Fancy a chat, Darling?
The Scotsman’s last attempt at a live webchat didn’t go too well. In fact it didn’t happen at all, and the page has now vanished entirely. So we were pleased to see them having another go today, in the shape of a well-trailed Q&A session with “Better Together” campaign head Alistair Darling. We tuned in to see how it went.
We submitted a question of our own a few hours in advance of the event, on the subject of this. It wasn’t selected. We also made a few comments during the “chat”, but none were printed. Indeed, nothing at all was published which wasn’t a prepared question – there were no apparent responses to anything Darling said, and no discussion at all, just question followed by answer followed by new question.
You can see a full transcript below (verbatim – we haven’t corrected any typos), along with our analysis of Darling’s responses in red. Did he engage in full and informative answers, or did he just dodge his way to the end? See if you can guess.
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Laura Rayner: Do you think that the cost of independence is just £1?
Alistair Darling: No. Last year the SNP said that Scots would be about £500 a year better off under independence. This figure is said to come from looking at Scottish public expenditure, taking the years when oil prices where especially high. The SNP argument was that Scotland was somehow being short-changed. The Treasury figure put out yesterday cast doubt on those assumptions pointing out that over the last few years that Scotland has always had its fair share of public expenditure.
This is an argument about the difference between what Scotland gets in and what it pays out. It has nothing to do with independence. Our argument is not that Scotland couldn’t go it alone, most countries can. But as the Independent Institute of Fiscal Studies has shown, public spending in Scotland is about £1200 a head higher in Scotland and we are very dependent on revenues from North Sea oil which are very volatile.
The argument about independence turns on whether you think Scotland would be economically better and stronger as part of the UK and whether you consider the risks and uncertainties that come with independence are worth it.
Verdict: DODGE. Does Darling agree with Danny Alexander’s statistics or not? He won’t say. Indeed, he appears not to know. His first reply, incidentally, came 12 minutes after the advertised start time, with no explanation offered.
David Kelly: A question for Alistair: why does he think that Tory rule from London is preferable to Home Rule from Holyrood? If Scotland were independent, she could well be governed by a progressive Labour government. Wouldn’t that be a good thing?
Alistair Darling: Tory rule is never preferable either in Westminster or Holyrood for that matter. We’re not talking about electing a government for the next 5 years. We are deciding whether or not Scotland is stronger and better as part of the United Kingdom.
Verdict: ANSWER, albeit only by a process of elimination. If Tory rule is “never preferable”, then it must follow, in the context of the question, that an independent Scotland IS preferable. So why risk English voters regularly imposing Tory governments when Scotland hasn’t voted for one in almost 60 years?
Vincent McWhirter: If Scotland is best staying within the Union, why have we consistently for 70 years since the end of WWII had higher unemployment than the rest of the UK, a struggling economy more than the UK, a low economic growth rate than the UK, poorer health, poorer housing, higher emigration with our young having to leave the country taking their skills to Canada, Australia etc. these symptoms are of a failing country, not of a successful country.
All this has happened during a 30 plus year period of Trillions of pounds being received from oil revenue from Scottish oil. Why if being in the UK is good for us has Scotland not grown and developed similar to other small European countries who now have a better standard of living and stronger economies.
Alistair Darling: Firstly on comparisons with other countries, there are many small countries that are struggling. Ireland and Iceland for example (remember the Arc of Prosperity). Secondly Scotland like many other countries has had to deal with huge changes to its economy, some of it has done well in Edinburgh and Aberdeen for example. Others have found it difficult.
As for health it it totally devolved, and there is no reason why the current Scottish Government couldn’t take whatever action it thinks necessary to improve it. Much of this depends on the type of government which is elected. Not on the constitution. If the current SNP policy of a currency union with England is put in place, you are actually shackling Scotland to another country’s economic policy. Look at what us happening in the Eurozone. Freedom to do whatever you want would be severely curtailed by the demands of the other countries in the Union.
Verdict: DODGE. Darling seems to have awkwardly crowbarred in the answer to a completely different question here. And while health may be devolved, its budget remains dependent on the size of the block grant, which is affected by Westminster policy, so his (non-) answer is disingenuous at best. And are we sure that Iceland is “struggling”? It has far higher growth and lower unemployment than the UK.
Simon: The separatists play heavily on Scottish patriotism, do you think it is important that the Pro UK campaign shows British patriotism too and encourages people to take pride in being British? What will Better Together do to promote that?
Alistair Darling: Most Scots are proud to be both Scottish and British. We are fiercely patriotic and don’t have to or want to chose between the two.
Verdict: DODGE. Complete non-answer. Should British patriotism be encouraged? Don’t know. What will the No campaign do? Don’t know.
Kenny Paterson: Is it realistic to suggest that increased Border controls between Scotland and England would be put in place should Scotland become an independent country?
Alistair Darling: Much of this depends on what the terms and conditions of Scotland being admitted to the European Union. Most countries are now in a common passport area in Europe. If we had to join that a therefore had a different immigration and asylum regime from the rest of the UK there would have to be border controls which most of us do not want. I can’t see the benefit of that.
Scotland is part of one of the oldest political and economic unions in the world. I want to break down barriers between countries not put them up.
Verdict: DODGE. In fairness, nobody definitively knows the answer, but Darling carefully only puts the negative possibility, not the far more likely positive one.
Danny: In the event of seperation, do you think the UK will gladly hand over 90% of the Oil like the SNP assert? Wouldent the UK argue that since it invested in Oil and Gas, it should have a larger share?
Bill Laver: The SNP claim 90% of N.Sea oil and gas revenues by virtue of geography but like EU Membership there is no Westminster/Holyrood agreement to back up this claim. As a UK asset that would need to be negotiated over in the event of Independence, then on a population basis Scotland may only be entitled to 10% What is your view on the share of N.Sea oil and gas revenues that an Independent Scotland would legally expect?
Alistair Darling: Both of these questions are difficult to answer in that it would have to be subject to negotiations between Scotland and the rest of the UK. That’s not the only question. Who would meet the massive decommissioning costs in the North Sea, for example. This is an example of one of the many issues that could take some years to negotiate. Never mind the separate negotiations with the European Union.
Verdict: DODGE. Oddly, Darling didn’t just say “International law is extremely clear, and Scotland would be unequivocally entitled to around 90% of the oil.”
James Parker: How much more devolution does Better Together propose for Scotland? It must be more than status quo but will it go as far as Home Rule?
Alistair Darling: Better Together is not a political party and obviously won’t be standing at the general election! Only the political parties contesting that election can put forward proposals.
My personal view is that if there were to be major constitutional change, parties need to put that in their manifestos in the general election due to be held in 2015. At the moment there is no consensus on this but the first question we have to ask is whether we are staying in the UK or leaving it.
Verdict: DODGE. Though in fairness, the question was poorly framed, and Darling was correct to say Better Together isn’t a party contesting elections. He conspicuously shunned the chance to offer either Labour’s view or his own, though.
Gordon Caldwell: The rural economy is important to the scottish economy, especially farming. Would the team from Holyrood not be better at representing Scotland’s farming industry at Brussels than a team from Westminster who diluted Scotland’s view with the views of the rest of the UK?
Alistair Darling: I met some farmers this morning partly to discuss this and you’re right, in the rural economy farming and fishing is very important to Scotland. Two points. First in 13 years experience of attending European councils the larger countries tend to call the shots in Europe. We have more influence as the UK than we would as separate countries. Secondly, the fishery policies could easily become a matter for intense debate under any renegotiations.
Verdict: DODGE. Absolutely no response to the actual question, which was whether UK negotiators acted in Scotland’s specific interest.
Andrew P Gray: How can it be acceptable to hold a referendum on independence in 2014 when some of the key issues will remain to be negotiated with the UK Government after the result of the referendum has been determined?
Alistair Darling: The SNP won a mandate to hold a referendum in this parliament. They’ve had 80 years to come up with answers to some pretty basic questions like which currency we would use and how it would work. They are making the proposition and they want us to vote on it. They shouldn’t be afraid when they are asked to spell out the detail of what it all means.
As it is they say they can’t tell us until November less than a year before the vote. All we can do is to raise the big issues which people need to decide on.
Verdict: DODGE. Darling doesn’t tell us whether he thinks it’s acceptable or not, let alone how. We’re not sure why the white paper being published less than a year before vote is a problem, though – after the 2011 election, the Unionist parties demanded that the referendum be held “at the earliest possible date”. Either you need time to discuss and debate the issue or you don’t.
Rory Scothorne: The Yes campaign has gathered a wide coalition of artists, intellectuals, writers, businessmen, activists and people from many other walks of life into a campaign that is undeniably built around autonomous, grassroots organisations (such as Women For Independence, National Collective and Radical Independence). Do you envisage anything of this sort emerging for Better Together?
Alistair Darling: Yes. There is an equally wide coalition who believe that Scotland is stronger and better as part of the UK. I’m in the course of visiting many parts of Scotland this week and that’s increasingly obvious to me.
Verdict: ANSWER. Ish. Darling doesn’t actually name any of these pro-Union groups, of course, but he does technically answer the question, such as it was.
Daniel V: I recently spoke to someone from Quebec who remembers the independence referendum in 1995. They said they wouldent like to live through that again because the campaign turned very bitter and divisive with widespread intimidation. What can we do to prevent this campaign getting nasty?
Alistair Darling: This is the biggest decision that Scotland will make in generations. It is important that both sides make their points in a reasonable and measured way. No one should be shouted down because of what they believe, let both sides make their case and then let Scotland decide.
Verdict: DODGE. When asked the question “How should something happen?”, Darling replies “The thing should happen”, which isn’t what he was asked. Admittedly, it was a pretty awful question offering few opportunities for a good answer – was it really the best the Scotsman could find?
Neil Henderson: As a Labour Party activist and Better Together activist and contributor I am concerned that our campaign is being muddied by the Labour for Independence and the Conservatives for the Union groups, especially the former. I am willing to work with the Tories in our area on Better Together but refuse to be on a stall which may involve the latter group.
As I understand it’s Labour Party policy to work with the Better Together campaign and, therefore, shouldn’t the Labour for Independence group be disowned and its members removed from the party?
In view of of both these concerns I would be interested to know how Alistair would deal with them so that Labour and the other parties are actually going to be “together” in the fight against nationalism.
Alistair Darling: In 36 years membership of the Labour party I’ve never came across ‘Labour for Independence’ until a few weeks ago. I’m not sure there’s anyone to ‘disown’ as you put it. On the broader point I’m happy to work with any democratic party that believes that Scotland is better in the UK.
Verdict: DODGE. We’re not sure how Darling could be unaware of the existence of L4I. Some of them even recently posted pictures of their party membership cards. And he declines to respond to the question of whether they should be ejected from the party or not. Is it really that hard to say “Yes, they don’t back party policy and should be ejected” or “No, we allow dissent and debate in the Labour Party”?
Susan Bowie: I am quite worried about what will happen to my hard worked for public sector pension should there be independence?
Alistair Darling: Again, who accepts responsibility for paying pensions would have to be negotiated. Who for example would be responsible for paying the pension of a public sector who had worked in Newcastle and then retired to Edinburgh. Pensions is a really big issues on which the SNP have been strangely silent. Given the demographics in Scotland, pension funding generally is a very difficult problem. It’s much easier to face these pressures as part of a country with a population in excess of 60 million people rather than 6 million.
Verdict: LIE. There’s no actual question (despite the question mark), but Scottish public-sector pensions are already largely administered by an independent Scottish body. Details can be found here. We’re also not sure that big countries are inherently any better equipped to handle pensions than smaller ones, and Darling offers no evidence to back up the assertion.
Ruairidh Campbell: If Scotland is better of in the union then why do statistics show that if Scotland was independent it would have the 6th highest GDP per capita whereas Britain as a whole is only 16th?
Alistair Darling: The statistics you refer to are produced by the Scottish Government and are not robust. They are derived using an assumption that nothing will change as a result of independence.
Verdict: DODGE. The question wasn’t based on what might happen in the future, it was based on what the figures say right now. Clearly nobody can say that “nothing will change in the future”, whether we stay in the UK or not.
Frankie Caldwell: My family and I are probably typical of so many families living in Scotland – I was born in Scotland, however, my wife is English and my children were born in England, we are a proud British family! I fear if there where to be a yes vote for independence we would be forced to choose between remaining in Scotland or moving to England and remain British as we would not give up our British Passports.
Alistair Darling: I can’t answer this question because it would have to be negotiated. Given its importance to so many people such as you and your family I would have thought that having so long to think about the SNP would have an answer. Most of us don’t want to make that choice. We like being Scottish and British. Why should we be forced to chose.
Verdict: N/A. Again there’s nothing to dodge here, as there wasn’t actually a question.
Frankie Caldwell: As a former member of the Armed Forces (27yrs service) who has recently left, I think it is a disgrace that there is a chance that those currently serving maybe denied a vote in the referendum. Do you think there should be a special case made to give our Scottish members of the armed forces who are stationed outside Scotland without an address in Scotland a vote in the referendum?
Alistair Darling: It’s not just the armed forces, there are many people who consider themselves residents from Scotland who are working in England for a few years and fully intend to return. Ironically if they worked in Brussels or were ex-pats in Spain they would get a vote because they are overseas voters.
Quite simply our electoral registration rules were never designed for a referendum like this. And whilst on the subject if we had a currency union for the rest of the UK, is the SNP going to ask the people of Wales, England and Northern Ireland what they think?
Verdict: DODGE. Asked a simple yes/no question, we don’t get either from Darling. And why would it be up to “the SNP” – presumably meaning the Scottish Government – to ask the people of Wales, England and Northern Ireland anything about anything? Wouldn’t that be Westminster’s job?
Kyle C: With the British Armed Forces being that of the United Kingdom’s, what will happen to the Scottish regiments of the British Armed Forces? An independent Scotland would not have a large military expenditure or investment as much as the UK puts into Scotland. Will a newly independent Scottish military mean an end to ship building and an over-all downgrade which may result in heavy job losses?
Alistair Darling: On the regiments, this would partly depend on negotiation but critically on how much Scotland was able and willing to spend on the armed forces including naval shipbuilding. I cannot see how a country of our size could replicate what we have now especially as there would be other things to spend money on like health and education and pensions.
I’ve just come back from Rosyth where they are building two RN aircraft carriers which will be maintained there for the next 50 years. Would Scotland be able to or indeed willing to do anything like that on its own? Surely sharing defence commitments makes sense to keep costs down? After all the SNP now wants to join NATO why does it want to break the alliance of its next door neighbour.
Verdict: ANSWER. Not necessarily a straight or even true answer – indeed, probably an untrue one – but an answer all the same. Has any UK naval vessel ever served for 50 years, though? And can you technically say an aircraft carrier is “in service” if it doesn’t have any aircraft to carry?
Cameron Edwards: I’ve voted SNP all my life, and have never for a moment believed that Scotland would simply cease relationships with our neighbours! When will the Better Together Campaign STOP the fearmongering and be clear with people what this is really about? – a political settlement, entirely just, and relevant to the needs of Scotland.
Alistair Darling: No one is suggesting that the relationship would stop dead but it will be different. After all if it isn’t what’s the point of independence? I really don’t think it’s scaremongering to ask where we would stand with the EU for example. After all simply asking the question revealed that contrary to what we’ve been told, there never was a legal opinion putting the matter beyond doubt.
If you put a proposition so fundamental such as independence you shouldn’t be afraid of hard questions. Has the SNP really thought through the consequences of binding itself into a Euro-style currency union with the rest of the UK?
Verdict: N/A. The question was somewhat rhetorical, and Darling rejected its premise. He did, though, the opportunity to sneak in a bit of flat-out lying – to the best of our knowledge nobody in the Yes campaign or SNP has EVER said there was a “legal opinion putting the matter beyond doubt” over EU membership.
The Scotsman would like to thank Alistair Darling for taking part in this afternoon’s webchat.
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And that was it, ending just 49 minutes after the “hour-long question and answer session” began, including some long silent pauses, and with almost no hostile questions selected by the Scotsman’s moderator, a more or less complete waste of time. We learned nothing, because Darling dodged almost every question, even though the majority were patsy efforts from No supporters.
(Though in fairness, a couple of them did look a bit like false-flag traps, which Darling’s dead-bat approach at least kept him from falling into.)
All we got was standard, vague Better Together boilerplate, concentrating on fear, uncertainty and doubt, and which would have read almost identically if delivered as a speech, without the questions being present at all. Even when lobbed soft balls by his own supporters (eg should non-residents have the vote?) he wouldn’t be drawn into an answer, not even fobbing them off with something like “the franchise is the responsibility of the Scottish Government”. It was a masterclass in near-pathological evasion, filling space with sound and words but no information whatsoever.
Expect lots more of the same from the No camp until autumn 2014.
Utterly devoid of substance. I don’t know why he bothered to turn up.
Like Peter Sellers politician’s speech, isn’t it?
——–
My friends, in the light of present-day developments, let me say right away, that I do not regard existing conditions lightly. On the contrary, I have always regarded them as subjects of the gravest responsibility, and shall ever continue to do so.
Indeed I will even go further and state, quite categorically, that I’m more than sensible of the definition of the precise issues which are, at this very moment, concerning us all.
We must build, but we must build surely!
(applause and ‘Hear hear’)
Let me say just this. If any part of what I am saying is challenged, then I am more than ready to meet such a challenge. For I’ve no doubt whatsoever, that whatever I may have said in the past, or what I am saying now is, as to the state of the case, the exact, literal and absolute truth.
(applause and ‘Hear hear’)
I put it to you that this is not the time for vague promises of better things to come.
(muffled ‘yerse’ from a member of the audience)
For if I were to convey to you a spirit of false optimism, then I should be neither fair to you, nor true to myself.
But does this mean, I hear you cry, that we can no longer look forward to the future that is to come? Certainly not!
A Heckler: What about the workers?
What about the workers indeed, sir. Grasp, I beseech you, with both hands…
(smothered female squawk)
(Muttering) I’m so sorry… I beg your pardon… (Aloud) … ah — the opportunities that are offered. Let us assume a bold front, and go forward together. Let us carry the fight…
(another squawk)
… ah — against ignorance to the four corners of the earth, because it is a fight that concerns us all.
And now finally, my friends, in conclusion, let me say just this.
I see that Darling says any further devolution proposals would have to be put in the No parties’ manifestos for the presumed general election in 2015. However, given that the referendum will be held more than 6 months before the election, there is not going to be any chance of Scottish voters seeing the manifestos before the referendum. So basically confirmation of a Jam Tomorrow type pledge, just like 1979. Does anyone know when the manifestos for general elections are released? Can’t be more than 6 months before a GE surely?
The dismissal of the Labour Voters for Independence group echoes Patricia Ferguson’s attitude months ago. I can’t believe that he has only been aware of them for a few weeks, given that Allan Grogan’s speech to the independence rally last September received plenty of media attention.
So there we have it, the No campaign is not going to offer any more powers for our parliament, and Scottish Labour are going to deny that any of their members support independence.
Darling really is better understood as a small town solicitor with aspirations to serve on the local council who slid up the greasy pole by way of the erstwhile Labour in Scotland and his pal Gordon.
He just aint up to it and I wonder, cunning and paranoid devil that I am, if that is not Cameron’s plan all along.
Let the incompetent Labour time servers in Scotland foul up the NO vote and voila a reduction in Labour votes at Westminster courtesy, not of the hated Tories but, of duff Labour. See Labour, they cannot run their own backyard so, can you possibly let run the rUK again?
Maybe Salmond really has built that Golden Bridge for Cameron to retreat over and Cameron is playing the game at arm’s length.
As I mentioned on another post …two questions and I challenged some answers. No joy.
An absolute joke. I’m convinced the No campaign have no idea what they are doing and have no case.
AD takes havering to a new level.
On the 50 year shelf-life aircraft carriers thing, Darling is being disingenuous. Or he’s ill-informed. Or both.
Yes, there will be long-term maintenance work on the carriers (if they aren’t flogged off to the Chinese or Indians), but very little of it can involve Rosyth, That’s not my opinion as that claim is made in this transcript of evidence from the Scottish Affairs Committee: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/uc139-xiv/uc13901.htm
The relevant question is Q2035. In replying VAdm Matthews says of the maintenance work that most will be done in Portsmouth. A small part of the work – that which requires putting the ships into dry dock – could be done at Rosyth. (But it could also be done at two other UK locations, one of which is Birkenhead, not 100% certain about the other, Falmouth at a guess.) Matthews notes that “Just doing the physical work in the dry dock is not a huge cost; the money is in supporting the combat systems and various other things.” So, if it got anything then Rosyth then would get some occasional painting and welding work and not the high-value, ongoing stuff.
I just stopped reading after the 3rd question. Darling is a lawyer, he was never an Economist. The closest Darling deals with figures is when he is touting up someones legal fees.
Darling is just evading the question, or coming out with an alternative answer that does not answer the question …and why …because he does not know, or doesn’t like the truth.
As I said on a previous post, I sit and wait with anticipated glee, when it comes to the ‘Live’ debate. I wonder who the First Ministers opposite number is going to be (seriously …who are they going to put up against Salmond live on TV – Darling?, Cameron? (nae chance), or for a true barrel of laughs ….Lamont!!!).
This lot will brick it when they really do have to answer the question. Salmond will eat them alive should they try to evade the question. He will hound them silly should they dance or skirt around the question, and should Salmond answer it for them, then I just can’t wait to see what their response will be….
‘Eh…naw, Alex, that’s no right?’
‘Well, what is it then, Johann. What is the answer?’
‘………..Err …errrr ….uh…well….you see…it’s tae dae wae tax, und ….und…well…. ye jist cannae dae it…right …ye jist cannae… it widnae be right …ever ….Ed Miliband kens best, aw right? ….wan naishun is thu way tae go….’
I can’t wait for the ‘Live’ debate, and God help these clowns if they are caught lying…
Sometimes I wonder if Scottish_Skier is right about the Tories deliberately sabotaging the No campaign. Cameron certainly put all the pressure on Darling to save the union today. Looks like Cameron is going to have as little to do with the No campaign as possible.
Muttley
However, given that the referendum will be held more than 6 months before the election, there is not going to be any chance of Scottish voters seeing the manifestos before the referendum. So basically confirmation of a Jam Tomorrow type pledge, just like 1979.
Bang on, mate. Seriously …spot on.
And look what happened after the 79 referendum. In came the Tories, and Scotland got seriously f***** by a woman with a huge chip on her shoulder.
Roll onto 2015.
If Scotland votes No….look what is waiting in the wings for us. A possible Tory-UKIP coalition that will drain Scotland of all the oil it can get, tax us to hell and back, and pull us altogether out of Europe, while at the same time, will make deals behind our backs, probably allowing Spanish fishing fleets to still fish in our waters for the right sum of money, while our own fleets will be told ‘get tae ****.’
Beware….Lightning can strike twice…
Muttley
My thoughts exactly.
My point wasn’t addressed either. He either obfuscated or lied in most of his answers. So no change there. But come on. It was the Scotsman; it was Alistair Darling. What did we expect.
Great post Muttley. We must remind people not at any cost to believe a word they say.
They lie.
“Sometimes I wonder if Scottish_Skier is right about the Tories deliberately sabotaging the No campaign. Cameron certainly put all the pressure on Darling to save the union today. Looks like Cameron is going to have as little to do with the No campaign as possible.”
He really did overdo the Norman Wisdom act today. First calling it the Yes campaign and then the “Alistair Darling campaign” looks awfully like it’s calculated, and none too subtly.
O/T slightly, but what is STV playing at? In the middle of some adverts for future programmes a plaintive voice wails “Ah don’t know anybody who’s interested in independence” No context, nothing. I ‘m sure I heard this about a week ago but thought I must have imagined it. Anyone else hear it?
Seanair,
No idea. I don’t watch much telly these days. If i’m not following my hobby (astronomy) then I’m sitting in front of Wings over Scotland. Based on the weather recently 99.9% of my time has been spent in front of this web site 🙂
Typical vague answers from a grey suit career politico that rose without trace.
As for navy ships, I think Darling has forgotten that a shipyard is about to close. Jane’s Defence Weekly reckons its Portsmouth to go as it is smaller and can’t build capital ships. All this under the so-called protective UK Union. Also Flipper Darling doesn’t know much about the history of the RN. There hasn’t been many ships that’s been in RN service for more than 25 years before being scrapped or sold off. I can only think of four ships that managed 30 years since 1945.
Angus is right about construction and fitment. The money is made not by keeping the tub structure afloat, but the midlife refitting of all the toys on board, this can be done at Birkenhead, Wallsend or Barrow. What rUK will lack in the future will be suitable construction yards for capital vessels such as Frigates, Destroyers and Carriers, hence the reliance on the Scottish yards for those. If Scotland goes independent rUK will not be able to afford to run two carriers AND a fleet of nuclear subs, something must give and will be a Carrier or two.
As it stands today the UK is still in (mis)managed decline. Never mind the future of Scotland within the Union Mr Darling, it’s about time his and the other parties set out a vision for the whole of the UK (expect no answer on that either). Britain is deid!
Vote YES 2014!
@Rev Stu
The problem is that Cameron is incompetent as well. This makes it very difficult to interpret what he is up to, or not as the case may be. On the other hand, look at what he has done to Clegg, talk about a human shield. Overall though I honestly cannot believe that Cameron would get the name of the No campaign wrong twice, even calling it by the name of a Labour opponent! It has almost has to be deliberate.
@muttley
Sometimes I wonder if Scottish_Skier is right about the Tories
I can’t help wondering about that too 😉
It does seem that Dave et al. are staying very much out of the equation and every time they are involved it is either to help things along or intentionally rile the Scots.
”
Rory Scothorne: The Yes campaign has gathered a wide coalition of artists, intellectuals, writers, businessmen, activists and people from many other walks of life into a campaign that is undeniably built around autonomous, grassroots organisations (such as Women For Independence, National Collective and Radical Independence). Do you envisage anything of this sort emerging for Better Together?
Alistair Darling: Yes. There is an equally wide coalition who believe that Scotland is stronger and better as part of the UK. I’m in the course of visiting many parts of Scotland this week and that’s increasingly obvious to me.”
I can help Mr. Scothorne and Mr. Darling on this one. The No campaign coalition comprises:
Scottish Loyalist Front
Orange Order/Grand Orange Lodge
BNP
EDL/SDL
Ulster Unionist Party
Of course this is hardly the ‘dream team’ of British nationalism/unionism which is perhaps why Mr. Darling was so vague.
I don’t watch much telly these days. If i’m not following my hobby (astronomy) then I’m sitting in front of Wings over Scotland. Based on the weather recently 99.9% of my time has been spent in front of this web site
Ah Rabb, another astronomer! I wonder if we know each other from astro forums? I’ve been contemplating an “Astronomers for Independence” site. 🙂
I wanted to ask Darling why he reckons England will become a crazed Hermit Kingdom by stopping communication with any domiciled family and friends, ending British music and playing funny buggers with WMD.
@Brian Ritchie
I’m part of a small ‘weather geeks for independence group’. Nothing official though mind 🙂
I think I will start a wine lovers for independence group?
Buckfast excluded
Farcical nonsense.
@H Scott
you forgot to include the UVF who recently reared their ugly head.
@Scottish Skier
I’m coming round to your theory about the Tories too. They are turning London into a City State, the home counties are the safe rural idylls to commute from and the West Country is the weekend getaway for ‘Nigel and Tanyaah’. That’s it, no more necessary because that is where the swing votes are concentrated to gain power for all of the UK, and the future boundary changes will make it more so. So sod off the rUK South England is doing fine yah.
@Brian Mcritchie
Why not I’m up for that. It will give us something to concentrate on whilst waiting for the cloud to pi$$ off!!
I’m a semi regular on Astronomyshed and look in on stargazers lounge now and again 🙂
I’m a semi regular on Astronomyshed and look in on stargazers lounge now and again
I thought as much. I’m Smerral, the one whose avatar has the Saltire flying above the sun. ( a bit of a giveaway that lol) 😀 Maybe we could team up with Scottish Skier the weather guru and get him to remove the clouds. 🙂
HAHA!! A small world indeed Brian. It was your LX webcam work that persuaded me to purchase the Dion modded SPC900! Moved on to the QHY IMG32E now though.
Apologies for hijacking the comments Rev I’ll cut it short at that!!
Scottish Astronomers For Independence
Red wine and whisky drinkers for independence, then I am in!!
Apologies for hijacking the comments Rev I’ll cut it short at that!!
Scottish Astronomers For Independence
Yep, sorry Rev, we need to get back to the astro forums. 🙂
I ‘d just like to add that though I don’t often comment I have the highest regard for your site which is now my first port of call. Keep up the great work! 😀
@Seanair
Yep, you heard correctly. I heard it too. The phrase “Ah don’t know anybody who’s interested in independence” was kind of just lumped in there with previews of upcoming STV programmes. You are right, it was spoken out of context (I think it may have been spoken over, or just after a preview of a Scots Holiday programme) in an almost subliminal way.
I remember thinking how sleekit it was to have been thrown in there the way it was. I`ve seen it a few times since, but not recently.
Put me down for the astronomers group. 10.5″ LX200, home made webcam. Clear skies after independence!
back to topic: I think Cameron simply knows that Tories are poison in Scotland and will stay in the background. He may emerge with other big guns near the end if it looks as if they’re losing badly.
Did anyone else just sit and watch Simon Pia’s drivel on Scotland Tonight? Basically implying that Alistair Darling had gunned Salmond down at the tail end of this year? I must have been asleep for a few months because all I saw was Alex being misquoted by the unionist MSM and then getting a figure wrong on education.
Hardly a right doin from Darling??????
Roll on the “live debates” if the No campaign and MSM are brave enough to have them!
This may be a stupid question but I’ll ask it anyway. Will the General Election definitely come after the Referendum?
@Cameron says:
This may be a stupid question but I’ll ask it anyway. Will the General Election definitely come after the Referendum?
Debateable. I don’t see a snap election before the referendum unless the tories are striding ahead in the polls (not sure if it would be possible anyway and whether or not the LIB Dems would agree)
If we vote Yes then yes we will have our own in 2016.
If we vote No then we will be as well not having one because we won’t get the government we voted for anyway.
@Cameron
I think snap elections are now no longer possible under the Fixed term parliaments act 2011. The UK general election will be held in 2015 under this act and every 5 years thereafter. This was put forward by the coalition and attained royal ascent in September 2011.
In short. The UK general election will take place AFTER our referendum.
I think there are still provisions by which you CAN have early elections, you just need a big majority on the vote. Could be wrong.
@Rev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011
Yeah there is a two-thirds rule attached to the act stating parliament can be dissolved with support from two-thirds of its members.
I saw it too Rabb, utter drivel from the man from start to finish.
I missed Cameron getting the No campaign’s name wrong twice, could anyone point me in the direction of an article/clip of this? Cheers.
Oh, and whisky drinkers for independence? Count me in!
Oh just to add the two thirds rule ensures that the current parliament cannot be dissolved without the Tories consent as they hold more than 1/3 of the seats.
Rev,
You may well be correct.
There are two provisions in the act that allow for a snap election.
1. The parliament resolves as a whole that there is no confidence in the government.
2. There is a 2/3 majority that resolves there is no confidence in the government.
The act is vague (in my mind) as it could be constreud that it doesn’t actually become enforceable until after the next (2015) election. Therefore it may still be possible for David Cameron (with coalition backing) to ask for royal dissolution of parliament and hold said snap election without invoking any provisions of the new act.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/2/enacted
peter says:
7 January, 2013 at 10:19 pm
Red wine and whisky drinkers for independence, then I am in!!
I think, with James McLaren we may already have a quorum. 😉
On oil I found a paper by Professor Thomas W Wälde, Dundee Uni:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/cepmlp/journal/html/Vol14/Vol14_5.pdf
Sadly he died in a holiday accident in 2008. Reading this I kind of liked the guy. A German, he seems to have readily identified with Scotland and you can feel his grievance even in this short 4 page paper. I’d mark it as a must read.
It’s been stragenly quiet over the oil ownership from the legal profession, and I hope to see a paper on SCFF sometime soon. Perhaps though there’s a major work planned on this to blast the lid off the nonsense from the NO campaign. A note about him, a lost treasure of Scotland:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/cepmlp/staff/twalde.php
@ Rabb
Thank you for clarifying which Cameron you are talking about, and all the answers.
Darling on pensions: “I can’t answer this question because it would have to be negotiated. … I would have thought that having so long to think about the SNP would have an answer”.
Contradiction! He can’t answer it because it needs to be negotiated, therefore neither can the SNP no matter if they’ve had 305 years to think about it.
Good analysis Rev, and thanks for the transcription.
Anyway, good luck y’all. It’s time for me to go into rehab and break the independence obsession – I’ve a small business to run, and end of year accounts as well as getting ready for this year. It needs to be a good one. Bookmarks either deleted or archived! But I’ll read occasionally.
@ dadsarmy
All the best.
@James McLaren
“Darling really is better understood as a small town solicitor with aspirations to serve on the local council who slid up the greasy pole”
I think you misunderstand the man and his aspirations. To my mind his law degree was quite incidental or at best a fall-back; he was very active in student politics at university and cultivated friends in high places to ensure he was fast tracked without the need for a time serving apprenticeship in local government politics with the hoi poloi. He’s good a good conceit of himself and fancies himself as a bit of an operator …don’t misinterpret or under-estimate his measured tones and slow start…it’s trade-mark.
I guess it’s just as well that most of the Scotsman’s supposed 500,000 online readers are so called “cybernats” who will vote “yes” anyway. Judging from the vast majority of comments on their stories that is.
I’m assuming that the cyberbrit “no” supporters are no less articulate and motivated and can, therefore, only conclude that the contents is such God awful, biased, inarticulate and downright wrong crap that only those with a mission can be bothered to glance at it and take issue.
Just as well it’s free!
The other large chunk of hits come, I imagine, from the overseas Scottish diaspora who can’t vote anyway!
Where they got their erherm “questions” from I can’t imagine, but they are so inarticulate and badly phrased I must conclude that they came from real people and not from the editors aunty Nelly. Unless of course we fail to give them credit for more Machiavellian subtlety than the cack handed nature of the whole venture would seem to imply.
@Dcanmore
“they are turning London into a City State”
I must admit I’ve given this thought too. Another Hong Kong, Singapore, Tiawan?
Would be the perfect culmination of a right-wing agenda. Certainly, with the UK coming to an end and what remains to be no longer a big boy on the world stage, could be the thinking.
Worth remembering that in the past, the Tories did discuss literally ‘giving up’ on Northern cities like liverpool.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16355281
Put me down for the astronomers group. 10.5? LX200, home made webcam. Clear skies after independence!
Will do Vronsky – I’m working on a Facebook page. The idea for all this comes from Yes Scotland of course. The idea originates from Obama’s original campaign for the Presidency, when all sorts of groups were encouraged to build a grass roots campaign – there was even a Republicans for Obama, so nothing is off limits. So whisky and wine for independence would be fine Peter. Why not start a Facebook page. 🙂
For those interested, here’s the Astronomy Independence Facebook page. Once again, thanks for your indulgence Rev!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Astronomers-for-an-independent-Scotland/297706800329942
jake says:
Thanks for that but whether he is a aspiring cooncillor or a Murphy type reptilian upstart he is still way above his level of ability and that should be to our advantage
Those above questioning what they heard on STV last night.. it seemed to be a trailer for a forthcoming programme called ‘Road to the Referendum’ and was indeed characterised by a voice saying they ‘didn’t know anyone who was interested in independence’.
STV has form in this regard. An otherwise innocuous sponsorship blurb for parliamentary coverage around six months ago had the voice of Murdo Fraser imploring ‘why can’t the First Minister answer the question’? No counterbalancing voice was heard.
I have to say I’ve found STV’s coverage to be as bad as that of the BBC. Scotland Tonight is a superficial shambles, and, when presented by Rhona, displays a very noticeable default Unionist script to be followed.
Training Day
Don’t you think that the embedded message may backfire a little if everyone starts saying, “Did you hear that thing on STV last night?” and then start talking about the I word?
I spoke to a couple at a party at the weekend who brought up the subject of Independence and how they thought we couldn’t afford it.
I mentioned how, if they voted NO, that there was every possibility that they would have to pay tuition fees for their two sons as all the Unionist parties wanted a level playing field under the One Nation banner, not to mention the possibility of losing all the other hard won benefits.
You should have seen their faces and I think that there is every possibility that they will be voting YES. 🙂
Rabb says:
7 January, 2013 at 11:08 pm
“Did anyone else just sit and watch Simon Pia’s drivel on Scotland Tonight? ”
Pia also said that Darling was an internationally “respected politician.” How deluded these spin doctors become? They must actually drink their own pee. Pia is aptly named. There was also much reference later by McWhirter to the Barrasso “opinion” that had apparently scuppered Salmond. Blissfully ignoring the fact that the decision on Scotlands continuing membership is not for Barrosso to make. And that one month after independence we will still be in the EU as there is no legal mechanism to make it otherwise. What I do see forming is a strong argument for Scotland to join Norway as a trading partner, and to tell Brussels to do one. We need to regain control of our maritime borders and our fishing rights, the Spanish have had it all their own way for to long.
“There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches.”
I’ve updated the article in the light of what turns out to have been a lie by Darling on the subject of Scottish public-sector pensions. More info here:
http://www.yesscotland.net/answers_to_your_questions_on_pensions_and_an_independent_scotland
If we continue to let the likes of this drivel, be held up as responsible debate then we are in for a torrid time. Fear-mongering aside, Darling just doesn’t cut it. Now this should be seen as a good thing for the Yes vote but the danger lurking is that by muddying the waters with impunity, we desperately need a journalist / interviewer capable of probing and ridiculing these claims by the No voters. I’m also for somebody to also tackle the Yes panel about half-truths, lies.
The debate needs to be presented cleanly and clearly.
This is too serious an issue to be trivialised in biased press and TV clippings before a largely uneducated audience. Its more than just reputations at stake, it’s a nations future. Lets at least take it serious.
Yay, astronomers for indy! Will head over there next. I’m doing an OU course in astronomy, and did a brilliant summer school with them in Majorca last year 🙂
But back to the topic
I’ve been wondering about the coalitions thinking for a while. I have a sneaking suspicion at least some in the Tories/coalition are more bothered about getting a resounding outcome one way or the other than what that outcome actually is. It may be that they are being straight up and honest about not wanting more devolution, and that would be a fair enough stance for Westminster – Scottish opinion has moved quite fast on what powers we want and need, far too fast for a Westminster that really doesn’t care to keep up. If that’s so, the worst result for them, and the UK/Scotland generally would be a 52/48 split whatever way.
If they got an overwhelming No, that would give them carte blanche to do what they liked afterwards, and they would go down as “saviours of the union”. If it’s an overwhelming Yes, they lose a troublesome, non-Tory voting part of theUKand go into hard negotiation mode. So it’s a win/win for them.
Meanwhile, Better Together has always looked to me like a bit of a bear-trap for Labour. It could almost have been set by the Tories and SNP. Labour in bed with the Tories, devomax off the pitch, a campaign that looks totally right wing and extremist (and anti-Scottish). Whatever the result, it could seriously damage Labour inScotland, to the benefit of both the Tories and SNP.
If I was a Labour strategist right now, I’d be extremely worried I was being stiched up by the Tories. Where they step in it always appears to be helpful to the Yes campaign – like giving Salmond everything he really wanted in the Edinburgh agreement; sending Phil Hammond up to stand in front of a nuke telling us we’ll be keeping them; telling us the cost of indy will be £1 a year! If my theory is correct, if the coalition don’t think they can win a resounding no, they may instead go into a pre-negotiation position and subtly campaign for Yes, while sticking the knife into Labour.
The number of “blunders” coming from the UK government side, particularly the Tories, is indeed now starting to look just a little suspicious.
responsibility for paying pensions would have to be negotiated . So that we no longer have to pay for pensions in lesser Britain out of our resources.
I agree