Andrew Nicoll in the Scottish Sun, 7 July 2014:
“The summer break means there are now only nine sitting days of the Scottish Parliament left before the big independence vote.
It also means I’ve more time on my hands to catch up with stuff, like a fascinating report from the Scottish Parliament Information Centre looking at how Scotland has changed since we first hosted the Commonwealth Games, back in 1970.
Take shipbuilding, for example. There are endless dire warnings that shipbuilding will be killed off by independence. All I can say is that, reading this report, the UK has already had a damned good try.
In 1970 Scotland’s shipbuilding industry employed 34,000 people, with 10,000 jobs in Glasgow alone. When the Games returned to Edinburgh in 1986, we had 25,000 shipbuilders and now there are just 6,000, half of them in Glasgow.
That doesn’t sound to me like a recipe for success.”
Our emphasis. The full report can be read here.
Our mole at “Better Together” HQ has just leaked us their new take on the stats:
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Aye that Glasgow is hard done by as ususal. Rest of Scotland down from 24000 to 3000 but Glasgow 10000 to 3000; song and dance over Glasgow’s 70% loss but not a cheep over the 88% elsewhere.
Will Glasgow spend any of its £1bn from the Governments to facilitate building other sorts of boats on the Clyde? Not on your nelly they’ll build that white elephant rail link to the airport. Well its something you can see, you see, you can’t see men at work.
I don’t particularly care about papers coming “out” and formally siding with Yes or No.
What I do care about is that they at least report some facts and figures *and* put the various fears/risks/”unknowns” in context.
This Sun article, for me, fits this reasonable objective.
“There are endless dire warnings that shipbuilding will be killed off by independence. All I can say is that, reading this report, the UK has already had a damned good try.”
How refreshing to see an MSM journalist actually highlight the elephant in the room.
Is that picture really supposed to be an advert in support of the union? Lol
Just a moment ago I got a Better Together leaflet through the door. I didn’t see who delivered it (too early for the postie) Whoever it was they skedaddled quick. Probably something to do with the Yes signs in the window.
“The Facts you Need” Even at a quick first glance it is just another pack of lies. Desperate stuff! Includes on the front page “Need a postal vote form? See back page.”
Is that picture really supposed to be an advert in support of the union?? Lol
OK – please tell me that wee red, yellow, blue ship poster is a spoof. It is, right? Because surely they cannot be that glaikit as to think it does not advertise the opposite of what they wnnt; and yet I believe they may be that daft.
And our neighbour Norway, population 5 million, has a booming ship building industry and oil expro construction and giant passenger liners and cargo ships and oil support vessels, or 75 Norwegian shipyards are hard at work but all we have is teamGB threats that the UK will take away all their RN white elephants. So scary.
link to nav.no
Keep clapping…
Glasgow will never see that 1 billion, maybe 15 million of it this year but after that it will vanish.
The money has to be used for infrastructure such as road or rail projects and also has to be spent in Glasgow.
Going off half cocked makes you look like a cock by the way…
Keep on Rabbiting
So the money that they wont get has to be spent on infrastructure so why dont they spend the non-money on the infrastructure to build other sorts of boats and give men employment instead of a useless rail link that will put taxi drivers out of business?
Rosa – it’s a spoof!
If you don’t believe me I also have some tartan paint for sale…
Yes it’s a spoof.
Because they’d never actually put out anything that honest.
Once again look up the story “boiling a frog”
If you raise the temperature slowly the frog doesn’t notice and sits in the pot until it’s too late.
Shipyard workers – you are not sitting in a nice cosy warm bath. Vote NO and you are cooked.
A Scottish journalist doing the job they are trained to do????
If they are not praising the Union then off with their heads.
In 1977, State owned British Shipbuilders Ltd took over the running of the majority of Shipbuilding in Scotland.
Then when Thatcher was elected in 1979, she had the power at her finger tips to close down as many shipyards as she liked. And she didn’t disappoint, yard after yard was closed down in the 1980’s.
Actually, if the ships were to scale, 1984b and 2012 would be much, much smaller.
For Krist sake guys –
Osborne is borrowing £198 billion in 2014-15.
Scotland`s Budget was set last Sept for 2014 @ £28.6 billion.
Our share of the debt is approx – £19.8 billion.
I`m kinda sure that Scotland supplies more than £8.8 billion.
These are AFTER Scotland`s Budget has been CUT every year since 2007/08.
Lamont`s pet economist – Midwinter – demands further Cuts at £2.2 billion – from the current budget at £28.6 billion.
We are watching one hand clapping – nae sound – where we should all be furious.
Just had a quick look at the Norwegian shipyard recruitment ad linked above. Interesting reading, not least for the pay offered…
Unskilled general work pays NOK 134,85 an hour, or £12.74 an hour.
Experienced unskilled workers are paid NOK 141,53, or £13.37 an hour.
Skilled workers get NOK 148,29, or £14.00 an hour.
As the leaflet helpfully points out, tax is roughly a third of your pay, so only marginally higher than our tax/NI contributions.
Why anyone would want to stay in a Union that has a minimum wage of £6.31 is beyond me.
I can, to an extent, understand why people fear the impact of Independence on shipbuilding, but it is a misplaced fear. Indy allows us to go after shipbuilding jobs, and more importantly, building the necessary wave power generators that will contribute so much to Scotland’s wealth going forward. I don’t understand why this point is not being made more forcibly to the shipyards: Scotland has immense potential to generate power for her own use and for selling to others… but in order to do so, she will need engineers and builders who are used to working with steel which can stand up to the worst that the sea can throw at it. They will need to be able to build complex structures of strength and intricacy… now where on earth might we find such highly skilled workers?
The Man in the Jar – I got one through the door last night as well, kept their head down, but it looked like Christine Jardine.
Got a Yes sign in the window so not sure why she would want me to come along to a Better Together public meeting in Rothienorman Town Hall next Tuesday at 19:30.
I’ll be there though, a local businessman and a local farmer will also be there talking.
So it’ll be interesting to hear the shite they spout.
If I had some wings cards etc I’d take them along!
And our neighbour Norway, population 5 million, has a booming ship building industry and oil expro construction and giant passenger liners and cargo ships and oil support vessels, or 75 Norwegian shipyards are hard at work but all we have is teamGB threats that the UK will take away all their RN white elephants. So scary.
Precisely, the great tragedy/scandal of all this, is that Scotland’s ship building industry did not have to decline. Huge, new markets in oil support vessels and luxury liners were emerging at the same time the old traditional work fading. The 30,000 skilled workforce in 1972 could have contributed so much to the modern fleets of the world, and of course the ecomony of Scotland. of course, this would have required serious investiment to retool infrastructure, retrain the workforce and open new markets. I guess the easiest thing was to let the yards go and use the oil money to pay the ex-shipbuilders unemployment benefit. An opportunity lost.
It is worth noting, however, that the costs of reinvesting in the Scottish shipbuilding industry would have been but a fraction of that required to bale out the failing banks in 2008.
Darling’s latest cracker comments from the Guardian:
The impact of Scotland voting for independence could be more damaging for the UK than the 2008 banking crisis, Alistair Darling has warned.
The leader of the Better Together campaign recalled that, as Chancellor, he was told that RBS cashpoints were about to run dry as the bank went bust. He contrasted this temporary crisis with the permanent implications of a Yes vote in the referendum on 18 September.
In an interview with The Independent, Mr Darling said: “Being told the world’s largest bank has three hours before it collapses does provide a shock to the system. But the decision on Scotland is forever. It’s irrevocable, irreversible.
“If we get it wrong, it will have a profound effect, not just on Scotland, but the rest of the UK. The stakes in the banking crisis were big; this is so much bigger.”
Is there anything Darling would not say, or do to get an ermine coat in the House of Lords?
Bugger , picked up on Labi Siffre – I taught drama in a school for what would be described as a place for
” challenging” young folk , all girls and I loved ’em all!
One lass could sing really well and came to ask if she could sing it in our end of term show , I was delighted and knew the other girls would love the sentiment of the song. Another youngster was a beautiful acrobatic dancer and donning a long ,circle skirted dress she cartwheeled, spun and danced elegantly round the stage.
For me it was a magical moment – no effort on my part just two talented youngsters giving the audience shivers!
Are those supposed 3000 jobs worth risking for the sake of independence.Damn right they are! This is about the future of our nation not some niche shipbuilding in one city with one customer. We are trying to re-vitalise the whole of Scotland and shouldn’t have a narrow debate about every single sector. This is bigger than my job and everyone elses job. Self interest has no place in this debate.
Let me re-state my point now that calmness has returned.
Osborne is borrowing £198 billion for 2014-15.
Scotland`s share of £198 billion – is approx £19.8 billion.
Last year Osborne set the Scottish Parliament Budget at only £28.6 billion for 2014-15.
I`m kinda sure that Scotland supplies the Treasury with a lot more than £8.8 billion.
After the new labour govt – and the unelected ConDem govt have consistently CUT Scotland`s Budget every single year since 2007/08 they are considering offering waallies (£500million) after robbing us of tens of billions?
After cutting the budget year on year the ConDems are offering £500 million – with the proviso – that Holyrood matches the money from Westminster?
£500 million cut from Scottish projects to assist BamCam and Clegg to consign us into further austerity.
Beware geeks bearing gifts.
DD
Most if not all of Scotland’s heavy industry was lost in the teamGB class wars of the 70’s and 80’s. History is written by the victorious UKOK elites or rather their media lackeys but the working classes of this country were challenged by the Tories and the miners, steel workers, ship builders lost everything. As St Thatch said, New Labour is her greatest achievement.
Aye and the hanfull of workers still employed in MOD shipbuilding want to hold the rest of Scotland to ransome over their jobs. We can all come up with some invented story about how each of our jobs might be at risk post independence. So they would rather vote no and have the Tories in charge of Scotland to safeguard their jobs. No irony in that and what happened to collective socialism.
Good article, even better that it’s in the Sun. Now I’m no fan of the Sun but the one thing about them that I do know is that they like to be on the winning side (remember the Sun wot won it nonsense) and the fact that they have moved squarely into the middle of the fence means that they think it’s too close to call, though if anything I think they might tend to be leaning towards believing the Yes vote will carry the day. Good stuff.
So since the Thatcher triumph of teamGB, unionist Aberdeen City council has sold off nearly 20 thousand council houses or about half their stock. No council houses have been built in the last 30 years at least, Athough a couple of hundred have been built lately, there’s 5 to 6 thousand people on their waiting list.
Subsequently, house rental costs in Aberdeen have gone up astronomically with cheapest houses, ex council houses, starting at £1500 per month, 2 months deposit etc. Even more subsequently, Aberdeen City council finance convener Sir Willie Young is also a landlord millionaire, a New Labour landlord millionaire but rich Willie is also famous in Aberdeen for banning all SNP Scots.gov people for all Aberdeen Council property and you have to wonder why or not.
That Bbc Scotland at the Bias reporting again.
Clyde Space Building & Launching a Satalite
dont they know we’re no Geneticly modify’ed to make big
decissions, next thing you know they’ll be saying We can
a Successful Independant Country.
To the Men/women at Clyde Space would you,s Email Johann
an tell her You’s are a Geneticly modifyed species &
outwith the normal population thanks.
Following on from heedtracker’s link and Teechur’s mathematical calculations
, I wonder if there is anyone available who has any idea what the comparable wages are in Glasgow for the 3,000 lucky souls still working in the shipyards there.
ronnie anderson says:
To the Men/women at Clyde Space would you,s Email Johann
an tell her You’s are a Geneticly modifyed species &
outwith the normal population thanks.
Wheesht ronnie!
What you trying to do here alert Hammond to the fact that we have been invaded by aliens so he can gloat over his warning about alien invasion if we vote YES?
Alert Alert.
Just received my Gold Badge. Many Thanks Rev & Many Thanks
to All the Wingers who donated their hard earned.
I will work tirelessly as I have done this far in
Secureing a Independant Scotland
One Proud Winger.
Indeed, “we could be diving for pearls” instead of being treated like fools by Westminster and its unionist lackeys.
Take the plunge on September 18th and vote Yes.
O/T For those under the illusion that Glasgow is going to be gifted with £500mn from the Tories just remember what one of their most respected figures – and according to some, the future leader of the party – yes, Boris Johnson, said a couple of years ago:
“A pound spent in Croydon is of far more value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde…”You will generate jobs in Strathclyde far more effectively if you invest in parts of London.”
link to theguardian.com
Just beat me to it Dan Huil.
If we choose No, then we are the “people (who) get filled in”. Unionist, Seperationist, Shipyard worker, everyone really. Bar those already at the trough.
O/T but my Slovene girlfriend Jezereena just had a very big vote no tantrum over at CiF Graun.
link to id.theguardian.com
“The SNP are arrogant LIARS showing zero respect for the people of Scotland (or the international community, for that matter)”
The Professor’s having a bad day up there in his Glasgow uni Gothic ivory tower:D
Big Jock…I couldn’t agree more. It’s the “I’m alright Jack” attitude that Thatcher instilled in people that has done so much damage to Scotland. This is beyond “self importance” this is about self determination and a nations ability to govern itself…wisely and fairly.
If the selfish and narrow minded would take their heads out of their arses, and grow a pair, they would see that independence has the potential for a more prosperous future for all which includes themselves.
Those scared to back their country and countrymen for their own short term financial security make me sick, angry and sad. If their is a no vote the stench of pish, shit and fear will contaminate the streets, towns and cities of Scotland for years to come.
A reminder of why the Portsmouth yard was closed, who was responsible, and WHEN it was decided :
link to bbc.co.uk
Labour were in power, and “Wanderin’ Jim Murphy” was Secretary of State for Scotland. Gordon Brown was PM, and Alistair Darling was Chancellor. Does anyone believe they weren’t a part of those BVT/MoD/Westminster negotiations ?
It was BBC Scotland that broke the story.
Yet all of them seem to have ‘forgotten’ about it – and the exclusive 15 year contact awarded to BVT/BAE to build all RN ships is IT’S shipyards.
That’s why Hammond and others haven’t actually said ‘we will not build any MoD ships in an independent Scotland’ – just that ‘it’s never been done before’ and that ‘it’s extremely unlikely’.
BAE have obviously waved that contract in Westminster’s face, and possibly mentioned things like ‘Supreme Court’ and ‘breach of contract’ to Hammond&Co.
Wonder why it’s not a front page story ?
So next time you spot Wanderin’ Jim on his crate (or ANY member of the Westminster government) with a loudhailer, ask him about that memo and that contract.
Agree with the comment above.
The poster would have more impact if the ships were to scale.
The bottom ship would be less than a fifth as big as the top ship.
This should go on a billboard outside rosyth and govan.
@ Lesley Anne SoS ur we no supposed tae celebrate oor acheivments,or ur we saveing them up an hit them wie them all at wance, oh you are cruel.
Looks like BtP has been donating..
link to bbc.co.uk
Tian Tian is up the duff, this could be the deciding factor in the referendum
The problem doesn’t stem from the skilled worker or voter regarding shipbuilding in Scotland’ the problem stems from BAE management.
link to eveningtimes.co.uk
Meanwhile Ian (Bayonet him)Davidson, claims the SNP have told the biggest lie in history over affordable pensions in Scotland, even though Scotland is far better placed than the rUK to provide pensions.
Source Daily Record no link I’m afraid.
ronnie anderson says:
@ Lesley Anne SoS ur we no supposed tae celebrate oor acheivments,or ur we saveing them up an hit them wie them all at wance, oh you are cruel.
To be fair ronnie I thought it would be better for us just to hit them with everything at once. I didn’t want our celebrations to be constantly interrupted as we dealt another we *ahem* belter* to Cameron and co. In my skewered outlook on life the two week celebration starting on 19th September is FAR more important than constantly reminding Cameron of what he has lost.
Congratulations Ronnie. Well deserved.
On the panda news story I believe that it is not uncommon for pandas to have twin cubs. So, if Tian Tian ends up with twin cubs we will have vastly increased the differential between Tory M.P.’s in Scotland and pandas in Scotland but more importantly we’d be on the verge of passing the number of LibDem M.S.P.’s in Hollyrood with our panda numbers.
Ronnie Anderson
Hey Ronnie, now you have this gold badge do I call you Sir,Lord or just Mr Anderson?.
O/T.
Alistair Darling, claiming that Scottish independence, will be worse than the crash of 2008. Erm! weren’t you chancellor of the in power Labour government Alistair, and you did nothing to try and avoid the crash,infact you didn’t even see it coming, so why would any sane person listen to you now.
link to dailymail.co.uk
Just checked my WINGS badge…it’s Silver ????????????
Great news ronnie. You have earned your gold badge. I assume we all will now have to bow and curtsey before you in future now.
Is it me or does this sound a wee bit like the old Blue Peter badge thingy where folks got a B.P. badge or a GOLD B.P. badge?
@Heedtracker
great link you supplied there, here’s a wee paragraph from it
After a large decline of employees in the mid seventies, the employment level in the
Norwegian shipbuilding industry has been very stable ever since. Today, the Norwegian
shipbuilding industry, including the equipment industry, employs directly approximately 20.000 people.
The shipyards employ 5.000 persons. The short time employees, hired labour,
have been about 3.500 in the shipyards. The maritime industry however, including shipyards,
ship owners, equipment industry and services employs approximately 90.000 persons.
Norwegian maritime industry is an innovative sector much based on human resources and competence.
link to nav.no
O/t
Has anyone else noticed a huge rise in trolls on YES Facebook pages? There are increasing amounts of YES sites in Fife. YES Kirkcaldy Glerothes, Dunfermline, Cupar , St Andrews. Trolls are out on masse and NO voters too are just trying to shut the Referendum debate down! This must be their next phase! The SNP sites are suffering the most! Again trying to shut debate down! No,s can’t debate. They have nothing good to offer except the same old, same old and even less!
I recommend Wings to them and welcome them to debate? Anybody got any better ideas?
God give me strength, Margaret (Furriner) Curran claims Scottish independence would be a “Leap in the dark”, no Margaret staying with the union is a “Leap in the dark”. Why? well we’d be at the mercy of Westminster’s policy decisions, in a UK ridden with a massive debt of £1.3 trillion pounds.
To add to the uncertainty Margaret, another £25 billion pounds of cuts by either the Tories or Labour is on the cards, if we are stupid enough to vote no, and we’d be lumbered with our share of the £100 billion yet to be spent on renewing Trident, along with still having them parked on our doorstep.
link to heraldscotland.com
To be fair FoS the NO side have been trying to shut the debate down right from day 1. Oh yes they keep calling for open and honest debate every time they go on to BBC or wherever but the reality is that when ever a debate is organised they refuse to participate. This is what they see as stifling the debate but then turn round and blame YES for not wanting to debate.
Cynical…absolutely.
Believable… absolutely NOT
Con artists… Definitely
Liars… of course
Fearties… you bet it
The occasional, very occasional debate NO supporters have participated in have resulted in them being blown out the water by the YES side every time. NO have no answers nor do they have any solutions to the current financial predicament Scotland is in. The best, in fact the ONLY, answer they have is the old favourite of “we promise you’ll get jam tomorrow!”
@Jim Marshall says: 8 July, 2014 at 3:13 pm
“Hey Ronnie, now you have this gold badge do I call you Sir,Lord or just Mr Anderson?”
Naw! The correct form of address in Scotrland is : –
“Haw You! Sir”
or perhaps, “See You! Sir”.
O/T, and also posted in O/T.
I’ll be in Dunoon the weekend of the BBC Demo but I’d like to try and get back over for it. Any one from Argyll planning to go across for it? i’d like to hitch a lift – and pay towards travel expenses of course. I’ll be at Stratheck from 24th.
TIA
Congratulations Ronnie
Well deserved and a wee drink coming your way next time we meet. Delighted for you.
JOCK am with you there bud. The “i’m alright jack” days are over it’s time we looked around instead of inwards.
Selfish Unionists . YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
@ Robert Peffers, Jim Marshall.
Caw me whitever the hell ye want, but dont caw me doon
am flyin high deyin loop la loop,like wan o they Tumbler
pidgions.
@Lesley-Anne says: 8 July, 2014 at 3:20 pm
“Is it me or does this sound a wee bit like the old Blue Peter badge thingy where folks got a B.P. badge or a GOLD B.P. badge?”
Well it sure beats the Blue Badge I got for disabled parking. The one I am finding problems attempting to get Fife Council to renew on-line. Strange, as without being able to renew it on-line I have to go to an office to renew it. Thing is, without it I can’t park near enough to get to the office. Sheesh!
Seriously, though, well done Ronnie – yer a hero.
I can only guess Robert that the Labour run Fife council obviously consider you fit enough to walk. They must have had their ATOS spies watching you from afar recently.
@ Lesley Anne,ah never even goat a Crackerjack pinthil before being awarded a Gold Badge, so Thanks to All.
I’m sure you will wear your gold badge with enormous pride ronnie in conjunction with a lot of envy from the rest of us.
@Yesguy thanks noo nae grovling n tuggin the forelocks fae you’s lot I”ll still be the same person & dont caw me Sire am passed the stage ave done awe the Sire’in am gonny dey lol.
@ronnie anderson says: 8 July, 2014 at 3:51 pm
“am flyin high deyin loop la loop,like wan o they Tumbler pidgions”.
That brings to mind the angry retort from my pal’s wee brother when he, (the wee brother), was about 7 years old and wasn’t getting things his own way. As he ran away in defeat he yelled over his shoulder, “Stuff you an ah hope yer pidgions dee”.
I sometimes smile to myself as I picture some childish Better Together numptie running away in defeat calling over his/her shoulder, “an Ah hope yer pidgions dee”.
;-))
@ Defo
defo!
Defo
The things I do for Scotland.
@ Lesley-Anne
Would they not be due a seat in Holyrood now?
link to mylivestreams.com
Well to be fair BtP I’m certain thwey would do MORE good and benifit the people a great deal more than the numpties currently sitting there under the Lib Dem banner are doing.
Norway builds Oil supply boats for the Scottish Oil sector and cruise liners, an expanding Market. Norway builds over 100 ships a year.
BtP
I wonder, did the zoo advertise for a Panda fiddler ?
Defo
I think it was probably done that way with the male comatose, like most Scottish conceptions.
In light of the figures refered to above, I thought it would be interesting to see how employment in the shipbuilding industry in Scotland had fared post-Thatcher/Major.
This link gives a figure of 10,100 employed in 1996 and 5400 in 2004.
link to yourshipbuildingnews.com
So taking 6000 as the current level, there has been a very small bounce but overall a loss of 4100 jobs in the industry under Blair/Brown/Cameron’s Union.
The Union clearly has not saved jobs in the shipbuilding industry, even post-Thatcher.
Sorry to be o/t,but this is just a wee thaught.How do people in old folks homes get to vote,and do people who also suffer from dementia get to vote too and how exactly??.
Re the Norwegian yards topic. How many Scots are currently working there?
@Ronnie Anderson
Finally got that well deserved gold Wings badge. My thanks to everyone who contributed.
So pleased to hear that your badge arrived, Ronnie. I’m sure you’ll wear it well xxx
I do love our mole
The unionist “broad shoulders” claims are utter stuff and nonsense that are ripe for exposure with little effort as this Sun journalist has ably demonstrated in his simple message that speaks volumes.
The daily tripe coming out of the newsprint media is nothing but a smokescreen to divert attention away from Westminster’s catastrophic mismanagement of the UK economy.
For C*****s sake Westminster has run up a £1.5 trillion public sector debt that it nothing to show for and hasn’t a cats chance in hell of paying off and its still adding to the debt and borrowing to pay the interest, and its still trying to tell Scots that they are better off under Westminster.
Its an open goal waiting to be filled in by YES campaigners.
I know some Wings readers won’t like this, and more still will be unaware, but The Scottish Sun has easily, consistently offered the most balanced coverage of the referendum. I read it every single day, along with all the other papers, and it has done itself proud. I find it strange that so much more weight is given to the coverage in papers that sell less than 1/10th of the Sun.
It’s been remarked on before. Then there will be an absolutely dreadful article and everyone will rip it to pieces. But there has been serious speculation that the Sun might come out for Yes in the last weeks of the campaign.
Off topic.
The Yes Scotland Information Hub is crowdfunding for four advert trailers to cover the STIRLING constituency. These will be vital in helping secure a Yes vote in the STIRLING area for the referendum on 18th September.
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@ Andrew
That’s 5 fucking threads today with the same fucking post.
Do you really think this is doing you any favours?