Faster than we can type
So, last night we mooted the idea of running a book on which “Better Together” scare story would crumble to dust next. We didn’t even have time to come up with odds for “the Clyde shipyards will close because the UK doesn’t build warships abroad”, and now it’s too late. We really need to move quicker.
From today’s Scottish Sun. Of course, it’s exactly what we’ve been saying all along. But it does at least save us waiting any longer for an answer to the question we asked this chump, which we never did get a reply to:
A “fact”. The “law of the land”. Or, more accurately, a “flat-out fearmongering lie aimed at frightening and bullying the people of Scotland into making sure another Scottish Labour trougher keeps their job”.
We’ll add it to the list.
“We’ll add it to the list.”
Do we have an actual list of scare stories and the proof that they’re just lies? Cos if not, we should! “What’s that you say, you think you’ll be banned from getting a British passport? Well, let’s just look up the Lies List… Here you go, here’s the truth.”
Someone should keep a running tally of these. On a handy, easy-to-refer-to, single-point-of-contact web page.
There is no law of the land in Scotland. It’s the law of the people.
It’s not called Scots Law for nothing you know.
+1 for Doug’s suggestion!
That really would be a great index for getting to refuting articles. 🙂
Oh my! How will the Minister of Portsmouth spin this? At this rate we won’t need to vote for Indy, it’s being handed to us on a big gold plate!
I take it he will be informing the police about this breaking of the law.
Also I take it Lamont reported Alex Salmond’s misuse of public funds to the police as well. I have written to her asking if she has a crime no and when we can expect to see Mr Salmond being taken into custody.
Secretary of State for Portsmouth must be beside himself
…and looking at himself and going “I am sure I know that chap”.
Not going to please the ever so restrained and fragrant Better Together types either.
One by one, the big BT scare stories crumble to dust. With the real referendum battles only just beginning, they really are up shit creek.
Ah well, if you build your house on sand……….
Hmm, a good month so far. First the pound sharing debate goes a little quiet following the debt ‘guarantee’, the ‘getting chucked out of the EU assertion’ gets sillier by the day, and now, surprise, surprise, the Clyde shipyards will continue after all.
Interesting how these daft assertions crumble after time. Thank the lord there’s been a properly long referendum campaign and not the “let’s do it tomorrow” one favoured by the unionists. Just as well, eh?
So, yet another project fear unionist scare story bites the dust.
The pace is now really remarkable. No wonder the unionist labour apparatchiks are sounding more and more hysterical.
Meanwhile, I think I understand what Jim Murphy of the Labour party has in mind when he talks of his totalitarian plan of ensuring ‘cybernats’ and those who do not support the union cannot attend public or TV debates on independence:
http://archive.is/P99YK
The Labour party, as the whole world knows, ‘has form’ in this respect.
The Oil being volatile and running out will be the next story to crash and burn.
This is one that has been creaking at the seams for a while.
Another political giant racing to make a fool of himself. The founders of the Labour Party must be so proud to see how today’s Labour titans are doing whatever they can to undermine the self-confidence of ordinary people. It used to be the Blue Tories who specialised in that.
It has been an interesting month. On the actuality of the claims made in the White Paper, increasingly they are being proved reasonable and fair and this makes for excellent debating fodder.
I’m not going to go into a spiral of gloom because QT wasn’t great. Nicola wiped the floor with Moore and Carmichael and the assessment of a draw with Sarwar was generous at best. (He came across as ungallant and full of bluster).
The Greenock debate was not too bad because the audience was feisty…probably what triggered Murphy’s panic attack…must stop pro-independence people attending. The BBC will no doubt say Yes Sir to Murphy and we will just have to box clever on that front plus still hold their feet to the fire over balance.
Cowdenbeath was always going to be a Labour hold even at the high watermark of 2011 it was a labour hold. The turnout could and should have been better. I do worry that we might only get 65% on the day.
That the Liberals and UKIP took a doing was a bonus. I think UKIP are pretty much done in Scotland. The Tories are on the rise and that is not going to be a huge issue in Scotland but it is for Milliband and the polls by the time we get to September. This is unlikely to work against a Yes vote. God forbid we vote No and the Tories win in 2015. Regardless of Smart’s “better a 100 years reich of Tory rule” nonsense, we will repent at leisure if that happens and so will he.
The issue is not whether BT’s scare stories bite the dust – they, all of them, most assuredly will. The issue is whether the foreign-owned media allow the falsehoods to be repeated ad infinitum until September 18 without challenge from the fearless investigative journalists which populate the foreign-owned ‘Scottish’ media.
Because the media will not cite an authoritative challenge to the BT narrative (like this one above), the lie will continue..
I’ve heard from Scottish fisherman moving ships to Hull as they’ve been led to believe an independent Scotland will hand over fishing rights to Spain. I kid you not.
I’m investigating this a bit deeper and see if I can put ship names/fishermen to the fear story.
You cannot make ‘noise’ in the market and expect your creditors to remain relaxed. They have tried to spin two different lines above and below the border, but every ‘Scotland is too poor story’, sends ripples out into the market.
Imagine.
London’s message: “10% of our economy is really a ‘basket case’ – we are subsidising them. Yes, we know what GERS says, but the truth is the region that is supposed to be the most productive after London, is really a burden on the UK. Oil? Not much left.”
Bond Holders and Fitch response: “So 10% of your economy is looking a bit shaky, whether the Scots stay or go? What about their share of this enormous debt you have?”
Can John Robertson MP provide the appropriate literature where this law resides? Or is it one of those ifs buts mebbies kinda-thing hearsay laws? You know, the ones that actually don’t exist. I see those new Tide-Class RFA tankers (£452m) are coming along nicely in South Korea.
The problem, of course, is getting this sort of thing to be highlighted as widely by the mainstream media as the original scare stories were.
And if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to take my Gloucestershire Old Spot for a wee flight over St. Andrews.
Has anybody challenged Robertson to quote the law he refers to. Law is codified so it should be easy for him to identify.
Does he have any explanation as to why the UK bought US armoured vehicles and US helicopters and US missiles and European built fighter planes (yes we build bits but much of the kit going into the Type 26 would still be built in the rUK too). As Stu said, his tweet is a flat out lie. Just because the UK has not bought a full blown warship from abroad since the 1940s (it is buying RFAs from Korea which are still grey fleet) does not make it a law, it s simply a recent trend. A lie indeed. As BAE said, the rUK will simply have to deal with it…not with much dignity by the looks of it though.
Westminster have realised they need to pul their scare horns in or they are going to get them bitten off by the market. I really believe that their Plan B (fall back plan) is a Commonwealth scenario… That way, they keep some control.
Their biggest fear at Westminster is the loss of 10% of their GDP, and a very productive part of the country. 5 million people in 30% of the landmass walking away with 10% of production will affect UK in so many ways. (That’s not even considering all the other strategic advantages that Scotland has – for example North Atlantic access)
I have always thought that the facts only support two unionist arguments. The first is if you feel, in your heart, British rather than Scottish. Fair enough. The only other one is around defence and security – if you think England will invade post indy. Which is obviously such a slim likelihood as to be easily dismissed as ludicrous.
I suppose a third is if you are a neo con, and are concerned Scotland might be more left wing than the uk!
@horace
Never teach your Gloucestershire Old Spot to sing, you’ll never succeed and you’ll only irritate your Gloucestershire Old Spot
We all know that the media are either distorting the truth or telling blatant lies .
Am I correct in the assumption that when the official campaign starts the media are going to have to tell the truth or at least put on a show of being impartial .
If the media are going to have to be impartial , I am looking forward to how they are going to explain to the Scottish electorate why the have been spinning so much bull**** for the last 2 years .
In case you don’t know folks,at the present moment the MoD are building four grey ships in South Korea.You may say “WHAT”
Craig P
I can understand Tories voting No. Their only chance of a Tory Government is if the English vote for one (because the Irish, Welsh and Scots are not going to).
Feeling more British than Scottish fair enough. I am sure some do but I think most Scots in their heart of hearts are Scottish first and foremost.
Defence, I think the proposals in the White paper suggest a robust scottish Defence Force. The only argument the nay sayers can come up with is “we are too wee, too poor and too stupid to have such a good set up”. I saw one chap say where would an independent Scotland find people to fly their Air Force jets. I mean for FFS!
Somewhere right now, Mr Carmichael is doing his finest “Yeah But, No But, yeah But” Vikki Pollard impersonation yet again as he reads this and tries to get his head around it.
Talking of the media though, the Sun is the biggest circulation daily in Scotland so the BT types can’t be pleased about this story hitting the news stands.
Cybernat anon sailor, the Scots fishermen are moving vessel regestratins to England to get round rules preventing Scots vessels from fishing in Cod recovery boxes while other nations CAN fish unhindered, Marine Scotland have enforced This as a form of conservation also banning multi rig ie 3 or more nets while England and all other memberstates can and do fish them in Scottish territorial waters,its purely a rule bending exercise in utilising new fishing methods and not an anti Spain move as you have been led to believe, this is written by a Scottish fisherman of 25 years
HandandSHrimp
The one about needing to find people to fly Scottish Air Force Jets is like the time Phillip Hammond sneered “Would people even want to join a ‘Scottish’ army”.
I don’t know what the biggest laugh is Labour claiming a massive victory and that somehow the result is a reflection on the independence result or the Tory claims that they are on the way back. The reality is that the turnout was so low that all the parties including the SNP should be embarrassed that the electorate feels so disengaged.As we know Labour achieved the vote of just over 18% of the electorate of that constituency hardly grounds for all their crowing. Do the people feel so cut off and that there is no point in voting as they don’t feel that it changes anything. I hope this apathy doesn’t transpire into the referendum vote but if it does then not only the politicians but also the media have to take their share of the blame.The Scaremongering is not only being made up by the unionists but the papers and BBC as well.
Hammond is a supercilious buffoon though
I mean that in a caring way
Wullie thanks for clearing that up, I also rechecked white paper and its clear ScotGov intend to retain and protect Scottish fishing licences/quotas.
I only work on fisheries research as an engineer and as such you’ll know I’m only good at making coffee at smoko and pouring oil into leaking engines! 🙂
Re the Sun clip – why not splashed screamingly over the front page?
GOTCHA!
UK warship building aside, virtually all of the biggest north sea oil platforms are approaching or have passed their use by date. Some are over 40 years old and most are now carrying far more weight than they were designed for.
But what are the chances of any of the multi billion pound replacements being built in a vote no Scotland after next year?
Ho ho a marine Scotland employee by proxy lol, is it the Scotia or Ceol na mara you work at,unfortunately being a member of the EU, Scotland will be restricted at what they can do to protect the fishing industry,time we went the EFTA or EEA route
Would somebody put Scruffy Murphy out of his misery and offer the wee pleb a,”SQUARE GO” in a nominated car park. I am really getting fed up with the Labour trough dipper
The Secretary of Scotland was sitting beside the UK Defence Minister who stated that Independence would make no difference to the vessels being built on the Clyde. The appointed Secretary of State for Scotland decided to ignore it. Carmichael as Chief whip also ignored complaints made of sexual harassment.
Philip Hammond sneering, about the removal of Trident and every Scottish Defence policy. Typical Tory.
Someone should keep a running tally of these
They’ll all largely be collated in the joint UK-Scottish government statement we’re still waiting on.
This was delayed because the pre-referendum negotiations required for it which are of course not happening have been delayed somewhat.
The list of scare stories is being scored off one by one as we approach the joint statement.
Following on twitter from John Robertson this morning- a softening of his attitude I wonder?
Chris
Looks like he has realised what his Tweet looked like to the workers on the Clyde….plus he probably can’t find that damned law 😉
I have never used Twitter because I think it is like a loaded gun..should be handled with extreme care. So many crash and burn on there and with the screen grab what he said is there for all to see for a very long time indeed.
I do wonder what the Media will choose to discuss instead of all these capitulations and reversals. Listening to BBCScot Radio debate at present and all of the Unionist side haven’t got the memo to inform them of all these policy changes. David Mundane Mundell is still prattling on about borders, bank bailouts, EU Membership and currency.
Who is in charge of administrating the communication of all policy alterations to all the different Party minions?
What will the BBC fill their air waves with if they refuse to report on these reversals, their famous birdsong soundtrack.
At the end of the debate he asked for a show of hands, all those voting Yes, then all those voting No. Followed by a very quick, “oh goodness me”.
He did not state the outcome although some laughing and chatter could be heard, then cut quickly straight to the news. Wonder what the show of hands showed.
Anybody present care to share?
Just caught the end of Brian Taylor’s All-Star Roadshow.
The final words:
“Who’s voting Yes? Show of hands? No? Oh my goodness. Toodleoothenoo!”
Now that’s journalism for ye!
Ian Brotherhood,
Snap.
Aye caught that too, “oh my goodness…” Bit of a surprise there Brian. Patrick Harvie is a really good speaker, passionate, articulate, and always has clarity and indeed seems to be well received. A good asset to Indy
@scottish_skier
Next week see Carney up here for talks about currency union, I’d hazard a joint statement release end of february?
We are allowed to think rude thoughts about fear mongering troughers aren’t we? 😉
@Ian Brotherhood
I’m hoping someone has an audio clip of that!
What could it possibly have been that so put the wind up Oor Brian that he forgot to make his parting shot some reference to Dundee United? Will we ever find out what that show of hands looked like?
Come on, fellow Cybernats – we have tentacles everywhere…don’t we?
@Ian Brotherhood
Where can we hear that?
It’ll turn up on the BBC I-player, but I don’t know how long it takes for them to make these things available. Might be there now.
@ Scottish skier
“The list of scare stories is being scored off one by one as we approach the joint statement.
That’s certainly a good thought. They have to defuse gradually, or risk an explosion on publication.
There is a lot of careful thought going in to all communications hitting Scotland from Westminster.
Can someone who was at Brians big debate let us know the result of the show of hands at the end re yes/no
Brian having asked the question did not feel the need to tell the listeners the result
I reckon Scottish_Skier might have hit the nail square on the head there.
Well, Parick Harvie and Paul Wheelhouse were there. Dont think Fluffy Mundell or Drew Smith would answer. Do you have twitter for either of those Rev?
This is all consistent with the original BAE Systems press release. The decision to concentrate on the Clyde is cost-driven.
There is nowhere in the Isles we refer to as British that can manufacture large, complex warships at the required cost.
At the end of Brian’s debate I just got the impression that the No vote show of hands was either very sparse or non existent, the exclamation coming straight after asking for a show of no voters. Either that or there was a huge majority for no, but he would have stated that if it were the case.
O/T
can someone explain what the new oil stuff that has been announced by the govt. Exploration areas. Are these sold? if so, is the UK govt hamstringing iScotland? I wonder also about the strategy Gideon adopted with RBS where he maintained the debts in RBS rather than set up a bad bank. is he keeping debts off balance sheet? I read somewhere that OECD has stated 8.2% UK debts have been moved off balance sheet. anyone can explain it to a simpleton
I am english. To get a balanced idea of the opinions on both sides of the Scottish independence debate I decided to have a look at the wings over Scotland site and came accross this article.
I find myself amazed at the interpretation you guys are putting on this article. Because the head of BAE had no proposals to switch production doesn’t mean he won’t develop them in the future. The same applies to abscence of contingency plans to alter working patterns.
The statement that the MOD will have to deal with a yes vote doesn’t change the fact they are the customer and can impose whatever conditions they like on BAE the supplier.
Seems to me that if the MOD do get over any resistance to getting warships built abroad they could easily decide to build almost anywhere and scottish yards would likely lose out.
Here it is:
‘Oh my goodness…goodness me…toodleoothenoo.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03q5jnf
Patrick Harvie… mavellous at debunking unionist tripe and getting his point across in short sharp statements. Aye Brian what does ‘oh my goodness’ mean!
A clear win for YES today in that exchange.
O/T does anybody know how many folk were at the LFI event last night?
Thanks Ian!
Aye, that ‘oh my goodness’ was very telling…
Jungly jangly
I read there were 250 at the event and 241 on the live feed I’ll look for the link….
This news is far more important than winning the Cowdenbeath by election – a forlorn hope from day 1.
Showing the unionists up as incompetent or liars – it has to be one or the other – on such an important subject as this is worth its weight in gold.
Rev, DougD jist increased yer workload,anither assitant maybes.
Herald with story today saying Scots will retain British citizenship and passports for 2 generations post independence….another one bites the dust.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/scots-to-stay-british-despite-vote.23257477
get it quick as they are burying it as quick as possible
@jimsie,seasickdave, that thread the other day,MOD loseing million,s in equipment,fridge,s/pc,s/viagra.could you,s no purloin a type 26,paint it in Water Colour,s.Hey presto,a Stealth gunboat at nae cost.Sorry Rev avert yer heid,we dont want you involved.
BAE’s response if the rUK try to move the ships down sowf.
“Sorry Guv’, that’s gonna cost you.”
I’m sure I heard on GMS this morning that over a thousand attended the LFI event.Maybe I picked it up wrong.Anyway,it is the active and aware Labour Party supporters who are most likely to support LFI.The ones they were counting on to do the footwork for the Tory funded NO campaign.
I like the idea of a list of crumbled scare stories, but I’d love to see it in a form of “then” and “now”, much like one of your previous articles. So for example:
xxx 2013 “No EU, never, Spanish veto, new state, Telegraph”
Jan 2014 “Scotland could negotiate from within the EU”
Ericmac s
What you have to think of is whether or not the UK wants Stering to fall, just think about it. Every thing would go sky high in price as it will cost more for imports. They get the higher tax all the same. Employment costs will drop as there would be no chance of wage increases.
There would be many redundancies and less benefits, making people work at anything, just to try and make ends meet.
A low cost manufacturing base which would make our exports much cheaper so more will be sold, and with cheap workers our costs will be very low, as will the standard of living.
Not likely you may think, but,the ruling elite will have their money squirrelled out of the country BEFORE a crash, into to currencies like the soon to be convertible Chinese Yuan, Singapore Dollar, Swiss Franks, gold, etc.
Then there are the Bank Traders who will make a fortune for Banks by shorting Sterling. The Bankers and the Elites can make big profits with such a thing happening. So just think of the possible outcomes between the rich and the poor.
I think if they see a crash coming,as always, be before we do, they will do very well out of it, so don’t discount this happening. They have vested interests. They will turn us into one of the lowest cost countries in the world, deliberately. With no risk to their fortunes.
Ian Brotherhood @1.05
The EBC’s political giant’s response
No access to sound , any response from anyone who was there about numbers of hands up for each motion??
Wullie B says:
If we joined EFTA we would have few EU regs to contend to but also, our seas will be ours as far as they stretch, not as now where we have 12 mile limits.
I also prefer the idea of Sc$, the Scottish Dollar, pegged to Sterling. In that particular issue I agree with Jim Sillers.
http://youtu.be/tEGf90tH9Zg
I agree Les Wilson but would rather have a £Stirling instead lol , oh how that would stick in their craw
I’ve just been telephone polled on behalf of George Lyon MEP.Last question,do I agree or disagree that if Scotland independent they should apply to join the EU and adopt the euro. When asked if I would vote for Libdems I said absolutely not. Just checked out George Lyon MEP he is Libdem. They must have got a real fright with the Cowdenbeath result.
I was at Brian Taylor’s big debate in dumfries today and have to say that the “show of hands” was done so quickly due to the news, I didn’t get a chance to raise my hand in time. I’d say more yes than no’s but even after inviting only the audience they wanted it’s not surprising as we are much more active.
You have to love the old lady at the front heckling D Mundel though. And how many times do we have to say “the pound”?
“I like the idea of a list of crumbled scare stories, but I’d love to see it in a form of “then” and “now”, much like one of your previous articles. So for example:
xxx 2013 “No EU, never, Spanish veto, new state, Telegraph”
Jan 2014 “Scotland could negotiate from within the EU””
Excellent volunteering! I look forward to seeing it! 😉
I volunteered the idea!
@ Jingly jangly & Garry Henderson
You can get the IndependenceLive stuff here:
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive
Not sure how many were attending the LfI, but there were about 175 online.
Wullie, sorry was busy putting port engine back together! Corystes in Belfast, Serco. Its in my contract to say nice things about Servo so I’ll say nothing online.
I guess Scottish fisheries face an uncertain future whichever way we vote. Although maybe we can close that loophole on cod protection box.
Wullie B says:
Ideed it would Wullie, I will think about think about that one LOL! I just thought, New Nation, new things.
“Because the head of BAE had no proposals to switch production doesn’t mean he won’t develop them in the future.”
Sure. But why would he? The Clyde is where his warship expertise is.
“The statement that the MOD will have to deal with a yes vote doesn’t change the fact they are the customer and can impose whatever conditions they like on BAE the supplier.”
Yep, if it wants to bin the company that’s built all its warships for years and hand over all its secrets to a whole new company that may or may not have the ability and capacity to build what it wants.
You’re missing the point of the article. There is of course no guarantee that BAE will get the contracts, although it’s massively, massively likely. But we were told by MPs and journalists that it was THE LAW that warships had to be built in UK/rUK yards, and they definitely wouldn’t be built on the Clyde if Scotland voted for independence. The head of BAE has just told us that that’s total bullshit, because if it was true he WOULD have contingency plans or he’d be the most irresponsible exec ever.
Nowt much to add but HA HA Chairchoob and HEE HEE Secretary of State for Portsmouth.
amazing..this story comes out on a Friday…no newsnight Scotland…no Scotland tonight….by Monday it’s old news so nobody finds out..
Is it just me, or are there others out there who think the BAE Systems chief is actually making a sound and pragmatic business decision here? The future orders in an independent Scotland WILL be coming from a cash-rich Scottish defence ministry, AND there will be a market for specialist ships to cater for the oil and gas sector as well as the marine renewables sector. After EWNI has paid for Trident, HS2 and another London airport, there won’t be any money for silly little warships, no matter where they are built.
Nice to see a visiting English poster from England on this thread (John Morris at 1.54 pm) and I hope he will begin to understand that the whole dynamic of current dependence on favours from the MOD for survival will be totally irrelevant on gaining independence.
I second the scare story debunking not filtering down to the No campaign minions. I was at an event at a school yesterday with Mundell & Hume for the No side and the ship building threat was raised, as was the threat of no £.
But then why would they drop these stories when the are so effective? For the low information voter, it is further repetition. If you were in the audience and not an expert on the issues you have one side saying one thing and the other saying the opposite. If you are 16 years old – who do you believe?
Very Frustrating.
Hi John Morris, Welcome to Wings John, it’s always nice to have English visitors.
You are correct when you say that BAE can change their mind in the future and it may seem strange that the regulars on wings would be making such a fuss…however…
The reason we are making a fuss over BEA releasing a statement saying that they have no plans to shut the base after the referendum, is because the No side and not a few media outlets, have claimed that the Scottish shipyards WILL close if we vote Yes.
This is just one of several Better Together lies, that have been crumbling the past week or so, so we are enjoying the furious backtracking, spin and downright lies from BT/No as they attempt damage limitation.
To Douglas Daniel: This May have been responded to already. If so apologies. I think you’ll find that Newsnet Scotland have a list ….. Have a look at http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation
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