Geese and ganders
Tory MSP Miles Briggs was yesterday cleared of sexual harassment claims by an internal Conservative Party inquiry process. We haven’t the slightest idea of what the facts of his specific case may or may not be, and as such express no view on it, but the nature of the process has been severely criticised by Rape Crisis Scotland, and with what in this instance appears to be extremely good reason.
An obvious question does rather leap to mind, though.
Many on social media contrasted the rather low-profile coverage of the case with the feeding frenzy that greeted similar allegations concerning Alex Salmond. But Salmond was accused under entirely different rules focused on government ministers. In fact the circumstances of the Briggs case are much more analogous to those of former SNP MSP Mark McDonald.
McDonald was reported to the Standards Committee of the Scottish Parliament, for a case which amounted to his mobile phone autocorrecting the word “dingied” to the word “fingered”.
For that crime – no other allegation of sexual misconduct against him was proven – he was the subject of page after page of absolutely excoriating media coverage over many weeks depicting him as something akin to Jack The Ripper, suspended from the SNP while the inquiry took place, and eventually kicked out, suspended temporarily from Parliament and banished to a basement office far from other MSPs.
He’s now invariably referred to as “shamed MSP Mark McDonald”, was ludicrously castigated by former colleagues as a risk to the safety of staff, and is widely expected to lose his seat at the next election.
We’re sure there must be a reason why Miles Briggs – a backbench MSP accused of sexual harassment, just like McDonald – hasn’t been subjected to the same procedure and treatment, and has been allowed to be dealt with by his own party via a process so obviously horrifying in its nature that it scared the complainant away – something which also happened this year with Labour’s Alex Rowley.
We’d quite like it if someone could tell us what it was, though.
I wonder if this will get … oh no, no coverage.
Its the system, its the mess, its the UK all over.
Although this doesn’t answer your question, it occurs to me that the Conservative Party (The Tories) appear to regard themselves as above the law, any law, and that the subject of sexual harassment does not apply to them.
Perhaps because they are BritNats and therefore not bound by the same scrutiny that other mortals have to abide to?
The McDonald case was an absolute scandal. I have said many times that the great Achilles heel of the SNP is their pathological mania to be perceived as “respectable” by an establishment and media who want to kill them just to see them fall, and whose hatred of them is predicated on their simple existence, not on anything they have or have not done. Nothing they can do will ever gain them a fair hearing in the media, so why in God’s name are they internalizing the absolute visceral hatred they face into every day and doing their enemies work for them?
C’ mon Stuart that doesn’t seem difficult to answer.
Because unionist voters, politicians,and entire media have an infinite capacity for hypocrisy and lies.
Next.
Just wondering, could the complainant just go to Police Scotland???
With someone in the media ie The National covering / monitoring the treatment she recieves.
I do get frustrated by the lack of support the SNP appears to give to party members and employees. Contrast the support given to the Civil Servants in the Alex Salmond case and the lack of support and party ownership of this researcher. Of course, due process (whatever that is in this case) must take place but it was Rape Crisis Scotland supporting this woman.
It’s as if when you get involved in a legal matter, no matter what your status, you get thrown under the bus like Michelle Thomson.
Double standards is what they do best.
BBC Radio Scotland at great pains yesterday to highlight that he had been cleared and that he had thanked the SNP staff for their assistance.
I don’t think they mentioned that this was an internal party inquiry, nor was there a “critics say” comment from Rape Crisis Scotland.
I have observed before, and pose it again; according to this man’s wiki profile, he is a nobody who ‘rose without trace'(attrib: John Major) to be second only to Ruth Davidson on the Tory List.
I can find nothing on his background, or any logical explanation as to why he was given such a Gold Ticket cert job in Davidson’s Party.
This ‘enquiry’ seems oddly dubious.
Any background notes on M Briggs?
The tiny story tab on the Sun website links to a Whoops there isn’t a story here search again page. Maybe they are gearing up to do a bigger story but why delete what they have already published? And it was way down the page hidden to the side too….go figure
It is a puzzle.
Are you certain of Mark McDonald’s “list” status? I heard that he had won the seat with the biggest majority in Scotland – Wikipedia says the same:
link to en.wikipedia.org
What? Are you serious Rev? How on earth could the Unionist media give Mr Briggs a hard time?
He’s a Tory for goodness sake. Best forgotten. A storm in a Unionist teacup
The equation is simplicity itself .Politician + Unionist= guaranteed immunity.
Politician+ Indy supporter= guaranteed persecution.
Rules aren’t for the elite (or those who believe themselves entitled to be), they are for the ‘little people’, the common folks. Some of the more feudally orientated Tories perhaps believe behaviour like Droit du Seigneur should still apply.
The world is benighted by prejudice and discrimination. Don’t believe anyone who tries to tell you we live in post-racist and post-sexist times. This is the future that Scots can look forward to, subjugation as second class subjects of an English elite.
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I expect he has friends in Establishment places which is how he got where he is and why he is being protected so assiduously.
Note jobs are always for the boys. Though a male myself being raised with 3 sisters (2 older) and having two bolshie daughters I am a thorough feminist. I must get myself the t-shirt.
it ‘s bloody ludicrous and just underlines our utterly disgusting media.
I wish them all a day of judgement.
The person in-question is obviously some class of protected spook.
I don’t know about anyone else but I’ve just about had enough of this. Grrrr! Pulling my hair out now. Enough of British Nationalist politicians just taking it for granted that they can say and do what they like. Add to that Scotland being lumbered with the dregs of the World’s journalists: Blatantly biased and twisted as a corkscrew.
Well it won’t be too long now folks until the Scots have control over their own Parliament, housing politicians that serve us, not vice versa. Ridding ourselves of racists, misogynists, sectarian bigots, perverts and skivvers. Then we’ll set up our own version of IPSO and have a massive clearout of our propagandists. Post Independence I can see a large number of politicians and journalists signing up for their JSA.
……………………..
Do you reckon that Labour will win the next GE taking into account that they’re proposing another in/out EURef? They’ll no doubt lose support in England, so may not win at all, but it could lead to us losing SNP seats. If this comes to pass (in/out EU Ref), I think we should just ditch the idea of using a GE as a route to Independence.
Ruth Davidson is content with the judgement and is now focused on becoming FM. Of course the only prospect of this is if she is supported by Labour. Is there anywhere in Scotland that Labour are enabling a Tory as being say a council leader. Surely not, it would be against their principles wouldn’t it?
It makes me want to vomit how the media especially the bastard bbc still claim to be impartial.
@ capella : I was wondering to, as well as, also.
The Tory party dealt with this ‘in-house’. Or they think they have. If the allegations are serious enough the lady in question should make the complaint to the police.
@ Capella at 12:14pm ……”Mark MacDonald …. the biggest majority in Scotland.”
Some of the “treatment” that he received makes sense now.
Because the SNP has not yet spawned an ecology of reporters that will dig unionist dirt and scream and ball when they‘ve something.
I’d like to put forward that the abused Lady, Tory or not should never have been subjected to the alleged offence nor the closed ranks Tory Kangaroo Court proceedings.
I would be willing to contribute to any fighting fund this lady requires to seek justice from the abuser and his party accomplices
Daily frustration for me in seeing the UK Media make mountains out of mole hills when an issue arises in the pro Scotland camp and the 3 not so wise monkey routine is adopted when god’s chosen elitist need any crime covered up.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing!
The only thing necessary for the triumph of the Tory Party is for
UK media to do nothing.
One more example of how the BritNazi Establishment is vile, corrupt and dangerous to the point of being a danger to humanity.
I’m tired of repeating my Cassandra calls: it’s not too late to stop the rise of sociopathic Nazism in this wretched island.
March on Edinburgh this 6 October, in the hundreds of thousands.
Send a message: we’re coming for you.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Geese and ganders Tory MSP Miles Briggs was yesterday cleared of sexual harassment claims by an internal […]
But it is still a case of guilty until proven innocent, and mud sticks regardless of what is proven or not proven. It is also a case of anyone can accuse anyone of almost anything but remain anonymous. Going to the newspapers for money and continuing to accuse seems also to be a trend which kind of spoils the anonimity bit.
RCS is not doing real rape victims any favours by sensationalising what in a past era would have been solved by a slap in the face.
If this had been an actual accusation of rape then anonynimity is needed, but for both individuals.
In one report that I read the inquiry into the allegations were to be held in an hotel. Hardly an appropriate venue I would have thought if this was being treated in any serious way.
…….
Petra @ 12.31pm.
Are Labour proposing another in/out ref on the EU? I have no idea what Labour is proposing and from what I have seen and read in the last few days especially I don’t think Labour has any idea what they are proposing.
A shambles to the nth degree.
AFAIK Labour are proposing a referendum on the Tory “deal”, which is not a deal, but are specifically ruling out a referendum on whether to leave the EU – as at close of play Monday.
UK is ruined whatever UK party is elected.
Petra at 12.31: There will be no further voting on Brexit. It is a done deal due to the Financial implications. The Tories don’t care about its impact, and the fact that Labour keep up this charade kind of shows they don’t care either.
O/T
Labour trying to make a big deal about Richard Leonard being English after Richard Leonard mentions it in his speech.
Not seen any comments about his Englishness but it’s not a good look to become Labour leader in Scotland and then demand that no matter what the vote in Scotland Labour would not allow a referendum vote. Because this makes him look like a colonialist rather than have any interest in Scotland as a country. If he goes down that route then we have the write to ask questions.
Just to clarify I’m 50% English (parents), (75% English grandparents) and 0% Scottish if you go back further. I feel that I have the right to question MSP’s from England that don’t make Scotland a priority.
Oops – spoke too soon – apparently Keir Starmer is proposing to keep the option of a “People’s Vote” open. There’s to be a vote on whether to allow a vote later on in the conference. Updates to follow.
link to bbc.co.uk
I notice the BBC website is keeping the Labour Conference very low profile and off the Home page.
I have no doubt their greatest hope for their Union is to get an anti Indy majority in Holyrood2021. Heaven forbid they do, but if that disaster unfolds, they will undoubtedly form a government even if the SNP was the biggest party. Who would be their FM? Suppose it depends on which BritNat branch gets most seats, but could be Davidson.
OT Oil price $82. Norwegian coffers will be filling up nicely. Shame Scots never got their act together. Time yet, though.
@ Nana link on previous thread – interesting item about Viktor Orban writing to thank the Tory MEPs for their “solidarity” in the EU sanctions vote. Endorsing the alt-right is what Theresa May does.
She notably offered her hand to Viktor Orban to kiss at the Salzburg dinner. Here’s the video of her entrance to the dining room to a staccato drum solo.
link to tinyurl.com
Oddly, the Conservatives have chosen to feature this video in their website Conservative Home – but I won’t link to that! They characterise the EU leaders as a “round table of Bond villains”.
But their admiration for Viktor Orban is easily explained. The i newspaper on 13th September had Guy Verhofstadt as Quote of the Day:
“Orban has openly said he wants to destroy the European Union. We need to stop him – now.”
Tory MSP Miles Briggs. ‘Smiles’.
A disgrace, and the Tories think it’s all over. I hope it is not all over.
PS:
Labour darn Sarf… 🙁
almost guarantee that..there is a near possibility that…and so on and on and on says the BBC! FGS!
The National are saying that the lady who was “accosted” by Briggs was an S.N.P. worker according to the Times.
Unbelievably the victim of this allegation was asked to attend the “enquiry” WITHOUT legal representation and was to be questioned by Briggs himself!!!
I think though THIS from Brindley of Rape Crisis Scotland is THE most telling point of the whole Tory cover up fiasco:
Brindley added: “The fact that the Scottish Conservatives issued a press call for journalists to interview Miles Briggs about his reaction to the outcome of today’s hearing, prior to the hearing even starting, raised significant concerns for us about whether the woman in this case ever had any possibility of justice.”
For me alarm bells are ringing extremely loud here. This says all that needs to be said … the Tories were going to find Briggs “innocent” no matter what!
link to thenational.scot
O/T again, hopefully without spelling mistakes this time.
BBC News Scotland trying with the blood transfusion scandal to give the impression the Scottish Government was somehow involved. As these transfusions were in the 1970’s and 80’s it is a tenuous link to any of the devolved governments.
Not sure what Holyrood could add to this enquiry as the SNHS was run by the Scottish Office at the time, I would look to Mr Mundell to answer for Westminster run policy with the SNHS at the time.
Not sure why this has taken so long, it was clear they were buying in blood because it was presumably cheaper than increasing the blood donor service. They went for the chlorinated washed blood but didn’t bother to check if there was other contaminants.
I can’t comment on any of the cases because I don’t know the details but it is clear that the press went into a rabid feeding frenzy over Salmond and McDonald and much, much less so over Rowley and Briggs.
By all means pursue such claims vigorously but to do so over only one party looks like partisan smearing not campaigning journalism.
I’m surprised Miles has been accused of sexual harassment by a woman, I’m pretty sure he’s gay
Obviously it’s possible to harass someone you’re not attracted to but I’m pretty sure it’s less common
This Wing’s Geese and Ganders article should be sent to the editor of the BBC TV One Show ASAP—–I understand Ruth Davidson will be sitting on their Green Sofa at London HQ 7pm this evening.
Scotland awaits……
Starmer’s speech pretty much gives Labour a full set of policies depending upon who you listen to. McDonnell ruled our Remain. McCluskey wants hard Brexit and Jeremy? He definitely and unequivocally wants something.
So which is it to be? Holding all positions and staying on the fence is pretty cynical.
This whole episode clearly shows the complete bias of the three unionist parties and the support they get from the British/English Nationalist media.
It is now all out in the open to the extent tat anyone, no matter who, that still claims it doesn’t exist is vey obviously in denial.
If the case now being fought by Alex Salmond isn’t proof enough that of former SNP MSP Mark McDonald most certainly does. However, this present Tory whitewash is beyond all credibility.
Talking of credibility, what about this YouTube video of around 22 hours ago?
link to youtube.com
@ William McNicol at 12:56pm ……… “…RCS is not doing real r*pe victims any favours by sensationalising what in a past era would have been solved with by a slap in the face…”
William we have no idea of what happened or …. not. For all we know it could have been an attempted r*pe. And we’re no longer living in a past era. If men don’t know by now what constitutes sexual harassment they should, and be cutting that type of behaviour out. Not waiting to see how far they can go before they get a slap in the face.
…………
Astonished too that William’s post got through when mentioning the r*pe word in full!
Can the victim still go to the Police if she , and R@pe Crisis Scotland, feel the ‘internal examination’ ( really inappropriate term given the circumstances) has not resulted in a fair and just result?
I don’t like the sound of the Tory Party procedure whereby the MSP accused gets to question the ‘victim’ .
No wonder they don’t have a problem with the r@pe clause if they think it’s acceptable for a ‘victim’ to be directly questioned by the ‘perpetrator’ – why, there’s no problem talking about it to a 3rd party then is there. Easy, peasy.
O/T
have a quick look at the BBC N.Ireland website – Arlene Foster is in the hot-seat testifying in Court about the Heating scandal in N.Ireland. Currently blaming some other Minister whom she regrets not having sacked 3 months earlier.
Sorry Missus, if you’re the Boss, you have to take the hit for your team. You can’t blame someone else and try to excuse yourself by saying you should have sacked him earlier. You didn’t, so you called it wrong – bingo, accept the consequences.
@Mike Lothian says: 25 September, 2018 at 2:02 pm:
” … I’m surprised Miles has been accused of sexual harassment by a woman, I’m pretty sure he’s gay. “
I’ve not really been following the case very closely but has not the complainant’s details been anonymous to date?
That being so it may be media assumptions that the complainant is a woman. Not only that but isn’t it acknowledged there are many shades of “Gay”?
@Mike Lothian,
Rabbi Jacob Staub PHD ,who is gay, wrote an article on this very thing. He noticed that his own behaviour with women often made then uncomfortable ,although he being a gay man perceived no threat at all. He realised that he was acting towards them as he would with other gay men, but the instinctive fear among the females involved,perceived somewhat threatening sexual signals coming from a male personna. They did not know he was gay in any event.
He has since modified his behaviour.
Petra
Old habits die hard. I thought the same as you re the word r@pe ut then read the heading about the R@pe Crisis Centre – I guess the Rev has suspended his filter today
I believe the expression you seek is “corruption”.
Remember how you were lied to in 2013/14 about the oil/gas running out? Remember how they keep referring to West of Shetland as ‘THE NORTH SEA’ instead of its correct name the ‘Atlantic Margin’? Remember when in the month before the Referendum Cameron tried to sneak into Shetland but was caught by a ‘YES’ activist with a camera and then all the drillers on Clair Ridge field were sent home to US on full pay and told to keep their mouths zipped?
Back in 2013/14 ‘Big Mac’ McLaughlin had revealed the true extent of Scotland’s Oil/Gas Reserves and few people listened. And yesterday yet another huge gas find was confirmed in the Glendronach Field part of the huge basin of oil/gas in the ATLANTIC MARGIN, West of Shetland.
We are about to be ROBBED AGAIN, FGS would you all waken up.
More britnat media hypocrisy. Boycott all britnat media. Let the Rev expose their deceit.
I’m having problems copying / pasting but if anyone cares to do so there’s MUCH more detail about this case in the National. Strange too that it was reported earlier that the complainant had witnesses supporting her version of events! See what you make of it (when someone posts it).
OT From the Express …
“TWO-thirds of those who voted Leave in the referendum two years ago are not bothered about the details of Brexit – just as long as the UK gets out of the EU.”
So, a third of Leave voters have changed their minds completely or are beginning to think conditionally about Brexit? Presumably some leavers therefore don’t want a crash and burn Brexit.
I do not fully understand the report – was Mr Briggs appearing before a Scottish Parliament committee – or a Tory Party one?
As far as I can understand it, the Miles Briggs “internal examination” is purely what it is, an internal Conservative group “enquiry” with no legal standing whatsoever.
It’s basically a group of friends meeting and conniving with the brit. nat.media to get one of their cronies of the hook.
There is nothing AFAIK to stop the woman who was harassed and R@pe Crisis Scotland from taking this to a lawyer and pressing charges with the police.
This Tory investigation was properly set up as would any formal interrogation, staffed by appropriate members chosen by the Tory party and chaired by the ET HON SKippy.
Auld Rock , they are being kept in the dark by the duplicitous media – they can’t react as they are ignorant of the facts.
No, Salmond was First Minister and leader of a party for 20 years. It was right that, once in the public domain, the allegations received maximum coverage.
However, this MSP should have had SOME coverage, certainly as much as McDonald did. And the reason that the press decided NOT to cover it are undoubtedly partisan.
But it’s difficult to read the article without it feeling like ‘whataboutery’ when you raise the issue of the Salmond allegations. When you compare like for like, THEN the point is valid.
As proponents of Indy we can’t defend someone simply because they share our point of view or lead the party we voted for. I have no idea of the truth, or not, of those accusations but we MUST allow them to take their course…
This is an absolute disgrace. Cleared by a Tory party internal inquiry, well, well, there’s a big surprise. NOT.
I think that this lady, as she appears to have witnesses should go to the police. Let them do a proper investigation.
Auld Rock @3:05 pm
You wrote: “And yesterday yet another huge gas find was confirmed in the Glendronach Field part of the huge basin of oil/gas in the ATLANTIC MARGIN, West of Shetland.”
Indeed it was. And remember this is IN ADDITION TO what we learned about Scotland’s future assets in terms of natural in gas in 2016 when two other major new fields west of Shetland were announced: “… peak production at the Laggan and Tormore fields could satisfy average demand across the whole of Scotland. In total, the two new fields, which have a lifespan of 20 years, will produce about 8% of the UK’s gas needs. A pipeline carries the gas from the huge new Shetland Gas Plant, part of a £3.5bn investment by French firm Total, down to the mainland and into the national grid.”
Source: link to bbc.co.uk
And of course there have already been announcements of major new oil field developments in Scottish waters earlier this year. See this summary from Prof John Robertson:
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
As every speaker at the Labour conference contradicts the last speaker on their Brexit position, Labour supporters on twitter say it is us that are blind. We just don’t see the subtlety and genius of their policy. And I have to agree with them, I can’t see any real difference between them and the Tories position on Brexit.
So either I’m too thick or they are talking nonsense, I have a feeling it’s not because I’m thick but who knows. Maybe Corbyn is a genius and I just can’t spot it (he has hidden it under a bushel for some time though).
I wonder if the Daily Record will run and run and run with the Briggs story until the complainant is given a fair crack of the whip.
Don’t be silly its the DR, a vehemently anti-SNP rag.
All watching the one show tonight on BBC1 to see Davidson being interrogated on her day job. Do you know she’s having a baby.ahhhhj
jfngw
Yes I see Thornbury has added seek an extension of A50 to the myriad of policies they are offering. Basically no matter what your view on Brexit from hard No Deal to Remain in the EU someone is offering something as the Labour policy.
They are either in meltdown or are utterly cynical in trying to attract every demographic.
The National: ‘R*pe Crisis Scotland raise concerns over Miles Briggs hearing as more details emerge.’
”More details have emerged of the night that saw Tory MSP Miles Briggs accused of sexual harassment by an SNP worker.
The shadow health secretary was cleared by an internal party hearing yesterday, but Rape Crisis Scotland, who represent the complainant, say they have serious doubts about the robustness of the inquiry.
Reports in the Times say that an SNP worker had originally accused Briggs of putting his head between her breasts, draping himself over her and making lewd sexual comments.
The two had been in a heated discussion about the r*pe clause at a house party in Edinburgh, following a reception at the French consulate.
Briggs said that his life had become a “living hell” after the allegations and admitted that he had left the party calling the “complainant” a crazy bitch, but he insisted he never sexually harassed the woman.
At least one other SNP staff member gave statements supporting Briggs’s version of events.
On the day of the alleged incident, politicians and party staff had attended a reception at the consulate in Edinburgh after a rugby match between the Scottish and French parliaments. Guests then drifted off to a house party.
The woman claimed Briggs “draped himself” over her at the reception, pinned her against a wall, caressed her hair and made lewd comments about her state of arousal.
According to his version of events, the woman had sought him out at the reception and started an argument about the r*pe clause policy which limits child tax credit to the first two children with an exemption clause for “non-consensual” conception.
Briggs said she continued berating him about the policy over the course of the night before he lost patience, called her a “crazy bitch”, and went home.
The panel found his account “more probable”.
A witness also said that the complainant had originally claimed that Briggs had “motorboated” her — vigorously rubbed his face between her breasts — shortly after the alleged incident, but that she had then not included that allegation in her final account.
An SNP staff member gave evidence in person on behalf of Briggs and eight other witnesses backed his account.
The panel considered written evidence from the complainant and two people who supported her account. They refused to take part in the hearing as it would mean being cross examined by Briggs.
After the two-hour hearing Briggs said: “The allegations are completely false. I was able to supply the party’s disciplinary committee with several witness statements from individuals who were with me the entire evening and which not only challenged but contradicted these allegations and events that evening. I am especially grateful to the SNP parliamentary researchers who were among those who supported my case.”
Sandy Brindley from R*pe Crisis Scotland was furious about the process.
“This is why women are reluctant to come forward with sexual harassment complaints,” she said. “The woman is this case faced a process which was intimidating and inappropriate.
“She was asked to attend a hearing, without representation, to be questioned by the MSP she had made the complaint about.
“When we raised concerns about this, the Conservative party offered for her to be ‘cross examined’ by the chairman, who would put Mr Briggs questions to her, along with questioning from the rest of the committee.
“We pointed out repeatedly that an adversarial approach such as this was not appropriate in a case of this nature.”
The charity boss said they had “such significant concerns about the process being followed” that they advised the complainant and her two witnesses not attend the hearing.
Brindley added: “The fact that the Scottish Conservatives issued a press call for journalists to interview Miles Briggs about his reaction to the outcome of today’s hearing, prior to the hearing even starting, raised significant concerns for us about whether the woman in this case ever had any possibility of justice.”
The complainer said: “I’m gutted that Miles has been found to have done nothing wrong. I’m sad and angry that the process was so terrible that it felt as though this end result was written from very early on.
I want to focus on changing the process so anyone in future can have confidence that someone’s power will not protect them and that they will be treated better than I have been.”
link to thenational.scot
fngw
“We just don’t see the subtlety and genius of their policy.”
Did they explain why it needs to be so subtle?
Do they not know that what people want is a clear policy put slimly as Nicola Sturgeon did from the beginning?
I’m slowly catching on here, I have to admit , I missed the Fat Fingered Donside Mark …”dinghied”
I thought he was treated a bit rough at the time.
Back on track with the Tory let off on here.
Libdems & Labour have a golden opportunity to get one over the Tories ……..silence.
Confirming much more about them.
The more I see of Small Dick Leonard, the more I am reminded of that old Eric Morecambe one-liner:
“This boy is a fool!!”
What’s wrong is trial by media, and exposing the name of an alleged harasser. Whether that’s McDonald, Salmond – or Briggs.
That in itself prevents a fair hearing, not just for the suspect, but any victims. And in that respect the FM does appear to favour the female alleger (s), and pay less attention to preserving the rights of the male to be innocent until proven guilty.
Miles Briggs? The people in Iceland can probably smell the stink of corruption from this Tory kangaroo Court.
If I was employed by the Conservative & LAB-DUP Unionist Party Ltd., in their strategic communications office, I would be working hard to develop all known methods of maximising our results at both elections and Referendums.
We have all seen how, with plenty of money, the electorate can be bombarded with multiple mail-shots and micro targeting straight to your phone, tablet, laptop or PC, and all to winning effect. Not overwhelming mind, but enough to get a win. And the Tories in particular, are learning new ways all the time to beat democracy.
There is so much pressure on the British Establishment and Government right now, that a GE and/or a couple of Referendums are entirely possible. Just a little more pressure, and possible will become necessary.
I, of course do not work for the Tories, or any other part of the British Empire, so no worries. But plenty do. I just hope the SNP are growing their ability to compete with all the modern methods now being used to win votes. As we are often reminded, it’s not who votes that counts, but who has access to piles of dark money and has the phone number of Aggregate IQ in their smartphone.
Just another year or two under the Tories, with no effective opposition to create any meaningful constraint, and things will be much worse.
Hail Alba.
Been out all day and just thought I’d catch up. Where are we at with Labour on Brexit currently? For, against, in without being in, out without being anywhere near in, or moved to the outer rim of the solar system?
Y’know, seein’ as how the (not even remotely) United Kingdom is under six months away from yer (currently) akchul date of commencement? It might be good if HMG’s less than honourable opposition could let the rest of the populations on these island know.
Ta much! Oh and not in their own time. Now would be good.
From Liverpool – a heartbeat from the Labour Conference.
link to amp.theguardian.com
“Nobody,” said Starmer, “is ruling out remain as an option.” The response in the hall to that was immediate. First an instant volley of applause, but then, from deeper in the hall, and somehow also from somewhere deeper in the gut of the party conference, came the cheering, prolonged and surging, and then the standing ovation.
It was a powerful moment. As someone who has been reporting party conferences for a very long time, I can’t remember all that many like it in any party. It’s rare for a politician, even addressing their supporters, to hit the spot with something truly unexpected and powerful. But Starmer’s embrace of the possibility of remaining in the EU hit that spot unerringly. It was, it seems, an improvised addition to the speech. The words weren’t in the planned text. But the words mattered – and so did the response in the hall. Most were on their feet. The applause went on and on. “
Everybody is the SNP knows before they go into Holyrood or the HOC or indeed any position within the SNP that they have to be *Bleach clean* and continue to be so because the media will dig microscopically to the Nth degree to find anything they can smear them with and even then they are prepared for the media and opposition just making it up
The opposition parties have no such scrutiny and never will unless whatever they do happens to be on a public high street on CC TV with two dozen witnesses, and even then they still have a good chance of getting away with it
There is one particular MSP in Holyrood who when in attendence appears let’s say is well refreshed quite regularly and for obvious reasons I won’t say which party she/he represents but I can cut it down by saying it’s NOT the SNP
and it’s not a medical condition either
Y’see if they don’t speak you don’t notice but the Presiding officer probably knows yet does nothing in clear breach of Parliamentary rules
I mean who do these people think they are? Lord George Ffoukes or many other members of the House of Lords
@Jim Lynch says: 25 September, 2018 at 3:44 pm:
” … I do not fully understand the report – was Mr Briggs appearing before a Scottish Parliament committee – or a Tory Party one?”
Neither. In the beginning the complainant was asked to appear before a Tory Party enquiry that included being directly cross-examined by the alleged perpetrator.
The complainant, understandably, objected and the Tory party then offered the complainant the chance to be cross-examined by the alleged perpetrator via the Tory Chairperson of the Tory party panel.
The complainant also refused to take part in that and the Tory Party panel sat and vindicated the alleged assailant.
The complainant then protested to R@pe Crisis and the story was hardly covered by the SMSM and broadcasters.
In short the Tory Party wanted to put the complainant on trial and to be cross-examined by the person that was complained about.
To me the Scottish Tories are the absolute scum of the Earth.
No more news on the Red and Blue Tory councillors in Falkirk ‘and a third man’ arrested by the police over ‘planning’ irregularities.
If this were two SNP Councillors, it would run and run.
perhaps the fact that they are brother Masons in the same Lodge, and register their interests as members of the OO has been instrumental on this potential scandal disappearing from the Media.
I read Tom Gordon’s version of this the other day.
Scoop Gordon couldn’t find out the name of the ‘Third Man’?
Triple cover up? Brit Nat shield of invincibility, the masonic web of secrecy, and Loyal sons of Will I Am?
Anybody know who ‘the third Man’ is?
Is he too big to name?
Labour, like the tory party, is imploding over brexit. Britnat parties are at their weakest. Time for Scotland to get radical. Time to kick the britnats when they’re down. It’s what they deserve.
Gisela Stuart demonstrating the skewed and dishonest thinking of the Government and the Brexiters. It is similar to the darkened logic of someone preparing to commit suicide, convinced they are making the right decision.
link to theguardian.com
Gisela Stuart is chair of Change Britain and the former Labour MP for Birmingham Edgbaston
Not only are SNP treated differently, but the opposition know they will be treated favourably.
tories are sticking two fingers up in this case, irrespective of whether Briggs is guilty or not, I have no view as to his guilt, but the process to find him not guilty by his own mates is biased and stinks to high heaven.
Interesting article, CameronB Brodie @ 12.15pm
It is difficult to ascertain whether the historical inferior status of women has always existed or is a consequence of the changing power dynamic of later human societies.
The major monotheistic religions had their origins in the crucible of early human civilizations – Mesopotamia. In that region, it is possible to see in succeeding civilizations – Sumer, Babylonia through to the Assyrian Empire – the deteriorating status of women. The Assyrians actually regarded women as not being human and they were subjected to the most cruel punishments in the Assyrian Law Code. It was also the Assyrians who decreed that women should always be veiled to separate them from ‘harlots’ who were the only women ‘permitted’ to be seen unveiled.
Religions often simply reflected in codified form, the development of power structures in society and as well as Assyria being highly centralized in an aggressive, expansionist empire, the religion was moving towards having one dominant deity.
It has been said, in the development of religion through the ages, that yesterday’s deity becomes today’s demon. That might have been the case for women also, in that the demoting of mother goddesses had gradual consequences for the status of women generally. Or even vice versa?
( Sorry, a bit off-topic but you can always ignore.)
Tricky Dicky getting asked on Misreporting Scotland what Labours six tests are for Brexit, he did better than I expected being able to eventually get three of them. Total car crash Interview.
I came across a YouTube report by some foreign TV company about Brexit. It was interviewing an apparently well known professor who certainly sounded British.
Unfortunately by the time I finished what I was doing the YouTube video had gone and I couldn’t find it again.
However, in the bit I did watch this professor made a very good point and it was this.
Once Theresa has handed in the formal request for the United Kingdom to the European Union the date is set and the United Kingdom will exit whether there is a deal or no deal.
There isn’t any second chances in this matter. The exit is certain and the time when it could be withdrawn has passed.
There will now be a United Kingdom exit – deal or no deal – the United Kingdom will no longer be an European member state.
Furthermore, the professor made the point that in fact the European Union cannot agreed to any of the EU Freedoms being eased in any way.
What is more he said that certain, none too friendly to the UK, member state leaders had expressed publicly that they would be very glad to see the back of the UK as the UK, since they joined, had been nothing but trouble for the EU and had always seemed to imagine they had some special rights to get better treatment than everyone else.
He then said, as every state has a veto, no matter if the European Commissioners, (the EU Civil Servants), tried to agree to a deal there were member states who wanted the United Kingdom gone and were ready to veto any deal.
I’ll have another search but have failed to find the video and it was labelled as being only 22 minutes old when I watched part of it this morning.
@Robert 7:09
Hit ctrl + H and look it up in your browsing history. I always thought that it could be extended by agreement, so would be interested in seeing that.
That is a party political one show on behalf od Ruth Davidson.
Robert Peffers,
…’ UK, since they joined, had been nothing but trouble for the EU and had always seemed to imagine they had some special rights to get better treatment…’
An unnamed expert has confirmed that the seismic disturbances and strange noises in the Haute Marne region over the last couple of years are definitely caused by the ghost of de Gaulle jumping up and down, shouting ‘I told you so!’
Half an hour of book advertisement for Wee Ruthie , aye Bbc the advertisement free public forced payment subscription channel .
Dont pay the Bbc Licence Fee TAX.
I have also understood that we leave the EU on march 29 , ready or not. By the time IF labour win a GE it will be to late to do anything, but I expect that they will know this, but wont be in any hurry to inform the Electro-late.
youtube.com/watch?v=LK0pOXyV9fQ
How come this wee song has been rattling roon ma heid ever since I saw yon Rick Dotard making his “speech”?
So, Channel4 news, the team that vigorously chased the Tory party over election spending in England, have just had the Tory leader in Scotland on. Not one difficult question. Not one. Just soft fluffy nice questions, with a wink and a smile.
Either Krishnan Guru Murphy is completely ignorant of the rampant racism, corruption and sectarianism at the heart of the Tories in Scotland, or he is just a tory political stooge.
Hey, here’s an idea Channel 4, why not cut out the middleman, and just give Ruth Davidson a free party political slot of her own every single day.
P.S don’t ask about the dark money she willingly received, in the full knowledge that the donors were unknown.
Channel 4 news, what an absolute freaking joke. An utter sham.
It is blindingly obvious, that UK media is completely complicit in trying to push Ruth Davidson as a kind cuddly sort of Tory, who runs Scotland and ‘won the last election (she actually has less than half the number of seats the SNP have. Total propaganda.
Robert Peffers
Was it Professor Michael Dougan?
link to youtube.com
JGedd says:
My understanding is that hunter gatherers were and are more egalitarian in every way including gender status. Both genders contributed similar levels of food and resources to the tribe.
When agriculture was taken up, people specialised, resources were accumulated, hierarchies developed, warrior and ruler classes, power and wealth. Most women spent their adult lives pregnant or breast feeding, as before, however this new order disadvantaged women from the new power and decision making roles.
Also, men became obsessed with lineage and passing on their wealth. This meant women’s reproductive activity became strictly controlled by men.
JGedd @6:30pm today
Fascinating, I tend towards the power dynamic thesis, as I reckon the development of monist cultures essentially ensured the exclusionary social power dynamics we live with today. 😉
galamcennalath
I think we’re on the same wavelength.
? More
From the twitter account of the Head of Communications for Channel 4 news.
“THREE blockbuster political interviews on Channel 4 News tonight:
The Prime Minister, the man who wants to be prime minister and the woman who says she’ll never be prime minister”
And you can here the missing bit screaming to get out
“BUT WOULD WALK INTO THE JOB IF SHE WANTED IT BECAUSE SHE’S A BLOCKBUSTER POLITICIAN”
Never won an election in all the time she’s led her party up here.
They just don’t get Scotland, do they?
Robert Peffers @ 19:09,
Gerry @ 19:19,
You seem to be forgetting that there was a judgement on that very issue delivered in the Court of Session just the other day, due to a legal challenge mounted by Alyn Smith among several others.
It seems it will now go all the way to the ECJ for final judgement, and expeditiously too.
(That’s not to say that in the event the prof. may be proven wrong. If it was Michael Dougan, he seems to know his stuff, EU-wise.)
“suspended from the SNP while the inquiry took place, and eventually kicked out, suspended temporarily from Parliament and banished to a basement office far from other MSPs.
He’s now invariably referred to as “shamed MSP Mark McDonald”, was ludicrously castigated by former colleagues as a risk to the safety of staff, and is widely expected to lose his seat at the next election.”
There is nothing more shameful than an SNP MSP literally getting into bed with Dugdale the enemy, in my humble opinion.
If the SNP could treat innocent SNP MSP Mark McDonald in this way, it should have treated the SNP Tractor in a much worse way.
The SNP is fast becoming an Establishment party – its Westminster leader recently sided with Saint Theresa in attacking Alex Salmond and RT.
Mark my words – Establishement lawyer Nicola will not dare call an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster.
To the EU, Scotland will have the same status as Catalonia.
The EU didn’t quite rush to defend Catalonia did it?
Challenge to the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here:
Does a single one of you have the guts to go on the record and state that there will definitely be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?
Robert Peffers?
Liz g?
sassenach?
Dave McEwan Hill?
Cubby?
Petra?
Brian Doonthetoon?
I think I can were Labour are going. When out canvassing they see what the voter wants and gives them the quotes from the speech that matches their opinion. They have a quote for every opinion now, whether you want to remain, leave or have another referendum, they have a political quote to make you feel they have a policy that matches your concerns.
Youtube to the rescue tonight, the thought of half an hour with the mouth was too much for me. Watched some clips of Shania Twain at the Hydro last week, impressive set design.
I see that another two of my posts haven’t appeared and I’m not going to try to post the link again (and lay the article out in full as I’m on my IPad now). It would be well worth everyone’s while to read the report on the Briggs case in the National. It’s a bit of an eye-opener to say the least.
……………….
Another scunnersome thing about Ruth Davidson is that she’ll probably make a load of dough with her book, because it’s not just about her, as I thought ……. boring. She’s interviewed at least 17 women including her boss, Big T, Professor Sue Black (whom I really admire – and suffered from sexual abuse as a child), and so on. Typical Tory “user” lining her own pockets. Imo, she came out about her prior “issues” to promote this book. How much of the proceeds of her book do you think she’ll donate to mental health charities?
link to amazon.co.uk
My heart goes out to the woman who had to disclose that she believes she was subjected to sexual harassment by Tory MSP Miles Briggs.
Her treatment at the hands of the Tory Party in Scotland is frightening and typically despicable.
Thank goodness she is being supported by Rape Crisis Scotland.
manandboy @ 17:52,
I think Starmer deliberately went off-script to put one over Corbyn, McDonell and their puppetmaster McCluskey. And very niftily done, it was too.
However, the outcome of all that bravado and high principle seems to have morphed this evening into that it’s only after a UKGE isn’t called that Labour will support a “Peoples’ Vote”. Which rather begs two questions:
What platform will Labour actually stand on if a UKGE does happen?
and
How can Labour possibly ensure an EURef2 will come about if the Tories remain clinging to power?
Help me out here. It’s sometimes very hard keeping an eye on the ball over Labour’s policy on the EU and Brexshit.
Maybe it’s even Schroedingers’ ball. Sometimes it’s in one place and sometimes it’s in another, depending on when you look.
me @ 20:56,
Oops, I seem to have lost a close-italics after “isn’t”. Apologies for that.
@ Robert Louis at 7:44pm ….. “Davidson on TV AGAIN.”
She’s not interested in being a politician now especially as she sees that the Tories are ready to implode down south. Bunch of morons etc. She’ll never become FM of Scotland either and she knows that too. She’s got her eye on being on television every other day in the week as some kind of political presenter, imo.
I once was told from someone with connections, that published authors get a special deal / rebate from the tax man due to some obscure historic bit of legislation to try and help poor authors sustain themselves.
If true, it could explain rather a lot.
I wonder if you get it for ghost writing the scribblings of over promoted, 9th rate, placement or placewomen in politics?
Peace and love.
On C4 news tonight Davidson actually says she has her own mandate in Scotland. Not challenged or asked to explain what she means. Not aware she has ever won any political election. Perhaps she has been elected chair of her local mother and baby group. Incredible how Davidson is always given such soft interviews on all tv channels. It was like a Ruth Davidson is brilliant party political broadcast.
Davidson the self promoters ultimate self promoter.
Contrast this interview with Corbyn in the same programme where he is given an extremely hard time.
Somebody been licking the bottom of the birdcage again and inevitably talking sh#te
Robert peffers have you tried your YouTube search history?
Despite the attempted beautification of Ruth Davidson by the media, seems to be mostly the government controlled channels (BBC & C4), the people of Scotland know the truth and how little she has done for Scotland. Merely a self publicist that hopes she can jump into a major role down south. They need to line someone up as the current cabinet are toxic and she can be sold to those down south as a winner, despite her only success is winning a seat in Edinburgh (ably assisted by Labour).
She has no experience of any role carrying responsibility, unless you consider being a branch manager ample qualifications for a PM.
They need to realise her party came second in Scotland not because she was good, it was because Labour was so bad and still are. I can think of no unionist politician in Holyrood that I would say, what an asset they would be to the SNP, totally unimpressive bunch.
Labour Rebuilding Britain
For the many (ENGLAND) not the few (SCOTLAND, WALES, N.IRELAND)
manandboy
I’ve heard various interviews around the labour Conference this week and last week.
Various different opinions but the two that have stuck out are David Milliband last week who basically said that unless labour offered to fight for Remain it couldn’t call itself an Opposition and Keir Starmer today who sounded like the next Leader of the Labour Party to me. I’ve heard him speak over the last year or two increasingly frequently and he always speaks logically and in a well-measured way.
Tonight I heard a discussion between two delegates one, ( young, well-spoken female) for a 2nd EU ref arguing that the young, overwhelmingly want to Remain and Labour would gain 1.5 million votes if they support that view and the other delegate, with the obligatory northern ( english) accent who was going on about if Labour backs a 2nd vote and Remain it will betray the working class which is the bedrock of the Labour party. All labour MP’s in a swathe from Birmingham to Sunderland and across to the Valleys of Wales would be unseated.
These are both valid points and shows the dilemma for Labour but I tend to agree with David Milliband/Keir Starmer they have to take that chance and go for it.
The second delegate said that if they backed Remain Labour would become a middle-class party but didn’t Blair take them there anyway?
I’m not sure that the working class he refers to actually support Labour now either.
Maybe it’s time for the Party system to disappear.
jfngw Re Ruth winning her seat in Edinburgh with the help of Labour……she still only just managed it because Patrick Harvey decided to stand his one and only Green candidate in that same seat effectively splitting the pro indy vote (many SNP voters even gave Greens their 2nd vote!) link to en.wikipedia.org
The British establishments twisted, corrupt and control over all the media is widely known and its going to strongly contribute to the end of their ‘union’ with region Scotland. Even when they are trying to be subtle, hardly anyone except the most pompous of yoons is taken in.
Re. social structure in contemporary Britain. Traditional, Marxist, class-based analysis is soooooo 1970s. These are post-feminist, post-modern, globalised times we live in.
link to eprints.lse.ac.uk
Daisy Walker says:
25 September, 2018 at 9:04 pm
If only… there once was a law to that effect in Ireland but never has been here to my knowledge.
@Robert J @ 8:42
I’m not forgetting about that at all, or underestimating The legal opinion of Lord Carloway. Pay particular attention to note 7 which is the crux of the matter really. (ie whether or not there is a 3rd way in the event of no deal)The matter will still be in the hands of WM regardless. Have you actually read the judgement ?
The judgement I am more interested in and I believe will be a catalyst to indyref2 being called is the supreme court one in a month or so.
Considering the potential of both of these rulings, the move to have the claim of right recognised by WM (more specifically the tories) was actually genius. Rulings aside, the way that the UK govt negotiations are going we are heading toward being in a position where the EU easlily can and will, and I quote from Jens Zimmermann member of the German Parliament from Jan 2017, “Regulate the sh*t out of the UK”. Which he said in response to May’s empty threat to play hardball.
As for the ECJ ruling that you refer to (which I agree is significant). How do you seriously think that will play out in WM even if it lands in our favour ?
That said, the reality of the situation is that the worse things look for the UK, the better the chance we have of attaining independence.
Surely the only way to pass labours 6 tests is never to have left in the first place.
Anent the Briggs whitewash, why did the complainant take her problem to the Tories instead of to the Scottish Parliament? A crew shot through with bigots & dodgy cash were never going to give her a fair hearing?
WOW, what an honour(?), I’ve now appeared on Rock’s repetitive list once again.
He/she/it must have a degree in cut&paste by now.
Scroll on bye…..!
Petra says:
25 September, 2018 at 8:51 pm
“I see that another two of my posts haven’t appeared”
Please learn from your past mistakes and don’t repeat them:
Petra says:
9 October, 2017 at 12:55 am
“Well I’ve tried to post this on numerous occasions tonight, to no avail.”
Rev. Stuart Campbell says (to Petra):
6 October, 2017 at 11:09 am
(“Have I Got Evasion For You”)
“I’m going to say this one last time and then, with the very greatest of reluctance, I’m going to ban you for NOT FUCKING LISTENING.
DO.
NOT.
POST.
THE.
SAME.
COMMENT.
REPEATEDLY.
If it falls foul of the filters the first time you try, THE SAME FUCKING THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY OTHER TIME. OBVIOUSLY. The filters don’t change from one comment to the next. All you do is create a giant mess for me to clean up behind the scenes. You do it over and over again. I don’t know how many times I have to say it.
Sometimes I have to go out. Sometimes I’m just taking a break for a few hours. When I get back, I’ll check the comments needing approval and your comment will be approved. That’s how it works. That’s how it’s always worked. That’s how it will continue to work. Everyone else manages to follow the rules.
Your posts are enormously long, and when I get in and find 20 of them in the approval queue, all several screens high, I have to scroll endlessly up and down trying to work out which ones are new and which ones are the same ones posted five times in a row. It’s UNBELIEVABLY tedious and time-consuming and soul-destroying and I’ve FUCKING WELL TOLD EVERYONE NOT TO DO IT A HUNDRED TIMES.
Do not do it again. We clear?”
O/T
RE: T May standing in front of the carefully folded Union Flags in Downing street the other…
Did anyone else think that it almost looked like those red crosses might open into a swastika.
Chilling!
Britnats fighting amongst themselves in the britat media. Great fun. But we must use their internal squabbling to Scotland’s advantage.
msdidi says:
25 September, 2018 at 9:41 pm
jfngw Re Ruth winning her seat in Edinburgh with the help of Labour……she still only just managed it because Patrick Harvey decided to stand his one and only Green candidate in that same seat effectively splitting the pro indy vote (many SNP voters even gave Greens their 2nd vote!)
———————
i campaigned hard for a 2 vote for green. i admit now i was wrong.
more fool me/
apologies to heedtracker, where ever he maybe
Fred 10.30pm
I suggest the complainant is a Tory.
galamcennalath @ 8.09pm
Yes, I agree with everything you say. It’s what I would have said had I had time to expand. So yes, in early, smaller human groups with close personal connections, the value of women in the survival of the tribal group would probably be well understood.
As you say,in modern tribal groups the importance of women in child-rearing and food-gathering is obvious. In early tribal groups their acquisition of herbal medicine as well as having the special role of presiding over childbirth would have awarded women a specialist, arcane knowledge of life and death – hence the concept of Mother Goddess.
But the status of women obviously eroded over time marked by the replacement of mother goddesses with male deities. The growing evidence of warrior cultures and increased warfare probably had something to do with the steady demotion of the status of women to mere chattels and burdensome collateral casualties in time of war.
Anyway,before I blether on again I will simply finish with an observation with which Cameron would probably concur and that is that once these power elites had established their hierarchies they were extremely reluctant to allow any change. Once women had been neutralised and awarded a lesser status they were policed by the institutions of religion and society and ironically by other women too.
Dear Rock, @ 10.36pm
I’m quite sure that the Rev Stu, in fact I know, the Rev Stu can and does post his own comments, as and when he feels the need.
The fact you cut and pasted a previous one and then hit out at Petra, is not appropriate. Bullying in fact. It’s not your site to Police.
I will never forget the post Petra put out, sketching out a bit of Scottish History regarding the women carers who had been robbed and discriminated against, and their shoddy treatment by Labour and the subsequent long drawn out legal battle.
I knew women who worked in that field and in that area, and although they got out to other occupations, they witnessed it. That was their friends and colleagues. That was another bit of Scottish History swept under the carpet.
And Petra was there, and she fought, and she’s still standing, still fighting yet. Quality.
In accordance with the rules, I will contact The Rev and report your conduct.
Kindest regards to all. Best wishes, and a computer free from glitches future, to all.
And back to politics…
I see Sir Keir Starmer just seriously undermined Jeremy today.
Not by accident.
Starmer is the establishment’s man to lead Labour. He is no threat to it.
If he gets there there will be a General Election.
I don’t think Brexit will happen.
JGedd
Indeed. I also think a woman’s historical place in the word mirrors Scotland’s place in the ‘Union’, which is to be subordinate to the political concerns of another nation. Subsequently, Scotland lacks effective agency and suffers an emotional dissonance.
link to cambridge.org
#DissolveTheUnion
@msdidi
If people want to vote Greens we can’t stop them. Also not a good idea to ask other parties to stand down to help you out. You could make the same argument for the unionist side, only stand the party that could win. We need to persuade people to vote for independence and SNP, it is really the only way to win independence.
Also if SNP voters moved to the Tories because of Brexit then we could be locked in this union forever, there will always be some division the UK can play on. I sometimes feel Scots are their own worst enemies, bickering about trivia whilst Westminster make off with the jewels.
If we don’t choose independence now I fear we never will, in my lifetime anyway.
@ Cubby at 11.04
She’s being described as an “SNP worker”, eg here:
link to twitter.com
@Robert J. Sutherland
“What platform will Labour actually stand on if a UKGE does happen?”
That is a very good point, we’ve had two different versions of the Labour view on a peoples vote already this week, Remaining in the EU won’t be an option and Reamining in the EU will not be ruled out and is an option.
Only one can be true of course but even worse is that Stammer is saying they will only support a “Peoples Vote” if they can’t force a General Election. As you say what will be in their manifesto then on the most important topic facing the UK?
They don’t appear to have a clue, personally I think they’re all fecking idiots bending whichever way the wind blows.
stewartb @ 4.23pm and Auld Rock @3:05 pm on our significant new gas and oil reserves.
Have not heard a cheap from anyone in the SNP on this and especially when any of the hierarchy are live on air. Are they ever going to grasp the mettle of seizing opportunities for the use of message soundbites. So many chances lost in not rocking the establishment boat, one could almost think they are part of the establishment.
I like many others waited in vain at indyref1 for the great SNP push that never came.
Civil War breaks out in the Tory Party over Sexual Harassment Accusations”
Guess I must have missed these headlines, they just passed me by.
Petra @ 20:51,
O/T I just want to say that IMO you are a real asset to this site, unlike the Neolithic One who is a dead loss. I’m also fairly confident that virtually everyone here shares this opinion, with only one likely exception.
“Numquam illegitimus carborundum.” Keep on posting!
PS: I’ve also had the occasional lost posting of late. Submitted virtually the same message later which got through without a problem. Sometimes I’ve seen postings appear immediately after being sent (as in days of yore), other times it seems to take absolute ages.
Try to make sure though that name and e-mail address are spelt correctly, since typos there are the obvious main reason for “disappearances”.
(Incidentally, that may possibly include wee finger-slips onto control keys that might then get included without being visible. Or am I just being paranoid?
The other apparently arbitrary source of loss may be down to some issue with the site.)
Thepnr @ 23:48,
As DMH hints upthread, Starmer is the Brit Establishment’s last best hope. Both at least do seem recognise the total car-crash that Brexshit represents, and that the Tories serial self-harm is going to rebound on us all. Like it or not, believe it or not.
The panic is definitely setting in, and confidence in UKGov clearly plummeting by the day, though it’s still all largely happening on the QT. Unlike the situation back in 2014, when they were eager to use a loudhailer to predict every plague under the Sun for us, and then some.
It’s not in the least clear though even at this late stage if Labour (esp. its so-called leadership) is capable of mastering and avoiding the upcoming disaster any better than Mayhem & Co. Their current strategy seems to amount to little more than “vote for us and we’ll do it better than the other lot. Somehow. Just don’t ask.”
Everywhere you look every day of the week you see British Nationalist parties obsessing over the SNP and constantly claiming the SNP keep banging on about Independence
Yet everywhere you look you never see the SNP talking about any of these things at all
When you look even at the FMs twitter there are more Britnats trolling and abusing her most of them moaning about her banging on about Independence when she never mentioned the word and all she’s doing is visiting a school or opening a business or a building or attending something medical
Of course it’s all to force it into the minds of the easily led but the trouble is they are easily led
My granddaughters teacher told her class to remember to wear warm winter clothing next week because of the expected blizzards, my granddaughter asked how she knew about this and the reply came *The Daily Express* and of course I laughed out loud immediately then after a nano seconds thought realised the obvious that my granddaughters teacher is a moron who just advertised the Daily Express as a truthful and accurate document of news which instantly threw up murderous thoughts in my head for a teacher who would behave this way, because you can’t tell me that’s an accident
Teachers are trusted to impart information and pupils accept it as true because the teacher said so and it doesn’t matter that her grandfather *me* is wiser far more educated and compared to the average teacher in high school well let’s say more extensively qualified, I don’t know what I’m talking about because I’m a silly old grandad
We have a lot of teachers in our schools who are imparting their opinions instead of teaching the pupil how to form their own opinions and that bothers me a lot
Looks like Establishment duo of Starmer & Thornberry are slowly but surely
influencing the more radical Corbyn & Macdonnel as regards their positioning on Brexit. The
Westminster establishment now have the necessary “ backstop” in place to thwart the Independence referendum . There is a lot more water to “ flow under the bridge” and now we can see why our FM has “ held her wheesht “ for so long. She is so rightly holding her cards to play late in the day .
TM is now under the most severe pressure and it was noticeable tonight during post UN interview she appeared to be perspiring and sounded somewhat nervous and unsure whilst swiping away any possibility of “ Canada type deal”. What is absolutely crystal clear now is that the “ credibility “ of herself and her disastrous Tory government is at absolute rock bottom with the EU member states. Her mission now at the behest of JRM & co is to get the U.K. out of the EU at any cost , after which she will be shunted off into the HOL ( job done). However, if she fails and HOC votes against Brexit surely GE to follow and possible Labour minority gov.? ( looks like Corbyn has been “ partially cleansed “re A.S. smears due to acceptance of international definition & could have thumbs up for 2nd eleven Britnat gov. if required and necessary by the establishment).
If May succeeds then Scotland gets Indyref2
If May fails, and Corbyn gets keys to no. 10 our FM can demand a very high price for any required support.
If the final outcome is EU2 and a remain vote , the Westminster government would have to go “ crawling back to the EU on its knees “ totally discredited. Scotland & Northern Ireland would certainly “ have most favoured status” in the eyes of the EU if this came to pass . The “ tax avoiders& money launderers “ would most definitely be on the “ radar “ of the EU authorities& courts.
The plot thickens.
@Meg merrilees and others
Havevn’t noticed Keir Starmer before, surprisingly I don’t follow party politics that much. But I did hear him on the news at the conference, and he was instantly very impressive, including that “little bit” about the referendum that he inserted and wasn’t in the version given to the journalists.
Solid pedigree, QC, knows how to use just a few seconds to maximum advantage. If Cirby goes and Starmer stands, good chance he’s in and yes, fair chance of no Brexit.
@Rock
Fuck off and leave people alone you bullying bastard.
Corbyn not Cirby! I’m not that ignorant honest, but my keyboard is.
You never know what you’re going to find on arrival on here, LOL. Wee Chippie’s not getting any attention, not happy and desperation is setting in. Pathetic. He / she can now see that their beloved Union is over and out. Suffice to say thanks to Daisy, RJS and yesindyref2.
……………….
BBC News: WOW nothing negative.
No deal Brexit bad for Scotland, Edinburgh tourist tax, new research shows that teenagers in Scotland are drinking less (from 41% to 11/14% – girls/ boys over the last 10 years), scientists have created a new botanical gin library and fitba.
…………………..
However your daily dose of BBC propaganda.
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
…………………
The National really needs to get a grip on its headlines. Front page on link: “Capital AUOB march blow as use of Holyrood Park is refused”
No it isn’t, the march can go through, it’s stalls and stage are a problem (so far).
And article headline: “Holyrood Park ruled out as a venue for Edinburgh AUOB march”
No it isn’t, the march can go through, it’s stalls and stage are a problem (so far).
Get a grip Callum Baird, are you reading this? I’ll be there, will you?
@Petra
Apologies for my language 😎
Oops spoke too soon. Main BBC news (not from where you are). Research shows that teenage drinking has dropped particularly in England. Then they spoke to a Scottish researcher based at St Andrews. I’m sure there’s a “story” in there, somewhere, for Professor John Robertson.
I’m just putting this here, in case AUOB organisers haven’t made the connection already.
From the Hearld (5th August this year)
“Judge Frances Eccles ruled that sovereignty and self-determination are weighty and substantial aspects of human life and the merits of McElenys case can now go forward to a full hearing. ”
So HES are on shaky legal ground here, classing it as political in nature.
I suggest they be gently informed of the error of their ways – and possibly an interdict sought to allow stalls and stage to go ahead.
The SNP will show the seeds of their own destruction if they continue not to defend their politicians grievously mauled by a biased press on theflimsiest of allegations.the
Hi yesindyref2.
My understanding is…
Originally, the rally was to be in the grounds outside the Holyrood Parliament – the green bit with the big puddle where previous rallies have taken place. This is under the control of the parliament authorities.
When the numbers like “100,000+” started to be mentioned, it was deemed unsafe for stalls to take up space needed for people.
It looks like permission was been sought to use the larger Holyrood Park, which is administered by Historic Scotland.
link to historicenvironment.scot
It has been suggested that with the numbers expected, Calton Hill would have been a better venue, due to having more space.
Hi Brian
As long as it’s communicated in time, I guess it doesn’t matter where it is, as long as not too far from the
pubscity centre.Willie @ 7.19am
Your point is fine, in theory, but, in practice – how does the SNP persuade “a biased press” to print their defence of the biased attack?
If, as we know they are, the Unionist press is sent a press release, defending the SNP against that same Unionist press’s biased attack – there is no way that defence will go in, unless so-heavily censured and altered as to make it useless.
can someone tell me why the Daily mail in the guise of the metro is allowed to infest every bus and train station ?
Getting rid of propaganda that is foisted freely on the public would be nice
I hope the snp are keeping a list of all their articles of defence that don’t see the light of day in the Unionist press.
One day the truth will out. Hopefully very soon.
With the press and broadcasters so greatly antagonistic to all things Indy, it is sometimes very difficult to see how we can ever ‘win’. Yet, for all that, it appears that support for Indy remains quite firm (if you believe the absolutely ‘fair’ pollsters!) – that cheers me up.
The good thing is that when a former No voter sees the light, they will not go back – it’s a one-way street once the scales are lifted.
But all this waiting is costing me a fortune in popcorn!
So Tory poster boy Myles Briggs defends the rape clause, calling a woman a crazy bitch then is cleared of any wrongdoing by the Tory party. Will that convince the public that they’re fit for public office?
I hae ma doots.
@ Brian Doonthetoon, yesindyref2
Or maybe a starfish procession. 5 arms; Leith walk, Haymarket, Royal Mile, Bridges and Broughton Street. All converging on Princeses Street Gardens.
Should please the City Fathers!
Links
link to news.gov.scot
To maximise Scotland’s #export growth potential, we are investing £20million to help the next wave of export ready businesses.
link to twitter.com
link to autonomyscotland.org
link to macalbasite.wordpress.com
Over the past few months, Forward as One has been working on pushing the Scottish Parliament towards a section 30 order. This process has revealed several matters of concern, namely the lack of information and the misconceptions surrounding what a Section 30 order is and what asking for one actually achieves.
link to archive.is
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Recycled household waste overtakes landfill in Scotland
link to archive.is
link to newsnet.scot
link to facebook.com
A giant Moray Firth wind project will create 150 jobs and add £90 million to the local economy, developers have said.
link to archive.is
link to macalbasite.wordpress.com
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Edinburgh March
Changing the venue is “giving in”. Who are these people who deny access and use. Take a look at their background and you will find Unionist placements. It is the same people who will tell you that you cannot have a Referendum. You will find the background of these people to be VERY political but that sums up the last 300years of Scottish History.
I would rather keep the March to the park as planned and forego stalls and make the point of being in the park.
Do not give in to Unionist bullying.
link to newshoundsnewsround.wordpress.com
After Salzburg: Time for Realistic UK Proposals on the Irish Border and Future Relations
link to scer.scot
link to soundcloud.com
link to thedetail.tv
Will not archive
link to independent.co.uk
German chancellor says terms of trade deal need to be made ‘concrete’ in next eight weeks
link to archive.is
A Nasty Brexit Threatens the West
link to archive.is
Contaminated blood scandal: many medical records disappeared, inquiry hears
link to archive.is
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
Exclusive – EU open to free trade but not Chequers customs plan: document
link to archive.is
link to sluggerotoole.com
Brexit: the impact on aviation
link to eureferendum.com
Scotland`s Brent crude is trading at $82,
Brent Crude is a major trading classification of sweet light crude oil that serves as a major benchmark price for purchases of oil worldwide.
This grade is described as light because of its relatively low density, and sweet because of its low sulphur content.
link to thecanary.co
link to eamonnmallie.com
Bad move
link to uk.finance.yahoo.com
Footsoldier at 12.40
Because the SNP has got a lot wiser but lots of others haven’t. Many of us in the seventies recognised that the oil was the biggest impediment to our independence and banging on about oil (which was a godsend to the broke UK)would make it easy for our opponents to suggest that our independence dream was totally reliant on oil.
And then tell us it was running out and we would be reliant as it ran out on UK subsidy which has been their story for decades.
Any oil or gas discovery is a “bonus”. Our economy is perfectly viable without it and that is the sensible and politically sensible position. We will not be “banging on “about oil and gas”
frogesque at 9.19
Maximum capacity at Princess Street Gardens is about 30,000. Far too small.
Socrates MacSporran says:
26 September, 2018 at 7:58 am
Willie @ 7.19am
Your point is fine, in theory, but, in practice – how does the SNP persuade “a biased press” to print their defence of the biased attack?…
The SNP is Scotland’s government in waiting. If Scotland was already an Independent Nation, we would require a robust defence in all matters from how the name of our country is spelt on the map, right through to actual military defence of our land in time of all-out war, – maybe even alone and on our own.
If our government in waiting cannot get creative about delegitimising the distorted narrative and rampant propaganda which creates such a false and artificial political landscape in Scotland, then unfortunately that is 1-0 to the propagandists who are successfully doing precisely what propagandists do, and the awkward truth is, for it to continue so long without even any formal challenge becomes a poor reflection on the government which allows it, and condemns a government which cannot prevent it as weak.
It begs the question whether the SNP’s feet are big enough to fill Sovereignty’s shoes. Sadly there is still a lot of growing required I fear.
It’s a state of mind thing. Too few of us have it.
link to politico.eu
link to handpickedaccountants.co.uk
link to politico.eu
Davidson is appearing on lbc this morning, see comments below this tweet
link to twitter.com
Re Historic Env. Scotland banning AUOB from Holyrood Park on 6/10 – when Scotland had a thriving Mining Industry The Scottish Miners Gala was held every year in Holyrood Pk complete with political speeches.
If that as OK so is AUOB.
Calton Hill is a fine spot and the weather forecast at the moment is set fair so other than being a bit of hike for those less mobile it should suffice. However, it is tad unreasonable of Historic Unionists to pull the plug so late. Clearly a deliberate ploy and one they should be pinged over.
@Scot Finlayson
09:27
Brent Crude is a legacy title from the time when the Brent field did produce oil.
In the latter years the Brent field was depressurised to switch to gas production. Due to poor Water Injection quality management the field was sour and pipeline production was often limited due to high values of H2S. As the field entered final production stage from the Brent Charlie platform it is the Oil from the remote Penguin field which kept it on spec.
Brent Crude is a “historic legacy title” only.
Every AUOB march has been mired in controversy Before & After . The 1st advert stated Holyrood Park , the SPCB initially given permission for parliaments grounds Auob again tried to put up barriers for some stalls taking part , Spcb was contacted to seek permissions to accomodate those of us who were being excluded that was refused.
Auob have from the outset ( Glasgow Green ) inflated the numbers expected to rally at every march then claim their being obstructed by Councils ect ect.
Every one of us Grassrooters who helped Auob at the start were disillusioned by the way Manny Singh & Neil Mackay dictated & bullied people into submission + the online abuse of their acolytes on anyone who dares to ask questions , its their way or the highway.
Auob highjacked the Bannockburn event which was organised by Donald Anderson & John Mellon of the (Scottish Socialist Republican Movement) .
Dundee event & the local people who were organising that march didn’t fit in with Manny Singh’s strategy when dealing with City council , they were sidelined . Again the nonsense of dictat of Manny Singh ( all stalls had to register for permission to put up Stalls on Magdelene Green ( common land ) citing Dundee City Council as the authority making the rules . I received a copy of a E Mail on the Thurs evening before the Sat march , as with any organising body you would expect a accompanying form to apply for permission .
As with Bannockburn I refused to pay pitch fee & was threatened by Manny Singh that the stall would be removed ( Laughing loudly ).
Inverness was organised by Neil Davidson & Judith Reid but the Ego’s of Auob project themselves as the people who put in the hard work & nothing could be further from the truth . Neil Davidson fell out with Auob egotists within 2 weeks of Inverness .
Dont be fooled by Auob .
The AUOB march should end in Holyrood Park. Screw the stalls, not that important. We march where we want to march. No compromise on the route. Fuck ’em.
Hey Rock @ 10.36 pm
I have said many times that you are a boring Britnat who just repeats the exact same crap.
Your last post shows you are also a bullying diddy who contributes nothing but negativity to this site.
Econmic experts back Nicola Sturgeon’s call to delay Brexit
link to archive.is
link to ukconstitutionallaw.org
link to irishtimes.com
link to irishtimes.com
@Nana says: 26 September, 2018 at 9:23 am:
” … Over the past few months, Forward as One has been working on pushing the Scottish Parliament towards a section 30 order. This process has revealed several matters of concern, namely the lack of information and the misconceptions surrounding what a Section 30 order is and what asking for one actually achieves.”
link to archive.is
Hi, Nana, of all the important links you work so hard to seek out for us the one above may be the single most important one of all. While it is a long and very detailed read it does get the whole process explained.
The many Wingers who have castigated Nicola Sturgeon, the SG, the SNP and who have all obviously failed to understand the Edinburgh Agreement and a Section 30 are not, and never were, the same thing nor indeed that they require Westminster’s permission.
I’m not alone in being sick and tired of refuting these people’s misguided attempts to side-track the issue and force the FM/SG/SNP/YES Movement to act in haste and thus totally destroy the chance of gaining Scotland’s independence.
Neither am I alone in doubting the detractors true motives are to win independence but instead are to urge a senseless charge at a superior armed enemy head on and have the real indy supporters mown down by the superior armed and numerically superior forces of English/British Nationalism.
Anyway I’m probably still wasting my time for these people seem rather disinclined to accept any reasoned arguments in their eagerness to see the whole SNP/SG strategy thrown away by premature actions. They will probably never read:-
link to archive.is
Much less engage in debate about it here on Wings.
AUOB Oct 6
Mmm, “3 There was, in addition, a much larger transfer of historic national properties from the Crown to Scottish Ministers at devolution. In 1999, 26 properties held as ancient possessions by the Crown in Scotland were conveyed on behalf of the Crown by the Crown Estate Commissioners (CEC) to the Secretary of State for Scotland. As a result, the ownership of these properties, listed in Fig. 10, transferred to Scottish Ministers under the 1998 Act. ”
which includes Holyrood Park.
link to gov.scot
Mmm:
“Fiona Hyslop:
The Historic Environment Scotland Act 2014 created a new public body, Historic Environment Scotland (HES) to carry out the regulatory and other functions which were formerly delivered by or on behalf of Scottish Ministers.
HES acts as the lead public body on matters relating to Scotland’s historic environment and as guardian of Scotland’s historic environment, including responsibility for delivering Scottish Ministers’ functions relating to the properties in their care, of which Holyrood Park is one.
Since your query relates to an operational issue, this is a matter for HES, the answer to which is not held centrally. I have therefore referred your question to the HES Chief Executive who will reply to you
directly.”
link to parliament.scot
So the answer is to take it up with Fiona Hyslop and she can urgently refer it on.
Nana, I know it is only occasionally that I put here in print my huge admiration and appreciation for what you do here on Wings, but please be assured, these sentiments are constant and undiminished. I hope you are well and that you continue to be so as you go on giving us so much to advance the Independence cause which is uppermost in all our hearts. Love,xx.
Labour’s latest position. Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, said Labour would not include a commitment to a second referendum on Brexit in its manifesto if there is an early general election.
Well, if there isn’t a GE for a few years, then Brexit will have been completed by the Tories-DUP.
If there is an early GE it will have been because of Brexit chaos. And Labour intend standing on a ticket of what? More of the same?
With the Tories is such a mess, Labour have an opportunity. What do they do? Waffle about everything.
Still, by perverse logic, if Labour aren’t a threat to the Tories, then they aren’t a threat to the Indy cause!
@Socrates MacSporran says: 26 September, 2018 at 7:58 am:
” … Your point is fine, in theory, but, in practice – how does the SNP persuade “a biased press” to print their defence of the biased attack?”
Very big nail hit on the head there, Socrates –
Ye can take a
horsePress release to thewaterMSM but you cannot make thehorseMSMdrinkprint it.Personally the only reward I want for my unstinting efforts on behalf of Independence, my current 6 week plan considering the losses made by them to own 28 newspaper titles for the princely or vice-presidently (depending on preference) sum of £1 each, the 628,392 people I personally single-handed with one tied behind the back will have converted to a YES according to the schedule of 14th March 2019 for Indy Ref 2 which I will persoanlly supervise in all its 4,132 polling stations, the 77,777 trolls I will have uncovered and the 132 million approximately words I will have wrote on behalf of it, is to see Scotland Independent around 35 years before I pop my clogs, if I eat healthily and do a little exercise.
Mind you, if someone filthy in fact obscenely rich wants to give me 1p Scots per word what I wrote I can retire early …
@Robert
I posted the petition support request from Martin Keatings a week or so ago only to have some wingers saying “we don’t need one” etc etc
Here’s the link for the petition once again for anyone who has read link to archive.is and now understands why we do need to request a section 30 order
link to forwardasone.scot
I think I’m right in saying the AUOB march can still go through Holyrood Park. If so, just make it a very deliberate, slow and, at that point, very loud march.
@yesindyref2 11:17am
Cheque’s in the post.
Edinburgh March
The March is the most important thing.
It’s a pity about the stalls but there is nowhere other than Holyrood Park to end the Rally.
Anyway there are lots of mounds and rocks in the park perfectly suitable for groups of people to gather round while speakers with portable sound systems tell us what they think. No permission neede.
The Covenanters used rocks as pulpits in the 17th century. That would work.
I’ll be there regardless.
Well the Starmer buzz didn’t last long. Labour’s intent to hold every possible position on Brexit without actually leading on anything is exhausting to watch. I can’t imagine what it is like to actually front up as an activist.
@sassenach says: 26 September, 2018 at 9:05 am:
” … With the press and broadcasters so greatly antagonistic to all things Indy, it is sometimes very difficult to see how we can ever ‘win’. Yet, for all that, it appears that support for Indy remains quite firm.”
It is better than that, sassenach. One of the largely unreported news items suppressed by the antagonistic media is the slow but ever growing movement of the Scottish electorate towards independence. Wasn’t there some opinion polls a few weeks ago that went almost unreported that showed independence clearly ahead?
Thing is that the reactions of the antagonistic media can only take two directions and both reactions are positive for independence.
If the antagonistic media continue to fails to report the swing to independence the slow but sure trend will continue because voters are now aware the trend is going unreported by the antagonistic media.
If the antagonistic media do report the growing trend toward independence the voters are encouraged so the result is the same and the trend continues. The only downside is the voters are not aware just how far in front the indy vote already is – and thus they do not become complacent and stop campaigning.
However, from the unionist POV it has them ramp up the lies, omissions biased and exaggerated propaganda that thus becomes even more detectable as lies, omission bias and exaggeration and thus easier to be seen as propaganda.
It’s a bit like a demented Jack Russel obsessed with catching its own tail – the faster it spins in attempting to catch the tail the harder it becomes for the Jack Russel to catch the appendage. I hope that description conjures up a wee mental picture of the unionists heads chasing their own unionist tails. Need I state which unionist party is the head and which is the tail being chased? Not to mention the wee arse that is at the base of that unionist tail?
@Dan Huil
Yay, celebration time!
Well, a few months to go yet I guess …
link to forwardasone.scot
This is of huge importance. But, it is quite a read, so if you don’t have time to read it, or are disinclined to read it for any reason, then take my word for it. I have read every single word, and the only conclusion that anyone doing the same can come to is that Nicola is on the right track and is doing the exact right thing on the question of the Referendum and Brexit. You can bet your house and life savings on it!
Stravaiger [ screw the stalls ] stalls play a important part of any march or rally , helping to fund Yes Groups/FoodBanks ect ect . The Wings stall for its part give out free information cards leaflets as it always does . Auob are a embarrassment to the Grassroots movement in the way they conduct themselves ie Gary J Kelly saying last week the stalls could be erected on the strip of land at the car park across from Parliament grounds ( accidents waiting to happen ) with people crossing busy roads .
There is NOW a new estimate on numbers 35.000 being the latest that could have been done from the start instead of inflating numbers but as I said in my last post Auob cause controversy to rile people up to increase attendance’s .
Stravaiger you might inform us as to what position or insight if any U have in Auob or just adding your tuppence worth as a uninformed supporter of Auob .
@manandboy
Each of us does what we can for the indy cause. I do my wee bit behind the keyboard and I can and do talk the hind legs off any doubters I happen to meet 🙂
I’ve visitors staying at the moment hence morning links are a little late due to late nights. Never too old to party!
I will carry on linking for as long as possible which hopefully won’t be for much longer. I would like to get back to some kind of normality as I’m sure we all would.
Fireproof Jim @ 11.37
The march may be the important thing,but toilets and first aid stations are a bit essential too!.
I’ll take bets that marchers will no be allowed into the local facilities either!!
Not forgetting,this would have been a huge fund raiser for for the stalls…
Having said that even I could have told AUOB that anything with a sniff of politics about it is forbidden by HES.
So I guess the real question is why did this information only come out now….. Edinburgh Council could have told the organisation this at the start of the application,did they just hand out a permission form for HES and sit back waving through the march knowing fine well HES had to refuse ??
There’s many ways to block a movement!!!
@Nana
Heh! Quite the selection Nana. Couple of standouts in the independent piece on repeating historic errors and the Scotsman comment on FOA’s support of the FMs approach to Brexit.
Sadly, I think the masses are beyond the point of listening. Said for a long time now that this is going to have to run its course and/or burn itself out. Whichever analogy works (shrugs).
The meeja and political class have a runaway narrative. It was started and promulgated by a few, to benefit a few and they were quite aware of the chaos that would ensue. They have and had no interest in managing the chaos they created either. Just light the blue touch paper and stand back till it was all over.
When the dust settles though? People really should be reminded why they came to that place. Their political class, their practice of politics and a very willing section of the media.
Good grief! Voilet Elizabeth-Bott is all excited about the new pass. He/she (don’t want to gender identify and annoy anyone) is just screaming and screaming, perhaps (he)she’ll make her(him)self sick.
@Nana says: 26 September, 2018 at 11:26 am:
” … I posted the petition support request from Martin Keatings a week or so ago only to have some wingers saying “we don’t need one” etc etc”
I think you misunderstand the claim, “We don’t need one”, Nana.
We don’t need a petition for I’m certain that Nicola, the SG and the SNP are very well aware of what they are doing and are very much sure to do it and will do it at the correct time.
It doesn’t mean we do not need to request a Section 30 for has not Nicola already made the first step by requesting one and got the exact reply she expected to get from Theresa May. Mad did not refuse the request she just said, “Not Now”, which is exactly what the FM wanted her to say.
I may be wrong, but I believe it to be a bad thing to publicise the SG’s apparent tactics – you do not send a message to your enemy of what your next move will be. However, you do need to be sure your own side are not acting against you because they don’t know what you are doing. There is a big difference between, “Not legally needing a Section 30 Order to legally hold a referendum,” and it, “Not being a good tactical move to request a Section 30 Order”. Put another way the SG needs no one’s legal permission to hold a referendum but it is a great tactical move to do so”.
The petition might alert Westminster to take evasive action.
Surprise is always a good tactic and wins many battles.
” … Here’s the link for the petition once again for anyone who has read link to archive.is and now understands why we do need to request a section 30 order.
link to forwardasone.scot
Re the AUOB, from what I understand of the independence demos in Barcelona they just fill the streets with people. They effectively bring the city to a halt. Ending up ‘kettled’ in field, out of sight, isn’t hitting hard where it counts. This might be an opportunity for a radical and constructive re-think.
Stuff the ‘wee Scotch lawyers’ on the council.
Liz g
Yes you are right. Didn’t think about toilets.
Well, I await the outcome. Is Calton Hill also embargoed? There have been lots of rallies held there in the past.
Isn’t the swashbuckling ‘historian’, him of the swishy flowing locks, on the board of Historic Scotland, along with other place-men/women/other?
The SG announced they would be seeking a Section 30 last year, then didn’t. Anyone know why not?
If the answer is the GE, then I don’t see what difference that made.
Asking for a Section 30 ASAP with expiry date 6 May, 2021 makes perfect sense to me since the current Parliament has a cast iron democratic mandate to call an IndyRef. It can be used when SG/Parliament decides there is Brexit clarity, which of course means what the SG decides it means.
As is being pointed out elsewhere, the value of asking for a S30 is perhaps that the Tories will delay or deny which would be a massively undemocratic move of their part.
@Ronnie Anderson
I have no bun in your fight with AUOB. I have no connection with them at all. I’m merely stating my opinion that it’s a good route and we should not let it be messed with for some petty reason.
Maybe I’m just getting fed up with being told what to do and am getting a bit bolshy. I’m Scottish so I can’t help it 😉
@Ottomanboi
Yes, that’s kinda where I’m coming from.
Robert the Bruce didn’t call off the Battle of Bannockburn because there were no toilets.
Defo no he is not he is on another Nazi Organisation called The National Trust.
@ Galamcennalath – the Michael Keating article linked to above spells out the timeline for what is happening. He says that Nicola Sturgeon did write to Theresa May requesting a Section 30 order but Theresa May did not reply.
Extremely rude but then they are a rude bunch of chancers.
“I may be wrong, but I believe it to be a bad thing to publicise the SG’s apparent tactics – you do not send a message to your enemy of what your next move will be.”
Indeed. But there’s a good bit more to this strategy that is not being placed in the public domain and I suspect Mr Keating knows what it is but is keeping it well under wraps. As well he should.
My lips are sealed. The SG absolutely know how best to ‘play ‘ the situation and are doing it masterly, step by step by step.
Ta for correction Lenny. National ‘Trust’!
“Anyway I’m probably still wasting my time for these people seem rather disinclined to accept any reasoned arguments in their eagerness to see the whole SNP/SG strategy thrown away by premature actions. They will probably never read:-“
I read it Robert, but I still have serious reservations.
Not to go into detail, because people won’t read it, but I fail to understand why the Section 30 path towards a referendum, and all the arguments about injustice when it’s refused etc, etc, is pursued to the exclusion of all other strategies. As a strategy, it is linear, one dimensional, and dangerously close to having all our eggs in one basket. God willing Plan A won’t fail, but what is Plan B if it does?
I DO get it that the SNP wants to be uber-cautious, and choose the path towards Independence of which any Librarian would be proud, but jeezo, it’s a slow and joyless trial-by-endurance.
Sooner or later, whether it’s a referendum, Constitutional Law Court, repeal of the Union, the issue of Scotland’s deliverance from this Union must and will go back to the people. It’s very possible, indeed likely, that events could move very fast, and we will require those people to be more animated and motivated than we were in 2014…. NOT exasperated, disillusioned, and resentful of a leadership which refuses to take the lead. In what possible respect does that help our cause? We need people enthused, motivated and buoyed up like 2014, not bored, anaesthetised, and disinclined to vote.
If we truly are being wily and sophisticated, then why does it read to so many people as being pedestrian, myopic and timid?
A couple of links:
link to craigmurray.org.uk
(shows up Guardian as a pure establishment mouthpiece).
link to zerohedge.com
“I may be wrong, but I believe it to be a bad thing to publicise the SG’s apparent tactics – you do not send a message to your enemy of what your next move will be.”
I’d agree with that principle.
It also requires a great deal of trust and patience from an electorate that has been hard won over Robert. Folk that have every reason to be suspicious of any in the political class. They’ve only just had the scales removed in most cases and what they’re seeing today both enrages and scares the bejeebus out of them. A very human and understandable reaction.
You’re a long time political anorak. You know about the necessity for discipline, political strategy and such. Most folk, especially those either rediscovering an interest in politics or who simply want their government to work, don’t. They’re just folk who are impatient, frustrated and most importantly afraid. They’re just folk who see a bad situation developing around them and feel powerless to do anything about it. Mainly though, they’re just folk and a lot is being asked of them, especially in terms of patience.
I agree. I reckon the SG do have it in hand and I’d say they’ve got their hands full t’boot. 😀
Worth bearing in mind though, when we’re talking to people online.
Av heard it aw noo Indycar Gordon Ross ( forget standing on rock to speak) at Auob You’s can take a IrnBru crate an ah Megaphone , an no need of stalls we can do what the Usherettes did at the pictures go round with a tray selling merchandise lol
Theresa May announces end of Freedom of Movement, date tba.
Pressure, under pressure is the Nasty Party methinks.
I do not believe in armchair strategy for indyref2. We have a great leader of the party, and like all armies we must put faith in that leader to move us forward.
Since Nicola has led the party ,membership has risen. She is biding her time for the optimum moment. We should not kid ourselves that we think we know more than she does. She is dealing with a fully informed deck whilst we guess at what strategies and events will precipitate indy.
Faith is never misplaced with Nicola. She is a resolute and honest leader who makes decisions others often baulk at in the party.
That is a prerequisite of leadership I’m afraid.
Fireproofjim @ 12.31
I don’t know about Carlton Hill Jim.
All I do know is that Historic Scotland are not allowed to let their venue be used for anything political.
It’s not a new thing… in the sense that it’s just one of the many things they have rules about!
It might be like Ronnie said and be part of an engineered controversy…. because I cannot see how AUOB can claim the march isn’t political??
Of course it’s Political, that’s just a stupid position…
On the other hand I would want to know if and when Edinburgh Council and the Police, both of whom would know this fine well, told the organisers about this.
This park also has special rules around the British Royals and can be shut and cleared at short notice, so it’s not a place that I think should have been factored into planning anyway.
I would also ask that any Wingers who are contacting HES stay polite, the tone of the communication so far has been awful….. not a good look People… the staff getting the emails are not the ones who made these rules….
The rules cover ALL Historical monuments and our marches are UNUSUALLY peaceful and nondestructive…. the same cannot be said of others… that’s why there’s a blanket bann!
While I don’t necessarily agree with it… I do want these monuments protected….So…
Cool heads and solutions… like exploring things such as Carlton Hill … me thinks??
Ref Oct 6th Edi March #AUOB
link to t.co
This is a pinned Tweet for last 2 hours, dated 26th Sept (today)
My Q is simply why has it taken this long for a statement to be issued, if this is POLICY.
I assume most of us can guess the answer.
I’m not surprised really that the Independence movement has had another obstacle erected in front of it at the last minute. The organisers can keep making last minute apepals but you have to assume that will be be without success.
So why not a proposal to have the stalls set up in Princess Street Gardens before the march? Not ideal but they’ll be thousands gathering there hours before the march starts and it will take a long time to empty.
In an ideal world I’d prefer the route be reversed staring at Holyrood and finishing in the gardens, I can see why the powers that be might not have been attracted to that idea though LOL.
The most important thing is that the march IS going ahead, hope to see you there. Be early, there’s going to be a party 🙂
@Ronnie Anderson –
We can take turns holding the corner poles and shuffling in very small circles while you do your stuff.
😉
galamcennalath @ 11:15,
HandandShrimp @ 11:40,
Yes, the Starmer interlude does seem to have been a brief flash in the pan. There was some Labour dork on the R4 lunchtime news today explaining that they want to have a GE so they can do a better Brexit! I kid you not. (McCluskey’s obviously been on the phone to Agent JC again.)
He warned that the Tories are taking us over the cliff edge. Labour obviously have a better cliff edge to offer. =sigh=
It also seems they believe they can have their own very special customs union, not yer normal everyday Customs Union, of course. (Y’know, the one everyone else has.) Cake possessing and eating is just as much a Labour fantasy as a Tory one, it seems.
Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Barnier gently puts the Leavers’ Saviour right when they meet next week!
I truly pity the English. The only political choice they have on this issue is between two variants of the selfsame exceptionalist idiocy.
High time to bail.
Thanks BTW, nana for referencing that petition for a Section 30 order. Keating’s article made a lot of sense. I think we’ll need to get that ball rolling in fairly short order now. Getting time to up the ante.
A bit O/T, but not much as Nana supplied the original Link to the twitter question….
So, Ruth Davidson appeared on lbc this morning.
How much of an easy time was she given over the one hour program by Iain Dale?
Did he ask ANY of the requested questions from the twitter link below?
link to twitter.com
The march and rally’s named organiser, Gary Kelly of AUOB, said: “We are an avowedly non-party political organisation, and though we obviously campaign for independence, surely we have as much right as anyone to use on a very temporary basis what is, after all, the land of the sovereign people of Scotland.”
Gary J Kelly has repeatedly said that Auob are non political , yes they were non political 2 weeks ago at Buchanan st stall with their Solidarity flag .
The reasoning behind Auob staging at Holyrood parliament is for Tommy Sheridan to rant about implementation of the mandate . Solidarity have long since wanted to control the Grassroots movement Auob are that arms length body .
Ian Brotherhood Whit dey you want ah Choc Ice or ah Mivvi oh fur fek saky ah need tae go back tae the stock room ah furgoat the Popcorn lol.
In his keynote speech the Anointed Great Leader Jeremy mentioned Scotland, where the local branch is bringing ‘hope’ to the despairing populace. Aren’t we lucky!
Sorry there has been some turmoil over the end point for the upcoming AUOB march. But you have to put things in perspective. We have a longstanding family occasion for all that weekend, so I just groaned when they announced the Edinburgh date, because I had especially wanted to add that one to my “campaign medals”.
So puir all of us and lucky all of you, since it’s going to be great fun, with a great turnout anyway, isn’t it?
(I don’t suppose they would still be willing to shift the date to the weekend after, would they…? =twitch eyebrows=)
It doesn’t help Mark McDonald that nature hasn’t blessed him with a nicer demeanour. The news reports were accompanied by footage of him scowling and skulking along the Holyrood corridors whereas Miles Briggs looks like a happy, cheery guy. And I speak as someone who has had complete strangers tell him to cheer up. Like McDonald, I have that kind of face!
I recently quit as an SNP member, nothing to do with Alex Salmond. I have to say I have been very disillusioned with the party over their treatment of Michelle Thomson, their repeated failure to stand up for themselves against the media and their couldn’t care less attitude to animal welfare, encapsulated by Fergus Ewing’s insistence earlier this year that Scotland wouldn’t even consider stopping the live transport of animals.
@Ronnie Anderson –
5 Woodbine?
@ ronnie anderson 2.07. Plenty opportunities for creativity and to stick 2 fingers up to the authorities. Instead of stalls use barrows to sell merchandise. Spivs with large overcoats sold merchandise during the war, so we can do the same. If they want us to leave the park we can all just sit down, Speakers can stand on milk crates and shout or use megaphones. It worked for Major and Murphy, so we can do the same. If the Polis want to intervene,they might just find a few thousand people innocently blocking their passage.
All good fun, as long as we stay within the law.
Beware of people and organizations that claim to be ‘non-political’, just scratch the surface and you’ll get politics a-plenty, usually of the opposing, status quo supporting sort.
Everything in Scotland is political now.
@galamcennalath says: 26 September, 2018 at 12:41 pm
The SG announced they would be seeking a Section 30 last year, then didn’t.
Far as I’m aware May simply said, “Not Now”, in other words she did NOT say no but refused it for the time being. Which is highly likely exactly what Nicola wanted her to say.
Nana posted a link upthread that explains the whole thing in great detail. It is long and involved but is really quite easy to understand. Here is the link:-
link to archive.is
You will get an explanation of what a section 30 order really is and not what the MSM and Westminster wants you to think it is.
What it is NOT is Westminster’s permission to hold a referendum. The whole article is long, but quite clear and easy to understand, and explains the reason that Nicola is not treating this matter like the bull at a gate some people would like her to do. If she did it could set back independence for decades or even forever.
“You’ll have had your tea!” as far as Holyrood’s concerned. I wonder if some official approached Bonnie Prince Charlie & his heavily-armed retinue to ask if this was political when they occupied the park? What’s up with the “Meadows!” anyhow?
Thepnr @ 2:35 pm
Re- the AUOB march in Edinburgh: what is this about Princes Street Gardens you mention?
No mention of the Gardens here: link to facebook.com : according to this, the march is from Johnston Terrace to Holyrood Park. Or have the arrangements changed?
(If the Facebook info is right, then the tourists thronging the Royal Mile will be in for a treat: pity the locals, the voters, thronging Princes Street may be left blissfully unaware – unless we all shout out VERY loudly on the day!)
The Scotsman reports today that the SNP will not oppose a second referendum on the EU. In truth if Westminster decide to have a second vote then the SNP opposing it wouldn’t stop it going ahead of course and they would have been left looking rather stupid since they would appear to be opposing the only possibility of nullifying the original vote or at least providing an opportunity for a Norway type deal.
I don’t understand though why they have shown their hand at this stage, I can’t see any need to have done so unless it is some kind of attempt to put pressure on Theresa May but that seems unlikely as if she would be likely to listen.
link to archive.fo
So something is at play here, you don’t do this without a reason. I guess things are hotting up at the coalface which will make for much turmoil, frothing and merriment too.
We are getting down to the endgame and as an interested observer I’m finding it great fun to watch. The serious business of working for Independence for Scotland isn’t too far away I would imagine, the more fireworks now the better as far as I’m concerned. Chaos in the Red and Blue Tory parties won’t do our cause any harm.
You can do your bit too, get along to Edinburgh on the 6th, let’s have a show of strength that will make the British Nationalist parties tremble 🙂
harry mcaye @ 15:12,
I’m not a member of the SNP (or any other party), Harry, so maybe it’s not my place to say, but there’s no way any umbrella pro-independence party could possibly satisfy every political aspiration of every indy supporter. We have to be realistic, it’s just not humanly possible.
Politics as it normally works isn’t possible right now. That’s just a fact. Everything under the Sun has become political at the moment, so we have to choose the ground on which to fight. Once that is won, as we all hope it will, and not long now, we can return to some kind of normality and be able to judge support for our individual preferences.
Your comment does however highlight the risk that the longer we wait to act, the more likely it will be that some issue will arise that offends or upsets people. That is the inevitable nature of politics. The SNP doesn’t have any more monopoly on power than its Lab-Lib predecesssor, even though it is clearly far more competent.
Membership of the SNP is your free choice to make, of course, but let’s not place unnecessary obstacles in our way. I’m sure you also realise that indy “a la carte” won’t get us there.
@Stravaiger / @Ottomanboi
It’s peaceful and law-abiding is the theme, a reason why you only get a couple of polis at any event basically, and they turn up to have a blether.
@Fergus Green “If the Polis want to intervene . . .”
The Polis aren’t allowed to be part of political parties (they can vote of course), or campaign politically. It’s just a guess, but I’d say the Polis are well over 50% YES, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they’re as much as 75%.
So why piss off and fight wth YES voters?
@ harry mccaye
Horses are transported live for competitions every day of the week all throughout the UK, Ireland, Europe and beyond. Where is the outrage there? (Often far longer journey times than cattle or sheep). Is it ok because they have blankets and leg protectors?
A ban on live transport of farm animals would seriously affect all our farmers, not least our island farmers. (Do you know how many islands there are in Scotland?)
As for animal welfare, you may care to note that there is currently a Scottish Government consultation on the regulations for breeders of domestic animals.
Farm animals are heavily regulated as to their welfare here in Scotland. Without it we would not be able to demand such a high premium for our beef & lamb.
@stewartb
Yes apologies as the route has definitely changed from that originally advised. I can’t find the facebook page that gave the original route but you can see it at the website below which has been the same for weeks now.
link to united4yes.org
It seems now that it will start from the same location as the march in 2013. A chance to play this again which is well worth a watch. Nicola and Humza leading the way.
The next in Edinburgh will be at least 3 times the size 🙂
link to youtube.com
@yesindyref2
I totally agree. I don’t believe I said or implied anything else.
See you all there. I’ll be the one waving the large Saltire. 🙂