Expressing a preference
Throughout the summer, the Scottish Government has been talking consistently about its goal being the “total elimination” of the coronavirus, and specifically contrasting that with England’s approach of merely “suppressing” it.
In the “framework for decision making” published in late April, the administration stated bluntly that “There is no such thing as a level of “acceptable loss”“ from the virus. But then yesterday something changed.
In the Programme For Government setting out the policy goals for the next 12 months, the bar had been lowered somewhat.
As of yesterday, the aim was no longer an uncompromising pursuit of total elimination with no acceptable level of losses, but only an England-style “suppress” approach, with elimination downgraded to a mere preference.
No acknowledgement or explanation was offered for this ostensibly significant change, and we can’t think of any reason why the Scottish Government would want to accept the prospect of the pandemic going on indefinitely oh wait a minute.
Now we get it.
Mate I’ve spent the morning on twitter having my head bit off for daring to criticise the party and the Messiah. Thanks for keeping them accountable. Your voice was never needed more
Very well spotted!
For some, this bug-related shitery won’t be ‘over’ until a vaccine becomes available.
(There’s still no vaccine for AIDS.)
For others, it won’t be ‘over’ until we’ve all been vaccinated.
(That isn’t ever going to happen, unless it’s mandatory, and even then…)
‘Ach, I’ll be giving up smoking as soon as this cough clears up!’
Oh for goodness sake. I’m beginning to think that “Wings” is becoming unhinged. Scotland is led by the most accomplished politician in the UK and support for Indy has never been higher. Yet, the “Rev” decides that now is the time to undermine the movement.
Oh FFS give it a rest!
Even you must know that total elimination of the virus is not achievable in Scotland while it continues to exist elsewhere, particularly since the Scottish government cannot control our borders. To turn this into a conspiracy about a Scottish independence is unworthy of your otherwise normally reasonable posts.
@David_Mogg the problem is that there is no “Movement” in the Movement and until we all can see that then Queen Nic can sit in Bute House with a nice wee paycheck for years without moving a finger in the directiion of Indy…..
Keep it up Rev!
@David_Mogg the problem is that there is no “Movement” in the Movement and until we all can see that then Queen Nic can sit in Bute House with a nice wee paycheck for years without moving a finger in the directiion of Indy…..
Keep it up Rev Stu!
the Rev doesn’t need to undermine the movement, the SNP leadership is perfectly able to address this task itself with jam tomorrow announcements like this.
Which will take longer? Eliminating the virus or suppressing it while the rest of the UK are choosing the latter option?
Stuart Campbell reports precise and accurate news, changes of Govt policy, sudden altering of stance etc and he’s being criticised here? I find that extremely suspect.
OT: Craig Murray exposes nonsensical, Johnsonesque, Covid ruling by Scot Gov and still can’t get through to those who follow blindly.
If these people loyally ban their family from visiting them at home, by dint of not seeing how illogical latest Scot Gov guidelines translate, then they’re no better than those who unquestioningly follow guidelines from the Orange Order.
Sorry, but on this occasion, I have to disagree. “suppress” is a pragmatic choice whereas elimination will be difficult to achieve without a vaccine.
Makes a lot of sense, and also it’s a vote winner for Sturgeon. As long as people are running around in fear of Coronavirus, they aren’t looking at her brazen deceit, contradictions, and twisted vindictiveness. Note the effort she puts into pretending she is consumed by love and concern for us all… then look at the death toll which could have been avoided.
Sturgeon is a monster. I look at her eyes and see the same darkness in her that I saw in Blair. Once you see that in her, the way she delivers, the fake hesitance, the cooked up phrases, all designed to give the impression she’s being frank, off the cuff, sincere, you realise all hope is lost.
Coronavirus will ultimately bring her down. Thousands have needlessly died because of her mishandling and callous disregard. And it’s likely she will sacrifice thousands more — if it helps her politically, she won’t hesitate.
Please keep up the focus on this stuff, wings. Everything you need to take her down is right there, with more to follow. It’s been lie after lie, one piled on top of the other along with the dead at the altar her egoism.
” Scotland is led by the most accomplished politician in the UK”
To be honest that is not a very high bar.
The best site I’ve found for setting out the COVID data with full references and links is “Swiss Policy Research”.
Their latest update (September) is up and worth reading – and checking sources and links – to get a handle on the actual facts.
link to swprs.org
I see no reason why Scotland shouldn’t be pushing forcefully and aggressively right now for making independence happen, especially since (like the comment above) many people seem to blame being stuck in the UK for not having more control over the Scottish handling of the virus.
Yeah, Stu – ma thoughts entirely. Wonder what Devi Sirdar makes of this change?
In common with Alison, the first poster on this thread, I have spent the morning, in my case on Facebook, fielding abuse from true believers in the cult of Sturgeon.
They never tackle the point I am making, the absolute failure of the SNP leadership to move forward on INdependence, but, I must not criticise the Chosen One.
Only a vaccine which works will eliminate Covid-19, otherwise, it has to be suppression as the best course of action.
So, since suppression is the name of the game, the SNP should maybe be paying some attention to their main reason for existing – Independence.
But, I doubt if that is a priority for Wee Nippy and her cult followers.
The summer is over, that’s what has changed – schools are back. And now outbreaks are inevitably happening and have to be contained locally. That’s the new reality. Elimination is a Who term and it doesn’t mean the same as eradication. I don’t think there are many voices calling for kids to be sent home again and lockdown to resume – are you? And to draw a correlation between this and staving off independence is real tin foil hat stuff
David Mogg says:
“Yet, the “Rev” decides that now is the time to undermine the movement.”
Independence is the MOVEMENT
SNP is a vehicle and at the moment it would appear that there’s a fuel shortage or possibly the engine has been removed and put into another form of transport to fulfil another purpose:-)
It is by the ignoring of such twists-and-turns in the area of policy that we’ve come to be where we are. Invigilance isn’t an option in a democracy, no matter how unglamorous the hard work involved and its results might seem.
Mr Wings, you are vital to the independence movement because you FORCE people to prove you wrong – let’s see if Nicola Sturgeon does that.
You must be the veritable Scunnered Campbell at times:-)
““suppress” is a pragmatic choice whereas elimination will be difficult to achieve without a vaccine.”
You’ve somewhat missed the point of the article.
You may as well try to totally eliminate that other strain of Coronavirus, the common cold.
Epidemiologists creating doomsday computer models are behind this, not virologists.
Covid-19 disease does take the lives of the weak, who would be vulnerable to any form of disease. Life is not fair guys!
The exaggeration of the virulence of Covid and labelling it highly pathogenic is a criminal distortion of fact. 2007 ‘pandemic’ was similarly described. Who remembers that?
The genetic sequencing of this disease hasn’t yet been successfully completed. Yet all kinds of apocalyptic forecasts proliferate.
Until someone on the planet shows leadership and declares this thing has no clothes “THEY” will continue to ruin communities, countries and lives and make neurotic slaves of us all while making ¥$€ in the process.
That is the real sickness. Gross ignorance is its prime symptom.
Sturgeon is not working for Scotland or humanity.
David Mogg,
Unfortunately for your argument, high support for independence is irrelevant if the plan is then to ask Boris Johnson for permission to hold a referendum.
It is sad to see so many people desperately clutching this comfort blanket of wishful thinking.
At what point will it become clear to you that Boris Johnson will not be embarrassed into granting permission to hold an independence referendum.
But let’s examine the scenario that Boris does feel obliged to grant a Section 30 because of high support for independence in polls. This would also mean there would be no need for an SNP government in HE 2021 as any MSP of any colour would vote for an independence referendum on exactly the same grounds as Boris Johnson would.
I’m sorry if this is confusing for and that you may immediately need to seek solace in your comfort blanket of fluffy clouds and unicorns or run to the WGD to hear some comforting lies but this site is for the big boys and girls who aren’t afraid to talk about the real world.
“I don’t think there are many voices calling for kids to be sent home again and lockdown to resume – are you?”
It’s not what this article is about, but if you’re asking, yes. I think the only achievable way to kill the virus is to choke it to death, which means going back to the original lockdown but doing it a little longer.
If we’d kept it up solidly from March, instead of caving after a couple of months, we’d probably have killed COVID-19 by now and be getting back to normal life, because to survive it needs to keep infecting new people. Pissing about with half-arsed piecemeal stuff will let it live until there’s a vaccine.
4-5 months of full lockdown beats the hell out of social distancing for untold years, IMO.
A precursor to cancelling May elections perhaps ?
@David Mogg says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:03 pm
“Scotland is led by the most accomplished politician in the UK”
No she’s not.
Her response to COVID, while better than Westminster’s (not difficult), she still had failings. Basing her competence on a single issue is flawed.
She’s had an easy ride. Ineffective opposition at Holyrood and she avoids the bearpit that is Westminster.
All she wants is another 5 years as FM. Nice salary, pension and the perks that go with the job. No need to get stressed out about how to transition to an independent state (anyone who thinks that will be easy is deluded). Let someone else deal with it, as she will no doubt get an nice UN or perhaps EU commissioner slot.
Flippin heck.
Anyone who works in science would recognise the structure of that target in the PFG.
It’s really quite simple: say what ‘process’ you’re going to employ, and the intended ‘destination’.
Alert readers will not recognise any substantial difference in the realistic target set in the PFG from what’s been articulated up to now.
Interpreting this as a shift in policy for nefarious purposes is chucklesome.
No vaccine for anyone until everything in that vaccine has been proven not to harm or have side effects to a person, baby or child,
Until by law every ingredient in that vaccine is listed for the patient to read and decide for themselves,
And weather it is ascertained with due diligence that people with other underlying illnesses will not have long term side affects or death.
Especially as there are questionable ethics circulating that laws are in place to protect the companies against being sued if anything should go wrong,
There are debates as to wether certain vaccines being given to children have created autism,
And we know medicine for pregnant women was OKAYed by every country and government that saw a profit caused immense damage for newborn babies,
It took years of stress and finances for families to sue these big companies when they had thalidomide babies,
Are you willing to cause harm to yourself, your children, or mother or father, with no recourse to hold the companies or governments accountable if it is found to have devastating effects a few months or years time,
Cancer patients have not got a cure yet, how long are you willing to wait? And are you willing to cut safety corners?
“But, I doubt if that is a priority for Wee Nippy and her cult followers.”
Much as I dislike her, I’m still not standing for “Wee Nippy” here. It stinks coming from Unionists and it stinks coming from us too. Don’t make me delete any more comments.
“Alert readers will not recognise any substantial difference in the realistic target set in the PFG from what’s been articulated up to now.”
Then they’re not alert.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Expressing a preference Throughout the summer, the Scottish Government has been talking consistently about its […]
This is ” the goal ” vs ” the goal in the next 12 months ”
I don’t think it takes doublethink to want to eradicate the virus, but only be hopeful of doing this within the next year.
Still have huge misgivings about her ‘after the impact of the virus’ position though.
@James Che. says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:52 pm
“No vaccine for anyone until everything in that vaccine has been proven not to harm or have side effects to a person, baby or child,”
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a 100% safe vaccine, or even medicine for that matter.
If you want a nasty vaccination, try the first part of Typhoid (live virus). Floored me for a couple of days. Still, better than catching the blooming thing.
David Mogg, are you any relation to Rees Mogg.
Sound s like you are both related
The WHO has stated several times that the virus can only be contained, and not eliminated, until there’s a widely available and effective vaccine. Maybe that’s the reason given that the earliest that one could be available would be at the end of 2021?
Sorry Rev, I was with you right up to this article. The reality is that COVID-19 is here to stay, just like the flu. The window to eliminate was in December/January, before it reached western shores where governments are much less likely to do what is needed to eliminate it quickly and effectively – not just a lockdown but compulsory masks, fast large-scale testing and effective tracing.
Since none of that has been implemented until recently the pandemic has effectively become an endemic, just like flu. If we’re willing to live with the consequences of flu, despite there being a vaccine available each year, then we’re now going to have to live with the consequences of covid-19.
I agree that back in March and April was when the world needed to effectively lock down to get rid of it but it didn’t happen and Pandora’s box is open and can’t be closed. South Korea, Japan, New Zealand, etc were very effective at suppressing it in the beginning and still maintain low numbers but they’ve been unable to eradicate it completely, and it’s understandable that they can’t given covid’s nature and the world we live in.
The Scottish Government were too jingoistic and righteous in the beginning but now recognise the impossibility of completely defeating covid-19, and have updated their stance accordingly.
I do worry that this will impact when it’s decided by the SNP that a referendum can be called, but changing their stance on defeating covid-19 was very unlikely to be done simply to kick the referendum ball down the line.
@James Che. says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:52 pm
“No vaccine for anyone until everything in that vaccine has been proven not to harm or have side effects to a person, baby or child,”
As Beaker above states, no vaccine is 100% safe. It’s whether the vaccine is safer than the disease and all vaccines are more safe than the disease, else no-one would use them, especially public health services and health insurance companies in other lands.
Tom Kelly says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:06 pm
Even you must know that total elimination of the virus is not achievable in Scotland while it continues
Elsewhere.
That’s the nail on the head Tom, if we were independent we could stop people like Boris, Prince Charles and Cummings types bringing the virus over the border.
This is another reason for Independence.
The Chinese City where the virus first appears is now free of the virus.
Why shouldn’t Scotland be capable of that if we rid ourselves of the bungling Tories
at Westminster.
I’d like Boris in his wonderful magnificent England to spend some time
Explaining why Germany with a much larger population has lower infection rates
Throughout and a Fifth of the Covid Death rate and a stronger economy after 10 years of Tory
Rule and Austerity?
Why Nicola can Billions worth on new none disclosure contracts can be signed during the Covid crisis and the Final Brexit negotiations are being carried out and Boris can take holidays and weekends off and avoid Cobra meeting while you can’t work on Covid and Independence?
Rev Stuaart Campbell
Fair enough, slap on the wrist for using W** N***y accepted and understood. No more.
But, please be aware, from someone from Ayrshire, who is less than six stages of separation away from the lady, she is a nippy wee so-and-so.
Announcements, announcements, announcements…
Imelda Marcos Sturgeon doing what she does best.
She (Sturgeon) must honour her word on independence this time, for if she’s prepared to go ahead with the elections next year, then there can be no excuses on setting a date for independence referendum as well, if not, then apart from the totally deluded acolytes of Sturgeon who will buy the excuses, most independence minded folk will suspect foul play this time.
Again I refer to the EU power grab by Westminster which will severely damage our parliaments ability to govern properly. Just why would Sturgeon allow Westminster to severely restrict Holyrood’s ability to govern especially when the SNP are in power.
Of course if Sturgeon does fight the power grab via the courts and loses, she can point the finger of blame South to Westminster, that would probably lead to a surge in support for independence, but Sturgeon would need to change her plan of needing consent from Johnson.
Covid-19 has allowed Sturgeon a breather from having to deal with independence, she would’ve surely been rumbled by now on her dubious promise of holding an independence referendum this year.
The SNP has been assimilated into the colonial administration. If Sturgeon gets the heaveho she’ll only be replaced by some other manager of UK:Scotland Branch.
Wasted years.
Independence has to be rebuilt from the ground up. A new independence party with an effective leader to take the constituency seats, plus a regional list vote party, or two, unconnected, but sharing the goal. The SNP needs to be wiped away, like Labour was. This can happen astonishingly quickly.
Well that’s how it looks to me, not an insider.
Total elimination in Scotland is as close to impossible as makes no difference. As long as the virus exists somewhere in the world it is still a threat and precautions still have to be taken. This is true of countries which control their borders. It must be even more true of Scotland where we have no such control.
Isolation is the key to eliminating the virus to whatever extent this may be possible. The point of eliminating it within the population of a country is that this allows a move away from individual, household and community isolation to isolation at a national level. Which is obviously far less intrusive and burdensome for the vast majority of people. Only those travelling across the border would be trouble by the precautions. Otherwise, life can return to something approaching what was previously considered normal.
I think Nicola Sturgeon has realised that if she hoped to achieve elimination of coronavirus in Scotland this would require that she confront the British government on the issue of border control and win that confrontation. Nicola Sturgeon does not do confrontational politics. We know that painfully well from her performance regarding the constitutional issue. She remains wedded to the Section 30 process for the same reason she has had to back-pedal on eliminating coronavirus. She will not do the kind of assertive – even aggressive – politics that would be necessary if she didn’t.
Which begs the question – is Nicola Sturgeon a leader for our time?
Sorry, but this is the end of me following Wings. Stuart has morphed into a grubby caricature of everything that he used to hate: single-issue fringe groups thinking they have the right to dictate what (& who) is right and wrong, taking newspaper headlines at face value [yesterday’s post] and SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS [all yesterday’s comments].
As my mother used to say, “if you can’t say anything constructive, don’t say anything at all.”
Agree ” Wee Nippy” is a unionist line of attack. We should not resort to such juvenile character assassinations. Pick apart her record and her general attitude, but leave name calling for the Brits.
It doesn’t matter how much lockdown and social distancing you have – without a vaccine you can’t eliminate Covid-19. Hence the facing up to reality and the change in approach from ScotGov.
Similarly, it doesn’t matter how many mandates you have – without a majority in favour (and ScotGov’s threshold is clearly for a sustained voter majority even before the campaign starts) you are never going to win independence.
The announcements yesterday about a draft bill for the referendum seem to the jaundiced like the same old rehashed guff we were served up last time, but it has to be acknowledged that circumstances have changed significantly since previous mandates were won.
Among those circumstances is that support for independence is now well above 50% and likely to increase and ScotGov is very widely regarded as significantly more competent and empathetic than UKGov.
Voters can also see that, after years of uncertainty and the hope that it would turn out all right in the end, it is becoming clearer that UKGov is deliberately aiming at going through with a disastrous no-deal Brexit.
So if ScotGov can change policy on Covid-19, because they know they can’t win, then I think it’s reasonable to assume that they will change policy (and action) with regard to indyref2, when they realise that we can win.
Oh, please be wrong this time, Stu.
@Sheikh Mabunnet,
You just broke your mother’s rule .
Trying to herd cats comes to mind.
So “wee nippy” is sanctioned but an admitted Tory Unionist can use Imelda Sturgeon and Mrs Murrel This allowed makes me sad.
Independence is normal ad hominem is what it is,shunt spreaders are what they are. Have a good day y’all.Being a nippy sweety is something I am proud to bear.
I’m not saying it’s aliens but………it’s aliens 🙂
Has she been compromised ind if so how
Total elimination was always an absurd goal, even New Zealand the poster boy for that policy which has all sorts of advantages like geographic isolation and low population density is now having an outbreak. The question is was nicola really so naive to believe that was a realistic goal and what sort of advice is she getting from her supposedly expert advisers, or was it just a political stunt to try and embarrass the UK by making it look as if they weren’t doing enough?
There is still no evidence that lockdown saves any lives or even suppresses the virus, just look at argentina as an example. They have had one of the most severe and longest running lockdowns in the world but there numbers are now higher than ever whereas in Sweden a place that resisted taking extreme uninformed reactionary measures never had a lockdown, only light social distancing measures and hygiene advice (this was despite the massive international campaign to discredit the Swedish approach), and has already returned to near normality. Lockdowns are not the only way to handle this virus and its a shame that the Scottish people are gullible enough to believe that nicolas terribly inconsistent measures are the only option.
Lets all post our SNP membership numbers, here is mine
MEMBER
1827617
No membership number and I will not comment or read anything you put on here
We were initially told that the lock down procedures were required to ‘flatten the curve’ and prevent our NHS being overwhelmed and therefore unable to deliver treatment to us.
The vote is in at WM for our NHS to be sold to Trump – and a No Deal Brexit is 3 months away to get that over the line.
Indy is now extremely necessary, and pretty much the only way I can see, for us to save our NHS – which deals with all sorts of illnesses and medical emergencies of which Covid is but one.
We go to vote in May for Holyrood Elections.
On that day, and as close to voting stations as possible, we hold an unofficial/official Indy Ref.
The SNP even back in 2014 – under Alex – were decidedly ‘clunky’ when it came to campaigning for Indy. The inspiring stuff came from you lot.
Lets get the polls to 60% before the end of the year.
We can do so much better than Boris.
Now that the Scottish Government has let the image of its infallibility and competence slip, minds should be starting to focus on how best to manage this situation. As Tom Kelly says, covid cannot be managed if you cannot manage the borders.
So one hand we have a government keen to tackle the pandemic and on the other we have a clear need to put a little social distancing between ourselves and that large reservoir of infection to the south. So, it’s time to entwine the two and make it impossible for the Scottish Government to talk about managing covid without saying in the same breath that can only be possible with complete control of the country.
It’s the single most important factor that would create a better outcome for hundreds of thousands of elderly and vulnerable Scots. It would be utter incompetence to ignore it.
Never let a crisis go to waste.
@ Peter A Bell
I agree with that assessment. I used to like her brand of consensual, gradual persuasion, but now with all this time gone and brexit hurtling towards us and boris coming for Holyrood we no longer have time for niceties.
1692723. Former membership number sadly.
David it’s not just SNP members who make valid points. There are many who can think outside that particular box.
@Polly,
If the German newspapers are correct about Mrs Merkel then the 9th of this month is the no deal cut off.
@ Famous15
Have you contacted Stuart to complain about it? I’m guessing since he was commenting he saw the ‘nippy’ comment himself. It is used disparagingly just as the ones you complain of are too. He can’t be held responsible for all stupid comments if people don’t tell him. But since she is Mrs Murrell I don’t see how that is insult.
@ Bob Mack
Yes I noticed that too. We don’t have time for niceties.
While I sort of agree with Stu about a longer lockdown choking it off that would have required joined-up thinking.
You can’t get rid of the virus when you have hundreds of thousands of people arriving in the country who aren’t tested or traced upon entry.
Leicester (my nearest city) has had repeated outbreaks linked to UK Indian/Pakistani family members returning from areas in both countries with serious outbreaks. There was an entire busload of people from one flight who were just left to go home despite many of them displaying symptoms.
Its a total farce in England – to the extent its hard to believe it isn’t deliberate policy decisions being made at the highest level to continue infecting a certain number of people each week. I’m not going to go into the disproportionate number of poor (BAME mainly) being infected and dying but it’d be entirely consistent with Cummings previous “thoughts” on eugenics.
Sturgeon won’t ever call a referendum unless its a choice between that and being “deposed/removed” from the SNP heirarchy.
Covid-19 is just a huge relief in some ways for the SNP heirarchy – from not having to justify a tiny, hand-picked attendees/party employees only conference to “now is not the time” for indyref2 because of the pandemic.
Disappointing but not surprising.
Polly … but she might not be Mrs Murrell. In Scotland at least (I don’t know about rump UK), there is no moral, ethical or legal requirement for a woman to take her husband’s name. Lots of women don’t, especially when, like NS, she has become well known before marriage.
How can the SNP change direction? Very difficult. Albert Eistein insisted you couldn’t solve problems by using the same thinking that created them.
I think new leadership is required in the party at many levels.
All the global measures against covid-19 were taken because there was a pandemic. What’s more, a pandemic of a previously unencountered virus. But it is not an HCID, and that ought to be the salient fact now.
“Sheikh Mabunnet says:
2 September, 2020 at 1:16 pm
Sorry, but this is the end of me following Wings. Stuart has morphed into a grubby caricature of everything that he used to hate: single-issue fringe groups thinking they have the right to dictate what (& who) is right and wrong, taking newspaper headlines at face value [yesterday’s post] and SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS [all yesterday’s comments].
As my mother used to say, “if you can’t say anything constructive, don’t say anything at all.” ”
A construct is what you make it Mabunnet and you need material from which to create your construct. Wings provids the material time and time again.
‘Babies and bathwater’ comes to mind:-)
@ Marshall Adair
Indeed. But there’s no reason to see Murrell as an insult, unless the wife in question despises the husband anyway. So it’s very different called her Mrs than Imelda or Nippy, both of which are unionist tropes which are not something we should follow, especially as it just looks so childish.
To have called her. Sorry
Andrew Scott says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:24 pm
Sorry, but on this occasion, I have to disagree. “suppress” is a pragmatic choice..
There was no need to use the word “suppress”. “Continue in our goal to eliminate – Covid 19” would have worked just as well. This probably means there’s been a change of emphasis at the coal face and this statement quashes any rumours about it.
This is the latest from Craig Murray’s blog where unfortunately he has to launch an appeal for further funds to fight his court case . He understands that times are difficult for people just now but if we could all help him out in his fundraiser where possible . At least Craig is standing up for justice for himself and the whole of Scotland .
link to craigmurray.org.uk
David Caledonia says:
2 September, 2020 at 1:42 pm
Post our membership numbers? This is a pro-Indy blog not an SNP site. ?
The one thing that Donald Trump got right was ‘the more people you test the more people with covid you will find’
That’s the main reason for the rise in figures in Scotland recently. If people care to look at the testing data which is available to all you will see a couple of strange anomalies:-)
Ms Sturgeon will use these figures to her own ends, be sure of that.
“Jim McIntosh says:
2 September, 2020 at 2:33 pm
Andrew Scott says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:24 pm
Sorry, but on this occasion, I have to disagree. “suppress” is a pragmatic choice..”
Nicola Sturgeon is a lawyer she produces very few careless words
If this is correct it’s a game changer!
I like to think our pressure has forced the hand of the SNP.
link to barrheadboy.com
holymacmoses says:
2 September, 2020 at 2:47 pm
That’s my point. The words are deliberate. The only other reason I can suggest the “suppress” comment has been used is as bait. When a reporter asks why the change of emphasis she states it’s become clear without total control of our borders (independence) elimination is not possible *close trap*.
@Big Jock
You’re better than that mate.
Ask yourself why there is an election between now and this supposed Referendum and everything becomes much clearer.
Great comment by Breeks, copied from previous thread:
@Big Jock,
Why would the UK Government need to challenge in court? They would be happy with the status quo.
That would surely have to be the SNP that does that action.
I can confirm from anguished people in Sturgeon’s own constituency that nothing is being done in terms of social or mental-health support.
I know of one desperate person wrote to an SNP MSP on this exact matter and did not even receive a reply.
It is the duplicity which annoys me. Like always promising a referendum NEXT parliament.
Remember ‘flatten the curve’?That was April and here we still are.
Bob – From my understanding the UK government would try and block the legislation from passing the HOL. Even Holyrood must seek approval for bills. If you recall they did the same with the minimum pricing on alcohol.
It ended up in court. Similar circumstances.
I am not saying that all of this will come to pass. However at least we are seeing signs of a positive challenge to the WM rule.
Anyway, surely Nicola Sturgeon is acting in the opposite direction than one would normally have thought?
A virus comes along… so you say: this thing is so frightening and important that we need to become independent to solve the problem, concentrate our resources on a purely Scottish approach, close borders if necessary, have these powers for real…
No?
@Big Jock
It was the Scotch Whisky Association that took ScotGov to court over minimum pricing.
Scottish Parliament legislation requires Royal Assent but no ‘approval’ from Westminster.
Westminster won’t care anyway because they know they can retrospectively strike down anything they like thanks to the Supreme Court ruling on the EU Continuity Bill.
Of course it’s all just a coincidence, nothing coordinated at a higher level.
But, this headline, and story, has just popped up in my country (Australia) about one of the world’s most draconian lock-downs:
“Elimination vs ‘tight suppression’ as Victoria exits lockdown”
Experts warn Australia will never be able to pursue an elimination strategy, as Victoria’s residents anxiously watch daily infection numbers gradually decline and wait to hear the plan for lifting the strict stage-four lockdown.
Despite falling case numbers, with new infections concentrated in hospitals and aged care facilities rather than the wider community, Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton’s talk of achieving “the lowest possible” number of cases has sparked concern that Victoria may be pushing for the impossible.
….
Dr Sutton said on Wednesday that Victorian health authorities wanted to “get cases below 30” new infections per day and drive down “mystery cases” acquired locally without a known source to “very low single figures” through aggressive contact tracing.
Asked if one mystery case per day would be “tolerable”, Dr Sutton said the daily average was not the relevant measure as there could be “a significant number that you can’t track down in a short period of time”.
…
UNSW Kirby Institute Professor Raina MacIntyre said the best path out of stage four would be, once daily cases were in the low double digits, “to maintain the mask mandate, and to promote mask use as a tool that may enable freedom, rather than one that removes freedom.”
“Maintaining social distancing, making testing easy, controlling the size of gatherings, continuing hotel quarantine and having a low threshold for increasing the use of these measures – including lockdowns – at the first sign of a resurgence,” she said.”
—————————-
Funny how just like Scotland, Victorians were told that elimination was the strategy and everyone would have to be held under a form of house arrest until that was achieved, only a few months tops they were assured.
[Source: “The Age”]
SUPPRESS
verb (used with object)
1 to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.):
2 to suppress the Communist and certain left-leaning parties.
3 to do away with by or as by authority; abolish; stop (a practice, custom, etc.).
4 to keep in or repress (a feeling, smile, groan, etc.).
5 to withhold from disclosure or publication (truth, evidence, a book, names, etc.).
6 to stop or arrest (a flow, hemorrhage, cough, virus etc.).
7 to vanquish or subdue (a revolt, rebellion, etc.); quell; crush.
As you can see, suppress has many faces.
@Ottomanboi, 12.39
Good post.
David Caledonia
When you named Nicola Sturgeon,,,
“The Wee Ginger Dug”,
I couldn’t stop laughing.
That is the stuff only a pure Genius could come up with.
On a par with Billy Connolly material there.
David Caledonia,,,go to the top of the class sir.
I will never be able to listen to the name “The Wee Ginger Dug” being mentioned without thinking of Nicola Sturgeon.
Brilliant!!!
Positive test results do not necessarily mean illness.
The test picks up ‘fragments’ of all corona viruses .
It is more likely the public have reached herd immunity and that’s what is reflected in the positives results.
A million people marched in Berlin for freedom.
Why was Piers Corbyn arrested by Boris and fined 10,000 grand but BLM Antifa and Extincion Rebellion get Carter Blanche? Answers on a cigarette paper if you like.
Dissedent – The Scottish referendum bill will probably be passed to Westminster because it’s allegedly a reserved matter. So needs HOL approval.
The way I see it . If WM refuse to approve it. Then the SG intend to proceed with the referendum without WM agreement. They suspect the WM government will take them to court to prevent the referendum taking place at all, with or without agreement.
You are correct that normal Bills just need Royal Ascent.
Sad that you seem to have fallen into jersey holder for the bullies, Ian. I thought you were better than that.
Carte Blanche for Government rentamobs
To be fair I think its recognition that elimination isnt possible with the powers available to the Scottish Government.
The state of Victoria is currently occupied by the Wehrmacht. If anybody thinks it’s OK to arrest a pregnant woman in front of her children for posting about a freedom demo then we truly have kapos amongst us
Bob Mack says:
2 September, 2020 at 2:13 pm
How can the SNP change direction? Very difficult. Albert Eistein insisted you couldn’t solve problems by using the same thinking that created them.
I think new leadership is required in the party at many levels.
Well, if I was Nicola’s position, and wanted to stave off imminent rebellion that threatened my realm as First Minister, I’d be trying to hold a summit.
I’d be inviting the most vocal and outspoken of my critics to an appropriately socially distanced convention held in a secret location away from the media, and start sharing some home truths and mentioning some unmentionables.
It would literally be ceasfire talks being held before the shooting began.
I’d have everybody parking their badges and membership cards at the door, and be free to speak their mind irrespective of party allegiance or political ‘weight’. If Joanna Cherry wanted to light the fires of a Constitutional assault on the Union, go ahead and voice the proposal.
I’d have my own party represented of course, but I’d invite AUOB people, YES people, New Media people, Common Weal people, Bloggers, especially problematic bloggers who could make trouble for me, and I’d also include Craig Murray, Lesley Riddoch, yes Alex Salmond, and I would actually consider extending invites to anybody who had some degree of noteable profile… yes, even the Wokists, (although I might need to provide a chicken wire screen like Blues Brothers in Bob’s Country Bunker). Thats a joke by the way. I’d have the Wokists represented, but GRA and Science Denying would not be on the agenda.
In short, I’d basically have a Convention like a political convention, but it would be a pro Independence convention. No lobbying groups or BritNat propagandists within 100 miles of the place, (figuratively speaking). As a group, we’d be in total control of the narrative, and if the public needed to be informed of a thing, it would be Scottish media producers doing the informing.
Then, we’d begin. We’d go through the pros and cons of every possible scenario, from referendums to UDI’s, civil disorder to public strikes… We would try wherever possible to settle our differences, and find a way to progress Scottish Independence that everybody can get behind, and make a strength out of our diversity which worked so well for us back in 2014.
While our talks might be confidential, I would hope for as little as humanly possible to be secret.
If I was First Minister, I would listen, knowing my own position had to change, but that we’d win or lose Scottish Independence as a mutually supportive YES movement, not a fractured and frustrated starburst of angry individuals.
And if I was there but NOT as First Minister, a large portion of the agenda would be taken up with Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty and submissions to the UN. This was the vital missing component from the 2014 Campaign, but it is the key to our success.
If I was First Minister again, and the mood was for me to step down, then I would bite the bullet and discuss how to do that in a way that best served the needs of Scotland, perhaps by provoking early elections.
That’s what I’d do, and while I wouldn’t ignore COVID, I wouldn’t be regarding it as the biggest emergency on the agenda.
Ahh, reading twice I get the gist.
Eliminating would be a (possible) tangible end point. Suppressing is indefinite, nay endless. Many communicable diseases have been suppressed for decades and it’s an ongoing effort, with no end by ‘elimination’ in sight.
Semantics can be hard.
It’s a bit of reach though, to equate an inferred policy of endless suppression with a definite policy of endless nae Independe…. ahh well, hmmm.
@ Big Jock
Yes Barrheadboy does make a persuasive argument in that blog post. As others say here I understand the feeling of ‘why always after we elect them next time’ though? Last time it was May calling unexpected election, Boris could do that again this time, or the rumours we’ve heard that he might step down as soon as brexit happens citing health issues – will that be another reason to scrap plans? Unless there is something unequivocal/concrete in their statement about a referendum or their plans for it going forward then it’s really similar promises we’ve heard before.
Saying that though, and being deeply disillusioned myself, I do still intend to vote SNP on the constituency since I agree, even if the present party leadership are too scared to take on Westminster, that the highest turnout for independence parties is needed for Scotland to be seen to speak with one voice and that voice cries out ‘we want independence’. That’s important at this time, even if the present lot are shillyshallying, for if we do get a strong independence vote then outside observers will note that. And I agree with him they are important. And after this one last election for SNP, if they can’t deliver, we’ll be stuck for a while anyway and need to focus on new parties but for the moment they are all we have to create that large voice. But it is obviously the very last chance they have to prove they are the party I hoped they’d be.
@Kenny, 3.40
A virus comes along… so you say: this thing is so frightening and important that we need to become independent to solve the problem, concentrate our resources on a purely Scottish approach, close borders if necessary, have these powers for real…
Yes, I would add “take medical advice from experts in other countries, focus on protecting the key demographic affected by the virus while allowing normal life to continue”
O/T.
The German authorities claim that Putin’s opposition leader Navalny was poisoned with a type of Novichok. Navalny isn’t dead, and Novichok is known to be one of the most lethal poisons around.
The Salisbury alleged poisoning official narrative has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese, this new Novichok poisoning will probably follow suit, however the truth doesn’t matte, its the illusion of guilt that really matters, Germany’s allies are already forming a plan to retaliate against Russia more than likely more severe sanctions.
Putin would need to be pretty stupid to poison Navalny with Novichok, after the negative press he and Russia received globally after the Salisbury inconclusive guilty verdict, that’s why I doubt he had it carried out.
So, now that the Empress has been seen to have fewer clothes on than Miley Cyrus, what next for those who are pro-Indy but now find themselves politically homeless???
Meanwhile Bulgaria manages to have an election, covid or not. Life goes on in other countries.
If we were independent then we would have many more of the levers necessary to defeat the virus. The ability to close our borders. To extend the wage furlough. To borrow or print more money (much the same thing) to deal with it all and of course to manage our economy to our benefit not have to put up with one geared to just benefit the City of London.
I we voted Yes we could also have demanded the instant return of many necessary powers and money to build up to Indy. Also the very proces of building the institutions, departments etc etc of an independent country would boost GDP in an of itself especially if there was an express policy to buy local as much as possible.
The Christchurch & Kaikoura quakes in NZ were devastating but they measurably boosted GDP as well as all the rebuilding boosted economic activity. They are still working on making the road along the coast better. If you go it’s fantastic either driving it or taking the train which has a special viewing carriage with roof windows.
Think what we could do with tourist trains like that in Scotland once we are independent.
Juteman @ 3.57
That’s unfair and uncalled for.
The point of being here is to comment and to say which points you agree or disagree with.
Even the subject of independence falls under the Revs invite here.
To say what you believe and why you believe it is not bullying and to voice agreement can only be interpreted as “taking sides” if you are reading through a certain prisim.
Do you want Ian to Lie ?
Or duck out of saying what he really thinks to stay on some kind of side ?
Or do you want to know what his take on these matters are?
It has puzzled me, why NS has not been pushing for our country to control its own borders, to suppress the spread of the virus from elsewhere.
We’ve had the absurd situation of Eurostar importing it from Europe, trains from London spreading it to Scotland, flights from everywhere arriving with passengers untested.
If NS wanted indie, Covid-19 provided the best reason since the Brexit vote (another brilliant reason).
In my mind Nicola is playing a very sound tactical game. The recent surge in polling backs this up.
It really scunners me to see so many so called independence supporters undermining her leadership.
They remind me of a Highland Charge against a nest of machine guns.
Liz g says:
2 September, 2020 at 4:43 pm
Juteman @ 3.57
That’s unfair and uncalled for.
The point of being here is to comment and to say which points you agree or disagree with.
Even the subject of independence falls under the Revs invite here.
To say what you believe and why you believe it is not bullying and to voice agreement can only be interpreted as “taking sides” if you are reading through a certain prisim.
Do you want Ian to Lie ?
Or duck out of saying what he really thinks to stay on some kind of side ?
Or do you want to know what his take on these matters are?
Breeks wrote an essay on what I didn’t say. Straw man after straw man. I actually agreed with most of it, but it had no relevance to my comment about the hostile attitude of the Britnat trolls on here.
@Juteman –
Further to Lizg’s comment at 3.43 (for which, thanks btw) I don’t know how often you visit WGD or perhaps comment there. (I very seldom comment and only started reading it regularly a few weeks ago.)
In any case, my copy/pasting of Breeks’ comment was not intended as any kind of dig at yourself. I felt it was worth copying for the benefit of others, like meself, who had moved onto this thread and may have missed it. And the main reason I felt it was worth copying was because Breeks has a measured way of explaining his take on things.
Let me put it this way…
There is an awful lot of disappointment and disillusion around right now, for all sorts of reasons. People are upset and confused and some of us are not good at handling those things. Others get more upset by name-calling and misrepresentation. And some imagine slights and insults where none exist.
I don’t speak for anyone else but I do have personal ‘red lines’. I cannot and will not abide being described as someone who ‘does the Tories work for them’.
Here’s Paul Kavanagh, from his own blog, at 11.09 last night:
The latest post on WGD doubles down on the circular reasoning he’s been employing lately. (But hey, that’s just my opinion and I have no problem describing it as such.) Paul K has developed his own take on events over many years and is entitled to express them as he sees fit, on his blog, here, in The National, or anywhere else.
What he is most certainly not entitled to do is describe any of us here as Tory-helpers. It’s an unconscionable slur and I, for one, won’t forget it. An apology is in order.
This once in a generation nonsense,
This was an opinion from a politician that it
MAY be a one-off opportunity.
It was never passed as a Bill in parliament,
It’s not legislation or part of our constitution.
It’s absurd to quote this!
The person they quote far more frequently spoke of
Scotland being a Sovereign nation and independence is
in the power of the Scottish nation alone.
Why don’t they use this quote more often when used more often and it is in our constitution?
The Union was supposed to be equal rights for all nations.
No nation to have advantage over the other,
That was never the case but now exacerbated by N Ireland remaining I the
EU Common Market as they requested, while Scotland’s request is refused.
Any company looking to open new business in Scotland or N Ireland will go West to gain
a host of advantages.
We are to be further hamstrung by Westminster!
The Union is broken by their actions and it must be dissolved on Brexit.
@Gullane no4,
I could accept your point if the actual polls were an accepted way to obtain Indepdndence. They’re not sadly.
We need to vote. We need a Section 30, and we need Westminster agreement for that Section 30 before the polls become relevant.
Those are Nicolas choices ,not mine.
@Ian.
Thanks for the clarification. I actually liked most of Breeks’ statement, but it seemed to answer loads of questions i never asked him.
I really do believe that there are some really nasty Britnat posters one here, yet others have been banned just for disagreeing with Stu. I feel this takes away from any message Stu is trying to put across in his articles.
@David Caledonia says:
2 September, 2020 at 1:42 pm
“Lets all post our SNP membership numbers, here is mine
No membership number and I will not comment or read anything you put on here”
What’s this? The SNP Glee Club? This ain’t the party conference.
And since you are being formal about things, asking people to post confidential information in the manner which you are doing can be construed as a breach of GDPR. Good luck with that.
LOL!
I want to believe you’re wrong but I know you’re right and it makes me laugh.
(Well, better than going mad!)
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Still, there will be independence long after I’m dead and rotted away and that’s something to hold on to…
It seems clear to me that Westminster will say no s30 for ever, so the only way to have a referendum is if the Scots people overrule Westminster and show they want it, that is where May 2021 comes in. If the people want it they vote in pro Independence Parties, a de facto people’s s30. By this time next year we will be clear of Westminster if the people want that. If they don’t then we get what we want by voting unionist parties in May or No in a referendum.
Dear David Caledonia…
I think your membership number is fake. (Lol, only kidding!)
But seriously. Even if a membership number is genuine, how the hell would anyone know?
Eh, here’s mine – honest!
Go on – prove me wrong!!
Sturgeon is avoiding a Referendum on Scottish Independence because she knows it’s the end of the line for her.
She will get kicked out of Bute House, she will lose the limousine lifestyle, she and hubby will lose their eyewateringly high salaries.
With the delay of indyRef2, she knows it will prolong her Presidential way of living.
She is a selfish Devolutionist, who has no intention of leading us to Independence.
Hahaha
You know you must be a right dummy when people like Labour’s James Kelly are calling for your resignation.
The english accent won’t help either.
Leonard hasn’t got a lot going for him.
Come to think of it, neither has Scottish Labour.
The need to balance public health needs and economic interests can be viewed as parent of modern politics. We’ve still not cracked it, but a scientific world-view can help break conformity with bad, even dangerous, habits (see British nationalism).
link to citeseerx.ist.psu.edu
I never saw the day coming when I’d be quoting the Mayo Clinic. Looks like I chose the wrong day to give up something. 🙂
link to mayoclinic.org
If Keatings wins his case. Which he might.
Then there would be no need to even request a section 30. The bill could achieve Royal Ascent. Then all Boris could do is try and dismiss the result.
I spoke to an SNP member today, I used to know her from our branch meetings. Our debate about the Glasgow restrictions lasted all of 30 seconds. Nobody is buying it. Meet Granddad in the pub is the message. Scientists like Gordon Leitch on tv just now are losing my confidence. As are the SG this debate has become politicised. Nobody in Scotland has the brains to see through it apparently.
Interesting article from the cebm
link to cebm.net
It looks like Scotland could be massively overcounting the number of people in hospital due to covid. Seems like the incompetence doesn’t end at PHE, it extends up here too. Will nicola admit the mistake? Doubt it.
On the ball again, thank you WoS.
If you think Scotland has issues you need to think of those poor souls across the Atlantic.
How this was voted into office is just mind-boggling .
link to twitter.com
Now think if , James Kelly or Jenny Marra got the lame duck Leonards position and Slab were voted back into Scotgov.
I know, I know but-LOOK!
David Caledonia says on 2 September, 2020 at 1:42 pm: “No membership number and I will not comment or read anything you put on here”
LOL! No, really LOL!
Who do you think you are? I’ll tell you the same as I told the other self-important blawhards ‘Breeks’ and Peter Bell when they’ve taken similar attitudes: ‘Go fuck yourself, you’re not that important to me, I do not need nor seek your approval you obnoxious arrogant c@nt.’
And btw, newsflash, this is a pro-indy site concerned with exposing liars in the media & politics. It has absolutely no connection to the snp, and thank goodness for that.
I was going to say the only connection is they both support Scotland taking back its right of self-determination but recent performances from Sturgeon & Co makes that extremely debatable.
bipod says:
2 September, 2020 at 6:56 pm
Interesting article from the cebm
——–
Seems my last post timing was bang on for you. Dafty.
Bet you’re a rabid tory brexiteer that lives in same parallel universe as Trump.
Tannadice Boy says on 2 September, 2020 at 6:46 pm: “..this debate has become politicised.”
It always has been, and rightly so imo, but don’t worry we have had the clueless tactician Sturgeon telling us all from day one that she’ll not politicise it etc etc.
BANG! One nil to Bozo & Co straight off the bat. Every manager event that concerns a country, any country, *is* political. And there is absolutely *nothing* surer than Westminster will always use & abuse every issue to its own advantage. It always has done, without exception.
Along with her lies, procrastination and misleading this is why I no longer see Sturgeon as the type of leader I can get behind. I want a street fighter savvy in the ways of London. Someone who puts independence first & foremost and who’s not afraid to use every trick in the book to get us there.
Re my previous post.
CLARIFICATION: “manager event”? = major event. (rolls eyes).
I found out about this blog,only after the 2016 referendum-my excuse is that I was living abroad (really abroad, not just Bath) at the time but I did manage to vote YES! However, I have been reading it assiduously ever since as well as sending money to you, Stu Campbell to support your efforts.
This the first time I have submitted a comment to this blog and unfortunately probably the last time as well.
I think you and your current supporters have lost the plot over Sturgeon, the GRA , the Hate Crime Bill etc, etc..The SNP and Nicola Sturgeon are not the real enemy. In your heart you know who our real enemies are and unfortunately judging by some of the comments you print some of them have managed to infiltrate your site and be allowed to express their negative views. You seem to be quick to ban certain people from your site but why not these people?
It is with great sadness that I am giving up reading your blog, not least because I have recommended it to many friends in the past.
I suspect your reaction may well be “F…. off and good riddance” but I cannot be the only Independence supporter who feels this way.
I hope you find your way back to the mainstream soon and I can come back to both reading and supporting your blog.
@stoker
I don’t disagree with you.
Ian Brotherhood @5:05
I occasionally post on WGD ,however any deviation from the accepted group think normally gets a response and the response is almost guaranteed to refer to the one asking awkward questions of being a Unionist , or helping the other side , or not supporting independence ,this in turn gets a response usually bad tempered and full of good language , then follows the customary Warning ,
Result being group think Clique happy and ready to pounce on their next victim job done , Paul’s blog has been taken over and he hasn’t noticed it , well maybe he has and doesn’t care , always wondered why other Indy sites don’t link to his maybe just a oversight , his site used to be entertaining but only so many times you can read mostly Sarcastic Comments about unionist politicians apart from that it’s mostly content free but definitely criticism about the SNP is not considered welcome by the clique agree with them you’re ok if you don’t yer in trouble .
It would be worth looking into the connections of big pharma with the current govt and SNP. Elimination is so totally anthema to these companies and their profit making models that the whole Western world has allowed something easily preventable run rampant. I live in Cambodia. In total we have had something like 230 cases now, still not a single fatality. Cambodia essentially is covid-free now, except for those individuals coming from abroad and who get tested and quarentined and found positive which included two senior American diplomats. Here in Asia elimination was / is always the goal. In most Asian nations the govt is seen as some kind of father figure who must necessarily protect all his children from any type of harm. Herd immunity bullshit has zero traction in Asian societies. Also the people sprang to and bought up every single available mask, hand sanitizer and latex gloves within 48 hours of news of the pandemic. Despite having 6k visitors here on holiday from the Wuhan epicenter, the population sucessfully prevented spread of the disease. I believe the govt in Scotland has sufficient authority to run a covid-free domain as we have achieved here in very wee Cambodia on a shoe-string budget, but big pharma has massive lobbying ongoing and an information campaign spread to convince people in the West that it cannot be eliminated and that it is some kind of Darwinian fact of life. The insidious influence of such moneyed special interests rots any society. The US where I was born and raised is a prime example. It always turns any govt away from respecting the will of its citizens to that of some kind of caretaker msngagement system subverting the interests of the people and cementing whatever status quo is available just to maintain massive profits. I see this happening to Scotland through your posts and the spin of the independence issue is merely one symptom of the rot that has set in. There can be no state of independence in any nation either in name or reality with such influences that divert the govt of the people to a govt over the people. Good luck Scotland on freeing yourselves!
I have waited for some considerable time for somebody to challenge the awful lack of relevant information on Coronavirus in Scotland. I don’t need to know if 20,000 or 30,000 people had the virus in Glasgow. What I need to know is who has it now and where. I consider it a reasonable assertion that Government should give people the information they need to make informed choices.
That old Greater Glasgow and Clyde health board cliche tells me nothing about where in a population almost half the number in Scotland that there are outbreaks. By this point I wuld expect a wee flashing light for every case confirmed and current so we know where they are and when the outbreak occurred.
My council is one of those where the visiting of others in homes is banned but I can of course go outwith the council area and go and visit my mates, or can I? They can’t visit me but they have no restrictions on visitors and we could always meet in the Ferret and Pandemic for a swift half.
Just like independance there seems to be a lack of focus on keeping the public INFORMED and protected. The growing unease about that aspect of the handling of this crisis is something even Janey Godley can’t magic wand away.
There is no prospect of containing/suppressing Convid unless Scotland has control over her borders.
Or, put simplistically, if I have a puncture on my bicycle wheel my continuing to pump up the tyre is wasted energy.
O/T – Craig Murray is running out of cash for his defence due to repeated “court sessions (?)” called by the Crown Office.£60K down the tube so far with 3 sessions @£20K a session.Deliberate?
My question is – if the judiciary are independent of government, by what fair process, and where do the funds arise that enables the Crown Office to prevaricate and so knowingly incur such substantial defence costs?
Note compensation and an apology, is being paid to the auditors of the Glasgow Rangers case.
I never thought I would question the virtue of the Crown Office but. The the £500K paid to Alex Salmond. The Wings vs Dugdale case. the AUOB man given a vindictive 72 hours imprisonment for refusing to change a venue start date? What is the source that fills the Crown Office war chest?
We appear to be in a People’s crowdfunding vs the Crown Office scenario.
Here’s a bit more on “herd-immunity” and public health. Given the Scottish government appear to want to make a legal respect for biology a hate crime, this should be interest to all rationally minded individuals.
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
In the world of public health officials and experts in infectious diseases, ‘elimination’ does not mean the total elimination a lot of people commenting seem to think – it means effective elimination to something like 95% – it means reduce the incidence of the virus to such a great extent that people can go about their business and contact tracers would be able to immediately shut down any incidences quickly. Tuberculosis is effectively eliminated in this country – you are unlikely to catch it, when was the last time you worried about tuberculosis?, but it isn’t actually totally eliminated, there are still cases on the odd occasion.
I wouldn’t be waiting around for a vaccine – this is a cold virus, and we don’t see many vaccines for other colds do we,,, for several reasons. Good if they can do it, but I won’t be holding out for hope of such a thing being effective.
So I was relying on the elimination strategy – now I see they’ve downgraded it, I’m a little bit furious. And no, we dare not criticise the SNP or hold them to account or silly things like that – you know the sort of thing that you’d NORMALLY expect people to do with politicians, in a NORMAL world. No, can’t be criticising the SNP when people are dying – I tried that at the start of the pandemic, criticising them for following Westminster lead and KILLING people – but killing is okay when the SNP do it, apparently. I was evil and mustn’t support independence because I thought I could try and hold the party and politicians of government to account – you know, so that maybe, just maybe, they might IMPROVE their policies and do the right thing, or do something preferable. Are the SNP so very perfect they need no improving even if it’s against our own best interests?? Some seem to think so.
A public health crisis is not independence, the two aren’t related – the first kills people if it is poorly managed, the second still gives you freedom however badly managed. People that refuse any kind of criticism of the SNP are not holding them to account, and more people have died than needed to because there wasn’t quick enough, or informed enough, action at the start. People that now think this sneaky policy change is absolutely grand are putting all our lives at risk. Not criticising someone just because they support independence is mad – stark raving bonkers – when there is a risk to health and wellbeing for all of us.
When did this stark raving insane attitude start – when did people decide any criticism of the SNP would somehow magically translate into no independence? Where is the causality there, and what makes people think they’ll get ANYTHING they want from the SNP when they are bestowed absolute approval for anything and nothing all the time. The world has gone mad. And another thing – just because the SNP is the party of government, does NOT mean that ALL members of the Scottish Government are SNP or pro-Indy. I’ve been utterly shocked at the unthinking support given to some civil servants – the assumption being you need to support everything the Scottish government does because the SNP are in government – well, no, there are a lot of crooked actors there and I certainly won’t be singing their praises if they’ve done something wrong. Like the Lord Advocate for instance,,,
But for now Devi on Twitter, and the Travelling Tabby, say that there is no significant increase in infections in Scotland, and it’s still in control of the contact tracers, so I’m not panicking as yet.
@robbo
Didn’t you predict the other month that 10s of millions of people were about to die in the US, how did that turn out?
Its you and the other hysterical lockdown fanatics that are living in a parallel universe, the one where covid is actually a dangerous virus.
According to travellingtabby.com the accumulated UK deaths to date from Covid 19 total 41,514. We all know this figure has been massaged by a corrupt government and the true figure is much higher. However, accepting this total for the moment, it would be interesting to try to quantify how many of those who died were drawing a state pension at the time of death.
A Guardian article dated June 11 suggested that those aged over 65 accounted for 88 out of every 100 deaths. If we are being generous let us suppose 80 of those were in receipt of a state pension when they died = 80% of Covid related deaths. I do not know what the average state pension currently is but £7,000 p.a. might be a fair guess. Using 40,000 as the figure for Covid deaths (to spare my poor brain), the potential saving on pensions per annum to the exchequer might be around 80% x 40,000 x £8,000 which totals £256,000,000. I know many of those who died had underlying issues and would have had a shortened life span, but no account has been made of the cost to the NHS of caring for many of these people let alone social care, bus passes, mobility vehicles and other benefits. I suspect the overall total could be double or more.
One thing I am sure of is that precise statistical calculations (using the correct figures for deaths) will have been made by the government which will have encouraged them to look upon the elderly as expendable in the current crisis. And we wondered why they originally seemed intent on a herd immunity policy or why they always seem to do too little too late and can’t come up with a viable track and trace system. Has it all been down to sheer incompetence or has it been deliberate? I know what I think – remember we are dealing with Tories here.
It is the long term health effects – still not fully known about, often termed the long-Covid, and with increased risk of other conditions (e.g stroke, a previously rare condition in children) – from Covid-19 that will cause the most disruption long term, and why you don’t want to be going down any herd-immunity route, or have people catching it at all. Effective elimination is the best strategy.
bipod
It’s clear to me you are ideologically opposed to public health ethics and global health law. That leads me to assume you’re a Tory. It’s your party’s antipathy towards public health that has wrecked the economy.
COVID-19 – England’s lockdown vs. Sweden’s herd immunity
Herd Immunity Vs. Lockdown
When faced with the pandemic, Sweden aimed at achieving conferring herd immunity. It was hoped this would indirectly protect the rest of the population by ensuring that the risk of being exposed to the virus was reduced since infection chains cannot propagate among those who are immune to the virus.
Proponents of the herd immunity approach say that it is a preferred strategy since lockdown cannot prevent viral spread but only delays it, at an unnecessary cost both economically and socially.
The lockdown approach is recommended, on the other hand, because it does decrease the effective reproduction number – the average number of people infected by each infected individual. When fewer people are infected in this way, the transmission chain is broken, and there are fewer cases to treat as well.
Despite much media debate about which measures are better, lockdown or herd immunity, and plenty of research using predictive methods or tools to measure the change in the reproduction number, there was a lack of definitive data on the effectiveness of lockdown measures.
The current study is based on a quasi-experimental technique called interrupted time series (ITS) analysis. Here, the outcome of interest is collected at multiple points in time, both before and after a specific intervention. The trend of the outcome over time is thus observed, to find the effect of the intervention. In studies where randomization cannot or should not be done, this is an alternative practice.
link to news-medical.net
@CamB –
There you go again, accusing people of being Tories.
Why don’t you ‘take yourself’ off to WGD – the host seems pretty sanguine about that kind of behaviour.
Our so-called Lockdown for covid wasn’t a real lockdown and that’s why we still have the disease.
If we get a winter second wave, I hope they lockdown proper. No international travel, in or out. Close all shops, including supermarkets, to the public. Have army plus volunteers deliver food parcels to all. No one else allowed out the house for a fortnight. Stuff like that.
We need a short, sharp full lockdown not this ever-lasting half-arsed version.
@CameronB Brodie
Its clear to me that you have set your face against “herd immunity” because you think it is some evil tory policy, rather than the way that the human race deals with most viruses on Earth. You also simultaneously ignore any evidence or expert opinions that you disagree with, often resorting smearing the authors or questioning their motivations. Maybe you should try adopting that rational scientific outlook you like to talk about?
Lastly on covid…..
Those who can’t wear masks should not be allowed to leave their home until there is 100% eradication of the virus.
If you leave your home, you should wear a visor (but without a mask). But when you enter a shop, you put on a mask as well as your visor.
To eat out, wear a visor – we should have ones with a big enough space between guard and face to allow us to eat and drink with it on.
Our current approach is this stupid ‘spend free NHS capacity like a currency’ – whoever dreamt that up should be shot.
Sturgeon would be as well as shrugging her shoulders and walking away, saying “it’s everyone for themselves – if you survive long enough, you’ll get vaccinated”.
Because, basically, that’s what she’s doing…
@ianbhood
wgd doesnt do ESN
I am of the view that the Sturgeon/Murrell duo (because in my mind you can’t separate them) are of the same mind with Covid, as with independence: quite simply, they have no idea what they are doing, no idea how to achieve their ‘ambition,’ and are making it up as they go along. Might not be any more arcane than that, to be honest.
@Gregory Beekman
dont tell em pike !!
@leither (9.24) –
I don’t know what that means.
Do I have to guess?
Ian Brotherhood
Why don’t you stop denying I might have technical insight you lack. Are you trained in law, ethics, and political science? Are you trained in discourse analysis? Who do you think you are to be critical of my political practice?
bipod 09:16
Well aimed.
The world was led to believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Despite on the ground evidence to the contrary a war was waged. The experts were given credence and the results of that need no quantifying in human suffering and social collapse.
The response to this SARS mutation has a similar ring.
Fact and truth the first victim, humanity the expendable second.
bipod
No I’m guided by science and legal ethics, what’s your guide?
Covid-19: Herd immunity is “unethical and unachievable,” say experts after report of 5% seroprevalence in Spain
link to bmj.com
Ottomanbo
You are misrepresenting the corruption of expert advice with warmongering political intent. Why would you do that if you didn’t reject liberal values?
The scottish govt have a dentist in charge of dispensing advice on a pandemic folks. It is a disaster.
The important point for me is that the govt is promising to support people with the virus. With what exactly? While other countries provide medication consisting of generic drugs we provide absolutely nothing to anyone isolating at home. As for devi sridhar – she claims to be studying other countries closely but will never, ever discuss the medications they are providing to keep deaths low.
Don’t believe me though, just wait a year or two when the numbers and use of treatments are added up.
It would have cost scotgov 20 million to provide at home treatment for covid. Really.
A vaccine isn’t as far away as people think either. The Oxford one is at stage three and manufacturing for it is being ramped up already.
….expert advice, and conflating it with….
We need a new independence party,
with a simple manifesto , to pursue an inclusive independent Scotland,
a party that doesn`t kowtow to deranged millenials,flat earthers,Stirling uni and wokists just cause they might have `feelings`.
bipod says:
2 September, 2020 at 8:43 pm
@robbo
Didn’t you predict the other month that 10s of millions of people were about to die in the US, how did that turn out?
Its you and the other hysterical lockdown fanatics that are living in a parallel universe, the one where covid is actually a dangerous virus.
———-
I did no such thing DONALD.Maybe you can go find it with one of your other conspiracy theories ? I may have said without some lock-downs,simple mitigation’s it could.You carry on burying your head in the sand Donald, its a hoax after all and will go away.
So far what i know it’s SIX times more deadly that flu and does more damage to body than flu- FACT. It may only have just begun unless useless nuts like you continue to flout simple basic rules to mitigate. Otherwise it maybe with us for a very reeking god knows how much havoc.
Have you volunteered yet to work in a covid ward anywhere yet?
@CamB –
Calling people ‘Tories’ on no more than a hunch has got nothing whatsoever to do with technical insight, law, ethics, political science, discourse analysis or anything else even vaguely respectable.
It’s an insult.
In Scotland it’s a gross insult.
On a Scottish political website whose whole existence is based on the apparent impossibility of removing these fuckers from making decisions which blight our lives generation after generation? it’s about as close as you can get to putting a target on someone’s back.
You’ve done it repeatedly and even more so since the lockdown started. You did it to me a few months back and I haven’t forgotten and never will. It is disgusting behaviour and you should be ashamed of yourself, not waving imagined credentials around to draw attention away from your rudeness.
You owe bipod an apology.
Just watched Douglas Ross on “The Nine”. If that is the calibre of the “to be” branch manager, what a future we can look forward to.
D. Ross, or dross?
It’s people flouting the Covid restrictions. That will ultimately lead to all of us ending up locked down again.
How hard is it to follow a few simple rules. People act like it’s the end of the world.
Covid is affecting everyone’s lives. There is nothing we can do about that.
Total elimination of any virus is an unhinged fantasy. Where is this absurd advice coming from? Surely not that American woman with ties to the Clinton and the Bill and Melinda Gates foundations surely?
Ian Brotherhood
Just stop an think for a minute. The Tories ignored international health law and the precautionary principle, and turned a manageable public health threat into a national crises. Yet you want me to respect right-wing eejits like bipod? As I’ve said, it’s no wonder the Tories are able to take the piss out of Scotland so easily.
robbo says:
2 September, 2020 at 9:40 pm
bipod says:
2 September, 2020 at 8:43 pm
@robbo
“Have you volunteered yet to work in a covid ward anywhere yet?”
I’ve a better suggestion for bipod. Come to Rutherglen Main Street and walk into the shopping mall saying you think it’s all shite.
See how you get on there…
My first post in a long time.
I’m totally with you Ian.
I stroll past most of Brodie’s outpourings but his personal attacks are too much.
Please stop doing this Brodie. You really are making yourself look very foolish.
I’m sure you have much to offer if you can curb your attempts at putting down others in not very nice rhetoric.
@CamB –
More deflection.
You have no right to label anyone a ‘Tory’ – unless they actually declare themselves as such? the term is a pejorative and you know that full well.
End of.
No excuses.
Paul Kavanagh and some of his acolytes have been blithely bandying around similar language about this place. That’s how the debate is fractured, the discourse degenerates into abuse, gangs form, huddling together while calling the other names.
‘Youse are all fascists!’
‘Well youse are all socialists!’
‘Well youse are all just dirty conspiracy theorists!’
‘Well youse have all swallied the Kool-Aid!’
etc etc ad fuckin nauseum.
It’s playground material, no matter what ‘academic’ veneer you choose to disguise it with.
Please, please, just stop it.
Cameron B Brodie @ 9.53
No Cameron…. just respect his right to say it without abuse.
If that’s what people are thinking how do we address it if they can’t voice it?
It a site rule too
English media headlines going with the Russian opposition leader who was poisoned.
If I was Putin I would say to England, “yes I did Poison that guy, what the fuck are you going to do about it Boris?”.
England are a skint racist country with no armed forces, stuck on the outskirts of Europe.
Putin won’t be losing any sleep over what the detested little englanders say.
Lizg
You just had to stick your fuckin nose into something that had fuck all to do with you.
Playing to the gallery,,,, again.
Sookin that Lanarkshire champagne again.
Elizabeth Stanley, Ian Brotherhood & Lizg
You appear to think I’m simply spouting off and expressing anti-democratic hostility towards others who deserve an ear. Please respect my bio-neurological individuality and choice of “informed” political expression.
Public Health Ethics and Law
link to thehastingscenter.org
Cameron B
I don’t read your posts, but you do attract a certain amount of abuse.
I don’t mind a one to one argument, but don’t like these pile ins.
That is bullying.
I should have respect too for my informed political expression.
Ronald what pile ins?
I made one post in reply to Ian.
No wonder I gave up posting here.
Ronald Fraser
I can cope with that but I’m struggling with the support right-wing populism is getting btl on WOS.
The American Journal of Bioethics, Volume 20, 2020 – Issue 7
Positive Public Health Ethics: Toward Flourishing and Resilient Communities and Individuals
link to tandfonline.com
Ronald Fraser @ 1056
We’re friends Ronald it no more than a conversation we’d have face to face
Cameron we are also guided by science but differ from you as we are guided by moral ethics rather than legal. Every people who ever broke free was breaking their oppressors laws.
@robbo
I don’t need to volunteer for a covid ward considering that they are completely empty the hospitals are quieter than they have ever been in history right now. And at no point during this “crisis” did they ever get close to being overwhelmed. Maybe if we could get nicola in her daily press conferences to talk about the daily statistics everyday day for cancer/heart disease/strokes etc… deaths we could get the NHS back to normal operation quicker…
This also seems like a good point to remind you nicola is very likely also overcounting the already pitiful numbers of covid patients in hospital.
link to cebm.net
I definitely recall you and several others agreeing with the conspiracy theory that millions of people were about to die in america without a lockdown in the southern states, well that just hasn’t happened, sorry to disappoint you. You also predicted that the Swedish health service would collapse, that didn’t happen either. But I don’t blame you for that one, most of the hysterical mob were desperate for sweden to fail, to affirm their belief in the unscientific lockdown.
Covid is not 6 times more deadly than flu, thats ridiculous and was disproven months ago. I see recent studies from Iceland and Spain (following on from the CDC report) put the IFR at 0.3%. That is swine flu range and we didn’t shut the country down for that.
The Yes Movement is definitely divided.
Sturgeon has caused this friction. Scotland’s little Hitler has an insatiable appetite for power.
It will be her downfall.
Thanks for this comment Rev –
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
2 September, 2020 at 12:52 pm
“But, I doubt if that is a priority for Wee Nippy and her cult followers.”
Much as I dislike her, I’m still not standing for “Wee Nippy” here. It stinks coming from Unionists and it stinks coming from us too. Don’t make me delete any more comments.”
Please folks. It is disrespectful to refer to Nicola like that – even if you are majorly pissed off with her. We are better than this.
On another note could Westminster legitimately argue come the 1st January that because the SNP govt did not pursue a referendum before the deadline this means there was a tacit acceptance of Brexit by the SNP therefore they have no grounds for Staging a referendum? I mean what is the SNP going to put in their manifesto? “We will stage a referendum if the support is at 60% or there’s a material change such as leaving the EU against our will.”? Ahem – that ship has sailed.
Robert Cunningham graham is probably spinning so much in his grave that he could power an electricity station.
Ronald Fraser
As Lezg has said, a few of us have met face to face, so we can relate to each other as humans. We might not always agree on matters but we still seek the same goal, I think, i.e. ethical government that listens. So that’s not Westminster.
March for freedom in Edinburgh 5th September 1.00 pm Holyrood. See you all there.
@Big Jock 6:40pm
Indeed, Bills do tend to require Royal Assent, or rather the ‘Crown’s Assent. It’s not a formality, however much one is led to believe; for without it, Government is Republic and neither the UK, England, nor Scotland, yet claims Republic.
‘Whose Crown? is the question – always was and always will be the only question.
The moment the answer is ‘Neither’ then Republic has been declared. The alternative answer is one, or both.
Should the answer be one alone, then Suzereinty has been declared. Should the answer be both – then we enter the great game.
For reasons of these answers, the question remains unasked.
@leither
LOL!!!
If I thought biopd’s point of view could be justified ethically, I wouldn’t have a problem with him trying to undermine support for public health ethics and global health law. I’m assuming bipod is male, as “it” displays an appalling lack of concern for the well-being of others. Especially front line health workers. This is not typical of the female psyche, or any individual with an ounce of moral decency.
COVID-19 Ethics Resources
link to bioethics.pitt.edu
It’s not just me that has a problem with it – it’s the Rev. See above. Plus it makes anyone sound like a unionist.
WGD – paul is decent and a good writer. But personally i got a bit fed up of the same old same old. I drifted away but recently took a neb and saw he is doubling down and being quite catty to anyone who queries anything. Not good. Debate is healthy. And if rumours are correct he, and a lot of others are in for a very big shock.
@Elizabeth Stanley (11.04) –
Thanks for the supportive message earlier this evening and I hope you will come back and comment again.
Sadly, I don’t think anyone would blame you if you didn’t.
🙁
Looks like Kevin Hague’s company: M8 Group is in a spot of bother. Well former company, he resigned as Director and Secretary (possibly removed, noted as Termination of appointment) in July and part of the company that sells garden furniture is in liquidation. Financial statements for the pet food division of the business are a month overdue.
Sad.
Ian Brotherhood
Support those who you like but do yourself and the rest of us a favour, and please acknowledge your own limitations.
Rule of law in the Covid-19 response
link to sydneyhealthlaw.com
On Covid…
Remember, we don’t lockdown for flu (tho maybe that should change).
But we have lockdowned for covid.
What would the hospitalisations and deaths be if we hadn’t taken action?
Also, when a new disease comes a-calling, I hope everyone on here would agree that the prudent thing to do is to take it seriously and do our best to stop its spread.
Eight months on, we now might reconsider our position and start playing “War Generals” by talking about acceptable losses. If it ‘only’ kills under 1% of the population, and if they are mostly the already-vulnerable and elderly, then we might think it’s best to end all restrictions because the restrictions are killing more than 1% of the ‘healthy’ population (as well as causing other problems).
But it’s still a ‘new’ disease. What if we’re wrong about those percentages? It could so easily turn out to kill 5% of the healthy population and lead to long-term side-effects in, say, 30% of those that survive the infection.
We don’t have a crystal ball; we don’t know which way this will go for sure.
I imagine most political leaders will want to play it safe rather than risk going down in history as the idiot that let a disease decimate their country.
Ian Brotherhood
I didn’t mean to intervene in your disagreement with CamB.
I just don’t like bullying, and when you see three or four piling Into one guy, it just doesn’t look right.
Healthy debate is good, and I know you won’t take my Input personally.
I do enjoy your posts Ian, keep up the good work.
Ian Brotherhood
Say what you want to say man, ffs, but please don’t dismiss me as a psychologically unstable and irrational individual. Or even a technocratic fascist. There is trained method to my ‘madness’.
link to aquila.usm.edu
On Sweden…
They had a voluntary lockdown and people’s spending patterns have recently been released, showing most people went into voluntary lockdown. Sweden’s death rates also worse than Norway’s.
Think it was a report in the New Scientist – will try and find it in the morning (off to bed now).
Cameron B Brodie @ 11.13
Here’s the thing Cameron….. Right now right wing mantra is seeping in to the discourse.
It’s pretty much insidious in all the western democracies up to and including here on Wings.
Now they’re plausible swines right enough but crying them fur a Tory ( which is an insult in Scotland and a political persuasion not many will even admit too ) is too simple by far.
Your a Tory, naw you’re a Tory , here’s a Tory ….is pretty much just name calling.
And no way to open anyone up to considering your point of view.
Not forgetting that if some people really do think that the Tory’s or the Right Wing have a bit of a point in some issues…..where better than Scotlands premier political blog to explore if the Tory narrative has any ( pardon the pun ) Wings ?
You debunk in your own style and that’s fair enough but you can’t ask for respect when you disrespect with a slur before even making your own point.
Your a Tory and here’s why yer wrong is indeed a method!
But so is letting them post in peace ,even if they are not genuine , because that’s how we demonstrate to the others the true face of Tory….as … yes,their choice… let them decide if that is indeed how they will use their vote…. the most ethical thing of all has to be informed choice, wouldn’t you agree?
We’re no here tae make friends we’re here to influence people 🙂
There must be some who visit here, and while they know that Tory is and is used as a derogatory term they mibbi don’t really know why…….and not forgetting Cameron, what if you’re wrong?
It’s a horrible thing to say to any Scot who isn’t actually one
At it again Spameron?
Watch out mate, DC seems like a serious contender for site ‘character’.
Membership number! 🙂
Away with you.
Gregory Beekman and CBB
What exactly is the goal of lockdown?
Is it to stop all people dying from this coronavirus?
Is it to stop some people dying of this coronavirus?
Is it to stop most people dying from this coronavirus?
Is it to stop too many people dying at one time leaving the NHS unable to cope.
Is it another reason?
Why do you believe our lockdown was necessary before and necessary now?
Gregory Beekman,
I note you compare Sweden and Norway.
Why not compare UK and Norway?
Or Sweden and Belgium?
They all paint a different picture.
As I said earlier, it’s been a half-arsed lockdown.
It should have been to stop most people from catching this disease and to 100% remove it from the country but, unfortunately, it’s been done to slow the rate of the spread to a level that the NHS can cope with while we await a hoped-for vaccine.
A bit bonkers, if you ask me.
My preference would have been for a more ‘brutal’ lockdown lasting one month (no international travel, close supermarkets, everyone stay indoors etc) and we could have eradicated it. But the politicians have chosen a ‘let it drag on for years’ approach. Which sucks.
CBB,
I see Gregory is off to bed so you could maybe give me your thoughts on my questions.
Lizg
I take your point though I still value my judgement and abilities. It’s a long time since I was trained to resist the radical right, but I suppose it’s hard to forget stuff that can improve your capacity to maintain your biological integrity, a.k.a. your heath. 😉
Cognitive, Affective, & Behavioral Neuroscience volume 16, pages848–865(2016)
Basic psychological needs and neurophysiological responsiveness to decisional conflict: an event-related potential study of integrative self processes
link to link.springer.com
Gregory,
I’m trying to get to the point of your strategy, so bear with me. Why do we need to eradicate it?
Sweden is compared with Norway because they are similar Nordic countries, similar climates, similar people etc so that the comparison reveals differences between their covid approaches and not anything else.
You could compare Sweden with South Korea but there are so many differences between those two countries that you couldn’t really say the difference was due to their covid approach.
How different is Sweden from the UK or Belgium in terms of culture, genetics, diet, weather etc? I’m not sure but I’d guess the difference is greater than with Norway. So ‘similar’ countries are compared in the hope that any differences can be assumed to be because of differences in approach to covid. It’s not perfect but the best we can do.
Breastplate
As you suggest, they all paint a different picture that reflects the cultural psychology and the economic/social fabric of each nation.
Sociology of Development (2019) 5 (1): 9–30.
The Sociology of Global Health: A Literature Review
link to online.ucpress.edu
@Breastplate says:
3 September, 2020 at 12:30 am
Gregory Beekman,
“I note you compare Sweden and Norway.
Why not compare UK and Norway?
Or Sweden and Belgium?
They all paint a different picture.”
Population density is a major factor in the spread. That’s why China had a strong lockdown. Scandinavian countries have a lower density that the UK.
Think of how many people there are living in Glasgow, London, Birmingham, Manchester… plus all the workers that commute in.
@Breastplate
We want to eradicate it so it’s not a problem we have to deal with anymore.
As I said before, it may turn out that the virus is not as bad as we had first feared but when faced with a new disease that is killing people, I think it prudent to fear it and try and stop it spreading.
Gregory,
Your comparison of Norway and Sweden only compared deaths, I’m trying to find out if this is the only measurement that you recognise or if there are other things in society that you value.
Beaker,
Perhaps you can answer my question.
Is the only measurement of how bad this coronavirus is for society the death toll?
Is there anything else you would give value to or not?
“You can’t get rid of the virus when you have hundreds of thousands of people arriving in the country who aren’t tested or traced upon entry.”
No, of course not. You have to do it properly, New Zealand-style. Close the borders. Britain is an island, we have a massive advantage there. Anyone you absolutely have to let in, quarantine the fuck out of them.
A couple of wee questions.
Do you think Devolution has been good for Scotland?
Has it made Scotland stronger as an industrial nation?
Has it made Scotland a more prosperous nation?
Has it improved our education system?
Have we got more high paying jobs opportunities?
Has society got better?
Do you feel better personally?
Is life better in a Devolved Scotland?
Have you got more personal wealth?
After Over a decade of an SNP adminstration, do you think Scotland has moved forward?
Would you rather live in a 1970s Scotland, than a 2020s Scotland?
Is Nicola Sturgeon the right person to lead us to Independence?
Answer honestly please.
I didn’t write the report comparing Norway and Sweden, just read a New Scientist article on it and just mentioned it in a comment. If you want to list all the things you value, go ahead – but what point are you trying to make?
Anyway, here’s the article – I got a bit wrong: Sweden’s spending patterns were compared with Denmark’s (not Norway’s).
link to newscientist.com
Breastplate – here is what I posted earlier that might answer those questions.
Gregory,
I know what I value in society, I was asking you Beaker and CBB but I’ve not had an answer.
I don’t understand the evasiveness. It’s not a trap, I’m simply asking what you guys have based your decisions about lockdown on.
I think I’ve been pretty clear.
Anyway, good night.
Gregory,
What you’ve said makes sense and as I’ve pointed out to CBB on numerous occasions, there are pros and cons.
And yes, I agree with your last paragraph that it is and has always had a political factor.
Cameron B Brodie @ 12.32
As well ye should Cameron and I’m glad you saw I was making a point and not point scoring 🙂
Rev Stu @ 12.49
Truth be told …With the amount of forewarning we had , it never needed to get on this island significantly in the bloody first place
defo
I hope we never meet as I don’t think your ego could take it.
link to scholar.harvard.edu
Lizg
We don’t know each other particularly well, but we are both humans who acknowledge each other as deserving a certain amount of respect and tolerance. I’m pretty sure of that. Others who post on here can’t make the same claim. I’m pretty sure of that, as well. 😉
link to journals.sagepub.com
Cameron B Brodie @ 1.29
Of course, and also well enough not to buy what those who would manipulate our conversation into something it’s not are selling 🙂
@Breastplate says:
3 September, 2020 at 12:48 am
“Beaker,
Perhaps you can answer my question.
Is the only measurement of how bad this coronavirus is for society the death toll?
Is there anything else you would give value to or not?”
Some of us have other things to do if you’re wondering why I didn’t answer earlier.
As pointed out above, when there is a new virus, then you plan for the worst case scenario. There are a number of contingency plans that are available to the government depending on the circumstances.
The balance comes between how many deaths from COVID and how many lockdown-related deaths. Very difficult to predict. There are too many factors to consider.
My view is lockdown was essential because we didn’t know how COVID would turn out. But it should have been in place right at the start in January. As Stu pointed out, we’re an island so we should have used that advantage from Day 1. But no, we allowed air travellers in, football match to go ahead and a Nike conference. The advantage was lost and can never be recovered. Now we have politicians fighting between themselves again and again.
I’m a key worker, so although working from home I can still be asked to travel into work. But I will definitely be in the same situation until April next year at the earliest.
Do not dare to imply that I am uncaring of those impacted by the lockdown. I have close relatives and friends directly impacted by it.
But to ask you a question: how would you have handled the situation?
Breastplate
You accuse me of evasiveness but I thought I’ve been pretty clear. A respect for public health ethics is the glue that enables a cohesive and just society. Lock-down is compatible with public health ethics, given the circumstances. A free-for-all that strives for herd-immunity, not so much.
Civil society and health: Contributions and potential [Internet].
Chapter 2
What civil society does in and for health: a framework
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The relaxation of lock-down has to be supported by adequate test and trace infrastructure and isolation procedures, as well as an unrealistic level of public compliance IMHO, or else we are just inviting unknown consequences that may be disastrous.
link to tandfonline.com
I must admit Polly that I’ve never bought into the NS cult so was not much taken by her approach. Power has gone to her head, there’s nothing consensual about her policies now. They’re downright authoritarian social engineering.
6 months in and most people cant even tell you the proper name of the virus, never mind the difference between the virus and the disease.
link to timesofisrael.com
100 idiots.
So a scientist talking outside of his field advises
Covid won’t kill millions, well except the elderly
and infirm?
We are approaching the first million, we are now seeing
For the first time, countries with over 80,000 new cases in
Just 24 hours.
You may have noticed too that young people and those considered healthy
Have also died in their many thousands.
I am older and I was never a fan of Russian Roulette
so I’ll chose to ignore you and your scientist and take precautions.
The first rule of totalitarianism is to fill the punters with fear of something ‘unknown’ or alien.
It works every time, Jews, Communists, Catholics, Muslims, bugs. It has worked so well it has effectively shafted every democratic state on the planet.
The masses are paranoid. Cowering behind their unhygienic masks, heads full of half baked science, unregulated data sources and media generated scenarios. In such a condition the masses will conform. Risk of non conformity…yer all gonna die, so stick with ‘the science’ and ‘stay safe’ and ‘save the NHS’.
All total ballox but start a rumour and voilà it soon gains the dynamic of ‘truth’.
If only Hitler and Stalin had had social media…
Oops, their spawn has….now that’s something to be really scared of.
Have a nice day.
What effigy said with bells on. Too much BS from Trump and USA.
Sorry BS = Bull Shit.
USA = United States of America.
Just in case those operating from Menwith Hill do not know,well they do know the latter of course!
ahundredthidiot
That article is from March…
‘Dogbiscuit says:
2 September, 2020 at 11:15 pm
March for freedom in Edinburgh 5th September 1.00 pm Holyrood. See you all there. September 1.00 pm Holyrood’
Is this for real? Any evidence? Thanks.
Donald Trumps wild statements
1. It’s not been easy for me as I had to borrow $1m dollars from my father to get started.
2.Senator John McCain is not a war hero. He was a war hero because he got caught.I like people who don’t get captured.
3.Mexicans are coming to USA are not the best Mexicans they are people with lots of problems like drugs crime and they are rapists and maybe one is a good person.
4. You are living in poverty your schools are useless you have no jobs your youths cannot find work. What the hell have you got to lose ?At a rally 2016 explains why African Americans should vote for him
5.Bill Clinton committed rape as well as other sexual offences.
6. I was down there watching our fire fighters and police at World Trade Centre when it happened on 7-eleven.
Leader of the world’s strongest nation?
Ottomanboi
What’s the first rule of dealing with a new disease?…
By the way. I apologise for my outburst the other night. Was tired from a long shift and feeling a bit emotional, as many are right now. The deaths of the elderly, vulnerable, and disabled, with whom I have worked, has taken a long-term toll on my thinking on political subjects. Can’t imagine the pain of having a loved one basically starved to death because they’re expendable, as scum like Cummings and Tony Abbott think. So sorry again.
Could I just say that in the discussion on lie detectors that Justice,Scots Law etc are not “devolved” .
They are at the heart of the Treaty of Union and any breach thereof must found the ending of the Treaty in International Law.
Much easier than even considering whether S30 is a real thing in law.
Independence is normal, Boris is not.
Can’t wait the Trump above controls our only trading partner.
As he has stated it’s America First.
Goodbye NHS and Hello Chlorinated Chicken, Steroid Beef and
Zero Hours contracts.
Let’s wait a few years before Scotland finds a need to fight back?
WRYC 9.24pm
I quite agree but I would also add that Sturgeon has no intention of securing independence on her watch as she knows she is not capable of dealing with the logistics of the seperation.
Ottomantio
Bull.
Those statements above really do require moderation
As they are all quotes from Boris’ pal Donald Trump.
I did miss out the one where he gave his support to
The right wing extremist who decided to shot demonstrators
at a Black Lives Matter March.
Why has Richard Leonard not invited nicola to join with him in congratulating Mr salmond on proving his innocence.
Looks like an open goal to me
Why do I feel like the guy holding a hand of 19 at pontoon (blackjack) and my “friends” are shouting “Twist”.
Tory peer Lord Finklestein has conceded that they’ll probably be a second Scottish independence referendum. However Finklestein wants folk living elsewhere in the UK but born in Scotland to have a vote as well. A plan pushed by Gove and Galloway.
Meanwhile if there’s a referendum on independence and I sincerely hope there is one, 63% of Scots think Yes will win it.
link to thenational.scot
Beaker,
We have known for quite some time that it is the older demographic and people with underlying health problems and that are most at risk. It is these people that need to self isolate as I have said on here months ago.
It seems quite logical that the people least at risk, the under 50s for example, should be allowed to go about their business. (I’m over 50).
Again, as I’ve said before many times, nobody in a high risk category will contract the virus if they are self isolating.
It is the younger demographic that will pay for our poor decisions, financially, mentally, socially and psychologically.
My belief is that these factors are not weighed up properly in the rush to sensationalise and politicise SARS CoV2.
Again the WHO register the mortality rate of this coronavirus at 0.6%, this considers all demographics. The WHO also registers the mortality rate of the flu at 0.1%.
The risk factor of under 50s from SARS CoV2 Is well below the flu mortality rate, perhaps as Gregory Beekman says we should entertain a lockdown to stop the spread of flu.
If the death toll is your only measurement of how something impacts society, then I would suggest that there is more emotion than logic in your equation.
We can’t change one side of an equation without affecting the other side.
CBB,
We’ve gone over this a few times before. Your argument has a limited shelf life.
SARS Coronavirus 2 – thats it’s name.
COVID19 – that’s the disease.
You might want to wonder why not a lot of people know that.
I feel like I am in the audience in movie Team America (scene for the Aids Show) watching all the idiots singing……everyone has aids, everyone has aids, everyone has aids, aids, aids, aids, aids aids aids aids aids…….AIDS!
WOW! So today is the day Wings goes all-in on the conspiracy theories. The Scottish Government are deliberately enabling a virus to infect the population in order to avoid organising an independence referendum.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight…
No wonder your readership is so high. I wonder what percentage of visitors are ghouls like me, checking in to see exactly how deranged you’ve become.
Ronald Fraser says:
3 September, 2020 at 12:51 am
A couple of wee questions.
Do you think Devolution has been good for Scotland?
No, but it creates the illusion that it has. Devolution is the poor man’s Independence. Without devolution, Scotland would have suffered more abuse and gone for full Independence by now.
Has it made Scotland stronger as an industrial nation?
No. I would hardly describe Scotland as an Industrial nation, but look across to Norway and it’s vibrant ship building industry, support vessel for it’s oil fields, fishermen, island ferries, and cruise liners. That’s where Scotland would have been if Independent, not wasting 20 years plittering about trying to make a devolved assembly work better while Westminster plundered our resources.
Has it made Scotland a more prosperous nation?
Can’t answer that question for laughing/ crying/ laughing/ crying…. No.
Has it improved our education system?
Possibly. It ‘seems’ more Scottish History is being taught in Scottish Schools, which is probably down to Devolution, but the big + I’d give in answer to that question is YES, because Devolution has allowed Scotland to maintain free Education for all. That situation wouldn’t exist without Devolution. Same can be said for our NHS… at least for now.
Have we got more high paying jobs opportunities?
No. For as long as we remain chained to this decrepit Union, Scotland suffers the nepotism and cronyism of Directorships and “Top Jobs” going to people sympathetic to the Union and entrenching Unionist values which are not indigenous to Scotland. It’s low grade colonialism in action.
Has society got better?
No, I don’t think it has. Devolution has been a distraction to keep Scotland pacified while our societies values are still dictated by BritNats. Scotland might be angry about the treatment of Palestinians, but in large part still watches the BBC for it’s news. Westminster’s Russophobia has also resonated with Scotland’s MSP’s, which I consider unhealthy. Scotland should have its own foreign policy based on first principles, not dictated by Westminster. I would prefer that Scottish Society was not drip fed poison every news bulletin, yet Devolution has done nothing to arrest this.
Do you feel better personally?
I did, back in 2014-15. Progress since, under Nicola Sturgeon has been a long trudge back into despondency and disillusionment. Does that count as Devolution related?
Is life better in a Devolved Scotland?
Honest truth, I don’t know. With food banks everywhere, it seems life is not better for a large number of people, but in real terms, I think life is easier. There has been progress in real terms, but I think the distance has increased between where Scotland is and where Scotland should be. So that’s real term progress yes, but relative progress, no. I also believe our Institutions like our Local Authorities are more corrupt and nastier now. They’ve gotten away with it too long and now it’s endemic.
And just to speak up for Scotland’s persecuted wildlife, I don’t think they’ve seen any material difference these past 40 years. Maybe a little respite for otters, badgers and buzzards, but there aren’t many raptors dying of old age.
Have you got more personal wealth?
Me personally, no. I was doing OK, just about ‘getting there’, but the 2008 Credit Crunch hit me very hard, and while that was survivable, the savagery and greed of the rancid pack of wolves which set upon me and tried to tear my business apart and exploit my misfortune was quite an eye popping education. Scotland is a nasty and vindictive barren wilderness if you ever find yourself isolated and needing help.
After Over a decade of an SNP adminstration, do you think Scotland has moved forward?
Up to 2014 yes. Beyond, No. We are now in reverse. Abandoning our Sovereign Constitution is going to cause us untold misery. It’s the understated disgrace of our time.
Would you rather live in a 1970s Scotland, than a 2020s Scotland?
If I knew in 1970 what I knew in 2020, then travelling back to 1970 with the warnings I could deliver would be like my own Outlander series… But in reality, the generation of the 1970’s were fighting the fight of their time. That was their time, not mine. 2020 is where I belong.
I’d really miss the Internet too. Arguably, it is the Internet and Social media which is making the decisive difference in Scottish Independence beginning to resonate with the people. Until social media, the BritNat propaganda went unchallenged, and I don’t think there was any way to compete with that in the 1970’s.
Is Nicola Sturgeon the right person to lead us to Independence?
No. Her stewardship of Scottish Independence has been catastrophic. It’s not a personality thing, it’s not identity politics, it is simply her lamentable decisions and transparent strategy blunders across a very wide spectrum.
Perhaps it’s my own weakness, but I am genuinely perplexed that people see her as a great leader. Theresa May was the laughing stock of Europe, a pitiful figure delivering speeches to the waiters clearing tables after a dinner, and yet when I came to Scotland’s Brexit and unconstitutional subjugation, Nicola Sturgeon made Theresa May look decisive and assertive.
And as for those who cite Nicola as the reason support for Independence in now steady in the mid fifties… that seems utterly delusional. It is Brexit, it is Boris, it is the BBC. The SNP are sitting mute in the passenger seat yet claiming the credit???.
Answer honestly please.
It is my honestly held belief, (and that’s without knowing any inside details of this extremely troubling Alex Salmond Conspiracy), that Scottish Independence is dead in the water until there is change at the top. You’d have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to miss the frustration and growing anger amongst the foot soldiers, yet nothing happens. Head remains firmly in the sand. Frankly, I think it is the same inept ability to think strategically which is allowing this frustration to boil and fester into something properly dangerous to our cause.
We need change. It is my sincere hope that Nicola Sturgeon would see that herself, and without even stepping down necessarily, she could simply appoint Joanna Cherry as a Scottish Independence “Tzar” with a formal green light instruction to go for the jugular, no holds barred, and bring down the Union via the Legal/Constitutional route…Aye, like that’s going to happen…
Former Tory minister Andrew Mitchell, speaking on Newsnight (Tuesday) has admitted that Brexit has created a real problem for unionists, making the case for the union more difficult, and the case for independence seem more attractive.
Mitchell added that it will be difficult to resist the calls for a second independence referendum if the SNP do well next year.
Mitchell’s comments can be found at the bottom of this link.
link to thenational.scot
Wannabe economist and dog food sales man, blocks journalist on Twitter when he can’t answer a simple question on GERS.
are we surprised, I think not.
link to thenational.scot
RoS,
I think many of the Unionists are comfortable talking about the possibility of another Indyref some time in the future as long as it remains in the future. They will kick the can down the road as long as they can get away with it.
@Alf,
There is a world of difference using a virus to affect people
and using a virus to conveniently delay doing other things. Or is that beyond your grasp?
Apparently death rates from Covid are much lower for a number of reasons.
We are testing more people, so more cases being detected without sickness or symptoms. Before it tended to be the already sick that were counted. So mortality rate is higher.
The infections are happening to younger people in the population. So the vulnerable and elderly are not being exposed as before.
We are better at managing the infected and the sick. Our hospitals have better knowledge of what works and what doesn’t.
The Virus may indeed be a weaker strain.
However the fear is that as more younger people become infected. Their transmission to older people causes another spike and the resultant deaths to the older generation.
There have been some people suggesting it’s over and the virus is in decline , now it’s purely political. This is just nonsense.
We are not out of this by a long shot.
If I may take the liberty of summarising Breeks’ answers as “Could do better; want to do better and do better for others too” then a good way forward would be to get Yes Movement moving again and take the whole independence debate away from the SNP and the petty infighting and move it back to an aspirational and inspirational footing.
With covid, brexit, cronyism, budding authoritarianism, incompetence, etc. there’s a long list of how things can be a lot better in an independent Scotland with more control, more transparency and more accountability.
Instead of sitting around waiting for some Messiah figure to, like Moses, deliver us from the chains of bondage (hoping skipping the 40 years in the desert part, but, who knows) the whole idea of independence and all the constitutional backdrop should be owned and driven by the populace and not something delivered by politicians, who in a moment of beneficence, decide to grant us our wishes.
Waiting on handouts from Holyrood or Westminster is the path to permanent penury.
Big Jock,
I agree with you on many things in your comment and SARS CoV2 may be around for a long time, it may be here to stay.
Decisions about the virus are not purely political and I don’t believe anyone is saying that but it is definitely a factor, how much of a factor it is, we may never know but it will vary from country to country.
“I think many of the Unionists are comfortable talking about the possibility of another Indyref some time in the future as long as it remains in the future. ”
Breastplate
At least they’re talking about it, a step in the right direction I think.
Agreed RoS
Jeane Freeman is calling for an end to the in-fighting in the Yes movement. If the in-fighting was being caused by personality clashes or simple left/right ideological disputes then a call for unity in order to reach the common goal would be entirely valid.
But what good is unity if your leader is not motivated to make an attempt to reach the goal?
@Breastplate
At the start of Lockdown, I suggested that we deliberately infect ‘the young’ (perhaps those aged 18-24) so that we have an immune workforce that can do all the necessary jobs (under supervision, even if it’s by video call) if things get worse for those ‘older’.
Scot Goes Pop pointed out that that was unethical and that even young people die from this disease.
But I think we might be getting to that point. I imagine society becoming a bit like in Logan’s Run – those under 30 are immune and life is normal for them but everyone else is under restrictions of some form or another.
How ethical is it to deliberately infect ‘the young’?
It could be done under medical supervision eg batches of young kept in those nightingale hospitals, with oxygen and steroids etc on standby. They would be pre-screened so only the healthy young would be infected, thus probably limiting fatalities to zero.
Then schools, nightclubs etc could all be reopened. It’d be a youth utopia!
Just a shame I’d be in the ‘older’ dystopia section 🙁
colon left bracket is shown as a square
not as a sad face
damn…
O/T Craig Murray’s contempt case funding: his blog gives bank account details for direct payment so I have sent another small amount. It looks as if the establishment and its lawyers are trying to make his defence impossible – every time they alter an argument there is a new hearing and that costs £20,000.
Breeks 10.07am
Absolutely fascinating answers Breeks.
Thanks for your honesty.
Your 1970s answer was particularly interesting, I would say there was more meaningful employment about, but as you say there was no internet in those days, so we were at the mercy of the English Unionist Media to guide our thoughts.
And I started my working life just when Thatcher became Prime Minister, so I’ve had a bit of a raw deal when it comes to my choice of political leaders.
Kapelmeister @ 10:49
“Jeane Freeman is calling for an end to the in-fighting in the Yes movement”
Is that a thinly disguised attempt to say stop criticising the Dear Leader?
Breeks @ 10:07
Christ I thought I was reading a comment I had posted,
Well done my thoughts exactly but will a far better delivery
Now for the Acid Test
Post your thoughts on WGD then stand back and watch his keep the heed and be polite plea fly out the window , again made my day saved me a lot of typing.
Gregory Beekman says:
3 September, 2020 at 10:53 am
@Breastplate
Seriously, can’t quite get my head round that one.
They did that in military in 70-80’s, even b4 then, with volunteers to test chemical agents at Porton Down. Didn’t end well.
I did not volunteer -because i wasn’t fucking dumb !
Breeks 10.07am
Great answers and great read, thanks for that!
Jeane Freeman would be wise to recognise that the in fighting stems from the ructions within the snp. A divided party is also a symptom of poor leadership. Breaks had the answer earlier.
What do they expect the yes activists to do? Not notice the persecution of Joanna cherry? The fit up of Alex Salmond? The shilly shallying over a referendum? The GRA and hate crime Bill? The promotion of the in-crowd wokes who don’t seem to give a chuff about independence?
Well we do. Plus we have got eyes and ears. And a brain. Possibly because we have read 1984 – which they need to read or at least reacquaint themselves with. And while they’re at it Animal Farm should be on Nicola’s reading list too.
@robbo
It was based on the notion that the young don’t get ill from Covid19.
Government wanted retired NHS staff to volunteer and they must have known that was precisely the wrong thing to do, given it was the elderly most at risk. To me, they basically deliberately infected the elderly – a stupid, stupid thing to do.
So I think infecting the young is the far, far better solution!
Gregory Beekman,
That certainly is a different perspective and as James Kelly from SGP points out, other factors need to be taken into consideration including the ethical factor.
I should also credit CBB with consideration of the ethical factor too.
Aye Gregory, but only the rugrats that keep killing me in PvP in Destiny 2. 🙂
Comment @ 10:53
Not exactly clear which one of you made the comment about infecting the young , as both names referred to however ,
THE maddest bordering on the criminally insane comment I have ever seen on Wings without a doubt whoever thought and actually posted it needs immediate Psychiatric assistance , Christ on a bike to think whoever typed that piece could be standing next to any of us today ,FFS honestly
@ Stuart MacKay
‘a good way forward would be to get Yes Movement moving again and take the whole independence debate away from the SNP and the petty infighting and move it back to an aspirational and inspirational footing.’
Excellent idea but how do we do that Stuart? Especially when there’s doubt by many in the present leadership and whatever we attempt, whatever we come up with, so much ultimately does depend on them. And there’s the obvious infighting even amongst SNP parliamentarian themselves as well us normal Indy folk and people are so demoralised at present and worried for the future.
I agreed with Daisy Walker the other day too, to focus on what we can agree on, work together on that, while leaving others to do their own thing without undue criticism. That seems more achievable to me. But how to inspire and motivate? And what concrete steps towards that?
On the once-in-a-generation ‘pledge’ the SNP gave in 2014, I’ve begun replying to the Tories on Twitter with this:
Should we start a Twitter storm asking them about U-turns?
Might be fun to see them explode, lol!
Any thoughts on a suitable hash tag?
My reply to Murdo Fraser link to twitter.com
Infecting the young is not as crazy as you think and here’s why…
The young are basically infecting themselves anyway because they assume they are immune (hence crowded pubs, illegal raves and house parties).
If the scientific consensus is that schools can reopen because SARS-CoV-2 produces a mild respiratory illness in the young, then what is the difference between sending kids to school knowing that a percentage of them will be infected and deliberately infecting all of them?
I see no ethical difference.
What is Jean Freeman actually saying? What she is saying is that there are not just a few of us who can be ignored any longer. There are clearly those who are finding the situation causing the SNP a degree of discomfort. Rightly so.
The pressure must be building when they publicly acknowledge this
Robert Graham says:
3 September, 2020 at 11:20 am
Comment @ 10:53
I concur Robert .Agreed.
It was Gregory, wisnae me.
Breeks your response to those questions need a million thumbs up!
What baffles me most is that Scotland is about to Brexit with the rest of the UK (minus NI) and there is not even a whimper from the SNP / SG to protect Scotland.
And what perplexes me even more, is that there is no storm of demands from the SNP membership for the SNP to honour their 2016 manifesto pledge in this parliamentary term. Have they all succumbed to ‘wheesht for indy’?
It reminds me of a survey poll Stu did some time ago that showed that keeping SNP in power was more important to SNP voters than independence (or a question along those lines).
I don’t know what the answer is but this dangling of the carrot tactic played yet again by the SNP is taking the piss out of voters.
They act like they have all the time in the world when really Scotland is approx 16 weeks away from the hand cuffs and shackles being tightened to national slave status!
Congrats Gregory .I think everyone is in shock and have went for a wee lie-down.
Had a quick look this morning over on WGD site. Main thrust seems to be:
The voters are not ready for an Indy Ref, they are not ready for UDI, and they are not ready for a proxy vote for Indy through a GE or HE.
Oh and any vote for Indy other than a vote for SNP will be twisted by the media into ‘there’s no desire for Indy’. So you mustn’t go there.
I am deeply saddened that one of the finest voices for Indy has followed the ‘triangulation policy’ line hook line and sinker.
I always felt he was wiser than that. A fool puts all their eggs in one basket, particularly when up against an enemy such as the British Estate.
That coupled with the following
Republicofscotland says:
3 September, 2020 at 10:10 am
‘Former Tory minister Andrew Mitchell, speaking on Newsnight (Tuesday) has admitted that Brexit has created a real problem for unionists, making the case for the union more difficult, and the case for independence seem more attractive.
Mitchell added that it will be difficult to resist the calls for a second independence referendum if the SNP do well next year.’
Call me a cynic, but when a tory starts getting all reasonable and human, it is either because they’ve been thrown out of office for ever – think Portillo and Anna Soubry – or because they are pushing an agenda.
I grew up during Thatcher, then as now – I see no reason, and no current Scottish Political pressure or leverage – to ‘force’ the current tory government to gift Scotland S30 permission for another Ref. They simply don’t care, and that show of ‘strength’ against the sweaties plays very nicely with their English core vote.
I take umbrage at the assumption that the Scottish voter is so dumb that they ‘mustn’t be frightened’ and given the opportunity to vote for the opposite of what is being forced upon them.
The ‘lesson’ of 2017 with the SNP has most assuredly not been learnt.
But here’s the thing – if voters are ‘not ready’ then it is up to us/the movement – with or without the OK from the SNP – to get them ready.
The moral pressure the SNP state will ‘force’ Boris to grant a S30, is equally valid on them to deliver in the face of rising support for Indy in the polls.
The need to get opinion polls up to and over 60% for YES has never been more urgent, and can only be done by us, in a Covid appropriate way.
And no-one, from ANY faction of the YES movement, can take offence at this course of action.
In 3 months time we lose our EU membership and with it our NHS, food standards, Farms, Fishing industry, Human rights, workers rights… and, and, and, oh and our Parliament neutered.
So no urgency then.
In 8 months time we have a Holyrood Election – and they cannot stop that, not a good look.
But if they prevent you having an alternative course of action to vote for in that election, then its just as effective.
It takes a minimum (from memory) of 6 months to arrange a Referendum once permission is granted.
Say for arguments sake, the SNP sweep to power in May 2021, by that time the power grab will be a done deal, by that time we will be 5 months out of Europe, the job losses will not be all at once, but once those dominos start to go, who will get the blame by the media – Boris, or Nicola. How is that going to convince anyone of our former No voters to vote for Indy.
And if, currently, you are looking down the gun of a no deal Brexit, and its your family farm at stake, your job at stake, your health at stake – and lets be clear here, those threats concentrate the mind beautifully – regardless of your political creed – why on earth would you consider voting for the SNP when their current offering – at the worst threat to the welfare of Britain since WW2 – is to go meh, sometime soon, maybe, if we ask nicely.
You do not need permission to campaign. And we can do so much better than Boris.
You do not need the SNP to campaign. Believe in Scotland
You do not need a Referendum date to start. Believe in You.
Lets get the polls over 60% before Brexit. It needs doing and we were always the ones who were going to have to do it.
@Ronald Fraser 12:51am
Much of the list is subjective and perhaps relative. Whether socio-economic, or even just with age. Certainly I felt ‘better’ when I was younger – adulthood and life hadn’t yet kicked the shite out me, as it does with us all.
Similarly with personal economics/finances; I had more opportunities for jobs and putting money on my hip perhaps in the past, but it didn’t buy me much. What was available was limited, so I was only relatively better off and possibly easier to content. Perhaps ‘contentment’ might be a slightly better measure than ‘hapoiness’ though still difficult to pin down.
Anyway, to answer the ultimate question; the ’70’s can die in a ditch and I would never, ever wish the 70’s on Scotland ever again. The deprivation, sickness, poverty crime and oppression had to be lived through, or no-one would believe you – the decades preceeding it were even worse.
Scotland may have been a greater ‘industrial giant’ back then, but Scotland never saw that benefit. It did see death and disease from it certainly; as ever, such ‘industrial strength’ was driven by little more than slaves yoked to the machine, to be tossed on a midden at the first hint of infirmity.
Certainly, there was a percentage of a generation, who bought homes and cars and did not too bad out of that decade; the rest was deprivation; but that deorivation was always next door to them and perhaps a driver of Scotland’s more ‘socialist’ outlook.
Today is stratospheric orders of magnitude better living today than the ’70 and contentment is what you make of it. Is it because of Devolution? Not entirely, the rising global tide lifted Scotland’s ship with everyone else – but only relative to what Scotland was – not relative to her neighbours across the water.
Scotland’s fortunes were historically and inexorably tied to ‘Britain’ and Britain in general was ruined. Ask those who did National Service in the ’50s and they will tell you disembarking and travelling through Europe by train was like entering a different world, a future world.
By the time the *ahem South of Britain dragged itself to it’s feet to catch up over a couple of decades, it did so on the back of Scotland’s industry, people and wealth (yes the oil too) Britain had a lot of catching up to do and it didn’t hang about to consider the welfare, government, or distribution of wealth in Scotland.
Scotland was to be mined to the bones, and mere overseers administered it. Had Scotland achieved Independence in the ’70s, I have little doubt it would have become an incredibly wealthy, contemperous European nation – but she didn’t and hasn’t.
Another two decades from then and Devolution has wrought huge changes for the better in a short time – even if considered a mere shield wall – Devolution has been good for Scotland, but only in the context of ‘here’s what you could have won.
A decade since it’s inception and we still sit in our midden and think ‘this is fine’ – possibly because many do remember the ’70’s – anything would be finer.
@Gregory Beekman
Young people do die of this virus, but it is extremely rare. In-fact deaths covid deaths of under 50s are extremely rare. A child under the age of 5 is far more likely to die of the flu than covid. By your logic I suppose we can consider flu deaths of children to be unethical and maybe we should shut down the country for that too.
The one thing that I consistently see in lockdown fanatics is that they think that the lockdown has no consequences or it is just a small inconvenience on peoples lives, they think that the dubious unproven benefits of lockdown are worth it. They don’t even consider that lockdown its self may be unethical, they don’t seem to consider that massive economic, health, social, mental damage this is causing and that isn’t even mentioning the unprecedented assault on our liberties.
But sorry, I don’t buy the hype and hysteria around this virus. It has already been statistically proven is not dangerous to younger people, its such an insignificant threat to younger people that they would be much better off worrying about something else. While it is dangerous to older people (especially those who are 80+), so is every other virus on earth, even the flu does kill a lot of older folks and it is certainly not the death sentence you seem to imagine it is. That is fact of life.
MEMBER
1827617
The challenge is still there, as they say, put your money where your mouth is
So let me get this straight: Jeanne Freeman, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport, makes comments aboot independence and infighting, whilst First Minister Nicola Sturgeon makes statements on the telly aboot the pandemic. Have they swapped jobs? Anybody else see anything wrong here?
Daisy Walker @12:00pm
Wee Ginger Dug always presented himself/itself as the optimistic face of the independence movement where it was Tories Baaad, all of the time and SNP Baaad was only fit for the malcontents on Wings and we’ll hear no word of it. Now that events have started to shine the cold light of reality on the current situation the blog, but to a much greater extent the commenters, have to double-down on the SNP can do no wrong mantra if only to save face and their own sanity.
I will probably be out of the country as I have some business to take care of abroad and it will take about 6 months to complete
I will of course have my proxy vote ready just in case
Even out the country I will still put my x beside the SNP, and I have not seen any argument as to why I shouldn’t
iain mhor 12.01pm
Another fascinating Insight into the minds of people like yourself.
And the only way we will move forward is when we become totally honest with each other.
No politician bullshitting allowed.
Has there ever been a “good” time to live in Scotland?
Or have we always been slaves to London Rule?
@ Polly 11.20
‘But how to inspire and motivate? And what concrete steps towards that?’
Under normal circumstances a Campaign needs a Strategy.
We are a long way from normal, and a long way from the steep learning curve of 2013/14. We don’t need a strategy as such, just a little bit of gentle pointing…
Step 1/ The Independence Campaign starts now.
You are the expert in your field, all the tools you need are to hand on this and the many other sites listed. Business For Scotland has produced some very good book/leaflets ‘Scotland the Brief’ as but one example.
Step 2/ Get the Opinion Polls shifted to 60% before the end of the year.
Method a/ Target campaign the previous No Voter Groups with information about how Brexit, and Devo Demolition will adversely affect them.
We’re going to lose our NHS because of this – that’s a biggie for our pensioners and for our Tories! Professor Alyson Pollock gives a Ted Talk From Essex on You Tube (18 minutes long) to help you get the info about how expensive private health care is.
Method b/ in the process of all of the above, local people will become electable in the area. We know this is true, because this is what happened in Indy Ref1. If needs be they will then be in a position to step up to the plate for the HE list vote. A back up plan if you like.
Step 3/ Boris, Boris, Boris – we personalise this all the way. He is the pinnacle of all that is wrong with the WM system of Governing Scotland. And you know what…
We Can Do So Much Better Than Boris.
Methods of Delivery – Covid Safe – Pictures with info on them, Posters in windows, on cars, T shirts, Mugs, home made billboards in gardens, stuck on your wheelie bins and put out in the street.
Facebookie stuff for those good with SM.
Our YES hubs may be closed, but they can show a TV screen in the window with suitable info, and that can run 24/7.
And You, every single one of you are ambassadors for Indy.
And lastly – for now – none of the above treads on – in any way – SNP toes. All of it is good.
We unite on the common ground, for the common purpose.
Much the same goes for energy spent on Covid – could they have done it differently, better, should they have done it at all? Who knows, the data is all over the place, and its NEW. No-one knows.
Stop wasting energy debating it, and when campaigning do so in a way that is clearly seen to be deemed currently safe. Do not give your enemies a stick to hit you with or bring the movement into disrepute.
Used to be we had a country to win. Now we have a country to save – big difference and time is wasting.
David Caledonia,
I don’t have a membership number of any political party and I doubt I ever will. As Billy Connolly jokes “it just encourages them”.
I have always and only voted for the SNP because I want self determination for my country and would very much like a Scottish passport.
I don’t need to be a member of any party to voice an opinion and I’m on this site for independence not for the SNP.
Can someone please correct me if I’ve got this wrong.
The FM has said, the SNP government will, within six months, announce their timetable for a referendum on Independence. Taht means, they will announce how this will be done, some time between now and the end of February, 2021.
BUT, we are told it takes six months to set-up a referendum.
This means, any referendum will have to be held between March and September, 2021.
But, their mandate from the Scottish Parliament, to organise such a referendum will expire with the closing of the current Scottish Parliamentaary term, prior to the May 2021 Scottish Elections.
Therefore, if they don’t hold it before May, 2021, they will need to seek a new mandate from the new Scottish Parliament.
Getting this through will put the referendum back to at least November, 2021 at the earliest.
So, this timetable gives Westminster over a year to come up with some way of putting a spanner in the works, and staving off a referendum they already know they will lose.
The Tories could quite easily shut-down Holyrood within that time frame.
They could rush through their new Act of Union even.
They could agree a SEction 30 order, but, muddy the waters with a multi-question referendum, or offer us a enw form of Federalism, then, in good old Tory style, renage on this once they have stopped Independence.
I simply do not trust the Tories. Maybe our best bet would be to set the Referendum for the same date as the 2021 Holyrood Elections.
No way then, that the Tories could stop it. They could hardly tell their supporters not to vote, since that would hand the SNP an overwhelming majority at Holyrood.
Let’s see if the SNP could be as devious as the Tories, I certainly hope so.
@ Socrates
‘Maybe our best bet would be to set the Referendum for the same date as the 2021 Holyrood Elections.’
Yes.
And if the SNP will not do it. Then we will have to.
In one respect such a course of action would be deemed to be a glorified, unofficial opinion poll – but not I suspect – to those voters who partake.
The how it is done is another can of worms. Off the cuff I would suggest voters are requested to bring their polling card and ID, vote in the HE elections first then come out and vote for the Indy one.
They would have to be crossed off the list so the numbers are seen to be legit, and I would suggest that the count is done, on a rolling basis, in public view, about once every 2 hours, and the total published in the same way (we get some lea way to do it, since its ‘unofficial’).
And here’s the thing, there are valid arguments for and against, but if the planning and determination to carry it out is there, it puts pressure on the SNP to get the finger out.
If its not there… no pressure, no leverage, no nothing.
Breastplate
re. the purpose of lock-dowwn. Yes we have covered this ground already, and you are as misinformed and wrong now as you were then. So you’ve obviously not be doing the recommended reading. Though you do appear to support differential legal rights based on an individual’s biological vulnerability. So I may have to re-consider whether you do support illiberal authoritarianism, after all.
CBB,
Your opinion is just that, an opinion.
It may be based on other people’s opinions but is still an opinion and well capable of being wrong just as much as me.
How much stock you put in one person’s opinion over another is entirely subjective.
You’re quite happy to state that one expert opinion has credence while another does not.
You may believe that you are right in your opinion, I happen to believe you are not.
You can tell people that you are right and they are wrong as much as you like but that just exudes arrogance and misplaced at that.
As I have already pointed out there are a multitude of factors that can be taken into consideration and we all put different values on them.
What you value or one expert values will be different from me or another expert.
It is a subjective measurement. You seem not to understand this.
Daisy Walker says:
3 September, 2020 at 12:00 pm
Had a quick look this morning over on WGD site. Main thrust seems to be:
The voters are not ready for an Indy Ref, they are not ready for UDI, and they are not ready for a proxy vote for Indy through a GE or HE…
I know it’s not you Daisy, but pet gripe of mine is the antithesis to a UDI which some people draw like a gun. Not withstanding the fact we wouldn’t be making a UDI by defending our existing Constitution…(these folks have a hard time understanding the essential meaning of sovereignty). We do not have to go full out UDI.
In our current position, it would more than suffice to put forward, firmly and emphatically, a Constitutionally derived interdict on Brexit, that is to say a legal halt to proceedings, merely citing Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty and unlawful subjugation, and without going anywhere near a UDI or provoking any riots in the street, we have thrown Brexit’s Constitutional legitimacy into doubt, and stopped Brexit happening pending a resolution of a Constitutional dispute over disputed sovereignty… a dispute we would win.
“That” would create a Scottish Constitutional Backstop, a legal fallback position that was fatal to both Brexit and the Union, and it would be Westminster, not Scotland, who was forced to take their dodgy “sovereign conventions” before the UN to prove they could overturn Scotland’s sovereign assertion.
“Then” we could sit back watching the Union dangling precariously by fewer and fewer threads, safe in the knowledge that Westminster cannot resolve Scotland’s ultimatum nor overrule Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution.
The Union will fail, no referendum required, no UDI required. All we need to bring about are circumstances where the UK Union is scrutinised under a Constitutional microscope by a dispassionate committee at the UN.
Breastplate
My opinion is base on the study of science, ethics, law, and stuff. Which I have provided copious examples off. I don’t know what your opinion is grounded in, so I can safely dismiss it as being unreliable.
Bioethics webinar: COVID-19 testing – key human rights and ethical concerns
link to coe.int
@Sarah, 10.57
They are trying to ruin Craig Murray financially. This also serves as an example to put off any citizens who are thinking of acting like citizens not vassals. It is the essence of lawfare as used by the US and its vassal states in South America.
In light of the Lord Advocate’s admission that the Crown Prosecution Service and the police engaged in malicious prosecution of the two bankruptcy administrators, and the Rev’s quest to get a straight answer from the very same Crown Prosecution Service, I wonder if Craig Murray’s case is another example of malicious prosecution?
@ Daisy Walker
Remember not all of us campaigned last time and not all are naturals so I’d probably be a better envelope stuffer than door knocker next time. But with some of the unionists I know I’ve already been trying some of the stuff you mention.
Praising our NHS while warning of American takeover or Branson suing in England – it worked somewhat since they’ve health issues and now hang on Sturgeon’s words on tv and were raging we couldn’t close the border during covid.
Getting one to go to SNP councillor about a problem – it worked so well she went back to the same person a second time without my suggesting it and now tells me how great he’s been.
So I’ve had small successes but they’ve still got the ‘we managed before we were in EU we will again’ and usually end up ‘I try not to listen to news it depresses me’. So it needs someone more skilled than me. As for the rest it seems good advice. Once we get going properly, if we ever do, then it will come in handy. Thanks for the suggestions.
CBB,
Ffs this is hard work.
“The study of science, ethics, law and stuff.”
Social sciences aren’t in the same category of exact sciences.
Ethics proves my point entirely about subjective and hence variable values.
Laws differ entirely from place to place and from different times, these are also variables.
“Stuff”isn’t very specific so you’ve got me there.
So in summary any exact sciences you use to come to your opinion will probably get a thumbs up from me.
@ Polly: well done for trying. You sound good to me and have had some success. Carry on!
@ Cirsium: I am sure it is malicious prosecution of Craig and any other pro-Scotland people. It is dreadful – serious corruption of our “justice” system.
Talking of which, I have just sent a small donation to the “Justice for Sheku Bayoh” crowdfunder on crowdjustice site. Sheku’s sister has Aamer Anwar acting for them so it should be a go-er.
Breastplate
Had you even heard of “critical legal theory” or “critical realism”, before I turned up?
PHILOSOPHICAL FOUNDATIONS OF SCIENTIFIC ETHICS
link to people.emich.edu
@ Polly
‘I’ve had small successes’
Brilliant, I mean it, its absolutely brilliant. And that is where the victory is.
Remember Chinese water torture, drip by drip.
Remember also, we lose if we try to play them on a battlefield of their choosing. Your conversations are the thing they cannot duplicate.
People don’t want the naturals (too slick) – they want the person that they know, from work, from friends, from the neighbourhood.
Do not underestimate the influence you have, in your neck of the woods.
With regards ‘face to face’ Covid has put that on hold. So even if that method had been your thing, it would not be appropriate just now.
But doing the postie round with leaflets, while wearing gloves and a mask – of course. Bingo.
Putting the Poster in your window, Car, on your work mug. For the posters go for an info graphic rather than a slogan.
With regards the ‘we managed before we were in EU we will again’ and usually end up ‘I try not to listen to news it depresses me’. comments.
These are full stop comments. Either walk away and bide your time for a better moment, or counter it with a flippant counter remark.
‘We managed before we were in the EU’ – Aye that was in the days BB – Before Boris.
Even if you want Brexit – that bunch of buffoons couldn’t organise an expense paid trip to a hooker in their lunch hour…. oh wait.
‘I don’t listen to the news it depresses me’ – Aye, no wonder – Boris is a Buffoon – can’t even account for his own Bairns never mind the country. Have they got him out the fridge yet?
If they trot out the Scotland trades more with England than the EU, and England won’t trade with an Indy Scotland trope – nip it in the bud with the fact we provide England with huge amounts of Electricity (not the other way about) what are they going to do, sit round a candle?
For those with existing medical conditions… are you going to be able to afford private health care? Health bills are the number one reason Americans give for going bankrupt, and policies for those with a condition are way more/extremely expensive than for a healthy person and don’t tend to cover the main threat if it has the potential for recurring.
Finish on a positive – We Can Do So Much Better Than Boris.
And the great thing – all of the above is true.
And now a favour, since you’ve already been doing it informally, on the qt, as have we all.
Lets just hold our heads up a bit and do it deliberately – and get YES over the 60% before Brexit.
Peace to all.
Who rattled your age march for freedom ,so I’m led to believe
Just googled it and it seems right enough .Prof. Dolores Cahill one of the speakers.
When I hear someone shouting about ‘ethics’ I can’t help thinking of Pharisees praying loudly on street corners.
Gregory Beekman I listened to a doctor being interviewed who was called back from retirement at the age of 79 to help in covid ‘crisis’ . That and the fact that Ministers keep flouting the rules they enforce against the public tells me there is nothing to fear from covid.
Thanks Sarah but very small success. I will keep trying though.
@ Daisy Walker
My relatives, though unionists and most likely brexiters (though never actually owned up to it) are old style Labour folk, so already laugh at Boris and dislike him. I just wish there was an old Labour figure I could point to as having supported independence, that would help. I’ve been using the cronyism of the recent contracts too, especially NHS ones. With one watching Sturgeons briefings I hoped it was getting somewhere, but she still went back to attacking her when cluster arose in Aberdeen. I do some of what you suggest already and will try others so thank you for the encouragement. Two steps forward one back. Peace to you too.
According to the latest release from the National Records of Scotland, in the 32 weeks this year from January 1 to August 9, there have been 40,417 ALL CAUSE deaths in Scotland which works out at approx. 1,263 ALL CAUSE deaths per week. The table of excess deaths records 3,906 deaths attributed to covid19 during this period, sometimes on the basis of a test followed by death within a month, sometimes on the basis of suspicion of covid19’s presence. The 5-year average for deaths during this period is 36,082. So we have an excess mortality of 4,335, not all caused by covid19, over the 32 weeks to date. Now let’s look at who is dying. Among the over 85s, there were 2062 more deaths than usual (ie more than the 5-year average). There were 1613 more deaths than usual in the 75-84 age group and finally, there were 595 excess deaths in the 65-74 age group. Which brings us up to a total of 4270, just a little under the total number of excess deaths for this 32-week period. (Remember that not all these deaths were caused by covid19.) The average life expectancy for a Scotsman is 77 years and a Scotswoman 81. Sadly, whenever a virus is going about, the elderly are more likely to be the victims. Young people catch it, pass it on and acquire immunity. It would appear to be no different this time.
At the same time, according to the NRS, during the covid19 period from weeks 12 – 32, there were 3006 more deaths than usual (ie more than the five-year average) of people in their own home. These include cancer deaths + 1091, heart disease + 674, respiratory disease +98 and “other” + 710. At the same time, there were 459 fewer deaths in hospital during this period including -726 cancer, -533 heart disease, -567 respiratory disease and -249 “other.” All-cause deaths in care homes are up by 2335. These figures suggest that care homes are not a good place to be while a nasty virus is going about, hospitals are far from overwhelmed and many seriously ill people are avoiding going to hospital. Peak deaths from covid19 occurred during weeks 15-21 in the middle of lockdown and in week 32 there was ONE death from covid19 in the whole of Scotland. The virus, in other words, follows the usual bell-shaped curve. Such statistics may help people to make up their minds as to whether the or not the Scottish government’s response to covid19 is proportionate to the menace posed by the disease.
Genuine question. With all the talk of opinion polls here, has anybody ever been asked to take place in one? I don’t mean on this site, but in general. I know I certainly haven’t, and none of my friends have either. Just curious.
‘Daisy Walker says:
For those with existing medical conditions… are you going to be able to afford private health care? Health bills are the number one reason Americans give for going bankrupt, and policies for those with a condition are way more/extremely expensive than for a healthy person and don’t tend to cover the main threat if it has the potential for recurring.’
Here is something I wrote on my sporadically-updated blog aboot the slaughterhouse of American health ‘care’ when I lived there:
link to whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com
Reference WGD, disappointing how the site has so rapidly changed. Paul accused me of bias because I expressed concerns over SNP policies. He complains about the increased time he has to apply to moderation of comments and yet to me it seems he is simply increasing his involvement in discussion rather than moderating.
He is a decent person. Maybe he needs to take some time out and refresh. I wish him well.
Fuck me, I’m fucked off with the lack of any action for Indy.
Pompous gits with links to prove their intellectual superiority discussing never happening scenarios, and a government populated with New Labour Esque wankers.
What a fuckin time to be alive.
And folk wonder why some of us don’t post anymore.
Oh aye and an unopposed, U N O P P O S E D!! Brexit fast approaching while half the BTL on here is obvious trolls.
Amazed Stu came back off his holiday.
Wake me up when Scotland is ready
It is not often that you make mistakes but here you seem to think elimination of a virus the same as eradication.
We are all allowed to disagree with each other, but when an idiot tells you to fuck of you have to wonder if they ever attended school,
And as for the person wondering about my SNP membership and is it real, well , yes it is, I might have a few faults but mendaciousness is not one of them
As for all the silly moos that are having a go, as someone once said, its watter aff a duks bac
MEMBER 1827617
Confidential information, its my information and its certainly not illegal to disclose it here or anywhere else, and I don’t need a QC to tell me that
I wondered if the reason for this change is because ScotGov has no way of finding the money for extended furlough, and so cannot eradicate/get to 0 infections.
Admittedly, on past actions, your take on it is more likely.
WhoRattledYourCage says:
3 September, 2020 at 5:16 pm
“Genuine question. With all the talk of opinion polls here, has anybody ever been asked to take place in one? I don’t mean on this site, but in general. I know I certainly haven’t, and none of my friends have either. Just curious”.
I have, once. About 5 years ago. The only questions I can remember being asked were, how did I vote in Indy ref and how did I rate the party leaders on a scale of 1 to 10.
It would have been pretty clear to anyone where my affiliations were, I expected to be inundated with surveys after that, but no. I received a five pound note and an unfillable questionaire in the post and then nothing since.
With my tin foil hat on, that has made me very suspicious of opinion polls since. These companies will have databases of many thousands, if they want to they can get any answer to any question that they want. I am not saying that is what they do, just that it makes me suspicious.
Dogbiscuit
I don’t have the figures, but there were many news stories of retired NHS workers dying from Covid because they came out of retirement to help.
The two most-stupid decisions on Covid are bringing back retired NHS worker and re-opening pubs.
Hmmm I think that an element of realism has emerged here. I’m a Scot living in New Zealand and till about a month ago we had been covid free for 100 days, yet despite government quarantine of all returning Citizens and a ban on the entry of non-citizens and being 1500km from our nearest neighbour covid still somehow managed to enter New Zealand again. We locked down Auckland for almost 3 weeks and have reduced community transmission to between 1 and 4 cases a day with numbers continuing to decline with the goal of eliminating it a second time. Scotland will never eliminate covid unless and until it can control who enters and can forcibly quarantine people entering Scotland for 14days as we do in New Zealand. Lockdown also must occur wherever covid reappears. This is a difficult and challenging course of action but to be covid free is necessary. This also requires government wage support for affected employees a second tool the Scottish government lacks to fully eliminate covid