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Wings Over Scotland

Getting to Fawkes

Posted on October 11, 2016 by

Readers may be aware that Wings Over Scotland is (fairly remarkably, really) the UK’s second-most-read politics blog, behind the hardcore right-wing “Guido Fawkes”.

Our “competitor” isn’t a site we look at a lot – the comments make the Daily Mail readership seem like enlightened and thoughtful moderates – but last week someone asked us about a smear piece they’d run on SNP MP Corri Wilson, and we only just remembered today to check it out. Our initial findings weren’t well received.


It seems that Mr Fawkes and his minions aren’t too keen on scrutiny themselves.


The pic above contains the entire article, so we may as well break it all down.

“Full troughing marks to SNP MP Corri Wilson, who has only been in Westminster for a year yet has managed to get both her son and daughter on the public payroll.”

That’s an interesting allegation, because it implies that Wilson is employing two of her children at the same time, an implication reinforced with what sounds like use of the present tense in the next line.

“She’s hired her wee bairns Kieran and Shannon as ‘personal assistants'”

Was it true? It didn’t seem to be. When we checked the most recent (20 September) published Register Of Interests Of Members’ Secretaries And Research Assistants on the UK Parliament website, which does what it says on the tin, Wilson’s son Kieran Donoghue was indeed listed, but there was no sign of Shannon.


However, when we tweeted about it we got a handy tip-off from Buzzfeed’s Jamie Ross about a newer update to the Register Of Members’ Financial Interests, dated 3 October, on which both names appeared:


The problem was that it showed only one of them had ever been employed at a time. Kieran worked up until the end of August, then Shannon took over a fortnight later.

This is all perfectly legal – scores of MPs employ family members, though the SNP do it proportionately far less than Labour or the Tories – and Fawkes didn’t say it wasn’t. The sneakily-worded piece didn’t actually explicitly say they were both on the books at once (which would be against the rules), though any reasonable person reading it would very likely have come away with that impression.

However, after that things get a lot murkier.

“…on taxpayer-funded salaries of up to £34,000 each. A handy top up to mum’s £75,000 salary, sending the Wilson household income from the taxpayer well into six figures.”

Now, readers who’ve learned anything from reading Wings Over Scotland in the last few years will have alert klaxons ringing loudly in their heads at the use of the weasel words “up to” there. As far as we can tell, there is no record yet published of how much Wilson paid either child, which would make the last line completely baseless speculation. Or as it’s sometimes known, a lie.

Guido’s response (see also above) didn’t exactly fill us with reassuring confidence.


Alex Wickham, the site’s “news editor”, flew straight off the deep end with a string of insults but oddly was unable to provide any evidence of how much Wilson had paid either child. (Given that Shannon Donoghue started less than a month ago, she may very well not have been paid a penny yet.)

The assertion that “the Wilson household income from the taxpayer [is] well into six figures”, then, appears to be completely unsupported. Even if Wilson had paid Kieran Donoghue the absolute maximum permitted under the rules – and even if she and her son and/or daughter were to be held to represent a single “household”, which seems questionable their combined salary would only have just crept over the £100K figure.

Guido Fawkes appears, then, to have made a categorical assertion for something it can’t prove, which may or may not be true, and which even if true would be entirely legal and above board, in an attempt to create a misleading impression of wrongdoing.

If we were them, we suppose we’d be angry if someone drew attention to that too.

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    375 to “Getting to Fawkes”

    1. Garrion says:

      Nicely done. You just let them demonstrate what a blarting bunch of cocksparrows they really are without offering a single insult.

      kung fu.

    2. Dave Hansell says:

      What can you expect from BA Hull [failed miserably]?

    3. R-type Grunt says:

      Fur Fawkes Sake!

    4. bobajock says:

      Ahh – fighting the man.

      How pathetically sad – it is now the Express newspaper.

    5. Ken MacColl says:

      Yet another inaccurate SNP bad item with the added gratutous bonus of some”locker room banter” Sad , sad, sad.

    6. heedtracker says:

      Why is virtually the whole of UK hackdom like this? Smear, lie, tantrum, sweary abuse. Its a classy trade alright.

    7. jimnarlene says:

      Strange that Guido Fawkes’ namesake appears to be a britnat loon.

    8. Vestas says:

      I have to confess I quite like

      I don’t read any of the BTL stuff as its mainly long-term grudge shit between people I couldn’t care less about.

      It is also probably more right-wing than the Telegraph & is very Israel-friendly. I’m not sure how that happened from a blog which is “published” in Eire by an Eire citizen for a UK market. Then again thats why I’m not rish I guess?

      The bottom line is that has broken more politicians (Labour/Tory/whoever) than anyone else in living memory.

      For Stu to be the next most read UK politics blog is incredible. I’m genuinely astounded – your hosting costs must be something to behold compared to when you started 😀

    9. Macart says:

      Good grief!

      Been to this Fawkes site once a while back as I recall. Didn’t fancy it much then and on that showing won’t be in a hurry to visit any time soon.

    10. TYRAN says:

      All Alex Wankman can do is hurl insults.

    11. Thepnr says:

      So Guido Fawkes, a “hardcore right wing blog” is the most widely read blog in the UK. No surprise there then that we’re leaving the EU.

      Look at the state we are in now. Thanks Guido you lying Tory douchebag for all your help in getting us to where we are today.

    12. manandboy says:

      Guido Fawkes’ Alex Wickham bites the dust. It was a mis-match. Well done, Stu, for clearing up the sewage

    13. Dan Huil says:

      Well played, Rev, once again. Hysterical britnats can’t take it when they are proved wrong; they just get more hysterical.

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “your hosting costs must be something to behold compared to when you started”

      They’re around 50x what they were in the first year 🙂

    15. Robert Graham says:

      This is what happens when interacting with a answering machine or indeed a brick at least a brick has some use eventually , I believe the Fox site as well as the previous Express arse piece to be Government departments set up with the purpose of keeping sites of interest engaged , it only takes one of these dopes to utter the usual pish and it gets attention the same as interlopers on Indy sites they are meant to distract attention from the normal passing information that Indy sites usually engage in, A knowledgeable audience can cause problems for the Union and they well know that ,the more we have the less they like it ,
      Well done REV keep it up by the looks of it your site is the only game in town and they know it and i believe it worries them .

    16. Thepnr says:

      More than twice as many Tories in parliament employ family members 225 Tory v 11% SNP. what’s Guido’s view on that and where can I read it on “his” blog.

      “His” blog by the way in my view is just a Tory front for their exposure online. That’s why that blog gets so many exclusives from the Tories and the MSM.

    17. Thepnr says:

      That should have said 22% not 225. Oops.

    18. Vestas says:

      When reading order-order (dunno how much “Guido” does now) it is amusing to realise that “Guido” is an Eire citizen and is (AIUI) no longer resident in the UK.

      I have to say that order-order was better before his minions took over, although his contradictory UK out of EU, Eire in views say it all 🙂

      Its a site worth watching, less now than before as there’s more dross rather than “gotchas” on MPs these days.

      IME the site has always gone a bit less “full-on” for Scottish stories, probably because they don’t give a shit about Scotland rather than anything else.

      #2 behind order-order is something else though Stu. It is in fact pretty amazing as your site deals with something that is mainly ignored by UK politics blogs.

    19. galamcennalath says:

      I have occassionally looked at Guido Fawkes when there is something of relevance to Scotland.

      My impression upon these visits is it Yoon London focused tabloid in nature. Anti Scottish drivel, basically. Playing to the London bubble.

      Interesting that their tabloid dodgy journalistic rating is not much better than the Express’s!

      Where is your evidence? Seems a straight forward request. Still, when Yoonery is involved, evidence isn’t something they bother with much.

    20. Peter, LL.B says:

      One of the reasons that I deactivated twitter sick of the prevalence of tosh like this being twittered by right whingers and what I dubbed “uber Tory” or “Toryista” tweeters. Had some “fun and games” with the puerile name calling tactics of the likes of @screwlabour and @DrGABaines,and their supportive crew, even though I was moderately left wing supporter of the public sector. Still twitter search and check what is being tweeted for occasional amusement.

    21. Vronsky says:

      Guido organised an appeal to send pizzas to the Israeli troops attacking Gaza. It is quite hard to imagine anything lower than that.

    22. galamcennalath says:


      “I have occassionally looked at… ” should of course be “I have looked occassionally at .. ”

      Split infinitive. I’ve been reading too many tabloid articles. 😉

    23. People Carrier says:

      Ok, I appreciate the dissection of the GF assertion. However, and I think I’m going to get pelters here – if a Labour, Tory or Lib Dem MP/MSP employed their children in their work capacity, I’d be shaking my head in disgust (legal or not). It just doesn’t look or feel right. Personally, I just don’t like it.

    24. One_Scot says:

      Guido getting his ass handed to him on a plate by the Rev and then cries to his mum. Lol.

      It was so good it was worth saying twice.

    25. Thepnr says:

      @People Carrier

      I can see your point, apparently though 22% of Tories “employ” a family member, 20% of labour and 11% of SNP do the same. Personally I see nothing wrong in that if it is genuine employment.

      Put it this way, the workload an MP has will require assistance and employment of someone if they are to do their job properly.

      There are far worse things going on in Parliament especially when it comes to lobbying. Cash for questions anyone?

      Now that is true corruption yet the guilty get off with it.

    26. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT But I have just watched Boris Johnson call for folk to march on the Russian Embassy .

      May I call on folk to march on Westminster saying something along the lines of ” not in my name’?

      I am utterly sickened by the hypocrisy shown by the US and UK governments – let us all remind them how Iraq , Afghanistan and Libya look today and how many deaths are to be laid at their door.

    27. galamcennalath says:

      People Carrier says:

      “if a Labour, Tory or Lib Dem ”

      They do. They always have. And by all accounts they do it more than the SNP.

      Perhaps a party could have an internal rule which says No. That might look better to some people.

      However, on the other hand a family member can be very effective because you know their abilities completely. Also, their loyalty would presumably be higher. It is possible to make a case for it being a good thing too.

    28. Clapper57 says:

      FFS not more c*nts to add to the never ending c*nts list !

    29. Vestas says:

      “Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      11 October, 2016 at 6:07 pm

      “your hosting costs must be something to behold compared to when you started”

      They’re around 50x what they were in the first year”

      I know you run fundraising stuff now and then but if you have some way to do it more regularly (that doesn’t involve PayPal – this is a big deal to me) then it’d be good to hear about it.

      #indyref2 is coming and if your blog is the second-most viewed political blog in the UK then I’m sure you’re planning ahead. By that I mean funding & you being “squeaky clean”.

      BTW please update the link to Munguin’s blog. Someone hacked his account or something so its moved to wordpress (

    30. mike cassidy says:

      galamcennalath 6.13

      scotphobic stuff like this.

      No wonder he threw the rattle out the pram when the Rev exposed his bullshit.

    31. Camz says:

      Dislike politicians of any description employing family, and especially their offspring. It creates added pressure on politician to keep the job, which creates potential for the worst sort of politician; one which won’t leave and will say anything to keep their job. Or if you like, Westminster to a tee.

      That all said, it’s good that you pick apart the vague statements of sources that ought to be better at it.

    32. Davy says:

      Look Stu, this may be me stating the obvious but I think they may not like you.

      Think back? was it something you said !

    33. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      Your link is blank mike please resubmit.

    34. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve seen order-order at times, on the way to finding something out via an initial search phrase, you can get enough extra search terms from it occasionally to get to where you really want to be – something definitive like a commons select committee report, rather than extreme fantasy.

      That’s all it’s useful for.

    35. Takeour blueback says:

      I’d also like to see a subscription option – paypal or not (or both)! Would like to make regular contributions – get it sorted Rev ?

    36. Vestas says:

      Some of you seem to think that Alex Wickham=Guido?

      Umm no.

      Paul Staines is Guido.

      Alex is the mini-mini-me version of Paul.

      Can’t remember the mini-me guy who was above Alex in the hierarchy but I think he’s a Tory MP/MEP now (not joking).

      BTW I’m no tory but if you restrict yourself to the article (ie don’t go BTL) then it normally has some interesting stories about MPs of all “colours”.

      Bit like Private Eye used to be before Mr “I’m a banana” became just that….

    37. Packhorse Pete says:

      My guess is that this guido was bullied at school. And, not having the nerve to stand up to the bullies, started rumours about them-untraceable of course. A sort of Harold Skinner from Billy Bunter books.
      All guesswork of course, but with as much evidence as he supplies for his pusillanimous little pieces.
      As my mother used to say “more to be pitied than scorned”.

    38. Fred says:

      Should be hung, drawn & quartered like the last bastard called Guido! Able Seaman Staines ditto!

    39. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Subscription option”



    40. Thepnr says:

      @Takeour blueback

      The subscription option is there under the donate button at the top of the page. It could be more obvious but then…

    41. Kevin says:

      Fawkes clearly wincing at the thought his ‘crown’ is teetering on his lying, right-wing napper. But worse; threat of its passing to an Independence-supporting, clever-as-you-like Scot has elicited the only response available in times of defeat: personal insult.

      Well-done, Stu felled another with your mighty pen

    42. Graeme Doig says:


      “Interesting stories”. That’s one way of describing them.

      These anti Scottish ranters seem to have a real eye for detail. Nice work Stu

    43. Stoker says:

      Rev wrote:

      “Readers may be aware that Wings Over Scotland is (fairly remarkably, really) the UK’s second-most-read politics blog,”

      Just think how well you could do if *you* started bullshitting.
      And don’t go getting any ideas, we like WOS just the way it is. 🙂

    44. Luigi says:

      Dorothy Devine says:

      11 October, 2016 at 6:27 pm

      OT But I have just watched Boris Johnson call for folk to march on the Russian Embassy .

      May I call on folk to march on Westminster saying something along the lines of ” not in my name’?

      I am utterly sickened by the hypocrisy shown by the US and UK governments – let us all remind them how Iraq , Afghanistan and Libya look today and how many deaths are to be laid at their door.

      Not to mention the utter devastation being visited upon innocent Yemenis by the Suadis (aided and abetted by guess who)? Our wonderful UK media is in full RUSSIA BAD mode, so I guess Yemen is yet another inconvenient truth.

      The USA and its British poodle are losing face in the Syrian war they started. It’s not going to plan and so they try to pin the blame on Russia (the only legal foreign presence in Syria, by the way). By the time the next president is installed, it will be all over, thankfully. A no fly zone would be a catastrophic failure – the USA wont touch it and the UK is too wee and too weak to go it alone. Hence Boris’s desperate plea for an anti-Russian demo. Something must at least be seen to be done. Pathetic, delusional nonsense.

    45. Smallaxe says:

      Takeour blueback says:
      11 October, 2016 at 6:49 pm
      “I’d also like to see a subscription option – paypal or not (or both)! Would like to make regular contributions – get it sorted Rev ?”

      I may have it wrong,but I have a small contribution taken from my bank account every month for WOS.Sorry if I have misunderstood your comment.

      Peace Always

    46. Flower of Scotland says:

      Ah,well done the Rev. They don’t like it up them!

      Dorothy Devine. I’m also sickened by the US, UK and France. Do they think that ww3 will bring in some dosh? They might think it will stop Indy Ref2. No way.

    47. Thepnr says:

      Boris asking folk to “march on the Russian Embassy”?

      FFS whats he smoking?

    48. Sinky says:

      On attempted smears just noted reference to Siobhan McFadyen’s tweet regarding Heathrow sponsoring an event at SNP conference. Apart from fact that both Heathrow and Gatwick have spent millions on advertising etc in all manner of publications and at events, would refer Rev Stu et al to Private Eye issue 1428 page 12 which details the numerous inappropriate sponsors at this Autumn’s Labour and Tory conferences.

      Also page 14 reports that Ian Taylor CEO of Vitol paid for a private jet to fly BBC director-general Tony Hall to a reception in Stornoway. A conflict of interest perhaps but yet again Ian Taylor’s largesse towards the Better Together campasign has been airbrushed out of history.

    49. Dcanmore says:

      Been to the Guido Fawkes (Paul Staines) site once, never saw anything that made me want to go back. He is a Tory libertarian and really dosn’t give a stuff about journalistic accuracy or standards, as long as notoriety brings in an income. He got well paid by The Sun for three years but even they eventually dropped him. Like all the other right-wing media outlets including Mail/Express/Telegraph/CapX so on, they are pretty much for the loon/yoon lurker these days.

    50. Dan Huil says:

      Britnats desperate for a fight with Russia; anything that draws attention away from their bullshit brexit.

    51. galamcennalath says:

      At this stage in the chaos, what May needs is someone to invade the Falklands. That worked ‘wonders’ for the last one.

      Any distraction will do.

    52. Dr Jim says:

      Was Gordon Brown not paying Mrs Brown around £3000 a week to administrate a charity from her kitchen

      Only saying coz I’m in a lot, so if anybody wants somthing administrated you know, I’ve got no life, I’d be handy for like the post and that, bit of envelope lickin, tea……eh

    53. HandandShrimp says:

      Think it is a site I have read only a couple of times. More of a gossip column than any sort of political analysis.

    54. heedtracker says:

      TeamGB elitism is nepotism, so why this is a big deal is just another British mystery. They all drop to their knees to kiss the rings of royals the hardest by profession.

      UKOK hackdom’s an awful and colossal grovelfest of BBC proportions. But at least they have to lie through their bad British teeth to smear SNP MP’s, long may it last:D

    55. dramfineday says:

      Nurse! Bucket of cold water for Mr Wickham’s heid…..what’s that, someone called the Rev has already done it? Good.

    56. K1 says:

      Takeour blueback says:
      11 October, 2016 at 6:49 pm
      I’d also like to see a subscription option – paypal or not (or both)! Would like to make regular contributions – get it sorted Rev

      Why don’t you just sent up a standing order and subscribe to Wings that way? Stu has a ‘donate’ link too, you can donate any time ye like. But if you contact him on the ‘contact’ link he’ll send you the bank details tae set up a standing order.

      You’re welcome 🙂

    57. Thepnr says:

      I quite like the “You Stupid Cunt” tweet at the the top of the article it is very colorful and very telling.

      War of the top two blogs in the UK. Who’s the stupid cunt?

    58. X_Sticks says:

      @Takeour blueback

      I think you just missed out on a “Wings Alert Reader” badge there #justsayin 😉

    59. Andy-B says:

      There will be a job at the Express, for that numpty Fawkes, he certainly meets the criteria.

    60. Luigi at 7.27

      Well said. The lies we are being fed about Syria will become legendary if the truth is ever allowed to surface.

      President Assad is the entirely legitimate ruler of Syria. The last election in Syria was supervised by over 300 international observers who agreed it was clean and fair and honest. Assad took 80% of the vote. I knew this to be the case before as I have middle eastern relatives but it was nice to have this confirmed. They told me that from 2009 and possibly before that the US had been funding Islamic loonies against Assad (who runs a secular state).

      We have just seen two prestigious international reports (one of them led by US legal teams) report that Syria is not facing a civil war but an invasion by the US by proxy. Syria blocks the US access to Iran among other things.

      The US/UK were only pretending to be facing up to ISIS type insurgents in Syria. Syria,or the legitimate government of Syria, invited Russia to its aid. The Russians are doing the job and running rings around the US/UK/Saudi Arabian liars.

      Aleppo was taken by the loonies. These are the guys that behead 10 year olds. The Syrian government surrounded Aleppo and initiated a siege which was a pretty moderate and reasoned response.Evidently the US/UK media and establishment expected the Syrian government to entice the loonies out with coffee and buns. The Syrian government retook Western Aleppo. The rebels were still dug in the east of the city. The Syrian government announced a full scale assault to remove the loonies from the east. Residents from the East were offered free and protected passage out and many took it. Full scale assault then ensued.

      In the interim the UK parliament had voted to bomb Syria. Our bombs presumably are nice bombs that don’t kill women and children. The level of hypocrisy we are being fed is monumental and the lies almost without precedent.

      In the meantime we have seen the Americans bomb Syrian troops “in error” for over a solid hour (to which the Syrian Government did not respond thankfully) and kill scores of them and we have seen an “aid convoy” into Aleppo shelled and two very conflicting accounts about what was actually being carried in in that convoy (though you would have been hard pressed to find anywhere in our media any mention of the claim that that convoy was also carrying in arms for the rebels).

      I know who is telling huge lies to us about Syria and I know who is telling the truth.

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      Good grief, Boris Johnson – the UK Government Foreign Minister – has virtually declared war on Russia with his encouragement for a demonstration outside the Russian Embassy. It will certainly cause a Diplomatic Incident.

      Article 22:

      “2. The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity.”

      (mission = embassy)

    62. Bob Mack says:

      The stupidity in the Commons today was unbelievable.” Enforce a no fly zone, might have to shoot down Russian planes, blah blah, blah.”

      Actually what we were witnessing was guilt turned to a demonstration of anger. The DUP in strident tones announcing their will to do the right thing and cause Armageddon in the process. I should not be surprised at their rush to conflict I suppose.

      A collective of Labour and Tories all with bloodstained hands queuing up to now “do the right thing” Pity they did not do that in the first place.

      Guido is one of them. A bum wipe with a pen.

    63. Mike says:

      Its truly disturbing to learn that an extremist right wing blog is the most popular in the UK.
      Right wing extremism used to be fringe and the badge of wackos now it appears to be mainstream and functioning as the norm.
      Has the UK truly reached this depth of depravity?

    64. Macart says:

      Boris has done whut?

      If that’s correct, the bonehead should get his jotters. Is it right enough?

    65. yesindyref2 says:

      Reported in the Herald. Shrug. His words: “I’d certainly like to see demonstrations outside the Russian embassy. Where is the Stop The War Coalition at the moment? Where are they?” he asked.”

      I think he’ll have to go, by morning at the latest, and since it was May’s judgement to appoint him to the role, she’s in danger of having to resign. The only thing that might stop that is if Putin wants her to stay in charge.

      But hey, what do I know?

    66. Sandra says:

      Somebody needs to tell Mr Fawkes that HM Queen employs her entire extended family at enormous cost to the taxpayer and with virtually no benefit to anyone.

    67. Glamaig says:


      watching BBC news channel and its not caused a ripple. So this must be the new normal, Boris is now ‘centre ground’ after all.

      Just watching yet another extended interview with Marine le Pen.

    68. HandandShrimp says:

      Apparently 125 MPs across all the parties employ family members. What is the story here again?

    69. Craig P says:

      I used to like order-order – the key to enjoying it is the knowledge that similar to Radio 4 (that I also like) it is another country’s media, no point getting cut up if Scotland is poorly represented.

      On topic – an interesting stat is not so much which MPs hire their own family – it is which MPs hire the family of *other* MPs from the same party. I know there used to be a bit of that going on, wonder if it still does. Perfectly legal though, and who else would put up with a politicians moods and work hours?

    70. Proud Cybernat says:

      Oi Gweedo – educate yoursel’ before you go up in flames, laddie:

      Well done Rev.

    71. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2 and Glamaig

      Perhaps, but I suspect he may just have done what PM May fully expected him to do eventually. What he was put in that particular post to do as it were.

      As in, make a complete public arse of himself.

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      Second thoughts – the last thing Putin would want is Boris, May and all her merry crew out of power, considering what they’re doing on their own to destroy the UK.

    73. Andrew McLean says:

      Just listened to the Syria debate, sorry the Syrian? What do we call what happens in parliament or anywhere when the male pissing competition goes so terribly wrong. Yeh shoot down a Russia plane I fuckng dare you.
      My next post will be my burning blackened fingers scratching the word “wankers” into the scorched earth that once I called home.
      Don’t worry it won’t happen because if you live in Scotland you have the USA nuclear submarine parked 20 min drive from Glasgow city centre. “Jesus I believe you feels safer already” Buba.

      Anyway pissing competitions only work when the protagonists are evenly matched, on one side we have Boris, not the Russians, a prat on a wire, and on the other one crazy mother fucker who’s at this second bombing the hell out of a city!

      The real Boris, thinks us lot are a bunch of wankers, and to be fair, looking at the west right now, he is bang on the button, if you pardon the expression.

      Boris wants Syria and he will, sorry has taken Syria. Elsewhere NATO has just parked their tanks on his, or rather what he preserves as his lawn, so saddened as I am to say this, the Syria faux war is finished, the next battle has just been joined.

      How bloody the Syria war will end depends on Boris showing us just how crazy he is. Or wants us to believe he is.

    74. DerekM says:

      Seems like a reasonable question to me Rev the big mistake you made was expecting an answer from a Tory shill.

      Still seems like you rattled their cage they are not used to being pulled up for their content.

      As for paying members of your family to work nothing wrong with that perfectly acceptable under westminster rules if Staines and his wee gimp have a problem with that then maybe they should ask why their precious UK parliament allow it.

    75. Petra says:

      ‘Wings the UK’s second most read politics blog’. Amazing Stuart especially when you take into account the population of rUK. And then there’s a positive mention of Wings in the survey in the last article. Well done. Well done too for continuing to ‘out’ the manipulative liars. Looks as though Sweary Fawkes is none too happy with you damaging his ‘credibility’.


      @ People Carrier 6:18pm ….. I don’t like it either PC. It smacks of …. no it’s out and out nepotism and sets a very poor example for other employers. Right now my husband’s workplace is full of plonkers who got the job because they know so and so. Most of the plonkers by the way think that they can do what they like (skive mostly) and say what they like (nasty bully boys (and girls) mostly) because they have the backing of their boss (pal). The SNP should have distanced themselves from this practice and set a ruling against it. I’m also hoping that Nicola and Angus have had a wee word in their ears in relation to how much and what they claim for in expenses.


      Boris Johnston calling for an anti-Russian mass protest at Westminster! You couldn’t bl**dy-well make it up and I hope it backfires on him. Good on the Russian Ambassador for outlining (tweeting) what Russia has been doing in Syria and what the UK’s not done.

      What a bunch of utterly despicable, totally unprofessional, cruel, callous hypocrites. The UK was a main player in creating the situation in Syria and then pulled up the Brexit drawbridge, in part, because they didn’t want to help the refugees; leaving the rest of Europe to deal with the horrendous problem.

      Boris Johnston flatly refuses to ban the sale of UK arms to the Saudis who in turn are blowing kids to smithereens and then they wonder, set up committees that cost us millions to establish, why people are joining Daesh. We all know what else the Westminster Government has been getting up to and it’s high time there were mass protests about ALL of that. Better still call a National strike.

      Blair and Iraq. Cameron and Libya. All been swept under the carpet now. I can’t wait to get out of this Union and if anyone votes No next time round their off their feckin heads.

    76. cearc says:

      Russian Embassy somewhat bemused,

      ‘Very unusual call from the Foreign Secretary to hold demonstrations in front of the Russian embassy. New form of British diplomacy?’

      Listening to bits of it on R4, I thought, ahh they have a plan. Let’s pick a war with Russia, that’ll take their minds of the Brexit mess.

    77. cearc says:

      Courtesy of Faisal Islam

      58 page sector by sector government analysis of financial impact of Brexit from farming to pharma.

      In Ireland.

    78. Tinto Chiel says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @8.20: an excellent comment.

      Ironical that two secular rulers, Saddam and Assad were/are being destabilised by USA and UK/France which have used religious extremists to further their aims. Assad must be removed simply because he is supported by Russia.

      I doubt the true picture will ever be known if MSM are to be relied upon.

      I had to laugh today when I heard Hollande threatening Putin. He likes to grandstand in foreign affairs to distract from his woeful attacks on French workers. After Libya and Syria he has a lot of blood on his hands too.

      When will some UK journalist report fairly on events in Syria and Yemen?

    79. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      ” what they’re doing on their own to destroy the UK.”

      WM seems Hell bent on ending the UK and lots of countries all over the world will enjoy seeing the disintegration of the UK, including some in the EU.

      The combined actions of WM themselves, we in Scotland, and perhaps others, will surely remove the UK from the map.

      Good riddance, say many millions!

    80. Sinky says:

      Unlike Gordon Strachan, Derek Bateman is bang on the money here

    81. Wee Alex says:

      Ah well, Scotland shambles in Slovakia. 0-3.

      As for Guido Fawkes, I visit the site regularly just to witness the extreme and paranoid views of these right wing extremists.

      It is an eye opener and exposes UKIP and Tory supporters as the worst type of individuals on the face of the planet. The trouble is they believe their views are moderate!

    82. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Tinto chiel, aye Sarkozy was meddling in Libya too.

      “The Dreadful Chronology of Gaddafi’s Murder”

      Worth a look, mentions how advanced Libya was, and the plans for a United states of Africa, new currency “Gold Dinar” to rival the dollar as the oil currency. Well, we know how that ended.

    83. John H. says:

      Are our MP’s gradually being sucked into the Westminster system? If any of them employ family members aren’t they setting themselves up as targets? I would prefer them to avoid this kind of situation by not employing relatives at all if possible. Employing two, although at different times is asking for trouble.

    84. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Alan Mackintosh 9.51: yes, I came upon that article very recently. I believe it was Gaddafi’s attempt to set up the Gold Dinar which did for him.

      And now Libya and Syria are in chaos and ruins because of illegal allied action in these countries. Russia is in Syria legally because its aid has been sought by Assad.

      And let’s not mention Yemenis being killed by British weapons launched by the Saudis.

    85. Andrew McLean says:

      John H,
      Not one person in the SNP though we would wipe out all MP’s in Scotland, even with every possible thow of the dice?
      Now we have one destroyed liberal, one embarrassing excuse of a labour guy and god knows what idiot of a Tory imperial wizard.

      Again as described by others at branch level, we have empire building, as Churchill once said, power corrupts.
      The argument we are only half as bad as our opponent is pathetic.

    86. jake says:

      The way it works, since the rules were changed to restrict the number of family members an MP could employ, is that you find a friend in one the Commons bars and employ his son/daughter…he/she reciprocates by giving your dear dear little sprog a job.

    87. Maria F says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      11 October, 2016 at 6:27 pm

      “I have just watched Boris Johnson call for folk to march on the Russian Embassy…I am utterly sickened by the hypocrisy shown by the US and UK governments”

      Absolutely. But considering that they have been caught without a plan for Brexit, the pound is diving, there are threats of manufacturers moving elsewhere due to brexit, the irresponsible xenophobic remarks during the Tory conference, the refusal of Scotland to ‘toe the line’ and the investigations of Tory electoral funding fraud, my gut feeling is that it is all for the benefit of deflection. They are desperately trying to move the public’s attention away from themselves. My fear is that they are trying to slip a nasty one under the table when people is not watching. We cannot take the eye of the ball.

    88. Glamaig says:

      @Andrew McLean, John H

      I agree, its not a family firm, so its not appropriate to employ family members especially as its public money. Happy to say neither my MP or MSP do this.

      I understand they want people they trust, but the position should at least be advertised within the SNP. We should be doing politics differently.

    89. John H. says:

      Andrew McLean
      I’m sure that the Labour Party started off with good intentions and high ideals, but Westminster soon took care of that. A good salary, generous expenses and pension. It didn’t take long for them to become part of the system they went down to change or destroy. Is this what we are now seeing among our MP’s? I think some of them may need reminding of why they are there.

    90. G H Graham says:

      Stu, I think the story’s Fawked up.

    91. Take heart, my friends.
      I like many have never visited this site, and up until now, had no intention to do so.
      Stu, keep it real.
      My dip into Fawkes’ sewage which you replicate here, is more than enough for a life time.
      You’ve thrown more out of the road to get to a fight, my boy.
      Well done. Was that another squirrel?
      The Express Dead Tree Scroll is a cartoon of its former self now.
      There are no journalists any more.
      With one or two exceptions, and they know who they are, today’s hacks are a ridiculous bunch of toilet wall scribblers.
      Bums, tits, murders, ‘Celebrities’, and SNP BAD. A job for life, unless..
      Strachan should quit BTW; Just saying, like.

    92. Bill Hume says:

      Girls, boys…please. I’ve heard of Guido Fawkes….but let us not be unkind. I have in my heart a love for these uninformed and out of touch with the real world people.

      Let us not become bitter…. there but for the love of Wings, go we all.

    93. heedtracker says:

      He’s a bit touchy for a satirist but he’s says he’s not. You’d think he’d have a thicker hide,

      Guido Fawkes ?@GuidoFawkes 2h2 hours ago
      Did pretty straight forward story about an SNP MP employing both her children. Cybernats say it is lies because it wasn’t simultaneous. Mad.

      BBC Scotland celebrationerising Scottish democracy. That crew are above and beyond any back chat.

    94. Wee Alex at 9.48

      That result is hard to swallow. Scotland was probably marginally the better side over the course of the match and certainly had more of the ball. But Slovakia had more shots on goal.

      Goals of course is the object of the whole exercise and ever since we adopted the fannying about with the ball in the middle of the park which is the continental way we have been on the back foot. I’d like to see us with a defence that cleared its lines by getting the ball up the park and into the opposition penalty box as often as possible. For that to be productive you need at least two strikers in the opposition penalty box of course. When we play that way our defence moves forward and forces the opposition back as well to stay onside. At the moment any time our midfield or defence loses the ball it is likely to be deep in our half. As happened tonight.

      To put it simply there is no point in “dominating” a game (by majority possession) if that means you are not producing goal chances. Martin O’Neil at Celtic and Eire understood that perfectly. As did Jock Stein. Both regularly comfortably won matches without majority possession.

      Big Jock knew it was more useful to put the ball out up near the opposition by line than to fanny about in your own midfield.

    95. Jock McDonnell says:

      All 3 goals & umpteen crosses coming from the right back position. You’d think somebody would have identified that threat, if its obvious even to me.

    96. Big Jock says:

      We could still qualify, but not with him in charge. He has destroyed the confidence. He has tunnel vision for English Championship players. Only brings on Griffiths after we have lost games. I think we should be looking at Celtic, Aberdeen and Hearts for our players. These daddies who have never been in Scotland in their life’s just have no idea what playing for Scotland means.

    97. robertknight says:

      Someone should tell Strachan that no matter how hard you try, you can’t polish a turd. Thankless task given the dearth of talent. More to follow with the mighty Engerlund. Can’t wait..

    98. Bill Hume says:

      Football, football, football…..I fu%$ing hate football…….Still, each to their own.

    99. Morgatron says:

      Guido Fud

    100. Clootie says:

      A visit to Guido Fawkes is akin to attending a UKIP Party Conference fringe meeting of the KKK.
      That this is the most popular political site tells you all you need to know about the direction of travel post “their” Brexit victory.

      ….don’t visit it…you will need a shower…don’t do it!!!

    101. cirsium says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill, 8.20
      They told me that from 2009 and possibly before that the US had been funding Islamic loonies against Assad (who runs a secular state).

      Dave – it wasn’t just the US. According to the ex French Foreign Minister, the UK started anti-Assad activities in 2009 –

    102. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Clootie –

      I used to keep up with Fawkes, way way back.

      Now it feels (i.e. visually) like Private Eye on a bad acid trip, and btl is more like below-the-sewer.

      If the contributors are the better-educated BTUKOKers, then heaven only knows what real ‘grassroots’ sentiment in Englandshire is like right now.

      The nights are fair drawing-in right enough…

    103. Dr Jim says:

      We need the Russians to bomb us a bit so’s we get that good old British Dunkirk spirit going again and bring us all together to realise that’s what’s best for us

      So come on Boris get a war going to show us how well off we are and we might get lucky and rid ourselves of those pesky Jocks into the bargain

      National service, that’s the thing and stop damn well educating the plebs it leads to no good and no good can come of it

      Independence, pah! damn nuisances

    104. Still Positive. says:

      Many of you upthread have wondered if SNP MPs are ‘getting their feet under the table’ so to speak. I can state that when my MP was at the hustings in January 2015 he declared that he ‘wanted to be there as little as possible’. In August he had a meeting with SNP supporters to tell us the up-to-date position and he said there would be a referendum within 18 months.

      At that meeting I asked him directly if he thought he would be contesting the 2020 election. His reply was, “Only if we lose the next indyref.”

      Since I have known him since 1992 when he was the youngest councillor in Scotland I trust him.

      As far as I know both my MP and MSP do not employ family members but those from the wider family of the SNP.

      In fact, one of our younger members of the branch was a research assistant to Kirsten Oswald for 6 months and then moved to be RA for Brendan O’Hara.

    105. dakk says:

      Go get ’em Stuarty.

      Soon to be main journo on the UKs first most read politics blog,if truth and enlightenment are what the people seek.

    106. the SNP MP`s MSP`s need to not only be clean but they must be seen to be clean,

      employing your family may be a common practice in politics and Kieran and Shannon may be fantastic personal assistants,

      but for those outside the political bubble it does look like cronyism/nepotism and does not sit well with the ideals of true democracy,

      don`t give trash like guido an easy target for it to manipulate into an SNPbad story.

    107. Andrew McLean says:

      Did someone just say the “rules” I thought we weren’t playing Westminster games?
      So yes guido is a prik, SNP bad style, but in the name of the we man, that is what you call an own goal.

    108. Valerie says:


      Rev Stu + candy + baby = painful removal.

      These self important knob jockeys really don’t like being questioned, and asked for such nonsense as evidence.

      Speaking of knob jockeys, I was watching the debate, when that buffoon called for demos outside the Russian Embassy. I was waiting on someone shouting twat, or somesuch

      What have we done to deserve these braindead running the country? Oh aye, we voted to Remain.

      Perhaps the reason no one was outside the Embassy, is because they realise Boris is such a fecking liar of national proportions. He lied all through the referendum, and disgusting, craven behaviour after the vote.

      HOW has this man got the balls to act like he knows what a politician should be doing? The nerve to say where is Stop the War?????

      I so wish the truth of Syria would come to the public. The UK govt are completely disgusting, in their naked wish for war, so obviously to deflect from what is happening right now.

      Another bloody joke being discussed again – the Garden Bridge. Khan said he was going to shelve it, some kind of funny handshakes going on, because no one can get to the truth of this, and why it’s being pushed on again.

    109. mike cassidy says:

      Just learned my link at 6.13 didn’t work.

      Ta thepnr 6.44

      Probably too late now for this thread, but

      here it is again for those interested in Wickham’s scotophobia.

    110. Iain More says:

      OT Again

      The second I seen the Scotland team I switched off. It didn’t take a Delphic talent to know exactly what was going to happen. It wasn’t the first time that Strachan has made mistakes in selections and formations and tactics. It has become a regular habit. I wasn’t going to bother watching a repeat of what I witnessed on Saturday night.

      On Topic I haven’t bothered with that sight from a rabid right wing lunatic.

    111. mike cassidy says:

      my 12.17

      That link works now –

      and having caught up with the thread, it is certainly relevant to the “feet under the table” debate.

    112. Kryczek says:

      It’s for stuff like this is why you’re up there. Keep up the good work.

    113. dakk says:

      Just watched Sky News reporting on Princess Casserine visit to Netherlands and to me looks like the Brits are stepping up their divide and rule of EU campaign.

      With the Brits having controlled 2/3s of the planet,the EU with their disparate tongues and cultures seems like easy meat.

      Maybe they really are the super race.The really awfully civilized super race.

    114. Craig Murray says:

      Paul Staines aka Guido Fawkes had an interesting dalliance with the BNP which he has since been keen to portray as an agent provocateur action against them. Evidence for that seems scanty.

      My own blog reached number 2 in the UK blog rankings too. It has since been banned from the rankings, and numerous attempts to ask why have gone unanswered.

    115. Andrew McLean says:

      If it’s OK if you are just obeying the rules then Bastard Green is perfectly right to rip off the pension and buy a big yacht. It’s the rules guys! Just following orders!
      Listen there are snakes in our garden, just waiting to start slipping off their skin. Some arse like Fawkes isn’t even a thousand part of the shitt storm that will be unleashed in Indy ref 2,
      The start of one story was

      This ending was inevitable

      What next?

    116. Breeks says:

      Can we please get on with Independence?

      As if Boris Johnston hasn’t done enough already, he is now picking a fight with Russia.

      Westminster is a dangerous madhouse, threatening to become a failed state, already with condemnation from the UN on its record of human rights, a right wing xenophobic party in power armed with nuclear weapons and trying to antagonise both Europe and Russia with weapons grade arrogance and hypocrisy.

      I don’t know whether this character Boris Johnson is the literal incarnation of Stephen Kings Killer Clown or the Joker from the Batman franchise, but he’s a dangerous phsyco in a clown suit and all that is missing is the makeup.

      Please. Enough of this. End the Union before these nutters drag us down with them. We won’t just get our UDI recognised, (correction, make that our multilateral recognition of Scottish sovereignty), I rather suspect the rest of the civilised World will cheer it’s delivery and ask us what took us so long.

      If it comes to civil disorder with disgruntled unionists, even a period of protracted instability, I would rather that than nuclear holocaust with the Russians spawned by this cretin Boris Arsehole Johnson.

    117. JLT says:

      Even though the practice of ‘hiring’ one’s own family isn’t illegal, it can be seen as nepotistic, contentious and to be honest, rather damaging all around.

      At one point, I worked for a major company where nepotism was so rife, and when I mean rife, I’m talking literally incestual on so many levels. The practice of it was so bad, that it created serious bad blood amongst normal members of staff who had no family ties anywhere within the company.

      You see, over the years, we hired a lot of IT contractors who not only knew what they were doing, but were very good at their job. We then watched sadly as their contracts came to an end …and then to watch on in bemusement as they were replaced by our boss’s boss son, or the nephew of some director. Though they were pleasant folk to speak too, we soon found out to our cost that they had no IT knowledge (or it was very limited), no IT ideology in problem solving, or any hardware or software knowledge (which takes years to build up). This meant that we had to spend time training someone in the art of IT skills (meaning we were taken away from our own work while educating them), and though they gained some knowledge, it was on a rather poor level. And you can’t train someone up in IT in a week or a month; it takes years to gain that overall knowledge.

      So engineering time across the section was lost due to training someone who had never gone to college or Uni to study IT concepts; the stats for the company began to drop because this new person was limited in what they could do; our own boss was not only under pressure to make sure that his own boss’ son was doing well, but had to make sure that the company hit each of its marks every month, which meant that he had to allocate more work onto the normal engineering staff, which we then had to do in a much shorter timeframe (because time was being lost in training the new start).

      The one aspect that left the rest of the section highly bemused was when this new person was given one of a dozen ‘engineer of the year’ awards for their overall performance in settling in within the company; a long weekend break in a European capital city. And this wasn’t just this new person …it turns out that half of the others who were praised were the wives / sons / daughters of other bosses in the company throughout the UK, who were also being given pat on the head. And worse still …a good portion would also go on to win it again the following year. It was the worst form of praise and reward I have ever seen, and the anger, resentment and disgust was something to hear and see amongst the rest of the staff.

      Nepotism though not illegal, is frowned upon, and for good reason. It is counter-productive, seen to be seen as an act of favouritism, can be economically damaging, and can see people with real good skills walking out of the door to another job in disgust.

      My view on this …unless the family member being hired by the politician is well-trained and knows exactly what they are doing, then I would not be endorsing this practice. To the vast majority of people, a family member being hired is not only seen as nepotistic act, but can also be seen as a two finger gesture to everyone else around them.

    118. Luigi says:

      As folk say, rules is rules, and Guido certainly spun it to make it look like both offspring were hired at the same time. Nothing said as such, but the implication was clear.

      That said, it was certainly an open goal. It reeks of opportunism, feeding at the trough, something we have been accusing Labour of for years. To say that the SNP does it less than the other parties is no defence. Nothing wrong was done and rules is rules. However, because of a hostile media, the SNP has to be squeaky clean.

      Perhaps a party rule preventing MPs hiring relatives should have been imposed. If the SNP did this, it would make the other parties look bad because the hiring of relatives does not go down well with the public (and Guido well knows this, hence the smear effort).

      Come on SNP, rise above it and announce that your politicians will not be hiring relatives (know matter how inconvenient that is). 🙂

    119. Ken500 says:

      The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies. Westminster is not a legitimate Gov. The Tories are ruining the world economy. Thatcher ruined the world economy deregulated banking, privatised utilities and wasted all the Oil revenues. 20 years later the Tories and their associates are at it again. The Westminster Unionists caused the migration crisis in Europe. Britain, France and the US. They now want to walk away without resolving the crisis or giving any help. The want to spend aid revenues on a yacht. They are out of touch parasites. Other European countries are having to deal with the devastation and death. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Britain is the most unequal, unfair place in the world.

      Remember, remember the 5th of November. Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Westminster. The Tory/Unionists are doing a good impression. Blow out. The dope on a rope. It can only get worse. Until Scotland votes for self governance/Independence. Vote SNP/SNP in May 2017.

    120. Macart says:

      Nave you seen this Nana?

      It appears the poop is now well and truly hitting the fan.

    121. galamcennalath says:

      ” Prime Minister Theresa May has accepted that Parliament should be allowed to vote on her plan for taking Britain out of the European Union”


    122. Robert Louis says:

      There was a time, long ago, when the right wing agitator running the Guido Fawkes blog order-order would occasionally produce something of interest. Sadly, it is now just an extreme right wing hate fest of anything pro EU or anti Tory.

      The fact that now, when challenged to address simple questions on one of its stories, it behaves in a way which it previously would have been critical of, tells us everything we need to know of the decline of order-order.

      Having said that, I agree with the many others above, that MP’s employing their relatives is something I utterly despise. It is bad, it sends out the wrong message, and it is something which the general public absolutely DO NOT LIKE.

      My message to such SNP MP’s is simple, it is a slippery slope when you start compromising your values. That is what Labour MP’s from Scotland did – and they all lost their seats. ‘oh, everybody does it’, and ‘well it makes sense really’, and similar rubbish just doesn’t cut it.

      It needs to stop SNP, or you will end up being NO BETTER than the Labour MP’s you replaced.

    123. heedtracker says:

      Wow Nana!

      The guy hadn’t the faintest idea why he voted Leave, X 17 million.

    124. Nana says:


      Yes I did, have tried posting some other links one from Alex Salmond and for some reason can not post?

      I got a strange pop up type thingy come on my screen. Trying direct links


    125. Robert Louis says:

      I see the media are today telling us that The witch of Westminster Theresa May, is backing down and will alow scrutiny of brexit plans. Utter nonsense. The PM, is doing nothing of the kind.

      Read what she has said in the amendment, it is so full of ifs and buts as to be meaningless. Yet here we see once more, the media all across the UK following the spin, with ZERO scrutiny.

      Meanwhile the UK economy continues to go down the toilet with each and every passing day, but hey, who cares, we’re getting BREXIT yay!

      It is now no longer optional whether Scotland has a new indyref or not, because it will be the very last chance to save Scotland from the madness that has taken over England. We now have a Tory Government in London, doggedly following political dogma, in the full clear knowledge it will literally trash the UK economy. They should be put in jail.

    126. heedtracker says:

      Graun’s tory ligger at Newsnight spindocs like a champ.

      UK ‘may still have to pay into EU even after Brexit’

    127. Macart says:


      Direct link working and posting just fine.

      Heh. Alex Salmond pulling no punches. 🙂

    128. Tinto Chiel says:

      That last Pilger article is an absolute stinger, Nana, quite an eye-opener. It redeems the term “journalist”.

      Thanks for posting it.

      If Maggie DisMay has to run her Brexit terms past WM and she loses the vote, what happens then? Resignation, more dragging out of negotiations with an increasingly fractious EU?

      Of course, Labour might just abstain.

    129. Robert Louis says:

      Nana and Macart above,

      Thanks for the links. Very interesting, the speech from Alex Salmond yesterday in the council of Europe. When talking of those in London who now say, ‘oh, look brexit hasn’t been so bad’, when brexit hasn’t even happened yet, he said the following,

      “It’s a bit like jumping off the Eiffel Tower and half-way down thinking things are not going to be too bad.”

      That, in a nutshell, is the sheer lunacy going on in the London Government and throughout the UK media.

      Link to Salmond’s speech;

    130. Nana says:


      That guy being interviewed is just one of the many who believed every lie by politicians and media.

      Some people will swallow any crap, don’t take time to source the truth and look at the mess they’ve created.

      Who will he blame when his business goes under, the immigrants, the scots or will he finally realise the rot is Westminster.

    131. Nana says:

      Here’s the other article I was having trouble posting, two more will no longer load for me.

      Re Syria and the west’s takeover

    132. Hamish100 says:

      o/t search powers for teachers.

      Will the tories be pushing for increased “big brother”Vetting by teachers on pupil’s going to school or will they hide as it goes again their previous complaints of state intervention? Yet they are the party of lawr and orderr!! More searches required but err no we are against stop and search of young people!! Freedom to carry knifes or not?

      Simple fact is as soon as teaching or other staff are aware of such issues they inform the Head Teacher or deputy who then calls the Police- and are duty bound to do so.

      Incidentally noticed the number of homicides in Scotland have reduced again.

      It must be the snp’s fault and nasty Police Scotland. baaad!

    133. Macart says:


      A hater’s gotta hate.

      Its always been someone elses fault donchaknow? The politician and the media count on this response, the low information voter, the soundbite and dog whistle readership/viewer.

      You take away a populations ability to reason by playing to and manipulating their baser emotions. For the pro political/media types its easy to foster fear, anger, hatred and then direct same at your opposition du jour. They’ve been doing it for a very, very long time.

      Once such a narrative gains traction or momentum however? Well its a lot harder to stop. It needs to run a natural course and burn itself out. Generally with a great amount of pain, suffering and collateral damage and resulting in a great deal of guilt and recrimination.

      We can still avoid this Nana. Never doubt it. 🙂

    134. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      The Pilger article has been in my inbox for a few days. Bookmark his site, it’s an eye opener. Check out Gladio on google for lots of information and John Pilger The war on democracy and A world war has begun Break the silence.

    135. One_Scot says:

      I have only visited the “Guido Fawkes” website once some time ago to post a comment when he ran with a Yoon SNP Bad story, which at the time had wall to wall media coverage.

      The story itself was factually incorrect, (I know, shockarooney), which was why I felt the need to comment. Unfortunately I cannot recall the exact story, which is probably not surprising, given the thousands of SNP bad stories that the Yoon media run.

      But going on past history, it does look like false sensationalism seems to be this guy’s modus operandi.

      The Uk’s number one and number two political websites, hmm, you don’t really have to be a political expert to know who the real No. 2 is.

    136. heedtracker says:

      Who will he blame when his business goes under, the immigrants, the scots or will he finally realise the rot is Westminster.

      People like him are pretty busy running their lives but on top of that we all have to try to understand a colossal thing like the EU. And all we have ever really heard from the tory BBC led media is that the EU is shite. We have had the same tory media rage at Scotland that Scotland is also shite.

      So that electrician is not alone in accepting what the one of the west’s greatest tory lie machines tell us everyday of our lives. Its no different from socialist workers Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo’s invasion of Iraq, with hard core conservative Republican America.

      Three tories chat and its Ken who actually explains how it works.

    137. Naina Tal says:

      Good friend and Yes voter telling me this morning “Sturgeon’s turned intae a wee Hitler. Tommy Sheppard and Kenny McCaskill’s saying it and trying to get rid of her. It’s in the papers.”
      Won’t be persuaded otherwise “Must be true It’s in the papers.”
      Who’s printing this shit?

    138. call me dave says:

      Senior councillor Jackie Burns charged with an offence. Suspended from labour party.

      He’s (was) Deputy Leader South Ayrshire!
      Herald sparse on details.


      Another set of excellent links.

    139. call me dave says:


      Lanarkshire not Ayrshire… my compass well of the mark 🙁

    140. Glamaig says:


      another body here grateful for the links! this and Wings replaces what many years ago used to be the thump of the newspaper hitting the doormat.

      This one

      holy shit!! she seems to be saying spring 2017 is the best time for Indyref2, in order to stay in the EU.

    141. Breeks says:

      Theresa May is just showing herself up as a political lightweight without a moral compass.

      Introduce a policy, see how the normal and reasonable people squeal, then withdraw the policy and theatrically play to the mob. She is out of her depth and it’s beginning to show. She lacks the magic touch.

      Unlike Thatcher, the lady is for turning. Then again, in all fairness, Thatcher didn’t have to placate an angry mob of xenophobic knuckle draggers complete with pitchforks, burning torches and an extra toe on either foot.

      As UK Prime Minister, I don’t think she has what it takes to fix this. Three months have passed since the Brexit result, and the UK still remains frozen like a rabbit in the headlights.

      Even her Brexiteers in cabinet are looking like the foolhardy appointments, something which every sane person predicted at the time.

    142. schrodingers cat says:

      ive never even heard of this “Guido Fawkes” website

      I wonder how many scots have not heard of wings?

      maybe wings should run a publicity campaign, how much do adverts on stv cost?

      wings… read the news you are not getting…

    143. Robert Kerr says:

      Yes CmD

      Burns is deputy labour group leader in South Lanarkshire. Or was . Now suspended.

      The herald, don’t waste time looking, is very coy. Won’t even state what he is charged with!


      Are there no journalists left or is it editorial censorship to protect SLAB?

    144. Nana says:

      Short video Alex Salmond speaking at the council of Europe

    145. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      12 October, 2016 at 10:23 am
      ive never even heard of this “Guido Fawkes” website

      He’s done some er research into Gordo and the gang. He’s a reporting satirist maybe.

      Listed and some highlights.

    146. Bob Mack says:

      Re Jackie Burns Deputy Labour leader S Lanarkshire. Is he not the guy being investigated for awarding the 200,000 taxi contract to his nephew ?
      I remember he was fined last year for urinating in the street in Hamilton. Civic responsibility eh ?

    147. Liz Rannoch says:

      The Rev is up against Guido for the Vuelio Blog Awards:

      wonder if they know about this?

    148. schrodingers cat says:

      the wbb was the best piece of literature we had during indyref1

      indyref2 is coming, everyone now agrees, only disagreement is when

      the rev stated on twitter after the euref result that he had no choice but to re-write it

      the only criticism i have ever heard about the wbb was that we could have had it sooner than we did in indyref1.

      If this is the case, even tho the rev has not finished writting the wbb2 i dont see why we need to wait to start crowd funding for it?

      that way, once it is written, we can publish it immediately and then hit the ground running

      some of us have been trying to organise the merchandise for indyref2 and I think we are just about there, barring a few items.
      shameless plug for rogue coder 🙂–4#/

      but once this stage of organisation is over, the next item on the agenda is literature.
      we are desperately short of literature, the last few of our wee black books are almost gone.

      we produced 250k wbbs last time, cost if i remember about £100k
      if we are to make the wbb2 at the focus of the literature for indyref2….. we will need a lot more than 250k copies of it

    149. Nana says:


      The article by Kirsty Hughes is really good. Could we really be ready for 2017 I guess when under pressure we would have to get on with it.

      @Naina Tal

      I wonder if your friend read this

    150. ScottishPsyche says:

      Guido never get seriously challenged.

      They are the blogging equivalent of the braying mob at PM’s questions. They serve to spread gossip and there is a pervasive nastiness that cows and intimidates most of the MSM press and MPs.

      The BTL comments have a whiff of Kippers and Express readers.

    151. It would appear different rules apply to unionist politicians than to those of SNP politicians.

    152. Joannie says:

      The guy running that blog’s Irish? That’s embarrassing. He’s not representative of Irish people, although between him and that arse Bob Geldof I could understand how you might get a bad impression.

    153. manandboy says:

      There are too many different opinions about IndyRef2 swirling about. Seems as if some are not getting their copy of the SNP hymn sheet.

      Doubtless the Conference will bring some clarity, but thereafter, it does appear that the SNP needs a policy communication director so that everyone knows what’s going on.

      Unless of course, there is in fact no agreement within the SNP leadership and senior party members.

    154. Chic McGregor says:

      I think we will need a new Wee B (Brown?) Book for indyref2, unfortunately one which cannot be readied at present, since the full horrors of Brexit remain unclear.

      It should, IMO, go heavily on the resources to population side of things. All the staple items which go towards national viability. Agricultural produce, fisheries produce, timber, energy, quarrying, whisky and other spirits. It should also emphasise the diversity and success of Scottish industry from heavy engineering, oil expertise, bio-sciences, software both entertainment and analytical, electronics, university spin outs and many other kinds of manufacturing.

      On education, Scotland typically has 5 universities in the top 200 in the World on most lists produced. At one per every million, that is the highest pro rata share in the World. About 1 in every 50 papers produced in the entire World, cites the work of a paper produced by a Scottish university when Scotland has well less than a thousandth of the World population.

      The internal accounting fiddles of the UK should be spelled out.
      ‘National’ infrastructure spend and its concentration in the SE (e.g. London has been averaging over £5000 per person per year, NE England about £200 per person).

      Quantitative easing at the rate of about £100 billion a year since 2008 goes directly to the unregulated financial sector. It is known that 40% of it ends up in the hands of the top 5% earners, which basically amounts to yet another SE subsidy. That doesn’t mean the other 60% is shared out among the remaining 95% of the population or that it even remains in the UK at all. And because QE is on the BoE balance sheet, it is not counted as Government debt. Many economists describe it as monetization of Government debt, which is illegal if done directly, but which in the UK’s case is laundered by the off book, BoE. So what is the real UK Government debt as a percentage of GDP? Be nice if Scotland could pull the same trick.

      ‘Ex Regio’ classified production of North Sea oil, tens of billions a year exported and not included in Scotland’s exports.

      Exports of Scottish goods through English ports counted as English exports rather than Scottish.

      The regional calculations of Value Added, in particular, what counts as a regional ‘subsidy’ on the debit side.

      Renewables subsidy basically stopped in Scotland (on shore wind) but allowed to continue at more than double the rate for England (off shore).

      Punitive grid connection charges for Scottish electricity producers when Southern English ones are paid a positive sum for connecting.

      Ignore the smoke and mirrors, follow the money and the base production figures where possible.

    155. scav says:


      Hey really don’t worry about split infinitives.

      1) they are grammatically correct in English, so do it if the sentence sounds more natural that way.
      2) putting an adverb between auxiliary ‘have’ and main verb isn’t a split infinitive, and is also correct in English.

    156. I phoned in to L.B.C. Lastnight they were talking about a new royal yacht I said would the money not be better spent doing away with the need for food banks etc., again I never got on air ,, this U.K. Is living in dreamland it is in debt up to its ears but still maintains to be the third Ritchess economy in the world god help us ., come on Nicola call Ref., 2 now please

    157. Macart says:

      Yeah, had a keek in on PMQs and the UK is about to become a truly scary place. Angus R. and for once, Mr Corbyn, gave the PM a bad day at work. How and ever setting aside the shear bloody mindedness of refusing to communicate detail on brexit deals, the lack of detail forthcoming on any brexit impact or measures being taken to cushion same would make you weep.

      I think its safe to say that they basically have NO idea.

      You get the impression that the brighter among them are fully aware that it’ll be bad and there isn’t a hope in hell of anyone on those government benches either admitting to that or that they have absolutely no idea of how to weather the approaching shitstorm. They have their fallguys already set up and they’re busy piling up political sandbags by this point. ‘EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF’ kinda thing.

      Westminster in action… a thing of beauty and wonder. 🙁

    158. call me dave says:


      But Brexit is a mere bagatelle while Independence for Scots is far too risky!

      An accidental PM left to carry out the the unintended consequences of a Tory ploy to shut down UKIP which boomeranged.

      Your right they have NO idea how to get out of this mess.


    159. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Macart {Westminster in action… a thing of beauty and wonder. }. I take it you’ve seen the Petrified Forrest so nothing scare’s you lol

    160. Bruce Hosie says:

      While the practice of employing family may be widespread and allowed, it shouldn’t be. There should be a rule ensuring no politician can do it. This would just avoid the whole issue of ripping off the tax payer, while it isn’t it is , in my opinion , it gives out the wrong message.

    161. Bob Mack says:

      @Bruce Hosie,

      It has been done for my 60 odd years by every party in Westminster.
      Who should they employ who does not “rip off the tax payer ” ? You obviously have no idea of the volume of an MP’S work. It is considerable.

    162. gordoz says:

      O/T BBC cover up ?

      What’s the smokescreen n vagueness bout Labour South Lan depute police charges then ??

      The Sep 18th date is very very fishy.

      Why the protection, don’t remember them being this coy about SNP issues.

    163. Macart says:



      Only with animal noises. 🙂

    164. heedtracker says:

      BBC Politics in action. Is she over weight and where would the tory BBC have got their “kebab-loving Sharon” from?

      BBC Politics
      55 mins ·
      Jeremy Corbyn has appointed the kebab-loving Sharon Hodgson MP as shadow minister for public health DP aims to get you hungry as we’re serving some up.

      Tory BBC gimps like the Ligger really shouldn’t be throwing stones.

    165. heedtracker says:

      Its just that BBC never called Blair MacDougal, architect of Project Fear 1, 2014, a kebab-lover. And big Blair isn’t exactly what you’d call anorexic. Also Bliar’s a Lab dude, or red tory, depending on who cheque’s he’s banking, BetterTogether wise.

    166. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Macart
      Led by

    167. Macart says:


      Nailed it! 😀

    168. heedtracker says:

      Macart says:
      12 October, 2016 at 1:10 pm
      Yeah, had a keek in on PMQs and the UK is about to become a truly scary place.

      Caught Micheal Fabricate and his new winter wig in action. Maybe its his autumn one but even so, its a very odd sight watching a toryboy like that in his new wig. If he ever comes to Scotland, Golden Eagle’s will be circling over head.

    169. Glamaig says:

      Chic McGregor says:
      12 October, 2016 at 12:25 pm
      I think we will need a new Wee B (Brown?) Book for indyref2,

      One of our biggest enemies is the too wee, too poor bullshit.

      And since this is the second most read political blog in the UK I’ll just leave this here 🙂

      32% of the land area.
      61% of the sea area.
      90% of the fresh water.
      65% of the natural gas production
      96.5% of the crude oil production.
      47% of the open cast coal production
      81% of the untapped coal reserves
      62% of the timber production
      46% of the total forest area
      92% of the hydro electric production
      40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
      60% of the fish landings
      30% of the beef herd
      20% of the sheep herd
      9% of the dairy herd
      10% of the pig herd
      15% if the cereal holdings
      20% of the potato holdings
      90% of the whisky industry
      25% of Europes tidal energy
      25% of wind power
      10% of wave energy
      Over 60% of EU oil production (largest oil reserve in the EU)
      33% of the EUs total hydrocarbon production
      WE HAVE A:
      17 billion pound construction industry
      13 billion food and drink industry
      10 billion business services industry
      9.3 billion chemical services industry
      9.3 billion tourism industry
      7 billion financial services industry
      5 billion aeroservice industry
      4.5 billion pound whisky exports industry
      3.1 billion pound life sciences industry
      And 350 million pounds worth of textile exports
      Scotland also has the the greatest level of the highest educationally qualified adults in Europe.

      courtesy of Petra who originally posted this. Hope she doesnt mind. This is just part of it too 🙂

    170. Macart says:


      So far up their own Brexit arse Heed, I doubt they could find the exit with the aid of a GPS and a six man safari.

    171. ronnie anderson says:

      Stephen Gethins / Alex Salmond / Andrew McNeil giving it laldy in Westminster.

    172. Breeks says:

      @ Glamaig 10:10

      That is link is very sobering, but it resonates with my own opinion.

      The critical path for Scotland remaining in Europe at some stage involves sovereignty. We must actually be sovereign, that is independent, or we must be irrevocably committed to becoming independent; that is we have a positive Indyref2 result in the bag.

      If we are sovereign, and only if we are sovereign, then our membership can be continuous. In the latter situation, and only in those narrow parameters of a positive YES vote delivered, is the option of holding pen status applicable. That status will not exist for what is a mere region of the UK. I just cannot see the EU entertaining any special arrangements for Scotland which require the assent of Westminster. That isn’t going to happen, and you are deluded if you think it might. Ok, make the argument that the UK is a bipartite treaty between two sovereign kingdoms so there is continuity, but that option too requires Scotland’s sovereignty to be distinguishable from UK sovereignty. Same difference, different path.

      That isn’t the worst case scenario either, but I think it is the most likely scenario we will find ourselves to be in. We need the right answer to the issue of our sovereignty BEFORE the Brexit watershed, or out of Europe we tumble. That’s our bottom line.

      This assumes too that we have two years after Article 50 before the axe falls on Brexit, but I fear that is a dangerous supposition to rely on too. If negotiations fail, as they are almost certain to, then the end game for Brexit could be upon us much sooner than we expect. What possible incentive does Theresa May for listening to our cries of “wait” once she knows a constructive treaty with Europe isn’t going to happen? By then it will already be too late.

      I welcome reports Nicola plans to deliver an Indyref2 ultimatum to Theresa May at the SNP conference, but we are running out space and time for manoeuvring. Nicola needs to be working to her own timetable which delivers a referendum and UK exiting protocols to be substantially complete before we actually exit Europe. There is no time left to wait on the Tories dithering and painting themselves into a corner.

      Ask yourselves what the minimum practicable period might be for holding a referendum, then further ask yourself what period of negotiation is required to move from a referendum result to a formal Declaration of Independence. Back in 2014, speculation on that process taking 18 months was considered optimistic. Now we expect both that and the referendum itself to be concluded in less than 2 years??? Then we need to be getting on with it.

      Only with full sovereign independence does our fate lie within our own hands. With a YES result in the bag and sovereign independence pending, we can hope for holding pen status in Europe, but only provided Europe extends that concession to us. It sounds likely, but it’s their call, not ours.

      Anything short of the above two options, and that article is correct. We are out of Europe and lumped with the problems of negotiating our way back in, and still bound to the fate of the UK.

      I don’t see any other option or compromise being workable. The crunch time is now, or else we are cutting it mighty fine to secure the place in Europe which so much relies upon. This is not a drill. This is the real thing.
      If you don’t want this left to an emergency UDI with fraught negotiations before midnight chimes, then Nicola’s ultimatum has to be a mighty good one.

    173. Iain More says:


      In relation to the GRG scandal hitting the BRBS. I know from the experience of acquaintances that they aren’t the only British Bank that has behaved like that.

      Being cynical about it, well it is going to be another whitewash as in nothing to see here and move along SNP and Scots BAAHD Press and Media blitz. Not one of those Bankers will end up in jail where they belong.

      I thought I would raise this since the concept of a Scottish Investment Bank has hit a front page.

    174. Fred says:

      @ Bob Mack, Bruce Hosie has the right of it, there’s no shortage of people looking for work, we elect MP’s not their relations, it’s called nepotism (from nephew!) It’s jobs for the boys, never mind how long it’s been going on! How do MP’s manage this colossal workload who don’t recruit their family. Time it was stopped, doesn’t look good whatever the excuse.

    175. heedtracker says:

      Its sunny in Dublin! Dr NO! says don’t watch this. Alex Salmond MP on tour, in a small country with 8% growth rate. That’s an extraordinary figure by world standards.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana, @Glamaig
      Kirsty Hughes is warning we’re running out of time to stay in the EU after negotiations are complete with the UK, but before it Brexits – otherwise we go out with the UK.

      She is right, it’s going to be very very close, I didn’t think Sturgeon could call it until a day or two after May has invoked Article 50, but the referendum itself would be at least 6 months after that.

      I think Sturgeon might have to call for it quite soon, to get the S30 order through, and the Referendum over about 18 months before Brexit day, to give barely enough time to actually be Independent on the day of Brexit. Perhaps that SNP resolution described in The National is the start of it all.

      Unless some fudge can be worked out with both the UK and EU – the holding pen idea. I’m starting to think that won’t work. The EU can’t hang around for ever waiting for Scotland to make up its mind.

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana, @Glamaig
      My mistake – that Kirsty Hughes is the October one, not the earlier one I thought it was. I shouldn’t have doubted Nana!

    178. Joannie says:

      @ Heedtracker – the person who posted that You Tube tries to undermine its contents by claiming that Ireland’s GDP is artificially inflated by multinationals. That’s true, but irrelevant to Alex Salmond’s point about Ireland recovering from the economic mess of the banking crisis.

      Ireland’s GNP – which omits the profits of multinationals – is also growing, and in the second quarter of this year reached a record high.

      And lest it be forgotten, Ireland has absolutely no oil.

    179. Bob Mack says:


      Sorry, but we disagree. They have to employ someone who has access to their office and their home . The diary of an MP’S is something to behold and is regularly updated throughout any given day. My cousin was an MP’S so I am very aware of this. It is not just a matter of a “job”, but also involves calls at Al, hours of the day and night often to their home. It is practical to have somebody who is available to that end.
      Do you actually believe an MP’S business is confined to office hours ?

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting article out a couple of hours ago about pound recover, but also some insights into the Tory conference last week:

      I certainly hope it does recover so I can buy up some business supplies which I tried to do last week to find out the price was based on a morning spot price for the dollar 🙁

      Thanks for that, backs up what I’ve seen as well. Are you from Ireland? Great if you are, the Irish perspective will be very important because of the EU issue as well. All we need is at least one regular poster from each of the EU27 countries!

    181. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      “Unless some fudge can be worked out with both the UK and EU – the holding pen idea”

      I rather assumed the holding pen idea would be applied if Scotland had voted to leave the UK before the UK leaves the EU. If Scotland couldn’t uncouple from the UK before we all leave the EU, then Scotland gets temporary holding pen status.

      IndyRef2 MUST be held before we all leave the EU.

      The ideal would be both Scotland and rUK have their Independence Days at exactly the same time. Thus no need for holding pens.

      As you point out, time may be of the essence, as they say.

      IMO the EU won’t be openly be interested in Scotland until we vote YES. Once we do, we have shown ourselves to be EU citizens who want to remain EU citizens and have voted for Indy in order to do so. The EU at that point has an obligation to look after not only the interests of the 27, but also Scotland.

      I would hope, under these circumstances, negotiations with EU and UK involve tidy uncoupling of Scotland and its continuing state status in the EU.

      With talk of hard Brexit, border posts in Ireland, and screwing up of Ireland’s legal framework for peace, I also expect a reunification referendum. It would make sense for that to occur at the same time as IndyRef2 and if Ireland votes Reunify, that could occur as rUK exits the EU, and Scotland exits the UK.

    182. Joannie says:

      @yesindyref2 – yes I’m from Ireland. Our government’s perspective at the moment is mass panic about Brexit which will be like a dirty bomb in our economy. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and stay in the EU, it would at least make the dirty bomb less damaging, and may even give Northern Ireland ideas. An intelligent Irish government would be a voice in favour of Scotland at the EU table.

      There’s never any guarantee, of course, that any government will behave intelligently.

    183. Luigi says:


      Just about anything can be excused if the will is there (as ably demonstrated by many a politician). The point is that politicians hiring relatives is very unpopular with the public, and as Fred said, MPs with no family hires seem to manage quite well.

      No excuses – no relatives should be hired. If the relatives need some experience, why don’t they work for other MPs? The Donald Trumps of the world hire their relatives. Politicians should not.

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, that’s right, the holding pen idea would be if a YES vote was in but Independence hadn’t occurred before Brexit.

      The best bet of all is if the UK co-operates fully after a YES vote, then as the actual member state it can give permission for the EU to talk directly to Scotland. Problem is if it thinks this might weaken its negotiating position with the EU, and this is where it’s up to the EU27 to say “No, that’s a seperate issue”. But will they?

      Ireland’s difficult, there’s people in Ireland who don’t want reunification with Northern Ireland, that’s even if Stormont goes for the Referendum. But yes, in an ideal world, that would also happen on Brexit day.

    185. heedtracker says:

      And lest it be forgotten, Ireland has absolutely no oil.

      They’re quite radical too, as an electorate. They use referendums, they switched to the euro without our kind of red and blue tory hysterics. They use referendums on far more issues than our imperial master baiters could cope with.

      No Irish nuke weapons, sensible sized military, not much EU anti freedom of movement hysterics, probably about 3 million more Irish than Scots, despite massive emigration but about the same size of population Scotland might have, if so many didn’t automatically leave for London, an actual real special USA relationship, with EU membership.

      Ofcourse no royals, or toryboys, or at least Britnat toryboys like ours.

      Britnats have ripped up our EU citizenship in front of us but they kept shrieking that small countries are nothing in the big bad world or the EU. Ireland voted no to the Lisbon Treaty 2008? and that was that.

      Except it wasn’t it, 18 months later, Ireland changed its mind in another referendum and there’s a massive lesson for Scotland there, very very massive. Countries CAN change their minds.

      Rushing here and its probably much more complicated, even so!

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, difficult times for Ireland. The irony is that if Ireland did go for reunification, there could be a case for actually strengthening the borders between the two for a transitional period, and perhaps one definite thing would be for NI to get a devolution “settlement” from Ireland – same day as the reunification. I guess one condition in the Act that created that Devolution, would be that the devolved NI could if it wanted at any time, hold a referendum on reunification with the rUK! Same as the Northern Ireland Act has about reunification with Ireland.

    187. Joannie says:

      There’s another reason why indyref Scotland and border poll Ireland should take place at the same time – the loyalist element will be out bashing heads and throwing petrol bombs if the vote doesn’t go their way. At least if they have two sets of nationalists facing up to them they won’t be able to all congregate in one country and case mayhem.

      We saw the way they behaved in Glasgow even when they won, they’ll be much nastier when they lose.

    188. Joannie says:

      @yesindyref2 – if the people of the North ever vote for unity, that’s that. There won’t be any law that allows them to vote for reunification with the UK, for one thing because the UK wouldn’t take them back and for another because the type of electorate needed to vote for a united Ireland in the first place wouldn’t want it.

    189. Glamaig says:

      @Bob Mack
      so how do the 89% of SNP MPs who dont employ relatives manage?
      Sounds like theres only 6 MPs out of 56 doing it.

      If those 6 would just gonny no dae that, it would be a big help.

      Im fairly sure the happy faces I saw trooping into the polling station in the revolution of GE2015 thought they were voting for something new, not more nepotism.

    190. Bob Mack says:

      It is not excusing anything. It is just practical. Most MP’S would need someone who wants to work 16 hours a day. How much would that cost the tax payer,which is the gist of this argument?. Constituents ,papers,organisations of all hues and types try to gain access to MP’S.
      As I say, my cousin was an MP and had office staff during the day. I was at their home one night for 5 hours ,and in that time there were over 80 calls re business, which were fielded by his family whilst he was in London.
      Why should they do that for nothing?

    191. yesindyref2 says:


      Ireland might not spend so much on defence, but has some tasty patrol vessels including 2 active OPVs and 1 on its way. A bit inadequate on the ability for naval helicopters, but then all it’s really interested in is up to 200nm EEZ, and it has land-based ones. Spends about 1.3% of GDP on defence. They manage to have 2 MPAs – Maritime Patrol Aircraft whereas the UK has a flat zero specific ones, though some are / have been adapted experimentally.

    192. Brian says:

      What’s become a “standard piece” of perceptive analysis from Wings…well done, again. I think the most depressing thing I learned here was that this GF site is the “most read UK Politics website”. What does that tell us about the UK?

    193. yesindyref2 says:

      Turn that on its head Brian, a site about Scottish Politics with just 1/12th of the population of the whole UK, is 2nd in the whole UK. Wow.

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, correction to that (Irish navy), since the Róisín-class is also an OPV with two of them, that’s 4, plus the new bigger Samuel Beckett class coming soon. They’re kitted out with the OTO Melara 76 mm, used on FREMM (EU frigate), Italy, and the Norwegian frigate Fridtjof Nansen. Anti-missile capability. Cool.

    195. call me dave says:

      Geez! Bercow boiler for Galloway.

    196. Fireproofjim says:

      If Brexit is declared in March I think Inde2 should be timed for Setember 2017.
      That gives 6 months for the new Yes campaign. Last one was too long, but did the job in bringing numbers up from 25% to 45%. Now that we are so experienced we will not need such a long learning period.
      We know from last time exactly what the Unionists will use against us and we should be able to counter anything they can throw at us, and with the full horrors of Brexit around the corner we are in the best place ever to win.
      Campaigning from March to September also gives us the benefit of Summer days for rallies and long light evenings for canvassing.
      Most importantly, in September 2017 we will still be a part of the EU and we comply with all the European regulations, so it should not be a protracted process.
      The SNP delegates have already started making overtures to the EU, and by September 2017 they should have all the agreements in place for Scotland’s seamless admission.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      Just been looking things up on a cool accurate and well-informed blog that has absolutely nothing to do with me, it’s a coincidence that I wrote it:

      and I must protest in the strongest possible terms about the possibility of Ireland being reunified. Scotland has a population of 5.4 million and would get 13 MEPs, whereas Ireland only has 4.6 million and 11 MEPs. We’d be bigger than you! If you reunified you’d have 6.4 million and 15/16 MEPs, you’d be bigger than us 🙁

    198. Joannie says:

      @yesindyref2 – unless our Unionists prefer life in an indy Scotland than a united Ireland and head over there. Then we’d both have 6 million and the same number of MEPs. 🙂

      Nice blog, btw.

    199. yesindyref2 says:

      I think perhaps Sep 2017 is 2 to 4 weeks too early. Last one people were only just back from holidays, and didn’t really switch on until the last 2 weeks. Well, there’s always going to be a last 2 weeks, but I think it would help with a bit more non-holiday time before that. I’d make it early October which of course has the “disadvantage” it’s the Labour and Tory conferences 😈

    200. Kevin Evans says:

      Your work on these things Rev is amazing. You always investigate and put over a great standard of work.

      But to be honest this is just shite. Not your analysis Rev but the subject and content from the yoons. Am scunnered of this pish. We are being dragged out the EU and it’s going to effect 100,000 of UK jobs and funding projects designed to improve our quality of life. Am astounded there are some people I know, hard working responsible people who have said to me “isn’t brexit great” these people also hate the SNP and any leader they have. I guess labour through and through. I do know the guy was a mason. That might have more to do with it.

      Am full of emotions about this stuff lately and I might be losing it. Lol.

      I think my foulkes would be better served investing labours pedo cllr and just what Scottish labour knew about and hide before the election.

    201. Meindevon says:

      Glamaig @ 2.07pm

      That so needs to go on billboards around the country!

      Indy would be a shoe in!

      (…and not just Scotland. It would shock and stun a few folk down here)

    202. galamcennalath says:

      Fireproofjim says:

      “If Brexit is declared in March I think Inde2 should be timed for Setember 2017.”

      yesindyref2 says:

      “I’d make it early October ”

      … good time scale to get everything tidied up for synchronised Brexit and Indy.

      The problem I can see is that the style of Brexit still won’t be known in any detail. Just how hard?

      The harder the better for a Yes vote perhaps. But then again, a hard border may put some people off.

      You are allowing 18 months for Indy negotiations and preparations within Scotland. Could we not consider planning for a Hard Indy negotiations? Scotland walks away from its share of moveable assets AND any debt. That would reduce the timescale! And that would allow a later Indyref2 with increased details of Brexit.

      Glad I don’t have to make such critical decisions!

    203. Orri says:

      Bear in mind that keeping Sterling might not be as convincing an argument. Nor would being in the EU. In fact given the grim determination for a hard Brexit those independence supporters against full membership might compromise with a EFTA or similar solution.

      Thankfully the Queensferry Crossing is nearly complete so hopefully the fall in exchange rates won’t have as huge an impact but be prepared for the crowing if it’s a penny over budget due to it.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      As long as Revenue Scotland is ready, and outline ministries for defence, the EU, international affairs, currecny, central bank, finance for treasury and borrowing, and the rest of the previously reserved issues, Scotland with a YES vote should be able to have Independence day ON Brexit day, and the rest of the negotiations follow behind.

      I’d make it a few days before Brexit, just from the point of view of the Independence Day to celebrate year after year 🙂

    205. yesindyref2 says:

      That might actually be a difficult but sensible idea, and one even the ScotGov should consider encouraging. It would take a lot of heart-searching and head-scratching all the same. And it would face a lot of resistance!

    206. Stoker says:

      Glamaig (@2:07pm)

      Thanks for that! How the francis did i miss that first time round?

      Petra, sorry to be a pest but could you post the lot of that again or point me to the thread you put it on?

      That’s some serious leaflet ammo!

    207. manandboy says:

      We’ve known for some time that IndyRef2 wouldn’t be enough on it’s own, and then along came Brexit, a game changer in its own right, but still not enough to muster 60% of motivation for IndyRef2. Except that GB is as yet only pregnant with Brexit, and it may well be a very long time till actual delivery.
      And it’s not that we have nothing to do in the meantime, not with the local government elections a mere 7 months away. Then we have The Donald & Hillary Show next month, and the east-west military exhibition in the Middle East building nicely.

      Yep, I guess it’s too early to launch indyref2.

    208. Robert Louis says:

      Some very interesting discussions above. The reality is, that right at the beginning of all this, had Westminster been willing to discuss specific scenarios for keeping Scotland within BOTH the UK and EU, by some kind of special status, then I do not doubt the ScotGov would have discussed it positively – the Greenland/Denmark scenario.

      Now, however, since the Tories have made it abundantly clear that they will not listen to Scotland, nor consider Scotland during Brexit, it means that either Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against its will, or Scotland will dissolve the treaty of union with England, and put an end to the UK.

      You see, had the Tories been savvy, they could have had both Scotland in the UK and IN the EU (their would have been many strategic benefits to such an arrangement for Westminster, and Scotland), but because of their pig-headed anti Scotland dogma and stupidity, Westminster risk losing Scotland (and believe me, they do see Scotland as a possession).

      Fact is, people in Scotland are horrified at what is happening, and the Scot Gov has only one tool left to keep Scotland in the EU, and that is independence.

      Yes, of course the SNP wants independence, but what has pushed it forward now has not been the FM, but the sheer brazen undemocratic arrogance of Westminster towards the Scottish people.

      Let us see what happens at conference. Either way, we now know indyref2 is coming, and maybe much sooner than we all expect.

    209. Glamaig says:

      Stoker, Meindevon

      to save Petra the trouble heres installment 2:

      The original post was very long with lots of youtube links etc. Enough for a WBB by itself.

      I think it was posted around June 2015, probably needs updating here and there esp. on the oil revenue.

      The problem is the sheer volume of information that is not given to the Scottish people and how to present it all without delivering a small library to each house…


      • Renewable energy currently supports over 11,000 jobs in Scotland (Scottish Renewables, January 2014).
      • The Scottish Government has an ambitious but achievable target for renewable energy in Scotland to generate the equivalent of 100 per cent of gross annual electricity consumption and 11 per cent of heat consumption by 2020.
      • Renewable generation in Scotland is enough to power the equivalent of every household in Scotland.
      • Boosting renewable energy will also make a significant contribution to a sustainable economy.
      Wave and tidal energy:
      • Scotland has an estimated 25% of Europe’s tidal potential and 10% of its wave potential.
      • The European Marine Energy Centre (EMEC) celebrated ten years of real-sea experience in 2013. There have been more grid-connected marine energy converters deployed at EMEC than at any other single site in the world and the centre remains the world’s only accredited marine energy laboratory.
      • The Pentland Firth and Orkney Waters is the site of the world’s first commercial scale leasing round for marine energy.
      • The Crown Estate, which owns the sea bed, has awarded leases for just over 1.6 gigawatts of marine projects in the Pentland Firth and Orkney Waters – potentially enough to power 750,000 households.
      •The Saltire Prize is the world’s largest prize for marine energy innovation.
      • Onshore wind power has recently overtaken hydro power as the most common form of renewable energy in Scotland.
      • Figures published in June 2013 show wind generation in the first quarter of 2013 reached a record high, up by 11.5% year on year.
      • Scotland boasts 25% of Europe’s offshore wind resources.
      • Scotland was the one of the first countries in the world to harness electricity from its waters. That legacy is still visible – Scotland’s ambitious hydro building programme in the 1950s and 1960s resulted in infrastructure which still produces electricity today.
      • More hydro schemes are in the pipeline and the Scottish Hydropower Resource Study found that there could be as much economically viable untapped hydropower potential to power a quarter of Scotland’s homes.
      North Sea oil and gas
      • On an internationally comparable basis Scotland is estimated to have the largest oil reserves in the European Union, accounting for nearly 60 per cent of total EU reserves.
      • Since the 1970s, over 40 billion barrels of oil equivalent (boe) have been extracted from the UK Continental Shelf. However, the remaining oil and gas reserves on the UKCS are substantial, for example, Oil and Gas UK estimate that up-to 24 billion barrels of oil and gas equivalent can still be recovered from the UKCS as a whole.
      • The North Sea still produces 1.5 million boe a day and Oil & Gas UK estimates that production could reach 2 million boe a day by 2017. In 2011, Scotland accounted for over 60% of EU oil production and approximately a third of EU total hydrocarbon production.
      • Oil and gas production is estimated to have contributed around £22 billion to Scottish GDP in 2012 – making it the largest industrial sector in Scotland by a large margin.
      • Since 1976, the UK Government has raised approximately £180 billion in direct tax revenue from oil and gas production. Adjusted for inflation, this is equivalent to approximately £300 billion at 2012-13 prices.
      • In 2011-12 alone, oil and gas production in Scottish waters generated £10.6 billion in tax revenues, the second highest nominal level of tax revenue in the past 25 years.
      • The Scottish Government Oil and Gas Analytical Bulletin (11 March 2013) found that given recent trends in investment and prices, the oil and gas industry could generate between £41 and £57 billion in tax revenue over the six years to 2017-18.
      • The industry provides employment for around 200,000 people across Scotland both directly in the industry and by supporting jobs in other sectors of the economy.

    210. Robert Louis says:


      I beg to differ with your analysis regarding indyref2. The polls will change very little until such time as their is an active campaign and impending referendum. That is EXACTLY what happened first time around. The advantage now, is the polls are 50:50 at the starting point, instead of 30:70.

      Given the present circumstances, I do not doubt the YES vote would be in the region of 70%, once a campaign is running and the public engage.

      The idea that we must wait until by some magical process or evolution or something more Scots support independence, is just baloney. Change won’t happen by itself.

    211. Vestas says:

      @ Robert Louis :

      We won’t get 70%.

      60% is my target but 70% would require a lot of elderly people to either die or not vote. I doubt recent Brexit stuff bothers them much – unless their grandchildren get on their case?

      Critical factor will be timing & whether we retain EU membership.

      There is probably a hard core of 20% of voters in Scotland who wouldn’t vote Yes even if the alternative was being taken over by aliens & harvested for food.

      60% Yes. That’ll do.

      If we can’t convince most of the rest of the 40% of No voters to change their minds within 5-10 years after a Yes vote then fair enough, we have a problem.

    212. Robert Louis says:

      Vestas at 607pm,

      You know given current circumstances, the idea, as you put it, of “being taken over by aliens & harvested for food”, may very soon be a rather attractive option compared to the English Brexit catastrophe. 🙂

    213. yesindyref2 says:

      @ Robert Louis at 5:50 pm

      Well put, and agree with both later posts.

    214. Glamaig says:

      ..and in 2014 there was maybe too much emphasis on trying to write Scotland post-indy budget and trying to put numbers on everything. No two economists will ever agree on anything, and it was wide open to the figures being picked apart.

      To my mind, our resources speak for themselves, and are pretty much facts that are harder to argue with. Along with the fact that almost half the worlds independent nations are smaller than Scotland by population, and most of them would give an arm and a leg for what we have.

    215. Bill McDermott says:

      O/T I may be imagining things here but I wonder if other people have noticed that the BBC have begun to use ‘national correspondents to report on news items in Scotland.

      That has been the case with Bailey Gwyn and Paige Docherty in the last two days. Am I paranoic?

    216. heedtracker says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      12 October, 2016 at 3:44 pm

      Yes it seems to keep them safe and sound, and its a very different war is good mentality from our imperial masters.

      Its maybe changed but southern Ireland’s not exactly enthused by the idea of reunification and all that loyalism. Who can blame them.

    217. Joannie says:

      @indyref2 – we’re also not enthused by having a hard border between ourselves and the north, as now seems inevitable.

    218. heedtracker says:

      A dose of EU reality for UKOK toryboys.

      “For the many friends and admirers that Britain still has in Europe, these must be trying times. Some of them might have expected the UK to be engaged by now in a serious and wide-ranging debate on how to mend fences with its so-much-bigger brother across the Channel. Instead, Britain is losing itself in delusional grandstanding, talking about itself to itself.”

      “Whatever the political darlings of the billionaire-owned British press tell themselves and their followers, Brexit will mean what the EU decides it means.”

      Hope they didn’t see today’s Daily Heil raging fury at the world today.

    219. Stoker says:

      Glamaig (@ 5:54pm & 6:15pm)

      Thank you!

    220. heedtracker says:

      Poor old Remainers. usual Daily Heil freak out but battled hardened YESers eat creeps like Dacre as part of a healthy Scottish breakfast.

      “To all these embittered Remainers, the Mail has a simple message: You lost. Stop the anti-democratic games and respect the emphatic verdict of the British people.

      From the moment the referendum result became clear, Remain have been sore losers: incredulous that the British people could be so disrespectful as to reject their wisdom, and increasingly furious that the economy? far from collapsing, as predicted by Mr Osborne, is flourishing.

      So it was that they resorted to desperate subterfuge.”

    221. Ken500 says:

      Northern Island (2 million pop) raises £28Billion in taxes gets another 50% ie £14Billion = £42Billion- for Unionist votes. Norwegian levels of funding. Ie 5 million pop raises £84Billion in taxes.

      Scotland raises £54Billion + (50%?) £27Billion = would be £81Billion – Norwegian levels.

      Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes gets £13Billion deficit of UK Gov policies. Pays loan repayments on rest of the UK debt. Nearly £4Billion, nearly £1Billion on Trident, could tax ‘loss leading’ drink= £1Billion saving. £3Billion? lost In tax evasion. Scotland has lost £4Billion+ a year in Oil revenues. The Tories (Osbourne) was taxing the Oil sector at 80% to 60% when the price had fallen 75%. (£20Billion) = £13Billion.

      Thatcher illegally and secretly took the equivalent of £300Billion in Oil revenues from Scotland.

      Scotland lost £Billions in Oil & Gas revenues and thousands of jobs because of Westminster Tories economic policies. Scotland would have had really low unemployment. 3%

      Untaxed fracked Gas is now being imported from the US. The Oil & Gas sector in Scotland is taxed by Westminster at 40%.

      Now Brexit a total disaster. £Billiions has been lost with the fall in the £. The Tories are ruining the world economy.

    222. yesindyref2 says:

      @Joannie @Heed
      Yes, a lot of talking needed beteween the two governments – and peoples.

      In spite of Brexit reducing EU funds (perhaps) it would be a good idea for the EU to make extra funds available in case of reunification, development funds, that sort of thing.

    223. galamcennalath says:

      Joannie says:

      “we’re also not enthused by having a hard border between ourselves and the north, as now seems inevitable.”

      Reunification would sort that issue. However I don’t know enough about feelings on each side of the border to even guess if that will happen.

      The only thing I would say is that there must be many Northern Unionists who, like their Scottish counterparts, should be thinking about the style of UK which is emerging. Is that really their UK any more?

    224. Legerwood says:

      Bill McDermott says:
      12 October, 2016 at 6:20 pm
      “”O/T I may be imagining things here but I wonder if other people have noticed that the BBC have begun to use ‘national correspondents to report on news items in Scotland.

      That has been the case with Bailey Gwyn and Paige Docherty in the last two days. Am I paranoic?””

      The BBC News has always done this. If a Scottish related item is reported on the BBC main news then the item is reported for example by the likes of Lorna Gordon who is based on Scotland. When the same item is covered immediately after the main bulletin by Reporting Scotland it is one of their in-house reporters who front the item.

      Perhaps you are being a bit paranoid.

    225. Ken500 says:

      UK households lose revenues. Prices going up. Daily Mail – Lord Rothermere non Dom multimillionaire and Paul Dacre can tax evade. Enough is never enough for some lying crooks.

    226. Chic McGregor says:

      Looked at some sectors in detail. Here is part of a post in Off Topic from 5 May 2015 (long).

      Oil price is recovering, nudging towards $70, but is still at a low level for recent years. So some folk may well be wondering why the British establishment still seem so desperate to hang on to a Scotland in possession of only one oily banana.

      In the past I have tried to point out that the UK has many more reasons than oil for holding on to Scotland. I have, for instance, attempted to show the importance of the Food and Drink sector in the equation.

      However trying to do so using nominal monetary value which is confused by a plethora of ‘adjustments’ – tax breaks, subsidy levels, tariffs, voucher systems, GVA calculations with confusing, inconsistent and somewhat arbitrary assumptions of when a subsidy is a subsidy or not? has made for a less than satisfactory result.

      Whether deliberate or coincidental, the result of all that mind-boggling confusion, obscures the underlying message.

      Also, when numbers go above about a billion, folk’s minds, including mine, tend to start wondering where a squirrel is when you need one.

      But a few days ago, I hit on the idea of concentrating on raw produce levels instead of nominal monetary value and also, and I think crucially, drastically reducing the number sizes by calculating the amount produced for each and every man woman and child in Scotland per day.

      And to do so in terms of measurements which are readily understood in the everyday real world.

      In that way, potentially distorting accountancy measures are avoided, and daily volumes are more readily recognisable and familiar.

      So in the following you will often see an abbreviation I have coined ‘p4d’ which is shorthand for Production Per Person Per Day.

      I have also calculated comparative figures for England or rUK.

      I have been data crunching this for about three days and have only got through three sectors, albeit main ones.

      It would be better with piccies, a photo of two plates say with the food amounts shown for Scotland and England, rather than verbal examples, but no time for that just now.

      Anyway, have a swatch if you can spare the time.


      Not exhaustive, just the key staples.

      Fish Production

      Conventional fishing

      Landed at Scottish ports i.e. less than the total actually caught in Scottish waters. Scotland lands about 2/3 of the UK’s fisheries production.

      About 190 g production per person per day (p4d). Taking haddock as an illustrative example that would be about two and half of Tesco’s Prime Haddock Fillets (86% fish) p4d in Scotland (of course, in reality, it is a much more diverse catch than just haddock)
      England landed fish figure equates to only about 6 or 7 g p4d or less than a quarter of an ounce, not even a proper mouthful .


      The main product of Scotland’s rapidly expanding aquaculture industry.
      Scotland 85 g p4d. According to M&S that is just about two servings of their smoked Lochmuir salmon side.
      England, of course, virtually nothing.

      It is worth a mention, that although smaller in weight volume, salmon is now worth more in monetary terms than the conventional fisheries catch.

      Meat Production

      Beef (nearly 30% of UK herd)

      Scotland 93 g p4d Enough for a Birdseye original 1/4 pounder burger (77% beef) for every man, woman, child in Scotland every day
      England p4d only a quarter of said burger.

      Lamb (nearly a quarter of UK herd)

      Scotland 28.5 g p4d Just over an ounce. Might not seem a lot but that is several times more than Scots actually consume, we are not big lamb eaters.
      England only around 7g p4d Also, the English eat three times more lamb per head than Scots

      Pig meat (10% of UK herd)*

      Scotland 30 g of pig meat p4d Equivalent to two Tesco streaky bacon rashers.
      England a little less. However the UK, including Scotland, remains a big net pig meat importer.

      Poultry(just under 8% of UK stock)*

      Scotland chicken 61 g p4d About two and a quarter ounces or around 3 Tesco roast chicken slices.
      Scotland Eggs, just under half an egg p4d
      England a little more

      *Pigs and poultry
      Pigs and poultry are in a slightly different category from sheep and cattle because the distribution of nominal production is not tied to land use per se, unlike for grazing animals.

      Cereals Production
      Scottish cereal production is, overall, about 12% of the UK total, therefore, per head, nearly one and a half times the UK average. However, cereal does not generally find its way to the table directly. Therefore we must be careful not to be guilty of double accounting.


      Scotland just over 1Kg p4d. The equivalent of 4 X 250 gm (9 oz.) bags of barley from Tesco.
      England 0.2 Kg p4d. A fifth of Scottish p4d levels.

      However, 34% of Scottish barley goes to maltings (whisky) and 54% to animal feed. Still, the remaining 12% could form the basis of a pretty big pot of soup.


      Scotland just over half a Kg p4d
      Only around 2/3 of rUK p4d but well more than offset by the barley production.


      Scotland About 80 g p4d Over one and a half servings if all were used for porridge but some, again, is used for animal feed.
      RUK around 25 g p4d. About half a porridge serving equivalent.

      Oilseed Rape

      Not strictly a cereal. It is used increasingly as a vegetable oil, animal feed and biofuel
      This crop also increases other grain yields through rotation with them.

      Scotland 76.5 g p4d
      rUK 85 g p4d. Slightly more.

      Potato Production

      Scotland 590 g (1.3 pounds) p4d Equivalent of two reasonably large portions of chips.
      rUK 240 g, (about 8oz) p4d

      Note Scotland produces most of the UK’s seed potatoes.

      Milk Production

      Scotland 1.214 pints of milk p4d
      England 0.79 of a pint p4d.

      Milk is obviously used to also produce butter and cheese and other table bound items as well.

      Whisky Production

      Scotland about 70% of a bottle p4d.
      rUK, not a lot.

      Because this uses 34% of Scotland’s barley crop and the land used to grow it (around 100,000 hectares) it is effectively, despite its nutritional dubiety, an agricultural product. But, it would be beyond silly not to point out there is a unique value added for this product that sets it apart from other agri-products.
      Scotland’s distilling industry also makes significant and increasing volumes of other spirits. I believe even the majority of that quintessentially English product, gin, is now made in Scotland, though I have not seen the detailed figures.

      What does the Food and Drink Sector mean in money terms and for independence?

      The UK annual food and drink consumption in money terms, the annual grocery bill if you like, comes to a little over 50 billion pounds.

      Currently the UK exports about 19 billion pounds worth but imports about 40 billion pounds worth.

      A current trade deficit on food and drink of 21 billion pounds.

      What does that amount mean (apart from the UK needing to import about 40% of its food and drink)?

      Well, to put it in context, it dwarfs oil revenue, even in good oil price years. It is a huge amount.

      Looking at it again on a per person basis might be more meaningful. It amounts to nearly 400 quid a year for every person in the UK, or about 1500 pounds per family per year.
      It represents an in built deficit which has to be paid before anything else can be paid for.

      And of course with ‘pooling and sharing’ Scots also have to share that bill in whatever ways it manifests itself.

      But what if Scotland were on its own?

      Scotland has a food and drink annual turnover of around 13 billion pounds.

      Scotland exports about 5.4 billion pounds of food and drink overseas, almost a third of UK food and drink exports, plus about another 2 billion to the rUK.

      Scotland’s consumption of food and drink is something south of 5 billion.

      The massive UK food and drink deficit is not of Scotland’s making.

      What would independence mean re food and drink for the rUK?

      5.4 billion would disappear from the positive side of the UK balance sheet and the 2 billion Scottish exports to rUK would appear on its negative side, Scotland then being outside the UK.

      Plus there would be 8.3% less people to share that bigger bill.

      A big reason to hang on to Scotland.


      You could easily be forgiven, if you only listened to the MSM, that Scotland was in danger of running out of electricity and will be needing to rely on the rUK some time soon.

      What is the reality?

      In 2013, latest complete DUKEs analysis, Scotland produced 53 TWh (net 49.6 )

      A terrawatt hour is the amount of energy you would use if you ran 1000000000000 amps through a 1 ohm resistor for an hour.

      Err right.

      But fear not, like for food production, I am converting this into a smaller and hopefully, more understandable figure in terms of p4d and expressing it in kWh (the familiar ‘unit’ on your leccy bill).

      Scotland 26 kWh (‘units’) p4d
      England 13.4 kWh (‘units’) p4d

      Scotland consumed 32 TWh which gave it a production/consumption ratio of 1.55
      England generated 259 TWh but consumed 295 TWh, production/consumption ratio is 0.88

      Unfortunately, because of England’s much larger population, this means that once again the UK as a whole is running with another deficit. Around 15TWh imported from Europe. Assuming 10 p per unit, that amounts to about 1.5 billion pounds per year.

      Scotland on the other hand ‘exports’ about 15 TWh to the rUK, nominally 1.5 billion pounds worth per year if 10p per unit is taken. Again, on an annual basis this should represent a gain for the Scottish economy of around 300 pounds per person per year, 1200 pound per family.

      Of course, in the event that Scotland became independent this would also nominally double the rUK deficit from 1.5 billion to 3 billion.

      Another reason for hanging on to Scotland.


      In terms of production to consumption ratio, the UK, overall, is in an even bigger trade deficit situation than for food and drink. The UK uses nearly 5 times the wood it produces.

      This amounts to a wood trade deficit of over £5 billion annually.

      How does that break down when comparing production levels between Scotland and England?

      There is a bewildering array of metrics used in the timber production industry.
      Greene tonnes, sawn tonnes, overbark cubic metres/tonnes, under bark, cubic metres/tonnes, recovered tonnes/cubic metres.
      Unlike other land use crops, it is not a case of an annual harvest where the harvest yield = the annual production.
      Trees actually recovered can and do vary as matter of planning considerations.

      I therefore took the view that the best guide to true production levels was the estimated standing annual growth figure i.e. irrespective of whether it was actually harvested that year, and that people would be slightly more sure of what a volume meant rather than a weight.

      In volumetric terms – millions of cubic metres (overbark, standing)
      Annual timber production in Scotland is about 10 million cubic metres per year.
      For England, it is about 5 million cubic metres per year.

      Since people, I think, would be less familiar with what a fraction of a cubic metre meant.

      So to make everyday sense of these figures, I converted into litres of wood production per person per day. Unconventional, I know, but a litre is a volume most folk are pretty familiar with. (and yes it is a fraction of a cubic metre, I know)

      For Scotland, that works out at 5.2 litres of wood p4d.
      For England it works out to 0.26 litres of wood p4d

      A plank v a ruler in pictorial terms.

      Consumption of wood in the UK is around 3 litres of wood per person per day perhaps a little more.

      The deficit is again entirely down to England, indeed Scotland has a trade surplus on wood.

      ‘Export’ to rUK from Scotland is reckoned to be nearly 2 billion pounds a year.

      Another potential trade deficit increase for the rUK if Scotland became independent.

      Another reason to hang on to Scotland.

      And we still haven’t got to oil or engineering, electronics, software, quarrying, life sciences, financial services, tourism, woolens and textiles, university technology spin out partnerships, publishing or design.

    227. Ken500 says:

      The BBC ‘reporters’ are now based in London. Renton and Campbell. Cut backs? .

    228. Petra says:

      @ Bill McDermott says at 6:20 pm …. ”I may be imagining things here but I wonder if other people have noticed that the BBC have begun to use ‘national correspondents’ to report on news items in Scotland.

      That has been the case with Bailey Gwyn and Paige Docherty in the last two days. Am I paranoic?”

      No I don’t think you are being paranoid Bill. I was just saying to my husband tonight that I found it strange that in this case ITV news had been reporting on the Gwyn and Docherty cases, at length, and not mentioned one murder taking place in England. A murder free England?

      Earlier they reported on a homosexual couple, immigrants, who had adopted a young boy in Scotland. One reporting that they wouldn’t be allowed to do that in their own country. I’ve got no problem with that but can imagine it wouldn’t go down too well with others. Additionally why focus on them at all? Picking and choosing, being very selective with, the news items that they broadcast?


      Dennis Canavan stating on STV news tonight that Indyref2 will be called within the next couple of years. Could be called in 2017.


      I posted earlier responding to a number of points on here, but it seems to have disappeared into the ether. Very frustrating. A total timewaster.

      Too may links? I don’t know but considering splitting it up and reposting.

    229. Petra says:

      @ Chic McGregor says at 12:25 pm …. ‘’I think we will need a new Wee B (Brown?) Book for indyref2’ ……

      Great post Chic and I totally agree with you. We should be focusing on putting something together to highlight how wealthy Scotland actually is and that we can afford to go it alone. Absolutely CRUCIAL to winning next time round as it would alleviate many people’s real fears, from pensioners to mortgage payers.

      We could also add some data in relation to other small countries that are thriving to highlight that being ‘too wee’ is counterproductive to the Westminster / Unionist argument such as the link posted by Joannie at 3:03 pm ….

      ”Ireland’s GNP – which omits the profits of multinationals – is also growing, and in the second quarter of this year reached a record high. And lest it be forgotten, Ireland has absolutely no oil.”


      @ Glamaig says at 2:07pm …. ‘One of our biggest enemies is the too wee, too poor bullshit. And since this is the second most read political blog in the UK I’ll just leave this (list of assets) here. ……Courtesy of Petra who originally posted this. Hope she doesn’t mind. This is just part of it too.’’

      Glamaig we’re ALL in this together … a TEAM. All sharing, learning from each other and hopefully going on to educate those who may be unenlightened (due to propaganda in the main), at least make them think, by using each others data. Post it far and wide. And yes I’m sure that list will have to be revamped to alter figures, add to etc.


      @ Robert Louis says 8:41 am …. ”Having said that, I agree with the many others above, that MP’s employing their relatives is something I utterly despise. It is bad, it sends out the wrong message, and it is something which the general public absolutely DO NOT LIKE. My message to such SNP MP’s is simple, it is a slippery slope when you start compromising your values. That is what Labour MP’s from Scotland did – and they all lost their seats. ‘oh, everybody does it’, and ‘well it makes sense really’, and similar rubbish just doesn’t cut it. It needs to stop SNP, or you will end up being NO BETTER than the Labour MP’s you replaced.”


      Spot on Robert. We complain about the nepotistic ‘old boys club’ and this is just another form of such. Not exactly setting a good example are they?

      I’m in contact with workers in Scotland who are on Zero Hour Contracts. Many of them, family men as an example, are losing a day or weeks work (or more), at the drop of a hat, to accommodate relatives and friends of bosses. In other words these people are on agency lists and every time they have some ‘free’ time and want to make a bob or two they just phone in and hey presto. Meanwhile the man who has to put food on the table is LAID OFF. Then of course what you find is that the experienced workers are having to carry these people.

      You can imagine how resentful everyone feels about this putting to one side the constant feelings of depression and anxiety these workers experience on a daily basis. It also leads to insecure workers sooking up the backsides of bosses and backstabbing other colleagues to ensure that they get a days work. Hellish all round.

      I’ve used an example of ZHC’s but of course this is going on in relation to permanent positions too.

      Anyway it’s high time ZHC were scrapped of course along with this despicable practise of employing someone ‘you know’ rather than the best person suited to the job … advertising the post.

      Additionally when we get out Independence we’ll all be looking for complete transparency in Scotland …. access to EVERY penny spent by Councillors and Politicians.


      Another great article from John Pilger highlighting the part the media play / are playing in decimating the Planet.

      From John Pilger the man who puts so many journalists in the UK, in particular Scotland, to SHAME.

    230. harry mcaye says:

      Legerwood – I don’t think that was what was meant by “national”. At lunchtime, it was an English reporter, Ben Ando I think, that reported on the Piage Docherty murder, and managed to get the murderer’s name wrong, calling him Andrew instead of John. As you say, it is usually Lorna Gordon.

    231. schrodingers cat says:

      “being taken over by aliens & harvested for food”

      one harsh winter and we could probably recycle them as used fire lighters

    232. harry mcaye says:

      Just checked his twitter, it was Ben Ando, and he also reported on the Bailey Gwynne case from Aberdeen yesterday. Maybe Lorna’s on holiday.

    233. Petra says:

      @ Heedtracker says at 8:42 am …. ‘’Wow Nana! The guy hadn’t the faintest idea why he voted Leave, X 17 million.’’

      Reminds me of this one:


      @ Nana says at 8:44 am …. ‘Nuclear weapons’ et al.

      Thanks for the brilliant links Nana. You’re a great and most valued example of sharing on here … educating others.

      ‘A school tries to ‘racially profile’ a child.’

      Typifying the Tory Party Nazi policies and with Labour having no chance of winning an election in the near future (not that they’d be any better) you’d think that Kezia Dugdale would put the interests of Scottish children first …. BEFORE her political party / her career. You know the Scottish kids that she professes to care so much about? Join the SNP Party Kezia ASAP.

      EVERY constituency in Scotland should ban Nuclear weapons travelling through Scotland. I know that Defence is devolved to Westminster but this at least would be on record and sending a clear message to everyone outside of Scotland, such as the UN.


      @ Nana says at 9:13 am …. ‘’Re Syria and the west’s takeover.’’

      The proof is there. Isn’t it about high time they were all standing in the Hague?

      We’re all rightly extremely concerned that Trump may win the US Election, however this is what we have to look forward to if Clinton wins:

    234. yesindyref2 says:

      @harry mcaye
      School holidays perhaps. From her twitter she might be South Ayrshire – those are this week, same as North Ayrshire.

    235. heedtracker says:

      Rancid updates Westminster, Rees-Mogg maybe not the sweatie pie he kids on he is. Just another tory thug but he’s looking like the condemned man on BBC Politics stuff though. What;s the antidote to getting a Bath infection?

      4m ago
      In his speech earlier, Jacob Rees-Mogg, a Conservative MP, said it only appeared like his constituency voted to remain because the result had been “infected” by the votes cast in the city of Bath.

      The leading leave campaigner was told by Labour’s Chris Bryant that his north east Somerset constituency had voted to stay in the EU. But Rees-Mogg blamed “urbanites” for the result.

    236. Glamaig says:

      @Petra – was it yourself that posted a superb list of Gordon Browns ‘achievements’?

      If so could you post it again please? Im sure he will be wheeled out again for Indyref 2 although Im not sure what he will be able to ‘promise’ this time.

    237. I see that great socialist Corbyn he of the peoples party is going against the wishes of the majority of the people in the U.K. Whether you believe in bretext or not surley you believe in democracy ? I voted for bretext because I believe it will improve the lives of ordinary working people in the U.K. Wages housing hospitals doctors waiting lists ETC. , but as usual the peoples party do not want these things Labour you are disgrace and always have been you are a large part of the establishment you claim to want to change I was a shop steward in the shipyards on the Clyde but was never stupid enough to vote labour they abandoned their princables as soon as they got into power and nothing has changed

    238. D. Macdonald says:

      Lorna Gordon used to report items on the BBC national network on some Scottish issues. She is now reporting for the BBC on the East coast of America. In fact, she reported on Hurricane Matthew from Florida, but more often than not, she appears to be based in Washington DC.

    239. Al Dossary says:

      Ooops – posted this over in O/T somehow. After the SNP baad rand by Guido, just have a look at Cameron’s latest job. The previous chair was on £120k (as advertised originally for the position), so you can bet your bottom dollar Piglover is on even more! And this is just the start I bet.

      I see that Pigface Cameron has got his snout in the trough already ! He is to be appointed as chairman of the NCS trust (National Citizens Service). To quote the NCS trust itself,

      “NCS Trust is a not-for profit social enterprise established to shape, support, champion and lead a thriving National Citizen Service.”

      Of the 3 other directors, Michael Lynass, CEO was a senior policy advisor for No 10 until he joined NCS trust in 2013, and Will Gallacher, operations Director was special advisor to the Justice Secretary til 2015 when he joined.

      The role of Chair was originally advertised in 2014 at a salary of £120k !!!

      Wonder if Guido will highlight this one to the masses?–120-000.html

    240. heedtracker says:

      Very powerful explanation of Syrian civil on the BBC too. The worst of it all is that its just one more catastrophic ongoing horror, caused by Westminster and it could get worse.

    241. Valerie says:

      Ooo err, this looks serious, as its hitting the breaking news.

      Tesco has warned impending shortage of items as serious row over prices with Unilever.

      Hit the bunkers! It’s started!

    242. heedtracker says:

      I see that great socialist Corbyn he of the peoples party is going against the wishes of the majority of the people in the U.K.”

      If Corbyn was anything like the progressive liberal he’s meant to be, he would campaign for PR D’Hondt Westminster and elected second or upper chamber.

      PR D’Hondt’s the one electoral system that would kill off tory power in the UK, not just for a couple of terms of Crash Gordo red tory wannabe too.

      How do we know D’Hont works as a tory antiseptic:D

      JC’s just one more red tory bollox basically. He’s the Vice President of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament but he’s pro Trident 2, for gawds sake.

    243. Legerwood says:

      harry mcaye says:
      12 October, 2016 at 7:15 pm
      “”Legerwood – I don’t think that was what was meant by “national”. At lunchtime, it was an English reporter, Ben Ando I think, that reported on the Piage Docherty murder, and managed to get the murderer’s name wrong, calling him Andrew instead of John. As you say, it is usually Lorna Gordon.””

      Maybe she was on holiday and he has been parachuted in.

      Getting the name wrong is not the first time the BBC has messed up. When Peter Sutcliffe was found guilty the BBC news reporter broadcast his report from outside Sutcliffe’s house. Except it was not his house. They got the address wrong and had to broadcast an apology and, I should imagine, placate a very angry homeowner.

    244. Valerie says:

      @Heed 7.51

      I saw that tonight, and I honestly nearly fell over! That guy will never be invited back, because he has outed so much right there.

      Folks, go and watch the link in Heeds post, honestly, most amount of truth EVER about Syria on BBC.

      Remember, the White Helmets were nominated by Jo Coxs husband to get a share of the money donated after her death. Alternative media have them outed for some time now.

      This is pretty amazing they had that guy on.

    245. Gaelstorm says:

      I used to be a reader of the GF site, but had to stop because its humour became vicious, and of course the comments were mostly scummy Nazis.

    246. heedtracker says:

      Valerie says:
      12 October, 2016 at 8:02 pm
      @Heed 7.51

      I know. Never heard of him but its a kind of journalism that shames BBC stuff we get, especially the tory Britnat smarm fest in Pacific Quay. Compare and contrast the awful tory buffoonery of likes of Bojo’s stuff in the “house” to what’s actually going on.

      This is his site I think. Lots to read

    247. Legerwood says:

      O/T but it is about an SNP MP but not in the usual political bearpit way.

      There was a very moving item on Channel 4 News tonight about stillbirths. Patricia Gibson (SNP MP North Ayrshire and Arran) featured in the report.

      Could not see a link on CH4 News web site but it is worth watching if you can find it.

    248. Joannie says:

      That guy in Heed’s you tube link is the first person I’ve seen talk sense about Syria. You’d think the west would’ve learned their lesson after supporting Islamists in Afghanistan against the Russians but it seems Russophobia trumps all common sense.

    249. Susan Macdiarmid says:

      Don’t know if it’s already been mentioned but even at a £34k annual salary, Kieran only worked 2 months so contribution to ‘household income’ £5600 max.
      It’s a minor point, a mere baked bean in the rubbish dump that is a Guido Fawkes article, but irritating.

    250. Petra says:

      @ Nana says at 8:44 am …. ‘Nuclear weapons’ et al.

      Thanks for the brilliant links Nana. You’re a great and most valued example of sharing on here … educating others.

      ‘A school tries to ‘racially profile’ a child.’

      Typifying the Tory Party Nazi policies and with Labour having no chance of winning an election in the near future (not that they’d be any better) you’d think that Kezia Dugdale would put the interests of Scottish children first …. BEFORE her political party / her career. You know the Scottish kids that she professes to care so much about? Join the SNP Party Kezia ASAP.

      EVERY constituency in Scotland should ban Nuclear weapons travelling through Scotland. I know that Defence is devolved to Westminster but this at least would be on record and sending a clear message to everyone outside of Scotland, such as the UN.


      @ Nana says at 9:13 am …. ‘’Re Syria and the west’s takeover.’’

      The proof is there. Isn’t it about high time they were all standing in the Hague?

      We’re all rightly extremely concerned that Trump may win the US Election, however this is what we have to look forward to if Clinton wins:

    251. heedtracker says:

      Read all about it! Rancid The Graun says SNP bad, just before their conference in Scotland.

      Haven’t actually read it either because you really don’t have to read red tory Graun to know just how hard they hate the SNP now.

    252. manandboy says:

      O/T This is an extract from a larger article which points to a future massive decommissioning industry, OR, to a future oil production life for the North Sea. It is also a stark reminder that the Tories, in particular, virtually killed the North Sea oil industry through high taxes throughout falling oil prices. But the N Sea isn’t finished yet.

      Challenges to the Future of North Sea Decommissioning

      The rising value of Brent crude would have a detrimental effect on decommissioning, according to Christopher Lloyd, an oil and gas consultant at CL Consultancy.

      “If the oil price is back at $100 per barrel … then all of these assets and all of these people are going to be used for new projects and not decommissioning. Certainly anything above $70, that’s where things will go,” Lloyd said at an oil and gas conference held in London June 7.

      The way in which the industry decides how to undertake decommissioning activity in the future could also be a limiting factor in its development.

      Highlighting this point, McGregor said that the industry can choose whether it wants to have a boom in decommissioning or if it wants to take a more measured approach to allow for production in the North Sea to continue.

      “If we pause and we think about it and we decommission sensibly, and with a plan, then there will still be an increase in decommissioning activity. Whether we call it a boom or not becomes a grey area, however, if we decommission sensibly it will ensure that the key infrastructure remains in place [and that] the industry has a future for new developments,” he added.

    253. stewartb says:

      On manandboy’s O/T on oil decommissioning at 8:49 pm

      These decisions on the central and northern North Sea industry’s future – on the timing and balance between production and decommissioning – must be made with the interests of Scotland’s future economy and society to the fore. A UK government may make very different choices.

      And let’s be clear, the future of this industry for Scotland is not only about the future of the ‘North Sea’ only but also of the Atlantic margin west of Shetland.

    254. Petra says:

      @ heedtracker says at 7:51 pm …. ”Very powerful explanation of Syrian civil on the BBC too. The worst of it all is that its just one more catastrophic ongoing horror, caused by Westminster and it could get worse.”

      WOW, I can’t believe it. Someone actually being allowed to tell the truth on the BBC about Russia / Syria and get into Boris Johnston’s ribs! We should all get on there and leave comments in support of Marcus Papadopoulos.

      Additionally Victoria Derbyshire (BBC2) was talking to a member (leader?) of the white helmets yesterday and you’d have thought they were guardian angels personified.

      @ heedtracker ….”This is his site I think. Lots to read.”

    255. G4jeepers says:

      Been reading the transcript of the Brexit debate in the commons earlier, this bit sticks out in particular:

      “Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)

      The Secretary of State mentions taking back control of fisheries, so is it an area that might be devolved to the Scottish Parliament after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union? Will he rule out—unlike the Secretary of State for Scotland, who seemed to be unable to do so earlier today—any power being repatriated from the Scottish Parliament to this place as part of the Brexit process?

      Mr Davis

      I would not expect that as part of the Brexit process. To take the serious point, we need to discuss with all the devolved Administrations how to address sectors—such as fisheries, farming, hill farming—the legal basis of which will alter as we bring things back to the United Kingdom.

      Alex Salmond

      The position or the status quo, as the Secretary of State well knows, is that everything is devolved to Scotland unless it is reserved. Agriculture and fisheries are not reserved; therefore, they are devolved. Unless the Government intend to change that position, agriculture and fisheries will automatically go to the Scottish Government.

      Mr Davis

      This is an area on which we have not talked to the devolved Administration yet. We will do so before we get to bringing such things back.”

      Seems they’re intending to remove devolved powers after all folks!

    256. cearc says:

      Tomorrow’s FT front page.

      Meanwhile, in Tory-La-La-Land everything’s going exceedingly well and the whole world admires our statesmanship.

    257. Petra says:

      @ Glamaig at 7:32pm …..

      Glamaig I’ve posted the list that I think you’re looking for. If it doesn’t show up I’ll try again later.

    258. ScottishPsyche says:

      That Syria link – Wow! The expert on Russia was truly astonishing on the BBC tonight. What a breath of fresh air. Especially with regard to the White Helmets. Do they think we do not notice that they seem to show up with remarkable regularity and prescience at conflict sites? We are so used to weasel words and spin that to hear something unspun seems so odd.

      The HoC debate on Syria was a disgrace and shone a light on not only the warmongering hypocrisy of those MPs but on their staggering ignorance as well.

      The so called Russian threat worryingly seems to be talked up at every opportunity. No doubt to show that we NEED Trident (read as if an Express headline)

    259. cirsium says:

      @heedtracker, 7.51

      thanks for posting that link on syria. How did that guy get on the BBC!

    260. Calum McKay says:

      You stay classy Guido!

    261. Thepnr says:


      The term Nepotism comes from the Last (but one?) Roman Emperor Julius Nepos. It does mean nephew:

      “Julius Nepos was appointed Western Roman Emperor in early 474 by the Eastern Roman Emperor Leo I. Nepos was married to Leo’s niece, hence his agnomen of nepos — “nephew”.”

    262. Artyhetty says:

      Where to start. So much to keep track of right now, but re, G4jeepers@9.12

      Looking very sinister indeedy. After the ‘no’ vote, always knew anything could happen, with brexit, (engexit) we really are royally screwed while shackled to UKOK.

      Looking at what is going on in much of S.America, I tell you, the rich, powerful, and greedy will go to any lengths to keep the world turning round only for themselves.

      Amazing how many are so dedicated, obsessed with state run media pap, believing it, or brainwashed, or both. All these people wasting time ont’internet, well, the yoon media is streaming into folks kiving rooms 24/7, and best if all, they pay for it!

      Win win for state controll, yee ha!

    263. Chic McGregor says:

      @Glamaig, Petra

      Soon after indyref1 it occurred to me that the message of Scotland’s real worth and consequently the cost to the UK of Scotland leaving, did not really come across during the campaign.

      To be fair, it isn’t easy to get messages over when you have to talk in billions, or terrawatts or millions of cubic feet etc.
      Number blindness kicks in.

      To try to counteract this, I decided to take the approach of dealing in smaller numbers and preferably in units which made the most sense, i.e. were the most familiar, to the Scot in the street.

      So I decided to look at some sectors, concentrating on those which were the most in terms of the fundamental viability of a country.

      To make the numbers smaller, I decided to calculate the produce per person per day (p4d) rather than the more usual annual total figure. I also tried to convert the numbers into units, folk would be most familiar with.

      With this approach, the message could be made even more stark, by, for instance, having a picture of the p4d produce for Scotland on a table, next to a table showing the p4d for England/rUK.

      A summary of some of the work I did is in the following post on Off Topic. I tried to cut’n paste relevant section here FYI but I think it was too long for main street.

      I think that should be extended. however, it should also be backed by exposing the tricks the UK establishment has to hide the reality. Otherwise folk will simply be presented with two contradicting messages.

    264. Capella says:

      For article on the White Helmets and their Western backing – see RT.

    265. Chic McGregor says:

      So I decided to look at some sectors, concentrating on those which were the most significant in terms of the fundamental viability of a country.

    266. yesindyref2 says:

      You’ve got to love the Daily Record with its exclusive about moving the ferry service to Arran from Ardrossan so it can have a 7 day a week service to replace – a 7 day a week servide. Oh. But worse than that is this:

      Sources say the new route would take 66 minutes to cover the 18 nautical miles instead of the current 55 for 12 nautical miles.

      These sources seem to think ferries can travel at 33 knots to do 6 nm extra in 11 minutes. Oops. Full steam ahead, warp 16, “I cannae do it captain!”

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      “.. from Ardrossan to Troon”. I should get a job writing for the Record.

    268. Dr Jim says:

      The big supermarkets are bending over backwards to tell us all they will resist rising prices for the good of good old blighty because Unilever and other big suppliers have told them they’re increasing prices by 10%

      Funny how before the Scottish ref the supermarkets were diving in telling us prices would go up before we even had the ref with Johann Lamont proudly waving her banner to emphasise the point

      Or was that just a rule for viewers where we are

    269. Orri says:

      Note the Freudian slip either in the original or the transcript.

      “Talking to” is not the same as discussion. Sounds like the devolved administrations are getting telt.

    270. Thepnr says:

      Supermarket prices will be rising very soon just as petrol prices are right now. This is as a result of a GDP that is worth 17% less since the Brexit vote.

      See when the half whits that voted leave see this inflation?

      Well fuck them, they voted for it.

    271. heedtracker says:

      cirsium says:
      12 October, 2016 at 9:51 pm
      @heedtracker, 7.51

      thanks for posting that link on syria. How did that guy get on the BBC!

      Looked like he’s at the end of his tether with teamGB rule Britannia news rooms, that’s for sure. He had a lot to get off his chest and he’s right about the rule Britnat anti Russia chauvinism too.

      Its probably as old as the Russian revolution and the UK won the world wars reality. Look at how the England fans booed the Russian national anthem at Euro 2016. Christ only knows why, unless youre being relentlessly fed anti Russia propaganda by usual tory UKOK media. Regime’s like ours are always in need of an enemy. Keeps the plebs in line, focused, scared and trusting, in planet toryboy.

    272. msean says:

      They told Scots prices would soar if we voted for independence,even bolting round to a supermarket to hold higher prices/no thanks signs up. I’m sure better together will be onto this as well as giving pensioners a big rise to help make ends meet.

    273. Capella says:

      Posted this before but didn’t show up so hope this isn’t a double post. RT has an article on Western funding of the White Helmets and their links to Islamic fundamentalists.

    274. cearc says:

      Interesting comment on trade from Korean Economist via,

      ‘What the UK needs to realise is that it doesn’t matter if you’re the 5th or 25th largest economy, as every country that’s not one of the ‘big 3′ has to apply the regulatory standards of these 3 markets… who together command more than 50% of world GDP…’

    275. geeo says:

      @glamaig @1010am.

      Good article from Kirsty Hughes, but that article missed out an opinion she had in June this year….

      Here is her missing opinion piece….enjoy.

      The simplest solution to that would be for Scotland to stay in the EU in some sort of transitional ‘holding pen’ – not having a seat in the Council of Ministers or MEPs in the European Parliament until its accession deal is ratified but not having to exit and re-join. This model has not been used before but the EU has plenty of experience of establishing provisional arrangements while accession member states wait for their accession treaties to be ratified”.

      Link to article.

      Scotland has four EU options – but which are realistic? | openDemocracy

    276. cearc says:


      I doubt that ‘the triple lock’ will survive next year’s inflation rise!

      bad for pensioners but good for campaigning!

    277. Meg merrilees says:

      O/T slightly…Petra @8.34pm and Nana

      re Nulear convoys and the news from Stirling:

      This is great news and comes as a direct result of the action taken by Brian Quail and Alasdair Ibbotson a few weeks ago when they flagged down a recent convoy passing around Stirling, highlighting the proximity of these dangerous convoys and the ease with which they can be stopped.

      Do the people of Stirling realise that they often park up these convoys overnight at the local barracks on the riverside in the centre of the town? Do the local Conservatives care? – it would seem not!

      Don’t forget, nuclear material is also travelling south, regularly, by train from the north of Scotland and recently the UK government started flights containing nuclear waste as well – a triple whammy!

      Couldn’t agree more Petra that ALL councils in Scotland should pass a motion to ban these horrible things.

      Wonder if it will be discussed at conference.

      Valerie @7.37pm Tesco’s food supplies – have been thinking for a while that foodstuffs might begin to disappear but not for the most obvious reason of the falling pound – expect a run on petrol stations too.

      As a transplant patient, I’ve decided to try to build up a few months supply of the drugs I need as they are mostly produced in Switzerland/Germany etc. and who knows what’s going to happen next with Brexit!

    278. DerekM says:

      lol Marcus must have sneaked into gestapo BBC HQ in disguise they must have thought he was the talking head expert they usually get on to agree with them about how bad everybody is except good old blighty.

      Seen him on RT a few times on crosstalk man talks a lot of sense.

    279. Tam Jardine says:

      Chic Mcgregor

      That is some great work Chic- needs put up as a post in graphic form.

      I’m interested in hardwood and Scotland has unfortunately been pillaged down the years- we should really be producing much more hardwood than we do. The French have a real culture of sustainable hardwood production in some areas and the destruction of native forests and proliferation of softwood is pretty grim.

      I’ve never considered wood in terms of litres (having never successfully drunk any). In flooring everything is square metres and I would struggle to recall a single sqm of hardwood flooring I sold made in Scotland.

      We used to have the Stoddart factory producing carpet and still have some lino (formerly Nairn, now Swiss owned)… Anta make some nice stuff but yoons unfortunately. Some underlay produced in the old Uniroyal in Dumfries but that is gone now.

      Any other country in the world would have its chest puffed out, shoving flags on everything but we just get the managed decline mindset. We can’t even build the largest cable-stay bridge in the world without clowns in the media saying- aye- but its running behind schedule.

      Anyway- thanks Chic- I always enjoy your posts and appreciate the work you’ve put in. SNP should base their next ppb on it… you make the case in one post.

    280. Stoker says:

      Stirling councillors pass motion against nuclear weapons convoys:

      One small step from Stirling, one giant step for the human race!

    281. Dr Jim says:

      Emily Maitlis asks russian news presenter if Putin is afraid of Britain
      Russian news presenter says “That’s a very British question but no” then bursts out laughing

      So the Russians not deterred by our big billions of pounds deterrent then when it cannae even deter a news reader from the giggles at Britains “Mightyness”

    282. Tam Jardine says:

      Re the Commons today- I watched the smug tories with their lazy Scottish Questions routine- it would make a good ppb.

      “Would Mundell agree that we should be helping some industry I care not one jot for, I care less than zero about so I can insist that the Scottish Government should stop banging on about independence….

      Of course I agree that the thing you couldn’t give a shit about is vital and THEY should concentrate on the day job.”

      This is when I want to be an MP and fall on the enemy like an avenging angel. No sense of irony that by trying to score pathetic political points these arseholes are not serving their constituents and are wasting time that could be spent actually addressing issues that matter to Scotland.

      It is really a joke and a bad one at that. Scottish Questions- our time in the Commons reserved to deal with our issues and it is simply a Yoon vehicle.

      I like the idea of an even greater repeal bill to repeal the act of union on the day article 50 is initiated.

    283. heedtracker says:

      There’s even a EU guido and just as much toryboy fun as the UK one. He’s not the biggest toryboy roaster online though, not by a long shot.

    284. mike cassidy says:

      Just been looking at that man, DrMarcusP’s twitter feed.

      I think its about time he and Putin just got a room.

    285. G4jeepers says:

      Tell you what really gets up a conservatives nose

      Deardrie Brock tries to snap poor Andrew Selous out of it but alas.
      A rare glimpse into the mindset of a tory when he can’t do anything to put folk orf his laaand.

      I’m starting to think them Gypsies and Travellers have the right idea 😀
      Scots should be more like them and just not give a fkuc.

    286. Tam Jardine says:

      Dr Jim

      They become Scottish assets on Indy- they are in our territory. I would sell them back or sell them on. How is this different from any other asset? We don’t get a piece of Portsmouth, or the Euro tunnel? Or do we?

    287. Valerie says:

      Re Marcus Papadopulous of Politics First.

      I had a wee nosy around. He is a 1st Dan in karate, and a sensei? Big on Animal Rights too.

      Checked his Twitter, and lots complimenting him, and saying surprised to see him on BBC.

      I do find it very odd. Unless BBC want to get out from under an approaching shitstorm on Syria? You wonder if the West and the UK are about to be rumbled.

      Bojo and his diplomatic incident. The UK has no room to laugh at Trump, when we have our own clowns, ready to spark war with Russia. I don’t know how he can remain in that job.

    288. Meg merrilees says:

      Stoker @11.39pm

      Thanks for archiving the page from Stirling news re the motion on nuclear convoys.

      There’s an article on the Stirling News page re their recent poll for independence ( now closed, Sep 29th, 2016). For fun I clicked on it and their result was YES 92%, No 8%.!!!

      Now that would send a message south!

    289. Still Positive. says:

      msean @11.00 and cearc @ 11.15

      Agree there will be no triple lock – Tories already said that.

      What worries me is that public sector pensions will not be index-linked as was promised.

      And at the rate they already hide inflation, how far will that go?

      I have a civil service widow’s pension which is supposedly index-linked and a small teacher’s pension from SPPA which is, I think, fully devolved so I am hoping the SG will index-link it fully if they can. But that is not certain.

    290. Sandy says:

      There was some Anglophobe bloke on telly tonight, after the 10 O’clock news, with “rent-a-gob”, second choice slab, Lewis MacDonald, stating that the UK was the fastest growing economy in Europe. What about Ireland, Iceland,etc. If this is true, which I doubt, I can only conclude that it must have been in a hell of a state prior to this & that he real figures were not published. Last whisky export figures come to mind, Scotland exported circa £5m, England exported £3.5b.
      Land of make-believe!! Eh, what?

    291. lenny hartley says:

      Yesindyref 2 the only time I think that a service to Troon would be appreciated is when the Open is being held there. When I was a lad we used to go to Fairlie in the winter, it took about 1 hours ten minutes but you had a brilliant (If you were a kid) train ride in a long tunnel to look forward too. there was a mini referendum on Arran whether it should be Ardrossan or Fairlie and the choice was Ardrossan, I don’t see anything changing 30 minutes or more added to each sailing would not be welcomed.

      Troon are obviously trying to get a piece of the action after the Irish service ceased, they have a better chance getting that service started again!

    292. ScottishPsyche says:

      @Val I agree.

      It’s very strange but I feel we are watching what is going on in the UK from the outside. The HoC seem to be talking to themselves and a few hacks – it is as if the game’s a bogey and no one will admit it.

      When, as a young Trot, Alistair Darling was shouting about tins of soup I don’t suppose he envisaged it would apply to Brexit. So when do we start stockpiling?

    293. G4jeepers says:

      Craig Murray’s map looks odd, has England shrunk or is Scotland getting bigger?

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      SNP Conference nearly taking over Parliament channel (504) from 5.30 pm, + on BBC at 2.30pm on Saturday, Sturgeon keynote speech.

      @lenny hartley
      Yes, it’s a bot of a daft idea, but I guess we can’t blame british ports from trying.

    295. call me dave says:

      New poll suggests hard Brexit not a game changer for SNP

      🙂 Aye right!

    296. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      I particualrly like this bit: “The BMG survey found even a “hard Brexit” casting Scotland out of the single market would sway only 12 per cent of people currently against having another referendum, leaving the country evenly divided on the issue.

      ONLY 12 per cent!

      I’d like to nominate the Herald and Tom Gordon in particular, for Internet Humour of the Year Award.

      Nice try Tom, the last gasp of the Union!

    297. yesindyref2 says:

      @call me dave
      Conservative Party Conference – 2nd October – 5th October 2016

      From the Herald and the BMG poll “BMG surveyed 1,010 Scottish adults online between September 29 and October 3”

      Basically speaking, before the worst of the diabolical toxic xenophobic bits with the Tories doing a UKIP. I do wonder what another poll would show now?

      Once BMG factored in the response to the follow-up Brexit question, 43 per cent backed a second referendum, 42 per cent were against”

      That’s a majority for a referendum and after the Tories, I’d guess even more.

    298. Vambomarbeleye says:

      OT and no apology.
      It’s 50 years since Aberfan. Some I hope on this site would not have been born then. So here is a wee link. It happened under a labour goverment and the NCB. It was a tragedy that should have never of happened.

    299. Dr Jim says:

      When you add up all the Heralds percents sgainst everything you always seem to end up with more Herald percents than actual people

      They sure do love their percents

      As long as it’s a “Blow for Sturgeon” or a “Crash” or if she’s “Slammed” and they do favour the “Sturgeon warned” quite a lot

      You can tell by the new PPB she’s shit scared
      it’s the big smile at the end, written all over her face “Panic for Sturgeon”

      Uh Huh!

    300. Petra says:

      @ Chic McGregor says at 10:22 pm …. ”Soon after indyref1 it occurred to me that the message of Scotland’s real worth and consequently the cost to the UK of Scotland leaving, did not really come across during the campaign. To be fair, it isn’t easy to get messages over when you have to talk in billions, or terrawatts or millions of cubic feet etc. Number blindness kicks in. To try to counteract this, I decided to take the approach of dealing in smaller numbers and preferably in units which made the most sense, i.e. were the most familiar, to the Scot in the street.” …..

      Great work Chic and yes we have to keep it simple. As a team we’ll get there!


      @ Meg merrilees says at 11:17 pm …. ”Nuclear Convoys”.

      Fantastic news about Stirling Council passing a motion against the nuclear weapons convoys Meg. What we need now is for the the other Councils to step up. Get it on record that they are not welcome here. Each Council should also be informing its constituents of the dangers, such as

      ”do the people of Stirling realise that they often park up these convoys overnight at the local barracks on the riverside in the centre of the town?

      I had no idea about that Meg, but I’m sure potential terrorists will.

      ”Don’t forget, nuclear material is also travelling south, regularly, by train from the north of Scotland and recently the UK government started flights containing nuclear waste as well – a triple whammy!”

      I can’t tell you how much this annoys me. Scotland valued and an equal in the Union. Aye right.

      More than anything with the way things are going Putin knows exactly where one of the three Nuclear bases in the West (US, France and Scotlandshire) is situated too.


      I see that over and above Putin cancelling his visit to France he’s now sent out a message for all Russians studying / working in the West to return to the “Fatherland”: That includes the elderly.

      By God if this turns ‘nasty’ hell mend the lying, war-mongering politicians and their media sheeples.

      Biggest News Story Of The Year! And you’ve never heard about it. Until Now.

    301. Petra says:

      @ Chic McGregor says at 10:22 pm …. ”Soon after indyref1 it occurred to me that the message of Scotland’s real worth and consequently the cost to the UK of Scotland leaving, did not really come across during the campaign. To be fair, it isn’t easy to get messages over when you have to talk in billions, or terrawatts or millions of cubic feet etc. Number blindness kicks in. To try to counteract this, I decided to take the approach of dealing in smaller numbers and preferably in units which made the most sense, i.e. were the most familiar, to the Scot in the street.” …..

      Great work Chic and yes we have to keep it simple. As a team we’ll get there!


      @ Meg merrilees says at 11:17 pm …. ”Nuclear Convoys”.

      Fantastic news about Stirling Council passing a motion against the nuclear weapons convoys Meg. What we need now is for the the other Councils to step up. Get it on record that they are not welcome here. Each Council should also be informing its constituents of the dangers, such as

      ”do the people of Stirling realise that they often park up these convoys overnight at the local barracks on the riverside in the centre of the town?

      I had no idea about that Meg, but I’m sure potential terrorists will.

      ”Don’t forget, nuclear material is also travelling south, regularly, by train from the north of Scotland and recently the UK government started flights containing nuclear waste as well – a triple whammy!”

      I can’t tell you how much this annoys me. Scotland valued and an equal in the Union. Aye right.

      More than anything with the way things are going Putin knows exactly where one of the three Nuclear bases in the West (US, France and Scotlandshire) is situated too.


      I see that over and above Putin cancelling his visit to France he’s now sent out a message for all Russians studying / working in the West to return to the “Fatherland”: That includes the elderly.

      By God if this turns ‘nasty’ hell mend the lying, war-mongering politicians and their media sheeples.

      Biggest News Story Of The Year! And you’ve never heard about it. Until Now.

    302. yesindyref2 says:

      Good grief, the Herald’s published page is even worse:

      Brexit sways only one in 10 to back independence poll

      So 12% = 1 in 10, not 1 in 8 or even 1 in 7 (13% didn’t know).

      Unlike desperate Unionists we can do maths. And hopefully in Indy Scotland the maths skills of unionist journalists will be vastly improved!

    303. Stoker says:

      Meg merrilees on 13 October, 2016 at 12:05 am

      No problem Meg! The story is very important to me, not only because i’m against any form of WMD’ i am a former resident of the city’s Riverside district and i would pass the local “barracks” (transport depot) 3 times per week on my walk to the swim & gym. Stirling holds fond memories for me. Nice to see them trying to lead by example.

      You said in your comment:
      “There’s an article on the Stirling News page re their recent poll for independence ( now closed, Sep 29th, 2016). For fun I clicked on it and their result was YES 92%, No 8%.”

      Sigh! If only that would repeat itself throughout Scotland when it truly matters. Oh the joy! And with that happy thought i’m off to my hammock to the sound of the Everly Brothers swirling round my cranial darkness – All i have to do is dream, dream, dream….

    304. Petra says:

      I’ve had problems trying to post on this site today / tonight. Trying to figure out why! I even tried posting the list that you wanted Glamaig on the the last article. It doesn’t seem to be there either.

      REAL shortened version of my last post on here. Following cancelling his meeting in France Putin is calling for all Russians to return home. Make of that what you will.

    305. Petra says:

      ‘Biggest News Story Of The Year! And you’ve never heard about it. Until Now.’

    306. yesindyref2 says:

      If that’s what the Herald is like even before the SNP Conference starts later, I’m desperate to see what its front page is on Friday. Here’s my guess:

      “Forces of Darkness take over the SECC in Glasgow”.

      Today the SNP Conference started, and the Sturgeonator took over with the aid of her massed ranks of dark sycophants. Ruth Davidson went valiantly with the aid of all the Conservative MSPs in Scotland to take it back for the nation, bearing a Union Jack in her outstretched hand. They were a little later than planned as they took directions from a smirking YES supporter, one of many out and about as usual. In fact they went via London before they got instructions, never mind that.

      But in a twist in the tale as a sneekyboy sub-editor changed the usual nonsense to something resembling the truth, out strode Sturgeon, with fire in her eyes, and an elvish referendum in her right hand, glowing brightly as it detected the presence of a small number of Orcs. As she confronted Davidson’s bedraggled and confused group, the newly elected SNP depute leader revealed himself dressed in white, strode to the footbridge over the Clyde and confronted the massed ranks of remaining Conservative voters in Scotland after the toxic xenophobic performance of last week, who had been told they were coming for a free British Bake off starring Neil Oliver and his buns.

      “Ye Shall Not Pass” the depute said in a firm voice, as he smote the Saltire flagpole in the centre of the bridge. The band of 20 looked at each other in disgust, and shambled off back to get the clockwork orange back to Queen Street. “It’ll be standing room only” they complained. “Where’s my cake?”.

      Sturgeon advanced on the motley crew and they took to their heels taking many of the reporters with them, dropping pre-written press releases as they went.

    307. yesindyref2 says:

      Express and Mail ramping up the distractions “we must all get behind Britain in our desperate hour of need and build sandcastles”, that sort of thing perhaps.

      BBC has nothing like that, and Guardian has “An unexpected round of multilateral talks on the future of Syria is to start on Saturday involving initially Russia, the US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and possibly Qatar, the Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has said. The talks will be held in Lausanne, Switzerland.”


    308. Petra says:

      Looks as though he’s pulled out of the French meeting due to comments made by Hollande. Let’s hope the talks in Lausanne lead to defusion of the current situation. For starters NATO should back off.

      Did you take a look at the last video I posted? Putin trying to let the West know what’s going on but his warnings are being blocked by the media.

      Love your Herald article. Ha, ha! Too bad you’re not writing for them.

    309. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 …. ”Sturgeon advanced on the motley crew and they took to their heels taking many of the reporters with them, dropping pre-written press releases as they went.”

      I was hoping it was going to end with them all throwing themselves in the Clyde, yesindyref2: Floating along clinging to the poles of their drookit Union Jacks.

      Brilliant. Looking forward to chapter two to find out what happened next. Better still when we get to the last chapter and find out how they all reacted on Independence Day.

    310. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 2.52
      Noticed that your last link was from info war’s.
      Just wondered if you have come across ….What really
      It’s another alternative news site ,it’s more focused on international events.
      Also a bit less hysterical if you know what I mean.
      The broadcaster is apparently ex Hollywood special effects designer, (did the work on The Day After Tomorrow) anyhoo he does report on how we are being fooled in to believing Putin is the bad guy here.
      Has an agendas like all the rest but dose put up some interesting stuff we don’t normally hear about.

    311. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 3.06
      Ah can tell ye whit happend next.

      Sturgeon looked around at the Yesers,and without her having to say a word.
      All the Satire’s were quickly knotted together,all the Scot’s were pulled out of the river,and helped to the bank.
      Where upon the yessers crouched down looked them in the eye and enquired gently….SHESSH to which the rescued Scot’s replied with the word they suddenly realised all along they needed to say……..YES……
      They partied long and hard!!!!

    312. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra @Liz g
      Wow, the two of you read my mind! I like that ending, it’s what we’ll need to do 🙂

      Re the Russian thing, the biggest problem is that the West is dumb and doesn’t know how to play the game, whereas Russia does. It’s supposed to be all public threats and flounces, pouts and shouts, expelling diplomats / recalling them and their families, while the leaders are sat in a cafe having a cup of tea / coffee / vodka, blethering about the weather and the price of caviar and jeans.

      Ah well, maybe Putin will send them the instruction manual. It’ll have to be translated into dumb.

    313. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 4am
      If it’s ment for Westminster I doubt Even the Russians could write anything that dumb.
      I mean there wouldn’t be any instructions on how to dress funny,curtsy or bray.
      They would be so confused!!

    314. Naina Tal says:

      Unilever want to increase prices by 10%. Tesco say “No Yiz can dae wioot yer Marmite an’ yer Persil.”
      I can imagine lots o’ companies wi heed offices in ither countries will want tae pit up thir prices tae maintain profits wi the pound plummetin’ like it is.
      Oanybody think they’ll likewise increase the salaries o’ UK workers because the pound in their pocket has dropped? Or will they jist see that as an added bonus?
      (Rhetorical question!)

    315. Petra says:

      @ Liz g says at 3:18 am …. ”Noticed that your last link was from info war’s. Just wondered if you have come across ….What really It’s another alternative news site, it’s more focused on international events. Also a bit less hysterical if you know what I mean.”

      I’ve checked it out before Liz (WRH) but I’m not too keen on it as a site / or Rivero and find they go on a bit too much about US gossip / trivia …. jumps about too much. A bit too ‘hysterical’ / manic for me, lol.

      I chose that particular video because it focuses on ONE issue only and that is that the US / Nato has Putin’s back to the wall, he’s been trying to warn the West about what’s going on with great difficulty as the media is intent on hiding the truth from the plebs. In line with what Pilger tries to get across.

      @ Yesindyref2 says at 4:00 am …. ”Re the Russian thing, the biggest problem is that the West is dumb”…..

      Right on Yesindyref2. Dumb enough to drag us into another World War. Westminster keeps bleating on about needing Nuclear weapons to protect us from North Korea et al when in actual fact their actions are potentially putting us, Scotland, in the firing line.

    316. Nana says:



      Scotland’s Sturgeon seeks to unite opposition to ‘hard Brexit’

      Don’t remember if I posted this before now – Blueprint for a Scottish national investment bank

    317. Nana says:



      British economy losing steam as business investment wilts, surveys show

    318. Nana says:




      Unable to archive

    319. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      Good links, as always. Thanks 🙂


      The interesting aspect of this, by NS herself, is that her original five ‘red lines’ are referred to.

      I, and others, feared the SNP were lowering their demands because polls show that IndyRef might fail. But no, NS repeats the demands and talks tough ahead of conference.

      I could never see how those red lines could be met with anything other than full EU membership, still don’t. Especially No5 – having influence on the single market rules.

    320. Breeks says:

      With regards Brexit timing… I hope we are not mismatching our brinkmanship. Once we are on the brink of Brexit, only Independence, not a referendum will suffice.

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that. From that article actually by Sturgeon on :

      In the aftermath of the June referendum, I laid out five key interests that must be protected during the Brexit proceedings: our democratic interests, our economic interests, social protection, solidarity and our ability to influence and shape the rules of the single market.

      Good, she’s reaffirmed those 5 key interests (demands). Because since there’s no way the last one can be met without actually being in the EU, that always being the non-achievable trap she set last June/July (I laughed at the time), guess what that means for Indy ref 2!

    322. yesindyref2 says:

      You beat me to it by 4 minutes – time to boil an egg!

    323. galamcennalath says:


      Either Wingers are developing Groupthink, or we are simply on the right track!

    324. Macart says:


      Heh. Watch this space.

      May was big on pronouncements at the Conservative conference. Just a feeling like, but I reckon the FM may be set to fire one last shot across WMs bow in her speech this weekend.

      Prime the electorate as it were.

      Ducks just about all lined up. 🙂

    325. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Either Wingers are developing Groupthink, or we are simply on the right track!”

      No, it’s because youse are aw brainwashed, soanyeurr (as I was told so often in 2014).

      Or maybe K1’s installed some more of those cybersep chips.

      I love Boris telling the Russians they risk becoming a pariah state. At least England’s well ahead of them in that regard.

      Ooh, where’s me Marmite?

    326. yesindyref2 says:

      Both I think!

      When I saw the 5th key interest in this Herald article I was laughing so hard it was difficult to post – and not to let the cat out of the bag as the ScotGov were still “exploring all options”. Meanwhile getting previous NOes to an undecided state.

      “And our interest in having influence – making sure that we don’t just have to abide by the rules of the single market but also have a say in shaping them.”

      There’s only one way of doing that – actually being IN the EU, the European Council, the Council and the EU Parliament, and having a vote, not just being a member of the single market.

    327. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      @ Nana says at 7:32 am ….


      ‘Reuters has obtained emails and other records connected with US involvement in the Saudi-led war on Yemen. One of these emails made a specific reference to a ruling in 2013 from the war crimes trial of ex-Liberian president Charles Taylor. The ruling widened the international definition of aiding and abetting war crimes to include “practical assistance, encouragement or moral support”.

      These legal considerations are even more relevant to the UK than to the US because Britain (unlike the US) is fully signed up to the Rome Statute, the treaty which set up the International Criminal Court (ICC) to investigate crimes under international law.

      This means that ministers could be individually liable before an appropriate international criminal tribunal (for instance the ICC) for war crimes …..

      However, unless he (Boris Johnston) dramatically changes British policy, he like Ellwood risks making himself personally liable to prosecution for giving “practical assistance, encouragement or moral support” to the Saudi killing machine in Yemen.’

      Can anyone ever see that happen in the UK? Blair, Straw, Brown and Cameron et al have managed to create absolute misery and mayhem leading to millions of deaths and nothing seems to be getting done about it: that is unless something is happening behind the scenes. Destabilised every country in Europe but are still waltzing around Scot-free raking in the money.


      Looks as though the Brexit / UK border isn’t going down too well in Ireland and I just love some of the comments on there such as this one:

      ”If Ireland did take control of UK border we could just spend 2 years waving EVERYBODY through: “that’s for the Famine, yiz bastards!”



      ‘Norwegian energy minister mocks Hinkley Point decision.’

      “It will provide 7 per cent of the UK’s power in a non-intermittent and low carbon manner with secure baseload- the risks for the project will be entirely borne by the developers, ensuring protection for consumer and taxpayer in case of cost overrun.”

      This is what happens when you find yourself between a Brexit rock and a hard place. Hinkley Point previously described by Theresa May as a ”threat to National security” is going ahead at great expense, to provide 7% of the UK’s power, to ensure that she gets further contracts from China. Just as she’ll bend over backwards for Hillary when she takes over …. Hillary another ‘threat to National (World) Security.’

    328. Robert Louis says:

      Well, well, I see the so-called ‘Scottish’ media is in full flow trying to convince everybody that ‘you know, actually brexit hasn’t increased the desire for independence’, and ‘you know, actually, their isn’t really a desire for independence’, and you know, ‘Nicola Sturgeon will have to tread carefully when announcing their will be NO indyref2 at conference’, and on and on and on it goes.

      The so-called ‘Scottish media, lying to the people of Scotland for their London Masters, as usual.

      In addition, in England, the media are now pushing the ‘oh, people who oppose Brexit are just grieving’ spin. No, they’re NOT grieving, they are just rightly p***ed off that an unelected, rabid, extreme right wing Prime minister is day by day trashing the entire UK economy, destroying livelihoods, watching blissfully as the Pound crashes, and generally stirring up racism, hatred, division, xenophobia and generally p*ssing on the poor and disabled.

      They’re not grieving, they’re bl***y furious.

    329. DerekM says:

      What the west will not tell you is that the spanking brand new Russian S-500 anti ICBM missile systems came online this week so much for not being ready until 2020.

      The Americans just went gulp as these babies can shoot down everything in the US arsenal including their stealth technology and satellites.

      So basically we are buying a missile system that is already outdated and has more chance of killing all us than any Russians.

      Lets get rid of Trident and all nuke material before we get a close look at one of the Russian Tuplov-M`s in action.

    330. Wee Alex says:

      @call me dave
      I particularly like this bit: “The BMG survey found even a “hard Brexit” casting Scotland out of the single market would sway only 12 per cent of people currently against having another referendum, leaving the country evenly divided on the issue. ”


      12% of 55% no = 6.6%

      55 less 6.6 = 48.4% remaining no.

      I appreciate its not that simple, but surely even a Herald reporter can see the tide is turning


    331. Flower of Scotland says:

      Thanks for the link to the SNP conference. I knew someone would post it on Wings.

      First place to go for up to date information!

    332. harry mcaye says:

      No copies of The National today in Sainsbury, Hamilton. Went right round the stand twice, checking that they hadn’t been hidden under other papers. If they had, the person did a great job. So I took my custom elsewhere. In Hamilton there is a Morrison just behind the Sainsbury so it’s not exactly a big effort.

      Last week Sainsbury had their excellent “Disgusting, Xenophobic, Repellent” cover hidden round at the back of the display so that it didn’t greet shoppers as they walked in. I’m sure it was quite deliberate. Instead we had major sellers Golf Today and some Racing paper in the prominent positions. The National is rarely given prominence.

    333. gus1940 says:

      Looking at today’s TV schedules can see no mention of coverage of The SNP Conference.

      Given that for the other parties’ conferences we were treated to daily live coverage together with evening summary programs.

      How can this omission be justified?

      Obviously our wonderful broadcasters will report proceedings on their news bulletins and on the normal late night political programs But these will be subject to the sort of editing to which we are accustomed along with the usual unbalanced selection of talking heads in the studio.

      No doubt there will be some live conference coverage as we near the weekend but is it too much to expect us to be given the same depth of coverage as was given to the other parties?

    334. Chic McGregor says:

      Thanks Tam 11:23 pm

      On Russia. Silver lining Brexit has is that a much needed new Ostpolitik initiative for rEU becomes a lot more likely with the UK/rUK’s absence.

      Provided. of course, that does not instigate an Anglo-American suicide pact.

      The crisis facing democracy, as structured, is how to prevent the criminally psychotic from rising to positions of power in the unholy alliance of politics, business corporations and the mainstream media.

      If a way is not found to deal with this, sooner or later they will destroy the World.

    335. louis.b.argyll says:

      BBC RADIO (REPORTING THE OTHER) SCOTLAND, contrary to public opinion.

    336. louis.b.argyll says:

      No Scottish football, politics, unless they are pre-edited by UK ruling broadcasters.

      Second class status is fine for some, those a low level of self esteem.

    337. Fireproofjim says:

      Alex Salmond on Sky news over the next half hour

    338. call me dave says:

      Radio Scotland don’t like Marmite or Sturgeon on the menu with their shortbread. Not to their taste.

      Thanks for link Nana.

    339. Ken500 says:

      Thanks for the links Nanna. Brilliant.

      The dope on the rope insulting Russia, trying to divert from the mess of Brexit. The Tiries are trying to destroy the world economy. So they and their associates can tax evade and plunder £Billions of public money. Wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point and HS2. Trident will be going on Brexit. The US do not want it here. McMillan secretly and illegally dumped it on Scotland. Obsolete and a total waste of money.

      The Oil rigs are being decommission because they are forty years old. The structures are finished. Not because there is no Oil. Even if the price was high they would still need replacement. The helicopters are old and need replacing. UK Health & Safety Laws have been broken by Helicopter firms. 4 helicopter falling from the sky in five years. No Inquiry. Robert Goodwill UK Transport Minister refused an Inquiry. The Helicopter firm owners sold up two years later for £250Million.

      Osbourne tried to ruin the Oil industry, losing thousands of jobs. Deliberately because of Independence? Or ignorantly and incompetent. Osbourne increased the tax 11% (£2Billion) to 80% in the 2011 Budget. Danny Alexander laughed about it. The Oil Companies cut exploration and stopped future production projects, because of the indecision. Osborne cut it to 60% when the price had fallen 75%. It is now 40% from Jan 2016. Untaxed fracked Fas from the US is being imported into the UK. Scotland could have had nearly full employment. Less welfare benefit payments. Scotland would be in surplus with self governance/Independence.

      New structures are being developed to process production, Giant moveable barges. Scotland should be involved in manufacture and decommissioning. There are plans to expand harbour facilities.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote YES for Independence.

      The Tories are ruining the world economy. Trying to start more conflict and war. They have caused the migrant crisis in Europe. The UK, France and the US have been bombing the Middle East for years and taking the resources. Supporting absolute, despot monarchies and apartheid States. States whose policies would never be acceptable in the UK, France or the US. They want to walk away and not help to resolve the crisis or take any refugees. 2million spread over 500Million would be totally feasible if all EU members took a proportion. Migration is not the problem in the UK. Westminster policies are the problem. The migration figures were fiddled by May. The foreign student figures were included and over estimated. Brits who took EU countries citizenship to pay less tax were not included but underestimated.

      The Tories are an absolute disgrace. Thatcher ruined the UK economy. Left over 3 million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. Sold off utilities. Now owned by foreign State companies. Thatcher demutualised the Building Societies owned by their members. Thatcher deregulated banking. Took reserves from 25% to 13%. Destroying banking and the world economy. Labour – illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Cameron the worst PM in history.

    340. theMadMurph says:


      I’m stuck in work and can’t get to the conference today, or tomorrow by the looks of things!

      The link above for the conference doesn’t seem to be working for me.

      Is anyone else having problems? Any other feeds available?

    341. theMadMurph says:

      ignore that. It’s working now!!

      I was just a little early!

    342. gordoz says:

      SNP conf link working now!!!!

    343. Nana says:


      It’s working fine, check it now

    344. Leslie Wilson says:

      gus1940 says:

      Gus it is on BBC Parliament tv, channel on sky 504.
      Starts 5.30pm. Also on tomorrow and Sat. Looks like full coverage.

    345. gordoz says:

      And the new SNP Deputy is …………

      Angus Robertson !

    346. Robert Louis says:

      Excellent news about Angus. He IS the man for the job. Credibility, experience, ability in bucketfuls, and very capable at handling the hostile UK media. Congratulations to him.

      Apparently the SNP conference is the largest party conference in the UK. That’ll get thon moronic racist writer at the express goin.

    347. Petra says:

      The Express is giving it laldy today……

      ‘Scotland’s public spending deficit HIGHEST in EU beating Greece to clinch badge of shame.’

      ‘The research, carried out by the TaxPayers’ Alliance, reveals that the Scottish deficit, at 9.5 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP), is twice that of the UK.

      And the pressure group said an independent Scotland would have to carry out drastic measures to balance its books including cutting all spending on police, transport, and agriculture, increase basic rate income tax to 39 per cent and double VAT to 40 per cent.

      In addition, health spending would also have to be cut by 82 per cent.

      The TaxPayers’ Alliance said Scotland’s overspending is such a chronic problem that the issue needs tackling irrespective of the independence question, as the country ran up a fiscal deficit of £14.8bn in 2015-16.’ etc etc


      ‘Sturgeon to face humiliating REVOLT as SNP members agree to speak at ‘rival conference.’

      ‘Robin McAlpine, a prominent independence campaigner who set up the rival event, criticised controlling Sturgeon.

      He said it was not “hard to hear the early signs of some real dissent inside the SNP”, claiming the party is split on how to deliver independence.

      He added: “If you want to hear commercial lobbyist propaganda and party self congratulation, you’ll be well served by the main conference.’ etc, etc


      ‘Sturgeon holds ‘secret independence talks’ – and masterplan involves her ‘STEPPING DOWN.’

      ‘A source told the Express: “The plan then is for Sturgeon to resign as First Minister in the knowledge that neither Ruth Davidson or Kezia Dugdale could replace her.

      “After 28 days of no government there will have to be an election and the SNP will make it into a single issue of holding an independence referendum.”

      Sounds like a good idea to me. I hope Nicola takes it on board. Can you imagine the furore in Scotland if Tory Davidson had to take over?


      Glamaig I’ve been having real problems trying to post the list. I decided to try and post it on the last article, by splitting it up, and have now managed to post around half of it. I’m still having trouble posting the last 35 points. Will try again later.

      I’ve been having problems with some posts disappearing into the ether in general, such as trying to respond to Chic and Meg. Anyway, in brief now, well done Chic for putting in the hard work and thanks Meg for highlighting Nuclear convoy parking practices which I had no idea of.

    348. yesindyref2 says:

      Angus Robertson, yay! Shame for the other three all the same. But it needs the steady disciplined hand at this time, rather than straying off the road chasing reforms to the party. It’s Indy time.

    349. yesindyref2 says:

      Robin McAlpine – doesn’t want an Indy Ref until about 2022 or something. I missed his speech at Glasgow Green, but some were a bit hacked off at him for that. Still, it’s good that YES2 has diversity of views, it was a bit too conglomerated last time. This time we’ll have SNP, Greens, RIC, all with a different vision for Indy Scotland. Come the Ref it’ll be all for one, and one for all!

      I’m looking for some pleasant surprises to come out of this conference 🙂

    350. Valerie says:

      Pleased for Angus, he is incredibly able. I voted for Alyn, but I hope he will.go up in the party in the future.

      Just so you know, Angus does have a media strategy, which he shared at a hustings – relentlessly positive.

      He has been responsible for successful campaigns, but he is not going to come out guns blazing, as many often wish!

      Just saying.

    351. One_Scot says:

      That’s it, game F’ing on.

    352. Robert Louis says:


      Like yourself I like Alyn too, so voted him in 2nd place. I think Angus and Alyn were the two strongest contenders.

    353. Nana says:

      Go Nicola!! Game on

    354. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola says IndyRef2 will be before the UK leaves the EU if the form of Brexit is not in Scotland’s interests.

      It won’t be is Scotland’s interests, that seems certaiin!

    355. One_Scot says:

      I’m no expert on the psychology of body language, but I would say Nicola means business.

    356. Clydebuilt says:

      Petra @2.02 am. Trouble Posting

      Every time I post I get the message , “Posting Too Quickly” ….. As if I had just posted a previous comment, when I haven’t ……. I go back, the post hasn’t appeared on web page, so I send again ….. This time no complaint message, and my post gets uploaded to wings…… What’s going on?

    357. mike cassidy says:

      Essential reading for the Putin followers on this site.

      I’ve archived each page for convenience.

      Page 1

      Page 2

      Page 3

      Page 4

    358. Clydebuilt says:

      Guess what….posted first time no problem……. First time in ages

    359. Nana says:

      Here’s Nicola’s speech for anyone who missed it

    360. yesindyref2 says:

      I put Alyn 2nd. At a hustings his date for Indy Ref 2 was kind of like 2021 / 22. Angus was no date, but be ready.

      One of my things in Indy Ref 1 was Defence. It’s not the highest priority, but it’s the sort of thing people take for granted in the UK – including Scotland. The SNP were Partners for Peace in NATO, but there was a survey amongst members from 2011 showing marginal majority for NATO – full membership. Thing is being a full member of NATO and a budget of £2.5 billion got defence out of the way as an issue. Some silly talk still from unionists about pea-shooters or whtaver, but they were transparently stupid. iScotland would have Defence, and the means for it.

      What’s this got to do with Angus? In the course of my research I found he’d been asking Parliamentary questions about UK defence since at least 2011 and maybe before. The only reason for this unless about Trident, was that the SNP needed to learn more about defence for Indy, and he was quietly doing the job. Getting ready.

      So while many weren’t really even thinking about Indy except in vague terms, talking but not really doing, there was Angus, doing his stuff, quietly, calmly and effectively, behind the scenes.

    361. heedtracker says:

      It is massive. A lot of tory money pumped into this outfit very quickly too.

      Scotland in Union
      Sponsored ·
      A giant billboard poster was unveiled by Scotland in Union this morning outside the SNP party conference at the SECC in Glasgow.
      If you agree with our billboard then please register your support here: http://www.scotlandinunion

    362. yesindyref2 says:

      I wrote down about 4 this morning, my prediction of the vote. Angus 55%, Alyn 25%, Tommy 15%, Chris 5%. Wow, I’m good 🙂

      I’m so excited! Something tells me it’s all happening at the zoo. I do believe it, I do believe it’s true.

    363. harry mcaye says:

      Sky’s James Matthews just did a piece to camera from the conference. At the top right of the screen it said he was in Eddleston, Scotland. I’d never heard of it but was pretty certain it wasn’t a district of Glasgow. Just googled, it’s in the Borders. WTF?

    364. yesindyref2 says:

      Angus reported as depute in the Herald and just a handful of comments from soor-faced unionists. I couldn’t resist an “in your face” posting 🙂

      I’ll calm down now.

    365. Macart says:

      RE: Nicola’s speech?

      I just effing luv being right. 🙂

    366. Petra says:

      Congratulations to Angus. Commiserations to the others. I voted for Tommy (because he’s multit-talented) partly because I reckoned that a great deal of Angus’s time was being spent on being the leader at Westminster. If he can handle both jobs …. well done to him. If he can help us to get our Independence…. great.

      Just wondering, after watching the Conference, if Theresa May is aware now that Nicola means business?

    367. Breeks says:

      Haven’t seen Nicola’s speech, but I have read the text.

      Good rousing stuff, but I don’t believe that Europe will indulge in special arrangements for Scotland unless Scotland is a fully sovereign nation, or at worse, in a post Indyref situation with a Yes vote in the bag and independence on its way.

      What is more, I find it difficult to believe Nicola thinks otherwise, but it leaves me confused what the plan is.

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