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Closing the attainment gap

Posted on May 28, 2016 by


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    1. 28 05 16 08:56

      Closing the attainment gap | speymouth

    95 to “Closing the attainment gap”

    1. Ken500 says:

      More unionist/(non)Green lies.

      55% of Scots enter HE by the age of 30. 20.9% starting at further education College.and 34.1% going straight to University after England 46,6% entered FE. More people people in Scotland enter FE. (Without the figures for those over 30 year old).

      In England they just called all Colleges – Universities. .

      The Labour/Unionists were mean-testing student loans on household incomes. Students of households of average earning couldn’t get a full loan (paid back) to go to University. The Scottish Gov has changed that but the figures have not come through. They are working on older figures.

      People can learn a trade or skills at College which give them a comfortable living. Often better than University. Or they can go on to University – giving open access. These figures are not included.

      There could be a difference between the numbers of young people as a percentage of the population between countries.

      There are also 100,000 funded apprentice places. Are those included?

      A higher number of people in Scotland enter FE than the rest of the UK. There is no attainment gap by comparison.

      Wealthy students from elsewhere (20%?) are getting a subsidised education in Scotland. The money could be better spent on the early years, keeping class sizes down, teacher training on additional needs. It would help all pupils. More (part-time) courses/places would help vulnerable people.

      The 3rd rate unelected rejects are an affront to Democracy. A few Professors are an affront to Democracy.

    2. Dunks says:

      Uncannily like a wee Gordy Broon!

    3. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Yes, the inherent contradictions of the working-class loyalist Tory voter are truly a wonder to behold!

      I am beginning to think, though, that in the bigger picture two opposing trends may possibly be getting conflated. At the last election, I suspect that a lot of Tories came out of the woodwork, partly inspired by Buffalo Gal, but mainly by the tax implications. After all, Brian Taylor on the BBC kept on telling us relentlessly that tax’n’spend was the issue. Aye, right. For the well-to-do, maybe. (Including BBC presenter types.) Those Tory voters who were previously far too sniffy to bother to vote for Holyrood, that “glorified parish council” as Tony Blair put it, now sense an imminent danger to their pockets and suddenly turn out in their droves.

      Whereas many traditional Labourites, I reckon, just couldn’t see the point of bothering to shift themselves for Labour’s current shedload of inchoate numpties, so just stayed at home and watched the telly or painted their toenails or whatever instead.

      So the situation may be somewhat more complex than can tidily be fitted in one witty cartoon. But the issue remains, even if at one step removed. If you don’t stand up for yourself, you can get trampled on. As the wee man said: “You may not take an interest in politics, but it may take an interest in you”.

      (Which goes for the EUref too, despite what that recent poster on the previous thread was advising. Abstaining is a mug’s game.)

    4. Ghillie says:


      Is THAT why folk vote Tory??

      I did wonder = )

    5. paul gerard mccormack says:

      spot on chris.
      How’s about unionist media closing the gap between the political spin and the reality?
      eg on radio four 6 oclock news last night. and this is journalism. shocking. un believable.
      ‘the snp have been stopped in scotland’.- they get away with this by saying ‘some may say’.
      this is complete and utter

    6. Capella says:

      Posted this on last thread. The motives of the Sutton Trust are suspect so the conclusions may be skewed to suit an agenda. Chris sums it up perfectly!

      Scottish working class children less likely to go to Uni than rich children – a “shocking access gap” which has not narrowed in 20 years, a report has found. BBC and Scotsman horrified.

      But actually more of them go into higher education. But that’s not the point says the Sutton Trust who produced the report.
      Sutton Trust? Well their Board is full of Bankers and Financiers. Isn’t it kind of them to take an interest in our poor children who don’t pay tuition fees – yet.

    7. Morgatron says:

      Many years ago , no one learned a trade at college apprentices were taught in their place of work. Surely its time for the SNP to say to these twats, not everyone wants to go to Uni , whos gonna fix my car, whos gonna cut my hair , whos gonna fix the roads, fuck sake what are they wanting, 90% uni attainment ? They make my blood boil.. Oh great cartoon Chris as always.

    8. Ken500 says:

      The Unionists have destroyed the UK/EU/world economy. Killing and maining millions of innocent people. Bankrupted Britain. They are sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. They are fraudsters, liars, child molesters and murderers.. Most of them should be in prison. They make the Laws and break the Law and do not enforce the Law. Use the Official secrets Act to conceal their crimes.

      Mundell must have walked everywhere at the election. Or cheated and made a false declaration on his electoral expenses again. He undeclared £500 on his 2010 expenses and had to ask a court for exemption for an unfortunate ‘error’. A Tory/Unionist not being able to count is par for the course.

      Mundell spent £45,000. (No transport expenses?), Labour spent £18,000, SNP spent £14,000. Mundell won by a few hundred votes and a few thousand notes. The (non) Greens let him through. Colluding with Unionists to waste taxpayers money. They mucked up the Indy/Ref, mucked up the GE and mucked up the Holyrood Election. Mucky little muckers.

    9. Robert Peffers says:

      Chris, as usual, hits a nail on the head but his works usually have more subtle overtones. I saw this current effort just after reading the on-line political news.

      Here’s a related item:-

      Blair warns of Corbyn, “Experiment”. Tony thinks, “It would be very dangerous for the UK to give Jeremy power”. This from the guy who took the UK into illegal wars.

      He also imagines people dislike him more for winning three general elections for Labour than for taking us into illegal wars.


      As Chris so well illustrates, it always amazes me how these total numpties are unable to see the real truth through their own warped prejudices.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      I am the only one of my group of friends in Glasgow Cowcaddens who went on to higher education.The rest got into trades or manual jobs because they wanted to earn more than study. A lot of them “dogged” school regularly to find casual work for the day,which at the time was easy enough.

      Education is a right ,but is also often a choice.

      Chris’ cartoon perfect illustrates the position of ordinary voters supporting a party totally at odds with their lives.The Union is more important than anything else. No thought,no consideration, no sense.

    11. X_Sticks says:

      That hit the marque Chris.

    12. Ken500 says:

      Educational spend per pupil is higher in Scotland than the rest of the UK

      Without Trident/illegal wars, banking/gov fraud and tax evasion, more could be spent on education and public services.

      Westminster Unionists sacrifice public services for their vanity. Deluded. ‘Psycho bastards’ according to the Tories.

    13. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 28 May, 2016 at 8:20 am:

      ” The Unionists have destroyed the UK/EU/world economy. Killing and maining millions of innocent people. Bankrupted Britain.”

      Whoa! There! Ken500.

      First of all the unionists have not destroyed, “Britain” – just some of the parts of the UK bit of Britain. Secondly the UK is not bankrupted – just the Westminster Establishment controlled bits of the UK.

      They have indeed killed millions and are indeed still killing off the old, sick, disabled and poor. However, the way they are doing that is by transferring wealth from the pockets of those multitudes of unfortunates into the much fewer pockets of the top 10% of the wealthiest people and of large business’.

      The plain statistical facts show that, far from all suffering austerity together as their propaganda insists, those wealthy 10% have more than doubled their own personal wealth.

      You cannot either be bankrupted nor suffering austerity measures when you more than double your wealth and the only place that wealth is coming from is from those who are suffering their Unionist Government austerity measures.

      It is the poor and the UK government that are in financial trouble. It is not those wealthy right wing people who, BTW, are the ones who are shareholders in the big business’ that are tax avoiding.

    14. carjamtic says:

      Two short planks


      Brilliant Chris. 🙂

    15. Capella says:

      O/T Thought you’d like to see this item from RT even though they do call us a UK region!

      Scotland opens doors to more Syrian refugees than any other UK region

    16. Grouse Beater says:

      BBC Scotland would have us believe our education system is in disarray, pupils abandoned. Their journalists read the morning papers for their topics, and then regurgitate what they read as if news.

      Video of the main group working to stop independence here:

    17. Gary45% says:

      Nice one Chris.

    18. Almannysbunnet says:

      Bullseye every time. Brilliant, funny, sad.

    19. Ken500 says:

      In 2011 the ConDems cut £6Billion+ a year from education funding.

    20. I am afraid we can do nothing about he unequal education gap until we abolish the poor.

    21. Craig P says:

      That cartoon could be my sister… she voted Tory though because she is a British nationalist. Even though she admires Nicola Sturgeon, hardly has two pennies to rub together, and many Conservative policies are against her interests, that is what it boils down to. The Daily Mail told her so.

    22. Famous15 says:

      We are discussing “apples” but the BBC are giving us facts about”pears” and doing it with such confident and disapproving tones that your perception of reality just crumbles.

      However they overdo the propaganda as we observe real life and instinctively we know things are never as bad as they say. Often our common sense tells us they just lie.

    23. Ken500 says:

      The House of Lords is an unelected talking shop, with absolutely no powers. It can delay a Bill twice for a certain length of time that is all. The Tories intend cutting this powers.

      If Scotland keeps on voting SNP/Independence in increased numbers. They can’t block another Indy Referendum because the people are sovereign under Scottish Law, forever. If Westminster tries to change that it dissolves the UK Union. Under the terms of the Act of Union representatives of both countries had to agree. Scotland had the right to a separate legal system and to be treated equal in the Union. That has not happened.

      Scottish resources have been secretly and illegally taken. It has been kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. McCrone, Thatcher. Scotland has been misrepresented in Westminter by political Parties not majority voted for in Scotland. Westminster Unionist have tried to destroy the Scottish economy with unfair taxes imposed on major industry. Not applicable to any other major industry. Blair/Brown illegally and secretly lied and embezzled Scottish resources resulting in people dying. Then covered it up under the Official secrets Act.

      The Unionists cheated, lied and broke electoral rules during the Independence Referendum, GE and Holyrood Elections.

    24. Ken500 says:

      The rest of Britain (the majority) is in £Trillions of debt and rising. Only the US has more debt (pro rata).

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 28 May, 2016 at 8:59 am:

      ” … Their journalists read the morning papers for their topics”.

      Why would these, misnamed, “Journalists”, who wouldn’t recognise a journal if it fell off the shelf onto their head, bother reading other newspaper’s bent offerings?

      All any of them needs do is click on a few selected favourites, or bookmarks, on their chosen computer browser. For example :-


      Anyone can do it, Grouse Beater. I haven’t watched TV or read dead tree news for years. A habit I picked up while working next to the Crypto expert in Rosyth Dockyard’s Radar, Radio and Sonar Workshop.

      Right next to what I worked on was a communications radio that was fixed tuned to a host of World News Agency frequencies. The Cryptographic, (coded), signals were feeding a teletype machine that could produce either printed pages, ticker tape or punched cards but usually output to a CRT monitor.

      As news broke it was broadcast to subscribers by the News agencies. It was how the newspapers got their news before printing it.

      Nowadays they don’t even encrypt the news but have websites that anyone can access.

      So there you go : –

      Choose a UK news agency from that above list, bookmark it and get your news fresh from an News Agency just like the dead tree press and broadcasters do.

    26. Les Wilson says:

      There is a Unionist strategy here, thing tanks, institutions, group like the Sutton one, infiltration of Scottish everything.
      They are improving their position across the board and pop up when required to underline the too wee,too stupid mantra that they love to push.

      They are the enemies of Scotland, they are in prominent positions everywhere, working against the interests of Scotland’s democracy
      to ensure we never gain ground, anywhere.
      They are the cancer in our midst.

    27. Socrates MacSporran says:

      This current fixation with kids going on to Higher Education (university and college) is a load of shite.

      I am in my 70th year. When I turned 65, I organised a reunion of my old school class. We had come together, in 1958, as 1A at a Senior Secondary. We had to take Latin, as having Latin was then a requirement of university entrance – we were, even at 11 and 12 on the basis of our Qualifying exam, expected to go places.

      Aged 65, yes, we had several university graduates, including two university professors, but, the ones who had gone furthest, were the ones who had left school early:

      The guy who went down the pit, aged 15, as an apprentice electrician, and who had retired a millionaire, with his own IT company, which he had started

      The guy who left at 16 to go into banking, and then, when his grade at the bank was done away with, used his redundancy to buy into a struggling firm, turn it round, before selling-out and making millions.

      The guy who left in Fifth Year to join the RAF and made it to the higher ranks, before retiring on a terrific pension, which he invested while he worked in SAudi for an aerospace company and made millions.

      The guy who also left in Fifth Year to go into the car industry and now runs his own specialist design company.

      The girl who left at 16 to become a secretary, then re-trained and became a hot-shot lawyer.

      Yes, we had one or two teachers, a local lawyer and a couple of vets , but, the ones who really went out there and did things were the ones who passed on university.

      My old senior secondary has several distinguished former pupils, but, the most-distinguished were the ones who made their own way, rather than going to university.

      Higher Education is not for everyone, that;s the lesson I have learned.

    28. Tartan Tory says:

      Chris – Nail – Head.

      Perhaps another one with Senga holding a folded red-top and saying, “Am no votin fur the SNP till the bible tells me tae”.

    29. AhuraMazda says:

      I went to University from an extremely poor background. I was a socialist back then and believed in free education for all, amongst other things.

      In first year I studied the philosophy of Hobbes and economics.

      By second year I was campaigning in favour of tuition fees and doing everything I could to close the University doors on the working classes.

      In society everything is relative. If I have £10 and everybody else has £2, that makes relatively wealthy.

      By the same token, if I am degree educated in a sea of people who have nothing more than ScotVec Modules in arts & crafts, well… that makes me a genius.

      Some people probably think it’s ironic that education itself resulted in me thinking like this. I’ve never quite understood irony, to me it’s just about me and my rational choices.

    30. K1 says:

      Aye Chris whilst the poorest are feeding off a menu of the Mail & Record and voting for the Tories ’cause ah canny stand that SNP lot’. The other side of the Unionist alliance: Labour, have shut down another charitable organisation aimed at alleviating their plight…the Labour council in our ‘dear green place’ seem to have developed a real zeal for this of late.

      City Property (landlord) has raised the rent by 4000% for the charity organisation ‘Glasgow the Caring City in Castlemilk forcing the organisation to close after 17 years.

      The landlord, City Property is an ‘arms length firm’ of Glasgow City Council.

      Ross Galbraith the manager of the charity has called:

      ‘…for other charities or firms who are facing eviction or rent increases to contact him, in the hope of working together to address the problem.

      He said: “As a charity that is facing this ourselves, we would encourage any other small business or organisation who is going through the same thing to get in touch and come forward.

      “We can see if there is any way we can draw from our collective experience or contacts and see if we can help anyone.”

      What is going on here? Why is Glasgow City Council shutting down charities that provide assistance to those who need it most? We need these bastards removed from our councils next year.

      ‘As reported by the Evening Times last week, the company kicked out the Ruchill Furniture Project from its Chapel Street base and said founders had been illegally occupying the site for years.

      Greater Maryhill Foodbank was also forced to leave its premises on the same street due to rent arrears, while the Afro-Caribbean centre on Osborne Street was forced out in April over mounting debts of more than £60,000.’

    31. davidb says:

      I’m not sure this cartoon isn’t a bit patronising.

      I see childhood obesity and thus poor parenting skills. Her opinion however is probably in her economic interest. If she is that thick ( voting RDP! ) I would expect her to be an unsupportive type of parent. Wee Billy here – unless supported by exceptional teachers or peers – may well not aspire to university. And since the fee free regime is paid for from general taxation, then it is probable she has more to gain by her taxes being directed elsewhere than at higher education.

      I think myself that the only social group which will have anything to fear from independence is the landowning aristocracy. I don’t understand why people vote against their own interests. I don’t get the loyalty to the German Monarchy above all else. But the obsession with higher education is more of a middle class concern. And so I think this cartoon patronises.

    32. Anagach says:

      Dont you know – even the BBC are selling it – free education is a failed idea.

      I am not sure how they mean its a failed idea, it certainly felt like it worked for me back at the start of the 1980s just before the Thatcher ramp down in student support.

      I guess they mean it failed, in that private debt companies could not use HMRC to enslave educated workers in very profitable, for the private companies, debt for most of their lives.

    33. Capella says:

      A good article on student loans as “sub prime” debt for which the taxpayer is going to be shafted when the default rates soar. Another import from USA.

      “Now we get to the subprimiest of subprime debt – student loans. Student loans are not officially classified as subprime debt, but let’s compare borrowers. A subprime borrower has a FICO score of 660 or below, has defaulted on previous obligations, and has limited ability to meet monthly living expenses. A student loan borrower doesn’t have a credit score because they have no credit, have no job with which to pay back the loan, and have no ability other than the loan proceeds to meet their monthly living expenses.”

      The effect is to turn colleges into

      “institutions of lower learning which spend more annually on marketing than Ivy League business schools generate in total revenue. They are nothing more than swindlers, gaming the Federal loan system, and dispensing virtually worthless diplomas, and leaving its students deep in debt.”

      I can understand why hedge fund managers might commission research which suggests that Scottish education is failing because we don’t have tuition fees. Lots of sub prime debt is good for the money lending business.

    34. Dan Huil says:

      proudbut nobut proudbut nobut proudbut nobut proudbut nobut…

    35. Dan Huil says:

      All it needs, to start the ball rolling, is one SNP/Green politician to say that no-one should be prosecuted for non-payment of the bbc tax.

    36. Croompenstein says:

      Nice one Chris, Jockholm syndrome…

      Heard this on GMS yesterday…

      Lucy Hunter Blackburn from 1:08:30

      John Swinney reply from 2:08:30

      Who to believe?? mmmm…

      Is it just me that loves the way JS says ‘Scotland’

    37. Bob Mack says:


      In other words , it is all about you. Don’t think this site is therefore your spiritual home. We are trying to get away from the self serving an example of which, you have just exemplified by your post.

    38. HandandShrimp says:

      I heard on the radio the lady that wrote report (Hunter Blackburn?)I am sure I heard her say that the demand for places in Scottish universities is so great that it pushes up the entrance requirements thus lowering the chances of those from deprived areas where educational attainment is less likely to meet those higher critera.

      The obverse of this is that in England demand is lower and therefore those with lower A level attainment can still secure a place.

      I guess the author is suggesting that we charge fees to lower demand and therefore create space. If that is not correct then my apologies to her.

      However, I am not entirely convinced that we should be looking at this from the university end. Surely raising attainment in schools and perhaps also having more places might be a better combination.

      I am not sure how long this disparity will continue. Osborne has scrapped maintenance grants in England and students are finding that the interest rate on their student loans are not as low as once touted (they are currently 4%) This means that students with £40,000 debts are watching that debt rise by £1,600 a year.

      There is a train crash coming down this line.

    39. carjamtic says:

      Diet ?

      We call it the Flag menu,as offered up by the BBC/MSM:

      Lo Salt
      Hi Jack

      Scotland’s diet,is being/has been Hijacked.


    40. Grouse Beater says:

      Peffers: “They don’t encrypt the news but have websites that anyone can access.”

      A sad refection on the supposed integrity of the media.

      In a similar vein, I’m working on an expose of the arts school fire. Those I approach who worked there clam up. Like pulling teeth so far, but am slowly getting facts and names of culprits.

      Expect J’accuse soon on my essay site!

    41. AhuraMazda says:

      Bob Mack, your response there is possibly the most interesting post ever on here. I mean that sincerely. I’m going to think about it as I walk in the park.

      Off the top of my head, however, my reasons for supporting independence for Scotland are driven by my self interest. That’s my immediate response. But it’s complicated, more complicated than I at first thought. My head hurts thinking about it already.

      You have raised the idea that it might be in my personal selfish interests if other people in society are educated and better off. Run time error… Altruism doesn’t compute on my operating system; I need to go before it crashes.

      There’s no way I am going to format and reinstall everything over this — I can tell you that right now. I’ll re-boot and get back to you once everything is sorted.

    42. Onwards says:

      Surely it is always better for the country as a whole to be highly educated in general?
      With regard to society and culture, jobs, investment..

      Was reading an article on how Ireland is bouncing back fast.
      The “Celtic Phoenix” it is referred to now.

      IDA Ireland notes that many companies, however, choose the country not for tax-inversion purposes, but because it makes a natural launching point for European operations. In addition to the low tax rate, Ireland has a comparatively high level of workers with post-secondary education, more affordable office space and a large multinational presence.

      “Yes, we have a very competitive corporate tax rate, but without having the other factors that go into making a decision on where to choose in order to build your sustainable competitive company, corporate tax rate is irrelevant,” New York-based Dowdall said.

    43. heedtracker says:

      Why is England the only European country charging uni fees? Its under toryboy control.

      Why is toryboy England trying to force Scots to pay fees, via BBC Scotland creep show? Because they suddenly developed a social conscience, ha bloody ha.

      Australia got massive uni fee hikes 2014, English toryboy style. Toryboy’s got in down under, instantly scrapped uni fees cap thanks to hard core conservative PM Tony Abbott, who also said this about Scotland 2014

      “I think that the people who would like to see the break-up of the United Kingdom are not the friends of justice, the friends of freedom, and the countries that would cheer at the prospect… are not the countries whose company one would like to keep.”

      Beware the toryboy. They’re fuckwits.

    44. Onwards says:

      “Off the top of my head, however, my reasons for supporting independence for Scotland are driven by my self interest.”

      I think self-government will gradually result in a massive change in the attitudes and mindsets of our fellow Scots. It’s hard to quantify, but I reckon a lot of the social and cultural problems in Scotland are directly related to our constitutional position.
      There has been a culture of dependency and a culture of ‘second best’ and “what’s the point” that comes from the very top.

      Independence would be the boot up the arse that this country needs, and everyone could walk that little bit taller afterwards.

    45. AhuraMazda says:

      Okay I have re-booted and everything seems fine now. I’m running a virus scan just in case some silly socialist worm-like idea is hiding somewhere in the background.

      Onward, Ireland has relied for many years now on foreign corporations using the country as “a natural launching point for European operations”. Nothing new in that. They’re in a better position to attract FDI than Scotland — they aren’t going to be ripped out of the EU any time soon, for example.

      I know zilch about the Irish education system but I know that their government going back several decades has prioritised the economy. And I agree with that and think it’s more important than education as an immediate priority.

      When Scotland gets independence I will possibly take a more favourable long-term view of education.

      I take it everybody here knows that education is going to be a top priority for the SNP over the next 5 years and we can expect a lot of discussion on the subject.

      I understand the general arguments on education but the subject bores me to tears and it’s hard to imagine that many will be excited about it.

      I think emphasis would be better placed on jobs and the economy. I can’t think of a better way to win people over than to make them more prosperous — that would be good for independence and it would be good for the SNP.

      Also, the effects of creating jobs and boosting the economy would be more or less immediate.

      It is known that poverty has a huge bearing on a child’s propensity to do well in class and I think results generally would improve in that regard if the parents of more children had jobs, self-confidence, happiness, and hope.

      Education on the other hand is a really long-term project. I don’t do canvassing but I am involved in marketing which I regard as a similar challenge. I’d really struggle to sell anything on the basis that it might 10 years from now help your child get on in life, especially if the person I am selling to is long-term unemployed and lacks so much right now.

      I’m not opposed to improving our education system. I just think the subject is boring and uninspiring. I know there are serious limits on what the SNP can do with the economy money-wise, but that’s the challenge.

    46. Onwards says:

      I don’t think anyone’s saying we should neglect the economy.
      Personally I think far more money should be put into infrastructure, but when people are asked about top priorities its always health and education. Politically speaking it can’t hurt for the SNP to put a focus on education.
      Everyone knows some parents are useless and won’t get involved at all. I don’t know the balance between nature and nurture, but it seems like a noble aim that kids from poorer areas have more of a chance to have an equal start and go on to university.

      Pushing education signifies that the Scottish Government has the long term interests of the country at heart.
      It looks like the next referendum won’t be in this parliament term, and if the figures improve over the next 5 years then it is a good campaigning point at the next election.

    47. Ruby says:

      Surely investing in education is investing in the economy!

      If you have a educated workforce you will attract companies offering highly paid jobs.

      If you have an uneducated workforce you would have to compete with third world countries and be ready to reduce the minimum wage to £1 a week.

    48. Iain More says:

      I benefitted from the Mature Student Grant and having zero fees to pay. Although there are those close to me that say I got no benefit at all from it because I am as fick as I ever was. But no fick enough to vote for any Yoon Party or their works.

      I doubt that the SNPs goal of improving education will come to pass. Firstly because there are too many obstructionist Yoon controlled Councils. Secondly there are too many obstructionist Yoons in the teaching Profession. Thirdly there are too many Yoon enclaves in the Universities etc. Fourthly there will be a daily tirade in the Yoon Press and Media until the SNP drop whatever plans they do have even if the Yoons themselves like some of them. We have seen that before as they have years of form for it. I could go on but I wont.

      The SNP plan might work but only if they stop playing nice and take the gloves off when dealing with heel dragging obstructionist Yoons.

    49. bobajock says:

      I can only think that the Tories have acquired voters with the ability to bury their heads in the sand.

      Heartbreakingly accurate illustration.

    50. peter says:

      @AhurMazda, you would do well to connect your virtual computer mind to the ether and realise that education within Scotland is only the very small part of the issue re higher attainment. In the world, for UK/Scotland to stay at forefront and have high (relatively) standards of living then we need to be in the better educated , higher earning opportunities.
      I realised this early when I left school in top 3, left Uni in top 5% , was employed by a company who by reputation always selected from the top 10% of engineers. I thought I was clever etc etc . Then when I started working for the company I realised that EVERYONE was from top 5% and that working in R&D I was in a group who were in the top 1% engineering in the UK ! Then you realised looking around that you are “average” and some who realised they were below average in the group didn’t cope well with it. So it is with the world, In terms of new ideas, new products, new opportunities, it’s not the Scottish or the UK or even Europe we need to watch. It is RoW. and some of them are taking over the high end research and concepts 🙁
      AND more importantly it’s not about me/us as individuals, but all 🙂

    51. AhuraMazda says:

      Onwards; “Pushing education signifies that the Scottish Government has the long term interests of the country at heart.”

      You could say that about face-painting. People don’t live in the future or the long-term, they live in the present. And I think this issue needs attention right now, more so than the long-term plan that might or might not work on education.

      You know what’s really funny, and I think this is probably one of the most controversial things I’ve ever said on here… Recently we have been hearing about this Constitutional Committee from people like Ruby and Petra and they have done a great job relaying that info to us.

      Whilst going through that stuff I noticed this Professor Tomkins (who we all agree is a prick) say something that I haven’t really heard anyone else discuss.

      They were talking about how desperately poor Glasgow was; basically about half of Glasgow, he said, was experiencing poverty that was at the level of the third world. He was trying to explain why people feel so detached from London or something.

      He then went on to propose ways of addressing that which were quite ridiculous but isn’t it odd that I have never heard Sturgeon or Salmond or any of the Labour leaders or anyone on that level really discuss this issue in the context of actually fixing it?

      I know RISE and various other non-profit organisations talk about stuff like that, but I can’t remember any sitting MSP or party leader from any party say that this particular problem, poverty in Glasgow, is so bad that we need to prioritise it and deal with it. Not one. And it is.

      It sounds like a left wing issue but it isn’t. Poverty in Glasgow is so bad that I think it is above politics. And it seems like nobody really cares — except Tomkins albeit for his own narrow reasons of manipulation.

      People are so busy trying to define their left-wingedness and fix their hair that they forget what politics and left-wingedness is actually meant to be about.

    52. AhuraMazda says:

      Peter, I don’t think it’s fair that you hold my lack of intelligence against me when you, as you point out, are in that top 1% in the known universe.

      Anyway, basically you are making a point similar to Ruby’s, as I understand it, that education is key to advancing the economy.

      There are obvious problems with the idea that an economy needs a a highly educated workforce in order to be successful. We must also bear in mind that success in socio-economic terms can be defined in a number of ways.

      Anyway, if you look at say the US economy in the 1950s or 60s, or the any economy that’s experiencing a boom, especially the economy of Britain in the 19th century I would say, it’s clear that education wasn’t actually that important. I can go through other countries and into more detail if you insist.

      Funnily enough, one of the biggest factors in explaining booms in economies is a supply of relatively cheap labour and — this is very topical — more often than not, a supply of cheap migrant labour. Again I can provide suggested reading on that if you wish.

      In Glasgow I would say that we already have an oversupply of skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled workers that are key ingredients required to kick-start an economy. What we lack is the infrastructure, political will, and resources. We’re right into the area of industrial policy now (which we don’t have in the UK or Scotland) but if you look at it for what it is you’d say that the only thing we don’t have is investment.

      I heard in 2012 that the UK produced more cars than Germany. That isn’t because the UK suddenly became smarter than Germany, and it’s worth pointing out that none of those car plants were actually British, it’s because for one reason or another those car plants decided to set up factories in England. Do we have one single car plant in Scotland? Not that I know of, yet they are high-paying jobs; jobs that for the most part don’t require workers who are particularly high-skilled.

    53. K1 says:

      10th March 2014, Scottish Government: Child Poverty Strategy:

      13 October 2014, Nicola Sturgeon: Poverty Levels are a scandal:

      15 November 2014, Sturgeon vows to tackle inequality and poverty:

      19 April 2016, Nicola Sturgeon pledges action on causes of poverty:

      And that’s just a ‘sample’ from a quick google search.

      But right enough, there’s ‘never’ been any MSP or party leader dealing with or trying to ‘fix’ our poverty blight in Scotland and in Glasgow specifically. So thank the stars above for people like Tomkins for alerting us to this seriously neglected state of affairs and bringing it to our attention!

    54. AhuraMazda says:

      K1, I’m all ears. However, none of your links are valid.

      Link 1: is a link to another humdrum article on tackling Child Poverty

      Link 2: is the exact same as link 1 (looks like you or someone made an error)

      Link 3: is an article about a proposed “multi-billion pound childcare package”

      Link 4: Is a piece entitled “Nicola Sturgeon pledges action on causes of poverty” and in which, if you had read it, she proposes to focus on “transformational childcare, reforming our NHS and investing in housing and communities”.

      I can see where you are going with your response. The point I am making is that it’s never really addressed as a key issue in itself in the context of job creation or really doing anything about it now.

      There’s a big difference between, for example, tackling the causes of poverty and tackling real existing poverty right now. And it’s the same with education. Education might help future generations or something — might — but what about the parents who are struggling right now?

      Here’s other questions: why aren’t we talking about industrial policy? Why don’t we have car plants? Why don’t we have HS2? Why is it the last time I saw a boat on the Clyde it provoked the response of “Oh, there’s a boat” from my daughter?

      I understand there are limits, serious limits, on what the SNP can do and I understand that the situation is so bad because of Unionist neglect (I would say SLAB have a lot to answer for in that regard) but even so, why not prioritise it? I’m talking more specifically job creation and economic regeneration in Glasgow not some vague notion or plan to tackle the causes of poverty.

    55. K1 says:

      Your’e answering your own questions here:

      ‘I understand there are limits, serious limits, on what the SNP can do and I understand that the situation is so bad because of Unionist neglect (I would say SLAB have a lot to answer for in that regard) but even so, why not prioritise it?’

      These articles I linked to are a direct response to your point about MSP’s and party leaders ‘not’ prioritising this. Pick almost any articles related to the poverty in Scotland and you will find the focus on ‘child poverty’ because ‘right now’ that is the priority. The SNP are ‘right now’ tackling this. You know that the SNP have rolled out and extended the nursery and early years programmes, these initiatives are helping those in poverty ‘right now’?

      The parents are assisted in this regard as this programme directly addresses the immediate ‘poverty’ in the parts of Glasgow and other areas that have the severest levels of poverty Ahura. The parents ‘burden’ is being lifted as the state is ‘intervening’. Freeing up time and resources for that/those parent/s to then find employment, or go back into education to improve their prospects. Why can’t you ‘see’ this.

      It’s not going to happen ‘overnight’ but it’s more than has ‘ever’ been rolled out in recent decades to tackle this?

      By so doing they are also attempting to alter the course of the next generation to ‘prevent’ this continuing?

      Your point was about Tomkins somehow bringing this into the ‘light’ and you directly said that no one else was? That was the point of my response Ahura?

      Nicola Sturgeon is ‘prioritising’ this Ahura, I do understand the ‘point’ you are ’emphasising’ though in terms of ‘what’ happens at the the council’s level and what ‘they prioritise’.

      Labour run councils made a lot of noise about their ‘reduced’ budget a while back, making out they were being ‘hammered’ by the SG. The reality was John Swinney ‘ring fenced’ a huge proportion of their budgets to ‘ensure’ the money goes to where the SG are targeting these main programmes (living wage to all carers). All of this was done with ‘alleviating the causes’ of poverty in mind.

      So I disagree with your ‘view’ on this, I see the SNP as the only party that has the vision and the will and the competence to tackle poverty whether it be in Glasgow or any other part of Scotland that has been blighted by years of neglect from all other parties. To listen to Tory Tomkins giving evidence about the ’causes’ of poverty to a committee dedicated to ensuring the Scotland remains part of that same Union that has been fundamental in ‘causing’ this very poverty is just a bit hard to swallow Ahura.

      I certainly would not cite someone like Tomkins as some ‘good guy’ in this respect when there is evidence aplenty that indicates it is ‘only’ the SNP SG that has committed time, resources and money as a priority to alleviating the ’causes’ of poverty in Scotland.

    56. AhuraMazda says:

      I didn’t use Tomkins in the way you are suggesting though; I called him a prick and said that he was only mentioning poverty for manipulative purposes to do with strengthening the Union. I can hardly imagine being more scathing towards him without mentioning his parents or something.

      But listen, I’m 46. Call me old fashioned. All these grand plans about reducing child poverty and education and the causes of poverty, all sound the same to me.

      When I talk about tackling real existing poverty, I think in bread and butter terms. It’s almost at the stage where we don’t even have the words or language to discuss these things.

      Onwards suggested earlier that when asked people always say that education and health are their priorities and I think that sums it up; people have been sort of programmed to think that unemployment is just a fact of life in these parts, that’s how I read those polls. So much so that they don’t even consider it alongside other problems to be addressed and solved — it’s just a fact of life.

      I don’t necessarily think we need to educate these unemployed people. And I don’t think improving their kids’ chances or tackling the causes of poverty is addressing the issue. In the old days they would have arranged for a couple of car plants to open up here, shuffled a few pieces of paper and created 100 thousand semi-skilled jobs.

      Those days are gone only if we decide they are gone. As solutions though they are every bit as relevant today as they were in the past. Arguably more so. It’s as if this city has lost the will to live sometimes. There’s no economy in Glasgow. I refuse to accept that supermarkets and bookmakers amount to a real economy.

    57. Paula Rose says:

      Actually as no-one else is going to do it – I am interested in discussing what a right of centre progressive party in an independent Scotland might look like.

    58. AhuraMazda says:

      Paula, not sure I understand what you mean. I can assure you though that jobs and economics are as much at the heart of right of centre politics and economics as they are at the heart of left wing politics.

      The business community generally are very keen on job creation. The concern is that you’d need to hammer us on tax to do it. It’s not as simple as that though.

      I can easily imagine an independent Scotland with virtually no unemployment and a vibrant economy.

      There’s huge spin-off dividends when it comes to job creation — you don’t need to spend so much on welfare, crime goes down, drug abuse goes down, health improves, and kids that are nourished perform better at school than malnourished kids. A list of these benefits could easily stretch a mile long.

      For business-minded people that means more sales, greater stability and predictability, room for expansion, growth, etc.

    59. K1 says:

      SG can only ‘mitigate’. You are in essence complaining about the Union Ahura.

      You raised Tomkins in the the context of your point about no one ‘prioritising’ poverty Ahura.

      I merely raised my eyebrow.

      Och and perhaps it’s just a lost in translation thing Ahura, you have stated that english is not your first language, so maybe this causes misunderstanding too?

      It’s ‘as if’ ‘to my reading’ that there is a comparison being made between ‘his’ raising of the issue of poverty and ‘your’ annoyance that no one in ‘Scotland’ has done anything to ‘fix’ this? Yes you think he is a prick but also that he’s an ‘important’ prick cause it was worth citing him in the first place?

      Hope that clarifies a ‘little’ of where I was coming from in that regard?

      ‘He then went on to propose ways of addressing that which were quite ridiculous but isn’t it odd that I have never heard Sturgeon or Salmond or any of the Labour leaders or anyone on that level really discuss this issue in the context of actually fixing it?’

    60. AhuraMazda says:

      Yes, I stand by that. Could be a language barrier, as you suggest.

      Here’s the sort of initiative I’m talking about though. You should bear in mind that I don’t really watch TV or read papers so most of my thinking on stuff comes from what I perceive.

      But take the renewables industry. I heard that in the month of March Scotland for the first time produced enough wind power to provide electricity for all the homes in Scotland. Very good, I thought, that’s an important milestone. Apparently it was an unusually windy month but even so.

      Have you any idea how many of those wind turbines there are in Scotland? I assume you are familiar with these things, they are huge. Where I live there are hundreds quite near.

      I have no idea how many there are, but there must be a lot. Let’s guess that there are 10 thousand all over Scotland. Do you know how many were actually made in Scotland? None.

      Why are we importing them from Denmark? It isn’t rocket science, is it? They bring them over on huge barges and then take them by road to their destination. Madness.

    61. K1 says:

      Wel I’ve found 2 companies so far that do manufacture wind turbines in Scotland Ahura.


      The design is Danish, but they are manufactured here.

      There’s also this, not sure how it’s coming along but there has no doubt been some progress in creating jobs and apprenticeships in wind turbine manufacturing in Scotland in recent years:

    62. K1 says:

      Others on Wings will be a lot more informed on these matters Ahura, you should ask around, some of those who comment on here have a great deal of expertise on the energy and manufacturing sectors in Scotland.

    63. Thepnr says:

      “Do you know how many were actually made in Scotland? None. Why are we importing them from Denmark?”

      No point in asking K1, only Thatcher has the answer to that question. She decided manufacturing should be sacrificed in favour of the “invisibles” banking and insurance.

      Truth be told it was simply a Tory ideology to defeat the trade unions.

      Once you pop your clogs try getting an audience with her majestry and let us know why we import turbines from Denmark.

    64. AHuraMazda says:

      K1, the motive-renewables and the gail-wind turbines aren’t the big most commonly used ones. The ones I am talking about are manufactured in Denmark and I think they are the most common ones… they’re huge. There are hundreds of them near where I live, near Whitelea off the Ayr road.

      Thepnr, Thatcher had nothing to gain up here (hardly any of us voted Tory back then) and as an English politician she done what was in her country’s best interest as she saw it. Given the choice between closing down Scottish plants and English plants, she naturally chose to close ours down. That isn’t an argument against Thatcherism per se, it’s an argument for Scottish independence.

      If Sturgeon had to choose between closing down Scottish factories or English factories, what do you think she would choose? What would you expect and want her to choose? Is that an argument against the SNP?

    65. Paula Rose says:

      @ Thepnr I never understood how a supposedly right wing party could destroy the manufacturing base of a country.

    66. Thepnr says:

      @Paula Rose

      Neither do I. It served a purpose though only they can know.

    67. Paula Rose says:

      @Thepnr I suppose it must have been some entryist tendency out to destroy from the inside.

    68. K1 says:

      What are you ‘driving’ at Ahura? Thepnr makes a very good point in political terms irrespective of you ‘dismissing’ it, the facts are the facts in terms of the loss of manufacturing in Scotland due to decisions taken by the Tory government under Thatcher. It’s well documented Ahura, no point in going over this over and over again, is there?

      You don’t mention the other link I provided, regarding apprenticeships and Areva?

      Why not? There is a definite intent on the part of the SG to create jobs in this sector Ahura.

      So what is the point of the point you are making?

      You would have to research this more and I suppose you could write to your MP and raise this point if indeed it is the case that we are not manufacturing these particular wind turbines here, find out the reasons behind why not?

      It’s like you are annoyed by a lot of different issues, which is fair enough, but you don’t seem to go ‘beyond’ the annoyance and raise what you consider to be an important issue with those who could provide you with more in depth answers to your concerns?

      You said it was ‘Madness’ and that it isn’t ‘rocket science’, so pursue it further if this is a real issue for you.

    69. Paula Rose says:

      K1 what is this Ahura of which you speak – I cannot see such an entity.

    70. K1 says:

      Christ PR, I feel like I’m in an alternate universe as it is…you’ll have to be more ‘literal’ wi me…

      I’m not ‘that’ bright 🙁

    71. Thepnr says:

      @Paula Rose

      That’ll be the same guy that bragged of 10’s of thousands of twitter followers under LOTS OF NAMES that turned out to be a load of shite.

      See the people that read Wings who express some sympathy for tubes like that? Well I despair as I guess they haven’t read much of the posts.

      I won’t be ignoring this chap anymore, I will confront him on every false statement, false innuendo, personal attacks on other poster he makes.

      His downright lying needs to be exposed, fuck this ignore the troll.

    72. K1 says:

      Yeah ah know Thpnr.

      Angra Mainyu says:
      30 November, 2015 at 11:18 am
      yesindyref2, I have 35 Twitter accounts with a combined total of over 2.6 million followers.
      The only thing that hurts is the shallowness of people who think having large numbers of followers equates with importance or popularity.
      Anyway, Twitter serves a few purposes in SEO terms but the truth is I don’t like it except for pestering people…
      I prefer old style chat rooms and still use a couple of them sometimes. They’re better for debating as unlike on forums like this the debates are live… chancers get caught out very quickly in live debates.
      I could say more about Twitter and one or two people who use this forum, but sometimes it’s better to say nothing.

      I’ve called him for everything you have. It hasn’t made an ounce of difference, so I gave up over night and today. I’m not fighting with him anymore. He didn’t answer my last questions from our ‘spat’ last night, what do I do, chase him up about it? There’s nothing I haven’t called him out on, it makes no difference.

      Yer either ignored or told tae leave him be, or yer a fool for engaging with a ‘troll’, and on and on it goes…to what end? And when you are getting assaulted by him, people just sit back and say…more or less: yer bringing on yersel’ for engaging with him in the first place. So ye just end up making a cunt of yersel’ on here as well. For what?

      Unless it’s a unified approach it counts for naught, cause ‘divide and conquer’ works just as effectively on Wings as it does anywhere else real or virtual.

      I was all over ‘off topic’ about him when he was Neoconnat too as his behaviour was just as it is and has been with this new moniker. Don’t engage, don’t engage, yeah…well so much for that. Now I’m just getting tired of Wings because of it. Because it has and is ruining the threads, he does provoke, he does assault, he does all of this, but still the Rev okays it.

      Fine. It’s not worth my while arguing with him anymore. He can do whatever the fuck he likes, cause the only person that decides whether he can’t, isn’t me.

      That’s why I’m being civil with him tonight because he isn’t that important really is he? Why waste my energies anymore ‘fighting’ against what is ‘actually’ completely acceptable on Wing’s btl?

      So good luck tae ye Thpnr. I’m out of this one in terms of battling this anymore.

    73. Thepnr says:

      Hello K1

      I suppose we shouldn’t bother, ignore the troll, they’ll just go away. Hahaha. Not in this case.

      This guy is a case, well fuck that.

      He’s scared of me LOL where’s that machete?

    74. Thepnr says:

      “I have 35 Twitter accounts with a combined total of over 2.6 million followers.”

      How fucking delusional is that?

    75. defo says:

      Well worked Chris. No socks with trainees. Class.

      Re-arrange. Environment. Of . Product.
      She took the blue pill, and is setting up the wee man to do the same.

      Still, she’ll have ‘Successor’ to keep us safe, in our happy union.
      The name is supposed to have come from a wet dream a war mongering criminal head of a failing Western kleptocracy had had at Fettes.

      Sometimes, don’t you almost wish Googles singularity would hurry up and emerge, and take over ?

      BTW In the page wee view, the young scamp bears an uncanny resemblance to Kim un Jong. You been got at ?

    76. Thepnr says:

      Ahuara Says:

      “I went to University from an extremely poor background. I was a socialist back then and believed in free education for all, amongst other things.

      In first year I studied the philosophy of Hobbes and economics.

      By second year I was campaigning in favour of tuition fees and doing everything I could to close the University doors on the working classes.

      In society everything is relative. If I have £10 and everybody else has £2, that makes relatively wealthy.”

      What kind of a freak would come out with a statement like that? 🙂

    77. Thepnr says:

      There’s this poor cunt right. Gets into University not because he’s poor but because he is quite bright.

      You won’t believe this though, he’s a socialist right but the lecturers get their hands on him, fill his heed with mince and he’s now a capitalist. OK OK it does happen just look at Gordon Brown, this student though gets worse!

      He now want’s future students to pay fees and wants to “close the door” on the working classes!

      It’s obvious, poor guy, brainwashed in just a year LOL or just a fucking prick.

      You have read his own words, you know his views. Your choice.

    78. AhuraMazda says:

      Paula Rose says:
      28 May, 2016 at 11:55 pm
      @ Thepnr I never understood how a supposedly right wing party could destroy the manufacturing base of a country.

      The “how” part was pretty straight-forward. I guess it’s the “why” people get stuck on. That said, the “why” is simple too, I just can’t be bothered explaining it.

      I manage less Twitter accounts now, about 20 to 25, with over 3 million followers. It’s nothing to be proud of, just work. You can buy followers for buttons too.

      K1, on the training link, I didn’t think it was worth mentioning and thought it best not to rather than appear negative. People have different ways of approaching things, it’s nothing personal.

      I enjoyed chatting to you today. I thought it showed that if people were civil to each other then the hostilities could be avoided.

      There’s no more to my point about economics than what I said. It seems like there’s an assumption in politics nowadays that about one third of society are to remain in the dark ages. Surprises me that the left don’t articulate that better but that’s partly why I think the left generally is obsolete.

      I think the SNP should do more on this but I don’t say that as some back-hand criticism, I think it would be a huge vote winner. Be honest, looking at the state of Glasgow, how many people are going to get excited about a new strategy on education or tackling the causes of poverty?

    79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh, FGS, can we not just ignore the attention-seeking blighter? He is persistent, like a kind of weed. He’s filling up every thread now with acres of mostly narcissistic dross, and has reverted once again to his old tactic of attacking people who are thoughtful and positive contributors but against whom he has taken umbrage for some perceived slight or another.

      He certainly has a talent for self-promotion, viz. his recent posting where he gave a positive namecheck to one of his earlier aliases!

    80. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Would love to and wouldn’t that be nice. Will it make a difference, so far it would seem not.

      I don’t really know how to deal with someone who will say this:

      “I manage less Twitter accounts now, about 20 to 25, with over 3 million followers. It’s nothing to be proud of, just work. You can buy followers for buttons too.”

      Wee bit of madness there, if you have any idea Robert of how to cure or get rid of this madness then I’m all ears.

    81. AhuraMazda says:

      “He’s filling up every thread now with acres of mostly narcissistic dross, and has reverted once again to his old tactic of attacking people who are thoughtful and positive contributors”

      I’ve made about 10 posts in total today and at least 7 were in response to people addressing me. Actually this is another.

      Today I haven’t attacked anyone. I usually attack people who attack me but if you take the latest attack on me by Thepnr, you will see that I don’t respond or attack.

      I guess you’re here to sort me out or something and put me in my place.

      Which one are you, btw, the good, the bad, or the ugly?

      Goodnight kids.

    82. K1 says:

      ‘Be honest, looking at the state of Glasgow, how many people are going to get excited about a new strategy on education or tackling the causes of poverty?’

      The very people who see it impact their own personal situations at the ‘coal face’. It’s not always about ‘in yer face’ populism politics, or ‘excitement’, these are not the hallmarks of a good functioning competent government.

      The real grafting and the ‘results’ will not show up all over the MSM, it will not be publicised as a success. But the people that it is aimed at will have had genuine succour, their kids will not go hungry, their lives, slowly but surely will improve. Their children will ‘know’ the benefits and they will grow up understanding what it is like to be a citizen in a country that genuinely looks out for it’s own citizens.

      They and their children will be the future decision makers when we are all long gone. Maybe just maybe someone looks back and isn’t ‘defined’ by their ‘poverty’ and it seems an impossible thing that such conditions ever existed, because that next generation made sure that what happened to their parents and grandparents never happened to anyone else under their watch.

      It’s the future that really counts.

    83. Thepnr says:

      Ignoring is not that answer.

      Laughing at IT is hahahahha. Yah Prick 🙂

    84. Thepnr says:

      You got it K1.

      Not everybody does giggle giggle giggle hahaha. Just kidding 🙂 🙂

    85. AhuraMazda says:

      Laughing is fine, Thepnr… And so is the prick thing.

      You can accuse me of many things, and I’ll admit that half my posts are designed to wind up and provoke debate, but nobody could ever accuse me of not being a prick that wasn’t willing to laugh at himself.

    86. AhuraMazda says:

      “They and their children will be the future decision makers when we are all long gone. ”

      See, I’ll be honest, K1. No offence okay, now don’t get pissed off at me and start yer language, but that doesn’t excite me very much. I’d prefer if they sorted things out now for us…

    87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      A certain person @02:48 said:

      I’ll admit that half my posts are designed to wind up and provoke debate

      Now where have I heard something like that before…?

      Wait a mo’. Now I know who you are…

      You’re David Coburn!!

    88. K1 says:


      I see that you like ‘excitement’. That’s your bag. My ‘language’ as we were discussing last evening, was centred around the points that I made regarding your conduct on here with respect to your denigrating and assaulting posters who had differing opinions on various subjects, to yours.

      You sort it it out ‘now’ Ahura. Make a difference in a positive way on Wings and cut yer crap out. But you won’t will you? Well that’s up to you.

      You read what I wrote to Thpnr. So, why ‘act’ all ‘gingerly’ around me ‘now’. You haven’t given a damn how I’ve responded before to anything we have discussed?

      I’m not the one who like’s the sort of excitement you do in political or ‘wind up’ terms. Whether you agree with me or not isn’t the point is it? You asked me a question, I gave an answer, I didn’t insult you and tell you that ‘you’ are ‘wrong’ for having a different view. You have shown incredible ‘intolerance’ to others views, I haven’t.

      It’s a ‘choice’ Ahuradave. You are choosing the ‘manner’ of your responses because you enjoy battling with people. You ‘chose’ to be civil with me this evening. I ‘chose’ to be civil in ‘return’. It’s not complicated.

      We’re just different. That’s all.

    89. K1 says:

      Robert? You have to ‘claim your fiver’ when you make that statement. 😉

    90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 at 03:13 said:

      You have to ‘claim your fiver’ when you make that statement.

      Drat! I’ve missed a trick there. This new-fangled netiquette, I’ll never get the hang of it… =laugh=

      (But it is him, isn’t it…?!)

    91. K1 says:

      I’ve nae idea Robert.

      We should aw hae a big game o’ hangman:

      I think he’s _ _ _ _ _ _

      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _?

      (It’s possibly the only way we’ll manage to get to the 2017 elections short or irritating each other tae death on here. -:) )

    92. AhuraMazda says:

      How typical. You try and have a political debate and the usual happens, blah, blah, blah, troll, troll, troll. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

      We get about 5 sunny days a year and this is one of them. When I come back from a day out with the kids, I am sure I will be back here to runs rings around you all again, although I admit you are starting to bore me.

      Incidentally, there’s a reason I’m here and there’s a reason I haven’t been banned… go think about that, assuming you don’t have anything better to do on a day like this. Those who run this site know who I am, I’ve donated, used my name in correspondence, and I use a static IP.

      You accuse me of talking about myself all the time then you attack me with personal insults and devote 4000 yards of crap to talking about me… go figure.

      And, as I have pointed out, I couldn’t care less if you know who I am. Is there a threat in there of some sort, you going to come visit and beat me up? Let me imagine how that would work: “like us or we will beat you up some more, troll”?

      Let me assure you, if I ever find your political viewpoints unpleasant or disagreeable, I will explain why on here rather than threaten you or attack you personally, as I have always done.

      Clarity and substance in the face of bonkers, as usual.

    93. Paula Rose says:

      A lot of green ideology is actually small c Scottish conservatism.

    94. defo says:

      Did I miss something, has someone been outed ?

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