Wings Over Scotland

Even back then… the ‘slippery slope’ to independence. You ever wonder if they stood back from their writing at some point and thought ‘that’s maybe not going to come out too well’?

TBF there has been a slippery slope in all sorts of ways. Simply not the one they imagined.

So let’s just have a vote in Holyrood on independence. If Holyrood indy majority is then backed with a WM Scot MP majority, then Scotland dissolves the Union.

The Tories state that the snp and labour were doing secret deals. Surely it was the Tories libdems and labour.
Tories lying again. Who would have thought it.

@Proud Cybernat

at first I would have said yes we already have both so we’re good to go

then I thought ah but Catalunya

then, finally, I figured but Spain is still an EU member whereas the UK… not so much si we’re all the way back to “good to go” WITH EU support just as soon as we hit that cliff edge 🙂

It goes to show the sneakiness of unionistsi in those days, that the Devolution Referendum was in 1997, but the Scotland Act wasn’t finally put together till 1998, a year later.

1997 Devolution Referendum result: YES 74.6%, NO 25.4%. BUT for tax-varying powers: YES 64.0%, NO 36.0%. And curiously that 64% has been the sum of Indy + more powers (devo-max) since the devolution referendum, in most polls and social attitude surveys (Scotcen).

That means to me that perhaps people didn’t really know the details of those “tax-varying” powers, and expected more at the time, and perhaps felt cheated when they found it was just 1p in the £ on top of income tax – not REAL tax-varying powers.

There’s some support for that idea of voter ignorance looking at the 1979 Devo Ref, where there were a lot of activists for NO who wanted devolution but were convinced that the proposed Bill “Wasn’t a good deal”. To be blunt I knew absolutely no details of the Bill other than it was for Devolution, a step forward, something that could be worked on, improved, and ultimately end up with Independence, so I campaigned for a YES vote then, arguing with those who thought it was a bad deal, what I’d say was “Take what you can, and improve on it”.

And the thing is that Devolution should never have been set in stone as a one-off settlement, it should have evolved every 2 or 3 years, a little power here, a tweak there. That didn’t happen until the SNP minority Government in 2007 scared the pants off the unionists and they came up with – Calman – which in itself got watered down into the Scotland 2012 Act – same as Smith did in the 2016 one.

Scotland has a history of having been cheated by the very parties who want to keep Scotland in the Union, and the curious thing is that the more they do that, the more the support for Independence rises. Us Scots ain’t stupid.

So basically Unionists are suffering the just fate of their own cowardice in not having given devolved Scotland more, much more, like FFA.

Sorry, I think it was up to 3p on top, not 1p. Derisory powers anyway, kind of like giving Holyrood some chewing gum and duck tape to repair the economy. Bar stewards.

@Hamish100: “but then we need to win this time so timing is everything”

I agree with “timing is everything” which is why we have to wait until the terms of Brexit are clear. I.e. autumn this year at a push, but more likely spring of 2019.

The possible 1 year 9 month transition period might change the timing, as long as it’s sure Scotland can take advantage of an extension to that 1 3/4 year UK transition for a period of our own while we decide (another Ref) EU / EFTA+EEA / nothing.

I don’t agree at all with “we need to win this time” – we can never be sure, even if the opinion polls showed 75% YES, that could change. Just as the current 47-49% YES can change with an actual campaign.

And if we lose this one, then there will be another one. And another one. And another one ad infinitum.

Ok, let’s say I’m a diehard Unionist (which I’m not, but bear with me just for the sake of the argument). I feel that the Union has been a win-win in the past but it needs refreshing somewhat now (“now” being 1997). I can see that the Scots are ready and willing to make the change that was sneakily denied them in 1979.

I’m secure in my beliefs, so I don’t buy this craven “slippery slope” argument. I look around the world and see plenty of examples of federal constitutions to draw inspiration from, many of which were in fact drafted by British constitutional lawyers.

Consequently I re-cast the constitution of the whole UK to give Scotland its fair due, oh, and England+ its fair due also (even though the English don’t especially care, because they’re quite content with the status quo).

Future-proof the UK for the coming century against whatever stresses it will inevitably encounter in entering a new millennium. Sell it to people as a fresh start.

That’s how I do it if I’m confident in my beliefs and have the whole UK behind me with a large majority. I inspire confidence in Scotland and Scotland reciprocates. With full powers to exercise right from the get-go, Holyrood is fully occupied with evolving them, and the SNP dwindles to a small rump separatist hard core. The Union is refreshed and remains vigorous, and the economic situation re the various parts of the Federation is clear for all to see and appreciate.

What I don’t do is create a “glorified parish council” with just enough power to temporarily mollify the restless natives, and gloss it over with a pinched glib “devolution is a process, not an event” slogan, while keeping all real power back in London to override everything whenever the going gets a little sticky.

That’s what you do when you’re not confident in the Union, and not confident in your beliefs. That’s how the slippery slope really begins. And how it will inevitably escalate as reality begins to sink in all round.

The Union is doomed because its own adherents don’t believe in it themselves. That’s why they have to lie and dissimulate. They’re so much in denial that they’re probably even fooling themselves.

Nice to see that Michael Ancrum Opposition Constitutional Affairs spokesperson, like all Tories back then,as in today, was unable to distinguish between the country of United Kingdom and the island of Britain, or British Isles if you prefer. 😀

An interesting post Robert J Sutherland, “The union may be doomed because it’s own adherents don’t believe in it themselves”.I think perhaps too much of a generalisation.

My view is that the top tier really wealthy Unionists don’t believe in anything other than wealth, and wherever the current capitalist system exists suits them just fine – Britain, Monaco, Barbados, or wherever.And then there was Africa, until the natives got restless.

Then you have the house Unionists, five bedroom house,steady job, two cars, roast beef on Sunday brigade,and so yes they will cling loyally to the Union until Brexit puts their middle class existence in jeopardy.

Finally you have the BBC Question Time audience. You might even get a “What Union?” from most of them if you asked about the UK’s make-up.I wager many believe Scotland is a region of England, and by whatever means this occurred doesn’t concern them, it just means that their England is bigger, greater they believe.

The responses of these BBC QT audiences does not surprise me. I’ve had them work for me over the years.

“Ministers … are confident that, with more than three-quarters of Scots supporting unionist parties, there is little chance that a Scottish parliament, elected by proportional representation, would vote to go it alone.”

Aye, right. They tried to fix it that:

1) Devolution would kill (Scottish) nationalism stone dead
2) There would be a Labour Government in perpetuity at Holyrood

Didn’t quite work out like that, did it?

And looking how far we’ve come from 25% supporting independence to today … despite everybody and everything, we’re still here. And then some!

RJS at 5.30.
I like your analysis, pretty spot on.

velofello @ 18:25,

Of course in any country there will always be reactionaries who are doing very well out of the current system, and who will resist any change that might disadvantage them. They will always have a political party to represent their interests (which for convenience we can call the Tory Party). And they always manage to corral a bunch of gullible people to act against their own best interests, sorry to say.

But the smart operators are the ones who can see that going along with changes that are almost certain to happen anyway is wise future -proofing. In that famous quote from Lampedusa’s The Leopard:

“Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga com’è, bisogna che tutto cambi.”

(If we want everything to remain the same, everything must change.)

That’s what a statesman (or woman) does when in charge, as opposed to a mediocre politician. Unfortunately, the UK hasn’t had one of the former for a long, long time. Currently Scotland is far better served, thankfully.

With Sinn Fein demanding a reunification vote for Ireland (anybody noticed the news hushing that one up)
and Brexit happening all we need is an announcement date for Indyref2 and the Unionists will have to fight battles on three fronts making it kinda obvious to undecideds they’re waiting for the wrong camp to make the wrong decisions

Again

This could be the opportunity

Oh how things stay the same in Britnat land. Keep doing what you are doing British nationalists, and you will be free of having to subsidise Scotland sooner than you think. 🙂

O/T

Re, the fishing boat that the UKgov refuse to fund recovery of the poor men who have died, what an utter utter disgrace that thy won’t even fund this, it is a miniscule amount that they are wholly legally and morally responsible for. I remember when a fishing boat went down off the west coast, years ago, and hearing that sometimes it could be UKgov MOD subs that snag the nets, dragging the boats under before they have any chance at all. Horrific.

The UKGov, and their BritNat MPs are a disgrace, no morals, no conscience and unethical. Sickening, truly sickening.

…slow internet and now Wings Twitter is down.

hmmm. What’s going on?….

Something on the side, Rev?

link to wingsover.com

Early daws for O/T but going to risk it.

1000 folk could turn up for a peaceful demo at Pathetic Quay and no one would hear about it unless there was ‘manufactured’ violence.

1000 road bridges over motorways and dual carriageways could be used to show Indy support locally all across Scotland.

Millions would see us and we wouldn’t have to travel hundreds of miles!

Just a thought.

Hi frogesque.

I don’t think it needs to be limited to the M8. On the same day, it could be done on EVERY major thoroughfare – the M8 from end to end, the M80, M9, A9, M90, A90, A92, M74, M77, A7, A68(?) and so on.

Who’s gonna take on the mantle of co-ordination?

People say, the time is right, the time is not right (to vote for independence). We have to wait, we have to seize the moment etc.etc. convince the unconvinced. JC after all this time and with the evidence staring us in the face,austerity measures,sanctions on the poor and disabled, SNHS under extreme pressure people dying in hospital corridors in England ,zero hour contracts, state pension age being raised to 70,workers employment rights being threatened by brexit , All this in front of our eyes. If not now, When the fcuk will Scots ever be ready to stand on their own two feet and vote for independence .FFS Scotland grow a fcuking pair. And take your Destiny into your own hands.

I see Scotland, the north of Ireland and Wales are to be force-fed lectures on brexit devolution from someone called David Lidington MP [commander of the british empire] presumably because he voted Remain and that should calm the natives.

We should be ready to tell this britnat brexit liar to piss off.

Hamish100,

“Let more doubts enter the minds of those uncertain of independence and they will begin to realise the brits nays have failed.”

They sure will.

In 622 years’ time.

The most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.

Has Nicola managed to flog her dead horse yet – a separate deal for Scotland in the EU?

In 622 years’ time.

The most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.

Has Nicola managed to flog her dead horse yet – a separate deal for Scotland in the EU?

Ultimately we have no real idea what’s going to happen in the next 6 UKOK months, let alone the next 600 England rules Scotland years to come, for Scots, under toryboy rule of Scotland.

But no doubt 600 more years of beeb Scotland gimp rule/brainwashing, will make sure we like it like this, if we’ve not all been incinerated in the next great UKOK nuke wars to come, sorry, victorious Strong and Stable BetterTogether UK wars to come.

link to uk.businessinsider.com

The Bridges – an idea whose time has come.

The Tories have offered Scotlands fishermen a new deal post Brexit
One in every five fishermen are to be executed leaving the other four to catch as many fish as they want

Pens in hand and gagging for it Scottish fishermen rushed to sign up shouting *last one’s a deidy*

In other news today in a whistle stop tour of Penicuik Miners welfare Germy Corbyn challenged the SNP for not using the powers of the Scottish parliament that Labour voted AGAINST and PREVENTED Scotland having to bring to an end the suffering the Tories have inflicted on the poor which Germy Corbyn voted WITH the Tories FOR, but he did eat a pie and promised to come back and maybe eat another pie someday

In a speech to a packed pub of his own supporters Germy promised to take credit for things he hadn’t done and factory jobs he didn’t save
His supporters pushed their microphones and cameras into his face for more quotes but he was whisked away by some Labour party people on to his next venue which was the same place he was already in

Some interesting economic statistics in this link, showing Scotland and its cities doing well in a U.K. context. Note that in this statistic, it was only London and the South east of England that were above the ‘U.K. average’. So, something to bear in mind the next time you hear Scotland being compared to the ‘U.K. average’. For any comparison to make sense, Scotland should be excluded from the ‘U.K. average’.

link to ons.gov.uk

“In Scotland, productivity in 2016 was marginally below the UK average, whilst in Wales and Northern Ireland, productivity was 17% below the UK average. The regions of the north and Midlands of England (North East, North West, Yorkshire and The Humber, East Midlands and West Midlands) had productivity levels between 7% to 15% below the UK average.”

OT – defence
An interesting article in UKDJ by a guest contributor from the Human Security Centre (a new one on me) about the GIUK and Baltic defence, in terms of the UK (and US) not doing a lot just now.

link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The GIUK gap will, of course, be renamed the GIS gap in 2021. And Scotland will have to join the back of the queue for joining NATO, it’ll take years and years. Yeah, right, GTF!

Links

link to snp.org

link to indyref2.scot

Removing the Sharp Edges from Brexit: A Third Sector in Scotland Perspective
link to scer.scot

bbc-scotlands-shameless-attempt-to-scare-with-claim-that-scottish-hospital-has-cladding-similar-to-that-of-grenfell/
link to archive.is

link to alynsmith.eu

link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk

link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com

link to scottishlegal.com

link to republic.org.uk

Tariff-sabotage-free-market-extremists-hijack-brexit-trade-c
link to archive.is

link to uti.is

link to thelondoneconomic.com

velofello sat 6:25 pm

You wrote “Finally you have the BBC Question Time audience. You might even get a “What Union?” from most of them if you asked about the UK’s make-up.I wager many believe Scotland is a region of England, and by whatever means this occurred doesn’t concern them, it just means that their England is bigger, greater they believe.

The responses of these BBC QT audiences does not surprise me. I’ve had them work for me over the years”

… typical racial stereotyping of 50 odd million people from you vellofello. What is it about Scottish Independence supporters that makes them believe that their 1.5 million, are so “superior” to everyone else in the UK?

Do you really believe that morals, ethics, compassion and empathy are reserved traits of indy supporters? Do you?

Most people in England believe that SCottish voters were offered the opportunity to vote to leave the UK and for SCotland to have independence. Those voters decided, by majority, that they didn’t want that. As a result, people in SCotland, just like everyone else in the UK, are ultimately governed by the Westminster Parliament. A voter in SCotland has the same powers as me (well more actually) as an Englishman living in the South East of England.

You victimhood is only surpassed by your ignorance.

Thanks for all the mentions. We’ve got no objections to opening up YesM8 to all major thoroughfares. Visibility is great. The one thing I would say is that co-ordinating YesM8 is a big enough job without us taking on the whole of Scotland’s road network. If you want to expand on it, you’ll have our support and any advice we can give, but we’re stretched enough with the M8.
Good luck and feel free to get in touch on Facebook or Twitter. We’re not hard to find and we’ll respond quickly.

OT but can anyone explain to me the plethora of Scots reporters in Korea as opposed to the two who were used for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games?

Can anyone also explain the movie ‘Belle” where Scots were but barely mentioned when my understanding was that they were upfront and admirably ahead of the thinking of the time?

Nana , I don’t thank you often enough for your efforts , so a BIG thank you!

Macart , liked that article in the Irish Times – how I wish we had someone like that in the Scottish press.

@Dorothy Devine

Upon a time we did Dorothy. Ian Bell was a favourite of mine and his work is greatly missed. Especially these days. Maybe someday… we’ll see that kind of writer in the mainstream of an indy Scotland. In today’s climate though? I won’t be holding my breath.

@Sensible dave,

I think it is very clear when one set of people tell another set of people. “NO, you cannot have a vote to decide on your freedom”, that there is a problem.

Add to that the fect that a majority in England voted for isolationism, to remove themselves from European brotherhood because of immigrants and the need to “be in control”, whilst Scotland voted to maintain European connections it had for centuries before the Union, and you begin to see where the real problem lies.

If you cannot see that, it must only be because you do not wish to face the truth.

“Brexit is an authentic English Nationalist revolution” Irish Times.

Bill McLean says:
13 February, 2018 at 9:10 am

You wrote “Very few people that contribute to this site have feelings of “superiority” and your ignorant attempt to pursue a racist agenda is childish in the extreme.”

Wrong. It is very a consistent theme.

You wrote “You would not have to ask many people outside these islands who the most arrogant, nationalist and self-obsessed people in Europe are!”

… Oooops! You just did it – you fool!

On this occasion you have done it via a meme/straw man, however, the clear intent is to suggest that “europeans” (as a whole) think that the English (on the whole) are arrogant, nationalistic and self obsessed!

What part of the term “racial stereotyping” do you not understand?

If you believe that some commenters here on the Wings should be allowed to utter their xenophobic bile without others being allowed to challenge them, then I can see why you might defend them. I believe that the vast majority of folk in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are good and decent people. Many here on Wings don’t. They are quite happy to slag off and dismiss anyone and everyone that didnt vote indy – and, laughably, even though the vast majority didnt have a vote on the matter.

Come back to me when you have grown a brain.

Nana says

Tariff-sabotage-free-market-extremists-hijack-brexit-trade-c
link to archive.is

” Policy Exchange barely bothers to hide this bleak reality. “It would not necessarily be the end of the world if agriculture and manufacturing shrank further as a proportion of the economy,”

That sums up the Brextremists perfectly. That is where they are coming from, or where they think they are taking us.

“Thatcherism 2.0” the article describes it. Absolute sheer f’ing stupidity, more like it.

What isn’t mentioned, is that regulations and standards will be dropped in parallel. No long will we be able to shop with a reasonable degree of certainty that what we buy is safe and fit for consumption!

Where’s the lever for the ejector seat?

@Ken500

Here’s the gofund page

link to gofundme.com

Scot gov statement re The Nancy Glen
link to news.gov.scot

O/T,

I must ask, in all seriousness, are the Scotgov/SNP really going to allow Scotland to be taken out of the EU against its will? Time is somewhat running out to call a referendum. Am I the only person to notice?

“An Englishman living in the south east of England”

Comes on an Indy website to lecture us on our “victimhood”.

From a Scotsman living in the North of Scotland, I dont care what you think. You may as well be living on Easter Island.

Nana says

link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk

I have to agree completely with James Kelly.

Well I remember the last hustings for deputy. Then, I voted for the best candidate who was in my opinion Robertson. I was impressed by what the others said, policy wise, but that didn’t sway me.

This time there is only one big issue – the intertwined Brexit IndyRef2 situation. I will make my mind up based on the candidates’ attitudes to that alone.

I feel we are on the edge of success. We will never be given an opportunity quite as good. In fact, I also believe WM will conspire to ensure we never do get as good an opportunity ever again.

The BritNats let their guard slip after 2014 by completely screwing up the aftermath of IndyRef1. The SNP surged and we have a mandate for IndyRef2 if the BritNats screw up further. All the indications are that is exactly what they are about to do.

We have Indy support at 50:50 despite no YES campaigning and a great deal of NO activity. We have activists champing at the bit to give it their all.

We need the starting gun fired at just the right moment and that looks like being fairly soon.

Any swithering and we have lost, possibly forever.

All

If you would like further evidence, Dakk just wrote this above:

“You British Nationalist warmongers have no self awareness.Really have a thing for yourselves.”

Would anyone care to tell me to whom he is referring?

Its possible that I might be wrong, but I think he/she/it is inferring that everyone in the UK, other than SNP voters, are British Nationalist warmongers with no self awareness and that we have a thing for themselves.

The clear implication being that only SNP voters are good and decent people.

… which takes us back to my original comment about the SNP master race thing.

Bob Mack 10.33

Haha. Bob, you are beyond parody.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be claiming that the racial stereotyping is ok … because some racial stereotyping in some unidentified European newspapers agree with your personal racial stereotyping.

… give it up Bob. You are just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Relax everybody. English Nationalism does not exist. Official.

We imagined the whole thing. Yep everything we see and read from English posters on social media every day was a lie. We imagine we are told lies by the Unionist press. We imagine the Scottish government is being ignored. We imagined listening to our MP’s being ignored in Westminster.we imagined a right wing press in England driving the Brexit agenda. We imagined a young woman MP being killed by a right wing extremist. We imagined our budget is getting cut every year. We imagined new laws to restrict soil media, our main means of communication. We imagined 17 million English votes to cut us from Europe.

We create difficulties in viewing Brexit as a disaster, rather than see there is no problem. It’s all in our heads and our heads are faulty according to Dave.

Dave was not at George Sq. Dave has never had to listen to the racist bile spewed on our streets during the marching season,or during football matches. From who Dave? Have a guess. Yep, those who want England to remain the masters of Scotland.

Stereotypes? No reality Dave boy.

Even now, you with no horse in the Scottish independence debate, come here to advise us where we are going wrong.a little advice Dave. Butt out. Talk when you know what you are talking about ,otherwise shut the eff up.

Walk in my shoes before claiming to know my problems bud.

Just to be clear. I can honestly say that one of my best friends is English, and a nicer lady you couldn’t meet. She is also a member of the SNP. 🙂

2017
– Michael Ancrum, Donald Findlay, Peter Fraser.
– Who?

2037
– Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie, Richard Leonard.
– Who?

Bob Mack 11.02

Bob, I note you vain attempt to get back on the front foot.

Unless you are even more stupid than I thought, you should have understood that I have never sought to deny that different communities don’t have their loonies. You are one of the Indpendemce loonies but, fortunately, you are not an example of the typical Scot that voted for Independence.

Most pro indy supporters, I believe, are “normal” folk that voted for Independence for very positive reasons – not because of some antipathy towards the rest of the UK.

Does the EDL exist in England? Yes it does. How many peple think the way of the EDL in England. A relative handful of thugs and loonies. Probably about as many that think UDI (i.e. the oppression of the passive majority by an extremist minority) is the way forward for Scotland.

Again, your attempts to stereotype type Englishness based upon the utterances of a small number of people that are motivated to to contribute extreme thoughts on Social Media platforms speaks volumes Bob.

Are you really as thick as you appear to be Bob?

As a newspaper addict I have to say that the Daily Record is giving us a pretty fair shout at the moment. It was giving us a good and better coverage until that pathetic General Election campaign and result and it backed off but I’m sure it is watching political developments with interest again. Keep an eye on it.

It is also the only Scottish tabloid that actually is full of current Scottish content and news.

Watching Edinburgh lass, Elise Christie,doing the speed skating the butchers apron on her kit has the widest English cross yet.

Didn`t know that Marks & Spencer Bank was run/owned by the corrupt HSBC.

Sensible Dave
Abdulhaq is completely correct..
The United Kingdom was legally formed by the Parliamentary Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England in 1707.
England annexed Wales centuries earlier and Northern Ireland is a province.
Should Scotland leave, the United Kingdom ceases to exist.
You may not like it but those are the facts. Personally I don’t mind what they call the continuing state, but judging by the chauvinistic attitude of the Brexiteers, Little Britain may be appropriate.

Nana, I remember a friend of mine told me that her soon to be husband a junior doctor , was dumped in a bath of gentian violet the night before his wedding – juvenile enjoyment all round!

Macart , indeed I sadly miss Mr Bell too.

Mr thms, thanks for that – I had no idea we were so heavily involved. However , it does not excuse the plethora of non Scots involved in the Glasgow Commonwealth Games commentary.

I think we will find some extreme people in every political movement, the people who will say things like, all those people who voted no in the referendum are ("Tractor" - Ed)s, and all those that voted yes are idiots.
These people should be ignored at all costs because they do not represent the majority of sensible people anywhere.
In fact they actually don’t do their parties any favours, all they do is give ammunition to people who will say, you see what they are like, and you want to vote for people like that.
Well, people like that are not the majority,so anyone that tries to make political gain from the silly people who do these things will find that sensible people will just ignore them and go and see what the side they oppose is offering.
I will allways vote SNP as i am for independence, i will not make any excuses for being a total independence supporter, if anyone does not like it, tough, but don’t ever try to tell people like me about how great a union scotland is in, cause that would just be insulting our intelligence

Nana @ 9.43

I was on a driving holiday up the West coast one summer, a few years back. As i drove off the ferry at Mallaig, I noticed a blackening taking place. All you could see were feathers and black goo everywhere. Poor lad had been well and truly plastered with the stuff but all seemed to be enjoying it!!!

I still chuckle to think of the scene and hoopoe the tradition is still going strong.

I noticed a photo on the BBC website t’other day of a qualified Apprentice who was ‘graduating’ – looked much the same.

Great links Nana!

What is going or not going, on, is a worrying read.

“The uncertainty and political in-fighting in the Conservative government, and its erratic negotiating approach, is damaging the UK’s international reputation – including almost wiping out any trust on the EU27 side. It is damaging for the economy, for business, for investment plans, for a whole range of individuals and organisations (from universities to hospitals to charities) that work with and across the EU. It is also undermining the UK’s political processes and systems.

In the face of such extraordinary disarray on the part of the UK government, on issues that impact across the UK – creating the biggest systemic challenge in decades – the opposition Labour party is notably failing to hold the government to account. Its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, repeatedly chooses at Prime Minister’s questions not even to raise Brexit as an issue. Labour’s own deliberately ambiguous position underpins this democratic and political decay.

The Westminster system is, for now, failing.”

2014 Crash Gordon did promise Scots NO campers faster, safer, nicer change, in this farce union, with tory idiots like sensible Dave, calling all the shots for Scotland, from the south of England.

Bob Mack 11:46 am

You wrote “17 million EnglNders voted to leave Europe. Says it all Dave.”

…. You just can’t stop yourself spouting your b******t and revealing your very dark and perverted inner-self can you.

Let me do this slowly and think out loud and write as I do. What does Bob mean by Enlanders? Does he think that everyone that voted Leave is an “Englander”? Is he using the term as “Englander” as a pajorative for anyone (Scots, welsh, norther Irish) that voted Leave? Does he think that Leave voters only lived in England and were English. Does Bob know that if all SCots had voted Remain that we would be Remaining and I, as a Remainer would have won the vote?

Nah, Im over-thinking things. Bob is just a t**t

The union of 1707 was and utter disgrace and a betrayal of the scottish nation, it was not legal as the people of scotland did not agree to it.
A nation can only agree to change its status if every person in that nation votes to do so, otherwise its illegal and could never stand up to any kind of investigation .Alba Gu snooker loopy!

John H. says:

I can honestly say that one of my best friends is English, and a nicer lady you couldn’t meet. She is also a member of the SNP.

A lot of Scotland’s problems arise from being in Union with England. That’s not English folks’ fault, it’s ours for not getting our act together. Being anti Union in no way means anti English.

We all have English friends and I have never been to an SNP event and not heard English accents.

Collectively though, countries have general and widespread traits. In 2015 52% of English voters chose far right parties. I find that shocking. In 2014 55% of Scots voters chose to stay in the Union. I find that even more shocking!

We in Scotland who believe in something better need to work hard to achieve it. In England, I think decent fair minded folk have their work cut out too!

Bounce.

Early enough to go off topic yet? I was in Scotland for a Very knackering weekend and noticed that the Rosyth ferry signs up either side of the new bridge have had the grey paint that used to cover the Hillman Imp cleaned up. Does this mean what I think (and hope) it means? Not having to put up with the A1 to get ‘home’ would be worth it. Soooo, soooo worth it.

Bob

…. I don’t hate you Bob. I feel really sorry for you. You hang out in this echo chamber and come out with the rubbish you do and, because no one “corrects” you (because to do so would be considered treasonous by the loonies – and they would set about re-educating the poor soul that spoke the truth).

So, you will carry on spouting your hate and bile – and I might pop up every now and again and hold a mirror up to your ridiculousness.

Fortunately, I do not believe you speak for, or represent, the vast majority of pro indy supporters. The majority of those do not carry the hate that you do. They understand that it is up to the majority of Scottish voters to decide on these matters and they, like me, do not seek, to blame the “English” because of the result of the referendum.

I don’t suppose it has ever crossed your mind that more Scots might be inclined to vote for independence – if people like you were not seen as the personification of an extremist, antipathetic mindset that they might empower?

Who cares Dave ? What I do know is that we have the option of voting for our own independence, or the option of having the “reasonable” English public demanding we separate because we are spoiling their party..

Either way is good by me.

Right where were we?

Oh aye – wee flegs wi’ pictures on. Although I saw one possibly two saltires in those photos, plus maybe a saltire brolly? Wiz that a black watch coat the wee lassie had on?

Jeesh! What do they think we are?

If you feel to reply to certain people, this is an appeal from me, don’t refer to them by the full name, as he is anything but that, especially the first part.
Don’t be fooled by him sometimes putting the words together.

Just Vote YES next time.

Heedy Spouts (as if he han’t read anything previously in the thread) …

So in summary, for the majority of Scots, voting tory is deeply immoral and that’s an interesting kick off point in any progress towards understanding English nationalism.

Heedy’s view is that 42.4% of voters in England are immoral.

What about the Red Tories Heedy? You normally dish it out to them too. You could then get well up to 80% of despicable Englanders. WHy dont you throw the lib dem voters under the bus too. What about the SCots Labour and conservative voters?

So many immoral and despicable people Heedy.

.. Wait a minute! All that could be true … but isnt it more likely that you are just a d**k head”?

@Dr Jim 1:02pm

But Jim, there is a Britnat empire, Empire2.0, or there soon will be an empire again. Any second now. I mean rabid British nationalists wouldn’t lie to us, would they?

.. Wait a minute! All that could be true … but isnt it more likely that you are just a d**k head”?

Could be sensible d, could be. But I do have a sense of morality and that’s why voting tory is immoral.

Its also a very clear English national characteristic too sensible d.

Maybe its all about word definitions sensible d.

NOUN plural moralities
noun

Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.

Red tory voters also ran out of excuses sensible d. The now filthy rich Crash Gordon, Bomber Blair’s New Labour wars on hot countries, that they assumed would be crushed under the might of UKOK weaponry, vomiting hundreds of billions on City spivs, all out red tory war on Scotland’s nascent democracy, their historic The Vow shyst etc.

Every day of our Scottish lives, BBC Scotland rage at Scots like me, SNP out, Vote SLabour sensible d.

Immoral or moral?

Youre right though sensible d, Jezza Corbyn’s an awful example of immorality himself. Look at his horrific hypocrisy on England’s WMD’s, dumped in Scotland, because no matter how much England wants WMD’s, you certainly do not want to store them anywhere near you do you sensible.

How moral of Head of CND Jezza, sensible d.

link to cnduk.org

link to labourcnd.org.uk

JEREMY CORBYN
POSTED ONOCTOBER 7, 2017
“We need to avoid a nuclear apocalypse” – Corbyn statement on Nobel peace prize

link to theguardian.com

Corbyn restates Labour’s commitment to Trident following shadow cabinet row.”

You can do this all day sensible d.

Yes, we know, Silence! annoying Scottish types, English tories, red and blue know what’s good for you, you’re a region of greater England and always will be, because, just because.

Prince Harry and his unfortunate deluded fiance Meghan Markle visited Edinburgh today and according to the BBC National news that shows “How important Scotland is to the Royal Family”

Well that all sounds lovely

Except,,, most of the people who turned out to see this Royal event were tourists who weren’t even aware a visit was scheduled they were just there for the one o’clock gun and a wee look at the castle, actual Scottish supporters of the Royals were thin on the ground even though the free flags were hurriedly distributed this turnout strongly resembled a Germy Corbyn visit

Security for this Royal event could have been provided by the Brownies there were so few in attendance to secure, but nevertheless the Televisual media did their level best to maintain tight shots so as not to give the public the correct impression that not many actual Scottish people in actual Scotland give a toss

I don’t believe in any way that this is a reflection on the young Royal couple and I don’t believe Scots don’t wish them well but I do believe the state of Scotlands new political choices and decisions point to a new direction in Scottish society that is consciously removing itself from the British Nationalistic identity culture that is England

I’m really disappointed with some of the guff (Police Scotland – institutionalised dysfunctionality) that MacWhirter has been spouting recently. Iain MacWhirter’s latest article is full of ‘discrepancies’. It’s clear that he hasn’t done his homework and is totally biased in dumping blame for the Gormley / Flanagan fiasco onto Michael Matheson.

How he can defend Mr Gormley is beyond me – ”Gormley was one of the most senior policemen in the entire UK, decorated by the Queen, who specialised in combatting terrorism and organised crime. If he is forced out through unsubstantiated charges of gross misconduct, then it doesn’t take Inspector John Rebus to tell you that there’s something fishy going on in Police Scotland.”

Gormley wasn’t forced out. The wimp or fly man just walked away, with all investigations against him being dropped, and left Matheson to take the flack. Strange behaviour don’t you think, fishy even, coming from someone who specialised in combatting terrorism and organised crime?

‘Iain Macwhirter: ‘This is no way to run an amusement arcade let alone a nation’s police force.’

link to heraldscotland.com

…………………………………….

Lesley Riddoch is another. This is a response to one of her articles from Dr Guro Huby
Senior Researcher, University College Østfold.

‘Letters: Misconceptions about health and social care in Norway.’

”Is Lesley Riddoch absolutely certain it was Norway she was writing about last month (How tough love on healthcare pays off for Norwegians, The National, January 25)? I have lived in Scotland for 20 years, and Norway for seven. I have researched, worked in and used health and social care services in both countries. Some claims need correcting, and more context is needed to interpret others.

• In Norway you can’t visit A&E without a GP referral? I don’t understand where this is coming from. It does not apply to the ordinary A&E Legevakt, used by most people. In fact, Legevakt is where we go when our GP is closed.

• Norway manages demand for hospital services? Not as well as Scotland, in my experience and according to evidence. Visits to Legevakt circumvent referrals from GPs into hospital services. Most referrals to hospital beds come from Outpatients and Legevakt. GPs can do little to treat patients in the community, as they have no practice team around them for management of routine illness. They refer to Outpatients, who refer in to hospital beds. This is encouraged; hospitals are run as separate enterprises that need patients for income and to balance their budgets.

• Norway manages delayed discharges by charging municipalities for every 24 hours a patient remains in hospital after declared ready for discharge by a doctor? This claim needs serious modification. It is part of the Co-ordination Reform introduced in 2012 to improve co-ordination between the hospital sector and municipalities and reduce pressure on hospitals. The evaluation of the reform in 2015 suggested delayed discharges had gone down, but this was continuation of a trend that had started before the reform. More seriously, patients are moved out earlier (more income and less expense for hospitals, see above) and service bottlenecks were simply moved, with patients stuck in units outside of hospitals. Vulnerable older people’s journeys from hospital to home were more fragmented and risky. Admissions went up after the reform – small wonder perhaps. Municipalities were given more resources to manage increased demand, but this did not compensate for increased activity from more ill and more vulnerable patients.

• Fees for use of services limits demand? Possibly, but evidence suggests this also applies to patients with a low income who are more likely to suffer poor health and with greater need of services. Yes, there are poor people in Norway too, and the numbers are increasing due to government policies: cuts in benefits (including for disabled) to fund tax cuts is one reason.

In Norway, if you have a physical complaint that counts as urgent you will receive excellent care equal to none. If you are old, mentally ill, poor and or suffering from chronic illness that requires the co-ordination of health, social care and welfare services, you are up against a very unwieldy system. The increased use of private providers to get waiting lists down is part of the problem: the system becomes more and more fragmented and it is very easy to fall between the cracks.

I know the health service in Scotland is creaking. Austerity does not go well together with increased demand. But the Scottish system is vastly superior to the Norwegian in many respects. One reason is that health services are part of one publicly owned system where the separate parts are forced to work together to limit demand. And councils are made part of that collaboration. It’s not perfect, but a look south to England suggests it’s not the worst system.

If you live in Scotland you may well have reason to count your blessings. If you write about another country’s health policy you may do well to do some research beforehand.”

Dr Guro Huby
Senior Researcher, University College Østfold

link to thenational.scot

……………………………………….

Petition

link to snp.org

A fair appraisal of the uselessness of TMay!

link to archive.is

I particularly like …

“the only speech May has given recently which had any substance was her party conference speech, and that substance was catarrh”

So, she be giving us “the road to Brexit” speeches shortly.

Here’s my prediction … “we want to cherry pick all the best bits” …. again!

Not much has really changed.

Well, the former India Raj imperial royal’s have got richer and richer, beyond avarice, in a the few decades since they got booted out, of India.

They’re rammed down our throats as divine beings as we know, its a tory royals arse licking world, we just live in it,

link to sputniknews.com

is no different from massed ranks of beeb gimps puckering up, royals groveling wise.

@ Dr Jim,

I have it on very good authority from folk familiar with Balmoral, that the younger Royals cant stand the place and hate coming up here.

The only one who seems to like it, is the hapless Edward, who likes taking part in private Plays at Haddo House.

Remember when the Unionists at Holyrood castigated Nicola for trying to strike trade deals with China?

It’s OK folks Caffney wasn’t out there trying to whip up trade links with Holyrood.

Caffney’s Commons entry stated the purpose of the trip: “To strengthen relations between the UK Parliament and the National People’s Congress of China; to support British businesses operating in China; and to deepen the understanding of parliamentarians of China.”

And don’t worry it’s been suggested that he take equality and diversity training. The classes must be choc-a-bloc with Unionist politicians and councillors. I hope we tax-payers aren’t having to fork out for this.

………………

A couple of articles from the Sunday Herald:

‘Scottish Labour MP Hugh Gaffney went on China trip weeks before racist ‘C****y’ outburst.’

”The Scottish Labour MP reprimanded for using the word “Ch*nky” at a Burns Supper went on an all-expenses paid trip to China weeks before his racist outburst.

Hugh Gaffney, who enjoyed the £1,627 junket as a member of an all-party group on China, was there to “deepen” his understanding of the global superpower……..

According to his House of Commons register of interest, Gaffney went on a five-day trip to Guangdong and Guangxi in November.

His share of the fact-finding mission – £908 in flights, £540 in accommodation, as well as other expenses – was paid for by the All Party Parliamentary China Group.

The APPCG, a cross-party forum, was listed as the donor, but “sponsorship” was provided by organisations including HSBC and City of London.

link to heraldscotland.com

…………………………

Oh come on! For God’s sake. Are there no decent Scots out there qualified to do this 400,000 grand a year job? Talk about Scotland being colonised in more ways than one? Just bring in an expert in that field.

link to en.wikipedia.org

………………………………….

‘New Edinburgh University boss ‘failing to protect academic freedoms and siding with Chinese regime’

EDINBURGH University’s new principal Peter Mathieson has been accused of failing to protect academic freedoms and siding with the Chinese authorities during his time as head of Hong Kong University.

Mathieson became the highest-paid figure in Scottish higher education after agreeing a salary package worth almost £400,000 a year.

However, his three-year term in the same post at the University of Hong Kong was dogged by controversy.

He faced student protests in 2017 after he signed a statement that appeared to condemn support for Hong Kong independence as an abuse of freedom of speech.

Green MSP Ross Greer said the remarks showed Mathieson was not a suitable figure to lead Edinburgh University……

Greer, the Scottish Greens education spokesman, said Mathieson’s record could tarnish the reputation of Edinburgh University.

He said: “It does beggar belief that one of Scotland’s ancient universities can be led by someone with a questionable record on freedom of speech and who appears to have sided with the Chinese regime rather than his own students.

“Mathieson’s actions in Hong Kong should have raised red flags immediately and disqualified him from the post he now occupies and Edinburgh University must urgently clarify whether they were aware of his record and, if so, why on earth they felt his appointment was justified.

“Given the long-held worldwide concern about these institutes and the Chinese Government, questions must be asked as to whether this appointment has compromised Edinburgh University’s global reputation for academic freedom.”

Mathieson also faced criticism about academic and student freedoms during his time as Vice-Chancellor and President of Hong Kong University.

In a survey of academic staff and senior administrators at the University, 78 per cent of respondents said they strongly disagreed that Mathieson had “effectively protected academic freedom”.

Nearly 80 per cent said they strongly disagreed that he “understands the needs of the students and the staff”….

link to heraldscotland.com

”Keep us divided and weak.” Where have I heard that one before?

Scotland being dragged out of the EU and forced into a ‘special relationship’ with Trump. Waken up Scots before it’s too late!

‘Hamid Karzai hits out at US and Pakistan for ongoing war.’

AFGHANISTAN’S former president has criticised both the US and Pakistan, accusing them of using the Afghan war to further their own interests.

Hamid Karzai called on Washington to sanction Pakistani military and intelligence officials.

He said his country is in “terrible shape” 16 years after the US-led invasion that toppled the Taliban. Karzai became president shortly after the fall of the Taliban and held office until 2014.

In recent weeks, Kabul has been battered by a wave of attacks claimed alternately by the Taliban and a rival Daesh affiliate, which killed scores of people and brutally exposed the US-backed government’s failure to secure the capital.

Karzai said: “The US cannot tell us: ‘Well, if I am not here, you will be worse off.’ We are in a terrible shape right now … We want to be better. We want to have peace. We want to have security.”

The former president said Washington wants to establish permanent bases in Afghanistan to project power in the region, while Pakistan wants to turn Afghanistan into a client state.

He said US forces are not in Afghanistan “to stop extremism”.

“In my view their intention is to keep us divided and weak so they can carry on their objectives in this region,” Karzai added.

“They have their global politics and rivalries. They have China as a great rising power. They have Russia as a revitalised, re-energised great power on the world scene, and they feel threatened and challenged.”

Echoing complaints from the current government, Karzai accused neighbouring Pakistan of harbouring Taliban militants. He called on the US to sanction Pakistani military and intelligence officials.

“We hope the US will now act in Pakistan,” he said. “‘Act in Pakistan’ doesn’t mean that the Pakistan people should be hurt or that war should be launched in Pakistan.”

US president Donald Trump has ramped up pressure on Pakistan since the start of the year, suspending up to $2 billion (£1.4bn) in military aid after accusing it of failing to crack down on militants who launch cross-border attacks on US and Afghan forces.

link to thenational.scot

Westminster Council encourages wealthiest residents to voluntarily pay extra tax for social projects

I wonder why Murdo Fraser is not commenting on this maybe because it is highest Taxed part of the UK.

@Kangaroo

I left a rather long reply to your question on the end of the last thread. It doesn’t explain everything but gives enough pointers for further reading and further questions. It does after all cover a long period of history. I hope you are still reading Wings or I’ve wasted a lot of time.
;-))

Long letter in the National from Lorna Campbell.

”Pete Wishart MP says that we need a new vision (The National, February 9). No, what we need is a backbone to stand up to Westminster and Whitehall; we have the vision and the mandate already. I would urge both the SNP leadership and members, and the Yes movement, to stop and think about what we are up against and how we might overcome the odds. The words of the First Marquis of Montrose, James Graham, sums up our situation very succinctly:

“…He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
That puts it not unto the touch
To win or lose it all…”

This, Mr Wishart, is what we should do about a second indyref and about our inexorable march to Brexit on England’s say-so:

a) seize the day and hold another independence referendum before March, 2019 with or without the Westminster government’s consent.

and b) hold a new Scottish EU referendum after independence, with all the options on offer – full membership, EEA, EFTA, no membership at all – after consultation with the EU.

We have nothing to lose but our self-respect if we do not seize the day. We neither asked for Brexit nor voted for it; we were told that if we voted No, it was a guarantee we would remain in the EU, and it was the incentive to our EU residents to vote No in order to remain here, so we have a direct link between that No vote and Brexit, both used as a cosh to beat us into submission, and we have every right under international law and natural justice to seek our independence in these circumstances.

If Mrs May refuses consent to indyref2, then there is nowhere to go but out of the UK at that point. My only caveat would be to put it to Westminster and Whitehall that, if wholesale root-and-branch reform of the UK is undertaken – in which all four parts have full fiscal autonomy, have an equal voice in all decisions made, both domestic and foreign, in defence and in the oil and gas, etc – and a compromise reached with the EU on Brexit, or some form of mitigation, then we might be able to rethink our leaving.

If the reaction is negative (with one week given to answer yes or no) as I would expect it to be – but you never know – then we inform Westminster and Whitehall that we will be taking steps to hold another indyref and, if successful, to move immediately to removing our MPs from Westminster and starting the dissolution process of the Treaty of Union, 1707. To that end, we should inform the UN and the EU of our intentions and invite impartial overseers to ensure the process is carried out properly, with the Scottish Electoral Commission’s rules as the guide.

If we do not move on a second indyref before the UK leaves the EU and we are dragged out and into a dystopian, Tory-led/Labour-led/coalition government at Westminster, post-Brexit the SNP will lose support entirely – not because either it or supporters no longer want independence, at least as a last resort, but because all hope will be gone. The General Election should have been a wake-up call: we allowed the British/English nationalist alliance – with a mantra, “stopindyref2/noindyref2”, as the only policy on offer – to call the tune.

Yes, it is a frightening prospect that those in Scotland who regard our country as a colony and/or as part of a Greater England may vote No in huge numbers again, but it is a risk we must take. If we do not do so, Mr Wishart, we are finished anyway. The leadership, including the new depute leader, must take the initiative now and lead us out of the UK, if that is what it takes, or go down fighting if we lose again, because the SNP cannot hold Scotland indefinitely – no party could – and that might well prove true in 2021.”

link to thenational.scot

My last post of the day, lol!

Two ‘tattie’ posts from the National’s letter page. Worth a read and maybe worth contacting Bartletts with a civilised request, that is to use some of the 4 million of Scottish taxpayers money that they’ve received to put a Saltire on their tattie bags.

…………………………..

”Like many folk I’m annoyed that Scottish products are being retailed with packaging displaying the Union Jack and not our Scottish Saltire. In yesterday’s edition of The National yet another case of this happening has been highlighted by Edith Davidson from Innerleithen (Innerleithen (Letters, February 9).

She writes that Sainsbury’s are selling Airdrie firm Albert Bartlett potatoes in packages with a Union Jack. Ms Davidson asks as many people as possible to bombard Sainsburys with complaints.

I wonder if perhaps it is Albert Bartlett that should be bombarded with complaints. After all, they appear to be happy to allow their potatoes to be sold under the guise of being British. One has to ask oneself why is a Scottish firm happy to do this? Surely they could demand that their produce/products must be retailed in packaging which clearly lets people know the country of origin? Do Albert Bartlett, and other Scottish companies selling under the Union jack, have no pride in their Scottish products?

Anne Smart, Glasgow

………………………………….

I LIKE my tatties. We grow our own but at about this time of year it’s back to supermarket tatties. I have had great difficulty buying any this year because the vast majority of packs are festooned with Union jackery.

So, my question is this: as Bartlett’s have been given £4 million of Scottish funding to expand their brand (Scottish potato firm Albert Bartlett wins £4m investment, The National, February 7), will they now have the Saltire on every pack of their tatties? I would hope they appreciate that being in receipt of Scottish cash bears a certain amount of expectation of loyalty.

Morag D Black, Brora

link to thenational.scot

Catastrophe … Westminster parties have learned to spell a new big word and love to show off at every opportunity, as in much ado about nothing.
Yesterday I had a real catastrophe, the bottom of my rubbish bag burst on the way to the bin.

The UK is a parasite nation. It can only survive by bleeding others dry. It cannot create it’s own sustainability.
This is why we must get out.

England’s spent the last 40+ years, building a highly developed modern economic powerhouse, a major world economic power. Much of it’s been underwritten by their North Sea oil and gas reserves and EU membership. They still have it all going on, massive rolling infrastructure spends, giant uni’s, massive investment from across the planet, all foreigners profiting from stable govs that borrows its way out of most problems.

England’s propaganda unit in Pacific Quay keep any critics and dissenters in their place.

Look at how easy we were lied to about the EU for decades by same beeb gimp network, right up to that UK gov Brexit growth drop report. England can and will absorb a Brexit growth contraction because its so big. Their Scotland region can like it or lump it.

If youre wondering why a few trawlermen in Buckie think Nigel Farage gives a flying fudge about them, its all down to UKOK beeb gimp propaganda. It works.