queen of Scots.

    The SNP have no official policy except that the people of Scotland, as dictated by Scots law, have the legal powers to drive out a monarch the people decide is not protecting their legal sovereignty. Thus the SNP will not bother with royalty until after Scotland reasserts her independence. Then will the people decide. May I quote you the relevant part of the Declaration of Arbroath:-

    “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. “

    ” … Westminster would simply revert to being the Parliament of England, Northern Ireland and Wales and the PM would remain in charge of the executive on the Queens behalf.”


    Let me put it this way for you – Just as the independent kingdom of Scotland will require to be recognised as a nation by the rest of the Worlds major nations so also will the Kingdom of England that legally has no elected members.

    Now get this, if Westminster attempts what you suggest the first problem will be that elected that 27 member States in the EU will probably not recognise the former United Kingdom Government as the Government of The Kingdom of England.

    The Welsh may decide they want Cardiff to be their parliament of Wales, after all the Welsh elected them but did not elect the bulk of the former Westminster Parliamentarians and The Northern Irish will baulk at a border across the island of Ireland.

    Much of the World’s now independent Nations once ruled by Westminster will see their chances to level the score they have with Westminster and not recognise Westminster as the Parliament of England – For example, India still remembers the rule of the Raj as does Pakistan and Westminster did ditch Australia, New Zealand and Canada to join the EU. Spain will probably reclaim Gibraltar and not recognise Westminster. Africa too has scores to settle. The term, “Perfidious Albion”, was not a term of endearment.

  221. HYUFD says:

    Dr Jim Moat Protestants in Northern Ireland voted to Leave the EU and of course Loyalist paramilitaries would revive their bombing campaign rather than be forced into the Republic of Ireland against their will. It is a matter of culture above all and of course technically Ireland has higher unemployment than the UK 5% to 4%

  222. HYUFD says:

    Robert Peffers Inequality has fallen in the UK since 2008.

    Alex Salmond was famously so monarchist he said Scotland would keep the Queen even if England became a Republic.

  223. HYUFD says:

    An England and Wales outside the EU (I know it pains you but Wales also voted Leave which blows a hole in your anti England argument) could of course not give a toss what the EU thinks. There is no appetite for independence in Wales as shown by the Fact Plaid polls third in Welsh Assembly polls, Northern Irish Protestants voted Leave and will never accept being part of the RoI

  224. HYUFD says:

    The Indian PM has said he wants more trade with post Brexit Britain, Trudeau has said he wants ‘seamless trade’ with post Brexit Britain and is a good friend of Princes William and Harry and Australia PM Morrison also backs Brexit

  225. HYUFD says:

    99% of Gibraltatians voted to stay British in 2002 and Britain’s military is bigger than Spain. May recently agreed a number of trade deals with Africa.

    I know your every waking moment is consumed by hatred of the English bordering on xenepobia but you are as is usually the case wrong

  226. yesindyref2 says:

    Good Heavens, Skeletor would be jealous!

  227. K1 says:

    ‘I know your every waking moment is consumed by hatred of the English bordering on xenepobia’

    Once again you show yourself to be exactly as described:

    What a disgusting little mind you have. And what a disgusting projection to cast on to others.

    ‘Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.’

    ‘Carl Jung considered that the unacceptable parts of the personality represented by the Shadow archetype were particularly likely to give rise to projection, both small-scale and on a national/international basis.[19] Marie-Louise Von Franz extended her view of projection, stating that “wherever known reality stops, where we touch the unknown, there we project an archetypal image”.

    In case that’s too difficult for you…that which you project on to others is that which you have denied in yourself:

    Turn it around Simon: I know every waking moment is consumed by hatred of the Scottish bordering on xenophobia.

    The thing is Simon, it is ‘you’ that has decided to spend your every waking hour on here casting aspersions of this polity…

    Rattled are we Simon?

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