Developing a complex
Posted on
June 10, 2023 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Wings two days ago: “The SNP wants to do a devo-max deal with Labour”.
The SNP today: “We’re prepared to do a devo-max deal with Labour”.
Which is a bit of a departure from last year:
But then the SNP is getting awfully predictable.
They can stick it up their sporran
Independence or nothing
Jamie Hepburn is proposing that? Jamie Hepburn THE INDEPENDENCE MINISTER thinks Devo-Max is the answer to Scotland’s problems?!? The SNP are basically begging us not to vote for them now, aren’t they?
It’s all so very, very sad.
Rev, mibbe time to stop giving them ‘ideas’?
All Labour have to do is sit tight. They are going to win the next General Election in Scotland and the UK. For the avoidance of doubt Labour will sell their souls for Power. Anas Sarwar willing to impose 7th Century values on the Scottish Women population. Women have a penis. Women should wear a headdress. Women should stay in the hoose.
Scottish Cringe given a retrofit by Sturgeon and her minions. SNP has single hardly demoralised the entire country.
‘Rise and be a Nation again’? SNP NEC can play that shitty dirge of a song, at their wake.
All so depressingly predictable.
Nothing else for it…
SNP out!
Well Stu, some of us have said that this writing was on the wall for a number years, given the onboarding of ex-Labour members & candidates who jumped political-ship to save their own gravy when the writing was on the wall and Labour collapsed in Scotland – a process that was endorsed by SNP HQ in spite of the local branch selected candidates being voted in as candidates, most of whom were stalwarts & life-long independence supporters who were shoved out of the way by the Sturgeon’s SNP HQ in favour of ex-Labour members from the political classes (Sturgeon didn’t do this alone, she’s just not that smart of an individual, there were plenty of unionists/devolutionists/agents of the fcdo already embedded into the SNP back then & since who helped her destroy the SNP from within).
The signs were there and nobody paid attention to them because “ballot box numbers & selfies are more important”, throwing out integrity and the candidate vetting & checks for the sole point of numbers to brag about in the news – rather than real change on the ground, that’s when the sabotage of the SNP went into full-swing and now it’s coming full circle – Sturgeon’s & Murrell’s SNP HQ have turned that political party into just another branch of Labour and the Tories combined.
At this point I really don’t know why they dont just start waving the butchers apron around instead of SNP flags and Saltire’s, it is more than obvious what the SNP HQ stand for now and has been for a number of years, one just needs to look at the public attacks on Scottish people by the likes of Pete Wishart as an example of what they really think about Scottish people, all that will be left in the SNP are the mentally weak and controllable either through fear bred into them by the British State controlled MSM or indoctrination via the SNP’s Youth onboarding program.
The Colonial UK state have their dirty hands all over this (helped in part by the willing political classes seeking self-enrichment), one just needs to look at the level of interfering the UK still do today in other sovereign nations around the world, the parallels are patently obvious.
George Ferguson I’d stay in the hoose rather than go to vote for these ("Tractor" - Ed)s.
Nobody in scotland wants devomax or crazy legislation, that’s why labour were given their jotters.
It’s a sad day for the SNP and independence.
Nobody in scotland wants devomax or crazy legislation, that’s why labour were given their jotters.
It’s a sad day for the SNP and independance.
What is most enraging is that we have many commenters posting BTL here and on other blogs who would make far better politicians and representatives of Scots than the detritus we have in the WHOLE Scottish parliament
TBQH having watched many FM questions I am constantly embarrassed that these moronic clowns in all parties are supposed to represent the best of Scots
Do we not have enough people with the integrity honesty and self belief in their abilities, to embrace the challenge of representing their nation
Party politics is organised corruption where if your face fits irrespective of ability you become part of the hierarchy, and as we have seen for decades it is all just one magic roundabout where they all get a turn at robbing the public purse whilst doing nothing to make the lives of citizens better
What is most enraging is that we have many commenters posting BTL here and on other blogs who would make far better politicians and representatives of Scots than the detritus we have in the WHOLE Scottish parliament
TBQH having watched many FM questions I am constantly embarrassed that these moronic clowns in all parties are supposed to represent the best of Scots
Do we not have enough people with the integrity honesty and self belief in their abilities, to embrace the challenge of representing their nation
Party politics is organised corruption where if your face fits irrespective of ability you become part of the hierarchy, and as we have seen for decades it is all just one magic roundabout where they all get a turn at robbing the public purse whilst doing nothing to make the lives of citizens better
Never mind folks, it will be the “most powerful devolved administration in the world”. The clueless dopes leading the SNP have put their wee heads together and have concluded that this just might save their gravy train. I really can’t tell the difference between “Scottish” Labour and the “Scottish” National Party.
The Scottish National Party, no longer Scotish or natonal, I’m afraid. How sad. Time to cut our losses and move on.
They really should just put their pants on their heads , stick two pencils up their nostrils and say wibble. They are sadder than Labour when they were sent into Oblivion. What a fucking embarrassment of a party.
The problem with the SNP – and it is a real one- is that to folk like Ben McPherson and Jamie Hepburn, ‘independence’ is just a slogan. Both use it as a vehicle for their own careers, but it isn’t genuinely important to them.
Alex Salmond BELIEVES that independence is right for Scotland, the two frauds, Jamie and Ben just talk about it. It is, to them just another political slogan, like ‘free bus passes’, or ‘low taxes’ , and so on. More important to them is keeping on the MSP gravy train, no matter what.
The SNP is now chock full of these political careerists like Ben McPherson, with his “strong british identity”, who in another world, would happily be in the Labour party (where Ben came from). To these folk, career comes first, independence and what the people who elected them want is irrelevant.
The SNP is now the party of the status quo, and ‘please London, can we have a few more diddy powers please’.
These people have truly sold their souls. Not quite sure how they look at themselves in the mirror in the morning. Maybe they just see their fat, bulging, paycheck.
The SNP,
the do nothing party the devo max partyA parcel of rogues in a nation.Ladies n Gentlemen put yr hands together for the winners of the Champion’s League of Cunts – s.n.P . YEA !!!
No one ever believed they could overcome fierce opposition for that coveted trophy from s.Labour , s.Lib n not-of-this-planet Greens : no-the-noo Nu s.n.P have proved the naysayers wrong .
So what if they’ve abandoned – at the end of the day , petty , considerations like integrity , honesty , commitment and ( yawn ) competence in their single-minded pursuit of limitless gravy ; it’s the * winning * that counts , right ?
WRONG . 100% wrong . Oblivion beckons
Once again , those damned * conspiracy theorists * will be proved right .
This has been the PLAN – the only plan – since at least 2014 . Destroy the SNP from within and without via covert Unionists inside promoting lunatic policies and battalions of Gender Imbeciles outside . Hand-in-hand with barely believable levels of incompetence + consistent failure , blatant/arrogant contempt for the public , leading to abject capitulation to the * inevitable ….formal coalition with Unionist Labour and the abandonment of Independence as raison d’etre – though no doubt scabby lip=service will still be paid to that quaint little notion come election times .
I’ll ask again ……Alex Salmond/ALBA – still think you can work with the political obscenity that is Nu SNP ?
The next election is lost. Or lost at least for the SNP. They have sold out and are finished.
But independence is not finished. Far from it. Independence will not however be secured by a vote for this collapsing devolutional SNP who at best will now be a unionist party in a hung colonial administration.
Rather independence will be achieved by people voting for independence and not, most definitely not, the SNP.
The SNP in its present form must be destroyed lock, stock and barrel.
Twathater spot on.
Robert Louis , also spot on.
For all those saying they won’t bother to vote I would ask that they do but spoil their ballot papers so that the world can see that Scotland is not remotely represented by this bunch of chancers – unless there is an ISP or Alba option.
Scott Fotheringham says:
11 June, 2023 at 3:14 am
Nobody in scotland wants devomax or crazy legislation, that’s why labour were given their jotters.
It’s a sad day for the SNP and independance.
The sad thing is the extent to which voters left Labour to flock to the SNP was interpreted as a change in their thinking to support Independence.
It isn’t my intention to insult them, but having people prepared to vote for Independence if and when their leader tells them to, isn’t the same thing as a determined Independence Movement.
Sadly for Scotland, those “sheep” were led to go soft on Independence, and follow their “chief Mammy”, (god how that twisted perception sticks in my craw), to focus on anything but Independence, and the flock of impressionables duly did so like so many turkeys voting for Christmas.
Ok, so there is neither talent nor intellect in the SNP’s talent pool, but nor is there any genuine hunger for Independence amongst them. They are fickle.
This Flock of Impressionables left Labour as sheep, and joined the SNP as sheep, and we saw the same lack of awareness and dearth of talent transferring from Labour over to the SNP. What swamped Labour has swamped the SNP.
I repeat, my purpose is not to insult them. They are a crop sown deliberately, (or maybe the breed of sheep cultivated over decades), by the UK Establishment and BBC indoctrination, which are bred docile and subservient by design. Designed to grumble, but never to fight. They are Scots, like you and me, but damaged and crushed.They are carnivores put in a zoo who are now overly accustomed to being fed by hand.
We talk of “numbers” abandoning the SNP and switching to ALBA, and while I see it, I also dread it. History repeats.
So what’s the answer? ALBA having a quarantine for “new” membership designed to weed out the insipid who are indifferent about Independence? Good luck with that.
Thing is, is Scottish Independence really a battle for the ephemeral hearts and minds of this Flock of Impressionables? To me, this “battle” is a hoax. This “phenomenon”, this grey area of soft-nos or undecideds. It’s phoney. It’s a construct which only a UK system requires.
It is the living essence of British Imperialism. Split the host population in two, have them paired off in acrimonious equilibrium, and then hold the balance of power with minimal force, while at the same time exuding the role of benign keeper of the peace. The Imperial power holds both ends of the string.
This is why I feel very close to Auld Scotland’s Constitution, and the input from SALVO. Scotland, before it was contaminated by the Union, was strong and robust. The Union weakened us. Go back to the time when Scotland was strong and rebuild ourselves from first principles.
I mean, I’ve been banging on about sovereignty for years, and while those opinions have been bolstered by SALVO, even seeing a vindication of sorts, the strength now coming from our Constitution is only part of the deal.
The other door SALVO is opening, is the opportunity to dissassemble ourselves as a political component in a domestic UK context, and reassemble ourselves as a wholly separate entity which addresses Scottish politics and Constitution via “un”-indoctrinated channels.
We Scots require NOTHING from Westminster. All things Westminster, all Act, protocols, conventions and presumptions, are VOID. They are invasive doctrines with no legitimacy.
We HAVE what Westminster covets most. Sovereignty.
Scottish “Democracy” is quite literally a proxy war for the war over Constitutional Sovereignty; a war they can fight in place of the war they can’t.
Westminster REQUIRES UK Democracy to be embedded in Scotland, because it empowers them in the proxy war. In the Constitutional war, the un-proxy war they don’t want to fight, Westminster Government has neither power nor legitimacy.
Scottish Democracy is CAPTURED. It speaks through a UK microphone. It’s no more to be relied upon than a Prisoner of War telling us how well he’s been treated. Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t. You simply cannot know.
Scotland must assemble itself OUTSIDE the umbrella of any UK Institution, and to my knowledge, only SALVO is proposing this.
You either see this, or you don’t.
So when is the snp going to change their colours from yellow and black to RED and black? That sleekit hepburn can go take a running jump, preferably off the Salisbury Crags along with the rest of the nasty party. Never again will I vote for them.
When Pete Wishart resigns, we will know for sure, the hand brake is off, aboard the SNP bus. The party, truly over!
Complete and utter self destruction!
Jamie Hepburn coming out and self-identifies as Judas Hepburn.
Next scam: proposal for Indy ref with devo-max option.
I’d like to nominate Tawdry Hepburn for best performance in a unionist revival.
Not sure (polls maybe) why folks think labour are a shoe in for power. I would not vote for them or any party who voted to pass the GRA bill, or who have gotten behind any policy that removes fossil fuels from our energy strategy at this point in time. I’m hoping a good Independent candidate who can act on their own will without getting behind the party manifesto enters the arena in my area come election time.
I wonder if Alistair jack’s name was removed from the list or it turned out it was never on the list as promised that caused the story to be circulated that he will get a peerage at a later date.
A story to avoid embarrassment of being seen
If there isn’t an Alba or an SSP candidate standing in my constituency at the next election, I won’t be voting. The SNP is now basically just a scam on indy supporters, designed to keep the careeerists on the gravy train. The Nu SNP don’t actually want independence but they need to keep up the pretence to keep the scam going. When will genuine Indy supporting SNP members (if there any left) wake up and kick the grifters out? Or is it too late for that? I’m starting to think that the corruption has gone so far that a complete electoral wipeout is needed to root it out.
@Den 9:16
Labour are a shoo-in for power for the same reason they were a shoo-in for power in 1997. It’s their turn.
No need to over complicate things.
Those who are interested in political detail make a big mistake when they assume their interest is shared by the wider population. Just as those struggling with low incomes and no assets, who have little to lose in a fundamental upheaval in society, fail to understand that those further up, with maybes, jobs, savings, property, are loathe to rock the boat and perhaps lose everything.
And that translates into the playing safe spinning of the merry-go-round, where one set of establishment troughers get turfed out so that a different set can get in a few year’s troughing.
@Breeks that was why I joined Alba.
I want to have input into who’s selected to stand.
There will already be plants in place.
Maximum vigilance is needed to weed out the troughers
Just watched Humza give a cringe worthy toe curling interview with Kunesberg.
Oh dear it sounded like Nicola is still in charge.
No deal with other parties, no deal with conservatives only a gold standard referendum. Even Kunesberg was shocked, when she said but there’s never going to be another referendum and he rambled on regardless.
Nobody with any awareness could vote for these muppets
John Main, encapsulated briefly and succinctly.
Screaming and shouting stupid slogans like “Colonialism” will get us nowhere and as Richard Thompson points out “Can’t hide from the turning of the tide”.
A new independence movement must be constructed containing people who understand the problems facing us today and are not mired in pointless navel gazing on the wrongs of our ancestors.
Den says:
11 June, 2023 at 9:16 am
Not sure (polls maybe) why folks think labour are a shoe in for power.
Labour may not be a ” shoe-in ” , but it’s highly probable they’ll be allowed in – if only through voter fatigue – in an attempt to sustain the illusion we live in a Democracy ; given the Tweedledee/Tweedledumb nature of the * choice * , never was that illusion so egregious ; and also to leave the feeble Pink Tories to deal with the legacy of irreversible decline of the U.K the Blue Tories will bequeath them . A legacy in which Blair’s New Labour played a significant part , let’s not forget
However , a Labour * victory * is by no means guaranteed – nothing is in this Demockracy , other than that whatever collection of hollow men/women is in power will put the interests of the few before those of the many .
Labour’s last chance of ACTUALLY doing the reverse of that – which they , laughably , still claim to be intending , died with the political assassination of Jeremy Corbyn .
Perversely ( maybe ) I’m kinda looking forward to see what seething cauldrons of idiocy will emerge from Nu s.n.P H.Q if their plan to align with Nu * Labour * collapses if the latter fail to * win * . Actually , ditto if Labour do * win * . Either way , all that’s on the menu is boiled tripe n carrots *
* if carrots are unavailable due to over-consumption , neeps will do just as well
“Not sure (polls maybe) why folks think labour are a shoe in for power”
At UK level, personally I do not think they are. I am convinced the tories will pull out a last minute campaign like they did in 2015 to capitalise on the “capitulation” of labour to the SNP and stop English voters casting a vote for Labour.
Continuity candidate Yousaf already stated quite categorically he would not cut a deal with the tories even for a referendum, so if the tories win, then he would not have to bother finding more excuses.
But by making the SNP unelectable, process which the political fraud Sturgeon started with her GRR crap and the ferry fiasco, they will drive up the number of labour MP seats from Scotland and reduce the number of anti-union MP seats, which, in my view, is what they are really after and what they have been pursuing all along since 19 September 2014.
They need this to implement some form of enhanced devolution as an alternative to independence and then claim it is supported by a majority in Scotland even when it is not.
The SNP have become Labour’s minions. What that “independence” minister is doing, which is something they already attempted about a year ago but failed spectacularly, is to soften the blow and peddling the option of “Devo Max” acceptable. They are also helping to establish a vehicle to deliver it so it can be disguised as “democratic”. In this instance, it is a three option ballot, with the hope it will divide the yes vote.
It all points to a deal having already been made by the SNP with the powers that be to put us back in the box with a few more crumbs of useless devolution. Dangling fake power in front of our noses. It very much looks like since Sturgeon took over, the SNP has been just working to find the right time for its implementation.
It appears that what Sturgeon was doing was containing the yes vote by starving it politically to stop it moving forward. The SNP vote until now was driven by the positive yes campaign in 2014, by the betrayal of the vow, brexit and Mr Salmond’s government. This is why these SNP betrayers never prepared a proper pro-indy campaign. If the support for independence becomes consistently above 50% and, more importantly, it is seen by the people of Scotland to be consistently above 50%, any idea of shutting us up with more devolution will be a non-starter.
This is also the reason why they are deliberately making the SnP unelectable and presenting the option of independence as unachievable: they are desperately trying to stop the momentum of yes to contain it. As there is a delay between political action and the voters catching up with it, expect the SNP to be trashed not only in 2024 but also in the next Holyrood election. In my view all this was carefully calculated.
The SNP under Sturgeon is just a big fat con which has been consistently working against Scotland all along.
Seeing how much effort they are all putting to present the option of independence as unachievable, we should shout even louder and demand it with even more intensisty.
They can stick their devo max up where the sun does not shine.
Independence or nothing.
Given what will happen to the SNP at the next election and given that the Rev says we shall have a Lab/SNP government as a result, are we still keen on the Rev and Mr Wishart’s idea that every election should be an “independence referendum”?
The Claim of Right. Just wondering how many countries, the public has the right, to sack their government, mid-term?
General Election, a poor man’s Claim of Right?
The poor man version, is the best Scotland can hope for.
Imagine Salvo managed to deliver. Democracy across the globe, would face meltdown, in vain attempt to deliver the same ultimate power to the public.
Nah. The existing delusion of democracy, has us all, by the balls!
In any event, SNP, has no balls!
Labour will not demand that the SNP “abandon all pursuit of Indy”.
To save the face of the SNP they will I think merely ask for it to be “parked” for an agreed time period.
It amounts to the same thing but enables the SNP to approach their supporters with a plausible case for postponement of Indy moves.
Fortunately Wings Over Scotland has been able to set the truth free for all these years.
Obla dee Obla da,etc etc…
very good comment’s from Mia in particular,recently!
But your still not THERE, yet…PEOPLE, not the kind of PEOPLE…who
who have the bloody cheek to put themselves forward as reprisentatives of a nation…We’ve seen what they are…and they are
mostly SHITES!
The PEOPLE of Scotland have to do this,
Without the mostly, SHITES,,,
Everyone has been telling you that,…even the shites!
For years!
But your still not there yet!
Independence,Independence,Indepedence…or Fu*k off you SHITE!
And, Dr jim,on wee ginger dug…u may be 74 year’s old,and quite smart…But U are wrong, and possibly as ur time is running out
You are loathe to admit you’ve been taken for a fool!
We all have!…wake up and smell the Sh…Coffee!
TIME?…it get’s us all!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE6YAjFucdQ
Am I still keen on idea that every election should be an “independence referendum”? Duuuh! And unless my “Yes candidate” is ISP or ALBA, I’ll be voting Tory
Not voting runs the risk of my current SNP councilor, MP and MSP all remaining in their job.
Not voting also runs the risk of Labour or Liberals getting in. Being slightly left of center masel wie a basic understanding of biology and an aversion to paedophobia, that’s too big a risk.
Voting Tory increase the chance of me sending a sharply pointed message to NuSNP; heres your reward for years of carrots.
Voting Tory puts the kibosh on these wankers getting together to decide what democracy means.
As an ex-member of the Labour party, I Never thought Id be grateful to the Tories for being in 2nd place in my constituency. What a bluidy time tae be alive when a’hings literally gone erse fir tits!
Times article today suggesting the civil service in Scotland is far from up to snuff. (OK all material from that source is liberally salted) but something resonates here.
Of course there is that long period with Lesley Evans was at the helm and everyone knows where that went. Sturgeon has to take a huge share of serial failures. She clearly had little control over her administration except in petty personality ways. One senses that she operated in a world of point scoring gossip and opportunistic SPADDY chum types.
For instance the ferry fiasco is something that would not have occurred with a decent civil service with an understanding of the financial and industrial/technical issues. Ultimately the fault is political as I rather suspect the intricacies of largish engineering projects was not her kind of thing.
Of course there is much scope for speculation with a conspiracy twist, of WM connivance, but in my view all can be explained by old fashioned cock-up and incompetence and the lamentable absence of political control by Sturgeon, who was essentially hopelessly out of her depth intellectually and strategically, but whose presentational/ juggling skills kept her afloat.
Independence will grow out of the ability to deliver outcomes and confidence that the upheavals of independence could be managed by the administration. Unfortunately Scotgov continues in it casual amateurish ways under the established Sturgeonist sloppy modes of operation. ie a gossipy political culture and avoidance of the hard stuff.
Rev: It will blow up in their smug, sanctimonious, rainbow wee faces soon enough. Despair ye not.
Anonymoose: a good number of those who shifted to SNP from Labour were actually in support of independence, but, probably not in the way that most existing SNP members were. Most of those who moved over came from the hard left wing of Labour and Labour was glad to see the back of them. It was an added bonus for Labour that they decided to parasitize the SNP. Parasites will often kill their host before departing for pastures new. I would bet my hat on a lot of them moving back to Labour if there was a coalition. We need to understand that power is what they are after: just like those parasitical wasps that take over the brain of their host to provide a tasty meal for their emerging young. Which is why they are trying very hard to indoctrinate our children. Get them while they’re young.
Rev: a potential item of news for you. In Elgin (rural setting) a local TEACHER called Campbell (aka Lossie Mouth) carried out a propaganda and indoctrination exercise in the form of a drag queen story hour, in the library, for children under six years of age. It is reported in The National that it was a great success, with a 100 attending. The name is rather interesting for a teacher of children. Lossie is the river that runs through Elgin and other parts of Moray. Mouth? The mouth of the Lossie? Perhaps. These cheeky chaps use sexual terms and innuendo that are over the heads of the kids. The same parents would scream in horror if a paedophile approached their youngsters, but someone reading ambiguous stories to them is just dandy and. bit of fun. The only person to speak out about this has been Douglas Ross, Tory. I would never even contemplate voting Tory, but, in this instance, the man is right to object, in my opinion. Have people’s brains been parasitized? Is the rainbow wasp directing operations and waiting for its (indoctrinated and propagandized) young to hatch?
Devo Max = Devo Sack – For every single SNP trougher.
If that’s their stance then we, the indy public, have eff-all to lose. One way or another we’re not getting indy any time soon due to Sturgeon, Murrell, Yousaf & Co. Self-serving scum! We, the indy public, want indy. The clue’s in the name. We didn’t vote for self-serving appeasers. We can remove them as fast as we elected them. And it’s time we demonstrated that. Pick up your P45’s.
This makes practical sense IMO. The reason Indy lost the vote last time was due to the size of the change/fear for many people. It’s not ideal, I’d much rather have Indy but this makes the transition to Indy a lot easier in future.
It’s the same argument down south with Labour. It’s not great but it moves in the right direction.
” A new independence movement must be constructed containing people who understand the problems facing us today and are not mired in pointless navel gazing on the wrongs of our ancestors. ”
A * mummy * speaks .
And yet , and yet , there’s the Tories attempting to use Henry V111 Powers to bypass Parliament .
Ah ! I see , reference to * old * things is only irrelevant when Scottish people reference them .
When English people do so it’s perfectly legit . Cool . Good to know that .
ps Aky , deal with that unsightly hard-on you – STILL – have for nice wee Neo Liberal , Independence , aye , ” later ” Kate Forbes . It’s embarrassing ; don’t you know children read this blog ? Some even comment BTL .
The ” problems facing us today ” are , in essence , the same ones we faced * then * . How can we get to a position where those at the top are unable to shit on those under them ?
In Scotland’s case , how can we regain our autonomy , that was sold-out from under us , without our consent and to our great disadvantage 300 (very) odd years ago and harms us to this day ?
Granted , for a variety of reasons , K Forbes would have been a better choice than resident buffoon H Yousaf ( fck , a monkey with learning difficulties would have been ) . Mounting a committed FIGHT to achieve Independence is not one of them . Her cupboard was/is just as crammed with * tomorrow’s * jam as the rest of the Sturgeon-era fainthearts .
Robert Hughes: it is excessively painful for all of us to watch this twisting and turning in an effort to evade its fate. The SNP has been paratisized from 2014 onwards. The high heid yins now think that bringing in ‘progressive’ policies which are actually regressive i nature is the way forward, not independence. Devo-Max will not be acceptable to Westminster and the British State either because it involves fiscal autonomy. Ergo, you are quite correct: the SNP now has to go, and soon. Certainly, from 2015, I could not really see any other way, although hope being what it is, I thought they might hold a coup from within. Perhaps they will yet, but I doubt it now. The likes of Joanna Cherry Ash Regan, Kate Forbes, Angus Brendan, Fergus Ewing, et al, have not moved an iota. Were they to move over the ALBA and offer their backing to Alex Salmond, we might well be on our way, but ALBA, too, needs to take a different tack to that of the SNP and become even more radical in its choice of path/s.
As in early 20th century Ireland, there will be no mass independence movement. We need to accept that and do what needs to be done – and it is not asking for a S30 referendum. We can hold a ratifying referendum after independence – which needs to have the majority backing of the Scottish people. No 60%. The Unionists ruled on less than 60% and far fewer than 60% now support the Union. If there is to be no united front with the SNP, we need to achieve it without them. ALBA should be careful now, though, as people leave the sinking ship. The power-hungry hard left have no scruples and will move across to paratisize it, too, if it drops its guard. Remember the euphoria when thousands joined the SNP after 2014? Look how that turned out. We must all be vigilant and fight these totalitarians.
It’s not entirely a simple case of: the SNP has become a devolutionist party. It’s much more the case that powerful interests, as an existential imperative, are absolutely determined that Scotland must never become independent.
Bending the SNP to this point of view and securing Scotland’s energy-resources has now been achieved by those same powerful interests. The milch-cow appears to have been corralled, even if it did take the ruinous corruption of our political-class and our key-institutions to achieve that end.
Please don’t imagine, for a moment, that all of this was the work of a handful-of third-rate political intriguers in Edinburgh. Not without first considering Scotland’s geopolitical/strategical importance and its abundant energy resources.
As long as Jamie Hepburn and his handsome wife keep coining it in from us mug taxpayers who work for a living, that’s all that matters.
You wouldn’t hire an SNP ‘minister’ (lol) to clean your toilet, because they’d fuck that up too. But we’ve got them making our laws.
Lord help us.
Problem is people will still vote for SNP because they are better than the Tories and other such nonsense.
The SNP need to spend time in opposition to clear about the carpetbaggers and to get their soul back so they can fight for the goal they were created for.
akenaton @ 10:24 am
“Screaming and shouting stupid slogans like “Colonialism” will get us nowhere”
This type of perspective comes from those who persistently claim Scots are in some form of ‘partnership’ with England? Like as in ‘better together’.
Denial of oppression, which you advocate, is a vital part of the colonial ‘condition’. Denial is what enables colonialism to continue. If you deny colonialism exists, you will also deny you are an oppressed people.
And the reverse of this is, once a people finally accept they have been subject to colonial rule and procedures, the Imperial cultural hoax is no longer effective.
This is why it is essential that a people made subordinate and subaltern are clear about what independence really means (i.e. decolonization) and why it is necessary (i.e. liberation from oppression).
https://salvo-cor.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/THEORETICAL+CASE+FOR+SCOTTISH+INDEPENDENCE.pdf
https://archive.is/O5MKz
Somehow, “hypocrisy” doesn’t seem a big enough word for this crap.
The SNP are a waste of space, a party with no leadership nor direction.
They seem to operate now at the whims of every woke commentor within the inner circle.
Alba is the only hope and way to independence so I hope more of the decent folk left in SNP leave now.
The SNP are a waste of space, a party with no leadership nor direction.
They seem to operate now at the whims of every woke commentator within the inner circle.
Alba is the only hope and way to independence so I hope more of the decent folk left in SNP leave now.
@Antoine 11:49. Exactly. We’ll never see the hand that moves the chess pieces in this. It’s not that these interests are invulnerable, Alex Salmond demonstrated that, and is still paying the price. But it hurts my heart to see the same mouthbreathing self serving balloons that slow blinked their way through the glory days of Scottish Labour used as a means of once again keeping us in our geopolitical place.
Pacman – The SNP need to spend time in opposition to clear about the carpetbaggers
Jamie Hepburn and Humza have been carpetbagging for 20 years plus now, and it’s worked brilliantly for them. If they weren’t ruining our country through politics, they’d be earning £28K a year in a call centre somewhere. The vast, overwhelming majority of SNP officials are carpetbaggers – so they’re going nowhere, because it’s their party and they run it.
Incidentally, much as I love Alex Salmond, his judgment of people is even worse than Trump’s. Alex Salmond personally mentored, encouraged and promoted most of the sleekit people who destroyed the SNP and tried to imprison him.
It may be that our ongoing socioeconomic decline makes it impossible for the political system not to be overrun by useless grifters. It’s not as if any of the other parties care about Scottish people either.
Does anybody in power care about Scots, or want to do things for the benefit of Scotland? I can’t think of anyone.
Devo max may well be a non-runner.
On the face of it, Devo max does seem to have support, polling at (iirc) between 20 and 25% of support. Not bad for the starting point in a three horse race.
There is no settled idea of what Devo max would be.
If it does not include control of foreign affairs then Brexit remains and regaining access to the Single Market is not in Scottish hands.
If Devo max does not include control of the economy and welfare then Scotland’s ability to address inequalities and take a different road than neoliberalism will not be there.
The UK has had more than 40 years of deeply entrenched class attacks on the poor, racism, political and institutional corruption. That won’t end soon.
Devo max will not be popular,imo.
Alf Baird still banging on about Scotland being colonised. It’s a palpable nonsense, and gains nothing.
The secret to success is being positive, planning in detail, and working hard for a set of specific milestones that turn into a pathway and a road. Not inventing perceived injustices and constantly moaning about history.
@Alf Baird 12:49
The simple and effective counter to “better together” is to demonstrate beyond doubt “better apart”.
AKA “show us the money”, because it drives home to every Scot how she or he will be better off under Indy. And, because so many of us are selfish, greedy bastards, show us the direct, causal link that leads to more folding in our pockets and handbags.
Most of us will settle for that. The side effect, where the purists get revenge for 1707 is great, but for most Scots, just that, a side effect.
And the wonderful ace in the hole about “show us the money”. It works like a charm on the New Scots too. Cos that’s another great stereotype of immigrants everywhere: they migrate to improve their personal circumstances. So, show them the money too, and Scotland’s inexorable demographic destiny against Indy is countered.
Hasn’t the SNP learnt their lesson by paddle green policies, they now want to go into bed with the labour party under Starmer, that won’t arouse anyone.
I know Independence is the subject of today and every day for us as it is with me. Devo-Madmax will not only destroy independence but also getting back into the EU, removing Nukes from Scottish soil, the list goes on and on.
The SNP was a Broadchurch of people all wanting different options that would ultimately be delivered with Independence.
If the SNP can’t stand up for what it believed since it was founded on 7 April 1934 that being Independence and later the removal of nuclear weapon and full membership of the EU then I see only one benefactor in all of this the RedTories.
Actress Marianna Palka has said she handing in her membership of the SNP and joining Alba, welcome on board its great to have you.
Alba Party for me, fuck the Britnat SNP.
Thanks to all those whom replied yesterday to my comments,
I am often called away to see to family matters and wished I could continue my conversation.
However it is what it is with family matters and health issues.
Thanks to all for taking the time to respond,
Re the devo max issue,
Even if the Snp and labour succeeded in their aims, How valid is it in Scotland?
Passing this through a Colonial government does not make it Scottish law but a law imported to Scotland.
The main controversial argument over the Scotland Act and colonial laws for Scotland, is definately questionable while there is extinguished Scottish parliament from the treaty,
Do we accept the Colonial government and its imposed foreign laws on Scots or do we recognise that Scotland should have its own government, in its own Country, created from Scottish legislation?
The conflict arises when Scots wish to remain Colonised,
while not in a treaty of parliamentary union with the Westminster parliament with England,
Not to many comments or weeks past, I suggested that if many Scottish independence groups recognised it was in a fallacious treaty with Westminster, knowing that unionists and their media often read WingsOver Scotland,
It would not be long before the unionists would come back with alternative suggestions to quell the knowledge and to stop the news spreading that Scots had discovered there never had been a Union between Scotland and England, and the treaty had not proceeded once the Scottish parliament was extinguished.
I thought we would be offered devo max, possibly another rigged referendum, or Federalisation.
And here we are,
New considerations from unionists to offer and bind the Scots, rather than the Scots simply just legally walking away,
I will not dance around saying I told you so, ” yet” I will wait until more Scots realise they are not in a treaty of union, and the unionists offer more an more enticements and bribes,
They read Wings, they know some of us are now awake to the reality of a fallacious treaty of union. and that we recognise the lack of legality concerning the Colonial devolved government.
They will suggest many options for Scotland and Scots,
Because “it is better than where they are now”
Especially with independence support at 53% and Scots waking up.
Scot Abroad,
Your past makes your future.
And if the past was a lie?
Then here in Scotland we have a brand new future and many possible paths and roads to travel.
Many years from now (hopefully), when the planet finally becomes uninhabitable, the last two forms of life still scurrying around will be cockroaches feeding on what’s left and SNP politicians waiting for a referendum.
The Windrush scandal is perhaps a good example of colonialism in the UK. The kind of racism that lies behind such action shows the acts of the past being reflected in everyday life today, does it not?
If it is true that an English government’s behaviour towards English citizens chimes with past colonial behaviour, why should one not expect to see colonialism also in Scotland and Northern Ireland?
At last Nicola has been nicked.
I hope they have prepared their list of questions well.
So, I was playing with Pathos a wee bit last night when I replied to a comment by @James Che with this subtle effort:
In Rhetoric, Aristotle describes three artistic modes of persuasion, ethos, logos, and pathos.
Pathos can be described as awakening emotion in the audience in an attempt to induce them to make the judgment desired by the speaker.
Pathos is basically a rhetorical appeal to an audience’s emotions. And it can be very, very powerful.
It can also be a low-down dirty trick of a rhetorical device – pretty much akin to guilt-tripping – if used clumsily.
Well, my pathos play didn’t elicit much of a response from the ‘audience’. I even threw in a faux farewell:
I have to say I was pretty disappointed at the lack of emotional support.
@Brian Doonthetoon came to my rescue with a message of support exhorting me to be resilient in what looks like an unwinnable ‘fight’ against Scotland’s oppressive coloniser.
Thank you, @Brian Doonthetoon, you are obviously a kind and sensitive and intelligent soul.
As for the rest of you…what can I say? Heartless is the first word that comes to mind.
So, Pathos. It’s the power of love.
Or hate, or sadness, or happiness, or…whatever you want to make your audience feel…if you’re good enough at it. Obviously I’m not – yet.
Those ancients, whit were they like, eh?
Oh, and there’s still plenty to say about colonialism, by the way. Scroll on by if you don’t want to listen – you have the power.
Sky News reporting that Nicola Sturgeon is under arrest.
Nikla has been arrested
“Nicola Sturgeon in custody after being arrested in connection with SNP investigation”!
She/her under arrest https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65871857
Sic a parcel o ("Tractor" - Ed)s in a nation.
Nick has been nicked. I saw she passed her theory test. I wonder if it was to drive the luxury £100,000 motor home with the missing 600K.
Please all, don’t feed the A scot, A broad troll. Let him wither on the vine
If she gets jailed, how will Humza receive his instructions now?
John H. says:
11 June, 2023 at 2:55 pm
“If she gets jailed, how will Humza receive his instructions now?”
They have these things called phones, you may have heard of them?
Humza couldn’t cope with more than one instruction/task a week anyway.
May we live in interesting times.
No one charged yet of course.
I sincerely hope that Polis.Scot have secured enough on her (before taking this action) to keep the bars firmly shut.
Don’t get too excited folks.
This is Scotland…
Our Police and Judiciary have a certain aroma all of their own.
Just ask Craig Murray.
One thing I am certain about is the need for resistance against the three threats to democracy and sovereignty wherever you bide in these isles. Firstly the climate control freak agenda of net zero. This is nothing more than a plan for planetary control by a global political class. We should call for sustainable exploitation of carbon with mitigation through technology. Secondly the scourge of identity politics which is just another way of asserting the power of elites and shielding from criticism some of the most retrograde and anti-human currents of our time such as Critical Race Theory and trans humanism. Thirdly we need to resist the public health police states being enabled by the corrupt and incompetent WHO. These global forces threaten our very humanity under the cloak of protecting it. We need a string and fearless libertarian strain in Scottish politics and we need to stop debilitating ourselves by crying colonialism at every turn. These positions should inoculate a Scottish Independence movement from the usual grifters, and challenging all of them is popular with many people as political scientist Matt Goodwin points out. The arrest of Sturgeon and the civil war in the Tory party are two great opportunities for Alba but if we don’t ramp up the independence of thought we will become just another trougher caravan.
North Code.
Aww I have full empathy with you’re feelings of despondency, with pathos,
I too was once in your shoes,
It takes wee while to get over the emotions involved, however personally it has now turned to rage at politicians fake promises that put party before the people across the UK,
It also turned to denial that this is not how it is meant to be,
Then it turned to, if they lie to us now, what lies have they told us in the past?
Then it turned to researching that subjects, from the Corporation body of devolved Scottish government to the bank of England and Wales, but not Scotland, to the treaty of the union before and its aftermath.
Wholla,
The lie of the fallacious treaty of union.
These are stages of emotions that started in pathos, and went through a colourful range emotions.
That altered my perspective on a accessible open door for Scotland,
Therefore the denial of the state of pathos under Colonialism.
It is knowledge that set us free.
But I linger with you awhile, full of empathy and understanding.
After advising the Holyrood Inquiry into the A Salmond debacle some 50 times that, “She had no recollection” or that “She did not at this time recall” does anyone seriously expect Ms Sturgeon to admit anything whatsoever.
Remembering that the “independent” Crown Office reportedly sat on a search warrant for a fortnight before authorising a search of chez Murrell, it seems unlikely that there will be too much in the way of evidence presented.
One can only hope that Messrs Salmond and Murray can derive some personal satisfaction from present events.
Obviously Devo Max would come with less money from the Union. The SNP have made such a mess of Scotland over the last 16 years, generously funded by the Union which tops up Scotland’s tax take. More powers will bring even more chaos, and the people who vote them in need to pay in full. Only fair.Maybe that would be a catalyst for full indy, or maybe not.
John Main @ 1:49 pm
“AKA “show us the money””
We’ve been through this afore but here goes again.
Folks vote in line with the values they hold, not necessarily for what might be in their best interests, far less whenever a politician promises they might be better off.
In a colonial society the cultural assimilation process infuses the colonized group with the colonizer’s values. Here it tends to be ‘only the values of the colonizer that are sovereign’ (Memmi). In addition, a people suffering from high levels of ‘Appropriated Racial Oppression’ (e.g. cultural cringe) may also be inclined to reject their liberty/independence.
With colonialism, an oppressed people are therefore dealing with a psychological condition. Political promises of a few dollars more either way are unlikely to shift that dial.
Liberty is of course priceless and those who seek to place a monetary value on it rather miss the point and also misunderstand the nature of ‘the colonial balance sheet’. There is nevertheless a price that is often paid to undermine ‘a peoples’ liberty, remembering that ‘colonialism is a co-operative venture’ with native elites, as Scots discovered in 1707 and ever since under the continued ‘union’ hoax.
@James Che 3:27pm
Thanks, James. You are a true gentleman.
I realise now that I was ‘awakened’ a long, long time ago. I just didn’t know how to explain my ‘insomnolence’.
But thanks to folk like yourself and Alf Baird, my understanding of what I was woken up to is much, much clearer than it was.
And yes, sometimes our oppressor seems unbeatable and it can be disheartening. But it only seems that way, because once you see it for what it is, it’s tricks have no more power over you.
This apposite quote from the movie, ‘The Usual Suspects’:
Another post vanished into the ether. Ah well, truly they don’t like it up ‘em. If you’re on-side you can post all sorts of abuse and nonsense but if you’re a doubter discussion is limited. The Rev’s privilege, fair enough. Maybe it was the YouTube link, ‘Winnie Ewing’s Speech to the reconvened Scottish Parliament, 1999’ too.
Alf Baird” at 4:30 pm.
“ In a colonial society the cultural assimilation process infuses the colonized group with the colonizer’s values. Here it tends to be ‘only the values of the colonizer that are sovereign’ “
What values do Scots (not just the independence-obsessed minority) hold that differ from the rest of the Union’s population?
Watching snippets about U.K. politics it’s quite terrifying the numbers in England who still demand Boris as PM.
A pathological liar who has been sacked multiple times for lying inside and outside of politics.
A man who has made 5 different women pregnant and denies other women’s claims of affairs
while having photos in his home and having been seen out and about with them.
A petulant child who must not be caught out or reprimanded or it is the accuser that is guilty
I’ve seen videos of Boris at Downing St Covid Parties, pictures from different parties,
statements from those fined for being at the Parties were they state Boris was present.
We also know that large quantise of booze were taken into No 10 in a suitcase.
Now who lives there and be the only source of borrowing a suitcase.
An intricate puzzle the Met Police seem unable to solve.
Oh and do the police officers at the gate have no suspicion of a package the size of a suitcase being taken in there. Shouldn’t it have been search in case it had some other than a party that could go with a bang.
Boris did admit after winning Brexit that the £350 Million per week was a fake and it wouldn’t be going to the NHS anyway.
Boris lied at the DUP conference about about not having a border down the Irish Sea just before he put one there.
He has now given more than everything asked for by the Australian government in a trade misdeal.
Double digit inflation, basic food costs up 40%, crippled economy, 13th recent rise in interest rates pending and £21 billion wasted by the Tories.
This is what England wants more of. FFS
Hi James Jones.
If you don’t do the following, your YouTube comment just disappears.
If you’re pasting a Youtube link into a comment, you delete EVERYTHING to the left of “www”.
Wordpress adds the “https://” automatically.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeP8jdBzpgU
After the “watch?v=oeP8jdBzpgU”, you may have something like “&t=86s”. This means you have paused the video 86 seconds in. Everything after and including the “&” should be deleted as well, so the video starts at the beginning when someone clicks on the link.
Effigy
He’s behind you!!!
Haha, just kidding, you’re grand, the Black Boris will never take you.
True Scots with a knowledge of Scots history and folk culture will see what I just did there.
Brian Doonthetoon,
Helpful, thanks.
Maybe The Rev doesn’t hate me after all.
Brian Doonthetoon at 6:30 pm.
Helpful, thank you.
James Jones @ 5:53 pm
“What values do Scots (not just the independence-obsessed minority) hold that differ from the rest of the Union’s population?”
A propensity for war and conflicts with other peoples would seem a significant values differentiator between Imperial Britain and an independent Scotland.
Since Scots elites were duped and bribed into the hoax of a UK ‘union’, British Imperial forces (or forces with a ‘British’ mandate) have invaded, had some control over or fought conflicts in 171 of the world’s 193 countries that are currently UN member states, or nine out of ten of all countries.
Since the end of the Second World War, Britain has dragged Scotland into combat a further 80 times in 47 countries, in episodes ranging from brutal colonial wars and covert operations to efforts to remove regimes or prop up favoured governments and to deter civil unrest.
Important to note that since its independence the Irish state has had 100 years of peace.
I wonder if any legal or constabulary posters can tell the difference between helping police with their enquiries for a few hours and be arrested for a few hours without charge.
One group of politicians being any-Tory doesn’t cut it.
Tip for the police- Sturgeon Lives with Murrell.
Take the 2 in using one vehicle and leave the other 21 vehicles at their home to put up the murder scene tent and look for shoe boxes full of notes among the pansies.
Can anyone else advise how many arrests or politicians questioned regarding £21 Billion
gone up the creek.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtOexDKo4If/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==
I asked, ‘What values do Scots (not just the independence-obsessed minority) hold that differ from the rest of the Union’s population?’
Alf Baird replied 7:01 pm,
“A propensity for war and conflicts with other peoples would seem a significant values differentiator between Imperial Britain and an independent Scotland.“
You know I meant Scots and Britons as individuals. The anti-war thing is just a way to dodge the question unless you really think the rest of the Union is full of war-mongers, which would be a silly idea.
@Alf Baird
100 years of peace?
Wow.
Looks like we have a new definition of “peace” on our hands.
James Jones @ 7:36 pm
“The anti-war thing is just a way to dodge the question unless you really think the rest of the Union is full of war-mongers”
Tell us which of the 80 areas of combat in 47 countries an independent Scotland would have considered it necessary to pursue since the end of WWII, and why?
John Main @ 7:41 pm
“100 years of peace? WoW”
Yes indeed, “Wow”. Since independence the ‘Irish state’ has had 100 years of peace.
In stark contrast, over the same period Imperial Britain has dragged Scotland into approx. 100 conflicts in more than 50 countries, including in the north of the island of Ireland.
That’s just more distraction and assumes the British public wanted war, which is nonsense. Now, the question was, what values do Scots (not just the independence-obsessed minority) hold that differ from the rest of the Union’s population?
“what values do Scots…”
What exactly does “having different or the same values” got to do with Independence?
How different do you think the values of the Spanish, Italians, Portuguese or French are? Not that different. That does not mean that one of the countries has the right to control the assets, land, territorial waters and the politics of the other three and for its own benefit.
I am sure the values of the English people are not that different to the values of the people in USA. That does not give USA the right to take control of England’s assets for its own benefit, the control of its land or the control of its politics. The same applies to Scotland with relation to England.
Wanting to take control over the assets of your own country for the benefit of your country rather than your neighbour, and wanting to control the politics of your country, rather than having your neighbour country deciding what politics you should have, what trade agreements you should enter, what wars you should be dragged to, what quality your food must have and what parasites you have to pay a fee for having a siesta in the HoLs, has nothing to do with values and all to do with wanting autonomy to make your own decisions.
Values do not even enter the equation. This is about taking back Scotland to its former status of sovereign state because that is what its native population wants. And that is the end of the matter. The people of Scotland does not have to justify what they want to ANYBODY other than themselves. Scotland is a country, not England’s property or is little sibbling.
By the way, “the rest of the Union” is the Kingdom of England. Why are you so reluctant to not mentioning England?
The Treaty of Union 1706 has only TWO signatories: the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland. It is a bipartite union between two sovereign and equally independent states.
Because this union is bipartite, should one of the partners decide to revoke the treaty, the other partner returns to its former sovereign status as well. So if Scotland ends the treaty of union, there isn’t a “rest of the union” left. What is left is the Kingdom of England.
James Jones @ 8:48 pm
“That’s just more distraction”
Indeed, you distract because you are unable to answer a question like: “Tell us which of the 80 areas of combat in 47 countries an independent Scotland would have considered it necessary to pursue since the end of WWII, and why?”
In a colonial society all we need to know about ‘values’ is that: “The crushing of the colonized is included among the colonizer’s values. As soon as the colonized adopts those values, he similarly adopts his own condemnation” (Albert Memmi)
“That’s just more distraction and assumes the British public wanted war, which is nonsense”
If the people of England, who elects the members of the UK cabinet and about 90% of the UK parliament, does not want war, who is dragging us to those wars, why, under which pretext and under whose authority?
The average Scot doesn’t want to invade or colonise any other nation.
Scots are not fascists who think they are elite or superior.
As such Scots haven’t given the Tories a majority in 70 years.
Scot are liked more than the English abroad
Scots want to be Europeans.
Scots can see right through Boris and his cohorts.
@Alf Baird
I’m re-reading your book, Doun-Hauden, at a slower pace than my first reading of it.
And, because I find it an interesting subject, I’ve been reading a little more about colonialism in general. Mostly online so not the best source, but all I have at the moment.
Now, I could be completely wrong about this, but it occurred to me that a major difference between coloniser and colonised is that while colonisers seems to have developed more earth-bound and materialistic cultures, the colonised appear to embrace cultures that are more spiritual in nature.
This view is pure conjecture on my part and might have no merit at all when held up against proper research carried out by academics studying this area of human behaviour.
However, I wonder if, in your view, there might be any truth to it.
Alf Baird
I admire your doughty efforts to re-write history, and who knows, they may even succeed.
If you can pull off the “Scotland as colony” trope, then indeed, puir wee Scotland will indeed have been pulled into all those wars “against her will”.
Just as with the EU referendum, if you ignore the wording on the question, and pretend the UK is not a thing, then you can convince yourself that Scotland was “dragged from the EU against her will”.
The latter fiction has gained widespread traction, so who knows, maybes the former one will too.
For reasons that are obvious to me, you flatly refuse to acknowledge Scots disproportionate contribution to the expansionist, militaristic, imperialist empire building that added places such as Canada, Australia, India, etc. not to mention the breakaway but still ardently expansionist and exploitative USA.
There are only a few great diaspora in the world, and the Scottish diaspora is one of them.
I am not buying the idea that it was the English that made us do it. Nor am I buying the idea that as the age of the British Empire waned, all of the inevitable skirmishes, police actions, violent rebellions, involving expat Scots in the lines of fire, had no support from their relatives back home in Scotland.
More distraction, but if that’s all you’ve got let me go along with it for a while. Apart from a supposed disinclination to fighting, how does Scottish culture differ significantly from the culture of the people of England, Northern Ireland and Wales, because Alf’s nonsensical idea of ‘colonisation’ assumes the Union has brought such a change.
Effijy @ 9:42 pm
“The average Scot doesn’t want to invade or colonise any other nation.”
Exactly!
English/British exceptionalism on the other hand……
@Mia 9:29
Maybes just explain how an iScotland is going to avoid all military entanglements. How we will be wealthy, with all our energy generation capacity sitting undefended, out of sight of our coast. How we will be wealthy and sparsely populated (relatively) and able to stop the millions of desperate climate refugees settling here.
Will we outsource our defence to rUK, take the current EU route of relying on the USA, or get on board with the new EU forces we keep hearing about? Will we flatly refuse to participate in any way in humanitarian campaigns, peace keeping missions, refugee evacuations, rescuing of our own citizens from holiday emergency situations?
Having a foreign policy, military alliances, a budgeted and competent armed forces, etc is part of being a first-world country. It might just be me that thinks that swapping this for toothless Indy is a bad idea, but then again, it might not.
@Alf Baird
Alf, I also wonder if the Scots, even today, are held in such high regard amongst other enlightened nations because when they ventured out across the world they sought cultural and material exchange as opposed to cultural domination and material exploitation.
Unlike say, the Spanish, or the Germans, or perhaps the French. Even the Dutch sought cultural domination and material exploitation of indigenous South Africans.
From personal experience the attitudes of locals towards me when I have been travelling in different countries have warmed significantly when they realised I was a Scot and not…American, for example.
@Effijy 9:42
I was simply going to reply “BS” but then I had another thought.
Maybes all the colonising Scots cleared out to colonise generations ago. Leaving the remnant who are lacking the colonising genes. Excluding those who still go south to colonise London, or used to use their freedom of movement to colonise the EU (and are still greetin about it).
Anyways, kudos for managing to work Boris into your latest post.
He’s behind you!!!
Haha, just my wee joke, hope you won’t have nightmares!
Oh, one last thing. If Scots are “not fascists” as you claim, but others are, that in itself is an elitist claim of superiority. What we in Scotland used to understand as a clear example of being “holier than thou”.
Man, all this Scottish cultural thinking that is second nature to me, yet seems to be a closed book to many. Makes you think, so it does.
John Main @ 9:50 pm
“if you ignore the wording on the question, and pretend the UK is not a thing, then you can convince yourself that Scotland was “dragged from the EU against her will”. The latter fiction”
Its not “fiction”. The UK is a “union”, and according to Corporal Jones its even a “partnership”. Two thirds of Scots said they wanted to remain within the EU. That decision should have been respected. It was not.
Scots were never asked if they wanted to wage Imperial combat within 170 other countries. But even if our ‘partner’ in the ‘union’ had asked us we would still have been ignored. Such outright domination of a country on decisions of war or peace or international alliances reflects a colonial relationship.
@Alf Baird
Sorry, Alf. But another thought crossed my mind.
In a world where resources are limited – although I don’t believe that resources are limited just hoarded by the fearful – it seems to me that offering to share those resources negates the need for conflict.
And in fact might well engender friendship between nation states.
Just my personal view of course.
Um… The average Briton doesn’t want to invade or colonise any other nation.
One last time, and if you can’t answer fair enough…, how does Scottish culture differ significantly from the culture of the people of England, Northern Ireland and Wales, because ‘colonisation’ assumes there is such a difference.
@Northcode 10:23
“other enlightened nations”
Do tell which other nations can claim to be as enlightened as we Scots.
See if you can shoe horn something about “English Exceptionalism” into the same post!
Actually though, I do recognise the experience of the attitude of overseas locals warming significantly when they hear the accent. Many of them can’t wait to tell me exactly where in Scotland their great granpa or whatever hailed from.
I can guess at the material exchanges that took place at the time, the colonising bastards. Land for a bullet or maybes a dose of influenza.
Anyways, don’t let me detain you. You have a myth to build and worship.
Northcode at 10:23 pm
“I also wonder if the Scots, even today, are held in such high regard amongst other enlightened nations because when they ventured out across the world they sought cultural and material exchange as opposed to cultural domination and material exploitation.”
When did this happen?
@Alf
A majority of Scots said they wanted the UK to stay in the EU. That was the question we were asked.
If they thought they were being asked if Scotland should remain in the EU, then they weren’t paying attention. It was UK in, or UK out.
The mistake you make is assuming that because you don’t like the UK, you can pretend it doesn’t exist. That leads to fatuous conclusions like it would have been possible for some parts of the UK to stay in the EU, while other parts left. That’s nonsense on stilts.
As you well know, the UK does exist. No Indy campaign can succeed by pretending the entity you are trying to escape from does not exist.
That seems only logical to me.
John Main @ 10:55 pm
“As you well know, the UK does exist.”
Not with a majority of nationalist MPs it disnae. It haesnae existed since 2015. Scotland’s EU exit was enforced against the will of the people, with a complicit SNP.
“the “Scotland as colony” trope”
Trope? It is only trope if you insist in keeping your hands over your eyes so you don’t see what is in front of your nose.
Tell me, what exactly is a representative of the crown as crown agent doing in the middle of our prosecution service?
Why there isn’t one in England?
What exactly is an “office of the crown” doing attached to our prosecution service? What business has the crown in determining who gets prosecuted in Scotland and who does not if Scotland is a democracy and allegedly the crown has only limited powers?
Why there isn’t an office of the crown in the middle of the prosecution service in England? What is the difference between Scotland and England?
Where is the secretary of state for England?
How can you even suggest Scotland is not treated as a colony when in an, allegedly, democracy you have a representative of the crown determining who gets investigated and prosecuted and who does not and when recently, this representative of the crown appears to be using their position of power to instigate political persecutions or to delay police investigations with political motives? That is not what happens in a democracy. That is what happens in a police state or in a colony.
In the case of Mr Salmond it was the crown agent who instigated the police to start the investigation on agreement with the UK civil service. So the crown in Scotland and the uk civil service, both controlled from elsewhere other than Scotland, are dictating who the police must hunt down, rather than following the right procedure in a democracy which is the police handing the information to the CPS and this deciding if to prosecute or not.
In what healthy democracy do you see that? That is what happens in a colony.
We don’t have enough information to establish this yet, but whose brainchild was using the Morove doctrine to drag Mr Salmond to a court room? Was this strategy planned before even the police investigation started or afterwards? Was this the reason why the office of the crown attached to the CPS suppressed the release of the Whatsapp messages? Who was coordinating the perjurers?
Who advised the UK civil service in Scotland not to inform their external counsel about the collusion that led to the civil case brought by Mr Salmond having to collapse? Are we expected to believe a dimwit like Evans, at the verge of retirement and with the potential to lose a rather nice pension pot, was the mastermind behind all this?
Was the reason of continuing with a case that they knew would lose just to give enough time to the moorove strategy to take form?
Using the police, the Civil SErvice and the CPS to persecute people who wants independence from the oppressor is not a sign of a democracy. It is a symptom of either a police state or a colony. What I find fascinating in all this is that this strange figure of crown agent figure appears to be always at the core of everything.
Was this figure also responsible for the delay in the investigation of the SNP finances?
I read yesterday in a unioinst rag that this crown agent will be in charge of the prosecution of this case should it go forward. Again, a representative from the crown representative, rather than the prosecution service itself, is in control of prosecution. How odd.
And then we have unelected representatives of the crown sitting in the middle of what should have been a democratically elected government cabinet. What are they doing there?
We have seen it already with the referendum bill. They are there to stop any bill the crown does not agree with entering HOlyrood. In other words, via those representatives, the crown is reserving itself the right to decide what laws are passed and what not. It is controlling the legislative body of Scotland and it is doing this by stealing that power from the people of Scotland who, by electing their representatives should be the ones deciding what legislation enters their fkg parliament and which ones do not. Again, this is not a sign of a democracy. This is a symptom of a colony and one where the crown is distorting what look like democratic structures to exercise absolute rule.
The problem is once you have seen all that, you cannot unsee it, no matter how desperate are the cries of unionists and loyalists here claiming Scotland is not a colony or trying to ridiculise anybody who has realised of what is really going on.
Mia @ 8:09 am
“The problem is once you have seen all that, you cannot unsee it, no matter how desperate are the cries of unionists and loyalists here claiming Scotland is not a colony or trying to ridiculise anybody who has realised of what is really going on.”
As you well explain, the definition fits:
Crown colony = ‘a British colony whose legislature and administration was controlled by the Crown’
and ‘represented by a governor’ – Yousaf and/or Jack, tak yer pik, baith Meenisters o the croun
Mia,
“….Tell me, what exactly is a representative of the crown as crown agent doing in the middle of our prosecution service?
Why there isn’t one in England?…”
There is. It’s called the Crown Prosecution Service. It’s got pretty much the exact same role as the COPFS has in Scotland.
Northcode @ 10:23 pm
“I also wonder if the Scots, even today, are held in such high regard amongst other enlightened nations because when they ventured out across the world they sought cultural and material exchange as opposed to cultural domination and material exploitation.”
A very valid point Northcode. Trade and cultural exchange were historically the main features of Scottish international engagement and of Scots communities abroad, as evidenced from the Baltic to the Low Countries to France and further afield. Arguably also the ambitious Darien-Panama scheme was about facilitating trade connections between Asia-Americas-Europe via the isthmus rather than exploiting a people and territory in colonial terms. Today that canal is described as ‘Panama’s oil’ given its multi billion $ revenue for the country.
Scots had no grand Imperial ambitions, though after the union and with political direction from London, the ongoing cultural assimilation of native elites introduced new ‘values’ taking Scotland along a very different course and into an endless stream of conflicts with other peoples and nations which continues today.
Not forgetting the Colonial Stock Scotland Act held by Westminster, passed by Westminster.
And in the Westminster records.
Dear oh Lor’! So you’ve all got halos? Such delusion.
Google ‘Scottish role in the empire’