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Data just in

Posted on September 29, 2015 by

Alert readers may recall that a few days ago we queried a dubious-sounding statistic from Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, who claimed that 50% of the poorest kids leave our schools unable to read.

dugdalefive

We didn’t think that could be right, and dug up some figures suggesting that it was nonsense, but of course “the poorest kids” is a highly-flexible metric. Strictly speaking you could just mean the two poorest children in the country, and if one of those two can’t read there’s your 50%.

Luckily, we’ve now had some meat put on the bones of that claim.

Because in yesterday’s Daily Record, Dugdale was more specific:

kezliteracy

So let’s do the arithmetic on that.

There are currently 385,200 children in primary-school education in Scotland. If we’re talking about 6,000 or so, that’s just under 1.6%. According to Dugdale that’s “50% of the poorest kids”, so “the poorest kids” must mean the bottom 3.2%.

The Scottish Government actually measures deprivation in just three categories – “least deprived”, “middle” and “most deprived”. So to get her numbers, Dugdale must have sub-divided the “most deprived” group into TEN further gradations of deprivation.

We’re not sure that any actual statistical data on schoolchildren exists to enable her to do that. We’re currently seeking an official response. But at the moment, what looks more likely is that Kezia Dugdale has exaggerated the figures by a factor of 10 in order to attack the Scottish Government with a highly-misleading stat.

If that response ever arrives, we’ll keep you posted.

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    1. 29 09 15 08:43

      Data just in | Speymouth

    2. 02 10 15 17:24

      Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them | A Wilderness of Peace

    124 to “Data just in”

    1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      ScotLab, carrying on the good fight, making it up as they go along.

      Othere, less generous, would call that lying through their teeth.

      Plus ca change. It worked so well before.

      Lying is in their DNA, they can’t help it. We can.

    2. Bodincus says:

      Well, there is a shadow of truth in what Kez says.

      Obviously she got out of school unable to count.

      Blame the SNP.

    3. JohnWalsh says:

      Slab have form on conflating statistics by the power of 10 or 1000 more than ,whatever the SNP will do . Between Dugdale & Baillie’s grasp of economics their mathematical ineptitude could wipe out the budget deficit with the stroke of a pen.

    4. Lorraine says:

      This kind of analysis is very helpful – thank you Wings. Kezia’s statements are so imprecise and actually inaccurate that she really needs an interpreter beside her at all times.

      Can I add to this piece?

      She doesn’t say if the 6000 pupils leaving school ‘unable to read properly’ is an annual figure, or whether it was better under a Labour Government. But education statistics show that there are more than 6000 pupils with learning difficulties in Scotland each year,and that some 21% of pupils have some learning support needs, on which the Scottish government spends 11% of its annual budget. (see interview in The Herald with Minister in March 2015)

      I wonder if this figure has dramatically changed since the SNP gained control? If, as Kezia said last time, 50% of the poorest children are leaving school unable to read, then it has to be pointed out that those children would have started to learn to read under a Labour administration.

      Sums, Kezia, Sums.

    5. Macart says:

      I could be wrong, but I think Ms Dugdale just says the first thing that pops into her head at any given moment.

      No seriously, you can Google it…

    6. galamcennalath says:

      Part of the parliamentary process is for a government to be held to account by an opposition.

      What does it tell you about the situation in Scotland where the opposition continually make things up just to have something to be critical about?

      It says something about the government’s performance and/or the opposition’s competence!

    7. donald anderson says:

      What a bam. The sooner she loses her seat and we are rid of that lying lot the better.

      Jeremy loves his country and she loves his more than ours.

    8. David says:

      Ever so slightly baffled, does she just make this up OR are these flat out lies being fed to her?

      I thought she was university educated? It seems data analysis was not one of the skills she picked up at university.

      Just wondering how she manages at home.

      I am proud of my two boys BUT how do her parents feel about her continuously spouting lies and misinformation to the world at large.

      From the evidence presented here I conclude that she left school with no qualifications in maths and arithmetic, now I wonder which government was in place at that time…..certainly not the SNP even though Jeremy Corbyn seems to think the SNP have been the Scottish government since time immemorial.

    9. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      So we have a Tory Party whose Leader jerks off in pigs and a Labour Party whose Leaders, Big and Wee sections, just jerks out pig shit.

      Anyone see a pattern?

    10. Sassenach says:

      My only worry is that Nicola will have too much ammunition at the next FMQs – fish in a barrel springs to mind.

      Anybody got any popcorn left?

    11. Doug Daniel says:

      Maybe the Scottish Government has reduced child poverty to just 12,000 kids?

    12. Luigi says:

      Everyone knows that all politicians spin information and half-truths to support their argument. It’s what they do.

      However, the fact that Labour politicians continually get away with spouting blatant downright lies is a damning indictment of the media in this country, particularly the “impartial” BBC. It’s now getting absolutely ridiculous. Lie after lie after lie, with no challenge whatsoever. Are the BBC journalists and interviewers lazily caught unawares (if so, they should be wise to this red tory ploy by now), or are they collaborating in some dirty way, to perpetuate misinforming the masses?

      I think a bit of both IMO. Not good, Not good at all.

    13. heedtracker says:

      You can’t help but wonder what on earth Scots teachers, cops, NHS medics and nurses all make of SLabour/BBC relentless slandering their professions, day in day out. “You’re all a load of shite, vote Dugdale!”

    14. Macart says:

      On a brighter note there’s nothing like being absolutely clear on where you stand with a new regime and I don’t think that either the local branch manager or her boss have left us in any doubt at this point.

      Empty promises of new politics, honesty, cooperation, consensus swept aside as soon as their asses sit in the big chair, replaced with the usual tribal point scoring, sniping and public manipulation.

      They couldn’t even have had the time to unpack their personals into the new office space yet and already the same tired old political ploys are in full swing. Its painful and heartbreaking to watch as yet again we see how much the truth, a promise or a pledge is worth to these people. That is to say utterly worthless.

      Politics as it is practiced in the UK and aren’t we all proud of it. FFS, that’s Carmichael’s defence in his own case. Lying your ass off is the accepted norm and if you get caught? Well its no harm, no foul, no redress. Move on to the next lie, and the next and the next after that. Apparently its up to the public to spot their lies and then decide to vote for or against a thing. Not for the public to hold these people to account and sack their sorry behinds for seeking to mislead or manipulate, that would never do. No, just accept it that you can and will be lied to on a daily basis to manipulate your opinion.

      Well it appears that neither Ms Dugdale or Mr Corbyn have caught either the message or the mood in Scotland. People are sick to death of ‘politics as it is practiced’ and I’m willing to bet they are pretty fed up of being manipulated, lied to and abused for state, party and personal gain.

      I don’t think its too much to expect of our representatives that they simply do a job of bloody work. That they administer our state’s finances to the benefit of all, care for the needs of all its peoples, regardless of station, and seek to get on well with the neighbours. That they don’t lie to or mislead their own people and report accurately to us on a regular basis what the state of affairs is. They get paid enough and enjoy a great deal of reward at OUR expense. So I’d say a bit of return for our investment should be a fair expectation.

      Not rocket science you’d think, but some folk have to learn the hard way.

    15. Tinto Chiel says:

      As Jackie Mason would say, “Stu, stop with the facts, already.”

      Nice picture, too. Caption: “May 2016. Kezia waves goodbye to her political career”.

      It’s her Dear Old Dad I feel sorry for.

    16. Luigi says:

      Note to any real journalists left out there. I know you have a wee peak at WoS every day.

      The red tories are not just ripping the piss out of the public. They are making you look pretty stupid as well. If you don’t see this as an insult to your intelligence and to your profession, then you really ought to.

      So, whatcha gonna do ’bout it?

    17. galamcennalath says:

      Macart at 9:15am

      Well said! We do indeed know where they stand.

    18. ClanDonald says:

      Even if she now claims that she’s talking about 6000 per year, it’s still 6,000 out of about 55,000 who leave each year or 6000 out of about 18,300 poorest third (although presumably the 6000 number includes children from all wealth brackets as conditions like dyslexia and dyspraxia don’t just affect the poorest third).

      So (in the unlikely event) if ALL those who are struggling come from the poorest households, the highest percent Kezia could possibly claim is 33%.

      However, what’s really sickening about Kez is that she is totally ignoring the fact that school attainment is so closely linked to poverty which is worsening under the Tory government at Westminster and the fact that more and more children are going to school hungry due to cuts to the benefits system. But oh no, don’t talk about that, SNP bad.

    19. ross says:

      380,000 school kids leave primary school every year do they?

      suggest 380k divided by primary levels (7) is 54k.

      6k from 54k

      10 percent. Still less than fifty but still higher than it should be. Although I’ve no faith in Dugdale on the 6k figure.

    20. X_Sticks says:

      Bbc Kall Kaye (with nippy Louise) trying to bash the SNP over the £150k given to DF Concerts to help with the move to Strathallan.

      Such a narrow minded mob at PQ. If you don’t live in their wee healthy living world of last night of the proms and the opera then you are just nationalist scum to them.

      I’d keep T in the Park and ditch the bbc. Better value.

    21. ross says:

      in fact 54k leaving a year, with 12k from the most deprived ie. 22%. it’s starting to look more realistic.

    22. Dan Huil says:

      Unionists like Dugdale would love to see 100% of pupils unable to read.

    23. Chipmonkey says:

      What government was in power when Kezia was at school? It left her woefully short on the arithmetic front, plus she seems to have trouble reading since she hasn’t been able to read up on the subject and discover she was wrong.

    24. desimond says:

      100% of the richest Scottish Labour members cant lead

    25. Anagach says:

      Tokyo Kaye is running a lovely anti-SNP piece on the use of public money to support events – like £0.15m for rock festivals. Maybe I missed the one where she covered £30m for building companies run by relatives of the council…

    26. One_Scot says:

      Rev, I think your crediting her ability too highly, I think she just opens her mouth and talks shit.

    27. ScottieDog says:

      Utterly mixed messages from McDonnell over the deficit. Is it meant to be this way or are they trying to appease both sides as usual.
      As ever Bill Mitchell is good at untangling the facts..
      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=31968

    28. ross says:

      This article doesn’t verify if 12k ie 22% of scottish primary school leavers are in the least deprived category is accurate. Nor do we know where the 6k figure from the daily record comes from. So i’m not sure we can say for sure Dugdale has got her sums wrong quite yet. The article above doesn’t have the information to disprove it.

    29. G H Graham says:

      96.8% of all statistics are, in all probability, estimates.

      And that’s a fact. Any questions?

    30. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      There is no breakdown of the figures re what type of school we are talking about.

      There is a percentage of kids sadly, who are so heavily handicapped that they never will learn. Then there are the kids with reading handicaps.

      Of course We don’t know if the raw 6,000 figures include these kids and if so, are they in the really impoverished sector.

      Totally meaningless drivvel from the Dug, as usual.

    31. Capella says:

      It’s bad enough that politicians lie. It’s extremely disappointing that the new Labour leadership lies. But what’s dysfunctional about the UK political system is that there is no scrutiny in the MSM.

      Thanks to Wings, we are aware of the daily deceptions. But that leaves the majority unable to read properly because they are fed lies, daily.

    32. caz-m says:

      Here’s an adding up question for you Kezia.

      How many leaders and deputy leaders have the Labour Party had in both Scotland and the UK since we have had a devolved government.

      Seriously, I would like to know the answer to that.

      No wonder Scottish Labour are finished. You don’t know what your purpose in life is anymore.

      You can’t go through life repeating the same old statement that the SNP are bad, people will start to think that you are a ravin lunatic.

    33. Alex Birnie says:

      Stu, not to defend “the Dug” – perish the thought! – but aren’t your figures a distortion? If there are 385200 kids at primary school, then in any one year, roughly one seventh will be leaving. I’ve no idea how many of these 55028.571 kids are in the “most deprived” category, but if it is anywhere near 12000, then her figures of 6000 and 50% aren’t so fanciful. Of course whether they are true is another matter……..

    34. Jim Thomson says:

      @Lanarkist – quick question for you in O/T

    35. Helena Brown says:

      Heedtracker got there first, what on earth do Teachers, well at least not those indoctrinated by EIS think about their profession being called useless, Nurses, Doctors being told they are doing a terrible job, or is money the answer to everything. If that is the case why are Labour, you know those nice people not arguing the case that the country needs more and the people they need ask are down in Westminster, but then haven’t they just agreed with them over cuts in Social Security etc till 2020, which is a long time for kids to wait to have money spent on their education, or perhaps they think the SNP can manufacture the stuff.

    36. DaveyM says:

      The Scottish Government also used the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation, which is measured in both deciles and quintiles. They’ll often report on the top and bottom groups in their headline statistics.

    37. frogesque says:

      The elephant in the room? Reading properly.

      How is properly defined? Hamlet’s soliloquy, Tolstoy War and Peace, Lawrence’s Women in Love, comprehension of a SLAB tweet or playgound graffiti?

      Dugdale (I’ve a whiney voice and talk shyte) should go back and examine some of her own interpretations. Yes, it is shameful that poor kids cannot read, write and comprehend basic language. For various reasons there will be failures sometimes as simple as poor children needing glasses or more complex issues like dyslexia but the overiding concern must be that empty bellies and poor damp housing do not make for a good start in life.

      Get a grip Kez, stop the bleating and start offering constructive solutions rather than berating overworked teachers for ‘failure’.

    38. caz-m says:

      Just hearing that her leader, Mr Corbyn, has dropped from his speech an apology on behalf of the Labour Party for taking the UK into an illegal war.

      He has also back tracked on wanting Tony Blair arrested for being a war criminal.

      Corbyn has dropped nearly every policy that he won the leadership election on.

      Labour liars, the whole damn lot of them.

    39. Bob Mack says:

      She is intelligent, but is a liar.Very simple.
      I hate how politicians display outrage or compassion for things they actually care very little about.

    40. sandycraig says:

      MACART at 9.15
      Perfectly sums it up for me. How these politicians ( not even sure that’s the right description ) can talk such absolute rubbish without checking the figures is beyond me.

      It happens every week at FMQs. Kezia makes a bold statement, and within 5 seconds Nicola debunks it and tells her the correct figures. Every week.

      Thought I saw Murph on tv last night, but naw it was someone called Simon, who just sniggered then proceeded to shout loudly to make his point.

      Made it for me right enough.

    41. Colin Hunter says:

      People should always bear in mind that Scotland gets her monies from Westminster, the amount calculated, at present by the Barnett formula. Like everything else under this Austerity driven right wing government, it is being reduced in real terms.
      Perhaps we should concentrate on that for a minute, and congratulate the SNP on what they have acheived, again, in REAL terms, during this period of enforced “austerity”. I think it is nothing short of marvellous, and is, in all probability, an awful lot better than we would have been under a puppet Labour administration in Holyrood!

    42. One_Scot says:

      For anyone who has not seen it. From the Revs twitter feed,

      https://archive.is/PRh8A

      Apparently this is the photo that the Scotsman was going to run with.

      It would make your blood boil, so it would.

    43. It doesn’t really matter who is the leader of the Labour party in Scotland, their M.S.M will still make them out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
      Yes Stuart, and many others, do a great job in debunking their nonsense, something a proper media should be doing, but of course we all know that will never happen.
      And that is, and will remain our greatest obstacle to whatever campaign we are involved in, whether its the Scottish elections, council elections, or the next independence referendum.
      The good news is that, certainly in our constituency in early canvassing returns, the electorate, for the most part, aren’t being fooled, especially former Labour voters who are still sticking with the S.N.P.
      No complacency mind, and with over seven months to go, still plenty of work to be done.

    44. One_Scot says:

      Surely the ‘Scotsman’ should be renamed the ‘Britman’.

    45. Bob Mack says:

      I worked for many years in the East end of Glasgow,where there is real deprivation. A lot of people in the area do what they can for themselves and their family.Solid Glaswegians ,up against it at every turn.

      There were also other families I came into contact with who were not so bothered by the “normal” things in life. Children were often declared too sick to go to school,so that they could stay at home and help mother,or father cope,either because they had an alcohol,drug or mental health problem.

      I often sat in houses, with mother lying on the couch,whilst their children ,on school days would be filling the washing machine,or going to the shops,or making the beds.These were not of Secondary school age,but rather Primary children.

      The needs of the parent often superceded the need for education. To emphasise the point,I saw this with my own eyes many many times in my 20 years in the area.

      Many children are not encouraged at home to view education as a route out of poverty. They attend school on occasion only because the parents get hassle from the school or education authorities re their childs attendance.
      Sad.

    46. Luigi says:

      One_Scot says:

      29 September, 2015 at 10:08 am

      For anyone who has not seen it. From the Revs twitter feed,

      https://archive.is/PRh8A

      Apparently this is the photo that the Scotsman was going to run with.

      It would make your blood boil, so it would.

      Indeed. That is truly despicable. I’ve seen quite a few deliberate misleading headlines/ pix in my time but this one takes the biscuit. You just look at it and think, ah another YES supporter misbehaving.

    47. Free Scotland says:

      Given that, strictly speaking, the word “kid” is the correct term for a young goat, Dugdale can claim to have spoken the truth when she said that 50% of the poorest kids leave our schools unable to read. Saying that would not negate the fact that the other 50% would leave our schools with exactly the same problem. Quite why she does not find it disturbing that our primary schools are frequented by young goats, or why teachers are attempting to teach goats to read in the first place is the really bizarre part.

      Who knows, maybe the expression “pigs might fly” is set to be supplanted by “goats might read.”

    48. Dan Huil says:

      Corbyn will, today in his lecture, declare his love for British nationalism.

    49. Grouse Beater says:

      I’d listen to Dugdale’s utterances if only I understood a word she says.

      Curiously, they still don’t make sense when I read them, yet I was educated at a poor school for poor kids.

    50. Les Wilson says:

      Well Jim Murphy will be proud of her, like him, she can lie about, well anything. Without batting an eye.

      I can hear Jim cheering ” I taught her well!”, it is only now
      that he will realise she has a natural ability, no teaching required.

    51. Tam Jardine says:

      One-Scot

      Just saw the Scotsman piece. Even by the Scotsman’s own standards it is appalling. I was expecting to get to the bottom of the piece and find a microdot that admitted the thug was a unionist but no.

      Any casual reading with that pic and he’s a yes!

      Can we sue them? It is a kind of defamation? They are not journalists- and it is no longer a newspaper in any meaningful sense.

      If I could be arsed complaining to ipso it would be lovely to see them justify such complete fucking propaganda. Up is down, black is white and the yessers were rioting in George Street.

      Anyone have a contact at RT? Might be interested in seeing how low the Scotsman has sunk

    52. Dr Jim says:

      Kezia’s right we must educate our kids better or they’ll grow up to be leaders of the Labour party who can’t say hard words like (Funillymundili)no that’s wrong eh (fundillymundally) still wrong

      Must be me I can’t even get it wrong right

      Dim Jim must have been a 50% kid

    53. Jambodavw says:

      I bet that every single one of those 6000 children are still more intelligent than Kezia Dugdale.

    54. Luigi says:

      Dan Huil says:

      29 September, 2015 at 10:30 am

      Corbyn will, today in his lecture, declare his love for British nationalism.

      Aye, he will be gently coaxing those thousands of English voters who defected to UKIP in May. “Come home to Labour”. Now, what about those thousands in Scotland who voted SNP for the first time? What’s the big juicy carrot going to be I wonder?

    55. Macart says:

      The Scotsman ‘newspaper’. An irony bypass in action and never knowingly honest.

    56. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ‘380,000 school kids leave primary school every year do they?
      suggest 380k divided by primary levels (7) is 54k.”

      Primary 7 doesn’t exist in isolation. If kids leave primary school unable to read they’ve been failed by seven years of education, not one. A typical child should be pretty comfortable with reading by the time they leave Primary 1.

    57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ross at 9.46

      The article above disproves it completely. Have you read it properly?

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @X_Sticks says: 29 September, 2015 at 9:29 am:

      “Bbc Kall Kaye (with nippy Louise) trying to bash the SNP over the £150k given to DF Concerts to help with the move to Strathallan.”

      This constant monstering of the SNP and independence by BBC Scotland is funded by taxing licence holders is that not not a far worse scandal?

      Then we have the cash handed out by councils throughout Scotland to such as the Edinburgh festival and such as the much trumpeted Glasgow Commonwealth Games. Not to mention all the hand outs to things classed as, “The Arts”, by councils all over the country.

      Now, if the so called, “Arts”, were all they are cracked up to be they would attract more than enough of a following to make them self financing.

      Here’s the real conclusion – in all cases these things all attract a following and even if, in themselves, they do not make profits, they bring benefits to the local communities in the shape of secondary business such as catering and accommodation.

      Here’s a wee story of a day my late wife and I spent in Edinburgh during the Festival. We were on the Royal Mile and several large coaches drew up and disgorged loads of Japanese tourists.

      One of them, a guide, stopped us and asked in excellent English. Could we tell them where they could get typical Scottish Food as they had arrived earlier than planned and had not booked a lunchtime meal but only booked an evening meal at their hotel.

      As usual I saw the chance of good laugh that would do no one any harm. So I told the guide we had many Scottish dishes, other than Haggis, and that most Local Scots who were not at home for lunch, would have what we Scots called, “A Cairie oot”.

      Just by chance we were standing right outside such a “Cairie oot”, provider. (We were outside a Baker’s shop”.

      So I motioned the guy into the shop and bought us three hot Forfar Bridies, We went outside and my wife and I rolled the poke back and started to eat our Bridie. The Japanese Guide followed suit and there was an instant reaction. He most certainly enjoyed the typical, “Scottish fare”. The local shop must have sold out of Bridies and coffee within minutes.

      That’s how subsidised festivals and other venues benefit local economies.

      Within a few minutes the Royal Mile was full of Japanese Tourists eating Bridies oot o pokes. Can’t say I noticed any of them complaining about this typical Scottish ordinary persons lunch time snack.

    59. Auld Rock says:

      Stu, Hell will have frozen over completely defying global warming before yoy get the truth. As I said in a previous post and these poor kids probably reside in a Cooncil Area controlled by, by you’ve got it SLAB.

      Auld Rock

    60. The Rough Bounds. says:

      What percentage of Ms. Dugdale’s 50% suffer from dyslexia? They will struggle with this problem all their lives no matter how much money is thrown at them.

      Some people are colour blind to a greater or lesser degree. They will find great difficulty in becoming artists, designers or photographers. Again, they will struggle with this problem all their lives no matter how much money is thrown at them.

      And sadly, some people just don’t have the intelligence required to prosper as individuals in this world. Give them a dollar and they will misplace it withing 30 seconds. You can help those people to lead as comfortable a life as possible, but you can’t fix what’s going on, or isn’t going on, in their heads.

      Not all problems are caused by poverty and not all problems can be overcome by spending money: much as we would wish it so.

      What percentage of our wealthiest kids leave school unable to read?

    61. Lou Nisbet says:

      @Macart
      ‘ they don’t lie to or mislead their own people’

      The three Unionist parties are/were involved in MURDERING their own people. So what on earth makes you think any of them would think twice about lying to them?

      Currently 90 people a month or so are dying possibly due to welfare cuts and sanctions. That’s more people every month than are murdered in Scotland in a year.

      I still find it unbelievable that 55% of people living in Scotland want nuclear weapons parked on their doorstep. With occasional drive throughs by ICBMs of Glasgow as a highlight.

      They must be mad. No other reason is needed for independence

    62. Grouse Beater says:

      Primary teacher: You’re top of the class.
      Grouse Beater: (Genuinely nonplussed) Me, Miss?
      Her: Yes, you. That means you win a prize.
      Me: Oh, good. Thank you.
      Her: It’s a book. What book would you like? The Broon’s Annual?
      Me: No, thanks.
      Her: How about The Adventures of Rupert Bear?
      Me: No. I’d like Herman Melville’s, ‘Moby Dick’.
      Her: Good grief! (Recovering) You do realise it’s a novel, there’s no pictures in it.
      Me: (Without sarcasm) I’ll just have to read it, then.

      (True story – Niddrie Primary – top of class, final year)

    63. Jim Mitchell says:

      Macart at 9:15am, you mean she’s just thick? You could be right.

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      @desimond says: 29 September, 2015 at 9:41 am:

      “100% of the richest Scottish Labour members cant lead”

      Yeah but! 100% of the richest Scottish Labour members are Cooncillors or MSPs and there’s even an odd, (very odd), MP among them.

    65. Macart says:

      @Lou Nisbet

      No one should be in any doubt by this point you’d have thought.

    66. heedtracker says:

      A typical child should be pretty comfortable with reading by the time they leave Primary 1.

      No, more like P 5 with P 7 ready for secondary school. Anyway its the local authorities that own primary schools, with Scots.gov control over all budget. So no doubt Dugdale/BBC will be monstering the actual councils with this 50% illiteracy as well.

    67. frankieboy says:

      News just in is that Dugdale has announced that as far as numeracy is concerned there are three categories of people; those who can count and those who can’t.

    68. Ken500 says:

      Can none of them count. She has a legal degree. What a pathetic liar trying to use poor children. A total vote loser.

      Did she not say 60,000? What the hell are they on.

      Labour/Unionists did not put in proper training for teachers (unless they specialise). The number of additional needs pupils have increased (inclusion) and better diagnosis. Lifestyle changes (the pill/better contraception 1960’s) from choice means are having their children later. There are more older parents. The most appropriate time to have children – biologically – is 18 – 25. Eggs and sperm. People are having their children later. There is an increase in additional needs pupils. Their talents can be realised by early, simple diagonosis by properly trained teachers. Computers can be an excellent aid. A seminar or on-line programme by proper experts can be beneficial. Lack of reading with ‘comprehension’ crosses all social classes.

      10% of teacher training should include ‘additional needs’ modules. This would help all teachers and pupils. Lack of ‘reading with comprehension’ crosses all social classes. There are late developers or those with special interests, Some geniuses can’t read and write ‘with comprehension’. Everything that has ever been invented is but someone on the autistic spectrum. All people’s brains are wired differently.

      All additional needs pupils have relatives, supporters and carers. Teachers should keep the parents/carers informed to give them knowledge. Some Local Authorities do not honour their statutory requirement. Labour/Unionists are annoying the electorate.

      Scotland has one of the best education system in the world. ONS. An honourable record for invention. It shaped the modern world. Scotland was the first countries in the worked to have free tertiary (Church) education.

    69. Macart says:

      @Jim Mitchell

      Heh, no I don’t think they’re thick, anything but. They are however very slow learners and glacially slow to comprehend what’s happening around them. They insist that parliament and party make decisions for the people. They failed to notice the tide of change before the referendum had already started to turn. The referendum was where people saw they could make a difference, be empowered, direct the politicians and take ownership of their government again.

      And if politicians didn’t listen? Then we use our reacquired empowerment and all the lessons we learnt during the referendum to punish them and we’ll keep on punishing them, using their own system to do so, until they dae as thir telt. 😉

    70. X_Sticks says:

      @Nana

      So, Charmichael isn’t going to be able to dodge a court appearance. Haha. Deserves to be grilled.

      Does this mean the Orkney Four will need further funding? Anyone know?

    71. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I think the reason the likes of Dippity Dug and John McDonnell make their anti-SNP comments is – they know they will get away with it.

      It is all very well the SNP PR department issuing an immediate rebuttal, the MSM does not have to print, or broadast that rebuttal. The Unionist parties are aware of this, their lap dogs in the MSM will go with the original statement, no matter how out of context or downright wrong it is. The same lap dogs can then be trusted to ignore the SNP follow-up.

      You notice it all the time in printed articles, where something is alleged, about some person or organisation. Any rebuttal comes right at the end, and is, most-commonly: “So and so was unavailable for comment”. In a lot of cases, no comment was asked for in any case.

      In 21st century United Kingdom, I think we truly are in “The Year of the Sex Olympics”. Google that and you will see what I mean.

    72. PugDug says:

      There’s been an awful lot of comment on this subject and I haven’t had time to read it all. So if I’m repeating what others have said, forgive me. What the Kez said was that these pupils left school unable to read PROPERLY. As far as I am aware there is no recognised standard for, or means of measuring, “proper” reading. That single fact gives her infinite scope to choose whatever figure she likes with impunity.

      Take my case as an example. I left school with a bunch of highers and SYS passes. I gained an honours degree at uni and followed that up with a postgraduate diploma. One of the education system’s successes you could say. However, I don’t always read accurately. I’m just a normal bloke, I don’t have any reading disorder, and yet I occasionally stumble over the odd word as, I’m sure, does everybody.

      Now dear Kez could imply from that that I, and others like me, cannot read properly and BINGO! you have a headline: 100% OF SCOTS PUPILS LEAVE SCHOOL UNABLE TO READ PROPERLY!!!!!

      Maybe we should be praising Kez for her admirable restraint?

    73. Nana Smith says:

      @X_Sticks

      I would think funding will need to be increased. I did see a notice a week or so ago, will see if I can find it.

      Anyhow here is a summary report.

      http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/9/1490/Timothy-Morrison-and-others-v-Alistair-Carmichael-MP-and-Alistair-Buchan

    74. David McDowell says:

      Kezia Dugdale may have done all that work to “get her numbers” – or she may have just plucked a number out of her arse and blurted it out on TV.

      Given her amateurish, gaffe-ridden performance so far as manager of the Scottish branch office, I think we can safely say it was the latter.

      Even the Labour party rank and file called the Murphy/Dugdale double act: “Thick and Thin”.

    75. Tackety Beets says:

      I’m sorry not read all the posts yet.

      SLab / Libdums seam to over look the fact that their continued massaging of figures on NHS & Education to SNP Bash is also having a detrimental effect on the moral of teachers & Nurses etc

      Perhaps this is shown by problems recruiting staff for Durness, Raasay, ABZ etc etc
      For me these issues are more complex but constant staff bashing DISNAE help.

      Any employer will tell you constantly telling your staff off for the things they do wrong can be very counterproductive unless you PRAISE them for the things they do well.

      RS phone in , had to switch off.
      This should have been done tomorrow , after Scot Gov sets out the reasoning behind their decision.Then everyone is armed with the facts behind the decision & consequently more able to pass judgement.

    76. Almannysbunnet says:

      The question she has to answer is how did someone who left school unable to count got to be branch manager of the labour party in Scotland. Of course being able to lie for SLAB probably trumps any other talent you may lack.

    77. heedtracker says:

      I still find it unbelievable that 55% of people living in Scotland want nuclear weapons parked on their doorstep. With occasional drive throughs by ICBMs of Glasgow as a highlight.

      Driving Trident nuke missiles back and fore through Glasgow to reload nuke subs in Faslane is just the tip of the UKOK nuke war nightmare strategy.

      Trident gives the UK a place at the captain’s table of world powers, next to the US if red and blue toryboys behaving themselves. Which is great for rule Britannia UK establishment but its nuke WMD’s that are the enablers for warmongers like Bomber Bliar, ofcourse the MOD.

      UK nukes can never be used but its vital for world power strategists. They could nuke Argentinian cities if they invade and look like taking control of Falklands but who would in the UK would vote for a UK.gov that had completely destoyed a city like

      http://www.lonelyplanet.com/argentina/buenos-aires

      in minutes with a Trident submarine sitting offshore Chile?

      If Labour want to get back in power, every last one of the MP’s that voted for war with Iraq alongside Bomber Blair and Crash Broon have got to go.

      Scotland got rid of the lot in May. Ian Murray’s a red tory from Morningside and ofcourse he wants Trident nukes in Scotland.

    78. Gerry says:

      OT – Legal bid over MP Alistair Carmichael’s election to proceed
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-34390705

    79. Grouse Beater says:

      The obvious riposte to Dugale is, ‘Well, an inability to read properly didn’t do you any harm- oh, hold on’.

      Have a good day, Wingers. Am off to earn another crust of bread.

    80. Tobias Hendry says:

      The stats show that in 2014 81% of P7 pupils from the most deprived category were performing either well or very well which means 19% aren’t.
      6000 is 19% of 31578 so for the 6000 to be correct using these figures it would mean that 57% of the estimated 55000 P7 pupils are in the deprived category. This doesn’t sound right.

    81. Thepnr says:

      This post is a bit long winded but is my take on where Kezia gets her numbers from.

      The statistics for the most recent Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy 2014 can be found here:

      http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/04/7639/downloads#res476024

      “There are three deprivation categories reported in the SSLN: the least deprived 30 per cent of datazones, the middle 40 per cent and the most deprived 30 per cent.
      These are based on the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation (SIMD) 2012 and pupils are assigned to a category according to their home postcode.”

      The pupils are accorded a “grade” according to their score in a number of tests. For reading:

      Performing very well at the level. Score of 80% or more.
      Performing well at the level. Score between 60% and 79%.
      Working within the level. P7 Score between 40% and 59%.
      Not yet working within the level. P7 Score less than 40%.

      For the most deprived 30% the scores in 2014 for P7 pupils were as follows:

      Performing very well at the level 34%
      Performing well at the level 38%
      Working within the level 27%
      Not yet working within the level 1%

      With a 95% confidence level the 27% figure above is between 24 and 30% and the 1% figure is between 1 and 2%.

      Taking the Revs figure of 385,200 and dividing by 7 so as we only consider P7 pupils gives a number approx 55,000 of which the “most deprived” total is 16,500.

      Taking the worst possible result of 30% “Working within the level” plus 2% “Not yet working within the level” gives a total of 32%. And 32% of 16,500 is 5280.

      These figures are a bit rough and ready but it certainly appears that the 30% who scored between 40 and 59 in the tests are being classed as “unable to read properly” according to Kezia.

      Just more distortion of the truth it seems to suit an SNP Bad agenda.

    82. John Morris says:

      On 22/9 I emailed Kezia Dugdale that I was surprised to hear her say on TV that 50 per cent of Scottish children from deprived areas left school unable to read. I asked her to refer me to the statistics upon which she made this statement.
      On 23/9 she replied referring me to a Save the Children report headed ” Read on Get on” which was attached to her email. In particular she referred me to page 6 of this report.
      On page 6 were these statements-

      1. 1 in 5 poor children are not reading well by age 11.
      2. Over half of children from most deprived areas leave primary school not reading very well.
      3. At P4 a quarter of children living in deprived areas are not reading well.
      4. By S2 a quarter of children in deprived areas are not reading well.

      These statements were based on figures upto 2012.

      I replied to her that in my opinion none of these statements equated with her assertion that 50 per cent of deprived children in Scotland left school unable to read and asked her if I was not getting something right.To date I have not had a reply. Perhaps when she returns from the Labour Party conference I will hear from her.
      I post this as it may throw some light on the matter for Wings readers.

    83. Marie Clark says:

      By jings Nana, you’re on the ball with Carmichael. I’m amazed at how you do all of these links most of the times.

      Well done you, I have to take the bunnet off to you.

    84. muttley79 says:

      I have noticed that Kezia Dugdale never apologises when she gets things wrong, whether on purpose or just through incompetence remains to be seen. It is the Jackie Baillie approach to politics writ large. Dugdale jumped on Carmichael’s smear about Sturgeon at the general election. Even after it was completely discredited, Dugdale did not have the grace and integrity to apologise, instead she said it was what Sturgeon wanted to happen anyway! A cowardly careerist is what Kezia Dugdale is. I feel sorry for Mr Dugdale.

    85. handclapping says:

      OT but data just in!

      Carmichael for his own good should tell the LibDems to bugger off and apply for the Chiltern Hundreds. He probably only allowed the case to go ahead as he would have been assured by his QC that the case would have been thrown out in law. It hasn’t and now goes to proof. Get out son while you can still say you haven’t a criminal conviction.

    86. Gerry says:

      Still waiting on the full text of the opinion, which is overdue to appear here http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=eb9eeea6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
      I imagine that Carmichael is starting to seriously consider his options. He certainly would not have expected this, and I would imagine that he would now be feeling vulnerable on a personal level. Keep in mind that this guy has to potentially answer to the law society too, should this not go his way. Better to stand down rather than risk that I would think.
      He might just go.

    87. Iain More says:

      I am more convinced than ever that the Dugdales left the maternity ward with the wrong baby.

    88. A2 says:

      Any bets on how long before JC is fed this misinformation as fact and repeats it?

    89. Marie Clark says:

      Thanks for the link Nana, you’re one amazing lady.

      By the way folks, any news on how the Carmichael fundraiser is going?

      Surely now this obnoxious liar has to consider his position. He obviously was pompous enough to think that it would be thrown out. Petitioners manage to raise thousands to pay for the case and now he will have to come to court and defend himself.

      Squeaky bum time.

    90. snode1965 says:

      There is a glaring hole in argument put forward by Dugdale. She assumes that all of these 6000 kids come from poor backgrounds, which is rubbish. My youngest has struggled with reading her whole life and comes from an average income home.

    91. Nana Smith says:

      @Marie Clark

      Here’s the fundraiser for the Orkney case.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/story

      and did you now labour quietly voted for trident renewal yesterday without a vote. good old democracy labour style.

      What a new leader Corbyn is turning out to be, weak and unprincipled and a liar to boot.

    92. ann says:

      I remember many moons ago when I was at school there was one girl in the class who I would think attended high school about 5 days in total.

      I think there is the case some children just do not want to learn no matter how hard a teacher tries.

      You can take a child to school, but he / she don’t want to learn, there is nothing that a teacher can do.

    93. Marie Clark says:

      Nana, I didnae make masel very clear, whit I really meant was the fundraiser on behalf of the bold Carmichael. You know the one with all the lies about the SNP.

      Aye, I see on some of the other threads that Labour sneakily voted through the Trident thingy.

      Nae surprise there, chancers, the lot o them. Corbyn must be a real disappointment for some folk who had hoped for Labour to turn the corner.

    94. Valerie says:

      SLab just don’t get that for at least half the population of Scotland, when they bray something, we think, that will be bollox, I wonder what the correct figure is?

      Bob Mack @10.23 has it nailed. Not making the grade has a variety of complex reasons, and to lump it in one figure is upsetting to lots.

      Truancy will play a key role, and this is also complex. Young carers, poor parenting, behavioural issues. Truancy is referred to the Children’s Panel. Not in any way to punish the child, but to compel all the relevant adults to ensure that child is getting every chance. Extra resources can be put in etc.

      The appointed person, much criticised by religious groups, and others, is an innovative way to again pinpoint early as possible, that adults are letting a child down.

      If you knew how many of Glasgows children struggle, and are badly served, you would despair.

      Dugdale does nothing to help denigrating hard pressed
      professionals.

      I want a good opposition, we all do, but this ill informed sound bite just does damage.

    95. Nana Smith says:

      @Marie Clark

      Oh that one

      https://www.gofundme.com/yh3pe7nc

      it’s doing really well LOL

    96. Bill Fraser says:

      Here she goes again She thinks of a number and doubles it,or trebles it ,or quadruples it.Oh what the heck,it’s all JEST work

    97. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Rev you hud better start ah crowdfunder fur oor oxygen tanks, these hud oor breath replies ur becoming to frequent.

      Think of the Health an Safety of your readers,we dont have a Wings over Scotland safety manual fur nuthin. lol

    98. Lesley-Anne says:

      Dunno about 50% of the poorest kids not being able to read when they leave Primary school but I know of ONE politician that can NOT count! 😀

    99. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. Press Association:-BBC’s Economics Editor Robert Peston tipped to join ITV !
      http://tinyurl.com/nls9wxo

    100. Clootie says:

      …sorry I stopped reading at “Kezia claimed”

    101. Tinto Chiel says:

      £7170, Nana? Snottalot, is it?

      That might just get Fozzy a QC for a couple of days in court, if he’s lucky.

      Dearie, dearie me! Looks liked he’s going to be dragged in to face some rather awkward questions. This is rather unexpected and hopeful.

      I hope the petitioners let us know if they need any more funds.

    102. dramfineday says:

      Ronnie at 1.27 re oxygen tanks, snap!

      And handclapping, the comment I spoke to you about on Saturday, when you nearly caused me serious internal injuries whilst in the RIE was, “Somebody give Kezia a dandelion. She’ll get more sense out of puffing it”

      Not much changed since May then!

    103. ArtyHetty says:

      I wonder if kez just wants kids to read so they can pick up the daily record or the metro or other rags and read the headlines (lies) and the utter crap that they print, and of course the incessant, SNP bad, even though they are doing a pretty good job for the good of the people of Scotland, very much against the odds.

      I met an old labour friend ( who reluctantly voted yes!) other day, who refuses to use the internet and reads the graun cover to cover. He says that he does not like ” any kind of nationalism”, ie hates the SNP. Oh and he also thinks that climate change will be the thing to destroy us all, not nukes, so seems ok to have them on the Clyde, next to his original home city.

      There is no getting through to some, they actually choose to blinker themselves, even with all the info out there, on tap. ????

    104. HandandShrimp says:

      Illiteracy and unable to read well are not actually the same thing. The number of illiterate children will be quite small and more indicative of genuine learning difficulties than lack of education.

      Reading well is a marker defined by what most 12 year old children are comfortable reading. This will almost certainly be affected by access to books at home, whether the children were read to by their parents etc., and whether they were encouraged to read and do their reading homework when in primary one and two. It is no coincidence that those in the most deprived categories have the worst education attainment statistics not only in Scotland but every other country too. Poverty engenders poverty. Schools can certainly do amazing things but they can’t do everything.

      I would question whether Scotland’s performance in this area is poor compared to other countries. I don’t know why but I feel sure Kezia would counter that every country should be better than the average.

    105. Vonny says:

      Yawn… Wake me up before SHE go-goes…

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      I hate to say this and at the risk of being highly unpopular, but the two statements are NOT inconsistent, unless actually put together in one statement with a connector, as in “50% of the poorest kids, that’s 6,000”.

      “50% of the poorest kids leave our schools unable to read”.

      “The fact that under this SNP Government more than 6000 children leave primary school unable to read properly is shameful”

      Both could be individually true. Sorry.

    107. Marie Clark says:

      Thanks Nana, I see it’s doing wonderfully well, good oh. If I were Carmichael, I’d be resigning pronto A to avoid criminal charges and B to avoid gigantic legal bill.

      Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply, I had to take go and get new tyres on the car. Ouch, that wiz sair.

    108. Gary45% says:

      Cheers Stu, Once again you tear the Labour/Unionists a new one.
      You are a legend.

    109. Ken500 says:

      If a majority of voters in Scotland vote for Parties who are committed to getting rid of Trident, Independence for Scotland, no illegal wars , elderly home care, prescriptions for the sick, funding for Universities/Education, creating apprenticeships, mitigating ‘room tax’ welfare cuts, minimum pricing for alcohol, increased nursery, NHS/Police/Fire funding. Reducing APT to increase direct flights. Appropriatev Health & Safety and tax for the Oil sector and committed to Capital Projects ie Borders Railway, AWPR, New Forth Road Bridge, V & A at Dundee, improved connection between Glasgow and Edinburgh. To try and make Scotland an equal, fairer and happier country. Then the Scottish Gov has a legitimate mandate to get rid of Trident etc. including Independence.

      Try and keep nursery classroom sizes down and have adequate training for additional needs and support staff. Many schools have a base. Ensure local authorities keep to their commitments. A module of additional needs training for teachers would make a massive difference and keeping families informed. Some children are secondary school before information comes to light which can lead to a diagnoses It is nothing to do with intelligence it has to do with how information is relayed to the brain/mind. Families/teachers can get stressed about it.

      Some people will never read ‘with comprehension’ or pass a GCSE or Higher in Maths but are genius in Maths at Uni level. Or have a special interest, language Music, sports or artistic talents. Computers are a great aid to learn for reading and writing for comprehension. Many pupils benefit from being taught pictorially, especially maths subjects. Secondary pupils are getting a lot of stressful examination every other month as each module finishes. They can resit but if they don’t pass, they can’t sit the exam. Pupils used to be able to swot up every six months or so at end of
      each term. Families/teachers can get stressed about it.

    110. Gary45% says:

      I reckon McTwatnen, is behind the gross stupidity coming from the Labour party.( He is never off the TV) on the I-Player, Dipity must be star struck.
      Dipity and the wrinkly old FUD (corbyn) must be getting fed this shi* from some source.

      If the Bliarites, can make them look stupid enough, then the Bliarites will get their leader in through the back door.
      Or maybe they are that STUPID.!!

    111. Maurice Duffy says:

      We need to come up with an effective counter to Labour’s/London’s methods.
      They cannot be as idiotic as they appear – they seem that way to the politically aware because we question the “facts” they present us with, but so many voters will accept their lies because “They couldn’t put it in the paper if it isn’t true”.
      These are the people we need to reach, and we are failing.
      The NATIONAL is an excellent newspaper, but far too serious for many people. What we really need is a Redtop with a conscience – most people buy papers for entertainment rather than education and absorb propoganda in passing. Until we address this issue, pro-Union/anti-SNP lies will always have greater traction than the truth. The same applies to Television.
      Despite the frequent use of the word “("Tractor" - Ed)”, most NO voters did so because they thought it was for the best – they just did so on the basis of false information, and if they are exposed to the truth they will make better choices next time.

    112. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ken500.

      You typed,
      Some people will never read ‘with comprehension’ or pass a GCSE or Higher in Maths but are genius in Maths at Uni level

      I had to give up maths, physics, and so on, at the end of 2nd Year, because I achieved 29% in the final Maths exam of the year. That was down to a cr@p maths teacher. Four years later, she told my younger brother that he “was the bane of my life” and wouldn’t amount to anything.

      He got his merchant navy officer’s ticket, then went on to get a Degree in Engineering at Dundee Uni. All so he could stick two fingers up to Granny.

      I went to college in my late 20’s to do Electrical and Electronic Engineering, at SCOTEC (ONC) level. I was rather chuffed to pass the Level 3 Maths, which was pitched between an O Level and a Higher but leaning towards application, rather than ‘pure’ maths. Level 4 Maths was another matter. I just couldn’t handle the concept of ‘imaginary numbers’ – and don’t ask about integration and differentiation!

      My own experiences say to me that it is down to the quality of teaching. If the teacher can create an interest in the subject, it becomes easier to teach.

      Children’s brains are like sponges; give them the opportunity and they will suck up all they can.

    113. Cotter says:

      Surely ,it is only possible to have one thing as a priority ?Otherwise ,it would no longer be a priority , it would become part of ,or an item on a list.

    114. If labour think that the S.N.P. Giving tax payers money to T. In the park is wrong how about them giving tax payers money to P.F. I. ? Also Kezia talking about people leaving school unable to read how about her friend 9years at university with no degree ?

    115. Robert says:

      I’m not going to try to support the “50%” claim – it’s an obvious nonsense.

      But I worry too about:

      “There are currently 385,200 children in primary-school education in Scotland. If we’re talking about 6,000 or so, that’s just under 1.6%.”

      The 385,200 are in 7 classes, P1 to P7. So about 55,000 leave school every year. 6,000 of these is 9%. Or am I missing something?

    116. Effijy says:

      Dipity Dug should thank her lucky stars if there are 6,000 kids out there who can read well.

      They will be her best bet of finding someone Dumb enough
      to vote for her or her lying, deceiving, corrupt party.

      Dipity Dug Dunce!

      She can only ramp up her distorted figures by 10 as any greater
      a number requires her to remove her tights and gain access the
      the little piggy that ate roast beef.

      Did anyone else get a disgusting picture of David Cameron when I mentioned that Little Piggy?

    117. velofello says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon: Calculus? Loved it! Corbyn and Dugdale? Easy odds, losers.

    118. Sandy Henderson says:

      Is Kezia one of the 6000 with poor reading ability, judging by the fact that she makes so many ‘mistakes’.

    119. Ghillie says:

      macart@9.15am Agree totaly!!!

      Ok, so how does Kesia feel about the education she received?

      A fair few folk have, quite rightly, expressed concern around her grasp of numeracy and her apparent difficuly with accurately repeating simple and clearly laid out facts and using them correctly in a reasoned arguement.

      Her former teachers must look on with horror.

      (Shoot! I didn’t want to sound so mean! BUT SERIOUSLY!)
      PS I know MY spelling leaves alot to be desired!

    120. Nikkii says:

      Wouldn’t you have to take the 6000 leaving primary school as a percentage of all the kids leaving primary school? How many kids of the 385,000 odd are in P7? I hate it if she’s right…

    121. Craig Banks says:

      I think it is important to remember that Kezia started off claiming that “almost 50% of the poorest kids in the country can’t read…”. This was total bollocks of course. The rest of her assertions were merely an attempt to justify the nonsense. With regards to the 6000, her argument is so vague that Stu’s analysis of what she is saying is spot on. We will probably never know.

    122. Surely one child leaving school unable to read or write is a disgrace and instead of arguing over statistics the government should address the issue



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