Closer than you think
The Labour-friendly elements of the press made much play yesterday of an Ipsos MORI poll which showed an unusually high level of support in the UK for remaining in the EU (while ignoring one by YouGov that showed a majority in favour of leaving).
But a piece in today’s Times throws the reality into sharp relief, and illustrates why the Yes movement hasn’t simply lain down and died after losing the referendum.
Funnily enough, the article includes a quote from an SNP MSP, but appears not to have sought one from a Unionist spokesman. And the reason for that is obvious enough – the EU is an incredibly uncomfortable area for the three Westminster parties, who are facing the prospect of being bounced by UKIP into a referendum none of them actually want, because they’re absolutely terrified of the voice of the English public on it. (Sound familiar?)
The Scottish independence debate would, as we’ve been pointing out since a couple of days after the No vote, be utterly transformed by the scenario outlined in the Times piece. It would be a dereliction of duty for the Scottish Parliament NOT to hold an emergency second independence referendum were Scotland to vote to stay in the EU while the UK as a whole voted to leave, and the Scottish Government has been careful not to rule it out – a strategy which probably required (and brought about) the resignation of Alex Salmond.
Any such second referendum would be held in strikingly different circumstances to the first. Many of the factors which played against a Yes vote – such as the views of big business, which is terrified of being outside the EU – would switch sides overnight. Banks would be threatening to leave London and move to Edinburgh, rather than the other way round. Much of the media would have to reconsider its position. Labour would have to try to somehow reconcile being anti-independence with being pro-EU.
The scenario is still a long way off in terms of events, but not in terms of time. The three component parts necessary for it to happen are in the hands of voters and any or all of them might not transpire, but the vote that takes the UK out of the EU could be less than three years away. We’re not surprised the Times has spared the Unionist parties the awkward job of facing up to it for now.
What is with Dumfries and Galloway?
Cameron has no intentions of coming out of the EU, he is just trying to blag it, once back in power, he will get the BBC/ SKY and all the papers to scare the crap out of the English voters, about the Dangers of leaving the EU, Oh the price of food will go up, travelling will be a nightmare, banks will move out, big business will flee to Ireland, Blaaa Blaaa Blaaaa, SOUND FAMILIAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh dear, they have discovered oil in the North Sea.
link to bbc.co.uk
Never saw that one coming.
“Banks would be threatening to leave London and move to Edinburgh”
Is this really the case though? David Cameron’s last veto was used against EU banking reform, if the banks had a hub of less regulation that may be very attractive to them and may be the real motivation.
However Labour spent such a huge amount of political energy ‘fighting’ for the union and the One Nation ideology, if the UK was out they would be obliged to go along with that and accept it.
gillie
10acres/person, a long coastline, temperate = farms and retired people.
I’m really looking forward to England voting to get out of the EU, while Scotland votes to stay in.
I’m also looking forward to seeing the hypocrisy from the likes of Asda, Standard Life, Tunnocks et al. as they pander for our vote to keep them in the EU.
@ gillie
OIl, again! We are truly cursed.
That’s a bit odd. Aren’t those areas mentioned traditional rural farming areas. I know there are large towns and urban areas contained within them but all the same. Surely the farming community would support remaining within the EU.
I really hope Scotland knows the disaster leaving the EU is. For me, it really would take us back to the dark ages, it’s another step to removing protection of Human Rights, which the UK govt. is intent on doing. Just watched peaceful protesters being bodily carried into vans in Occupy at Parliament Sq. Filmed by RT of course. Peaceful young men and women sitting on the ground holding placards and crying. Each bit of democracy is being stripped away.
I can’t tell you how upset I feel as to what is going on with the UK govt.over our Rights.
Interestingly enough Stu,
if all of the above starts falling into place, this site could be arguing *with* the establishment as opposed to against it in an effort to get a ‘yes’ vote to stay in the EU.
We’d be up against some minority parties and about half of the mainstream press, but once the westminster machine gets the might of our state sponsored broadcaster and big business to do its bidding, then a ‘yes’ vote to stay in the EU would be in the bag in Scotland.
However, having said all that, as we know from our own experience, the Government will pull out every stop to convince even England to vote ‘Yes’, so there is no out and out guarantee that England will vote to leave. What are the chances, given the Scottish outcome, that they won’t force a certain percentage before a ‘no’ vote to leave would be binding etc etc.
The weakest link in your suggested chain is certainly going to be getting a resounding vote in England to leave the EU.
Queasy?? My ass. Full blown sickness, irritability and despair.
Time perhaps to open discussion on the Labour proposal that Scottish MPs tasked to Westminster to debate UK and Scottish business e.g. defence could stand as list candidates for Holyrood and effectively do both jobs part-time.
The rationale being that with full devolution Scottish MPs would have little to do at Westminster and list members at Holyrood haven’t much to occupy themselves with either because of their lack of a specific constituency remit.
This will be ferocious. Prepare yourselves for a BritNatFest once the UKIPers and their Tory friends get going. It will be a really interesting rerun of 2014, with a blue, white and red sting in the tail:
” I’m a proud Brit, but…”
“Better Together”
“Best of Both Worlds”
Versus:
“Rule Britannia”
“British not European”
“No more immigrants” (or worse)
You can see it coming. Poor Scotland and Wales won’t get a look in. The BBC will take the govt. line, supporting big business for sure, but will all the UK papers fall into line? Mmmm.
Project Fear EU will certainly kick in, but BT struggled against a Scottish YES that started on 25%, how will they fare on a BritNat YES starting at 50%?
I am thinking of ordering a European Flag, just to annoy the BritNats.
While I would welcome a second bite at the referendum cherry in 2017, I lament the fact that there is a 500lb gorilla in the room… namely, those of us who look to Norway, Switzerland & Iceland and ask… why can’t we hear a case for an independent Scotland OUTSIDE the EU?
I for one think excluding the Scottish Democratic Alliance from the Yes Scotland board was a mistake, for they offered an alternative view of the independence-lite model (own currency, outside EU, etc.) and as a moderate right-of-centre party, could and would have reached out to the silent majority among the middle classes… and possibly many of the 400K people who habitually vote Tory in WM and Holyrood elections, despite the fact they are unelectable.
I just think too many pro-YES people need to practice what they preach when they talk of the “broad church” of our movement, but refuse to tolerate any viewpoints which they construe as right of centre and scoff/deride anyone who wants to argue for following a path outwith the EU.
IM kind of looking forward to a con/ukip alliance.
Imagine the havoc that twisted bigot farage will cause as deputy pm.
Scotland will get independence and it will be Cameron and farage that will give it to us on a golden plate.
cant wait until this euro referendum which ukip want within two months if they form an alliance.
England vote to leave…Scotland vote to stay
yes that would be grounds for another indy ref
isn’t politics fun!
The scenario outlined above is one of my favourites 🙂 . England votes out, Scotland votes in, emergency Indy referendum … all the past lies and deceit, DevoMax sell out, proof we aren’t better together … and IndyRef II gets a nice big Yes!
A lot of water has to flow down the Clyde, Tay and Spey first, though.
How any EU referendum would play out depends on how UKIP do in the GE, how the SNP do. Also, what stance the MSM take – a rabble rousing anti EU position, or otherwise. There are supposed to be EU re-negotiations. The anti EU Tories may side with a strong UKIP on a ticket of “let’s leave anyway”.
Alternative scenarios exist!
Labour actually win WM 2015. UKIP perhaps having hit Tories more than Labour. Labour have no reason to offer EU vote.
Tories win WM 2015. UKIP melts away at a ‘normal’ GE. Tory government fudges negotiations to look positive then asks for a YES EU vote and gets it.
However, in either case, there may emerge a couple of rows of SNP MPs! Then what? Support a Unionist party for real FFA/DevoMax knowing an emergency Indy vote won’t happen? The problem here, I think, is that the Tories might actually be more like to allow FFA than Labour. So that might mean the SNP support a Tory minority government. However, if the Tories have enough to push English only legislation, this might work.
The next few years could be exciting!
O/T Sos Rev could’nt resist.
link to facebook.com.
Tom: “Surely the farming community would support remaining within the EU.”
Not necessarily. Bear in mind that Scottish farmers get the lowest payments in the whole EU. It’s because of the UK right enough, but many of them probably don’t realise that. You’ve also got the fishing communities in Banff & Buchan, who have also been hard done by the EU because of the UK.
Anyway, I know both my parents would vote to leave the EU, and they’re both from the Banff & Buchan area. I reckon a lot of my extended family would too, included those involved in fishing. Teuchters can often view outsiders with suspicion…
Luigi says
“I am thinking of ordering a European Flag, just to annoy the BritNats.”
Im on it like a car bonnet! 🙂
[…] Closer than you think […]
@ gillie says:
A lot of the folks there read the English editions of the newspapers and watch Border TV?
What a delicious recipe…
“UK European (in the) Stew”
Ingredients
• One bad egg (Tory)
• One lame duck (Labour)
• A grain of sincerity (LibDem)
Using something to stir it up into a complete messy fudge (UKIP)
Hey presto, English political hotchpotch, finished off with Scottish independence decoration.
Anyone care for a portion?
(Probably best to stick to savouring the icing)
Independent Scotland Would Maintain EU Membership
Time to think long term and on the assumption that England decide to leave the EU. Professor Avery has influence in Europe.
Professor Graham Avery was a senior British civil servant for 40 years and Private Secretary to two former British Ministers. The former British diplomat, is a Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre and Honorary Director-General of the European Commission.
link to caltonjock.com
@ Luigi
” I’m a proud Brit, but…”
“Better Together”
“Best of Both Worlds”
Versus:
“Rule Britannia”
“British not European”
“No more immigrants” (or worse)
Can you set that to a calypso, man?
Doug, I think I’d vote to leave it.
TTIP and fishing/farming are big deals up here.
There is no reason why we can’t create legislation that works in tandem with other countries to enable freedom of movement etc, we don’t need rebates etc, I’m not sure what the mechanics of the EFTA are, but I’m keen to know more.
New Zealand isn’t in the EU and it’s farming industry does very well.
But how are the Brits going to manage without the EU, arent they better together, what about the debt, will America still bail out their banks, Will Standard life move to Brussels, we simply dont know!?!
Right now I think even I would consider voting to get out of Europe, why because not one of them stood side by side with us.
I consider myself as a Scot first and a European second, you will notice one omission, I am not and never will describe myself as British, it may say so on the Passport but if I could get shot of that it wouldn’t say it anywhere.
Westminster will be in anarchy. Tories, UKIP, Labour, SNP, Greens, Irish/Unionist, Welsh Nats. Can’t wait.
The Media morons won’t know which way to turn. HaHa.
Independence coming soon.
To me, the situation is clear cut.
With London being the enemy of Scotland, by denying Scots any freedom over her own territorial resources, and on a daily basis subverting free speech by flooding the airwaves by lying continually via pacific quay, by instructing Scots papers with extinction if they do not continually submerge the Scots from the truth of what is really going on, I am happy to let ANY other body such as the EU, look after our affairs, in preference to London, which will continue to deny us ANY of our own resources.
We are more likely to achieve independence via the EU than looking to London, who’s continuing utter and unstoppable greed have brought about its inevitable demise.
That was the main reason London lost its empire, and it continues to this day.
@Helana Brown
Yup, that’s another reason, only Denmark and a couple of others intimated they would be fine with it.
The rest pandered to the UK.
In their attempt to promote a Labour victory next year, the BBC have unleashed a UKIP monster that now threatens to run totally out of control. The Scottish referendum came close to breaking the UK, The EU referendum may well finish the job. Thanks, Auntie.
@ Ronnie Anderson 12:32pm That is the best photo of someone Sticking the Head on someone without sticking the head on them. Always good to see Someone using there head.
I personally think Westminster/Establishment/Banks want out of Europe because of TTIP .
Banking in London is what the Americans call `Reglite`
ie very little regulation compared to America/Europe .
TTIP comes along Regulations start to be `Regmax`all the Russian money Arab money African money South American money starts to come under a lot more scrutiny , the money has to leave and find a `Reglite` country to launder its money. By By Banks .
Why would the Establishment run BBC give UKIP so much airplay when they are the only ones wanting out of Europe .
Helena Brown says
“not one of them stood side by side with us.”
What about Ireland?
they gave us support.
Haggis Hunter says:
23 October, 2014 at 12:48 pm
But how are the Brits going to manage without the EU, arent they better together, what about the debt, will America still bail out their banks, Will Standard life move to Brussels, we simply dont know!?!
RE: Cameron’s promise to “renegotiate” the deal with Europe. Coming EU legislation is thought to be highly unfavourable to the London financial services industry. I think Cameron will secure an opt-out on banking, but he won’t get anywhere with immigration, since free movement of people is one of the underlying principles of the European Union. UKIP will scream, but as long as big business and the bankers are happy, then continued membership of the EU will be supported by the government and the BBC MSM.
Chris, personally I could live with or without NATO. I could live with or without the EU, I would be happy with a Scottish currency.
I simply want Scotland to run its own affairs, like normal countries.
It sure looks like the Tories are going to win the GE, maybe with the help of UKIP or LDs again and will have a lot of pressure to hold the EU referendum. This would be at the back end of their term as they would want a lengthy debate. That means 2018 or 2019.
However given that lots of large companies are already uneasy about UK leaving the EU, I think this would be a major factor and would scare a lot of people into keeping the EU even if they would like to leave.
Like the Scottish Referendum a lot could come down to the older voters. If their pensions are OK and are fedup with the EU there may be a large ‘old’ block vote to leave the EU. I am not sure what the demographics are at the moment?
I agree about Alex Salmond’s resignation. Nicola Sturgeon is clearly a different political generation to Salmond and was not bound by his pronouncements like that anyway.
And in addition with the changes that will happen next May here, if not UK wide, and a new Holyrood election will also feed into the sense of a new political generation. If we can get the voting age lowered as well that would be the icing on the generation cake.
Another waste of space EU in its currant form. We joined the Common Market NOT this expensive ( TWO EU Parliaments ) & there ever increasing Troughfers ( Fiscal & Political Union ) ma erse, anybody remember the ( Banana & Cucumber ledgislation ) do we need more daft laws, ( its like a office joke ) at our expence. Now the TTIP ledgislation, we dont need that either. Corperate America flecksing its muscles with larges ammounts of faviour / cash & we pay untimatatly the costs,as with the Cucumber / Banana whats next banning Tattie’s with EYES, as wee John Bercow would say The Eyes have it the Eyes have it.
ok tammy’on naewhere tae go.
gillie
What is with Dumfries and Galloway?
Strange that I asked the same question of my in laws after the referendum as they live there
They answered ” higher than average number of English people living here who have not yet changed to Scottish politics ”
like it or not it does answer both our questions. Living so close to border they dont feel the need to change. When they settle in the central belt and further afield they actually see that things would be better and therefore they change their politics.
The Labour-friendly elements of the press made much play yesterday of an Ipsos MORI poll which showed an unusually high level of support in the UK for remaining in the EU (while ignoring one by YouGov that showed a majority in favour of leaving).
Interesting that. It’s is even more interesting given the polling results that I heard last night on the SKY news paper review carried out by Populus in Rochester and Strood with reference to voting intentions in the up and coming by election.
Conservatives 30%
Labour 21%
Lib Dems 3%
There was another party mentioned in this poll result now if only I could remember who they were … S.N.P. nah I don’t think it was them … Greens nah it wasn’t them either … S.S.P. could have been but I don’t think so, mind you the letter “P” is in the right place now I come to think about it. GOT IT!. I’ve remembered. 😉
UKIP 43%
If UKIP win Rochester and Strood, as seems likely, then it can do nothing but add fuel to the fire that we have had burning throughout the referendum campaign that when our dear, dear friend and lover of all things Scottish, David Cameron holds his IN/OUT referendum then the result will be quite obvious for all to see … England votes OUT by quite a considerable margin that it will make no difference how Scotland, Wales and N.I. votes the U.K. WILL be leaving the E.U.
If the Tories win or have a coalition, the EU referendum is very likely. This would be at the back end of their term as they would want a lengthy debate. That means 2018 or 2019.
However given that lots of large companies are already uneasy about UK leaving the EU, I think this would be a major factor and would scare a lot of people into keeping the EU even if they would like to leave.
Like the Scottish Referendum a lot could come down to the older voters. If their pensions are OK and are fedup with the EU therewill surely be a large ‘old’ block vote to leave the EU.
Do we really want banks to move from London to Edinburgh? Without proper regulation and auditing by Scottish based accountants both answerable to our Parliament I wouldn’t touch them.
We need to change the heart of banking from customer and society abuse to service and probity. Honest businesses and people will be drawn to banks and countries with these shared values eventually.
The EU Referendum is an opportunity for Scotland to say to the EU what our terms are for remaining. It would also require us to have a separate currency from the rUK.
EU YES flags?
Ohhhhh the irony. 😀
Nice one Rev and couldn’t agree more.
Banf and Buchan, RAF with loads of retired military types from England. Dont mess.
“Oh the price of food will go up, travelling will be a nightmare, banks will move out, big business will flee to Ireland, Blaaa Blaaa Blaaaa, SOUND FAMILIAR”
The difference being – this time, they will be right.
@Michael McCabe 12.32 ah dont think she’ll question why a Wings banner is displayed ever again,& she,s that WEE ah ah hud tae talk doon tae her.
I would be happy with Scotland being a member of EFTA, especially with the EU/UK touting TTIP. I’m pro-European but the needs of Scotland must come first and our position on education and health has priority. I believe if Scotland became independent in 2017 then we shouldn’t be a member state of the EU unless our health and education policies are protected with opt-outs from future EU agreements.
@ Tom McAlister I have a small ( Borders ) farm, and it’s fascinating. The single farm payment and others are Euro based ( in fact because negotiated via London, the rate here is much poorer than it should be ) but the ” aye been ” effect here is similar to the Aberdeenshire farmers’ one, where I grew up.
Although successive Labour governments have generally been more generous to farming, inevitably they all vote Conservative ! In other words no change is necessary.
However this attitude is very unrewarding when compared to farming cooperatives on mainland Europe – just have a look for example at who supplies your Lurpak and other staples.
Dumfries and Galloway, full of Tory farmers and retired right-wing OAPs from Yorkshire.
@chalks- the point is it was WM that handed the North Sea fishing rights away to the EU in exchange for a rebate.
Fishing is irrelevant to the SE bubble.
Same with TTIP, an independent government can make a case to exclude areas from this.
We would be in a very strong position to make new deals within the EU over fishing etc and remember we have 25% of Europe’s renewable energy.
WM has never had any interest in protecting areas outwith the M25.
I remember years ago, the EU was offering grants to protect delicate environments and money was available to protect Mountains from corrosion, WM turned the money down, saying we don’t have any mountains – or words to that effect.
I really believe that we have a bunch of total chancers in at WM who only think of short term gain, hence the selling off of the UK end of euro-star.
They have to protect the City at all costs.
The need money invested in the city and they don’t care where it comes from, London is now the money laundering capital of the world.
Sorry meant to add, indyref 2 if rUK votes us out of EU.
“There is no reason why we can’t create legislation that works in tandem with other countries to enable freedom of movement etc,”
Apart from foreign policy not being devolved and the uk government being incapable of having a civil discussion with anyone?
I am thinking of ordering a European Flag, just to annoy the BritNats.
Careful now Luigi!
link to theguardian.com
i too am not to keen on the eu, but the chance for a second referendum to leave the uk should be taken. this does not mean that we cannot campaign afterwards for an exit from the eu by an iscotland.
we maintained a united front on keeping the queen for the sake of unity, but anyone who knows the people of scotland will know that if prince charles tried to assend the throne of an Iscotland, he would have found himself in trouble. this is why republicans were willing to tow the line regarding keeping the queen. its called politics folks
anti eu supporters in the indy movement should realise this and i believe they do, this is why the SDA kept such a low profile
@Dcanmore
Wonder how they’ll afford the second 4×4 on those farms and estates when the EU subsidies disappear? 🙂
Resistance fighters and terrible suffering in the last European war apart, and speaking for myself, I indentify completely with Europeans, their art and culture, more than I do Nordic countries, and certainly more than our USA cousins, no matter how much they admire the ‘old country.’
And when I see how well Spain, for example, used the money given by EU to build its infrastructure, every mountain village and finca getting piped Internet and electricity, and great roads where before were dirt tracks, schools everywhere, I can not see why anybody would want to remove the EU from their life, unless narrow-minded Little Englanders.
And then I take a trip around our hills and glens and see them left unproductive, bleak, empty terraces where once lay thriving villages, and through them run rivers still stocked with fish, trees with fruit, arable land fallow, places that once traded with European nations, red roof tiles and dark-eyed, dark hair people evidence of a mutually beneficial harmonious civilisation.
And I ask myself, why is it that 300 years of a Union has left my country no better than before, and the same now wants to bar our association and trade with the society of Europeans that we once welcomed here, and marvelled there?
Why should I condone that?
Why should I exclude people and their culture from my life?
Just watching Aljazzera & a very appt saying.
Dont touch my Broken Dreams or you might get CUT.
“anybody remember the ( Banana & Cucumber ledgislation ) ”
yup, that’s back when we believed the pish made up in the right wing press if I recall correctly.
Graun has top 20 Westminster troughers with nonsense on stilts George Galloway at No.2 pocketing over a quarter of a million this year. Can’t wait to see his new vote Naw thanks tour for the EU. He’ll go down as one UKOK’s biggest anti independence liars. What motivates dudes like Galloway?
Hard cash.
“David Cameron holds his IN/OUT referendum”
If things carry on like this , it’ll not be David Cameron holding his referendum from the chair as deputy prime minister.
@gillie: “What is with Dumfries and Galloway?”
ITV Border rather than STV
BBC North East & Cumbria rather than BBC Scotland
Appalling transport connectivity to the rest of Scotland
Substantial cross border employment and trade
Which results in large swathes of this region feeling culturally and geographically closer to England than to Scotland – sadly
I personally think an EU exit would be detrimental (e.g. rights, employment, mobility) for UK citizens.
It would be interesting to see the EU reaction. I’m sure there would be steps to ensure the UK got no EU benefits/access by the “back door”.
A UK exit may also, ironically, force the EU to slim down its administrative bureaucracy.
FM on Dumbledors Question Time tonight..
Okay I will give you Ireland and Denmark but even they were not heard above the clamour which was mostly a deadly silence. Where were the rest of them, France the Auld Alliance, or Germany who is supposed not to care for the Westminster Government. Not one big beast had a word to say, keeping quiet whilst we were battered by lies and finished off by deceit. I would not vote against staying in Europe, I believe right now it is the only thing which is saving us from the Norman overlords, and we would be worse off. Next time though I want to see some support and I want to see us demanding assistance. We cannot trust that crowd in Westminster, not one decent bone in their body.
difficult to plan the way forward from after the GE in may withouth knowing the result.
regardless of the outcome of the GE in the ruk, which is outwith our control, all of the possible outcomes (tory outright majority, hung parlaiment ,labour majority etc) lead to the same short term goal…….get as many indy candidates to wm in may as is possible.
my prefered outcome, 59 snp mps from scotland, tories with our without ukip with a majority but not outright requiring snp input
all powers except defense and foriegn affairs returned to scotland. the scottish mps to vote on remaining issues electronically from calton hill.
for this, the snp mps will sit on their hand when the bill to hold an eu referendum goes through the commons. it will also solve the EVEL question, and remove the issue of scots being subsidy junkies(???), ukip will love it.
this will still leave nicola the ability to plan her own manifesto for the 2016 holyrood election.
I feel quite embarrassed that I’ve moved to Dumfries and Galloway. Not only did the people here vote overwhelmingly to be run from London but want to leave the EU as well!
I’ve had very interesting discussions with people here about the referendum and EU membership. People have said they want to stay British but that they want immigration under control, the joke is that they (English people) here are Dumfries’s main immigrants and that they’ve also come to one of the least populated areas in the UK (I wonder why) but still think that we’re on the brink of being overcrowded by immigrants.
It’s also interesting to see how many people here buy the Telegraph,Express and Mail, probably most of their circulation in Scotland is from this area and I guess that’s where they get the immigration rhetoric from!
@liz
I’m well aware it’s westminsters fault, I wouldn’t believe in independence if I felt otherwise would I.
Not only is it Westminsters fault, but the EU must also come in for criticism, we don’t need some all encompassing parliament in Europe in order to have freedom of movement, nor do we require them to hold court over what laws are inhibited on us. Not one EU country publicly backed an indy Scotland, yet they rely on our fishing,renewables and oil/gas. Yes the EU has done some good, but why is there a need to have a parliament? Why not have separate legislation concerning agreements between each country on immigration etc etc? You can still have an exceptionally high level of co-operation between the countries, you don’t need a parliament.
It’s my belief that something like this would lead to greater communication and stronger ties being forged, instead of this looking at people with suspicion and allowing the right wing mentality to creep in.
You only have to look at the incumbents of the European Parliament to see the effects of the right wing mentality in action, this over-riding sovereignty over each member state plays completely into their hands. Would UKIP exist if there was no European Parliament yet European countries still worked together etc? Doubt it.
Not only that but the EU is hurtling toward a level of neo-liberalism that is a scale above what we know, which is saying something.
Would TTIP be happening if each member state retained their maximum sovereignty?
Doubt it.
MJack says:
23 October, 2014 at 2:13 pm
I feel quite embarrassed that I’ve moved to Dumfries and Galloway. Not only did the people here vote overwhelmingly to be run from London but want to leave the EU as well!
Aye, there were “No Thanks” signs everywhere a few weeks ago, last time I was down. I did spot a few “YES” signs in the towns and villages, so there are pockets of common sense, even in D&G.
Big business in the rUK should take a look at the boycott backlash that is going on in Scotland against those companies that stuck their neb into the debtae.
If we plan to make a UK wide EU referendum a platform for Indy2 then this would look like another example of practicing dependence on England.
If Westminster and the City of Greed want to stay in the EU, then they will fix the EU Ref to suit. Then the Indy plan has the rug pulled from under it.
Scotland needs to become self reliant in the Indy cause.
To get Independence, think independently.
To be Independent, act independently.
Hi All
@ Chris
Agree with you Chris, the Indy movement is a broad church and I welcome all lines of thinking however, as some other posters have articulated the EU showdown is a chance for us to reclaim soverignity if all the cards fall into place.
Once the independence bus has arrived at the station then the full spectrum of debate and discussion about what our new future should look like will take place and if this were now I would be angling along the following:
Queen as head of state until RIP, then transition to a Republic
Currently I would vote to leave the EU in its present form
I would vote for the upping of the minimum wage to a living wage or greater to stop the state subsidy of corporate low pay and reduce in work benefits which will be unsustainable over the long term
I’m sure many other posters have many other specific policy ideas but this was a cunning trap the BT-UKOK folks used to bog the debate down (‘Gives us your fifth fall-back currency plan, fully detailed’ – FFS!)
Onwards!
🙂
Rusty Shackleford says:
23 October, 2014 at 1:47 pm
I am thinking of ordering a European Flag, just to annoy the BritNats.
Careful now Luigi!
(Link to a Unionist newspaper removed)
____________________
Why do some people continue to help the unionist cause by
providing links to unionist newspapers?
By doing so you are encouraging people to visit their sites
and, therefore, helping their business to flourish.
These newspapers are the very same newspapers which have
constantly spread nothing but pro-union lies for decades.
These newspapers helped to destroy our vision and dreams
of a free and prosperous Scotland.
C’mon folks, please refrain from aiding and abetting them.
Jeeeeezo, talk about pissing against the wind.
Rusty, i never clicked on your link – for the reasons noted –
i’d much prefer to read your version of the article.
😉
anything for a laugh Ive signed
link to fazzledown.blogspot.co.uk
There are lots of pockets of common sense in D&G, remember that the Galloway and Upper Nithsdale constituency used to swing between Tory and SNP at General Elections, with SNP winning it a few times.
The east of the region, alongside the M74 is comparatively highly populated and is much more easily connected to Carlisle than to Dumfries, so when you do your shopping in England, work in England, access dental services in England, get referred to an English hospital, get all your TV and radio broadcast from England… is it any wonder that a sense of Scottish identity or connection is degraded?
I went to a couple of farming indyref events here. The cross border trade in agriculture is massive, upwards of 80% for many, and staying connected to their main market – England – rather than the EU is a priority for many farmers here.
To be completely honest, D&G needed more high impact support with regards to indyref, the local groups and individuals tried and at a very late stage we had visits from Sprit of Indy and from the Margo Mobile, but the likes of Yestival barely touched D&G, D&G was the last area of Scotland that Business for Scotland established a group, Nicola paid one flying visit that only Yes people knew about, Alex Salmond paid a very quick flying visit on the last weekend that was top secret until his helicopter landed, again only the Yes group knew about it. Alex gave a speech in Carlisle to Carlisle businesses but never spoke here.
This was the region most likely to be most affected by independence because of cross border issues. It was patently wrong that in a referendum where every vote counted as equal D&G was not more of a priority for indyref activities.
Rory the Tory made it a priority, who else did? Perhaps therein lies the problem…
chalks says:
23 October, 2014 at 12:47 pm
Doug, I think I’d vote to leave it.
TTIP and fishing/farming are big deals up here.
New Zealand isn’t in the EU and it’s farming industry does very well.
============================================
Don’t forget that NZ has TPP the pacific counterpart of TTIP. £17 to see your Doctor, £2000 for colonoscopy, £50 for one xray etc. I know this because my mate and his wife emigrated 2 years ago. Their ages are 60 and 55 relative good health and medical insurance for them would have been £250 per month.
I am no lover of the EU but if it gets me independence I will vote to stay in the EU.
indigo says:
23 October, 2014 at 2:02 pm
@gillie: “What is with Dumfries and Galloway?”
ITV Border rather than STV
BBC North East & Cumbria rather than BBC Scotland
Appalling transport connectivity to the rest of Scotland
Substantial cross border employment and trade
Which results in large swathes of this region feeling
culturally and geographically closer to England than to Scotland – sadly
_______________________
May i also add – Housing Associations.
All over the Borders region, so called Scottish Housing Ass’
are giving a large number of their properties to English folk
from just across the border in places like Newcastle etc.
Nothing untoward about any of this, at least i don’t think so,
people opt to join these Associations and can then immediately,
upon application being accepted, start applying for housing.
This has contributed to the very large number of English folk
living in the Scottish Borders region – ironically, for a better
lifestyle but not an independent Scotland.
@James Caithness
Difference is though, that they signed up to it, the people of Scotland and their MEP’s don’t have the same rights.
Nor does any country in the EU for that matter, what the EU says, goes. See TTIP.No opt outs on it.
New Zealand had an opt out.
People should remember that farming and fishing in iscotland and Europe would be so much better than it has been as part of the UK. Don’t judge Scottish policy in a European context with the failed selfish policies of Westminster…;-)
Six weeks ago the people of Scotland were threatened that a YES vote would lose them their membership of the EU, whereas we would be secure in our membership by voting NO. As with so many other issues, the situation seems to be the reverse of whatever the NO camp said some weeks ago. We have more oil than they said; the man who told us has now been given permission to frack under our houses without our permission. We have better technology for extracting the know reserves and the supply will last 3 times as long as it was going to last only 6 weeks ago – that rate we’ll have an infinite supply by Christmas 2015. The NHS was safer in within the UK but its demise was top of the Labour conference agenda. Now it is our EU membership. However, what amazes me is the number of NO voters who are still posting about Wee Eck, Alec Slamond (sic) and the fishy pair and all their lies. What is it going to take to waken up everyone to the reality that surrounds us?
gillie and Indigo. D&G have probably the highest proportion of English residents in Scotland. A lot of them tend to be retired or ex forces types. They’re very nice people by and large but do have slightly odd attitudes by Scottish standards: a bit on the right wing side. The ‘Scottish’ population tends to be rural, agricultural and a bit ‘righty’ as well
@Ronnie Anderson 12.32, Great photo Ronnie, unfortunately she’s my MP also. You must have upset her that day cos she had photos on her twitter page of a WOS banner, under the tag vile wings over Scotland. I couldn’t let that go, so I emailed her asking what she had against ” freedom of political expression”. She replied next day with some carefully photoshop examples of abuse, saying that language had no place in politics….. I mailed back to agree but surely the trend was set by labour MPs comparing our First Minister with every despot from Kim Jong il to Mugabe! Now I email her every week but the replies have dried up! 🙂
It would be a result,if an EU vote forced a Scottish referendum, but Cameron in my opinion, (Farage aside) is threatening to leave the EU, in order to claw back more power, for Westminster.
Barman in Chichester hotel just told my wife he will have to check with his boss if he can accept an RBS £1 note.
She responded he had “insulted her and Scotland,” and to “get a grip!”
All of the English people that I know, in the Howe of Fife, voted No in the Referendum. I also know that most of them will vote to exit the EU (immigration being the reason. Yes really!)
I did have a conversation with a long time English ” friend” the other day who says she doesn’t support anything that the YES parties advocate and will always shop at Asda. I asked if she enjoyed having a low council tax that was at least frozen, free prescriptions etc and she agreed that she did. My parting shot was that in the next referendum on Independence only those born and living in Scotland would get the vote!
She said that Scotland wouldn’t dare do that! Really!
Flower of Scotland says:
23 October, 2014 at 3:10 pm
She said that Scotland wouldn’t dare do that! Really!
_____________________
Nice parting shot, i like your style, had me laughing.
🙂
If the UK votes to come out of Europe but Scotland votes to stay in, the question arises of how long it would take the UK to leave. I cannot see it happening overnight and I would think it would take at least a year – possibly more. So would this be long enough for Scotland to hold another independence referendum and, if there was a Yes vote, become independent in time to not leave the EU? What we would not want to have to do would be leave (as part of the UK) and then apply to rejoin (as an independent nation).
Following a vote for the UK to leave Europe, the Westminster government would do all it could to prevent a second independence referendum taking place – there would be no Edinburgh Agreement Mk II. Westminster would simply drag their feet, we will be taken out of Europe against our will and then it will be a fete a complet.
By the time of the Scottish general election in 2016, we will know whether the EU in/out referendum is going to happen. If it is, then the SNP and other Yes supporting parties will need to campaign on a manifesto of holding another Scottish referendum if the EU referendum produces different results in Scotland and rUK. Assuming a majority for Yes supporting parties who have included this in their manifestos in the Scottish parliament, it would be more difficult for Westminster to deny us another referendum, although I am sure they would still try.
Make no mistake, the Tories and UKIP will happily take us out of Europe against our will and still deny us the opportunity to do anything about it. We need to think through all the possible permutations of election results, referendum results and Smith Commission outcomes (Ha!) and anticipate the reactions of our opponents. We need to pre-empt their tactics and use the one powerful weapon at our disposal – the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people.
One thing going for us is that we can rely on the unionist parties to continue to let Scotland down. I am convinced that the devo proposals will amount to nothing of substance, I expect us to be punished for having posed an existential threat to the UK and I expect more austerity. Although the unionists will cause a great deal of suffering in Scotland, the more they act against us, the more we should be able to persuade people to vote Yes the next time round, whenever that is. I hesitate to say “it will be a price worth paying”, but we must make sure we capitalise on their failures on more powers and their revenge on Scottish people.
Agree with everything that has been said about Dumfries & Galloway – influx of English, lack of infrastructure and connectivity to the rest of Scotland etc. But it has to be said, that this lack of identity with the rest of Scotland is deeply-embedded and historical. If the many poorer people had voted Yes along with their peers in Glasgow and North Lanarkshire then it might have tipped the vote towards Yes. However, there is a surly resentment and suspicion of the central belt and very little connection.
It is true that the experience of the Yes campaign here was different to that of the central belt. Everyone here in the campaign worked so hard and seemed so upbeat about the response, influenced perhaps by the euphoria of the central belt experience and I kept thinking I must just be picking up the wrong vibes when out canvassing. Sadly, when the result came in, my feelings were vindicated.
We should probably also write to our favourite MEPs telling them why we do not like TTIP. I want my government to decide what is and is not put up for bids based on consultation with the electorate not corporations. Anything else is undemocratic and a breach of my human rights. I also hear that the tribunal will be secret. This is absolutely unacceptable in a democratic society.
Flower of Scotland @ 3.10pm
ffs what is it with the nicey nicey??
I’d have told the stupid old bitch to do the rest of us a favour and just hurry up and die.
@ Grousebeater
Me to , I don’t like their tone one bit . Cheeky Barstuard , the lot o them .
Did anyone see the video that was doing the rounds , of the Scottish guy changing money and he only got £92.50 for £100 Scottish money
BOE money all say Pounds
All others RBS , Clydesdale etc etc all say Pounds Sterling .
I don’t suppose any ” heaven weights ” on here can explain the difference ?
@chalks:
Your point is perfectly sound. You could add that as a ‘new’ EU-member, Scotland would certainly have to adopt Euro as currency.
There is certainly a lot of advantages to broker a special status within Europe, which is dominated by right-winged parties. It’s not an easy decision.
“You could add that as a ‘new’ EU-member, Scotland would certainly have to adopt Euro as currency.”
Except, as has been pointed out numerous times in these pages, this is not the case.
Michael Connarty labour MP for Falkirk East on radio scotlandshire just now arguing for control over fracking licenses to be given to Scotland.
I give up. What a joke!
European flag wavers – don’t forgeet to add a Scottish star to your flags – or maybe a thistle.
Dcanmore says:
I agree, I have always said EFTA would be my fav route.
More control over our own, more Democracy.
Can we stop tarring all English Scots with the same brush? I was brought up in England, but I slogged my guts out for a Yes vote. As Stanley Odd sang, “It’s not about where you were born or who you call kin”; it’s about building a fairer society for everyone living here. (By the way, I was born in Ghana, but no one in their right mind would call me Ghanaian – I haven’t lived there since I was two!)
Plus I think we should stay in the EU.
@Graeme Doig – Labour don’t do joined up thinking.
Re the Scottish surfers going independent – maybe that’s what will happen over the coming years where slowly folk declare their own wee independent groups.
What currency wouldScotland adopt?
Clearly this is an opportunity that has a chance of appearing on the horizon in 2017, but I have to say I agree with posters who say the MSM will throw itself into reverse and try to browbeat the “Great British Public” into staying in the EU.
That said, it is possible they’ve let the Euro-sausage and straight banana stories seep too deep into the English psyche. On most of my recent visits south of the border I continually encountered casual racism, fierce resentment and sometimes vicious hatred of EU immigrants, Brussels and Strasbourg (we’ll leave “Muzzlims” and “Shareea lawr” for another discussion). Funnily enough, while talking to a fellow about TTIP he was aghast – Euro-privatisation of the NHS!!! – and then crestfallen and bewildered when I pointed out UKIP and the Tories, the great champions of ordinary people against creeping “Euroism” (his word!) were rolling over to this. Disappointingly he concluded “Might as well vote BNP then and be done wiv it.”
A lot, of course, would depend on the framing of the question. Perhaps we could lobby for:
“Should the United Kingdom be an independent country?”
I, for one, would be happily putting my cross beside ‘No Thanks’.
Re. Dfs and G: I’m a Doonhamer and I’m afraid the influx of English there and in the Border region is a problem long term for Scottish Independence. Most are ‘white flighters’…people who want to escape ‘immigrants’ in big cities in England, but don’t see the irony that they represent the same issue to the depopulated and elderly areas involved.
Many have made money from inflated house prices in the south from modest properties enabling them to buy better and bigger properties up here. Take a drive into many of Scotland’s hinterland and you will hear nothing but English accents.
This inward immigration has trebled in three decades, ironically since Thatcher, and it is eroding the indigenous culture and identity. The problem is not race but identity and culture. These people see our country as an extension of England, ‘Scotlandshire’ ,and actually view our self determination as insulting and a threat. They believe that they own us. It also explains the large English vote for the SNP in some areas due to self interest, which showed itself in a paradoxical No vote amongst the same population (estimated 72%= circa 280,000 votes).
Their numbers will continue to grow as young Scots leave because of lack of work and slowly the chances of Independence will diminish. Unlike almost every other nationality, the majority of these immigrants will not identify as Scots. The reason being three hundred years of tacit imperial teaching that England is synonymous with Britain.
Dumfries and Galloway is served worse due to Central Belt indifference and blanket msm coverage from England. And by the way this demographic is middle aged/elderly and wealthy…two of the characteristics ascribe to ‘NO’ voters..I would add a colonial mind set to this as the main stumbling block to them ever supporting Scotland’s freedom from Mother England.
The £ has fallen against the Euro. Before the US/UK banking crash. £ = 1.40 euros.
Now the £ = 1.25Euros. The US and have more debt than any European country.
To cut red tape and expense for business join the Euro.Scotland could only join the Euro without taking UK debt, which Westminster refuses to pay down.
Scotland has most in common with Europe. Socialist. The Scottish economy out performs the rest of the UK, even without the Oil sector. Scotland would boom if it was Independent. Westminster control holds it back.
The fishermen over-fished the Seas. A Scottish Gov would have to support Conservation.
The majority of the English people in Scotland will not support Independence but will vote SNP.
Get over it. It’s irrelevant.
I only have regular contact with three english born folks living in scotland… all voted yes. Let’s not be making assumptions, the problems in the south are more about backgrounds and mindset than point of origin.
No doubt the EU has many flaws and TTIP MUST be opposed. However, the EU is also the only guarantee of our civil rights we have left, because Westminster is dismantling them at an alarming pace. I believe David Cameron wants to get out of the EU asap so he can continue his proto-fascist machinations – Justice and Security Act 2013, anyone? He wants to scrap the Human Rights Act, so those hit by our lovely “anti-terrorism” arrangements cannot go and tattle in Strasbourg. He has already said that he wouldn’t mind leaving the EU, because he care “a thousand times more” about the beloved UK! He is quite happy if he can let UKIP plough ahead, because then he’ll have someone to blame for the inevitable consequences.
@Helena Brown says: 23 October, 2014 at 12:53 pm:
“I am not and never will describe myself as British”</i
That's daft, Helena. Whether you like it or not you are every bit as British as any other resident in the British Isles. You're sucking up The Westminster Establishment's idiotic propaganda. The United Kingdom keeps pushing that stupid mantra that only the United Kingdom is British and all other British residents are not.
Scotland, Wales, N.I, Jersey, Guernsey, Man and the Republic of Ireland are every bit part of Britain as the country England masquerading as the United Kingdom and telling us all we will cease to be British if we leave them to wither on the vine, (which England most certainly will do if the rest of the United Kingdom countries they have abused for centuries leave them to their own devices.
Of all the UK countries the one least able to exist on its own resources is England. England, is a net importer of food, water, power, fuel and PEOPLE. The only thing she has too much of is Englanders and immigrants.
They have stolen everything else from us – don't let them steal your ownership of part of the British Isles.
As far as I am aware, the EU is sick to the back teeth of the UK. So I am a bit miffed that the EU did not intervene a little in our referendum to even the balance. We aspire to stay in the union and we got nothing for our loyalty. I understand that many states in the EU fear separatism, especially Italy, Spain, France… But the EU allowed several outrages agains the democratic mechanism go unchallenged, especially the media bias. I think it should be EU policy to support a fair media. They would be quick enough to condemn Belarus — and I honestly believe our media has sunk to the lows of such backward nations in terms of having a worse than third-world media.
A lot of people on here like to pass comments on other peoples posts trying to tell us how we should think and criticing any thing that they don’t agree with , well we are all entitled to our own views Thank you very much it is what is called independence
@john king says: 23 October, 2014 at 1:13 pm:
“What about Ireland? they gave us support.”
So did Wales and, (Ahem!), parts of Spain, and for all we know others that our wonderful media stopped us from knowing about.
The truth about the mainland that is really, “Great Britain”, goes there are few parts that do not already feel a bit out with the United Kingdom. Devon people feel they are different and to a lesser extent, Cornwall. Wales has a fair independence movement. Yorkshire, Geordies and other parts of the North of England also feel different.
Look at the protests that the media are not telling the World about going on in the heart of London. Why do you imagine London bought in water Cannon? Large areas of the English Midlands do not even feel English. The UK is on the point of breaking up and it is all due to the City State of London. Note, though, that there are many, many Londoners that rank among the poorest and put down people in the United Kingdom.
Note too that part of Ireland is already free, Scotland is close and the three Crown Protectorates are out of the London Loop. Stand back and look in and you will see a seething mass of discontent aimed at London. There are protesting people being manhandled out of parts of London as we speak. Why do you imagine London bought water cannons?
It’s a bit like a guy Fox night fireworks display and someone somewhere is standing with a match near the blue touch paper. When the first squib goes Bang! there could well be a chain reaction.
Ironically the Yougov poll was reported by Catherine MacLeod of the Herald of all people, but only in terms of the overall UK results showing 36% remain in EU, 42% leave EU. I nicely helped her out by looking at the data table and extracting and calculating the following:
Scotland – 54% remain in EU, only 29% leave.
RUK excluding Scotland – 34% remain, 43% leave.
This article on SCFF is worth a read:
link to scottishconstitutionalfutures.org
“In conclusion, a British exit from the EU risks undermining the very self-determination and national sovereignty that its adherents believe it will bring about. This is because it risks shattering the fragile balance and stability of the UK by threatening the peace settlement in Northern Ireland and raises the possibility of a further independence referendum in Scotland.”
The reason for the referendum is that much of EU law and Human Rights is written in to the devolved Government’s legislation.
The EU Parliament applauded the Scottish MEP. They ridicule Fradge. Many of the leaders of the EU countries made statements supporting Scotland. A McAllister is second in command to Merkel. The Auld Alliance. Spanish foreign Minister wrote a letter stating that Catalonia was a different case to Scottish EU membership.
“what is it with Dumfries & Galloway?”
A history of flirting with Fascism?
@chalks says: 23 October, 2014 at 2:22 pm:
“I’m well aware it’s westminsters fault, I wouldn’t believe in independence if I felt otherwise would I.”
Well you got that bit right.
“Not only is it Westminster’s fault, but the EU must also come in for criticism, we don’t need some all encompassing parliament in Europe in order to have freedom of movement,”
Don’t you? Well, Chalks, What else do you call, “The Schengen Agreement”?
The Schengen Area comprising 26 European countries that have abolished passport and border control. Twenty-two of the twenty-eight EU member states participate in the Schengen Area. Of the six EU members that do not form part of the Schengen Area, four – Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania – are legally obliged and wish to join the area, while the other two – Ireland and the United Kingdom – maintain opt-outs. All four European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member states – Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland – have signed the Schengen Agreement, even though they are outside the EU. In addition it includes three European microstates – Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican.”
As for the rest of your claims. If Scotland remains a member of the EU, and the legal truth is that Scots are EU Citizens and cannot be thrown out, the EU had to NOT take sides in internal member state disputes. (BTW: European Commissioners are NOT EU MEPs, they are EU Civil Servants). The obvious EU stance upon the bipartite UK disuniting is to tell both parties they remain members but must renegotiate terms and thus the EU retains both parties. The reason being the EU has no way to expel citizens. Such organisations are in the business of signing up members NOT making enemies of them. As are such as NATO and the UN.
You’ve been absorbing far too much Establishment propaganda.
@Proud Cybernat says:23 October, 2014 at 2:27 pm:
“Big business in the rUK should take a look at the boycott backlash that is going on in Scotland against those companies that stuck their neb into the debtae”.
Tesco shares down another 6.5% today. That’s underlying profits 47% on last year and the chairman, Sir Richard Broadbent thrown out.
Someone asked ‘what is it with Dumfries and Galloway?’ Well, for one thing it is well stocked with retired wealthy incomers from England and to a lesser extent from the Scottish Central Belt. A lot of these are ultra conservative, have moved here for the peace and quiet, low property prices and ‘unspoiled countryside’. They tend to take over local community councils and rail against development generally and renewable energy in particular. There is another group who move here for the low rents available, many of these coming from NE and NW England.
I think anti EU sentiment may well be quite strong in both groups. Rural locals in Dumfriesshire feel quite close to Carlisle, this sentiment less strong in Galloway.
Col the Viking says: 23 October, 2014 at 2:34 pm:
” … the Indy movement is a broad church and I welcome all lines of thinking however, as some other posters have articulated the EU showdown is a chance for us to reclaim soverignity if all the cards fall into place.
Once the independence bus has arrived at the station then the full spectrum of debate and discussion about what our new future should look like will take place and if this were now …
“On résiste à l’invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l’invasion des idées”.
Literal translation: – “One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas”.
by Victor Hugo
“Nothing, (except a budgie wi nae teeth) can succeed like an idea whose time has come.”
bi Auld Bob Peffers.(that’s me).
@AuldA says:23 October, 2014 at 4:35 pm:
“Your point is perfectly sound. You could add that as a ‘new’ EU-member, Scotland would certainly have to adopt Euro as currency.<i?"
Absolute balderdash! There is no way ANY EU Country, “would have to join the Euro”. In the first place EU rules are that a member states currency must shadow the Euro for some years, (3 years I think). In the second place other EU countries that have been member states since day one of the EU have not adopted the Euro.
There are twelve currencies of the European Union as of 2014, the principal currency being the Euro. The Euro is used by 18 of the 28 member states. Denmark and the United Kingdom, have a legal opt-out and have retained the right to operate independent currencies within the EU. The remaining eight states are supposed to be obliged to join the ERM II and attain the third stage and adopt the Euro eventually. However, Sweden, (for example), does not use the Euro but has been a member of the EU since day one but has made no efforts to move on in the ERM.
@Robert
So efta countries not represented in the EP can agree legislation with other countries….so you arent exactly understanding my point are you? There is no need for a Parliament, the countries can have agreements, they do not need an all encompassing parliament, or do ireland and the usa have a parluament together?as they both operate special benefits,immigration for irish workers in the us and vice versa.
I dont understand your next point, you do realise the uk is the member state, not Scotland. Uk votes to leave, so does Scotland. It matters not one iota if we vote to stay in, we are not a country, westminster is the sovereign parly.Scotland WOULD have voted to leave, as the eu does not recognise Scotland as a country. It recognises the UK.Scotland is a region.
Lastly, your point on the eu commission?Again, dont think you understand, any one nenber state sympathetic to scots indy, could have asked the parly,commission or council what would happen in the event of a yes. They did not.
@Robert
Are you happy that the EP is full of right wing nutjobs and that the turnout for euro elections are shockingly low across europe, what does that tell you about it?
@Natasha says:23 October, 2014 at 5:05 pm:
“Can we stop tarring all English Scots with the same brush?”
You think that’s bad, Natasha? You get it easy. We old folk get slagged off all the time on here. I’ve been fighting for Scottish Independence since I was a boy in 1946, but no, according to some numpties on here, it’s all the fault of we old folks.
@bookie from hell says: 23 October, 2014 at 5:19 pm:
“What currency wouldScotland adopt?”
Her own currency of course. The same one she signed up to in 1706/7 – It is called the Pound Sterling and Scotland had been using it since at least 1328 when King Robert Bruce paid the English £100,000 pound Sterling as settlement of the Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty.
The terms of that treaty stipulated, in exchange for £100,000 sterling, the English Crown would recognise: –
The Kingdom of Scotland as fully independent;
Robert the Bruce, and his heirs and successors, as the rightful rulers;
The border between Scotland and England as that recognised under the reign of Alexander III (1249-1286).
Why are you accepting the Westminster Establishment’s lies & propaganda? Please bear these indisputable facts in mind.
The United Kingdom is a bipartite union there are only two signatories and they are KINGDOMS not countries. As a bipartite union – when one partner leaves the Union Disunites.
The Pound does not belong ONLY to one partner and the Three country Kingdom of England is the other partner NOT The United Kingdom.
Kenny says: 23 October, 2014 at 7:25 pm:
As far as I am aware, the EU is sick to the back teeth of the UK. So I am a bit miffed that the EU did not intervene a little in our referendum to even the balance.
Why do you absorb the Establishments propaganda so readily, Kenny? Get a grip and listen to good common sense and logic. The first of which is that the EU, (European Union), is an elected body. The EC, (European Commission), is the paid Civil Servants of the EU. In other words those Commissioners DO NOT make decisions – they, (The EC), only administer the decisions of the EU.
Next thing is that the EU cannot take sides in an internal dispute between two parts of a bipartite United Kingdom. Now look at things from the EU members Point of View. The title United Kingdom’s second word is, “KINGDOM” it is not country. They know that a bipartite union disunites when one partner leaves and that means there are two KINGDOMS with their existing citizens also EU citizens and the EU has no rules or mechanisms to expel any citizens.
Now consider the whole raison d’être of international organisations, such as the EU, NATO and the UN, is to gather as many like minded member states together for the common good . Now ask yourself this simple question – “Why would such an organization chose to take either side in an internal matter between two parts of a former state when the obvious solution was to tellBOTH sides they remain successor state and continued members but both must renegotiate their conditions. They thus retain both parts and not make an enemy of one part.
Why, for example would either NATO or the UN throw out Scotland and retain England and thus lose access to the strategically vital North Atlantic Gap that lies within Scotland’s territorial/continental shelf waters. Why would the EU choose to lose 25% of the EUs renewable resources and the EU’s largest Oil & Gas reserves plus access to the best EU fishing grounds?
Now which are you gong to believe common sense and logic or Westminster Establishment scare stories and propaganda that makes no sense whatsoever?
@Blair paterson says: 23 October, 2014 at 7:28 pm:
“A lot of people on here like to pass comments on other peoples posts trying to tell us how we should think and criticing any thing that they don’t agree with , well we are all entitled to our own views Thank you very much it is what is called independence”
Rubbish! Have a though what you have just claimed on a comments site that is dedicated to“debate”.
Furthermore, there is all the difference in the World in correcting a load of old cobblers awls with the facts, or explaining the unsound logic with reasoned arguments. These are a far cry from shouting down opinions.
Opinions are just that, opinions. If you haven’t twigged yet that logic and facts are more than opinions then it is time you did.
Great article but I don’t think England will vote to leave the EU. The msm will change and big business will lobby to stay therefore coverage will be full of scare stories. The middle class will vote to stay. They are most resistant to change.
@Robert, you need to calm down, I think someone asking the currency question was taking the pish…
No one is believing the Establishment crap, for you to think otherwise of people on here is pretty insulting.
Not everyone views the EU well, it’s well on it way to creating one massive state that favours corporations over the rights of sovereign governments and their people.
That is the future, corporations running things and the EU looks like it is a mechanism for that change.
We’ve let the right wing in this country steal the argument against the EU.
Lastly, you argue that the EU cannot take sides, well, from where I am sitting, it very clearly did. Barroso ring any bells?
He was a civil servant as you say, yet spoke out against independence, I thought he was supposed to be impartial according to your mantra?
[…] The Labour-friendly elements of the press made much play yesterday of an Ipsos MORI poll which showed an unusually high level of support in the UK for remaining in the EU (while ignoring one by YouGov that showed a majority in favour of leaving). […]
Why does anyone want to stay in the EU? It is undemocratic, its euro is strangling even the strongest economy, its TTIP would strip us of our NHS. Under TTIP, which Salmond and Sturgeon have both praised, all areas of public interest would be subject to compulsory free trade, liberalisation, deregulation and privatisation – agriculture, financial services, health, education, energy, food, health and safety standards, communications, culture, all public utilities, local government services, and ‘buy local’ procurement policies. These rules would subject all our services, including the NHS, to private corporate rule. Lord Livingston, no, not Ken, the Trade and Investment Minister, admitted that the NHS was not exempt from TTIP. Tariffs are ‘already quite low’, as the US trade representative admitted. The goal is not tariff cuts, but ending trade union rights, food safety standards, environmental standards and product safety rules. And you want to vote to stay in this bureaucratic, destructive, capitalist cartel?
@Will Podmore:
While I agree that the TTIP is indeed a way for great corporations to encroach on state matters, there are some incorrect facts in your message:
It is undemocratic
That’s the UKIP or French Front national stance. EU is partially democratic. There is a parliament elected by a direct voting process. Decisions are taken by bodies of ministers, themselves elected at the national level. Only the commission can be more or less deemed non-democratic. But, even if you don’t wish it, Scotland is economically, politically and culturally tied to Europe.
its euro is strangling even the strongest economy
I strongly disagree. The problem is not with the Euro as a currency, which is, on the contrary, the best thing that happened in Europe since Europe began. It’s the way the Germans impose their economic views on the European central bank and on the other countries. But that will not endure infinitely. They themselves begin to feel the dreadful consequences of their folly.
TTIP would strip us of our NHS
That I would like you to elaborate on. I don’t see how TTIP can impact social security systems. If TTIP enters NHS, that’s only because the British government allows and condones it.
The goal is not tariff cuts, but ending trade union rights, food safety standards, environmental standards and product safety rules.
I’m not sure for trade unions, but I share you position on the other points.