Daydream Nation
Independence is dead as a political issue in Scotland for the next few years. This much should not be in any dispute. A Labour government with a crushing majority sits firmly in Westminster with absolutely no intentions of granting a second referendum, and the SNP has loudly and clearly abandoned any other strategy.
This fact is understandably painful and difficult to come to terms with for anyone who’s devoted the last 13 years (or more) to pursuing that cause and now isn’t quite sure what to do with theirself. But for those who still aren’t ready to face up to the unpleasant reality, there’s always the comforting world of fantasy.
Because there’s always money to be made from snake oil and pie in the sky.
Believe In Scotland’s new proposal, released with great fanfare (well, a small piece in The National) this week, for a “Scottish Citizens’ Convention” is incoherent guff even as a basic principle. It frames itself explicitly as an “independence delivery strategy”:
It confidently predicts that the mere existence of the Convention will increase support for independence to between 62% and 65%. (A leap of almost 20 points, which is more than was achieved in the entire 2011-2014 Yes campaign.)
And it has determined the Convention’s eventual conclusions in advance, allowing for “zero possibility” of any other outcome:
Yet at the same time the proposal document inexplicably tries to pretend that the venture will somehow be participated in willingly by the half of Scotland that currently DOESN’T want the country to be independent.
Um… why?
Put yourself in the shoes of a Unionist voter receiving an invitation to take part in this programme. You’ll be asked to give up your time for a YEAR – exactly how much time and how often is not specified – for something that you’ve been quite expressly told is designed to deliver independence, will increase support for independence merely by dint of existing, and will result in a renewed demand for independence.
Why in the world would you do that? Would YOU, readers, engage with such a thing if it had been organised by Scotland In Union with the stated purpose of increasing support for Scotland’s membership of the UK? Of course you bloody wouldn’t. So why would Unionists lend a hand to Believe In Scotland?
It is, then, a plan of quite jaw-droppingly cynical dishonesty from its most fundamental conception. This will be a echo-chamber talking-shop of people already committed to independence, which will produce a report recommending independence.
Gosh, imagine everyone’s surprise. Picture this stunning development on all the front pages: BREAKING: INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTERS WANT INDEPENDENCE. (No media other than The National has even bothered reporting the proposal, because it’s such an obvious waste of time and attention.)
We could spend several thousand words pulling apart all the other absurd nonsense in the document, pointing out staggeringly obvious flaws like pinning the whole plan on support for the SNP, which is currently electoral toxic waste leaking out of the sewers of a burning nuclear power station. But why bother when even the most basic building blocks are made out of poorly-set jelly?
Wings is, and all Yes supporters should be, absolutely grossly insulted by this mind-bogglingly cretinous idea. It isn’t just stupid, it’s offensively, galactically stupid.
It’s laughing openly in your face. It’s pissing in your pocket and telling you it’s raining. It’s the dust from the dregs of the scrapings from the bottom of the barrel, a hopefully-last desperate attempt at grifting from a “grassroots” organisation that struggled to put 1500 people on the streets on a nice sunny day this April even when led by the First Minister and with the full backing of the Scottish Government.
Because they’re not complete imbeciles, BiS has anticipated this reaction:
But sometimes doing nothing is an infinitely better plan. The Scottish people have been harangued about independence for a decade and a half. They’re sick of it and they know that for now at least it’s going nowhere. If we want to show voters some respect – and, y’know, that’s generally a good plan – by far the best thing we could do at this particular moment is simply shut the hell up for a bit.
And if that’s too much, the second-best thing is to at least not to treat them like the sort of drooling halfwitted dolts who’d swallow slack-jawed chump-drivel like this.
Had Swinney/Flynn said anything yet about their failed GE strategy? Or has that been kicked into the long grass. Nothing to see here until Scottish Parliament election in 2026. We truly are on the downslide.
BiS Mission statement: ‘Folding, not Clinking’.
I just want to greet – it looks as though I will be pushing up daisies long before my country is restored.
I hate them.
What was Canon Kenyan Wright’s convention during the Thatcher years?
Wow!
Rainbow arms.
I wonder what that’s really all about?
It’ll be worth waiting a few more years if it means that these liars and thieves continue to reveal themselves.
Some of us won’t live to see it but there will be a reckoning one day.
Independence is dead as a political issue in Scotland for the next few years.
Make that a generation at least. The damage done by the SNP is in my view irreparable & it’ll take either a new political party to take up the reigns (Alba are completely useless) or for the SNP to hit rock bottom which it’s nowhere near yet. Then in the wake of that the party is flushed out and reformed.
This fact is understandably painful and difficult to come to terms with for anyone who’s devoted the last 13 years to pursuing that cause and now isn’t quite sure what to do with itself.
This needs to be said over and over. We can go on marches, wave a few flags, talk the talk while rattling donation tins & posting links for donations but as a political cause it is for now over. Sure, support is still there but most people have other priorities right now & there’s no way back in the short term for the cause.
Of course groups like Believe in Scotland, the SNP & all the usual grifters will carry on milking indy supporters for every penny they can. The fact is the world of Scottish politics is in such a bad state that it’s just throwing money and time away.
Until we come to terms what’s been done in the last decade then they’ll be no way forward for indy or politics generally, and to add to things, today the Covid inquiry has condemned the Westminster government and all the devolved ones for failing to do their jobs during the crisis. That’s another failure sitting on Sturgeon’s shoulders to add to all the others.
I don’t know the solution but I do think people have got to stop fooling themselves that we’re getting independence any time in the next 10-20 years.
Sounds like an Angus Robertson kinda thing now that Woko Haram’s on the slide.
Posted purely FYI – thanks!
In the CC document – the proposal makes reference to eventual international recognition’. The Declaration of a Sovereign Scot initiative, now running for over 3 years, with individually signed Declarations gained from individuals from all over Scotland, lodged with the United Nations HQ in New York (for safe-keeping), with the more active aspects arising, and being developed in the contact established with 18 UN Member States. The initiative is ongoing.
Its an open question ‘what gets any unionist into a discussion’? There’s nothing in it for them.
We know there’s an unbudgeable % that will never change, the imagination as always should be directed to the people in the middle, who decide outcomes. Unfortunately they’re caught between ‘when its too tough best not to make any radical changes’ to ‘things are ok, why change’.
The principle is who gets to make these decisions, its not for any of us to pre determine what kind of politics will dominate that future, its for the people of any given time to benefit from their land and shape as they see fit by voting for a range of parties tailored to a rich small nation. Every other message is a distraction.
A cynical confection. A decoy for fear of Salvo developments.
This is just your SNP parasitism in action.
AUOB have successful marches – Let’s pinch that idea and hold BiS marches first! Same day conflicts? So much the better! Clever us!
SALVO call for a Convention of the Estates – Let’s pinch that idea and hold a BiS Convention!
How I hate these fkers, I really, really do. Absolute Scum.
There is a solution, but it will probably take two Holyrood terms. So I am talking about 2031 here.
The SNP will carry on until 2026 in the same failed vein. They will inevitably lose. In tandem with this bogus party. We need all the splinter parties to unite and form one party , along with the few decent ex SNP MP’s and MSP’s. Because the SNP is about to be torn apart , and the rebels will be useful to the new party. The Yes voters need a new credible party. They may only win 7 seats at Holyrood, but it’s a beginning.
Come 2031 these numbers could form a majority, assuming the SNP throw in the towel. This is all wishful thinking, but there is no other way.
The common enemy is not WM , it’s the SNP. United we can take their cosy seats off them.
Bad Moonhowler Rising.
When the SNP came out with the equivalent of these Citizen Committees some of the Total Trash who posted BTL at the Herald were members, one who openly despised the yt working class in general and particularly Glasgow/Glaswegians. Whilst commenting about his membership BTL at the Herald he invited a woman to join who was a member of RISE and lived in Newton Mearns and who was equally as contemptuous of the WWC believing that they were Silver Rocket(s).
https://www.believeinscotland.org/about
142 affiliated Yes groups
Is this what BiS hopes to do?
“Make a unilateral declaration of independence. This requires a clear majority of people representing Scotland to indicate their approval but it should not be done by the Scottish Parliament, as the latter is within UK domestic law. This could be done, for example, through a convention of elected and diverse representatives from across Scotland with a clear majority in favour. This approach relies for its effectiveness on the recognition by States of the Statehood of Scotland (Paragraph 135 b).”
Mike Fenwick: I see you’re still pushing your “Declaration of a Sovereign Scot initiative, now running for over 3 years.”
How about a little HONESTY from you: HOW MANY OF THE 5.5 MILLION SCOTS HAVE SIGNED YOUR DECLARATION?
Last I looked, it had 11,000 signatures. 3,000 per year. Less than 1/5th of 1% of Scots. Why should anyone, let alone an international body, even pay attention to a handful of moonhowlers?
@Fearghas 3.24pm
As the Rev rightly points out this idea is ocean going stupidity. The idea that Salvo and Liberation Scotland are in anyway better or more likely to lead to independence in any reasonable time scale isn’t just ocean going it’s visible from low earth orbit.
BiS and Salvo are just two cheeks of the same erse.
If Labour stand in 2026 with a commitment to not reverse all our do called goodies in Scotland and indeed to introduce more socially cohesive policies while the SNP maintains its manana approach to Independence they will disappear. Only a cohesive Yes campaign with non party affiliated candidates with a single policy of referendum or UDI might break the log jam.
3.24pm “Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh says”
I agree, Fearghas. Right now, Salvo offers the only sliver of hope of keeping the dream alive. And although the current situation seems eternally depressing, none of us can predict events with certainty, not even Rev Stu, even given his successful prediction record. For that reason, I follow Salvo developments with the view that they are for now our only potential path.
Scots have never given up in the past, not even when the indy movement was a joke, outwith the fringes of society, and I doubt if we can completely give up now. I no longer expect indy in my lifetime, but then at one time I would never have expected a Scottish Parliament in my lifetime or an indy referendum. And it was international pressure that brought Holyrood into being.
Of course the UK is a rogue state now and ignores most international pressures under the wing of US and NATO. But just sometimes, events take a massive and unexpected turn. “It is better to travel in hope…” than not to travel at all.
If we don’t have credible Independence party candidates in 2026 Holyrood election Glen Lanour will take over and turn our devolved parliament into a greater England Council .
They already have set this in motion with fhe devolved nations and greater England mayoral regional council.
When will folk wake up.
What Dorothy Devine said.
I’m a good bit younger and I really want to make sure the rats, who betrayed us all, get their comeuppance.
The faces of all the nuSNP grifting MPs who lost their seats was priceless. And that is just the start of the payback.
As more sordid revelations occur, more people will see Sturgeon for what she is. And, more importantly, what she and her cabal did.
And, we can all look forward to Sturgeon’s nuSNP cabal fighting each other for list places.
And the upcoming court cases. Especially the court cases.
So doing nothing will be a disaster. Every day another asset is stripped. Am I right in assuming that GB Power will take in all our renewables from the sovereign people of Scotland? The SNP spoke of this Scottish Power Company and we got excited. It died and now that idea will be nipped in the bud by the power brokers.
Would like to quote Ewan Macgregor in trainspotting here…………..
Sam
BiS say ‘Our focus is on advocating for independence’. But what is their proposed route?
What has a ‘wellbeing economy’, whatever that is, to do with getting independence?
It seems to me that they’re trying to compete with Salvo. But Salvo have a legitimate international route clearly worked out, based on Scotland’s history and UN protocol.
As someone pointed out earlier on here, BiS also organised a march to compete with AUOB, so I see this as just another blind alley. It’s a no brainer.
@FionaN
“Salvo offers the only sliver of hope”
I had not heard of BiS until today. It claims to have 142 Yes groups affiliated including the town where I live. I’ve met Yes people in my town and the group is alive, active, intelligent and well informed.
Are Salvo and BiS going down the same road?
I can see sense in writing randomly. A diverse and representative group is needed. You need to be able to show that you are aiming for that.
The quote I posted upthread is from Professor McCorquodale’s advice to Alba. The idea of Bis and Salvo fits with Alba policy to build pressure on UK gov.
@ ross: “what was Canon Kenyon Wright’s Convention during the Thatcher years?”
I think it was similar to the Salvo and BliS suggestions i.e. a mix of civic institutions – church, trade unions – and others.
However Canon Wright was a sincere and principled person who would not truckle to the State or any political party. “We are the people and we say Yes” he said – stirring stuff. So Salvo are his successors, in my view.
The only thing indy people can do now is mellow the flip out and accept that the indy pooch is screwed for at least the next 20 years. Go and find something better to do meanwhile.
Or do what I did and accept that Indy is always going to be run by a bunch of student politicians whose idea of a great idea is stripping Scotland of nuclear weapons and throwing it’s oil away. Become a closet yoon, your friends will never know.
“The idea that Salvo and Liberation Scotland are in anyway better or more likely to lead to independence in any reasonable time scale isn’t just ocean going it’s visible from low earth orbit.
BiS and Salvo are just two cheeks of the same erse.”
Yeah you’d love to see us abandon Liberation/Salvo both of which are not affiliated to any political parties in Scotland, both want to educate Scots on the falseness of the union, basically they want to show Scots that the illegal union is held together with smoke and mirrors and with the help of treacherous House Jocks.
Both have come under attack from the English security services for trying to show Scots that we can dissolve this illegal union anytime we please to do so, if we can get the right people in place.
Both will/have approached the international community with irrefutable evidence that the union doesn’t exist, that it was created illegally.
Wingate W*nkers such as you and Clansman can put down Liberation/Salvo all you want we know why you are doing it, the English/Scottish House Jock establishment fears them and so they should, they have revealed vital information on the illegal union to the Scottish public information that would’ve never seen the light of day without them, and there’s more to come.
Scots must educate themselves using Salvo and Liberation for they will not find this vital information anywhere else.
Wings would have laughed at Canon Wright as well
Kill off anything that keeps the issue burning
Disenfranchising especially young people who support independence.
Something needs to be maintained for the next push.
BiS = guff, guff and more guff.
I do believe an autonomous government is the only way for Scotland to progress, but given the chance I’d have difficulty voting for that today, because I see few, if any, politicians competent, trustworthy and viable enough to govern it. We need an altruistic hero (not BiS) to rouse them, so where are you?
David Davies today at Westminster raising again, the attempted lynching of Alex Salmond by the SG the SNP the COPFS and many others.
Using parliamentary privilege he does not miss and hit the wall. He states clearly that it was Liz Lloyd who leaked the Salmond charges to the Daily Retard.
The response from the all new Labour Scotland Office?
Not a lot.
Apologies. The correct quote of Canon Wright is “What if that other voice we all know so well responds by saying “we say no and we are the state”? Well we say yes – and we are the people.”
His convention was the Scottish Constitutional Convention which was non- and cross-party.
A lot of people are struggling to come to terms with how hopeless the situation seems, but we are in a better position now (that the SNP has been rumbled) than we were before.
It’s a pity Alba are so boring but if they could get rid of the pro-NATO moonhowlers and put a little more emphasis on things that matter to ordinary people, who knows…
A creature of the SNP’s recently unemployed and another opportunity for the blue haired biology deniers to hijack a pro-Indy organisation and steer it towards their Transutopia. All that’s left to do is to kick the SNP square between the legs in 2026 and take the rest of the decade off.
I recon we’ll only achieve Indy when England becomes such a social, ethnic, political and economic basket case that the English living here come around to the idea of an Indy Scotland as a last refuge of white, christian, anglo-centric values.
Until that happens, I’m seriously considering upping sticks and letting the Irish give me back what the English took away…my EU citizenship and my passport out of here. Always said if Scotland won’t leave the UK, then I’ll leave Scotland. Brexit complicates that somewhat, but doesn’t make it impossible.
MaryB
Are they competing or going down the same road?
There have always been different groups campaigning (and squabbling) over how to achieve independence.
Both BiS and Salvo are acting on the advice commissioned by Alba from Prof McCorquodale.
So we’ve to abandon the SNP and try again and also not talk about it in any other meaningful way ourside the SNP.
In fact stamp it out at birth.
Is anyone else getting unionist vibes here?
And Spouse @ 4.57 says “Would like to quote Ewan Macgregor in trainspotting here…………..”
I’ve got a Trainspotting T-shirt made with the pic of the 5 main characters and the words “It’s shite bein’Scottish, we’re colonised by wankers.” Our wee Highland village is about 60% colonised.
Alba supports a Convention for independence.
“The ALBA Party have repeatedly called for the the SNP to follow through on the promise made by the former First Minister at the end of January 2020 to form an Independence Convention. The Convention would bring together key representatives from political, civic and independence groupings to establish the way forward in regaining independence for Scotland. This convention will act as the steering group of the independence movement.”
Canon Kenyons convention was stated during a period where thatcher had a majority too.
And the SNP vote was less than it is now.
And independence support was not nearly 50 percent.
The idea someone from Bath knows more about what Scots want, when I know personally Scots who want independent but didn’t vote SNP, it wasn’t meaningfully on the ballot paper, is for the birds. It could be back on the ballot paper one day in the future, who knows when, and there will need to be a grassroots there to fight it. That needs nourished until the day comes.
We didn’t stop after failed parliament vote and were not about to now either.
There are screeds of pro indy voters in Scotland looking for a way forward when the time is right.
@Campbell Clansman – if Salvo is not the answer then what do you suggest how we go about securing independence?
@RoS 5.25 pm
Yeah you’d love to see us abandon Liberation/Salvo both of which are not affiliated to any political parties in Scotland..
I’m entirely indifferent whether you abandon it or not. The $64,000 question is whether Salvo’s route to indy a) works and b) gains enough support. Hard fail on demonstrating either so far.
Both have come under attack from the English security services for trying to show Scots that we can dissolve this illegal union anytime we please to do so, if we can get the right people in place.
Maybe they have come under such attack, and maybe they haven’t. All sounds too much like tin foil hattery for most folk. So far Salvo have signally failed to provide any credible evidence that “we” can dissolve the union, or that it has no legal validity, or that we can do it anytime we fancy.
Also the “if” in that last statement is doing a lot of heavy lifting, as is the idea that “you” have the right people, or could get them in place. More hard fails.
You lot just aren’t very good at this stuff are you…?
Both will/have approached the international community with irrefutable evidence that the union doesn’t exist, that it was created illegally.
Not buying it, sorry. The evidence is anything but irrefutable. You have no significant body of academic, legal, constitutional or political back up for Salvo’s claims, either in Scotland or abroad. Nobody cares about what happened 300 years ago and it won’t bring independence a scintilla closer.
…they have revealed vital information on the illegal union to the Scottish public information that would’ve never seen the light of day without them, and there’s more to come.
Oh haud us back! We wait with bated breath. There again, given the underwhelming nature of what’s been produced so far, and their adamant refusal to tell us how many supporters they have or the nature of this vital information which somehow “proves” their assertion, forgive us if we tend to write them off as kranks in the same vein as BiS, even if their path is parallel rather than identical.
ross
Ignored says:
18 July, 2024 at 6:23 pm
Canon Kenyons convention was stated during a period where thatcher had a majority too…’
I agree with that comment Ross that you have just made. I think the purpose of this article doesn’t to undermine that argument. The author doesn’t rate Business for Scotland. The article argues that BiS is not an honest organisation that it is a tool of the SNP leadership, that the SNP leadership have sold us out and are now a deliberate barrier to independence and those who run BiS benefit directly from their relationship with the SNP.
This smells of Volkssurmgewehr.
I wonder if the person who did their projections was the same person who did their miracle numbers of 25000 in Edinburgh on a patch of grass that previous YES events organisers had done the risks assessment asked for by the SPCB security as safe for 5000 people. Everything GMK does is ” fake it til you make it ” . The only way he could make anywhere near these numbers would to have Kelly Given threaten to shag anyone who refused to sign up .
For some, Salvo/Liberation are just way too ambitious! How dare they use pertinent, extant documentation to make the case internationally for Scottish decolonisation at the UN! How dare they eschew the well trodden and utterly pointless political party route to independence! How dare they suggest that we Scots are a colonised people!
Why am I strongly reminded of the vast number NO voters who never once visited Wings over Scotland or knew about the existence of the McCrone Report or the true economic picture vis-a-vis Scotland and the UK treeasury in the run-up to the 2014 referendum?
«As democracy is perfected, the office of the president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron»
H.L.MENCKEN
In effect we get the politicians and the politics the masses crave.
Republicofscotland has it in what he says regards Salvo and Liberation of Scotland.
Both advocate UDI by several methods. Both attest to the lies of UK so called union. It was historically illegally created so requires no legal dissolution. Time most of Scotland woke up. Read their blogs.
OK so many doubters now on here about Slavo and Lineration Scotland.
So if you want a true international legal perspective read Buchannans book Justice, Legitimaticy and Self Determination.
The latter chapters cover Scotlands case. And UDI to UN is not ruled out.
A random simpleton: “We didn’t stop after failed parliament vote and were not about to now either.”
Firstly, and most importantly, fuck off.
Secondly, if the Scottish Citizens Convention takes even one gullible halfwit like you out of circulation, I’ll donate… and don’t worry, I mean the kind of money that folds (I know how it works).
@R0S 5.25: yes, I’m always amazed by the huge efforts from Tobias Ellwood’s little elves on these pages to rubbish what they habitually call “ancient treaty guff” and Salvo’s “magical thinking” on the Treaty of Union.
If these arguments are so obviously nonsense, why bother with the relentless attempts to discredit them?
Methinks the cyberspooks doth protest to much…
“While an election for the Scottish Parliament by itself would appear to be insufficient to provide a basis for a unilateral declaration of independence,50 it might be possible, after an election
for it to establish, for example, a body of elected and diverse representatives from
Scotland – perhaps through a modified version of the Scottish Constitutional
Convention of 1989 – and it would require a clear majority in favour of a unilateral
declaration of independence.
In addition, a referendum supporting the unilateral declaration of independence by Scotland, with a clear question and a clear majority supporting it,would be necessary, as the people’s views in Scotland are not yet as obvious as was the situation in Kosovo. If this referendum was not based on legislation by the Scottish Parliament, then that might be a means to avoid the Scotland Act and UK constitutional principles, though those issues are outside the scope of this Opinion.
If the unilateral declaration of independence of Scotland is made, with a
referendum, then it will require recognition of States to enable Scotland to be an
independent State in international law.
123. It should be noted that there were 51 founding members of the United Nations
in 1945, and that today there are 193 members.51 The vast majority of those new
members (all of whom must be States) were entities which became independent from
another State. It is, therefore, completely possible, despite the difficulties, for new
States to occur, including through secession from an existing State as, for example, did
the many former constituent parts of both the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
(USSR) and Yugoslavia, as well as Bangladesh and South Sudan.”
Sam
BiS strongly identifies with the SNP – if not directly linked to it. So their push for independence is already compromised by that connection. Scotland needs a group that has no party political allegiances, whether Alba or any other party. That’s why Salvo/liberation seems the best hope. Alf Baird and Ian Lawson, the two main players do not have any party allegiances.
Is this one of the Blackford racing pigeon retirement funds?
I hivnae goat any gauze tae cover ma ear do yous think anybody would notice if i used ah teabag Ah la Trump .
Did anyone watch David Davis raise concerns over Alex Salmond investigation in parliament?
@Iain McCubbin 6.56pm
Rather than insist folk go and find some book which may or may not support your case, how about actually engaging with the issues doubters have and addressing some of the concerns with all the assertions being made?
For a movement that wants to persuade a majority to make a pretty huge shift in their usual political modus operandi (one which by the way looks even more outlandishly unlikely given the behaviour of Scots electors in the recent past) Salvo and its supporters are doing a pretty crap job so far.
And of course, international law doesn’t prohibit UDI. We know this. Neither does it encourage it: indeed the hurdles put in the way of UDI are purposefully high, particularly in situations which are not clearly of decolonisation, which is another element the international community just doesn’t accept applies to Scotland however much Alf Baird and his mates wish it were otherwise.
What happened to david davis’ speech in HOC then??
@ Ruby: I searched for the David Davis adjournment debate that I thought was to happen yesterday but I couldn’t find it via the link you gave, or anywhere else. Was it on the Salmond case or on general constitutional principles, as he did last time?
Ruby – the David Davis debate was today and is on facebook of The Crossgate Centre.
It happened at 5pm but you can still watch it.
David Davis is talking about a witness telling him that Liz Lloyd leaked the documents about the Salmond allegations to the press.
This will be taken up by the Scottish police immediately, I expect. 🙂
And be all over BBC Scotland and the Scottish press. 🙂 🙂
Anything organised by BIS (SNP proxy) needs to be avoided like the plague. There is merit in having an indy convention. They know that. That’s why they are hijacking the idea, in order to scupper it, the same way as they’ve organised ‘marches’ to coincide with AUOB marches.
Kirsty McNeill MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Midlothian, Labour (Co-op)) answered David Davies with a lot of bla bla bla Labour is great.
She did say a couple of thing which I thought were of interest
1. Labour would look to giving Holyrood ‘freedom of speech’ which I presume she means ‘Parliamentary privilege’
2. Scrutiny of Scottish parliament is for Scottish parliament and that is something that could be done be done by Tory members of Holyrood.
It’s quite weird that they don’t currently do more and why didn’t she mention the Labour members of the Scottish parliament.
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/c6f1dc98-735b-456b-9e60-bbb16d4ef114?agenda=True
Click index and scroll down to 17.08
He says Alex Salmond is now suing Scottish Gov and this case has now been sisted some of those who constructed the case against Mr Salmond are now under police investigation.
Sisted: I had to look it up. It says. “chiefly Scottish : to bring into court’
Ruby, I am going to assume that she knows fine well that the Tories couldn’t get it through without Labour support (which they would not want to give) and is therefore all too happy to go with the status quo.
” not buying it … ”
Who gives a quark of fuck what you ” buy ” or don’t ” buy ” ?
It’s not about you .
What Salvo/Liberation are trying to do is too big to fit into the microscopic sterile cube that is your imagination : the desert where original thinking goes to die .
We don’t know if what those groups are doing will bear fruit in a tangible way, ie be constructive in the realisation of our ambition .
We don’t know BECAUSE IT HASN’T BEEN TRIED , YET ; and the ridiculous amount of hostility from within the Independence support ( can’t call it the Independence Movement , its currently stalled ) & and it’s alleged Leading Lights , the relentless negativity directed at people 100% committed to helping the Cause has been a painful reminder of Scots’ depressing tendency to spurn possible advantages and waste precious time/energy fighting among ourselves .
BTW …I don’t think we can ” forget ” about Independence , ” focus on other things ” or write it off for ” a generation ” just because it’s not on the horizon ATM . It MIGHT take that long , who knows ? But if we ASSUME it’s definitely going to take that long , it will ; or it might never happen .
How can we be sure support won’t wither away from lack of interest , lack of nutrition , if no one is talking/thinking about it ?
I think I may have confused you.
The ‘freedom of speech’ would be for Westminster to vote on I think.
The scrutiny of the dodgy goings at Holyrood could be done by any party.
BTW If you are accessing the David Davis speech via the above link you may have to double click the 17.08 link
Someone has put it on YouTube which will be easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwphSZfQ1RM
It should be in Hansard tomorrow maybe. I always prefer a written transcript.
“sam says” 5.07pm
Salvo is not connected to BiS, and has a very different, credible and organised approach. I for one would not touch BiS with a bargepole. BiS is taking other more popular initiatives like AUOB, Salvo etc and trying to neutralise them by pretending to offer something as good or better, but right in front of the other initiatives to scupper support for them. It has been seen e.g. in the BiS marches suddenly announced to take place a week or two before the AUOB marches, and the snp itself announced a convention while Useless was FM. It was a complete failure so now BiS is trying that plot again.
I think that all strands of the Yes movement have to come together at some point but to do that, and to foster any hope of reconciliation, SNP and their BiS pals will have to stop with the scheming and sabotage plots and show some honesty (is that an oxymoron to say snp and honesty in the same breath?), integrity and genuine motivation to work together for indy. I wont hold my breath.
I`m surprised they didn`t start the document with ” Are you sitting comfortably children, then i`ll begin”.
The patronising cretins.
You really have to laugh at the eejits suggesting Independence is dead for yrs so everyone just go away hame..
We seem to be forgetting independence is over 50%
It’s going nowhere.
If ppl don’t like BiS, guess what? You don’t have to listen.
Ppl don’t like Wings, guess what? They don’t have to listen..
I wish everyone would stop the childish, immature shite.
Indyref is a collective. It always was. Fuck off & start yer own YES group & get over yer narcissistic impulse to dominate the agenda. Come up with yer own ideas.
If ppl want to try a convention what’s it to anyone else? Seriously?! It’s like a fcking playground.
Yoons would love us back in our box & say that’s just what we all do? The world hates a vacuum as they say – careful what fills it next. Are we all just to go back to yoon-vile & twiddle our thumbs?
What do I think? I think any convention would be infiltrated by grifting arseholes and derailed by queer theory, critical race theory and social justice, such is the mess Scotland is in
@ Robert Hughes 8.37 pm Well said , And the franchise fanny wetting himself with excitement that Stuey is “FISTING” aw these ancient guff protagonists, there is something questionable about someone’s stated desires for independence when they can ejaculate with passion when a group who are genuine in their desire and intent for independence are compared with a cabal of grifters and con men
I challenge Stuart Campbell to clarify if this article is specifically about BIS or is intended to include and ridicule the workings and intent of the groups SALVO,SSRG ,and Liberation.Scot, as a believer and member of SALVO and Liberation.Scot I and I think the other members of these groups would like clarification of your opinions
You say it best…
The Salmond / SNP / Alba plan for indy is no just deid; it’s as deid as a dodo. They tried it and failed.
Aye, things have changed since then. For the worse.
The demographics. A majority of Scots-born voters chose indy in 2014. But, the number of non-Scots-born voters has greatly increased since then.
Also, the reputations of both the SNP and Salmond are in the gutter.
Furthermore, Salmond / Alba / SNP also bend the knee to English Crown in Wm sovereignty, sworn servants of the English Crown, and, as Stu points out, the chances of being given permission for an indyref2 from HM Govt is zero.
Scotland is a colony with no English Crown democratic route to independence. Until you grasp that basic fact, the rest is a waste of time and effort.
@twatbyname 3.39 am
Stuey can speak for himself if he choses: he’s made it pretty clear in the past that he wan’t interested in discussing certain topics, whereas he’s happy to get right in amongst others like the gender woo debate, which is fair enough. It’s not obligatory for anyone to share the same interests and focus on particular pet issues other people have.
Your post simply exhibits more of the usual sad deflection form protagonists of “cunning plans for indy” who simply won’t engage on the issues, have no appreciable support, and think wishes and dreams will propel the movement (such as it is) to its goal.
Their approach desperately thin gruel, just as what passes for the case put forward by the likes of Salyers, Baird, Lawson et al doesn’t bear the slightest scrutiny, or have any appreciable intellectual, political or legal back up.
These is no short cut to independence.
There is no silver bullet or legal leger de main available.
Only a clear majority vote in response to a clear question will deliver independence in any reasonable timescale.
I reckon given what I’ve seen of his responses in the past (though I hasten to add I don’t know) that Stuey would endorse those 3 points. If he does, it doesn’t exactly denote he’s a believer in Salvo or Liberation Scotland.
How dumb are you?
Salvo, Liberation et all are not a political party. They’re a pressure group doing the ground work for a future political party to run with.
You keep banging yer drum about a plebiscite that won’t be recognised. Good luck with that. The time for that plan was Westminster.
Do you tell Common Weel to fuck off? You seem to have a loathing for Salvo & Liberation which promotes them even more if it gets on yer nerves. Yer fecking obsessed. Like a creepy stalker.
Twathater
Aye, I’d be interested in his opinion too.
The RAG (The National) along with these SO CALLED INDY supporters who make a living out of talking and written about Independence if Independence happens it won’t bring in the monthly wage packet hence if Independence never happens it suits there bank accounts and if Sturgeon was to return as leader of the SNP they’d all be standing there waiting for her. Believe in Scotland well there isn’t one of us true believers who doesn’t what we don’t believe in is the bull from the WEBSITE Believe in Scotland he’s on the gravy train as is Lesley Riddoch all this woman has ever done is make a living out of Scotland when she isn’t even Scottish.
Politicians and political parties are the problem. They are merely the dumb agents of corporations and billionaires. The problem can never be part of the solution.
Salvo have the right way of it: citizen power. BiS have noticed this and so set out to thwart it. Ignore them.
SusanAHF @ 1.28am
“I think any convention would be infiltrated by grifting arseholes and derailed by queer theory, critical race theory and social justice, such is the mess Scotland is in”
——————————-
Couldn’t agree more.
Anything being set up should include a mechanism to prevent it happening. No idea what that mechanism might be though, and that is a problem in itself that isn’t being addressed.
@ WHITE FLIGHT from the hordes ELLIS, are you now “Stueys”spokesgroveller, I wasn’t asking YOU twat,everyone is aware of your yoonhowling views and more people are suspicious of your excitement in trying to do down ANY route to independence, YOU mirror sturgeon and Salmond that the only way to indy is through WM, Between yer shillin for Salmond’s franchise and yer constant bleating about a plebiscite when the politicians won’t agree to one I would say that highlights the fact that you are happy with the union
I am challenging Stuart Campbell to clarify if this article is specifically about BIS or is intended to include and ridicule the workings and intent of the groups SALVO,SSRG ,and Liberation.Scot, as a believer and member of SALVO and Liberation.Scot I and I think the other members of these groups would like clarification of your opinions
Surely it is a very easy question to answer, you are not usually reticent in promoting your views or opinions
The sycophantic arsehole ELLIS takes great pleasure in endlessly QUOTING and posting your views and opinions on ANY franchise change why not excite him or not by clarifying the request
Brexit suffered from being brought about by a coalition outside party political lines. No party led the Brexit vote and in consequence there was no leader with a plan when the ‘leave’ command came in. So no, an independent group pushing for Scottish independence is not a good idea, if only because the Scottish people can see what happens when it’s not a competent, committed government that leads you out. The SNP were committed but weren’t competent. Had they been good at being a government then they could have built the case for another referendum in 10 years. They wouldn’t have been decimated at the general election.
After the bodge of Brexit the people of Scotland will want, more than ever, to know what they’ll be getting outside of the UK. No plans they make or promises issued would be worth the electrons that make them up unless there is a political party to enact them.
The talk of UDI is very like the Brexit Party’s demand for a no deal Brexit. Leaving with no idea what you’d do after you got it. Ultimately the British public didn’t like that idea and the Scots aren’t any different. It’s one thing to want independence but entirely another to want an uncertain future on your own.
So the real question is, how do you build a competent government?
@twatbynametwatbynature 6.18pm
Good to see I’m still living rent free in that empty space between your ears. You’re really all over the place here, probably the two brain cells rattling around in there trying furiously to connect.
There’s only one plausible route to indy given the referendum route has been effectively closed: plebiscitary elections. Anyone still arguing for other “Cunning Plans for Indy” route is delusional. The fact a few dozen nutters who infest BTL in here fluff for you fringe nutter views signifies fuck all.
I doubt Stu will take kindly to a roaster like you goading him on his own site and demanding he does what you want.
The fact is it rips the knitting of you and all other nativists, xenophobes and bigots that Stu (together with the vast majority of the movement to be fair) thinks you’re all moonhowlers. Cry harder. 🙂
“There’s only one plausible route to indy given the referendum route has been effectively closed:”
Given that you’ve folded in two minutes flat that it’s somehow acceptable that a sovereign nation can be denied a referendum then what makes you sure a plebiscite will?
& Fuck about yer majority pish. You don’t speak for the majority in anything & neither does the party you claim to have founded. Get back to us if you ever do speak for anyone besides herself.
As for Stu, it’s a perfectly valid question. Maybe he appreciates feedback from his readers? I assume he’ll be moving on from writing about the SNP seeing as that’s basically flogging a dead donkey. So what’s his plans? Retirement, get behind another route, take time out. Pack it all in & stick to X…
@Geriatricsenility 10.38pm
There’s no point in participating in a process that we know in advance won’t be recognised. It didn’t work for the Catalans and it won’t work for us. Scotland isn’t a sovereign nation, the UK is. Scotland doesn’t have a seat at the UN because it isn’t an independent state.
You’re either too crushingly dim to see the different between the Scottish people being sovereign (which is true of any people according to the UN) and being a sovereign state, or you’re being purposefully disingenuous. Of course in your case both is an option.
It’s quite simple: there is no path to Scottish independence that doesn’t result from a majority vote in favour in response to a clear question. No other countries will recognise a declaration not based on that simple fact.
I do speak for the majority. I’m also representing simple truth in terms of international law and precedent. Your views reek of Brigadoon fantasising and of historical and legal ignorance. Of course, it’s not a sin to be ignorant, but it is a sin to be as proud of it as you and the rest of the moonhowlers are.
What a lot of folk forget is that no matter your method or cunning plan for independence it will eventually have to be back by the majority of the populace.
I am reasonably informed but I haven’t a clue what the decoration of a sovereign Scot thing is or what salvo or half the ancroyms thrown around are about.
I usually ask my wife is she knows as she is a good sample of the majority of the populace who don’t read the national or any blogs or websites and usually just get a blank look.
Which means that most Scots probably have idea what you are all talking about and probably care less despite polls.
There was going to be a Citizens Convention in 1999.
Or rather Forum.But it didn’t materialise.
Having run the country without consulting SNP (ex) members or the much wider Yes movement, never the whole country we would be better voting on issues like the Swiss cantonal system.
Where every so often folk go to public meetings on a Sunday and decide by referenda on issues, new proposed legislation etc.
Wurdz. Just many more wurdz. ?
For those who think Salvo and Liberation are no good to vote in the very recent Liberation council elections you had to go on the website and renew your password, then you install a VPN before you can even start the voting process. Your username for it is put on the screen briefly.
This is because they are constantly under attack. UK security services are not stupid. They know Claim of Right is still extant, still inextricably linked to the Union so it cannot be repealed.
So they know Salvo & Liberation are onto winners they cannot counter so they attack them. Be wary of anyone trying to diminish or demean them. Treat such people as agents of the state until proven otherwise.
“Muscleguy
Ignored says:
21 July, 2024 at 11:20 am
So they know Salvo & Liberation are onto winners they cannot counter so they attack them. Be wary of anyone trying to diminish or demean them. Treat such people as agents of the state until proven otherwise.”
Have you considered the alternative scenario that they are simply hiding their numbers because they are so few, nobody actually cares about them and maybe folk who disagree or question what they are doing simply are better informed or maybe live on this planet rather than next door to the clangers?
As an intellectual exercise fill yer boots on this stuff but try to remember it is fairly irrelevant, doesn’t have widespread public support and has no chance or actual success in the real world!
Just a look at the salvo website and read through what they are proposing
There is little point in saying much about it as essentially it is a load of nonsense, would be amazed if anybody took any of it seriously!